September 3, 2025 • 30 mins
Lizz has entered what feels like a parallel universe. Her mom is no longer Sandy Melgar, or Nana, but The Defendant - accused of first-degree murder. As the wheels of justice slowly grind on, they prepare for trial.
Host: Maggie Robinson Katz
Producer: Maggie Latham
Script consultant: Emma Weatherill
Sound designer: Tom Brignell
Production support from Dan Marchini, Elaina Boateng and Mabel Finnegan-Wright
Managing Executive Producer (iHeart): Cristina Everett
Executive Producer (BBC Studios): Joe Kent
Hands Tied is a BBC Studios Audio production for iHeartPodcasts
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
BBCD.
Speaker 2 (00:06):
Hey, I'm Maggie. Just a quick heads up before we start.
The series does contain some descriptions of violence and deals
with adult themes. How many tattoos do you have a lot?
Speaker 3 (00:26):
I have a physics equation tramp stamp.
Speaker 4 (00:29):
I thought that would be funny, funny. I love a
physics tramp stapp. High brow lowbrow.
Speaker 2 (00:37):
Is my love language, and that is the epitome of
hy braw lowbrow.
Speaker 3 (00:42):
That would be kind of ironic.
Speaker 2 (00:44):
So what's the physics equations?
Speaker 3 (00:47):
The Dirac equation. It kind of brings like quantum physics
and relativity together. It just like explains everything, and it
kind of talks about like dark matter and I don't
know antimatter. I can't even remember. It's been so long.
Speaker 2 (01:04):
I'm sitting next to Liz on her oversized, well loved
teal colored couch in London, nodding my head, pretending I
know exactly what the Dorac equation is. I have no
idea what the Dorac equation is.
Speaker 5 (01:19):
I love.
Speaker 2 (01:19):
Liz starts to roll up her sleeve, showing me her
other tattoos, her mood changing as she does.
Speaker 4 (01:26):
This is beautiful.
Speaker 3 (01:28):
It's just got touched up. But most of this was
done by a Mexican toutoo artist, and it's hard to see.
Speaker 2 (01:37):
Liz pivots her body further, lifting the fabric up and
revealing a kaleidoscope of colorful flowers inked on her arm.
Speaker 1 (01:46):
So there was like a rose up here for their
last name.
Speaker 2 (01:49):
She's now Liz Melgar Rose, taking the name Rose from
her husband Anthony. And there are others, each flower representing
a different member of her family.
Speaker 6 (02:02):
And then these.
Speaker 3 (02:03):
Are for my parents and stergazer Lily's. This is my
mom's birth flower. This is the sacred mind flower.
Speaker 2 (02:12):
This one, yeah, a deep purple aster with its brilliant
yellow center. There's a violet a sunflower.
Speaker 3 (02:23):
This is my daughter's birth flower.
Speaker 4 (02:26):
My son's a chrysanthemum.
Speaker 3 (02:29):
And the poppies are my dad's. And then this is
a simplest cheese or a miracle and those are used
young Day of the Dead. So that's like me wearing
my altar all the time.
Speaker 2 (02:45):
Her tattoos her altar are not just devotions to her dad,
but to their shared my inheritage. Something she says, Jim
was deeply proud of having grown up in Guatemala.
Speaker 3 (02:58):
When I was a kid, He was always trying to
teach me about our culture and tell me I should
be proud of where we've come from, and you know
that we've come from nothing and look at where we are.
And I really didn't appreciate it at the time. I
really didn't. I was just oh, my god, Okay, I
get it. I've heard the story a hundred times.
Speaker 4 (03:19):
What would he tell you about living in Guatemala.
Speaker 3 (03:22):
He would just talk about like the absolute poverty. He
would always tell me that, you know, you don't know
how good you have it or how lucky you are.
My grandmother she used to live in like straw and
mud houses that they would have to rebuild every year.
Her first language was a Mayan dialect called Kikichi, and
then she learned Spanish later on once she got older.
(03:45):
But they were very, very poor. So when I was six,
we went for six weeks and I remember that trip vividly.
Speaker 4 (03:55):
Yeah, tell me about it.
Speaker 3 (03:57):
Yeah, I mean, we get there and in the middle
of the courtyard there's like this shit and that's where
everyone showers. But you know, I was like, there's no
hot water. How am I going to take a bath?
So my grandma got like one of those metal clothes,
washing bins, and heated hot water on the stove so
(04:18):
I could have a warm bath. And my dad said
that as soon as we got there, I said, there's
nothing cool to drink. I'm ready to go home.
Speaker 2 (04:28):
I mean understandable. I think I would feel the same
way at age six. But as Liz gets older, her
interest in her indigenous roots continued to grow, and after
her dad's murder, that interest becomes a passion.
Speaker 3 (04:46):
I guess I'm trying to get to know the culture
because I don't know. I guess it makes me feel
more connected to my dad and my family.
Speaker 2 (04:58):
Liz is planning another test you to honor her kek
Chi spirit.
Speaker 4 (05:04):
Do you know what you're going to get? Just a
red band on your wrist?
Speaker 7 (05:07):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (05:08):
Cool. It's supposed to signify the blood that's been shed
from the genocide of the Mayan people.
Speaker 2 (05:18):
A symbol to mark the oppression of the mind people,
which is no doubt an incredibly heavy thing to have
inked on your body. But this red band also symbolizes
a message of resilience and survival against acts of cruelty,
And if you've been through what Liz has, I can
see why this message would resonate so deeply. She's already
(05:41):
lost one parent, and to rewind back to the summer
of twenty fourteen, she feels like she's about to lose another.
It's been eighteen months since Jim's death. Liz is at
the new home she shares with her mom and husband,
a high of flyers from various lawyers in her hands,
(06:03):
all offering to represent Sandy.
Speaker 4 (06:06):
I can't imagine what Liz is feeling.
Speaker 2 (06:09):
She's trying to come to terms with the loss of
her dad and now this all while just becoming a
mother herself.
Speaker 3 (06:17):
I just had my daughter, so I was kind of
all over the place.
Speaker 2 (06:23):
Liz is likely sleep deprived adjusting to her new life
as a mom. Maybe this is all a mistake. Could
this really be happening. She keeps checking the records on
the district attorney's website.
