Sounds of Blackness

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Show me how good is gonna get today. God, dear Universe,
you have permission to amaze me. I am a beautiful
and blessed being who deserves great things always. I love
my life and I am thankful for my life. I
am safe and I have everything I need. Something amazing
is gonna happen to me today. Show me how good

(00:23):
is gonna get today. God, dear Universe, you have permission
to amaze me. I am a beautiful and blessed being
who deserves great things always. I love my life and
I am thankful for my life. I am safe and
I have everything I need. Something amazing is gonna happen
for me today. Show me how good is going to

(00:44):
get today. God, dear Universe, you have permission to amaze me.
I am a beautiful and blessed being who deserves great
things always. I love my life and I am thankful
for my life. I am safe and I have everything
I need. Something amazing is going to happen for me today.
Show me how good it's going to get today. God,

(01:05):
dear Universe, you have permission to amaze me. I am
a beautiful and blessed being who deserves great things always.
I love my life, and I am thankful for my life.
I am safe, and I have everything I need. Something
amazing is going to happen for me today. Hello Congregation,

(01:39):
and welcome to another episode of Hella Black, Hella Queer,
Hello Christian, a fully Black, fully Queer, fully human, fully
divine podcast about society, culture, and other fresh fried nigga
shit that I feel like talking about with.

Speaker 2 (01:55):
My dope ass friends.

Speaker 1 (01:57):
So you all may hear this a little bit later
in the year, but these church announcements are happening on
the last Thursday of Black History Months and don't have
too many praise reports, but just have some quick praise reports.
And I'm also going to ask that you would if
there's anything that you want to celebrate with the congregation

(02:20):
that you would like to be a part of the show,
please send an email, put praise report in the time
tagline and send it to Joseph Rees at iHeartMedia dot com.

Speaker 2 (02:30):
So that's going to be j O. S. E.

Speaker 1 (02:32):
P h R E A V E. S at iHeartMedia
dot com.

Speaker 2 (02:37):
But today I'm gonna.

Speaker 1 (02:39):
Take up space in the pullpit for the church announcement
with my praise reports.

Speaker 2 (02:42):
I have two praise.

Speaker 1 (02:43):
Reports that I want to celebrate really quick. This week
once again, Zion Wade has become the first black trans
teenage girl to be on the cover of seventeen magazine.
So we definitely want to give a hollulu for that.
Continue to be an example for what not just a

(03:05):
healed black transchild can be, but a healed black child
and a healed child, and what it shows that parents
can Black parents can still raised healed and healthy and
whole black children, and it does not need to include
tough love. And then another praise report something that I'm

(03:27):
excited about that seems to be coming down the pike.

Speaker 2 (03:30):
I might have to make.

Speaker 1 (03:31):
My way out to the Hollywood Bowl this August because
I am very interested to see Cynthia a Revo take
this turn as Jesus in this production of Jesus Christ
Superstar that is getting ready to happen, because with all
that is going on right now in the world, the
ways that we are being a particular not even so
much the world, let's be very particular what's going on

(03:54):
in this country. I definitely am interested to see a
black queer woman portray the Messiah. So those were your
church announcements this week. Once again, if you have an
announcement of praise report that you want to share with
the congregation, once again, shoot the line to Joseph Freese
at iHeartMedia dot com and govern yourselves accordingly. But I

(04:18):
think I see some visitors in the vestibule that are
ready to come on in the first visitor I see
here is the Doctor John Paul. So Doctor Jonathan P. Higgins,
or Doctor John Paul is an award winning educator, professor,
national speaker, freelance journalists, thought leader, and media critic who

(04:42):
examines the intersections of identity, gender and race, and entertainment.
Named National Black Justice Coalitions Inaugural Emerging Leaders to Watch
and Business Equality Magazine's Top forty LGBTQ People under forty.
Their work has been featured on sites like Ebony, Complex,

(05:02):
MTV News, Out Magazine, Beet and Entertainment Weekly, A Culture
Strike twenty twenty one, Disruptor, Black Boy, Girl Rights Fellow,
and Twitter Spaces Spark Creator. Because Twitter's mama named them Twitter,
so we're gonna.

Speaker 2 (05:17):
Call them Twitter, Amen.

Speaker 1 (05:19):
Doctor John Paul is a trailblazer who is creating, sharing,
and crafting the stories their ancestors didn't get to tell.
Doctor Higgins is currently the inaugural Director of Strategic Media
and Advocacy for Rainbow Pride Youth Alliance, and has held
positions at both Churning Entertainment and Edith's Productions. They have
consulted with multiple brands on inclusion projects, including United Artists, Amazon, Prime, Fox,

(05:45):
the NFL, Apple, Disney, Instagram, BuzzFeed, Glad, and most recently
alke To Beauty. They have also been a featured speaker
for south By Southwest and Tedex, and most recently was
the first Black queer person to be a featured speaker
at four Black. You can also see them on hit
shows like Netflix Has Nailed It and Fuses Like a Girl.

(06:05):
They are the creator, executive producer, and host of the
Black Fatfem podcast, which was developed via iHeartMedia's Next Up initiative.
In twenty twenty one, the podcast That's Going On to
be named on the Top Black Podcast to Listen To
by both Ebony and Pride Magazine, and being named both
a Webby honoree along with a Shorty Award win for

(06:26):
Best Lifestyle and Entertainment Podcasts. Currently, their book Black Fat Fem,
Revealing the Power of visibly Queer Voices and Media and
Learning to Love Yourself, Acquired by Wildly Goloble is available
for pre order now with a release of March the
twenty fifth, twenty twenty five. So the time is yet

(06:48):
drawing near for doctor John Paul's work to be brought
to the world. Doctor John Paul holds a doctorate of
Educational Leadership and Social Justice from University of Redlands, being
named as a Distinguished Recipient of the School of Education's
Centennial Excellence Award in twenty twenty four. They continue to
write and let your regularly on what liberation means for black, fat,

(07:11):
queer and non binary individuals and what folks can do
the better show up for those who are often left
at the margins in media and education. So congregation, please
give a warm welcome to doctor, because you know the
good Church. We love a good title doctor job Paul,
my God, it's so good to be here, Niggas, Hello sop.

(07:37):
And then before we move to our next guest, and
I also want to give their bio, I do also
want to say that there would not be a hell
of black hell Hello Christian if it were not for
black fat fam first and for doctor John Paul being
a part of that inaugural class of Next Up and
being the Possibility model. But let us move to our

(07:59):
next guest, because doctor John Paul is not the only
luminary in the congregation today, but we also have Sam Sanders.
So give me a moment while we bring up while
I bring up Sam's bio.

Speaker 2 (08:14):
So.

Speaker 1 (08:14):
Sam Sanders is an award winning reporter, radio host, and podcaster.
He hosted the hit show Into It from Vulture, which
I still miss very much. I used to listen to
it while I drank my Thursday morning coffee. He was
also a founder, creator and host of NPRS Is Been
a Minute and MPR Politics. He currently hosts the beloved

(08:38):
show Vibe Check from Sirius XM. Shout out to the
Pumpkin Patch, shout out to all the Patreon because I
be up in the chat. He has interviewed luminaries ranging
from j Lo to Maya Rudolph to Beto O'Rourke to
Malcolm Gladwell. His writing has appeared in New York Magazine,
Political Magazine, and The Washington Post. Sam It's Probably from

(09:01):
San Antonio, Texas and currently lives in Los Angeles with
his two pitbulls named Zorra and Wesley. The three of
them are always contemplating their next naps. Welcome to the congregation, sand.

Speaker 3 (09:14):
Thanks for having me. I have to apologize in advance.

Speaker 4 (09:17):
I got whatever cold all of Los Angeles got about
two or three weeks ago. Feeling better, but I still
got a little itch of a cough. If I cough,
don't hold it against me. But it's so good to
be here. Thank you for having.

Speaker 1 (09:28):
Merely welcome and you sound great. There's a bug going
around the country, and with the current head of the
Department of Health and Human Services, I'm worried about how
that is going to be handled. Oh my god, because listen,
people forget twenty twenty was an election year and also

(09:52):
twenty twenty had a majority Democratic Congress, so they think
shit's about to be sweet, but it really ain't. So
before we get into the main conversation, just wanted to
kind of see how have people's Black History Month been.
On this last Thursday of the month.

