April 29, 2025 • 37 mins
Rory Kennedy is a documentary filmmaker and the youngest child of Ethel and Robert F. Kennedy. She is an Academy Award-nominated, Emmy Award-winning director and producer who has made more than 40 acclaimed documentaries. Her work confronts complicated subjects like poverty, corruption, domestic abuse, addiction and human rights, as well as surfing legends, NASA and the extraordinary life of her mother. Her latest film, “Downfall: The Case Against Boeing,” on the two tragic Boeing 737 Max passenger jet crashes, is now streaming on Netflix.
Originally aired March 29, 2022
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hey, it's Alec. We all love true crime podcasts, but
perhaps you're looking for something a little different, less murder,
more intrigue. I invite you to check out a new
podcast I just released called Art Fraud. It's the true
story of one of New York City's oldest and most
trusted galleries dealing in world class art, and how its
(00:23):
doors would close forever in the wake of an unprecedented scandal.
Speaker 2 (00:28):
The art market is ripe for cons because it's inherently subjective.
I just couldn't even look at it because it was
so garish and so not by rothco.
Speaker 1 (00:43):
We're talking about eighty million dollars in fake paintings, or
more precisely, forgeries. All episodes of Art Fraud are available
right now. Okay, here's our show. This is Alec Baldwin,
and you're listening to Here's the Thing from iHeart Radio.
(01:03):
My guest today comes from the most legendary of American families.
Rory Kennedy is the youngest daughter of Senator Robert F.
Kennedy and the niece of President John F. Kennedy. But
as she will tell us during our conversation, she's also
one of the great Kennedy Women. Instead of following her
(01:23):
forbearers into law or politics, Kennedy has made a name
for herself as a documentary filmmaker. Her films feature a
wide range of subjects, from surfing legend Laird Hamilton to
challenging issues like poverty, addiction, and mental illness. In her
current film, She's tackling corporate corruption. That film, Downfall, the
(01:46):
case against Boeing, investigates the circumstances that led to two
tragic passenger jet crashes in twenty eighteen and nineteen. Rory
Kennedy and I talk about her remarkable upbringing and he
how the people she's encountered in her life have influenced
her trajectory.
Speaker 3 (02:05):
I think it's hard to detach anybody from how they
grew up, right, I mean, that's such an influence and
impact on who you become. And certainly that was the
case with me. I grew up, you know, the youngest
of eleven and in obviously a very political family, and
I was impacted by that. I mean I was also surrounded,
(02:29):
my mother made a point of this by really extraordinary
role models, you know, when we had such a the
honor of meeting, whether it was you know, presidents or
congressman and senators, or people like Nelson Mandela and Desmond Tutu,
you know who were in our homes, and also some
(02:50):
of the great athletes and you know NASA astronauts. I mean, so,
I think it was a life where we were surrounded
by people who created a sense of aspiration and to
try to make the world a bit of a better place.
Speaker 1 (03:07):
Now, what would you say though that, as you're making
a film, do you have protocols, rules, tenets, whatever word
you want to use, where you sit there and say
that's not something I'm going to do. That's influenced by
the way your family's been treated. If you're making a
film and let's say some aspect of a story, there's
a very kind of scandalizing, tawdry. When to shy away
(03:29):
from that is the way you guys have been attacked
from time to time.
Speaker 3 (03:31):
I think I have certain sensitivities. For example, with Downfall,
the case against Going, there's three hundred and forty six
people who died, and there are the family members who
are related to those people, some of whom we talked
to in our film, And I was definitely thinking, well,
how is it going to be for these folks to
(03:53):
watch this film, right, And I've had to see scenes
over and over again that play themselves out on the
news that are very upsetting to watch about my family
dying right and being killed, and I didn't want to
subject them to that. But I also wanted to make
a film that was impactful. We do cgi recreations of
(04:15):
what it was like to be in the cockpit so
that we could really help people understand the perspective of
the pilots in these planes and what they were struggling
with with the MCS system. And you know, but I thought,
how are these folks going to watch this film? So
when I sent the film to them before it's coming out,
I highlighted all the sections that I thought would be
(04:35):
hard for them to watch, so that they could be
aware of that and go into it and decide to
watch those sections or not. So, you know, maybe I
have some sensitivity and moments like that. I think the
types of films I choose generally tend to be political
in nature and tend to, you know, I hope when
(04:57):
people watch these films, whether it's this or a film
about Vietnam the final days of the war, film about
Abu grabe that we learned from them, and we learn
from watching these stories and hopefully make better choices moving forward. Right, So,
I think the choices of the films I make are
(05:19):
certainly impacted by the family I grew up in.
Speaker 1 (05:21):
It's interesting that you mentioned that. And this is only tangential,
but remember being invited years ago Clinton was in the
White House. I was invited to the White House to
a screening of the movie The Paper by Ronnie Howard,
and I'm sitting in a seat in the theater and
the woman to my right, who's sitting next to me,
A gun goes off in the middle of the film,
and that woman grabbed my arm and gasped this huge
(05:44):
gasp when the gun went off.
Speaker 2 (05:46):
It was your mom, right, So you know there's me.
Speaker 1 (05:50):
To this day's she's not prepared for that.
Speaker 2 (05:53):
Yeah, those sounds. Yeah, so there's trauma related to that
for sure.
Speaker 1 (05:57):
Now to get to the film. So I watched this film, obviously,
and I was mesmerized. Congratulations by the way, I mean,
you came to the Hampton's Film Festival. Every year a
film of yours comes and we all look at together
and we're like, can we really invite her again? Do
we bringing rored out to Eastampton again? I mean, isn't
enough enough? I mean, how much more can we shine
(06:19):
her up here? But we loved your film about your mom.
We're going to get to that later. I loved Last
Days of Vietnam. That was a great I'm not just
saying this, that's a great movie. Great movie really just
you what film can do and the spirit of what's
happening and understanding that those moments that you did a
great job. Now, this film made me angry. This film.
(06:41):
I was pissed off because only one guy I think
is criminally charged, correct, that's correct, and that we identify
that person, Mark Forkner, And he was in charge of
what is bowing.
Speaker 3 (06:52):
He was a pilot, a test pilot, and he was
you know, he really wasn't responsible for what end and
a lot of people feel like he was scapegoaded because
he was really in charge of making sure, you know,
he was testing the plane. And then he played a
role in keeping the MCS system away from the regulators
(07:16):
and that's documented and there's proof of that, and so
they followed up with that. But you know, Congressman Defasio,
for example, led the Congressional investigation into what happened the
biggest investigation the Infrastructure and Transportation Committee's history. And he
concluded that this was really top down right, that the
(07:37):
top group in management at Boeing was very aware of
the MCS system, that there was a concerted effort to
keep the system away from the regulators, to hide the system,
and to cut corners along the way, and that there
was you know, it was a culture of concealment, is
what he calls it. So I think that there are
(07:59):
a lot of people who feel like the folks who
are most responsible have yet to be held accountable. And
there's been no criminal charges, and you know, Lahllenberg walked
away with.
Speaker 1 (08:11):
The head of Boeing, the head of Boeing sixty something.
Speaker 2 (08:13):
That sixty two million dollars.
Speaker 3 (08:15):
So you know, I think after you've kind of watched
the film and really understand all the decisions that the
management at Boeing made along the way to prioritize profit
over safety, that you know, when you understand the depths
of those choices that I think many people like you
are outraged.
Speaker 1 (08:36):
Well for people, I don't want to I want them
to see the film obviously, but I want to give
them just a taste of so Boeing wants to create
I'll let you fill in the blank. So they want
to create a fleet. They're losing market share, they're getting
their hat handed to them by Airbus. Things are not
looking good for Boeing, who have been dominant around the
world for decades and then and were the pride of
(08:57):
not just Seattle, but the United States as industry. And
then the things start to go down from so they
want to play ketchup and they want to produce a
lower cost, more fuel efficient I think was the goal of.
Speaker 2 (09:08):
The seven seven seven thirty seven MAX.