Speaker 3 (06:35):
Clearing the page and then searching for her name, like
this has to be a mistake, and like doing the
search a couple of different ways just to be sure
that I had the right information.
Speaker 4 (06:46):
But it's no mistake.
Speaker 2 (06:48):
Sandy had been indicted for Jim's murder, and right now
Liz is going to need every fiber of her keck
che Warrior Spirit to keep her mom out of jail.
I'm Maggie Robinson Katz and from BBC Studios and iHeart Podcasts.
(07:10):
This is Hands Tied Episode five Warrior Spirit. Liz has
entered what feels like a parallel universe. Her mom is
no longer Sandy Melgar, but the defendant accused of first
(07:32):
degree murder and things are about to get even worse.
Speaker 3 (07:39):
We all served to Houston together so that she could
turn herself in and be processed. My mom was in tears,
and she's never been rested before, She's never gotten in trouble.
I was terrifying for her.
Speaker 2 (07:55):
At nine am on July twenty ninth, twenty fourteen, in Houston, Texas,
Sandy is arrested and the formal indictment is read out.
Sandra Melgar is accused of unlawfully, intentionally and knowingly causing
the death of I may by and I quote, stabbing
the complainant with the deadly weapon, namely a knife. Sandy
(08:19):
is granted bail.
Speaker 3 (08:21):
You don't know what's going to happen. You don't know
how to prepare for that. There is no one you
can really talk to you because not everybody goes through that.
You know, it's very isolating, it's very it's it's hard.
Speaker 2 (08:33):
I think we all have expectations of how justice moves
from what we've seen on movies or on TV. You're indicted,
then it's straight to court. But the truth is the
legal system often moves really slowly.
Speaker 3 (08:47):
You're on hold, you can't do anything, You're just in
a holding pattern.
Speaker 2 (08:53):
Weeks turn into months, months turn into years.
Speaker 3 (08:57):
It never gets easier, but you learn to live with
it and you learn how did you know? Yeah, have
it be part of your life.
Speaker 2 (09:05):
In life, no matter how difficult March is. On the
following summer in twenty fifteen, Liz and her daughter move
out of Texas, thousands of miles away to Seattle after
her husband, Anthony, lands a job there.
Speaker 3 (09:28):
I just tried to focus on my daughter really and
I just felt like I didn't have a bandwidth to
really deal with everything. I was just like, Okay, well
this is how it's going to go. Now, like one
foot in front of the other, what do we do?
Speaker 2 (09:44):
Sandy stays in Houston but tries to see Liz and
her grandchild as often as she can.
Speaker 3 (09:50):
We actually spent a lot of time together. She spent
a lot of time with my daughter, and I think that.
Speaker 5 (09:57):
Helped her a lot.
Speaker 2 (09:59):
And sixteen, four years after Jim's death and two years
after Sandy's indictment, Liz is pregnant again.
Speaker 3 (10:07):
And my son was born, and she came and helped.
She came and stayed with my daughter while I had
him in the hospital.
Speaker 2 (10:15):
On the surface, Sandy's doing remarkably well.
Speaker 3 (10:19):
My mom is really good at like compartmentalizing, I guess,
just pretending like that's not guess being in denial. I
don't know, I don't know what you want to call it.
But she's just good. I'm like, everything's fine.
Speaker 4 (10:34):
But everything's not fine. And Liz can see right through.
Speaker 3 (10:38):
It, obviously, like she was still under a ton of
stress and still trying to process everything that happened and
dealing with her own health not doing well, and stress
also makes things worse, both the lupas and the epilepsy.
So she struggled a lot.
Speaker 4 (10:58):
And what about Liz.
Speaker 2 (11:00):
She's filled with anxiety about the future. There might be
some people who are listening who feel like accepting.
Speaker 8 (11:10):
The murder of your dad is horrible. That to accept
that your mom killed your dad is way too horrible
to entertain. So you can even like think about that possibility.
Speaker 3 (11:24):
But you have to, like, how can you not? You
have to because it is a possibility, right, There's a
ton of possibilities. Unfortunately, that is one. She's just a
(11:48):
very warm and loving person. She's a mom. Like when
you picture a mom, at least, I picture someone who
gives you hugs and who's affectionate and who you can
talk to and who you feel comfortable with.
Speaker 2 (12:01):
According to Liz, Sandy was always nurturing, constantly doting on
her only daughter.
Speaker 3 (12:08):
You know, they're making you food, and they're feeding you,
and they're making sure you're okay, and you know, it's
just someone you can trust.
Speaker 4 (12:16):
Liz says.
Speaker 2 (12:16):
Sandy was the peacemaker of the family, especially during shall
we say Liz's more rebellious years. She was always the.
Speaker 3 (12:26):
Buffer between me and my dad, and she was always
telling my dad to just you know, it's okay, just
give her some space. It'll be fine. I felt like
my mother was somebody I could genuinely talk to, not
about everything, but about most things.
Speaker 2 (12:42):
I think a lot of daughters feel that way about
their mothers. They don't need to know everything like, you know,
maybe the time you flirted with shoplifting when you were a.
Speaker 3 (12:50):
Little too old to be doing that.
Speaker 2 (12:53):
Just me.
Speaker 3 (12:54):
My mom is an incredibly calmon, easy going She never complains.
It was always about other people, and you know, she
just wanted everyone else to be okay. And I think
she came last a lot at the time. But I
think that's a lot of moms.
Speaker 2 (13:13):
I feel like throughout this podcast, we've talked a lot
about Sandy's situation, but who she is, what she likes, dislikes,
her favorite foods, you know, the things that make us us.
All of that feels a little fuzzy to me. I
want to see if I can understand her a bit
more where she comes from, so I seek out some
(13:36):
of her family.
Speaker 1 (13:38):
The age difference between Sandy and I is about thirteen
fourteen years. We grew up together, so she was raised
by my grandmother, as was I, So Sandy has always
been in my life.
Speaker 4 (13:56):
Diana is Sandy's cousin.
Speaker 1 (13:58):
Her mom and.
Speaker 2 (14:00):
My dad were siblings, but in reality they're more like sisters,
just like Sandy. Diana says she was abandoned by her parents,
so they both grew up in Laredo, a town in
Texas near the Mexican border.
