July 8, 2025 • 65 mins
This week Joseph is joined by author Rashid Darden and author/writer/producer George M. Johnson to discuss the importance of books and the public library within our lives as Black Queer Mxn. Find Rashid on IG @rashidpedia or visit his website at www.rashiddarden.com. Order his new book here - https://loyaltybookstores.com/book/9781734722840. Follow George on IG/Twitter @iamgmjohnson. Listen to George's podcaster here - https://open.spotify.com/show/4wHgADd1CJJ6muai0Vj7KW. Follow Joseph on IG/X/Threads @josephtheythem and send your prayer requests/prayer reports to josephreaves@iheartmedia.com. HELLA BLACK, HELLA QUEER, HELLA CHRISTIAN is an iHeart podcast apart of the Outspoken! Network which amplifies LGBTQ voices in podcasting.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hella Black, Hello, Queer, Hello Christian is a production of
iHeart Podcasts on the Outspoken Network. Show me how good
is going to get today? God, Dear Universe, you have
permission to amaze me today. I am a beautiful and
blessed being who deserves great things always. I love my
(00:21):
life and I am thankful for my life. I am
safe and I have everything I need. Show me how
good is going to get today? God, Dear Universe, you
have permission to amaze me today. I am a beautiful
and blessed being who deserves great things always. I love
my life and I am thankful for my life. I
(00:42):
am safe and I have everything I need. Something amazing
is going to happen for me today. I invited George
(01:04):
and Rashid because they model something we don't talk about enough,
what it means to shape the culture through your words,
your lens, and your courage. Their work lives at the
intersection of personal truth, political insight, and creative power, and
they both carved out past that makes space for others
(01:26):
to do the same. In this episode, we talk about
the craft and cost of telling the truth, the role
of writing, and survival, what it means to be a
storyteller who's also a witness, and how creative expression becomes
a record of resistance and joy not just for us,
(01:47):
but for generations coming behind us. By the end, you'll
walk away with a deeper understanding of what it takes
to write honestly and live even more honesty in a
world that doesn't always want you to. Well, Hello everybody,
and welcome to another episode of Hella Black, Hella Queer,
(02:10):
Hello Christian, a fully black, fully queer, fully human, fully
divine podcast around society, culture, and other fresh fried nigga
shit I feel like talking about with my dope ass friends.
I am your host once again, Joseph Freese. My pronouns
are they them? So let us get this show started
(02:31):
by moving into our church announcements. A little bit of
heavy news, but we still rejoice. I just want to
take this church announcement segment to remember and to celebrate
the life of Andy Bay. So for those of you
who may not know or did not know who Andy
(02:51):
Bay was, Andy Bay was an American jazz singer and
pianist who was known for having a wide vocal range.
Was known for having a four octave baritone voice. Who
was born in Newark, on October twenty eighth, nineteen thirty nine.
He worked on the nineteen fifty nine nineteen sixty television
show Star Time with Connie Francis, and then he sang
(03:14):
for people like Louis Jordan and then at the age
of seventeen, he formed a trio with his siblings Saloon
Bay and Gerald Deane Bay, called Andy and the Bay Sisters.
The trio went on a sixteen month towards Europe. The
jazz trumpeter Check Baker's nineteen eighty eight documentary Let's Get
Last includes footage of Bay and his sisters delighting a
(03:34):
Parisian audience, and then the trio recorded three albums, one
for RCA Victor in nineteen sixty one and two for
Prestige in nineteen sixty four in nineteen sixty five before
breaking up in nineteen sixty seven and then by also
worked for Horace Silver and Gary Barts. Bay was opened
(03:54):
to gay and in nineteen ninety four he was diagnosed
as HIV positive, but continued his career, maintaining a lifestyle
that included yoga and a vegetarian diet, and then he
was a longtime resident of Chelsea, and around about April
the twenty six of this year, and he passed away,
(04:15):
and I wasn't that familiar with him, but I saw,
like a lot of friends, a lot of people that
I respect, sharing the news of his passing away, and
it caused me to look up to him and get
into him more. And I really felt that it was
important to highlight him on this episode because so many
of our icons as like black gay people, black queer people,
(04:36):
black LGBDQ people, and then especially as like black queer,
gay bisexual men, you don't know a lot of our
ancestors and a lot of our blueprint we don't know.
So I really do feel like it was important to
highlight Andy and give him his flowers as an ancestor,
even if I wasn't able to give it to him
(04:57):
as an elder. Because for him to be eighty five
years old, born in nineteen thirty eight, diagnosed as positive
in nineteen ninety four, I can only imagine the things
he saw, the things he lost, the people he lost,
the battle scars he endured. But to be, you know,
(05:19):
a black gay pas man who lives almost to see
ninety where probably so many of his peers and colleagues
did not get to live to see old age. Definitely
do think that that's something to celebrate. So Andy, we
wish you safe passage, rest in peace, rest in power,
(05:40):
and all that goodness. We talk about the spaces that
raised us, libraries, campuses, chosen families, and what it meant
to move from simply existing in them to actively shaping them.
More on that right after this. Welcome back to Hella Black,
(06:20):
Hello Queer, Hello Christian. I'm Joseph Fries in conversation with
George M. Johnson and Rashi Darted, tracing the moments that
shaped us and the ones we decided to shape ourselves.
Let's get back into it. I'm looking, I'm looking toward
the vestibule and I see some guests. So we're gonna
(06:41):
let our guests in and we're gonna allow them to
introduce themselves. Rashi, we can begin with you, and then
George we can go to you.
Speaker 2 (06:49):
Thank you so much for having me here. As you know,
in the in the Quaker faith, you can worship anywhere, anytime,
and like many denominations, the church is the people and
not necessarily the building. My name is Rashie Darden, born
and raised in Washington, d C. Currently an expat in Conway,
North Carolina, where I've been living a rural lifestyle for
(07:11):
the past five or six years. I'm a novelist first
and foremost. I'm active in my faith community, the Religious
Society of Friends, also known as the Quakers, and I'm
just happy to be here. There's a lot about my
identities and my life and my lives that I'm happy
to share with you today.
Speaker 3 (07:29):
Hello everyone. My name is Georgian Johnson, go by day
then pronouns New York Times bestselling author of a book,
All Boys Aren't Blue. I've also written two books following that,
one called We Are Not Broken, which is a story
about my grandmother, as well as Flamboyant, there's a story
about the queer Harlem Renaissance. Also work in television and film.
(07:50):
Used to do a lot of activism within HIV work
as well as just black LGBTQ rights and culture. I
spend most of my time in Los Angeles. I'm pretty
much bycoastal at this point, but I enjoy writing like
writing to me isn't work. It's like my chosen purpose.
Grateful that I get to wake up every day and
(08:13):
do what it is that I love to do. And
and not always feel like work.
Speaker 1 (08:17):
These are two individuals that have known me and I
have known them for a long time. As far as Rashied,
I remember preparing to come to DC and preparing to,
you know, start my journey at Howard back in two
thousand and eight, and this book called Lazarus comes across
(08:42):
my site and my knowledge of seeing and I just
remember that with Rashid, even though things have changed, I
have changed, I have grown, but really him being a
possibility model as far as what it could mean to
be gay and a member of a Black Greek letter
(09:03):
organization and Rashid, I really don't think you get your
flowers in the way that you should, in the way
that there are conversations that are starting to germinate and
starting to happen now around Black Greek letter organizations, the
way that people are initiated into Black Greek Letter organizations,
(09:24):
issues of gender and sexuality within Black Greek Letter organizations,
and just a celebrator of the culture, because I don't
just know Rashid as a also, but I also know
Rashid as a photographer and how Rashid really dedicated themselves
to like documenting an archiving the like the probates of
(09:47):
Black Greek letter organization within the DC area. And even
though like that part of my life has changed where
that's not necessarily something I aspire to as much as
I want, I'm definitely glad that we were able to
cross paths and I was still able to gain you
as a friend. And then me and George both spent
(10:10):
time working at US helping US people into Living, which
is an iconic HIV AID service organization here in the
DC metro area, and I would just see George coming
in working in the finance department doing what he could
as far as his day job from that perspective, but
getting to read first drafts of some of George's earlier works,
(10:33):
and then seeing you know, George really take that leap
and really move in to being a writer, moving to
writing around books and television, and just to see him
now as me and them both during our time at
US helping us be kind of like encountered a whole
lot of folks with a whole lot of should have
could have wooders, to quote Sheryl Lee Routh from Sister
(10:53):
Act too, but to really see him as someone who
really took those should have could have Wooders and really
manifested it into something tangible. Has just always been a
great inspiration for me. So before we move into the
main conversation, do have some icebreaker questions that I want
us to answer, because this week's episode is called Reading
(11:15):
Rainbrow Reading Rainbow. If I can get my words together
and get them out, and we're just really going to
be talking about literature, the local library and the role
it played in our lives as black queer men. So
if you could give a commencement speech anywhere, where would
it be? And the second question is what is your
(11:38):
favorite TV theme song?
Speaker 2 (11:41):
So I must say I'm loyal to a fault to
my various institutions, and one of those institutions is Georgetown University,
where I got my undergraduate degree, and I want to
speak there first. Alma Mater is highest Mother, and that's
where I got a lot of my starts and some
(12:03):
stops as a writer, and just putting on that blue
and gray get up for an honorary degree that would
be the bees' nes for me. In another life, I
want to be a trustee at the University of the
District of Columbia also, so that's a whole different thing. Like,
I really I'm loyal to my city and I want
to see it when every time. In terms of theme songs,
(12:26):
I was born in seventy nine, so I grew up
with a lot of these shows. I really can't decide
between the facts of life and give me a Break.
I was looking over the lyrics to give Me a
Break today and I was just I was really thinking,
this don't match the premise of this show at all,
but it's still super catchy. And people that know me
(12:49):
really well know that I'm pretty obsessed with nel Carter
and think she was taking from us way too soon.
Speaker 3 (12:55):
Yeah, I guess for me, I guess I would probably
want to speak first at my alma mater to Virginia
Union University and Richmond, Virginia School, founded in eighteen sixty
five on a former slave jail called Lumpkins Jail. It's
called the Hollow Grounds for a reason because it was
in Confederate Territory and again one of the first schools,
(13:16):
well the oldest HBCU that was built in the South, well,
the first hbc you built in the South.
Speaker 4 (13:22):
I just think it has a.
Speaker 3 (13:22):
Lot of history there, and I mean, for me, as
a black queer student who went there. I think to
kind of return to that very sacred place for me
to give a commencement speech would ultimately be like a
dream of mine.
Speaker 1 (13:36):
I guess.
Speaker 3 (13:36):
If it came to theme songs, I love them and
single I watch it every day, so it is one
of my favorite theme songs. But I do think my
favorite theme song is the theme song to a Men
that's always just been I don't mean they have double
dutch in it, like they're jumping rope and the opening scene,
and anybody who knows me knows I love the double
dutch and jump rope. So I just really had always
(13:56):
connected not just to the theme song, but also to
like the opening entrance.