Speaker 1 (09:11):
Got to get the word max in there. The seven
thirty seven fuel efficiency was the goal. And then a
part of this was the development of this system which
was to help to so they don't make too steep
a climb. A system takes over the plane and lowers
the nose of the plane and forces the plane down,
but doesn't shut off. It forces the nose of the
plane down straight into the ground.
Speaker 2 (09:30):
Correct, Well, yeah, that's correct.
Speaker 3 (09:32):
There was there were concern at a certain angle that
the plane would stall, and so they instead of changing
the kind of structure of the plane and moving the
engines and whatnot. They decided to fix it with a
computer system, again in an effort to save money, it seems,
and that computer system was connected to one sensor on
(09:56):
the side of the airplane, like a weather van. And
so if that sensor was damage, which happens off and
gets hit by bird, something happens to it, it would
send and this is what happened erroneous the information to
the computer system. So it would tell the computer system
that the plane was at a certain angle and you
needed to push the nose down, But it wasn't at
(10:19):
that angle. It was more at a flat angle, and
not only would it push the nose of the plane down,
but it would do it over and over and over again.
Speaker 1 (10:28):
Probably the most powerwing details you covered the film is
and the pilots were not told about the installation of
the system.
Speaker 2 (10:36):
That's correct.
Speaker 3 (10:36):
It's prior to the Line air crash, which was the
first crash. The pilots were completely unaware that the system
was even on the airplane, which was also kind of
flew in the face of what had been the normal
relationship between Boeing and pilots, which was to really educate
(10:59):
and form pilots about everything training, you know, make them
fully equipped to handle any situation that would happen. But
in this case they in an effort to really keep
this from regulators. Really, what was motivating them is that
if they have a totally new system on the airplane,
then they have to train pilots. And if they have
(11:22):
to train pilots, it costs them a million dollars per
an aircraft, you know, on average to train these pilots.
So they wanted to again it seems save the money.
And so instead of making people aware that this system
was on the airplane, they made a concerted effort to.
Speaker 1 (11:40):
We're not even going to tell you about this machine
we've installed, which, if it behaves badly, is going to
crash the plane. Yes, and there's a manual override that
they might have been able to activate. They could have
gotten out of it, I guess if they'd had the training.
Speaker 3 (11:54):
If they had had the training. Except what we also
discover and show case in the course of this film
is a document that came out in twenty sixteen. It's
called a coordination sheet that shows that if something went
wrong with the system, that the pilots would need to
fix it within ten seconds. Otherwise the power of the
(12:17):
MCS system would overtake them if they didn't do it
in ten seconds and the results would be catastrophic. And
catastrophic in airplane language means the plane will crash and
everybody will die. So you know, even if the pilots right.
So in the second instance, in the Ethiopian airplane crash,
the pilots were aware of the system, they did everything right,
(12:40):
they did what they were told to do, and the
plane still crashed. So you know if you don't and
what you have to also remember, and this is why
we also created the kind of the CGI recreation of
what happens in that cockpit is there's this cacophony of
sounds and error alerts that are all contradict each other
(13:01):
that the pilots are trying to understand and navigate and
figure out. Okay, this is saying where you know, the
altitude is in disagreement, the airspeed is in disagreement, that
all systems alert is on, the stick shaker is going,
there's all of these alerts coming at them, and then
with that they have to navigate. Okay, Well, what this
(13:22):
all means is that I need to do these steps
within ten seconds and otherwise this plane is going to crash.
I mean, I don't want to go on a plane
that is putting pilots in that position. I don't want
to put my children.
Speaker 1 (13:35):
Face people are whose job who give anything to save
the lives of their passengers. Think of something more unimaginable
than to be on in the cockpit of a plane
and the plane is behaving and not in some anomalous way.
You see yourself hurtling towards the ground. It's like nine
to eleven. Yeah, you're the plane's going into the ground
and you're sitting there thinking what can and you don't
(13:57):
know what to do?
Speaker 2 (13:58):
Yeah, right, it's completely funny. Maybe they're eating a turkey sandwich.
Speaker 3 (14:02):
You know, it does not like you're not there sitting
there every on total alert for the entire plane ride.
Speaker 1 (14:08):
Well, before we get into the macro of your filmmaking,
one more thing, I think you make it clear in
the film the idea that this is a different Boeing.
At this point, I thought it was fascinating how you
talk about the move to Chicago. They moved the headquarters
to Chicago for the purposes of distancing themselves from the influence,
and I thought it was well that the influence was good.
(14:28):
It was a nice battery. It was a nice exchange
between Union's management, design and technology and the corporate And
these guys are like, no, no, no, we don't want
to be too close to those guys in Seattle. So
we're going to move to Chicago so we can make
our decisions in this bubble in Chicago. And it seems
like what was a great company, that rare I mean,
(14:48):
multi billion dollar enterprise that made big, expensive things that
they were very proud of, that defined a city, and
everything moves to Chicago, And it seems like that's part
of the problem was once the that merger was made
and they moved Chicago, that cost cutting thing becomes primary.
Speaker 3 (15:05):
I think that's right, you know, I think, like you,
I love Boeing and what Boeing stood for in this country,
and you know the history of Boeing, and we really
celebrate that in the film because it's been an extraordinary
company for decades. You know, it helped us get out
of World War two, It helped build the fighter jets
to win that war. It helped get us to the
(15:26):
moon with my uncle Jack. I mean, they helped build
those engines in the rocket ships, they helped people be
able to travel all over the world for the first time,
you know, with the seven forty seven and extraordinary accomplishment.
So we wanted to celebrate that. And during those very
early years and for many decades, Boeing did one thing,
(15:49):
which was to say, we're going to prioritize excellence and
safety and then the profits will follow. We're going to
make the best planes possible, we're going to innovate, we're
going to do new things, and we're going to think
to the future. And then it changed hands, taken over really.
I mean, one person we interviewed said somehow McDonald douglas
(16:12):
bought Boeing with Boeing's money and the McDonald douglas people
were put in charge, and they had a very different
business model, which was very Wall Street focused and quarterly earnings,
you know, And so they've made a series of decision
corporate decisions to cut back on personnel whose job it
(16:33):
was to ensure safety and put pressure on the folks
who were building the planes to build them quicker and faster.
And when people would complain about safety, that slows that
process down.
Speaker 1 (16:47):
Documentary filmmaker Rory Kennedy, if you enjoy conversations about the
making of documentary films. Check out my episode with British
filmmaker Lucy Walker. Her documentary Bring Your Own Gate is
an in depth look at California wildfires and their effect
on local residents.
Speaker 4 (17:06):
What I want to understand is, well, how are we
stopping it and why are people living in these areas
and building these houses that burn over and over and
over again. Could we do better? So you would think
that when people look at developing an area for housing,
they would think about fire safety, but nobody's actually thinking about,
(17:27):
well are they going to be able to ensure these
homes and who's going to pay if these homes burn down.
Speaker 1 (17:33):
To hear more of my conversation with Lucy Walker, go
to Here's the Thing dot org. After the break, Rory
Kennedy and I discussed the filmmakers who have influenced her work.
(17:55):
I'm Alec Baldwin and you're listening to Here's the Thing.
Filmmaker Rory Kennedy has made more than forty documentaries. Her
work has earned an Emmy and several Oscar nominations along
the way. I wanted her to share some of her
process as a filmmaker.
Speaker 3 (18:12):
Well, you know, different people and companies work in different ways.
I'm very hands on as a filmmaker, and I you know,
I love to be doing all the interviews.
Speaker 2 (18:21):
And being in the edit room, and.
Speaker 3 (18:24):
So I don't take on a huge number of projects
at any given time. And usually when I decide that
I really want to do a particular project, I really
try to make it happen. I was really committed. I
felt like this story was so important, the downfall story.
