September 24, 2025 • 30 mins
It’s been thirteen years since the murder of Lizz's father and she no longer recognizes the person she has become. But she hasn't given up, and is still fighting for justice every single day.
Her spirit, her father's and those of her ancestors give her the strength to keep going, because this story isn’t over.
Host: Maggie Robinson Katz
Producers: Maggie Robinson Katz and Maggie Latham
Script consultant: Emma Weatherill
Music research by Aisha Antwi
Sound designer: Tom Brignell
Production support from: Dan Marchini, Elaina Boateng and Mabel Finnegan-Wright
Managing Executive Producer (iHeart): Cristina Everett
Executive Producer (BBC Studios): Joe Kent
Hands Tied is a BBC Studios production for iHeartPodcasts
At iHeart podcasts:
David Wasserman is the Brand Marketing Manager and
Ally Cantor-Graber is the director of marketing
At BBC Studios Audio:
Micahel Fadda is the editorial standards advisor
Ella Squire is Podcast Marketing Manager
Lucy Matthias is Commercial Lead
Helen Penbury is the Commercial & Business Development Director
James Cooke is the creative director of Factual for Audio
Richard Knight is the Director of Audio
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
BBC Studios. Hey, I'm Maggie.
Speaker 2 (00:08):
Before we begin, I just want to flag that this
episode includes some very strong language, contains some descriptions of violence,
and deals with adult themes.
Speaker 3 (00:26):
We have a large painting of a astronaut laying in
a field of roses, and we bought it while we
were in the US, while I was working on SpaceX's.
Speaker 1 (00:37):
First scrude flights, which is a huge, huge molestone. Can
you speak a little bit about what you did at SpaceX?
Speaker 3 (00:43):
So I was part of the software team and worked
on well across the time there, worked on everything from
the flight vehicles like you know, launching Falcon Dragon and
so on, and myself and a few of the other.
Speaker 2 (00:54):
It's another drizzly and cold day in London, Okay, to
be fair to January. But still I'm sitting across from
Liz and her husband Anthony American versus English. Question Anthony
or Anthony? What's the diff Okay?
Speaker 4 (01:13):
So he says Anthony. I guess that's the British way
of saying it. But I say Anthony, because do you
ever just.
Speaker 1 (01:21):
Like, Oh, I'm just gonna call you Tony.
Speaker 4 (01:23):
He hates that, but I won't.
Speaker 2 (01:26):
Call him tone yeah, or aunt.
Speaker 4 (01:28):
He doesn't like that one either, but I did. I
did get an aunt tattoo. Cute.
Speaker 2 (01:33):
I love it. I'll follow Liz Anthony it is. Anthony
continues telling me about working with SpaceX.
Speaker 3 (01:41):
Through manufacturing satellites and the terminal to the Starling network,
and yeah, lots of different software problems over the four years.
Speaker 5 (01:48):
Amazing.
Speaker 1 (01:50):
I play in a Dolly part and cover band. I
wouldn't be able to do that.
Speaker 2 (01:57):
He's being nice, but after getting to know Liz, it's
clear she needs to be with someone as brilliant as her.
The rac Tramp, Stamp and All. Liz and Anthony met
when they were teens. Anthony was working at a pub
in Oxford and Liz was visiting with a cousin. He
was smitten immediately.
Speaker 3 (02:18):
I remember thinking Liz was the most beautiful girl I've
ever seen, very distinctly, which yeah, she would cringe if
I tell that's through and here we are, but yeah,
really captivated by her.
Speaker 2 (02:27):
Liz does cringe when Anthony says this, letting out a
soft laugh under her breath. Anthony and Liz stayed in touch,
took a trip through Italy together, where they fell in love.
Then later married and had kids. They're now settled in
acute Victorian townhouse in Wimbledon, South London. The robot Anthony
(02:49):
and their son built on the bookshelf Erubik's cubes dashed
between couch cushions. Anthony has been there through every moment
in Liz's life, including the moment she found out her
dad had been killed.
Speaker 1 (03:05):
I just from the shock. But it's just like kind
of like getting hit by a cart.
Speaker 3 (03:09):
You just have this thing come at you, this piece
of information that you couldn't have expected, and you're out
of your.
Speaker 1 (03:14):
Reference frame for like what normal is.
Speaker 3 (03:18):
All of this stuff happened at once, and it was
like a very super chaotic time.
Speaker 1 (03:22):
Yeah, it was pure chaos.
Speaker 2 (03:25):
He flew back to Houston with Liz and did his
best to support her through those first Heroin days.
Speaker 3 (03:31):
It's like extreme grief, like overwhelming shock that this is
real and not some horrible nightmare, and it's just sort
of an extended waking disaster where everyone is reeling in
different ways at different times.
Speaker 2 (03:47):
I ask what he thinks about the case.
Speaker 3 (03:49):
I would say it's unambiguous to me that she's wrongly convicted,
and it's overwhelmingly obvious that this wouldn't have gone the
way that it did, and to have gone through everything,
you know, the years leading up to the court case,
the court case itself, it's staggering that this level of
(04:11):
incompetence was allowed to be played out. And it really
demonstrates that you can do everything right and you can
get fucked and that's what happened here, and Sandy just
tried to do everything correctly.
Speaker 2 (04:26):
He's angry at a system that has taken Sandy away
from her family for a crime he believes she didn't commit.
Speaker 3 (04:34):
When you kind of think about your life that could change,
like that is just such a fracture to the way
that things happen right normally, you would have been going
back for you know, family events, reunions, holidays, whatever it
might be. And things look different after. They look different
for you, they look different for your kids, they look
different from the extended family. And yeah, he's just kind
of like dealing with a new reality kind of after
(04:56):
a loss like that.
Speaker 1 (04:58):
How do you even process the last it's multiple.
Speaker 3 (05:00):
Losses, Yeah, it is even now I think about it, so,
you know, I think about that, like the children don't
have the life that they would have had, otherwise and
knowing him, knowing Jim as their grandfather.
Speaker 1 (05:12):
Yeah, it's difficult.
Speaker 3 (05:14):
I think now of like the things that I do
today that I know that he would have been interested in,
and you kind of miss the dynamic that could have been,
which is a sentiment.
