January 10, 2024 • 40 mins
Bobby Mackey's Music World is surrounded by lore, urban legends and very real tragic history. One thing is for sure, the ghosts and stories there have been terrifying people for decades. Special Guest: Laura Roland
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:01):
Welcome to Haunted Road, a production of iHeartRadio and Grimm
and Mild from Aaron Minky. Listener discretion is advised. What
role does music play in influencing paranormal activity? Not just music,
but a vivacious social scene or bar. I've experimented with
(00:23):
this actually years ago. While investigating a bar, we were
told that after hours, particularly on nights where Live's music
had been played in the venue, were always the most
active times ghost Twice we experimented with that. We invited
a Lives band to play during the investigation, and during
(00:43):
their set we ran all sorts of equipment and kept
tabs on our surroundings. Sure enough, we captured anomalies and activity.
Perhaps most telling, once the band had packed up and
left and we returned to the room to investigate, the
jukebox turned off by itself, and the credit card machines
started spitting out blank receipt paper for no reason. Imagine
(01:07):
working under those circumstances every night. Needless to say, my
interest in this phenomenon was peaud and there's perhaps no
better place to explore such a theory than Bobby Mackie's
Music World. I'm Amy Bruney, and this is Haunted Road. Wilder, Kentucky,
(01:31):
sits just across the Ohio River from Cincinnati. The small
town of about three thousand people has only been formally
incorporated for about ninety years. Before that, it was part
of a nearby town called Newport. In the eighteenth century,
Newport was known for its crime, and in particular for
(01:51):
its ties to organized crime. This was a region that
upstanding citizens avoided because it promised trouble. These days, if
motorists pull off of the four lane Licking Road and Wilder,
they'll see what looks like an abandoned shack. It has
a false brick front, while the other three walls are white,
sighting train tracks cut behind it with the Licking River
(02:13):
behind them. The structure is dark, windowless, and doesn't even
have a paved parking lot. Visitors can park in the
patch of white gravel off to the side. But in
spite of its ominous appearance, this business called Bobby Mackie's
Music World is still in operation. If you're brave enough
(02:34):
to enter. The interior decor hints at its colorful past.
A dive bar with pool tables and a mechanical bowl
operates alongside a gift shop The black floor features a
faded logo for the Latin Quarter, a former nightclub that
used to operate in this building. Dim lights barely illuminate
the red and black ceiling or the sign behind the
(02:55):
small stage that reads America's honky Tonk. The basement is
even more eerie. Visitors have to walk over plywood walkways
that stretch across crumbling, broken concrete flooring. The walls are
wooden planks dotted with bullet holes. In a back corner,
behind wooden barriers, an eighteen inch tall stone circular structure
(03:17):
rises from the floor. This is an old well, but
it's anyone's guess exactly how old it is. Some rumors
suggest it dates to at least eighteen ninety seven, when
it offered water to the community. Others suggest it's from
the mid nineteenth century. Rumors say the building used to
be a slaughter house and the cistern collected blood from
(03:39):
butchered animals, and some less colorful speculation, like that of
Dan Smith riding for Haunted America, says the well was
part of a tunnel system that captured and directed water
from the nearby Licking River. Asher Albine of the Bitter
Southerner wrote that there are many rumors that Satanists once
use the well in some kind of ritual sacrifice. Albeing
(04:02):
also noted that the gossip is almost certainly untrue, but
that hasn't stopped even wilder stories from flying, including one
claim that the well isn't opening into hell. And the
signs and advertisements throughout Bobby Mackie's Music World demonstrate that
the current owners have embraced their haunted reputation. Before anyone
can even set foot inside, they'll spot an outdoor sign
(04:24):
that says Bobby Mackie's another right underneath it announces that
visitors can book two hour ghost tours, and inside postings
feature language like this establishment is reported to be haunted.
Management is not responsible and cannot be held liable for
any actions of any ghost spirits on these premises. For
(04:46):
all the bars ghostly marketing, The region's eerie reputation predates
Bobby Mackie's by about a century. In January eighteen ninety six,
a twenty three year old woman named Pearl Brian arrived
in Newport, Kentucky. A few of her friends or family
members knew the real reason she left her home in
Greencastle Indiana. She told them she was visiting a friend,
(05:07):
but in reality, she was about five months pregnant. It's
believed she was seeking an illegal abortion, or, as suggested
in Eric Burnsey's article with the banner graphic, she was
tracking down the birth father to demand he marry her.
Whatever her plan, it didn't work out. Soon after her
arrival on February first, Pearl was found dead in an orchard.
(05:32):
The ground around her corpse was soaked in blood, and
her head was missing. Given the sheer amount of blood,
coroners speculated that she was still living when her murderer
decapitated her. Understandably, any gruesome story like this will draw attention,
and Pearl Brian's murder was splashed across newspapers. The police
(05:54):
worked quickly, and their investigation eventually led them to two men,
Scott Jackson and his roommate Alonzo Walling. Scott was believed
to be Pearl's lover, and he was enrolled in a
dental school in nearby Cincinnati. It would have been relatively
easy for him to travel across the river to kill
Pearl and dump her body. When police questioned Scott, he
(06:16):
claimed he was helping Pearl secure an abortion as a
favor for a friend the baby's actual father. As Robert
Wilhelm recorded on the Murder by Gaslight web page The
Mysteries of Pearl Brian, Scott claimed his roommate Alonzo was
supposed to help get Pearl to and from the abortion appointment.
Scott claimed Alonzo killed Pearl when the procedure went wrong. Alonso,
(06:41):
in turn, suggested Scott always meant to murder Pearl rather
than get her medical treatment. Each suspect protested his innocence
while incriminating the other, but the hard evidence didn't look
good for either accused man. Both Alonzo and Scott were
seen with Pearl the night of her murder, and, according
to one horse cab driver, men fitting their descriptions escorted
(07:04):
a clearly unwell woman across the river from Ohio to Kentucky.
A bartender also assured the police he saw Scott drug
Pearls drink that evening. Albert Vinton Stegmann Junior reported a
particularly disturbing detail on a web page titled Pearl Brian Murder.
He writes that during the night, Scott and Alonso went
(07:26):
into a tavern carrying a red leather valus that had
once belonged to Pearl. They asked the bartender to hold
onto the item for them, and when he picked it up,
he was surprised at how heavy it was. He speculated
that the bag held a bowling ball, but later, when
police found the vallas stained with blood, they suspected it
(07:47):
actually held Pearl's head. It's not clear what became of
her head after that, because it was never recovered. Some
speculate the killer tossed it into the Ohio River or
burned it in a furnace at the dental school, but
another popular theory is that he threw it down a well,
the same well that now sits in Bobby Mackie's Music
(08:07):
World's basement. Either way, the witness's testimony was enough for
the courts to sentence both men to death. They were
hanged together on March twentieth, eighteen ninety seven. Even on
the gallows, each man protested the execution as a miscarriage
of justice. Indianapolis's The Sunday Journal reports that just before
(08:28):
he was killed, Alonzo Walling declared, you are about to
take the life of an innocent man. I call upon
God to be my witness. There are also rumors which
I have not been able to verify that one or
both men warned that if they were unjustly executed, they'd
remain in the town as ghosts haunting their killers. Sure enough,
(08:55):
after the hanging, a series of strange and inexplicable disasters
struck the area. In eighteen seventy six, a distillery was
built on the land where Bobby Mackie's Music World stands. Now,
thirty years after it opened its doors, it caught fire. Meanwhile,
a bridge over the Licking River was constructed nearby. Before
the builders could finish their work, it collapsed, taking thirty
(09:18):
one lives. The string of bad luck persisted throughout the
twentieth century. Numerous pubs and clubs opened and closed on
the site. These decades were marked by barroom brawls that
turned deadly, brutal mafia hits, and fatal shootouts. I could
go on and on about the various murders and suicides
that struck the patrons and owners of these businesses, but
(09:40):
in the interest of time, let's move ahead to April
nineteen seventy eight, That is when Linda and the eponymous
Bobby Mackie bought the bar. Bobby was a musician and
may have wanted to open a venue for country performers,
but it didn't take long for disaster to strike yet again.
Bobby and Linda were mid renovation when a fire broke
(10:03):
out at Music World. Numerous stories in the Cincinnati Inquirer
emphasized that there was no clear cause for the blaze.
