December 3, 2025 • 45 mins
Could sunlight be the key to better sleep? Hari and Priyanka talk with science journalist Lynne Peeples about circadian rhythms, light exposure, and simple ways to work with you body's natural clock. As Lynne puts it: "Be clockwise."
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
This podcast is for information purposes only and should not
be considered professional medical advice.
Speaker 2 (00:05):
Oh I like to sleep in late and sleep early.
Is there a chronotype for that? Or am I just depressed?
What are those consequences?
Speaker 3 (00:18):
Sure?
Speaker 1 (00:22):
Did you know about all of these impacts when you
decided to live in a bunker, Because that is wild.
Speaker 4 (00:33):
Sleeping and sync with your with your ranithms is really key.
So contrast, consolidate, consistency.
Speaker 1 (00:41):
I love that the three c's.
Speaker 3 (00:47):
I'm hurry, condibolu, I'm doctor pre uncle Wally, And this
is health stuff.
Speaker 1 (00:53):
Hi everyone, and welcome back to health Stuff. Today's conversation
is with science journalists, statistician and off Lind Peoples. Her
work shines a light on how our bodies depend on
well aligned circadian rhythms and what happens when that rhythm
gets disrupted. To study this firsthand, she spent ten days
living fifty feet underground in a Cold War era bunker
(01:17):
with no daylight and no clocks. It's wild. We get
into what she learned, how light pollution affects all of us,
and the practical ways you can support your own light
exposure and circadian rhythm. We also talk about our new book,
The Inner Clock, Living in Sync with our Circadian Rhythms.
We hope you enjoy the conversation.
Speaker 3 (01:37):
Lind Peoples, thank you for joining us on health stuff.
Speaker 2 (01:42):
I cannot wait to get into your research and all that,
but before we get there, you got to explain the
basics to us. What is a circadian rhythm and how
does it affect a human being?
Speaker 4 (01:55):
Sure, well, thank you so much for having me on.
So a cicccadian rhythm is actually, well, it's a bit
of a misnomer. It's rhythms. So our bodies are filled
with these biological clocks, and in fact, we have like
trillions of them. Every nearly every cell of our body
has one. We evolve with them to coordinate our bodies
(02:16):
so we're doing the right things at the right time.
So we've got clocks everywhere from our nose to our toes,
sculder muscle, our organs. They all need to be in
sync with each other and with the sun. So we
evolved on a twenty four hour rotating plant. And because
(02:37):
of the differences, you know, based on time of day
light dark, our bodies in a coordination with each other.
Our bodies are prime to do the right things at
the right times. So whether that's digest food or be
at our strongest or fend off you know, invading pathogens,
all these things are optimized because we can't do everything
twenty four to seven, so we kind of allotted times
(02:59):
for certain things. When modern life throws wrenches in that clockworks,
which it does on a regular we lose the beat
and that has profound consequences.
Speaker 3 (03:10):
What are those consequences?
Speaker 1 (03:12):
Sure?
Speaker 4 (03:15):
I mean, we all know, you know, the problems of
sleep deprivation. Right, We're having trouble falling asleep. So that's
the first thing that people usually associate with circadian rhythm,
but that is just the tip of the iceberg. So
we're talking about reduced productivity. We're talking about increased risk
of just getting sick acutely and then long term, if
(03:37):
our circadian rhythms are off for an extended period of time,
research is finding that we have increased risks of things
like metabolic disorders, potentially of cancer. So it's everything from
kind of our moods, you know, whether we're feeling good
about ourselves, whether we're being productive, whether we're at our
peak performance, whether we're sleeping well, and whether we're healthy.
(04:01):
All these things have implications with our circadian rhythms.
Speaker 1 (04:06):
So I mean, you're talking about major, major aspects of
people's health well being. I really want to ask you,
I mean, did you know about all of these impacts
when you decided to live in a bunker, because that
is wild, Like.
Speaker 4 (04:25):
What made you want to do that? I am a
little crazy. Yeah, that was early on in my reporting
for this book. I'd been reading about historical experiments in
which other people had done similar or worse and are better,
depending on how you define it, And I was just
(04:45):
curious for myself, you know, how did my interclocks really
really tick and what would it feel like to really
let them go? Bunkers, you know, go off on their own.
As I've been learning, if we don't keep sync to
the sun, if we don't see regular light during the
day darkness at night, we weren't giving our in our
clocks those cues of the count on to say and sink.
(05:06):
Then they essentially free run. And some of us run different,
you know, a little longer, a little shorter than others,
which is associated with whether we are night owls or
early birds. And so I kind of personally I was
curious how did my clocks tick and then how would
it feel to truly become desynchronized, for my circadian rhythms
(05:28):
to be disrupted? So it was sort of yeah, a
little self inflicting pain and what kind of I mean.
Speaker 1 (05:35):
Like, what kind of review do you leave on the
Airbnb for that?
Speaker 4 (05:38):
Like, oh my gosh, it was weird.
Speaker 3 (05:45):
I did.
Speaker 4 (05:47):
I did splurge. So this was no ordinary Airbnb bunker.
So I wasn't really into a hole in the ground. Really,
this was, oh my gosh. The guy had souped this
Airbnb up. He bought from the government, this old Cold
War era bunker. You know, it was filled with like
water whatever they had sealed it up after the Cold War,
and he souped it up. I mean we're talking massive kitchen,
(06:11):
two refrigerators, a floating bed, a b day. I mean,
we have a whole day. I mean, we love those days.
So yeah, so don't feel she sorry for me, but yes,
I did. I did go a little crazy. I was
certainly feeling off within you know, a few days without
any sense of time.
Speaker 3 (06:32):
Was it essentially a basement apartment?
Speaker 4 (06:34):
Then it sounds like yes, So that's that's kind of
the point, is you know, I went to an extreme here, right,
I mean I had no windows, no clocks, no other
people around. But every day a good proportion of the
population is doing nearly the same to their bodies, right,
I mean, maybe a little more daylight, maybe they have
(06:57):
a clock on the wall or more likely on their wrist,
but they are also confusing their clocks and there are consequences.
Speaker 2 (07:05):
I mean, I find this very interesting. Also because you're
a sea adlite. I'm a former sea Adlite. We don't
get as much sun as we probably should, especially certain
times of the year.
Speaker 3 (07:15):
How does that affect.
Speaker 2 (07:17):
The Northwest, for example, like places that don't get as
much light for certain parts of the year. Is that
the reason for the greater rate of depression?
Speaker 4 (07:25):
That is what scientists think absolutely so seasonal effective disorder,
other know, other means of depression. They do think that
having less light and having these extreme changes in the
day links and that's really kind of a lot of
what it comes down to. The further you go north,
the further you go south from the equator, those shifts
(07:48):
in how many hours of light we get during the
day really change, and they change rapidly. I actually spoke
with a sleep researcher and clinician in Alaska, and he
was saying that he sees a lot more patience with
sleep troubles with depression during the transition months. In the
fall early fall day length is shrinking rapidly and that's
(08:12):
when he sees the most people suffering from related health
issues with that mental health issues primarily, and in the
spring too. Of course. You know, our days are getting longer,
which is great. We're all excited for those longer hours
of daylight, but that really confuses our systems, you know,
it's hard for them to keep up. We evolved at
(08:32):
the equator where there was twelve hours a light and
twelve hours are dark.
Speaker 1 (08:37):
And you mentioned seasonal effective disorder. Five percent of Americans
suffer from seasonal effective disorder. Can you explain what neuropsin
and molinopsin are and why they matter, especially for people
struggling with seasonal effective depression.
Speaker 4 (08:54):
Yeah, so there is some really cool research that's been
coming on for what's been decades now. By really getting
more fune tuned, that's helping us understand that, you know,
the normal indoor lights we have are really tuned to
our visual system and they rely heavily on green wavelengths
of light. That's really what our visual system needs to
be able to see the world around us. But now
(09:16):
that we understand that, there's this other photoreceptor in our
eyes that is picking up on light as well, and
it's sending that information to this central clock in our brain.
But the way it interprets that same light information is
very differently, and it's really relying more on blue wavelengths
of light to tell that it's daytime. There's midday sun,
(09:39):
it's a full spectrum, but it is heavily concentrated with blue,
So that's what's telling us it's a daytime and then
at night it's the opposite. You see blue light, our
bodies confused, it thinks it's still daytime and that can
throw things off. So now that we understand that and
that's this melanopsin pigment that's picking up on that information,
now we're finding and that you know, you've probably heard
(10:01):
about happy lamps or you know, these sun lamps that
help with seasonal effective disorder. So getting enough of that light,
even if it's not fully natural in the winter, you know,
if the sun doesn't come up till really late, if
you're in the high latitudes and sitting in front of
one of these lamps that is putting out a lot
(10:21):
of the blue light can help decrease some of those
symptoms of seasonal effective disorder because it's helping our clocks
get back and sink and see that it is daytime.
Speaker 2 (10:31):
I mean knowing the impact light then does have on
your moods, on your sleep. What happens if you're blind
or visually impaired, Yeah.
Speaker 4 (10:39):
And this this really depends. So I talked to people
with both blindness that was a result of actually losing
their eyes. So one man I spoke with was in
a fire works accident and truly lost his eyes. And
then there's others that you know, become blind for different reasons.