Speaker 2 (05:25):
I completely understand grieving a reality that never came, but
you were promised it. I remember thinking this after my
dad died. If I had kids, they would never know
their grandpa. And while Sandy is still alive, their kids
can't spend any time with her.
Speaker 1 (05:45):
You know, I see a very direct pain in my daughter.
Speaker 3 (05:48):
So she was young enough to have had Sandy around
early on in her life and be a significant figure.
That's still a significant figure today, but it's very difficult
for her to talk about it, to think about it,
to write letters, because of very acute pain.
Speaker 2 (06:04):
But he says it's Liz who carries the pain most acutely.
She's changed so much over the past few years.
Speaker 3 (06:13):
When we first moved to England, you know, Lizabeth the
person who would talk to the stranger on the train
and then you know, by the time you get to
the destination, you're going to a party with them, Whereas
I would be the person who's like noise canceling headphones on,
don't even.
Speaker 1 (06:26):
Talk to me, let alone sad me.
Speaker 3 (06:28):
So that dynamic definitely changed for her because you know
everything that she experienced.
Speaker 2 (06:35):
Liz has told me about this past version of herself,
and she often talks about how her life has split
in two. There's the Liz before Jim's murder and the
Liz after. Where the Liz before was vivacious and gregarious,
the Liz now is closed off, a gooraphobic, and can
(06:56):
have trouble getting out of bed. But in meeting Liz,
I can see both sides. I think she is whip smart, funny,
and mischievous. We'd laugh together on her couch or on
a trip on the tube. But during the making of
this podcast, I experienced my own loss. My mother, who
(07:18):
long suffered from Parkinson's and later dementia, passed away this year,
and out of all of the messages I got, it
was Liz who I felt understood the indescribable pain of
losing a parent the most. She sent me the most
beautiful messages filled with empathy because she walks this grief
(07:39):
every single day, and in many ways, she's lost both
of her parents. Liz really didn't have to do that,
but nonetheless I'm grateful. It's really hard to talk about death,
but it is something that can unite us. While I
don't know the exact pain Liz and through I can
(08:01):
understand through my own a tiny sliver of her pain.
And I mean really really tiny sliver. Because whether you
believe that Sandy is innocent or guilty, you cannot ignore
the immense loss that permeates every facet of the story.
(08:23):
But the story isn't over yet.
Speaker 3 (08:27):
I feel incredibly appreciative that you have an organization like
the Innocence of Projects supporting you, because, frankly speaking, to
try and deal with this yourself like it feels impossible.
Speaker 1 (08:38):
It just feels like you resigned to accept that you've
been crushed. So you do feel hope, Yeah.
Speaker 4 (08:44):
I feel like there's a little glimmer of hope. We
might not get the results we want, but at least
we had the heavyweights behind us, and at least it
gives us a fighting chance.
Speaker 2 (08:57):
I'm Maggie Robinson Katz and from BBC's Studios and iHeart Podcasts.
This is Hands Tied, Episode eight Hope.
Speaker 6 (09:17):
The Innocence Project of Texas is a nonprofit that I
co founded back in two thousand and six, and ultimately
we strive to exonerate the innocent people that we have
identified and get them out of prison.
Speaker 2 (09:35):
This is Mike Ware who, after getting a call from
Sandy's legal teams, started to review her case.
Speaker 1 (09:41):
He dove headfirst.
Speaker 2 (09:43):
Into Sandy's file, reviewing the various appeals court transcripts, He
talked to Liz and met Sandy, and has come to
the conclusion that.
Speaker 6 (09:54):
The accusations were unique and on their face, to me,
ridiculous and preposterous.
Speaker 2 (10:02):
Why do you think that Jerry then believed it?
Speaker 6 (10:06):
Sometimes I think people prefer to believe the more elaborate
and interesting story rather than the more logical and perhaps
less interesting story. Perhaps it was more attractive to believe
this crazy story that the prosecutors spun than it was
(10:27):
to believe that someone or somebody invaded the home and
committed this murder.
Speaker 2 (10:33):
So Mike and the Innocence Project of Texas agree to
take on Sandy's case. But it's not going to be easy.
Speaker 6 (10:42):
Despite all the rhetoric, It's so much easier to convict
a completely innocent person than it is to exonerate a
completely innocent person once they've been convicted.
Speaker 2 (10:53):
It's almost a se Saphean task to try and get
a jury verdict overturned. The only option left is for
them to file a writ of habeas corpus, which is
essentially asking a federal court to review Sandy's case because
they believe that she is unfairly imprisoned. To succeed, they
need to come up with clear and convincing new evidence.
(11:15):
They can't rehash arguments made during the trial or appeal.
Speaker 6 (11:20):
There are only very limited grounds you can raise in
a habeas corpus. It's very tricky to even get heard because,
as the courts will tell you time and time again,
you know, finality of judgment is very important to our system.
Speaker 2 (11:37):
The odds are stacked against them, and Mike knows this well.
The prosecution may have told a better story that Sandy
was a bitter housewife who killed Jim, tied and locked
herself in a closet. Mike and his team hope that
science will tell a different story, and they're relying on DNA.
Speaker 5 (12:00):
Originally, investigators collected over one hundred items of evidence to
be tested for DNA.
Speaker 2 (12:06):
This is Mike's colleague, attorney Chase Baumgartner, who also happens
to be a forensic scientist.
Speaker 5 (12:13):
Part of this investigation we're doing now, and part of
the story of Sandy's case, is the evolution of DNA testing.
Speaker 2 (12:22):
On the night Jim's body was found, the police swapped
the crime scene for DNA. They also bagged up evidence
for further testing, like the cord used to tie Sandy up, clothing,
and the murder weapon, but the test results were inconclusive.
Speaker 5 (12:41):
They generated all this data and in most instances they
just said, it's too complicated, it's too low level, so
we can't tell you anything about the DNA profiles we developed,
and has left us kind of in the dark of
what all this evidence really points to and what it
could implicate.
Speaker 2 (12:59):
Meaning it's either a sample with too many people's DNA
mixed together or sample without enough DNA in it. The
original testing was done more than a decade ago, and
science has progressed since then. Now the Innocence Project of
Texas is getting the samples reanalyzed and the hope this
will throw up something new, possibly the new evidence they
(13:21):
need to get Sandy's case back in court. And they've
got news. They asked Liz to jump on a call,
and I'm.