The fire pushed back Music World's opening days several months
to October twenty seventh, nineteen seventy eight. After that, the
bar proved to be such a success, Bobby tried opening
another establishment just next door, but the land he purchased
(10:25):
in nineteen ninety two suddenly ripped apart as a two
hundred foot chasm appeared out of nowhere. For context, that's
the length of a twenty story building, and it was
determined that Bobby couldn't possibly build there. Five more years
passed and another fire struck the original bar. This time
the cause was clear. A customer set the structure alight
(10:47):
after a confrontation with a waitress about bringing in outside beer. Luckily,
no one was hurt in the blaze, but it did
reek thousands of dollars in damages. In spite of all
these omens, Bobby Mackie didn't cement its reputation as a
haunted location until the early nineties. Asher Albin wrote about
(11:09):
how ghost stories become a fundamental part of the bar's
identity on his page Honky Tonk Haunts on the Bitter
Southerner website. He says Bobby knew his employee Karl Lawson
often heard footsteps and got the eerie feeling he was
being watched even when he was alone. He was so
unnerved by these incidents he slept with a gun in
(11:30):
his bed and propped his door closed. Bobby had previously
warned Carl not to mention the eerie's supernatural encounters, as
he found them disturbing, but one night Bobby struck up
a conversation about them with Karl and a regular customer
and horror writer named Doug Hensley. Doug grew increasingly fascinated
and begged the two men to tell him everything about
(11:53):
the hauntings of Bobby Mackie's. Finally, they relented, and Doug
took careful notes on each story they told him. In
nineteen ninety one, he published their accounts in a book
titled Terror at Music World. The bestseller instantly rocketed Doug, Carl,
Bobby and the Bar to fame. The book inspired countless
(12:13):
new reports about spectral encounters at Music World. Carl claims
he performed an exorcism in the kitchen, which only brought
temporary relief from paranormal incidents. Other guests reported fireballs, unnatural
swarms of yellow jackets and bats, and, as Douglas Hensley
wrote in Hell's Gates, Terror at Bobby Mackie's Music World,
(12:34):
the ceilings are said to bleed onto the walls. These
accounts even created legal trouble for Bobby. In nineteen ninety three,
one of his customers sued him on the grounds that
a ghost had attacked him in the bathroom. The bar's
lawyer didn't take the claim seriously. His motion to dismiss
was written in rhyming couplets. The final line declared the
(12:58):
plaintiff can always pursue his torte upon his death. In
a higher court. A judge dismissed the lawsuit before it
could go to trial. Now we can debate how many
of these reports are true and how much of it
is savvy marketing. But even if Bobby and Carl exaggerated
(13:20):
some of the bar's history, there are numerous verified sightings
within its walls. Reports suggest the jukebox often plays the
anniversary song even when it's unplugged and off. Strangest of all,
the anniversary song was never programmed into it as a selection,
and some unseen presence has a tendency to toss bottles
(13:41):
across the room and knock furniture over. Some visitors have
spotted a specter they believe is a former owner named
Buck Brady. He briefly operated the bar, then called the
Primrose Country Club in later the Latin Quarter, until the
mafia wrested control from him. It said he cursed the
establishment before later taking his own life. Now, a figure
(14:04):
that looks exactly like his old photographs remains at Music World.
The Cincinnati Post also features descriptions of a figure that
appears to be half man and half goat stalking the premises.
Of course, many narratives feature the three doomed souls who
kicked off the many disasters in Newport and the surrounding area,
Pearl Brian, and the two men who were convicted of
(14:27):
killing her. Many visitors have seen her headless ghost wandering
through Music World, both the bar itself and the basement.
A psychic also claims to have made contact with her spirit.
It's possible that Bobby Mackie's wife, Janet had an ominous
encounter with Pearl when she was reportedly five months pregnant.
(14:48):
As she was on the stairs, unseen hands pushed her.
It said. The fall may have made her give birth prematurely.
Janet never identified the spirit, but it's hard to ignore
the parallels between the two two women who were both
at the same stage of their pregnancy. Janet suffered through
other aggressive incidents too. Elbin reports that Janet complained of
(15:08):
hostile energies at Music World, and she said a spirit
pushed her against a sink that seemed to be filling
with blood. All these encounters were enough that Janet eventually
refused to go inside of Music World. She never reversed
her stance up until her two thousand and nine death.
Guests have also interacted with Scott Jackson and Alonzo Walling,
(15:30):
who were executed for Pearl's murder. Employee Carl Lawson claims
that he has seen the image of a scaffold with
bodies hanging from it in the basement. In the Richmond Register,
Taylor six writes of an apparition with a handlebar mustache
who appears in the men's bathroom. The spirit repeats die Game,
Die Game, which is Latin four dying Well. Alonzo's girlfriend
(15:55):
wrote those exact words to him before he was executed.
These days, accounts of the hauntings at Bobby Mackie's Music
World feature a blend of rumor, exaggeration, and frightening truth.
It's undeniable that Bobby Mackie and the other staff are
benefiting from the bar's haunted reputation. It brings free publicity
(16:16):
and tourists. But this makes it tricky to cut through
the various accounts and learn which are true and which
our fiction to draw in the curious and thrill seekers.
Up next, we will talk to the delightful Laura Roland.
She and her team actually head up the tours and
investigation at Bobby Mackie's Music World. She's the perfect person
(16:36):
to talk to sift through loare and reality. She's coming
up after the break, all right, So I am now
joined by Laura Roland who is with Gatekeeper Paranormal and
(16:58):
they are the team that kind of over sees the
tours and the paranormal investigations at Bobby Mackie's, and she's
been there for quite some time and she's got some
really great stories. So thanks for joining, Laura, appreciate it.
Speaker 2 (17:10):
Oh, thank you for having me.
Speaker 1 (17:11):
I have to say right off the bat, like this
is one of Bobby Mackie's is one of those places
that people ask me about constantly, and I have investigated there.
It was many years ago. I investigated there with ghost
hunters and it was a very interesting investigation. I did
not ride the mechanical bowl, but it was it was
(17:33):
a lot of fun. So why do you think that
kind of stigma exists with that building? Why do you
think people are just so eager to investigate it and
to know more about it?
Speaker 2 (17:46):
Well, I think there are as many people interested to
investigate it as there are people who are absolutely terrified
to go there. And I think both of those groups
of people are intrigued by the whole story that Carl
started with the demonic activity there and his exorcism. I
think that has either terrified people or made them more
(18:09):
interested to come.
Speaker 1 (18:10):
Now, can you kind of go into that What is
that story exactly?
Speaker 2 (18:14):
Well, Carl was the caretaker there. He was a good
friend of Bobby and Bobby's wife, Janet, and he worked
for him for many, many years, and he eventually moved
into an apartment upstairs and he lived up there for
thirteen years. And during the time that he lived there,
he claimed that he was constantly, I guess, harassed by
(18:37):
entities in the building and it got so bad for
him that he felt like they were trying to take
over his body and his soul and he needed to
have a priest give him an exorcism. And then that story,
you know, once that happened, because he would sit at
the bar every night and tell anybody that would listen,
he would tell them all the stuff that happened to him,
(18:57):
and it's just you know, this was pre internet day,
so this was just totally word of mouth back in
the eighties and nineties that he's telling all these stories.
And then the exorcism happened in the early nineties, and
I think at that point everything just took off from there.
Speaker 1 (19:13):
Yeah. You know, I as someone who has investigated there,
you know, I unfortunately did not have a ton happened.
But see, this was I was investigating there with ghost Hunters,
which back then that TV show was there were like seven,
sometimes eight of us, and we would go in like
two at a time, and so sometimes there'd be nights
(19:34):
where like I would only get to investigate a place
for like an hour or so, and Bobby Mackie's was
one of those places where I did not get to
be in there as much as I wanted to. But
I do remember distinctly we caught at one point the
sound of it sounded almost like it was like a
dog or like some sort of growling dog in the
bar area, and there's clearly no dogs in the bar,
(19:56):
but that was the one the one thing that happened
to me. I did. There was also was quite a
ruckus in the basement at one point, and I went
down there and discovered a family of raccoons.
Speaker 2 (20:08):
So, oh my god, they're probably still there.
Speaker 1 (20:13):
I bet they are. They probably remember me if I
showed up. So but it is like you were saying,
people don't ask me have you investigated Bobby Mackie's. They
asked me, would you investigate Bobby Mackie's, you know, And
there's a big difference there, and so that kind of
puts it into perspective, you know, people, It does have
that kind of really spooky beginning for people. But what
(20:36):
kind of activity do people experience there on the regular.
Speaker 2 (20:39):
The two most common things that happen are shadow figures
and disembodied voices. I'd say those are the most common.
