December 10, 2025 • 39 mins
Hari and Priyanka unpack why some medications may increase your risk of falling, what a new LSD study reveals about anxiety treatment, and the the pros and cons of curling up in bed with your pets.
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
This podcast is for information purposes only and should not
be considered professional medical advice. Oh and a simple question
like that could make the provider just say, you know what,
You're right, let's switch you to something else, and it
couldn't make a difference.
Speaker 2 (00:16):
Let's just clarify that when we say sleep, if you
we mean sleep next to you. I think that is
very crucial if you were listening for the former reason
you were on the wrong podcast. Yes, how come every
drug has to sound like gibberish, Like somebody came up
with gaba pent and.
Speaker 1 (00:35):
Someone was like, yeah, yeah, yeah, that's the name. That's
the name.
Speaker 2 (00:41):
I'm Hurrybolu, I'm doctor preuncle Wally, and this is health stuff. Hey, Prianca,
Well hello there, how are you? I'm okay. It's good
to be able to start an episode saying I'm okay.
There have been other times where I have not felt
(01:02):
great and have said, you know this hurts or that hurts,
and I don't feel that right now, which is good.
Speaker 1 (01:08):
Yeah, you know what, I'm okay too. I think that's
a great starting point for us.
Speaker 2 (01:12):
I'm still standing.
Speaker 1 (01:14):
Yes, okay. So I want to ask you do you
talk to your family like on a regular.
Speaker 2 (01:21):
Basis almost every day.
Speaker 1 (01:22):
Yeah, and are we talking like texting, phone, FaceTime.
Speaker 2 (01:27):
Every day without a doubt there's going to be a text.
Usually I don't initiate, like my mom will always send
me a text first, you know.
Speaker 1 (01:35):
Oh interesting, so she initiates.
Speaker 2 (01:37):
Well, part of it is that she keeps sending me memes,
and she keeps texting me memes, and I'm like, why
are you texting me? She texts me memes? She what's
apps memes? And she also sends it on Facebook messengers.
So I don't know how to tell her that this
is too much and they're all about being healthy, yes,
and so she's like, it's just inundating me with like
(02:00):
you're out of shape, get in shape, eat better food
on all three of the different places I message.
Speaker 1 (02:07):
So she must love the idea of the show.
Speaker 2 (02:11):
I don't even know if she knows the show exists.
Oh no, you haven't told her about I'm told her.
I've told her, but at this point, like unless it
has to do with her grandson, she's not particularly interested.
Speaker 1 (02:23):
Oh so maybe that's why she talks to you, because
you're the root to the grandson.
Speaker 2 (02:27):
That's why my father definitely talks to me. It's a
closer way to get to his grandson. But yeah, I
talk to them almost every day, and you know, phone
calls at least every other day, but definitely every day
there's some communication.
Speaker 1 (02:41):
Yeah, yeah, And I have to say, like, as I've
gotten older, my views on talking to my parents has
really changed, Like as they have been aging. You know,
when when I was younger, I couldn't be bothered. And
I recognize, like, not everyone has that like ability or
privilege to talk to their family. Maybe a loved one
(03:02):
has passed or they don't have a good relationship, and
I totally recognize that. But yeah, it's tricky right when
your parents are aging. I've started adopting this attitude of like, man, like, yeah,
life is short, we don't have much time, Like I
want to talk to you for however long I have,
you know.
Speaker 2 (03:20):
So I remind myself this every time I get one
of those memes. I know at some point I'm going
to miss the memes one day, and I'm going to
miss the like five foods you can eat to avoid
bladder cancer.
Speaker 1 (03:32):
I'm almost certain I've received that same meme about bladder cancer.
Speaker 2 (03:39):
It's always penal it's always something new one.
Speaker 1 (03:43):
You know, my grandfather before he passed away would send
me like emails and emails about like, yeah, the health
importance of avocados and bananas, like ten things you didn't
know about sesame seeds, like you know, it's like and
you know what was interesting about my grandfather. He died
like well into his nineties. The guy was on Instagram,
(04:07):
he was on Facebook, on Twitter, he had an active
like Gmail account. He was using social media literally until
basically he lost his eyesight and then Yeah, it was crazy.
Speaker 2 (04:22):
I'm afraid of it at all. He wanted to jump
into it.
Speaker 1 (04:25):
Oh he was. I think he was trying before his
final days. He was trying to make a TikTok account,
believe it or not.
Speaker 2 (04:33):
What.
Speaker 1 (04:34):
Yeah, so it's I have all these Like after he
passed away, I go to his Twitter and I like
read his tweets, and I in my Gmail I have
and I kid you not, I have hundreds hundreds of
emails from him written about food and spirituality and like
just random stuff. And sometimes when I miss him, I
(04:56):
just pull up those those emails.
Speaker 2 (04:58):
That's wonderful that you have.
Speaker 1 (05:00):
Yeah, yeah, I feel really really lucky about that so
he lives in my Gmail account.
Speaker 2 (05:06):
Now I'm glad we're talking about the stuff. So I
recently read a New York Times op ed called why
are more older people Dying after falls? And it focuses
on how as a result of prescription medication, the author
believes that that's leading to more older people falling than
(05:27):
the falls potentially lead to death.
Speaker 1 (05:29):
You're specifically referring to an epidemiologist named doctor Thomas Farley.
He also was involved in a viewpoint piece in Jamma
called the Risky Prescribing in the Epidemic of Death from Falls,
and he has a very interesting viewpoint which which I
personally agree with, that the rising use of certain medications
(05:53):
is a major factor behind this increase in falls.
Speaker 2 (05:57):
I mean, I think about this. I'm glad I got
to read this article. It was a little terrifying because
having parents that are getting older, you know, they live
in a house with multiple staircases. They both are on
tons of medication. Like this article spoke to me. It
was terrifying to read.
Speaker 1 (06:13):
Yeah, I mean I get it, Like, you know falls
it can cause hip fractures, but we are not talking
about head injuries, brain bleeds. Like even if someone survives
a fall, they might still lose their independence or their mobility.
So we're talking about potential for like life changing events here, right, right.
Speaker 2 (06:34):
And so this doctor argues that this huge increase is
the result of medications. Is that because these various medications
that he lays out make you dizzy or affect your
mental capability? Like, what is it about these medications and
what are the medications?
Speaker 1 (06:52):
Yeah, so that's a really good question. So a lot
of these medications act on the central nervous system, so
they actually crawl us the blood brain barrier, and so
why why does that matter? Because then when you take them,
you're gonna get dizzy, you're gonna feel loopy, and that's
the major side effect. That's exactly what you don't want
(07:14):
if you're trying not to fall. The effect on the
central nervous system is what actually predisposes. So like someone trips,
if they're of sound mind, they don't fall. But if
you're already dizzy and you're being over medicated, now it's
going to lead to an adverse outcome.
Speaker 2 (07:29):
So the medications are like benzos opioids.
Speaker 1 (07:34):
Yes, So he names a couple of different medications which
you know are really common actually, so benzodiazepines. So these
are like your valium at Evans. They're actually very commonly prescribed,
like in operations.
Speaker 2 (07:52):
You know, the fun ones. Yeah, actually to make you happy.
Speaker 1 (08:00):
Actually it's funny because yeah, I had to have a
medical operation last year and they gave me ivy valium,
and I mean, I'm not gonna lie.
Speaker 2 (08:10):
I was like.
Speaker 1 (08:10):
WHOA, Like this is amazing, and I think I might
have even said that out loud to the staff. Lots
of people have been prescribed out of an valium for
like generalized anxiety, panic, you know, trouble sleeping. That's one list.
Then then they're they're it's the opioid family, right, So
that's like you're victin your oxy, your fentanyl, but that's
(08:34):
your like chronic pain, right, and that think about that.
If you're old, you have arthritis, you're in pain, some
of those meds might be prescribed, right, that's one category.
Then we have your antidepressants, but specifically one category of
antidepressants called tricyclic antidepressants or TCAs. They're kind of an
(08:58):
older type of anti depressant. They're not like a first
line sort of treatment now, but they're very commonly prescribed
for depression, anxiety, or like neuropathy, nerve pain. Speaking of neuropathy,
another met on the list that's really commonly prescribed is gabapentin,
which is used for like nerve issues chronic pain. The
(09:18):
bottom line is, like all of these act on the
central nervous system.
