December 2, 2025 • 39 mins
Tommy James started making music when he was 4 years old and he hasn’t stopped. Tommy is a musician, singer, songwriter, record producer, and the frontman of rock band Tommy James and the Shondells. Known for timeless classics such as “Crimson and Clover”, “Crystal Blue Persuasion”, “Hanky Panky”, “Sweet Cherry Wine”, and “Draggin’ the Line” Tommy James has amassed 23 Gold singles, 9 Platinum albums, and over 100 million records sold worldwide. He was honored with a BMI Five Million-Air Award for over 21 million radio plays and his music has appeared in over 200 TV shows and films, and in countless commercials. To date, over 300 musicians have recorded covers of James' music, including: Billy Idol, Joan Jett, Prince, R.E.M., Kelly Clarkson, Bruce Springsteen, and even The Boston Pops.
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Speaker 1 (00:02):
This is Alec Baldwin and you're listening to Here's the
Thing from iHeart.
Speaker 2 (00:06):
Radio by Daffa Bone.
Speaker 1 (00:14):
That is, of course, Money Money, the nineteen sixty eighth
single by my guest today, Tommy James and his band
The Chandelle's known for timeless classics like Crimson and Clover,
(00:36):
Hanky Panky, and Crystal Blue Persuasion. Tommy James has amassed
twenty three gold singles, nine platinum albums, and over one
hundred million records sold worldwide. His music has also appeared
in over two hundred TV shows and films, as well
as countless commercials. Legendary musicians such as Billy Idol, Joan
(00:58):
Jet and Prince recorded famous covers of his music. Having
started out during a more primitive time for music and technology,
I was curious about the changes Tommy James has seen
in both the way we consume music and record it.
Speaker 3 (01:16):
Well, first of all, I'm so fortunate and blessed to
be able to see the music business in a historical
perspective because I lived, there's so much of it. Yeah,
I mean, we would have killed for the technology we
have today. It's quite remarkable. Of course, when I started
out there were essentially three television networks. There were a
(01:38):
handful of fifty thousand wat AM stations across the country,
but you could cover the whole country and everybody was
listening to the same records, which was incredible. So everything
was so different. My first record, for example, Hanky Panky
was recorded in a radio studio in my hometown of Nihles,
(01:59):
miss on a mono tape record. You know, what you
saw was what you got. So what I'm saying is
that mono was all you had back then. And then
finally during the early nineteen sixties, four track came into
the studios, our horizons were a little bit higher. And
then when I came to New York, a four track
(02:22):
was the state of the art nineteen sixty six. Right
out of high school.
Speaker 1 (02:27):
By the way, when you had that hit, when you
had Hanky Pecky, you were nineteen years old.
Speaker 3 (02:32):
I was. And I also had recorded Hanky Panky, the
same recording when I was sixteen back in Niles, Michigan,
my hometown, recorded it in WNIL radio studios. At any rate,
it was the same record, and so I was. It
exploded out of Pittsburgh, I came to New York, and
(02:54):
by sixty six we're working with four track.
Speaker 1 (02:58):
What was it like for you with that? Because your path,
your arc mimics other people we've had on the show.
I mean, Paul Simon talked about him and Garfucker werehen
Tom and Jerry. They were teenagers when that song their
first hit was on the radio. Same with Frampton. Frampton
talked about getting into a limousine with Ronnie Wood and
they wanted him to come play with the Stones, and
he was like fifteen years old or something. Yeah.
Speaker 3 (03:20):
Well, all I ever wanted to be was a rock
and roller. Honestly. I'm so fortunate that I made it
in rock and roll, honestly, because it's not like I
knew how to do anything else. I started my first
band when I was twelve years old in nineteen fifty nine.
We played the variety show in high school or in
(03:42):
junior high, seventh grade, and kept the band together and
started playing out locally. My first money gig was the
American Legion Hall in Niles, Michigan, for I think it
was thirty one bucks. That was big time bag. It's
better mowing lawns. Right then, when I was fourteen years old,
I got a job in a little record shop in Niles,
(04:04):
and that really changed my life because I learned the
record business. I learned it was almost like the Good
Lord had me going to college through the record shop.
So then I made my first record when I was fourteen.
The one stop distributor that serviced us in the record
shop had a recording studio in Hastings, Michigan, and asked
(04:28):
me if I would, if I had my band together,
if i'd be interested in coming recording in his studio.
I said hell yes, so went up and recorded. My
group was called the Tornadoes at that time, and we
recorded a couple of sides. They came out a record
called Long Ponytail, which was a cover of the Fireballs record,
(04:51):
and we did Okay. We got in all the local
jukeboxes and we played around and developed a following. Anyway,
that's the group that later became came the Chondals.
Speaker 1 (05:01):
Same personnel, yes, basically.
Speaker 3 (05:04):
Then when I was sixteen, local DJ walked into the
record shop and asked if I wanted to record for
his labor. He was starting a little label called Snap,
and I said yes, And that's where we recorded Hanky
Panky and so the record. You know, we had no distribution,
so the record kind of came and went, and I
(05:26):
graduated from high school in sixty five and took my
band on the road and we played clubs in the Midwest.
Speaker 1 (05:34):
Were your parents musical?
Speaker 3 (05:36):
My mother was yes. So in early sixty six, I'm
playing this dumpy little club in Janesville, Wisconsin, and right
in the middle of my two weeks, the guy goes
belly up because the irs shut him down for not
paying his taxes. So we were sent home, let go
and sent home and feeling like real losers. But as
(05:57):
soon as I got home, I got the call that
changed my life. Seems that in Pittsburgh, Hanky Panky, this
record that I had made two and a half years earlier,
somebody picked out of a record cemetery and they got
played on the radio and it exploded in Pittsburgh. They
(06:18):
bootlegged it in Pittsburgh and sold eighty thousand copies in
ten days, and we were sitting at number one only
in America. So they called me up. The distributor called
me up and asked if I could come to Pittsburgh
and do They tracked me down to see if I
would come and play some shows. I had to put
(06:38):
a band together real quick, basically went to Pittsburgh, got
my first manager, picked up a new group, and indeed
the record was number one outside the city limits. On
nobody I go into Pittsburgh. I'm a rock star figure and.
Speaker 1 (06:52):
It worked that way back then.
Speaker 3 (06:54):
Yes, but Pittsburgh, Yeah, that's exactly right. And you know,
one station and could make you because it was a
major market. So I went to New York and all
the record company. I made the rounds to all the
companies and everybody wanted hanky panky, and quite literally I
was amazed. We went to CBS, we went to EPIC,
(07:17):
we went to Atlantic RCA. I don't know if you
remember Camasutra Records back then.
Speaker 1 (07:23):
I do, actually yeah.
Speaker 3 (07:25):
And the last place we took the record to was Roulette.
So I went to bed that night thinking that we
were going to be with one of the big corporate
labels and probably CBS or Atlantic, and I was feeling great.
So the next morning, about ten o'clock, I started getting calls.
We started getting calls from all the companies that had
(07:47):
said yes the day before, and every one of them said, Tom,
I'm sorry, we got to pass. What do you mean
you got to pass. I thought we had a deal,
and finally Jerry Wexler up at Atlantic told me the
truth that Mars Leaves, the head of Roulette Records, had
called up all the other labels and scared him to death,
(08:07):
basically told that under duress, and that's how he tours it.
This is my freaking record back off.
Speaker 1 (08:15):
So you have a kind of a whiff of that.
Somebody steps in at the intervene.
Speaker 3 (08:19):
It was the first offer I couldn't refuse, you know,
so at any rate, well that's how Mars talked too.
I mean, I guess they go to school.
Speaker 1 (08:27):
Did talk like they will go to the same private school? Yeah?
Speaker 3 (08:31):
Right, So at any rate, Roulette literally took the record
to number one. Now the amazing thing. I went up
that afternoon to meet Maurice Levy and Roulette Records, and
I mean he was right out of the movies. I'm
not kidding. Morris was a big guy. Physically shaking hands
(08:53):
with him was like grabbing hold of a catcher's mid. Yeah,
things were happening. I remember signing my contract with Morris
and as I'm signing, that's where we got the title
of the book. He happened to say, you know, I
hope you're ready, kid, because you're about to go in
one hell of a ride. And I said, yeah, I'm ready,
let's do it. So at any rate, the sitting in
(09:16):
the office was George Goldner, one of his partners, who
was a big producer, produced all the due ap stuff
in the fifties, had the End Records Gone Records, Murray
the Kay, the disc jockey, remember him, of course, and
Red Schwartz who was the head of promotion, and you
know the movers and shakers up at Roulette. So they
(09:38):
took the record Hanky Panky and took it to number
one all over the world. And I, you know, I
we had this amazing success on Roulette, and I'm sure
we wouldn't have had anywhere else because at Roulette they
actually needed us. At Columbia or Atlantic, the competition would
have been horrific. We would have and just one of many,
(10:01):
and with a fluky record like Hankey Pankey, we would
have been lucky to have been a one hit wonder.