I see shadow figures. I mean I've been there for
ten years, so, like you're talking about with the show,
you guys are only there for a short period of time,
so sometimes you might not get anything right. But over
the course of ten years, where I've been there at
(20:59):
least couple times a week, every week, I've seen stuff.
And I couldn't tell you a part of that building
where I haven't seen a shadow figure. I mean I
see them all the time. In fact, last night I
was there for a tour and I had the lights
on and I was standing. I don't know if you
remember the layout, but I was standing kind of We're
(21:21):
in the room where Carl's exorcism was right in front
of that, so I could see through the bar and
like into where the gift shop is, and the lights
were on, and all of a sudden, this dark figure
almost ran right past that doorway where the gift shop is.
I mean it scared me to death. I thought there
was a person in the building. I thought I hadn't
locked the door because this thing moved so fast, and
(21:43):
I kind of jumped back. I'm like, oh my god.
And the people on the tour, you know, sometimes I
wonder if they believe me or if they think I'm
just facan, But I absolutely was not. A figure ran
past there, and that was unusual because usually the shadow
figures just kind of lurk and move around real slowly.
This one was on a mission and he was running. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (22:02):
Now, so who do you think that is? Who do
you think is responsible for that?
Speaker 2 (22:06):
I have no idea, Honestly. I've always thought that Mackie's
is almost like a like a bus station in a way,
like there are a lot of transients I think that
go through there. The only two that I know of
that have actually said their names, either on people's recordings
or through spirit boxes are two guys. One of them
(22:28):
killed the other one in the men's bathroom back in
nineteen forty three. The guy that died. His name was
Paul Goodhue, and he has come through many times on
people's recordings saying his name and everything, because you know,
you don't usually get names all that often, at least
(22:49):
I don't, and not that clearly anyway. But aside from
those two, I really I think most of the spirits
there are just either just passing through or they're just
residuals that are always there.
Speaker 1 (23:01):
I think that's interesting, And you know, I talk about
that a lot, especially with some of these places that
seem to be more actively haunted. How it's not always
just easy to pinpoint it down to one ghost or
one person that it does seem to be this Sometimes
they're kind of almost this way station, or maybe it's
a place they had fond memories or you know, or
maybe they just like you said, they they're passing through,
(23:24):
or they notice that people are looking for people like
them there and they're like, oh, I could probably talk
to someone here, you know.
Speaker 2 (23:30):
Now.
Speaker 1 (23:31):
So when you saw that shadow, I think that's so
interesting that it was moving so quickly. I've seen that
happen a few times myself. I always find when I'm
running a tour of some sort, if I'm like hosting
an investigation or teaching a class, you know, you're looking
towards the group, and then so many times things happen
behind them and you're watching it or you see it
and they don't exactly do you think that the spirits
(23:56):
there know that they're messing with you in some way?
Speaker 2 (23:59):
I thought of it that way, but like they could
be trying to make me look stupid, like you know
that I'm jumping at something that startled me and and
the group is like, what in the world just happened?
Speaker 1 (24:10):
Yeah, I mean, I just I feel like that it's
just one of those things, like it happens to me
all the time. And I also wonder too sometimes as
someone who's in those places salater, as someone who's hosting
a tour, you might just be so familiar with the
activity that you can spot it quicker, and you know,
you know, I don't know. It's just something to think
about it. I always wonder like, as we subject ourselves
(24:31):
to these things more and more, you know, what is
it that we're seeing? And a lot of people aren't
seeing just yet. But so Bobby Mackie's is open, obviously,
there's bands and bars and music and so have you
ever seen paranormal activity, like when it's really busy and
there has something strange happening where you're like, that's not
a live person, or have heard stories along those lines.
Speaker 2 (24:50):
Well, personally, I'm not usually there when the bar's open
because we only do our tours when the bar's closed, right,
So I haven't personally seen any thing happened when the
bar's open, but I have heard stories. They mostly involved
the bathroom and things happening to people when they're in
the bathroom. But you also have to remember these people
are likely drink in a little bit, and you know,
(25:13):
and but you know, I always think that could go
either way, Like you're either drinking and then you're just
seeing things that aren't there. But on the other hand,
maybe you're drinking and you are kind of a little
more open, you know, and the spirits might take advantage
of that. So but I think a lot of times
the day after, like on a Sunday, when the bar's
been open on Friday and Saturday, A lot of times
(25:35):
Sundays have a lot of energy in that building, I
think from all the people and especially if like maybe
there's fights or something. You know, people get in fights
sometimes all that energy I think builds up over the
weekend and Sundays are sometimes pretty active.
Speaker 3 (25:49):
You know.
Speaker 1 (25:49):
That was going to be my next question was that
after bands play and they have a particularly rowdy night,
if that impacts the activity at all. Do you guys
ever go in like direly after the bar closing or
do you go on like off nights.
Speaker 2 (26:03):
No, because they're there till three am and that's what'll
past my bedtime. So we're usually there on almost every
Sunday we have tours.
Speaker 1 (26:12):
And so I'm assuming that the activity does not care
whether it's day or night.
Speaker 2 (26:18):
Oh, absolutely not. I've had some of the amazing experiences
that I've ever had there been in the middle of
the afternoon, So I don't think they know or care
what time it is.
Speaker 1 (26:28):
What would you say has been your most kind of
powerful experience that you've had there?
Speaker 2 (26:33):
I've had again, it involves shadow figures. And this just
happened over the summer. I was in the basement in
the well room, you know where the well is, that
old house, and there's a table out in the hallway,
and it was afternoon, well it was early evening, but
there was light coming in so you could still see.
It wasn't pitch black, and I could see under the
table that's in the hallway, and there was this black
(26:56):
shape and at first you know you're talking about raccoons.
I thought it could have been an animal, but it
was pretty big. It was like dog sized, but it
was It looked like somebody was sitting there, hugging their
knees and kind of rocking back and forth. And I
stared at it for several minutes because my mind was
trying to figure out what it was and I didn't
want to startle my group that there was some wild
animal in the building. So I was just staring at it,
(27:18):
and all of a sudden, This sounds crazy, but I
swear it stopped rocking and looked at me like and
you know, you always have that feeling in your head
like am I really seeing this or am I imagining
that it's looking at me? But I swear it stopped
rocking and turn and looked at me, and then just
took off out from under the table. That was another
fast mover, and it just took off.
Speaker 1 (27:40):
That's pretty wild. I wonder if if he she and
I don't know notice that. I know you were noticing
it and went, oh, wait, she can see me, you know.
Speaker 2 (27:51):
Yeah, That's what it felt like to me because I
was staring at it so intently, trying to make my
eyes focus and figure out if that was you know,
an animal or you know, I didn't know what it was,
but yeah, that was one of my favorites and most
recent ones.
Speaker 1 (28:06):
Now when people come out on the tours or they
come in to investigate and whatnot, like, have you had
people that just have had enough and like have to leave? Oh?
Speaker 2 (28:14):
Yeah, yeah, I've had people get touched, scratched, whispers in
their ear, and then they just get freaked out and
they're like, no, I'm done. I'm going to sit in
the car while the rest of the people finish the tour.
Speaker 1 (28:28):
And how do you feel about the well? Do you
think there is something to the well that there's some
sort of energy about it. I mean, people talk.
Speaker 2 (28:35):
About the well all the time, they do, and I
mean that room is one of my favorite rooms to investigate.
I do feel like there's a lot of energy there.
But I don't know if I'm qualified to say that.
I think that that's like a portal, because I feel
like the whole building is a portal, because you know,
(28:55):
stuff happens everywhere. But I mean, it's just a hole
in the ground. It's just a tunnel that goes out
to the licking river behind the building. I don't see
any reason, you know why it would be that specific
area that's some sort of portal, But I mean again,
it could be I don't know.
Speaker 1 (29:13):
Yeah, I mean the area does have a really interesting history,
of course, and like you stated, like there was definitely
someone who died in the bathroom at one point. You know,
it's been and I find that the energy and venues,
particularly like theaters and musical venues, like there is an
(29:33):
energy there that might not necessarily even be having to
do with death, or it's just that you people are feeling,
they're really feeling something. You know, you have performers that
are really giving it their all, and then you have
people just having sometimes some of the best nights of
their lives, sometimes the worst nights of their lives. And
that energy, I feel like, over so many years of existence,
(29:56):
can affect the paranormal activity there or maybe even create it.
Do you feel like that might have something to do
with why Bobby Mackie's is so active?
