March 2, 2022 • 41 mins
Ohio State Reformatory in Mansfield, Ohio started as a well meaning facility - intent on rehabilitating offenders who weren't yet hardened criminals. But, that changed. Now, hundreds of deaths later, this imposing gothic structure is 250,000 square feet of grisly history and of course, filled with lots of ghosts.
Special guest: Greg Feketik
Visit www.strange-escapes.com if you'd like to vacation at haunted locations around the world, and catch season 6 of Kindred Spirits on Travel Channel or streaming on Discovery+
Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.com
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
Welcome to Haunted Road, a production of I Heart Radio
and Grimm and Mild from Aaron Minky Listener. Discretion is advised.
(00:22):
In May of Adam Burry and I were leading groups
of people through an investigation in the solitary confinement wing
of Ohio State Reformatory. Every hour, another group of fifteen
or so nervously excited folks would file into the pitch
black space, and Adam and I would lead them through
a paranormal investigation. During this though, we tried an experiment
(00:46):
we'd never done before before we did anything investigation wise.
We would ask each person to individually walk down the
long corridor of fifteen or so cells, with only the
moonlight coming in a few barred windows to light their way.
In complete silence. We would watch them, one by one
(01:06):
slowly make their way back and forth. Each time it
felt like an eternity. Each time we all held our
breath for them, and each time they would meet Adam
in the far corner and whisper which cell made them
the most uncomfortable walking by it All in all, close
to one people made that walk that night, and all
(01:28):
but two named the exact same cell. Let's visit Ohio
State Reformatory where the hauntings began before it was ever
even built. I'm Amy Brunei, and this is haunted road.
(01:57):
Ohio State Reformatory seemed deston to be haunted. Even the
land it was built on had seen plenty of casualties
immediately prior to the construction of the Reformatory, The field
upon which it would later be built was used as
a training camp for soldiers during the Civil War. At
the outbreak of the Civil War in eighteen sixty one,
(02:18):
many northern areas, like Ohio quickly scrambled to gather and
organize what was left of the various militias that had
at one time existed and to induct them into the
state militaries. As part of this effort, in Ohio, then
Governor William Dennison ordered the creation of several camps across
the state, one of which was named Camp Bartley after
(02:39):
a former governor of Ohio named Mordechai Bartley, who was
from Mansfield and was located just north of the present
day Ohio State Reformatory building. Later, the camp was referred
to in wartime documents as Camp Mansfield. Camp Mansfield was
home base for a number of local regiments, including the
thirty second O V I and fifteen V I in
(03:01):
eighteen sixty one, the hundred second O V I and
I in eighteen sixty two. The camp was occupied by
other Ohio units as well when their own camps were
over full or otherwise unavailable. Many of these regiments, especially
the thirty second, would seem massive casualties in battle on
many occasions, though the grim Reaper would claim the living
(03:24):
before they ever got the chance to step onto a
battlefield to engage the enemy. Especially due to disease, which
killed overwhelmingly more soldiers during the war than injuries sustained
in combat. Camps such as Camp Mordechai Bartley were populated
by young soldiers who had never before been exposed to
a large variety of common contagious diseases, and were plagued
(03:46):
by outbreaks of smallpox, measles, chicken pox, moms, whooping cough, typhoid,
and scurvy. In October of eighteen sixty two, Camp Mansfield
also became home to a decided a different group of
people from the military trainees, political prisoners. All of the
men incarcerated at Camp Mansfield where public officials, politicians, or
(04:09):
newspaper publishers who had defied the US government by encouraging
young men to ignore summons to war service and dodge
the military draft. By eighteen sixty seven, the war had
been concluded for a few years, and it was being
noticed and publicly talked about that in the wake of
the war, the state penitentiary was being increasingly filled with
younger men who were first time offenders, for whom there
(04:32):
was still hope of reforming into respectable members of society,
and a fear was developing that confining such youths in
the same company as hardened prisoners would only solidify criminal
habits in the minds of these young men and make
any such reformation impossible. Officials began discussing the need for
some kind of intermediate penitentiary which would house criminals who
(04:54):
were too old for the juvenile correction center, but whose
crimes were minor enough that they did not warrant being
sent to the Ohio State Penitentiary. The former site of
Camp Bartley Mansfield was floated as a possible location for
the construction of such an intermediate penitentiary. Eventually it was
selected as the site of the forthcoming institution. The buildings
(05:16):
that would come to make up the Reformatory were designed
by Cleveland architect Levi Scofield. While the initial process of
considering the need and planning for the construction of the
Reformatory began in eighteen sixties seven, it wasn't until eighteen
eighty four that legislation in Columbus was finally passed calling
(05:37):
for its construction. It then took two years to convince
the State Board of Managers that Mansfield was the ideal
place for the new institution. With plans in place, the
city of Mansfield raised ten thousand dollars to buy thirty
acres on which the prison would sit. The State of
Ohio bought another hundred fifty acres connected to this land
for twenty thousand dollars. All told, between the and purchases
(06:00):
and the building, when the Ohio State Reformatory was finally completed,
the total cost was just over one point three million dollars.
Construction began in November of eighteen eighty six. The Ohio
State Reformatory is the largest castle like structure in Ohio.
It is one of the five largest in the United States.
(06:22):
It occupies more than two hundred fifty thousand square feet
with its towering stone walls and sprawling footprint. It is
listed in the Guinness Book of World Records as having
the largest freestanding cellblock, which is the East Cellblock and
stands in impressive six stories in all. Evidently, the six
story cellblock was a later edition, having been built in
(06:42):
nineteen o eight. If you're a movie buff you may
have in fact seen many parts of it. The Shawshank
Redemption was filmed there, as have been many other movies,
TV shows and music videos. The building was designed with
beauty and a church like aura. Schofield envisioned two a
fifty thousand square feet of massive stone that would be
(07:03):
a blend of several styles of architecture, Romanesque, Queen Anne
and Victorian Gothic. Construction was finally underway, and with the
first cornerstone being laid, there was much ado about the
entire event. The cornerstone itself was made of smooth gray granite,
but the rest of the building stone was quarried locally
from an area known as the Devil's Punch Bowl. Initially,
(07:26):
the Reformatory was constructed to house eighteen hundred inmates. In
mid September eighteen, the first inmates arrived, despite the fact
that some parts of the prison were not yet complete,
one fifty young men who had until that point been
kept at the State Penitentiary in Columbus. As soon as
these prisoners arrived, they were put to work digging the
(07:47):
building sewer system, which had not yet been completed. The
Ohio State Reformatory was developed along the lines of the
Auburn system, which you may be familiar with from our
episode on the Eastern State Penitentiary. It was also called
the Silent system. One of the primary elements of the
Auburn system was that while prisoners were meant to be
(08:09):
kept in solitary cells at night, during the day they
worked alongside others, although were required to maintain complete silence,
unlike the Pennsylvania system, which largely kept prisoners in isolation
from one another almost the entire time. The idea was
that communication was necessary to maintain one sense of self.
(08:29):
By prohibiting communication, the inmate sense of self would disintegrate,
with the result that they would be much less likely
to cause problems, attempt escapes, etcetera. At one time, there
were one thousand, six hundred twenty six men and boys
who were students at the reformatory, and they were trained
by sixteen teachers, learning subjects such as math, reading, English, economy, history,
(08:54):
and geography. As mentioned, the prisoners learned and practiced various traits,
much of which can tributed directly back to the sustaining
of the prison. In addition to being responsible for much
of the construction of the reformatory itself, inmates also did
farm work, eventually growing and raising most of their own food.
They made clothing, they worked in a modern in house
(09:15):
print shop, and even made furniture. The furniture factory was
opened in nineteen twelve under the supervision of H. O. Hansen,
and produced high quality items that were well known for
their beautiful handiwork and finishes. It was recorded in nineteen
thirty one that eighteen thousand pieces of furniture were sold,
with one hundred fifty inmates employed. At that time. The
(09:37):
prison also had a machine shop, shoe factory, and other
trade facilities on site in which the inmates worked. The
shoe factory made shoes of various types for men, women,
and children. In nineteen thirty three, there were eleven thousand,
seven hundred forty eight pairs of women's and girls shoes made,
and twenty five thousand, three hundred sixty five pair of
(09:59):
men in boys shoes sold. Styles ranged from oxfords to
high heels for women and waterproof men's boots. The grounds
also had an in house fire department and lumber kiln,
chapel and gymnasium, hospital, library, barbershop, power plant, and other facilities.