Speaker 1 (14:16):
At any given point, that could be like seven kids
in a tiny house. It was just fun for me
having so many people around, so much love around.
Speaker 5 (14:28):
But it was difficult.
Speaker 1 (14:31):
We were poor and we struggled for food, and you know,
we would go hungry. I could see pictures and look
back on it now and see the conditions we were
living in, how I was dressed, how malnursed I look.
Speaker 2 (14:45):
Sandy was Diana's role model, caring, reliable, sensible. She even
taught Diana to drive.
Speaker 5 (14:53):
She was such a goodie two shoes, like I don't
know how else to put it. She wasn't a rule breaker,
you know. She we followed the law. She barely had
a speeding ticket.
Speaker 2 (15:05):
Diana followed Sandy from Laredo to Houston and lived with
her in Jim for a.
Speaker 4 (15:10):
Couple of years.
Speaker 2 (15:12):
She says it was her first experience of living in
a peaceful home.
Speaker 5 (15:16):
Sandy and Jim, they had a good life, like they
had made it, you know, out of the whole family,
she was the first one to have a nice home
and a good marriage, like we didn't grow up with,
you know, examples of a good marriage. Besides my aunt.
Everyone else was broken home. You know, my dad, his
(15:38):
marriage didn't work out. Her mom, you know, their marriage
didn't work out. So they were a perfect example of
what we all strive to achieve one day, you know,
the financial stability, the good marriage, you know. I it's
just still so crazy that out of all of us,
(16:01):
she is the one that ended up in this situation.
Speaker 2 (16:07):
Maybe it's unsurprising considering how much Diana revered Sandy, but
you can't think of anyone less likely to murder their husband.
Speaker 5 (16:17):
It was devastating that anyone could think that she was
capable of that, and that she would do something like
that to Jim. And I think maybe she was afraid that,
you know, we were going to think the same thing,
But it just it never entered my mind that Sandy
could be capable of that.
Speaker 2 (16:40):
But in the summer of twenty seventeen, Sandy's murder trial
is finally scheduled, and Diana braces herself for what might
come out in court.
Speaker 4 (16:49):
What if she got it all wrong?
Speaker 5 (16:52):
You know, I believe in science, I believe in evidence,
I believe in law enforcement. And so before the how started,
I prepared myself. I prepared myself for the possibility of
Sandy actually doing this crime, Like I was not blind
to the fact that it is possible, you know, And
(17:14):
so I prepared myself that I'm going to be sitting there,
you know, during the trial and I could find out
Sandy is guilty. That's how I looked at it, because
I was prepared to see the evidence, you know. I
believe that if they charge someone that they have the
(17:35):
evidence to back it up. And I thought, well, what
am I going to do if she's guilty, Like, what
am I going to do? And I knew that, Okay,
if she's guilty, then she deserves to be in prison,
and I'm not going to turn my back on her.
You know, She's been there my whole life, so I
(17:56):
will support her however I can. But she definitely deserves
to be in prison if that's what she did, if
she's guilty of this. So that's how I went into
the trial, knowing that I could get some devastating news.
Speaker 6 (18:25):
Mac and I wholeheartedly, without a doubt, believe in Sandra's innocence.
Speaker 2 (18:30):
This is, no doubt a helpful sentiment if you're going
to defend someone against the murder charge, and Sandy's lucky
She's got Allison Seacrest, who, along with her uncle Mac Seacrest,
will be representing her in court.
Speaker 9 (18:44):
I was honored and delighted to step in and represent
Sandy at trial.
Speaker 6 (18:51):
Mac is my uncle and like a second father.
Speaker 4 (18:55):
She lived with me and studied the law and learned
to have a cook.
Speaker 6 (19:00):
I had a cook, Oh gosh, amazing salads, you know,
lovely fish, all kinds of things. He's an amazing chef
and more importantly, a great friend and excellent mentor.
Speaker 2 (19:11):
George McCall c Chris Junior, or Mac as he prefers
to be called as in his late seventies. Now, he's
one of the big guns of the Texas legal world.
He's been practicing since nineteen seventy seven, and he wrote
the book on law. No really, he's the author of
O'Connor's Texas Criminal Codes plus a kind of Texan legal bible.
(19:37):
And Alison is not only his niece but his protege.
Speaker 6 (19:41):
I had the opportunity to go to court with him
when I was gosh, probably fourth grade or so, and
just thought it was really fascinating seeing him interacting with
judges and lawyers and his client.
Speaker 2 (19:54):
Alison cut her teeth as a prosecutor in the Harris
County DA's office before going into private practice. After taking
on Sandy's case, they request the Melgar police files and
began acquainting themselves with the various details.
Speaker 6 (20:09):
We spent hours and hours with Sandy, hours and hours
with her daughter and with other witnesses and family friends
that we called, you know, as a young defense attorney,
not the experience that my uncle had. Obviously, it was
hard not to get involved. You know. I think a
lot of doctors and lawyers and probably some other professions
(20:32):
have to learn to compartmentalize and not become attached. But
I like Sandy. We did a deep dive into all
of her text messages and understanding what their relationship was like,
what a sweet, loving family, and it wasn't possible for
us to not get emotionally involved.
Speaker 2 (20:55):
But soon mac Alison, Liz and Diana, we'll see how
this will all play out in court.
Speaker 1 (21:04):
A local mark case.
Speaker 2 (21:05):
That grabbed national attention is headed.
Speaker 7 (21:07):
To trial Jerry's selection starting today in the trial of
Sandra Melgar, who's accused of murdering her longtime husband then
trying to cover it up.
Speaker 2 (21:15):
The media circus picks into high gear and presents viewers
with a familiar setup of a lurid them fatale murder trial.
Speaker 7 (21:24):
This is a case that began in twenty twelve and
Sandra Melgar stands accused of murdering her husband, hi May Melgar,
then staging a home invasion as a cover up. It
happened on December twenty third in northwest Harris County. Sandra
and her husband were both found tied up. He was
found dead, stabbed thirty one times in a closet. She
was found bound in a bathroom.
Speaker 10 (21:45):
Melgar originally had told investigators that she blacked out in
a bathroom and woke up tied up in a closet,
but nearly two years later she was arrested and charged
with murder. Now Melgar has been free on a fifty
thousand dollars bond. If convicted of murder, she faces up
to like in prison.