Speaker 2 (30:04):
Yeah, And I've said something along those lines on tours
many times, just about the energy that's been in the
building for so many years, because you have to before
Bobby was even there, you know, it was a mob
owned nightclub, called the Latin Quarter, and before that it
was the Primrose and it was during the Primrose days
that the guy got killed in the bathroom. But the
(30:26):
whole mob activity that might have gone on there, I mean,
who knows what they did, especially down in the basement.
There's bullet holes in a door down in the basement,
and the mob you just don't know what they're gonna
do if they you know, they might have killed someone
in the basement and we don't even know about it
because they didn't like keep records of that kind of stuff, right.
Speaker 1 (30:47):
So there's no there's no mob record book anywhere unfortunately.
But you know, and that's actually so I think that
sometimes with those kind of instances, because I've investigated many
places where like tragedies and tragic crimes have happened that
really no one ever had to answer for. And I
kind of feel like sometimes those spirits are especially just
(31:10):
really trying to get through to you because you know,
they want people to know what happened to them, because
you know, many times they just kind of disappeared, And
so that might have something to do with it, especially
when you have people going in there on the right,
on the writing out and asking questions. So do you
do you ever feel that kind of desperate energy, like
there are spirits that are really trying to get through
(31:33):
to people in that building.
Speaker 2 (31:35):
Well, I always think about because I mentioned people getting
scared when they get scratched, and you know, there's so
much I don't know, drama over people being scratched. But
I don't necessarily think that's something evil. A lot of
times I think they're just desperately trying to get someone's attention.
And maybe that's you know, a little too aggressive, but
(31:58):
that's how they're trying to get someone's attention to tell
them something. But yeah, I think especially in the basement
because like I said, we don't know what went on
down there back in the forties and fifties. Sometimes we
get some interesting responses on EVPs and through the spirit
boxes about people wanting you know, like they'll we'll ask
(32:20):
them if they if they were murdered and or if
they know how they died, And a lot of times
we get responses to where it sounds like they're wanting
some help with figuring out or at least someone being
held responsible for what happened to them.
Speaker 1 (32:35):
Yeah, and so I feel the same way about scratches.
I try to kind of illustrate that to people sometimes.
You know, if you think about if you're in a
situation where you're completely desperate, you are not even sure
people can hear you. I mean, I'm just I'm speculating
what a spirit experience is. But you know, if they're
in a situation where they are desperately trying to get
(32:56):
through and they're trying to you know, communicate in some way,
and that they see people around them, they hear people,
they're not here, you know, they're not responding to you,
and you find that you can do this thing where
they can feel you, and like that that might be
the one thing like oh they can feel they can
feel me if I do this and like you scratch them,
(33:17):
you know, trying to get their attention. People ask me
about that, like you were saying a lot, because they
just assume it's like some sort of like a demonic
entity or something, and I'm like, no, like put yourself
there for a minute. Unless they're aggressively trying to harm you.
It could be someone just really trying to get your attention.
And so I you know, I do try to tell
people or investing when we're investigating that. There are some
(33:40):
locations that are kind of more notorious for that than others,
and so I'm glad that you give them that outlook
when they go in there.
Speaker 2 (33:46):
Yeah, and I've also had and most of the scratching
happens in the same place. It usually happens in the
well room or in the jail cell that's in the
well room. And so, you know, they used to lock
people in that jail cell. It's not really jail cell.
It's just like a little stone room. I don't know
if you remember seeing it in the well room. It's
just a little stone room.
Speaker 1 (34:07):
I think raccoons at that point.
Speaker 3 (34:09):
But oh, okay, they used to lock people in there
until they figured out, you know, how they were going
to deal with them, like whether they're going to beat
them up or kill them or throw them in the river,
you know, so they would lock them up in there.
Speaker 2 (34:21):
And that's where a lot of people experience scratching, is
when they're sitting in that what we call jail cell.
So it could be that people, you know, maybe the
spirit of someone that is trapped in there and they're
scared and they're just trying to reach out for someone
to help them.
Speaker 1 (34:36):
Yeah, do you feel fine when you're in that place
by yourself? Do you feel safe that? Like? Do you
feel good?
Speaker 2 (34:45):
Well, my answer to that question will probably answer your question.
I don't often go in there by myself, so I
used to, but sometimes and sometimes it's fine, I'll be honest.
Sometimes it's fine and it's just like any old building.
But there are other times where you walk in there
and you automatically feel this heaviness, like something doesn't want
(35:09):
me in here. And I've had that happen. So now
I just wait for my tour group outside because I
don't I don't like feeling like that. I don't like
feeling like they don't want me there, or that you know,
they're angry, maybe that we're coming to bother them again,
because you know, you're just sitting there, minding your business
and then all these people come in saying is there
anybody here? Can you hear me? You know?
Speaker 1 (35:28):
Yeah? That's actually that that makes a lot of sense.
And now do you do you try to kind of
guide people when you bring them in, like, hey, try
to think outside the box. Don't ask the same questions
over and over again.
Speaker 2 (35:40):
Oh yeah, yeah, I I you know, ask them something
for like, you know, what's your favorite food, what's your
favorite drink, or you know anything, but other than you know,
can you knock three times?
Speaker 1 (35:51):
You know right?
Speaker 2 (35:52):
You're dead?
Speaker 1 (35:53):
You know, yeah, I know. I try to tell people
to get really inventive with the conversation or draw and
like events from the time, that kind of thing. But
but it's nice to hear that, you know, you kind
of go in in a respectful fashion. But but yeah,
I can imagine like for them with groups coming in,
you know, sometimes they might get a little a little aggravated.
(36:15):
So yeah, but it's nice to be cognizant of that,
you know, be respectful. And so you the basement in particular,
it sounds like that is a spot that's kind of
like a hot spot for you. Is there anywhere else
that you feel like might be underrated as far as
activity goes in the building?
Speaker 2 (36:35):
Well, actually the main floor, because you know, last night
when I had that shadow figure run the whole time
I was up, which about an hour I was up
on that main level, I was very uneasy because something
about that just really you know, startled me and I
just felt really uneasy. And then sometimes you go in
the basement where everybody thinks, you know, the demons are
(36:58):
hanging out, and it's just it's completely quiet and calm
down there, but upstairs, you know, it's really you know,
heavy and intense. So you know, a lot of people
just want to go to the basement and you know,
because that's what they hear about all the time, is
the well and you know all of that going on,
but a lot of times upstairs on the main level
is way more active.
Speaker 1 (37:20):
Well yeah, and I'm sure they move around too. Oh yeah,
So well that's I mean, that's that's good to know.
I mean, I think also you might I tell people
this too, Like when you're around a live person in
front of you, you can feel that vibe that they're
giving off. So it makes me think that maybe the
energy around some of these spirits, like you can feel them.
You're like, oh, someone's here is not very happy, and
(37:41):
then next thing you know, you see a shadow running
across the room. You know. Yeah, so you probably are
pretty in tune there, maybe more so than others, just
because you're there so often. So if people want to visit,
if people want to go on a tour, what do
they have to do?
Speaker 2 (37:54):
Well, there's two options. Most people find it easier to
just go to Bobby Macki's website because it's easy Bobby
Mai dot com and there's a link on there that
says paranormal and if they click on that, it'll take
them right to our page to book a tour, or
they can go to Gatekeeper Paranormal dot com and do
the same thing, book a tour online.
Speaker 1 (38:13):
Okay, that's great. Well, I really do thank you for
taking the time. You've been lovely and at some point
I'm going to have to make it back out there
and you say hello to my friends in the basement
and also hopefully meet you in person.
Speaker 2 (38:27):
So yeah, that would be awesome.
Speaker 1 (38:33):
Many of the sightings and reports from Bobby Mackie's Music
World have a violent tinge to them, from ghostly assaults
to hostile energies to throw them bottles and toppling furniture.
It's apparent that the spirits there are angry, and with
good reason. The bar has been a silent witness to
murder many times over. Sadly, justice is elusive. We may
(38:57):
never know who killed Pearlbrian, or of the men who
were hanged for the crime innocent, and that's before we
get into the other tragedies and miscarriages of justice that followed.
At the very least, the original trio's anger seems to
live on, and it may persist forever. I'm Amy Bruney
and this was Haunted Road. Haunted Road is hosted and
(39:25):
written by me Amy Bruney, with additional research by Cassandra
de Alba. This show is edited and produced by rema
El Kali, with supervising producer Josh Thain and executive producers
Aaron Menke, Alex Williams, and Matt Frederick. Haunted Road is
a production of iHeartRadio and Grim and Mild from Aaron Menke.