The hospital was a ninety bed facility that employed a
(10:20):
full staff of doctors, nurses, and other personnel. The hospital
stood three stories high and extended off the east cell
block in a northward direction. On the third floor, there
was a medical ward, private rooms, baths, a linen area,
and a room for highly contagious patients. The reformatory has
its own cemetery located on the grounds. There are over
(10:41):
two hundred headstones that were placed as inmates died of old, age, disease,
or illness. Inmates burried there also include those who died
of natural causes, but also quite a few murder victims
and others who ended their own lives. These are the
graves of folks whose bodies went unclaimed by their families.
Graves in the cemetery are marked with the inmate number
(11:01):
for each grave, but no names. For the first half
century of its operation, the Reformatory kept to its vision
of primarily serving moderate criminals and intending to reform them.
For many years, it was touted as one of the
best institutions of its sort in the United States. Over time, however,
(11:22):
things began to change. By the early nineteen thirties, overcrowding
had become a serious problem at the Reformatory, and it
became progressively worse. Deteriorating conditions peaked in nineteen seventy eight,
when a coalition of churches and civic groups filed a
lawsuit on behalf of the inmates. The Council for Human
Dignity claimed that the prisoners constitutional rights were being violated.
(11:46):
There were two thousand, two hundred inmates boarded in nineteen
seventy eight in a facility that was meant to house
twelve hundred. The lawsuit charged that there were brutalizing and
inhumane conditions in three The lawsuit was resolved by prison
officials promising to make improvements and ultimately to close the
cell blocks by the end of nineteen eighty six. This
(12:08):
deadline was eventually extended. In nineteen eight seven. The building
was listed on the National Register of Historic Places. In
December nineteen ninety, the last staff and inmates moved to
the Mansfield Correctional Institute. All in all and estimated one
hundred fifty five thousand men and boys passed through its gates,
(12:28):
serving time for their crimes committed. As noted, more than
two people died at the reformatory during its ninety four
years and operations. Deaths occurred due to several causes. As
with just about any institution in which a significant number
of people live in close quarters, and especially one prior
to many of the significant medical advances of the last
(12:50):
half of the twentieth century, widespread illness and resultant death
was a constant threat. The most serious of such threats was,
perhaps unsurprisingly, tuberculosis. TB is highly contagious. Like the common cold,
it spreads through the air. When people sneeze, cough, talk,
or spit, they propel t B germs into the air.
(13:12):
A person needs only to inhale a small number of
these to become infected with the dreadful condition. I feel
like we're all very familiar with respiratory diseases. After the
last couple of years, inmates of the Ohio State reformatory
may not have noticed any symptoms of illness until the
disease was quite advanced. Even then, the symptoms loss of weight, fever,
loss of energy, poor appetite, a productive cough, and night
(13:35):
sweats might easily be blamed on another disease. Several inmates
at the reformatory took their own lives. The first, or
at least the first reported happened in mid May nine.
Nineteen year old Marshall Miller tore his bedsheet into strips
and with those hanged himself from the upper bunk of
his cell. In nineteen sixteen, a local newspaper reported brooding
(13:58):
over his incarsory in the Ohio State Reformatory for having
shot his sweetheart following a quarrel. Anthony mcculick, a Hungarian inmate,
attempted suicide shortly before noon by jumping from the top
range of cells in the West cell Block, a distance
of more than sixty feet to the cement floor below.
(14:19):
He landed feet foremost was such force that the ankle
bones were driven through his feet and through his shoes.
There is no chance of his recovery, According to the
attending physicians at the reformatory hospital in May nineteen seventy four,
an inmate at the Reformatory, twenty four year old Harold Sykes,
who had been sentenced in November nineteen seventy three to
(14:41):
ten to twenty five years at the institution for robbery,
killed himself by hanging himself from a towel rack with
a twisted sheet. The most famous of these, however, occurred
on January thirtieth, nineteen sixty. That evening, twenty two year
old James Lockhart, inmate five four six seventy three, who
in habited cell number thirteen and who had been at
(15:02):
the reformatory since October nineteen fifty five for assault with
the intent to kill, told the guards at supper time
but he did not want to go to dinner as such.
While the rest of the inmates headed to the mess hall,
Lockhart remained in his cell. Lockhart doused himself and the
mattress in his cell was some kind of lighter fluid,
and set himself ablaze. Two guards at some point rushed
(15:24):
in to try to put the fire out, and got
badly burned in the process, but Lockhart ran to the
far corner of his cell and put the burning mattress
between him and the cell door blocking anyone from getting
to him. The coroner declared that technically Lockhart died from asphyxiation,
but his body was obviously horribly burned as well. According
to another inmate, and this is really awful, his body
(15:47):
peeled off in chunks as they pulled him along the
catwalk to the infirmary. According to a former guard who
saw the suicide firsthand, the body was unclaimed by his family,
so it was put in a simple wooden box and
buried in the prison cemetery. Clearly, with history like this,
it's no wonder the Reformatory is reported to be very,
(16:08):
very haunted. According to some sources, the paranormal character of
the area upon which the Reformatory would later be built
goes all the way back to the period during its
tenure as a Civil War camp. Supposedly, Camp Bartley had
only been open for business for a couple of months
in the late spring of eighteen sixty one, when a
soldier began complaining of terrifying visits from unearthly spirits. These
(16:31):
visitations left the soldiers so horrified that he was deemed
unfit for duty and sent to an asylum to recover. Also, supposedly.
Other military trainees and officials began noticing around this time
that items would sometimes go missing or be moved without explanation,
and the ammunition tests would fail when performed in a
particular part of the camp. Not long after, it was
(16:53):
common for all based at Camp Mordecai to report hearing
whispers and muffled voices where there should only be silent
In the northeastern corner of the training ground. Recruits even
reported hearing voices that would emanate from the ground, causing
them to question their sanity. Many of the haunting stories, though,
have to do with the reformatory itself. The reformatory sees
(17:15):
over one hundred thousand visitors a year, and reports of
activity are rampant both during daytime tours and evening ghost tours.
Visitors often report rocks being thrown at them being scratched,
loud voices including screams, cell doors slamming shut, footsteps, more
shadow figures than you can imagine, and lots of full
(17:35):
bodied apparitions. It is not uncommon for visitors to see
themselves out, never to return. Many former and current law
enforcement officials are associated with the maintenance of the building
or come to visit for historical reasons, and they seem
to get more of a response than others. But don't
take my word for it. I've got my friend Greg Faketic,
(17:56):
lead paranormal investigator at the Reformatory and retired police officer,
coming up next to tell us all about the most
common paranormal reports at the building and how even you
can visit and experience it for yourself if you're brave enough.
(18:18):
All right, So I am now joined by Greg Faketick,
who is the co founder of try Sea ghost Hunters,
and he is also the lead paranormal investigator at Ohio
State Reformatory, so basically the perfect person to talk to
about this stuff. So Hi Greg, Hi Amy, how are you.
(18:39):
I'm good, I'm good. Thanks for joining us. Now. I've
met Greg over the years because I've been back to
the Reformatory I don't know, at least two or three
times at this point, and I've had some pretty wild
experiences there. Now, where is it that you always stick
me for those investigations? We put you down in solitary
confined it that's right, that's right. I knew I was
(19:02):
somewhere underneath, surrounded by darkness, that's what I remember. Yeah. So, actually,
last time I was there, I did a really interesting experiment.
Adam was stationed with me as well, and so there's
this whole row of cells that go down this very
(19:22):
dark hallway, obviously, and every single group that came in,
we would have each person walk up and down the
cell block by themselves, which alone is actually quite terrifying,
and then we would have them come back and secretly
whisper into Adam's ear which cell was the most uncomfortable
(19:45):
for them when they walked past it. So we did this.