Speaker 1 (14:00):
Sherman Hemsley, you took mine. Shout out to Andre Crouch,
gospel legend who produced that, and then gospel legend Vanessa
Bell Armstrong who was the female vocalist on that. And
then kind of speaking to our black queer elders, shout
out to Sherman Hemsley. We don't talk about it as much,
(14:21):
but you know, you know it has been you know, disclosed,
you know that he was family. Okay, so since you
took a man, what I'm gonna use as a theme
song is the period when Patty LaBelle sang the theme
song for Oprah. So get with the program, Get with Oprah,
(14:42):
and just really think her story is so great because
it's almost like, I don't think you could have a
career like Patti Labelle's today to where she really came
into her prominence later in her career, and she really
(15:03):
came into prominent storing kind of like the Legends period
of her career. I just think that it's just wonderful
that as a woman who as a black woman R
and B singer who was in her fifties at that time,
that there was a period from ninety five, ninety six
to ninety seven and ninety eight that every day at
four pm you heard her voice on the television. Going
(15:27):
to have a little fun with the commencement question, because yes,
of course I would like to be able to return
to Howard get my degree and then one day give
commencement there and get like an honorary degree or something
like that. But when I think of my most honest
answer to that question is starting with hello black, Hello queer,
(15:47):
Hello Christians, starting with this podcast. Really being able to
get to this Splatateau. It's kind of like a professional
shit talker, whether it be stand up comedy, whether it
be podcaster, to where I can go on tour, and
then as part of that tour, I would do two
stops in New York. I would do a stop at
my elementary school, so shout out to arch Street Elementary
(16:08):
and Freeport, New York. And I would do a stop
at high school, so shout out to Ellenville High School
in Ellville, New York. And I would combine those two
stops to kind of like do a Netflix or an
HBO special. I feel like the ice has been broken,
and I feel like we can move into the main
(16:28):
segment of this week's episode. From public libraries to chosen
family rooms. These spaces formed us, but more than that,
we started to shape them in our image. More on
that after the break, we're back picking up where we
(17:07):
left off on what it means to take up space
and leave a mark once again. Name of this episode
is called Reading Rainbow, and we're going to be talking
about literature books in the public library and how it
played a role in our lives because in this moment
where those platforms are being attacked and particularly being attacked
(17:29):
for the ways that there are places of knowledge and
liberation and diversity and equity inclusion. I just really felt
like this was an important discussion to have. So the
first question I wanted to ask you, Well, there's three
parts to it. So first of all, what was the
name of your childhood library did you visit, and if so,
(17:52):
how did it help you form yourself? And then was
there a staff person you had a relationship with.
Speaker 2 (17:58):
So I'm a native Washington, as I mentioned, and I
think I forgot to mention my pronouns or he him.
My neighborhood library was LeMond Riggs Library near back of
Junior High School near Fort Totten metro station, and I
remember the library being so clean and so physically cool,
(18:18):
like it was in the summer. It was just a
nice place to be. I didn't have any particular staff
members at that library that were formative for me, but
the act of walking in as an elementary school student
and walking out with like fifteen children's books and then
(18:43):
reading them all, like there was a point where my
mom was like, we're going to stop going if you
keep reading them all the first night.
Speaker 1 (18:50):
You get home.
Speaker 2 (18:52):
But really it wasn't that. I was reading too fast.
They obviously weren't challenging enough. So the people that were
formative to me were my school librarians. Mss Lawrence at
Bunker Hill Elementary School was one of them. She was
the first librarian that I came in the room and
(19:12):
I said, do we have such and such a book?
Speaker 4 (19:15):
And I think it was a.
Speaker 2 (19:16):
Book that had been on reading rainbow and it was
The Little House. And I said, do you have that?
Do you have the Little House? And she says, ah,
the Little House, And she like whips it out like
it's like it was being filmed, and she reads the
book to us, and that was really cool. The second
influential person was not only the school librarian, but she
(19:37):
was like the gifted and talented coordinator for literature and
uh in general in gen pop if you will like,
in seeing her around the school and in the on
the school yard. She wasn't a warm lady. Her name
was Betty Dowling, Betty Jones Dowling, and I'll explain why
that's important in a minute. But she was the one
(19:59):
that pushed us to rigor. She put us on the
Junior Great Books program. We had to do reports and
we really dived deeply into literature with her, and as
I found out later in life, Betty Jones Dowling was
the granddaughter of Eugene Kinkel Jones, one of the founders
(20:20):
of Alpha Phi Alpha. And when I learned that about her,
learning her pedigree, I understood why there was that kind
of professional distance. She was not a warm and fuzzy educator.
She was about the business, and you could tell her
her bearing through that demeanor. But the school librarian was
(20:40):
for sure the most formative person for me. And I've
always liked books, bookstores, libraries, all that stuff.
Speaker 1 (20:49):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (20:49):
For me, our library is called the Plainfield Public Library,
so it's pretty simple, the Plainfield Public Library. I actually
have a lifetime card to the Plainfield Public Library. Didn't
event in my honor, and I also got a proclamation
from my city as well as a proclamation from Union County,
New Jersey at the library. For me, the playing for
Public Library was like a great place. I was a
(21:10):
loner as a kid, so I didn't have like a
huge circle of friends, and so I could just go
to the library and read all the time. I liked history.
I loved anything historical, from Witches of Salem to anything
dealing with slavery. I enjoyed reading just about the past
and processing it with where I was in the presence.
(21:34):
I think that the library for me was like one
of the first places that gave me agency. It was
like I had my own card, I had my own
process of what books I could choose. I could find
my own spot in the library to do my own
work research all of those things. I feel like the
library is also one of those places that helps build
children and young adults a sense of agency around responsibilities,
(21:57):
especially because you have to turn a book in on time.
So it kind of was like that first entryway into
not going to say adulthood, but adult ting.
Speaker 1 (22:06):
Like it gave a.
Speaker 3 (22:07):
Child a sense of structure and a system of how
things worked, which is the same way that once you
do become an adult. That's how bills work, that's how
so many other things works out, your debit guard works,
it's how like you know, and so yeah, for me,
it was that I wouldn't say that I had a
specific person or a specific librarian who helped me out
(22:30):
with things. I was pretty I was like I am today.
Like I said, as a loaner, I was pretty independent
when it came to just how I moved in any way.
But what I will say is the library always felt
like a very welcome place. All of the people who
work there back then and the people who still work
there now are very very helpful in many ways. With
(22:52):
me having a band book and right now currently the
most banned book in the country, I am constantly meeting
the librarians as we're all fighting against it, and so
a library now for me, even as an adult, is
a safe space for me as someone who is writing
books that they're trying to take off of shells. To
watch librarians really be superheroes in the space over the
(23:14):
past four or five years has been a really full
circle moment because they really do understand what's happening with
the mindset of so many people who walk through those
rooms just based off of what they're checking out, and
so they in many ways are the entry point for
a lot of people who are dealing with a lot
of issues and they're not listening. Again, libraries will tell
(23:37):
you we're not therapists, but we do know what is
going on pretty much with all of our clients based
off of what they're pulling off of shells, and so
they do become that first line of safety for so
many people, depending on what topics it is that they
may be afraid to talk to their parents about. The
librarian is always that person that has that open mind
(23:57):
to help them. And so I'm just grateful that all
of the libraryans who I come in contact with just
have that same sense of building the agency of those
of us, especially the young readers.
Speaker 1 (24:08):
Yep, thank you so much for sharing that. Both of you,
Thank you so much for your sharing. My childhood library
was the Freeport Memorial Library, and it was on one
forty and it still is on one forty four West
Merrick Road, Freeport, New York, one one five two oh
Nassau County, Long Island, and the McDonald's and one of
(24:32):
my favorite pizza shops was across the street from the
Memorial Library. And when I think about that library, I
think about summertime and how during the summers that library
really did service kind of like my daycare center. I
would walk up there, and so I've always been an
(24:54):
old soul, So I was never going to the children's section.
I was going to the adult section, and then I
was going downstairs to where the music biographies were check
out these books about Diana Ross. I would check out
these books around Motown. I would check out these books
around Tina Turner music from the sixties, and I would
(25:14):
just go to the copy machine and I would just
copy like the pictures of like the singers that I
looked up to, and then I would go home and
like I would like scrap book them. So like that's
kind of like what the library experience was for me
growing up, and kind of like the basement of that
library just kind of like looking up all those books.
(25:37):
Really birst who I am as a pop culture nerd
to where people just are always like, well, like, how
do you know all these facts? How do you know
about all these albums? How do you know about this
and that and the thing? And I just tell them,
growing the little colored homosexual, the public library was my
friend in my adolescence when I started to really name
for myself that I was saying sex attracted, I was gay,
(26:00):
was QUREI was homosexual? Really using the exchange program and
this time I'm upstate in Elephant, New York, so shout
out to the Eleville Public Library. So I would kind
of like use their intersystem loan program to get those
books by Elin Harris, get those books by James L. Hardy,
get those books by Keep Boykin, One More River to Cross,
(26:21):
Black and Gay in America, even get those books like
Brother The Brother and In the Life, so that I
could really kind of like start to learn myself, in
form myself. So that's kind of like my answer to
that question, and it kind of leads into my second question,
When did you first see yourself in a book? And
have you ever seen yourself in a book?
Speaker 2 (26:41):
So I was one of those and I'm sorry, Joseph.
I was just really thinking about the trust that you
must have established with your librarians in order to do
an interlibrary loan for Elin Harris's novels and whatnot, because
I'm sure different people might have been afraid to do that.
So I think that's a testament not only to your courage,
(27:03):
but to the professionalism of the people handling that with you.
I was one of those weird kids that would race
bend almost everything I would read. And so I remember
especially reading The Vampire Diaries and just deciding they were black,
(27:24):
and I would just read the parts that would say,
you know, like, oh, Hazel eyes.
Speaker 4 (27:28):
I'm like, yeah, I knew a girl with hazel.
Speaker 2 (27:30):
Eyes because I wanted to read what I wanted to read,
and I didn't. I didn't think I should have to
wait a lifetime to read a book about black vampires.
So I just made the vampires black in my head.
But when I got older, I realized, Okay, if you're
going to run, you got to write the black vampire book,
because at thirty they still weren't being written. So that's
(27:52):
what I did. But when I first really saw myself,
and I remember Coolidge High School about ninety five ninety six,
the girls were outside on the bleachers taking turns with
Elin Harris's Invisible Life, and it was the first time
I had heard of a black gay novel. It was
(28:13):
like what And they're like, sure, you should read it,
and like nobody was, you know, clocking me back then necessarily,
nor was it a test. But they handed it to
me and I said, oh, I can't read this, and
I'm reading it like I can't stop reading it. So
I ended up going down to be Dalton and getting
my own. Once I knew that there were more Elin
Harris novels and James L. Hardy novels, and that there
(28:38):
was Lambda Rising Bookstore in DuPont Circle in DC, and
then realizing that there was a whole generation of black
queer authors before Elin Harris and poets and everything that
was a very I feel so blessed and so grateful
(28:58):
to have come of it in an era where there
was a back catalog of black queer books, that there
was contemporary black queer books, and as you and I
have spoken before, Joseph, that we also became adults in
this explosion of black gay media on television and in
(29:19):
magazines and in movies and even in the pornography. We
consume there was a diversity of things that were available.
God bless and Rique Cruz.
Speaker 1 (29:28):
Yeah, I've gotten that question a lot.
Speaker 3 (29:31):
It's very interesting. It's like, I feel like I've read
a lot about our experiences. I don't know if I've
read about anything that has really talked to me to
make me feel like who I am? Per se, I know,
I damn sure it didn't. During childhood or young adulthood,
I felt that I gravitated to people like Langston Hughes,
and I gravitated to people like count A Cullen, which
(29:52):
was always interesting because they never told me about their queerness.
But there was something about the way that they wrote
that spoke to my queerness. So it was like and
I feel like that was like me understanding coded language
in a way that it was speaking. In the ways
in which they wrote it felt very coded to me
(30:13):
in a way that I understand as someone who was
having to code switch to try and not really fit
in but out of a way of survival with how
effeminate I was. And so I did find myself really
leaning heavily into both of their work as a young adult. Unfortunately,
I also went to Catholic school, so there was not
(30:34):
a variety of anything that looked like me. And as
I've stated to my love of writing books came from
my hatred of having to read the ones that I
was forced to read for summer programs and things. Catching
the Rite, I just think it's an absolutely horrible book.
I think it is a great teaching tool, but a
terrible book. I think it's the holding call fields of
(30:56):
the world that I had to read about that forced
me to really know, like, Okay, if people have to
read about holding Call Field, they should also have to
read about who I am and what I go through
and what my experiences are and what our experiences are
as well. And so of course I think, you know,
twenties and thirties, that's when I was able to get
(31:18):
into the HIV writers and all of those who unfortunately
passed away, but the Marlon Briggs and all of their work.
And then of course I'm grateful that he's like an
older brother to me, but Darnell Moore being able to
get into his not just get into his work, but
also be mentored by him and be in many ways,
(31:40):
I don't want to say it like chosen, but be
chosen by him to usher me into something that he
saw in me, Like he saw that I was supposed
to be this writer, and he helped sharpen my iron,
and so grateful to that.
