October 1, 2025 • 32 mins
In this episode, Kevin Cirilli speaks with veteran space journalist Leonard David about the recent U.S. congressional hearings on unidentified aerial phenomena (UAPs) and their far-reaching implications. The discussion unpacks national security concerns, the challenges of government transparency, and how private industry is increasingly shaping UAP research and space technology. David also shares insights from astronauts on the possibility of extraterrestrial intelligence and what these revelations could mean for the future of space exploration.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
United States Congress has been conducting these hearings on UAPs
and UFOs, and they recently had these hearings on Capitol
Hill where military whistleblowers were sharing new evidence of alleged
UAPs at a transparency hearing convened by the House Oversight
and Government Reforms Committees task Force on these topics. Is
(00:23):
the government covering up UFOs extraterrestrial life visiting Planet Earth?
This isn't a scene from a science fiction movie. This
isn't some wild wing conspiracy theory. These are the questions
that are being asked by the United States Congress. And
I don't think there's enough transparency on it. I really don't.
(00:45):
Hello Future, it's me Kevin. This is a dispatch from
the Digital Frontier. The year is twenty twenty five. The
planet is Earth. My name is Kevin SURRILLI and my
guest today is the Waltkronkite of outer space. His name
is Leonard David. You can check out all of his
work at Leonard David dot com. He is one of
the most respected space journalists in the world. He has
(01:06):
been reporting on space exploration for more than fifty years,
covering everything from Apollo to Artemis. He is the author
of Moon Rush, The New Space Race, as well as
Mars Our Future on the Red Planet, both published by
National Geographic. He is also the co author with Apollo
eleven astronaut Buzz Aldrin on Mission to Mars, My Vision
(01:27):
for Space Exploration. Leonard, thanks so much for coming back
on Hello Future. What do you make of these UAP hearings?
Are aliens visiting planet Earth? And is the government covering
it up?
Speaker 2 (01:41):
Well, you know, thanks for having me. Its great opportunity
to express my confusion, because, you know, the whole UFO
scene and the UAP scene, maybe they're two different things.
That would be my first point. I I'm not convinced
(02:01):
that the UAP that gets rolled into UFO and all
the flying sauc or you know, legacy things that have
happened over the decades. Maybe there are two different things.
And I'm not sure. But that's where I'm listening to
the latest hearing, which is like maybe the third or
(02:22):
fourth one in a row Congress has had recently. Are
we better off because of them? Of those hearings? And
I listen to all the people testifying they believe in
what they believe in, and you're the hearing the gabble
comes down and it's over, and is it over? What
happens now? And I'm not sure I see movement anywhere
(02:47):
other than a few little things in Congress that look
like they're trying to get back to what you said,
which is, you know, give anybody that believes they've been
involved in and some kind of conspiracy the ability to
go and testify without some retribusion. So that's going on.
(03:08):
But it's really fascinating stuff. And I'll tell you in
a minute why I think that.
Speaker 1 (03:17):
Well, to your point, a UAP that stands for an
unidentified anomalist phenomena, whereas UFO is an unidentified flying object.
So UAP is much broader in terms of the scope
and the domain of what it can cover. But I
think for me, the question that I've really been wrestling
(03:38):
with is this idea of disclosure because you have private
industry who could come into contact with forms of technology
that are not of this world. This was testified to Congress,
and then it's difficult for the government to then have
access to that technology. Can you help untethered that issue
(04:01):
for our audience on how private industry can come into
contact with a UAP? Or a crash of a UAP
and be able to have that technology, whereas the government
in Congress and elected officials might not be able to
have that same access.
Speaker 2 (04:18):
Yeah, it's really a complex question, and it's a complex
answer because I think, you know, I've been privy to
in my past. I had some classification things where I
was privy to certain things a long time ago, and
you know, some of this stuff you really want to
(04:40):
keep secret because there's a lot of aerospace activity that
we're not aware of, new advanced fighter concepts and drones particularly,
and also my guess is there's a test program that
is out there that actually tries to spoof our own
(05:01):
fighters with an authority to have them be involved in
some kind of test program that they're not even aware of.
That said, I think there's something to all this, and
disclosure is a real interesting part of it for me,
and why I'm fascinated with this whole evolution of the
(05:22):
folklore of the UFO UAP, and that is, at some
point the public is going to be faced with contact
with extraterstal intelligence if they haven't been already. And I
think maybe you can make a case and it could
be right that all This is prelude to try to
(05:43):
socialize the public for getting ready for this event, because
I think that would be a big event to actually
have the documentation of imagery, the photographs where everything signs
up on the dotted law that this is real stuff
that we've had contact with other intelligence societies. So it's
(06:07):
a puzzle in an enigma enigma, it's out of control.
It's all fascinating, but I do think it's prelude to
something that the public is going to have to face.
Speaker 1 (06:21):
Leonard David is my guest. He is one of the best.
He is the best space journalists. You can find his
reporting at SpaceNews dot com. You can go to Leonard
David dot com. He's issued he's authored numerous books with
National Geographic as well as with buzz Aldrin. You just
made a really big claim there, and I want to
let it pause and let the audience sit with it
(06:43):
for a second, which is you are predicting that humanity
is going to have to grapple with extraterrestrial intelligence reaching
planet Earth and our advancements in technology, whether it's artificial
intelligence or these telescopes that are making discoveries that Galileo
(07:06):
made that the kids learn about in school, and now
these Galileo level of discoveries are being made, you know,
by the thousands every year. Do you think that event
that you're talking about is going to happen in the
next twenty years.