Speaker 2 (09:24):
Man side note, how come every drug has to sound
like gibberish, Like somebody came up with gabapentin and.
Speaker 1 (09:33):
Someone was like, yeah, yeah, yeah, that's the name. That's
the name, that's the right thing. There's like a society
of drug naming people. You know, why are we giving
so many meds to elderly people?
Speaker 2 (09:46):
You know?
Speaker 1 (09:47):
A lot of this has to do with how our
healthcare system, in my opinion, is currently designed. Right, Like
you have short visits, you don't have a lot of
time with a person. It's easier to prescribe a med
than to really take the time to get to know
how does this person live, what is important to them,
(10:08):
and get to the root cause of things. So, you know,
I do think having health care for profit is part
of the reason we are in this situation.
Speaker 2 (10:18):
Like people are being overprescribed.
Speaker 1 (10:20):
I do think that is definitely an issue Yeah, it
goes back to this point that you know, in our
US healthcare system, which is a for profit system, it
is just a lot easier if you don't have a
lot of time with a patient to prescribe a medication
than to take the time to really get to understand
(10:41):
the person, what makes them tick, how do they live
their life, to really get to the root cause of
why they're experiencing what they're experiencing.
Speaker 2 (10:49):
Right, that's the same time I think, you know, especially
I understand especially for younger patients, but with older patients
it's trickier, right, because it's like their quality of life
potentially decreases without the vicodin, without the value, without the
things that soothe the pain. So it becomes, it seems
like it becomes a harder decision. So this is.
Speaker 1 (11:07):
Why it's so important to have a very nuanced discussion
between the healthcare provider and the patient because every case
is different. Like you're bringing up a really good point,
like if someone has crippling arthritis and they're in pain,
like that pain medication might be the difference between quality
of life for them, and so to say point blank
(11:28):
like oh, well take it all away, because it's a
danger to a risk of falls. It's not so black
and white, right, Yeah.
Speaker 2 (11:36):
So the drugs that are described in the op ED
is potentially leading to falls? Like why do elderly people
use those specific drugs?
Speaker 1 (11:43):
Yeah? So, I mean Benzo's for anxiety sleep, right, Like
you need to be able to sleep as you age,
opioids for severe chronic pain, tricyclic antidepressants for depression sleep,
nerve pain, gab apendan for nerve pain. Sometimes even seizures
like these are very helpful, even life changing. But it's
(12:05):
the side effects like sedation and balance that make it
risky for older people.
Speaker 2 (12:12):
So what does the doctor argue is the reason for
the spike? Is it because we're overprescribing? Is that the
direct correlation?
Speaker 1 (12:19):
Yeah, So he talks about over prescribing, and what he
also talks about is de prescribing, which is essentially a
way of cutting back on these medications that increase falls.
So there was an article published in BMC Geriatrics that
concluded that cutting back on unnecessary friids what does that
(12:44):
stand for? Fall risk inducing drugs frids could be a
very simple way to reduce fall rates and help seniors
not only stay safe, but also be independent and active.
Speaker 2 (12:58):
But I imagine, like it's these like fall reducing dress
especially the ones that are alleviating pain, it would be
difficult to give them up if you were an elderly
person like my mom. I forgot the name of the medication,
but she took it for her arthritis and it was
recalled years ago for potentially leading to heart attacks, and
(13:19):
she refused to stop using it for months because you're like,
this is the only thing that makes my pain stop,
and even though there's this other risk of this other
health thing, and that's why these pills were recalled, it's
effective for the pain of walking around each day. So
I can imagine that is a difficult choice, especially for
an elderly person to have to make that call.
Speaker 1 (13:40):
Yeah, exactly. I mean you're hitting the point. That's exactly
why deep prescribing has to be done super carefully with
the help of a healthcare professional, because it's about finding
that balance between the benefit and the risk. But I
just want to point out there is a US prescribing
(14:01):
research network. It's co directed at UCSF by doctor Michael Steinman,
and his research has pointed out that these drugs increase
fall risk by fifty to seventy five percent in older patients.
So it really is about looking at the risks and
the benefits and having a very personalized conversation.
Speaker 2 (14:24):
Now, the counter argument that is proposed is that it's
because how falls were classified, let's say the seventies and
eighties and nineties, and how they're classified now makes it
look like there's an increase. Is that right?
Speaker 1 (14:41):
Yeah, So I think that's a really important point. For example,
if someone fell and then had a brain bleed, they
say that on the death certific they'll say cause of
death brain bleed, but they won't specify like secondary to
fall due to over medication, right, So, like the devil's
(15:03):
in the details, right. Obviously, when it comes to studying
things on such a large scale, the more accurate the
data set that we have, the better we can make
those conclusions.
Speaker 2 (15:14):
I mean, is there anything we can do about this?
Speaker 1 (15:16):
Actually? I do want to say this sort of like
PSA for people listening out there, maybe you're over sixty
five or you're caring for someone who's over the age
of sixty five, there's something called the Beer's criteria beers
as in like surveisa beers. It's actually a list put
out by the American Geriatric Society, and it highlights medications
(15:40):
that older adults should either avoid or use with caution,
and specifically, the twenty twenty five update warns about drugs
that increase fall risk. So if you're taking care of
someone over the age of sixty five, you can actually
ask the physician, Hey, does this medication that you're prescribing
is this on the Beer's list, And if it is,
(16:03):
is there a safer alternative? And a simple question like
that could make the provider just say, you know what,
you're right, let's switch you to something else. And it
couldn't make a difference.
Speaker 2 (16:15):
More after this.
Speaker 1 (16:16):
Break, very excited about today's topic because it takes us
back to the nineteen sixties. We're talking about not counterculture,
but cutting edge medicine LSD. In twenty twenty five, there
was a new clinical trial published in the Journal of
(16:37):
American Medical Association JAMMA, kind of a big deal, and
they looked at whether one single dose of LSD, but
not actually, if I want to get technical, it was
actually a synthetic version of LSD, so it's an LSD
derived drug. They actually called it MM one twenty, which
(16:58):
doesn't sound as cool LSD. They looked at whether a
single dose of this m M one twenty could help
treat generalized anxiety disorder, and the results were interesting.
Speaker 2 (17:11):
Or the results I got all the results. You can
just leave it there.
Speaker 1 (17:17):
So the results show that it could help. It could
be very helpful. After just one treatment, a person who
suffers from generalized anxiety disorder had like sustained relief.
Speaker 2 (17:33):
I mean it's interesting for me as somebody who's not
tried anything. I've never smoked weed, I've obviously never done LSD,
like anxiety, but I have a great deal of anxiety.
Whether it's generalized anxiety we got to figure out. But
like there's something about that that gives me more anxiety.
To be honest, the idea of like using LSD, because
(17:54):
when I think of LSD, I think of like bad
trips and you know it having life long effects. Am
I overthinking this? How safe is this?
Speaker 1 (18:04):
I would say, So that's a really good question I
want to be clear about. Like the way it was
used in the study. It was like a medically monitored thing.
They control the set and setting very carefully, so the
study itself was done in a safe way. I can't
speak for what happens recreationally or anything like that. But
I can definitely say that the study had a very
(18:24):
controlled environment.
Speaker 2 (18:26):
How does LSB work, Like, what does it do?
Speaker 1 (18:30):
Right? So, chemically it works on your serotonin receptors in
your brain, which we know famously is associated with mood,
but it also works on your dopamine receptors and your
epinephrin or nor epinephrine receptor, so the receptors that kind
of get your energy up, and it activates these receptors.
(18:51):
And what happens is when you take it, you notice
there's a change in your mood, there's a change in
your perception, your thought patterns are different. If you do
experience any kind of hallucinations, visuals, altered sensory experience, that's
mostly coming from the serotonin activity. So I think it's
(19:15):
interesting because this study looked at generalized anxiety disorder, which
by definition is when you have anxiety or like worry
or nervousness about everyday events without like a specific trigger,
which to me, I'm like, who doesn't have anxciting right
now about everyday events?
Speaker 2 (19:35):
Yeah, it seems like this it should fit everybody. I think,
are you not reading the news? Do you not know
what's going on.
Speaker 1 (19:43):
Look, I'll be honest. Sometimes I actually have to like
delete news apps from my phone for a couple of
days when I notice, like, Okay, this is just like
too much. It's getting to me.