And at Roulette actually needed us. So we were given
the keys to the candy store. I was allowed to
put my own staff together, my own producer, production staff, yes,
and arranger Jimmy Wisner. We were able to learn our
(10:23):
craft number one and to be, you know, in charge
of our own career.
Speaker 1 (10:29):
Now let me ask you this in terms of these
songs of yours and your vocal tracks are among the
most famous songs you know in rock and roll.
Speaker 3 (10:37):
Well, thank you, thanks, no.
Speaker 1 (10:38):
No, no, no. You are an amazingly talented guy. The
band was great. What was your origin as a singer?
When did you know you could sing?
Speaker 3 (10:44):
I started singing, it seems like right out of the cradle.
As soon as I went to kindergarten. I was being
chosen to do musical things by the teachers, and I
was in choir also in you know, seventh grade on up,
and of course I had the band, so I had
all kinds of affirmations that I could sing. I didn't
(11:08):
sing with any particular style or educated in singing or
singing lessons or anything.
Speaker 1 (11:14):
You didn't train.
Speaker 3 (11:15):
No, My whole thing was to company my singing with
my guitar. I never became a lead guitar player either,
because I pre tuned my guitar to an open E,
and so I taught myself to play guitar. But in
order to accompany my vocals, never to really be a
guitar player. So the band was going all through junior
(11:38):
high in high school, and it's something that just kind
of came at me normally. I felt like my ego
wasn't attached to it. It's what I'm trying to say,
I was. It was just something I kind of naturally did.
Speaker 1 (11:52):
Now, when did songwriting come into your life? The songs
you would record?
Speaker 2 (11:56):
Right?
Speaker 3 (11:57):
I would have to say. Once I got to New York,
I became friendly with Richie Cordell and Bo Gentry, who
became my producers. They were great songwriters. It seemed like
the natural next step. I sat with them and we
wrote rock and roll and ballads and all kinds of
music together, and so gradually I became a songwriter.
Speaker 1 (12:19):
Did you enjoy it?
Speaker 3 (12:20):
I loved it? Oh yeah.
Speaker 1 (12:22):
But apparently songwriting and the pursuit of writing songs for
you to record led to shall we say a slight
health scare? What happened to you on stage?
Speaker 3 (12:31):
Oh? In Alabama? Well, this was some time later, this
is sixty nine. I actually collapsed on stage. Why because
I'd been up for three days because I had taken
uppers right amphetamines to write songs. Yes, to write songs
and be in the studio and to perform. You know,
(12:51):
they became at one time the all purpose drug.
Speaker 2 (12:55):
You know.
Speaker 1 (12:55):
Yeah, oh, I know, yeah. I mean, I've taken my
vitamin see everything then.
Speaker 3 (13:02):
But back then that's I did my share of sixties crap.
Speaker 1 (13:06):
But you took songwriting to another level. Here your dedication correct.
Speaker 3 (13:09):
Well, I was able to stay up longer, let's put it.
Speaker 1 (13:12):
That way, in pursuit of that one missing lyric, that
one word, that one rhyme.
Speaker 3 (13:17):
Well, that's true. And I but I really loved songwriting,
and I was very fortunate to have all these talented
people around me, and then I brought it. My group
was talented too. They all were writing, and we all
ended up writing with each other and for each other.
And Bow and Richie were terribly talented and taught me
(13:38):
New York and taught me the business. They were my
first producers.
Speaker 1 (13:43):
And the guys that are in the band, are they
all still alive? Everybody in the original.
Speaker 3 (13:46):
Band, No, they're not. The drummer Pete Lucia has died
some time ago, but we all stay in touch. No
reunion tour, well, no, I have a new group of Schondells,
but it ended in nineteen seventy and I took on
a new group. So they've been with me all this time,
(14:06):
the new group.
Speaker 1 (14:06):
Can you tour, yes, oh yeah.
Speaker 3 (14:08):
Every year we're out all over North America. And I
don't like to go overseas. It's just a fetish of mine.
I did back in the eighties.
Speaker 1 (14:20):
But you don't like touring overseas. You don't like going
overseas period.
Speaker 3 (14:23):
I don't like touring overseas, you don't. Yeah, I just
have more control here in the US and North America.
So I also have the radio show that I'm doing,
so I can't get.
Speaker 1 (14:34):
Too far from you when they tell us about that
What are you doing well?
Speaker 3 (14:37):
I have a show on Serious ExM every Sunday. It's
called Getting Together with Tommy James. It's three hours from
five to eight pm.
Speaker 1 (14:47):
What are you playing Well?
Speaker 3 (14:49):
You know, when they came to me to do this,
I was, frankly a little scared, a little worried because
as much as I've been on the radio, I never
really was on that side of the microphone. Before you know,
it's filling up three hours every week, I know, I know,
and that's a lot of time. What I did was
(15:10):
I just they wanted me to play whatever I wanted.
That's a scary thing, Tom, do whatever you want music? Yes,
how mung have been doing that now this is the
eighth year. God they but they said play anything you want.
We want you to play your own music too. I said,
can I go to jail for that? I said, no,
we're satellite. They got to catch us first. So at
(15:32):
any rate, the bottom line was that I went on
and the philosophy was kind of to play. There was
so much music in the sixties that was so great
that never got played, never made it to the radio
because there was no room. There were over three thousand
records released in the continent of the United States. Every
week in the nineteen sixties, five records made the national charts.
(15:56):
And that's the kind of competition there was.
Speaker 1 (15:59):
Now to go back for. And in terms of the
origin story, when you were a kid and you grew
up in Michigan, correct, right, when you're a kid, what
are you listening to? What's what's is it all British
invasion at that point? What are you listening to?
Speaker 3 (16:10):
Well, so a lot of it. But the first generation
rock and rollers were my heroes growing up in the fifties.
You know, Buddy Holly, Elvis, of course, Jerry l Lewis,
gene Vincent, Eddie Cochran, Roy Orbison, Orbison, he came along
a little later, but the fifties guys were were my
heroes and that's all I ever wanted to be. And
(16:33):
then in the sixties, of course, the British invasion, and
I was playing all that time, so I was. I
was performing all these songs and working at the record
shops selling records. So I got a hell of an education,
well rounded, I would say. I've been going through Roulette.
Seemed like the other half of my education, learning the
(16:53):
record business. You know, I learned at retail, at the store,
but then learning the record product auction and all of
the finer points of record manufacturing and how records are
made and all that stuff all happened at Roulette, so
I was. I'm still learning things today now.
Speaker 1 (17:12):
Speaking of the Beatles, you were approached by a Beatle correct.
Speaker 3 (17:17):
Well, George Harrison was producing a group called Grapefruit back
in sixty eight and Mony Money had gone number one
in England. It was actually bigger there, and it was
here at stayed number one over there for oh weeks
and weeks, and George and his group Grapefruit started writing
(17:39):
songs for me. I couldn't believe it. They all kind
of had a mony mony flavor to them. They were
really great, and I was so honored. He brought him
over and personally delivered them to my management office. I
was out on the road, and I was blown away.
I couldn't believe how honored I had been.
Speaker 1 (18:00):
But then, what did you do? Well?
Speaker 3 (18:01):
The problem was, by the time we got them, we
were were just releasing Crimson and Clover and our whole
style had changed. I had them and I never actually
recorded them, And after he died, I was just so
diswrought that I hadn't, you know, recorded these songs. I
(18:23):
never really properly thanked him. I did through the channels,
but I never called him up. I didn't really know
how to do that. But I was very very on
and I said so on so many TV shows. I
know he heard my thanks, but I just was so
grateful that he did that. And later I had the
opportunity to meet John, and John and I were both
(18:48):
getting a BMI Award in nineteen seventy one. He was
getting it for imagine, I was getting it for Dragon
lun and we sat back to back, you know, my dinners,
and he had Yoko with him, and we had a
great conversation and you know, patted each other on the
back and said, thank you. What big fan I was
(19:10):
of John's and how I listened to him. So we
got we had a chance to really talk, and it
was a wonderful conversation. And then then I met Paul
and Ringo at the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame
in twenty fifteen, I had Jones. Jed asked me if
I would accompany her and come on and do Crimson
(19:31):
and Clover with her.