And so what really depends on if you still have
(11:01):
those photo receptors picking up the light, the photoreceptors that
are communicating to your clock, so they could still be
functioning even if your visual system isn't necessarily functioning. Right,
But the man I spoke with that lost his eyes,
you know, he lost all of it, so he also
lost that connection between you know, that light information and
(11:21):
the circadian clock. So he found himself truly just drifting.
You know, his family was living on a twenty four
hour day, but his body was just you know, every
few days he would kind of cycle around sort of
like you know, being extremely jetlaged, traveling around the world constantly,
and so he you know, he found some remedies that
helped kind of rain in his clocks a little bit.
(11:43):
Primarily the use of melatonin strategically helped him out. But yeah,
it's a it's definitely a big problem for those people, and.
Speaker 1 (11:51):
You know, from a health perspective, just want to add, like,
for example, if people have cataracts, this is one of
the reasons that it's beneficial to get those cataracts place
so that you can actually get exposure to more blue
light because the cataract itself is almost like a blockage
of allowing that blue light to enter your eye.
Speaker 4 (12:10):
Yeah. I found that so fascinating, Right, it's yellowing the eye,
which is restricting the blue light that gets in there.
And they think scientists think this is one of the
reasons as we get older that it's harder and harder
for us to keep our circading rhythms and sync because
we're not getting that necessary input. And they're also there's
studies showing that cataract surgery may decrease the risk of Alzheimer's,
(12:34):
and that opens up in other can of worms. But
we're finding connections kind of both for bidirectional connections between
circading rhythm disruption and the development of Alzheimer's disease and
the progression of it.
Speaker 3 (12:46):
Can you explain the concept of chronotypes to us? Sure?
Speaker 4 (12:49):
So we mostly hear about night owls, early birds. You know,
we might categorize ourselves in one of those camps. So
scientifically the scientists refer to chronotypes, and it's really this
full spectrum. Everybody falls somewhere on this curve in which
your body is more inclined to go to sleep at
(13:10):
an earlier hour, get up at an earlier hour everywhere,
from people that can't stay awake past maybe six pm.
I spoke with some of these people and those that
can't fall asleep before five am. You know, there really
is a wide breadth of chronotypes across the population. And
there's some interesting theories on why that might be. Why evolutionarily,
(13:34):
at help that we didn't all go to bed at
the same time. There was always somebody awake to watch
out for the village right to see if there were
any intruders, any bears approaching. So it's interesting how we
all were all a little different. We all tick a
little differently, and that raises a lot of issues when
everybody is required to be at school, we're at work
at the same early early morning.
Speaker 1 (13:56):
Time, we're going to take a sh or break stay
with us. So many questions around this, like, you know,
are we born with the particular chronotype and that's the
chronotype we have for life or can we change our chronotype?
Can this change over time, because there's huge implications to.
Speaker 4 (14:19):
This and what you're alluding to one hundred percent that
was a really good question, and we do so. We
are biologically programmed with a certain chronotype. However, it does
change throughout our lives. So when we're born, we don't
have a lot of rhythm, as parents can attest to. You know,
we're who are sleeping at all hours in a week,
(14:42):
crying at all hours. But as we get older, young
children tend to be slightly earlier chronotypes, and then as
they hit the teen years adolescence, they will naturally on
average delay their inner clocks, so their inter clocks will
get a little later they'll be a little more night
owl ish, and then middle age we kind of swing
(15:07):
back a little bit again. And there's some debate, but
as we get older, we tend to you know, get
a little earlier again. But that's also yeah, there's been
some evidence kind of going a few different directions there,
but it really comes down to it changes throughout our
lives and as we get older. What the science is
(15:29):
pretty clear about is it is harder for us to
keep rhythm. That you can think of circadian rhythms as
having this amplitude right this you know, valleys and peaks
of strength that telling our body to do the right
things at the right times again, but that kind of
flattens out as we get older. It's harder for us
to get the cues to communicate to our circadian rhythms,
(15:52):
and also that part of our brain is perhaps not
functioning quite as well, which is why as we get
older it's really important try to get even more of
those cues, or just be more diligent about getting light
during the day, getting darknes sun night, and we can
get into some of those things.
Speaker 2 (16:08):
What would life look like if we actually lived as
a society based on circadian rhythms is also a good question.
Speaker 4 (16:16):
I mean, it's you know, it might be a little
far fetched to think that we're all going to go,
you know, camp out every night again. Dream let's man, Dylan,
we can do it, oh in my dream world. Yes. However,
I think there's a balance. I think society is quote
(16:37):
unquote evolved to this twenty four to seven you know
world global economy in which we have Amazon deliveries that'll
come to us in four hours by four am. You know,
there's twenty four seven supermarkets and gyms and everything is
open around the clock, and that all that means a
lot more night shift workers are needed, right to keep
(16:59):
these things functioning. So there are a lot of ways
in which modern society has really made it difficult. But
I think, you know a few of those things are
quote unquote optional. Right, We could consider as a society
trying to you know, shift back a little bit, and
as far as our architecture goes, we could bring more
(17:20):
light into our spaces. We can think about things like
urban plan and architecture and different means in which we
can Maybe we're not going to be sleeping out in tents,
but maybe we can try to cut down the amount
of light that we pump out at night from our
street lamps, from our billboards. We can think about during
the day bringing more light into our spaces to try
(17:42):
to reinfuse some of that contrast that we evolved with you.
Speaker 1 (17:45):
You're hitting on such an important point, a rent, like
our society is driving this right, Like I can't show
up tomorrow and tell like my patients like sorry, I'm
not coming in today. My chronotype is changing because like
you know, like it's just part of life, like peace
to you, you know. So how how can someone sort
of figure out what is their true chronotype and then
(18:07):
figure out like what kind of job or work schedule
is the best fit for them for that season.
Speaker 4 (18:14):
Yeah, this is also really interesting. I talk to a
lot of people who were successful in doing this, But
step back, so as far as identifying your own chronotype,
this can be difficult because most of us, as we're
you know, at least most adults or even kids I
guess that are forced to get up for school, we've
sort of masked our natural chronotype because we're forced to
(18:37):
follow a certain schedule. So really, the only way to
tell what your chronotype is is to go on vacation,
a long vacation. Go somewhere where you don't have any obligations,
where you can go to bed when your body is
telling you to get up when your body is telling
you to and take note of that and then see
(19:00):
what kind of wiggle room you have in your schedule
to try to accommodate that.
Speaker 3 (19:06):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (19:06):
I spoke with a couple people who have you know,
self identified as extreme on one end or another, an
extreme early bird in an extreme night owl, and this
one woman an extreme night owl. She was thrilled she
had found this job right before we spoke, in which
she could work on Australia time from the Mideast. So
(19:30):
she's a veterinary pathologist and she was reading, you know,
digitally cases that came in from Australia throughout the night
and that was perfect for her and her health improved.
She was feeling so much better. Right. So it's you know,
there's you know, more night shift jobs probably than there
are extreme night owls that truly fit those jobs. But
if we can help, you know, direct and match people
(19:52):
to those maybe would take off some of the weight
that's on the rest.
Speaker 2 (19:57):
It's interesting because you said, like vacation help you determine
what kind of chronotype you have. I'm a stand up comedian,
so my job is essentially a vacation every day. So
that being said, I I like to sleep in late
and sleep early. Is there a chronotype for that? Or
(20:17):
am I just depressed?
Speaker 3 (20:21):
Yeah?
Speaker 4 (20:23):
You are of your own extreme. We're going to create
another night. Are stand up gigs like late at night?
Speaker 2 (20:35):
Not if you only take the early shows that.
Speaker 3 (20:41):
I like to go up early and get home at
a reasonable hour.
Speaker 4 (20:44):
I see, Okay, especially as.
Speaker 2 (20:47):
I've gotten older, Like the idea of a three am
gig is not happening.
Speaker 4 (20:51):
I hear you. There's no way I can handle that. Well,
I'm glad you found a job that fits your chronotype.
Speaker 3 (20:56):
Well, thank you.
Speaker 1 (20:57):
Let's let's circle back a little bit to something you
alluded to. So, first of all, I mean, it's so clear,
like we human beings, we need access to sunlight in
order to be well. I think this should be a
basic human right, the access to light. But clearly you've
pointed out there are clear inequities. Right For example, like
(21:20):
in New York City, these high rises that are built
up generally are accessible to the ultra wealthy. They are
getting access to abundant amounts of natural daylight, and ironically,
the high rises themselves are casting shadows generally on lower
income communities that are literally in the dark. You know,
(21:40):
this is the sort of like light inequity. So, I mean,
what changes need to be made, either policy wise or
through urban designs, so we can make our societies, our
cities more equitable from a light perspective.
Speaker 4 (21:54):
Yeah, I really this is an area I feel quite
passionate about, just like you think about all the ways
in which certain populations are getting hit the hard ist
with these things. They're also more likely to be shift workers, right,
these same people that are basically living in the shadows
in these basement apartments and the shadows of these skyscrapers,
and they're going to work potentially in a warehouse, right,
(22:16):
They're less likely to have a corner office with windows.
So I think just awareness, It starts with awareness once
people realize that this inequity exists. I mean, people probably
don't realize that they're not happy with the fact that
they can't see daylight, but to understand what's actually happening
(22:36):
to their biology as well. So I think recognizing that
and then working with ye lighting designers, architects, urban planners.