I think, like so many other people, I witnessed these
(18:44):
two airplanes crashing within five months of each other, the
exact same aircraft. Three hundred and forty six people died,
and you know, I, like so many other people, fly right,
and I felt like I want to know what happened,
who knew what when, who is responsible for this? And
I want to make sure that something like this doesn't
(19:05):
happen again. But I also felt that, you know, during
the last decades that America has been really prioritizing corporate interests, right,
And so I think this film than usual. I think
this film, I hope rises to something that's not just
(19:27):
about these crashes, which is you know, as meaningful as
it gets. But I think it touches on something else,
which is the need to regulate, the need to balance
out corporate interests making money, making money, making money, and
the need to balance out with public interest right. And
(19:47):
we've seen corporations like Gooing balances for many decades and
do fantastically well. And I think that when that gets
out of balance, it hurts everybody.
Speaker 1 (19:58):
So when you see someone like the fire the head
of the committee, the guy that was the leading life
there in the Congress, did he have as much integrity
overall as it appears to be on screen?
Speaker 2 (20:08):
He's fantastic because you know as well as I do.
Speaker 1 (20:10):
You know, where are people in governments who care enough
and they want to fight the way we're going. Like
Boeing was a company you see, well, you understand you
want people to make money and make profits. Boeing was
doing quite well before. Sure they had a slump when
Douglas took over. But what you find is not only
do people want to make money, they want to make
obscene amounts of money. They want to make an amount
of money that they're looking at you like you're a child, like, well,
(20:32):
you know, now, calm down, sunny, because there's a lot
of money at stake here for us who run and
own the company. And my point is is that for me,
I'm always so sad. I'm always so impacted by government
officials who don't have the guts to do their job,
and the government's job is to mean. I watched people
in testimony in hearings, and I think to myself, thank
(20:55):
God I'm not there, because I would be looking at
the heads of car companies or ol companies, going, you
don't get it. You come here, you answer our questions
on behalf of the American people. We have the authority,
and I feel like that authority is not always employed effectively.
You said, Defasio did a good job.
Speaker 3 (21:11):
He's amazing. I mean, he and his heart was so
in the right place. But he was also dogged and
he held these folks accountable. And you know when you
see him in those congressional testimonies and chasing down every
single document and you know, putting this report together, which
took years in the making and is incredibly thorough. They
(21:35):
go after bowing and they hold them accountable, and they're
continuing to go after bowing. So I think there are
a lot of extraordinary heroes who are celebrated, who are
really on the front lines of this, whether it's Defasio
or Michael Stumo who's the father of Samya Stummo who
died in the Ethiopian plane crash and turned from a
(21:56):
victim to really an advocate. And he, I mean, I
just got off the phone with him yesterday and he
he's not giving up on this. I mean, Boeing's thrown
a lot of money at these families to get them
to be quiet, and he is not going to be silenced,
and he is continuing to you know, spread the message
that that is that he has very continued concerns about
(22:20):
the safety of the seven thirty seven Acts, the seven
eighty seven Dreamliner. They just announced yesterday the FAA that
I mean as though this should be news, but that
the FAA is going to actually regulate Boeing and not
let Boeing regulation regulating.
Speaker 1 (22:35):
So, you know, point to watch the film because that's
another interesting point about how when I was studying government
at GW in the seventies, when I went down to
Washington to go to school, and we talked about that,
and we talked about how, you know, departmentalization, how people
are in these departments, like presidents come and go we're
(22:56):
here civil servants for twenty thirty years, and so here
at the FA we have our own relationships with eight
with airline companies, and they allowed Gooing to self regulate
and self inspect.
Speaker 3 (23:06):
I do think you're right that there's they're not enough
people in government who are advocating. But I guess my
point is is that in this film you show a
world where advocacy comes from a lot of different perspective.
It comes from the government officials doing the right thing
in this case to Fasio. It also comes from you know,
people who don't think of themselves as advocates but turn
(23:28):
into ads as a result. And then you know Andy Pastor,
who's a dogged journalist who chases down the story and
gets us the information. And it's the combination of all
of those people who come together, and you know, the storytellers, right,
So I'm not putting myself in that category, but we
also have to you know, the Lucy Walkers and yourself,
(23:53):
the people who are packaging these stories and getting them
out in a way that's a digestible to an audience,
and so that that translates hopefully into creating a better world.
Speaker 1 (24:06):
I'm curious for people to understand how documentary films come
to the screen. Bob Drew, he did the trip Tick
primary about your uncle. I mean, one of the funniest
things in the world you've ever seen in your life.
Hubert Humphrey walking into like some barn with men sitting
on bales of hay, saying, America, we know what it's
(24:27):
got to do. And then you cut to your uncle
walking with his wife in the room for the people,
and people are crying and screaming like it's a Beatles concert. Oh,
who's going to win the primary. Who were your influences
in your filmmaking.
Speaker 3 (24:39):
Well, certainly Bob Drew was, I mean an extraordinary filmmaker.
Penny Baker was a huge influence on me as well.
Barbara Copple, who you know, the first documentary feature I
made was American Hollow, which was about a family in
eastern Kentucky, and it was really an extraordinary story of
(25:00):
this woman who had thirteen kids and they all lived
off the land and we kind of spent a year
with them. Certainly influenced by Barbara and her extraordinary work
in Kentucky and Appalachia. So you know, I think those
early Veritay filmmakers have huge influence on the world of
(25:22):
filmmaking today, and then they're just you know, there's just
a slew of incredible filmmakers who are colleagues of mine.
You know, Lucy Walker you mentioned, I think she's a
fantastic filmmaker. My old partner, Liz Garbus, is fantastic.
Speaker 2 (25:40):
Together the company, we're not still together as a.
Speaker 3 (25:42):
Company, but we remain very good friends and advocates for
each other. Yeah, that's fantastic. Yeah, gosh, you are so
knowledge well. Amy Berg is fantastic.
Speaker 2 (25:53):
RJ.
Speaker 3 (25:54):
Cutler, Davis Guggenheim. I mean, there's just Don Porter. I
think that we're surround by really talented filmmakers, and I
think there's I think we've all also been influenced, you know.
I think this verite influence has impacted the kinds of
work that we do.
Speaker 2 (26:12):
But I think we're also.
Speaker 3 (26:13):
Influenced by Hollywood and the films that we're seeing, the
narrative films and the dramatic storytelling, so that we're making
films that keep you a little bit more at the
edge of your seat of what's going to happen next,
you know, and really pull you into the characters and
to the plot and to you know, the storytelling. I
(26:34):
think it's very sophisticated these days. I think you know,
you see it out in the world, and you know
when you turn on your.
Speaker 2 (26:42):
Netflix account, it's a mix up there.
Speaker 3 (26:45):
It's not like, here's the narratives and then go down
deep into your Netflix account to find the documentaries. They're
up center. You know, because people are watching them. They're
they're pulled in, and I think it's because they're really
great storytellers.
Speaker 1 (27:04):
Filmmaker Rory Kennedy, if you're enjoying this conversation, tell a
friend and be sure to follow Here's the Thing on
the iHeartRadio app, Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts.
When we come back, Rory Kennedy talks about the film
of hers that was the hardest for her to make.
(27:32):
I'm Alec Baldwin and you're listening to Here's the Thing.
The Kennedy family has made history, and most of that
while occupying a path from Hyannasport, Massachusetts, down to McLean, Virginia,
and yet Rory somehow landed in California.
Speaker 3 (27:50):
Well, my husband Mark, as you know, is a screenwriter
and a writer, and he is also my partner in
writing documentaries, but he has other writing that draws him
out there. So we decided we'd go out there for
a couple of years because at that time, ten or
twelve years ago, the kind of independent film world was
fizzling out here in New York and was sort of
(28:11):
pivoting over the West Coast.
Speaker 2 (28:12):
We fell in love with California.
Speaker 1 (28:14):
Your brother moves that. I tooked to him on find
I go, how do you like? He goes, It's great.
I go, oh god, no, no, I said, not you
not you come on out. I said, you're you're going
out there? I said, man, I think Cheryl's great, but
there's a lot of other women out there for you, Bob,
and we doesn't have to be living out there in California.
And he loves it.
Speaker 3 (28:32):
Yeah. He came out there with his EMU, his bird.