Speaker 4 (10:10):
You know, I've had to just kind of keep my
blinders on and find ways to celebrate blackness and celebrate
us and not let the headlines get me down too much.

Speaker 2 (10:22):
You know.

Speaker 4 (10:23):
Black History Month happens every year, and so regardless of
who is in the White House, I.

Speaker 3 (10:27):
Got to celebrate it.

Speaker 4 (10:30):
My annual tradition is to practice throughout the month the
Black National Anthem on my saxophone because I still play
sometimes cool and I love to do it because when
I play my saxophone, my dog Wesley Wesley snipes. He
loves to howl along, so he sings with me. And
I've just been like focusing on him and his happiness

(10:53):
and his singing with me. And I'm not letting the
other stuff in DC get.

Speaker 3 (10:58):
Me down this month. I can't I let it.

Speaker 1 (11:01):
Yeah, So what about you, doctor John Paul? Yeah, you know,
I feel that wholeheartedly. I will say I've been pouring
myself a lot into the joy around my book and
really just kind of seeing especially seeing so many you know,
folks either find out about the book and be excited
for it, or even just having people in my inner

(11:22):
circle you know, my agent or my you know, my manager,
you know, my publicists, all those folks you know, really
pushing and really you know, celebrating me. I will say
that initially when we announced the book, the response was
kind of mute, but now all of a sudden, you know,
I book book Talk got its hands on it, and
so seeing big book Talk get its hands on it,

(11:42):
and also even on threads, seeing people be like why
why is this book not?

Speaker 2 (11:46):
Like why are you not coming to my city?

Speaker 1 (11:48):
Like I actually just had two or three people hit
me from San Fran and are upset that we don't
have a date for San Fran yet.

Speaker 2 (11:53):
And so it's just been really cool. It's been really cool.

Speaker 1 (11:56):
You know, you wake up one day feeling like, you know,
you're not seeing and then all of a sudden, every
body and their mama, you know, is looking for you
and is wanting to connect with you. And so I
will say that that's kind of been what has uplifted
my Black History Month is just recognizing that we're still here,
that we're still smiling, that we're still laughing, and that
you know, we're all looking for ways to kind of
uplift and uphold the joy that we all have. I

(12:16):
will say this too, Seeing people's social posts has really
been what's keeping my Black History joyful. We don't one
thing about us is that even in the worst moments,
we are gonna laugh. And so just you know, following
people on social media who really who can really you know,
nel it and make things funny, especially with how terrible
they are. That has really been keeping me uplifted and

(12:39):
joyful this Black History Month.

Speaker 3 (12:40):
So yeah, that's wonderful. I love it.

Speaker 1 (12:42):
So I so my Black History Month kicked off with
Jarrett Hill and treyvel Anderson. They came to d C.
They came to wantin Luther King Library here in d C,
and they did their game show historically Black Frame Live.
So that was literally yeah, that was literally Saturday, February

(13:04):
the first, and then on the first Thursday of the month.
And it's crazy to already be at the last Thursday
of the month, even though you know February is a
shorter month. But you know, I went to I went
to the casino. I went to the MGM Grand at
the National Harbor to catch the Patty LaBelle show.

Speaker 2 (13:25):
So for me, that yeah, how was that?

Speaker 1 (13:29):
So I went because shout out to Dustin Ross of
the Friend Zone. He really kind of like put it
in my mind of like, if you have a chance
to see the legends, see them while they're still around.
Because as this month showed us with ROBERTA. Flack and
with Jerry Butler, and Gwen bur Cray. We don't know

(13:52):
when these people's numbers are going to come up. So
I went knowing that Patty's show has changed for the years,
but I just really went to kind of like honor
like that twelve year old Patty level fanatic NB and
just to kind of like see her one last time.
So I'll just say, you know, I appreciated it for

(14:12):
what it was, so that that was pretty cool. And
then I headed up Valentine's Day weekend, I headed up
to New York and I celebrated to read their twelfth
anniversary show.

Speaker 2 (14:25):
You got tickets to that?

Speaker 1 (14:28):
Yeah, And then now and then I'll I'll be going
up next month for Dustin. Now I had to go.
I had to go on Vivid Seats to do the
resale with Dustin. But still, you know, I got my
tickets because you know, I just wanted to make sure
I supported them. So I've made the most of it.
Really being in DC with everything that's going on, it

(14:52):
is a little bit more difficult, but you know, I
did what I could, and then you know, made sure
I made my way to services at Howard Universe because
I said, you know, I almost feel like even if
you're not Christian. For Black History Months, you kind of
need to get at least one good black church program
in Yes, I respect that, find some find someplace safe

(15:15):
to go and get you a good old black church program.

Speaker 4 (15:19):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (15:20):
And then on my church, so I attend Alfred Street
and Alexandria Howard. John Wesley is my pastor. And to
Sam's point, you practice the Black National Anthem on your saxophone.
But we do a tradition where we sink like lift
every voice is our main morning him for every Sunday
in February, and it's like every week we take a

(15:44):
verse out so that by the end of the month
we're not singing it with the words on the screen,
but we're just singing it, you know, by memory memory.
So that's what So that's what all Black History Months
has been. And I think the ice has been broken,
and I think after we just take a quick break
to pay the bills, we can actually get into the

(16:05):
main topic. We'll be right back after these messages. All right,

(16:39):
thank you so much for still sticking with us here
at Hella. Black, Hello queer, Hello Christian, And we are
going to get into the word for today and the
title of today's sermon is Sounds of Blackness, and of
course it is an old to the classic nineteen nineties

(17:02):
gospel R and B sole Negro spiritual outfit that was
name Sounds of Blackness, which gave us one of the
contemporary Negro national anthems optimistic. But as long as you
keep your head to this sky high?

Speaker 2 (17:20):
All right? All right, See you can.

Speaker 1 (17:22):
See you were feeling you were feeling a little bit
more courageous than I was.

Speaker 2 (17:27):
But come on with that and you can win.

Speaker 1 (17:32):
Oh.

Speaker 2 (17:32):
I love that song.

Speaker 1 (17:34):
Yeah, I mean, it's just a classic feel good song.
And if and if I'm ever kind of like in
a valley moment and it's kind of like I need
to get out of my rut. It's like Optimistic or
keep your Head to the Sky by Earth Wind and Fire,
or even Someday will All Be Free by Donnie Hathaway.
It's one of the songs that I kind of lean into.

(17:58):
Can I also add I want to also add to
the to the Book of Hymns. I would love to
add Beyonces Bigger because I think people sleep on that
song as well.

Speaker 3 (18:09):
And also I would like to the Lion King soundtrack.

Speaker 1 (18:11):
Yes, from the Lion King, and I would also yes,
and I would love to also add to the U
add to the Hymns. I would like to add Beyonce's
Oh what was the name of that Alive? I think
though that's from from the King Richard, from the King
Richard One.

Speaker 4 (18:30):
I only think of that song and remember that performance
she did, but that the movie was up for a
bunch of oscars. She was on a tennis court and
like tennis lime, yellow green. Yes, it was such a
great performance, that such a great performance.

Speaker 1 (18:46):
Yeah, and I definitely would accept those submissions to the
to the to the Book of Hymns. And now I'm
thinking about which olgan I'm going to sell to get
these Cowboy Carter tickets.

Speaker 2 (19:03):
Well, I got mine, So please don't come for.

Speaker 1 (19:06):
Me, no, because clear clear she's gonna be in DC
on July fourth, So be clear, I am gonna go.

Speaker 2 (19:15):
So I m just go. I'm going.

Speaker 3 (19:18):
I'm gonna be honest. And I've said this on vibe
check a few times.

Speaker 4 (19:22):
Oh, I think somewhere in Cowboy Carter there are eight
to ten songs that make a good album in its entirety.

Speaker 3 (19:30):
It's give me whiplash.

Speaker 4 (19:32):
I appreciate the brilliance, but I rarely listen to all
of it at once. Renaissance, all I wanted to do
was play at top to bottom every day. I found
the sequencing of Cowboy Carter off and I also with Renaissance,
It's like I went four times because I wanted to
see every one of those songs live. Yeah, I don't
feel as strong about Cowboy Carter. Also, she got so

(19:54):
much of my money last Yeah, I might go and listen.
I say this. People are like, what's wrong with you?
And it's like I still love her. I just want
to go to that show.

Speaker 2 (20:05):
Yeah. Yeah, it's kind of like you want to go
for the status.

