February 23, 2022 • 42 mins
The Queen Mary is a stunning former cruise ship built in the 1930s. Now permanently moored in Long Beach, CA and serving as a hotel and tourist attraction, many don’t realize her true past. With a very important assignment during WW2 and a number of documented deaths onboard, the ship is one of the most haunted locations in the world. We sort fact from fiction, and learn all about her ghosts.
Special guest: Aiden Sinclair
Visit www.strange-escapes.com if you'd like to vacation at haunted locations around the world, and catch season 6 of Kindred Spirits airing now on Travel Channel or streaming on Discovery+
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
Welcome to Haunted Road, a production of I Heart Radio
and Grimm and Mild from Aaron Minky listener Discretion is advised.
(00:22):
It was ninety two and I was twenty two years
old and a seaman in the Merchant Navy on the
Queen Mary. We were returning to Glasgow from New York,
which was a four to five day journey. The Queen
Mary was carrying thousands of American troops to join the
Allied forces. She was known as a hornet's nest in
the war, as there were lots of nationalities on the ship.
(00:43):
There were two of us on the deck on the
aft of the ship, and we were manning the six
inch gun in case we came under attack. What good
we could have done with one gun, I've no idea.
A cruiser called the h M S. Curaso met us
two hundred miles off the coast to escort us into Grenock.
I could see her clearly as I was on the aft.
We could see our escort zig zagging in front of us.
(01:06):
It was common for the ships and cruisers to zig
zag to confuse the U boats. In this particular case, however,
the escort was very very close to us. I said
to my mate, you know, she's zig zigging all over
the place in front of us. I'm sure we're going
to hit her. And sure enough, the Queen Mary sliced
the cruiser into like a piece of butter, straight through
(01:29):
the six inch armored plating. The Queen Mary just carried
on going. We were doing about twenty five knots. It
was the policy not to stop and pick up survivors,
even if they were waving at you. It was too
dangerous as the threat of U boats was always present.
This is the personal account of an Alfred Johnson, taken
(01:50):
from an article in World War Two. Today, it's just
one bit of history from the Gray Ghost, and there's
a lot more to tell. So let tad to Long Beach,
California and stroll the decks of the mighty Queen Mary.
I'm Amy Brunei, and welcome to Haunted Road. The Queen
(02:25):
Mary was built in nineteen thirty and Clyde Bank, Scotland
by Kunard Line, a British cruise line based at Carnival
House in Southampton, England. The project was initially known as
Job number five three four and due to the economic
setback induced by the Great depression. The ship's construction was
finished in three and a half years and cost three
(02:46):
point five million pounds sterling, which is equivalent to four
point eight million in today's US dollars. Connard decided to
name the ship after Queen Victoria, but as legend has it,
Canard directors went to ask King George for his blessing
of the ship's proposed name. We have decided to name
our new ship after England's greatest queen, says the Queen
(03:07):
Mary website. But King George's reported response was, my wife,
Queen Mary, will be delighted that you are naming the
ship after her. I'm nineteen thirty six the Queen Mary
set sail on her maiden voyage, departing from Southampton. The
ship was constructed with five dining halls and lounges, two
cocktail bars, two pools, a grand ballroom, a squash court,
(03:32):
and even a small hospital. The Queen Mary had set
the bar for transatlantic travel, catering to the rich and famous,
who were typically the only people who traveled at that time. Again,
according to the Queen Mary website, the day the Queen
Mary was christened in nineteen thirty four, a well known
English psychic by the name of Lady Mabel Fortescue. Harrison
(03:53):
predicted the Queen Mary will know her greatest fame in
popularity when she never sails another mile or carries another
fair paying passenger. For three years after her maiden voyage,
the Queen Mary was the grandest ocean liner in the world,
carrying Hollywood celebrities like Bob Hope and Clark Gable, Royalty
(04:14):
like the Duke and Duchess of Windsor, and dignitaries like
Winston Churchill. During this time she even set a new
speed record, which she held for fourteen years. Queen Mary
made her last peacetime voyage from Southampton on August nineteen
thirty nine. Upon arrival in New York, the ship was
birthed in the relative safety of the U s Port
(04:35):
while World War Two commenced in Europe. She remained there
until the end of the year as the war escalated
and British Admiralty decided what role the ship would play
in the coming months and years. Having been joined in
New York by Normandy and the newly launched Queen Elizabeth.
For a brief period, three of the world's largest transatlantic
liners sat idle together in the harbor. The trio were
(04:58):
also joined by the second more to Ya. According to
maritime historian Chris Kunard. In March nineteen forty, Queen Mary
was called into military service. She sailed from New York
bound for Sydney, Australia, to prepare for her wartime duties.
Upon her arrival in Australia, she was sent to dry
dock and work commenced to convert the ship into a
(05:20):
troop carrier. Queen Mary's luxury fittings and interior were removed
and safely stored. In their place, thousands of bunks and
hammocks were installed, while the ship's large public areas were
rearranged into mess halls and offices for military purposes. To
protect the ship, small caliber guns were fitted on the
Queen Mary, including anti aircraft guns on her open decks,
(05:44):
but it was the Queen Mary's speed that would be
her main protection against possible attack. To that end, the
liner was ordered to sail at high speed when carrying
troops to avoid danger from the enemy. On May four,
nineteen forty, Queen Mary departed Sydney with troops of the
Australian Imperial Force on board. Bound for the River Clyde, Scotland.
(06:08):
After operating on this route and various others, Queen Mary
concentrated on voyages between Australian ports and Singapore to the
Gulf of Suez. When the United States of America entered
the war on the side of the Allies in nineteen
forty one, Queen Mary's trooping capacity was increased to over
fifteen thousand people. Following further refurbishment, she entered service in
(06:29):
her new role as a mass transport of troops on
the North Atlantic. It was on this service that Queen
Mary carried the most people ever transported by a ship,
sixteen thousand, six hundred eighty three people in one voyage,
a record she still holds to this day. Keep in
mind the original capacity for the Queen Mary was just
(06:51):
over two thousand passengers and eleven hundred crew. It was
during the Queen Mary's tenure as a group transport for
the U S Army that the ship gained her nickname
the Gray Ghost. Hitler even put a two d fifty
thousand dollar bounty out on her and her sister ship,
the Queen Elizabeth, But the speed of an average U
boat was eleven knots surfaced and seven knots submerged. Even
(07:14):
later in the war, when it was increased to seventeen
knots of twenty four knots, they couldn't come close to
the twenty eight not average of the Queen Mary. According
to the book Ghosts of the Queen Mary, many a
submarine skipper would get the ship in his sights, only
to watch it steam out of range over the horizon
long before the order to fire could be given. It
(07:35):
was during her service that the Queen Mary was involved
in a horrendous accident with the Curaso. As sighted in
the beginning of this episode. On that day in ninety two,
the Queen Mary was on a standard zigzag course. It
may have been difficult for HMS Curaso to interpret what
phase of the zigzag she was on when they met,
or it may have been that the HMS Curaso just
(07:57):
didn't have the speed. The two ships found themselves on
a collision course. Both captains were informed, and both believed
the other would take evasive action. The consequences were tragic.
The Croso was sliced in half and sunk, with the
loss of three hundred thirty seven men. As per protocols.
In such situations, the Queen Mary did not stop and
(08:18):
did not slow down protocol or not. I can't imagine
how haunting that must have been for all on board.
At the end of the war, Queen Mary was used
in the urgent and time consuming task of repatriating thousands
of servicemen. Following this duty, the ship was utilized on
the War Bride Service, thirteen voyages that eventually carried twenty
(08:40):
thousand brides who had met and married their husbands while
they were serving across the Atlantic, now to be reunited
in America. Queen Mary and her sister ship, Queen Elizabeth,
were essential in the wartime effort, with Winston Churchill declaring
without their aid, the day of final victory must unquestionably
have been postponed. After the war, the Queen Mary had
(09:04):
a second or third act. According to Ghosts of the
Queen Mary, her whole was scraped and repainted. Thousands of
workers labored day and night to remove the many scars
left by her time at war. All of her public areas,
as well as her cabins, were completely restored. Her decks
and railings were resurfaced, New carpets installed throughout the ship,
(09:26):
and all of the exotic woods and artworks that had
been languishing in warehouses during the war were now back
to where they could be enjoyed again. All the crew
cabins were updated and improved. Probably the largest change came
in changes to passenger cabins. The new configuration consisted of
seven hundred eleven first class staterooms, seven hundred seven second
(09:48):
class staterooms, and five hundred seventy seven cabins for third
class passengers. Following their refit, Queen Mary and Queen Elizabeth
dominated the transatlantic passenger trade as Nard's White Stars to
ship weekly express service through the latter half of the
nineteen forties and well into the nineteen fifties. They proved
highly profitable for Kunard. In nineteen fifty eight, though, the
(10:12):
first transatlantic flight by a jet aircraft began a completely
new era of competition for the Canard Queens, With a
London New York travel time of just seven to eight
hours now possible. With the new aircraft, demand for a
sea crossing of the Ocean fell away markedly on some voyages. Winters,
especially Queen Mary, sailed into Harbor with more crew than passengers.