Speaker 7 (13:28):
Really looking forward to hearing those.
Speaker 6 (13:39):
Liz, Hi, how are you good, How are you doing?
Speaker 7 (13:41):
I'm all right, thank you.
Speaker 6 (13:43):
Well, thank you for joining us. I think we'll get
started by letting Chase catch you up on some of
the new, in my opinion, very promising findings that we've
gotten through additional DNA analysis.
Speaker 2 (13:58):
Liz, lets me listen in on her call with the
Innocence Project of Texas. They've reanalyzed some of the DNA
samples and discovered something interesting on a knife that was
found submerged at the bottom of the jacuzzi, the murder weapon.
Speaker 5 (14:14):
Your dad's DNA was found on the knife originally. Yeah,
But what we did do is we went to a
new lab that specializes in low level data and they
were able to determine it for sure is a mixture
of at least two people. They actually think it's best
described as a mixture of two people and agree that
it still is your dad's DNA on there. But they
found an unknown DNA profile on that knife handle, and
(14:38):
they compared it to your whole family, to your mom,
to you, to your relatives and everything and no matches.
Everyone was excluded.
Speaker 2 (14:47):
So, according to this new analysis, there are two people's
DNA on the murder weapon. There's Jim's DNA and there's
someone else's, someone that isn't Sandy.
Speaker 5 (14:59):
The fact there's an unknown person who's not her, who's
not Jim, who's not a family member, who's not a
neighbor on this murder weapon supports her theory. Potentially, eve
improves her theory that an unknown person was wielding this
knife when they killed Jim.
Speaker 2 (15:18):
This is a game changer in Mike Ware's view. This
could be the missing evidence they need to get Sandy's
case re examined.
Speaker 6 (15:27):
We don't know whose DNA it is, but it is
definitely not hers. So it's highly likely that whoever last
touched that murder weapon handle is the real perpetrator, and
that person is not your mom. I think that alone
almost certainly would have changed the outcome of the trip.
Speaker 5 (15:50):
So as just kind of as a quick refresher, right,
I guess there's a lot of information to take in
and try to digest.
Speaker 2 (15:57):
Mike and Chase explain to Liz that they I ask
the lab to check if that unknown profile appears anywhere
else in the crime scene, and it does showing up
on a stool found outside of the closet where Jim
was found.
Speaker 5 (16:12):
You you know the shower stool I'm talking about.
Speaker 4 (16:15):
Yeah, there's like a blood mark on it.
Speaker 5 (16:18):
Yeah, exactly, And that is consistent with whoever touched that
knife handle or whoever held that knife handle. So I
think that, you know, that a pretty strong connection between
who was involved in this case. But the problem is
we don't know who that is at this point.
Speaker 7 (16:36):
Yeah, that's a lot of other imagement had taken. So
what now, what like, what do we do with all
this information?
Speaker 4 (16:41):
Where do we know? How do we move forward from here?
Speaker 2 (16:44):
At this stage, they don't know whose DNA it is,
but it's still a huge development and Chase remains hopeful.
Speaker 5 (16:54):
I think DNA could be the clincher for Sandy's case
because it shows the state's theory that there was no
one else in the house is false. The whole theory
was based on that there was no force entry. There's
only two people here. It's only Sandy, it's only Jim,
and there's only one person alive, so it had to
be Sandy, and the DNA shows.
Speaker 1 (17:14):
That's a lie.
Speaker 4 (17:17):
So what like, how long? I know, think this is
more of a marathon than a sprint, Right, we've already
been here, like my mom's already been in prison for yours.
Speaker 6 (17:26):
Well, using that metaphor, yeah, that there's some truth to that.
Let's be optimistic though, let's say it's more like a
ten k than a sprint.
Speaker 7 (17:35):
Do you believe injustice? Like, do you think that is
something that is actually obtainable or given out by what
is commonly referred to as the criminal justice system? Because
to me, it feels like a penal system, it feels
like a legal system. It doesn't really feel like a
justice system. And I don't know if I'm just super
jadd but I was just wondering if you really do
believe in justice, and you know, you dedicated your life
(17:58):
to this project.
Speaker 6 (18:00):
I can understand how you'd feel that way. But the
answer is yes, I absolutely do. I think the truth
has a power of its own, and I think it
will eventually surface if you stick with the case. Not
to sound hokey or corny, but the truth has a
way of being able to claw its way out of
a hole and climb out into the daylight.
Speaker 5 (18:22):
The pursuit of justice. I'm not sure there's a nobler pursuit,
at least for me. So I haven't a faith in
the power of the truth and the power of the
pursuit to keep fighting day in and day out for it.
Speaker 7 (18:34):
Thank you. I appreciate that. And the time and energy
that you've expended not only on this case but for
other people who are in similar positions.
Speaker 6 (18:43):
Well, we appreciate you, Liz. Thank you.
Speaker 2 (18:50):
Can I ask you, Liz, how does it feel hearing
all this new information and how do you think your
mom would feel hearing it.
Speaker 7 (18:58):
I just don't have any that this is just how
it is, and so if things don't go well, then
I wasn't expecting it. And if things do go well,
then it's even better, right because I wasn't expecting anything.
So for me, I'm just waiting. I have information, and
I'm going to wait until I have more. My mom, however,
(19:22):
gets her hopes up very easily, and so I have
to do a lot of talking to make sure that
she tempers her expectations and that she understands that time
is going to crawl. Yeah, I think she'll be I
think this will give her the extra bit of hope
that she might need to you know, make it in
(19:44):
prison for.
Speaker 4 (19:46):
A little longer, however long it might be.
Speaker 2 (19:51):
And more than anything else, this family needs hope and
they are not giving up offering a one hundred thousand
dollar dollar reward for any new information regarding Sandy's case
that would prove her innocence.
Speaker 1 (20:18):
So today we are marking the size of a traditional tattoo.
Speaker 8 (20:22):
Tattoos were really important, really especially in our culture.
Speaker 1 (20:27):
But there were banned where we were colonized. So we're
trying to keep the tradition, you know, anyways in a
good way.
Speaker 2 (20:35):
I'm crouched somewhere between the bed and a stool and
tattoo artist Adam's flat in London. Liz is here with me.