Speaker 1 (20:09):
And you kind of want to go to do it
for the grit, to do it for the grand But like,
I definitely understand what you're saying, and I almost feel
the same way about Kendrick. If you want me, if
we're going to be.

Speaker 3 (20:18):
I'm gonna tell you something.

Speaker 4 (20:19):
One thing I'm not gonna do is go see Kendrick
and Scissor tour together. They are both way too long winded.

Speaker 1 (20:25):
Them for me. They can just come for me. I
will be asleep in somebody's chair because I find both
of them to be extremely boring.

Speaker 4 (20:36):
I'm so I think that makes good music to get
stone to and clean the house to, which is great,
But I don't need to see that in a stadium.

Speaker 2 (20:47):
Absolutely not.

Speaker 1 (20:48):
I will be staying home lord, as Black Church does.
We moved the program out the way and we got sidetracked,
but that happens, right, But you know, we also named
the episode Sounds of Blackness because I felt like I
wanted to have a discussion around like black dialect and

(21:12):
kind of like what we've had to navigate around what
blackness does and sound does and does not sound like
like in our personal lives, not just as black folks
and not but as black queer folks. So first question,
and it is a two parter, So what were you
told about your voice growing up as a black person and.

Speaker 2 (21:35):
As a queer person?

Speaker 1 (21:36):
And then what was your relationship with your voice as
a child and growing up? Yeah, this question is is
it's so timing because everybody and also part of me.
In terms of promotion, if you if you hear this
before my twenty fifth, get the you know, pre order
your book and if you hit it after March twenty fifth,

(21:56):
go get the book. But I talk a lot about
my voice in chapter one of my books, specifically because
as you know, as you all hear, I can hold
a note. I don't like to think of myself as
a sanga because you know, there are a lot of
people out here who say they are singers and they
are not singers. I like to say I can hold
an note, and so I tend to hum and sing
around the house. But my voice has always been light,

(22:19):
and what I mean by that is you can, as
you can hear it, I don't have a lot of
bass in my voice. I've never had bass in my voice,
and so, you know, one of the things that I've
always kind of countered or I've had to deal with,
specifically with having a lighter voice, was the fact that
my voice wasn't masculine, and a lot of my family
having issues with this, specifically the black men in my

(22:40):
family having an issue with how I presented and how
I sounded. As I got older, I started hearing a
lot of you sound like your mom, you sing like
your mom. You know, it was also not something that
you know, you would want to celebrate. And then that's
where I had to start kind of leaning into this
idea of becoming comfortable with a part of my queerness

(23:03):
being the femininity that lives in my voice. And so
when you talk about the actual voice itself, that's where
I lean into. But when you talk about actually how
I show up around my voice, you know, I've always
also you know that part too. I've also been a
I was always known as a troublemaker. I was also
known as the loud one. I was also known as
the boisterous one. I was the one who was always

(23:24):
there was too much attention, always on me, and a
lot of my family had issues with that. And now
it makes me a lot of money. So i'man that's
the That's the gag. You know, when you show up
to an event and and you and your family see
you hop out the whip and the whip is clean,
and you know you got you a three thousand dollars
bag or in your hand. You know, a couple of

(23:45):
people feel a certain type of way and it's like, yeah,
well you know you you laughed at me, and now
I laugh to the bank. So it's just one of
those things that I've come to learn, you know, all
jokes aside. I've I've had to learn to love my
voice and What I mean by that is both the
actual will sound of my voice, but also this idea
too of the masculinity are the issues around masculinity quote unquote,

(24:10):
and this idea of how I'm supposed to sound as
someone who was cis gender per se. So yeah, that's
me in a nutshell.

Speaker 3 (24:18):
Yeah. So there's a story that kind of sums up
what I was dealing with with my voice when I
was younger.

Speaker 4 (24:26):
So I sang in the youth choir at church, and
when I was maybe like a preteen, like eleven or twelve,
I got to lead this John Pea key song called
Sweeter and Sweet.

Speaker 3 (24:41):
That was me, and I had.

Speaker 4 (24:43):
A voice that was pretty high. It could hit those
notes in a relatively high key. Over time, you know,
we course through that song and began to sing some
other ones. But my mother, who was the church organist,
wanted when I was like fifteen or sixteen, for the
youth choir to bring back Sweeter and have me solo again.

(25:03):
But my voice had changed and I can no longer
hit the notes, and my mother was kind of mad
and I was kind of perplexed. But my voice got
really low and I had a bass voice after puberty,
and it was kind of confusing because the same people
who told me that my voice was too high a

(25:24):
few years before liked how my voice sounded when I
talked after puberty, but were mad that I couldn't sing
like how I did when I was younger. And that
represents what I've had to deal with with my voice constantly,
people who listen to me saying, I like it when
you sound that way, but not this way. I had

(25:47):
people my entire life, black, white, in all colors telling
me I either sound too.

Speaker 3 (25:52):
Black or too white.

Speaker 4 (25:54):
When I became a national journalist, I had queer people
tell me that I sounded too gay, and others say
sounded too straight. And I think what I've had to
make peace with is that every iteration of my voice
is given me by God, and I love it. I've
always been comfortable code switching based on who I'm with
and where I am to get what I needed, what

(26:15):
I want, and it was almost intrinsic to me without
even thinking about it as a kid. And I still
cold switch in my adult life and don't hate it.
But I've had to make peace with the fact that
however my voice sounds, someone's gonna be mad.

Speaker 3 (26:30):
About it. But you know what, it is my voice
and it contains multitudes.

Speaker 2 (26:34):
Thank you so.

Speaker 1 (26:34):
Much for sharing that. And I and even in my
so my voice was my power, but it was also
my vulnerability. Growing up in church, always recognized as someone
who spoke well, so like I was always called to
be a part of Martin Luther King's Sunday or Black

(26:56):
History Month Sunday, or the Christmas play or the Easter play.
So I so I had this talent and this gift,
but it also collided with the fact that I have
never been afforded the privilege of the closet. People have

(27:20):
always seen who I was. People could always see me
coming from five miles away in regards to my queerness.
So my talent made me a target, like with a
lot of other queer folks with it the black church,
because it's like, you have this talent and you have
this gift, and we want to lift you up, but

(27:41):
there's this thing about you that needs to be fixed,
and we need to fix you and we need to
save you so that you can be this role model
and this example, particularly for the other black boys, of
what a black boy should be and what it means
to grow into a black man of works.

Speaker 3 (28:02):
Yeah.

Speaker 4 (28:02):
Well, and then what's so frustrating, because we've all experienced
this growing up in our black churches.

Speaker 3 (28:07):
Some of the very people.

Speaker 4 (28:09):
Who were telling you how to make your voice more straight,
seem less gay, punishing you for how your voice sounded.

Speaker 3 (28:17):
I realized in adulthood, Oh half of them were queer.

Speaker 1 (28:22):
You know what I'm saying.

Speaker 2 (28:26):
How you doing so?

Speaker 4 (28:28):
Yeah?

Speaker 1 (28:29):
Yeah, And I feel like we're already leading into the
next question. I'm loving how this conversation is going so far.
So the next question I wanted to ask is how
did region So I grew up in New York, Sam,
I know you grew up in Texas, and then doctor

(28:51):
John Paul, I knew you grew up out west. So
how did region form and shape your voice? And how
others perceived your voice? And have you We've already started
to answer this question, I think, but has your voice
been impacted by religiosity, religion and faith spaces?

Speaker 4 (29:09):
Oh?

Speaker 2 (29:10):
Yeah, yeah, definitely. I think.

Speaker 1 (29:13):
You know, I get a lot now these days people
say we love you for being yourself, and I know
that's often coded. You know, I think that's usually John.
You just you know, I when I walk into a room.
I'm very much am John. And you know the John
you get here, the John you get over on my podcast,
the jobs you're gonna read in the book, that is
all the same person. I'm not putting on an act,

(29:34):
but I think the religiosity piece right. So I didn't
grow up and I always like to tell people I
grew up in a cult. I grew up a Jovah's
witness and so.

Speaker 3 (29:42):
Oh, I don't know that.

Speaker 4 (29:47):
Yes, the why I briefly dated Jehovah Witness, an undergrad
a woman and it was the most unhinged three months
of my life.

Speaker 2 (30:00):
I love that word. That's one of my favorite words. Yes.