(10:35):
Though both she and Queen Elizabeth still averaged over a
thousand passengers per crossing into the mid nineteen sixties. By
nineteen sixty five, the entire Conard fleet was operating at
a loss. In April nineteen sixty seven, the Queen Mary
was offered for sale, and the city of Long Beach
submitted the winning bid of three million, four hundred fifty
(10:56):
thousand dollars. Canard's grandest ship made a thirty nine day
voyage from her homeport in England across the Atlantic and
around Cape Horn to southern California. A more direct route
was impossible she was too large to fit through the
Panama Canal. In nineteen sixty seven, construction began to convert
the former ocean liner into a floating hotel and tourist attraction.
(11:20):
The transformation required connecting the ship's utilities and plumbing to
the land, as well as converting her to American electrical standards.
The largest project involved clearing out almost everything below our deck,
boiler rooms, the forward engine room, both turbogenerator rooms, stabilizers,
and the water softening plant to make way for a
four hundred thousand square foot museum. Fittingly Grand banquets. Spaces
(11:45):
were created within the main lounges and dining rooms. The
Mary opened to an enthusiastic public in May nineteen seventy one.
She was placed on the National Register of Historic Places
in Ninete. Today, the Queen features three D fourteen staterooms,
including nine sweets on three decks. Other than the Curroso incident,
(12:08):
there were deaths on board the Queen Mary. According to documentation,
at least forty one passengers died on board over the years,
and sixteen crew members. Of course, accordingly, the ship is haunted.
It's one of the most famously haunted locations in the world.
Regularly encountered happenings include shadow figures, apparitions in full period dress, voices,
(12:30):
balls of light, the sounds of children giggling, and people
being touched. Over the years, many ghostly characters have developed.
Whether any of them actually coincide with documented deaths on
board is hotly debated. Probably the most famous ghost reported
is that of a little girl dubbed Jackie, who was
regularly seen in the first class pool area. She has
(12:52):
also been cited in one of the boiler rooms. Others
report someone named John Henry reportedly Henry worked in the
boiler room, and it was there that his remains were found.
Folks regularly reports seeing Henry's shadowy figure, some claim to
have actual conversations with him. Room B three forty is
reported to be the most notoriously haunted suite on board,
(13:14):
and you can even book it as such, with stories
told of a third class passenger who passed away in
the room, and then years later a woman waking to
a man standing at the foot of her bed. Again,
years later, guests have reported staying in the room and
hearing knocking on the door and seeing lights mysteriously turn
on and off. But Room B three forty fun fact,
(13:35):
Disney was looking to turn the Queen Mary into an
extension of their empire. At one point, to demonstrate this,
they decked out an entire room with haunting things like
faucets that turned on and off, floorboards that creaked, a
holographic crew member, and more. However, the project was abandoned
and the room was left closed for many years. They
thought they had disconnected all those special effects. When they
(13:58):
reopened it to the public, they hadn't, and from there
the room took on a life of its own. That
Room B three forty. Speaking of special effects, I want
to chat with someone next to may surprise you. Aidan
Sinclair is a world renowned magician who, after beginning a
magic show on the Queen Mary encountered things even beyond
(14:20):
his explanation. He'll also fill us in on the possible
future of the ship. She's been in the headlines a
lot lately, having closed due to the pandemic with no
guarantee of reopening. That is all coming up after the break. Okay,
(14:48):
So I am sitting here with one of my favorite
people in the world, a person who it has been
way too long since I saw them. Thanks Pandemic of Magic.
Shin Aiden Sinclair. Hello, Aiden, thanks for having me, of
course happy to you know. I often think back to
when I met you, and I remember it was years ago.
(15:10):
We were at the Stanley Hotel, and I feel like
it was Grant who introduced us, Grant Wilson, and I
just remember at one point it was I was having
a Strange Escapes event there and I descended the staircase
one day to see this crowd in the lobby around someone,
and as I got closer, I see this gentleman, you
(15:30):
like literally doing card tricks, and everyone's just like, oh
my gosh, you just just entertaining a crowd of like
twenty or thirty people in the lobby, and everyone, including myself,
we were just transfixed. So and never since I think
I had you on some strange escapes events after that,
and now you're doing like massive, just beautifully Victorian themed
(15:52):
Seyance type magic shows. They're just dreamy and you're doing
them at all these haunted locations. So I love watching
your work. It's been a ride, I view, and granted
thing though for taking me from a kind of magician skeptic,
which is pretty typical in the magic community, to going
out and investigating and seeing things that I have no
(16:13):
explanation for, which is a way cooler way to live.
It's been really neat to be able to investigate and
kind of dabble there, let's see all those things that
kind of make you wonder. Oh yeah. What I love
is that you have that kind of magician mindset where
like you know how things can work and look unexplained.
It was kind of neat, Like when we had Dave
(16:33):
Tango on Ghost Hunters. You know, he's like a hobbyist magician,
but there's an eye there that the rest of us like,
we don't have that that kind of like I don't
want to say trickery, but you just know how things
can happen, not necessarily in a paranormal sense, and so
I find it to be very useful. It's been cool.
It was at the first Strange Escapes at Liberty and
(16:57):
the Bell Formal Winery was the first time I had
a paranormal experience. Was because of you. Oh well you're well,
you're short of person. And Dave Schrader was one of
the people that were supervising the group, and you teamed
me up with Trader just to kind of make sure
nobody got lost. So we went to the morgue and
there was this sweet young lady there who had three
(17:18):
K two meters laying out and we get into the
morgue and this girl looks at Dave Trader and says,
we're talking to a boy. And t Trader was really
great with this girl and just kind of says, well,
how do you know that, and she goes, well, we're
getting this k too interaction, and then he describes how
a K two meter works and he was like, well,
you know, just because it's lighting up doesn't mean it's
a ghost. It could be someone's cell phone or radio.
(17:41):
And you know, you have three K two meters laying
really close to each other, so if they're all lighting up,
then they're all receiving the same signal. And this girl,
without missing a beat, looks at him and the eye
and goes, I know, and then says, can you show
Mr Schrader that you can touch just the right one?
And these things are like six inches apart, and the
right K too meter fires off like solid red, and
(18:03):
the other two nothing, you know, and knowing how those
things work, you're like, that shouldn't happen. So I look
at Trader, and Trader raises his eyebrow and looks at
the girl, and she goes, good job, thank you. Can
you do the one on the left now? And that
one goes, and then she goes the one in the middle,
and I look at Trader and Trader looks at me
he goes, I got nothing. But I thought about that
(18:28):
for weeks afterwards, of like that that shouldn't happen, that
shouldn't be a thing. And I watched it. I saw
it happen. So that put me down the rabbit hole
of just maybe there are other things. And the next
time I got to do a strange escapes and you
were like, do you want to go do a group
I was like, yeah, please, can I go do it? Well?
(18:48):
I love it. I love that. Now your shows are
really based in a lot of haunted locations, one of
the biggest being the Queen Mary. So can you tell
me just kind of like how you affiliated with the
Queen Mary, how your show is set up there, because
I find that fascinating. I was doing the show at
the Stanley Hotel and the hotel management company that manages
(19:09):
the hotel on the Queen Mary, not to be confused
with the company that managed the Queen Mary, they came
out and saw the show and made an offer, and
we moved the show from the Stanley out to the
Queen and built this really cool kind of speakeasy room.
It only sat fifty people, and I wanted this really
intimate experience, and we designed a show that was able
to tell the story of the Queen Mary, but also
(19:30):
the idea of hauntings. And I think a lot of
people that are outside of the paranormal world, when they
hear the word haunted, they think bad. It's just murder, suicide,
something bad must have happened. And when we built the
room on the Queen Mary, we wanted to convey that,
you know, this is a ship that sailed for twenty years,
thirty years, and any ship that big with that many
(19:51):
people inevitably people pass on. But it's also a place
where people got married and fell in love and had
their very first kiss. So if bad things make ghost,
maybe good things to too, you know, that would to
me explain some of the interactions that are found on
the Queen. So we did a bunch of historical research
about the people who did pass on and kind of
picked a few of those to tell stories with. And
(20:13):
in the concept of doing this, we also created what
has become a paranormal experiment. Initially it was just a show.
The idea is to have the audience create a ghost.
Everyone would imagine a shadow, and I would randomly pick
somebody and say is your shadow an adult or a child?
Give it no gender, just a size, and someone would
answer that question, and then we would ask the other
(20:34):
people in the room, you know, who else was thinking
of a child? And you'd see these hands go up
and we'd use those hands to create the ghost. We'd
basically say, is it a boy or girl? What colors
their hair or colors their eyes? How old are they?
Tell me something that this person likes, tell me something
this person doesn't like, and finally we would say what's
their name. So we start doing this, and in very
(20:57):
short order we realized that people are describing the same
person night after People are giving that ghost the same
name night after night. So you see it happened once,
it's cool the second time, maybe a coincidence, but when
it happens twelve or thirteen times, you can't not watch
that happen and go like, where is that answer coming from?