Speaker 2 (19:55):
I mean as of the week of this recording I'm recording. Wait, wait,
don't tell me in a couple of days. Oh I
love that. Yeah. So it's crazy because it's like that's
the week I have to read most about the news,
and I can feel my anxiety like increasing the week
I have to do the show, just because I'm going
through all this news. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (20:13):
Yeah, I mean, do you get like workers calm for
that or something.
Speaker 2 (20:16):
I will argue that. I will make that argument.
Speaker 1 (20:21):
And I want to be really clear about generalized anxiety
as opposed to normal anxiety. Like normal anxiety is like
sort of this very temperate, usually appropriate response, like you've
had a stressful day, like some challenges occurring, like you're
experiencing anxiety. We're not talking about that. Generalized anxiety is
a chronic anxiety. We're talking about excessive anxiety and worry.
(20:44):
And this is based off of the DSM, which is
sort of like the diagnostic criteria excessive anxiety or worry
occurring more days than not for at least six months,
so a long time about a number of events or
activities like work or school performance, and the person finds
it difficult to control the worry, and there's all these
(21:04):
other associated symptoms. You're restless, you're tired, you can't concentrate,
your irritable, your muscles are tense. It's a very debilitating condition.
And we're talking separate from people that are having panic
attacks or social anxiety or OCD. It's separate, Like all
of that's been ruled out, and ten percent of Americans
(21:27):
have been diagnosed with generalized anxiety disorder. So we're talking
it's interfering with your day to day activities. These are
symptoms that are difficult to control, so like really impacting
quality of life. Do you want to hear about the
actual details of the study, Like so, because I thought
it was a really well done study. First of all,
(21:48):
it was a double blind, placebo controlled trial, so let's
not forget that's sort of like the gold standard when
it comes to clinical research. They looked at almost two
hundred people from twenty two different locations across the United States,
so like really a broad representation of our country, and
(22:09):
people were randomly assigned to get one time dose of
the MM one twenty LSD synthetic version at either twenty
five micrograms fifty hundred, two hundred or a placebo the ones.
Speaker 2 (22:24):
Then you know who's faking it.
Speaker 1 (22:26):
Yeah, It's like in those types of trials, is like
very easy to tell who got the placebo, right, because
they're just like I'm sitting here, and they followed these
people for twelve weeks and then they just measure their
anxiety using like a traditional research based anxiety scale.
Speaker 2 (22:44):
What are the differences between the doses, Like what would happen?
What did they find would happen based on the dose?
Speaker 1 (22:49):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, So they used increments of twenty five
so twenty five micrograms, fifty one hundred and two hundred micrograms,
So like twenty five micrograms of LSD is basically like
a microdose. You know, you'll barely notice something like maybe
a few shifts in your perceptions, Like fifty micrograms were
(23:10):
talking a few light psychedelic effects, like maybe some visual shimmer,
some mood changes. One hundred micrograms is sort of like
considered a classic dose to what like recreational users would use,
and then two hundred micrograms is like a strong heavy dose.
And the reason I'm harping on the doses is because
(23:30):
it affected the results. Like they found that one hundred
micrograms is what actually led to these huge reductions in
anxiety for at least three months.
Speaker 2 (23:42):
The idea is that these doses would be administered with
somebody watching them, or would it be something they would
take at home, Like how would it like they're not
expecting the people to take this at home by themselves?
Speaker 1 (23:55):
No, no, no, no, no. It wasn't very like tightly
they had monitor but I want to be clear, like
the monitors weren't allowed to do therapy. There was no
like formal therapy allowed. So they were just there to
make sure people were comfortable, safe, Like they gave them
eye shades, they walked them through the bathroom, they played music,
but they weren't doing therapy or interpreting anything, right, because
(24:20):
the study authors wanted to see if just the MM
one twenty alone without any talk therapy reduced anxiety.
Speaker 2 (24:28):
What's the deal with the music?
Speaker 1 (24:29):
Yeah, so music we know in psychedelic therapy. And I'm
leaning on my experience working in psychedelic research trials, music
can make the difference of the entire experience, like it
guides the experience. I'm sure you like psychedelics aside, when
you listen to music, do you get really moved?
Speaker 2 (24:50):
Yeah, I get depressed. I listened to sech Okay, so
that's a listening I'm still listening to the Smiths and
enjoy division. Yeah, I get I get moved to se.
Speaker 1 (25:00):
Is So I mean, like that's one example of the
power of music, right, So it can literally make a
difference about like your mindset, how you're going to feel.
One limitation in this study is like they don't spell
out clearly what music was exactly played or how the
environment was structured. But music definitely matters in like creating
(25:23):
the set and setting because it can impact hugely how
the psychedelics are experienced.
Speaker 2 (25:29):
Now you've worked like with ketamine, so that's like, yeah,
that's your expertise, and then the people have also done
stuff with MDMA, yeah, and with psilocybin. Like how does
this vary? How come each one is different? Yeah?
Speaker 1 (25:43):
Yeah, So, I mean they all work differently on the brain,
and it kind of depends on the issue that you're
trying to work with, Like this study was looking at
generalized anxiety. Ketamine is very helpful for depression that's not
responding to medications. There's been studies looking at ssilocybin, which
(26:05):
acts on the serotonin receptors for depression, but also like
end of life anxiety, which I think is very different
than generalized anxiety. And then you know, the research for
MDMA with PTSD is very strong. So it kind of
depends on sort of like what is the issue that
you're trying to tackle, and then sort of figuring out like, well,
(26:27):
what is the treatment that works best for that said issue.
You know, it's like in medicine, right with other issues,
like you have a heart condition, so you would be
given a heart medicine something like that.
Speaker 2 (26:42):
LSD is not legal yet, right.
Speaker 1 (26:44):
Correct, It's a Schedule one substance. It's a controlled substance,
so it's completely not legal. You can only use it
in research settings.
Speaker 2 (26:55):
But psilocybin is legal now.
Speaker 1 (26:57):
No, not all of these. Ketamine is the only sort
of legal controlled substance. Psilocybin is still a Schedule one substance, Okay,
in the United States. I should clarify.
Speaker 2 (27:11):
I want to get to an aha moment right now?
Speaker 1 (27:13):
Okay, oh yeah, okay, let's do it.
Speaker 2 (27:15):
What role do drug companies have in this study?
Speaker 1 (27:19):
Like who paid for the study?
Speaker 2 (27:21):
Right?
Speaker 1 (27:21):
Yeah, yeah, big surprise. The company that develops the m
M one twenty huh. They sponsored and funded the trial.
So the name of the company is called mind Meed,
which is a very funny name. And it's important to know,
like several of the authors of this study they actually
(27:42):
worked for mind meeds. Some of them have stock options,
which you know, I think is important to name, right, Like,
they have a financial incentive if this.
Speaker 2 (27:51):
Really succeeds skin in the game.
Speaker 1 (27:52):
They have skin in the game. Yeah, exactly. So I
think this is a very promising study. But you know,
we also want to name the financial ties and I
would love to see if this could be replicated in
other studies with people who don't have financial ties to
the organization stock options, who don't have stock options. Yeah,
I think we need to do a stock option free trial.
(28:15):
I just want to say, I think this study is
really interesting for me. You know, it would be really
cool if in a couple of years or whenever this
eventually goes through, to be able to offer this as
a treatment for patients personally with GAD. I love the
idea of potentially being able to offer that, So you know,
(28:36):
I'm going to definitely be interested in how this research
continues and you know, making sure that the trials are
like really good and vetted, and you know, I think
it'll be really exciting in the future potentially.
Speaker 2 (28:49):
I also think it's interesting because like, all these Class
eight drugs are definitely like stigmatized, right sometimes for good reason,
but like they the idea that these drugs to stigmatize
actually having value still potentially like being used to help people,
I think is incredibly important because why are we not
(29:09):
using all our resources?
Speaker 1 (29:11):
Right right? It does make you think, right, well, are
they really as terrible as our government policies say they are.
We'll be back with more health stuff after this break.
So yeah, I actually am very excited to talk about
(29:31):
this last segment because I think it's a question that
can divide a lot of households. Potentially, should you let
your pet sleep with you?
Speaker 2 (29:42):
Let's just clarify that when we say sleep with you,
we mean sleep next to you. I think that is
very crucial if you are listening for the former reason
you were on the wrong podcast.
