September 17, 2025 • 32 mins
The jury has reached a verdict in the murder trial of Sandra Jean Melgar, but it’s not over yet.
Host: Maggie Robinson Katz
Producer: Maggie Latham
Script consultant: Emma Weatherill
Sound designer: Tom Brignell
Production support from: Dan Marchini, Elaina Boateng and Mabel Finnegan-Wright
Managing Executive Producer (iHeart): Cristina Everett
Executive Producer (BBC Studios): Joe Kent
Hands Tied is a BBC Studios Audio production for iHeartPodcasts
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
BBCGDAS. Hey, Hi'm Maggie. Just a quick heads up before
we start. The series does contain some descriptions of violence
and deals with adult themes. We're live at the Harris
County Criminal Courthouse.
Speaker 2 (00:21):
Channel twos.
Speaker 3 (00:22):
Lee for Lishi is joining us live downtown with what
we're learning from the courtroom as we wait for a
verdict in this case.
Speaker 1 (00:28):
Lee, So, the jury is expected to deliberate for only
a few more minutes until about five point fifteen, then
they'll be back at it again tomorrow morning. It's a
hot and humid afternoon in late August twenty seventeen, and
the court reporters wait en mass for the climax to
a story they've been following for years.
Speaker 4 (00:48):
Jen, we are on verdict watch in the case against
fifty seven year old Sandra Melgar. The jury started deliberating
yesterday evening, continued to deliberate this morning, and in fact,
just moments ago, took a break. This is a case.
Speaker 1 (01:00):
After seven and a half hours split over two days,
the jury reached a verdict in the State of Texas
versus Sandra Jean Melgar. As they file back into the courtroom,
Liz scrutinizes their faces looking for clues.
Speaker 5 (01:16):
When they all were called back after they reach their verdict,
I already knew why because people were crying. There were
a few people who were crying. To me, I was like,
you're not going to cry if you're going to say
someone's not guilty.
Speaker 1 (01:32):
Sandy's attorney, Max Seacrest, is also studying each member of
the jury.
Speaker 6 (01:37):
Normally, if you're going to prevail, they'll look at you.
They may even grin. Like this jury came in, not
one of them looked us in the eye.
Speaker 1 (01:48):
With everyone back in the courtroom, one of the jurors
hands a slip of paper to the bailiff, who passes
it to the judge. They've reached a unanimous verdict. The
defend Sandra Jean Melgar, is ordered to stand. She shakily
moves to her feet, her body supported by her thin
wooden cane. The judge clears her throat and reads from
(02:12):
the slip of paper. We the jury find the defendant,
Sandra Jean Melgar, guilty of murder as charged in the indictment.
Sandy lets out a cry of disbelief and falls back
into her chair. For Sandy's friends and family, it feels
(02:35):
like the oxygen has been stripped from the room.
Speaker 6 (02:38):
They were devastated, crying and it was just a horrible day.
Speaker 1 (02:46):
There's Sandy's niece Marissa, who was there when she was found.
Speaker 7 (02:51):
My heart just sunk into my stomach. I could not
believe this was happening to her because there was just
no way, no way. We knew, we knew that they
got it wrong.
Speaker 1 (03:03):
There's Tammy Armstrong, who consoled Sandy after her police interview.
Speaker 2 (03:08):
We're in such shock and I mean dead silence when
they read that verdict.
Speaker 1 (03:14):
And there's Diana, the cousin who was more like a sister.
Speaker 8 (03:18):
Sandy started crying immediately, Liz started crying. We all started crying.
Liz ran to her to give her like one last
time before they left, before they took her away, and
then as soon as that happened, Liz fell to the ground.
Speaker 1 (03:37):
For Liz, it's all a blur, like something out of
a horrible nightmare.
Speaker 5 (03:43):
It just felt like an out of body experience. And
I just remember, like my husband just like grabbed onto
me really tightly, and it's like holding onto me and
hugging me, and I kept telling her like it's gonna
be okay, like we're going to figure it out. I
had no idea what I was doing, or like what
I was even saying, or what that meant.
Speaker 1 (04:04):
What do you remember how your mom took it?
Speaker 5 (04:07):
I mean she was just in tears.
Speaker 2 (04:10):
She was just.
Speaker 5 (04:12):
I mean, it was devastating for everybody.
Speaker 1 (04:16):
But it's not over yet. It's down to the jury
to decide how long Sandy will spend in prison, and
there's a chance she'll never get out. I'm Maggie Robinson
Katz And from BBC Studios and iHeart Podcasts. This is
(04:37):
Hands Tied, episode seven, after Shock.
Speaker 2 (04:49):
I think I had heard enough, felt enough that I
truly believe that she did it.
Speaker 1 (04:56):
You remember Aaron Day, he was on the jury.
Speaker 2 (04:59):
The didn't had the ability to do it, even though
she doesn't remember doing it. I think that was a
convenient defense. Oh I forgot or I don't remember.
Speaker 1 (05:10):
One of the first things they did when they entered
the jury room was take a quick count. They'd heard
the prosecution, they heard the defense. Who did they believe.
Five of the jurors thought Sandy was guilty, four innocent,
and three were undecided.
Speaker 2 (05:26):
I was on the guilty side. From the moment we
sat down, we talked about it. We were each given
time to discuss our feelings and our position. There was
a lot of I don't know, I need to think through.
There was so much information and there were some people going, yes,
she did it. She was say no, she didn't.
Speaker 1 (05:44):
And then how did you come to reach the unanimous verdict?
Speaker 2 (05:47):
We looked at a lot of the evidence again, we
looked at a lot of the discussion, We read transcripts,
we went over testimony, how we felt about the testimony.
Speaker 1 (05:57):
Together, the jurors workshopped Sandy's future.
Speaker 2 (06:00):
What evidence could prove that she is innocent of the crime.
There was hardly nothing there. That's why we kept going
to the guilty. She was there and she had the
time and ability to do it, and the ones that
were unsure listened to us, they changed their mind and
they deemed her guilty. And so then we had to say, well,
(06:23):
we'll have to tell the world how we feel.
Speaker 1 (06:27):
So what does Aaron think happened that night?
Speaker 2 (06:30):
Witnesses painted them as a happy couple to the public,
but I don't think she was ever really happy because
all the attention that was paid to her husband. He
was an elder within the church, and being a Latin American.
He was very charismatic. I think the murder was an accident.
(06:50):
I don't think she purposely tried to murder him, but
I think that anger, after years of feeling that way
and not discussing it, came out in this alcohol and
drug filled rage, and it went too far and she
killed it.