(21:18):
Is there something here that is actually subconsciously manipulating people
to respond to us. So that's how it kind of grew,
and it's cool to be able to do that in
a place that's filled with a lot of legend and myth.
But after maybe a month, we found ourselves doing a
lot more investigating after the shows, and also doing a
(21:40):
lot of kind of educating people. There's resident paranormal investigators
that have gone to the Queen for a long long time,
and they've gotten to the point where they've made up
stories about things that never happened, and once those things
go out on the internet, they become true for people.
So that's also a challenge of to be able to
go like, hey, nothing that ever happened in that space,
(22:00):
or you know, the Jackie story is probably the most famous,
and so Jackie is the little girl right in the
pool room, like, I've heard that story for years. It's
an amazing story if people have these interactions with a
little girl. The name Jackie comes up in estes method now.
But the story because there's these interactions of this child
(22:21):
has always been a negative story. People like, oh, it's
a little girl that drowned in the pool. Well, the
Queen Mary kept really good records and that never happened, right,
there's no record of the drowning at all. The person
who first started telling that story a long time ago
was somebody who was a psychic, and they said that
that's what happened, so it became true. The kicker is
(22:43):
when you say that no little girl drowned in the
pool is people who go like, well, there's a Jackie,
And to say that she didn't drown doesn't mean that
she doesn't exist. It just means that she didn't die
that way. Right, you know, So we would tell her
story a great deal, and because it interacts as an
intelligent haunting, I wouldn't want to think that an intelligent
(23:05):
child would remain in the place where such a horrible
thing happened. So we would tell her story and then
kind of convey to people if you were to think
back to your childhood, do you remember what it was
like the first time you ever dove, first time you
dove and you got it right, and how happy you
were and that moment of joy And for some people
maybe that's the happiest moment they ever have. Or you know,
(23:28):
maybe Jackie was playing marco polo with a little boy
in that pool, you know, on some voyage, and twenty
years later, maybe that little boy in her got married.
So there are other reasons for her to be drawn
to that place. We talk about that a lot. Actually,
our theory a lot is that these imprints can happen
not necessarily from tragedy, like you can feel just as
(23:49):
strongly about a tragic moment as you can about a
happy or positive one. And then there's also the idea
and I I don't know how you feel about this, but
the idea that maybe Jackie has been kind of willed
into existence from so many people believing in her. You know,
we've seen that before too. I've been investigating the Queen
Mary for a very long time. I don't want to
(24:10):
say like it's been a long time, and I know
I have sat in that pool room. I'm not sure
if it's open or going to be open again to
the public, but I have sat in there in the
dark trying to talk to Jackie, just really wanting to
hear from Jackie and thinking about Jackie and what happened
to Jackie. Multiply that by, however, many thousands of people
go into that space thinking that, and you might just
get a Jackie even if there was never a Jackie.
(24:33):
And we found that with is it be three forty?
You know, you guys did an STA session in there
on your Last Strange Escapes, and the New Kirks did
a session in there. That room is crazy active, like
there's people have stuff happening there, And there's always been
this legend of like, oh, somebody was murdered in b
three forty, or something bad happened in Big three forty.
(24:55):
The true story would be three forty is that when
Disney owned the ship. It was a haunted attraction, and
they put special effects in that room, things that would
open doors and knock, and you know, it was kind
of a spook show kind of experience. And then Disney
left the ship, and when they left the ship, they
did not turn any of that off. They literally just left.
So the new company comes in and people book this room,
(25:17):
and weird stuff is happening, and so many people are
being asked. You know, they're basically saying, I'm not staying
in this room. The doors keep opening, this is happening,
this is happening. So they decided to close the room
to the public, and this ledgend grows at the rooms
truly haunted. And then they got the room. They take
all of the you know, the drywall off the walls,
and they find all this stuff control panels and special
(25:39):
effects and realized that this was all made by man.
But now nobody wants to stay there. So a few
years ago they redesigned the room and they make it
a room once more and go, hey, come stay in
the famous haunted b three forty and now real stuff
is happening there. All the special effects are gone, but
people go in there for lots of different reasons. And
(26:01):
I hate to say this, but like once a night
I would meet somebody on the ship that would book
three forty or book some other room on B deck
because of its reputation. And they were people that were
recently bereaved, people that lost a loved one and had
this idea of, like, you know what, the Queen Mary
has haunted, I'm going to go stay in this haunted
room and then maybe I can talk to my husband,
(26:22):
my wife. And it's heartbreaking to meet those people. But
so many people have now gone into B three forty
and brought stuff with them. I think that's part of
the reason why there's those interactions is not that something
bad happened there, something good happened there. It's that every
person who stays in there brings stuff with them, you know.
And oh yeah, and I can tell you it has
(26:43):
such a reputation. Like I know my friend Julie Tremaine,
who I let her have that room to write a story.
She's a writer. She helped write my book, and I
let her stay in that room one night after Strange
Escapes was done with it so she could write a
story about staying and B three forty and she was like,
obviously it was scary, but she said her favorite part
(27:05):
of it was scaring people all night because people would
come and stand outside the door and they'd be like,
this is the room and they wouldn't realize someone was
in it, and she would bang on the door and
they go running down the hallway, And so they should
advertise that part of it too, because that sounds equally
as fun. Yeah, it's so, what is the status of
(27:26):
the Queen Mary right now? It's been in the news
so much like, do you know what's happening there? It's
really good news. We know more than we're allowed to say.
So the upside is is that's a good thing is
that they're working on getting our back open. Right now,
they're removing all of the lifeboats from the Queen and that's,
you know, caused a little bit of uproars some votes
because they want the boats to stay there. But those
(27:48):
boats were designed to hang the hats for as long
as they've been there, and the weight of them is
extreme and it's starting to pull the davit out structure.
So before the ship can reopen, they're doing some repairs
on her. They're taking those lifeboats off, they're going to
be replaced with a lightweight replica, so the Queen will
still have her look. But a lot of people don't
(28:10):
realize that of all the lifeboats that are hanging on
the Queen only two of them are original to the
Queen Mary. The rest of them came from other boats,
and the two original ones are being preserved and they'll
be put on display inside the Queen Mary, so you'll
actually still be able to visit them, and they'll still
be there um and that history won't go away. But
before people can go back and visit, and you know,
(28:31):
she has to be structurally sound and safe. She's been
closed for two years, and unfortunately she's not like a
building where you just unlock it and turn on the lights.
There's a lot of little things that they have to
do to get it open, and it will probably take
you a little bit of time to rehire everybody back
and get the place up and running again. You know,
as someone who has been kind of in the bowels
(28:53):
of that ship, I feel like common areas, what you
can see in the public is pretty well polished, but
when you start getting down into areas that are not open,
you can really see just how much deterioration has happened,
and like you know it, it makes you realize, like
what they are up against. So I think it's a
feat that she's reopening, and I think it's important, what
(29:16):
an important piece of history. And I did want to
talk about my wildest paranormal experience that I had there
and get your take on it. This was years and
years ago. I was in the boiler room, and this
was before they had kind of made the boiler room
a spot on the tour. So this was before there
were any walkways. It was like you went down there
at your own risk and there were no lights, nothing,
(29:39):
And so I went down there. We were doing an event.
This was years before even Strange Escapes, was before I
was even on TV or any of that. I went
down there with another investigator and we were basically just
kind of trying to plan the investigation and like the
path that was the safest for our attendees because it
was kind of treacherous down there, and so we you
(30:00):
were making our way back out and I had some
sort of light, so it's like a lantern in my flashlight,
and I saw distinctly the figure of this man walk
right by us. But it wasn't a whole person. This
was like a partial apparition, Like it literally kind of
went like part of his head, part of his torso
(30:22):
and like his right arm down to like his right hip,
and the rest of him was not there. But he
was walking very purposefully, did not see me. He was bald.
I could literally see sweat on the back of his
head and like brown overall type jumpsuit thing he was wearing.
And he just walked by and I went I was
(30:43):
like in shock, and I asked the person with me,
I'm like, did you just see that? He's like, what
the hell was that like? And I was like, I
don't know what that was. I've never seen anything like
that in my life because we just had like the flashlight,
but it was so distinct and the most bizarre thing.
Now I realized it was like a partial apparition, but
(31:03):
it just had such a defined cut off. And so
I then heard after this happened that there is a
spirit there. I feel like I can't remember the names
either Henry or Harry or like this report of a
man who potentially died. Have you heard about this as
anyone else seen this thing? Because we're lucky that I
am still an investigator after experience. It's actually like the
(31:28):
appearance of apparitions on the ship is a pretty common thing,
Like people see stuff like that all the time. I
think it's diminished in the boiler room since it's become
open to the public. Right, it's weird to me, Like
I think the Stanley is the same way. In the summer,
when the hotel is really busy, the activity goes way
way down, but when it's quieter, it seems to go up.
(31:50):
And I don't know why that is, but you're not
the first to see it or encounter it. And I
think it's something that because it's in this pattern of
always walking back and forth and people kind of see
him in the same spot that I do think it's
more of a residual thing of someone that's still going
about their job because there's never been really intelligent interactions
down there. Yeah, we get very frustrated because there's so
(32:12):
much stealing the ship. We always want to go do
st just down there, and you can't get a there's
no radio, you know, you canignal down there. But it's
an amazing place, So I'm not surprised that you had that.