Speaker 2 (07:24):
I you know, in some ways it may have already
happened and we're not aware of it yet. It hasn't
assomulated itself through Congress or the President or whatever. You know,
But there's something to this. It's pretty it's weird though,
it definitely is awful strange, And as a journalist, I
(07:46):
tell you you're driven to keep your mind open on this
because I feel like we're close in on this kind
of revelation for the American public and the world, because,
you know, just take the whole hump of what's going on,
and the whole hum is like exo planets are being
(08:07):
found all over the place, and we've just begun the
search to James Webb space telescope, the Hubble space based capabilities,
plus a lot of new ground stations. Ground observatories are
coming online, the Vera Reuben Observatory in particular. I just
see revelation coming again. It's it's a question of it's
(08:29):
a corny question when I'm up at late at night
and I can't figure out how to end the damn
story on alien life, and you go, you know, are
we alone? With a question mark? I hate that. I
try to avoid that because the question is nothing more
than not are we alone? But how crowded is it
out there? Wow? That's what that's what's coming?
Speaker 1 (08:52):
Well, what was so? You know, it's such a great,
great point, and these hearings from my perspective, the reason
I want to be complimentary of the hearings is because
for people like me, and I'm not an astrophysicist, I'm
just a guy who likes to read sci fi and
watch action movies like Interstellar. But for people like me
who always had that curiosity, you know, and I've worked
(09:13):
at some of the mainstream media organizations, you'd be laughed at, Okay,
you would literally be laughed at if you pitched those
stories or you showed an interest in covering those types
of stories. And that always frustrated me as a journalist.
And it's why Leonard David, who has done such great
work with Space News, with National Geographic, why he's such
a beacon of truth and of light in the industry,
(09:36):
and why people should emulate his reporting and seek to
follow his path is because he's not laughed at. He
is the Tim Russert or the Walt Kronkite or you know,
these great journalists who have gone in the political world
but for the space industry. And it's why buzz Aldrin
co authored a book with him. So when he says
what he's saying, it's not conspiracy, folks. Is this is
(09:58):
what really smart, intelligent journalists and astronauts and astrophysicists have
been saying for a very long time. And now only
now I believe the Congress is starting to pay attention
and as a result, the political press. But that's another issue.
The one thing that kind of the bombshells at these
(10:18):
recent hearings, it was a third UAP hearing in recent years,
was that there was a hellfire missile that bounced off
of a UAP. So during the hearing, Representative Eric Burrelson
played a previously unseen video that essentially reportedly captured an
MQ nine Reaper drone off the coast of Yemen in
(10:40):
October of twenty twenty four, and the footage appears to
show a health fire missile fired at a glowing orb
like object a UAP, which is then seen bouncing off
the UAP without causing any damage before the object speeds away.
And maybe you've seen these images. You can easily find
them online. You also had whistle blower testimonies where multiple
(11:01):
military whistleblowers testified under oath that they have witnessed UAPs
and that the US intelligence has attempted to conceal these incidents.
There were also these other allegation allegations, but the reports
of entities from deep water so Representative Tim Burchett. He
commented on reports of entities coming from deep water areas,
referencing naval personnel who have allegedly seen underwater craft traveling
(11:25):
at hundreds of miles per hour. This is so incredibly
important because it could cause conflict amongst nations as well.
So as you track these reports in these hearings, you've
got on the one hand, the dynamic between private industry
and the military and governments. But then you also have
(11:47):
the ability of a UAP inadvertently starting conflict between other countries. Right,
I mean, the national security ramifications of these questions and
these hearings are they can't be understated.
Speaker 2 (12:00):
Yeah, well, but you're adding a lot of comment out
of video that it has been disclaimed by a couple
of folks, and one of them kind of in my
UFO UAP conglomeration of readers. You know, they hate me
when I bring this up, but I mean people have
looked at that video and they find squirrely things in
(12:20):
that whole thing. The one guy that really hangs out
there that everybody hates because he's he's pretty sharp and
he's not to be discounted is you know, we shot
down a balloon and he has a pretty nick West
is his name, and some people WinCE when they hear
(12:41):
his name because he does take time to take those
videos apart and it comes up with alternate explanations of
what you're seeing. So we've been down this video path
a bunch of times and it's not clear to me
that that's helping the situation. I'm not sure. You know,
you have people that revolve around them, but we're going
(13:03):
to need a lot more info and we may be
getting there. But again, the UAP thing and drones and
super classified things, and people will say, well, you know,
we don't have any ability to do dropping down from
outer space to the ocean and back up. But whatever,
(13:25):
you know, they come up with all this stuff, we're
going to have to get much more detail. And unfortunately,
there are people that are spending a lot of time
on this, and the Pentagon, rightly or wrongly, has set
up their own you know, advance. You know, they're looking
at this phenomenon and who knows what they're going to
come up with. Alvi Low, there's a bunch of groups
(13:46):
that have camera systems that are developing specifically to look
at UAP phenomenon. Whatever that phenomenon is. You have NASA
do a study and again I'm a little not happy
with NASA not following up on that study. You know
that they made a lot of claims and discussion points
(14:08):
about you know, there was nothing here, but it needs
more study and we need more data. And that's the
scientific aspect of it all is they always want more data.
You know, where's the data going? And you know, all
these systems that people have set up isn't being filtered.
And there are some very reputable UAP groups that I
(14:29):
defer to all the time that you know, I think
are doing great work trying to decipher this. Because you
wonder whether we're often a wrong path. You know, I
keep thinking from a journalistic standpoint, I don't see if
they're there yet. And you know, I got to be
honest with you, I just don't. I'm confused by the
(14:51):
whole phenomenon, and it could be something totally different than
than what we think are you know, you get all
these groups that have now we're often to all kinds
of different kind of consciousness raising explanations of what we're saying.
Time travel, it's us coming back in time.
Speaker 1 (15:14):
Yep.
Speaker 2 (15:15):
I always like that one. I think in the future
we're going to have time travel, and I'm not sure
that what we may not be aware of is that
we're visiting ourselves.
Speaker 1 (15:26):
It could also be interdimensional. It could be interdimensional, which
is something that I'm always dimsal.
Speaker 2 (15:32):
But you know, I got enough problems with dimensions right now. Well,
my question is a dementia of the UAP thing that
I'm worried about.