Speaker 1 (19:32):
Right she did.
Speaker 3 (19:33):
She was being inducted and one of her big hits
was Crimson and Clover. It so happened that Paul was
introducing Ringo, who was being inducted that night, and so
I got a chance to meet Paul and Ringo that night.
So I had good contact with the Fab four. My
(19:56):
manager Carol Ross, who is now my wife. She was
one of the biggest public relations directors in New York
and she represented Paul some time ago. So they were friends.
And there was going to be a big party at
jone Jets dressing room after the show, and so Paul
(20:18):
was going to had come over. We took some pictures
together and and he said, well, I had the I
had the limo there that night and we were just
going to go right from the hall to the to
the club. And he said, well, I'll just I'll just
go with you. And I said, that's great, that's wonderful.
Have Paul McCartney riding in my car. I thought that
(20:40):
was just great. And Carol comes over and says, oh, Paul,
there's no room. I said, what, honey, you walk and
we can put you on the hood.
Speaker 1 (20:51):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (20:52):
The luggage wreck and so Paul said, well there's no problem,
I'll just go behind. So he goes in an s
u V following dilemma. I was so humiliated.
Speaker 1 (21:02):
But you eventually married her.
Speaker 3 (21:04):
I did marry, I said, anybody with those kind of pellets,
I'm getting involved.
Speaker 1 (21:08):
In songwriter and producer Tommy James. If you enjoy conversations
with legendary singer songwriters, check out my episode with Paul Williams.
Speaker 4 (21:21):
Most pop songwriters writing for a film or a stage play.
When I have a hit, of course, we all want
to have a hit, but because I come from an
acting background. I want to advance the story and I
want to expose something of the inner life of the
character I'm writing for. That was the whole point with
Kerman is that he has a spiritual wife. You know,
I was never a kid that was in a gang
(21:42):
that had a treehouse. When I walked on the set
of The Muppet Show, I was with a gang that
had a treehouse.
Speaker 1 (21:50):
To hear more of my conversation with Paul Williams, go
to Here's the Thing dot Org. After the break, Tommy
James talks about the process of cloning recordings of his
own music to license for film and television. I'm Alec
Baldwin and this is Here's the Thing You play. That's
(22:35):
Tommy James and the Chandell's performing I Think We're Alone Now,
from their nineteen sixty six album of the same name.
Tommy James is known for world famous hits like Hanky Panky,
Sweet Cherry Wine, Dragon the Line, and Three Times in Love,
(22:56):
just to name a few. With so many famous chart
top I was curious if Tommy had a favorite song
he's written. It wasn't one of the hits.
Speaker 3 (23:07):
I always loved, loved one it's an album cut. It
was a song that could very easily have been a single.
It was that quality, and we just never we didn't
have the time to do it. We were just so
involved in other things time to do what I didn't
take the time to turn it into a hit. It's
(23:29):
very close the way it is, but it's more like
a demo. But I just always was in love with
that tune, and I wish we had taken the time
to really turn it into the record. It could have
been I may do it again. There's another one called
I'm Alive that Johnny Thunder recorded, Tom Jones recorded, was
(23:51):
never a single by us, but we were going to
do it. In the show. We do a new version
of I Think We're Alone now, which is a slow
acoustic terribly different. We're doing a movie of the book.
It's going to be the last song you hear is
there's going to be this new version of I Think
(24:13):
We're Alone. And we released it in twenty nineteen and
it went top twenty fours Adult Contemporary, and so it
was great to be back on the Check it.
Speaker 1 (24:21):
Out now you can know you think We're that That
covers out now.
Speaker 3 (24:23):
Yes, it's on YouTube. It's on well, you name Amazon,
you get the album, the whole album.
Speaker 1 (24:29):
Now, let me ask you this. So you're out there
now and it's all touring. Nobody's they're kind of buying music.
Maybe I spent hours hunting down albums on Apple Music
that I can buy. I want to pay the artist
the royalty. I got your music in my in my library.
I pay for it and sometimes you can't find it.
(24:49):
Sometimes you can't get it, but download what you're doing. Okay.
Speaker 3 (24:53):
Well, we've been very lucky because we have our own
label and what's it called aurra A U r A.
We're internationally distributed. We've released several newer albums on or
in the past ten years, twelve years, and the last
one was called Alive and it's where the new I
Think We're Alone Now was and we went Top twenty
(25:15):
Adult Contemporary with it also. So I'm really happy that
we can release music when we want to. Most of
them are compilations, but every now and then we'll do
a new studio album.
Speaker 1 (25:26):
Now, the men in the band you co wrote with,
they have writing credits and a lot of this music
as well. Yes, so you have a songwriting company, Yes, right,
published that man a publishing company that manages all of that,
but you're still touring.
Speaker 3 (25:40):
Yes, and Sony represents our old publishing with Morris Levy.
We were very lucky because from Morris Levy, Warners owns
Our Masters now from Roulette, and Sony owns the publishing.
Sony has delivered ninety three movies, major movies for us
since we've in with them. They've been wonderful to put
(26:02):
your music in the movie. Yes, ninety three movies, ninety
three movie and.
Speaker 1 (26:06):
The number one the choice is Crystal Blue.
Speaker 3 (26:08):
Welcome Money, all of them, you know, all the all
the big hits.
Speaker 1 (26:12):
Between Cherry Wine, I love.
Speaker 3 (26:14):
Yes, Yes, and so we're very lucky to be affiliated
with Sony and with Warners. Warner's done a good job too.
You know. The Warners is owned by a consortium of Ukrainians,
not you know, I'm trying to think of any American
owned companies anymore. Of course, Sony's the Japanese. But it's
(26:38):
it's really interesting. The big fish have eaten the smaller ones,
and there's like three companies now, you know, there's Universal,
there's Warners, the Warner Music Group and Sony Music Group.
So the industry has really. Well, it's huge and it's little,
you know what I'm saying.
Speaker 1 (26:56):
At the same business in general, yes, small town. Do
you have a approval over who gets it? Or they
do warners or some.
Speaker 3 (27:03):
Well, what will happen is that the producers of a
film will call to license certain pieces.
Speaker 1 (27:09):
Do you have approval?
Speaker 3 (27:10):
Well, they don't have to, but they honor me with
giving me that that courtesy. We also have re records.
I have done clone re records of ten of the hits,
ten of the most used hits.
Speaker 1 (27:24):
What's the purpose that? What's a clone rerecord? What is that?
Speaker 3 (27:26):
It is an exactly duplicate as close as we can
literally as close as we can possibly get it to
the original, to license a lot of them. If they
can't pay a large fee, will pay a smaller fee
for the clone, and we own that. So Sony pitches both.
Most people can't tell the difference.
Speaker 1 (27:49):
Now, when you're touring, what's different? I mean, obviously I'm older,
you're older. When you're out there, is it as much fun?
Other rock stars who I won't name, I'd go to
the concert. They say, oh no, no, no, the meal with them,
the drink with them, the party with them is before
the show. Now it's not after the show. After the show,
they go home and get in bed.
Speaker 3 (28:06):
Well, the truth is that not a hell of a
lot has changed since the Earl. It's the one live
entertainment has never been bigger number one dollars and cents
wise and every other way. And it's also not changed much. It's,
you know, still that relationship between the artist and the audience.
(28:28):
And I must say that I love our fans, and
I do mean that sincerely, because these people have put
food on my table and a roof over my head
for almost sixty years and never faltered once, and they
stick with me whatever project we're involved in. So I'm
very grateful to our fans. That's why I don't talk
(28:51):
politics at the concerts. Why would you intentionally offend half
your audience? Why would you do that?
Speaker 1 (28:58):
Well, I've learned my lesson about that too.
Speaker 3 (29:01):
Why would you upset people? It's a business that depends
totally on the goodwill it the public.
Speaker 1 (29:07):
Why would you do that?
Speaker 3 (29:08):
And I've never understood why an artist would do that
unless they just can't stand not to. I don't know.
Speaker 1 (29:16):
Musician and songwriter Tommy James, if you're enjoying this conversation,
tell a friend and be sure to follow Here's the
Thing on the iHeartRadio app, Spotify or wherever you get
your podcasts. When we come back, Tommy James talks about
what the song Crystal Blue Persuasion is really about and
(29:37):
the inspiration behind the title. I'm Alec Baldwin and this
is here's the thing.