Speaker 1 (07:06):
Honestly, I'm surprised to hear Aaron say this, because when
I wrote the court documents, I'm not sure the evidence
supports that theory. Sure, Sandy did drink that night. She
said she had a pina colada with her meal and
two Vodkas in sprite in the jacuzzi, but also told
detectives that she didn't finish the second one. But drugs,
(07:27):
she was all like.
Speaker 2 (07:28):
A myriad of like two. I think we're are two
very mental drugs for her. Lupus are very powerful drugs.
And then she had the migraine medicine, which in my
mind would be one that you don't drink alcohol with.
But that night they had been out drinking.
Speaker 1 (07:47):
Did they go through the various medications that she was
on in the side effect that they could have.
Speaker 8 (07:52):
No.
Speaker 2 (07:52):
I don't think the defense or prosecution brought any of
that up. They just mentioned that she was on drugs.
Speaker 1 (08:00):
But what about what was said in court? If this
is a case about stories, it seems the prosecutions made
more sense to Aarin. Sandy was unhappy, she needed to
get out of her marriage, and therefore resorted to murder,
while the defense's argument of a home invasion gone wrong
just didn't add up.
Speaker 2 (08:21):
They failed to tell me or make me believe she
didn't do it. So I'm like, oh, you're not offering
me any Oh, yeah, there was somebody that came in
the house, Well prove it. Where's your proof? Do you
have any video that shows somebody going to the house,
any footprints, any fingerprints, any evidence that somebody was there?
Did the body have anything on it? The prosecution and
(08:44):
the investigators found.
Speaker 1 (08:45):
Nothing to Max Seacrest, Sandy's defense attorney. This is a
fundamental misunderstanding of the justice system. Innocent until proven guilty.
The burden of prooflies with the prosecution. It's for them
to prove someone is guilty, not the defense to prove
their innocence.
Speaker 6 (09:06):
I don't want to ditch a jury. I respect their
verdict here, but I obviously don't agree with it. I
can't fathom how a group of folks conscientiously could believe
beyond a reasonable doubt that the prosecution had proved its case.
Speaker 3 (09:29):
I mean, this is an absolute tragedy.
Speaker 1 (09:32):
Alison Seacrest, Max niece and fellow attorney.
Speaker 3 (09:36):
She lost the love of her life, her best friend,
her caretaker. I mean, Jim took care of her, He
drove her around. There were times where she couldn't even
drive because of her seizure disorder and the impact that
this had on her daughter and not being able to
see her grandchildren grow up. I mean, it's just really wrong.
Speaker 1 (10:01):
What went wrong in the trial? Then?
Speaker 6 (10:04):
You know that's Uh, that's only a question that Alison
and I ask ourselves every day. I rarely have a
day that I don't think about Sandy. Uh. And it's
it's hard, it's hard to answer.
Speaker 1 (10:24):
Max's voice catches. He takes a moment to compose himself.
It's clear the whole trial has taken a toll on him,
and he's still trying to make sense of how it
all played out. The impact of the choices he made.
Walk me through the decision to not bring Sandy on
(10:46):
the stand to give evidence.
Speaker 6 (10:48):
Well, that is an area that I really can't discuss
because of attorney client privilege, but I will say this,
it was our belief before we tried the case. It's
our belief now that obviously she had no burden. So
that was a decision made by us, by the lawyers.
Speaker 5 (11:09):
I said, maybe you should testify, and she said, I'll
have a seizure on the stand. I can't because she
gets when she's stressed, you know, or too tired, doesn't
get enough sleep, you know, she will have a seizure.
I said, no, just have a seizure, Just let them
see it. Like they don't believe you, Just stop picking
your medicine and have a seizure. She's like, no, I
don't want to prolong this any longer.
Speaker 2 (11:31):
I often wonder how I would have felt that she
did take the stand and said I didn't do it,
look at the jury and say I didn't do it.
Was that assuade me? It might have. I mean, I
can't tell because she didn't choose to tell me directly.
She did not murder her husband.
Speaker 1 (11:48):
And though hindsight is always easier in the rear view mirror,
Sandy and her defense team have to look to the
future embrace for the jury sentencing. It's the day after
(12:09):
Sandy was found guilty. We're back in the courtroom and
it's time for sentencing. Her attorney, Maxycres, asks for leniency.
He describes Sandy as a good, caring, loving wife with
no criminal history and innocent of the crime she's been
(12:29):
convicted of.
Speaker 9 (12:31):
And that's exactly why we're here today, because they drank
the kool aid of Sandra Melgar.
Speaker 1 (12:38):
Prosecutor Colleen Barnett, her word, spoken by an actor, requests
an appropriate sentence for someone she believes as a calculating killer.
Speaker 9 (12:48):
She's even manipulated her lawyers. She's manipulated her church group,
She's manipulated most of the people that she goes around
with who believe that she is in.
Speaker 2 (13:02):
When they made us decide how many years in prison
she had to spend, there was a lot of controversy there,
being in her age and being her physical illnesses. Some
people wanted to give her the minimum time, some people
wanted to give her the maximum time.
Speaker 1 (13:17):
There is a minimum of five years in prison, with
the maximum sentence being life. But Sandy is fifty seven
years old, so there's a very real chance she could
die in prison.
Speaker 2 (13:29):
So we ended up somewhere in the middle.
Speaker 1 (13:34):
Sandy melgar Is sentenced to twenty seven years behind bars.
How did that feel hearing the sentencing of twenty seven years?
Speaker 5 (13:47):
They felt that twenty seven years was showing her mercy
because with good behavior, you can get out in half
the time, So that would be like thirteen and a
half years, and so they felt that she would be
like seventy something and she could still have some time
with her grandchildren before she died, and that that was
(14:09):
their bit of mercy for her.
Speaker 1 (14:13):
To Liz, if Sandy was guilty, mercy would be the
last thing on her mind if she's guilty.
Speaker 5 (14:20):
If she was guilty, why would I want to spend
time with her? Why would I want her in my house?
Why would I want her around me or my kids?
I wouldn't. There's no way in hell.
Speaker 1 (14:33):
Was there any hope you had during the trial process
that she wouldn't be convicted?
Speaker 8 (14:39):
Yeah?
Speaker 5 (14:39):
I mean I thought it was really open and shit case.
I thought that they would present the evidence and they
would people would see what it was and they would
let her go. You know, we thought we were all
going to go home after that.
Speaker 1 (14:55):
Liz leaves the courtroom without her mom while Sandy is
taken to her cell.