There are more and more products out there that are
mimicking daylight that are getting a little bit closer. You know,
nothing can be the real thing, but we're finding ways
in which we can have certain wavelengths that full spectrum,
(22:58):
particularly that blue coming out at a decent intensity during
the day from a fixture. So even if they don't
have access to windows, there's there is a light that
it's telling their body that it is daytime. So if
we can get those into these spaces and then you know,
the easier solution is at night, like do we need
(23:18):
these floodlights in street lights shining into people's bedroom windows.
That's what it really appalled me when I was walking
around these social housing complexes where you know, I get
it right, people feel safer. Perhaps if there's a lot
of light studies show it's a little equivocal, like there's
there's some studies that show that more light just means
(23:39):
more shadows for people for criminals to hide in. You know,
that not always going to make a space safer. But
if we could direct those lights, you know, only to
the ground, keep them from shining in people's windows, perhaps
provide blackout shades to people, just educate them about the
importance of darkness at night light during the day. I
(24:01):
think on a lot of different levels here we could,
you know, have some impact in lesson the consequences.
Speaker 2 (24:10):
That's fascinating just how race and class intersect with light
and health. Are there cultures that do that do it
better in terms of circadian rhythms than ours? Like I
think about you know, during COVID, when so many of
us were working at home, I would imagine that was
better for circadian rhythms, just because we're the work just
(24:33):
had to get done. You wake up, maybe you still
have to wake up at nine, but you're not waking
up at six or seven necessarily to take a train
or travel to work. You're getting a little bit more sleep,
maybe fitting what you naturally would do, and you can
sleep at a more reasonable hour. Like are there cultures
that do it better? And was that COVID period healthier
(24:53):
for us in terms of circadian rhythms?
Speaker 4 (24:55):
I think in some ways yes, in some ways no,
So I think I think it did allow a lot
of people to live more in tune with their biology
as you as you mentioned, I also think it really
depended where people lived right and where their home office was.
There were a lot of people that had to set
up a home office in a in a basement or
(25:18):
a closet even and you know, if they had been
commuting by foot, by bike, even driving every morning, they
no longer had that queue, that predictable queue for their
bodies of morning in daytime. But then on the other hand,
a lot more people had the freedom, you know, like
you mentioned again, to wake up according to their inner clocks,
(25:40):
but also maybe to go out for a walk more
often or you know, be outdoors. So it varied a lot.
I think, you know, I'm a whole I think maybe
there were more people that benefited. And then outside of that, yeah,
there are populations or communities that naturally live more in
sync with the sun, and the Amish come to mind.
(26:03):
There were studies looking at how they live. You know, Yeah,
they have less electricity, so that's going to naturally cut
down on the light at night, and they spend more
time outdoors and they're you know, a lot of their
work is more traditional outdoor work on you know, I
think they're just more naturally getting that light. I can't
(26:24):
remember what the numbers were, but they actually had some
of these people where uh sun or of light monitors,
and they got many fold as I recalled, moral light
during the day than the average American.
Speaker 3 (26:37):
Wow.
Speaker 1 (26:38):
Yeah, it sort of gives a new meaning to the
phrase sun salutation and yoga practice, right, Like you know,
the World Health Organization actually labeled shift work as a
carcinogen and yeah, And so the question I have is, then,
shouldn't the workplace have somewhat of a moral responsibility to
(26:59):
either all for benefits that minimize harm? Should Amazon be
providing light boxes to the nighttime shift workers? Like who
is responsible? Then it's a really good question.
Speaker 4 (27:15):
I think this needs to be talked about more personally.
From what I learned, the evidence just kind of keeps
piling up about the consequences of shift work, and there's
a lot of varieties to this. Of course, there's rotating
shift work, in which some people just keep having a
different schedule the time. There are the rare shift worker
(27:38):
out there who is able to completely flip their entire
lives in which they might work at night, but even
on their off days, they're able to keep it a
night's schedule, so at least their body has consistency of
associating when during the day they're sleeping and when they're awake,
and that cuts down on the consequences. But yeah, I
(28:01):
think we need to be thinking about this. We need
to be The science is helping point to some remedies
to some extent that can diminish some of the consequences. So,
for example, there was research out of Harvard that showed
even if you're working at night, especially if you're one
of those who's going to go back onto a day's
schedule and you're off days to sync up with your family,
(28:23):
then consolidating the hours in which you're consuming calories or
eating to still the daylight hours, so you might be
awake at night working but tried not to eat during
that shift. That could reduce the risks of metabolic disease
that we have now found as associated with shift work.
So earlier little things like that. And you mentioned the
(28:44):
light boxes, so you know, depending on your schedule, there's
different rules about you know, when you should get light
when you shouldn't, how and how do we balance alertness
versus not screwing up your circadian rhythms. It gets complicated,
but again as a sign it's builds. We have more
and more ideas in which we're able to help support
them in a very unnatural situation.
Speaker 2 (29:08):
Now, I remember being a kid and always being so
upset that school was so early. That oh, yes, when
I was in especially when I was in high school. Right,
And now, all of a sudden, you know, I'm just
I've discovered, you know, from doing this research, that there's
something called sleep phase delay, and so it's normal for
teenagers to want to sleep in later.
Speaker 3 (29:30):
So that being said, was I right? Was school too early?
Speaker 4 (29:33):
Yeah?
Speaker 3 (29:33):
You should? Should it be later?
Speaker 4 (29:35):
Yes?
Speaker 3 (29:35):
We were all right, We.
Speaker 4 (29:36):
Were all right. Yeah, I don't know what when did
your school start in high school? Six?
Speaker 3 (29:40):
Seven, seven something?
Speaker 4 (29:41):
Yeah, yeah, we were like seven twenty. No, that's biologically
backwards where we've totally had it wrong. So yeah, as
we kid our teen years, we do have this delay
and we really should be sleeping in later. And traditionally,
at least in the US, elementary schools start later, middle
(30:02):
schools a little earlier, high schools even earlier. And thankfully
Luis and Seattle and some parts of the country, including Minnesota,
have started flipping it back the other way. Wow, So
now high schools are starting later, and some elementary schools earlier,
and that's way more in tune with biology and the Yeah,
the consequences you think about for teens who are still growing,
(30:25):
their brains are still developing. You're cutting off, you know,
really critical sleep, especially, you know, curtailing the sleep to yeah,
a shorter time. You're you're losing that ram sleep that's
so critical for memory, for learning, for behavior. It's yeah,
it's it's pretty wild when you look at all the
(30:47):
potential ramifications.
Speaker 3 (30:51):
More to come on health stuff.
Speaker 4 (30:57):
I want to just.
Speaker 1 (30:58):
Jump back to something you mentioned earlier about the timing
of meals. If you're working at night, can you just
dig into a little bit deeper, How does meal timing
influence our circadian rhythm?
Speaker 4 (31:10):
Yeah, this is relevant for all of us, whether or
not we're a shift worker. There's another whole line of
research coming out finding that the later we eat, in particular,
the more havoc we're wreaking on our circadian rhythms and
our metabolic systems. Right, we evolved to eat during day
(31:31):
white hours. We weren't going to be going out foraging
in the dark. That wasn't safe. So now you know,
we have access to food all the time and a
lot of us. You know, it's a natural habit that
we're you know, having a late night snack before bed.
But the research shows that our bodies are more primed
(31:52):
to handle those incoming calories earlier in the day. Around
brunch time actually seems to be when our body are
best able to deal with food, in particular hobby food.
Speaker 1 (32:06):
So this is why brunch is awesome. Basically, we acceptation
all the time, and they are a happy.
Speaker 4 (32:14):
Hour for dinner. I mean, early dinner is good and
happy hour prices are better, so you know when when
they're too.
Speaker 1 (32:20):
So actually, speaking of happy hour, I just want to
I want to kind of dig into this because we
know Americans love their wine and their coffee. According to
the latest poll, eighty five percent of US adults consume
twelve ounces of caffeine a day, and gallop poles show
that fifty four percent of Americans drink alcohol. And we
(32:41):
know this rets havoc on our circadian rhythms because one
is a stimulant, the caffeine, and the other one actually
negatively impacts our sleep cycles. So how can so, speaking
to the Americans listening, I mean, what do you think
are some just practical ways that people can still enjoy
their coffee or their wine without wrecking their internal clocks.
Speaker 4 (33:04):
Yeah, to minimize the damage. I'm trying to I'm trying
to make these these part of my life as well,
because I yeah, I love both at both ends of
the day. So for the coffee, the earlier the better,
I mean, well to a point, there is some research
suggesting that if you actually wait an hour hour and
a half after waking in the morning, that might be
(33:26):
better before you put caffeine in your system because you're
letting your body's cortisol and its hormone to do its
thing without interfering with that. That said, beyond that point,
earlier in the days better less is better because it
takes several hours for your body to break down that caffeine.
I think it's one of I want to say, five
(33:47):
or six hours half life. So that means after five
or six hours, you still have half the caffeine that
you can seem still in your system, messing with a
denizine and all these things that I get into in
the book that is interfering with your sleep. So yeah,
I cut off right now around by noon usually by
allowing I try to limit myself to one or two
(34:09):
cups to end up being somewhat big. Sometimes I'm really
trying to get to just one cup. I'm really trying.
Speaker 3 (34:17):
No, no afternoon cup, Like no.