Speaker 1 (30:03):
So so I tell people, you know, the christian the
Christian Uh, the Christianity that you know as being the
church is not the Christianity. I knew. It wasn't like
I grew up half and half. I grew up my
whole life. I was a witness, and I opted to
leave when I got old enough to be able to
say this thing for me no more. And so I
sail of that to say, there's a certain type of

(30:25):
way your voice has to show up in that space
because j doubs don't operate the same way that other
churches operate. Right, And also to your point, Sam, yes,
a lot of folks are queer, and so what they're
trying to do in order, you know, a lot of
it is projection, right. They see you being yourself and

(30:46):
again that codedness of it all, but also trying to
tell you to tempor You know, I often got told
your personality and your your voice is too loud. And
I now, as an adult, I know what that loud means.

Speaker 2 (30:59):
Right.

Speaker 1 (30:59):
The loud means I I stand too firmly, and and
this feminine, you know, this feminine energy that I carry,
and so I think that for a long time that
made me very insecure, and that is you know, and
that's kind of the story with my book. My book
was initially supposed to be called no Black, no Fat,
no fem. And because we didn't want to, you know,

(31:20):
alienate a certain demographic, I settled with being okay with
my book and my show being called black fat fem
because initially, where that story lives is the idea of
everything and every in all the different ways of my
life of how I show showed up, I was always
being told that it wasn't welcome, per se, right. Folks

(31:41):
don't like when you're too black. Folks don't like when
you're too queer. Folks don't like when you're too you know,
when you're too comfortable in your body. And so I
say all of that to say that, yes, those you know,
religion did impact that, and I was very insecure for
a very long time because of it. But I'm so
grateful to have a black therapist who helped me understand
and how to un learn a lot of that stuff,

(32:02):
you know now in my big age of thirty nine
and my big rightful age of thirty nine.

Speaker 4 (32:07):
So all right, yeah, yeah, you know, for me, growing
up in South Texas was kind of multiple worlds. So
the San Antonio area is definitely in Texas, but it
sits right on the corner of South and Southwest. So
my father grew up in East Texas, so he was
a full Southerner, almost Louisiana, and the way he sounded.

(32:29):
My mother grew up in Birmingham, and some of my
upbringing in the South and in San Antonio felt very Southern,
especially when I was at church, But when I was
at school or with friends or just out in the city,
it felt very Southwestern. You know, San Antonio is two
thirds Latino, and the schools I went to in middle

(32:51):
school and high school were very close to an Air
Force base, which meant that I was around kids from
all over the country, if not the world. So I
heard a lot of different dialects, a lot more than
most people would assume when they hear that I'm from
San Antonio, Texas, and from a very young age, I
was just not I wasn't just comfortable with all the
different sounds of those voices, but I liked to play

(33:12):
with them all, you know. It was fun to hear
how my Latino friends talk and pick up some of that,
and then see how my White friends talk and say
I like some of that, and then to always be
grounded in the way that my church folks and my
parents sounded. I just was really enveloped in an incredible

(33:33):
linguistic diversity in South Texas, which made me, I think,
in adulthood, so much more comfortable letting my voice sounds
however that the hell it wants to sound on any
given day.

Speaker 1 (33:45):
Right excellent. So born in New York, was really raised
on Long Island.

Speaker 3 (33:56):
Okay, now we're in Long Island because Long Island can.

Speaker 1 (34:00):
Right, so Freeport, so Nassau County, so really kind of
like the more urban spaces of Long Island to where
you know, I could take a bus an hour and
a half right on the bus of the Long Island
Railroad and be in Jamaica, Queens. And then I was actually,
you know, born in Jamaica, Queens, so New Yorker, much

(34:24):
like Sam grew up here in all of these diverse dialects,
So definitely hearing like the various ethnicities within the LATINX community,
definitely here in the various dialects with in the Caribbean community.
But for me personally growing up in New York and
people always saying I sounded like I was from the South, Yeah,

(34:48):
and then coming to d C for college and it
being this switch where everybody talks about where every I
would just start to say, oh, I can so here
you're from New York. And then even with d C
and kind of like this battle of whether or not

(35:09):
d C is the South that people kind of have.
So I mean that that's so that's the fair answer,
Like it is the mid Atlantic because and I would
say for me, it's the mid Atlantic because in some
ways it is definitely southern, but in some ways it

(35:32):
is definitely northern.

Speaker 4 (35:34):
Yeah. My rule for the South is if I can't
get sweet tea in most places, it's not the South
at least not.

Speaker 3 (35:42):
You can still get sweet tea everywhere.

Speaker 2 (35:43):
At least not.

Speaker 1 (35:44):
Yeah, And I mean like culturally, like if you can't
get sweet tea, if there's not a waffle house and
if there's not a Krogers.

Speaker 2 (35:56):
Yeah, you.

Speaker 1 (36:00):
Can't really for me, you can't really, you can't. You
can't really say, you know, like it's the South for
a minute. I used to when I first got here,
I used to say d C was up south because
I'm sorry, if you hear DC dialect, it.

Speaker 3 (36:17):
Still don't get it. I lived in DC for five
years and I'm like, hew y'all talk up there. It's different.

Speaker 4 (36:22):
I love it, but I could never pick up you know,
It's funny. I'm someone who loves accents and can pick
them up. I never got the DMV accent border Moore.

Speaker 1 (36:31):
Is that the way you can do it with the
water water?

Speaker 2 (36:37):
Yeah, or like.

Speaker 1 (36:39):
If you for like d C, if you go past
water front, if you go further south than Waterfront on
the green line, Ao mo Yeah. And then of course,
religiosity really frame my voice because growing up I just
always heard, oh, you're.

Speaker 2 (36:59):
Gonna be a preacher.

Speaker 1 (37:02):
And then you know, I grew up singing in the choir,
and then I grew up Presbyterian, but it was a
Black Presbyterian churchcha, so it wasn't the full Pentecostal experience,
but definitely, you know, maybe like a light Baptist because

(37:27):
we did have that Red Baptist hymnal. And then like
growing up, I definitely remember singing, singing like Kirk Franklin
and Fred Hammond and you know John p Key, So
I remember singing those songs in the youth choir, you know,
as a teenager, but then definitely in my adult life
becoming more Baptis Costal. And then you know, and then Sam,

(37:53):
I know, you grew up Kojic, so like for me,
the Clark sisters, you.

Speaker 4 (37:57):
Know, and I wasn't quite Kojak. I want to clarify.
Our church was called First Apostolic Church, but they from
a larger Pentecostal denomination, so we were in Pentecostal symblies
of the world before I got there, but they broke
away because it wasn't strict enough were ect.

Speaker 1 (38:16):
No no, no, no, Thank you for clarifying. Thank you
for thank you for clarifying, because if some P A
W folks heard that I was referring to you as
because p A W and Kojak fight, because p A.

Speaker 4 (38:31):
Kojak always had some good music. You can't walk into
a Kojak church without an organist who can make you
slap your mama.

Speaker 3 (38:39):
It's wild. Yeah, Kojak music was good. Church of Our
Lord sus Christ music was always good. Yeah, always, you know.

Speaker 1 (38:49):
But but I say that to say that with John,
with what you brought up around loudness, because to be
like this black queer person who is what they would
call a shout at and who believes in charismatic worship
even kind of like having to deal with that in
my adult life because it's like men aren't supposed to

(39:10):
do that, Like that's really just something that you see
women do. Men aren't supposed to do that. And I'm
and I've even had to deal with the fact that,
you know, I just respect how you're just so free
and who you are, and it's it really is kind
of like that cold handed compliment to where I hear
what you're saying and I hear what you're saying.

Speaker 2 (39:30):
Yeah, thank you, but also fuck you. There you go,
and we love to cuts over here like that about
so why not did you not hear my introduction to
this show? Okay?

Speaker 1 (39:43):
I just want to make sure that yeah, because I
know some people a real holy but yeah, that's where
my heart is, like, thank you for like you don't
you don't know who I am? T T T Okay.
I just want to make sure we're okay to cuts
on here. I'm just yeah, that's motherfucking lord.

Speaker 2 (40:01):
Okay, I know that I love it. Oh okay.