Speaker 2 (29:46):
Are you gonna live Hard? Wayne? Take Angie Bad Day by.
Speaker 1 (29:57):
Rain And that's Tommy James and the Sean Dell's performing
dragging the line from their nineteen seventy one album Christian
of the World. Earlier, Tommy James detailed his encounter with
(30:28):
George Harrison, who had presented Tommy and his band with
songs that Harrison hoped they would record, like the Harrison Proposal.
I was curious if Tommy James had ever written music
for anyone else.
Speaker 3 (30:42):
I did, and I've produced several acts. Also, I wrote
and produced Alive and Kickens Tighter Tighter back in nineteen
seventy Johnny Lombardo for Paramount Patty Austin several acts. And
I'm a fan first and foremost.
Speaker 1 (30:59):
So that's why i do this show.
Speaker 3 (31:01):
Yeah, yeah, right, And there are so many acts that
I dearly love that I had the privilege of working
with guys like Wilson Pickett. You know, I love Wilson.
I play them all the time. Before he died, I
had a chance to work with him, and he just
blew the place apart. And he wasn't he was sick,
(31:22):
you know, and he wasn't feeling good at and so
I people like that. I got to work with the
Mamas and the Papas and the Beatles. I didn't work
with the Beatles.
Speaker 1 (31:30):
I take that back.
Speaker 3 (31:31):
I met them. So I've been so blessed and fortunate
in my life that I got to all the acts
that I was selling in the record shop too. You know,
I'm working a year later, I'm working with him.
Speaker 1 (31:46):
Mark Farner came on the show from Grandfunk Railroad. I
love Mark Farner.
Speaker 3 (31:50):
Yes, I love Grand Funk Railroad and I love their records.
Speaker 1 (31:53):
Oh yeah, I love them. I love He did this
show and what he said was he said, he's a
very fit guy, very ripped guy, very bad And he
rips his shirt off in the middle of the show
and the promoter comes back SATs it goes, oh my god, man.
That was great because because in the back of the show.
At the back of the house, they really can't see
you that closely. And when you rip that shirt up,
and that's fantastic. And the question for you with that is, like,
(32:16):
were women jumping out of the bushes on you in
your band? How did you handle that in terms.
Speaker 3 (32:20):
Of oh, we had our share of that, But I mean, basically,
you measured your success by how loud the girls screamed,
and so there were lots of access got screams louder
than us. That was part of the sixties. But gradually,
you know, hopefully you're talented enough to where your music
takes over. I mean, don't get me wrong, I was
(32:41):
very flattered and very young, healthy American. Yeah, I mean
you know, but later in life you better your music
better be saying something because the screams don't last that long.
Speaker 1 (32:52):
Well, you're one of those people that music is something.
You play it, that song comes on, you're not going
to stop til you finish the song. It's like a movie.
Speaker 3 (32:58):
Well, thank you that music.
Speaker 1 (33:00):
And it's so evoke something. What I loved about music
back then was music was music, and talent was talented.
People weren't as cautious, so there's that famous thing on
YouTube where you see Tom Jones singing with Crosby Stills
in Nash.
Speaker 3 (33:14):
Yeah, he could hold it with anybody, you know, I
mean any r and b artists, any David.
Speaker 1 (33:18):
Crosby's there, but he's kind of playing and looking at
Tom Jones like, wow, man, you really are pretty. He's
the real amazing you know what I mean. But that
way of music was music and people could just all
just get into it together because it was about It
wasn't about me. I'm over here, I'm different from you. Whatever.
No tricks, binga, thank you, no tricks. Now, let me
ask you this. You talk about the change you weren't
(33:41):
necessarily going to record certain types of music anymore, regardless
of who had written it for you and was proposing
it to you Alah Harrison and so forth. But no doubt,
I'm assuming you've seen the montage on Breaking Bat of
Crystal Blue Persuasion. Correct, Yes, you have to. So the
music in a wonderful way, because it's someone who works
in film music is critical. There's this wonderful sequence in
(34:03):
Breaking Back Crystal Blue Persuasion just so happens to work
perfectly there, mixing well the meth in the meth lab.
Speaker 3 (34:12):
You know. I try to tell one group of people that,
you know, I wrote it about the Good Lord, and
I tell another group of people who say, oh, was
that about drugs time. No, it wasn't.
Speaker 1 (34:23):
But that song is, of course one of the anthems
of getting high. It's a great headshop song.
Speaker 3 (34:29):
I don't know whether to say thank you or not.
I just well, you know, it was at the right
time in the sixties, and buzz Aldrin asked me to
come and play at the h They had a reunion
of all the people in nineteen It was the sixtieth
year of the poly Moon landing, and he asked if
(34:51):
called An asked if I would come and do Crystal
Blue because it was number one when they landed. When
they landed on they should have played that on the
I would be honored. Are you kidding?
Speaker 1 (35:03):
So?
Speaker 3 (35:03):
I mean, I'm so pleased that our music has affected
people like that. I really am.
Speaker 1 (35:08):
But like the Beatles, you you really make a sharp
turn there and it becomes music that's almost it was
that song. Like the Beatles complained for years, was that
song tough to play live?
Speaker 3 (35:18):
No, it's probably my favorite song. I don't know between
it's a toss up between Money and Crystal Blue because
of the meaning of the song and the fact that
it was such a big hit for us.
Speaker 1 (35:30):
And the meaning is what from your mouth?
Speaker 3 (35:33):
Well, all I can say is it meant being persuaded
by the truth, and that really is is true. It's
a it's a song about my faith that was blooming
at the time, and about my Christian faith. And it
was very much you know these do.
Speaker 1 (35:52):
You still live there now in that space now.
Speaker 3 (35:56):
More than ever. It was like Sweet Cherry Wine and Ball.
They were snapshots of what I was feeling at the time,
and Crystal Blue was you know, it started. You know
how it came to this a damnedest story. I was
playing at Miami. I was playing a college in Miami,
and this nerdy little kid with thick glasses comes up
(36:19):
to me after the show with a poem. He said, Tommy,
read my poem please. It was called Crystal Persuasion. And
you know, as a songwriter, you're always looking for titles.
You're always on the make for interesting word combinations, especially
back in the sixties, always looking for interesting combinations of words.
(36:43):
And so after Crystal Persuasion, that's kind of an interesting
kind of an interesting visual. I don't quite sure what
it means yet, but so we took it home. We
wrote it that night, and we just needed another one
more syllable to have the rhyming scheme work. And so
we said, and I just thought of you know so
many times, you know a crystal like a diamond has
(37:05):
a faint bluish tint to it, And I said, crystal
blue persuasion sounded poetic. This guy that wrote the poem,
he never contacted me.
Speaker 1 (37:14):
I'm going to say, he's not living in a forty
million dollar mansion in my ou.
Speaker 3 (37:18):
No he's not.
Speaker 1 (37:19):
I thought, maybe you you know, had got Yeah, okay,
he just.
Speaker 3 (37:21):
Discis fishing on a pontoon boat that I know so
at any rate, And I tried to look this kid down.
But now now the words were not we changed.
Speaker 1 (37:31):
Of course, it's not his pod.
Speaker 3 (37:34):
We just used the title. But I always wanted to
thank him and never got the chance. So I don't know.
We may bump into him sometimes. But this was sixty
eight and the record we went, and it was so frustrating.
It was probably the hardest record I ever produced. We
went in the studio and completely overproduced the record.
Speaker 1 (37:52):
Yeah, what do you mean by that?
Speaker 3 (37:54):
We just put too much crap in it. And you know,
we had a full set of drums, we had two
or three guitar we had, you know, just too much stuff.
Speaker 1 (38:02):
Who plays that opening lick on the guitars?
Speaker 3 (38:04):
That was Eddie Gray? Our guitar played Eddie Gray.
Speaker 1 (38:07):
That's great. I love that. It's almost like Santana.
Speaker 3 (38:09):
It wasn't that great? And the night we wrote the song,
he came up with that. As a matter of fact,
he came up with the chords. I said, what's that?
And he says it's something I'm pulling around. I say,
it's great.
Speaker 1 (38:22):
Do it again, my god, great openings. Yes, I've admired
you for so long. I've listened to your music forever,
and I'm so glad to meet you.
Speaker 3 (38:30):
Well, thank you, God, bless you, my friend. What do you.
Speaker 1 (38:38):
See my thanks to Tommy James. I'll leave you with
Crystal Blue Persuasion off the nineteen sixty eight album Crimson
and Clover. I'm Alec Baldwin. Here's the thing, is brought
to you by iHeart Radio.