Speaker 4 (34:19):
Stopped doing my afternoon coffee. Yeah, I know, but there
are alternatives. There's a little Pascibo effect here too. But
the science is strong that if you get outdoors and
get some blue white that could actually be more powerful
a stimulant than that cup of afternoon coffee.
Speaker 3 (34:39):
So that's it's But it's warm and delicious.
Speaker 4 (34:43):
This kind of year. This is the dark, cold, dreary
days in Seattle. I know, I know.
Speaker 3 (34:47):
Oh it's perfect, it's exactly. I mean, you could.
Speaker 1 (34:51):
Decaf probably does less d CAF does less harm because
there's significantly less.
Speaker 4 (34:56):
You could do a cup of decaf in the afternoon. Yes, yes,
there's a little a caffeine, but it is a lot,
it's significantly yes. And a cup of tea, hot tea,
herbal tea also an option.
Speaker 1 (35:07):
Yes, herbal tea without caffeine, because black tea actually contains
a lot of caffeine in it. Compared in terms of caffeine,
DCAF is really the lowest, and then below that is
herbal tea. But the hierarchy goes. Because I did research
on this, higergarde goes regular coffee, black tea, green tea, decaf,
(35:28):
herbal tea down to zero.
Speaker 4 (35:30):
So thank you for that research. Okay, good to know.
Yeah I have on occasion, I'll do a green tea
in the afternoon hopefully. Yeah, that's not too.
Speaker 1 (35:39):
So we need to have like little circadian police going around,
like don't you think you've had it enough?
Speaker 4 (35:45):
Ma'am?
Speaker 1 (35:46):
Like I'm gonna have to cut you off from that
cup of coffee.
Speaker 4 (35:50):
You know. We require the nutritional facts right on things.
There should be like a little clock on the back
of everything on the menu and be like, oh yeah
at this hour depending on your chronotype, and yeah, this
streak may keep you up all night.
Speaker 2 (36:06):
What are other steps that are simple that we can
take outside of the coffee and wine stuff, Like, what
are other things we can do practical things to get
back on our circadian rhythms.
Speaker 4 (36:17):
Yeah, so I kind of highlighted what I call the
three c's, the three core clock rolls, and what I mean,
we've all talked. We've talked about all of them to
some extent, but I'll lay them out here. So the
first is contrast, so that is really getting at that
bright day, dark night, just trying to infuse as much
(36:37):
light during your day as possible, in particular in the
morning you can get out for a fifteen minute walk
in the morning or at least be right, you know,
close to a window that is going to go fire.
And then at night that least three hours before bed,
really cut the lights, especially in the overhead lights that
have you know, blue wavelengths in particular those bright white lights.
(36:59):
Cut out table lamps are great. I have electric candles
around my apartment, those kinds of things that try to
tone things down. So contrast, second thing is to consolidate
your meal times. So again eating late is particularly bad,
but there's interesting signs showing that the shorter the period
(37:21):
of time that you're consuming calories during the day, the
potentially the better for your overall health. So yeah, really
trying to scrunch in those hours that you're eating. And
then finally consistency. There's also research suggesting that going to
bed and getting up at a consistent time seven days
(37:42):
a week might be more important than how many hours
you sleep, you know, to a point, so getting seven,
six or seven hours at the right time may provide
better sleep than eight or nine hours at the wrong time,
So again that's based on your own biology. But sleeping
and sync with your with your ranithms is really key,
(38:04):
So contrast consolidate consistency.
Speaker 1 (38:08):
I love that the Three Seas as in honor of
sort of piggybacking off of the Three Seeds, though, can
we just take a minute to talk about daylight savings
and how it clearly gets in the way of the
Three Seas? And there's so much published data about how
(38:30):
daylight savings increases the risk of accidents, heart issues, increase
stress mood. Several organizations, including the American Academy of Sleep Medicine,
have endorsed supporting a permanent standard time. Why why are
we clinging so tightly to daylight saving time when there's
(38:52):
so much evidence that shifting our clocks twice a year
causes health harms.
Speaker 4 (38:59):
So there are a lot of business interests that benefit
from having it light later. You think about golf courses.
In my research for the book, I learned about candy companies.
You know, we're behind this too, because it might benefit
the kids on the Halloween night to have more daylight
and they get more candy, barbecue companies. I mean, there
(39:21):
are a lot of business interests here that benefit from that.
But then also, at least until recent years, you ask
people and I still ask my friends, you know, what
would you prefer, and they prefer a light later in
the day. And I think a lot of this comes
back to, again the subtleness by which circadian disruption affects us.
(39:45):
So it's doing this kind of behind the scenes where
we may not necessarily know what's happening to our bodies
and why we're feeling a certain way. So, yeah, when
we're off work, it's great to have a little bit
more light. Which even if we had daylight saving time
through the winter, it's going to still be dark if
you're living north, like the day the days to short period.
(40:05):
But yeah, we like that light later, but our biology
really is wanting that light early in the day to
reset our clocks, to get us to keep us in tune.
So I think there's a couple reasons in which it's
been really hard to push forward with daylight saving time.
(40:26):
And yeah, the scientists are unanimous in that, well maybe
I shouldn't say unanimous, but close to supporting the idea
of permanent standard time, because that is what our biology
really is craving.
Speaker 1 (40:42):
Yeah, I'm going to throw a huge party when that changes.
I'm just going to be so happy.
Speaker 4 (40:50):
I will say that there are some out there who
think the status quote of flipping back and forth might
still be the best answer, because yeah, there are cosequences
to foot flopping. But really, if you step back, what
is the major issue here? The major issue is our
schedules because it really doesn't matter what the clock on
the wall says. If we can live our own lives
(41:10):
as our biology tells us too, by the sun, it
doesn't really matter. So, you know, I think the idea
of flexing start times, you know, for jobs which COVID
helped us get a little more towards right es, letting
and workers work when they're most primed to work and
you're going to get more productivity out of them anyway
(41:31):
at those hours. That is one way around this. And
thinking about school start times again, you know, all these things.
The reasons in which this matters I think shouldn't be
lost from that conversation.
Speaker 2 (41:45):
How do you feel about health data trackers like the
whoop or the or a ring like are those actually helpful?
Speaker 3 (41:51):
Uh?
Speaker 4 (41:52):
Yes, I know it would be my answer to that
as well. I found it helpful over a period of time,
I wore a fitbit and I really paid attention to
my sleep, and I could see patterns for myself, right,
I mean these none of these are super accurate, and
they might also make you a little hyper focused, and
(42:13):
that can cause its own harm. But I really found
it helpful to see my sleep in the morning and
take note of when did I stop eating, did I
drink alcohol? How much caffeine did I have? You know,
those factors. I really truly did see differences pretty profound
when I, you know, follow the three c's and when
(42:34):
I didn't. And of course we're going to let ourselves
break rolls here and there, right, I mean, we have
to have a life, we have to have our lady's
night out or.
Speaker 3 (42:42):
Whatever it might be.
Speaker 4 (42:43):
So to a point, you know, following those really did
seem to make a difference for me. So I think
it's helpful personally if you you know, trying to see
how your body reacts to things, because we're all different.
You know, somebody could have three four cups of coffee
and not be as impacted as another person, and with
just one cup of coffee.
Speaker 1 (43:01):
For example, we ask every guest that comes on, what
does being healthy mean to you? And what do you
personally do to stay healthy? And I'm now knowing you
know everything, you know, I really am curious about your answer.
Speaker 4 (43:17):
Yeah, well, I mean, obviously we're thinking circadian here. I
have tried to change quite a few things actually since
reporting this book. And like I said, you know, I
find myself feeling a lot better if I get that
light during the day, if I get up and get
myself outside and see the sun, and try to continue
(43:39):
to get little doses of one of my sources called
circadian snacks throughout the day, and you know, and I think,
I mean, it goes beyond circadian, right, Like that is
just kind of reconnecting with nature and with the rhythms.
And then at night, the coziness factor comes into play too,
with turning down those lights and and just having candlelight
(44:01):
around dim warm lights. That really has made a difference
for me and sleep. I mean, I've always known it's important,
We're told is important, but really thinking about how much better,
how much more productive I am during the day, my
better moods once I've had that quality sleep which again
is tied very much to all these other things, keeping
(44:22):
keeping my clocks in two. So so yeah, I think
that's for me living clockwise.
Speaker 1 (44:30):
As I say, oh, I love the sound like, oh
this is my clock lifestyle, you know, like clockwise.
Speaker 3 (44:39):
It's great.
Speaker 2 (44:40):
Yeah, Lynn, thank you so much for joining us. It's honestly,
it's been a pleasure talking to.
Speaker 4 (44:44):
You, real pleasure talking to you.
Speaker 1 (44:46):
Thank you, and thank you so much for writing the book.
It was such a pleasure to read. And I think
it's such a great like PSA for you know, sunlight
is free, so you don't need a prescription. You know,
it's it's accessible to everyone. We all get access to it.
So I I just really appreciate the work you've done.
Speaker 4 (45:08):
Thank you, Oh, thank you very much. Be Quackwise.
Speaker 1 (45:19):
Health Stuff is a production of iHeart Podcasts. The show
is hosted by Me, doctor Preanko Wally, and Harrikondobolu. Producers
are Rebecca Eisenberg, Jenna Cagel, Christina Loranger, Maya Howard, and
Katrina Norvel. Our researcher is Maria Tremarki and our intern
is Katia Zobel Leayala. To send us a question, you
(45:40):
can email us a voice memo at health Stuff Podcast
at gmail dot com. Thanks so much for listening.