Speaker 1 (15:44):
But my question is why why. What frustrates me as
a taxpayer is I think that if there's all of
these funds that are being allocated, I just think that
there's not enough transparency and and there needs to be
and I think It's a totally question. You know, you
always say, think like a journalist, well, follow the money,
(16:04):
and to follow the money is to why why can't
the public be able to know where their money, where
their taxes are going, especially if as it relates to
trying to figure out what some of these UAP's UFOs are.
I mean, it's not hunky dory stuff anymore. Clearly there's
something happening. Let's figure out what it is. Because to
(16:26):
your point, there are great things like the Galileo Project
and obvious been on our show, and you know, there's
a ton of these great public private partnerships that are
looking into this. Why can't there be more transparency? Why
do you think the government is not being or do
you think maybe I'm just maybe you disagree with this,
But how do you rate or what do you think
of the government's transparency either good or bad in terms
(16:49):
of this issue?
Speaker 2 (16:51):
Yeah, well, yeah, when you have transparency, you need windex
because I'm not sure how much transparency the government wants
to tell you. I mean, there are classified things that
lead off to exposing some national security capability that we
have not told the public about the government has not
(17:12):
so you've got to be aware of that. It's omnipresent.
And I think that's where these committees are running into,
perhaps some kind of, you know, capability that the country
has that we don't want to let everybody else know about.
But I think your term transparency is pretty It's interesting
(17:35):
because you know, I'm too old. Transparency with jfk assassination,
transparency with Malcolm's assassination. You know, all the people pro
transparency around pretty easily. It's clear to me that transparency
is hard to see through. So I'm not sure where
(17:59):
I'm going. Let me let me go back to something
that as a kid, and I don't want to labor
this point, but grew up in San Diego and we're
talking nineteen forties, fifties, and the guy that was omnipresent
(18:19):
on the television at that time was Georgia Damski coming
down from Mount Palomar Mountain. And anybody who lived in
San Diego knew how important Mount Palomar was the biggest
telescope we ever had. This guy lived in a place
up there, and he came down from the mountain all
the time talking about his last trip from Venus. He
(18:41):
was already coming back from Venus and you know, as
a kid, you just you just devour this kind of
thing because you know, meanwhile, we had Vanguard US first
satellite attempt to explode on the launchpad. We had Nick
going the space race was really really severe. I mean
(19:05):
it was a beat beat, beat moment. And here's here's
Georgia Danski coming down from I just got back from Venus.
I'm telling you it's hot there, you know, so you
believe all that. And when I'm getting to there is
a cottage industry and sell UFO UAP And I think
anybody that's trying to follow all this has got to
(19:28):
be aware that there's some hocksterism going on, because people
are setting up, you know, lots of organizations around this
phenomenon knowing that it is something that's gnawing at the
general public or at least some select group that cares
about all this. So you have to take all that
into account. I mean, it's just part of the process
(19:51):
trying to get to the bottom line of it all.
Speaker 1 (19:54):
Well, it's such a great point. Here's for those wondering
about George m to your point, sold a bunch of books.
I think that speaks to this. This this part of society
that wants truth, that wants to feel less alone almost
you know, and once there wants there to be something
(20:16):
bigger the understanding our place in the universe. But to
your point, you can't lie to the public. I mean,
and there are a ton of hucksters. Which is why
I have so much respect for you, is because you're
a real journalist who you can really follow. You know,
you've interacted as we wrap up this this episode of
talking about the UAP hearings with Congress and whatnot, you've
interacted with so many of the biggest and brightest and
(20:39):
smartest folks in this whole industry and on these issues.
Do you think put it in perspective for us just
in terms of recent US history? Do you think that
this is just the start of these type of hearings
or is this just a one off? Or will Congress
keep addressing these types of issues.
Speaker 2 (21:00):
I think it really depends on the committee members. I
mean they definitely Luna, who ran the hearing, seems to
be adamant about to get into the You mentioned Tim Burchett,
and that guy is pretty adamant. And for your listeners,
I'd say go back and listen to a journalist that
(21:22):
was on that panel. I don't know him very well.
We've had some interaction with George Knapp testified, and he's
been following this longer than most of those people up
on the hill. And the conundrum that he expressed and
trying to follow all this was palpable to me as
a as a fellow writer journalist trying to get the
truth out of where we are. And you know, if
(21:44):
he's confused, I'm certainly confused.
Speaker 1 (21:47):
Yeah. No, well said. And when you talked to astronauts
and whatnot, and I don't want you to speak out
a turn, but what is the what is there? What
can you share with their audience about their understanding and
their perception of other extraterrestrial intelligences because it also could
(22:08):
be another civilization's technology. It might not even be the
aliens themselves, which is another thing, another part of this,
which is we could just be seeing their technology and
not the actual thing, because for example, we're sending Mars
rovers and whatnot and satellites elsewhere. That's not humans. That's
a form of human technology. What is their understanding and
the consensus if you can give us one about their
(22:30):
thoughts on all of this? For folks who have actually
been they.
Speaker 2 (22:33):
Have the privilege of talking to it and interviewing a
lot of astronauts and then working with Buzz on the
Buzz Aldro on several articles and books. You know, I
think when I get out of all that, you know,
you have the overview effect of being in orbit looking
(22:56):
down at the Earth, and you have this overwhelming view
of the Earth. But there is an overwhelming look out
when you you know, you talk to Buzz looking out,
looking out Jack Harrison Smith, the Apollo seventeen astronaut from
the December of seventy two mission, you know, it's overwhelming.
(23:20):
It's an overwhelming effect, and it's humbling. You know, it's
all I ever get out. I mean, I'm not sure
I'm ever going to get into a place I can
get that same you talk to James Lovell or any
of the pioneering Apollo astronauts, we just lost the level.