(39:46):
Learn more about this show over at Grimanmild dot com,
and for more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app,
Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.
Welcome to Haunted Road, a production of iHeartRadio and Grimm
and Mild from Aaron Minky. Listener discretion is advised. What
role does music play in influencing paranormal activity? Not just music,
but a vivacious social scene or bar. I've experimented with
(00:23):
this actually years ago. While investigating a bar, we were
told that after hours, particularly on nights where Live's music
had been played in the venue, were always the most
active times ghost Twice we experimented with that. We invited
a Lives band to play during the investigation, and during
(00:43):
their set we ran all sorts of equipment and kept
tabs on our surroundings. Sure enough, we captured anomalies and activity.
Perhaps most telling, once the band had packed up and
left and we returned to the room to investigate, the
jukebox turned off by itself, and the credit card machines
started spitting out blank receipt paper for no reason. Imagine
(01:07):
working under those circumstances every night. Needless to say, my
interest in this phenomenon was peaud and there's perhaps no
better place to explore such a theory than Bobby Mackie's
Music World. I'm Amy Bruney, and this is Haunted Road. Wilder, Kentucky,
(01:31):
sits just across the Ohio River from Cincinnati. The small
town of about three thousand people has only been formally
incorporated for about ninety years. Before that, it was part
of a nearby town called Newport. In the eighteenth century,
Newport was known for its crime, and in particular for
(01:51):
its ties to organized crime. This was a region that
upstanding citizens avoided because it promised trouble. These days, if
motorists pull off of the four lane Licking Road and Wilder,
they'll see what looks like an abandoned shack. It has
a false brick front, while the other three walls are white,
sighting train tracks cut behind it with the Licking River
(02:13):
behind them. The structure is dark, windowless, and doesn't even
have a paved parking lot. Visitors can park in the
patch of white gravel off to the side. But in
spite of its ominous appearance, this business called Bobby Mackie's
Music World is still in operation. If you're brave enough
(02:34):
to enter. The interior decor hints at its colorful past.
A dive bar with pool tables and a mechanical bowl
operates alongside a gift shop The black floor features a
faded logo for the Latin Quarter, a former nightclub that
used to operate in this building. Dim lights barely illuminate
the red and black ceiling or the sign behind the
(02:55):
small stage that reads America's honky Tonk. The basement is
even more eerie. Visitors have to walk over plywood walkways
that stretch across crumbling, broken concrete flooring. The walls are
wooden planks dotted with bullet holes. In a back corner,
behind wooden barriers, an eighteen inch tall stone circular structure
(03:17):
rises from the floor. This is an old well, but
it's anyone's guess exactly how old it is. Some rumors
suggest it dates to at least eighteen ninety seven, when
it offered water to the community. Others suggest it's from
the mid nineteenth century. Rumors say the building used to
be a slaughter house and the cistern collected blood from
(03:39):
butchered animals, and some less colorful speculation, like that of
Dan Smith riding for Haunted America, says the well was
part of a tunnel system that captured and directed water
from the nearby Licking River. Asher Albine of the Bitter
Southerner wrote that there are many rumors that Satanists once
use the well in some kind of ritual sacrifice. Albeing
(04:02):
also noted that the gossip is almost certainly untrue, but
that hasn't stopped even wilder stories from flying, including one
claim that the well isn't opening into hell. And the
signs and advertisements throughout Bobby Mackie's Music World demonstrate that
the current owners have embraced their haunted reputation. Before anyone
can even set foot inside, they'll spot an outdoor sign
(04:24):
that says Bobby Mackie's another right underneath it announces that
visitors can book two hour ghost tours, and inside postings
feature language like this establishment is reported to be haunted.
Management is not responsible and cannot be held liable for
any actions of any ghost spirits on these premises. For
(04:46):
all the bars ghostly marketing, The region's eerie reputation predates
Bobby Mackie's by about a century. In January eighteen ninety six,
a twenty three year old woman named Pearl Brian arrived
in Newport, Kentucky. A few of her friends or family
members knew the real reason she left her home in
Greencastle Indiana. She told them she was visiting a friend,
(05:07):
but in reality, she was about five months pregnant. It's
believed she was seeking an illegal abortion, or, as suggested
in Eric Burnsey's article with the banner graphic, she was
tracking down the birth father to demand he marry her.
Whatever her plan, it didn't work out. Soon after her
arrival on February first, Pearl was found dead in an orchard.
(05:32):
The ground around her corpse was soaked in blood, and
her head was missing. Given the sheer amount of blood,
coroners speculated that she was still living when her murderer
decapitated her. Understandably, any gruesome story like this will draw attention,
and Pearl Brian's murder was splashed across newspapers. The police
(05:54):
worked quickly, and their investigation eventually led them to two men,
Scott Jackson and his roommate Alonzo Walling. Scott was believed
to be Pearl's lover, and he was enrolled in a
dental school in nearby Cincinnati. It would have been relatively
easy for him to travel across the river to kill
Pearl and dump her body. When police questioned Scott, he
(06:16):
claimed he was helping Pearl secure an abortion as a
favor for a friend the baby's actual father. As Robert
Wilhelm recorded on the Murder by Gaslight web page The
Mysteries of Pearl Brian, Scott claimed his roommate Alonzo was
supposed to help get Pearl to and from the abortion appointment.
Scott claimed Alonzo killed Pearl when the procedure went wrong. Alonso,
(06:41):
in turn, suggested Scott always meant to murder Pearl rather
than get her medical treatment. Each suspect protested his innocence
while incriminating the other, but the hard evidence didn't look
good for either accused man. Both Alonzo and Scott were
seen with Pearl the night of her murder, and, according
to one horse cab driver, men fitting their descriptions escorted
(07:04):
a clearly unwell woman across the river from Ohio to Kentucky.
A bartender also assured the police he saw Scott drug
Pearls drink that evening. Albert Vinton Stegmann Junior reported a
particularly disturbing detail on a web page titled Pearl Brian Murder.
He writes that during the night, Scott and Alonso went
(07:26):
into a tavern carrying a red leather valus that had
once belonged to Pearl. They asked the bartender to hold
onto the item for them, and when he picked it up,
he was surprised at how heavy it was. He speculated
that the bag held a bowling ball, but later, when
police found the vallas stained with blood, they suspected it
(07:47):
actually held Pearl's head. It's not clear what became of
her head after that, because it was never recovered. Some
speculate the killer tossed it into the Ohio River or
burned it in a furnace at the dental school, but
another popular theory is that he threw it down a well,
the same well that now sits in Bobby Mackie's Music
(08:07):
World's basement. Either way, the witness's testimony was enough for
the courts to sentence both men to death. They were
hanged together on March twentieth, eighteen ninety seven. Even on
the gallows, each man protested the execution as a miscarriage
of justice. Indianapolis's The Sunday Journal reports that just before
(08:28):
he was killed, Alonzo Walling declared, you are about to
take the life of an innocent man. I call upon
God to be my witness. There are also rumors which
I have not been able to verify that one or
both men warned that if they were unjustly executed, they'd
remain in the town as ghosts haunting their killers. Sure enough,
(08:55):
after the hanging, a series of strange and inexplicable disasters
struck the area. In eighteen seventy six, a distillery was
built on the land where Bobby Mackie's Music World stands. Now,
thirty years after it opened its doors, it caught fire. Meanwhile,
a bridge over the Licking River was constructed nearby. Before
the builders could finish their work, it collapsed, taking thirty
(09:18):
one lives. The string of bad luck persisted throughout the
twentieth century. Numerous pubs and clubs opened and closed on
the site. These decades were marked by barroom brawls that
turned deadly, brutal mafia hits, and fatal shootouts. I could
go on and on about the various murders and suicides
that struck the patrons and owners of these businesses, but
(09:40):
in the interest of time, let's move ahead to April
nineteen seventy eight, That is when Linda and the eponymous
Bobby Mackie bought the bar. Bobby was a musician and
may have wanted to open a venue for country performers,
but it didn't take long for disaster to strike yet again.
Bobby and Linda were mid renovation when a fire broke
(10:03):
out at Music World. Numerous stories in the Cincinnati Inquirer
emphasized that there was no clear cause for the blaze.