And I think it's pretty cool that you had the
experience of actually getting to see it. Yeah, I mean
it was shocking. The same thing kind of happens in
B three forty when you're talking about doing like the
(32:33):
Method or the spirit Box experiment. It's like this kind
of you get very little radio feed in there. It
is mostly white noise, so when you hear a voice
coming out of it, it's very distinct and very strange.
So just wild. Where you did your show on the ship,
that area, Like I remember when you showed me that
and you're like, I'm making this into a theater. I
(32:55):
was like, I don't know how you're doing that because
that area is known to be haunted. Before you did that,
like we investigated in that space, it was just not used.
What was the effect of that when they were renovating
that and things. Did you have things happening? Obviously you're
doing a magic show, but there had to have been
things that went on that you were not facilitating. No,
they started probably the first week, the first week of
(33:18):
the show. These two ladies, they were sisters, and they
were sitting next to this one curtain and as they
were leaving, you know, I always tried to see everybody
when they leave the theater, and this woman stops and said,
you know, thank you so much. That was a lot
of fun. And they turned to start to walk away,
and she felt compelled to turn back around, and she says,
you know what I like best that you did a
couple of things in the show that only one or
(33:38):
two people could see, like it was special just for them,
and we don't do that, like we want everyone to
see everything. So I said, what do you mean and
she goes, oh, we just really appreciated the sailor. And
they said excuse me, and she was like, you know,
and she's like winking at me, like she, you know,
is in on the secret. She goes, the guy in
(33:59):
the sailor suit that you know, was dressed up like
a nineteen thirties sailor who peeks out from behind the curtain,
Oh my goodness, and where she saw that there's no access.
There is nobody dressed up, and there's absolutely no way
for human being to get there. There's none. And my
fiance and I just are looking at this woman and
my fiance is about to say like, oh my god,
(34:19):
and I just looked at her, So I'm glad you
enjoyed that, and she walked away. You know, I have
full body chills like at that this one section, and
I would see it from the stage. People sitting in
a certain part of the theater would always be turning
their head and looking down this hallway, and then afterwards
they would say they saw people our bartender. One night,
probably the third or fourth week, at the end of
(34:39):
the show, she came up to and says, did that
guy not like the show? And we go what guy?
And she goes, well, there was a guy in a
gray suit that left like ten minutes into the show,
and from the stage, you can't leave the room without
me seeing you. And nobody was wearing a gray suit.
Nobody was dressed like that, and nobody had left the
theater during the show, and we were like, carry nobody
(35:00):
left and she didn't see and you know, she saw
a human being as three dimensional, as real as anybody else.
But the guy didn't say anything to her, just walked out.
But we started investigating in the space after that, and
we kind of took every lesson that we've ever learned
from you and Grant and Adam, and we put it
all to work and we started really using k two
(35:23):
ands this method in the space, and we filmed everyone
because we wanted to like have we want to have
a record that we could go back and go, Okay,
this is consistent, this isn't. So we would investigate with
about twelve people late at night and back on my
fiance and I would we would demonstrate ESTs, and then
we would try to get out of it, you know,
and just let the participants do everything right. Mainly because
(35:47):
I'm a magician, I felt like, if anything happens and
I'm the cause of it, people will see it as
a trick. But if you just I want them to
do it. So we started doing that. But when we
would do investigations, we would tell the guests nothing. We
wouldn't anybody about previous experiences. We wouldn't tell them what
to expect, because if you tell somebody a name and
then that name suddenly comes out of estus, you've kind
(36:08):
of spoiled the source of it, right. So we started
filming these and the interactions were profound, to the point
that we were having full conversations with someone and over
the course of a year it became a relationship. Because
this was something that we were doing at least once
a week, if not two or three. It turned into
something I think was a huge advantage in the sense
that most paranormal investigators save up for a year just
(36:31):
to go investigate one place and they only get a
couple of days there. This was like investigating your own home,
you know, so you know what's normal and what feels right,
and you know what I mean, like just the vibes
of the place is different. Yeah, And I mean that's
a powerful tool to have that ability to kind of
reinvestigate it over and over again, because, like you were saying,
(36:51):
you do build a relationship or almost a friendship, and
that might be something. I mean, I'm just speculating what
life is like on the other side or for a
ghost or spirit. But if they come to expect that,
can you imagine like what a joy that is in
their routine all of a sudden that's something new to them. Oh,
I can go here at this time these nights, and
these people are familiar with are there and we can
have a conversation. Some of the places I've been to
(37:14):
over and over again, I've actually gotten e vps of
them saying my name not to intimate me would be
like hi, Amy, like they remember me having that and
the Queen Mary is like a major job perk. I
would say it was heartbreaking. The first time we investigated
down on the ropehold, we had somebody else in est
us you know, just this. I think it was a
journalist that was there just to kind of do a
story on us. And this guy's in the headphones and
(37:37):
we started asking questions and the answers that we got
initially was you know, as anybody here, would you like
to talk to us? And it was go away? Would
you please go away? And we're like, yeah, we'll leave
your space if you're not comfortable with us being here.
And the next thing the guy in Esta says is,
I'm sick of doing tricks. You want me to do tricks.
(37:58):
I'm not here to do tricks. I live here. M h.
It just punches you in the face because you think
of how many people have walked through that space in
the last twenty years, thirty years and did shaven a
haircut on the bulkhead. I mean, I try to tell
people that all the time. This is not a show
for you. You're talking to a real human being potentially
who's in a situation that we can't even begin to
(38:19):
fathom they're not here to knock for you or perform
for you. You were here to help them or bring
them some comfort. I think that's the perfect analogy and
way to demonstrate it. But I've seen that many times
in overly investigated places, and I think it's fair, Like,
I get it. I understand how that happens. People go
in wanting to be scared. They think it's cool, We've
(38:41):
all done it. It's fine, we've all been there. But
it's something that I think if you're truly interested in
the paranormal and ghosts, it's very smart to kind of
move past that and humanize them. Well, I'm glad you
guys were there for that. It was incredible because they
literally was you know, Becca is very sweet. And the
other thing was crazy, is like I dress, you know,
in suits and ties and hats and look like I
(39:03):
walked out of the nineteen thirties, and Becca's does the same.
She wears vintage and her hairs and victory roles. And
when we investigate on the Queen Mary and we're dressed
that way, we have interactions. The few times that we
try to investigate on like a day off and showed
up in jeans and a hoodie. Nothing. Well, this is
exciting for me next time I go to the Queen Mary.
But it was a little cosplay involved. I love. I
(39:26):
don't know if it's just a familiar thing, but I
think it helps. I think it helps, you know. I
think there is something to adding that kind of humanistic triggers.
They're a little more comfortable if you look like who
you're supposed to look like. I love that. So now
tell me how can people find you? What are you
doing now? I can't keep track of you? So if
people want to come see Aiden Sinclair work his magic,
(39:49):
where do they go? Where do they find your schedule?
Right now, we are at the Stanley Hotel and we
have a brand new theater there called Aiden Sinclair's Underground,
and it's kind of a speakeasy behind the bookcase see
great theater. That's seventy people and we do shows over
the winner Friday, Saturday and Sunday and over Memorial Day
to Halloween. The room runs seven days a week. We
(40:10):
bring out guest acts from the Magic Castle and from
the Edinburgh Fringe Fest, so it's become this place where
some of the finest magicians in the world appear over
the summer and they're just incredible shows. And when we're
not doing that, we're in the process of getting our
room back open on the Queen Mary, which we hope
to see back in business by the end of the year.
So that's the little bit of news for Queen Mary aficionados.
(40:32):
I think that you'll find yourself walk in our decks
by the time of the year ends. I think it'll
be a slow and staged opening and it might be
a little while before the hotel opens, but she is
going to come back to life and she's gonna, i think,
be very happy to see people return. And then around
the Halloween season we're usually around the Winchester Mystery House
as well, so it's been an adventure living the dream. Well,
(40:53):
you know, I'm excited to hopefully see you again very soon.
I really appreciate you taking the time to at all
things Queen Mary with us, so friends, if you're listening,
please go see Aidan. I promise you will not be disappointed.
He's also just one of the nicest people you could know.
So thank you so much, aid and I appreciate it.
Any time and safe travels and hopefully we see you soon.
(41:21):
The Queen Mary certainly has it all. History, beauty, ghosts,
at least one X Files episode filmed on board, and
a knack for continuing to defy the odds. It's funny
how often I come across places like this in my
line of work, massive undertakings that stand out not just
as a bit of history, but a home for ghosts.
(41:43):
Makes me think of her right now, quietly in the harbor,
no guests, no regular employees, just silence. Or is there
something tells me, even without the presence of the living,
the Queen Mary is very much awake and awaiting our return.