Speaker 1 (40:05):
And then the last question before we kind of like
get into the rapid round questions that I want to
ask you all, guys just to kind of like tie
up before we kind of like wrap up this really
wonderful conversation that I feel that has really been divinely
guided and has really kind of represents what I want
to show to be. So the last question I want

(40:25):
to ask you guys is what was a definitive moment
for you in claiming your own voice? What is your
relationship to your voice today? And what or who would
you define as a sound of blackness?

Speaker 2 (40:39):
Oh wow, that's a really big questions.

Speaker 1 (40:44):
Yeah, it is the questions, and that it doesn't have
to be definitive for you. This kind of like the
conversation that Sam had about who's who's on your Black
Mount Rushmore for you, Okay, for you, that's a really
good question, you know, Beyonce, of course I would put

(41:04):
you on a up there too. I would say, you know,
a definitive moment in me claiming my own voice. I
think it was the day and it's it's a day
that will always stay with me and extremely vivid was
the day that. So I'm a I'm a very context
before content person. So I am so sorry for those
of you who are who are timed, but I have

(41:26):
to go into the story. So what some of you
don't know about Jadab's or Jada Jehovah witnesses is they
watch you when you are once you once you are in,
once you're in it baptized and you're in it, they
basically surveil you. And I was being surveiled once I
started going to college, and I remember hanging out with

(41:46):
some folks who were not Jehovah witnesses and basically getting
in trouble for it. Long story short, I got Basically,
if you know any Jehovah witnesses, you get pulled in
what they call the back room. When you get pulled
into the back room, that's basically you're getting reprimanded for
doing something that's considered ungodly right. And so I was
being reprimanded at that moment. For one, someone was surveilling

(42:09):
me online and watching my social media presence and found
out that I was on MySpace, and I also had
a profile on a website that is now defunct called
xy dot com. But also there are other folks that
were watching me online. So I sailed that to say,
so you understand where I'm going with my answer to this.
The day that they made me sign the pay, they
were trying to make me sign a piece of paper

(42:31):
that would say that I was this fellowship for basically
not following the rules and the regulations of the organization.
I pushed the paper back and left and never looked back.
So to this day, I don't know if I was
disassociated or if I was just fellowships, because I genuinely
didn't care. But I think that was the first time

(42:51):
where I really owned my voice and basically saying you're
not going to try to scare me into being somebody
you want me to be, and the same. I lost
a lot of friends and family because of it too.
But I also look back on that almost twenty years ago,
because it was nineteen when it happened. Yeah, I look
back on it, you know, twenty years ago, and I go,
thank God that I was able to stand in my

(43:14):
voice in that moment. To your second question, what is
the relationship to my voice today? I love her, you know.
I used to think she was always gonna get in
trouble and always, you know, because people, especially when you
work in corporate spaces and Sam, I don't know your
trajectory with journalism, but I know that even as a journalist,
there's a lot of white mediocrity that will tell you, oh,
your voice is too big, yeah, or this story is

(43:37):
not something that you should be writing about. You shouldn't
be so vocal about this injustice blah blah blah. And
now I'm just that girl that's like, I'm gonna say
what he needs to be said, and if y'all vibe
with it, great, and if you don't, that ain't got
nothing to do with me. And so that's really I
will say. I just I love the voice that I
have now. And then what would I define as a
sound of blackness? You know, my my number one thing

(43:59):
I love more than anything in this world when it
comes to this question is and it's not necessarily voice,
but it is the sound of our laughter when a
group of black people are laughing. And I'm not talking
about like three or four black people. I'm talking about
when an entire room, like specifically, like why I enjoy
watching what is his name? He's a nut and he's

(44:22):
a comedian. He runs back. He has the thing he
does with his church. He's very churchy. I'm not a
huge church person, but I do find his comedy to
be keV on stage. Yes, he does this thing where
he has all of his peoples and you know, they're
all in a room and it looks like they're out
of church, and he'll be cracking, you know, very godly
jokes and things, but they'll be laughing. And there's something

(44:43):
so healing about just watching these black folks laugh in
this moment, especially knowing all that we deal with, and
so what it sounds of blackness to me? A big
ass group of black people laughing, especially when they are
either laughing at something or laughing at someone. I know
I've heard people crack jokes like what kind of shoes
you got on? Girl?

Speaker 2 (45:03):
Like why you got that outfit? Or you know you can't.

Speaker 1 (45:05):
Fit like that kind of stuff. When people are ragging
on each other and it's done in a way where
it's done with love, that for me is the sound
of blackness.

Speaker 4 (45:12):
So all right, I'm forgetting all of the three questions,
but I'll start with a sound of blackness for me
because you made me think of another closeingit.

Speaker 2 (45:20):
I love.

Speaker 4 (45:21):
I love hearing a mostly black crowd or all black
crowd interact with the performer on a stage. It can
be the congregation giving positive feedback to her preacher saying amen,
go on, et cetera. It can be the crowd at
showtime at the Apollo, who, with its call and response, can.

Speaker 3 (45:43):
Make a break an artist. There's this little video I saw.

Speaker 4 (45:47):
A few days ago of this maybe eleven twelve year
old young white boy I'm guessing queer, who was singing
like old school R and B at a nursing home, folks.

Speaker 3 (46:01):
And they hyped him up so good, they gassed him
up so right.

Speaker 4 (46:04):
I was more enthralled by their responses than his incredible singing.
And what all of that teaches me is that Black
people are just intrinsically in tune with letting and allowing
and wanting their voices to work in connection with others.
And that has informed the way I make my journalism.

(46:28):
I love to build a conversation where the people talking
we get to talking in a way, in a black
way that feels.

Speaker 3 (46:35):
Like we're all kind of one organism. Black people do that,
you know, the call and response of a crowd.

Speaker 4 (46:41):
I've always been chasing that feeling that I first learned
in church. I've been chasing that in all the audio
I do. Right, So that's my answer to that question.
I forget your other two questions.

Speaker 1 (46:52):
So what was a defining moment for you in claiming
your voice? And what is your relationship to your voice today?

Speaker 4 (47:00):
I took a speech class in graduate school called the
Art of Communication, and we had to deliver a speech
every week on a certain topic.

Speaker 3 (47:11):
And before then, in spite of being really active and.

Speaker 4 (47:13):
Gregarious, I always dealt with a stutter my entire life,
and doing that.

Speaker 3 (47:17):
Class made me just like kind of have to face it.

Speaker 4 (47:21):
And you know, there was a lot of self work
that went on with my professor and classmates throughout that semester.

Speaker 3 (47:31):
But doing that was kind of the first step.

Speaker 4 (47:34):
In me getting really confident in my speaking voice in
a way that I wasn't before. So that, I will
also say, probably another voice that defind me, or a
moment that that to find my voice was when I
realized I couldn't sing that John p Key song anymore
and perhaps my voice was low.

Speaker 3 (47:50):
That's fine. You know what's your third question? I forgot?

Speaker 1 (47:54):
And then what's your relationship with your voice today?

Speaker 4 (47:56):
I love it. It's great. I think it's great. It bought
me a house. I'm very proud of it. You know,
I love her.

Speaker 1 (48:09):
So a defining more, I'm currently living a defining, a
defining moment for my voice. I identify as non binary.
My pronouns are they them, And all my life people
have never really been able to place me like if

(48:31):
they're if they if they're just hearing my voice and
they don't see me, they can't place me. More times
than not they will place me as female, but you
will even get those places where they define me as male.
And now I'm at the place where I can say, well,
neither one of those things are true, but both of

(48:51):
those things are true. I work in I work in
the call center for the constituent for Constituent Services at
the national headquarters for the NAACP.

Speaker 2 (49:08):
That is my that is.

Speaker 1 (49:11):
My nine to five job and my defining moment and
the way I am defining myself and the way I'm
claiming myself and my voice in this moment in this
you know, anti trans, anti non binary, antime queer America.

(49:33):
To where the alarm has been sounded and the demons
have just been unleashed, is to where there'll be many
times where I will say my name is Joseph, how
can I help you? And people will think my name
is Josie, or even when I say no, my name
is Joseph, they will say, oh, well, miss Joseph, because

(49:56):
they I just have to be a woman in their mind.
So it's kind of like my resistance. It's saying my
name is Joseph, just like it's in the Bible, and
you can simply call me by my first name, all right,
And then even being like, well, am I talking to
a male or am I talking to a female? My

(50:17):
name is Joseph, and you can simply call me by
my first name, or even really just coming out and saying,
you know, hey, I do not use male or female pronouns.