The fire pushed back Music World's opening days several months
to October twenty seventh, nineteen seventy eight. After that, the
bar proved to be such a success, Bobby tried opening
another establishment just next door, but the land he purchased
(10:25):
in nineteen ninety two suddenly ripped apart as a two
hundred foot chasm appeared out of nowhere. For context, that's
the length of a twenty story building, and it was
determined that Bobby couldn't possibly build there. Five more years
passed and another fire struck the original bar. This time
the cause was clear. A customer set the structure alight
(10:47):
after a confrontation with a waitress about bringing in outside beer. Luckily,
no one was hurt in the blaze, but it did
reek thousands of dollars in damages. In spite of all
these omens, Bobby Mackie didn't cement its reputation as a
haunted location until the early nineties. Asher Albin wrote about
(11:09):
how ghost stories become a fundamental part of the bar's
identity on his page Honky Tonk Haunts on the Bitter
Southerner website. He says Bobby knew his employee Karl Lawson
often heard footsteps and got the eerie feeling he was
being watched even when he was alone. He was so
unnerved by these incidents he slept with a gun in
(11:30):
his bed and propped his door closed. Bobby had previously
warned Carl not to mention the eerie's supernatural encounters, as
he found them disturbing, but one night Bobby struck up
a conversation about them with Karl and a regular customer
and horror writer named Doug Hensley. Doug grew increasingly fascinated
and begged the two men to tell him everything about
(11:53):
the hauntings of Bobby Mackie's. Finally, they relented, and Doug
took careful notes on each story they told him. In
nineteen ninety one, he published their accounts in a book
titled Terror at Music World. The bestseller instantly rocketed Doug, Carl,
Bobby and the Bar to fame. The book inspired countless
(12:13):
new reports about spectral encounters at Music World. Carl claims
he performed an exorcism in the kitchen, which only brought
temporary relief from paranormal incidents. Other guests reported fireballs, unnatural
swarms of yellow jackets and bats, and, as Douglas Hensley
wrote in Hell's Gates, Terror at Bobby Mackie's Music World,
(12:34):
the ceilings are said to bleed onto the walls. These
accounts even created legal trouble for Bobby. In nineteen ninety three,
one of his customers sued him on the grounds that
a ghost had attacked him in the bathroom. The bar's
lawyer didn't take the claim seriously. His motion to dismiss
was written in rhyming couplets. The final line declared the
(12:58):
plaintiff can always pursue his torte upon his death. In
a higher court. A judge dismissed the lawsuit before it
could go to trial. Now we can debate how many
of these reports are true and how much of it
is savvy marketing. But even if Bobby and Carl exaggerated
(13:20):
some of the bar's history, there are numerous verified sightings
within its walls. Reports suggest the jukebox often plays the
anniversary song even when it's unplugged and off. Strangest of all,
the anniversary song was never programmed into it as a selection,
and some unseen presence has a tendency to toss bottles
(13:41):
across the room and knock furniture over. Some visitors have
spotted a specter they believe is a former owner named
Buck Brady. He briefly operated the bar, then called the
Primrose Country Club in later the Latin Quarter, until the
mafia wrested control from him. It said he cursed the
establishment before later taking his own life. Now, a figure
(14:04):
that looks exactly like his old photographs remains at Music World.
The Cincinnati Post also features descriptions of a figure that
appears to be half man and half goat stalking the premises.
Of course, many narratives feature the three doomed souls who
kicked off the many disasters in Newport and the surrounding area,
Pearl Brian, and the two men who were convicted of
(14:27):
killing her. Many visitors have seen her headless ghost wandering
through Music World, both the bar itself and the basement.
A psychic also claims to have made contact with her spirit.
It's possible that Bobby Mackie's wife, Janet had an ominous
encounter with Pearl when she was reportedly five months pregnant.
(14:48):
As she was on the stairs, unseen hands pushed her.
It said. The fall may have made her give birth prematurely.
Janet never identified the spirit, but it's hard to ignore
the parallels between the two two women who were both
at the same stage of their pregnancy. Janet suffered through
other aggressive incidents too. Elbin reports that Janet complained of
(15:08):
hostile energies at Music World, and she said a spirit
pushed her against a sink that seemed to be filling
with blood. All these encounters were enough that Janet eventually
refused to go inside of Music World. She never reversed
her stance up until her two thousand and nine death.
Guests have also interacted with Scott Jackson and Alonzo Walling,
(15:30):
who were executed for Pearl's murder. Employee Carl Lawson claims
that he has seen the image of a scaffold with
bodies hanging from it in the basement. In the Richmond Register,
Taylor six writes of an apparition with a handlebar mustache
who appears in the men's bathroom. The spirit repeats die Game,
Die Game, which is Latin four dying Well. Alonzo's girlfriend
(15:55):
wrote those exact words to him before he was executed.
These days, accounts of the hauntings at Bobby Mackie's Music
World feature a blend of rumor, exaggeration, and frightening truth.
It's undeniable that Bobby Mackie and the other staff are
benefiting from the bar's haunted reputation. It brings free publicity
(16:16):
and tourists. But this makes it tricky to cut through
the various accounts and learn which are true and which
our fiction to draw in the curious and thrill seekers.
Up next, we will talk to the delightful Laura Roland.
She and her team actually head up the tours and
investigation at Bobby Mackie's Music World. She's the perfect person
(16:36):
to talk to sift through loare and reality. She's coming
up after the break, all right, So I am now
joined by Laura Roland who is with Gatekeeper Paranormal and
(16:58):
they are the team that kind of over sees the
tours and the paranormal investigations at Bobby Mackie's, and she's
been there for quite some time and she's got some
really great stories. So thanks for joining, Laura, appreciate it.
Speaker 2 (17:10):
Oh, thank you for having me.
Speaker 1 (17:11):
I have to say right off the bat, like this
is one of Bobby Mackie's is one of those places
that people ask me about constantly, and I have investigated there.
It was many years ago. I investigated there with ghost
hunters and it was a very interesting investigation. I did
not ride the mechanical bowl, but it was it was
(17:33):
a lot of fun. So why do you think that
kind of stigma exists with that building? Why do you
think people are just so eager to investigate it and
to know more about it?
Speaker 2 (17:46):
Well, I think there are as many people interested to
investigate it as there are people who are absolutely terrified
to go there. And I think both of those groups
of people are intrigued by the whole story that Carl
started with the demonic activity there and his exorcism. I
think that has either terrified people or made them more
(18:09):
interested to come.
Speaker 1 (18:10):
Now, can you kind of go into that What is
that story exactly?
Speaker 2 (18:14):
Well, Carl was the caretaker there. He was a good
friend of Bobby and Bobby's wife, Janet, and he worked
for him for many, many years, and he eventually moved
into an apartment upstairs and he lived up there for
thirteen years. And during the time that he lived there,
he claimed that he was constantly, I guess, harassed by
(18:37):
entities in the building and it got so bad for
him that he felt like they were trying to take
over his body and his soul and he needed to
have a priest give him an exorcism. And then that story,
you know, once that happened, because he would sit at
the bar every night and tell anybody that would listen,
he would tell them all the stuff that happened to him,
(18:57):
and it's just you know, this was pre internet day,
so this was just totally word of mouth back in
the eighties and nineties that he's telling all these stories.
And then the exorcism happened in the early nineties, and
I think at that point everything just took off from there.
Speaker 1 (19:13):
Yeah. You know, I as someone who has investigated there,
you know, I unfortunately did not have a ton happened.
But see, this was I was investigating there with ghost Hunters,
which back then that TV show was there were like seven,
sometimes eight of us, and we would go in like
two at a time, and so sometimes there'd be nights
(19:34):
where like I would only get to investigate a place
for like an hour or so, and Bobby Mackie's was
one of those places where I did not get to
be in there as much as I wanted to. But
I do remember distinctly we caught at one point the
sound of it sounded almost like it was like a
dog or like some sort of growling dog in the
bar area, and there's clearly no dogs in the bar,
(19:56):
but that was the one the one thing that happened
to me. I did. There was also was quite a
ruckus in the basement at one point, and I went
down there and discovered a family of raccoons.
Speaker 2 (20:08):
So, oh my god, they're probably still there.
Speaker 1 (20:13):
I bet they are. They probably remember me if I
showed up. So but it is like you were saying,
people don't ask me have you investigated Bobby Mackie's. They
asked me, would you investigate Bobby Mackie's, you know, And
there's a big difference there, and so that kind of
puts it into perspective, you know, people, It does have
that kind of really spooky beginning for people. But what
(20:36):
kind of activity do people experience there on the regular.
Speaker 2 (20:39):
The two most common things that happen are shadow figures
and disembodied voices. I'd say those are the most common.