(23:41):
And yeah, it just seems like ed edgar Mitchell, you know,
very interesting guy. I did have a really interesting comment
from Gordon Cooper from Mercury early Mercury program. These guys
(24:02):
were single seat flying in orbit. We didn't know what
was happened to the human body. But Gordon Cooper was
pretty adamant about his experiences with UFOs in his career,
and you know, it was riveting listening to him, and
you know, you're listening to a guy that had all
that experience about flying. You know, other people have discounted
(24:25):
what he said all I know, they most likely never
talked to him face to face. And when you listen
to that kind of conversation, you kind of walk away
and go, Wow, this guy went through some shit. I mean,
that's pretty interesting. He was pretty adamant about what he
was involved in with UFOs. It is amazing that we
(24:47):
have this human capability of putting people off planet outward,
and why not the reverse. Other civilizations have conquered this
great gulf of space, the intervening void of confusion. You know,
we've got a lot of room out there, and who
knows what people have come up with. And that is
(25:07):
one thing that bothers me that we have a one
off kind of aliens coming here. My guess is, if
it's teeming with life out there, we may be experiencing
multiple kinds of visitations to all kinds of capabilities that
have been harnessed by other intelligent civilizations.
Speaker 1 (25:27):
It's so fascinating. It's like there's a lot of different vehicles.
There's boats, there's trains, there's planes, there's cars, you know,
and to your point, all of it zooming around planet Earth.
But to your point, there could be I never thought
of that, So I just I just you just gave
me a new way of thinking, which is why I
(25:47):
love doing the show, which.
Speaker 2 (25:48):
Is we got to meet in the Star Wars bar
because I thought that was pretty telling, you know, you know,
they had a room full of aliens from all over
the place. And maybe that's what we're experiencing. Maybe some
people have conquered the great divide between our planet uh
(26:09):
and other civilization. So who knows, But that's what's so
much fun. I agree, that is space exploration. Keeping your
mind open and try not to be too cynical because
you're most likely you're going to wind up in a hole.
I try to keep my mind open, but you know,
I don't want to be gullible either.
Speaker 1 (26:29):
No, that's how that's how I feel, and and and
for me, and we'll end it here. And for me,
I just think, you know, as someone and I don't
talk about this hardly ever, but as as a person
of faith and I am a Catholic. To me, it
is really profound that we don't even think. We're not
(26:50):
even taught to think as kids about other galaxies and
universe and exoplanets. I mean, it wasn't until a couple
of years ago when I heard that our Solar system
has millions of rocks for lack of a better word,
you know that planets like Jupiter and Saturn have dozens
(27:10):
of moons. You know, I thought it was just Mercury, Venus, Earth, Mars,
the asteroid belt, Jupiter, You're in a Neptune and Pluto. No,
it's like there's the whole, you know, outside of that,
there's just there's millions of objects just floating around in
our Solar system. I mean, we are literally just a
(27:31):
speck of sand in our own Solar system. And so
it is, it really is just it. It does leave
you with that sense of wonderment and just possibility. And
I think the reason I love this, and I can't
thank you enough for your time, Leonard, truly is that
there's so much a lot of bad stuff happening on
planet Earth, and if we can just give people just
(27:52):
that dose of exploration of possibility can said the unknown,
not with fear and doomsday. Although I do love the
movie Arm Again him with Ben Affleck and Bruce Wis.
That's a great movie because my dad's a My dad
is engineer, but he worked in refineries, and I'm like that.
(28:12):
When I was a kid, I was like, that's pretty cool.
They send the drillers up to the asteroid, which is
wild by the way, mind the minimoons and will solve
the deficit. But but if we can give people hope
and optimism, the thing I love most about all this
is it gives people a new way of thinking, and
that I think we all need, especially right now. Last word,
(28:33):
my friend, Oh, we're on a roll.
Speaker 2 (28:36):
I hope we're rolling somewhere forward and uh and uh,
you know, you know, watching this interstellar object come in
that's getting closer to Earth and trying to figure out
what that is. It could be a comet, could be
you know, Alvi lobe is opening the opportunity to think
(28:58):
it's something uh, you know, extraterrestrial created somehow who knows.
I don't know, but that that is that really is
the core of being inquisitive, being open minded, and try
not to be too gullible. You know, I'm not a
(29:19):
physics student, and I kind of avoided physics in school.
Physics can lead you astray in some way. I'm sure
we're going to be coming up a new physics in
the future to get into this.
Speaker 1 (29:31):
Like what were you like as a how did you
choose this as a profession.
Speaker 2 (29:38):
Well, that's a good question. I try to remember. You know,
early on, I really want my parents in Waco, Texas.
I lived in Waco, Texas. You know, the first Spotnik
one flew over our home. It was the first satellite
by the former Soviet Union. And seeing a human made
(29:59):
machine in orbit, and you know, you're a kid that
glued to me. Now, I don't know if I saw
Putnik one, the actual satellite I think was too small,
but certainly the booster that put it up the last
stage and I saw that, and uh, you know that
was a big moment for me. And uh uh you
(30:21):
know that. And I broke the glasses and made a
telescope out of them, and you know, uh kept looking
up and that's how it all began. And I actually
had I actually sold a newspaper. I wrote a handwritten
newspaper in my neighborhood for a nickel. I went around
to the neighborhood and uh and sold it for a nickel.
(30:45):
Talked about space, It talked about foot nick it talked
about some new National geographic getting back to them. They
had an issue way back of a V two run
because they had a camera at it went up to
the you know, way out there and then come crashing back.
(31:08):
But the photographs it was one of those you know
when you open up a thing and the pages come
out and get a panoramic thing and that structure. O, my god,
we're up there pretty high. That was that. Those are
the formative things about linking interest in space and rocketry
(31:28):
and astronautics.
Speaker 1 (31:30):
For me, that's just amazing. I can't thank you enough
for all that you've done, No, really, so truly thank
you so much for this conversation on being a guest
on this because honestly, people like you give Hello future
so much credibility. So I can't thank you enough. And
where are you based.
Speaker 2 (31:49):
I'm up here at nine thousand feet between Boulder, Colorado
and Golden Colorado. We'reasbout as high as you can get
to get closer to the stars and playing much I
love that.
