August 18, 2020 • 37 mins
Marc Kudisch is a Broadway staple. With three Tony nominations, he has played such roles as The Proprietor in Assassins, Gaston in Beauty and the Beast, and the sexist blowhard boss in Dolly Parton’s 9 to 5. On screen, Kudisch has carved out a niche for himself working for some of the greatest directors in TV, including David Fincher in Mindhunter and Barry Sonnenfeld in The Tick. His current TV role is Dr. Gus, the intense, love-to-hate-him corporate coach in Billions. Alec talked with Kudisch right before Broadway shut down due to the coronavirus, just a couple of weeks into his starring role in Girl from the North Country. They discuss everything from the start of his acting career to Sondheim to Dungeons and Dragons.
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Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:02):
This is Alec Baldwin and you're listening to Here's the thing.
Mark Kuddish is a Broadway stable romantic lead, comic, relief
or villain. If you've been to a musical in recent years,
there's a decent chance Kuddish was in it. He played
the proprietor in Assassin's Gaston in Beauty and the Beast,
(00:24):
and the sexist boss in Dolly Parton's Five. You're so
efficient and alert and the way you look well ship,
that don't hurt now. Please don't think I'm just a flute.
It's just some nuts about here you. Kuddish got one
(00:51):
of his three Tony nominations for that one. When we
recorded this conversation, he was just a couple of weeks
into a starring role in Girl from the North Country.
It's one of the most critically acclaimed performances of his career.
He plays the washed up big shot Mr Burke, trying
to hold on to his pride and his wife during
(01:14):
the Great Depression. But of course, with the rest of Broadway,
the curtain has come down on Girl from the North Country.
While we wait out the coronavirus. On screen, Kudish has
carved out a niche for himself working for the greatest
Ohtour directors in TV, including David Fincher in Mine Hunter
(01:35):
and Barry Sonnenfeld in The Tick. His current TV role
is Dr Gus, the intense love to hate him corporate
coach in Billions. And if you don't cut down everyone
and everything that gets in your way, then they will
return and they will cut you to shreds, and then
they will cover those shreds in buk Hockey. Well, it's
(01:59):
a life he had trouble imagining. Back in nine when
he was a senior at Florida Atlantic University about to graduate,
had launched his acting career. Kudish had one friend who
had already headed it to New York City and was
working at a casting agency. So she called me down
in Florida. They were casting a new role on the
(02:22):
soap opera All My Children. I happened to be in
the office of the theater department. She got me on
the phone and she said, there's a role. I think
you'd be pleased. Don't tell me you did the soap.
I didn't get the role. I've done All my Kids. Yeah,
but ahead, yeah, listen, man, the great jobs. So I
flew to New York on my own dime. I slept
(02:44):
on their couch. I was there for twenty four hours.
I went to the audition. She had told everyone, if
you like him, he's only here for twenty four hours.
He's got a job down in South Florida. Um, which
actually I did. I was at the Florida Shakespeare Festival
at the time. At the same time time. While I
was there, Pat took me this will tell you exactly
what it was two times square, because there was a
(03:06):
big benefit at the time to raise money from Mike
Ducoccus for president, and Bernadette and Mandy we're like hosting
the event. And I was standing right next to the stage,
and God bless him, there was Mandy and all of
his powers, singing, brother, can you spare a dime? He
was just up there. One I had built a railroad,
(03:28):
made it run, and it's like there's like there's like
ten in your pocket. These well, I mean I've worked
with Mandy's so I've spent lots of time. You know.
There are a couple of people like Eartha. I I
God bless Eartha. I adore her. I miss her, dearly
Eartha kid, I do a really mean, earth, kid, We're
going to get there. So you're there in the shadows
(03:49):
of Mandy, in the shadows of many Burnadette. And it
was like that was it for me. I'm like, I'm
moving to New York as fast as I freaking can
because I have to be here. I got my equity
card from the Caldwell Theater Company in boke ratone because
I didn't want to move to New York unless I
had my equity card, you know, that was important to me.
And then the minute I got my card, I was
in a U haul. Twenty four hours later, I moved
(04:11):
to New York City, where I moved to seventy one
between Broadway and Columbus basement apartment with a buddy of mine,
Cafe Luxembourg. Baby, your right there right across the street.
Six hundred bucks a month for that apartment for two guys,
back lat Man. Even when I moved to the city, Like,
you didn't go above eighties six street right like like
it was like, and you didn't go and you didn't
(04:32):
go into Times Square. You do not go into Times Square,
not even during the day. Did you go in the park. No,
you didn't cut through the park at night. All the
benches were broken, all the lights were broken. It was
a fascinating place back then. I remember, like you know,
and and I remember at night, you would walk with
your head down. You would walk with your head down,
and you'd walk in the street and you'd watch the
(04:53):
shadows behind you. That's why you walk with your head down,
so you could see the shadows of anybody. And you
just got into that practice of it. I mean, I
remember there was a night that I moved to Talent,
my friend Stuart Clark and Rachel by Jones. We we
all moved up here together, and um, and I remember
like she got here earlier than we did, and like
two weeks she got here, she got a Broadway show
(05:15):
and we were both like, oh jeez, and like, is
that how it works for everybody? Or is that just
for a select few? And the minute I got to town,
the first thing I did was I walked five blocks north,
five blocks south. Okay, that's a ten block radius. Right.
Then the next day I got up and I walked
another five blocks north and another five blocks after that south.
Eventually I got to the theater district from seventy first
(05:38):
Street right and on my third day here. I walked
into a restaurant and I applied for a wait job
and I got it, and so I started waiting tables immediately,
and it was fascinating. And that's how I met people,
you know, and I met my buddy Rick Clemens, who
was a bouncer. But I mean, it was such a
wild experience to go into a show in New York
(05:59):
and off Broadway and off Broadway now you know. I
just got into the city a couple of months later.