Speaker 2 (22:09):
On Thursday, August twenty seventeen, the State of Texas Versus
Sandra Jean Melgar begins Harris County Criminal Justice Center, Franklin Street,
Downtown Houston. A busker greets the study flow of people
(22:32):
as they climb the stone steps and pass through the
glass doors of the imposing twenty one story building. Attorneys,
journalists Jim and Sandy's family including Liz, Anthony and Diana,
and members of the public all wait in line at
the airport style security. Laptops are laid neatly in trays,
(22:55):
pockets emptied. Today the line is longer than usual. A
noisy knot of law students join the line. They've just
finished their bar exams and for the first time in months,
they've got some downtime. What better way to spend it
than setting in on the opening day of what promises
to be an extraordinary case.
Speaker 3 (23:19):
It was just like one of the most surreal moments
of my life. It just felt like this, like a
snowball that just was gathering momentum.
Speaker 2 (23:28):
Liz attempts to navigate the swirling frenzy of the media.
Cameras aren't allowed inside the courtroom, so the TV crews linger.
Speaker 3 (23:37):
In the hallway, and there's just this camera guy from
one of the news stations and he's just like he
hits somebody in the head of his camera. My husband
is trying to get him the way to block him.
The guy's walking backwards and my husband's like in front
of us I'm trying not to trip over my crutches.
Speaker 2 (23:57):
As if things aren't complicated enough covering from surgery and
hobbling around on crutches.
Speaker 3 (24:04):
I mean, there's just like it's just pure chaos in
this whole way. And I mean I'd never experienced anything
like that before.
Speaker 2 (24:14):
But Liz isn't allowed to watch the trial because she's
going to be called as a witness.
Speaker 3 (24:19):
Well, yeah, they put you in a witness room and
you just have to sit in there all day, every
day and wait because you don't know when you're going
to be called.
Speaker 2 (24:26):
Liz is going to miss the moment she's been waiting
years for when the detectives finally reveal their evidence against
her mom, why they think Sandy killed her dad, even
though she was.
Speaker 4 (24:38):
Found with her hands tied.
Speaker 2 (24:41):
It's the same for Sandy's cousin Diana, who's also being
called as a witness.
Speaker 5 (24:46):
That devastated me because I wanted to hear the evidence firsthand.
I wanted to see it. I didn't want to read it.
I wanted to see what the jury was going to
see and hear. I wanted to exp experience it just
like they're going to.
Speaker 2 (25:03):
And so the State of Texas versus Sandra Jean Melgar
finally begins. First, they need to select a jury, feeding
even more breathless coverage in the press.
Speaker 10 (25:15):
Both the prosecution and the defense spent the morning going
through sixty five prospective jurors. But after going through that
selection process, it couldn't come up with a group of
twelve that they were looking for. Sandra Melgar is charged.
Speaker 2 (25:28):
Both sides get a chance to quiz potential jurors, trying
to weed out anyone with a conflict of interest or
an obvious bias. If you've read MAXI Christ's book, you'll
know that the legal term for this is war dyer.
The potential jurors are reminded that the defendant, Sandy is
innocent until proven guilty, and that it's the prosecution's job
(25:48):
to prove her guilt beyond a reasonable doubt. But what
they don't have to prove is motive, which isn't quite
how I remember it from all those courtrooms dramas I've watched.
I mean, I'm looking at you Law and Order Detective
Olivia Benson, where whole episodes revolve around exposing someone's motive.
(26:10):
But this is real life, and there's no legal requirement
to prove motive.
Speaker 4 (26:16):
You can find someone guilty of murder without ever knowing
why they did it.
Speaker 2 (26:21):
So the potential jurors are asked, could they convict someone
without a motive, and some say they do have a
problem with that and are upfront about it, admitting they
wouldn't be able to find someone guilty without knowing their motive,
so they're out. Others don't make the cut for other reasons.
They're into day two of the trial before they finally
(26:43):
select eight men and four women who will sit in
judgment of Sandy Melgar.
Speaker 9 (26:53):
It's part of my life, part of my history. I
got called into something I didn't want. I resent it,
but I was to do it. I did it because
that's of my civil responsibility. That's what I would want
the government to protect me and make sure if I
was in her situation and somebody was there protecting me.
Speaker 3 (27:11):
Once they picked all the jurors that were gonna sit,
I just remember my cousin saying, there they go. Those
are the people that have your mom's life in their hands,
And that's when it hit home.
Speaker 2 (27:24):
Liz watches the jurors file in before we're treating to
the cold airless witness room, like I kept.
Speaker 3 (27:31):
I was like trying to look at them and like
get a read on them or figure out like please, please,
just be a good human, do the right thing. That's
what made it real, Like that was the moment.
Speaker 2 (27:44):
Once again, she'll be drawing on every ounce of her
Kekchi warrior spirit to get her through the nerve shredding
days ahead.
Speaker 11 (27:53):
It was made to be a sensationalis trial, I think
because it was so unusual.
Speaker 4 (28:00):
What will the jurors make of her?
Speaker 11 (28:01):
Mom Sendra Melkar herself would limp into the courtroom every morning.
When we sat down, she usually put her head down
and she didn't look at us very much.
Speaker 4 (28:13):
And how will they determine Sandy's fate?
Speaker 11 (28:16):
I want to believe somebody is innocent until the state
can prove them guilty. And is the state doing their
job improving this person guilty? And we all place that
at the forefront of our deliberations and our discussion, saying
let's do this the way we're supposed to.
Speaker 9 (28:30):
We're here to decide innocent or guilty.
Speaker 4 (28:34):
That's next time on Hands Tied.
Speaker 2 (28:48):
You've been listening to Hands TIEDE, a new eight part
true crime series from BBC Studios and iHeart Podcasts. New
episodes will be released weekly, so subscribe, follow on the
iHeartRadio app or wherever you get your podcasts so you
don't miss out. If you like the show, please help
us by spreading the word or giving us a five
(29:10):
star review. I'm Maggie Robinson Katz and the producer is
Maggie Latham. Sound design and mix is by Tom Brignoll.
Our script consultant is Emma Weatherall production support is from
Dan Martini, Elena Boutang and Mabel Finnegan Wright and our
production Executive is Laura Jordan Rawl.