Speaker 5 (15:00):
And then you know, having to go home and explain
to my daughter because she's like running down the stairs
and she's like, where's Nana. I was like, oh my god,
I can't.
Speaker 1 (15:21):
Nearly five years after Jim's death, Sandy begins her sentence.
She's taken to the William P. Hobby Unit, a women's
prison between Houston and Dallas.
Speaker 5 (15:33):
It was known as Hobby Hell. I've never heard her
more terrified.
Speaker 1 (15:38):
Sandy's cousin Diana ficit's as often as she can.
Speaker 8 (15:42):
Hobby was an extremely scary place. Sandy got threatened, she
got verbally abused, Like even my sister and I when
we would go visit. It was a scary place just
to go into. The guards were, I don't know, very
hard and cold.
Speaker 1 (16:02):
She's eventually moved to a women's medical facility.
Speaker 8 (16:06):
Carol s Young, I feel better that she's at a
medical unit. We there's still a lot of crazy stories
that Sandy tells us. You know, there's still drama happening,
there's still fights, but I no longer feel that her
life is in danger, Whereas in Hobby I thought we
could get a phone call eighty day say, Sandy's gone
(16:27):
because somebody got in a fight. She was in the
wrong place, wrong time.
Speaker 1 (16:33):
Sandy may be in a better place, but prison is
still prison.
Speaker 5 (16:38):
All I can think about is my mom laying on
this like hard prison bed, and she's alone and suffering
in prison. And I get to I get to travel,
and I get to be with my kids, and I
get to do as I please. It just seems wolly unfair.
Speaker 1 (17:01):
Sandy is still at the medical facility today. I really
wanted to interview her in person or even just by phone,
but my request was denied by the authorities. So I
write to her. I introduced myself and ask her if
she'd be okay answering some questions over prison email. A
couple weeks later, I get a response. She tells me
(17:24):
about the weather, writing, we actually had some snow last week.
That's unheard of in Texas, especially so close to the Gulf.
We only got about eight inches, but that's a lot here. Lol.
Sandy's warm in her messages, almost light as well as
the occasional lol. There's an old school emoji, you know,
(17:46):
the one colon in a parenthesis making a smiley face.
In one email, I tell her I went to go
visit Liz in London, but don't hear back for a
couple of weeks. So I send another and then another,
and then I finally hear back from her. She tells
me she's been called into the supervisor's office to discuss
(18:07):
our messages. She writes, they question me about the podcast.
I told them that I had already informed you that
it wasn't allowed, and I told them to look at
my replies to you. They already had, but they still
wanted to question me.
Speaker 2 (18:21):
Ha.
Speaker 1 (18:23):
She goes on to detail her day to day life
in prison and how difficult it is. Breakfast is at
four am, so I don't go because I can't sleep.
But three or four hours at night, it's very noisy
and things are going on at all hours. You can
hear the inmates talking or arguing in the middle of
the night, or the banging of the bathroom doors, or
(18:46):
the officer yelling for one of the inmates to get
up for one reason or another. I'm not in a cell.
We are in cubicles, so it's all open to noise
and nosy people looking in to see what you have
or what you are doing. Zero privacy. In another message,
she tells me about her memories of Jim, responding to
(19:09):
a question I had asked weeks before. I have many
great memories of Jim, from the time we first met
in high school. His sense of humor, his corny jokes,
which we call Jim jokes. He was a person always
willing to help in whatever way he could. He could
do just about anything, and if he didn't know how,
(19:30):
he would learn. Except for cook, he couldn't cook at all.
I miss him terribly and dream of him often. We
had been married thirty two years, and I know we
would still be together if this terrible ordeal had not happened.
It's an awful nightmare that I haven't woken up from.
All I can do is continue to pray and remain hopeful.
(19:59):
I reach out again. I have to ask her if
she killed Jim and what she thinks happened. I know
it's my job, but after this message, I kind of
can't help but feel like an asshole. If she didn't
do it like she claims, this is just putting salt
on the wound that she's in prison for a murder
she didn't commit, and if she did, well, I guess
(20:22):
I shouldn't feel bad about asking her if she did.
Sandy eventually writes back no, she writes in capitals, then
goes on to repeat some of what she already told
me that she and Jim had a great relationship, adding
that they had plans to travel, go see the Northern Lights,
(20:42):
visit Ireland, see Machu Picchu in Peru. In many ways,
me writing to Sandy isn't your typical interview. In fact,
it really isn't an interview at all. I have so
many questions about what happened that night in December and
how her version differs from what we heard in the trial.
(21:04):
But there's no real back and forth. But you know,
in the end, it actually really doesn't matter what I think.
It's up to the legal system, and right now Sandy's
defense team are refusing to give up.
Speaker 6 (21:20):
We contended that, you know, the verdict was based on
conjecture and speculation, not evidence sufficient to establish her guilt
beyond a reasonable doubt.
Speaker 1 (21:42):
After the shock of losing the trial, Sandy's attorneys Mac
and Allison ccrest regroup and decide to fight on. They're
determined to write what they see as a miscarriage of
justice and get Sandy's verdict overturned.
Speaker 6 (21:57):
We're personally wrapped up in it, and we take it personally.
We know Sandy, we believe in Sandy, and we take
it personally because we're in the middle of it. We're
part of the process, and so we've never you know.
Speaker 1 (22:12):
Shirked that they call for a retrial, but the request
is denied. A panel of three judges uphold Sandy's conviction,
ruling that there was enough evidence to convict her. But
Mac fights on and takes the case to the Texas
Court of Criminal Appeals.
Speaker 5 (22:32):
Oh yay, oh yay, oh yay.
Speaker 7 (22:34):
The Honorable Court of Criminal Appeals is now in session.
Speaker 8 (22:38):
We're ready to hear an argument.
Speaker 1 (22:39):
Almost four years after Sandy's conviction, Mac seacrest is back
in court. Well sort of.
Speaker 10 (22:47):
Good morning to the court. I'm George McCall, say christ junior.
Speaker 1 (22:51):
It's twenty twenty one. You know, you remember the pandemic
and because of it, Mac is presenting his arguments to
a panel of nine senior judges.
Speaker 10 (23:00):
Over zoom, I don't believe the evidence that you have
shows that the state proved that Sandy Milgar killed her husband.
The state proved that she was present.
Speaker 1 (23:12):
Each of the nine judges appear in their own box
on the screen, MAC in another, and then there's a
digital timer in a box all of its own. MAC
has twenty minutes for his arguments. A red light will
warn him when his time is up.