Speaker 1 (31:55):
Again.
Speaker 3 (31:56):
Keith Boyken, who's another dear friend, is another one who
I've just learned so much from. I'm grateful that I
got to work under doctor Ron Simmons and that I
also have Phil Wilson as like two of my mentors
and made Ron rest in peace. But Ron was really
adamant about me writing. Once he read an article I wrote.
(32:17):
He was just adamant that I had to like because
Ron was a writer and used to show me some
of his writings, and I just thought they were brilliant
and they were so radical for what he was doing
in the seventies with his Faggot Chronicles is what they
were called, and he was called the fat Chronicles, and
he was just going so hard back then, and it
really inspired me. And so so yeah, but I do
(32:39):
think now it is beautiful that this next generation, like
there's so much out there for them, it's almost hard
to not feel seen now, whereas it used to be
the reverse. It's like there's so many texts out there
that we can ensure that the majority of populations are
being seen. Finally, in books.
Speaker 2 (32:59):
Ron was an art supporter of a lot of gay
black writers. He made a point whenever I saw him
at DC Black Pride or you know, other stuff that
wasn't author related, he would just kind of point and.
Speaker 4 (33:12):
Say, I know you, I have your books.
Speaker 2 (33:15):
And it's especially when you're independently published. There's just no
better feeling than knowing, Wow, somebody out there that's buying
my stuff and speaking well.
Speaker 1 (33:25):
Yeah in that unmistakable voice that was signaturely Ron's, I
want to say. And I wasn't really able to realize
it until I became an adult, but I have to
say one of the first times that I really saw
myself seen in a book and really found myself relating
and connecting to someone in a book. Back to the
(33:48):
music thing. Patty Labelle's autobiography her memoir Don't Block the Blessings,
which was released in nineteen ninety six and was co
written with Lord B. Randolph, who I believe was the
editor for Everity magazine at that time. Really seeing her
and seeing myself in her as someone who was recognized
(34:08):
as talented, but also as they started to walk into
their talent kind of always having to navigate being told
that they were too much and they needed to tone
it down. Someone who was talented and who had this
gifted voice, but did not grow up feeling physically attractive
(34:28):
or physically pretty or physically beautiful. For Patty, it was
her nose. For me, it's always been like my teeth.
So really seeing myself in her in that really through
that book and reeting her story, being able to see
her and identify her as kind of like my Deva Orisha,
(34:51):
and even looking at the law she experienced. As far
as you know, she lost both her parents before she
was forty. I've lost both mine before I was forty,
so just really looking at her, at her life story,
and that's kind of like the first time I really
saw myself kind of like in a public figure and
(35:14):
like I saw myself and not someone that I was
aspiring to be. And then from the black gay aspect,
I really do have to say James Earl Hardy and
his character Mitchell Crawford and like that Bee Boy Blue
series because you know, seeing Mitchell Crawford and I've expanded
(35:35):
and I've grown, but like as a hormonal fifteen sixteen
year old besexual, I was definitely into the rough types
and like the thugs and kind of like those really
like hip hop coded men because I'm reading James A.
Hardy while coming of age and seeing people like Michael K.
Williams portray Omar on the Wire and kind of like
(35:58):
seeing the whole discussion of the homo thug and like
really kind of like seeing like and then it's like
I started my club going days as black gay night
life really transitioned from kind of like house and disco
and R and B and Vogue and kind of like
we I kind of see myself as far like that
(36:20):
first generation of one of those first generations that really
saw like gay clubs have hip hop nights and really
kind of like start to cater to kind of like
that hip hop community. So to see Mitchell Crawford, you know,
as this more effeminate black gay man who was more
into masculine men, who also like loved a lot of
(36:41):
the singers that I loved, that was kind of like
the first time that I just really remember seeing myself
in literature as a as a black queer person becoming Joseph.
Speaker 4 (36:51):
Did you experience The Delta in DC when it was open?
Speaker 1 (36:55):
I didn't, and I regret it because one of the
big shifts of coming to DC from New York City
is experiencing public transportation that stopped.
Speaker 2 (37:10):
Running yeap with a car to get to Yeah, the
Delta was a club that played house upstairs and hip
hop in the basement.
Speaker 3 (37:19):
It was a safety hazard because you couldn't get out
if a fire happened. There was only one entry in
one exit.
Speaker 4 (37:24):
Yep, but well worth the risk.
Speaker 1 (37:27):
And it was like the after spot because you know,
for me, I experienced the Mill okay to where like
doing like the Mills heyday on Saturday nights, and then
really during the mills hey day, even on Thursday nights
as well, you would have the house room over to
(37:49):
the side and then kind of like that big room
downstairs was kind of like the hip hop R and
B room. So I didn't experience the delta, but I
did the mill because it would kind of be like, Okay,
I could go to the mill, but then I knew
I needed to start making my way down to Eastern
Market so I could catch that last train that would
(38:12):
get me back over northwest to Howard. Yeah, what was
the first book you remember reading about blackness? Reading about queerness,
and then reading about black queerness.
Speaker 2 (38:22):
So the first book I remember reading about blackness and
I did answer black queerness was Elin Harris's novels. The
first black book I remember reading was Mufaro's Beautiful Daughters
children's books set in Africa, and was a reading rainbow book.
(38:43):
And surely there had to have been others, but actually
there might have been another. There was a children's novel
called Sister by Eloise Greenfield that I remember blackness being
very prominent in that and it deal there. Well, I
guess it's not a spoiler of the book is forty
years old, but it deals with the loss of a parent,
at sudden loss of a parent. It deals with a
(39:06):
lot of just hard for me to not conflate blackness
with urbanness because my blackness is urban and was urban and.
Speaker 4 (39:13):
Now it's rurals.
Speaker 2 (39:14):
But I remember reading those books and that was kind
of the gateway to blackness and all other forms of
literature to be followed. The first gay stuff I remember reading,
I don't know. It must have been from the back
section of a downtown periodical shop, like a magazine or something.
(39:36):
Thank God for Elin Harris, Thank God for James o'hardy
and everybody that came after.
Speaker 3 (39:42):
Yeah, I think for me, probably the first time I
recalled reading The Black Book read the third or fourth
grade because my teacher was Miss Pavis and I had
to do a book report on Malcolm X. I remember
that one specifically because we had to make these out.
It was very strange. But I wasn't gifted, so they
was always pushing us to do something that made no
(40:02):
sense that they thought made us gifted and talented. So
I do remember it was Malcolm X. But I do
like the first book that I really I think read
and like really internalized. Was when I was in the
sixth grade gifted and talented and they had us read
three Negro classics. That was when I really was starting
to be like, okay, like I understand this fully and
(40:25):
I feel this fully. I think that was like for me,
like starting to connect the dots of like the stories
that my grandmother and great grandmother would tell us with
the actual past that we had, right, And so I
think that was really when I started to tap into
my blackness. And then I went to middle school. Max
in middle school, and I had a teacher there who
(40:46):
several teachers included Miss Lynn. She was my math teacher,
but I still text her to this day. She just
texted me the other day, but she was very adamant
about us as black kids really understanding our blackness, Like
she was adamant about it. Of the teachers that were there.
That was the first time where I had all black
teachers in middle school, and they were just very very
adamant about us learning our history. I feel the same
(41:09):
way when it comes to like black queerness, Like I'm
not sure what the first thing I read was that
included it, but I feel the same way that probably
was more on the article side, like reading through articles
or periodicals or something where I was able to kind of.
Speaker 4 (41:28):
Tap into it.
Speaker 3 (41:29):
But it could have also been BGC Live for those
who don't remember it. In addition to it being an
app where you could connect the people and hook up,
they had what was called the BGC Forum, and there
were a lot of stories that were written in this forum,
like that was like erotica and like all of these
other things. But the forum was probably one of the
first places that I actually started to read about people's
(41:52):
queer experiences because some of them were just fictional stories.
Some of them were like true stories of like what
they were hooking up or what they were doing, what
they were going through. So I do probably think it
was probably the BGC Live forum was really where I
got my first introduction because I was like twenty one
at the time, so it was like two thousand and
sixty thousand and seven when I really got on to
BGC Live. That was probably like my first real start
(42:15):
with interactions of stories.
Speaker 4 (42:18):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (42:18):
So funny that you would bring up BGC live because
there was a website. It was like blackmen dot net
or blackmen dot com, and it was like people would
like post like black gay erotica, so that was kind
of like an introduction for me, and then much liked George.
When I was a teenager, I kind of did like
(42:40):
my customary black male reading of the Order biography of
Malcolm X, which in all honesty, I kind of now
I kind of think it's somewhat overrated. But that first
really black book where I kind of locked in and
kind of like instilled black pride or even revolutionary radicalism
for me was Huey P. Newton's Revolutionary Suicide. And then
(43:02):
I also remember getting into like ghetto lit around that time,
so like Iceberg, Slim, Donald Goins, I came up during
kind of like the initial push of like Sister Soldier's
Coldest whenever. And then even if we're gonna talk about
kind of like that early two thousands period of kind
(43:22):
of like ghetto lit or urban lit or street lit
kind of even like harkening back to James or Hardy,
I really don't think that he gets a lot of
credit for being a part of that genre as a
gay person, because B Boy Blues could definitely be looked
at it as kind of like hood lit in its
own way. And then I'm even gonna take it as
(43:45):
a step further, because really, if we're gonna talk about
like literature or printing publications, that really helped me come
into my queerness and Rahi, you had even spoken earlier
kind of like around the porn aspect, but really kind
of like the moment that kind of like really helped
me to say yes is that when I, as a
sixteen year old, went into a Hudson news stand at
(44:09):
Port Authority and bought a copy of Black Inches, which
was like this gay pornography magazine. And I remember taking
the bus back up state from Port Authority and being like,
you just went and picked up a gay, poor magazine,
and you paid for it with your money at the
(44:31):
very least your bisexual, if not full out gay, because
like you just did this, you know, in the light
of day, so like you definitely have same sex attraction
that you need to embrace and stop running away from.
Speaker 2 (44:46):
I okay, feel bad for the kids that don't. I
wonder if you get the same feeling when you go
to your first site or your first app because those
cloak and dagger missions going so place to buy something.
Speaker 1 (45:02):
Because it took me a good thirty to forty five
minutes to drum up the courage to walk up to
the counter. I almost missed my buzz going back. If
you're feeling this conversation, go ahead, like subscribe and share
it with someone who needs it. We're gonna take a
quick break here before we go. We're digging into what
(45:23):
stays with us, the lessons, the joy and the power
of owning our stories. More in a moment, we're back
(45:45):
one last time with George M. Johnson and Rashi Darted,
closing out with what it means to hold on to joy,
purpose and the community that raised us. Let's bring this
thing all home. What is that's a book that you
would recommend to a young black queer person today.
Speaker 2 (46:05):
Well, you know, I want to be gracious to all
of the fellow black gay queer by writers out there
and list a whole bunch of.
Speaker 4 (46:18):
Folks, But I'm gonna say me.
Speaker 2 (46:20):
I'muda say Rashie Dartan's Lazarus is a good place to
jump in if you are a young black queer person.
And what I realize I've done with my career over
the years is and my writing career and my career
as an educator, and all aspects of me I have
a soft spot in my heart for young adults. I
(46:42):
have a soft spot in my heart for teenagers. Don't
really want to be around them a whole lot, but
I understand that, just like I needed examples, that there
will always be people that need examples. And I hope
that the characters that I write that are in their
(47:04):
age group. Whether it's a college sophomore debating whether to
pledge his father's fraternity, or somebody about to get turned
out by some vampires or demi gods, or people contending
with their spiritual pathways, people learning about their gender identities
and supporting those around them as they learn their gender identities.
(47:28):
Find me Rashidipedia online, Rashid Darden on anywhere that.
Speaker 4 (47:34):
Books are sold.