Speaker 4 (29:33):
The series was developed by Anya Saunders and Emma Shaw.
Speaker 2 (29:37):
At iHeart, the Managing Executive Producer is Christina Everett, and
for BBC Studios, the Executive Producer is Joe Kent. James
Cook is the creative director A Factual for BBC Studios
Audio and the Director of Audio at BBC Studios is
Richard Knight.
BBCD.
Speaker 2 (00:06):
Hey, I'm Maggie. Just a quick heads up before we start.
The series does contain some descriptions of violence and deals
with adult themes. How many tattoos do you have a lot?
Speaker 3 (00:26):
I have a physics equation tramp stamp.
Speaker 4 (00:29):
I thought that would be funny, funny. I love a
physics tramp stapp. High brow lowbrow.
Speaker 2 (00:37):
Is my love language, and that is the epitome of
hy braw lowbrow.
Speaker 3 (00:42):
That would be kind of ironic.
Speaker 2 (00:44):
So what's the physics equations?
Speaker 3 (00:47):
The Dirac equation. It kind of brings like quantum physics
and relativity together. It just like explains everything, and it
kind of talks about like dark matter and I don't
know antimatter. I can't even remember. It's been so long.
Speaker 2 (01:04):
I'm sitting next to Liz on her oversized, well loved
teal colored couch in London, nodding my head, pretending I
know exactly what the Dorac equation is. I have no
idea what the Dorac equation is.
Speaker 5 (01:19):
I love.
Speaker 2 (01:19):
Liz starts to roll up her sleeve, showing me her
other tattoos, her mood changing as she does.
Speaker 4 (01:26):
This is beautiful.
Speaker 3 (01:28):
It's just got touched up. But most of this was
done by a Mexican toutoo artist, and it's hard to see.
Speaker 2 (01:37):
Liz pivots her body further, lifting the fabric up and
revealing a kaleidoscope of colorful flowers inked on her arm.
Speaker 1 (01:46):
So there was like a rose up here for their
last name.
Speaker 2 (01:49):
She's now Liz Melgar Rose, taking the name Rose from
her husband Anthony. And there are others, each flower representing
a different member of her family.
Speaker 6 (02:02):
And then these.
Speaker 3 (02:03):
Are for my parents and stergazer Lily's. This is my
mom's birth flower. This is the sacred mind flower.
Speaker 2 (02:12):
This one, yeah, a deep purple aster with its brilliant
yellow center. There's a violet a sunflower.
Speaker 3 (02:23):
This is my daughter's birth flower.
Speaker 4 (02:26):
My son's a chrysanthemum.
Speaker 3 (02:29):
And the poppies are my dad's. And then this is
a simplest cheese or a miracle and those are used
young Day of the Dead. So that's like me wearing
my altar all the time.
Speaker 2 (02:45):
Her tattoos her altar are not just devotions to her dad,
but to their shared my inheritage. Something she says, Jim
was deeply proud of having grown up in Guatemala.
Speaker 3 (02:58):
When I was a kid, He was always trying to
teach me about our culture and tell me I should
be proud of where we've come from, and you know
that we've come from nothing and look at where we are.
And I really didn't appreciate it at the time. I
really didn't. I was just oh, my god, Okay, I
get it. I've heard the story a hundred times.
Speaker 4 (03:19):
What would he tell you about living in Guatemala.
Speaker 3 (03:22):
He would just talk about like the absolute poverty. He
would always tell me that, you know, you don't know
how good you have it or how lucky you are.
My grandmother she used to live in like straw and
mud houses that they would have to rebuild every year.
Her first language was a Mayan dialect called Kikichi, and
then she learned Spanish later on once she got older.
(03:45):
But they were very, very poor. So when I was six,
we went for six weeks and I remember that trip vividly.
Speaker 4 (03:55):
Yeah, tell me about it.
Speaker 3 (03:57):
Yeah, I mean, we get there and in the middle
of the courtyard there's like this shit and that's where
everyone showers. But you know, I was like, there's no
hot water. How am I going to take a bath?
So my grandma got like one of those metal clothes,
washing bins, and heated hot water on the stove so
(04:18):
I could have a warm bath. And my dad said
that as soon as we got there, I said, there's
nothing cool to drink. I'm ready to go home.
Speaker 2 (04:28):
I mean understandable. I think I would feel the same
way at age six. But as Liz gets older, her
interest in her indigenous roots continued to grow, and after
her dad's murder, that interest becomes a passion.
Speaker 3 (04:46):
I guess I'm trying to get to know the culture
because I don't know. I guess it makes me feel
more connected to my dad and my family.
Speaker 2 (04:58):
Liz is planning another test you to honor her kek
Chi spirit.
Speaker 4 (05:04):
Do you know what you're going to get? Just a
red band on your wrist?
Speaker 7 (05:07):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (05:08):
Cool. It's supposed to signify the blood that's been shed
from the genocide of the Mayan people.
Speaker 2 (05:18):
A symbol to mark the oppression of the mind people,
which is no doubt an incredibly heavy thing to have
inked on your body. But this red band also symbolizes
a message of resilience and survival against acts of cruelty,
And if you've been through what Liz has, I can
see why this message would resonate so deeply. She's already
(05:41):
lost one parent, and to rewind back to the summer
of twenty fourteen, she feels like she's about to lose another.
It's been eighteen months since Jim's death. Liz is at
the new home she shares with her mom and husband,
a high of flyers from various lawyers in her hands,
(06:03):
all offering to represent Sandy.
Speaker 4 (06:06):
I can't imagine what Liz is feeling.
Speaker 2 (06:09):
She's trying to come to terms with the loss of
her dad and now this all while just becoming a
mother herself.
Speaker 3 (06:17):
I just had my daughter, so I was kind of
all over the place.
Speaker 2 (06:23):
Liz is likely sleep deprived adjusting to her new life
as a mom. Maybe this is all a mistake. Could
this really be happening. She keeps checking the records on
the district attorney's website.
Speaker 3 (06:35):
Clearing the page and then searching for her name, like
this has to be a mistake, and like doing the
search a couple of different ways just to be sure
that I had the right information.
Speaker 4 (06:46):
But it's no mistake.
Speaker 2 (06:48):
Sandy had been indicted for Jim's murder, and right now
Liz is going to need every fiber of her keck
che Warrior Spirit to keep her mom out of jail.