Though I may have toyed with the idea of getting
one as well, I'm really here to watch us. Liz
a's another piece to her inked altar.
Speaker 4 (20:57):
Maybe right above the blue, like right on the blue
or yeah, it's good today and again it's part of
like the whippie that my grandmother wore. So can you
have any It's just a red plain red band. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (21:17):
Adam makes a quick sketch with a blue pen, creating
a stencil that he then places on Liz's wrist.
Speaker 1 (21:24):
So what do you think about this repetition of the stars. Yeah,
they also represent flowers as well.
Speaker 2 (21:30):
Yeah, and for directions, he moves her hand left and right,
seeing how the pattern shifts and changes with motion. The
star is based on a piece of fabric Liz brought
back from her dad's village in Guatemala.
Speaker 4 (21:45):
They take hours, hundreds of hours to shoot, I mean months. Yeah. Weaving,
it's all done by hand. It's all done on the
backstrap blooms. They spin their own cotton. They use natural dies.
There's one plant that I can't remember which one it is,
but depending on when in the cycle of the moon
(22:08):
it's it's been picked and processed. It can be like
a deep purple or it can be a lavender color
anywhere in between. It's I think it's just like really
cool that they had all this knowledge.
Speaker 8 (22:21):
Yes, it's a whole process, right, I got it, Like
what you write.
Speaker 2 (22:29):
So can you walk me through what you're doing right now?
Speaker 1 (22:33):
Right now? Where I'm just in the right size for needles. Yeah,
that's because he's gonna be hamp hoed and he chooses needles.
Speaker 2 (22:47):
Here he takes a sterile needle out of its packaging
and tapes a colorful macafeather into the bamboo cane holding
the needle. He then picks up a headdress of these
brilliant macaw feathers and deep teals, bright blues and vibrant
purples and wraps it around his head.
Speaker 8 (23:08):
You've seen these headbands before, right, so we use them
in the in the head. That's a connection, you know,
with the with the symbology and the.
Speaker 1 (23:17):
Ceremonial side as well.
Speaker 8 (23:21):
So it's good too to use it in the ceremony
like this, Please sell off for me, please, Like over there.
Speaker 2 (23:27):
He lights a piece of copole a resin from the
Mexican copoultry and swirls the aromatic smoke all around list
while she stands with her eyes closed.
Speaker 1 (23:37):
And now you can clean your face with the smoke,
like washing it.
Speaker 2 (23:42):
She uses her hands to brush the smoke up over
her head and shoulders.
Speaker 8 (23:47):
And also take this moke wherever you feel pain in
your body, you're gonna say everywhere, right, she carefully, is
really hot, all right, and we're ready, come and sit
down with me.
Speaker 2 (24:02):
Liz outstretches her wrist as he dips the needle into
the deep red ink the tattoo will be done by hand,
dot by dot, a point to less painting on skin.
Speaker 4 (24:15):
I mean it shows who my dad was or where
he came from. Some that's important to me, you know.
I think I didn't appreciate it when i was a kid,
and now it's something I'm immensely proud of and very
vocal about.
Speaker 2 (24:32):
As Adam presses the needle into Liz's wrist, I see
her body begin to relax, as if the tension from
the day, maybe years, temporarily releases.
Speaker 4 (24:43):
Today was a rough day. I definitely didn't want to
leave my bed or my house today, but I definitely
didn't want to get this done. Sometimes my brain just
takes over and nothing helps.
Speaker 1 (25:00):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (25:01):
I think that's just trauma.
Speaker 2 (25:04):
Yeah, it's hard when your brain lies to you.
Speaker 4 (25:07):
Yeah, And I'm like, I'm constantly in fight or flight,
So it's exhausting.
Speaker 2 (25:16):
Liz has a lot of tattoos, many of them with meeting,
but this one seems quite special, a talisman against those
dark days.
Speaker 4 (25:27):
You know, just something to kind of help me keep
going and stuff gets hard. Yeah, And it's just like
really nice that I was able to meet up with
somebody who is able to do this in a way
that is kind of like the way that our ancestors
would have done.
Speaker 2 (25:49):
Not only honoring her dad Jim, but her own spirit.
The spirit of a fighter and being a fighter runs
down the generations in Liz's family.
Speaker 4 (25:59):
And so it's a way to remember the struggle not
just of my grandmother, but like also our ancestors. And yeah,
that's just kind of a way to remind myself, like,
my problems are not anywhere near what they experienced, food,
insecurity or just general violence. It's important to me to
(26:24):
remind myself that my problems are not nearly that bad.
Speaker 2 (26:33):
The tiny dots began to form into a beautiful, textured,
flowing shape around her wrist, a natural fit, as if
she's had it for years. And as I watch each
new dot pluck into her skin, I imagine each piece of
Lissa's journey and her enduring fight to free her mom
(26:54):
and grieve her dad. I think about my own loss
and the complexity of life life, but grateful for the
strength Liz has shown me in our short time together
and her tenacity to keep fighting. While we may never
know the answer to Jim's murder, And wherever you stand
(27:14):
on Sandy's guilt or innocence. I think we can all
agree if anything bad were to happen to you, you'd
want someone like Liz on your side of the ring.
It's been nearly thirteen years since Jim died and Liz
had to turn into an investigator instead of a grieving daughter.
(27:35):
After all that time, She's exhausted, wants to give up,
but somehow tries to fight another day. As I look
closer at the tattoo, nearly complete, it starts to remind
me of something else, the twisting linear strands and repeating
double helix of the building blocks of all life DNA.
(28:00):
And I can't help but wonder if DNA will be
the key to unlock the rest of Lissa's story. But
I guess for now, we'll just have to wait and see.
(28:36):
You've been listening to Hands Tied from BBC Studios and
iHeart Podcasts. If you like the show, please help us
by spreading the word or giving us a five star review.
The series was produced by me, Maggie Robinson Katz and
Maggie Latham. Sound design and mix is by Tom Brignell.
(28:56):
Our script consultant is Emma Weatherall music research by Aisha Antwe.
Production support is from Dan Martini, Elena Boutang and Mabel
Finnegan Wright, and our production Executive is Laura Jordan Rawl.
The series was developed by Anya Saunders and Emma Shaw.