I see shadow figures. I mean I've been there for
ten years, so, like you're talking about with the show,
you guys are only there for a short period of time,
so sometimes you might not get anything right. But over
the course of ten years, where I've been there at
(20:59):
least couple times a week, every week, I've seen stuff.
And I couldn't tell you a part of that building
where I haven't seen a shadow figure. I mean I
see them all the time. In fact, last night I
was there for a tour and I had the lights
on and I was standing. I don't know if you
remember the layout, but I was standing kind of We're
(21:21):
in the room where Carl's exorcism was right in front
of that, so I could see through the bar and
like into where the gift shop is, and the lights
were on, and all of a sudden, this dark figure
almost ran right past that doorway where the gift shop is.
I mean it scared me to death. I thought there
was a person in the building. I thought I hadn't
locked the door because this thing moved so fast, and
(21:43):
I kind of jumped back. I'm like, oh my god.
And the people on the tour, you know, sometimes I
wonder if they believe me or if they think I'm
just facan, But I absolutely was not. A figure ran
past there, and that was unusual because usually the shadow
figures just kind of lurk and move around real slowly.
This one was on a mission and he was running. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (22:02):
Now, so who do you think that is? Who do
you think is responsible for that?
Speaker 2 (22:06):
I have no idea, Honestly. I've always thought that Mackie's
is almost like a like a bus station in a way,
like there are a lot of transients I think that
go through there. The only two that I know of
that have actually said their names, either on people's recordings
or through spirit boxes are two guys. One of them
(22:28):
killed the other one in the men's bathroom back in
nineteen forty three. The guy that died. His name was
Paul Goodhue, and he has come through many times on
people's recordings saying his name and everything, because you know,
you don't usually get names all that often, at least
(22:49):
I don't, and not that clearly anyway. But aside from
those two, I really I think most of the spirits
there are just either just passing through or they're just
residuals that are always there.
Speaker 1 (23:01):
I think that's interesting, And you know, I talk about
that a lot, especially with some of these places that
seem to be more actively haunted. How it's not always
just easy to pinpoint it down to one ghost or
one person that it does seem to be this Sometimes
they're kind of almost this way station, or maybe it's
a place they had fond memories or you know, or
maybe they just like you said, they they're passing through,
(23:24):
or they notice that people are looking for people like
them there and they're like, oh, I could probably talk
to someone here, you know.
Speaker 2 (23:30):
Now.
Speaker 1 (23:31):
So when you saw that shadow, I think that's so
interesting that it was moving so quickly. I've seen that
happen a few times myself. I always find when I'm
running a tour of some sort, if I'm like hosting
an investigation or teaching a class, you know, you're looking
towards the group, and then so many times things happen
behind them and you're watching it or you see it
and they don't exactly do you think that the spirits
(23:56):
there know that they're messing with you in some way?
Speaker 2 (23:59):
I thought of it that way, but like they could
be trying to make me look stupid, like you know
that I'm jumping at something that startled me and and
the group is like, what in the world just happened?
Speaker 1 (24:10):
Yeah, I mean, I just I feel like that it's
just one of those things, like it happens to me
all the time. And I also wonder too sometimes as
someone who's in those places salater, as someone who's hosting
a tour, you might just be so familiar with the
activity that you can spot it quicker, and you know,
you know, I don't know. It's just something to think
about it. I always wonder like, as we subject ourselves
(24:31):
to these things more and more, you know, what is
it that we're seeing? And a lot of people aren't
seeing just yet. But so Bobby Mackie's is open, obviously,
there's bands and bars and music and so have you
ever seen paranormal activity, like when it's really busy and
there has something strange happening where you're like, that's not
a live person, or have heard stories along those lines.
Speaker 2 (24:50):
Well, personally, I'm not usually there when the bar's open
because we only do our tours when the bar's closed, right,
So I haven't personally seen any thing happened when the
bar's open, but I have heard stories. They mostly involved
the bathroom and things happening to people when they're in
the bathroom. But you also have to remember these people
are likely drink in a little bit, and you know,
(25:13):
and but you know, I always think that could go
either way, Like you're either drinking and then you're just
seeing things that aren't there. But on the other hand,
maybe you're drinking and you are kind of a little
more open, you know, and the spirits might take advantage
of that. So but I think a lot of times
the day after, like on a Sunday, when the bar's
been open on Friday and Saturday, A lot of times
(25:35):
Sundays have a lot of energy in that building, I
think from all the people and especially if like maybe
there's fights or something. You know, people get in fights
sometimes all that energy I think builds up over the
weekend and Sundays are sometimes pretty active.
Speaker 3 (25:49):
You know.
Speaker 1 (25:49):
That was going to be my next question was that
after bands play and they have a particularly rowdy night,
if that impacts the activity at all. Do you guys
ever go in like direly after the bar closing or
do you go on like off nights.
Speaker 2 (26:03):
No, because they're there till three am and that's what'll
past my bedtime. So we're usually there on almost every
Sunday we have tours.
Speaker 1 (26:12):
And so I'm assuming that the activity does not care
whether it's day or night.
Speaker 2 (26:18):
Oh, absolutely not. I've had some of the amazing experiences
that I've ever had there been in the middle of
the afternoon, So I don't think they know or care
what time it is.
Speaker 1 (26:28):
What would you say has been your most kind of
powerful experience that you've had there?
Speaker 2 (26:33):
I've had again, it involves shadow figures. And this just
happened over the summer. I was in the basement in
the well room, you know where the well is, that
old house, and there's a table out in the hallway,
and it was afternoon, well it was early evening, but
there was light coming in so you could still see.
It wasn't pitch black, and I could see under the
table that's in the hallway, and there was this black
(26:56):
shape and at first you know you're talking about raccoons.
I thought it could have been an animal, but it
was pretty big. It was like dog sized, but it
was It looked like somebody was sitting there, hugging their
knees and kind of rocking back and forth. And I
stared at it for several minutes because my mind was
trying to figure out what it was and I didn't
want to startle my group that there was some wild
animal in the building. So I was just staring at it,
(27:18):
and all of a sudden, This sounds crazy, but I
swear it stopped rocking and looked at me like and
you know, you always have that feeling in your head
like am I really seeing this or am I imagining
that it's looking at me? But I swear it stopped
rocking and turn and looked at me, and then just
took off out from under the table. That was another
fast mover, and it just took off.
Speaker 1 (27:40):
That's pretty wild. I wonder if if he she and
I don't know notice that. I know you were noticing
it and went, oh, wait, she can see me, you know.
Speaker 2 (27:51):
Yeah, That's what it felt like to me because I
was staring at it so intently, trying to make my
eyes focus and figure out if that was you know,
an animal or you know, I didn't know what it was,
but yeah, that was one of my favorites and most
recent ones.
Speaker 1 (28:06):
Now when people come out on the tours or they
come in to investigate and whatnot, like, have you had
people that just have had enough and like have to leave? Oh?
Speaker 2 (28:14):
Yeah, yeah, I've had people get touched, scratched, whispers in
their ear, and then they just get freaked out and
they're like, no, I'm done. I'm going to sit in
the car while the rest of the people finish the tour.
Speaker 1 (28:28):
And how do you feel about the well? Do you
think there is something to the well that there's some
sort of energy about it. I mean, people talk.
Speaker 2 (28:35):
About the well all the time, they do, and I
mean that room is one of my favorite rooms to investigate.
I do feel like there's a lot of energy there.
But I don't know if I'm qualified to say that.
I think that that's like a portal, because I feel
like the whole building is a portal, because you know,
(28:55):
stuff happens everywhere. But I mean, it's just a hole
in the ground. It's just a tunnel that goes out
to the licking river behind the building. I don't see
any reason, you know why it would be that specific
area that's some sort of portal, But I mean again,
it could be I don't know.
Speaker 1 (29:13):
Yeah, I mean the area does have a really interesting history,
of course, and like you stated, like there was definitely
someone who died in the bathroom at one point. You know,
it's been and I find that the energy and venues,
particularly like theaters and musical venues, like there is an
(29:33):
energy there that might not necessarily even be having to
do with death, or it's just that you people are feeling,
they're really feeling something. You know, you have performers that
are really giving it their all, and then you have
people just having sometimes some of the best nights of
their lives, sometimes the worst nights of their lives. And
that energy, I feel like, over so many years of existence,
(29:56):
can affect the paranormal activity there or maybe even create it.
Do you feel like that might have something to do
with why Bobby Mackie's is so active?