We I think we had four groups of maybe fifteen people,
and I tell you what, but then at the end
we would figure out which cell it was. And the
first group, every single person picked the same cell. And
I don't know if you're familiar with it, but it's
like you go down this kind of corrid or there's
like a almost a doorway kind of in between the
(20:07):
cord or if that makes sense. It was always just
past that doorway that cell on the left, and then
it happened again. Second, third, fourth group. There were maybe
a couple of people who named the very end as
the scariest moment for them, but it was so strange
that every single person felt that same uncomfortable, heavy feeling
(20:28):
going by the exact same cell. And so that was
an interesting experience. So what is with that area? You
know that that's that's funny that you say that, because
my wife Cathy is attracted to that cell. She's been
in that cell doing e VP sessions and she's gotten
some weird stuff. We like using the iPhone voice memo
(20:53):
because you can see the graph, so you can basically
see e vps or whatever is going on. So she
sits in there and she has her recorder going and
all of a sudden, the graph is going crazy when
she's not saying anything. You know that she stops and
she plays it back and she there's a whole bunch
of movement, like there's guys in there with her. It's
(21:16):
really interesting that that she captures that, and it's really
interesting that a lot of people, including the groups that
were with you, were attracted to that cell. Yeah, you know,
I like to do kind of those experiments where there's
no room for confirmation bias or anything like that, Like
we had no knowledge of you guys investigating in that
(21:37):
cell or anything prior. So I just like to tell
investigators to go by your feeling a lot, you know,
because that's just our animal instinct is if there's something
not right, you know, the hair goes up on the
back of your neck and you get that feeling like
you should be extra cautious. And I think we sense
that if there is some sort of energy around. So
(21:57):
I don't know who's in that cell, but I know
I'm directly on the other side. I had another experience
where I was walking back and forth and I was
coming back from something, and there was just a man,
like a full figure of a man, standing in the
middle of the corridor, and I couldn't even tell if
he was real or not. I was like, is that
(22:18):
one of our attendees? Like who is this person? And
so I watched by I had the creepiest feeling, and
I turned around and he's gone. And then again I
heard people saw this shadow figure down there a lot.
So is that something else you've heard in that area? Oh? Yeah,
people see shadow figures, big dark shadow figures down there.
(22:38):
In fact, I've been investigating over thirty years and I've
rarely seen an apparition. But one of the apparitions I
have seen was down in solitary confinement, and that was
just last month. I had a private investigation that night
and I was given the guests a tour and were
(23:00):
walking by those metal cells, those isolation cells, and as
I look into one, I swore there was somebody standing
in there, and it's like one of those things where
I jumped back. I was like, oh wow, you know.
But the guests that was right behind me, she saw
it too and she started crying, so she validated what
(23:22):
I thought I saw. So that it's getting it seems
like it's getting more active. But you know, there have
been a few documented murders down there. Yeah, there's a
lot of energy, oh for sure. For sure outside of
solitary confinement. What do you think is the most active
(23:43):
area in the place. I have two locations, the whole
third floor in the administration portion, which is kind of
weird because it was administration remains weren't really there, but
they're probably wandering around. And the West Attic. I don't
think I've been to either of those. The West Attic
is hands down the most active location there. What happens
(24:07):
up there, oh man, you get we get stuff thrown
at us. You'll hear footsteps, you'll be touched. You'll see
visible balls of light up there. You can see shadow
figures in the doorway, ambient light coming in from the
chapel area. People have been attacked up there. It's just
(24:30):
a really really intense feeling. I've I've had experiences up
there that I can't explain. You know, I've been touched.
But it's really dark up there, and sometimes you can
feel an ice coldness walking around you. And one time,
this is weird because it's already dark and you can't
see your hand in front of your face, but it
(24:53):
just got darker. It was like somebody just put something
over my eyes and like closing my eyes really tight.
And I've never experienced the darker than dark. That was
kind of crazy. A lot of people have a lot
of different experiences up there. We had some police officers
(25:13):
up there in uniform after our Blood prison our Hunted
House attraction, and they actually had stuff being thrown at them.
They actually had marks on their uniforms where they were
being hit. Jeez. I mean, I guess they probably wouldn't
be very popular in there. You no, no, uh, you
know seeing the uniforms. Yeah, But now I'm a retired
(25:36):
police officer, and I've never had a problem up there
or anywhere in the prison where I've been like attacked.
I've been touched, I've had my keys polled, But you know,
I talked with the guys. I showed them respect because
I'm there all the time and I don't want any problems. Yeah,
but you know, I always feel like it's interesting how
(25:58):
I meet a lot of either law enforcement or retired
law enforcement. I meet a lot of them involved in
paranormal investigation and a lot of them involved in places
like the Reformatory, like you know, like even like Missouri
State Penitentiary and stuff. I find that they do really
actively either like to investigate or just also just kind
(26:19):
of historically try to maintain a place like that. Is
that why you got involved with the Reformatory? You know
what it could be. I mean, we've been a police officer,
you know, we like investigating. We like trying to a
piece together facts to solve a crime. So it's almost
the same thing. You know, you're trying to investigate, You're
(26:39):
trying to figure out what's going on here, what's causing this.
So I think they go hand in hand. But there's
something about the building. But The first time I investigated
there was two thousand and four, and the building just
like it just reached out to me and grabbed me.
That first night, I said I want to work here,
(27:00):
and when I retired, I started volunteering at the Reformatory.
There's just something about the building. You know, you're not
the first person to say something like that to me
about these haunted locations. They do kind of take on
a life of their own, and there is something oddly
comforting about them. I don't know how to describe it,
you know, Like I feel that from the Reformatory, and
(27:21):
I don't know too Like I I think I also
really enjoy just kind of the family atmosphere, like you
and your team. You're also devoted to what you do,
and everybody knows each other so well and like always
so helpful, really great with questions, and so that might
be part of it too, But I always feel very
at home there. Strangely enough. Well, that's a good thing.
(27:42):
That's a good thing. The spirits that are there, you know,
they're not all bad. They're not all bad. We've had
some really helpful ones when we get e vps where
they will actually help you m M. But you know,
you get some bad ones up there, but yeah, it's
it's like a family atmosphere, the volunteers, the staff members,
(28:03):
it's like our home. Oh absolutely. And I'd say that
to people a lot when they go in and investigate
a place like that, like, don't make a blanket judgment
as far as who you're talking. I mean, I've said
that on the podcast before. I also tell that when
I'm leading groups in there, I say, hey, you don't
know why someone is here, how they ended up here,
what was going on in their life like that. You
can't make judgments on someone just because they ended up
(28:24):
in a place like this. And I think that's really
helpful in investigating locations like the reformatory has that is
that kind of a philosophy you share as well? Yeah,
because you know what, there were probably a lot of
innocent people that were incarcerated there. So yeah, I mean
(28:45):
you don't know people's back stories or anything, just like
you know the living. I mean, we don't know what
these people are going through or what has happened to
them in their lives. So and I know a lot
of people are judgmental, but unless you know that person
or know what's going on, in their life. You know,
it's you shouldn't be judging. And these guys they're they're
(29:05):
serving their time. They committed crimes and their serving their time.
You know, there they lost their freedom. Yeah. I sometimes
wonder if they remain in places like that as kind
of a self imposed sentence, or if it's kind of
that whole idea that they just they didn't know anything else.
They were there for so long and they're afraid to
(29:26):
move on to whatever happens next. I will say that
the second aghost starts throwing things at me, that I
might get a little nasty. You're not allowed to throw
things right, right, and that's you know. Or when we're
up in the attic, it's like, do not throw things
at us. Yeah, it's boundaries. Yeah, we always tell them that.
In fact, I was up there last night and it's like,
(29:49):
you can throw things, just don't throw things at us.
I mean, if you want to throw a rock or
something down at the end of the attic, that's fine.
Just don't throw anything at us. Yeah, I mean that's fair.
I would say that's fair. Yeah, you're right. Yeah, I
mean I'm treating you guys with respect. And I tell
everybody treat them with respect, especially up here because there
(30:10):
were a lot of a lot of violent inmates up there. Yeah,
I'm gonna have I don't know that I've been up there.