Speaker 1 (32:01):
Well, when I'm next time i'm at in Colorado, I
will buy you coffee, my friend, and I can't thank you. Yeah,
I appreciate you. Thank you, thank you, thank you. Having
great tomorrow today all.
Speaker 2 (32:12):
Right, keep looking up.
Speaker 1 (32:14):
Thanks
United States Congress has been conducting these hearings on UAPs
and UFOs, and they recently had these hearings on Capitol
Hill where military whistleblowers were sharing new evidence of alleged
UAPs at a transparency hearing convened by the House Oversight
and Government Reforms Committees task Force on these topics. Is
(00:23):
the government covering up UFOs extraterrestrial life visiting Planet Earth?
This isn't a scene from a science fiction movie. This
isn't some wild wing conspiracy theory. These are the questions
that are being asked by the United States Congress. And
I don't think there's enough transparency on it. I really don't.
(00:45):
Hello Future, it's me Kevin. This is a dispatch from
the Digital Frontier. The year is twenty twenty five. The
planet is Earth. My name is Kevin SURRILLI and my
guest today is the Waltkronkite of outer space. His name
is Leonard David. You can check out all of his
work at Leonard David dot com. He is one of
the most respected space journalists in the world. He has
(01:06):
been reporting on space exploration for more than fifty years,
covering everything from Apollo to Artemis. He is the author
of Moon Rush, The New Space Race, as well as
Mars Our Future on the Red Planet, both published by
National Geographic. He is also the co author with Apollo
eleven astronaut Buzz Aldrin on Mission to Mars, My Vision
(01:27):
for Space Exploration. Leonard, thanks so much for coming back
on Hello Future. What do you make of these UAP hearings?
Are aliens visiting planet Earth? And is the government covering
it up?
Speaker 2 (01:41):
Well, you know, thanks for having me. Its great opportunity
to express my confusion, because, you know, the whole UFO
scene and the UAP scene, maybe they're two different things.
That would be my first point. I I'm not convinced
(02:01):
that the UAP that gets rolled into UFO and all
the flying sauc or you know, legacy things that have
happened over the decades. Maybe there are two different things.
And I'm not sure. But that's where I'm listening to
the latest hearing, which is like maybe the third or
(02:22):
fourth one in a row Congress has had recently. Are
we better off because of them? Of those hearings? And
I listen to all the people testifying they believe in
what they believe in, and you're the hearing the gabble
comes down and it's over, and is it over? What
happens now? And I'm not sure I see movement anywhere
(02:47):
other than a few little things in Congress that look
like they're trying to get back to what you said,
which is, you know, give anybody that believes they've been
involved in and some kind of conspiracy the ability to
go and testify without some retribusion. So that's going on.
(03:08):
But it's really fascinating stuff. And I'll tell you in
a minute why I think that.
Speaker 1 (03:17):
Well, to your point, a UAP that stands for an
unidentified anomalist phenomena, whereas UFO is an unidentified flying object.
So UAP is much broader in terms of the scope
and the domain of what it can cover. But I
think for me, the question that I've really been wrestling
(03:38):
with is this idea of disclosure because you have private
industry who could come into contact with forms of technology
that are not of this world. This was testified to Congress,
and then it's difficult for the government to then have
access to that technology. Can you help untethered that issue
(04:01):
for our audience on how private industry can come into
contact with a UAP? Or a crash of a UAP
and be able to have that technology, whereas the government
in Congress and elected officials might not be able to
have that same access.
Speaker 2 (04:18):
Yeah, it's really a complex question, and it's a complex
answer because I think, you know, I've been privy to
in my past. I had some classification things where I
was privy to certain things a long time ago, and
you know, some of this stuff you really want to
(04:40):
keep secret because there's a lot of aerospace activity that
we're not aware of, new advanced fighter concepts and drones particularly,
and also my guess is there's a test program that
is out there that actually tries to spoof our own
(05:01):
fighters with an authority to have them be involved in
some kind of test program that they're not even aware of.
That said, I think there's something to all this, and
disclosure is a real interesting part of it for me,
and why I'm fascinated with this whole evolution of the
(05:22):
folklore of the UFO UAP, and that is, at some
point the public is going to be faced with contact
with extraterstal intelligence if they haven't been already. And I
think maybe you can make a case and it could
be right that all This is prelude to try to
(05:43):
socialize the public for getting ready for this event, because
I think that would be a big event to actually
have the documentation of imagery, the photographs where everything signs
up on the dotted law that this is real stuff
that we've had contact with other intelligence societies. So it's
(06:07):
a puzzle in an enigma enigma, it's out of control.
It's all fascinating, but I do think it's prelude to
something that the public is going to have to face.
Speaker 1 (06:21):
Leonard David is my guest. He is one of the best.
He is the best space journalists. You can find his
reporting at SpaceNews dot com. You can go to Leonard
David dot com. He's issued he's authored numerous books with
National Geographic as well as with buzz Aldrin. You just
made a really big claim there, and I want to
let it pause and let the audience sit with it
(06:43):
for a second, which is you are predicting that humanity
is going to have to grapple with extraterrestrial intelligence reaching
planet Earth and our advancements in technology, whether it's artificial
intelligence or these telescopes that are making discoveries that Galileo
(07:06):
made that the kids learn about in school, and now
these Galileo level of discoveries are being made, you know,
by the thousands every year. Do you think that event
that you're talking about is going to happen in the
next twenty years.
Speaker 2 (07:24):
I you know, in some ways it may have already
happened and we're not aware of it yet. It hasn't
assomulated itself through Congress or the President or whatever. You know,
But there's something to this. It's pretty it's weird though,
it definitely is awful strange, And as a journalist, I
(07:46):
tell you you're driven to keep your mind open on this
because I feel like we're close in on this kind
of revelation for the American public and the world, because,
you know, just take the whole hump of what's going on,
and the whole hum is like exo planets are being
(08:07):
found all over the place, and we've just begun the
search to James Webb space telescope, the Hubble space based capabilities,
plus a lot of new ground stations. Ground observatories are
coming online, the Vera Reuben Observatory in particular. I just
see revelation coming again. It's it's a question of it's
(08:29):
a corny question when I'm up at late at night
and I can't figure out how to end the damn
story on alien life, and you go, you know, are
we alone? With a question mark? I hate that. I
try to avoid that because the question is nothing more
than not are we alone? But how crowded is it
out there? Wow? That's what that's what's coming?