I'm Maggie Robinson Katz and from BBC Studios and iHeart Podcasts.
(07:10):
This is Hands Tied Episode five Warrior Spirit. Liz has
entered what feels like a parallel universe. Her mom is
no longer Sandy Melgar, but the defendant accused of first
(07:32):
degree murder and things are about to get even worse.
Speaker 3 (07:39):
We all served to Houston together so that she could
turn herself in and be processed. My mom was in tears,
and she's never been rested before, She's never gotten in trouble.
I was terrifying for her.
Speaker 2 (07:55):
At nine am on July twenty ninth, twenty fourteen, in Houston, Texas,
Sandy is arrested and the formal indictment is read out.
Sandra Melgar is accused of unlawfully, intentionally and knowingly causing
the death of I may by and I quote, stabbing
the complainant with the deadly weapon, namely a knife. Sandy
(08:19):
is granted bail.
Speaker 3 (08:21):
You don't know what's going to happen. You don't know
how to prepare for that. There is no one you
can really talk to you because not everybody goes through that.
You know, it's very isolating, it's very it's it's hard.
Speaker 2 (08:33):
I think we all have expectations of how justice moves
from what we've seen on movies or on TV. You're indicted,
then it's straight to court. But the truth is the
legal system often moves really slowly.
Speaker 3 (08:47):
You're on hold, you can't do anything, You're just in
a holding pattern.
Speaker 2 (08:53):
Weeks turn into months, months turn into years.
Speaker 3 (08:57):
It never gets easier, but you learn to live with
it and you learn how did you know? Yeah, have
it be part of your life.
Speaker 2 (09:05):
In life, no matter how difficult March is. On the
following summer in twenty fifteen, Liz and her daughter move
out of Texas, thousands of miles away to Seattle after
her husband, Anthony, lands a job there.
Speaker 3 (09:28):
I just tried to focus on my daughter really and
I just felt like I didn't have a bandwidth to
really deal with everything. I was just like, Okay, well
this is how it's going to go. Now, like one
foot in front of the other, what do we do?
Speaker 2 (09:44):
Sandy stays in Houston but tries to see Liz and
her grandchild as often as she can.
Speaker 3 (09:50):
We actually spent a lot of time together. She spent
a lot of time with my daughter, and I think that.
Speaker 5 (09:57):
Helped her a lot.
Speaker 2 (09:59):
And sixteen, four years after Jim's death and two years
after Sandy's indictment, Liz is pregnant again.
Speaker 3 (10:07):
And my son was born, and she came and helped.
She came and stayed with my daughter while I had
him in the hospital.
Speaker 2 (10:15):
On the surface, Sandy's doing remarkably well.
Speaker 3 (10:19):
My mom is really good at like compartmentalizing, I guess,
just pretending like that's not guess being in denial. I
don't know, I don't know what you want to call it.
But she's just good. I'm like, everything's fine.
Speaker 4 (10:34):
But everything's not fine. And Liz can see right through.
Speaker 3 (10:38):
It, obviously, like she was still under a ton of
stress and still trying to process everything that happened and
dealing with her own health not doing well, and stress
also makes things worse, both the lupas and the epilepsy.
So she struggled a lot.
Speaker 4 (10:58):
And what about Liz.
Speaker 2 (11:00):
She's filled with anxiety about the future. There might be
some people who are listening who feel like accepting.
Speaker 8 (11:10):
The murder of your dad is horrible. That to accept
that your mom killed your dad is way too horrible
to entertain. So you can even like think about that possibility.
Speaker 3 (11:24):
But you have to, like, how can you not? You
have to because it is a possibility, right, There's a
ton of possibilities. Unfortunately, that is one. She's just a
(11:48):
very warm and loving person. She's a mom. Like when
you picture a mom, at least, I picture someone who
gives you hugs and who's affectionate and who you can
talk to and who you feel comfortable with.
Speaker 2 (12:01):
According to Liz, Sandy was always nurturing, constantly doting on
her only daughter.
Speaker 3 (12:08):
You know, they're making you food, and they're feeding you,
and they're making sure you're okay, and you know, it's
just someone you can trust.
Speaker 4 (12:16):
Liz says.
Speaker 2 (12:16):
Sandy was the peacemaker of the family, especially during shall
we say Liz's more rebellious years. She was always the.
Speaker 3 (12:26):
Buffer between me and my dad, and she was always
telling my dad to just you know, it's okay, just
give her some space. It'll be fine. I felt like
my mother was somebody I could genuinely talk to, not
about everything, but about most things.
Speaker 2 (12:42):
I think a lot of daughters feel that way about
their mothers. They don't need to know everything like, you know,
maybe the time you flirted with shoplifting when you were a.
Speaker 3 (12:50):
Little too old to be doing that.
Speaker 2 (12:53):
Just me.
Speaker 3 (12:54):
My mom is an incredibly calmon, easy going She never complains.
It was always about other people, and you know, she
just wanted everyone else to be okay. And I think
she came last a lot at the time. But I
think that's a lot of moms.
Speaker 2 (13:13):
I feel like throughout this podcast, we've talked a lot
about Sandy's situation, but who she is, what she likes, dislikes,
her favorite foods, you know, the things that make us us.
All of that feels a little fuzzy to me. I
want to see if I can understand her a bit
more where she comes from, so I seek out some
(13:36):
of her family.
Speaker 1 (13:38):
The age difference between Sandy and I is about thirteen
fourteen years. We grew up together, so she was raised
by my grandmother, as was I, So Sandy has always
been in my life.
Speaker 4 (13:56):
Diana is Sandy's cousin.
Speaker 1 (13:58):
Her mom and.
Speaker 2 (14:00):
My dad were siblings, but in reality they're more like sisters,
just like Sandy. Diana says she was abandoned by her parents,
so they both grew up in Laredo, a town in
Texas near the Mexican border.
Speaker 1 (14:16):
At any given point, that could be like seven kids
in a tiny house. It was just fun for me
having so many people around, so much love around.
Speaker 5 (14:28):
But it was difficult.
Speaker 1 (14:31):
We were poor and we struggled for food, and you know,
we would go hungry. I could see pictures and look
back on it now and see the conditions we were
living in, how I was dressed, how malnursed I look.