Speaker 10 (23:27):
He was viciously assaulted, he was beaten, consistent with being
hit with a fist, consistent with being kicked. It's just
not plausible under the circumstances that she could have caused
that type of injury.
Speaker 1 (23:43):
As the timer ticks down, he tells what's now a
familiar story. Matt goes through the prosecution's case, arguing it
was built on conjecture, not fact.
Speaker 10 (23:54):
It doesn't even approach that which can safely say comports
with the rudimentary requirements a due process of law.
Speaker 1 (24:03):
The timer light turns red and alarm buzzes, signifying his
time is up.
Speaker 2 (24:09):
Thank you, counseled. The court will stand in recess until
ten o'clock.
Speaker 1 (24:16):
He signs off zoom and waits.
Speaker 6 (24:21):
They sat on it, and sat on it, and then
ultimately they dismissed the case.
Speaker 1 (24:26):
That was in June twenty twenty two. So in Layman's terms,
what does that mean?
Speaker 6 (24:31):
That means we lost on appeal and ultimately the court
did not reduce Sandy's case, so her conviction is affirmed.
What it means is as far as her quote unquote
direct appeal is concerned, it's exhausted.
Speaker 1 (24:49):
I asked Liz how her mom felt about the judge's decision.
Speaker 5 (24:53):
She really got her hopes up, and I kept telling her, like,
you know, ninety percent of the time, this is going
to get to and I don't want you to like
fall into despair if that happens. And of course that happened,
and she just it really hit her, you know, she
sent her to severe depression.
Speaker 1 (25:14):
This really hits Liz too. She feels like she's lost
both of her parents, and now the legal process is
all over. She no longer has the case to distract
her from her feelings of grief.
Speaker 5 (25:27):
Like I had basically obsessed over the case file, Like
when I reached the end, I would just start all
over and see what I'd missed, or I would blow
up all the photos on my computer and look inch
by inch, like all over to see if there were
any clues, missed, any evidence. I don't know if that
(25:49):
was like shock or just knowing that these things had
to be done and I didn't have time to break down.
Speaker 1 (25:59):
Liz finds SLF at rock bottom.
Speaker 5 (26:02):
Once everything got handed over and there was nothing left
to do, that's when it got difficult. And that's I
think when I realized I had really bad PTSD. I
don't even feel human anymore. I miss the person that
I used to be.
Speaker 1 (26:23):
Yeah, if it's okay to talk about, Like, what are
some of the things, like you remember about how you
used to be contrasting with how you are now?
Speaker 8 (26:34):
I am. I was very social.
Speaker 5 (26:38):
I could talk my way in or out of any situation.
Speaker 1 (26:42):
I could still see that now, to be honest, Like,
I can totally see that now.
Speaker 5 (26:47):
But like now I just hate being around big.
Speaker 3 (26:51):
Groups of people.
Speaker 5 (26:52):
I don't trust anyone. I just feel like I'm not
fun anymore. I don't know.
Speaker 1 (26:57):
It's almost like I've died. Do you ever allow yourself
to feel hope?
Speaker 5 (27:04):
No?
Speaker 8 (27:05):
No.
Speaker 1 (27:10):
The ricochet effect of any crime can create fallout, impacting
the lives of not just those who were directly involved,
but they're family and friends. It's not only Liz who
has been impacted, it's all of Sandy and Jim's friends
and relatives, including her cousin Diana.
Speaker 8 (27:31):
Anytime I see a cop car behind me, like I
have a bodily reaction, like I start sweating, I start
I just I have that fear. And even same thing
with Houston, like I used to love Houston because Sandy
and Jim were there. I loved it, And now I
see the downtown skyline and it turns my stomach because
(27:54):
I have the memories of the trial. I was one
of those people that I would hear people say, you
know that people in jail claim they didn't do it right,
Like I'm innocent. I'm innocent, And I've always thought like, yeah, right,
like you're in jail for a reason. I didn't believe
it until this happened to Sandy.
Speaker 1 (28:14):
And Melissa's cousin Marissa, who was there the day Jim
was found. To this day, Uncle Jim is still a
central part of her life.
Speaker 7 (28:24):
I have his ashes actually on a counter in my restroom,
and so I whenever I need some advice, live advice,
because that's what my uncle was really good at, just
life in general. Whenever I'm feeling down, whenever anything really
happy news, I just go to his ashes and I
start talking to the box. And I know that might
(28:45):
sound weird to some people, but it just makes me
feel like he's with us, and he is.
Speaker 1 (28:51):
I know he's with us. What's that expression? The darkest
hour is just before the dawn. Well, Max Seacrest hasn't
quite given up. He picks up the phone and makes
one last call, one last throw of the dice, one
(29:13):
last attempt to help Sandy. But it's a slim chance.
The man he's calling might not be able to help them. Dang,
he might not even pick up the phone.
Speaker 11 (29:25):
I did not know him, so it was kind of
a cold call.
Speaker 1 (29:29):
The person mac rings is Mike Ware, a criminal defense lawyer.
Speaker 11 (29:34):
He talked about how much this case meant to him
and how there was no doubt in his mind that
Sandy was completely innocent.
Speaker 1 (29:43):
Mike founded an organization in Texas which has got forty
people exonerated since two thousand and six.
Speaker 11 (29:50):
He knew of us in our work and wanted us
to take on the case.
Speaker 1 (29:56):
Mike Ware helps people who are all out of options,
but he only takes on a fraction of the cases
that come to him. Will he take on Sandy's.
Speaker 11 (30:06):
We have to, through whatever means, be convinced absolutely that
they are in fact, absolutely innocent, And by that I
mean that either the crime they were convicted of occurred
pretty much as the police, the witnesses, the prosecution says
(30:26):
it happened. It's just they are not the ones who
committed it. It was someone else, or in some cases,
no crime at all was committed by anyone.
Speaker 1 (30:37):
That's next time on hands Tide. You've been listening to
Hands Tide from BBC Studios and iHeart Podcasts. New episodes
will be released weekly, so subscribe or follow on the
(31:00):
Heart Radio app or wherever you get your podcasts so
you don't miss out. If you like the show, please
help us by spreading the word or giving us a
five star review. I'm Maggie Robinson Katz and the producer
is Maggie Latham. Sound design and mix is by Tom Brignell.