Speaker 2 (50:28):
My name is Joseph.

Speaker 1 (50:30):
You can simply call me by my first name. So
that's how I am claiming my voice. I'm still growing
to love my voice. I can love like in this
space where I can hear myself talk. I love my voice,
but to hear a playback of my voice it's still
difficult for me. But you know, I'm hoping to get

(50:50):
there where I can appreciate that as well. I'm coming
back into who I am as a singer. I can
hold a note. I may not be you know, Whitney
or Walter Hawks, but I can't hold a note. So
that's a place where I find joy in my voice
and sounds of blackness. I just have to reiterate some

(51:12):
of what you all said. It's the sound of chicken
frying on the stove, Okay, I like that. It's the
sound of a congregation singing the Blood will Never lose
its power on Communion Sunday. It's also a concert full
of black folks in their white singing Joy and Pain

(51:34):
by Frankie Beverly and.

Speaker 3 (51:35):
Maize wearing white, gona wear some white.

Speaker 1 (51:39):
Especially for a Frankie Beverly concert ry. Ryan Mitchell just
did a whole entire TikTok about the color white and
how black people need to let it go.

Speaker 3 (51:51):
So yes, we also love giving assignments for dress codes
for things that no one can fully interpret. Funky and festive, what.

Speaker 2 (51:59):
Do you mean?

Speaker 1 (52:00):
What do I what exactly?

Speaker 2 (52:03):
What?

Speaker 1 (52:03):
What?

Speaker 2 (52:03):
What? What exactly? Is grown?

Speaker 1 (52:05):
And sexy is.

Speaker 2 (52:08):
Yeah? And then and then real for.

Speaker 1 (52:13):
Me when I when I when I first posed the question,
that was thinking of who I was going to say
for me O Reesa Franklin mm hmmm. So so that
that's who I would put up there. So if we
come to the end of this part of the conversation,
but before I let you go, I actually want to
do a rapid fire with you guys where we just

(52:34):
kind of going around and we asked and I'm just
gonna ask the questions and we're just gonna go as
quick as we can because while we still have some time, Sam,
I know you have a hard stop and I do
want to honor that.

Speaker 2 (52:48):
So first question, what are you looking forward to? And
are we still gonna go?

Speaker 1 (52:54):
And order we can go John Sam and then be.

Speaker 2 (52:59):
In the moment dinner.

Speaker 4 (53:02):
There you go, there you go for me some Nike
will I realized talk and I'm like, I might be
a little more sick than I thought. So I need
to get myself some medication and lay it down tonight.

Speaker 1 (53:16):
Yeah yep. So I'm looking forward to getting some dinner.
And then so today I'm a big anniversary person. So
today is the anniversary over REESEA. Franklin's debut album, and
then today is the anniversary of like the rebirth of
Kirk Franklin album.

Speaker 2 (53:32):
So that's the one that I have.

Speaker 1 (53:33):
Yeah, yep. So so I'm a I'm gonna pour some
libations while I listen to those. That's what I'm looking
forward to. All Right, what do you like about yourself?
Something you like about yourself? I will say my ability
to pivot no matter what is thrown at me. Mother
always knows how to how to keep how to keep

(53:54):
the train in motion. So yes, I love that about myself.

Speaker 4 (53:59):
I'm very good a small I like talking to strangers
and it's a small way that I build community, and
it often when I do it right and don't anore people.

Speaker 3 (54:08):
Brain's not just my day, but there's two. I love
small talking. I'm good at it.

Speaker 4 (54:12):
Mm.

Speaker 1 (54:13):
So I'm looking at myself in this screen and my
skin looks very lovely.

Speaker 3 (54:17):
I know that, all right, it does? It does moisturized.

Speaker 1 (54:21):
Yes, shout out to Izora BB the dunky milk face.

Speaker 2 (54:28):
About it.

Speaker 3 (54:30):
So I love.

Speaker 1 (54:32):
What is something that you're thankful for?

Speaker 2 (54:36):
Ooh, something I'm thankful for, you know?

Speaker 4 (54:39):
Mm?

Speaker 1 (54:42):
Wow, money, I'm thankful. I'm just gonna be real. I
can pay my bills, and you know, I work very hard.
I've worked very, very hard, and I'm always grateful when
I know that a check is about to clear.

Speaker 4 (54:56):
Okay, right now, I'm grateful for spring finally getting to
LA we had a I mean, I hate all winters
in Los Angeles because like, I didn't move here for that.
But today it was like in the eighties and I
turned off the space heater and.

Speaker 3 (55:11):
I was just like, blessings upon blessings.

Speaker 4 (55:13):
We're gonna be in the sweet spot now probably for
the next like two or three months, where it's just
gonna be perfect weather every day.

Speaker 3 (55:18):
And that's why I live in Los Angeles. So I'm
grateful for it.

Speaker 2 (55:22):
Yep.

Speaker 1 (55:22):
So we're dealing with fake spring. Here in DC, so
like we've been getting that sixty degree weather, but we
know that it isn't spring yet.

Speaker 4 (55:33):
Because it's not spring until you have a full allergy
attack all of April, right somebody line.

Speaker 1 (55:38):
And then I'm really enjoying that we've gotten too the
place where it's six o'clock and the sun is still
out and it's not pitch black and has not been
pitched black for like the past hour and a half.
So I'm thankful to be in that part of the year.
And then also I am thankful that it is February
the twenty seventh and March Red is paid.

Speaker 2 (55:59):
I know that's right, Yeah.

Speaker 3 (56:01):
Do it, won't do it? Yes?

Speaker 1 (56:03):
What is something that you're proud of? I am you know,
I'm actually not gonna make it about me. I am
actually proud of all the black, brown, queer people that
I see that are still moving like that makes like
still doing big stuff, still not letting this all of

(56:24):
this stuff stop them from thriving. That it literally that
fills me with so much join it makes me so
proud to see us continuing like this, You doing your show,
like to know there's another black queer show on the
network like that that makes me proud. That makes me
feel like yo, like we're out here doing it so
and that's real.

Speaker 4 (56:43):
That. Yeah, I'm really proud of something I did in February.

Speaker 3 (56:50):
I ran a half marathon. After Donald Trump won the election.

Speaker 4 (56:54):
I said, I need to funnel my anger and all
this charged energy into a thing that I can work towards.
And I said, let me just run a half marathon.
I've been running for probably fifteen years, and I'd do
it a lot, but I'd.

Speaker 3 (57:08):
Never run a race.

Speaker 4 (57:10):
So I trained up from like wwenty won until in
February ninth, and I told folks who follow me or
listen to me, let's use this race, which I probably
won't get a good time at, Let's use it to
raise some money for a really important group that is
working to stop the worst of Donald Trump's impulses, and

(57:31):
that is the ACLU of Southern California. They're on the
front lines for marginalized communities all.

Speaker 3 (57:36):
Day, every day.

Speaker 4 (57:37):
And with this race and the help of listeners and friends,
we were able to raise fifteen four hundred dollars for
the ACOU of Southern California.

Speaker 3 (57:48):
So I'm proud of that.

Speaker 4 (57:50):
And it's just one way that I'm saying, f you,
Donald Trump, we will not be defeated.

Speaker 3 (57:54):
So I'm looking for the next one.

Speaker 4 (57:55):
And I want to make a next half marathon an
excuse to take a vacation somewhere.

Speaker 2 (58:00):
I love it.

Speaker 1 (58:02):
Yep, so you ran thirteen miles and I actually donated
thirteen dollars. Oh, thank you, You're welcome.

Speaker 2 (58:10):
I love that.

Speaker 1 (58:13):
I'm proud of the way I'm prioritizing travel because you know,
there was a span where it had been a minute
since I had gotten back home to New York. And
I'm just really proud of myself for the ways in
which you know, I'm prioritizing it in this year because

(58:36):
for me it is very important because come this July,
I will be turning forty. Oh yeah, thanks over here.
So I've already been back up. I've already been back
up to New York for the read I'm going back
up to support us the next month. And then I said,

(58:58):
it's been too long that I have not been in
New York City for New York City Pride, So I'm
doing that for myself as well for you. And then
and then I said, I want to do Red Dress
run in New Orleans. I've never been to New Orleans.
So I'm just really using this turn in forty as
like an impetus to like really make sure that I'm

(59:18):
getting out there and doing those things that I've just
been putting off for too long. So I'm prout of
myself around that. Oh what is a thorn for you?
What is something that has just been rubbing you the
wrong way and has just put a bad taste in
your mouth? Well, obviously this administration, but you know what

(59:41):
else has been really bugging me. People who who back
in and I'm gonna I'm I'm gonna stay. I Am
going to stay on that hill forever and ever. Why
are you backing in? Why are you wasting everyone else's
time because you feel the need that you have.