(29:16):
At iHeart, the Managing Executive Producer is Christina Everett, and
for BBC Studios, the executive producer is Joe Kent. At
iHeart Podcasts, David Wasserman is the brand Marketing Manager and
Ali Cantor Graber is the Director of Marketing at BBC
Studios Audio, our editorial standards advisor is Michael Fatta Ella
(29:40):
Squire's our podcast marketing manager. Lucy Matthias is Commercial lead
and Helen Penbury is the Commercial and Business Development Director.
James Cook is a creative director of Factual for Audio,
and the Director of Audio at BBC Studios is Richard Knight.
BBC Studios. Hey, I'm Maggie.
Speaker 2 (00:08):
Before we begin, I just want to flag that this
episode includes some very strong language, contains some descriptions of violence,
and deals with adult themes.
Speaker 3 (00:26):
We have a large painting of a astronaut laying in
a field of roses, and we bought it while we
were in the US, while I was working on SpaceX's.
Speaker 1 (00:37):
First scrude flights, which is a huge, huge molestone. Can
you speak a little bit about what you did at SpaceX?
Speaker 3 (00:43):
So I was part of the software team and worked
on well across the time there, worked on everything from
the flight vehicles like you know, launching Falcon Dragon and
so on, and myself and a few of the other.
Speaker 2 (00:54):
It's another drizzly and cold day in London, Okay, to
be fair to January. But still I'm sitting across from
Liz and her husband Anthony American versus English. Question Anthony
or Anthony? What's the diff Okay?
Speaker 4 (01:13):
So he says Anthony. I guess that's the British way
of saying it. But I say Anthony, because do you
ever just.
Speaker 1 (01:21):
Like, Oh, I'm just gonna call you Tony.
Speaker 4 (01:23):
He hates that, but I won't.
Speaker 2 (01:26):
Call him tone yeah, or aunt.
Speaker 4 (01:28):
He doesn't like that one either, but I did. I
did get an aunt tattoo. Cute.
Speaker 2 (01:33):
I love it. I'll follow Liz Anthony it is. Anthony
continues telling me about working with SpaceX.
Speaker 3 (01:41):
Through manufacturing satellites and the terminal to the Starling network,
and yeah, lots of different software problems over the four years.
Speaker 5 (01:48):
Amazing.
Speaker 1 (01:50):
I play in a Dolly part and cover band. I
wouldn't be able to do that.
Speaker 2 (01:57):
He's being nice, but after getting to know Liz, it's
clear she needs to be with someone as brilliant as her.
The rac Tramp, Stamp and All. Liz and Anthony met
when they were teens. Anthony was working at a pub
in Oxford and Liz was visiting with a cousin. He
was smitten immediately.
Speaker 3 (02:18):
I remember thinking Liz was the most beautiful girl I've
ever seen, very distinctly, which yeah, she would cringe if
I tell that's through and here we are, but yeah,
really captivated by her.
Speaker 2 (02:27):
Liz does cringe when Anthony says this, letting out a
soft laugh under her breath. Anthony and Liz stayed in touch,
took a trip through Italy together, where they fell in love.
Then later married and had kids. They're now settled in
acute Victorian townhouse in Wimbledon, South London. The robot Anthony
(02:49):
and their son built on the bookshelf Erubik's cubes dashed
between couch cushions. Anthony has been there through every moment
in Liz's life, including the moment she found out her
dad had been killed.
Speaker 1 (03:05):
I just from the shock. But it's just like kind
of like getting hit by a cart.
Speaker 3 (03:09):
You just have this thing come at you, this piece
of information that you couldn't have expected, and you're out
of your.
Speaker 1 (03:14):
Reference frame for like what normal is.
Speaker 3 (03:18):
All of this stuff happened at once, and it was
like a very super chaotic time.
Speaker 1 (03:22):
Yeah, it was pure chaos.
Speaker 2 (03:25):
He flew back to Houston with Liz and did his
best to support her through those first Heroin days.
Speaker 3 (03:31):
It's like extreme grief, like overwhelming shock that this is
real and not some horrible nightmare, and it's just sort
of an extended waking disaster where everyone is reeling in
different ways at different times.
Speaker 2 (03:47):
I ask what he thinks about the case.
Speaker 3 (03:49):
I would say it's unambiguous to me that she's wrongly convicted,
and it's overwhelmingly obvious that this wouldn't have gone the
way that it did, and to have gone through everything,
you know, the years leading up to the court case,
the court case itself, it's staggering that this level of
(04:11):
incompetence was allowed to be played out. And it really
demonstrates that you can do everything right and you can
get fucked and that's what happened here, and Sandy just
tried to do everything correctly.
Speaker 2 (04:26):
He's angry at a system that has taken Sandy away
from her family for a crime he believes she didn't commit.
Speaker 3 (04:34):
When you kind of think about your life that could change,
like that is just such a fracture to the way
that things happen right normally, you would have been going
back for you know, family events, reunions, holidays, whatever it
might be. And things look different after. They look different
for you, they look different for your kids, they look
different from the extended family. And yeah, he's just kind
of like dealing with a new reality kind of after
(04:56):
a loss like that.
Speaker 1 (04:58):
How do you even process the last it's multiple.
Speaker 3 (05:00):
Losses, Yeah, it is even now I think about it, so,
you know, I think about that, like the children don't
have the life that they would have had, otherwise and
knowing him, knowing Jim as their grandfather.
Speaker 1 (05:12):
Yeah, it's difficult.
Speaker 3 (05:14):
I think now of like the things that I do
today that I know that he would have been interested in,
and you kind of miss the dynamic that could have been,
which is a sentiment.
Speaker 2 (05:25):
I completely understand grieving a reality that never came, but
you were promised it. I remember thinking this after my
dad died. If I had kids, they would never know
their grandpa. And while Sandy is still alive, their kids
can't spend any time with her.
Speaker 1 (05:45):
You know, I see a very direct pain in my daughter.
Speaker 3 (05:48):
So she was young enough to have had Sandy around
early on in her life and be a significant figure.
That's still a significant figure today, but it's very difficult
for her to talk about it, to think about it,
to write letters, because of very acute pain.
Speaker 2 (06:04):
But he says it's Liz who carries the pain most acutely.
She's changed so much over the past few years.