I'm gonna have to go check that area out next
time I have to put you up there. Okay, well
let's see. Well we'll talk about that later. So okay,
So now as far as um people who visit, like,
I know, you run obviously a lot of private investigations
(30:31):
there and in events, and there's also just tours. Do
you ever have people come through who are just have
to leave like they've had like they just have an
experience and they are done. Oh oh yeah, oh yeah
that that that happens. It happens on the private haunts,
that happens on the public houns, even happened like during
the day tours. Yeah, I feel like those would be
(30:53):
the ones more apt to that because I feel like
they're probably taking the tour not really thinking about ghosts,
just really wanting to learn history, and then if something
happens in that instance, they'd probably be more you know,
likely to vacate the premises pretty quickly. Are there any
more memorable instances of that you can think of Well,
I mean, I don't work day tours, so I'm there
(31:16):
at night much I love. I do know of one
incidents where a woman was taken photos. She wasn't investigating.
She was taking photos and she was up on the
third floor in the administration portion and took a couple
of photos. One of the photos freaked her out, um,
(31:36):
and she immediately found a staff member who then took
photos of her camera and sent them to me. I
don't know if she actually left, but it did freak
her out, and she wasn't there investigating. She was est there,
you know, the day tours. Now, speaking of that, have
you heard accounts of paranormal activity happening there while it
(31:59):
was in operation? Yes? Yes. In fact, I was talking
with a former guard last night and he was a
guard there from nine to closed in and oh yeah,
he had experiences there, and he was telling me about
other staff members who had experiences there that they couldn't explain. Yeah,
(32:22):
that's got to be tough too, because you have to,
you know, keep a brave face on, especially in instances
like that. What are the more frequent paranormal encounters people
have when they're there? A lot of the times you
know obviously they're e vps, but it seems that lately
two people have been seeing shadow figures throughout hearing voices,
(32:45):
and those can be really creepy, especially if you're in
a room by yourself and you hear a voice. People
have been hearing growling too, that seems to be increasing.
And there again that's up on the third floor. I
know that when and I think we did an event
their last May. I think yours was maybe one of
my might have been my first event back after the pandemic.
(33:08):
I think it was actually because I remember just being like, wow, people,
you know, and it was just it was this whole
like it was the first time back and so long.
I got emotional a few times because I love meeting
other investigators and fans of the paranormal and it's like
one of my favorite things to do, and to not
be able to do it for almost two years was
very hard. Actually at that point is just a year
(33:29):
and a half, but it was long enough that I
felt it. I think that that too, was one of
the first times people were investigating there again. Do you
think that having this space empty for so long and
not interacting, do you think that affected the haunting in
some way. I think it did, especially in one area there.
(33:50):
Get up in the third floor edmin. We're actually having
people get physically attacked up there. A lot of people
were getting scratched on the back. Gee. I mean I
was up there. I was doing a tour for a
private investigation. And also the guy said, how complaining about
a burning sensation on his back. We lifted up his
shirt and there's these really you know, they almost looked
(34:12):
like bruises on his back. So there was a lot
of attacks up there, and that was like after the pandemic.
In fact, that most of them happened between March and
May last year. Ah yeah, that was right when you
started going back. I feel like they must have been
used to being alone for a while. Yeah. Yeah, And
(34:34):
we couldn't figure it out. And in fact, it's the
same area that that woman captured something weird on her camera,
So there was something going up there. I mean it's
died down now up there, we haven't really had any
tax but of course we haven't had any parent omal events.
It sounds like you need to have people sign waivers.
(34:57):
It's funny because when I when I'm up there of
the tours, I'm like, okay, everybody, you you did sign
your waivers right. Usually I'm afraid people are going to
fall downstairs or something, but that sounds pretty intense. The
whole scratching thing. Yeah, I always hear that that when
people have that experience of being scratched, it doesn't necessarily
(35:20):
feel like your traditional scratch. It often presents as kind
of either a burning sensation or an ice cold sensation.
So yeah, I said, I hear that time and time again.
I don't know how that works. I don't know why.
You know, sometimes people associate the idea of like scratches
with something negative or demonic, but in my experience, it's
(35:42):
many times something either or a person the spirit of
a person just wanting either you to leave, or sometimes
they're just really desperate to get your attention. You know.
It's almost like when you think of someone like, you know,
trying to save themselves or grab onto something, they just
kind of get overly, you know, kind of overshoot the basket,
as they say. So it can mean, you know, a
(36:04):
couple of different things in conjunction with other evidence that
may present itself at the same time. I agree. I mean,
you know what we don't know what it's like on
the other side, and here we are, we got investigators
trying to communicate, right, Maybe that's they're trying to communicate back, Yeah, exactly.
You know, we don't know enough to kind of to
(36:26):
assume how they're going to come across. So it's hard
not to take that automatically as being something negative. But
you know, there's been many times where I've had something
you know, physically interact like push or shove or something,
but then at the same time I'm getting e vps
that say help me or don't leave, or you know,
it's it's this kind of desperate act. I almost feel like,
(36:47):
well that being said, now that I'm sure everyone just
wants to line up and get in there, right, yes,
come on, come on. So I know you do a
really great conference every year, and I think I've been
the last two I believe, maybe even more than I
lose track. But it's lovely how you kind of people
(37:08):
can go into the Reformatory and you know, there's a
lot of vendors and people like me that you can
come up and meet, and then there's lectures all day
and then at night we get to investigate, which is cool.
So can you tell a little bit about that and
how people can get involved. Oh? Sure, we do an event.
This year's event is May twentie through the twenty second.
It's called Parasicon. This year it's called Parisicon three. It
(37:32):
would have been four but got canceled because of the pandemic.
But it is a paranormal and psychic convention that is
held at the House State Reformatory. Each year it gets bigger.
This year we have ninety three vendor tables with over
eighty vendors, and we do have some great celebrities. I
have Amy that will be there, and Adam will be there,
(37:55):
Chip Coffee will be there and a host of other celebrities.
And for our event, it costs nothing to get into
our event. You pay your admission into the House State Reformatory.
You can do yourself guided tours throughout the prison and
you can come, you know, check out the vendors, go
meet the celebrities, listening to the talks. That Saturday night,
(38:18):
May one, we have a celebrity ghost hunt and we
do have tickets available for that. And this year we're
doing something different for Friday night, We're doing a v
I P Meet and greet where a certain amount of
guests can mingle and hang out with the celebrities and
they'll be appetizers there. There will be a bar there,
(38:39):
we'll have a DJ there, so it'll just be a
relaxed feeling prior to the big event. For more information
on the paras Icon, you can go to www dot
paras Icon dot com. That's p A r A P
S Y c O N dot com. It will give
you everything that you need to know about the event. Yeah,
(39:03):
and if you are listening to this after the fact,
this is a yearly thing and it's raises a lot
of money for the Reformatory, and it's yeah, it's it's
a really great event. And it's like I said, we
love doing it. We love mingling. It's a lot of fun.
You know, you can go upstairs and get scratched apparently,
so that's your thing. If that's I'm really glad I
(39:25):
got to chat with you again, and thank you for
filling everyone in on the haunts and what to expect.
And you know, even if you can't make the event,
please go and visit the Reformatory. It's got really great history,
great tours, and you might just have a paranormal experience
of your own. Thank you so much, Greg. I appreciate
you taking the time. Thank you Amy for having me on,
(39:46):
and I'm looking forward to seeing you and me. Like
many places we visit on Haunted Road, Ohio State Reformatory
started with the best of intentions but ended on a
very tragic note. I don't think there's enough time to
scratch the surface of all the deaths and unfortunate happenings
(40:06):
that took place there. But it's increasingly apparent that the
building isn't done reminding us of its history. Oddly, and
like I mentioned chatting with Greg, it doesn't have a
foreboding feeling when you enter. The history is massively important
and you can tell so by the passion of the
volunteers who run it. So it's definitely worth a visit.
(40:27):
And if you do go, please let them know that
I sent them your way. And also, even though I
say that it's comfortable inside, let me be clear, I
wouldn't like spend the night in there alone or anything,
but like I said, I do highly recommend you visit.
I'm Amy Brunei and this was Haunted Road. Haunted Road
(40:59):
is a production of Heart Radio and Grimm and mild
from Aaron Mankey. The podcast is written and hosted by
Amy Bruney. Executive producers include Aaron Mankey, Alex Williams, and
Matt Frederick. The show is produced by rema Ill Kali
and Trevor Young. Research by Taylor Haggerdorn, Amy Bruney, and
Robin Miniter. For more podcasts from I Heart Radio, visit
(41:22):
the I heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you
get your podcasts.