Speaker 1 (29:53):
Yes. The Mayo's Clinic Center for Sleep Medicine survey says
that more than half of people say they let their
pets into the bedroom at night, and more than a
third of kids share the bed with their pets. So
you know a lot of people are doing this. Now,
I had a pet was no longer with us, rest
(30:15):
in peace. Yeah, and we never I never slept with
my pets, slept next.
Speaker 2 (30:23):
To my pasts.
Speaker 1 (30:24):
You know. He would sometimes maybe sleep in the same room,
but definitely not in the bed with me.
Speaker 2 (30:32):
Oh, our family, like the plan wasn't for our dog
to sleep in the beds with us, but like it
just happened, and we allowed it to happen because she
was so cuddly and you tend to forget that this
is an animal. Yeah, so you can just but you know,
they they treated her like like like their animal daughter
(30:54):
and so yeah, so like they were they were My
folks were totally cool with having the dog sleep in
the bed. But the dog was smart. She would sleep
in the bed till like two in the morning, and
when she knew they were out, she would go into
the guest room where nobody was sleeping and have the
whole bed to herself. So she and then before like
(31:15):
the morning, she would sneak back into the other room
and like pretend nothing happened. It was. It was hilarious.
But like smart dog, very smart dog. I mean I
think that there's some's it's wild because these are former wolves,
Like these are creatures that like should not be sharing
space in this room. We've domesticated them to such a
(31:37):
degree where we can even have them in the bed.
But obviously, like they're animals and they're filthy, and like
at least like I have a child, but my child
at least knows how to wash their hands and take
a bath at this point, like with a with a dog,
you don't get that. So like in terms of hygiene alone,
it seems like, oh boy.
Speaker 1 (31:56):
I forget that dogs are wolves that I just like
figured out how to hack the system.
Speaker 2 (32:01):
You know, is that what the is are they just
sell out? Wolves sell.
Speaker 1 (32:06):
I just imagine the society of dogs are like standing
in a corner smoking a cigarette and they're just like,
we got these humans, so figure it out. Yeah, So
interesting studies that have actually been published on that that
I'm really excited to share because Mayo Clinic Proceedings in
twenty fifteen published a study called are Pets in the
(32:26):
Bedroom a Problem? And they studied whether pets could disrupt
the sleep environment, So we're talking like moving around, barking,
or just like are they making the room hotter? And
then later in twenty twenty two, a Dutch study published
in the journal Pathogens looked at the health risks of
(32:47):
having pets in your bed, and they studied a couple
dozen dogs and cats, and they found that a majority
of them, like eighty percent of the dogs and cats
had and tarol back to which is a kind of
bacteria that includes ecoli. So they were loaded with a
lot of ecoli.
Speaker 2 (33:06):
So we can catch their stuff.
Speaker 1 (33:08):
I mean they carry this, right, So if the hygiene
isn't great and they're going in the bed, As a doctor,
I'm thinking, okay, immunocompromise people, elderly people, pregnant people, maybe kids,
like they're probably the highest risk, right, Like I would
just be a little careful.
Speaker 2 (33:28):
Wait, so they carry ecoli.
Speaker 1 (33:30):
It's part of the group that includes ecoli. They don't
they can have ecoli as well as a whole other
group of enteroback.
Speaker 2 (33:37):
But we can get their stuff. Yeah, you can.
Speaker 1 (33:40):
Definitely, you can definitely get that's called actually a zoonotic
risk when it goes from animal to human and it's
mostly on dogs footpads, So you know you're really smart.
You wash your son's hands, you keep the hands clean.
You got to do that with the dogs too.
Speaker 2 (33:55):
God, that's so wild, man, just I mean, but the
study shows that they helped with sleep or that they
don't help with all.
Speaker 1 (34:03):
Oh yeah, So back to the original study. Thanks for that.
The original study that I want to bring back was
from twenty seventeen. Again, Mayo Clinic published a lot of
studies about this. The title was the Effect of Dogs
on Human Sleep in the Home Sleep Environment, And they
took forty healthy adults, mostly women, and their dogs and
(34:23):
for seven nights they wore risk monitors to track their
sleep and the dogs were coller monitors. And they basically
compared dogs sleeping in the room versus dogs sleeping in
the bed and bottom line is having your dog in
the bedroom doesn't affect sleep quality. People still slept well,
(34:44):
had a good sleep efficiency, but when the dogs are
in your bed, sleep efficiency drops just by a little
not a huge difference, like three percent, but it was
a significant difference.
Speaker 2 (34:56):
So what's the point of the animal being in the
room not being on the bed. At that point, it
doesn't really matter where the animal is. Right when you're asleep,
are you sensing your animal? Like? What is that?
Speaker 1 (35:08):
I'm a sensitive sleeper, so like if if someone moves
or it gets too hot, I cannot sleep. The room
has to be sixty eight degrees or lower otherwise it's
just not gonna happen. So for me, like, look, I
love dogs, cuddly, fuzzy, sweet, all the things, but like
(35:30):
if you're next to me, like the big fur ball, like,
I don't think I could do it.
Speaker 2 (35:36):
I mean, I snore, So I feel bad for any
pet that would share a benefit. It's like I feel
like I'm affecting their sleep if anything.
Speaker 1 (35:44):
Oh man, that reminds me of the time. You know,
when my grandparents were alive. They snored like it was
nobody's business. And every time our dog would sleep in
their room, I swear to God, the next day the
dog would come out. He would have like bags under
his eyes. He didn't sleep all nights, like he worked
the night shift or something. It was hilarious.
Speaker 2 (36:03):
Well, let's weigh this out Let's weigh out clearly the
pros and the cons.
Speaker 1 (36:07):
Okay, since you actually have experience sleeping next to your pet,
you say.
Speaker 2 (36:13):
The pros comfort companion that's sure, yes, right, security that
I feel like there's a stress relief factor there. Sure,
I have to say some of the stuff I suppose
a teddy bear could do comfort companionship, some sense of security.
Speaker 1 (36:33):
It is also a form of if the dog is
just breathing, like the rhythmic expansion and contraction of the
ribcage could be very soothing, I suppose, almost like a
white noise perhaps. Yeah. See the cons like if the
dog has any kind of respiratant like snoring issues that noise,
(36:55):
or if they're like, you know, making any kind of noise,
or oh, someone is doing some outside of the house,
the barking starts. Oh no, I cannot, I can't, I can't.
And then the movement, like if they're moving around like
all the time. And for me though, it's the heat,
I can't. I can't handle the heat. And then you know,
as I outline some of the health risks, I don't know,
(37:16):
like the e coli thing that that really stresses me out.
Speaker 2 (37:19):
You know, man, I don't have a dog. It's it's
a bummer because like sleeping next to a dog and
cuddling with the dog is really sweet, it really like,
it's just it makes life a little more livable. And
we're saying to people, no, you're gonna get e cola
if you do that.
Speaker 1 (37:38):
No, no, listen. I am four dogs in the room
based off of this the Mayo Clinic data. Like I'm like, yeah,
keep your dog in the room, but just know if
you're gonna sleep in the bed. I just think there's
you need to know all the risks. But for some
people it's fine. So like definitely no judgment here.
Speaker 2 (37:58):
Whatever people are and people sleep next to other people
in beds.
Speaker 1 (38:02):
Yeah, that's true.
Speaker 2 (38:03):
That's true. Like how often are people passing on germs
to other people? Probably more than animals are.
Speaker 1 (38:11):
Yeah, I mean it depends on the partner, right, Like
I say, just go all in, sleep next to your animal,
except if it's a cat. You're not a cat person.
Speaker 2 (38:23):
I don't trust them.
Speaker 1 (38:25):
Oh that's fair.
Speaker 2 (38:26):
I don't know.
Speaker 1 (38:26):
They're still cuddly, it's just smaller, but they need to
be like friendly.
Speaker 2 (38:30):
I feel like I have cuddled enough cats where it
seems great and all of a sudden, they just turn
and scratch, and it's like, what, yeah, after what we've
been through for the last half an hour, Yeah, yeah,
that's fair, We've lost our cat. Demographic. Health Stuff is
(38:52):
a production of iHeart Podcasts. The show is hosted by
me Harrikin Debolu and doctor Preanco Wally. Producers are Rebecca Eisenberg,
Jenna Cagel, Christina Loringer, Maya Howard, and Katrina Norville. Our
researcher is Maria Tremarki and our intern is Katiya Zobildea Ayala.
To send us a question, you can email us at
voicemail at health Stuff podcast at gmail dot com. Thank
(39:16):
you for listening.