I'm Amy Bruney and this was Haunted Road. Haunted Road
(42:18):
is a production of I Heart Radio and Grimm and
Mild from Aaron Mankey. The podcast is written and hosted
by Amy Bruney. Executive producers include Aaron Manky, Alex Williams,
and Matt Frederick. The show is produced by rema Ill
Kali and Trevor Young. Research by Taylor Haggerdorn, Amy Bruney
and Robin Miniter. For more podcasts from I Heart Radio,
(42:42):
visit the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever
you get your podcasts.
Welcome to Haunted Road, a production of I Heart Radio
and Grimm and Mild from Aaron Minky listener Discretion is advised.
(00:22):
It was ninety two and I was twenty two years
old and a seaman in the Merchant Navy on the
Queen Mary. We were returning to Glasgow from New York,
which was a four to five day journey. The Queen
Mary was carrying thousands of American troops to join the
Allied forces. She was known as a hornet's nest in
the war, as there were lots of nationalities on the ship.
(00:43):
There were two of us on the deck on the
aft of the ship, and we were manning the six
inch gun in case we came under attack. What good
we could have done with one gun, I've no idea.
A cruiser called the h M S. Curaso met us
two hundred miles off the coast to escort us into Grenock.
I could see her clearly as I was on the aft.
We could see our escort zig zagging in front of us.
(01:06):
It was common for the ships and cruisers to zig
zag to confuse the U boats. In this particular case, however,
the escort was very very close to us. I said
to my mate, you know, she's zig zigging all over
the place in front of us. I'm sure we're going
to hit her. And sure enough, the Queen Mary sliced
the cruiser into like a piece of butter, straight through
(01:29):
the six inch armored plating. The Queen Mary just carried
on going. We were doing about twenty five knots. It
was the policy not to stop and pick up survivors,
even if they were waving at you. It was too
dangerous as the threat of U boats was always present.
This is the personal account of an Alfred Johnson, taken
(01:50):
from an article in World War Two. Today, it's just
one bit of history from the Gray Ghost, and there's
a lot more to tell. So let tad to Long Beach,
California and stroll the decks of the mighty Queen Mary.
I'm Amy Brunei, and welcome to Haunted Road. The Queen
(02:25):
Mary was built in nineteen thirty and Clyde Bank, Scotland
by Kunard Line, a British cruise line based at Carnival
House in Southampton, England. The project was initially known as
Job number five three four and due to the economic
setback induced by the Great depression. The ship's construction was
finished in three and a half years and cost three
(02:46):
point five million pounds sterling, which is equivalent to four
point eight million in today's US dollars. Connard decided to
name the ship after Queen Victoria, but as legend has it,
Canard directors went to ask King George for his blessing
of the ship's proposed name. We have decided to name
our new ship after England's greatest queen, says the Queen
(03:07):
Mary website. But King George's reported response was, my wife,
Queen Mary, will be delighted that you are naming the
ship after her. I'm nineteen thirty six the Queen Mary
set sail on her maiden voyage, departing from Southampton. The
ship was constructed with five dining halls and lounges, two
cocktail bars, two pools, a grand ballroom, a squash court,
(03:32):
and even a small hospital. The Queen Mary had set
the bar for transatlantic travel, catering to the rich and famous,
who were typically the only people who traveled at that time. Again,
according to the Queen Mary website, the day the Queen
Mary was christened in nineteen thirty four, a well known
English psychic by the name of Lady Mabel Fortescue. Harrison
(03:53):
predicted the Queen Mary will know her greatest fame in
popularity when she never sails another mile or carries another
fair paying passenger. For three years after her maiden voyage,
the Queen Mary was the grandest ocean liner in the world,
carrying Hollywood celebrities like Bob Hope and Clark Gable, Royalty
(04:14):
like the Duke and Duchess of Windsor, and dignitaries like
Winston Churchill. During this time she even set a new
speed record, which she held for fourteen years. Queen Mary
made her last peacetime voyage from Southampton on August nineteen
thirty nine. Upon arrival in New York, the ship was
birthed in the relative safety of the U s Port
(04:35):
while World War Two commenced in Europe. She remained there
until the end of the year as the war escalated
and British Admiralty decided what role the ship would play
in the coming months and years. Having been joined in
New York by Normandy and the newly launched Queen Elizabeth.
For a brief period, three of the world's largest transatlantic
liners sat idle together in the harbor. The trio were
(04:58):
also joined by the second more to Ya. According to
maritime historian Chris Kunard. In March nineteen forty, Queen Mary
was called into military service. She sailed from New York
bound for Sydney, Australia, to prepare for her wartime duties.
Upon her arrival in Australia, she was sent to dry
dock and work commenced to convert the ship into a
(05:20):
troop carrier. Queen Mary's luxury fittings and interior were removed
and safely stored. In their place, thousands of bunks and
hammocks were installed, while the ship's large public areas were
rearranged into mess halls and offices for military purposes. To
protect the ship, small caliber guns were fitted on the
Queen Mary, including anti aircraft guns on her open decks,
(05:44):
but it was the Queen Mary's speed that would be
her main protection against possible attack. To that end, the
liner was ordered to sail at high speed when carrying
troops to avoid danger from the enemy. On May four,
nineteen forty, Queen Mary departed Sydney with troops of the
Australian Imperial Force on board. Bound for the River Clyde, Scotland.
(06:08):
After operating on this route and various others, Queen Mary
concentrated on voyages between Australian ports and Singapore to the
Gulf of Suez. When the United States of America entered
the war on the side of the Allies in nineteen
forty one, Queen Mary's trooping capacity was increased to over
fifteen thousand people. Following further refurbishment, she entered service in
(06:29):
her new role as a mass transport of troops on
the North Atlantic. It was on this service that Queen
Mary carried the most people ever transported by a ship,
sixteen thousand, six hundred eighty three people in one voyage,
a record she still holds to this day. Keep in
mind the original capacity for the Queen Mary was just
(06:51):
over two thousand passengers and eleven hundred crew. It was
during the Queen Mary's tenure as a group transport for
the U S Army that the ship gained her nickname
the Gray Ghost. Hitler even put a two d fifty
thousand dollar bounty out on her and her sister ship,
the Queen Elizabeth, But the speed of an average U
boat was eleven knots surfaced and seven knots submerged. Even
(07:14):
later in the war, when it was increased to seventeen
knots of twenty four knots, they couldn't come close to
the twenty eight not average of the Queen Mary. According
to the book Ghosts of the Queen Mary, many a
submarine skipper would get the ship in his sights, only
to watch it steam out of range over the horizon
long before the order to fire could be given. It
(07:35):
was during her service that the Queen Mary was involved
in a horrendous accident with the Curaso. As sighted in
the beginning of this episode. On that day in ninety two,
the Queen Mary was on a standard zigzag course. It
may have been difficult for HMS Curaso to interpret what
phase of the zigzag she was on when they met,
or it may have been that the HMS Curaso just
(07:57):
didn't have the speed. The two ships found themselves on
a collision course. Both captains were informed, and both believed
the other would take evasive action. The consequences were tragic.
The Croso was sliced in half and sunk, with the
loss of three hundred thirty seven men. As per protocols.
In such situations, the Queen Mary did not stop and
(08:18):
did not slow down protocol or not. I can't imagine
how haunting that must have been for all on board.
At the end of the war, Queen Mary was used
in the urgent and time consuming task of repatriating thousands
of servicemen. Following this duty, the ship was utilized on
the War Bride Service, thirteen voyages that eventually carried twenty
(08:40):
thousand brides who had met and married their husbands while
they were serving across the Atlantic, now to be reunited
in America. Queen Mary and her sister ship, Queen Elizabeth,
were essential in the wartime effort, with Winston Churchill declaring
without their aid, the day of final victory must unquestionably
have been postponed. After the war, the Queen Mary had
(09:04):
a second or third act. According to Ghosts of the
Queen Mary, her whole was scraped and repainted. Thousands of
workers labored day and night to remove the many scars
left by her time at war. All of her public areas,
as well as her cabins, were completely restored. Her decks
and railings were resurfaced, New carpets installed throughout the ship,
(09:26):
and all of the exotic woods and artworks that had
been languishing in warehouses during the war were now back
to where they could be enjoyed again. All the crew
cabins were updated and improved. Probably the largest change came
in changes to passenger cabins. The new configuration consisted of
seven hundred eleven first class staterooms, seven hundred seven second
(09:48):
class staterooms, and five hundred seventy seven cabins for third
class passengers. Following their refit, Queen Mary and Queen Elizabeth
dominated the transatlantic passenger trade as Nard's White Stars to
ship weekly express service through the latter half of the
nineteen forties and well into the nineteen fifties. They proved
highly profitable for Kunard. In nineteen fifty eight, though, the
(10:12):
first transatlantic flight by a jet aircraft began a completely
new era of competition for the Canard Queens, With a
London New York travel time of just seven to eight
hours now possible. With the new aircraft, demand for a
sea crossing of the Ocean fell away markedly on some voyages. Winters,
especially Queen Mary, sailed into Harbor with more crew than passengers.