Speaker 3 (06:13):
When we first moved to England, you know, Lizabeth the
person who would talk to the stranger on the train
and then you know, by the time you get to
the destination, you're going to a party with them, Whereas
I would be the person who's like noise canceling headphones on,
don't even.
Speaker 1 (06:26):
Talk to me, let alone sad me.
Speaker 3 (06:28):
So that dynamic definitely changed for her because you know
everything that she experienced.
Speaker 2 (06:35):
Liz has told me about this past version of herself,
and she often talks about how her life has split
in two. There's the Liz before Jim's murder and the
Liz after. Where the Liz before was vivacious and gregarious,
the Liz now is closed off, a gooraphobic, and can
(06:56):
have trouble getting out of bed. But in meeting Liz,
I can see both sides. I think she is whip smart, funny,
and mischievous. We'd laugh together on her couch or on
a trip on the tube. But during the making of
this podcast, I experienced my own loss. My mother, who
(07:18):
long suffered from Parkinson's and later dementia, passed away this year,
and out of all of the messages I got, it
was Liz who I felt understood the indescribable pain of
losing a parent the most. She sent me the most
beautiful messages filled with empathy because she walks this grief
(07:39):
every single day, and in many ways, she's lost both
of her parents. Liz really didn't have to do that,
but nonetheless I'm grateful. It's really hard to talk about death,
but it is something that can unite us. While I
don't know the exact pain Liz and through I can
(08:01):
understand through my own a tiny sliver of her pain.
And I mean really really tiny sliver. Because whether you
believe that Sandy is innocent or guilty, you cannot ignore
the immense loss that permeates every facet of the story.
(08:23):
But the story isn't over yet.
Speaker 3 (08:27):
I feel incredibly appreciative that you have an organization like
the Innocence of Projects supporting you, because, frankly speaking, to
try and deal with this yourself like it feels impossible.
Speaker 1 (08:38):
It just feels like you resigned to accept that you've
been crushed. So you do feel hope, Yeah.
Speaker 4 (08:44):
I feel like there's a little glimmer of hope. We
might not get the results we want, but at least
we had the heavyweights behind us, and at least it
gives us a fighting chance.
Speaker 2 (08:57):
I'm Maggie Robinson Katz and from BBC's Studios and iHeart Podcasts.
This is Hands Tied, Episode eight Hope.
Speaker 6 (09:17):
The Innocence Project of Texas is a nonprofit that I
co founded back in two thousand and six, and ultimately
we strive to exonerate the innocent people that we have
identified and get them out of prison.
Speaker 2 (09:35):
This is Mike Ware who, after getting a call from
Sandy's legal teams, started to review her case.
Speaker 1 (09:41):
He dove headfirst.
Speaker 2 (09:43):
Into Sandy's file, reviewing the various appeals court transcripts, He
talked to Liz and met Sandy, and has come to
the conclusion that.
Speaker 6 (09:54):
The accusations were unique and on their face, to me,
ridiculous and preposterous.
Speaker 2 (10:02):
Why do you think that Jerry then believed it?
Speaker 6 (10:06):
Sometimes I think people prefer to believe the more elaborate
and interesting story rather than the more logical and perhaps
less interesting story. Perhaps it was more attractive to believe
this crazy story that the prosecutors spun than it was
(10:27):
to believe that someone or somebody invaded the home and
committed this murder.
Speaker 2 (10:33):
So Mike and the Innocence Project of Texas agree to
take on Sandy's case. But it's not going to be easy.
Speaker 6 (10:42):
Despite all the rhetoric, It's so much easier to convict
a completely innocent person than it is to exonerate a
completely innocent person once they've been convicted.
Speaker 2 (10:53):
It's almost a se Saphean task to try and get
a jury verdict overturned. The only option left is for
them to file a writ of habeas corpus, which is
essentially asking a federal court to review Sandy's case because
they believe that she is unfairly imprisoned. To succeed, they
need to come up with clear and convincing new evidence.
(11:15):
They can't rehash arguments made during the trial or appeal.
Speaker 6 (11:20):
There are only very limited grounds you can raise in
a habeas corpus. It's very tricky to even get heard because,
as the courts will tell you time and time again,
you know, finality of judgment is very important to our system.
Speaker 2 (11:37):
The odds are stacked against them, and Mike knows this well.
The prosecution may have told a better story that Sandy
was a bitter housewife who killed Jim, tied and locked
herself in a closet. Mike and his team hope that
science will tell a different story, and they're relying on DNA.
Speaker 5 (12:00):
Originally, investigators collected over one hundred items of evidence to
be tested for DNA.
Speaker 2 (12:06):
This is Mike's colleague, attorney Chase Baumgartner, who also happens
to be a forensic scientist.
Speaker 5 (12:13):
Part of this investigation we're doing now, and part of
the story of Sandy's case, is the evolution of DNA testing.
Speaker 2 (12:22):
On the night Jim's body was found, the police swapped
the crime scene for DNA. They also bagged up evidence
for further testing, like the cord used to tie Sandy up, clothing,
and the murder weapon, but the test results were inconclusive.
Speaker 5 (12:41):
They generated all this data and in most instances they
just said, it's too complicated, it's too low level, so
we can't tell you anything about the DNA profiles we developed,
and has left us kind of in the dark of
what all this evidence really points to and what it
could implicate.
Speaker 2 (12:59):
Meaning it's either a sample with too many people's DNA
mixed together or sample without enough DNA in it. The
original testing was done more than a decade ago, and
science has progressed since then. Now the Innocence Project of
Texas is getting the samples reanalyzed and the hope this
will throw up something new, possibly the new evidence they
(13:21):
need to get Sandy's case back in court. And they've
got news. They asked Liz to jump on a call,
and I'm.
Speaker 7 (13:28):
Really looking forward to hearing those.
Speaker 6 (13:39):
Liz, Hi, how are you good, How are you doing?
Speaker 7 (13:41):
I'm all right, thank you.
Speaker 6 (13:43):
Well, thank you for joining us. I think we'll get
started by letting Chase catch you up on some of
the new, in my opinion, very promising findings that we've
gotten through additional DNA analysis.