Speaker 2 (59:55):
To back in.

Speaker 1 (59:56):
That is a big thorn in my side.

Speaker 3 (59:59):
My biggest one right now is.

Speaker 4 (01:00:03):
The wokest and most progressive among us getting angry at
folks that are actually on your side. I'm telling you,
if we run up to this election and in the aftermath,
the people who are the loudest leftist on the internet
are the meanest to the folks who are on their side.

Speaker 2 (01:00:20):
Amen.

Speaker 3 (01:00:21):
I hate it. I think it's stupid.

Speaker 4 (01:00:23):
And I think that whatever the quote unquote resistance will be,
it's going to have to understand from top to bottom
that there are several different ways to be a part
of the work, and that people don't have to look
like you and sound like you and express emotion the
same way you do while they're doing the work. And
in fact, they can be doing a different part of
the work while you're doing network over there, but it

(01:00:46):
is towards the same goal.

Speaker 3 (01:00:47):
Shut up and support, that's my thorn. Are people are
performatively angry at folks that they should be welcoming in.

Speaker 1 (01:00:55):
So my thorns to you to your point. So there's
this big economic blackout that's being planned for the last
day of Black History, which will be tomorrow at the
time it is recorded. And I'm just like, if you
go to boycott, boycott, if you're not gonna boycott, don't boycott.

(01:01:18):
I'm just tired of the grand standing on both sides.
And it's just a lot of grand standing and pontificating
and a lot of people just hurling words at each other.

Speaker 4 (01:01:30):
Yeah, it's the same lategy as when after George Floyd
everyone was like posting the black Square on Instagram, and
then there were arguments about who can post the black
square or not, and I'm like, this is doing nothing.

Speaker 2 (01:01:43):
Nothing And then John Paul, you wanted to add something.

Speaker 1 (01:01:47):
Yeah, I was going to add to your point, Sam,
I think a lot of I even had said this
on my show a couple of weeks ago. One of
my because we do yes ma'ams and no man PAMs,
one of my no mams was this idea of everyone
trying to sound be the smartest person in the room.
It's been it's really I find it to be. It's
just I wouldn't even say it's annoying. I find it
to really be part of the reason why we can't

(01:02:09):
get anywhere as people in terms of progress, because everybody
wants to be the smartest person in the room. And
it's like, yo, it's okay if you don't have anything
to add, you know, just do what you need to do.
And then another thorn for me and I saw this
just as we were getting ready to tape. Paramount has
become has become another company that has decided to roll

(01:02:31):
back its DEI initiatives. And the thorn around this is
too prong for me because one it's not like your
this government organization that has to bow down to Donald Trump,
you are choosing to And also two of the CEOs
that penned the letter a gay and openly gay. It's

(01:02:54):
not even like their closet cases.

Speaker 2 (01:02:56):
They're openly gay.

Speaker 1 (01:02:58):
Yeah, And it's just another it's just another example of
like you have these minority you have these people that
are part of minority communities that think it's not going
to happen to them, that the wildfilure is not going
to reach them, and it is.

Speaker 2 (01:03:13):
And then my last song just.

Speaker 1 (01:03:14):
To be a little like people who don't walk on
the right side of the street, Oh like.

Speaker 2 (01:03:20):
Go like let that go.

Speaker 3 (01:03:22):
You're never gonna win that battle.

Speaker 2 (01:03:26):
There are roles.

Speaker 1 (01:03:27):
There are rules to pedestrian traffic. Oh that okay, you
are like you are supposed to walk to the left
of the direction that you're going in. Same thing for
an escalator, there is a lane that you're supposed to
walk up. And then if you're gonna be a station
if you're gonna be stationary and just take the ride
up the escalator, there is a side that you're supposed

(01:03:49):
to stand on so that the people that are walking.

Speaker 3 (01:03:51):
Up and even to continue it with elevators. People always
forget the.

Speaker 4 (01:03:56):
People on the elevator got to get out first for
you walk in m M. But I've had to make
peace with this, like, no matter what happens, there's gonna
be some people out there with no home training.

Speaker 3 (01:04:07):
TEA can't fix it. You can't fix it.

Speaker 2 (01:04:10):
Okay.

Speaker 1 (01:04:11):
What is something that gives you joy?

Speaker 2 (01:04:16):
I think, you know?

Speaker 1 (01:04:19):
I so my day to day I tell people I
work for a queer youth organization and working with them
and getting to plan and getting to see them light
up about the things that give them joy, especially knowing
I didn't have that as a youth.

Speaker 2 (01:04:35):
That is.

Speaker 1 (01:04:35):
I think the thing that's been giving me a lot
of joy is just knowing that there are a lot
of Like again, I keep going back to this notion
about even of what, you know, what am I proud of?
It's seeing so many people. I'm seeing so many folks
find their voice. You know, we talked a lot about
that in this episode. I'm watching a lot of queer
folks I know personally find their voice, find who they are,

(01:04:58):
and figure out what they want want to do with
their life around that voice. And it just makes me
feel very I don't know. It's just I'm really happy
to see that outside of all the other mess that
we're having to deal with.

Speaker 4 (01:05:11):
Yeah, I mean, right now I'm catching up on the
Real Housewives of Salt Lake City and Mary Cosby a
church girl.

Speaker 3 (01:05:20):
She's wonderfully unhinted and makes me laugh every episode.

Speaker 4 (01:05:24):
She's wild, she's wild, and she throws in just the
right amount of like that crazy lady from church that
you knew very well growing up, and she makes me laugh,
it makes me smile. And in this season we're getting
a really nurturing side of her. She's helping her son
grapple with some addiction issues and she's she canna be
a good.

Speaker 3 (01:05:42):
Mom when she wants to. So I appreciate that too.
I like her.

Speaker 1 (01:05:45):
Can I also add in Traders haspen I need.

Speaker 3 (01:05:50):
Everyone says it's great, so I gotta watch it. I
gotta watch it.

Speaker 2 (01:05:54):
Yes, I'm gonna need you drinking Nike.

Speaker 1 (01:05:56):
Well, just down with your dogs and watch Traders and
get every moment.

Speaker 3 (01:06:04):
Of your life good to know.

Speaker 1 (01:06:07):
Yes, And then what's given you hope?

Speaker 4 (01:06:12):
Hmm?

Speaker 1 (01:06:13):
This, this, this has given me hope seeing you know,
there was a there was a moment you know, Sam,
I don't know when you started your journey in terms
of like entertainment media spaces, but there was a moment
in my career, I should say, where I felt like
we didn't have the Black Dolls sitting, you know and

(01:06:33):
talking and sharing fellowship. It was very you know, everyone
was very it was just caddy. People were mean for
no reason. Everyone thought that there was no space to
the table for others. And now I'm seeing that kind
of change. I'm seeing people reach out to me for things.
I'm seeing all of us. You know, I'm in spaces
with people I look up to. I mean, Sam, I
mean vibe check again. I knew a vibe check before

(01:06:57):
Black Fat fem even started, right, And so it's just
really cool to be in spaces with folks that you
honor and look up to and know that the love
is there and it's not something that's just you know again,
like you said, pontificating is one of my favorite words.
That were not faking the funk. It's really you know,
it's us, community, us finding each other, us supporting each other.

(01:07:19):
That is what gives me hope, and knowing that community
is really going to be the only thing.

Speaker 2 (01:07:22):
That saves us.

Speaker 3 (01:07:24):
I love that.

Speaker 4 (01:07:25):
What's given me hope is a particular moment I experienced
a few weeks ago. I was running errands in Culver City,
walking down the street, and I happened to pass around.

Speaker 3 (01:07:38):
Some Culver Public School students.

Speaker 4 (01:07:42):
Doing a walkout for immigrant rights and trans rights. And
they were like a block deep, and they look so
happy to be doing it, and some of their teachers
were out there with them, and I was.

Speaker 3 (01:07:53):
Like, Okay, I know, I was lost. I still have home.
The kids get it. The kids get it, you know,
they always do. But it gave me hope.