I remember he was trying to figure out a way
to get the bird out there, and I said, well,
you know, I maybe try Richard Plepler. He's got that
HBO plane. So he called Richard and he said, can
I bring my can you take my bird out? But
he failed to mention that the bird was six feet
(28:52):
high and needed to go with Richard anyway, so he
said the bird caing order came out and then Bobby
didn't have a house for the first couple of weeks,
so the bird lived at my house with Mark made
blueberries and anyway, there are lots of stories to tell
about Toby the bird.
Speaker 1 (29:11):
And he loves California, know too.
Speaker 2 (29:13):
Yeah, yeah, he loves he loves it out there.
Speaker 1 (29:16):
Now, you did the movie about your mom, and of
course you make a little joke there, but how difficult
it was to recruit your mom?
Speaker 2 (29:23):
Yes she was.
Speaker 1 (29:29):
She was not a willing subject to be filmed, No,
but eventually she settled down.
Speaker 3 (29:33):
My siblings were very difficult too, by the way. Really well, yes,
they just didn't.
Speaker 2 (29:38):
Make it easy.
Speaker 3 (29:39):
They're busy yet, No, they just wanted to make it
difficult for me, because why would it Why would they
make it easy when they don't have to know? They
were all fantastic and including my mother, and they they
did answer ultimately all the questions.
Speaker 2 (29:52):
I asked them.
Speaker 3 (29:53):
And my mother, I was just with her yesterday. I
played backhaming with her, and I mean I was just
I was winning whole game. My dice were so much better.
I played brilliantly, and then she beat me again. She's
ninety four. I cannot beat that woman playing back him.
And I'm not a bad Vackham.
Speaker 2 (30:11):
And Claire, I love that.
Speaker 1 (30:11):
I love that. Your mother also, And you know this
infy better than I do. She just in her own
wonderful way and in a truly in a truly marvelous way.
She just doesn't suffer fools at all. And we're playing
golf up there at the golf tournament, and she says
to me, come and golf with me. You're gonna you're
gonna be with me, and you're gonna be with Frank
and so and so and so. And I go, I said,
I beg your pardon. I said, you have to really
understand it's important because this I've crossed this with this
(30:34):
juncture before. I said, I'm a miserable golfer. Oh of
course you can hit a golf ball. Come on, come on,
I said, no, no, I don't think you really understand. I
need you desperately to listen to carefully what I'm saying. No, no, no, no, no, please,
this is non sense. Come on, You're to come with me,
You're gonna play with me, and Frank and I, as
is always the case, I am scared to do so
I do fairly well. I can drive the ball. I
could I get lucky with the iron. I can put
(30:55):
I can drive iron some terrible We get to the
second of the third. Hold in your mother, She goes,
you're right, you really can't golf? Can you?
Speaker 2 (31:01):
Did you shake you off your team? Could we get
low in here?
Speaker 1 (31:05):
Someone? Where's the ringer that was following us to fill information? Now?
One thing I noticed when I worked with the Counstler
sisters who did disturb in the universe about their father,
William Kunstler. And when I was talking to them, it
was I kind of knew this, but it was brought
into sharper focus for me. The cost. I mean, they
told me that they were trying to retire a debt
(31:26):
of like forty thousand, fifty thousand dollars of debt they
owed for archival footage from NBC and other network news organizations.
Is that true for you as well? Meaning do you
do you find these costs or just? I mean, because I,
for one belief that old network news organizations the material
should be made free under fair use. These are public airwaves.
Speaker 2 (31:44):
Yeah, well, it is.
Speaker 3 (31:45):
It can be astronomical the cost associated with archive. I mean,
we're lucky enough with this film that it was it
was fully financed by Netflix, who covered those costs for us,
so we're not debt on it, but it can really
make her a lot of terrific documentaries out there. I
think more people are leaning into fair use, but there
(32:07):
has been a few instances of backlash against that where
people chase them down and demand being paid, you know,
particularly for these historical documentaries.
Speaker 2 (32:18):
It's a real cost.
Speaker 1 (32:20):
Well, it's like people who when I was working more
consistently on the issue of campaign finance reform with creative
coalition organizations I worked with years ago in the nineties,
from disparate sources, we learned that one of the great
enemies of campaign finance reform is the National Association of
Broadcasters because these affiliates in the network TV world. Someone
(32:44):
said to me, there are stations in this country that
make seventy percent of their annual budget during one election
cycle and selling political advertising. They do not want to
take the money out of politics, and the NAB, the
National Association BOROK, is constantly fighting campaign finance law changes.
Speaker 3 (32:59):
Yeah, well, listen I so appreciate your work in that
air area too, because I think, you know, when just
circling back to your point about you know, who are
these leaders now like Defasio who are advocating for us.
I think it's it's hard, given the system that we
have to really produce and encourage people who are in
(33:20):
it exclusively for the public interest, right. I mean that
those are the types of people who you want to
be driven to politics as people who are going to
make the world a better place, but instead they're often
driven there because of money, and that's not really the
reason you want people ultimately in that position. So I
(33:40):
think there's a lot still to be done, obviously with
campaign finance reform in this country.
Speaker 1 (33:46):
Which film for you was the most difficult to put
together as a film, What was the biggest challenge?
Speaker 3 (33:52):
Well, I think the hardest one for me was ethel
you know, the stakes were so high and it was
so deeply personal. You know, I had to look through
lots of footage. We're talking about archive footage, you know,
some of which was extraordinary and beautiful and so fun
to see and just you know, gave me a depth
(34:13):
of understanding of my family and my father who I
never met, you know, just watching him in this footage
and a lot of footage has never been seen before,
was a really beautiful experience for me. But it was
also emotionally challenging and difficult, and you know, I wanted
(34:33):
to ultimately make a film that showed, you know, the
challenges and the difficulties that my mother in particular went
through and faced, but also, you know, to celebrate her
because I think that for so many people in our family,
with a focus on Robert Kennedy, John F. Kennedy, Teddy Kennedy,
(34:55):
but there's not as much focus on the women, right,
and they're you know, my unit started the Special Olympic.
She's contributed enormously, but she hasn't quite gotten that same
level of attention and Nora has my mother and so
many people when they introduce me, they say, oh, this
is Robert Kennedy's daughter, and I'm like, well, my mother
actually raised me, and you know, she played a pretty
(35:17):
big part in like who I am. So part of
it was like, I think she deserves the spotlight at
least for a moment, like at least to be understood, yeah,
and to help people understand her contribution because she was
also her nature was to kind of stand behind and
not you know, be the one on the microphone and
(35:38):
be the one sort of at the front line. So anyway,
I think just for me personally, the stakes were higher
on that one and it was more challenging for me.
Speaker 1 (35:48):
What are you working on next?
Speaker 2 (35:50):
I'm working on a couple projects.
Speaker 3 (35:52):
I've got another film with Netflix that is about a
volcanic eruption that I'm doing right now, and then I've
got a film about.
Speaker 2 (36:01):
The global refugee crisis that's a big light.
Speaker 3 (36:04):
Yes, these are the main ones I'm focused on, and
I'm very excited to, you know, have this film coming
out on Netflix and committed to getting as many eyes
on it as possible.
Speaker 1 (36:16):
Now, Last Days of Vietnam was in twenty fourteen. How
many of these films Ethel was in twenty twelve, I
can't believe it. What of these last films have most
of them been with Netflix?
Speaker 3 (36:27):
Now, this is my first film that I've directed with Netflix.
Last Days was with PBS, Etha was with HBO, did
a film about NASA with the Discovery Channel.
Speaker 2 (36:38):
Let me just.
Speaker 3 (36:39):
Say, Alec that I have such an admiration and respect
for you. You're such a talented artist, and you've always
committed yourself to making the world a better place.
Speaker 2 (36:51):
And you have such.
Speaker 3 (36:52):
A love for people and a heart that is more
open and more generous than anybody I know. And I
just have such deep admiration.
Speaker 2 (37:03):
And respect for you.
Speaker 1 (37:04):
I love for your mom.
Speaker 2 (37:05):
I will you take care. Thank you.