Speaker 1 (08:52):
Well, what was so? You know, it's such a great,
great point, and these hearings from my perspective, the reason
I want to be complimentary of the hearings is because
for people like me, and I'm not an astrophysicist, I'm
just a guy who likes to read sci fi and
watch action movies like Interstellar. But for people like me
who always had that curiosity, you know, and I've worked
(09:13):
at some of the mainstream media organizations, you'd be laughed at, Okay,
you would literally be laughed at if you pitched those
stories or you showed an interest in covering those types
of stories. And that always frustrated me as a journalist.
And it's why Leonard David, who has done such great
work with Space News, with National Geographic, why he's such
a beacon of truth and of light in the industry,
(09:36):
and why people should emulate his reporting and seek to
follow his path is because he's not laughed at. He
is the Tim Russert or the Walt Kronkite or you know,
these great journalists who have gone in the political world
but for the space industry. And it's why buzz Aldrin
co authored a book with him. So when he says
what he's saying, it's not conspiracy, folks. Is this is
(09:58):
what really smart, intelligent journalists and astronauts and astrophysicists have
been saying for a very long time. And now only
now I believe the Congress is starting to pay attention
and as a result, the political press. But that's another issue.
The one thing that kind of the bombshells at these
(10:18):
recent hearings, it was a third UAP hearing in recent years,
was that there was a hellfire missile that bounced off
of a UAP. So during the hearing, Representative Eric Burrelson
played a previously unseen video that essentially reportedly captured an
MQ nine Reaper drone off the coast of Yemen in
(10:40):
October of twenty twenty four, and the footage appears to
show a health fire missile fired at a glowing orb
like object a UAP, which is then seen bouncing off
the UAP without causing any damage before the object speeds away.
And maybe you've seen these images. You can easily find
them online. You also had whistle blower testimonies where multiple
(11:01):
military whistleblowers testified under oath that they have witnessed UAPs
and that the US intelligence has attempted to conceal these incidents.
There were also these other allegation allegations, but the reports
of entities from deep water so Representative Tim Burchett. He
commented on reports of entities coming from deep water areas,
referencing naval personnel who have allegedly seen underwater craft traveling
(11:25):
at hundreds of miles per hour. This is so incredibly
important because it could cause conflict amongst nations as well.
So as you track these reports in these hearings, you've
got on the one hand, the dynamic between private industry
and the military and governments. But then you also have
(11:47):
the ability of a UAP inadvertently starting conflict between other countries. Right,
I mean, the national security ramifications of these questions and
these hearings are they can't be understated.
Speaker 2 (12:00):
Yeah, well, but you're adding a lot of comment out
of video that it has been disclaimed by a couple
of folks, and one of them kind of in my
UFO UAP conglomeration of readers. You know, they hate me
when I bring this up, but I mean people have
looked at that video and they find squirrely things in
(12:20):
that whole thing. The one guy that really hangs out
there that everybody hates because he's he's pretty sharp and
he's not to be discounted is you know, we shot
down a balloon and he has a pretty nick West
is his name, and some people WinCE when they hear
(12:41):
his name because he does take time to take those
videos apart and it comes up with alternate explanations of
what you're seeing. So we've been down this video path
a bunch of times and it's not clear to me
that that's helping the situation. I'm not sure. You know,
you have people that revolve around them, but we're going
(13:03):
to need a lot more info and we may be
getting there. But again, the UAP thing and drones and
super classified things, and people will say, well, you know,
we don't have any ability to do dropping down from
outer space to the ocean and back up. But whatever,
(13:25):
you know, they come up with all this stuff, we're
going to have to get much more detail. And unfortunately,
there are people that are spending a lot of time
on this, and the Pentagon, rightly or wrongly, has set
up their own you know, advance. You know, they're looking
at this phenomenon and who knows what they're going to
come up with. Alvi Low, there's a bunch of groups
(13:46):
that have camera systems that are developing specifically to look
at UAP phenomenon. Whatever that phenomenon is. You have NASA
do a study and again I'm a little not happy
with NASA not following up on that study. You know
that they made a lot of claims and discussion points
(14:08):
about you know, there was nothing here, but it needs
more study and we need more data. And that's the
scientific aspect of it all is they always want more data.
You know, where's the data going? And you know, all
these systems that people have set up isn't being filtered.
And there are some very reputable UAP groups that I
(14:29):
defer to all the time that you know, I think
are doing great work trying to decipher this. Because you
wonder whether we're often a wrong path. You know, I
keep thinking from a journalistic standpoint, I don't see if
they're there yet. And you know, I got to be
honest with you, I just don't. I'm confused by the
(14:51):
whole phenomenon, and it could be something totally different than
than what we think are you know, you get all
these groups that have now we're often to all kinds
of different kind of consciousness raising explanations of what we're saying.
Time travel, it's us coming back in time.
Speaker 1 (15:14):
Yep.
Speaker 2 (15:15):
I always like that one. I think in the future
we're going to have time travel, and I'm not sure
that what we may not be aware of is that
we're visiting ourselves.
Speaker 1 (15:26):
It could also be interdimensional. It could be interdimensional, which
is something that I'm always dimsal.
Speaker 2 (15:32):
But you know, I got enough problems with dimensions right now. Well,
my question is a dementia of the UAP thing that
I'm worried about.
Speaker 1 (15:44):
But my question is why why. What frustrates me as
a taxpayer is I think that if there's all of
these funds that are being allocated, I just think that
there's not enough transparency and and there needs to be
and I think It's a totally question. You know, you
always say, think like a journalist, well, follow the money,
(16:04):
and to follow the money is to why why can't
the public be able to know where their money, where
their taxes are going, especially if as it relates to
trying to figure out what some of these UAP's UFOs are.