Speaker 1 (01:08:02):
Okay, Well, I want to thank you all so much
for joining me today. Just any party words. Let folks
know where they can find you. If you want to
be found, well ask for me. You can find me
at somebody's bookstore, you know, dancing and shuffling telling people
please purchase Black Fatfem Revealing the Power of visibly queer

(01:08:25):
Voices at Media, and how to Love Yourself out March March, Yeah,
March twenty fifth. You can get it on all the
places you get your books. You can also listen to
the Black Fat Fem podcast that launches new episodes every
Tuesday on Ihearts Network, and outside of that, you can
find me on door Dash spending money.

Speaker 2 (01:08:46):
I ain't got Hi.

Speaker 3 (01:08:48):
Don't hear that, I hear that. I host two shows.

Speaker 4 (01:08:53):
You can hear me on Vibe Check with my friends
Zach Stafford and Sayi Jones.

Speaker 3 (01:08:57):
We published episodes of that news and culture.

Speaker 4 (01:09:00):
Chat show every Wednesday, and then I launched in October
in partnership with KCRW, the coolest radio station in the country.
I lost the Sanders Show. That show publishes every Friday.
It runs on radio stations across the country every weekend,
and you can find episodes on your favorite podcast listening
platform and on YouTube. I were fun and funky sweaters

(01:09:24):
every week, so if you want to see how I'll
be dressing, find the Sam Sanders Show on YouTube as well.

Speaker 1 (01:09:30):
Okay, well, thank you all so much for joining. I'm
gonna let you all go to enjoy the rest of
your days, but for the congregation, you all stick around
because I just want to make sure we close it
out with a better addiction and a word of prayer.
So stay tuned.

Speaker 2 (01:10:01):
Hello everybody. If you have made it this far, you.

Speaker 1 (01:10:04):
Have made it to the end of another episode of
Hella Black Hello Queer, Hello Christian, and I just want
to thank you so much. If you were here last week,
I want to thank you for coming back. Hopefully you
brought some friends with you. And then if you're here
for the first time for this episode, thank you so
much for joining us. Catch up on episode one, and

(01:10:27):
I hope to see you for the next episode next week.
I just wanted to pop in real quick and share
two quick things. One, if you look in the description box,
and I know there's a lot of information in there
that I wanted to share with you, But if you
look in the description box, you will see that I
created a special playlist for us. It's called Last Sunday

(01:10:51):
in June, and it is a playlist of Pride anthems
that particularly focuses on and celebrates New York City Pride
because as of this episode, it is June twenty fourth,
and we are moving into the final Pride weekend, which
will culminate with the fifty fifth anniversary of the NYC

(01:11:15):
Pride Parade, which first started as the Christopher Street Liberation
Day Parade back in nineteen seventy and that was a
year after the Stonewall Rebellion, which we gave birth to
the modern day gay rights movement LGBTQIA rights movement. So,
as a black gay New Yorker who misses being able

(01:11:36):
to get home for Pride, I just was inspired to
create a playlist of some of my favorite Pride anthems.
There's about sixty tracks on there to celebrate fifty five
years of NYC Pride. Since we were already at fifty five,
I just rounded up and gave y'all five bonus tracks
for good luck. And as you can see, there is
a link for the playlist that is on Apple. There

(01:11:59):
is a link for the playlist that is on Spotify.
There is a link for the playlist that is on Title.
There's a link for the playlist that is on YouTube.
So go on and give those a listen and share
with your friends. I do also once again want to
thank doctor John Paul and Sam Sanders for joining me
for this wonderful episode which I really enjoyed and I've

(01:12:22):
enjoyed listening back to it, and hopefully you all enjoyed
listening to it as well. And be sure to follow
doctor John Paul and follow Sam on their socials so
that you can know what's going on with them and
then lastly, I wanted to come in at the end
of this episode because life happened during the original recording

(01:12:43):
of this episode and while we were doing the rapid
Fire and before we were getting ready to record the benediction,
I got an email from what at that time was
my nine to five job, National Headquarters of the NACP
letting me know that HR wanted to meet with me,
and I just immediately started to feel anxiety, and then

(01:13:06):
that anxiety was confirmed when I was laid off the
day after the recording. That was back in February. So
I'm asking for prayers. You know, I'm still doing good
here because you know, I'm staff, I'm paid talent at
iHeart so I'm okay, but am asking for prayers as

(01:13:26):
I've been walking on water since the end of February.
And also if I have some listeners who come across
things that they think may match my skill set, may
match my passions, any type of fellowships, any type of
you know, work opportunities that can generate some additional streams
of income for me, please feel free to send them

(01:13:48):
my way. Joseph Fries at iHeartMedia dot com or you
can hit me up on my socials. I'm at Joseph,
they them on ig and on Blue Sky. But it
also relates to this this episode because the original benediction
of this segment was incredibly rushed, and I just feel
like you all deserve better than what I was able

(01:14:10):
to give in that moment because I just had other
things on my mind. So I just wanted to record
the prayer portion and offer that to you all. And
initially I was gonna do kind of like the prayer
from my heart that you will get used to hearing
at the end of the episodes. But then shout out
to my brother, my comrade, Christian A. Smith, who is

(01:14:32):
the lead heretic of the Faith Community, which is a
community primarily of black deconstructionists, but with so much bigger
than that, because you have folks that are still in
the church like me, You do have folks that have
left the church and are deconstructing their Christianity.

Speaker 2 (01:14:49):
You have folks that.

Speaker 1 (01:14:50):
Are practitioners of traditional African religions and African American religions
such as who Do, and then you just have people
of no faith at all that just loved the community.
And during one of our virtual meetups, Christian pointed out
to me a prayer from a book of prayers, a

(01:15:13):
book of prayers, poems, and meditations for staying human called
Black Liturgies, and the author of it is Sister Cole
author Riley, who is just a phenomenal voice that has
risen to prominence over the past couple of years via
her Black Liturgies account on ig and is just a

(01:15:33):
wonderful thinker who I enjoy and she brings me such peace.
And in her book Black Liturgies, which is a prayer
book and a book of spiritual resource that you can
return to again and again, she has a prayer that
I just feel would be so appropriate for this last
Tuesday of Pride Month that I just want to share

(01:15:55):
with you. And the prayer is called four Queer Bodies. God,
thank you for reminding us it is okay to be incomprehensible,
to be creatures of mystery and fluidity. Be near to
us as we grieve the ways we've been pressured to

(01:16:17):
conform to others. Wish us to be renew us as
we resist the temptation to perform and embodiment that isn't
true to us. But help us to have compassion for
ourselves when it seems as if enacting us your raade
is the only way to be safe and loved. Grant

(01:16:38):
us an interior clarity that is unwavering in the face
of transphobia and homophobia, that we might withstand every critique
and dismissal, the overt and the passive aggressive. Help us
to travel into those stories of feeling alienated in our
own bodies and return back to ourselves with dignity crying

(01:17:00):
out from every bone. We reject the lie that our
bodies are bad. We reject the lie that our bodies
are bad. We reject the lie that our bodies are bad.
We reject the lie that our bodies are bad. We
rebuke the lie that we are dirty. We rebuke the

(01:17:23):
lie that we are dirty. We rebuke the lie that
we are dirty. We rebuke the lie that we are dirty,
And we honor our truest voice, our self knowledge as
central to our own making and remaking. Against hope, we
are found a way to hear the truth of us

(01:17:46):
amid the vitriol of this world. May these queer bodies
be a beacon to a world in bondage to its
own binaries. May our flesh liberate the world and to
embodied attiment. And once again that was the prayer for
queer bodies from our sister cole author Riley. And once again,

(01:18:08):
thank you to my brother, my comrade, my friend who
has just been such a support to me. Brother Christian,
a Smith of the Faith community also host and creator
of the Holy Smokes podcast Cigars and Spirituality, for hipping
me to this prayer. And that will wrap up another
episode of Hella Black, Hello Queer, Hello Christian. So please like,

(01:18:32):
please comment, please rate five stars. Then please share with
your friends and tell a friend to tell a friend,
to tell a friend to tell a friend to tell
a friend. So until next time, if you have not
heard it yet today, please know that I love you
very very very very much. I thank you for your time,

(01:18:54):
I thank you for listening, and I look forward to
seeing you again next week. EP

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