Speaker 1 (37:10):
Rory Kennedy. Her documentary Downfall, The Case against Boeing, is
available now on Netflix. This episode was produced by Kathleen Russo,
Zach MacNeice, and Maureen Hobin. Our engineer is Frank Imperio.
Here's the Thing is brought to you by iHeart Radio.
Hey, it's Alec. We all love true crime podcasts, but
perhaps you're looking for something a little different, less murder,
more intrigue. I invite you to check out a new
podcast I just released called Art Fraud. It's the true
story of one of New York City's oldest and most
trusted galleries dealing in world class art, and how its
(00:23):
doors would close forever in the wake of an unprecedented scandal.
Speaker 2 (00:28):
The art market is ripe for cons because it's inherently subjective.
I just couldn't even look at it because it was
so garish and so not by rothco.
Speaker 1 (00:43):
We're talking about eighty million dollars in fake paintings, or
more precisely, forgeries. All episodes of Art Fraud are available
right now. Okay, here's our show. This is Alec Baldwin,
and you're listening to Here's the Thing from iHeart Radio.
(01:03):
My guest today comes from the most legendary of American families.
Rory Kennedy is the youngest daughter of Senator Robert F.
Kennedy and the niece of President John F. Kennedy. But
as she will tell us during our conversation, she's also
one of the great Kennedy Women. Instead of following her
(01:23):
forbearers into law or politics, Kennedy has made a name
for herself as a documentary filmmaker. Her films feature a
wide range of subjects, from surfing legend Laird Hamilton to
challenging issues like poverty, addiction, and mental illness. In her
current film, She's tackling corporate corruption. That film, Downfall, the
(01:46):
case against Boeing, investigates the circumstances that led to two
tragic passenger jet crashes in twenty eighteen and nineteen. Rory
Kennedy and I talk about her remarkable upbringing and he
how the people she's encountered in her life have influenced
her trajectory.
Speaker 3 (02:05):
I think it's hard to detach anybody from how they
grew up, right, I mean, that's such an influence and
impact on who you become. And certainly that was the
case with me. I grew up, you know, the youngest
of eleven and in obviously a very political family, and
I was impacted by that. I mean I was also surrounded,
(02:29):
my mother made a point of this by really extraordinary
role models, you know, when we had such a the
honor of meeting, whether it was you know, presidents or
congressman and senators, or people like Nelson Mandela and Desmond Tutu,
you know who were in our homes, and also some
(02:50):
of the great athletes and you know NASA astronauts. I mean, so,
I think it was a life where we were surrounded
by people who created a sense of aspiration and to
try to make the world a bit of a better place.
Speaker 1 (03:07):
Now, what would you say though that, as you're making
a film, do you have protocols, rules, tenets, whatever word
you want to use, where you sit there and say
that's not something I'm going to do. That's influenced by
the way your family's been treated. If you're making a
film and let's say some aspect of a story, there's
a very kind of scandalizing, tawdry. When to shy away
(03:29):
from that is the way you guys have been attacked
from time to time.
Speaker 3 (03:31):
I think I have certain sensitivities. For example, with Downfall,
the case against Going, there's three hundred and forty six
people who died, and there are the family members who
are related to those people, some of whom we talked
to in our film, And I was definitely thinking, well,
how is it going to be for these folks to
(03:53):
watch this film, right, And I've had to see scenes
over and over again that play themselves out on the
news that are very upsetting to watch about my family
dying right and being killed, and I didn't want to
subject them to that. But I also wanted to make
a film that was impactful. We do cgi recreations of
(04:15):
what it was like to be in the cockpit so
that we could really help people understand the perspective of
the pilots in these planes and what they were struggling
with with the MCS system. And you know, but I thought,
how are these folks going to watch this film? So
when I sent the film to them before it's coming out,
I highlighted all the sections that I thought would be
(04:35):
hard for them to watch, so that they could be
aware of that and go into it and decide to
watch those sections or not. So, you know, maybe I
have some sensitivity and moments like that. I think the
types of films I choose generally tend to be political
in nature and tend to, you know, I hope when
(04:57):
people watch these films, whether it's this or a film
about Vietnam the final days of the war, film about
Abu grabe that we learned from them, and we learn
from watching these stories and hopefully make better choices moving forward. Right, So,
I think the choices of the films I make are
(05:19):
certainly impacted by the family I grew up in.
Speaker 1 (05:21):
It's interesting that you mentioned that. And this is only tangential,
but remember being invited years ago Clinton was in the
White House. I was invited to the White House to
a screening of the movie The Paper by Ronnie Howard,
and I'm sitting in a seat in the theater and
the woman to my right, who's sitting next to me,
A gun goes off in the middle of the film,
and that woman grabbed my arm and gasped this huge
(05:44):
gasp when the gun went off.
Speaker 2 (05:46):
It was your mom, right, So you know there's me.
Speaker 1 (05:50):
To this day's she's not prepared for that.
Speaker 2 (05:53):
Yeah, those sounds. Yeah, so there's trauma related to that
for sure.
Speaker 1 (05:57):
Now to get to the film. So I watched this film, obviously,
and I was mesmerized. Congratulations by the way, I mean,
you came to the Hampton's Film Festival. Every year a
film of yours comes and we all look at together
and we're like, can we really invite her again? Do
we bringing rored out to Eastampton again? I mean, isn't
enough enough? I mean, how much more can we shine
(06:19):
her up here? But we loved your film about your mom.
We're going to get to that later. I loved Last
Days of Vietnam. That was a great I'm not just
saying this, that's a great movie. Great movie really just
you what film can do and the spirit of what's
happening and understanding that those moments that you did a
great job. Now, this film made me angry. This film.
(06:41):
I was pissed off because only one guy I think
is criminally charged, correct, that's correct, and that we identify
that person, Mark Forkner, And he was in charge of
what is bowing.
Speaker 3 (06:52):
He was a pilot, a test pilot, and he was
you know, he really wasn't responsible for what end and
a lot of people feel like he was scapegoaded because
he was really in charge of making sure, you know,
he was testing the plane. And then he played a
role in keeping the MCS system away from the regulators
(07:16):
and that's documented and there's proof of that, and so
they followed up with that. But you know, Congressman Defasio,
for example, led the Congressional investigation into what happened the
biggest investigation the Infrastructure and Transportation Committee's history. And he
concluded that this was really top down right, that the
(07:37):
top group in management at Boeing was very aware of
the MCS system, that there was a concerted effort to
keep the system away from the regulators, to hide the system,
and to cut corners along the way, and that there
was you know, it was a culture of concealment, is
what he calls it. So I think that there are
(07:59):
a lot of people who feel like the folks who
are most responsible have yet to be held accountable. And
there's been no criminal charges, and you know, Lahllenberg walked
away with.
Speaker 1 (08:11):
The head of Boeing, the head of Boeing sixty something.
Speaker 2 (08:13):
That sixty two million dollars.
Speaker 3 (08:15):
So you know, I think after you've kind of watched
the film and really understand all the decisions that the
management at Boeing made along the way to prioritize profit
over safety, that you know, when you understand the depths
of those choices that I think many people like you
are outraged.
Speaker 1 (08:36):
Well for people, I don't want to I want them
to see the film obviously, but I want to give
them just a taste of so Boeing wants to create
I'll let you fill in the blank. So they want
to create a fleet. They're losing market share, they're getting
their hat handed to them by Airbus. Things are not
looking good for Boeing, who have been dominant around the
world for decades and then and were the pride of
(08:57):
not just Seattle, but the United States as industry. And
then the things start to go down from so they
want to play ketchup and they want to produce a
lower cost, more fuel efficient I think was the goal of.
Speaker 2 (09:08):
The seven seven seven thirty seven MAX.
Speaker 1 (09:11):
Got to get the word max in there. The seven
thirty seven fuel efficiency was the goal. And then a
part of this was the development of this system which
was to help to so they don't make too steep
a climb. A system takes over the plane and lowers
the nose of the plane and forces the plane down,
but doesn't shut off. It forces the nose of the
plane down straight into the ground.