Speaker 2 (13:58):
Liz, lets me listen in on her call with the
Innocence Project of Texas. They've reanalyzed some of the DNA
samples and discovered something interesting on a knife that was
found submerged at the bottom of the jacuzzi, the murder weapon.
Speaker 5 (14:14):
Your dad's DNA was found on the knife originally. Yeah,
But what we did do is we went to a
new lab that specializes in low level data and they
were able to determine it for sure is a mixture
of at least two people. They actually think it's best
described as a mixture of two people and agree that
it still is your dad's DNA on there. But they
found an unknown DNA profile on that knife handle, and
(14:38):
they compared it to your whole family, to your mom,
to you, to your relatives and everything and no matches.
Everyone was excluded.
Speaker 2 (14:47):
So, according to this new analysis, there are two people's
DNA on the murder weapon. There's Jim's DNA and there's
someone else's, someone that isn't Sandy.
Speaker 5 (14:59):
The fact there's an unknown person who's not her, who's
not Jim, who's not a family member, who's not a
neighbor on this murder weapon supports her theory. Potentially, eve
improves her theory that an unknown person was wielding this
knife when they killed Jim.
Speaker 2 (15:18):
This is a game changer in Mike Ware's view. This
could be the missing evidence they need to get Sandy's
case re examined.
Speaker 6 (15:27):
We don't know whose DNA it is, but it is
definitely not hers. So it's highly likely that whoever last
touched that murder weapon handle is the real perpetrator, and
that person is not your mom. I think that alone
almost certainly would have changed the outcome of the trip.
Speaker 5 (15:50):
So as just kind of as a quick refresher, right,
I guess there's a lot of information to take in
and try to digest.
Speaker 2 (15:57):
Mike and Chase explain to Liz that they I ask
the lab to check if that unknown profile appears anywhere
else in the crime scene, and it does showing up
on a stool found outside of the closet where Jim
was found.
Speaker 5 (16:12):
You you know the shower stool I'm talking about.
Speaker 4 (16:15):
Yeah, there's like a blood mark on it.
Speaker 5 (16:18):
Yeah, exactly, And that is consistent with whoever touched that
knife handle or whoever held that knife handle. So I
think that, you know, that a pretty strong connection between
who was involved in this case. But the problem is
we don't know who that is at this point.
Speaker 7 (16:36):
Yeah, that's a lot of other imagement had taken. So
what now, what like, what do we do with all
this information?
Speaker 4 (16:41):
Where do we know? How do we move forward from here?
Speaker 2 (16:44):
At this stage, they don't know whose DNA it is,
but it's still a huge development and Chase remains hopeful.
Speaker 5 (16:54):
I think DNA could be the clincher for Sandy's case
because it shows the state's theory that there was no
one else in the house is false. The whole theory
was based on that there was no force entry. There's
only two people here. It's only Sandy, it's only Jim,
and there's only one person alive, so it had to
be Sandy, and the DNA shows.
Speaker 1 (17:14):
That's a lie.
Speaker 4 (17:17):
So what like, how long? I know, think this is
more of a marathon than a sprint, Right, we've already
been here, like my mom's already been in prison for yours.
Speaker 6 (17:26):
Well, using that metaphor, yeah, that there's some truth to that.
Let's be optimistic though, let's say it's more like a
ten k than a sprint.
Speaker 7 (17:35):
Do you believe injustice? Like, do you think that is
something that is actually obtainable or given out by what
is commonly referred to as the criminal justice system? Because
to me, it feels like a penal system, it feels
like a legal system. It doesn't really feel like a
justice system. And I don't know if I'm just super
jadd but I was just wondering if you really do
believe in justice, and you know, you dedicated your life
(17:58):
to this project.
Speaker 6 (18:00):
I can understand how you'd feel that way. But the
answer is yes, I absolutely do. I think the truth
has a power of its own, and I think it
will eventually surface if you stick with the case. Not
to sound hokey or corny, but the truth has a
way of being able to claw its way out of
a hole and climb out into the daylight.
Speaker 5 (18:22):
The pursuit of justice. I'm not sure there's a nobler pursuit,
at least for me. So I haven't a faith in
the power of the truth and the power of the
pursuit to keep fighting day in and day out for it.
Speaker 7 (18:34):
Thank you. I appreciate that. And the time and energy
that you've expended not only on this case but for
other people who are in similar positions.
Speaker 6 (18:43):
Well, we appreciate you, Liz. Thank you.
Speaker 2 (18:50):
Can I ask you, Liz, how does it feel hearing
all this new information and how do you think your
mom would feel hearing it.
Speaker 7 (18:58):
I just don't have any that this is just how
it is, and so if things don't go well, then
I wasn't expecting it. And if things do go well,
then it's even better, right because I wasn't expecting anything.
So for me, I'm just waiting. I have information, and
I'm going to wait until I have more. My mom, however,
(19:22):
gets her hopes up very easily, and so I have
to do a lot of talking to make sure that
she tempers her expectations and that she understands that time
is going to crawl. Yeah, I think she'll be I
think this will give her the extra bit of hope
that she might need to you know, make it in
(19:44):
prison for.
Speaker 4 (19:46):
A little longer, however long it might be.
Speaker 2 (19:51):
And more than anything else, this family needs hope and
they are not giving up offering a one hundred thousand
dollar dollar reward for any new information regarding Sandy's case
that would prove her innocence.
Speaker 1 (20:18):
So today we are marking the size of a traditional tattoo.
Speaker 8 (20:22):
Tattoos were really important, really especially in our culture.
Speaker 1 (20:27):
But there were banned where we were colonized. So we're
trying to keep the tradition, you know, anyways in a
good way.
Speaker 2 (20:35):
I'm crouched somewhere between the bed and a stool and
tattoo artist Adam's flat in London. Liz is here with me.
Though I may have toyed with the idea of getting
one as well, I'm really here to watch us. Liz
a's another piece to her inked altar.
Speaker 4 (20:57):
Maybe right above the blue, like right on the blue
or yeah, it's good today and again it's part of
like the whippie that my grandmother wore. So can you
have any It's just a red plain red band. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (21:17):
Adam makes a quick sketch with a blue pen, creating
a stencil that he then places on Liz's wrist.
Speaker 1 (21:24):
So what do you think about this repetition of the stars. Yeah,
they also represent flowers as well.