Speaker 2 (47:36):
I know what it was to feel those things, and
I don't imagine that I'll ever be not writing about
the black queer experience. Besides the people that I've just mentioned,
there's of course Frederick Smith, who is killing it in
the romance genre. There are so many people, and there's
people yet to be discovered that are writing and perform
(48:00):
and might not have a deal and might not know
what's next for their careers.
Speaker 4 (48:05):
But if you no one, support them too.
Speaker 3 (48:09):
Yeah, that's a good question. I would probably say. I
feel like the obviously answer is my own book. But
it's so banned, it's just so out there. It's like,
you know, all Boys Aren't Blue is always going to
be considered a tool. I talked a lot of therapists
will use it on your practices when they're working with
(48:29):
black queer young adults, which was just something I never
thought about even when writing it. I think it's a
good book and it's a good learning tool. It's a
good entry point for black queer young adults who are
really trying to figure it out. And I've seen how
many people it has helped, just like through emails and
all of the times I went out to meet people.
(48:52):
And I also think when it comes to black we're
young adults, I would also say they should read Tony
Morris and works. I do think that there's something there
for all of us, Like she just writes in a
way that is very it's like universal and specific, which
is a very hard balance to hit, which I think
(49:14):
many of us struggle with as writers sometimes like how
do I make this a universal thing with specificity? But
I feel like Tony Morrison is just such a god.
She's just such an icon and at doing that though,
where you can feel felt in all of her stories
no matter what your background is and where you're from,
(49:35):
like it still feels like she is speaking directly to you.
And I actually do encourage more black where young adults
to really really read through the works of Tony Morrison
at the stake. That's been a great helpful tool throughout
my life.
Speaker 1 (49:50):
So I finally finished my first Tony Morrison novel, like,
I was finally able to sit and read below it
from cover to cover. So if I want to suggest
a book, I would suggest Burst of Light by Ugie Lord,
her book of essays, something that I would suggest because
(50:14):
if you're a young black queer person and really looking
to forge identity and looking for affirmation and validation, the
heavy lifting that black lesbian writers did cannot be overstated.
So that is going to wrap up the word and
now we're going to move into the benediction. We have
one more question forgive me and then we will move
(50:36):
into the benediction. Your dream film adaptation of a book
and who would you cast?
Speaker 2 (50:41):
Oh goodness, let me start with the casting first. I
used to do dreamcasting all the time, for my own
novels and what I realized, I just want to give
a young unknown a chance. And I've been watching Beyond
the Gates. I think there are some actors and actresses
on that show that are killing it. I need Sula
(51:04):
the movie. Just cannot understand why Sula is not a film.
And I'll say Joseph also, all Tony Morrison novels aren't
built the same. And I give you kudos for finishing beloved.
I think you would have enjoyed Sula earlier in your life.
Sula I would love to see become a movie. And
(51:26):
there are just plenty of black queer books out there
that deserve a shot as well.
Speaker 3 (51:31):
Yeah, that's an interesting question. It's like, what book do
I want to see as a movie? There's so many,
And actually it's kind of interesting because it's like there
are a lot of black books that are optioned that
never make it to the screen. And it's actually a
growing trend that we've been talking about for the last
couple of years. As I've also had a book that
(51:51):
was optioned for television that still has not made it
to screen, but I think that I would love to.
It is called Promise Boys. This is about a murder
that happens at a DC prep academy. This is by
Nick Brooks. I got to interview him at the Barnes
(52:11):
and Noble out here when he went on his first
book tour. It's a great murder mystery book for black kids.
It's just something that I would love to see adapted
and put on the screen.
Speaker 1 (52:22):
So I would love to see an adaptation of one
of Elin Harris's later books to feature Basil Henderson, because
I want Craig Melvin from The Today Show to be
cast as Basil Henderson, and I'm not worried about his
acting ability.
Speaker 4 (52:38):
Listen, and we don't judge. What are you looking forward
to looking forward to revolution?
Speaker 3 (52:45):
I would just simply say I am looking forward to
the midterm elections.
Speaker 1 (52:51):
Much like what you just I'm looking forward to us
getting to the other side of this. I'm looking forward
to us getting to the other side of this moment
in our country, getting to the other side of this
moment in our world, and I want to bring as
many of us with us. So what is one thing
(53:13):
you like about yourself?
Speaker 2 (53:14):
I like my intelligence, I like my sense of humor.
A year from today, I am slimmer richer and richer.
Speaker 1 (53:28):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (53:28):
A year from today, I would say I will probably
be completely bicoastal. My fourth book will have been released,
and if everything goes according to plan, I should be
in production for my first film. It's best to be exciting.
Speaker 1 (53:44):
A year from today, I want to be getting ready
to head out of town for a Mother's Day weekend.
What are you thankful for?
Speaker 4 (53:53):
I am thankful for my mother.
Speaker 2 (53:55):
I'm thankful for the sacrifices of my ancestors who come
from rural northeastern North Carolina. And I'm thankful for the
ones that made their way to Washington, d C. During
the Great Migration. And I'm thankful that nobody stopped me
when I wanted to come down home to where the
(54:16):
soil was fertile, creatively, spiritually, and familiarly.
Speaker 3 (54:22):
Yeah, I think today I'm very, very grateful for the
spirit of discernment, knowing when I need to make moves
versus knowing when I need to stay still and let
things move around me. And I think even more, I
am really really thankful for allowing myself to take the
(54:43):
time to learn myself and to understand that rest and
just so many other things are important in addition to
the work that I do, prioritizing those things just as
much as I prioritize certain other I guess material things.
Speaker 1 (55:00):
I am thankful for the musical legacy of Atlanta, Georgia.
We just celebrated thirty one years of Outcast debut album
So Southern Playlistic Cadillac Music, and then we just celebrated
the anniversary of Janelle Monage's Dirty Computer, and then we're
just hearing the news around Outcasts being inducted into the
(55:20):
Rock and Roll Hall of Fame, and it's just really
has me thinking about and focusing on the great creative
output from that one city and how the South truly
has had something to say for about the past thirty years.
Speaker 4 (55:34):
I am proud of.
Speaker 2 (55:39):
My ability to walk away from making a hasty decision,
and I am proud that I have been, as of
this past April, a self published author for twenty years
and following in the path of Elin Harris, but yet
forging my own way. I'm proud that I did it
my way.
Speaker 3 (56:01):
Yeah, I would have to say. Currently, I am very
proud of the resiliency of gen Z. I think they
have or they continue to impress me with their fight
with their just the ways in which they mobilize and galvanize,
which in many ways it's a lot differently from how
(56:22):
I was kind of raised to do in the nineties
during the big boom of like the black quote unquote
middle class, and you had the shows and you had
all these things, and it was kind of like about
conformity as a person who went through nine to eleven
and a housing crash and the stock market crash. Lineals
have been through a lot in this country, but one
(56:43):
thing we didn't have was school shooting like the way
they have. And there's just some things that mentally that
they go through that I'm just like, I would not
even want to go to school every day, Like this
is almost I just couldn't imagine like having that like
on your mind, with the type of trainings they have
to go through and shut downs and everything, and they
just continue to fight though, whether it's book bands, Roe v. Wade,
(57:04):
they show up in courtrooms, they walk out of school.
I'm just proud of their resilience, and I'm proud that
they look up to people in my generation as a
catalyst for why they take action.
Speaker 1 (57:16):
Yep, I'm proud of my own growth I'm just really
in a season where I'm just really realizing that I
may not be everything that I need to be or
everything that I want to be, but I'm not everything
that I used to be either, and that really counts
for something. So what is a thorn for you? What
(57:37):
is something that's really getting your goat at the moment?
Speaker 4 (57:40):
The unrelenting white supremacy.
Speaker 3 (57:43):
Culture, stupidity at its highest level, Like at some point
it's like this is stupid, right, and I mean it
now sits at the highest level. The science jack is over.
Speaker 1 (58:02):
Yeah, so that really brings up. So both of you
are just really bringing up for me because I called
him fellon number thirty four forty seven, thirty four for
the number of felony counts that he's been convicted of,
and then forty seven because he is currently we can
have it as a forty seventh president of the United States.
I was just thinking about it earlier today, a convicted felon,
(58:26):
a crook, and a criminal is really being given allowance
to use the Oval Office as his stay out of
jail card because if it weren't for that, he would
be in jail. And then for me, my particular thorn
and This is something that has been going on for years.
But the way media polices and incarcer rates queer voices,
(58:56):
voices of color, and voices of descent, particularly when you
look at the disparate ways that certain accounts get blocked
or restricted, where as others are allowed to run free.
And then what gives you joy?
Speaker 2 (59:12):
What gives me joy is waking up black and gay
every day.
Speaker 3 (59:18):
Yeah, I think the biggest thing that gives me joy
is the fact that, for the first time really in
my life, time doesn't control me. I control time.
Speaker 1 (59:28):
I'm currently in a place of time, freedom and rest.
It was a really beautiful day in DC. I got
up and I went out for my morning walk, and
it was just the right temperature for me. It was
warm enough to where I could go outside without a
heavy jacket on or a coat, but it wasn't so
(59:49):
hot and humid to where I was drenched in sweat
by the time I reached the end of the block. Okay,
And then last one, what gives you hope?
Speaker 4 (59:58):
What gives me hope is that.
Speaker 2 (01:00:04):
The sun will always rise tomorrow, that there is life,
there is death, that nature always wins, and that somewhere
in this universe the reality shit show that is Earth
(01:00:29):
hopefully is getting a lot of ratings on another planet.
What's giving me hope is historically we have dealt with tyrants.
If you just look at the longevity of certain tyrants
from the past, it's usually less than ten years of
the tyranny. And so if you look at the current time,
(01:00:52):
we've been dealing with a big, particular tyrant. If history
continues to repeat itself, then I think we're on a
particular track. But just with certain things that are starting
to really fall apart at the scenes, it does seem like,
oh yeah, this is this and I'm very spiritual in
these last couple of weeks, the things have been falling apart.
(01:01:13):
You gotta just be hopeful that the path follows what
the path needs to follow.
Speaker 1 (01:01:19):
The community gives me hope because there's only one way
we're going to get through this, and that's together. So
that's kind of my hope. And with that it This
has been another episode of Hello Black, Hello Queer, Hello Christian.
I want to thank my guests for joining us today.
(01:01:40):
I want to thank you all for joining us today.
Please like, please comment, please subscribe, please share so we
can keep this wonderful experience going. Thank you to the
good people at our Heart who keep the lights on
here as we've prepare to say goodbye. Just would like
to give my guests the floor so that they could
share anything upcoming that they want the folks to know about.
(01:02:05):
Thank you so much, Joseph, you are always a delight
and I love talking culture with you. Your listeners can
follow me on Instagram and most social media at Rashidipedia.
My website is rashiddarden dot com and I just dropped
a novel called A Peculiar Legacy, the story of a
worshiping community in Northeast DC that has new neighbors in
(01:02:29):
the form of the misters Gaffney Bruce, and they discover
a lot of peculiar traditions among this community. And it's
about the youth, it's about the future, it's about gentrification,
it's about God, it's about love. And I would love
for your listeners to give it a read. And it
is available wherever books are sold. Yep, yeah for me.
Speaker 3 (01:02:53):
Let's see. I have my fourth book coming out in
December called There's Always Next Year, which was co written
with Leah Johnson. It is a black queer romantic comedy
that takes place all on New Year's Day, so the
entire book takes place in one day, which is very
hard to write but very fun to write. I could
be followed on at IMGM Johnson on Twitter, TikTok, Instagram, Facebook,
(01:03:18):
George M. Johnson or George Matthew Johnson. I might have
my full name up there because there's some family members
that didn't know that my first name was George because
they call me Matthew. So yeah, I have that going on.
And yeah, I'll actually be in DC for Pride to
the DC Public Library doing a speaking engagement with Tweaky
(01:03:39):
Puochi Garsong.