I mean, it's not hunky dory stuff anymore. Clearly there's
something happening. Let's figure out what it is. Because to
(16:26):
your point, there are great things like the Galileo Project
and obvious been on our show, and you know, there's
a ton of these great public private partnerships that are
looking into this. Why can't there be more transparency? Why
do you think the government is not being or do
you think maybe I'm just maybe you disagree with this,
But how do you rate or what do you think
of the government's transparency either good or bad in terms
(16:49):
of this issue?
Speaker 2 (16:51):
Yeah, well, yeah, when you have transparency, you need windex
because I'm not sure how much transparency the government wants
to tell you. I mean, there are classified things that
lead off to exposing some national security capability that we
have not told the public about the government has not
(17:12):
so you've got to be aware of that. It's omnipresent.
And I think that's where these committees are running into,
perhaps some kind of, you know, capability that the country
has that we don't want to let everybody else know about.
But I think your term transparency is pretty It's interesting
(17:35):
because you know, I'm too old. Transparency with jfk assassination,
transparency with Malcolm's assassination. You know, all the people pro
transparency around pretty easily. It's clear to me that transparency
is hard to see through. So I'm not sure where
(17:59):
I'm going. Let me let me go back to something
that as a kid, and I don't want to labor
this point, but grew up in San Diego and we're
talking nineteen forties, fifties, and the guy that was omnipresent
(18:19):
on the television at that time was Georgia Damski coming
down from Mount Palomar Mountain. And anybody who lived in
San Diego knew how important Mount Palomar was the biggest
telescope we ever had. This guy lived in a place
up there, and he came down from the mountain all
the time talking about his last trip from Venus. He
(18:41):
was already coming back from Venus and you know, as
a kid, you just you just devour this kind of
thing because you know, meanwhile, we had Vanguard US first
satellite attempt to explode on the launchpad. We had Nick
going the space race was really really severe. I mean
(19:05):
it was a beat beat, beat moment. And here's here's
Georgia Danski coming down from I just got back from Venus.
I'm telling you it's hot there, you know, so you
believe all that. And when I'm getting to there is
a cottage industry and sell UFO UAP And I think
anybody that's trying to follow all this has got to
(19:28):
be aware that there's some hocksterism going on, because people
are setting up, you know, lots of organizations around this
phenomenon knowing that it is something that's gnawing at the
general public or at least some select group that cares
about all this. So you have to take all that
into account. I mean, it's just part of the process
(19:51):
trying to get to the bottom line of it all.
Speaker 1 (19:54):
Well, it's such a great point. Here's for those wondering
about George m to your point, sold a bunch of books.
I think that speaks to this. This this part of society
that wants truth, that wants to feel less alone almost
you know, and once there wants there to be something
(20:16):
bigger the understanding our place in the universe. But to
your point, you can't lie to the public. I mean,
and there are a ton of hucksters. Which is why
I have so much respect for you, is because you're
a real journalist who you can really follow. You know,
you've interacted as we wrap up this this episode of
talking about the UAP hearings with Congress and whatnot, you've
interacted with so many of the biggest and brightest and
(20:39):
smartest folks in this whole industry and on these issues.
Do you think put it in perspective for us just
in terms of recent US history? Do you think that
this is just the start of these type of hearings
or is this just a one off? Or will Congress
keep addressing these types of issues.
Speaker 2 (21:00):
I think it really depends on the committee members. I
mean they definitely Luna, who ran the hearing, seems to
be adamant about to get into the You mentioned Tim Burchett,
and that guy is pretty adamant. And for your listeners,
I'd say go back and listen to a journalist that
(21:22):
was on that panel. I don't know him very well.
We've had some interaction with George Knapp testified, and he's
been following this longer than most of those people up
on the hill. And the conundrum that he expressed and
trying to follow all this was palpable to me as
a as a fellow writer journalist trying to get the
truth out of where we are. And you know, if
(21:44):
he's confused, I'm certainly confused.
Speaker 1 (21:47):
Yeah. No, well said. And when you talked to astronauts
and whatnot, and I don't want you to speak out
a turn, but what is the what is there? What
can you share with their audience about their understanding and
their perception of other extraterrestrial intelligences because it also could
(22:08):
be another civilization's technology. It might not even be the
aliens themselves, which is another thing, another part of this,
which is we could just be seeing their technology and
not the actual thing, because for example, we're sending Mars
rovers and whatnot and satellites elsewhere. That's not humans. That's
a form of human technology. What is their understanding and
the consensus if you can give us one about their
(22:30):
thoughts on all of this? For folks who have actually
been they.
Speaker 2 (22:33):
Have the privilege of talking to it and interviewing a
lot of astronauts and then working with Buzz on the
Buzz Aldro on several articles and books. You know, I
think when I get out of all that, you know,
you have the overview effect of being in orbit looking
(22:56):
down at the Earth, and you have this overwhelming view
of the Earth. But there is an overwhelming look out
when you you know, you talk to Buzz looking out,
looking out Jack Harrison Smith, the Apollo seventeen astronaut from
the December of seventy two mission, you know, it's overwhelming.
(23:20):
It's an overwhelming effect, and it's humbling. You know, it's
all I ever get out. I mean, I'm not sure
I'm ever going to get into a place I can
get that same you talk to James Lovell or any
of the pioneering Apollo astronauts, we just lost the level.