Welcome to Haunted Road, a production of I Heart Radio
and Grimm and Mild from Aaron Minky Listener. Discretion is advised.
(00:22):
In May of Adam Burry and I were leading groups
of people through an investigation in the solitary confinement wing
of Ohio State Reformatory. Every hour, another group of fifteen
or so nervously excited folks would file into the pitch
black space, and Adam and I would lead them through
a paranormal investigation. During this though, we tried an experiment
(00:46):
we'd never done before before we did anything investigation wise.
We would ask each person to individually walk down the
long corridor of fifteen or so cells, with only the
moonlight coming in a few barred windows to light their way.
In complete silence. We would watch them, one by one
(01:06):
slowly make their way back and forth. Each time it
felt like an eternity. Each time we all held our
breath for them, and each time they would meet Adam
in the far corner and whisper which cell made them
the most uncomfortable walking by it All in all, close
to one people made that walk that night, and all
(01:28):
but two named the exact same cell. Let's visit Ohio
State Reformatory where the hauntings began before it was ever
even built. I'm Amy Brunei, and this is haunted road.
(01:57):
Ohio State Reformatory seemed deston to be haunted. Even the
land it was built on had seen plenty of casualties
immediately prior to the construction of the Reformatory, The field
upon which it would later be built was used as
a training camp for soldiers during the Civil War. At
the outbreak of the Civil War in eighteen sixty one,
(02:18):
many northern areas, like Ohio quickly scrambled to gather and
organize what was left of the various militias that had
at one time existed and to induct them into the
state militaries. As part of this effort, in Ohio, then
Governor William Dennison ordered the creation of several camps across
the state, one of which was named Camp Bartley after
(02:39):
a former governor of Ohio named Mordechai Bartley, who was
from Mansfield and was located just north of the present
day Ohio State Reformatory building. Later, the camp was referred
to in wartime documents as Camp Mansfield. Camp Mansfield was
home base for a number of local regiments, including the
thirty second O V I and fifteen V I in
(03:01):
eighteen sixty one, the hundred second O V I and
I in eighteen sixty two. The camp was occupied by
other Ohio units as well when their own camps were
over full or otherwise unavailable. Many of these regiments, especially
the thirty second, would seem massive casualties in battle on
many occasions, though the grim Reaper would claim the living
(03:24):
before they ever got the chance to step onto a
battlefield to engage the enemy. Especially due to disease, which
killed overwhelmingly more soldiers during the war than injuries sustained
in combat. Camps such as Camp Mordechai Bartley were populated
by young soldiers who had never before been exposed to
a large variety of common contagious diseases, and were plagued
(03:46):
by outbreaks of smallpox, measles, chicken pox, moms, whooping cough, typhoid,
and scurvy. In October of eighteen sixty two, Camp Mansfield
also became home to a decided a different group of
people from the military trainees, political prisoners. All of the
men incarcerated at Camp Mansfield where public officials, politicians, or
(04:09):
newspaper publishers who had defied the US government by encouraging
young men to ignore summons to war service and dodge
the military draft. By eighteen sixty seven, the war had
been concluded for a few years, and it was being
noticed and publicly talked about that in the wake of
the war, the state penitentiary was being increasingly filled with
younger men who were first time offenders, for whom there
(04:32):
was still hope of reforming into respectable members of society,
and a fear was developing that confining such youths in
the same company as hardened prisoners would only solidify criminal
habits in the minds of these young men and make
any such reformation impossible. Officials began discussing the need for
some kind of intermediate penitentiary which would house criminals who
(04:54):
were too old for the juvenile correction center, but whose
crimes were minor enough that they did not warrant being
sent to the Ohio State Penitentiary. The former site of
Camp Bartley Mansfield was floated as a possible location for
the construction of such an intermediate penitentiary. Eventually it was
selected as the site of the forthcoming institution. The buildings
(05:16):
that would come to make up the Reformatory were designed
by Cleveland architect Levi Scofield. While the initial process of
considering the need and planning for the construction of the
Reformatory began in eighteen sixties seven, it wasn't until eighteen
eighty four that legislation in Columbus was finally passed calling
(05:37):
for its construction. It then took two years to convince
the State Board of Managers that Mansfield was the ideal
place for the new institution. With plans in place, the
city of Mansfield raised ten thousand dollars to buy thirty
acres on which the prison would sit. The State of
Ohio bought another hundred fifty acres connected to this land
for twenty thousand dollars. All told, between the and purchases
(06:00):
and the building, when the Ohio State Reformatory was finally completed,
the total cost was just over one point three million dollars.
Construction began in November of eighteen eighty six. The Ohio
State Reformatory is the largest castle like structure in Ohio.
It is one of the five largest in the United States.
(06:22):
It occupies more than two hundred fifty thousand square feet
with its towering stone walls and sprawling footprint. It is
listed in the Guinness Book of World Records as having
the largest freestanding cellblock, which is the East Cellblock and
stands in impressive six stories in all. Evidently, the six
story cellblock was a later edition, having been built in
(06:42):
nineteen o eight. If you're a movie buff you may
have in fact seen many parts of it. The Shawshank
Redemption was filmed there, as have been many other movies,
TV shows and music videos. The building was designed with
beauty and a church like aura. Schofield envisioned two a
fifty thousand square feet of massive stone that would be
(07:03):
a blend of several styles of architecture, Romanesque, Queen Anne
and Victorian Gothic. Construction was finally underway, and with the
first cornerstone being laid, there was much ado about the
entire event. The cornerstone itself was made of smooth gray granite,
but the rest of the building stone was quarried locally
from an area known as the Devil's Punch Bowl. Initially,
(07:26):
the Reformatory was constructed to house eighteen hundred inmates. In
mid September eighteen, the first inmates arrived, despite the fact
that some parts of the prison were not yet complete,
one fifty young men who had until that point been
kept at the State Penitentiary in Columbus. As soon as
these prisoners arrived, they were put to work digging the
(07:47):
building sewer system, which had not yet been completed. The
Ohio State Reformatory was developed along the lines of the
Auburn system, which you may be familiar with from our
episode on the Eastern State Penitentiary. It was also called
the Silent system. One of the primary elements of the
Auburn system was that while prisoners were meant to be
(08:09):
kept in solitary cells at night, during the day they
worked alongside others, although were required to maintain complete silence,
unlike the Pennsylvania system, which largely kept prisoners in isolation
from one another almost the entire time. The idea was
that communication was necessary to maintain one sense of self.
(08:29):
By prohibiting communication, the inmate sense of self would disintegrate,
with the result that they would be much less likely
to cause problems, attempt escapes, etcetera. At one time, there
were one thousand, six hundred twenty six men and boys
who were students at the reformatory, and they were trained
by sixteen teachers, learning subjects such as math, reading, English, economy, history,
(08:54):
and geography. As mentioned, the prisoners learned and practiced various traits,
much of which can tributed directly back to the sustaining
of the prison. In addition to being responsible for much
of the construction of the reformatory itself, inmates also did
farm work, eventually growing and raising most of their own food.
They made clothing, they worked in a modern in house
(09:15):
print shop, and even made furniture. The furniture factory was
opened in nineteen twelve under the supervision of H. O. Hansen,
and produced high quality items that were well known for
their beautiful handiwork and finishes. It was recorded in nineteen
thirty one that eighteen thousand pieces of furniture were sold,
with one hundred fifty inmates employed. At that time. The
(09:37):
prison also had a machine shop, shoe factory, and other
trade facilities on site in which the inmates worked. The
shoe factory made shoes of various types for men, women,
and children. In nineteen thirty three, there were eleven thousand,
seven hundred forty eight pairs of women's and girls shoes made,
and twenty five thousand, three hundred sixty five pair of
(09:59):
men in boys shoes sold. Styles ranged from oxfords to
high heels for women and waterproof men's boots. The grounds
also had an in house fire department and lumber kiln,
chapel and gymnasium, hospital, library, barbershop, power plant, and other facilities.