(10:35):
Though both she and Queen Elizabeth still averaged over a
thousand passengers per crossing into the mid nineteen sixties. By
nineteen sixty five, the entire Conard fleet was operating at
a loss. In April nineteen sixty seven, the Queen Mary
was offered for sale, and the city of Long Beach
submitted the winning bid of three million, four hundred fifty
(10:56):
thousand dollars. Canard's grandest ship made a thirty nine day
voyage from her homeport in England across the Atlantic and
around Cape Horn to southern California. A more direct route
was impossible she was too large to fit through the
Panama Canal. In nineteen sixty seven, construction began to convert
the former ocean liner into a floating hotel and tourist attraction.
(11:20):
The transformation required connecting the ship's utilities and plumbing to
the land, as well as converting her to American electrical standards.
The largest project involved clearing out almost everything below our deck,
boiler rooms, the forward engine room, both turbogenerator rooms, stabilizers,
and the water softening plant to make way for a
four hundred thousand square foot museum. Fittingly Grand banquets. Spaces
(11:45):
were created within the main lounges and dining rooms. The
Mary opened to an enthusiastic public in May nineteen seventy one.
She was placed on the National Register of Historic Places
in Ninete. Today, the Queen features three D fourteen staterooms,
including nine sweets on three decks. Other than the Curroso incident,
(12:08):
there were deaths on board the Queen Mary. According to documentation,
at least forty one passengers died on board over the years,
and sixteen crew members. Of course, accordingly, the ship is haunted.
It's one of the most famously haunted locations in the world.
Regularly encountered happenings include shadow figures, apparitions in full period dress, voices,
(12:30):
balls of light, the sounds of children giggling, and people
being touched. Over the years, many ghostly characters have developed.
Whether any of them actually coincide with documented deaths on
board is hotly debated. Probably the most famous ghost reported
is that of a little girl dubbed Jackie, who was
regularly seen in the first class pool area. She has
(12:52):
also been cited in one of the boiler rooms. Others
report someone named John Henry reportedly Henry worked in the
boiler room, and it was there that his remains were found.
Folks regularly reports seeing Henry's shadowy figure, some claim to
have actual conversations with him. Room B three forty is
reported to be the most notoriously haunted suite on board,
(13:14):
and you can even book it as such, with stories
told of a third class passenger who passed away in
the room, and then years later a woman waking to
a man standing at the foot of her bed. Again,
years later, guests have reported staying in the room and
hearing knocking on the door and seeing lights mysteriously turn
on and off. But Room B three forty fun fact,
(13:35):
Disney was looking to turn the Queen Mary into an
extension of their empire. At one point, to demonstrate this,
they decked out an entire room with haunting things like
faucets that turned on and off, floorboards that creaked, a
holographic crew member, and more. However, the project was abandoned
and the room was left closed for many years. They
thought they had disconnected all those special effects. When they
(13:58):
reopened it to the public, they hadn't, and from there
the room took on a life of its own. That
Room B three forty. Speaking of special effects, I want
to chat with someone next to may surprise you. Aidan
Sinclair is a world renowned magician who, after beginning a
magic show on the Queen Mary encountered things even beyond
(14:20):
his explanation. He'll also fill us in on the possible
future of the ship. She's been in the headlines a
lot lately, having closed due to the pandemic with no
guarantee of reopening. That is all coming up after the break. Okay,
(14:48):
So I am sitting here with one of my favorite
people in the world, a person who it has been
way too long since I saw them. Thanks Pandemic of Magic.
Shin Aiden Sinclair. Hello, Aiden, thanks for having me, of
course happy to you know. I often think back to
when I met you, and I remember it was years ago.
(15:10):
We were at the Stanley Hotel, and I feel like
it was Grant who introduced us, Grant Wilson, and I
just remember at one point it was I was having
a Strange Escapes event there and I descended the staircase
one day to see this crowd in the lobby around someone,
and as I got closer, I see this gentleman, you
(15:30):
like literally doing card tricks, and everyone's just like, oh
my gosh, you just just entertaining a crowd of like
twenty or thirty people in the lobby, and everyone, including myself,
we were just transfixed. So and never since I think
I had you on some strange escapes events after that,
and now you're doing like massive, just beautifully Victorian themed
(15:52):
Seyance type magic shows. They're just dreamy and you're doing
them at all these haunted locations. So I love watching
your work. It's been a ride, I view, and granted
thing though for taking me from a kind of magician skeptic,
which is pretty typical in the magic community, to going
out and investigating and seeing things that I have no
(16:13):
explanation for, which is a way cooler way to live.
It's been really neat to be able to investigate and
kind of dabble there, let's see all those things that
kind of make you wonder. Oh yeah. What I love
is that you have that kind of magician mindset where
like you know how things can work and look unexplained.
It was kind of neat, Like when we had Dave
(16:33):
Tango on Ghost Hunters. You know, he's like a hobbyist magician,
but there's an eye there that the rest of us like,
we don't have that that kind of like I don't
want to say trickery, but you just know how things
can happen, not necessarily in a paranormal sense, and so
I find it to be very useful. It's been cool.
It was at the first Strange Escapes at Liberty and
(16:57):
the Bell Formal Winery was the first time I had
a paranormal experience. Was because of you. Oh well you're well,
you're short of person. And Dave Schrader was one of
the people that were supervising the group, and you teamed
me up with Trader just to kind of make sure
nobody got lost. So we went to the morgue and
there was this sweet young lady there who had three
(17:18):
K two meters laying out and we get into the
morgue and this girl looks at Dave Trader and says,
we're talking to a boy. And t Trader was really
great with this girl and just kind of says, well,
how do you know that, and she goes, well, we're
getting this k too interaction, and then he describes how
a K two meter works and he was like, well,
you know, just because it's lighting up doesn't mean it's
a ghost. It could be someone's cell phone or radio.
(17:41):
And you know, you have three K two meters laying
really close to each other, so if they're all lighting up,
then they're all receiving the same signal. And this girl,
without missing a beat, looks at him and the eye
and goes, I know, and then says, can you show
Mr Schrader that you can touch just the right one?
And these things are like six inches apart, and the
right K too meter fires off like solid red, and
(18:03):
the other two nothing, you know, and knowing how those
things work, you're like, that shouldn't happen. So I look
at Trader, and Trader raises his eyebrow and looks at
the girl, and she goes, good job, thank you. Can
you do the one on the left now? And that
one goes, and then she goes the one in the middle,
and I look at Trader and Trader looks at me
he goes, I got nothing. But I thought about that
(18:28):
for weeks afterwards, of like that that shouldn't happen, that
shouldn't be a thing. And I watched it. I saw
it happen. So that put me down the rabbit hole
of just maybe there are other things. And the next
time I got to do a strange escapes and you
were like, do you want to go do a group
I was like, yeah, please, can I go do it? Well?
(18:48):
I love it. I love that. Now your shows are
really based in a lot of haunted locations, one of
the biggest being the Queen Mary. So can you tell
me just kind of like how you affiliated with the
Queen Mary, how your show is set up there, because
I find that fascinating. I was doing the show at
the Stanley Hotel and the hotel management company that manages
(19:09):
the hotel on the Queen Mary, not to be confused
with the company that managed the Queen Mary, they came
out and saw the show and made an offer, and
we moved the show from the Stanley out to the
Queen and built this really cool kind of speakeasy room.
It only sat fifty people, and I wanted this really
intimate experience, and we designed a show that was able
to tell the story of the Queen Mary, but also
(19:30):
the idea of hauntings. And I think a lot of
people that are outside of the paranormal world, when they
hear the word haunted, they think bad. It's just murder, suicide,
something bad must have happened. And when we built the
room on the Queen Mary, we wanted to convey that,
you know, this is a ship that sailed for twenty years,
thirty years, and any ship that big with that many
(19:51):
people inevitably people pass on. But it's also a place
where people got married and fell in love and had
their very first kiss. So if bad things make ghost,
maybe good things to too, you know, that would to
me explain some of the interactions that are found on
the Queen. So we did a bunch of historical research
about the people who did pass on and kind of
picked a few of those to tell stories with. And
(20:13):
in the concept of doing this, we also created what
has become a paranormal experiment. Initially it was just a show.
The idea is to have the audience create a ghost.
Everyone would imagine a shadow, and I would randomly pick
somebody and say is your shadow an adult or a child?
Give it no gender, just a size, and someone would
answer that question, and then we would ask the other
(20:34):
people in the room, you know, who else was thinking
of a child? And you'd see these hands go up
and we'd use those hands to create the ghost. We'd
basically say, is it a boy or girl? What colors
their hair or colors their eyes? How old are they?
Tell me something that this person likes, tell me something
this person doesn't like, and finally we would say what's
their name. So we start doing this, and in very
(20:57):
short order we realized that people are describing the same
person night after People are giving that ghost the same
name night after night. So you see it happened once,
it's cool the second time, maybe a coincidence, but when
it happens twelve or thirteen times, you can't not watch
that happen and go like, where is that answer coming from?
(21:18):
Is there something here that is actually subconsciously manipulating people
to respond to us. So that's how it kind of grew,
and it's cool to be able to do that in
a place that's filled with a lot of legend and myth.
But after maybe a month, we found ourselves doing a
lot more investigating after the shows, and also doing a
(21:40):
lot of kind of educating people. There's resident paranormal investigators
that have gone to the Queen for a long long time,
and they've gotten to the point where they've made up
stories about things that never happened, and once those things
go out on the internet, they become true for people.