(23:41):
And yeah, it just seems like ed edgar Mitchell, you know,
very interesting guy. I did have a really interesting comment
from Gordon Cooper from Mercury early Mercury program. These guys
(24:02):
were single seat flying in orbit. We didn't know what
was happened to the human body. But Gordon Cooper was
pretty adamant about his experiences with UFOs in his career,
and you know, it was riveting listening to him, and
you know, you're listening to a guy that had all
that experience about flying. You know, other people have discounted
(24:25):
what he said all I know, they most likely never
talked to him face to face. And when you listen
to that kind of conversation, you kind of walk away
and go, Wow, this guy went through some shit. I mean,
that's pretty interesting. He was pretty adamant about what he
was involved in with UFOs. It is amazing that we
(24:47):
have this human capability of putting people off planet outward,
and why not the reverse. Other civilizations have conquered this
great gulf of space, the intervening void of confusion. You know,
we've got a lot of room out there, and who
knows what people have come up with. And that is
(25:07):
one thing that bothers me that we have a one
off kind of aliens coming here. My guess is, if
it's teeming with life out there, we may be experiencing
multiple kinds of visitations to all kinds of capabilities that
have been harnessed by other intelligent civilizations.
Speaker 1 (25:27):
It's so fascinating. It's like there's a lot of different vehicles.
There's boats, there's trains, there's planes, there's cars, you know,
and to your point, all of it zooming around planet Earth.
But to your point, there could be I never thought
of that, So I just I just you just gave
me a new way of thinking, which is why I
(25:47):
love doing the show, which.
Speaker 2 (25:48):
Is we got to meet in the Star Wars bar
because I thought that was pretty telling, you know, you know,
they had a room full of aliens from all over
the place. And maybe that's what we're experiencing. Maybe some
people have conquered the great divide between our planet uh
(26:09):
and other civilization. So who knows, But that's what's so
much fun. I agree, that is space exploration. Keeping your
mind open and try not to be too cynical because
you're most likely you're going to wind up in a hole.
I try to keep my mind open, but you know,
I don't want to be gullible either.
Speaker 1 (26:29):
No, that's how that's how I feel, and and and
for me, and we'll end it here. And for me,
I just think, you know, as someone and I don't
talk about this hardly ever, but as as a person
of faith and I am a Catholic. To me, it
is really profound that we don't even think. We're not
(26:50):
even taught to think as kids about other galaxies and
universe and exoplanets. I mean, it wasn't until a couple
of years ago when I heard that our Solar system
has millions of rocks for lack of a better word,
you know that planets like Jupiter and Saturn have dozens
(27:10):
of moons. You know, I thought it was just Mercury, Venus, Earth, Mars,
the asteroid belt, Jupiter, You're in a Neptune and Pluto. No,
it's like there's the whole, you know, outside of that,
there's just there's millions of objects just floating around in
our Solar system. I mean, we are literally just a
(27:31):
speck of sand in our own Solar system. And so
it is, it really is just it. It does leave
you with that sense of wonderment and just possibility. And
I think the reason I love this, and I can't
thank you enough for your time, Leonard, truly is that
there's so much a lot of bad stuff happening on
planet Earth, and if we can just give people just
(27:52):
that dose of exploration of possibility can said the unknown,
not with fear and doomsday. Although I do love the
movie Arm Again him with Ben Affleck and Bruce Wis.
That's a great movie because my dad's a My dad
is engineer, but he worked in refineries, and I'm like that.
(28:12):
When I was a kid, I was like, that's pretty cool.
They send the drillers up to the asteroid, which is
wild by the way, mind the minimoons and will solve
the deficit. But but if we can give people hope
and optimism, the thing I love most about all this
is it gives people a new way of thinking, and
that I think we all need, especially right now. Last word,
(28:33):
my friend, Oh, we're on a roll.
Speaker 2 (28:36):
I hope we're rolling somewhere forward and uh and uh,
you know, you know, watching this interstellar object come in
that's getting closer to Earth and trying to figure out
what that is. It could be a comet, could be
you know, Alvi lobe is opening the opportunity to think
(28:58):
it's something uh, you know, extraterrestrial created somehow who knows.
I don't know, but that that is that really is
the core of being inquisitive, being open minded, and try
not to be too gullible. You know, I'm not a
(29:19):
physics student, and I kind of avoided physics in school.
Physics can lead you astray in some way. I'm sure
we're going to be coming up a new physics in
the future to get into this.
Speaker 1 (29:31):
Like what were you like as a how did you
choose this as a profession.
Speaker 2 (29:38):
Well, that's a good question. I try to remember. You know,
early on, I really want my parents in Waco, Texas.
I lived in Waco, Texas. You know, the first Spotnik
one flew over our home. It was the first satellite
by the former Soviet Union. And seeing a human made
(29:59):
machine in orbit, and you know, you're a kid that
glued to me. Now, I don't know if I saw
Putnik one, the actual satellite I think was too small,
but certainly the booster that put it up the last
stage and I saw that, and uh, you know that
was a big moment for me. And uh uh you
(30:21):
know that. And I broke the glasses and made a
telescope out of them, and you know, uh kept looking
up and that's how it all began. And I actually
had I actually sold a newspaper. I wrote a handwritten
newspaper in my neighborhood for a nickel. I went around
to the neighborhood and uh and sold it for a nickel.
(30:45):
Talked about space, It talked about foot nick it talked
about some new National geographic getting back to them. They
had an issue way back of a V two run
because they had a camera at it went up to
the you know, way out there and then come crashing back.
(31:08):
But the photographs it was one of those you know
when you open up a thing and the pages come
out and get a panoramic thing and that structure. O, my god,
we're up there pretty high. That was that. Those are
the formative things about linking interest in space and rocketry
(31:28):
and astronautics.
Speaker 1 (31:30):
For me, that's just amazing. I can't thank you enough
for all that you've done, No, really, so truly thank
you so much for this conversation on being a guest
on this because honestly, people like you give Hello future
so much credibility. So I can't thank you enough. And
where are you based.
Speaker 2 (31:49):
I'm up here at nine thousand feet between Boulder, Colorado
and Golden Colorado. We'reasbout as high as you can get
to get closer to the stars and playing much I
love that.
Speaker 1 (32:01):
Well, when I'm next time i'm at in Colorado, I
will buy you coffee, my friend, and I can't thank you. Yeah,
I appreciate you. Thank you, thank you, thank you. Having
great tomorrow today all.
Speaker 2 (32:12):
Right, keep looking up.
Speaker 1 (32:14):
Thanks
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