Speaker 2 (09:30):
Correct, Well, yeah, that's correct.
Speaker 3 (09:32):
There was there were concern at a certain angle that
the plane would stall, and so they instead of changing
the kind of structure of the plane and moving the
engines and whatnot. They decided to fix it with a
computer system, again in an effort to save money, it seems,
and that computer system was connected to one sensor on
(09:56):
the side of the airplane, like a weather van. And
so if that sensor was damage, which happens off and
gets hit by bird, something happens to it, it would
send and this is what happened erroneous the information to
the computer system. So it would tell the computer system
that the plane was at a certain angle and you
needed to push the nose down, But it wasn't at
(10:19):
that angle. It was more at a flat angle, and
not only would it push the nose of the plane down,
but it would do it over and over and over again.
Speaker 1 (10:28):
Probably the most powerwing details you covered the film is
and the pilots were not told about the installation of
the system.
Speaker 2 (10:36):
That's correct.
Speaker 3 (10:36):
It's prior to the Line air crash, which was the
first crash. The pilots were completely unaware that the system
was even on the airplane, which was also kind of
flew in the face of what had been the normal
relationship between Boeing and pilots, which was to really educate
(10:59):
and form pilots about everything training, you know, make them
fully equipped to handle any situation that would happen. But
in this case they in an effort to really keep
this from regulators. Really, what was motivating them is that
if they have a totally new system on the airplane,
then they have to train pilots. And if they have
(11:22):
to train pilots, it costs them a million dollars per
an aircraft, you know, on average to train these pilots.
So they wanted to again it seems save the money.
And so instead of making people aware that this system
was on the airplane, they made a concerted effort to.
Speaker 1 (11:40):
We're not even going to tell you about this machine
we've installed, which, if it behaves badly, is going to
crash the plane. Yes, and there's a manual override that
they might have been able to activate. They could have
gotten out of it, I guess if they'd had the training.
Speaker 3 (11:54):
If they had had the training. Except what we also
discover and show case in the course of this film
is a document that came out in twenty sixteen. It's
called a coordination sheet that shows that if something went
wrong with the system, that the pilots would need to
fix it within ten seconds. Otherwise the power of the
(12:17):
MCS system would overtake them if they didn't do it
in ten seconds and the results would be catastrophic. And
catastrophic in airplane language means the plane will crash and
everybody will die. So you know, even if the pilots right.
So in the second instance, in the Ethiopian airplane crash,
the pilots were aware of the system, they did everything right,
(12:40):
they did what they were told to do, and the
plane still crashed. So you know if you don't and
what you have to also remember, and this is why
we also created the kind of the CGI recreation of
what happens in that cockpit is there's this cacophony of
sounds and error alerts that are all contradict each other
(13:01):
that the pilots are trying to understand and navigate and
figure out. Okay, this is saying where you know, the
altitude is in disagreement, the airspeed is in disagreement, that
all systems alert is on, the stick shaker is going,
there's all of these alerts coming at them, and then
with that they have to navigate. Okay, Well, what this
(13:22):
all means is that I need to do these steps
within ten seconds and otherwise this plane is going to crash.
I mean, I don't want to go on a plane
that is putting pilots in that position. I don't want
to put my children.
Speaker 1 (13:35):
Face people are whose job who give anything to save
the lives of their passengers. Think of something more unimaginable
than to be on in the cockpit of a plane
and the plane is behaving and not in some anomalous way.
You see yourself hurtling towards the ground. It's like nine
to eleven. Yeah, you're the plane's going into the ground
and you're sitting there thinking what can and you don't
(13:57):
know what to do?
Speaker 2 (13:58):
Yeah, right, it's completely funny. Maybe they're eating a turkey sandwich.
Speaker 3 (14:02):
You know, it does not like you're not there sitting
there every on total alert for the entire plane ride.
Speaker 1 (14:08):
Well, before we get into the macro of your filmmaking,
one more thing, I think you make it clear in
the film the idea that this is a different Boeing.
At this point, I thought it was fascinating how you
talk about the move to Chicago. They moved the headquarters
to Chicago for the purposes of distancing themselves from the influence,
and I thought it was well that the influence was good.
(14:28):
It was a nice battery. It was a nice exchange
between Union's management, design and technology and the corporate And
these guys are like, no, no, no, we don't want
to be too close to those guys in Seattle. So
we're going to move to Chicago so we can make
our decisions in this bubble in Chicago. And it seems
like what was a great company, that rare I mean,
(14:48):
multi billion dollar enterprise that made big, expensive things that
they were very proud of, that defined a city, and
everything moves to Chicago, And it seems like that's part
of the problem was once the that merger was made
and they moved Chicago, that cost cutting thing becomes primary.
Speaker 3 (15:05):
I think that's right, you know, I think, like you,
I love Boeing and what Boeing stood for in this country,
and you know the history of Boeing, and we really
celebrate that in the film because it's been an extraordinary
company for decades. You know, it helped us get out
of World War two, It helped build the fighter jets
to win that war. It helped get us to the
(15:26):
moon with my uncle Jack. I mean, they helped build
those engines in the rocket ships, they helped people be
able to travel all over the world for the first time,
you know, with the seven forty seven and extraordinary accomplishment.
So we wanted to celebrate that. And during those very
early years and for many decades, Boeing did one thing,
(15:49):
which was to say, we're going to prioritize excellence and
safety and then the profits will follow. We're going to
make the best planes possible, we're going to innovate, we're
going to do new things, and we're going to think
to the future. And then it changed hands, taken over really.
I mean, one person we interviewed said somehow McDonald douglas
(16:12):
bought Boeing with Boeing's money and the McDonald douglas people
were put in charge, and they had a very different
business model, which was very Wall Street focused and quarterly earnings,
you know, And so they've made a series of decision
corporate decisions to cut back on personnel whose job it
(16:33):
was to ensure safety and put pressure on the folks
who were building the planes to build them quicker and faster.
And when people would complain about safety, that slows that
process down.
Speaker 1 (16:47):
Documentary filmmaker Rory Kennedy, if you enjoy conversations about the
making of documentary films. Check out my episode with British
filmmaker Lucy Walker. Her documentary Bring Your Own Gate is
an in depth look at California wildfires and their effect
on local residents.
Speaker 4 (17:06):
What I want to understand is, well, how are we
stopping it and why are people living in these areas
and building these houses that burn over and over and
over again. Could we do better? So you would think
that when people look at developing an area for housing,
they would think about fire safety, but nobody's actually thinking about,
(17:27):
well are they going to be able to ensure these
homes and who's going to pay if these homes burn down.
Speaker 1 (17:33):
To hear more of my conversation with Lucy Walker, go
to Here's the Thing dot org. After the break, Rory
Kennedy and I discussed the filmmakers who have influenced her work.
(17:55):
I'm Alec Baldwin and you're listening to Here's the Thing.
Filmmaker Rory Kennedy has made more than forty documentaries. Her
work has earned an Emmy and several Oscar nominations along
the way. I wanted her to share some of her
process as a filmmaker.
Speaker 3 (18:12):
Well, you know, different people and companies work in different ways.
I'm very hands on as a filmmaker, and I you know,
I love to be doing all the interviews.
Speaker 2 (18:21):
And being in the edit room, and.
Speaker 3 (18:24):
So I don't take on a huge number of projects
at any given time. And usually when I decide that
I really want to do a particular project, I really
try to make it happen. I was really committed. I
felt like this story was so important, the downfall story.
I think, like so many other people, I witnessed these
(18:44):
two airplanes crashing within five months of each other, the
exact same aircraft. Three hundred and forty six people died,
and you know, I, like so many other people, fly right,
and I felt like I want to know what happened,
who knew what when, who is responsible for this? And
I want to make sure that something like this doesn't
(19:05):
happen again. But I also felt that, you know, during
the last decades that America has been really prioritizing corporate interests, right,
And so I think this film than usual. I think
this film, I hope rises to something that's not just
(19:27):
about these crashes, which is you know, as meaningful as
it gets. But I think it touches on something else,
which is the need to regulate, the need to balance
out corporate interests making money, making money, making money, and
the need to balance out with public interest right. And
(19:47):
we've seen corporations like Gooing balances for many decades and
do fantastically well. And I think that when that gets
out of balance, it hurts everybody.