The hospital was a ninety bed facility that employed a
(10:20):
full staff of doctors, nurses, and other personnel. The hospital
stood three stories high and extended off the east cell
block in a northward direction. On the third floor, there
was a medical ward, private rooms, baths, a linen area,
and a room for highly contagious patients. The reformatory has
its own cemetery located on the grounds. There are over
(10:41):
two hundred headstones that were placed as inmates died of old, age, disease,
or illness. Inmates burried there also include those who died
of natural causes, but also quite a few murder victims
and others who ended their own lives. These are the
graves of folks whose bodies went unclaimed by their families.
Graves in the cemetery are marked with the inmate number
(11:01):
for each grave, but no names. For the first half
century of its operation, the Reformatory kept to its vision
of primarily serving moderate criminals and intending to reform them.
For many years, it was touted as one of the
best institutions of its sort in the United States. Over time, however,
(11:22):
things began to change. By the early nineteen thirties, overcrowding
had become a serious problem at the Reformatory, and it
became progressively worse. Deteriorating conditions peaked in nineteen seventy eight,
when a coalition of churches and civic groups filed a
lawsuit on behalf of the inmates. The Council for Human
Dignity claimed that the prisoners constitutional rights were being violated.
(11:46):
There were two thousand, two hundred inmates boarded in nineteen
seventy eight in a facility that was meant to house
twelve hundred. The lawsuit charged that there were brutalizing and
inhumane conditions in three The lawsuit was resolved by prison
officials promising to make improvements and ultimately to close the
cell blocks by the end of nineteen eighty six. This
(12:08):
deadline was eventually extended. In nineteen eight seven. The building
was listed on the National Register of Historic Places. In
December nineteen ninety, the last staff and inmates moved to
the Mansfield Correctional Institute. All in all and estimated one
hundred fifty five thousand men and boys passed through its gates,
(12:28):
serving time for their crimes committed. As noted, more than
two people died at the reformatory during its ninety four
years and operations. Deaths occurred due to several causes. As
with just about any institution in which a significant number
of people live in close quarters, and especially one prior
to many of the significant medical advances of the last
(12:50):
half of the twentieth century, widespread illness and resultant death
was a constant threat. The most serious of such threats was,
perhaps unsurprisingly, tuberculosis. TB is highly contagious. Like the common cold,
it spreads through the air. When people sneeze, cough, talk,
or spit, they propel t B germs into the air.
(13:12):
A person needs only to inhale a small number of
these to become infected with the dreadful condition. I feel
like we're all very familiar with respiratory diseases. After the
last couple of years, inmates of the Ohio State reformatory
may not have noticed any symptoms of illness until the
disease was quite advanced. Even then, the symptoms loss of weight, fever,
loss of energy, poor appetite, a productive cough, and night
(13:35):
sweats might easily be blamed on another disease. Several inmates
at the reformatory took their own lives. The first, or
at least the first reported happened in mid May nine.
Nineteen year old Marshall Miller tore his bedsheet into strips
and with those hanged himself from the upper bunk of
his cell. In nineteen sixteen, a local newspaper reported brooding
(13:58):
over his incarsory in the Ohio State Reformatory for having
shot his sweetheart following a quarrel. Anthony mcculick, a Hungarian inmate,
attempted suicide shortly before noon by jumping from the top
range of cells in the West cell Block, a distance
of more than sixty feet to the cement floor below.
(14:19):
He landed feet foremost was such force that the ankle
bones were driven through his feet and through his shoes.
There is no chance of his recovery, According to the
attending physicians at the reformatory hospital in May nineteen seventy four,
an inmate at the Reformatory, twenty four year old Harold Sykes,
who had been sentenced in November nineteen seventy three to
(14:41):
ten to twenty five years at the institution for robbery,
killed himself by hanging himself from a towel rack with
a twisted sheet. The most famous of these, however, occurred
on January thirtieth, nineteen sixty. That evening, twenty two year
old James Lockhart, inmate five four six seventy three, who
in habited cell number thirteen and who had been at
(15:02):
the reformatory since October nineteen fifty five for assault with
the intent to kill, told the guards at supper time
but he did not want to go to dinner as such.
While the rest of the inmates headed to the mess hall,
Lockhart remained in his cell. Lockhart doused himself and the
mattress in his cell was some kind of lighter fluid,
and set himself ablaze. Two guards at some point rushed
(15:24):
in to try to put the fire out, and got
badly burned in the process, but Lockhart ran to the
far corner of his cell and put the burning mattress
between him and the cell door blocking anyone from getting
to him. The coroner declared that technically Lockhart died from asphyxiation,
but his body was obviously horribly burned as well. According
to another inmate, and this is really awful, his body
(15:47):
peeled off in chunks as they pulled him along the
catwalk to the infirmary. According to a former guard who
saw the suicide firsthand, the body was unclaimed by his family,
so it was put in a simple wooden box and
buried in the prison cemetery. Clearly, with history like this,
it's no wonder the Reformatory is reported to be very,
(16:08):
very haunted. According to some sources, the paranormal character of
the area upon which the Reformatory would later be built
goes all the way back to the period during its
tenure as a Civil War camp. Supposedly, Camp Bartley had
only been open for business for a couple of months
in the late spring of eighteen sixty one, when a
soldier began complaining of terrifying visits from unearthly spirits. These
(16:31):
visitations left the soldiers so horrified that he was deemed
unfit for duty and sent to an asylum to recover. Also, supposedly.
Other military trainees and officials began noticing around this time
that items would sometimes go missing or be moved without explanation,
and the ammunition tests would fail when performed in a
particular part of the camp. Not long after, it was
(16:53):
common for all based at Camp Mordecai to report hearing
whispers and muffled voices where there should only be silent
In the northeastern corner of the training ground. Recruits even
reported hearing voices that would emanate from the ground, causing
them to question their sanity. Many of the haunting stories, though,
have to do with the reformatory itself. The reformatory sees
(17:15):
over one hundred thousand visitors a year, and reports of
activity are rampant both during daytime tours and evening ghost tours.
Visitors often report rocks being thrown at them being scratched,
loud voices including screams, cell doors slamming shut, footsteps, more
shadow figures than you can imagine, and lots of full
(17:35):
bodied apparitions. It is not uncommon for visitors to see
themselves out, never to return. Many former and current law
enforcement officials are associated with the maintenance of the building
or come to visit for historical reasons, and they seem
to get more of a response than others. But don't
take my word for it. I've got my friend Greg Faketic,
(17:56):
lead paranormal investigator at the Reformatory and retired police officer,
coming up next to tell us all about the most
common paranormal reports at the building and how even you
can visit and experience it for yourself if you're brave enough.
(18:18):
All right, So I am now joined by Greg Faketick,
who is the co founder of try Sea ghost Hunters,
and he is also the lead paranormal investigator at Ohio
State Reformatory, so basically the perfect person to talk to
about this stuff. So Hi Greg, Hi Amy, how are you.
(18:39):
I'm good, I'm good. Thanks for joining us. Now. I've
met Greg over the years because I've been back to
the Reformatory I don't know, at least two or three
times at this point, and I've had some pretty wild
experiences there. Now, where is it that you always stick
me for those investigations? We put you down in solitary
confined it that's right, that's right. I knew I was
(19:02):
somewhere underneath, surrounded by darkness, that's what I remember. Yeah. So, actually,
last time I was there, I did a really interesting experiment.
Adam was stationed with me as well, and so there's
this whole row of cells that go down this very
(19:22):
dark hallway, obviously, and every single group that came in,
we would have each person walk up and down the
cell block by themselves, which alone is actually quite terrifying,
and then we would have them come back and secretly
whisper into Adam's ear which cell was the most uncomfortable
(19:45):
for them when they walked past it. So we did this.