Speaker 1 (01:03:41):
This conversation was a reminder that the intersection of faith, queerness,
and blackness is not a contradiction. It's a calling. As
George said, I get to wake up and do what
I love, and Rashid reminded us that waking up black
(01:04:02):
and gay is joy. If this episode spoke to your soul,
share it with someone, leave us a five star rating
and review, Share it on your socials, in your book
club as well as your group chat, and keep showing
up boldly beautifully in your full identity. Rate and review
(01:04:26):
the podcast. Start a conversation with someone about it, and
most importantly, keep showing up as you, all of you
until next time. Take care of yourselves in your piece
of the world, and know that I love you very
very very very much. Amen.
Hella Black, Hello, Queer, Hello Christian is a production of
iHeart Podcasts on the Outspoken Network. Show me how good
is going to get today? God, Dear Universe, you have
permission to amaze me today. I am a beautiful and
blessed being who deserves great things always. I love my
(00:21):
life and I am thankful for my life. I am
safe and I have everything I need. Show me how
good is going to get today? God, Dear Universe, you
have permission to amaze me today. I am a beautiful
and blessed being who deserves great things always. I love
my life and I am thankful for my life. I
(00:42):
am safe and I have everything I need. Something amazing
is going to happen for me today. I invited George
(01:04):
and Rashid because they model something we don't talk about enough,
what it means to shape the culture through your words,
your lens, and your courage. Their work lives at the
intersection of personal truth, political insight, and creative power, and
they both carved out past that makes space for others
(01:26):
to do the same. In this episode, we talk about
the craft and cost of telling the truth, the role
of writing, and survival, what it means to be a
storyteller who's also a witness, and how creative expression becomes
a record of resistance and joy not just for us,
(01:47):
but for generations coming behind us. By the end, you'll
walk away with a deeper understanding of what it takes
to write honestly and live even more honesty in a
world that doesn't always want you to. Well, Hello everybody,
and welcome to another episode of Hella Black, Hella Queer,
(02:10):
Hello Christian, a fully black, fully queer, fully human, fully
divine podcast around society, culture, and other fresh fried nigga
shit I feel like talking about with my dope ass friends.
I am your host once again, Joseph Freese. My pronouns
are they them? So let us get this show started
(02:31):
by moving into our church announcements. A little bit of
heavy news, but we still rejoice. I just want to
take this church announcement segment to remember and to celebrate
the life of Andy Bay. So for those of you
who may not know or did not know who Andy
(02:51):
Bay was, Andy Bay was an American jazz singer and
pianist who was known for having a wide vocal range.
Was known for having a four octave baritone voice. Who
was born in Newark, on October twenty eighth, nineteen thirty nine.
He worked on the nineteen fifty nine nineteen sixty television
show Star Time with Connie Francis, and then he sang
(03:14):
for people like Louis Jordan and then at the age
of seventeen, he formed a trio with his siblings Saloon
Bay and Gerald Deane Bay, called Andy and the Bay Sisters.
The trio went on a sixteen month towards Europe. The
jazz trumpeter Check Baker's nineteen eighty eight documentary Let's Get
Last includes footage of Bay and his sisters delighting a
(03:34):
Parisian audience, and then the trio recorded three albums, one
for RCA Victor in nineteen sixty one and two for
Prestige in nineteen sixty four in nineteen sixty five before
breaking up in nineteen sixty seven and then by also
worked for Horace Silver and Gary Barts. Bay was opened
(03:54):
to gay and in nineteen ninety four he was diagnosed
as HIV positive, but continued his career, maintaining a lifestyle
that included yoga and a vegetarian diet, and then he
was a longtime resident of Chelsea, and around about April
the twenty six of this year, and he passed away,
(04:15):
and I wasn't that familiar with him, but I saw,
like a lot of friends, a lot of people that
I respect, sharing the news of his passing away, and
it caused me to look up to him and get
into him more. And I really felt that it was
important to highlight him on this episode because so many
of our icons as like black gay people, black queer people,
(04:36):
black LGBDQ people, and then especially as like black queer,
gay bisexual men, you don't know a lot of our
ancestors and a lot of our blueprint we don't know.
So I really do feel like it was important to
highlight Andy and give him his flowers as an ancestor,
even if I wasn't able to give it to him
(04:57):
as an elder. Because for him to be eighty five
years old, born in nineteen thirty eight, diagnosed as positive
in nineteen ninety four, I can only imagine the things
he saw, the things he lost, the people he lost,
the battle scars he endured. But to be, you know,
(05:19):
a black gay pas man who lives almost to see
ninety where probably so many of his peers and colleagues
did not get to live to see old age. Definitely
do think that that's something to celebrate. So Andy, we
wish you safe passage, rest in peace, rest in power,
(05:40):
and all that goodness. We talk about the spaces that
raised us, libraries, campuses, chosen families, and what it meant
to move from simply existing in them to actively shaping them.
More on that right after this. Welcome back to Hella Black,
(06:20):
Hello Queer, Hello Christian. I'm Joseph Fries in conversation with
George M. Johnson and Rashi Darted, tracing the moments that
shaped us and the ones we decided to shape ourselves.
Let's get back into it. I'm looking, I'm looking toward
the vestibule and I see some guests. So we're gonna
(06:41):
let our guests in and we're gonna allow them to
introduce themselves. Rashi, we can begin with you, and then
George we can go to you.
Speaker 2 (06:49):
Thank you so much for having me here. As you know,
in the in the Quaker faith, you can worship anywhere, anytime,
and like many denominations, the church is the people and
not necessarily the building. My name is Rashie Darden, born
and raised in Washington, d C. Currently an expat in Conway,
North Carolina, where I've been living a rural lifestyle for
(07:11):
the past five or six years. I'm a novelist first
and foremost. I'm active in my faith community, the Religious
Society of Friends, also known as the Quakers, and I'm
just happy to be here. There's a lot about my
identities and my life and my lives that I'm happy
to share with you today.
Speaker 3 (07:29):
Hello everyone. My name is Georgian Johnson, go by day
then pronouns New York Times bestselling author of a book,
All Boys Aren't Blue. I've also written two books following that,
one called We Are Not Broken, which is a story
about my grandmother, as well as Flamboyant, there's a story
about the queer Harlem Renaissance. Also work in television and film.
(07:50):
Used to do a lot of activism within HIV work
as well as just black LGBTQ rights and culture. I
spend most of my time in Los Angeles. I'm pretty
much bycoastal at this point, but I enjoy writing like
writing to me isn't work. It's like my chosen purpose.
Grateful that I get to wake up every day and
(08:13):
do what it is that I love to do. And
and not always feel like work.
Speaker 1 (08:17):
These are two individuals that have known me and I
have known them for a long time. As far as Rashied,
I remember preparing to come to DC and preparing to,
you know, start my journey at Howard back in two
thousand and eight, and this book called Lazarus comes across
(08:42):
my site and my knowledge of seeing and I just
remember that with Rashid, even though things have changed, I
have changed, I have grown, but really him being a
possibility model as far as what it could mean to
be gay and a member of a Black Greek letter
(09:03):
organization and Rashid, I really don't think you get your
flowers in the way that you should, in the way
that there are conversations that are starting to germinate and
starting to happen now around Black Greek letter organizations, the
way that people are initiated into Black Greek Letter organizations,
(09:24):
issues of gender and sexuality within Black Greek Letter organizations,
and just a celebrator of the culture, because I don't
just know Rashid as a also, but I also know
Rashid as a photographer and how Rashid really dedicated themselves
to like documenting an archiving the like the probates of
(09:47):
Black Greek letter organization within the DC area. And even
though like that part of my life has changed where
that's not necessarily something I aspire to as much as
I want, I'm definitely glad that we were able to
cross paths and I was still able to gain you
as a friend. And then me and George both spent
(10:10):
time working at US helping US people into Living, which
is an iconic HIV AID service organization here in the
DC metro area, and I would just see George coming
in working in the finance department doing what he could
as far as his day job from that perspective, but
getting to read first drafts of some of George's earlier works,
(10:33):
and then seeing you know, George really take that leap
and really move in to being a writer, moving to
writing around books and television, and just to see him
now as me and them both during our time at
US helping us be kind of like encountered a whole
lot of folks with a whole lot of should have
could have wooders, to quote Sheryl Lee Routh from Sister
(10:53):
Act too, but to really see him as someone who
really took those should have could have Wooders and really
manifested it into something tangible. Has just always been a
great inspiration for me. So before we move into the
main conversation, do have some icebreaker questions that I want
us to answer, because this week's episode is called Reading
(11:15):
Rainbrow Reading Rainbow. If I can get my words together
and get them out, and we're just really going to
be talking about literature, the local library and the role
it played in our lives as black queer men. So
if you could give a commencement speech anywhere, where would
it be? And the second question is what is your
(11:38):
favorite TV theme song?
Speaker 2 (11:41):
So I must say I'm loyal to a fault to
my various institutions, and one of those institutions is Georgetown University,
where I got my undergraduate degree, and I want to
speak there first. Alma Mater is highest Mother, and that's
where I got a lot of my starts and some
(12:03):
stops as a writer, and just putting on that blue
and gray get up for an honorary degree that would
be the bees' nes for me. In another life, I
want to be a trustee at the University of the
District of Columbia also, so that's a whole different thing. Like,
I really I'm loyal to my city and I want
to see it when every time. In terms of theme songs,
(12:26):
I was born in seventy nine, so I grew up
with a lot of these shows. I really can't decide
between the facts of life and give me a Break.
I was looking over the lyrics to give Me a
Break today and I was just I was really thinking,
this don't match the premise of this show at all,
but it's still super catchy. And people that know me
(12:49):
really well know that I'm pretty obsessed with nel Carter
and think she was taking from us way too soon.
Speaker 3 (12:55):
Yeah, I guess for me, I guess I would probably
want to speak first at my alma mater to Virginia
Union University and Richmond, Virginia School, founded in eighteen sixty
five on a former slave jail called Lumpkins Jail. It's
called the Hollow Grounds for a reason because it was
in Confederate Territory and again one of the first schools,
(13:16):
well the oldest HBCU that was built in the South, well,
the first hbc you built in the South.
Speaker 4 (13:22):
I just think it has a.
Speaker 3 (13:22):
Lot of history there, and I mean, for me, as
a black queer student who went there. I think to
kind of return to that very sacred place for me
to give a commencement speech would ultimately be like a
dream of mine.
Speaker 1 (13:36):
I guess.
Speaker 3 (13:36):
If it came to theme songs, I love them and
single I watch it every day, so it is one
of my favorite theme songs. But I do think my
favorite theme song is the theme song to a Men
that's always just been I don't mean they have double
dutch in it, like they're jumping rope and the opening scene,
and anybody who knows me knows I love the double
dutch and jump rope. So I just really had always
(13:56):
connected not just to the theme song, but also to
like the opening entrance.
Speaker 1 (14:00):
Sherman Hemsley, you took mine. Shout out to Andre Crouch,
gospel legend who produced that, and then gospel legend Vanessa
Bell Armstrong who was the female vocalist on that. And
then kind of speaking to our black queer elders, shout
out to Sherman Hemsley. We don't talk about it as much,
(14:21):
but you know, you know it has been you know, disclosed,
you know that he was family. Okay, so since you
took a man, what I'm gonna use as a theme
song is the period when Patty LaBelle sang the theme
song for Oprah. So get with the program, Get with Oprah,
(14:42):
and just really think her story is so great because
it's almost like, I don't think you could have a
career like Patti Labelle's today to where she really came
into her prominence later in her career, and she really
(15:03):
came into prominent storing kind of like the Legends period
of her career. I just think that it's just wonderful
that as a woman who as a black woman R
and B singer who was in her fifties at that time,
that there was a period from ninety five, ninety six
to ninety seven and ninety eight that every day at
four pm you heard her voice on the television. Going
(15:27):
to have a little fun with the commencement question, because yes,
of course I would like to be able to return
to Howard get my degree and then one day give
commencement there and get like an honorary degree or something
like that. But when I think of my most honest
answer to that question is starting with hello black, Hello queer,
(15:47):
Hello Christians, starting with this podcast. Really being able to
get to this Splatateau. It's kind of like a professional
shit talker, whether it be stand up comedy, whether it
be podcaster, to where I can go on tour, and
then as part of that tour, I would do two
stops in New York. I would do a stop at
my elementary school, so shout out to arch Street Elementary
(16:08):
and Freeport, New York. And I would do a stop
at high school, so shout out to Ellenville High School
in Ellville, New York. And I would combine those two
stops to kind of like do a Netflix or an
HBO special. I feel like the ice has been broken,
and I feel like we can move into the main
(16:28):
segment of this week's episode. From public libraries to chosen
family rooms. These spaces formed us, but more than that,
we started to shape them in our image. More on
that after the break, we're back picking up where we
(17:07):
left off on what it means to take up space
and leave a mark once again. Name of this episode
is called Reading Rainbow, and we're going to be talking
about literature books in the public library and how it
played a role in our lives because in this moment
where those platforms are being attacked and particularly being attacked
(17:29):
for the ways that there are places of knowledge and
liberation and diversity and equity inclusion. I just really felt
like this was an important discussion to have. So the
first question I wanted to ask you, Well, there's three
parts to it. So first of all, what was the
name of your childhood library did you visit, and if so,
(17:52):
how did it help you form yourself? And then was
there a staff person you had a relationship with.