This podcast is for information purposes only and should not
be considered professional medical advice. Oh and a simple question
like that could make the provider just say, you know what,
You're right, let's switch you to something else, and it
couldn't make a difference.
Speaker 2 (00:16):
Let's just clarify that when we say sleep, if you
we mean sleep next to you. I think that is
very crucial if you were listening for the former reason
you were on the wrong podcast. Yes, how come every
drug has to sound like gibberish, Like somebody came up
with gaba pent and.
Speaker 1 (00:35):
Someone was like, yeah, yeah, yeah, that's the name. That's
the name.
Speaker 2 (00:41):
I'm Hurrybolu, I'm doctor preuncle Wally, and this is health stuff. Hey, Prianca,
Well hello there, how are you? I'm okay. It's good
to be able to start an episode saying I'm okay.
There have been other times where I have not felt
(01:02):
great and have said, you know this hurts or that hurts,
and I don't feel that right now, which is good.
Speaker 1 (01:08):
Yeah, you know what, I'm okay too. I think that's
a great starting point for us.
Speaker 2 (01:12):
I'm still standing.
Speaker 1 (01:14):
Yes, okay. So I want to ask you do you
talk to your family like on a regular.
Speaker 2 (01:21):
Basis almost every day.
Speaker 1 (01:22):
Yeah, and are we talking like texting, phone, FaceTime.
Speaker 2 (01:27):
Every day without a doubt there's going to be a text.
Usually I don't initiate, like my mom will always send
me a text first, you know.
Speaker 1 (01:35):
Oh interesting, so she initiates.
Speaker 2 (01:37):
Well, part of it is that she keeps sending me memes,
and she keeps texting me memes, and I'm like, why
are you texting me? She texts me memes? She what's
apps memes? And she also sends it on Facebook messengers.
So I don't know how to tell her that this
is too much and they're all about being healthy, yes,
and so she's like, it's just inundating me with like
(02:00):
you're out of shape, get in shape, eat better food
on all three of the different places I message.
Speaker 1 (02:07):
So she must love the idea of the show.
Speaker 2 (02:11):
I don't even know if she knows the show exists.
Oh no, you haven't told her about I'm told her.
I've told her, but at this point, like unless it
has to do with her grandson, she's not particularly interested.
Speaker 1 (02:23):
Oh so maybe that's why she talks to you, because
you're the root to the grandson.
Speaker 2 (02:27):
That's why my father definitely talks to me. It's a
closer way to get to his grandson. But yeah, I
talk to them almost every day, and you know, phone
calls at least every other day, but definitely every day
there's some communication.
Speaker 1 (02:41):
Yeah, yeah, And I have to say, like, as I've
gotten older, my views on talking to my parents has
really changed, Like as they have been aging. You know,
when when I was younger, I couldn't be bothered. And
I recognize, like, not everyone has that like ability or
privilege to talk to their family. Maybe a loved one
(03:02):
has passed or they don't have a good relationship, and
I totally recognize that. But yeah, it's tricky right when
your parents are aging. I've started adopting this attitude of like, man, like, yeah,
life is short, we don't have much time, Like I
want to talk to you for however long I have,
you know.
Speaker 2 (03:20):
So I remind myself this every time I get one
of those memes. I know at some point I'm going
to miss the memes one day, and I'm going to
miss the like five foods you can eat to avoid
bladder cancer.
Speaker 1 (03:32):
I'm almost certain I've received that same meme about bladder cancer.
Speaker 2 (03:39):
It's always penal it's always something new one.
Speaker 1 (03:43):
You know, my grandfather before he passed away would send
me like emails and emails about like, yeah, the health
importance of avocados and bananas, like ten things you didn't
know about sesame seeds, like you know, it's like and
you know what was interesting about my grandfather. He died
like well into his nineties. The guy was on Instagram,
(04:07):
he was on Facebook, on Twitter, he had an active
like Gmail account. He was using social media literally until
basically he lost his eyesight and then Yeah, it was crazy.
Speaker 2 (04:22):
I'm afraid of it at all. He wanted to jump
into it.
Speaker 1 (04:25):
Oh he was. I think he was trying before his
final days. He was trying to make a TikTok account,
believe it or not.
Speaker 2 (04:33):
What.
Speaker 1 (04:34):
Yeah, so it's I have all these Like after he
passed away, I go to his Twitter and I like
read his tweets, and I in my Gmail I have
and I kid you not, I have hundreds hundreds of
emails from him written about food and spirituality and like
just random stuff. And sometimes when I miss him, I
(04:56):
just pull up those those emails.
Speaker 2 (04:58):
That's wonderful that you have.
Speaker 1 (05:00):
Yeah, yeah, I feel really really lucky about that so
he lives in my Gmail account.
Speaker 2 (05:06):
Now I'm glad we're talking about the stuff. So I
recently read a New York Times op ed called why
are more older people Dying after falls? And it focuses
on how as a result of prescription medication, the author
believes that that's leading to more older people falling than
(05:27):
the falls potentially lead to death.
Speaker 1 (05:29):
You're specifically referring to an epidemiologist named doctor Thomas Farley.
He also was involved in a viewpoint piece in Jamma
called the Risky Prescribing in the Epidemic of Death from Falls,
and he has a very interesting viewpoint which which I
personally agree with, that the rising use of certain medications
(05:53):
is a major factor behind this increase in falls.
Speaker 2 (05:57):
I mean, I think about this. I'm glad I got
to read this article. It was a little terrifying because
having parents that are getting older, you know, they live
in a house with multiple staircases. They both are on
tons of medication. Like this article spoke to me. It
was terrifying to read.
Speaker 1 (06:13):
Yeah, I mean I get it, Like, you know falls
it can cause hip fractures, but we are not talking
about head injuries, brain bleeds. Like even if someone survives
a fall, they might still lose their independence or their mobility.
So we're talking about potential for like life changing events here, right, right.
Speaker 2 (06:34):
And so this doctor argues that this huge increase is
the result of medications. Is that because these various medications
that he lays out make you dizzy or affect your
mental capability? Like, what is it about these medications and
what are the medications?
Speaker 1 (06:52):
Yeah, so that's a really good question. So a lot
of these medications act on the central nervous system, so
they actually crawl us the blood brain barrier, and so
why why does that matter? Because then when you take them,
you're gonna get dizzy, you're gonna feel loopy, and that's
the major side effect. That's exactly what you don't want
(07:14):
if you're trying not to fall. The effect on the
central nervous system is what actually predisposes. So like someone trips,
if they're of sound mind, they don't fall. But if
you're already dizzy and you're being over medicated, now it's
going to lead to an adverse outcome.
Speaker 2 (07:29):
So the medications are like benzos opioids.
Speaker 1 (07:34):
Yes, So he names a couple of different medications which
you know are really common actually, so benzodiazepines. So these
are like your valium at Evans. They're actually very commonly prescribed,
like in operations.
Speaker 2 (07:52):
You know, the fun ones. Yeah, actually to make you happy.
Speaker 1 (08:00):
Actually it's funny because yeah, I had to have a
medical operation last year and they gave me ivy valium,
and I mean, I'm not gonna lie.
Speaker 2 (08:10):
I was like.
Speaker 1 (08:10):
WHOA, Like this is amazing, and I think I might
have even said that out loud to the staff. Lots
of people have been prescribed out of an valium for
like generalized anxiety, panic, you know, trouble sleeping. That's one list.
Then then they're they're it's the opioid family, right, So
that's like you're victin your oxy, your fentanyl, but that's
(08:34):
your like chronic pain, right, and that think about that.
If you're old, you have arthritis, you're in pain, some
of those meds might be prescribed, right, that's one category.
Then we have your antidepressants, but specifically one category of
antidepressants called tricyclic antidepressants or TCAs. They're kind of an
(08:58):
older type of anti depressant. They're not like a first
line sort of treatment now, but they're very commonly prescribed
for depression, anxiety, or like neuropathy, nerve pain. Speaking of neuropathy,
another met on the list that's really commonly prescribed is gabapentin,
which is used for like nerve issues chronic pain. The
(09:18):
bottom line is, like all of these act on the
central nervous system.
Speaker 2 (09:24):
Man side note, how come every drug has to sound
like gibberish, Like somebody came up with gabapentin and.