We I think we had four groups of maybe fifteen people,
and I tell you what, but then at the end
we would figure out which cell it was. And the
first group, every single person picked the same cell. And
I don't know if you're familiar with it, but it's
like you go down this kind of corrid or there's
like a almost a doorway kind of in between the
(20:07):
cord or if that makes sense. It was always just
past that doorway that cell on the left, and then
it happened again. Second, third, fourth group. There were maybe
a couple of people who named the very end as
the scariest moment for them, but it was so strange
that every single person felt that same uncomfortable, heavy feeling
(20:28):
going by the exact same cell. And so that was
an interesting experience. So what is with that area? You
know that that's that's funny that you say that, because
my wife Cathy is attracted to that cell. She's been
in that cell doing e VP sessions and she's gotten
some weird stuff. We like using the iPhone voice memo
(20:53):
because you can see the graph, so you can basically
see e vps or whatever is going on. So she
sits in there and she has her recorder going and
all of a sudden, the graph is going crazy when
she's not saying anything. You know that she stops and
she plays it back and she there's a whole bunch
of movement, like there's guys in there with her. It's
(21:16):
really interesting that that she captures that, and it's really
interesting that a lot of people, including the groups that
were with you, were attracted to that cell. Yeah, you know,
I like to do kind of those experiments where there's
no room for confirmation bias or anything like that, Like
we had no knowledge of you guys investigating in that
(21:37):
cell or anything prior. So I just like to tell
investigators to go by your feeling a lot, you know,
because that's just our animal instinct is if there's something
not right, you know, the hair goes up on the
back of your neck and you get that feeling like
you should be extra cautious. And I think we sense
that if there is some sort of energy around. So
(21:57):
I don't know who's in that cell, but I know
I'm directly on the other side. I had another experience
where I was walking back and forth and I was
coming back from something, and there was just a man,
like a full figure of a man, standing in the
middle of the corridor, and I couldn't even tell if
he was real or not. I was like, is that
(22:18):
one of our attendees? Like who is this person? And
so I watched by I had the creepiest feeling, and
I turned around and he's gone. And then again I
heard people saw this shadow figure down there a lot.
So is that something else you've heard in that area? Oh? Yeah,
people see shadow figures, big dark shadow figures down there.
(22:38):
In fact, I've been investigating over thirty years and I've
rarely seen an apparition. But one of the apparitions I
have seen was down in solitary confinement, and that was
just last month. I had a private investigation that night
and I was given the guests a tour and were
(23:00):
walking by those metal cells, those isolation cells, and as
I look into one, I swore there was somebody standing
in there, and it's like one of those things where
I jumped back. I was like, oh wow, you know.
But the guests that was right behind me, she saw
it too and she started crying, so she validated what
(23:22):
I thought I saw. So that it's getting it seems
like it's getting more active. But you know, there have
been a few documented murders down there. Yeah, there's a
lot of energy, oh for sure. For sure outside of
solitary confinement. What do you think is the most active
(23:43):
area in the place. I have two locations, the whole
third floor in the administration portion, which is kind of
weird because it was administration remains weren't really there, but
they're probably wandering around. And the West Attic. I don't
think I've been to either of those. The West Attic
is hands down the most active location there. What happens
(24:07):
up there, oh man, you get we get stuff thrown
at us. You'll hear footsteps, you'll be touched. You'll see
visible balls of light up there. You can see shadow
figures in the doorway, ambient light coming in from the
chapel area. People have been attacked up there. It's just
(24:30):
a really really intense feeling. I've I've had experiences up
there that I can't explain. You know, I've been touched.
But it's really dark up there, and sometimes you can
feel an ice coldness walking around you. And one time,
this is weird because it's already dark and you can't
see your hand in front of your face, but it
(24:53):
just got darker. It was like somebody just put something
over my eyes and like closing my eyes really tight.
And I've never experienced the darker than dark. That was
kind of crazy. A lot of people have a lot
of different experiences up there. We had some police officers
(25:13):
up there in uniform after our Blood prison our Hunted
House attraction, and they actually had stuff being thrown at them.
They actually had marks on their uniforms where they were
being hit. Jeez. I mean, I guess they probably wouldn't
be very popular in there. You no, no, uh, you
know seeing the uniforms. Yeah, But now I'm a retired
(25:36):
police officer, and I've never had a problem up there
or anywhere in the prison where I've been like attacked.
I've been touched, I've had my keys polled, But you know,
I talked with the guys. I showed them respect because
I'm there all the time and I don't want any problems. Yeah,
but you know, I always feel like it's interesting how
(25:58):
I meet a lot of either law enforcement or retired
law enforcement. I meet a lot of them involved in
paranormal investigation and a lot of them involved in places
like the Reformatory, like you know, like even like Missouri
State Penitentiary and stuff. I find that they do really
actively either like to investigate or just also just kind
(26:19):
of historically try to maintain a place like that. Is
that why you got involved with the Reformatory? You know
what it could be. I mean, we've been a police officer,
you know, we like investigating. We like trying to a
piece together facts to solve a crime. So it's almost
the same thing. You know, you're trying to investigate, You're
(26:39):
trying to figure out what's going on here, what's causing this.
So I think they go hand in hand. But there's
something about the building. But The first time I investigated
there was two thousand and four, and the building just
like it just reached out to me and grabbed me.
That first night, I said I want to work here,
(27:00):
and when I retired, I started volunteering at the Reformatory.
There's just something about the building. You know, you're not
the first person to say something like that to me
about these haunted locations. They do kind of take on
a life of their own, and there is something oddly
comforting about them. I don't know how to describe it,
you know, Like I feel that from the Reformatory, and
(27:21):
I don't know too Like I I think I also
really enjoy just kind of the family atmosphere, like you
and your team. You're also devoted to what you do,
and everybody knows each other so well and like always
so helpful, really great with questions, and so that might
be part of it too, But I always feel very
at home there. Strangely enough. Well, that's a good thing.
(27:42):
That's a good thing. The spirits that are there, you know,
they're not all bad. They're not all bad. We've had
some really helpful ones when we get e vps where
they will actually help you m M. But you know,
you get some bad ones up there, but yeah, it's
it's like a family atmosphere, the volunteers, the staff members,
(28:03):
it's like our home. Oh absolutely. And I'd say that
to people a lot when they go in and investigate
a place like that, like, don't make a blanket judgment
as far as who you're talking. I mean, I've said
that on the podcast before. I also tell that when
I'm leading groups in there, I say, hey, you don't
know why someone is here, how they ended up here,
what was going on in their life like that. You
can't make judgments on someone just because they ended up
(28:24):
in a place like this. And I think that's really
helpful in investigating locations like the reformatory has that is
that kind of a philosophy you share as well? Yeah,
because you know what, there were probably a lot of
innocent people that were incarcerated there. So yeah, I mean
(28:45):
you don't know people's back stories or anything, just like
you know the living. I mean, we don't know what
these people are going through or what has happened to
them in their lives. So and I know a lot
of people are judgmental, but unless you know that person
or know what's going on, in their life. You know,
it's you shouldn't be judging. And these guys they're they're
(29:05):
serving their time. They committed crimes and their serving their time.
You know, there they lost their freedom. Yeah. I sometimes
wonder if they remain in places like that as kind
of a self imposed sentence, or if it's kind of
that whole idea that they just they didn't know anything else.
They were there for so long and they're afraid to
(29:26):
move on to whatever happens next. I will say that
the second aghost starts throwing things at me, that I
might get a little nasty. You're not allowed to throw
things right, right, and that's you know. Or when we're
up in the attic, it's like, do not throw things
at us. Yeah, it's boundaries. Yeah, we always tell them that.
In fact, I was up there last night and it's like,
(29:49):
you can throw things, just don't throw things at us.
I mean, if you want to throw a rock or
something down at the end of the attic, that's fine.
Just don't throw anything at us. Yeah, I mean that's fair.
I would say that's fair. Yeah, you're right. Yeah, I
mean I'm treating you guys with respect. And I tell
everybody treat them with respect, especially up here because there
(30:10):
were a lot of a lot of violent inmates up there. Yeah,
I'm gonna have I don't know that I've been up there.
I'm gonna have to go check that area out next
time I have to put you up there. Okay, well
let's see. Well we'll talk about that later. So okay,
So now as far as um people who visit, like,
I know, you run obviously a lot of private investigations
(30:31):
there and in events, and there's also just tours. Do
you ever have people come through who are just have
to leave like they've had like they just have an
experience and they are done. Oh oh yeah, oh yeah
that that that happens. It happens on the private haunts,
that happens on the public houns, even happened like during
the day tours. Yeah, I feel like those would be
(30:53):
the ones more apt to that because I feel like
they're probably taking the tour not really thinking about ghosts,
just really wanting to learn history, and then if something
happens in that instance, they'd probably be more you know,
likely to vacate the premises pretty quickly. Are there any
more memorable instances of that you can think of Well,
I mean, I don't work day tours, so I'm there
(31:16):
at night much I love. I do know of one
incidents where a woman was taken photos. She wasn't investigating.