Speaker 2 (17:58):
So I'm a native Washington, as I mentioned, and I
think I forgot to mention my pronouns or he him.
My neighborhood library was LeMond Riggs Library near back of
Junior High School near Fort Totten metro station, and I
remember the library being so clean and so physically cool,
(18:18):
like it was in the summer. It was just a
nice place to be. I didn't have any particular staff
members at that library that were formative for me, but
the act of walking in as an elementary school student
and walking out with like fifteen children's books and then
(18:43):
reading them all, like there was a point where my
mom was like, we're going to stop going if you
keep reading them all the first night.
Speaker 1 (18:50):
You get home.
Speaker 2 (18:52):
But really it wasn't that. I was reading too fast.
They obviously weren't challenging enough. So the people that were
formative to me were my school librarians. Mss Lawrence at
Bunker Hill Elementary School was one of them. She was
the first librarian that I came in the room and
(19:12):
I said, do we have such and such a book?
Speaker 4 (19:15):
And I think it was a.
Speaker 2 (19:16):
Book that had been on reading rainbow and it was
The Little House. And I said, do you have that?
Do you have the Little House? And she says, ah,
the Little House, And she like whips it out like
it's like it was being filmed, and she reads the
book to us, and that was really cool. The second
influential person was not only the school librarian, but she
(19:37):
was like the gifted and talented coordinator for literature and
uh in general in gen pop if you will like,
in seeing her around the school and in the on
the school yard. She wasn't a warm lady. Her name
was Betty Dowling, Betty Jones Dowling, and I'll explain why
that's important in a minute. But she was the one
(19:59):
that pushed us to rigor. She put us on the
Junior Great Books program. We had to do reports and
we really dived deeply into literature with her, and as
I found out later in life, Betty Jones Dowling was
the granddaughter of Eugene Kinkel Jones, one of the founders
(20:20):
of Alpha Phi Alpha. And when I learned that about her,
learning her pedigree, I understood why there was that kind
of professional distance. She was not a warm and fuzzy educator.
She was about the business, and you could tell her
her bearing through that demeanor. But the school librarian was
(20:40):
for sure the most formative person for me. And I've
always liked books, bookstores, libraries, all that stuff.
Speaker 1 (20:49):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (20:49):
For me, our library is called the Plainfield Public Library,
so it's pretty simple, the Plainfield Public Library. I actually
have a lifetime card to the Plainfield Public Library. Didn't
event in my honor, and I also got a proclamation
from my city as well as a proclamation from Union County,
New Jersey at the library. For me, the playing for
Public Library was like a great place. I was a
(21:10):
loner as a kid, so I didn't have like a
huge circle of friends, and so I could just go
to the library and read all the time. I liked history.
I loved anything historical, from Witches of Salem to anything
dealing with slavery. I enjoyed reading just about the past
and processing it with where I was in the presence.
(21:34):
I think that the library for me was like one
of the first places that gave me agency. It was
like I had my own card, I had my own
process of what books I could choose. I could find
my own spot in the library to do my own
work research all of those things. I feel like the
library is also one of those places that helps build
children and young adults a sense of agency around responsibilities,
(21:57):
especially because you have to turn a book in on time.
So it kind of was like that first entryway into
not going to say adulthood, but adult ting.
Speaker 1 (22:06):
Like it gave a.
Speaker 3 (22:07):
Child a sense of structure and a system of how
things worked, which is the same way that once you
do become an adult. That's how bills work, that's how
so many other things works out, your debit guard works,
it's how like you know, and so yeah, for me,
it was that I wouldn't say that I had a
specific person or a specific librarian who helped me out
(22:30):
with things. I was pretty I was like I am today.
Like I said, as a loaner, I was pretty independent
when it came to just how I moved in any way.
But what I will say is the library always felt
like a very welcome place. All of the people who
work there back then and the people who still work
there now are very very helpful in many ways. With
(22:52):
me having a band book and right now currently the
most banned book in the country, I am constantly meeting
the librarians as we're all fighting against it, and so
a library now for me, even as an adult, is
a safe space for me as someone who is writing
books that they're trying to take off of shells. To
watch librarians really be superheroes in the space over the
(23:14):
past four or five years has been a really full
circle moment because they really do understand what's happening with
the mindset of so many people who walk through those
rooms just based off of what they're checking out, and
so they in many ways are the entry point for
a lot of people who are dealing with a lot
of issues and they're not listening. Again, libraries will tell
(23:37):
you we're not therapists, but we do know what is
going on pretty much with all of our clients based
off of what they're pulling off of shells, and so
they do become that first line of safety for so
many people, depending on what topics it is that they
may be afraid to talk to their parents about. The
librarian is always that person that has that open mind
(23:57):
to help them. And so I'm just grateful that all
of the libraryans who I come in contact with just
have that same sense of building the agency of those
of us, especially the young readers.
Speaker 1 (24:08):
Yep, thank you so much for sharing that. Both of you,
Thank you so much for your sharing. My childhood library
was the Freeport Memorial Library, and it was on one
forty and it still is on one forty four West
Merrick Road, Freeport, New York, one one five two oh
Nassau County, Long Island, and the McDonald's and one of
(24:32):
my favorite pizza shops was across the street from the
Memorial Library. And when I think about that library, I
think about summertime and how during the summers that library
really did service kind of like my daycare center. I
would walk up there, and so I've always been an
(24:54):
old soul, So I was never going to the children's section.
I was going to the adult section, and then I
was going downstairs to where the music biographies were check
out these books about Diana Ross. I would check out
these books around Motown. I would check out these books
around Tina Turner music from the sixties, and I would
(25:14):
just go to the copy machine and I would just
copy like the pictures of like the singers that I
looked up to, and then I would go home and
like I would like scrap book them. So like that's
kind of like what the library experience was for me
growing up, and kind of like the basement of that
library just kind of like looking up all those books.
(25:37):
Really birst who I am as a pop culture nerd
to where people just are always like, well, like, how
do you know all these facts? How do you know
about all these albums? How do you know about this
and that and the thing? And I just tell them,
growing the little colored homosexual, the public library was my
friend in my adolescence when I started to really name
for myself that I was saying sex attracted, I was gay,
(26:00):
was QUREI was homosexual? Really using the exchange program and
this time I'm upstate in Elephant, New York, so shout
out to the Eleville Public Library. So I would kind
of like use their intersystem loan program to get those
books by Elin Harris, get those books by James L. Hardy,
get those books by Keep Boykin, One More River to Cross,
(26:21):
Black and Gay in America, even get those books like
Brother The Brother and In the Life, so that I
could really kind of like start to learn myself, in
form myself. So that's kind of like my answer to
that question, and it kind of leads into my second question,
When did you first see yourself in a book? And
have you ever seen yourself in a book?
Speaker 2 (26:41):
So I was one of those and I'm sorry, Joseph.
I was just really thinking about the trust that you
must have established with your librarians in order to do
an interlibrary loan for Elin Harris's novels and whatnot, because
I'm sure different people might have been afraid to do that.
So I think that's a testament not only to your courage,
(27:03):
but to the professionalism of the people handling that with you.
I was one of those weird kids that would race
bend almost everything I would read. And so I remember
especially reading The Vampire Diaries and just deciding they were black,
(27:24):
and I would just read the parts that would say,
you know, like, oh, Hazel eyes.
Speaker 4 (27:28):
I'm like, yeah, I knew a girl with hazel.
Speaker 2 (27:30):
Eyes because I wanted to read what I wanted to read,
and I didn't. I didn't think I should have to
wait a lifetime to read a book about black vampires.
So I just made the vampires black in my head.
But when I got older, I realized, Okay, if you're
going to run, you got to write the black vampire book,
because at thirty they still weren't being written. So that's
(27:52):
what I did. But when I first really saw myself,
and I remember Coolidge High School about ninety five ninety six,
the girls were outside on the bleachers taking turns with
Elin Harris's Invisible Life, and it was the first time
I had heard of a black gay novel. It was
(28:13):
like what And they're like, sure, you should read it,
and like nobody was, you know, clocking me back then necessarily,
nor was it a test. But they handed it to
me and I said, oh, I can't read this, and
I'm reading it like I can't stop reading it. So
I ended up going down to be Dalton and getting
my own. Once I knew that there were more Elin
Harris novels and James L. Hardy novels, and that there
(28:38):
was Lambda Rising Bookstore in DuPont Circle in DC, and
then realizing that there was a whole generation of black
queer authors before Elin Harris and poets and everything that
was a very I feel so blessed and so grateful
(28:58):
to have come of it in an era where there
was a back catalog of black queer books, that there
was contemporary black queer books, and as you and I
have spoken before, Joseph, that we also became adults in
this explosion of black gay media on television and in
(29:19):
magazines and in movies and even in the pornography. We
consume there was a diversity of things that were available.
God bless and Rique Cruz.
Speaker 1 (29:28):
Yeah, I've gotten that question a lot.
Speaker 3 (29:31):
It's very interesting. It's like, I feel like I've read
a lot about our experiences. I don't know if I've
read about anything that has really talked to me to
make me feel like who I am? Per se, I know,
I damn sure it didn't. During childhood or young adulthood,
I felt that I gravitated to people like Langston Hughes,
and I gravitated to people like count A Cullen, which
(29:52):
was always interesting because they never told me about their queerness.
But there was something about the way that they wrote
that spoke to my queerness. So it was like and
I feel like that was like me understanding coded language
in a way that it was speaking. In the ways
in which they wrote it felt very coded to me
(30:13):
in a way that I understand as someone who was
having to code switch to try and not really fit
in but out of a way of survival with how
effeminate I was. And so I did find myself really
leaning heavily into both of their work as a young adult. Unfortunately,
I also went to Catholic school, so there was not
(30:34):
a variety of anything that looked like me. And as
I've stated to my love of writing books came from
my hatred of having to read the ones that I
was forced to read for summer programs and things. Catching
the Rite, I just think it's an absolutely horrible book.
I think it is a great teaching tool, but a
terrible book. I think it's the holding call fields of
(30:56):
the world that I had to read about that forced
me to really know, like, Okay, if people have to
read about holding Call Field, they should also have to
read about who I am and what I go through
and what my experiences are and what our experiences are
as well. And so of course I think, you know,
twenties and thirties, that's when I was able to get
(31:18):
into the HIV writers and all of those who unfortunately
passed away, but the Marlon Briggs and all of their work.
And then of course I'm grateful that he's like an
older brother to me, but Darnell Moore being able to
get into his not just get into his work, but
also be mentored by him and be in many ways,
(31:40):
I don't want to say it like chosen, but be
chosen by him to usher me into something that he
saw in me, Like he saw that I was supposed
to be this writer, and he helped sharpen my iron,
and so grateful to that.
Speaker 1 (31:55):
Again.
Speaker 3 (31:56):
Keith Boyken, who's another dear friend, is another one who
I've just learned so much from. I'm grateful that I
got to work under doctor Ron Simmons and that I
also have Phil Wilson as like two of my mentors
and made Ron rest in peace. But Ron was really
adamant about me writing. Once he read an article I wrote.