(31:20):
Our script consultant is Emma Weatherall production support is from
Dan Martini, Elena Boutang and Mabel Finnegan Wright, and our
production executive is Laura Jordan Raul. The series was developed
by Anya Saunders and Emma Shaw at iHeart. The managing
Executive producer is Christina Everett, and for BBC Studios, the
(31:42):
executive producer is Joe Kent. James Cook is the Creative
Director a Factual for BBC Studios Audio and the Director
of Audio at BBC Studios is Richard Knight.
BBCGDAS. Hey, Hi'm Maggie. Just a quick heads up before
we start. The series does contain some descriptions of violence
and deals with adult themes. We're live at the Harris
County Criminal Courthouse.
Speaker 2 (00:21):
Channel twos.
Speaker 3 (00:22):
Lee for Lishi is joining us live downtown with what
we're learning from the courtroom as we wait for a
verdict in this case.
Speaker 1 (00:28):
Lee, So, the jury is expected to deliberate for only
a few more minutes until about five point fifteen, then
they'll be back at it again tomorrow morning. It's a
hot and humid afternoon in late August twenty seventeen, and
the court reporters wait en mass for the climax to
a story they've been following for years.
Speaker 4 (00:48):
Jen, we are on verdict watch in the case against
fifty seven year old Sandra Melgar. The jury started deliberating
yesterday evening, continued to deliberate this morning, and in fact,
just moments ago, took a break. This is a case.
Speaker 1 (01:00):
After seven and a half hours split over two days,
the jury reached a verdict in the State of Texas
versus Sandra Jean Melgar. As they file back into the courtroom,
Liz scrutinizes their faces looking for clues.
Speaker 5 (01:16):
When they all were called back after they reach their verdict,
I already knew why because people were crying. There were
a few people who were crying. To me, I was like,
you're not going to cry if you're going to say
someone's not guilty.
Speaker 1 (01:32):
Sandy's attorney, Max Seacrest, is also studying each member of
the jury.
Speaker 6 (01:37):
Normally, if you're going to prevail, they'll look at you.
They may even grin. Like this jury came in, not
one of them looked us in the eye.
Speaker 1 (01:48):
With everyone back in the courtroom, one of the jurors
hands a slip of paper to the bailiff, who passes
it to the judge. They've reached a unanimous verdict. The
defend Sandra Jean Melgar, is ordered to stand. She shakily
moves to her feet, her body supported by her thin
wooden cane. The judge clears her throat and reads from
(02:12):
the slip of paper. We the jury find the defendant,
Sandra Jean Melgar, guilty of murder as charged in the indictment.
Sandy lets out a cry of disbelief and falls back
into her chair. For Sandy's friends and family, it feels
(02:35):
like the oxygen has been stripped from the room.
Speaker 6 (02:38):
They were devastated, crying and it was just a horrible day.
Speaker 1 (02:46):
There's Sandy's niece Marissa, who was there when she was found.
Speaker 7 (02:51):
My heart just sunk into my stomach. I could not
believe this was happening to her because there was just
no way, no way. We knew, we knew that they
got it wrong.
Speaker 1 (03:03):
There's Tammy Armstrong, who consoled Sandy after her police interview.
Speaker 2 (03:08):
We're in such shock and I mean dead silence when
they read that verdict.
Speaker 1 (03:14):
And there's Diana, the cousin who was more like a sister.
Speaker 8 (03:18):
Sandy started crying immediately, Liz started crying. We all started crying.
Liz ran to her to give her like one last
time before they left, before they took her away, and
then as soon as that happened, Liz fell to the ground.
Speaker 1 (03:37):
For Liz, it's all a blur, like something out of
a horrible nightmare.
Speaker 5 (03:43):
It just felt like an out of body experience. And
I just remember, like my husband just like grabbed onto
me really tightly, and it's like holding onto me and
hugging me, and I kept telling her like it's gonna
be okay, like we're going to figure it out. I
had no idea what I was doing, or like what
I was even saying, or what that meant.
Speaker 1 (04:04):
What do you remember how your mom took it?
Speaker 5 (04:07):
I mean she was just in tears.
Speaker 2 (04:10):
She was just.
Speaker 5 (04:12):
I mean, it was devastating for everybody.
Speaker 1 (04:16):
But it's not over yet. It's down to the jury
to decide how long Sandy will spend in prison, and
there's a chance she'll never get out. I'm Maggie Robinson
Katz And from BBC Studios and iHeart Podcasts. This is
(04:37):
Hands Tied, episode seven, after Shock.
Speaker 2 (04:49):
I think I had heard enough, felt enough that I
truly believe that she did it.
Speaker 1 (04:56):
You remember Aaron Day, he was on the jury.
Speaker 2 (04:59):
The didn't had the ability to do it, even though
she doesn't remember doing it. I think that was a
convenient defense. Oh I forgot or I don't remember.
Speaker 1 (05:10):
One of the first things they did when they entered
the jury room was take a quick count. They'd heard
the prosecution, they heard the defense. Who did they believe.
Five of the jurors thought Sandy was guilty, four innocent,
and three were undecided.
Speaker 2 (05:26):
I was on the guilty side. From the moment we
sat down, we talked about it. We were each given
time to discuss our feelings and our position. There was
a lot of I don't know, I need to think through.
There was so much information and there were some people going, yes,
she did it. She was say no, she didn't.
Speaker 1 (05:44):
And then how did you come to reach the unanimous verdict?
Speaker 2 (05:47):
We looked at a lot of the evidence again, we
looked at a lot of the discussion, We read transcripts,
we went over testimony, how we felt about the testimony.
Speaker 1 (05:57):
Together, the jurors workshopped Sandy's future.
Speaker 2 (06:00):
What evidence could prove that she is innocent of the crime.
There was hardly nothing there. That's why we kept going
to the guilty. She was there and she had the
time and ability to do it, and the ones that
were unsure listened to us, they changed their mind and
they deemed her guilty. And so then we had to say, well,
(06:23):
we'll have to tell the world how we feel.
Speaker 1 (06:27):
So what does Aaron think happened that night?
Speaker 2 (06:30):
Witnesses painted them as a happy couple to the public,
but I don't think she was ever really happy because
all the attention that was paid to her husband. He
was an elder within the church, and being a Latin American.
He was very charismatic. I think the murder was an accident.
(06:50):
I don't think she purposely tried to murder him, but
I think that anger, after years of feeling that way
and not discussing it, came out in this alcohol and
drug filled rage, and it went too far and she
killed it.
Speaker 1 (07:06):
Honestly, I'm surprised to hear Aaron say this, because when
I wrote the court documents, I'm not sure the evidence
supports that theory. Sure, Sandy did drink that night. She
said she had a pina colada with her meal and
two Vodkas in sprite in the jacuzzi, but also told
detectives that she didn't finish the second one. But drugs,
(07:27):
she was all like.