This podcast is for information purposes only and should not
be considered professional medical advice.
Speaker 2 (00:05):
Oh I like to sleep in late and sleep early.
Is there a chronotype for that? Or am I just depressed?
What are those consequences?
Speaker 3 (00:18):
Sure?
Speaker 1 (00:22):
Did you know about all of these impacts when you
decided to live in a bunker, Because that is wild.
Speaker 4 (00:33):
Sleeping and sync with your with your ranithms is really key.
So contrast, consolidate, consistency.
Speaker 1 (00:41):
I love that the three c's.
Speaker 3 (00:47):
I'm hurry, condibolu, I'm doctor pre uncle Wally, And this
is health stuff.
Speaker 1 (00:53):
Hi everyone, and welcome back to health Stuff. Today's conversation
is with science journalists, statistician and off Lind Peoples. Her
work shines a light on how our bodies depend on
well aligned circadian rhythms and what happens when that rhythm
gets disrupted. To study this firsthand, she spent ten days
living fifty feet underground in a Cold War era bunker
(01:17):
with no daylight and no clocks. It's wild. We get
into what she learned, how light pollution affects all of us,
and the practical ways you can support your own light
exposure and circadian rhythm. We also talk about our new book,
The Inner Clock, Living in Sync with our Circadian Rhythms.
We hope you enjoy the conversation.
Speaker 3 (01:37):
Lind Peoples, thank you for joining us on health stuff.
Speaker 2 (01:42):
I cannot wait to get into your research and all that,
but before we get there, you got to explain the
basics to us. What is a circadian rhythm and how
does it affect a human being?
Speaker 4 (01:55):
Sure, well, thank you so much for having me on.
So a cicccadian rhythm is actually, well, it's a bit
of a misnomer. It's rhythms. So our bodies are filled
with these biological clocks, and in fact, we have like
trillions of them. Every nearly every cell of our body
has one. We evolve with them to coordinate our bodies
(02:16):
so we're doing the right things at the right time.
So we've got clocks everywhere from our nose to our toes,
sculder muscle, our organs. They all need to be in
sync with each other and with the sun. So we
evolved on a twenty four hour rotating plant. And because
(02:37):
of the differences, you know, based on time of day
light dark, our bodies in a coordination with each other.
Our bodies are prime to do the right things at
the right times. So whether that's digest food or be
at our strongest or fend off you know, invading pathogens,
all these things are optimized because we can't do everything
twenty four to seven, so we kind of allotted times
(02:59):
for certain things. When modern life throws wrenches in that clockworks,
which it does on a regular we lose the beat
and that has profound consequences.
Speaker 3 (03:10):
What are those consequences?
Speaker 1 (03:12):
Sure?
Speaker 4 (03:15):
I mean, we all know, you know, the problems of
sleep deprivation. Right, We're having trouble falling asleep. So that's
the first thing that people usually associate with circadian rhythm,
but that is just the tip of the iceberg. So
we're talking about reduced productivity. We're talking about increased risk
of just getting sick acutely and then long term, if
(03:37):
our circadian rhythms are off for an extended period of time,
research is finding that we have increased risks of things
like metabolic disorders, potentially of cancer. So it's everything from
kind of our moods, you know, whether we're feeling good
about ourselves, whether we're being productive, whether we're at our
peak performance, whether we're sleeping well, and whether we're healthy.
(04:01):
All these things have implications with our circadian rhythms.
Speaker 1 (04:06):
So I mean, you're talking about major, major aspects of
people's health well being. I really want to ask you,
I mean, did you know about all of these impacts
when you decided to live in a bunker, because that
is wild, Like.
Speaker 4 (04:25):
What made you want to do that? I am a
little crazy. Yeah, that was early on in my reporting
for this book. I'd been reading about historical experiments in
which other people had done similar or worse and are better,
depending on how you define it, And I was just
(04:45):
curious for myself, you know, how did my interclocks really
really tick and what would it feel like to really
let them go? Bunkers, you know, go off on their own.
As I've been learning, if we don't keep sync to
the sun, if we don't see regular light during the
day darkness at night, we weren't giving our in our
clocks those cues of the count on to say and sink.
(05:06):
Then they essentially free run. And some of us run different,
you know, a little longer, a little shorter than others,
which is associated with whether we are night owls or
early birds. And so I kind of personally I was
curious how did my clocks tick and then how would
it feel to truly become desynchronized, for my circadian rhythms
(05:28):
to be disrupted? So it was sort of yeah, a
little self inflicting pain and what kind of I mean.
Speaker 1 (05:35):
Like, what kind of review do you leave on the
Airbnb for that?
Speaker 4 (05:38):
Like, oh my gosh, it was weird.
Speaker 3 (05:45):
I did.
Speaker 4 (05:47):
I did splurge. So this was no ordinary Airbnb bunker.
So I wasn't really into a hole in the ground. Really,
this was, oh my gosh. The guy had souped this
Airbnb up. He bought from the government, this old Cold
War era bunker. You know, it was filled with like
water whatever they had sealed it up after the Cold War,
and he souped it up. I mean we're talking massive kitchen,
(06:11):
two refrigerators, a floating bed, a b day. I mean,
we have a whole day. I mean, we love those days.
So yeah, so don't feel she sorry for me, but yes,
I did. I did go a little crazy. I was
certainly feeling off within you know, a few days without
any sense of time.
Speaker 3 (06:32):
Was it essentially a basement apartment?
Speaker 4 (06:34):
Then it sounds like yes, So that's that's kind of
the point, is you know, I went to an extreme here, right,
I mean I had no windows, no clocks, no other
people around. But every day a good proportion of the
population is doing nearly the same to their bodies, right,
I mean, maybe a little more daylight, maybe they have
(06:57):
a clock on the wall or more likely on their wrist,
but they are also confusing their clocks and there are consequences.
Speaker 2 (07:05):
I mean, I find this very interesting. Also because you're
a sea adlite. I'm a former sea Adlite. We don't
get as much sun as we probably should, especially certain
times of the year.
Speaker 3 (07:15):
How does that affect.
Speaker 2 (07:17):
The Northwest, for example, like places that don't get as
much light for certain parts of the year. Is that
the reason for the greater rate of depression?
Speaker 4 (07:25):
That is what scientists think absolutely so seasonal effective disorder,
other know, other means of depression. They do think that
having less light and having these extreme changes in the
day links and that's really kind of a lot of
what it comes down to. The further you go north,
the further you go south from the equator, those shifts
(07:48):
in how many hours of light we get during the
day really change, and they change rapidly. I actually spoke
with a sleep researcher and clinician in Alaska, and he
was saying that he sees a lot more patience with
sleep troubles with depression during the transition months. In the
fall early fall day length is shrinking rapidly and that's
(08:12):
when he sees the most people suffering from related health
issues with that mental health issues primarily, and in the
spring too. Of course. You know, our days are getting longer,
which is great. We're all excited for those longer hours
of daylight, but that really confuses our systems, you know,
it's hard for them to keep up. We evolved at
(08:32):
the equator where there was twelve hours a light and
twelve hours are dark.
Speaker 1 (08:37):
And you mentioned seasonal effective disorder. Five percent of Americans
suffer from seasonal effective disorder. Can you explain what neuropsin
and molinopsin are and why they matter, especially for people
struggling with seasonal effective depression.
Speaker 4 (08:54):
Yeah, so there is some really cool research that's been
coming on for what's been decades now. By really getting
more fune tuned, that's helping us understand that, you know,
the normal indoor lights we have are really tuned to
our visual system and they rely heavily on green wavelengths
of light. That's really what our visual system needs to
be able to see the world around us. But now
(09:16):
that we understand that, there's this other photoreceptor in our
eyes that is picking up on light as well, and
it's sending that information to this central clock in our brain.
But the way it interprets that same light information is
very differently, and it's really relying more on blue wavelengths
of light to tell that it's daytime. There's midday sun,
(09:39):
it's a full spectrum, but it is heavily concentrated with blue,
So that's what's telling us it's a daytime and then
at night it's the opposite. You see blue light, our
bodies confused, it thinks it's still daytime and that can
throw things off. So now that we understand that and
that's this melanopsin pigment that's picking up on that information,
now we're finding and that you know, you've probably heard
(10:01):
about happy lamps or you know, these sun lamps that
help with seasonal effective disorder. So getting enough of that light,
even if it's not fully natural in the winter, you know,
if the sun doesn't come up till really late, if
you're in the high latitudes and sitting in front of
one of these lamps that is putting out a lot
(10:21):
of the blue light can help decrease some of those
symptoms of seasonal effective disorder because it's helping our clocks
get back and sink and see that it is daytime.
Speaker 2 (10:31):
I mean knowing the impact light then does have on
your moods, on your sleep. What happens if you're blind
or visually impaired, Yeah.
Speaker 4 (10:39):
And this this really depends. So I talked to people
with both blindness that was a result of actually losing
their eyes. So one man I spoke with was in
a fire works accident and truly lost his eyes. And
then there's others that you know, become blind for different reasons.
And so what really depends on if you still have
(11:01):
those photo receptors picking up the light, the photoreceptors that
are communicating to your clock, so they could still be
functioning even if your visual system isn't necessarily functioning. Right,
But the man I spoke with that lost his eyes,
you know, he lost all of it, so he also
lost that connection between you know, that light information and
(11:21):
the circadian clock. So he found himself truly just drifting.