(32:17):
He was just adamant that I had to like because
Ron was a writer and used to show me some
of his writings, and I just thought they were brilliant
and they were so radical for what he was doing
in the seventies with his Faggot Chronicles is what they
were called, and he was called the fat Chronicles, and
he was just going so hard back then, and it
really inspired me. And so so yeah, but I do
(32:39):
think now it is beautiful that this next generation, like
there's so much out there for them, it's almost hard
to not feel seen now, whereas it used to be
the reverse. It's like there's so many texts out there
that we can ensure that the majority of populations are
being seen. Finally, in books.
Speaker 2 (32:59):
Ron was an art supporter of a lot of gay
black writers. He made a point whenever I saw him
at DC Black Pride or you know, other stuff that
wasn't author related, he would just kind of point and.
Speaker 4 (33:12):
Say, I know you, I have your books.
Speaker 2 (33:15):
And it's especially when you're independently published. There's just no
better feeling than knowing, Wow, somebody out there that's buying
my stuff and speaking well.
Speaker 1 (33:25):
Yeah in that unmistakable voice that was signaturely Ron's, I
want to say. And I wasn't really able to realize
it until I became an adult, but I have to
say one of the first times that I really saw
myself seen in a book and really found myself relating
and connecting to someone in a book. Back to the
(33:48):
music thing. Patty Labelle's autobiography her memoir Don't Block the Blessings,
which was released in nineteen ninety six and was co
written with Lord B. Randolph, who I believe was the
editor for Everity magazine at that time. Really seeing her
and seeing myself in her as someone who was recognized
(34:08):
as talented, but also as they started to walk into
their talent kind of always having to navigate being told
that they were too much and they needed to tone
it down. Someone who was talented and who had this
gifted voice, but did not grow up feeling physically attractive
(34:28):
or physically pretty or physically beautiful. For Patty, it was
her nose. For me, it's always been like my teeth.
So really seeing myself in her in that really through
that book and reeting her story, being able to see
her and identify her as kind of like my Deva Orisha,
(34:51):
and even looking at the law she experienced. As far
as you know, she lost both her parents before she
was forty. I've lost both mine before I was forty,
so just really looking at her, at her life story,
and that's kind of like the first time I really
saw myself kind of like in a public figure and
(35:14):
like I saw myself and not someone that I was
aspiring to be. And then from the black gay aspect,
I really do have to say James Earl Hardy and
his character Mitchell Crawford and like that Bee Boy Blue
series because you know, seeing Mitchell Crawford and I've expanded
(35:35):
and I've grown, but like as a hormonal fifteen sixteen
year old besexual, I was definitely into the rough types
and like the thugs and kind of like those really
like hip hop coded men because I'm reading James A.
Hardy while coming of age and seeing people like Michael K.
Williams portray Omar on the Wire and kind of like
(35:58):
seeing the whole discussion of the homo thug and like
really kind of like seeing like and then it's like
I started my club going days as black gay night
life really transitioned from kind of like house and disco
and R and B and Vogue and kind of like
we I kind of see myself as far like that
(36:20):
first generation of one of those first generations that really
saw like gay clubs have hip hop nights and really
kind of like start to cater to kind of like
that hip hop community. So to see Mitchell Crawford, you know,
as this more effeminate black gay man who was more
into masculine men, who also like loved a lot of
(36:41):
the singers that I loved, that was kind of like
the first time that I just really remember seeing myself
in literature as a as a black queer person becoming Joseph.
Speaker 4 (36:51):
Did you experience The Delta in DC when it was open?
Speaker 1 (36:55):
I didn't, and I regret it because one of the
big shifts of coming to DC from New York City
is experiencing public transportation that stopped.
Speaker 2 (37:10):
Running yeap with a car to get to Yeah, the
Delta was a club that played house upstairs and hip
hop in the basement.
Speaker 3 (37:19):
It was a safety hazard because you couldn't get out
if a fire happened. There was only one entry in
one exit.
Speaker 4 (37:24):
Yep, but well worth the risk.
Speaker 1 (37:27):
And it was like the after spot because you know,
for me, I experienced the Mill okay to where like
doing like the Mills heyday on Saturday nights, and then
really during the mills hey day, even on Thursday nights
as well, you would have the house room over to
(37:49):
the side and then kind of like that big room
downstairs was kind of like the hip hop R and
B room. So I didn't experience the delta, but I
did the mill because it would kind of be like, Okay,
I could go to the mill, but then I knew
I needed to start making my way down to Eastern
Market so I could catch that last train that would
(38:12):
get me back over northwest to Howard. Yeah, what was
the first book you remember reading about blackness? Reading about queerness,
and then reading about black queerness.
Speaker 2 (38:22):
So the first book I remember reading about blackness and
I did answer black queerness was Elin Harris's novels. The
first black book I remember reading was Mufaro's Beautiful Daughters
children's books set in Africa, and was a reading rainbow book.
(38:43):
And surely there had to have been others, but actually
there might have been another. There was a children's novel
called Sister by Eloise Greenfield that I remember blackness being
very prominent in that and it deal there. Well, I
guess it's not a spoiler of the book is forty
years old, but it deals with the loss of a parent,
at sudden loss of a parent. It deals with a
(39:06):
lot of just hard for me to not conflate blackness
with urbanness because my blackness is urban and was urban and.
Speaker 4 (39:13):
Now it's rurals.
Speaker 2 (39:14):
But I remember reading those books and that was kind
of the gateway to blackness and all other forms of
literature to be followed. The first gay stuff I remember reading,
I don't know. It must have been from the back
section of a downtown periodical shop, like a magazine or something.
(39:36):
Thank God for Elin Harris, Thank God for James o'hardy
and everybody that came after.
Speaker 3 (39:42):
Yeah, I think for me, probably the first time I
recalled reading The Black Book read the third or fourth
grade because my teacher was Miss Pavis and I had
to do a book report on Malcolm X. I remember
that one specifically because we had to make these out.
It was very strange. But I wasn't gifted, so they
was always pushing us to do something that made no
(40:02):
sense that they thought made us gifted and talented. So
I do remember it was Malcolm X. But I do
like the first book that I really I think read
and like really internalized. Was when I was in the
sixth grade gifted and talented and they had us read
three Negro classics. That was when I really was starting
to be like, okay, like I understand this fully and
(40:25):
I feel this fully. I think that was like for me,
like starting to connect the dots of like the stories
that my grandmother and great grandmother would tell us with
the actual past that we had, right, And so I
think that was really when I started to tap into
my blackness. And then I went to middle school. Max
in middle school, and I had a teacher there who
(40:46):
several teachers included Miss Lynn. She was my math teacher,
but I still text her to this day. She just
texted me the other day, but she was very adamant
about us as black kids really understanding our blackness, Like
she was adamant about it. Of the teachers that were there.
That was the first time where I had all black
teachers in middle school, and they were just very very
adamant about us learning our history. I feel the same
(41:09):
way when it comes to like black queerness, Like I'm
not sure what the first thing I read was that
included it, but I feel the same way that probably
was more on the article side, like reading through articles
or periodicals or something where I was able to kind of.
Speaker 4 (41:28):
Tap into it.
Speaker 3 (41:29):
But it could have also been BGC Live for those
who don't remember it. In addition to it being an
app where you could connect the people and hook up,
they had what was called the BGC Forum, and there
were a lot of stories that were written in this forum,
like that was like erotica and like all of these
other things. But the forum was probably one of the
first places that I actually started to read about people's
(41:52):
queer experiences because some of them were just fictional stories.
Some of them were like true stories of like what
they were hooking up or what they were doing, what
they were going through. So I do probably think it
was probably the BGC Live forum was really where I
got my first introduction because I was like twenty one
at the time, so it was like two thousand and
sixty thousand and seven when I really got on to
BGC Live. That was probably like my first real start
(42:15):
with interactions of stories.
Speaker 4 (42:18):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (42:18):
So funny that you would bring up BGC live because
there was a website. It was like blackmen dot net
or blackmen dot com, and it was like people would
like post like black gay erotica, so that was kind
of like an introduction for me, and then much liked George.
When I was a teenager, I kind of did like
(42:40):
my customary black male reading of the Order biography of
Malcolm X, which in all honesty, I kind of now
I kind of think it's somewhat overrated. But that first
really black book where I kind of locked in and
kind of like instilled black pride or even revolutionary radicalism
for me was Huey P. Newton's Revolutionary Suicide. And then
(43:02):
I also remember getting into like ghetto lit around that time,
so like Iceberg, Slim, Donald Goins, I came up during
kind of like the initial push of like Sister Soldier's
Coldest whenever. And then even if we're gonna talk about
kind of like that early two thousands period of kind
(43:22):
of like ghetto lit or urban lit or street lit
kind of even like harkening back to James or Hardy,
I really don't think that he gets a lot of
credit for being a part of that genre as a
gay person, because B Boy Blues could definitely be looked
at it as kind of like hood lit in its
own way. And then I'm even gonna take it as
(43:45):
a step further, because really, if we're gonna talk about
like literature or printing publications, that really helped me come
into my queerness and Rahi, you had even spoken earlier
kind of like around the porn aspect, but really kind
of like the moment that kind of like really helped
me to say yes is that when I, as a
sixteen year old, went into a Hudson news stand at
(44:09):
Port Authority and bought a copy of Black Inches, which
was like this gay pornography magazine. And I remember taking
the bus back up state from Port Authority and being like,
you just went and picked up a gay, poor magazine,
and you paid for it with your money at the
(44:31):
very least your bisexual, if not full out gay, because
like you just did this, you know, in the light
of day, so like you definitely have same sex attraction
that you need to embrace and stop running away from.
Speaker 2 (44:46):
I okay, feel bad for the kids that don't. I
wonder if you get the same feeling when you go
to your first site or your first app because those
cloak and dagger missions going so place to buy something.
Speaker 1 (45:02):
Because it took me a good thirty to forty five
minutes to drum up the courage to walk up to
the counter. I almost missed my buzz going back. If
you're feeling this conversation, go ahead, like subscribe and share
it with someone who needs it. We're gonna take a
quick break here before we go. We're digging into what
(45:23):
stays with us, the lessons, the joy and the power
of owning our stories. More in a moment, we're back
(45:45):
one last time with George M. Johnson and Rashi Darted,
closing out with what it means to hold on to joy,
purpose and the community that raised us. Let's bring this
thing all home. What is that's a book that you
would recommend to a young black queer person today.
Speaker 2 (46:05):
Well, you know, I want to be gracious to all
of the fellow black gay queer by writers out there
and list a whole bunch of.
Speaker 4 (46:18):
Folks, But I'm gonna say me.
Speaker 2 (46:20):
I'muda say Rashie Dartan's Lazarus is a good place to
jump in if you are a young black queer person.
And what I realize I've done with my career over
the years is and my writing career and my career
as an educator, and all aspects of me I have
a soft spot in my heart for young adults. I
(46:42):
have a soft spot in my heart for teenagers. Don't
really want to be around them a whole lot, but
I understand that, just like I needed examples, that there
will always be people that need examples. And I hope
that the characters that I write that are in their
(47:04):
age group. Whether it's a college sophomore debating whether to
pledge his father's fraternity, or somebody about to get turned
out by some vampires or demi gods, or people contending
with their spiritual pathways, people learning about their gender identities
and supporting those around them as they learn their gender identities.
(47:28):
Find me Rashidipedia online, Rashid Darden on anywhere that.
Speaker 4 (47:34):
Books are sold.
Speaker 2 (47:36):
I know what it was to feel those things, and
I don't imagine that I'll ever be not writing about
the black queer experience. Besides the people that I've just mentioned,
there's of course Frederick Smith, who is killing it in
the romance genre. There are so many people, and there's
people yet to be discovered that are writing and perform
(48:00):
and might not have a deal and might not know
what's next for their careers.
Speaker 4 (48:05):
But if you no one, support them too.