Speaker 2 (21:30):
Yeah, and for directions, he moves her hand left and right,
seeing how the pattern shifts and changes with motion. The
star is based on a piece of fabric Liz brought
back from her dad's village in Guatemala.
Speaker 4 (21:45):
They take hours, hundreds of hours to shoot, I mean months. Yeah. Weaving,
it's all done by hand. It's all done on the
backstrap blooms. They spin their own cotton. They use natural dies.
There's one plant that I can't remember which one it is,
but depending on when in the cycle of the moon
(22:08):
it's it's been picked and processed. It can be like
a deep purple or it can be a lavender color
anywhere in between. It's I think it's just like really
cool that they had all this knowledge.
Speaker 8 (22:21):
Yes, it's a whole process, right, I got it, Like
what you write.
Speaker 2 (22:29):
So can you walk me through what you're doing right now?
Speaker 1 (22:33):
Right now? Where I'm just in the right size for needles. Yeah,
that's because he's gonna be hamp hoed and he chooses needles.
Speaker 2 (22:47):
Here he takes a sterile needle out of its packaging
and tapes a colorful macafeather into the bamboo cane holding
the needle. He then picks up a headdress of these
brilliant macaw feathers and deep teals, bright blues and vibrant
purples and wraps it around his head.
Speaker 8 (23:08):
You've seen these headbands before, right, so we use them
in the in the head. That's a connection, you know,
with the with the symbology and the.
Speaker 1 (23:17):
Ceremonial side as well.
Speaker 8 (23:21):
So it's good too to use it in the ceremony
like this, Please sell off for me, please, Like over there.
Speaker 2 (23:27):
He lights a piece of copole a resin from the
Mexican copoultry and swirls the aromatic smoke all around list
while she stands with her eyes closed.
Speaker 1 (23:37):
And now you can clean your face with the smoke,
like washing it.
Speaker 2 (23:42):
She uses her hands to brush the smoke up over
her head and shoulders.
Speaker 8 (23:47):
And also take this moke wherever you feel pain in
your body, you're gonna say everywhere, right, she carefully, is
really hot, all right, and we're ready, come and sit
down with me.
Speaker 2 (24:02):
Liz outstretches her wrist as he dips the needle into
the deep red ink the tattoo will be done by hand,
dot by dot, a point to less painting on skin.
Speaker 4 (24:15):
I mean it shows who my dad was or where
he came from. Some that's important to me, you know.
I think I didn't appreciate it when i was a kid,
and now it's something I'm immensely proud of and very
vocal about.
Speaker 2 (24:32):
As Adam presses the needle into Liz's wrist, I see
her body begin to relax, as if the tension from
the day, maybe years, temporarily releases.
Speaker 4 (24:43):
Today was a rough day. I definitely didn't want to
leave my bed or my house today, but I definitely
didn't want to get this done. Sometimes my brain just
takes over and nothing helps.
Speaker 1 (25:00):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (25:01):
I think that's just trauma.
Speaker 2 (25:04):
Yeah, it's hard when your brain lies to you.
Speaker 4 (25:07):
Yeah, And I'm like, I'm constantly in fight or flight,
So it's exhausting.
Speaker 2 (25:16):
Liz has a lot of tattoos, many of them with meeting,
but this one seems quite special, a talisman against those
dark days.
Speaker 4 (25:27):
You know, just something to kind of help me keep
going and stuff gets hard. Yeah, And it's just like
really nice that I was able to meet up with
somebody who is able to do this in a way
that is kind of like the way that our ancestors
would have done.
Speaker 2 (25:49):
Not only honoring her dad Jim, but her own spirit.
The spirit of a fighter and being a fighter runs
down the generations in Liz's family.
Speaker 4 (25:59):
And so it's a way to remember the struggle not
just of my grandmother, but like also our ancestors. And yeah,
that's just kind of a way to remind myself, like,
my problems are not anywhere near what they experienced, food,
insecurity or just general violence. It's important to me to
(26:24):
remind myself that my problems are not nearly that bad.
Speaker 2 (26:33):
The tiny dots began to form into a beautiful, textured,
flowing shape around her wrist, a natural fit, as if
she's had it for years. And as I watch each
new dot pluck into her skin, I imagine each piece of
Lissa's journey and her enduring fight to free her mom
(26:54):
and grieve her dad. I think about my own loss
and the complexity of life life, but grateful for the
strength Liz has shown me in our short time together
and her tenacity to keep fighting. While we may never
know the answer to Jim's murder, And wherever you stand
(27:14):
on Sandy's guilt or innocence. I think we can all
agree if anything bad were to happen to you, you'd
want someone like Liz on your side of the ring.
It's been nearly thirteen years since Jim died and Liz
had to turn into an investigator instead of a grieving daughter.
(27:35):
After all that time, She's exhausted, wants to give up,
but somehow tries to fight another day. As I look
closer at the tattoo, nearly complete, it starts to remind
me of something else, the twisting linear strands and repeating
double helix of the building blocks of all life DNA.
(28:00):
And I can't help but wonder if DNA will be
the key to unlock the rest of Lissa's story. But
I guess for now, we'll just have to wait and see.
(28:36):
You've been listening to Hands Tied from BBC Studios and
iHeart Podcasts. If you like the show, please help us
by spreading the word or giving us a five star review.
The series was produced by me, Maggie Robinson Katz and
Maggie Latham. Sound design and mix is by Tom Brignell.
(28:56):
Our script consultant is Emma Weatherall music research by Aisha Antwe.
Production support is from Dan Martini, Elena Boutang and Mabel
Finnegan Wright, and our production Executive is Laura Jordan Rawl.
The series was developed by Anya Saunders and Emma Shaw.
(29:16):
At iHeart, the Managing Executive Producer is Christina Everett, and
for BBC Studios, the executive producer is Joe Kent. At
iHeart Podcasts, David Wasserman is the brand Marketing Manager and
Ali Cantor Graber is the Director of Marketing at BBC
Studios Audio, our editorial standards advisor is Michael Fatta Ella
(29:40):
Squire's our podcast marketing manager. Lucy Matthias is Commercial lead
and Helen Penbury is the Commercial and Business Development Director.
James Cook is a creative director of Factual for Audio,
and the Director of Audio at BBC Studios is Richard Knight.
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