So that's also a challenge of to be able to
go like, hey, nothing that ever happened in that space,
(22:00):
or you know, the Jackie story is probably the most famous,
and so Jackie is the little girl right in the
pool room, like, I've heard that story for years. It's
an amazing story if people have these interactions with a
little girl. The name Jackie comes up in estes method now.
But the story because there's these interactions of this child
(22:21):
has always been a negative story. People like, oh, it's
a little girl that drowned in the pool. Well, the
Queen Mary kept really good records and that never happened, right,
there's no record of the drowning at all. The person
who first started telling that story a long time ago
was somebody who was a psychic, and they said that
that's what happened, so it became true. The kicker is
(22:43):
when you say that no little girl drowned in the
pool is people who go like, well, there's a Jackie,
And to say that she didn't drown doesn't mean that
she doesn't exist. It just means that she didn't die
that way. Right, you know, So we would tell her
story a great deal, and because it interacts as an
intelligent haunting, I wouldn't want to think that an intelligent
(23:05):
child would remain in the place where such a horrible
thing happened. So we would tell her story and then
kind of convey to people if you were to think
back to your childhood, do you remember what it was
like the first time you ever dove, first time you
dove and you got it right, and how happy you
were and that moment of joy And for some people
maybe that's the happiest moment they ever have. Or you know,
(23:28):
maybe Jackie was playing marco polo with a little boy
in that pool, you know, on some voyage, and twenty
years later, maybe that little boy in her got married.
So there are other reasons for her to be drawn
to that place. We talk about that a lot. Actually,
our theory a lot is that these imprints can happen
not necessarily from tragedy, like you can feel just as
(23:49):
strongly about a tragic moment as you can about a
happy or positive one. And then there's also the idea
and I I don't know how you feel about this, but
the idea that maybe Jackie has been kind of willed
into existence from so many people believing in her. You know,
we've seen that before too. I've been investigating the Queen
Mary for a very long time. I don't want to
(24:10):
say like it's been a long time, and I know
I have sat in that pool room. I'm not sure
if it's open or going to be open again to
the public, but I have sat in there in the
dark trying to talk to Jackie, just really wanting to
hear from Jackie and thinking about Jackie and what happened
to Jackie. Multiply that by, however, many thousands of people
go into that space thinking that, and you might just
get a Jackie even if there was never a Jackie.
(24:33):
And we found that with is it be three forty?
You know, you guys did an STA session in there
on your Last Strange Escapes, and the New Kirks did
a session in there. That room is crazy active, like
there's people have stuff happening there, And there's always been
this legend of like, oh, somebody was murdered in b
three forty, or something bad happened in Big three forty.
(24:55):
The true story would be three forty is that when
Disney owned the ship. It was a haunted attraction, and
they put special effects in that room, things that would
open doors and knock, and you know, it was kind
of a spook show kind of experience. And then Disney
left the ship, and when they left the ship, they
did not turn any of that off. They literally just left.
So the new company comes in and people book this room,
(25:17):
and weird stuff is happening, and so many people are
being asked. You know, they're basically saying, I'm not staying
in this room. The doors keep opening, this is happening,
this is happening. So they decided to close the room
to the public, and this ledgend grows at the rooms
truly haunted. And then they got the room. They take
all of the you know, the drywall off the walls,
and they find all this stuff control panels and special
(25:39):
effects and realized that this was all made by man.
But now nobody wants to stay there. So a few
years ago they redesigned the room and they make it
a room once more and go, hey, come stay in
the famous haunted b three forty and now real stuff
is happening there. All the special effects are gone, but
people go in there for lots of different reasons. And
(26:01):
I hate to say this, but like once a night
I would meet somebody on the ship that would book
three forty or book some other room on B deck
because of its reputation. And they were people that were
recently bereaved, people that lost a loved one and had
this idea of, like, you know what, the Queen Mary
has haunted, I'm going to go stay in this haunted
room and then maybe I can talk to my husband,
(26:22):
my wife. And it's heartbreaking to meet those people. But
so many people have now gone into B three forty
and brought stuff with them. I think that's part of
the reason why there's those interactions is not that something
bad happened there, something good happened there. It's that every
person who stays in there brings stuff with them, you know.
And oh yeah, and I can tell you it has
(26:43):
such a reputation. Like I know my friend Julie Tremaine,
who I let her have that room to write a story.
She's a writer. She helped write my book, and I
let her stay in that room one night after Strange
Escapes was done with it so she could write a
story about staying and B three forty and she was like,
obviously it was scary, but she said her favorite part
(27:05):
of it was scaring people all night because people would
come and stand outside the door and they'd be like,
this is the room and they wouldn't realize someone was
in it, and she would bang on the door and
they go running down the hallway, And so they should
advertise that part of it too, because that sounds equally
as fun. Yeah, it's so, what is the status of
(27:26):
the Queen Mary right now? It's been in the news
so much like, do you know what's happening there? It's
really good news. We know more than we're allowed to say.
So the upside is is that's a good thing is
that they're working on getting our back open. Right now,
they're removing all of the lifeboats from the Queen and that's,
you know, caused a little bit of uproars some votes
because they want the boats to stay there. But those
(27:48):
boats were designed to hang the hats for as long
as they've been there, and the weight of them is
extreme and it's starting to pull the davit out structure.
So before the ship can reopen, they're doing some repairs
on her. They're taking those lifeboats off, they're going to
be replaced with a lightweight replica, so the Queen will
still have her look. But a lot of people don't
(28:10):
realize that of all the lifeboats that are hanging on
the Queen only two of them are original to the
Queen Mary. The rest of them came from other boats,
and the two original ones are being preserved and they'll
be put on display inside the Queen Mary, so you'll
actually still be able to visit them, and they'll still
be there um and that history won't go away. But
before people can go back and visit, and you know,
(28:31):
she has to be structurally sound and safe. She's been
closed for two years, and unfortunately she's not like a
building where you just unlock it and turn on the lights.
There's a lot of little things that they have to
do to get it open, and it will probably take
you a little bit of time to rehire everybody back
and get the place up and running again. You know,
as someone who has been kind of in the bowels
(28:53):
of that ship, I feel like common areas, what you
can see in the public is pretty well polished, but
when you start getting down into areas that are not open,
you can really see just how much deterioration has happened,
and like you know it, it makes you realize, like
what they are up against. So I think it's a
feat that she's reopening, and I think it's important, what
(29:16):
an important piece of history. And I did want to
talk about my wildest paranormal experience that I had there
and get your take on it. This was years and
years ago. I was in the boiler room, and this
was before they had kind of made the boiler room
a spot on the tour. So this was before there
were any walkways. It was like you went down there
at your own risk and there were no lights, nothing,
(29:39):
And so I went down there. We were doing an event.
This was years before even Strange Escapes, was before I
was even on TV or any of that. I went
down there with another investigator and we were basically just
kind of trying to plan the investigation and like the
path that was the safest for our attendees because it
was kind of treacherous down there, and so we you
(30:00):
were making our way back out and I had some
sort of light, so it's like a lantern in my flashlight,
and I saw distinctly the figure of this man walk
right by us. But it wasn't a whole person. This
was like a partial apparition, Like it literally kind of
went like part of his head, part of his torso
(30:22):
and like his right arm down to like his right hip,
and the rest of him was not there. But he
was walking very purposefully, did not see me. He was bald.
I could literally see sweat on the back of his
head and like brown overall type jumpsuit thing he was wearing.
And he just walked by and I went I was
(30:43):
like in shock, and I asked the person with me,
I'm like, did you just see that? He's like, what
the hell was that like? And I was like, I
don't know what that was. I've never seen anything like
that in my life because we just had like the flashlight,
but it was so distinct and the most bizarre thing.
Now I realized it was like a partial apparition, but
(31:03):
it just had such a defined cut off. And so
I then heard after this happened that there is a
spirit there. I feel like I can't remember the names
either Henry or Harry or like this report of a
man who potentially died. Have you heard about this as
anyone else seen this thing? Because we're lucky that I
am still an investigator after experience. It's actually like the
(31:28):
appearance of apparitions on the ship is a pretty common thing,
Like people see stuff like that all the time. I
think it's diminished in the boiler room since it's become
open to the public. Right, it's weird to me, Like
I think the Stanley is the same way. In the summer,
when the hotel is really busy, the activity goes way
way down, but when it's quieter, it seems to go up.
(31:50):
And I don't know why that is, but you're not
the first to see it or encounter it. And I
think it's something that because it's in this pattern of
always walking back and forth and people kind of see
him in the same spot that I do think it's
more of a residual thing of someone that's still going
about their job because there's never been really intelligent interactions
down there. Yeah, we get very frustrated because there's so
(32:12):
much stealing the ship. We always want to go do
st just down there, and you can't get a there's
no radio, you know, you canignal down there. But it's
an amazing place, So I'm not surprised that you had that.