Speaker 3 (48:09):
Yeah, that's a good question. I would probably say. I
feel like the obviously answer is my own book. But
it's so banned, it's just so out there. It's like,
you know, all Boys Aren't Blue is always going to
be considered a tool. I talked a lot of therapists
will use it on your practices when they're working with
(48:29):
black queer young adults, which was just something I never
thought about even when writing it. I think it's a
good book and it's a good learning tool. It's a
good entry point for black queer young adults who are
really trying to figure it out. And I've seen how
many people it has helped, just like through emails and
all of the times I went out to meet people.
(48:52):
And I also think when it comes to black we're
young adults, I would also say they should read Tony
Morris and works. I do think that there's something there
for all of us, Like she just writes in a
way that is very it's like universal and specific, which
is a very hard balance to hit, which I think
(49:14):
many of us struggle with as writers sometimes like how
do I make this a universal thing with specificity? But
I feel like Tony Morrison is just such a god.
She's just such an icon and at doing that though,
where you can feel felt in all of her stories
no matter what your background is and where you're from,
(49:35):
like it still feels like she is speaking directly to you.
And I actually do encourage more black where young adults
to really really read through the works of Tony Morrison
at the stake. That's been a great helpful tool throughout
my life.
Speaker 1 (49:50):
So I finally finished my first Tony Morrison novel, like,
I was finally able to sit and read below it
from cover to cover. So if I want to suggest
a book, I would suggest Burst of Light by Ugie Lord,
her book of essays, something that I would suggest because
(50:14):
if you're a young black queer person and really looking
to forge identity and looking for affirmation and validation, the
heavy lifting that black lesbian writers did cannot be overstated.
So that is going to wrap up the word and
now we're going to move into the benediction. We have
one more question forgive me and then we will move
(50:36):
into the benediction. Your dream film adaptation of a book
and who would you cast?
Speaker 2 (50:41):
Oh goodness, let me start with the casting first. I
used to do dreamcasting all the time, for my own
novels and what I realized, I just want to give
a young unknown a chance. And I've been watching Beyond
the Gates. I think there are some actors and actresses
on that show that are killing it. I need Sula
(51:04):
the movie. Just cannot understand why Sula is not a film.
And I'll say Joseph also, all Tony Morrison novels aren't
built the same. And I give you kudos for finishing beloved.
I think you would have enjoyed Sula earlier in your life.
Sula I would love to see become a movie. And
(51:26):
there are just plenty of black queer books out there
that deserve a shot as well.
Speaker 3 (51:31):
Yeah, that's an interesting question. It's like, what book do
I want to see as a movie? There's so many,
And actually it's kind of interesting because it's like there
are a lot of black books that are optioned that
never make it to the screen. And it's actually a
growing trend that we've been talking about for the last
couple of years. As I've also had a book that
(51:51):
was optioned for television that still has not made it
to screen, but I think that I would love to.
It is called Promise Boys. This is about a murder
that happens at a DC prep academy. This is by
Nick Brooks. I got to interview him at the Barnes
(52:11):
and Noble out here when he went on his first
book tour. It's a great murder mystery book for black kids.
It's just something that I would love to see adapted
and put on the screen.
Speaker 1 (52:22):
So I would love to see an adaptation of one
of Elin Harris's later books to feature Basil Henderson, because
I want Craig Melvin from The Today Show to be
cast as Basil Henderson, and I'm not worried about his
acting ability.
Speaker 4 (52:38):
Listen, and we don't judge. What are you looking forward
to looking forward to revolution?
Speaker 3 (52:45):
I would just simply say I am looking forward to
the midterm elections.
Speaker 1 (52:51):
Much like what you just I'm looking forward to us
getting to the other side of this. I'm looking forward
to us getting to the other side of this moment
in our country, getting to the other side of this
moment in our world, and I want to bring as
many of us with us. So what is one thing
(53:13):
you like about yourself?
Speaker 2 (53:14):
I like my intelligence, I like my sense of humor.
A year from today, I am slimmer richer and richer.
Speaker 1 (53:28):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (53:28):
A year from today, I would say I will probably
be completely bicoastal. My fourth book will have been released,
and if everything goes according to plan, I should be
in production for my first film. It's best to be exciting.
Speaker 1 (53:44):
A year from today, I want to be getting ready
to head out of town for a Mother's Day weekend.
What are you thankful for?
Speaker 4 (53:53):
I am thankful for my mother.
Speaker 2 (53:55):
I'm thankful for the sacrifices of my ancestors who come
from rural northeastern North Carolina. And I'm thankful for the
ones that made their way to Washington, d C. During
the Great Migration. And I'm thankful that nobody stopped me
when I wanted to come down home to where the
(54:16):
soil was fertile, creatively, spiritually, and familiarly.
Speaker 3 (54:22):
Yeah, I think today I'm very, very grateful for the
spirit of discernment, knowing when I need to make moves
versus knowing when I need to stay still and let
things move around me. And I think even more, I
am really really thankful for allowing myself to take the
(54:43):
time to learn myself and to understand that rest and
just so many other things are important in addition to
the work that I do, prioritizing those things just as
much as I prioritize certain other I guess material things.
Speaker 1 (55:00):
I am thankful for the musical legacy of Atlanta, Georgia.
We just celebrated thirty one years of Outcast debut album
So Southern Playlistic Cadillac Music, and then we just celebrated
the anniversary of Janelle Monage's Dirty Computer, and then we're
just hearing the news around Outcasts being inducted into the
(55:20):
Rock and Roll Hall of Fame, and it's just really
has me thinking about and focusing on the great creative
output from that one city and how the South truly
has had something to say for about the past thirty years.
Speaker 4 (55:34):
I am proud of.
Speaker 2 (55:39):
My ability to walk away from making a hasty decision,
and I am proud that I have been, as of
this past April, a self published author for twenty years
and following in the path of Elin Harris, but yet
forging my own way. I'm proud that I did it
my way.
Speaker 3 (56:01):
Yeah, I would have to say. Currently, I am very
proud of the resiliency of gen Z. I think they
have or they continue to impress me with their fight
with their just the ways in which they mobilize and galvanize,
which in many ways it's a lot differently from how
(56:22):
I was kind of raised to do in the nineties
during the big boom of like the black quote unquote
middle class, and you had the shows and you had
all these things, and it was kind of like about
conformity as a person who went through nine to eleven
and a housing crash and the stock market crash. Lineals
have been through a lot in this country, but one
(56:43):
thing we didn't have was school shooting like the way
they have. And there's just some things that mentally that
they go through that I'm just like, I would not
even want to go to school every day, Like this
is almost I just couldn't imagine like having that like
on your mind, with the type of trainings they have
to go through and shut downs and everything, and they
just continue to fight though, whether it's book bands, Roe v. Wade,
(57:04):
they show up in courtrooms, they walk out of school.
I'm just proud of their resilience, and I'm proud that
they look up to people in my generation as a
catalyst for why they take action.
Speaker 1 (57:16):
Yep, I'm proud of my own growth I'm just really
in a season where I'm just really realizing that I
may not be everything that I need to be or
everything that I want to be, but I'm not everything
that I used to be either, and that really counts
for something. So what is a thorn for you? What
(57:37):
is something that's really getting your goat at the moment?
Speaker 4 (57:40):
The unrelenting white supremacy.
Speaker 3 (57:43):
Culture, stupidity at its highest level, Like at some point
it's like this is stupid, right, and I mean it
now sits at the highest level. The science jack is over.
Speaker 1 (58:02):
Yeah, so that really brings up. So both of you
are just really bringing up for me because I called
him fellon number thirty four forty seven, thirty four for
the number of felony counts that he's been convicted of,
and then forty seven because he is currently we can
have it as a forty seventh president of the United States.
I was just thinking about it earlier today, a convicted felon,
(58:26):
a crook, and a criminal is really being given allowance
to use the Oval Office as his stay out of
jail card because if it weren't for that, he would
be in jail. And then for me, my particular thorn
and This is something that has been going on for years.
But the way media polices and incarcer rates queer voices,
(58:56):
voices of color, and voices of descent, particularly when you
look at the disparate ways that certain accounts get blocked
or restricted, where as others are allowed to run free.
And then what gives you joy?
Speaker 2 (59:12):
What gives me joy is waking up black and gay
every day.
Speaker 3 (59:18):
Yeah, I think the biggest thing that gives me joy
is the fact that, for the first time really in
my life, time doesn't control me. I control time.
Speaker 1 (59:28):
I'm currently in a place of time, freedom and rest.
It was a really beautiful day in DC. I got
up and I went out for my morning walk, and
it was just the right temperature for me. It was
warm enough to where I could go outside without a
heavy jacket on or a coat, but it wasn't so
(59:49):
hot and humid to where I was drenched in sweat
by the time I reached the end of the block. Okay,
And then last one, what gives you hope?
Speaker 4 (59:58):
What gives me hope is that.
Speaker 2 (01:00:04):
The sun will always rise tomorrow, that there is life,
there is death, that nature always wins, and that somewhere
in this universe the reality shit show that is Earth
(01:00:29):
hopefully is getting a lot of ratings on another planet.
What's giving me hope is historically we have dealt with tyrants.
If you just look at the longevity of certain tyrants
from the past, it's usually less than ten years of
the tyranny. And so if you look at the current time,
(01:00:52):
we've been dealing with a big, particular tyrant. If history
continues to repeat itself, then I think we're on a
particular track. But just with certain things that are starting
to really fall apart at the scenes, it does seem like,
oh yeah, this is this and I'm very spiritual in
these last couple of weeks, the things have been falling apart.
(01:01:13):
You gotta just be hopeful that the path follows what
the path needs to follow.
Speaker 1 (01:01:19):
The community gives me hope because there's only one way
we're going to get through this, and that's together. So
that's kind of my hope. And with that it This
has been another episode of Hello Black, Hello Queer, Hello Christian.
I want to thank my guests for joining us today.
(01:01:40):
I want to thank you all for joining us today.
Please like, please comment, please subscribe, please share so we
can keep this wonderful experience going. Thank you to the
good people at our Heart who keep the lights on
here as we've prepare to say goodbye. Just would like
to give my guests the floor so that they could
share anything upcoming that they want the folks to know about.
(01:02:05):
Thank you so much, Joseph, you are always a delight
and I love talking culture with you. Your listeners can
follow me on Instagram and most social media at Rashidipedia.
My website is rashiddarden dot com and I just dropped
a novel called A Peculiar Legacy, the story of a
worshiping community in Northeast DC that has new neighbors in
(01:02:29):
the form of the misters Gaffney Bruce, and they discover
a lot of peculiar traditions among this community. And it's
about the youth, it's about the future, it's about gentrification,
it's about God, it's about love. And I would love
for your listeners to give it a read. And it
is available wherever books are sold. Yep, yeah for me.
Speaker 3 (01:02:53):
Let's see. I have my fourth book coming out in
December called There's Always Next Year, which was co written
with Leah Johnson. It is a black queer romantic comedy
that takes place all on New Year's Day, so the
entire book takes place in one day, which is very
hard to write but very fun to write. I could
be followed on at IMGM Johnson on Twitter, TikTok, Instagram, Facebook,
(01:03:18):
George M. Johnson or George Matthew Johnson. I might have
my full name up there because there's some family members
that didn't know that my first name was George because
they call me Matthew. So yeah, I have that going on.
And yeah, I'll actually be in DC for Pride to
the DC Public Library doing a speaking engagement with Tweaky
(01:03:39):
Puochi Garsong.
Speaker 1 (01:03:41):
This conversation was a reminder that the intersection of faith, queerness,
and blackness is not a contradiction. It's a calling. As
George said, I get to wake up and do what
I love, and Rashid reminded us that waking up black
(01:04:02):
and gay is joy. If this episode spoke to your soul,
share it with someone, leave us a five star rating
and review, Share it on your socials, in your book
club as well as your group chat, and keep showing
up boldly beautifully in your full identity. Rate and review
(01:04:26):
the podcast. Start a conversation with someone about it, and
most importantly, keep showing up as you, all of you
until next time. Take care of yourselves in your piece
of the world, and know that I love you very
very very very much. Amen.
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