Speaker 2 (07:28):
A myriad of like two. I think we're are two
very mental drugs for her. Lupus are very powerful drugs.
And then she had the migraine medicine, which in my
mind would be one that you don't drink alcohol with.
But that night they had been out drinking.
Speaker 1 (07:47):
Did they go through the various medications that she was
on in the side effect that they could have.
Speaker 8 (07:52):
No.
Speaker 2 (07:52):
I don't think the defense or prosecution brought any of
that up. They just mentioned that she was on drugs.
Speaker 1 (08:00):
But what about what was said in court? If this
is a case about stories, it seems the prosecutions made
more sense to Aarin. Sandy was unhappy, she needed to
get out of her marriage, and therefore resorted to murder,
while the defense's argument of a home invasion gone wrong
just didn't add up.
Speaker 2 (08:21):
They failed to tell me or make me believe she
didn't do it. So I'm like, oh, you're not offering
me any Oh, yeah, there was somebody that came in
the house, Well prove it. Where's your proof? Do you
have any video that shows somebody going to the house,
any footprints, any fingerprints, any evidence that somebody was there?
Did the body have anything on it? The prosecution and
(08:44):
the investigators found.
Speaker 1 (08:45):
Nothing to Max Seacrest, Sandy's defense attorney. This is a
fundamental misunderstanding of the justice system. Innocent until proven guilty.
The burden of prooflies with the prosecution. It's for them
to prove someone is guilty, not the defense to prove
their innocence.
Speaker 6 (09:06):
I don't want to ditch a jury. I respect their
verdict here, but I obviously don't agree with it. I
can't fathom how a group of folks conscientiously could believe
beyond a reasonable doubt that the prosecution had proved its case.
Speaker 3 (09:29):
I mean, this is an absolute tragedy.
Speaker 1 (09:32):
Alison Seacrest, Max niece and fellow attorney.
Speaker 3 (09:36):
She lost the love of her life, her best friend,
her caretaker. I mean, Jim took care of her, He
drove her around. There were times where she couldn't even
drive because of her seizure disorder and the impact that
this had on her daughter and not being able to
see her grandchildren grow up. I mean, it's just really wrong.
Speaker 1 (10:01):
What went wrong in the trial? Then?
Speaker 6 (10:04):
You know that's Uh, that's only a question that Alison
and I ask ourselves every day. I rarely have a
day that I don't think about Sandy. Uh. And it's
it's hard, it's hard to answer.
Speaker 1 (10:24):
Max's voice catches. He takes a moment to compose himself.
It's clear the whole trial has taken a toll on him,
and he's still trying to make sense of how it
all played out. The impact of the choices he made.
Walk me through the decision to not bring Sandy on
(10:46):
the stand to give evidence.
Speaker 6 (10:48):
Well, that is an area that I really can't discuss
because of attorney client privilege, but I will say this,
it was our belief before we tried the case. It's
our belief now that obviously she had no burden. So
that was a decision made by us, by the lawyers.
Speaker 5 (11:09):
I said, maybe you should testify, and she said, I'll
have a seizure on the stand. I can't because she
gets when she's stressed, you know, or too tired, doesn't
get enough sleep, you know, she will have a seizure.
I said, no, just have a seizure, Just let them
see it. Like they don't believe you, Just stop picking
your medicine and have a seizure. She's like, no, I
don't want to prolong this any longer.
Speaker 2 (11:31):
I often wonder how I would have felt that she
did take the stand and said I didn't do it,
look at the jury and say I didn't do it.
Was that assuade me? It might have. I mean, I
can't tell because she didn't choose to tell me directly.
She did not murder her husband.
Speaker 1 (11:48):
And though hindsight is always easier in the rear view mirror,
Sandy and her defense team have to look to the
future embrace for the jury sentencing. It's the day after
(12:09):
Sandy was found guilty. We're back in the courtroom and
it's time for sentencing. Her attorney, Maxycres, asks for leniency.
He describes Sandy as a good, caring, loving wife with
no criminal history and innocent of the crime she's been
(12:29):
convicted of.
Speaker 9 (12:31):
And that's exactly why we're here today, because they drank
the kool aid of Sandra Melgar.
Speaker 1 (12:38):
Prosecutor Colleen Barnett, her word, spoken by an actor, requests
an appropriate sentence for someone she believes as a calculating killer.
Speaker 9 (12:48):
She's even manipulated her lawyers. She's manipulated her church group,
She's manipulated most of the people that she goes around
with who believe that she is in.
Speaker 2 (13:02):
When they made us decide how many years in prison
she had to spend, there was a lot of controversy there,
being in her age and being her physical illnesses. Some
people wanted to give her the minimum time, some people
wanted to give her the maximum time.
Speaker 1 (13:17):
There is a minimum of five years in prison, with
the maximum sentence being life. But Sandy is fifty seven
years old, so there's a very real chance she could
die in prison.
Speaker 2 (13:29):
So we ended up somewhere in the middle.
Speaker 1 (13:34):
Sandy melgar Is sentenced to twenty seven years behind bars.
How did that feel hearing the sentencing of twenty seven years?
Speaker 5 (13:47):
They felt that twenty seven years was showing her mercy
because with good behavior, you can get out in half
the time, So that would be like thirteen and a
half years, and so they felt that she would be
like seventy something and she could still have some time
with her grandchildren before she died, and that that was
(14:09):
their bit of mercy for her.
Speaker 1 (14:13):
To Liz, if Sandy was guilty, mercy would be the
last thing on her mind if she's guilty.
Speaker 5 (14:20):
If she was guilty, why would I want to spend
time with her? Why would I want her in my house?
Why would I want her around me or my kids?
I wouldn't. There's no way in hell.
Speaker 1 (14:33):
Was there any hope you had during the trial process
that she wouldn't be convicted?
Speaker 8 (14:39):
Yeah?
Speaker 5 (14:39):
I mean I thought it was really open and shit case.
I thought that they would present the evidence and they
would people would see what it was and they would
let her go. You know, we thought we were all
going to go home after that.
Speaker 1 (14:55):
Liz leaves the courtroom without her mom while Sandy is
taken to her cell.
Speaker 5 (15:00):
And then you know, having to go home and explain
to my daughter because she's like running down the stairs
and she's like, where's Nana. I was like, oh my god,
I can't.
Speaker 1 (15:21):
Nearly five years after Jim's death, Sandy begins her sentence.