Speaker 1 (09:33):
Someone was like, yeah, yeah, yeah, that's the name. That's
the name, that's the right thing. There's like a society
of drug naming people. You know, why are we giving
so many meds to elderly people?
Speaker 2 (09:46):
You know?
Speaker 1 (09:47):
A lot of this has to do with how our
healthcare system, in my opinion, is currently designed. Right, Like
you have short visits, you don't have a lot of
time with a person. It's easier to prescribe a med
than to really take the time to get to know
how does this person live, what is important to them,
(10:08):
and get to the root cause of things. So, you know,
I do think having health care for profit is part
of the reason we are in this situation.
Speaker 2 (10:18):
Like people are being overprescribed.
Speaker 1 (10:20):
I do think that is definitely an issue Yeah, it
goes back to this point that you know, in our
US healthcare system, which is a for profit system, it
is just a lot easier if you don't have a
lot of time with a patient to prescribe a medication
than to take the time to really get to understand
(10:41):
the person, what makes them tick, how do they live
their life, to really get to the root cause of
why they're experiencing what they're experiencing.
Speaker 2 (10:49):
Right, that's the same time I think, you know, especially
I understand especially for younger patients, but with older patients
it's trickier, right, because it's like their quality of life
potentially decreases without the vicodin, without the value, without the
things that soothe the pain. So it becomes, it seems
like it becomes a harder decision. So this is.
Speaker 1 (11:07):
Why it's so important to have a very nuanced discussion
between the healthcare provider and the patient because every case
is different. Like you're bringing up a really good point,
like if someone has crippling arthritis and they're in pain,
like that pain medication might be the difference between quality
of life for them, and so to say point blank
(11:28):
like oh, well take it all away, because it's a
danger to a risk of falls. It's not so black
and white, right, Yeah.
Speaker 2 (11:36):
So the drugs that are described in the op ED
is potentially leading to falls? Like why do elderly people
use those specific drugs?
Speaker 1 (11:43):
Yeah? So, I mean Benzo's for anxiety sleep, right, Like
you need to be able to sleep as you age,
opioids for severe chronic pain, tricyclic antidepressants for depression sleep,
nerve pain, gab apendan for nerve pain. Sometimes even seizures
like these are very helpful, even life changing. But it's
(12:05):
the side effects like sedation and balance that make it
risky for older people.
Speaker 2 (12:12):
So what does the doctor argue is the reason for
the spike? Is it because we're overprescribing? Is that the
direct correlation?
Speaker 1 (12:19):
Yeah, So he talks about over prescribing, and what he
also talks about is de prescribing, which is essentially a
way of cutting back on these medications that increase falls.
So there was an article published in BMC Geriatrics that
concluded that cutting back on unnecessary friids what does that
(12:44):
stand for? Fall risk inducing drugs frids could be a
very simple way to reduce fall rates and help seniors
not only stay safe, but also be independent and active.
Speaker 2 (12:58):
But I imagine, like it's these like fall reducing dress
especially the ones that are alleviating pain, it would be
difficult to give them up if you were an elderly
person like my mom. I forgot the name of the medication,
but she took it for her arthritis and it was
recalled years ago for potentially leading to heart attacks, and
(13:19):
she refused to stop using it for months because you're like,
this is the only thing that makes my pain stop,
and even though there's this other risk of this other
health thing, and that's why these pills were recalled, it's
effective for the pain of walking around each day. So
I can imagine that is a difficult choice, especially for
an elderly person to have to make that call.
Speaker 1 (13:40):
Yeah, exactly. I mean you're hitting the point. That's exactly
why deep prescribing has to be done super carefully with
the help of a healthcare professional, because it's about finding
that balance between the benefit and the risk. But I
just want to point out there is a US prescribing
(14:01):
research network. It's co directed at UCSF by doctor Michael Steinman,
and his research has pointed out that these drugs increase
fall risk by fifty to seventy five percent in older patients.
So it really is about looking at the risks and
the benefits and having a very personalized conversation.
Speaker 2 (14:24):
Now, the counter argument that is proposed is that it's
because how falls were classified, let's say the seventies and
eighties and nineties, and how they're classified now makes it
look like there's an increase. Is that right?
Speaker 1 (14:41):
Yeah, So I think that's a really important point. For example,
if someone fell and then had a brain bleed, they
say that on the death certific they'll say cause of
death brain bleed, but they won't specify like secondary to
fall due to over medication, right, So, like the devil's
(15:03):
in the details, right. Obviously, when it comes to studying
things on such a large scale, the more accurate the
data set that we have, the better we can make
those conclusions.
Speaker 2 (15:14):
I mean, is there anything we can do about this?
Speaker 1 (15:16):
Actually? I do want to say this sort of like
PSA for people listening out there, maybe you're over sixty
five or you're caring for someone who's over the age
of sixty five, there's something called the Beer's criteria beers
as in like surveisa beers. It's actually a list put
out by the American Geriatric Society, and it highlights medications
(15:40):
that older adults should either avoid or use with caution,
and specifically, the twenty twenty five update warns about drugs
that increase fall risk. So if you're taking care of
someone over the age of sixty five, you can actually
ask the physician, Hey, does this medication that you're prescribing
is this on the Beer's list, And if it is,
(16:03):
is there a safer alternative? And a simple question like
that could make the provider just say, you know what,
you're right, let's switch you to something else. And it
couldn't make a difference.
Speaker 2 (16:15):
More after this.
Speaker 1 (16:16):
Break, very excited about today's topic because it takes us
back to the nineteen sixties. We're talking about not counterculture,
but cutting edge medicine LSD. In twenty twenty five, there
was a new clinical trial published in the Journal of
(16:37):
American Medical Association JAMMA, kind of a big deal, and
they looked at whether one single dose of LSD, but
not actually, if I want to get technical, it was
actually a synthetic version of LSD, so it's an LSD
derived drug. They actually called it MM one twenty, which
(16:58):
doesn't sound as cool LSD. They looked at whether a
single dose of this m M one twenty could help
treat generalized anxiety disorder, and the results were interesting.
Speaker 2 (17:11):
Or the results I got all the results. You can
just leave it there.
Speaker 1 (17:17):
So the results show that it could help. It could
be very helpful. After just one treatment, a person who
suffers from generalized anxiety disorder had like sustained relief.
Speaker 2 (17:33):
I mean it's interesting for me as somebody who's not
tried anything. I've never smoked weed, I've obviously never done LSD,
like anxiety, but I have a great deal of anxiety.
Whether it's generalized anxiety we got to figure out. But
like there's something about that that gives me more anxiety.
To be honest, the idea of like using LSD, because
(17:54):
when I think of LSD, I think of like bad
trips and you know it having life long effects. Am
I overthinking this? How safe is this?
Speaker 1 (18:04):
I would say, So that's a really good question I
want to be clear about. Like the way it was
used in the study. It was like a medically monitored thing.
They control the set and setting very carefully, so the
study itself was done in a safe way. I can't
speak for what happens recreationally or anything like that. But
I can definitely say that the study had a very
(18:24):
controlled environment.
Speaker 2 (18:26):
How does LSB work, Like, what does it do?
Speaker 1 (18:30):
Right? So, chemically it works on your serotonin receptors in
your brain, which we know famously is associated with mood,
but it also works on your dopamine receptors and your
epinephrin or nor epinephrine receptor, so the receptors that kind
of get your energy up, and it activates these receptors.
(18:51):
And what happens is when you take it, you notice
there's a change in your mood, there's a change in
your perception, your thought patterns are different. If you do
experience any kind of hallucinations, visuals, altered sensory experience, that's
mostly coming from the serotonin activity. So I think it's
(19:15):
interesting because this study looked at generalized anxiety disorder, which
by definition is when you have anxiety or like worry
or nervousness about everyday events without like a specific trigger,
which to me, I'm like, who doesn't have anxciting right
now about everyday events?
Speaker 2 (19:35):
Yeah, it seems like this it should fit everybody. I think,
are you not reading the news? Do you not know
what's going on.
Speaker 1 (19:43):
Look, I'll be honest. Sometimes I actually have to like
delete news apps from my phone for a couple of
days when I notice, like, Okay, this is just like
too much. It's getting to me.
Speaker 2 (19:55):
I mean as of the week of this recording I'm recording. Wait, wait,
don't tell me in a couple of days. Oh I
love that. Yeah. So it's crazy because it's like that's
the week I have to read most about the news,
and I can feel my anxiety like increasing the week
I have to do the show, just because I'm going
through all this news. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (20:13):
Yeah, I mean, do you get like workers calm for
that or something.