Speaker 2 (38:58):
Change, Ain't it? Beauty?
Speaker 3 (39:04):
Bath?
Speaker 5 (39:06):
Still to Dissuasion, Better Get Bad?
Speaker 2 (39:21):
Go to see he's a last who love Busy answered,
that's all, So don't you give up
This is Alec Baldwin and you're listening to Here's the
Thing from iHeart.
Speaker 2 (00:06):
Radio by Daffa Bone.
Speaker 1 (00:14):
That is, of course, Money Money, the nineteen sixty eighth
single by my guest today, Tommy James and his band
The Chandelle's known for timeless classics like Crimson and Clover,
(00:36):
Hanky Panky, and Crystal Blue Persuasion. Tommy James has amassed
twenty three gold singles, nine platinum albums, and over one
hundred million records sold worldwide. His music has also appeared
in over two hundred TV shows and films, as well
as countless commercials. Legendary musicians such as Billy Idol, Joan
(00:58):
Jet and Prince recorded famous covers of his music. Having
started out during a more primitive time for music and technology,
I was curious about the changes Tommy James has seen
in both the way we consume music and record it.
Speaker 3 (01:16):
Well, first of all, I'm so fortunate and blessed to
be able to see the music business in a historical
perspective because I lived, there's so much of it. Yeah,
I mean, we would have killed for the technology we
have today. It's quite remarkable. Of course, when I started
out there were essentially three television networks. There were a
(01:38):
handful of fifty thousand wat AM stations across the country,
but you could cover the whole country and everybody was
listening to the same records, which was incredible. So everything
was so different. My first record, for example, Hanky Panky
was recorded in a radio studio in my hometown of Nihles,
(01:59):
miss on a mono tape record. You know, what you
saw was what you got. So what I'm saying is
that mono was all you had back then. And then
finally during the early nineteen sixties, four track came into
the studios, our horizons were a little bit higher. And
then when I came to New York, a four track
(02:22):
was the state of the art nineteen sixty six. Right
out of high school.
Speaker 1 (02:27):
By the way, when you had that hit, when you
had Hanky Pecky, you were nineteen years old.
Speaker 3 (02:32):
I was. And I also had recorded Hanky Panky, the
same recording when I was sixteen back in Niles, Michigan,
my hometown, recorded it in WNIL radio studios. At any rate,
it was the same record, and so I was. It
exploded out of Pittsburgh, I came to New York, and
(02:54):
by sixty six we're working with four track.
Speaker 1 (02:58):
What was it like for you with that? Because your path,
your arc mimics other people we've had on the show.
I mean, Paul Simon talked about him and Garfucker werehen
Tom and Jerry. They were teenagers when that song their
first hit was on the radio. Same with Frampton. Frampton
talked about getting into a limousine with Ronnie Wood and
they wanted him to come play with the Stones, and
he was like fifteen years old or something. Yeah.
Speaker 3 (03:20):
Well, all I ever wanted to be was a rock
and roller. Honestly. I'm so fortunate that I made it
in rock and roll, honestly, because it's not like I
knew how to do anything else. I started my first
band when I was twelve years old in nineteen fifty nine.
We played the variety show in high school or in
(03:42):
junior high, seventh grade, and kept the band together and
started playing out locally. My first money gig was the
American Legion Hall in Niles, Michigan, for I think it
was thirty one bucks. That was big time bag. It's
better mowing lawns. Right then, when I was fourteen years old,
I got a job in a little record shop in Niles,
(04:04):
and that really changed my life because I learned the
record business. I learned it was almost like the Good
Lord had me going to college through the record shop.
So then I made my first record when I was fourteen.
The one stop distributor that serviced us in the record
shop had a recording studio in Hastings, Michigan, and asked
(04:28):
me if I would, if I had my band together,
if i'd be interested in coming recording in his studio.
I said hell yes, so went up and recorded. My
group was called the Tornadoes at that time, and we
recorded a couple of sides. They came out a record
called Long Ponytail, which was a cover of the Fireballs record,
(04:51):
and we did Okay. We got in all the local
jukeboxes and we played around and developed a following. Anyway,
that's the group that later became came the Chondals.
Speaker 1 (05:01):
Same personnel, yes, basically.
Speaker 3 (05:04):
Then when I was sixteen, local DJ walked into the
record shop and asked if I wanted to record for
his labor. He was starting a little label called Snap,
and I said yes, And that's where we recorded Hanky
Panky and so the record. You know, we had no distribution,
so the record kind of came and went, and I
(05:26):
graduated from high school in sixty five and took my
band on the road and we played clubs in the Midwest.
Speaker 1 (05:34):
Were your parents musical?
Speaker 3 (05:36):
My mother was yes. So in early sixty six, I'm
playing this dumpy little club in Janesville, Wisconsin, and right
in the middle of my two weeks, the guy goes
belly up because the irs shut him down for not
paying his taxes. So we were sent home, let go
and sent home and feeling like real losers. But as
(05:57):
soon as I got home, I got the call that
changed my life. Seems that in Pittsburgh, Hanky Panky, this
record that I had made two and a half years earlier,
somebody picked out of a record cemetery and they got
played on the radio and it exploded in Pittsburgh. They
(06:18):
bootlegged it in Pittsburgh and sold eighty thousand copies in
ten days, and we were sitting at number one only
in America. So they called me up. The distributor called
me up and asked if I could come to Pittsburgh
and do They tracked me down to see if I
would come and play some shows. I had to put
(06:38):
a band together real quick, basically went to Pittsburgh, got
my first manager, picked up a new group, and indeed
the record was number one outside the city limits. On
nobody I go into Pittsburgh. I'm a rock star figure and.
Speaker 1 (06:52):
It worked that way back then.
Speaker 3 (06:54):
Yes, but Pittsburgh, Yeah, that's exactly right. And you know,
one station and could make you because it was a
major market. So I went to New York and all
the record company. I made the rounds to all the
companies and everybody wanted hanky panky, and quite literally I
was amazed. We went to CBS, we went to EPIC,
(07:17):
we went to Atlantic RCA. I don't know if you
remember Camasutra Records back then.
Speaker 1 (07:23):
I do, actually yeah.
Speaker 3 (07:25):
And the last place we took the record to was Roulette.
So I went to bed that night thinking that we
were going to be with one of the big corporate
labels and probably CBS or Atlantic, and I was feeling great.
So the next morning, about ten o'clock, I started getting calls.
We started getting calls from all the companies that had
(07:47):
said yes the day before, and every one of them said, Tom,
I'm sorry, we got to pass. What do you mean
you got to pass. I thought we had a deal,
and finally Jerry Wexler up at Atlantic told me the
truth that Mars Leaves, the head of Roulette Records, had
called up all the other labels and scared him to death,
(08:07):
basically told that under duress, and that's how he tours it.
This is my freaking record back off.
Speaker 1 (08:15):
So you have a kind of a whiff of that.
Somebody steps in at the intervene.
Speaker 3 (08:19):
It was the first offer I couldn't refuse, you know,
so at any rate, well that's how Mars talked too.
I mean, I guess they go to school.
Speaker 1 (08:27):
Did talk like they will go to the same private school? Yeah?
Speaker 3 (08:31):
Right, So at any rate, Roulette literally took the record
to number one. Now the amazing thing. I went up
that afternoon to meet Maurice Levy and Roulette Records, and
I mean he was right out of the movies. I'm
not kidding. Morris was a big guy. Physically shaking hands
(08:53):
with him was like grabbing hold of a catcher's mid. Yeah,
things were happening. I remember signing my contract with Morris
and as I'm signing, that's where we got the title
of the book. He happened to say, you know, I
hope you're ready, kid, because you're about to go in
one hell of a ride. And I said, yeah, I'm ready,
let's do it. So at any rate, the sitting in
(09:16):
the office was George Goldner, one of his partners, who
was a big producer, produced all the due ap stuff
in the fifties, had the End Records Gone Records, Murray
the Kay, the disc jockey, remember him, of course, and
Red Schwartz who was the head of promotion, and you
know the movers and shakers up at Roulette. So they
(09:38):
took the record Hanky Panky and took it to number
one all over the world. And I, you know, I
we had this amazing success on Roulette, and I'm sure
we wouldn't have had anywhere else because at Roulette they
actually needed us. At Columbia or Atlantic, the competition would
have been horrific. We would have and just one of many,
(10:01):
and with a fluky record like Hankey Pankey, we would
have been lucky to have been a one hit wonder.