She's taken to the William P. Hobby Unit, a women's
prison between Houston and Dallas.
Speaker 5 (15:33):
It was known as Hobby Hell. I've never heard her
more terrified.
Speaker 1 (15:38):
Sandy's cousin Diana ficit's as often as she can.
Speaker 8 (15:42):
Hobby was an extremely scary place. Sandy got threatened, she
got verbally abused, Like even my sister and I when
we would go visit. It was a scary place just
to go into. The guards were, I don't know, very
hard and cold.
Speaker 1 (16:02):
She's eventually moved to a women's medical facility.
Speaker 8 (16:06):
Carol s Young, I feel better that she's at a
medical unit. We there's still a lot of crazy stories
that Sandy tells us. You know, there's still drama happening,
there's still fights, but I no longer feel that her
life is in danger, Whereas in Hobby I thought we
could get a phone call eighty day say, Sandy's gone
(16:27):
because somebody got in a fight. She was in the
wrong place, wrong time.
Speaker 1 (16:33):
Sandy may be in a better place, but prison is
still prison.
Speaker 5 (16:38):
All I can think about is my mom laying on
this like hard prison bed, and she's alone and suffering
in prison. And I get to I get to travel,
and I get to be with my kids, and I
get to do as I please. It just seems wolly unfair.
Speaker 1 (17:01):
Sandy is still at the medical facility today. I really
wanted to interview her in person or even just by phone,
but my request was denied by the authorities. So I
write to her. I introduced myself and ask her if
she'd be okay answering some questions over prison email. A
couple weeks later, I get a response. She tells me
(17:24):
about the weather, writing, we actually had some snow last week.
That's unheard of in Texas, especially so close to the Gulf.
We only got about eight inches, but that's a lot here. Lol.
Sandy's warm in her messages, almost light as well as
the occasional lol. There's an old school emoji, you know,
(17:46):
the one colon in a parenthesis making a smiley face.
In one email, I tell her I went to go
visit Liz in London, but don't hear back for a
couple of weeks. So I send another and then another,
and then I finally hear back from her. She tells
me she's been called into the supervisor's office to discuss
(18:07):
our messages. She writes, they question me about the podcast.
I told them that I had already informed you that
it wasn't allowed, and I told them to look at
my replies to you. They already had, but they still
wanted to question me.
Speaker 2 (18:21):
Ha.
Speaker 1 (18:23):
She goes on to detail her day to day life
in prison and how difficult it is. Breakfast is at
four am, so I don't go because I can't sleep.
But three or four hours at night, it's very noisy
and things are going on at all hours. You can
hear the inmates talking or arguing in the middle of
the night, or the banging of the bathroom doors, or
(18:46):
the officer yelling for one of the inmates to get
up for one reason or another. I'm not in a cell.
We are in cubicles, so it's all open to noise
and nosy people looking in to see what you have
or what you are doing. Zero privacy. In another message,
she tells me about her memories of Jim, responding to
(19:09):
a question I had asked weeks before. I have many
great memories of Jim, from the time we first met
in high school. His sense of humor, his corny jokes,
which we call Jim jokes. He was a person always
willing to help in whatever way he could. He could
do just about anything, and if he didn't know how,
(19:30):
he would learn. Except for cook, he couldn't cook at all.
I miss him terribly and dream of him often. We
had been married thirty two years, and I know we
would still be together if this terrible ordeal had not happened.
It's an awful nightmare that I haven't woken up from.
All I can do is continue to pray and remain hopeful.
(19:59):
I reach out again. I have to ask her if
she killed Jim and what she thinks happened. I know
it's my job, but after this message, I kind of
can't help but feel like an asshole. If she didn't
do it like she claims, this is just putting salt
on the wound that she's in prison for a murder
she didn't commit, and if she did, well, I guess
(20:22):
I shouldn't feel bad about asking her if she did.
Sandy eventually writes back no, she writes in capitals, then
goes on to repeat some of what she already told
me that she and Jim had a great relationship, adding
that they had plans to travel, go see the Northern Lights,
(20:42):
visit Ireland, see Machu Picchu in Peru. In many ways,
me writing to Sandy isn't your typical interview. In fact,
it really isn't an interview at all. I have so
many questions about what happened that night in December and
how her version differs from what we heard in the trial.
(21:04):
But there's no real back and forth. But you know,
in the end, it actually really doesn't matter what I think.
It's up to the legal system, and right now Sandy's
defense team are refusing to give up.
Speaker 6 (21:20):
We contended that, you know, the verdict was based on
conjecture and speculation, not evidence sufficient to establish her guilt
beyond a reasonable doubt.
Speaker 1 (21:42):
After the shock of losing the trial, Sandy's attorneys Mac
and Allison ccrest regroup and decide to fight on. They're
determined to write what they see as a miscarriage of
justice and get Sandy's verdict overturned.
Speaker 6 (21:57):
We're personally wrapped up in it, and we take it personally.
We know Sandy, we believe in Sandy, and we take
it personally because we're in the middle of it. We're
part of the process, and so we've never you know.
Speaker 1 (22:12):
Shirked that they call for a retrial, but the request
is denied. A panel of three judges uphold Sandy's conviction,
ruling that there was enough evidence to convict her. But
Mac fights on and takes the case to the Texas
Court of Criminal Appeals.
Speaker 5 (22:32):
Oh yay, oh yay, oh yay.
Speaker 7 (22:34):
The Honorable Court of Criminal Appeals is now in session.
Speaker 8 (22:38):
We're ready to hear an argument.
Speaker 1 (22:39):
Almost four years after Sandy's conviction, Mac seacrest is back
in court. Well sort of.
Speaker 10 (22:47):
Good morning to the court. I'm George McCall, say christ junior.
Speaker 1 (22:51):
It's twenty twenty one. You know, you remember the pandemic
and because of it, Mac is presenting his arguments to
a panel of nine senior judges.
Speaker 10 (23:00):
Over zoom, I don't believe the evidence that you have
shows that the state proved that Sandy Milgar killed her husband.
The state proved that she was present.
Speaker 1 (23:12):
Each of the nine judges appear in their own box
on the screen, MAC in another, and then there's a
digital timer in a box all of its own. MAC
has twenty minutes for his arguments. A red light will
warn him when his time is up.
Speaker 10 (23:27):
He was viciously assaulted, he was beaten, consistent with being
hit with a fist, consistent with being kicked. It's just
not plausible under the circumstances that she could have caused
that type of injury.