She was taking photos and she was up on the
third floor in the administration portion and took a couple
of photos. One of the photos freaked her out, um,
(31:36):
and she immediately found a staff member who then took
photos of her camera and sent them to me. I
don't know if she actually left, but it did freak
her out, and she wasn't there investigating. She was est there,
you know, the day tours. Now, speaking of that, have
you heard accounts of paranormal activity happening there while it
(31:59):
was in operation? Yes? Yes. In fact, I was talking
with a former guard last night and he was a
guard there from nine to closed in and oh yeah,
he had experiences there, and he was telling me about
other staff members who had experiences there that they couldn't explain. Yeah,
(32:22):
that's got to be tough too, because you have to,
you know, keep a brave face on, especially in instances
like that. What are the more frequent paranormal encounters people
have when they're there? A lot of the times you
know obviously they're e vps, but it seems that lately
two people have been seeing shadow figures throughout hearing voices,
(32:45):
and those can be really creepy, especially if you're in
a room by yourself and you hear a voice. People
have been hearing growling too, that seems to be increasing.
And there again that's up on the third floor. I
know that when and I think we did an event
their last May. I think yours was maybe one of
my might have been my first event back after the pandemic.
(33:08):
I think it was actually because I remember just being like, wow, people,
you know, and it was just it was this whole
like it was the first time back and so long.
I got emotional a few times because I love meeting
other investigators and fans of the paranormal and it's like
one of my favorite things to do, and to not
be able to do it for almost two years was
very hard. Actually at that point is just a year
(33:29):
and a half, but it was long enough that I
felt it. I think that that too, was one of
the first times people were investigating there again. Do you
think that having this space empty for so long and
not interacting, do you think that affected the haunting in
some way. I think it did, especially in one area there.
(33:50):
Get up in the third floor edmin. We're actually having
people get physically attacked up there. A lot of people
were getting scratched on the back. Gee. I mean I
was up there. I was doing a tour for a
private investigation. And also the guy said, how complaining about
a burning sensation on his back. We lifted up his
shirt and there's these really you know, they almost looked
(34:12):
like bruises on his back. So there was a lot
of attacks up there, and that was like after the pandemic.
In fact, that most of them happened between March and
May last year. Ah yeah, that was right when you
started going back. I feel like they must have been
used to being alone for a while. Yeah. Yeah, And
(34:34):
we couldn't figure it out. And in fact, it's the
same area that that woman captured something weird on her camera,
So there was something going up there. I mean it's
died down now up there, we haven't really had any
tax but of course we haven't had any parent omal events.
It sounds like you need to have people sign waivers.
(34:57):
It's funny because when I when I'm up there of
the tours, I'm like, okay, everybody, you you did sign
your waivers right. Usually I'm afraid people are going to
fall downstairs or something, but that sounds pretty intense. The
whole scratching thing. Yeah, I always hear that that when
people have that experience of being scratched, it doesn't necessarily
(35:20):
feel like your traditional scratch. It often presents as kind
of either a burning sensation or an ice cold sensation.
So yeah, I said, I hear that time and time again.
I don't know how that works. I don't know why.
You know, sometimes people associate the idea of like scratches
with something negative or demonic, but in my experience, it's
(35:42):
many times something either or a person the spirit of
a person just wanting either you to leave, or sometimes
they're just really desperate to get your attention. You know.
It's almost like when you think of someone like, you know,
trying to save themselves or grab onto something, they just
kind of get overly, you know, kind of overshoot the basket,
as they say. So it can mean, you know, a
(36:04):
couple of different things in conjunction with other evidence that
may present itself at the same time. I agree. I mean,
you know what we don't know what it's like on
the other side, and here we are, we got investigators
trying to communicate, right, Maybe that's they're trying to communicate back, Yeah, exactly.
You know, we don't know enough to kind of to
(36:26):
assume how they're going to come across. So it's hard
not to take that automatically as being something negative. But
you know, there's been many times where I've had something
you know, physically interact like push or shove or something,
but then at the same time I'm getting e vps
that say help me or don't leave, or you know,
it's it's this kind of desperate act. I almost feel like,
(36:47):
well that being said, now that I'm sure everyone just
wants to line up and get in there, right, yes,
come on, come on. So I know you do a
really great conference every year, and I think I've been
the last two I believe, maybe even more than I
lose track. But it's lovely how you kind of people
(37:08):
can go into the Reformatory and you know, there's a
lot of vendors and people like me that you can
come up and meet, and then there's lectures all day
and then at night we get to investigate, which is cool.
So can you tell a little bit about that and
how people can get involved. Oh? Sure, we do an event.
This year's event is May twentie through the twenty second.
It's called Parasicon. This year it's called Parisicon three. It
(37:32):
would have been four but got canceled because of the pandemic.
But it is a paranormal and psychic convention that is
held at the House State Reformatory. Each year it gets bigger.
This year we have ninety three vendor tables with over
eighty vendors, and we do have some great celebrities. I
have Amy that will be there, and Adam will be there,
(37:55):
Chip Coffee will be there and a host of other celebrities.
And for our event, it costs nothing to get into
our event. You pay your admission into the House State Reformatory.
You can do yourself guided tours throughout the prison and
you can come, you know, check out the vendors, go
meet the celebrities, listening to the talks. That Saturday night,
(38:18):
May one, we have a celebrity ghost hunt and we
do have tickets available for that. And this year we're
doing something different for Friday night, We're doing a v
I P Meet and greet where a certain amount of
guests can mingle and hang out with the celebrities and
they'll be appetizers there. There will be a bar there,
(38:39):
we'll have a DJ there, so it'll just be a
relaxed feeling prior to the big event. For more information
on the paras Icon, you can go to www dot
paras Icon dot com. That's p A r A P
S Y c O N dot com. It will give
you everything that you need to know about the event. Yeah,
(39:03):
and if you are listening to this after the fact,
this is a yearly thing and it's raises a lot
of money for the Reformatory, and it's yeah, it's it's
a really great event. And it's like I said, we
love doing it. We love mingling. It's a lot of fun.
You know, you can go upstairs and get scratched apparently,
so that's your thing. If that's I'm really glad I
(39:25):
got to chat with you again, and thank you for
filling everyone in on the haunts and what to expect.
And you know, even if you can't make the event,
please go and visit the Reformatory. It's got really great history,
great tours, and you might just have a paranormal experience
of your own. Thank you so much, Greg. I appreciate
you taking the time. Thank you Amy for having me on,
(39:46):
and I'm looking forward to seeing you and me. Like
many places we visit on Haunted Road, Ohio State Reformatory
started with the best of intentions but ended on a
very tragic note. I don't think there's enough time to
scratch the surface of all the deaths and unfortunate happenings
(40:06):
that took place there. But it's increasingly apparent that the
building isn't done reminding us of its history. Oddly, and
like I mentioned chatting with Greg, it doesn't have a
foreboding feeling when you enter. The history is massively important
and you can tell so by the passion of the
volunteers who run it. So it's definitely worth a visit.
(40:27):
And if you do go, please let them know that
I sent them your way. And also, even though I
say that it's comfortable inside, let me be clear, I
wouldn't like spend the night in there alone or anything,
but like I said, I do highly recommend you visit.
I'm Amy Brunei and this was Haunted Road. Haunted Road
(40:59):
is a production of Heart Radio and Grimm and mild
from Aaron Mankey. The podcast is written and hosted by
Amy Bruney. Executive producers include Aaron Mankey, Alex Williams, and
Matt Frederick. The show is produced by rema Ill Kali
and Trevor Young. Research by Taylor Haggerdorn, Amy Bruney, and
Robin Miniter. For more podcasts from I Heart Radio, visit
(41:22):
the I heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you
get your podcasts.
Popular Podcasts
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
24/7 News: The Latest
The latest news in 4 minutes updated every hour, every day.
Therapy Gecko
An unlicensed lizard psychologist travels the universe talking to strangers about absolutely nothing. TO CALL THE GECKO: follow me on https://www.twitch.tv/lyleforever to get a notification for when I am taking calls. I am usually live Mondays, Wednesdays, and Fridays but lately a lot of other times too. I am a gecko.