And at Roulette actually needed us. So we were given
the keys to the candy store. I was allowed to
put my own staff together, my own producer, production staff, yes,
and arranger Jimmy Wisner. We were able to learn our
(10:23):
craft number one and to be, you know, in charge
of our own career.
Speaker 1 (10:29):
Now let me ask you this in terms of these
songs of yours and your vocal tracks are among the
most famous songs you know in rock and roll.
Speaker 3 (10:37):
Well, thank you, thanks, no.
Speaker 1 (10:38):
No, no, no. You are an amazingly talented guy. The
band was great. What was your origin as a singer?
When did you know you could sing?
Speaker 3 (10:44):
I started singing, it seems like right out of the cradle.
As soon as I went to kindergarten. I was being
chosen to do musical things by the teachers, and I
was in choir also in you know, seventh grade on up,
and of course I had the band, so I had
all kinds of affirmations that I could sing. I didn't
(11:08):
sing with any particular style or educated in singing or
singing lessons or anything.
Speaker 1 (11:14):
You didn't train.
Speaker 3 (11:15):
No, My whole thing was to company my singing with
my guitar. I never became a lead guitar player either,
because I pre tuned my guitar to an open E,
and so I taught myself to play guitar. But in
order to accompany my vocals, never to really be a
guitar player. So the band was going all through junior
(11:38):
high in high school, and it's something that just kind
of came at me normally. I felt like my ego
wasn't attached to it. It's what I'm trying to say,
I was. It was just something I kind of naturally did.
Speaker 1 (11:52):
Now, when did songwriting come into your life? The songs
you would record?
Speaker 2 (11:56):
Right?
Speaker 3 (11:57):
I would have to say. Once I got to New York,
I became friendly with Richie Cordell and Bo Gentry, who
became my producers. They were great songwriters. It seemed like
the natural next step. I sat with them and we
wrote rock and roll and ballads and all kinds of
music together, and so gradually I became a songwriter.
Speaker 1 (12:19):
Did you enjoy it?
Speaker 3 (12:20):
I loved it? Oh yeah.
Speaker 1 (12:22):
But apparently songwriting and the pursuit of writing songs for
you to record led to shall we say a slight
health scare? What happened to you on stage?
Speaker 3 (12:31):
Oh? In Alabama? Well, this was some time later, this
is sixty nine. I actually collapsed on stage. Why because
I'd been up for three days because I had taken
uppers right amphetamines to write songs. Yes, to write songs
and be in the studio and to perform. You know,
(12:51):
they became at one time the all purpose drug.
Speaker 2 (12:55):
You know.
Speaker 1 (12:55):
Yeah, oh, I know, yeah. I mean, I've taken my
vitamin see everything then.
Speaker 3 (13:02):
But back then that's I did my share of sixties crap.
Speaker 1 (13:06):
But you took songwriting to another level. Here your dedication correct.
Speaker 3 (13:09):
Well, I was able to stay up longer, let's put it.
Speaker 1 (13:12):
That way, in pursuit of that one missing lyric, that
one word, that one rhyme.
Speaker 3 (13:17):
Well, that's true. And I but I really loved songwriting,
and I was very fortunate to have all these talented
people around me, and then I brought it. My group
was talented too. They all were writing, and we all
ended up writing with each other and for each other.
And Bow and Richie were terribly talented and taught me
(13:38):
New York and taught me the business. They were my
first producers.
Speaker 1 (13:43):
And the guys that are in the band, are they
all still alive? Everybody in the original.
Speaker 3 (13:46):
Band, No, they're not. The drummer Pete Lucia has died
some time ago, but we all stay in touch. No
reunion tour, well, no, I have a new group of Schondells,
but it ended in nineteen seventy and I took on
a new group. So they've been with me all this time,
(14:06):
the new group.
Speaker 1 (14:06):
Can you tour, yes, oh yeah.
Speaker 3 (14:08):
Every year we're out all over North America. And I
don't like to go overseas. It's just a fetish of mine.
I did back in the eighties.
Speaker 1 (14:20):
But you don't like touring overseas. You don't like going
overseas period.
Speaker 3 (14:23):
I don't like touring overseas, you don't. Yeah, I just
have more control here in the US and North America.
So I also have the radio show that I'm doing,
so I can't get.
Speaker 1 (14:34):
Too far from you when they tell us about that
What are you doing well?
Speaker 3 (14:37):
I have a show on Serious ExM every Sunday. It's
called Getting Together with Tommy James. It's three hours from
five to eight pm.
Speaker 1 (14:47):
What are you playing Well?
Speaker 3 (14:49):
You know, when they came to me to do this,
I was, frankly a little scared, a little worried because
as much as I've been on the radio, I never
really was on that side of the microphone. Before you know,
it's filling up three hours every week, I know, I know,
and that's a lot of time. What I did was
(15:10):
I just they wanted me to play whatever I wanted.
That's a scary thing, Tom, do whatever you want music? Yes,
how mung have been doing that now this is the
eighth year. God they but they said play anything you want.
We want you to play your own music too. I said,
can I go to jail for that? I said, no,
we're satellite. They got to catch us first. So at
(15:32):
any rate, the bottom line was that I went on
and the philosophy was kind of to play. There was
so much music in the sixties that was so great
that never got played, never made it to the radio
because there was no room. There were over three thousand
records released in the continent of the United States. Every
week in the nineteen sixties, five records made the national charts.
(15:56):
And that's the kind of competition there was.
Speaker 1 (15:59):
Now to go back for. And in terms of the
origin story, when you were a kid and you grew
up in Michigan, correct, right, when you're a kid, what
are you listening to? What's what's is it all British
invasion at that point? What are you listening to?
Speaker 3 (16:10):
Well, so a lot of it. But the first generation
rock and rollers were my heroes growing up in the fifties.
You know, Buddy Holly, Elvis, of course, Jerry l Lewis,
gene Vincent, Eddie Cochran, Roy Orbison, Orbison, he came along
a little later, but the fifties guys were were my
heroes and that's all I ever wanted to be. And
(16:33):
then in the sixties, of course, the British invasion, and
I was playing all that time, so I was. I
was performing all these songs and working at the record
shops selling records. So I got a hell of an education,
well rounded, I would say. I've been going through Roulette.
Seemed like the other half of my education, learning the
(16:53):
record business. You know, I learned at retail, at the store,
but then learning the record product auction and all of
the finer points of record manufacturing and how records are
made and all that stuff all happened at Roulette, so
I was. I'm still learning things today now.
Speaker 1 (17:12):
Speaking of the Beatles, you were approached by a Beatle correct.
Speaker 3 (17:17):
Well, George Harrison was producing a group called Grapefruit back
in sixty eight and Mony Money had gone number one
in England. It was actually bigger there, and it was
here at stayed number one over there for oh weeks
and weeks, and George and his group Grapefruit started writing
(17:39):
songs for me. I couldn't believe it. They all kind
of had a mony mony flavor to them. They were
really great, and I was so honored. He brought him
over and personally delivered them to my management office. I
was out on the road, and I was blown away.
I couldn't believe how honored I had been.
Speaker 1 (18:00):
But then, what did you do? Well?
Speaker 3 (18:01):
The problem was, by the time we got them, we
were were just releasing Crimson and Clover and our whole
style had changed. I had them and I never actually
recorded them, And after he died, I was just so
diswrought that I hadn't, you know, recorded these songs. I
(18:23):
never really properly thanked him. I did through the channels,
but I never called him up. I didn't really know
how to do that. But I was very very on
and I said so on so many TV shows. I
know he heard my thanks, but I just was so
grateful that he did that. And later I had the
opportunity to meet John, and John and I were both
(18:48):
getting a BMI Award in nineteen seventy one. He was
getting it for imagine, I was getting it for Dragon
lun and we sat back to back, you know, my dinners,
and he had Yoko with him, and we had a
great conversation and you know, patted each other on the
back and said, thank you. What big fan I was
(19:10):
of John's and how I listened to him. So we
got we had a chance to really talk, and it
was a wonderful conversation. And then then I met Paul
and Ringo at the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame
in twenty fifteen, I had Jones. Jed asked me if
I would accompany her and come on and do Crimson
(19:31):
and Clover with her.
Speaker 1 (19:32):
Right she did.
Speaker 3 (19:33):
She was being inducted and one of her big hits
was Crimson and Clover. It so happened that Paul was
introducing Ringo, who was being inducted that night, and so
I got a chance to meet Paul and Ringo that night.