Speaker 2 (30:04):
Yeah, And I've said something along those lines on tours
many times, just about the energy that's been in the
building for so many years, because you have to before
Bobby was even there, you know, it was a mob
owned nightclub, called the Latin Quarter, and before that it
was the Primrose and it was during the Primrose days
that the guy got killed in the bathroom. But the
(30:26):
whole mob activity that might have gone on there, I mean,
who knows what they did, especially down in the basement.
There's bullet holes in a door down in the basement,
and the mob you just don't know what they're gonna
do if they you know, they might have killed someone
in the basement and we don't even know about it
because they didn't like keep records of that kind of stuff, right.
Speaker 1 (30:47):
So there's no there's no mob record book anywhere unfortunately.
But you know, and that's actually so I think that
sometimes with those kind of instances, because I've investigated many
places where like tragedies and tragic crimes have happened that
really no one ever had to answer for. And I
kind of feel like sometimes those spirits are especially just
(31:10):
really trying to get through to you because you know,
they want people to know what happened to them, because
you know, many times they just kind of disappeared, And
so that might have something to do with it, especially
when you have people going in there on the right,
on the writing out and asking questions. So do you
do you ever feel that kind of desperate energy, like
there are spirits that are really trying to get through
(31:33):
to people in that building.
Speaker 2 (31:35):
Well, I always think about because I mentioned people getting
scared when they get scratched, and you know, there's so
much I don't know, drama over people being scratched. But
I don't necessarily think that's something evil. A lot of
times I think they're just desperately trying to get someone's attention.
And maybe that's you know, a little too aggressive, but
(31:58):
that's how they're trying to get someone's attention to tell
them something. But yeah, I think especially in the basement
because like I said, we don't know what went on
down there back in the forties and fifties. Sometimes we
get some interesting responses on EVPs and through the spirit
boxes about people wanting you know, like they'll we'll ask
(32:20):
them if they if they were murdered and or if
they know how they died, And a lot of times
we get responses to where it sounds like they're wanting
some help with figuring out or at least someone being
held responsible for what happened to them.
Speaker 1 (32:35):
Yeah, and so I feel the same way about scratches.
I try to kind of illustrate that to people sometimes.
You know, if you think about if you're in a
situation where you're completely desperate, you are not even sure
people can hear you. I mean, I'm just I'm speculating
what a spirit experience is. But you know, if they're
in a situation where they are desperately trying to get
(32:56):
through and they're trying to you know, communicate in some way,
and that they see people around them, they hear people,
they're not here, you know, they're not responding to you,
and you find that you can do this thing where
they can feel you, and like that that might be
the one thing like oh they can feel they can
feel me if I do this and like you scratch them,
(33:17):
you know, trying to get their attention. People ask me
about that, like you were saying a lot, because they
just assume it's like some sort of like a demonic
entity or something, and I'm like, no, like put yourself
there for a minute. Unless they're aggressively trying to harm you.
It could be someone just really trying to get your attention.
And so I you know, I do try to tell
people or investing when we're investigating that. There are some
(33:40):
locations that are kind of more notorious for that than others,
and so I'm glad that you give them that outlook
when they go in there.
Speaker 2 (33:46):
Yeah, and I've also had and most of the scratching
happens in the same place. It usually happens in the
well room or in the jail cell that's in the
well room. And so, you know, they used to lock
people in that jail cell. It's not really jail cell.
It's just like a little stone room. I don't know
if you remember seeing it in the well room. It's
just a little stone room.
Speaker 1 (34:07):
I think raccoons at that point.
Speaker 3 (34:09):
But oh, okay, they used to lock people in there
until they figured out, you know, how they were going
to deal with them, like whether they're going to beat
them up or kill them or throw them in the river,
you know, so they would lock them up in there.
Speaker 2 (34:21):
And that's where a lot of people experience scratching, is
when they're sitting in that what we call jail cell.
So it could be that people, you know, maybe the
spirit of someone that is trapped in there and they're
scared and they're just trying to reach out for someone
to help them.
Speaker 1 (34:36):
Yeah, do you feel fine when you're in that place
by yourself? Do you feel safe that? Like? Do you
feel good?
Speaker 2 (34:45):
Well, my answer to that question will probably answer your question.
I don't often go in there by myself, so I
used to, but sometimes and sometimes it's fine, I'll be honest.
Sometimes it's fine and it's just like any old building.
But there are other times where you walk in there
and you automatically feel this heaviness, like something doesn't want
(35:09):
me in here. And I've had that happen. So now
I just wait for my tour group outside because I
don't I don't like feeling like that. I don't like
feeling like they don't want me there, or that you know,
they're angry, maybe that we're coming to bother them again,
because you know, you're just sitting there, minding your business
and then all these people come in saying is there
anybody here? Can you hear me? You know?
Speaker 1 (35:28):
Yeah? That's actually that that makes a lot of sense.
And now do you do you try to kind of
guide people when you bring them in, like, hey, try
to think outside the box. Don't ask the same questions
over and over again.
Speaker 2 (35:40):
Oh yeah, yeah, I I you know, ask them something
for like, you know, what's your favorite food, what's your
favorite drink, or you know anything, but other than you know,
can you knock three times?
Speaker 1 (35:51):
You know right?
Speaker 2 (35:52):
You're dead?
Speaker 1 (35:53):
You know, yeah, I know. I try to tell people
to get really inventive with the conversation or draw and
like events from the time, that kind of thing. But
but it's nice to hear that, you know, you kind
of go in in a respectful fashion. But but yeah,
I can imagine like for them with groups coming in,
you know, sometimes they might get a little a little aggravated.
(36:15):
So yeah, but it's nice to be cognizant of that,
you know, be respectful. And so you the basement in particular,
it sounds like that is a spot that's kind of
like a hot spot for you. Is there anywhere else
that you feel like might be underrated as far as
activity goes in the building?
Speaker 2 (36:35):
Well, actually the main floor, because you know, last night
when I had that shadow figure run the whole time
I was up, which about an hour I was up
on that main level, I was very uneasy because something
about that just really you know, startled me and I
just felt really uneasy. And then sometimes you go in
the basement where everybody thinks, you know, the demons are
(36:58):
hanging out, and it's just it's completely quiet and calm
down there, but upstairs, you know, it's really you know,
heavy and intense. So you know, a lot of people
just want to go to the basement and you know,
because that's what they hear about all the time, is
the well and you know all of that going on,
but a lot of times upstairs on the main level
is way more active.
Speaker 1 (37:20):
Well yeah, and I'm sure they move around too. Oh yeah,
So well that's I mean, that's that's good to know.
I mean, I think also you might I tell people
this too, Like when you're around a live person in
front of you, you can feel that vibe that they're
giving off. So it makes me think that maybe the
energy around some of these spirits, like you can feel them.
You're like, oh, someone's here is not very happy, and
(37:41):
then next thing you know, you see a shadow running
across the room. You know. Yeah, so you probably are
pretty in tune there, maybe more so than others, just
because you're there so often. So if people want to visit,
if people want to go on a tour, what do
they have to do?
Speaker 2 (37:54):
Well, there's two options. Most people find it easier to
just go to Bobby Macki's website because it's easy Bobby
Mai dot com and there's a link on there that
says paranormal and if they click on that, it'll take
them right to our page to book a tour, or
they can go to Gatekeeper Paranormal dot com and do
the same thing, book a tour online.
Speaker 1 (38:13):
Okay, that's great. Well, I really do thank you for
taking the time. You've been lovely and at some point
I'm going to have to make it back out there
and you say hello to my friends in the basement
and also hopefully meet you in person.
Speaker 2 (38:27):
So yeah, that would be awesome.
Speaker 1 (38:33):
Many of the sightings and reports from Bobby Mackie's Music
World have a violent tinge to them, from ghostly assaults
to hostile energies to throw them bottles and toppling furniture.
It's apparent that the spirits there are angry, and with
good reason. The bar has been a silent witness to
murder many times over. Sadly, justice is elusive. We may
(38:57):
never know who killed Pearlbrian, or of the men who
were hanged for the crime innocent, and that's before we
get into the other tragedies and miscarriages of justice that followed.
At the very least, the original trio's anger seems to
live on, and it may persist forever. I'm Amy Bruney
and this was Haunted Road. Haunted Road is hosted and
(39:25):
written by me Amy Bruney, with additional research by Cassandra
de Alba. This show is edited and produced by rema
El Kali, with supervising producer Josh Thain and executive producers
Aaron Menke, Alex Williams, and Matt Frederick. Haunted Road is
a production of iHeartRadio and Grim and Mild from Aaron Menke.
(39:46):
Learn more about this show over at Grimanmild dot com,
and for more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app,
Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.
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