Speaker 1 (19:58):
So when you see someone like the fire the head
of the committee, the guy that was the leading life
there in the Congress, did he have as much integrity
overall as it appears to be on screen?
Speaker 2 (20:08):
He's fantastic because you know as well as I do.
Speaker 1 (20:10):
You know, where are people in governments who care enough
and they want to fight the way we're going. Like
Boeing was a company you see, well, you understand you
want people to make money and make profits. Boeing was
doing quite well before. Sure they had a slump when
Douglas took over. But what you find is not only
do people want to make money, they want to make
obscene amounts of money. They want to make an amount
of money that they're looking at you like you're a child, like, well,
(20:32):
you know, now, calm down, sunny, because there's a lot
of money at stake here for us who run and
own the company. And my point is is that for me,
I'm always so sad. I'm always so impacted by government
officials who don't have the guts to do their job,
and the government's job is to mean. I watched people
in testimony in hearings, and I think to myself, thank
(20:55):
God I'm not there, because I would be looking at
the heads of car companies or ol companies, going, you
don't get it. You come here, you answer our questions
on behalf of the American people. We have the authority,
and I feel like that authority is not always employed effectively.
You said, Defasio did a good job.
Speaker 3 (21:11):
He's amazing. I mean, he and his heart was so
in the right place. But he was also dogged and
he held these folks accountable. And you know when you
see him in those congressional testimonies and chasing down every
single document and you know, putting this report together, which
took years in the making and is incredibly thorough. They
(21:35):
go after bowing and they hold them accountable, and they're
continuing to go after bowing. So I think there are
a lot of extraordinary heroes who are celebrated, who are
really on the front lines of this, whether it's Defasio
or Michael Stumo who's the father of Samya Stummo who
died in the Ethiopian plane crash and turned from a
(21:56):
victim to really an advocate. And he, I mean, I
just got off the phone with him yesterday and he
he's not giving up on this. I mean, Boeing's thrown
a lot of money at these families to get them
to be quiet, and he is not going to be silenced,
and he is continuing to you know, spread the message
that that is that he has very continued concerns about
(22:20):
the safety of the seven thirty seven Acts, the seven
eighty seven Dreamliner. They just announced yesterday the FAA that
I mean as though this should be news, but that
the FAA is going to actually regulate Boeing and not
let Boeing regulation regulating.
Speaker 1 (22:35):
So, you know, point to watch the film because that's
another interesting point about how when I was studying government
at GW in the seventies, when I went down to
Washington to go to school, and we talked about that,
and we talked about how, you know, departmentalization, how people
are in these departments, like presidents come and go we're
(22:56):
here civil servants for twenty thirty years, and so here
at the FA we have our own relationships with eight
with airline companies, and they allowed Gooing to self regulate
and self inspect.
Speaker 3 (23:06):
I do think you're right that there's they're not enough
people in government who are advocating. But I guess my
point is is that in this film you show a
world where advocacy comes from a lot of different perspective.
It comes from the government officials doing the right thing
in this case to Fasio. It also comes from you know,
people who don't think of themselves as advocates but turn
(23:28):
into ads as a result. And then you know Andy Pastor,
who's a dogged journalist who chases down the story and
gets us the information. And it's the combination of all
of those people who come together, and you know, the storytellers, right,
So I'm not putting myself in that category, but we
also have to you know, the Lucy Walkers and yourself,
(23:53):
the people who are packaging these stories and getting them
out in a way that's a digestible to an audience,
and so that that translates hopefully into creating a better world.
Speaker 1 (24:06):
I'm curious for people to understand how documentary films come
to the screen. Bob Drew, he did the trip Tick
primary about your uncle. I mean, one of the funniest
things in the world you've ever seen in your life.
Hubert Humphrey walking into like some barn with men sitting
on bales of hay, saying, America, we know what it's
(24:27):
got to do. And then you cut to your uncle
walking with his wife in the room for the people,
and people are crying and screaming like it's a Beatles concert. Oh,
who's going to win the primary. Who were your influences
in your filmmaking.
Speaker 3 (24:39):
Well, certainly Bob Drew was, I mean an extraordinary filmmaker.
Penny Baker was a huge influence on me as well.
Barbara Copple, who you know, the first documentary feature I
made was American Hollow, which was about a family in
eastern Kentucky, and it was really an extraordinary story of
(25:00):
this woman who had thirteen kids and they all lived
off the land and we kind of spent a year
with them. Certainly influenced by Barbara and her extraordinary work
in Kentucky and Appalachia. So you know, I think those
early Veritay filmmakers have huge influence on the world of
(25:22):
filmmaking today, and then they're just you know, there's just
a slew of incredible filmmakers who are colleagues of mine.
You know, Lucy Walker you mentioned, I think she's a
fantastic filmmaker. My old partner, Liz Garbus, is fantastic.
Speaker 2 (25:40):
Together the company, we're not still together as a.
Speaker 3 (25:42):
Company, but we remain very good friends and advocates for
each other. Yeah, that's fantastic. Yeah, gosh, you are so
knowledge well. Amy Berg is fantastic.
Speaker 2 (25:53):
RJ.
Speaker 3 (25:54):
Cutler, Davis Guggenheim. I mean, there's just Don Porter. I
think that we're surround by really talented filmmakers, and I
think there's I think we've all also been influenced, you know.
I think this verite influence has impacted the kinds of
work that we do.
Speaker 2 (26:12):
But I think we're also.
Speaker 3 (26:13):
Influenced by Hollywood and the films that we're seeing, the
narrative films and the dramatic storytelling, so that we're making
films that keep you a little bit more at the
edge of your seat of what's going to happen next,
you know, and really pull you into the characters and
to the plot and to you know, the storytelling. I
(26:34):
think it's very sophisticated these days. I think you know,
you see it out in the world, and you know
when you turn on your.
Speaker 2 (26:42):
Netflix account, it's a mix up there.
Speaker 3 (26:45):
It's not like, here's the narratives and then go down
deep into your Netflix account to find the documentaries. They're
up center. You know, because people are watching them. They're
they're pulled in, and I think it's because they're really
great storytellers.
Speaker 1 (27:04):
Filmmaker Rory Kennedy, if you're enjoying this conversation, tell a
friend and be sure to follow Here's the Thing on
the iHeartRadio app, Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts.
When we come back, Rory Kennedy talks about the film
of hers that was the hardest for her to make.
(27:32):
I'm Alec Baldwin and you're listening to Here's the Thing.
The Kennedy family has made history, and most of that
while occupying a path from Hyannasport, Massachusetts, down to McLean, Virginia,
and yet Rory somehow landed in California.
Speaker 3 (27:50):
Well, my husband Mark, as you know, is a screenwriter
and a writer, and he is also my partner in
writing documentaries, but he has other writing that draws him
out there. So we decided we'd go out there for
a couple of years because at that time, ten or
twelve years ago, the kind of independent film world was
fizzling out here in New York and was sort of
(28:11):
pivoting over the West Coast.
Speaker 2 (28:12):
We fell in love with California.
Speaker 1 (28:14):
Your brother moves that. I tooked to him on find
I go, how do you like? He goes, It's great.
I go, oh god, no, no, I said, not you
not you come on out. I said, you're you're going
out there? I said, man, I think Cheryl's great, but
there's a lot of other women out there for you, Bob,
and we doesn't have to be living out there in California.
And he loves it.
Speaker 3 (28:32):
Yeah. He came out there with his EMU, his bird.
I remember he was trying to figure out a way
to get the bird out there, and I said, well,
you know, I maybe try Richard Plepler. He's got that
HBO plane. So he called Richard and he said, can
I bring my can you take my bird out? But
he failed to mention that the bird was six feet
(28:52):
high and needed to go with Richard anyway, so he
said the bird caing order came out and then Bobby
didn't have a house for the first couple of weeks,
so the bird lived at my house with Mark made
blueberries and anyway, there are lots of stories to tell
about Toby the bird.