You know, his family was living on a twenty four
hour day, but his body was just you know, every
few days he would kind of cycle around sort of
like you know, being extremely jetlaged, traveling around the world constantly,
and so he you know, he found some remedies that
helped kind of rain in his clocks a little bit.
(11:43):
Primarily the use of melatonin strategically helped him out. But yeah,
it's a it's definitely a big problem for those people, and.
Speaker 1 (11:51):
You know, from a health perspective, just want to add, like,
for example, if people have cataracts, this is one of
the reasons that it's beneficial to get those cataracts place
so that you can actually get exposure to more blue
light because the cataract itself is almost like a blockage
of allowing that blue light to enter your eye.
Speaker 4 (12:10):
Yeah. I found that so fascinating, Right, it's yellowing the eye,
which is restricting the blue light that gets in there.
And they think scientists think this is one of the
reasons as we get older that it's harder and harder
for us to keep our circading rhythms and sync because
we're not getting that necessary input. And they're also there's
studies showing that cataract surgery may decrease the risk of Alzheimer's,
(12:34):
and that opens up in other can of worms. But
we're finding connections kind of both for bidirectional connections between
circading rhythm disruption and the development of Alzheimer's disease and
the progression of it.
Speaker 3 (12:46):
Can you explain the concept of chronotypes to us? Sure?
Speaker 4 (12:49):
So we mostly hear about night owls, early birds. You know,
we might categorize ourselves in one of those camps. So
scientifically the scientists refer to chronotypes, and it's really this
full spectrum. Everybody falls somewhere on this curve in which
your body is more inclined to go to sleep at
(13:10):
an earlier hour, get up at an earlier hour everywhere,
from people that can't stay awake past maybe six pm.
I spoke with some of these people and those that
can't fall asleep before five am. You know, there really
is a wide breadth of chronotypes across the population. And
there's some interesting theories on why that might be. Why evolutionarily,
(13:34):
at help that we didn't all go to bed at
the same time. There was always somebody awake to watch
out for the village right to see if there were
any intruders, any bears approaching. So it's interesting how we
all were all a little different. We all tick a
little differently, and that raises a lot of issues when
everybody is required to be at school, we're at work
at the same early early morning.
Speaker 1 (13:56):
Time, we're going to take a sh or break stay
with us. So many questions around this, like, you know,
are we born with the particular chronotype and that's the
chronotype we have for life or can we change our chronotype?
Can this change over time, because there's huge implications to.
Speaker 4 (14:19):
This and what you're alluding to one hundred percent that
was a really good question, and we do so. We
are biologically programmed with a certain chronotype. However, it does
change throughout our lives. So when we're born, we don't
have a lot of rhythm, as parents can attest to. You know,
we're who are sleeping at all hours in a week,
(14:42):
crying at all hours. But as we get older, young
children tend to be slightly earlier chronotypes, and then as
they hit the teen years adolescence, they will naturally on
average delay their inner clocks, so their inter clocks will
get a little later they'll be a little more night
owl ish, and then middle age we kind of swing
(15:07):
back a little bit again. And there's some debate, but
as we get older, we tend to you know, get
a little earlier again. But that's also yeah, there's been
some evidence kind of going a few different directions there,
but it really comes down to it changes throughout our
lives and as we get older. What the science is
(15:29):
pretty clear about is it is harder for us to
keep rhythm. That you can think of circadian rhythms as
having this amplitude right this you know, valleys and peaks
of strength that telling our body to do the right
things at the right times again, but that kind of
flattens out as we get older. It's harder for us
to get the cues to communicate to our circadian rhythms,
(15:52):
and also that part of our brain is perhaps not
functioning quite as well, which is why as we get
older it's really important try to get even more of
those cues, or just be more diligent about getting light
during the day, getting darknes sun night, and we can
get into some of those things.
Speaker 2 (16:08):
What would life look like if we actually lived as
a society based on circadian rhythms is also a good question.
Speaker 4 (16:16):
I mean, it's you know, it might be a little
far fetched to think that we're all going to go,
you know, camp out every night again. Dream let's man, Dylan,
we can do it, oh in my dream world. Yes. However,
I think there's a balance. I think society is quote
(16:37):
unquote evolved to this twenty four to seven you know
world global economy in which we have Amazon deliveries that'll
come to us in four hours by four am. You know,
there's twenty four seven supermarkets and gyms and everything is
open around the clock, and that all that means a
lot more night shift workers are needed, right to keep
(16:59):
these things functioning. So there are a lot of ways
in which modern society has really made it difficult. But
I think, you know a few of those things are
quote unquote optional. Right, We could consider as a society
trying to you know, shift back a little bit, and
as far as our architecture goes, we could bring more
(17:20):
light into our spaces. We can think about things like
urban plan and architecture and different means in which we
can Maybe we're not going to be sleeping out in tents,
but maybe we can try to cut down the amount
of light that we pump out at night from our
street lamps, from our billboards. We can think about during
the day bringing more light into our spaces to try
(17:42):
to reinfuse some of that contrast that we evolved with you.
Speaker 1 (17:45):
You're hitting on such an important point, a rent, like
our society is driving this right, Like I can't show
up tomorrow and tell like my patients like sorry, I'm
not coming in today. My chronotype is changing because like
you know, like it's just part of life, like peace
to you, you know. So how how can someone sort
of figure out what is their true chronotype and then
(18:07):
figure out like what kind of job or work schedule
is the best fit for them for that season.
Speaker 4 (18:14):
Yeah, this is also really interesting. I talk to a
lot of people who were successful in doing this, But
step back, so as far as identifying your own chronotype,
this can be difficult because most of us, as we're
you know, at least most adults or even kids I
guess that are forced to get up for school, we've
sort of masked our natural chronotype because we're forced to
(18:37):
follow a certain schedule. So really, the only way to
tell what your chronotype is is to go on vacation,
a long vacation. Go somewhere where you don't have any obligations,
where you can go to bed when your body is
telling you to get up when your body is telling
you to and take note of that and then see
(19:00):
what kind of wiggle room you have in your schedule
to try to accommodate that.
Speaker 3 (19:06):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (19:06):
I spoke with a couple people who have you know,
self identified as extreme on one end or another, an
extreme early bird in an extreme night owl, and this
one woman an extreme night owl. She was thrilled she
had found this job right before we spoke, in which
she could work on Australia time from the Mideast. So
(19:30):
she's a veterinary pathologist and she was reading, you know,
digitally cases that came in from Australia throughout the night
and that was perfect for her and her health improved.
She was feeling so much better. Right. So it's you know,
there's you know, more night shift jobs probably than there
are extreme night owls that truly fit those jobs. But
if we can help, you know, direct and match people
(19:52):
to those maybe would take off some of the weight
that's on the rest.
Speaker 2 (19:57):
It's interesting because you said, like vacation help you determine
what kind of chronotype you have. I'm a stand up comedian,
so my job is essentially a vacation every day. So
that being said, I I like to sleep in late
and sleep early. Is there a chronotype for that? Or
(20:17):
am I just depressed?
Speaker 3 (20:21):
Yeah?
Speaker 4 (20:23):
You are of your own extreme. We're going to create
another night. Are stand up gigs like late at night?
Speaker 2 (20:35):
Not if you only take the early shows that.
Speaker 3 (20:41):
I like to go up early and get home at
a reasonable hour.
Speaker 4 (20:44):
I see, Okay, especially as.
Speaker 2 (20:47):
I've gotten older, Like the idea of a three am
gig is not happening.
Speaker 4 (20:51):
I hear you. There's no way I can handle that. Well,
I'm glad you found a job that fits your chronotype.
Speaker 3 (20:56):
Well, thank you.
Speaker 1 (20:57):
Let's let's circle back a little bit to something you
alluded to. So, first of all, I mean, it's so clear,
like we human beings, we need access to sunlight in
order to be well. I think this should be a
basic human right, the access to light. But clearly you've
pointed out there are clear inequities. Right For example, like
(21:20):
in New York City, these high rises that are built
up generally are accessible to the ultra wealthy. They are
getting access to abundant amounts of natural daylight, and ironically,
the high rises themselves are casting shadows generally on lower
income communities that are literally in the dark. You know,
(21:40):
this is the sort of like light inequity. So, I mean,
what changes need to be made, either policy wise or
through urban designs, so we can make our societies, our
cities more equitable from a light perspective.
Speaker 4 (21:54):
Yeah, I really this is an area I feel quite
passionate about, just like you think about all the ways
in which certain populations are getting hit the hard ist
with these things. They're also more likely to be shift workers, right,
these same people that are basically living in the shadows
in these basement apartments and the shadows of these skyscrapers,
and they're going to work potentially in a warehouse, right,
(22:16):
They're less likely to have a corner office with windows.
So I think just awareness, It starts with awareness once
people realize that this inequity exists. I mean, people probably
don't realize that they're not happy with the fact that
they can't see daylight, but to understand what's actually happening
(22:36):
to their biology as well. So I think recognizing that
and then working with ye lighting designers, architects, urban planners.