So I had good contact with the Fab four. My
(19:56):
manager Carol Ross, who is now my wife. She was
one of the biggest public relations directors in New York
and she represented Paul some time ago. So they were friends.
And there was going to be a big party at
jone Jets dressing room after the show, and so Paul
(20:18):
was going to had come over. We took some pictures
together and and he said, well, I had the I
had the limo there that night and we were just
going to go right from the hall to the to
the club. And he said, well, I'll just I'll just
go with you. And I said, that's great, that's wonderful.
Have Paul McCartney riding in my car. I thought that
(20:40):
was just great. And Carol comes over and says, oh, Paul,
there's no room. I said, what, honey, you walk and
we can put you on the hood.
Speaker 1 (20:51):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (20:52):
The luggage wreck and so Paul said, well there's no problem,
I'll just go behind. So he goes in an s
u V following dilemma. I was so humiliated.
Speaker 1 (21:02):
But you eventually married her.
Speaker 3 (21:04):
I did marry, I said, anybody with those kind of pellets,
I'm getting involved.
Speaker 1 (21:08):
In songwriter and producer Tommy James. If you enjoy conversations
with legendary singer songwriters, check out my episode with Paul Williams.
Speaker 4 (21:21):
Most pop songwriters writing for a film or a stage play.
When I have a hit, of course, we all want
to have a hit, but because I come from an
acting background. I want to advance the story and I
want to expose something of the inner life of the
character I'm writing for. That was the whole point with
Kerman is that he has a spiritual wife. You know,
I was never a kid that was in a gang
(21:42):
that had a treehouse. When I walked on the set
of The Muppet Show, I was with a gang that
had a treehouse.
Speaker 1 (21:50):
To hear more of my conversation with Paul Williams, go
to Here's the Thing dot Org. After the break, Tommy
James talks about the process of cloning recordings of his
own music to license for film and television. I'm Alec
Baldwin and this is Here's the Thing You play. That's
(22:35):
Tommy James and the Chandell's performing I Think We're Alone Now,
from their nineteen sixty six album of the same name.
Tommy James is known for world famous hits like Hanky Panky,
Sweet Cherry Wine, Dragon the Line, and Three Times in Love,
(22:56):
just to name a few. With so many famous chart
top I was curious if Tommy had a favorite song
he's written. It wasn't one of the hits.
Speaker 3 (23:07):
I always loved, loved one it's an album cut. It
was a song that could very easily have been a single.
It was that quality, and we just never we didn't
have the time to do it. We were just so
involved in other things time to do what I didn't
take the time to turn it into a hit. It's
(23:29):
very close the way it is, but it's more like
a demo. But I just always was in love with
that tune, and I wish we had taken the time
to really turn it into the record. It could have
been I may do it again. There's another one called
I'm Alive that Johnny Thunder recorded, Tom Jones recorded, was
(23:51):
never a single by us, but we were going to
do it. In the show. We do a new version
of I Think We're Alone now, which is a slow
acoustic terribly different. We're doing a movie of the book.
It's going to be the last song you hear is
there's going to be this new version of I Think
(24:13):
We're Alone. And we released it in twenty nineteen and
it went top twenty fours Adult Contemporary, and so it
was great to be back on the Check it.
Speaker 1 (24:21):
Out now you can know you think We're that That
covers out now.
Speaker 3 (24:23):
Yes, it's on YouTube. It's on well, you name Amazon,
you get the album, the whole album.
Speaker 1 (24:29):
Now, let me ask you this. So you're out there
now and it's all touring. Nobody's they're kind of buying music.
Maybe I spent hours hunting down albums on Apple Music
that I can buy. I want to pay the artist
the royalty. I got your music in my in my library.
I pay for it and sometimes you can't find it.
(24:49):
Sometimes you can't get it, but download what you're doing. Okay.
Speaker 3 (24:53):
Well, we've been very lucky because we have our own
label and what's it called aurra A U r A.
We're internationally distributed. We've released several newer albums on or
in the past ten years, twelve years, and the last
one was called Alive and it's where the new I
Think We're Alone Now was and we went Top twenty
(25:15):
Adult Contemporary with it also. So I'm really happy that
we can release music when we want to. Most of
them are compilations, but every now and then we'll do
a new studio album.
Speaker 1 (25:26):
Now, the men in the band you co wrote with,
they have writing credits and a lot of this music
as well. Yes, so you have a songwriting company, Yes, right,
published that man a publishing company that manages all of that,
but you're still touring.
Speaker 3 (25:40):
Yes, and Sony represents our old publishing with Morris Levy.
We were very lucky because from Morris Levy, Warners owns
Our Masters now from Roulette, and Sony owns the publishing.
Sony has delivered ninety three movies, major movies for us
since we've in with them. They've been wonderful to put
(26:02):
your music in the movie. Yes, ninety three movies, ninety
three movie and.
Speaker 1 (26:06):
The number one the choice is Crystal Blue.
Speaker 3 (26:08):
Welcome Money, all of them, you know, all the all
the big hits.
Speaker 1 (26:12):
Between Cherry Wine, I love.
Speaker 3 (26:14):
Yes, Yes, and so we're very lucky to be affiliated
with Sony and with Warners. Warner's done a good job too.
You know. The Warners is owned by a consortium of Ukrainians,
not you know, I'm trying to think of any American
owned companies anymore. Of course, Sony's the Japanese. But it's
(26:38):
it's really interesting. The big fish have eaten the smaller ones,
and there's like three companies now, you know, there's Universal,
there's Warners, the Warner Music Group and Sony Music Group.
So the industry has really. Well, it's huge and it's little,
you know what I'm saying.
Speaker 1 (26:56):
At the same business in general, yes, small town. Do
you have a approval over who gets it? Or they
do warners or some.
Speaker 3 (27:03):
Well, what will happen is that the producers of a
film will call to license certain pieces.
Speaker 1 (27:09):
Do you have approval?
Speaker 3 (27:10):
Well, they don't have to, but they honor me with
giving me that that courtesy. We also have re records.
I have done clone re records of ten of the hits,
ten of the most used hits.
Speaker 1 (27:24):
What's the purpose that? What's a clone rerecord? What is that?
Speaker 3 (27:26):
It is an exactly duplicate as close as we can
literally as close as we can possibly get it to
the original, to license a lot of them. If they
can't pay a large fee, will pay a smaller fee
for the clone, and we own that. So Sony pitches both.
Most people can't tell the difference.
Speaker 1 (27:49):
Now, when you're touring, what's different? I mean, obviously I'm older,
you're older. When you're out there, is it as much fun?
Other rock stars who I won't name, I'd go to
the concert. They say, oh no, no, no, the meal with them,
the drink with them, the party with them is before
the show. Now it's not after the show. After the show,
they go home and get in bed.
Speaker 3 (28:06):
Well, the truth is that not a hell of a
lot has changed since the Earl. It's the one live
entertainment has never been bigger number one dollars and cents
wise and every other way. And it's also not changed much. It's,
you know, still that relationship between the artist and the audience.
(28:28):
And I must say that I love our fans, and
I do mean that sincerely, because these people have put
food on my table and a roof over my head
for almost sixty years and never faltered once, and they
stick with me whatever project we're involved in. So I'm
very grateful to our fans. That's why I don't talk
(28:51):
politics at the concerts. Why would you intentionally offend half
your audience? Why would you do that?
Speaker 1 (28:58):
Well, I've learned my lesson about that too.
Speaker 3 (29:01):
Why would you upset people? It's a business that depends
totally on the goodwill it the public.
Speaker 1 (29:07):
Why would you do that?
Speaker 3 (29:08):
And I've never understood why an artist would do that
unless they just can't stand not to. I don't know.
Speaker 1 (29:16):
Musician and songwriter Tommy James, if you're enjoying this conversation,
tell a friend and be sure to follow Here's the
Thing on the iHeartRadio app, Spotify or wherever you get
your podcasts. When we come back, Tommy James talks about
what the song Crystal Blue Persuasion is really about and
(29:37):
the inspiration behind the title. I'm Alec Baldwin and this
is here's the thing.
Speaker 2 (29:46):
Are you gonna live Hard? Wayne? Take Angie Bad Day by.
Speaker 1 (29:57):
Rain And that's Tommy James and the Sean Dell's performing
dragging the line from their nineteen seventy one album Christian
of the World. Earlier, Tommy James detailed his encounter with
(30:28):
George Harrison, who had presented Tommy and his band with
songs that Harrison hoped they would record, like the Harrison Proposal.