Speaker 2 (20:16):
I will argue that. I will make that argument.
Speaker 1 (20:21):
And I want to be really clear about generalized anxiety
as opposed to normal anxiety. Like normal anxiety is like
sort of this very temperate, usually appropriate response, like you've
had a stressful day, like some challenges occurring, like you're
experiencing anxiety. We're not talking about that. Generalized anxiety is
a chronic anxiety. We're talking about excessive anxiety and worry.
(20:44):
And this is based off of the DSM, which is
sort of like the diagnostic criteria excessive anxiety or worry
occurring more days than not for at least six months,
so a long time about a number of events or
activities like work or school performance, and the person finds
it difficult to control the worry, and there's all these
(21:04):
other associated symptoms. You're restless, you're tired, you can't concentrate,
your irritable, your muscles are tense. It's a very debilitating condition.
And we're talking separate from people that are having panic
attacks or social anxiety or OCD. It's separate, Like all
of that's been ruled out, and ten percent of Americans
(21:27):
have been diagnosed with generalized anxiety disorder. So we're talking
it's interfering with your day to day activities. These are
symptoms that are difficult to control, so like really impacting
quality of life. Do you want to hear about the
actual details of the study, Like so, because I thought
it was a really well done study. First of all,
(21:48):
it was a double blind, placebo controlled trial, so let's
not forget that's sort of like the gold standard when
it comes to clinical research. They looked at almost two
hundred people from twenty two different locations across the United States,
so like really a broad representation of our country, and
(22:09):
people were randomly assigned to get one time dose of
the MM one twenty LSD synthetic version at either twenty
five micrograms fifty hundred, two hundred or a placebo the ones.
Speaker 2 (22:24):
Then you know who's faking it.
Speaker 1 (22:26):
Yeah, It's like in those types of trials, is like
very easy to tell who got the placebo, right, because
they're just like I'm sitting here, and they followed these
people for twelve weeks and then they just measure their
anxiety using like a traditional research based anxiety scale.
Speaker 2 (22:44):
What are the differences between the doses, Like what would happen?
What did they find would happen based on the dose?
Speaker 1 (22:49):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, So they used increments of twenty five
so twenty five micrograms, fifty one hundred and two hundred micrograms,
So like twenty five micrograms of LSD is basically like
a microdose. You know, you'll barely notice something like maybe
a few shifts in your perceptions, Like fifty micrograms were
(23:10):
talking a few light psychedelic effects, like maybe some visual shimmer,
some mood changes. One hundred micrograms is sort of like
considered a classic dose to what like recreational users would use,
and then two hundred micrograms is like a strong heavy dose.
And the reason I'm harping on the doses is because
(23:30):
it affected the results. Like they found that one hundred
micrograms is what actually led to these huge reductions in
anxiety for at least three months.
Speaker 2 (23:42):
The idea is that these doses would be administered with
somebody watching them, or would it be something they would
take at home, Like how would it like they're not
expecting the people to take this at home by themselves?
Speaker 1 (23:55):
No, no, no, no, no. It wasn't very like tightly
they had monitor but I want to be clear, like
the monitors weren't allowed to do therapy. There was no
like formal therapy allowed. So they were just there to
make sure people were comfortable, safe, Like they gave them
eye shades, they walked them through the bathroom, they played music,
but they weren't doing therapy or interpreting anything, right, because
(24:20):
the study authors wanted to see if just the MM
one twenty alone without any talk therapy reduced anxiety.
Speaker 2 (24:28):
What's the deal with the music?
Speaker 1 (24:29):
Yeah, so music we know in psychedelic therapy. And I'm
leaning on my experience working in psychedelic research trials, music
can make the difference of the entire experience, like it
guides the experience. I'm sure you like psychedelics aside, when
you listen to music, do you get really moved?
Speaker 2 (24:50):
Yeah, I get depressed. I listened to sech Okay, so
that's a listening I'm still listening to the Smiths and
enjoy division. Yeah, I get I get moved to se.
Speaker 1 (25:00):
Is So I mean, like that's one example of the
power of music, right, So it can literally make a
difference about like your mindset, how you're going to feel.
One limitation in this study is like they don't spell
out clearly what music was exactly played or how the
environment was structured. But music definitely matters in like creating
(25:23):
the set and setting because it can impact hugely how
the psychedelics are experienced.
Speaker 2 (25:29):
Now you've worked like with ketamine, so that's like, yeah,
that's your expertise, and then the people have also done
stuff with MDMA, yeah, and with psilocybin. Like how does
this vary? How come each one is different? Yeah?
Speaker 1 (25:43):
Yeah, So, I mean they all work differently on the brain,
and it kind of depends on the issue that you're
trying to work with, Like this study was looking at
generalized anxiety. Ketamine is very helpful for depression that's not
responding to medications. There's been studies looking at ssilocybin, which
(26:05):
acts on the serotonin receptors for depression, but also like
end of life anxiety, which I think is very different
than generalized anxiety. And then you know, the research for
MDMA with PTSD is very strong. So it kind of
depends on sort of like what is the issue that
you're trying to tackle, and then sort of figuring out like, well,
(26:27):
what is the treatment that works best for that said issue.
You know, it's like in medicine, right with other issues,
like you have a heart condition, so you would be
given a heart medicine something like that.
Speaker 2 (26:42):
LSD is not legal yet, right.
Speaker 1 (26:44):
Correct, It's a Schedule one substance. It's a controlled substance,
so it's completely not legal. You can only use it
in research settings.
Speaker 2 (26:55):
But psilocybin is legal now.
Speaker 1 (26:57):
No, not all of these. Ketamine is the only sort
of legal controlled substance. Psilocybin is still a Schedule one substance, Okay,
in the United States. I should clarify.
Speaker 2 (27:11):
I want to get to an aha moment right now?
Speaker 1 (27:13):
Okay, oh yeah, okay, let's do it.
Speaker 2 (27:15):
What role do drug companies have in this study?
Speaker 1 (27:19):
Like who paid for the study?
Speaker 2 (27:21):
Right?
Speaker 1 (27:21):
Yeah, yeah, big surprise. The company that develops the m
M one twenty huh. They sponsored and funded the trial.
So the name of the company is called mind Meed,
which is a very funny name. And it's important to know,
like several of the authors of this study they actually
(27:42):
worked for mind meeds. Some of them have stock options,
which you know, I think is important to name, right, Like,
they have a financial incentive if this.
Speaker 2 (27:51):
Really succeeds skin in the game.
Speaker 1 (27:52):
They have skin in the game. Yeah, exactly. So I
think this is a very promising study. But you know,
we also want to name the financial ties and I
would love to see if this could be replicated in
other studies with people who don't have financial ties to
the organization stock options, who don't have stock options. Yeah,
I think we need to do a stock option free trial.
(28:15):
I just want to say, I think this study is
really interesting for me. You know, it would be really
cool if in a couple of years or whenever this
eventually goes through, to be able to offer this as
a treatment for patients personally with GAD. I love the
idea of potentially being able to offer that, So you know,
(28:36):
I'm going to definitely be interested in how this research
continues and you know, making sure that the trials are
like really good and vetted, and you know, I think
it'll be really exciting in the future potentially.
Speaker 2 (28:49):
I also think it's interesting because like, all these Class
eight drugs are definitely like stigmatized, right sometimes for good reason,
but like they the idea that these drugs to stigmatize
actually having value still potentially like being used to help people,
I think is incredibly important because why are we not
(29:09):
using all our resources?
Speaker 1 (29:11):
Right right? It does make you think, right, well, are
they really as terrible as our government policies say they are.
We'll be back with more health stuff after this break.
So yeah, I actually am very excited to talk about
(29:31):
this last segment because I think it's a question that
can divide a lot of households. Potentially, should you let
your pet sleep with you?
Speaker 2 (29:42):
Let's just clarify that when we say sleep with you,
we mean sleep next to you. I think that is
very crucial if you are listening for the former reason
you were on the wrong podcast.
Speaker 1 (29:53):
Yes. The Mayo's Clinic Center for Sleep Medicine survey says
that more than half of people say they let their
pets into the bedroom at night, and more than a
third of kids share the bed with their pets. So
you know a lot of people are doing this. Now,
I had a pet was no longer with us, rest
(30:15):
in peace. Yeah, and we never I never slept with
my pets, slept next.