Speaker 1 (23:43):
As the timer ticks down, he tells what's now a
familiar story. Matt goes through the prosecution's case, arguing it
was built on conjecture, not fact.
Speaker 10 (23:54):
It doesn't even approach that which can safely say comports
with the rudimentary requirements a due process of law.
Speaker 1 (24:03):
The timer light turns red and alarm buzzes, signifying his
time is up.
Speaker 2 (24:09):
Thank you, counseled. The court will stand in recess until
ten o'clock.
Speaker 1 (24:16):
He signs off zoom and waits.
Speaker 6 (24:21):
They sat on it, and sat on it, and then
ultimately they dismissed the case.
Speaker 1 (24:26):
That was in June twenty twenty two. So in Layman's terms,
what does that mean?
Speaker 6 (24:31):
That means we lost on appeal and ultimately the court
did not reduce Sandy's case, so her conviction is affirmed.
What it means is as far as her quote unquote
direct appeal is concerned, it's exhausted.
Speaker 1 (24:49):
I asked Liz how her mom felt about the judge's decision.
Speaker 5 (24:53):
She really got her hopes up, and I kept telling her, like,
you know, ninety percent of the time, this is going
to get to and I don't want you to like
fall into despair if that happens. And of course that happened,
and she just it really hit her, you know, she
sent her to severe depression.
Speaker 1 (25:14):
This really hits Liz too. She feels like she's lost
both of her parents, and now the legal process is
all over. She no longer has the case to distract
her from her feelings of grief.
Speaker 5 (25:27):
Like I had basically obsessed over the case file, Like
when I reached the end, I would just start all
over and see what I'd missed, or I would blow
up all the photos on my computer and look inch
by inch, like all over to see if there were
any clues, missed, any evidence. I don't know if that
(25:49):
was like shock or just knowing that these things had
to be done and I didn't have time to break down.
Speaker 1 (25:59):
Liz finds SLF at rock bottom.
Speaker 5 (26:02):
Once everything got handed over and there was nothing left
to do, that's when it got difficult. And that's I
think when I realized I had really bad PTSD. I
don't even feel human anymore. I miss the person that
I used to be.
Speaker 1 (26:23):
Yeah, if it's okay to talk about, Like, what are
some of the things, like you remember about how you
used to be contrasting with how you are now?
Speaker 8 (26:34):
I am. I was very social.
Speaker 5 (26:38):
I could talk my way in or out of any situation.
Speaker 1 (26:42):
I could still see that now, to be honest, Like,
I can totally see that now.
Speaker 5 (26:47):
But like now I just hate being around big.
Speaker 3 (26:51):
Groups of people.
Speaker 5 (26:52):
I don't trust anyone. I just feel like I'm not
fun anymore. I don't know.
Speaker 1 (26:57):
It's almost like I've died. Do you ever allow yourself
to feel hope?
Speaker 5 (27:04):
No?
Speaker 8 (27:05):
No.
Speaker 1 (27:10):
The ricochet effect of any crime can create fallout, impacting
the lives of not just those who were directly involved,
but they're family and friends. It's not only Liz who
has been impacted, it's all of Sandy and Jim's friends
and relatives, including her cousin Diana.
Speaker 8 (27:31):
Anytime I see a cop car behind me, like I
have a bodily reaction, like I start sweating, I start
I just I have that fear. And even same thing
with Houston, like I used to love Houston because Sandy
and Jim were there. I loved it, And now I
see the downtown skyline and it turns my stomach because
(27:54):
I have the memories of the trial. I was one
of those people that I would hear people say, you
know that people in jail claim they didn't do it right,
Like I'm innocent. I'm innocent, And I've always thought like, yeah, right,
like you're in jail for a reason. I didn't believe
it until this happened to Sandy.
Speaker 1 (28:14):
And Melissa's cousin Marissa, who was there the day Jim
was found. To this day, Uncle Jim is still a
central part of her life.
Speaker 7 (28:24):
I have his ashes actually on a counter in my restroom,
and so I whenever I need some advice, live advice,
because that's what my uncle was really good at, just
life in general. Whenever I'm feeling down, whenever anything really
happy news, I just go to his ashes and I
start talking to the box. And I know that might
(28:45):
sound weird to some people, but it just makes me
feel like he's with us, and he is.
Speaker 1 (28:51):
I know he's with us. What's that expression? The darkest
hour is just before the dawn. Well, Max Seacrest hasn't
quite given up. He picks up the phone and makes
one last call, one last throw of the dice, one
(29:13):
last attempt to help Sandy. But it's a slim chance.
The man he's calling might not be able to help them. Dang,
he might not even pick up the phone.
Speaker 11 (29:25):
I did not know him, so it was kind of
a cold call.
Speaker 1 (29:29):
The person mac rings is Mike Ware, a criminal defense lawyer.
Speaker 11 (29:34):
He talked about how much this case meant to him
and how there was no doubt in his mind that
Sandy was completely innocent.
Speaker 1 (29:43):
Mike founded an organization in Texas which has got forty
people exonerated since two thousand and six.
Speaker 11 (29:50):
He knew of us in our work and wanted us
to take on the case.
Speaker 1 (29:56):
Mike Ware helps people who are all out of options,
but he only takes on a fraction of the cases
that come to him. Will he take on Sandy's.
Speaker 11 (30:06):
We have to, through whatever means, be convinced absolutely that
they are in fact, absolutely innocent, And by that I
mean that either the crime they were convicted of occurred
pretty much as the police, the witnesses, the prosecution says
(30:26):
it happened. It's just they are not the ones who
committed it. It was someone else, or in some cases,
no crime at all was committed by anyone.
Speaker 1 (30:37):
That's next time on hands Tide. You've been listening to
Hands Tide from BBC Studios and iHeart Podcasts. New episodes
will be released weekly, so subscribe or follow on the
(31:00):
Heart Radio app or wherever you get your podcasts so
you don't miss out. If you like the show, please
help us by spreading the word or giving us a
five star review. I'm Maggie Robinson Katz and the producer
is Maggie Latham. Sound design and mix is by Tom Brignell.
(31:20):
Our script consultant is Emma Weatherall production support is from
Dan Martini, Elena Boutang and Mabel Finnegan Wright, and our
production executive is Laura Jordan Raul. The series was developed
by Anya Saunders and Emma Shaw at iHeart. The managing
Executive producer is Christina Everett, and for BBC Studios, the
(31:42):
executive producer is Joe Kent. James Cook is the Creative
Director a Factual for BBC Studios Audio and the Director
of Audio at BBC Studios is Richard Knight.
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