Speaker 2 (14:45):
Sandy was Diana's role model, caring, reliable, sensible. She even
taught Diana to drive.
Speaker 5 (14:53):
She was such a goodie two shoes, like I don't
know how else to put it. She wasn't a rule breaker,
you know. She we followed the law. She barely had
a speeding ticket.
Speaker 2 (15:05):
Diana followed Sandy from Laredo to Houston and lived with
her in Jim for a.
Speaker 4 (15:10):
Couple of years.
Speaker 2 (15:12):
She says it was her first experience of living in
a peaceful home.
Speaker 5 (15:16):
Sandy and Jim, they had a good life, like they
had made it, you know, out of the whole family,
she was the first one to have a nice home
and a good marriage, like we didn't grow up with,
you know, examples of a good marriage. Besides my aunt.
Everyone else was broken home. You know, my dad, his
(15:38):
marriage didn't work out. Her mom, you know, their marriage
didn't work out. So they were a perfect example of
what we all strive to achieve one day, you know,
the financial stability, the good marriage, you know. I it's
just still so crazy that out of all of us,
(16:01):
she is the one that ended up in this situation.
Speaker 2 (16:07):
Maybe it's unsurprising considering how much Diana revered Sandy, but
you can't think of anyone less likely to murder their husband.
Speaker 5 (16:17):
It was devastating that anyone could think that she was
capable of that, and that she would do something like
that to Jim. And I think maybe she was afraid that,
you know, we were going to think the same thing,
But it just it never entered my mind that Sandy
could be capable of that.
Speaker 2 (16:40):
But in the summer of twenty seventeen, Sandy's murder trial
is finally scheduled, and Diana braces herself for what might
come out in court.
Speaker 4 (16:49):
What if she got it all wrong?
Speaker 5 (16:52):
You know, I believe in science, I believe in evidence,
I believe in law enforcement. And so before the how started,
I prepared myself. I prepared myself for the possibility of
Sandy actually doing this crime, Like I was not blind
to the fact that it is possible, you know, And
(17:14):
so I prepared myself that I'm going to be sitting there,
you know, during the trial and I could find out
Sandy is guilty. That's how I looked at it, because
I was prepared to see the evidence, you know. I
believe that if they charge someone that they have the
(17:35):
evidence to back it up. And I thought, well, what
am I going to do if she's guilty, Like, what
am I going to do? And I knew that, Okay,
if she's guilty, then she deserves to be in prison,
and I'm not going to turn my back on her.
You know, She's been there my whole life, so I
(17:56):
will support her however I can. But she definitely deserves
to be in prison if that's what she did, if
she's guilty of this. So that's how I went into
the trial, knowing that I could get some devastating news.
Speaker 6 (18:25):
Mac and I wholeheartedly, without a doubt, believe in Sandra's innocence.
Speaker 2 (18:30):
This is, no doubt a helpful sentiment if you're going
to defend someone against the murder charge, and Sandy's lucky
She's got Allison Seacrest, who, along with her uncle Mac Seacrest,
will be representing her in court.
Speaker 9 (18:44):
I was honored and delighted to step in and represent
Sandy at trial.
Speaker 6 (18:51):
Mac is my uncle and like a second father.
Speaker 4 (18:55):
She lived with me and studied the law and learned
to have a cook.
Speaker 6 (19:00):
I had a cook, Oh gosh, amazing salads, you know,
lovely fish, all kinds of things. He's an amazing chef
and more importantly, a great friend and excellent mentor.
Speaker 2 (19:11):
George McCall c Chris Junior, or Mac as he prefers
to be called as in his late seventies. Now, he's
one of the big guns of the Texas legal world.
He's been practicing since nineteen seventy seven, and he wrote
the book on law. No really, he's the author of
O'Connor's Texas Criminal Codes plus a kind of Texan legal bible.
(19:37):
And Alison is not only his niece but his protege.
Speaker 6 (19:41):
I had the opportunity to go to court with him
when I was gosh, probably fourth grade or so, and
just thought it was really fascinating seeing him interacting with
judges and lawyers and his client.
Speaker 2 (19:54):
Alison cut her teeth as a prosecutor in the Harris
County DA's office before going into private practice. After taking
on Sandy's case, they request the Melgar police files and
began acquainting themselves with the various details.
Speaker 6 (20:09):
We spent hours and hours with Sandy, hours and hours
with her daughter and with other witnesses and family friends
that we called, you know, as a young defense attorney,
not the experience that my uncle had. Obviously, it was
hard not to get involved. You know. I think a
lot of doctors and lawyers and probably some other professions
(20:32):
have to learn to compartmentalize and not become attached. But
I like Sandy. We did a deep dive into all
of her text messages and understanding what their relationship was like,
what a sweet, loving family, and it wasn't possible for
us to not get emotionally involved.
Speaker 2 (20:55):
But soon mac Alison, Liz and Diana, we'll see how
this will all play out in court.
Speaker 1 (21:04):
A local mark case.
Speaker 2 (21:05):
That grabbed national attention is headed.
Speaker 7 (21:07):
To trial Jerry's selection starting today in the trial of
Sandra Melgar, who's accused of murdering her longtime husband then
trying to cover it up.
Speaker 2 (21:15):
The media circus picks into high gear and presents viewers
with a familiar setup of a lurid them fatale murder trial.
Speaker 7 (21:24):
This is a case that began in twenty twelve and
Sandra Melgar stands accused of murdering her husband, hi May Melgar,
then staging a home invasion as a cover up. It
happened on December twenty third in northwest Harris County. Sandra
and her husband were both found tied up. He was
found dead, stabbed thirty one times in a closet. She
was found bound in a bathroom.
Speaker 10 (21:45):
Melgar originally had told investigators that she blacked out in
a bathroom and woke up tied up in a closet,
but nearly two years later she was arrested and charged
with murder. Now Melgar has been free on a fifty
thousand dollars bond. If convicted of murder, she faces up
to like in prison.