Speaker 2 (30:23):
To my pasts.
Speaker 1 (30:24):
You know. He would sometimes maybe sleep in the same room,
but definitely not in the bed with me.
Speaker 2 (30:32):
Oh, our family, like the plan wasn't for our dog
to sleep in the beds with us, but like it
just happened, and we allowed it to happen because she
was so cuddly and you tend to forget that this
is an animal. Yeah, so you can just but you know,
they they treated her like like like their animal daughter
(30:54):
and so yeah, so like they were they were My
folks were totally cool with having the dog sleep in
the bed. But the dog was smart. She would sleep
in the bed till like two in the morning, and
when she knew they were out, she would go into
the guest room where nobody was sleeping and have the
whole bed to herself. So she and then before like
(31:15):
the morning, she would sneak back into the other room
and like pretend nothing happened. It was. It was hilarious.
But like smart dog, very smart dog. I mean I
think that there's some's it's wild because these are former wolves,
Like these are creatures that like should not be sharing
space in this room. We've domesticated them to such a
(31:37):
degree where we can even have them in the bed.
But obviously, like they're animals and they're filthy, and like
at least like I have a child, but my child
at least knows how to wash their hands and take
a bath at this point, like with a with a dog,
you don't get that. So like in terms of hygiene alone,
it seems like, oh boy.
Speaker 1 (31:56):
I forget that dogs are wolves that I just like
figured out how to hack the system.
Speaker 2 (32:01):
You know, is that what the is are they just
sell out? Wolves sell.
Speaker 1 (32:06):
I just imagine the society of dogs are like standing
in a corner smoking a cigarette and they're just like,
we got these humans, so figure it out. Yeah, So
interesting studies that have actually been published on that that
I'm really excited to share because Mayo Clinic Proceedings in
twenty fifteen published a study called are Pets in the
(32:26):
Bedroom a Problem? And they studied whether pets could disrupt
the sleep environment, So we're talking like moving around, barking,
or just like are they making the room hotter? And
then later in twenty twenty two, a Dutch study published
in the journal Pathogens looked at the health risks of
(32:47):
having pets in your bed, and they studied a couple
dozen dogs and cats, and they found that a majority
of them, like eighty percent of the dogs and cats
had and tarol back to which is a kind of
bacteria that includes ecoli. So they were loaded with a
lot of ecoli.
Speaker 2 (33:06):
So we can catch their stuff.
Speaker 1 (33:08):
I mean they carry this, right, So if the hygiene
isn't great and they're going in the bed, As a doctor,
I'm thinking, okay, immunocompromise people, elderly people, pregnant people, maybe kids,
like they're probably the highest risk, right, Like I would
just be a little careful.
Speaker 2 (33:28):
Wait, so they carry ecoli.
Speaker 1 (33:30):
It's part of the group that includes ecoli. They don't
they can have ecoli as well as a whole other
group of enteroback.
Speaker 2 (33:37):
But we can get their stuff. Yeah, you can.
Speaker 1 (33:40):
Definitely, you can definitely get that's called actually a zoonotic
risk when it goes from animal to human and it's
mostly on dogs footpads, So you know you're really smart.
You wash your son's hands, you keep the hands clean.
You got to do that with the dogs too.
Speaker 2 (33:55):
God, that's so wild, man, just I mean, but the
study shows that they helped with sleep or that they
don't help with all.
Speaker 1 (34:03):
Oh yeah, So back to the original study. Thanks for that.
The original study that I want to bring back was
from twenty seventeen. Again, Mayo Clinic published a lot of
studies about this. The title was the Effect of Dogs
on Human Sleep in the Home Sleep Environment, And they
took forty healthy adults, mostly women, and their dogs and
(34:23):
for seven nights they wore risk monitors to track their
sleep and the dogs were coller monitors. And they basically
compared dogs sleeping in the room versus dogs sleeping in
the bed and bottom line is having your dog in
the bedroom doesn't affect sleep quality. People still slept well,
(34:44):
had a good sleep efficiency, but when the dogs are
in your bed, sleep efficiency drops just by a little
not a huge difference, like three percent, but it was
a significant difference.
Speaker 2 (34:56):
So what's the point of the animal being in the
room not being on the bed. At that point, it
doesn't really matter where the animal is. Right when you're asleep,
are you sensing your animal? Like? What is that?
Speaker 1 (35:08):
I'm a sensitive sleeper, so like if if someone moves
or it gets too hot, I cannot sleep. The room
has to be sixty eight degrees or lower otherwise it's
just not gonna happen. So for me, like, look, I
love dogs, cuddly, fuzzy, sweet, all the things, but like
(35:30):
if you're next to me, like the big fur ball, like,
I don't think I could do it.
Speaker 2 (35:36):
I mean, I snore, So I feel bad for any
pet that would share a benefit. It's like I feel
like I'm affecting their sleep if anything.
Speaker 1 (35:44):
Oh man, that reminds me of the time. You know,
when my grandparents were alive. They snored like it was
nobody's business. And every time our dog would sleep in
their room, I swear to God, the next day the
dog would come out. He would have like bags under
his eyes. He didn't sleep all nights, like he worked
the night shift or something. It was hilarious.
Speaker 2 (36:03):
Well, let's weigh this out Let's weigh out clearly the
pros and the cons.
Speaker 1 (36:07):
Okay, since you actually have experience sleeping next to your pet,
you say.
Speaker 2 (36:13):
The pros comfort companion that's sure, yes, right, security that
I feel like there's a stress relief factor there. Sure,
I have to say some of the stuff I suppose
a teddy bear could do comfort companionship, some sense of security.
Speaker 1 (36:33):
It is also a form of if the dog is
just breathing, like the rhythmic expansion and contraction of the
ribcage could be very soothing, I suppose, almost like a
white noise perhaps. Yeah. See the cons like if the
dog has any kind of respiratant like snoring issues that noise,
(36:55):
or if they're like, you know, making any kind of noise,
or oh, someone is doing some outside of the house,
the barking starts. Oh no, I cannot, I can't, I can't.
And then the movement, like if they're moving around like
all the time. And for me though, it's the heat,
I can't. I can't handle the heat. And then you know,
as I outline some of the health risks, I don't know,
(37:16):
like the e coli thing that that really stresses me out.
Speaker 2 (37:19):
You know, man, I don't have a dog. It's it's
a bummer because like sleeping next to a dog and
cuddling with the dog is really sweet, it really like,
it's just it makes life a little more livable. And
we're saying to people, no, you're gonna get e cola
if you do that.
Speaker 1 (37:38):
No, no, listen. I am four dogs in the room
based off of this the Mayo Clinic data. Like I'm like, yeah,
keep your dog in the room, but just know if
you're gonna sleep in the bed. I just think there's
you need to know all the risks. But for some
people it's fine. So like definitely no judgment here.
Speaker 2 (37:58):
Whatever people are and people sleep next to other people
in beds.
Speaker 1 (38:02):
Yeah, that's true.
Speaker 2 (38:03):
That's true. Like how often are people passing on germs
to other people? Probably more than animals are.
Speaker 1 (38:11):
Yeah, I mean it depends on the partner, right, Like
I say, just go all in, sleep next to your animal,
except if it's a cat. You're not a cat person.
Speaker 2 (38:23):
I don't trust them.
Speaker 1 (38:25):
Oh that's fair.
Speaker 2 (38:26):
I don't know.
Speaker 1 (38:26):
They're still cuddly, it's just smaller, but they need to
be like friendly.
Speaker 2 (38:30):
I feel like I have cuddled enough cats where it
seems great and all of a sudden, they just turn
and scratch, and it's like, what, yeah, after what we've
been through for the last half an hour, Yeah, yeah,
that's fair, We've lost our cat. Demographic. Health Stuff is
(38:52):
a production of iHeart Podcasts. The show is hosted by
me Harrikin Debolu and doctor Preanco Wally. Producers are Rebecca Eisenberg,
Jenna Cagel, Christina Loringer, Maya Howard, and Katrina Norville. Our
researcher is Maria Tremarki and our intern is Katiya Zobildea Ayala.
To send us a question, you can email us at
voicemail at health Stuff podcast at gmail dot com. Thank
(39:16):
you for listening.
Popular Podcasts
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
The Bobby Bones Show
Listen to 'The Bobby Bones Show' by downloading the daily full replay.