I was curious if Tommy James had ever written music
for anyone else.
Speaker 3 (30:42):
I did, and I've produced several acts. Also, I wrote
and produced Alive and Kickens Tighter Tighter back in nineteen
seventy Johnny Lombardo for Paramount Patty Austin several acts. And
I'm a fan first and foremost.
Speaker 1 (30:59):
So that's why i do this show.
Speaker 3 (31:01):
Yeah, yeah, right, And there are so many acts that
I dearly love that I had the privilege of working
with guys like Wilson Pickett. You know, I love Wilson.
I play them all the time. Before he died, I
had a chance to work with him, and he just
blew the place apart. And he wasn't he was sick,
(31:22):
you know, and he wasn't feeling good at and so
I people like that. I got to work with the
Mamas and the Papas and the Beatles. I didn't work
with the Beatles.
Speaker 1 (31:30):
I take that back.
Speaker 3 (31:31):
I met them. So I've been so blessed and fortunate
in my life that I got to all the acts
that I was selling in the record shop too. You know,
I'm working a year later, I'm working with him.
Speaker 1 (31:46):
Mark Farner came on the show from Grandfunk Railroad. I
love Mark Farner.
Speaker 3 (31:50):
Yes, I love Grand Funk Railroad and I love their records.
Speaker 1 (31:53):
Oh yeah, I love them. I love He did this
show and what he said was he said, he's a
very fit guy, very ripped guy, very bad And he
rips his shirt off in the middle of the show
and the promoter comes back SATs it goes, oh my god, man.
That was great because because in the back of the show.
At the back of the house, they really can't see
you that closely. And when you rip that shirt up,
and that's fantastic. And the question for you with that is, like,
(32:16):
were women jumping out of the bushes on you in
your band? How did you handle that in terms.
Speaker 3 (32:20):
Of oh, we had our share of that, But I mean, basically,
you measured your success by how loud the girls screamed,
and so there were lots of access got screams louder
than us. That was part of the sixties. But gradually,
you know, hopefully you're talented enough to where your music
takes over. I mean, don't get me wrong, I was
(32:41):
very flattered and very young, healthy American. Yeah, I mean
you know, but later in life you better your music
better be saying something because the screams don't last that long.
Speaker 1 (32:52):
Well, you're one of those people that music is something.
You play it, that song comes on, you're not going
to stop til you finish the song. It's like a movie.
Speaker 3 (32:58):
Well, thank you that music.
Speaker 1 (33:00):
And it's so evoke something. What I loved about music
back then was music was music, and talent was talented.
People weren't as cautious, so there's that famous thing on
YouTube where you see Tom Jones singing with Crosby Stills
in Nash.
Speaker 3 (33:14):
Yeah, he could hold it with anybody, you know, I
mean any r and b artists, any David.
Speaker 1 (33:18):
Crosby's there, but he's kind of playing and looking at
Tom Jones like, wow, man, you really are pretty. He's
the real amazing you know what I mean. But that
way of music was music and people could just all
just get into it together because it was about It
wasn't about me. I'm over here, I'm different from you. Whatever.
No tricks, binga, thank you, no tricks. Now, let me
ask you this. You talk about the change you weren't
(33:41):
necessarily going to record certain types of music anymore, regardless
of who had written it for you and was proposing
it to you Alah Harrison and so forth. But no doubt,
I'm assuming you've seen the montage on Breaking Bat of
Crystal Blue Persuasion. Correct, Yes, you have to. So the
music in a wonderful way, because it's someone who works
in film music is critical. There's this wonderful sequence in
(34:03):
Breaking Back Crystal Blue Persuasion just so happens to work
perfectly there, mixing well the meth in the meth lab.
Speaker 3 (34:12):
You know. I try to tell one group of people that,
you know, I wrote it about the Good Lord, and
I tell another group of people who say, oh, was
that about drugs time. No, it wasn't.
Speaker 1 (34:23):
But that song is, of course one of the anthems
of getting high. It's a great headshop song.
Speaker 3 (34:29):
I don't know whether to say thank you or not.
I just well, you know, it was at the right
time in the sixties, and buzz Aldrin asked me to
come and play at the h They had a reunion
of all the people in nineteen It was the sixtieth
year of the poly Moon landing, and he asked if
(34:51):
called An asked if I would come and do Crystal
Blue because it was number one when they landed. When
they landed on they should have played that on the
I would be honored. Are you kidding?
Speaker 1 (35:03):
So?
Speaker 3 (35:03):
I mean, I'm so pleased that our music has affected
people like that. I really am.
Speaker 1 (35:08):
But like the Beatles, you you really make a sharp
turn there and it becomes music that's almost it was
that song. Like the Beatles complained for years, was that
song tough to play live?
Speaker 3 (35:18):
No, it's probably my favorite song. I don't know between
it's a toss up between Money and Crystal Blue because
of the meaning of the song and the fact that
it was such a big hit for us.
Speaker 1 (35:30):
And the meaning is what from your mouth?
Speaker 3 (35:33):
Well, all I can say is it meant being persuaded
by the truth, and that really is is true. It's
a it's a song about my faith that was blooming
at the time, and about my Christian faith. And it
was very much you know these do.
Speaker 1 (35:52):
You still live there now in that space now.
Speaker 3 (35:56):
More than ever. It was like Sweet Cherry Wine and Ball.
They were snapshots of what I was feeling at the time,
and Crystal Blue was you know, it started. You know
how it came to this a damnedest story. I was
playing at Miami. I was playing a college in Miami,
and this nerdy little kid with thick glasses comes up
(36:19):
to me after the show with a poem. He said, Tommy,
read my poem please. It was called Crystal Persuasion. And
you know, as a songwriter, you're always looking for titles.
You're always on the make for interesting word combinations, especially
back in the sixties, always looking for interesting combinations of words.
(36:43):
And so after Crystal Persuasion, that's kind of an interesting
kind of an interesting visual. I don't quite sure what
it means yet, but so we took it home. We
wrote it that night, and we just needed another one
more syllable to have the rhyming scheme work. And so
we said, and I just thought of you know so
many times, you know a crystal like a diamond has
(37:05):
a faint bluish tint to it, And I said, crystal
blue persuasion sounded poetic. This guy that wrote the poem,
he never contacted me.
Speaker 1 (37:14):
I'm going to say, he's not living in a forty
million dollar mansion in my ou.
Speaker 3 (37:18):
No he's not.
Speaker 1 (37:19):
I thought, maybe you you know, had got Yeah, okay,
he just.
Speaker 3 (37:21):
Discis fishing on a pontoon boat that I know so
at any rate, And I tried to look this kid down.
But now now the words were not we changed.
Speaker 1 (37:31):
Of course, it's not his pod.
Speaker 3 (37:34):
We just used the title. But I always wanted to
thank him and never got the chance. So I don't know.
We may bump into him sometimes. But this was sixty
eight and the record we went, and it was so frustrating.
It was probably the hardest record I ever produced. We
went in the studio and completely overproduced the record.
Speaker 1 (37:52):
Yeah, what do you mean by that?
Speaker 3 (37:54):
We just put too much crap in it. And you know,
we had a full set of drums, we had two
or three guitar we had, you know, just too much stuff.
Speaker 1 (38:02):
Who plays that opening lick on the guitars?
Speaker 3 (38:04):
That was Eddie Gray? Our guitar played Eddie Gray.
Speaker 1 (38:07):
That's great. I love that. It's almost like Santana.
Speaker 3 (38:09):
It wasn't that great? And the night we wrote the song,
he came up with that. As a matter of fact,
he came up with the chords. I said, what's that?
And he says it's something I'm pulling around. I say,
it's great.
Speaker 1 (38:22):
Do it again, my god, great openings. Yes, I've admired
you for so long. I've listened to your music forever,
and I'm so glad to meet you.
Speaker 3 (38:30):
Well, thank you, God, bless you, my friend. What do you.
Speaker 1 (38:38):
See my thanks to Tommy James. I'll leave you with
Crystal Blue Persuasion off the nineteen sixty eight album Crimson
and Clover. I'm Alec Baldwin. Here's the thing, is brought
to you by iHeart Radio.
Speaker 2 (38:58):
Change, Ain't it? Beauty?
Speaker 3 (39:04):
Bath?
Speaker 5 (39:06):
Still to Dissuasion, Better Get Bad?
Speaker 2 (39:21):
Go to see he's a last who love Busy answered,
that's all, So don't you give up
Host
Alec Baldwin
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