There are more and more products out there that are
mimicking daylight that are getting a little bit closer. You know,
nothing can be the real thing, but we're finding ways
in which we can have certain wavelengths that full spectrum,
(22:58):
particularly that blue coming out at a decent intensity during
the day from a fixture. So even if they don't
have access to windows, there's there is a light that
it's telling their body that it is daytime. So if
we can get those into these spaces and then you know,
the easier solution is at night, like do we need
(23:18):
these floodlights in street lights shining into people's bedroom windows.
That's what it really appalled me when I was walking
around these social housing complexes where you know, I get
it right, people feel safer. Perhaps if there's a lot
of light studies show it's a little equivocal, like there's
there's some studies that show that more light just means
(23:39):
more shadows for people for criminals to hide in. You know,
that not always going to make a space safer. But
if we could direct those lights, you know, only to
the ground, keep them from shining in people's windows, perhaps
provide blackout shades to people, just educate them about the
importance of darkness at night light during the day. I
(24:01):
think on a lot of different levels here we could,
you know, have some impact in lesson the consequences.
Speaker 2 (24:10):
That's fascinating just how race and class intersect with light
and health. Are there cultures that do that do it
better in terms of circadian rhythms than ours? Like I
think about you know, during COVID, when so many of
us were working at home, I would imagine that was
better for circadian rhythms, just because we're the work just
(24:33):
had to get done. You wake up, maybe you still
have to wake up at nine, but you're not waking
up at six or seven necessarily to take a train
or travel to work. You're getting a little bit more sleep,
maybe fitting what you naturally would do, and you can
sleep at a more reasonable hour. Like are there cultures
that do it better? And was that COVID period healthier
(24:53):
for us in terms of circadian rhythms?
Speaker 4 (24:55):
I think in some ways yes, in some ways no,
So I think I think it did allow a lot
of people to live more in tune with their biology
as you as you mentioned, I also think it really
depended where people lived right and where their home office was.
There were a lot of people that had to set
up a home office in a in a basement or
(25:18):
a closet even and you know, if they had been
commuting by foot, by bike, even driving every morning, they
no longer had that queue, that predictable queue for their
bodies of morning in daytime. But then on the other hand,
a lot more people had the freedom, you know, like
you mentioned again, to wake up according to their inner clocks,
(25:40):
but also maybe to go out for a walk more
often or you know, be outdoors. So it varied a lot.
I think, you know, I'm a whole I think maybe
there were more people that benefited. And then outside of that, yeah,
there are populations or communities that naturally live more in
sync with the sun, and the Amish come to mind.
(26:03):
There were studies looking at how they live. You know, Yeah,
they have less electricity, so that's going to naturally cut
down on the light at night, and they spend more
time outdoors and they're you know, a lot of their
work is more traditional outdoor work on you know, I
think they're just more naturally getting that light. I can't
(26:24):
remember what the numbers were, but they actually had some
of these people where uh sun or of light monitors,
and they got many fold as I recalled, moral light
during the day than the average American.
Speaker 3 (26:37):
Wow.
Speaker 1 (26:38):
Yeah, it sort of gives a new meaning to the
phrase sun salutation and yoga practice, right, Like you know,
the World Health Organization actually labeled shift work as a
carcinogen and yeah, And so the question I have is, then,
shouldn't the workplace have somewhat of a moral responsibility to
(26:59):
either all for benefits that minimize harm? Should Amazon be
providing light boxes to the nighttime shift workers? Like who
is responsible? Then it's a really good question.
Speaker 4 (27:15):
I think this needs to be talked about more personally.
From what I learned, the evidence just kind of keeps
piling up about the consequences of shift work, and there's
a lot of varieties to this. Of course, there's rotating
shift work, in which some people just keep having a
different schedule the time. There are the rare shift worker
(27:38):
out there who is able to completely flip their entire
lives in which they might work at night, but even
on their off days, they're able to keep it a
night's schedule, so at least their body has consistency of
associating when during the day they're sleeping and when they're awake,
and that cuts down on the consequences. But yeah, I
(28:01):
think we need to be thinking about this. We need
to be The science is helping point to some remedies
to some extent that can diminish some of the consequences. So,
for example, there was research out of Harvard that showed
even if you're working at night, especially if you're one
of those who's going to go back onto a day's
schedule and you're off days to sync up with your family,
(28:23):
then consolidating the hours in which you're consuming calories or
eating to still the daylight hours, so you might be
awake at night working but tried not to eat during
that shift. That could reduce the risks of metabolic disease
that we have now found as associated with shift work.
So earlier little things like that. And you mentioned the
(28:44):
light boxes, so you know, depending on your schedule, there's
different rules about you know, when you should get light
when you shouldn't, how and how do we balance alertness
versus not screwing up your circadian rhythms. It gets complicated,
but again as a sign it's builds. We have more
and more ideas in which we're able to help support
them in a very unnatural situation.
Speaker 2 (29:08):
Now, I remember being a kid and always being so
upset that school was so early. That oh, yes, when
I was in especially when I was in high school. Right,
And now, all of a sudden, you know, I'm just
I've discovered, you know, from doing this research, that there's
something called sleep phase delay, and so it's normal for
teenagers to want to sleep in later.
Speaker 3 (29:30):
So that being said, was I right? Was school too early?
Speaker 4 (29:33):
Yeah?
Speaker 3 (29:33):
You should? Should it be later?
Speaker 4 (29:35):
Yes?
Speaker 3 (29:35):
We were all right, We.
Speaker 4 (29:36):
Were all right. Yeah, I don't know what when did
your school start in high school? Six?
Speaker 3 (29:40):
Seven, seven something?
Speaker 4 (29:41):
Yeah, yeah, we were like seven twenty. No, that's biologically
backwards where we've totally had it wrong. So yeah, as
we kid our teen years, we do have this delay
and we really should be sleeping in later. And traditionally,
at least in the US, elementary schools start later, middle
(30:02):
schools a little earlier, high schools even earlier. And thankfully
Luis and Seattle and some parts of the country, including Minnesota,
have started flipping it back the other way. Wow, So
now high schools are starting later, and some elementary schools earlier,
and that's way more in tune with biology and the Yeah,
the consequences you think about for teens who are still growing,
(30:25):
their brains are still developing. You're cutting off, you know,
really critical sleep, especially, you know, curtailing the sleep to yeah,
a shorter time. You're you're losing that ram sleep that's
so critical for memory, for learning, for behavior. It's yeah,
it's it's pretty wild when you look at all the
(30:47):
potential ramifications.
Speaker 3 (30:51):
More to come on health stuff.
Speaker 4 (30:57):
I want to just.
Speaker 1 (30:58):
Jump back to something you mentioned earlier about the timing
of meals. If you're working at night, can you just
dig into a little bit deeper, How does meal timing
influence our circadian rhythm?
Speaker 4 (31:10):
Yeah, this is relevant for all of us, whether or
not we're a shift worker. There's another whole line of
research coming out finding that the later we eat, in particular,
the more havoc we're wreaking on our circadian rhythms and
our metabolic systems. Right, we evolved to eat during day
(31:31):
white hours. We weren't going to be going out foraging
in the dark. That wasn't safe. So now you know,
we have access to food all the time and a
lot of us. You know, it's a natural habit that
we're you know, having a late night snack before bed.
But the research shows that our bodies are more primed
(31:52):
to handle those incoming calories earlier in the day. Around
brunch time actually seems to be when our body are
best able to deal with food, in particular hobby food.
Speaker 1 (32:06):
So this is why brunch is awesome. Basically, we acceptation
all the time, and they are a happy.
Speaker 4 (32:14):
Hour for dinner. I mean, early dinner is good and
happy hour prices are better, so you know when when
they're too.
Speaker 1 (32:20):
So actually, speaking of happy hour, I just want to
I want to kind of dig into this because we
know Americans love their wine and their coffee. According to
the latest poll, eighty five percent of US adults consume
twelve ounces of caffeine a day, and gallop poles show
that fifty four percent of Americans drink alcohol. And we
(32:41):
know this rets havoc on our circadian rhythms because one
is a stimulant, the caffeine, and the other one actually
negatively impacts our sleep cycles. So how can so, speaking
to the Americans listening, I mean, what do you think
are some just practical ways that people can still enjoy
their coffee or their wine without wrecking their internal clocks.
Speaker 4 (33:04):
Yeah, to minimize the damage. I'm trying to I'm trying
to make these these part of my life as well,
because I yeah, I love both at both ends of
the day. So for the coffee, the earlier the better,
I mean, well to a point, there is some research
suggesting that if you actually wait an hour hour and
a half after waking in the morning, that might be
(33:26):
better before you put caffeine in your system because you're
letting your body's cortisol and its hormone to do its
thing without interfering with that. That said, beyond that point,
earlier in the days better less is better because it
takes several hours for your body to break down that caffeine.
I think it's one of I want to say, five
(33:47):
or six hours half life. So that means after five
or six hours, you still have half the caffeine that
you can seem still in your system, messing with a
denizine and all these things that I get into in
the book that is interfering with your sleep. So yeah,
I cut off right now around by noon usually by
allowing I try to limit myself to one or two
(34:09):
cups to end up being somewhat big. Sometimes I'm really
trying to get to just one cup. I'm really trying.
Speaker 3 (34:17):
No, no afternoon cup, Like no.
Speaker 4 (34:19):
Stopped doing my afternoon coffee. Yeah, I know, but there
are alternatives. There's a little Pascibo effect here too. But
the science is strong that if you get outdoors and
get some blue white that could actually be more powerful
a stimulant than that cup of afternoon coffee.