Speaker 1 (29:11):
And he loves California, know too.
Speaker 2 (29:13):
Yeah, yeah, he loves he loves it out there.
Speaker 1 (29:16):
Now, you did the movie about your mom, and of
course you make a little joke there, but how difficult
it was to recruit your mom?
Speaker 2 (29:23):
Yes she was.
Speaker 1 (29:29):
She was not a willing subject to be filmed, No,
but eventually she settled down.
Speaker 3 (29:33):
My siblings were very difficult too, by the way. Really well, yes,
they just didn't.
Speaker 2 (29:38):
Make it easy.
Speaker 3 (29:39):
They're busy yet, No, they just wanted to make it
difficult for me, because why would it Why would they
make it easy when they don't have to know? They
were all fantastic and including my mother, and they they
did answer ultimately all the questions.
Speaker 2 (29:52):
I asked them.
Speaker 3 (29:53):
And my mother, I was just with her yesterday. I
played backhaming with her, and I mean I was just
I was winning whole game. My dice were so much better.
I played brilliantly, and then she beat me again. She's
ninety four. I cannot beat that woman playing back him.
And I'm not a bad Vackham.
Speaker 2 (30:11):
And Claire, I love that.
Speaker 1 (30:11):
I love that. Your mother also, And you know this
infy better than I do. She just in her own
wonderful way and in a truly in a truly marvelous way.
She just doesn't suffer fools at all. And we're playing
golf up there at the golf tournament, and she says
to me, come and golf with me. You're gonna you're
gonna be with me, and you're gonna be with Frank
and so and so and so. And I go, I said,
I beg your pardon. I said, you have to really
understand it's important because this I've crossed this with this
(30:34):
juncture before. I said, I'm a miserable golfer. Oh of
course you can hit a golf ball. Come on, come on,
I said, no, no, I don't think you really understand. I
need you desperately to listen to carefully what I'm saying. No, no, no, no, no, please,
this is non sense. Come on, You're to come with me,
You're gonna play with me, and Frank and I, as
is always the case, I am scared to do so
I do fairly well. I can drive the ball. I
could I get lucky with the iron. I can put
(30:55):
I can drive iron some terrible We get to the
second of the third. Hold in your mother, She goes,
you're right, you really can't golf? Can you?
Speaker 2 (31:01):
Did you shake you off your team? Could we get
low in here?
Speaker 1 (31:05):
Someone? Where's the ringer that was following us to fill information? Now?
One thing I noticed when I worked with the Counstler
sisters who did disturb in the universe about their father,
William Kunstler. And when I was talking to them, it
was I kind of knew this, but it was brought
into sharper focus for me. The cost. I mean, they
told me that they were trying to retire a debt
(31:26):
of like forty thousand, fifty thousand dollars of debt they
owed for archival footage from NBC and other network news organizations.
Is that true for you as well? Meaning do you
do you find these costs or just? I mean, because I,
for one belief that old network news organizations the material
should be made free under fair use. These are public airwaves.
Speaker 2 (31:44):
Yeah, well, it is.
Speaker 3 (31:45):
It can be astronomical the cost associated with archive. I mean,
we're lucky enough with this film that it was it
was fully financed by Netflix, who covered those costs for us,
so we're not debt on it, but it can really
make her a lot of terrific documentaries out there. I
think more people are leaning into fair use, but there
(32:07):
has been a few instances of backlash against that where
people chase them down and demand being paid, you know,
particularly for these historical documentaries.
Speaker 2 (32:18):
It's a real cost.
Speaker 1 (32:20):
Well, it's like people who when I was working more
consistently on the issue of campaign finance reform with creative
coalition organizations I worked with years ago in the nineties,
from disparate sources, we learned that one of the great
enemies of campaign finance reform is the National Association of
Broadcasters because these affiliates in the network TV world. Someone
(32:44):
said to me, there are stations in this country that
make seventy percent of their annual budget during one election
cycle and selling political advertising. They do not want to
take the money out of politics, and the NAB, the
National Association BOROK, is constantly fighting campaign finance law changes.
Speaker 3 (32:59):
Yeah, well, listen I so appreciate your work in that
air area too, because I think, you know, when just
circling back to your point about you know, who are
these leaders now like Defasio who are advocating for us.
I think it's it's hard, given the system that we
have to really produce and encourage people who are in
(33:20):
it exclusively for the public interest, right. I mean that
those are the types of people who you want to
be driven to politics as people who are going to
make the world a better place, but instead they're often
driven there because of money, and that's not really the
reason you want people ultimately in that position. So I
(33:40):
think there's a lot still to be done, obviously with
campaign finance reform in this country.
Speaker 1 (33:46):
Which film for you was the most difficult to put
together as a film, What was the biggest challenge?
Speaker 3 (33:52):
Well, I think the hardest one for me was ethel
you know, the stakes were so high and it was
so deeply personal. You know, I had to look through
lots of footage. We're talking about archive footage, you know,
some of which was extraordinary and beautiful and so fun
to see and just you know, gave me a depth
(34:13):
of understanding of my family and my father who I
never met, you know, just watching him in this footage
and a lot of footage has never been seen before,
was a really beautiful experience for me. But it was
also emotionally challenging and difficult, and you know, I wanted
(34:33):
to ultimately make a film that showed, you know, the
challenges and the difficulties that my mother in particular went
through and faced, but also, you know, to celebrate her
because I think that for so many people in our family,
with a focus on Robert Kennedy, John F. Kennedy, Teddy Kennedy,
(34:55):
but there's not as much focus on the women, right,
and they're you know, my unit started the Special Olympic.
She's contributed enormously, but she hasn't quite gotten that same
level of attention and Nora has my mother and so
many people when they introduce me, they say, oh, this
is Robert Kennedy's daughter, and I'm like, well, my mother
actually raised me, and you know, she played a pretty
(35:17):
big part in like who I am. So part of
it was like, I think she deserves the spotlight at
least for a moment, like at least to be understood, yeah,
and to help people understand her contribution because she was
also her nature was to kind of stand behind and
not you know, be the one on the microphone and
(35:38):
be the one sort of at the front line. So anyway,
I think just for me personally, the stakes were higher
on that one and it was more challenging for me.
Speaker 1 (35:48):
What are you working on next?
Speaker 2 (35:50):
I'm working on a couple projects.
Speaker 3 (35:52):
I've got another film with Netflix that is about a
volcanic eruption that I'm doing right now, and then I've
got a film about.
Speaker 2 (36:01):
The global refugee crisis that's a big light.
Speaker 3 (36:04):
Yes, these are the main ones I'm focused on, and
I'm very excited to, you know, have this film coming
out on Netflix and committed to getting as many eyes
on it as possible.
Speaker 1 (36:16):
Now, Last Days of Vietnam was in twenty fourteen. How
many of these films Ethel was in twenty twelve, I
can't believe it. What of these last films have most
of them been with Netflix?
Speaker 3 (36:27):
Now, this is my first film that I've directed with Netflix.
Last Days was with PBS, Etha was with HBO, did
a film about NASA with the Discovery Channel.
Speaker 2 (36:38):
Let me just.
Speaker 3 (36:39):
Say, Alec that I have such an admiration and respect
for you. You're such a talented artist, and you've always
committed yourself to making the world a better place.
Speaker 2 (36:51):
And you have such.
Speaker 3 (36:52):
A love for people and a heart that is more
open and more generous than anybody I know. And I
just have such deep admiration.
Speaker 2 (37:03):
And respect for you.
Speaker 1 (37:04):
I love for your mom.
Speaker 2 (37:05):
I will you take care. Thank you.
Speaker 1 (37:10):
Rory Kennedy. Her documentary Downfall, The Case against Boeing, is
available now on Netflix. This episode was produced by Kathleen Russo,
Zach MacNeice, and Maureen Hobin. Our engineer is Frank Imperio.
Here's the Thing is brought to you by iHeart Radio.
Host
Alec Baldwin
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