And I think it's pretty cool that you had the
experience of actually getting to see it. Yeah, I mean
it was shocking. The same thing kind of happens in
B three forty when you're talking about doing like the
(32:33):
Method or the spirit Box experiment. It's like this kind
of you get very little radio feed in there. It
is mostly white noise, so when you hear a voice
coming out of it, it's very distinct and very strange.
So just wild. Where you did your show on the ship,
that area, Like I remember when you showed me that
and you're like, I'm making this into a theater. I
(32:55):
was like, I don't know how you're doing that because
that area is known to be haunted. Before you did that,
like we investigated in that space, it was just not used.
What was the effect of that when they were renovating
that and things. Did you have things happening? Obviously you're
doing a magic show, but there had to have been
things that went on that you were not facilitating. No,
they started probably the first week, the first week of
(33:18):
the show. These two ladies, they were sisters, and they
were sitting next to this one curtain and as they
were leaving, you know, I always tried to see everybody
when they leave the theater, and this woman stops and said,
you know, thank you so much. That was a lot
of fun. And they turned to start to walk away,
and she felt compelled to turn back around, and she says,
you know what I like best that you did a
couple of things in the show that only one or
(33:38):
two people could see, like it was special just for them,
and we don't do that, like we want everyone to
see everything. So I said, what do you mean and
she goes, oh, we just really appreciated the sailor. And
they said excuse me, and she was like, you know,
and she's like winking at me, like she, you know,
is in on the secret. She goes, the guy in
(33:59):
the sailor suit that you know, was dressed up like
a nineteen thirties sailor who peeks out from behind the curtain,
Oh my goodness, and where she saw that there's no access.
There is nobody dressed up, and there's absolutely no way
for human being to get there. There's none. And my
fiance and I just are looking at this woman and
my fiance is about to say like, oh my god,
(34:19):
and I just looked at her, So I'm glad you
enjoyed that, and she walked away. You know, I have
full body chills like at that this one section, and
I would see it from the stage. People sitting in
a certain part of the theater would always be turning
their head and looking down this hallway, and then afterwards
they would say they saw people our bartender. One night,
probably the third or fourth week, at the end of
(34:39):
the show, she came up to and says, did that
guy not like the show? And we go what guy?
And she goes, well, there was a guy in a
gray suit that left like ten minutes into the show,
and from the stage, you can't leave the room without
me seeing you. And nobody was wearing a gray suit.
Nobody was dressed like that, and nobody had left the
theater during the show, and we were like, carry nobody
(35:00):
left and she didn't see and you know, she saw
a human being as three dimensional, as real as anybody else.
But the guy didn't say anything to her, just walked out.
But we started investigating in the space after that, and
we kind of took every lesson that we've ever learned
from you and Grant and Adam, and we put it
all to work and we started really using k two
(35:23):
ands this method in the space, and we filmed everyone
because we wanted to like have we want to have
a record that we could go back and go, Okay,
this is consistent, this isn't. So we would investigate with
about twelve people late at night and back on my
fiance and I would we would demonstrate ESTs, and then
we would try to get out of it, you know,
and just let the participants do everything right. Mainly because
(35:47):
I'm a magician, I felt like, if anything happens and
I'm the cause of it, people will see it as
a trick. But if you just I want them to
do it. So we started doing that. But when we
would do investigations, we would tell the guests nothing. We
wouldn't anybody about previous experiences. We wouldn't tell them what
to expect, because if you tell somebody a name and
then that name suddenly comes out of estus, you've kind
(36:08):
of spoiled the source of it, right. So we started
filming these and the interactions were profound, to the point
that we were having full conversations with someone and over
the course of a year it became a relationship. Because
this was something that we were doing at least once
a week, if not two or three. It turned into
something I think was a huge advantage in the sense
that most paranormal investigators save up for a year just
(36:31):
to go investigate one place and they only get a
couple of days there. This was like investigating your own home,
you know, so you know what's normal and what feels right,
and you know what I mean, like just the vibes
of the place is different. Yeah, And I mean that's
a powerful tool to have that ability to kind of
reinvestigate it over and over again, because, like you were saying,
(36:51):
you do build a relationship or almost a friendship, and
that might be something. I mean, I'm just speculating what
life is like on the other side or for a
ghost or spirit. But if they come to expect that,
can you imagine like what a joy that is in
their routine all of a sudden that's something new to them. Oh,
I can go here at this time these nights, and
these people are familiar with are there and we can
have a conversation. Some of the places I've been to
(37:14):
over and over again, I've actually gotten e vps of
them saying my name not to intimate me would be
like hi, Amy, like they remember me having that and
the Queen Mary is like a major job perk. I
would say it was heartbreaking. The first time we investigated
down on the ropehold, we had somebody else in est
us you know, just this. I think it was a
journalist that was there just to kind of do a
story on us. And this guy's in the headphones and
(37:37):
we started asking questions and the answers that we got
initially was you know, as anybody here, would you like
to talk to us? And it was go away? Would
you please go away? And we're like, yeah, we'll leave
your space if you're not comfortable with us being here.
And the next thing the guy in Esta says is,
I'm sick of doing tricks. You want me to do tricks.
(37:58):
I'm not here to do tricks. I live here. M h.
It just punches you in the face because you think
of how many people have walked through that space in
the last twenty years, thirty years and did shaven a
haircut on the bulkhead. I mean, I try to tell
people that all the time. This is not a show
for you. You're talking to a real human being potentially
who's in a situation that we can't even begin to
(38:19):
fathom they're not here to knock for you or perform
for you. You were here to help them or bring
them some comfort. I think that's the perfect analogy and
way to demonstrate it. But I've seen that many times
in overly investigated places, and I think it's fair, Like,
I get it. I understand how that happens. People go
in wanting to be scared. They think it's cool, We've
(38:41):
all done it. It's fine, we've all been there. But
it's something that I think if you're truly interested in
the paranormal and ghosts, it's very smart to kind of
move past that and humanize them. Well, I'm glad you
guys were there for that. It was incredible because they
literally was you know, Becca is very sweet. And the
other thing was crazy, is like I dress, you know,
in suits and ties and hats and look like I
(39:03):
walked out of the nineteen thirties, and Becca's does the same.
She wears vintage and her hairs and victory roles. And
when we investigate on the Queen Mary and we're dressed
that way, we have interactions. The few times that we
try to investigate on like a day off and showed
up in jeans and a hoodie. Nothing. Well, this is
exciting for me next time I go to the Queen Mary.
But it was a little cosplay involved. I love. I
(39:26):
don't know if it's just a familiar thing, but I
think it helps. I think it helps, you know. I
think there is something to adding that kind of humanistic triggers.
They're a little more comfortable if you look like who
you're supposed to look like. I love that. So now
tell me how can people find you? What are you
doing now? I can't keep track of you? So if
people want to come see Aiden Sinclair work his magic,
(39:49):
where do they go? Where do they find your schedule?
Right now, we are at the Stanley Hotel and we
have a brand new theater there called Aiden Sinclair's Underground,
and it's kind of a speakeasy behind the bookcase see
great theater. That's seventy people and we do shows over
the winner Friday, Saturday and Sunday and over Memorial Day
to Halloween. The room runs seven days a week. We
(40:10):
bring out guest acts from the Magic Castle and from
the Edinburgh Fringe Fest, so it's become this place where
some of the finest magicians in the world appear over
the summer and they're just incredible shows. And when we're
not doing that, we're in the process of getting our
room back open on the Queen Mary, which we hope
to see back in business by the end of the year.
So that's the little bit of news for Queen Mary aficionados.
(40:32):
I think that you'll find yourself walk in our decks
by the time of the year ends. I think it'll
be a slow and staged opening and it might be
a little while before the hotel opens, but she is
going to come back to life and she's gonna, i think,
be very happy to see people return. And then around
the Halloween season we're usually around the Winchester Mystery House
as well, so it's been an adventure living the dream. Well,
(40:53):
you know, I'm excited to hopefully see you again very soon.
I really appreciate you taking the time to at all
things Queen Mary with us, so friends, if you're listening,
please go see Aidan. I promise you will not be disappointed.
He's also just one of the nicest people you could know.
So thank you so much, aid and I appreciate it.
Any time and safe travels and hopefully we see you soon.
(41:21):
The Queen Mary certainly has it all. History, beauty, ghosts,
at least one X Files episode filmed on board, and
a knack for continuing to defy the odds. It's funny
how often I come across places like this in my
line of work, massive undertakings that stand out not just
as a bit of history, but a home for ghosts.
(41:43):
Makes me think of her right now, quietly in the harbor,
no guests, no regular employees, just silence. Or is there
something tells me, even without the presence of the living,
the Queen Mary is very much awake and awaiting our return.
I'm Amy Bruney and this was Haunted Road. Haunted Road
(42:18):
is a production of I Heart Radio and Grimm and
Mild from Aaron Mankey. The podcast is written and hosted
by Amy Bruney. Executive producers include Aaron Manky, Alex Williams,
and Matt Frederick. The show is produced by rema Ill
Kali and Trevor Young. Research by Taylor Haggerdorn, Amy Bruney
and Robin Miniter. For more podcasts from I Heart Radio,
(42:42):
visit the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever
you get your podcasts.
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