Speaker 3 (34:39):
So that's it's But it's warm and delicious.
Speaker 4 (34:43):
This kind of year. This is the dark, cold, dreary
days in Seattle. I know, I know.
Speaker 3 (34:47):
Oh it's perfect, it's exactly. I mean, you could.
Speaker 1 (34:51):
Decaf probably does less d CAF does less harm because
there's significantly less.
Speaker 4 (34:56):
You could do a cup of decaf in the afternoon. Yes, yes,
there's a little a caffeine, but it is a lot,
it's significantly yes. And a cup of tea, hot tea,
herbal tea also an option.
Speaker 1 (35:07):
Yes, herbal tea without caffeine, because black tea actually contains
a lot of caffeine in it. Compared in terms of caffeine,
DCAF is really the lowest, and then below that is
herbal tea. But the hierarchy goes. Because I did research
on this, higergarde goes regular coffee, black tea, green tea, decaf,
(35:28):
herbal tea down to zero.
Speaker 4 (35:30):
So thank you for that research. Okay, good to know.
Yeah I have on occasion, I'll do a green tea
in the afternoon hopefully. Yeah, that's not too.
Speaker 1 (35:39):
So we need to have like little circadian police going around,
like don't you think you've had it enough?
Speaker 4 (35:45):
Ma'am?
Speaker 1 (35:46):
Like I'm gonna have to cut you off from that
cup of coffee.
Speaker 4 (35:50):
You know. We require the nutritional facts right on things.
There should be like a little clock on the back
of everything on the menu and be like, oh yeah
at this hour depending on your chronotype, and yeah, this
streak may keep you up all night.
Speaker 2 (36:06):
What are other steps that are simple that we can
take outside of the coffee and wine stuff, Like, what
are other things we can do practical things to get
back on our circadian rhythms.
Speaker 4 (36:17):
Yeah, so I kind of highlighted what I call the
three c's, the three core clock rolls, and what I mean,
we've all talked. We've talked about all of them to
some extent, but I'll lay them out here. So the
first is contrast, so that is really getting at that
bright day, dark night, just trying to infuse as much
(36:37):
light during your day as possible, in particular in the
morning you can get out for a fifteen minute walk
in the morning or at least be right, you know,
close to a window that is going to go fire.
And then at night that least three hours before bed,
really cut the lights, especially in the overhead lights that
have you know, blue wavelengths in particular those bright white lights.
(36:59):
Cut out table lamps are great. I have electric candles
around my apartment, those kinds of things that try to
tone things down. So contrast, second thing is to consolidate
your meal times. So again eating late is particularly bad,
but there's interesting signs showing that the shorter the period
(37:21):
of time that you're consuming calories during the day, the
potentially the better for your overall health. So yeah, really
trying to scrunch in those hours that you're eating. And
then finally consistency. There's also research suggesting that going to
bed and getting up at a consistent time seven days
(37:42):
a week might be more important than how many hours
you sleep, you know, to a point, so getting seven,
six or seven hours at the right time may provide
better sleep than eight or nine hours at the wrong time,
So again that's based on your own biology. But sleeping
and sync with your with your ranithms is really key,
(38:04):
So contrast consolidate consistency.
Speaker 1 (38:08):
I love that the Three Seas as in honor of
sort of piggybacking off of the Three Seeds, though, can
we just take a minute to talk about daylight savings
and how it clearly gets in the way of the
Three Seas? And there's so much published data about how
(38:30):
daylight savings increases the risk of accidents, heart issues, increase
stress mood. Several organizations, including the American Academy of Sleep Medicine,
have endorsed supporting a permanent standard time. Why why are
we clinging so tightly to daylight saving time when there's
(38:52):
so much evidence that shifting our clocks twice a year
causes health harms.
Speaker 4 (38:59):
So there are a lot of business interests that benefit
from having it light later. You think about golf courses.
In my research for the book, I learned about candy companies.
You know, we're behind this too, because it might benefit
the kids on the Halloween night to have more daylight
and they get more candy, barbecue companies. I mean, there
(39:21):
are a lot of business interests here that benefit from that.
But then also, at least until recent years, you ask
people and I still ask my friends, you know, what
would you prefer, and they prefer a light later in
the day. And I think a lot of this comes
back to, again the subtleness by which circadian disruption affects us.
(39:45):
So it's doing this kind of behind the scenes where
we may not necessarily know what's happening to our bodies
and why we're feeling a certain way. So, yeah, when
we're off work, it's great to have a little bit
more light. Which even if we had daylight saving time
through the winter, it's going to still be dark if
you're living north, like the day the days to short period.
(40:05):
But yeah, we like that light later, but our biology
really is wanting that light early in the day to
reset our clocks, to get us to keep us in tune.
So I think there's a couple reasons in which it's
been really hard to push forward with daylight saving time.
(40:26):
And yeah, the scientists are unanimous in that, well maybe
I shouldn't say unanimous, but close to supporting the idea
of permanent standard time, because that is what our biology
really is craving.
Speaker 1 (40:42):
Yeah, I'm going to throw a huge party when that changes.
I'm just going to be so happy.
Speaker 4 (40:50):
I will say that there are some out there who
think the status quote of flipping back and forth might
still be the best answer, because yeah, there are cosequences
to foot flopping. But really, if you step back, what
is the major issue here? The major issue is our
schedules because it really doesn't matter what the clock on
the wall says. If we can live our own lives
(41:10):
as our biology tells us too, by the sun, it
doesn't really matter. So, you know, I think the idea
of flexing start times, you know, for jobs which COVID
helped us get a little more towards right es, letting
and workers work when they're most primed to work and
you're going to get more productivity out of them anyway
(41:31):
at those hours. That is one way around this. And
thinking about school start times again, you know, all these things.
The reasons in which this matters I think shouldn't be
lost from that conversation.
Speaker 2 (41:45):
How do you feel about health data trackers like the
whoop or the or a ring like are those actually helpful?
Speaker 3 (41:51):
Uh?
Speaker 4 (41:52):
Yes, I know it would be my answer to that
as well. I found it helpful over a period of time,
I wore a fitbit and I really paid attention to
my sleep, and I could see patterns for myself, right,
I mean these none of these are super accurate, and
they might also make you a little hyper focused, and
(42:13):
that can cause its own harm. But I really found
it helpful to see my sleep in the morning and
take note of when did I stop eating, did I
drink alcohol? How much caffeine did I have? You know,
those factors. I really truly did see differences pretty profound
when I, you know, follow the three c's and when
(42:34):
I didn't. And of course we're going to let ourselves
break rolls here and there, right, I mean, we have
to have a life, we have to have our lady's
night out or.
Speaker 3 (42:42):
Whatever it might be.
Speaker 4 (42:43):
So to a point, you know, following those really did
seem to make a difference for me. So I think
it's helpful personally if you you know, trying to see
how your body reacts to things, because we're all different.
You know, somebody could have three four cups of coffee
and not be as impacted as another person, and with
just one cup of coffee.
Speaker 1 (43:01):
For example, we ask every guest that comes on, what
does being healthy mean to you? And what do you
personally do to stay healthy? And I'm now knowing you
know everything, you know, I really am curious about your answer.
Speaker 4 (43:17):
Yeah, well, I mean, obviously we're thinking circadian here. I
have tried to change quite a few things actually since
reporting this book. And like I said, you know, I
find myself feeling a lot better if I get that
light during the day, if I get up and get
myself outside and see the sun, and try to continue
(43:39):
to get little doses of one of my sources called
circadian snacks throughout the day, and you know, and I think,
I mean, it goes beyond circadian, right, Like that is
just kind of reconnecting with nature and with the rhythms.
And then at night, the coziness factor comes into play too,
with turning down those lights and and just having candlelight
(44:01):
around dim warm lights. That really has made a difference
for me and sleep. I mean, I've always known it's important,
We're told is important, but really thinking about how much better,
how much more productive I am during the day, my
better moods once I've had that quality sleep which again
is tied very much to all these other things, keeping
(44:22):
keeping my clocks in two. So so yeah, I think
that's for me living clockwise.
Speaker 1 (44:30):
As I say, oh, I love the sound like, oh
this is my clock lifestyle, you know, like clockwise.
Speaker 3 (44:39):
It's great.
Speaker 2 (44:40):
Yeah, Lynn, thank you so much for joining us. It's honestly,
it's been a pleasure talking to.
Speaker 4 (44:44):
You, real pleasure talking to you.
Speaker 1 (44:46):
Thank you, and thank you so much for writing the book.
It was such a pleasure to read. And I think
it's such a great like PSA for you know, sunlight
is free, so you don't need a prescription. You know,
it's it's accessible to everyone. We all get access to it.
So I I just really appreciate the work you've done.
Speaker 4 (45:08):
Thank you, Oh, thank you very much. Be Quackwise.
Speaker 1 (45:19):
Health Stuff is a production of iHeart Podcasts. The show
is hosted by Me, doctor Preanko Wally, and Harrikondobolu. Producers
are Rebecca Eisenberg, Jenna Cagel, Christina Loranger, Maya Howard, and
Katrina Norvel. Our researcher is Maria Tremarki and our intern
is Katia Zobel Leayala. To send us a question, you
(45:40):
can email us a voice memo at health Stuff Podcast
at gmail dot com. Thanks so much for listening.
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