Speaker 2 (22:09):
On Thursday, August twenty seventeen, the State of Texas Versus
Sandra Jean Melgar begins Harris County Criminal Justice Center, Franklin Street,
Downtown Houston. A busker greets the study flow of people
(22:32):
as they climb the stone steps and pass through the
glass doors of the imposing twenty one story building. Attorneys,
journalists Jim and Sandy's family including Liz, Anthony and Diana,
and members of the public all wait in line at
the airport style security. Laptops are laid neatly in trays,
(22:55):
pockets emptied. Today the line is longer than usual. A
noisy knot of law students join the line. They've just
finished their bar exams and for the first time in months,
they've got some downtime. What better way to spend it
than setting in on the opening day of what promises
to be an extraordinary case.
Speaker 3 (23:19):
It was just like one of the most surreal moments
of my life. It just felt like this, like a
snowball that just was gathering momentum.
Speaker 2 (23:28):
Liz attempts to navigate the swirling frenzy of the media.
Cameras aren't allowed inside the courtroom, so the TV crews linger.
Speaker 3 (23:37):
In the hallway, and there's just this camera guy from
one of the news stations and he's just like he
hits somebody in the head of his camera. My husband
is trying to get him the way to block him.
The guy's walking backwards and my husband's like in front
of us I'm trying not to trip over my crutches.
Speaker 2 (23:57):
As if things aren't complicated enough covering from surgery and
hobbling around on crutches.
Speaker 3 (24:04):
I mean, there's just like it's just pure chaos in
this whole way. And I mean I'd never experienced anything
like that before.
Speaker 2 (24:14):
But Liz isn't allowed to watch the trial because she's
going to be called as a witness.
Speaker 3 (24:19):
Well, yeah, they put you in a witness room and
you just have to sit in there all day, every
day and wait because you don't know when you're going
to be called.
Speaker 2 (24:26):
Liz is going to miss the moment she's been waiting
years for when the detectives finally reveal their evidence against
her mom, why they think Sandy killed her dad, even
though she was.
Speaker 4 (24:38):
Found with her hands tied.
Speaker 2 (24:41):
It's the same for Sandy's cousin Diana, who's also being
called as a witness.
Speaker 5 (24:46):
That devastated me because I wanted to hear the evidence firsthand.
I wanted to see it. I didn't want to read it.
I wanted to see what the jury was going to
see and hear. I wanted to exp experience it just
like they're going to.
Speaker 2 (25:03):
And so the State of Texas versus Sandra Jean Melgar
finally begins. First, they need to select a jury, feeding
even more breathless coverage in the press.
Speaker 10 (25:15):
Both the prosecution and the defense spent the morning going
through sixty five prospective jurors. But after going through that
selection process, it couldn't come up with a group of
twelve that they were looking for. Sandra Melgar is charged.
Speaker 2 (25:28):
Both sides get a chance to quiz potential jurors, trying
to weed out anyone with a conflict of interest or
an obvious bias. If you've read MAXI Christ's book, you'll
know that the legal term for this is war dyer.
The potential jurors are reminded that the defendant, Sandy is
innocent until proven guilty, and that it's the prosecution's job
(25:48):
to prove her guilt beyond a reasonable doubt. But what
they don't have to prove is motive, which isn't quite
how I remember it from all those courtrooms dramas I've watched.
I mean, I'm looking at you Law and Order Detective
Olivia Benson, where whole episodes revolve around exposing someone's motive.
(26:10):
But this is real life, and there's no legal requirement
to prove motive.
Speaker 4 (26:16):
You can find someone guilty of murder without ever knowing
why they did it.
Speaker 2 (26:21):
So the potential jurors are asked, could they convict someone
without a motive, and some say they do have a
problem with that and are upfront about it, admitting they
wouldn't be able to find someone guilty without knowing their motive,
so they're out. Others don't make the cut for other reasons.
They're into day two of the trial before they finally
(26:43):
select eight men and four women who will sit in
judgment of Sandy Melgar.
Speaker 9 (26:53):
It's part of my life, part of my history. I
got called into something I didn't want. I resent it,
but I was to do it. I did it because
that's of my civil responsibility. That's what I would want
the government to protect me and make sure if I
was in her situation and somebody was there protecting me.
Speaker 3 (27:11):
Once they picked all the jurors that were gonna sit,
I just remember my cousin saying, there they go. Those
are the people that have your mom's life in their hands,
And that's when it hit home.
Speaker 2 (27:24):
Liz watches the jurors file in before we're treating to
the cold airless witness room, like I kept.
Speaker 3 (27:31):
I was like trying to look at them and like
get a read on them or figure out like please, please,
just be a good human, do the right thing. That's
what made it real, Like that was the moment.
Speaker 2 (27:44):
Once again, she'll be drawing on every ounce of her
Kekchi warrior spirit to get her through the nerve shredding
days ahead.
Speaker 11 (27:53):
It was made to be a sensationalis trial, I think
because it was so unusual.
Speaker 4 (28:00):
What will the jurors make of her?
Speaker 11 (28:01):
Mom Sendra Melkar herself would limp into the courtroom every morning.
When we sat down, she usually put her head down
and she didn't look at us very much.
Speaker 4 (28:13):
And how will they determine Sandy's fate?
Speaker 11 (28:16):
I want to believe somebody is innocent until the state
can prove them guilty. And is the state doing their
job improving this person guilty? And we all place that
at the forefront of our deliberations and our discussion, saying
let's do this the way we're supposed to.
Speaker 9 (28:30):
We're here to decide innocent or guilty.
Speaker 4 (28:34):
That's next time on Hands Tied.
Speaker 2 (28:48):
You've been listening to Hands TIEDE, a new eight part
true crime series from BBC Studios and iHeart Podcasts. New
episodes will be released weekly, so subscribe, follow on the
iHeartRadio app or wherever you get your podcasts so you
don't miss out. If you like the show, please help
us by spreading the word or giving us a five
(29:10):
star review. I'm Maggie Robinson Katz and the producer is
Maggie Latham. Sound design and mix is by Tom Brignoll.
Our script consultant is Emma Weatherall production support is from
Dan Martini, Elena Boutang and Mabel Finnegan Wright and our
production Executive is Laura Jordan Rawl.
Speaker 4 (29:33):
The series was developed by Anya Saunders and Emma Shaw.
Speaker 2 (29:37):
At iHeart, the Managing Executive Producer is Christina Everett, and
for BBC Studios, the Executive Producer is Joe Kent. James
Cook is the creative director A Factual for BBC Studios
Audio and the Director of Audio at BBC Studios is
Richard Knight.
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