And where which is where I always wanted to be,
Like you worked a Circle Rep. Yes, that was my
dreaming nine, moving to New York City working for Circle Rep.
That's the kind of work that I wanted to do.
Because I didn't sing. I didn't sing at all. That
wasn't what I did. Didn't I didn't sing? It is that?
Is it really true? I did not have This is
(06:21):
such a powerful inspiration. You would say, you don't sing.
I want to know, but I'll tell you. I wanted
to get into music theater. I remember I had auditioned
early for Kiss of the Spider Woman and I was
at the final call for that and I was auditioning
for one of the roles. And how Prince comes up
on the stage. And this is back in the day
when you actually audition on the Broadway stage, not in
(06:43):
some small room. Up on the stage. Peter Hall and
and and and how comes up on the stage and
he's like, Mark, you know, I love you as an actor,
but I really need a singer for this. I mean
I had people telling me Mark, you don't sing, You
just don't sing. I had casting directors say, why do
you want to audition for musicals? Mark, You're an actor.
People know he was an actor. They like you as
(07:03):
an actor, but I like music theater, and I was
an arrogant son of a bitch. I mean, I just
thought like, well, damn, these people cannot act and I
can act, So all I have to do is learn
to sing a little, dance a little please. And you
also learn in the industry that, like, even as an actor,
you're up against other celebrity people that are up for
the same role as you. You better expand your horizons
(07:25):
if you want to work. Right, So I get Gaston
and as I'm in the show and I'm working, I
have this wonderful dresser. Eric was his name. He's an
ex bass operatic singer and one night, he's literally tying
me into that damn leather outfit that guest don has
(07:45):
to wear because like that's how you get in the costume.
They tie you into that sucker. And he's lacing me
into that thing. And he says, you have such a
beautiful voice, Mark, and I said, thanks, dude, I appreciate that.
And he said, it's too bad you only use of it.
This is right before show. Now, obviously, I part, did
you say something? No, seriously, Like, I looked at him,
and what you want to say is if you you bitch,
(08:09):
like literally, dude, But what came out of my mouth
was then what do I do? Because I knew he
wasn't wrong? And then he just handed me Alan alan
Seal's card um and I went and I met with
my teacher, Alan Seal, and I walked in and I'm like,
I've had lessons with other people. I'm not sure if
(08:30):
I'm a tenor or I'm a baritone. And he's like, well,
let's not worry about that, let's just hear you. And
I worked with him for an hour. By the end
of that lesson, sound was coming out of me that
I didn't know I could do, and literally. I was like, so, yeah,
Alan still alive, and Alan is teaching and he's in
(08:51):
Upper New York, I think. And he got out of
teaching voice. Um. Most of his students were doing opera
in Europe and he was taking on one or two
music theater people. And I mean literally, I'm not kidding you.
I I walked out of there going I will be back. Um.
I didn't know I could make sound like that. So
then I went to the theater and I started to
(09:12):
try to apply what I had been learning with him,
and everyone was coming up to me going like, what
what are you doing? What is this voice? My friend
Beth Fowler was like, when did Alfred Drake show up?
Because I did not sound like that, you know I did.
You sounded completely completely different at different persons being able
(09:35):
to pull out a gun, and you pull out this gun.
You can sing? Now? Are you? Said? There? Going? Man?
This feels good. Give me a task. That's the thing.
I like, Give me a task and I will do it.
Give me a deadline and I will do it. And
I just was like learning. And that's the thing. I
don't think you ever stopped learning in this industry or
in life. And you shouldn't. And I just was like
(09:55):
making sound that I had never felt before, and I
knew other people who could, and now I was beginning
to understand how they did. So it wasn't this thing
that was, you know, out of my grasp. And then
I remember stage management sat me down that weekend and said,
all right, so let's talk about the new voice. Literally,
you were not hired with that voice. And I said,
(10:19):
uh huh, and um, are you hurting yourself? Are you okay?
I'm I feel good? Do you give some device? Literally
they were like, they literally were like freaked out. Keep
doing what you're doing if you feel like you're not
hurting yourself. But I need to have people come back
and hear you because this is not how you were hired.
This is not our show well or this is not
(10:41):
who changed a critical element like that exactly because it
was a big difference, and everyone came and saw it
and they were all like, you sound great, good for you.
It was it was so wonderful and you put it
out there. You put it out there, listen, and I mean,
because here's the thing, man like, And this is why
I say it because as actors, as classical actors, we
(11:03):
get very self conscious when we're asked to sing because
we just don't have the same kind of practice to it.
So I had started to work with other teachers, and
I just didn't feel like there was I wasn't It
didn't feel comfortable or I just felt like I wasn't
matching personalities. What's the first year you're singing? I mean
when I was in college, it was once the first
year you're singing in New York. In New York, it
(11:25):
was Bye Bye Birdie. That's where I like got my
break with music. Theater was by Bye Birdie. That Bye
Bye Birdie. It was a national tour with Tommy Toon
and a ranking directed by Gene Sacks. I mean we
were coming to Broadway. That was back in the day
when instead of you know, doing workshops and going to
regional theater, you did a major national tour. And the
way that producers would be able to enhance a Broadway
(11:46):
run is they'd go out on the road for nine
months and that they'd make their money there and then
they'd use that money to open on Broadway. How does
Sacks find you to put you in Birtie? So honestly,
um my agents are working for me. But the problem
is I can't be seen for any music theater because
I have no musical theater credits, so even with an agent,
(12:07):
no one will see me at all. So I'm going
to the open calls because I believed in the open
calls back then. I figured, screw it, you gotta look
at me now, even if it's an assistant. I went
into the open call of Birdie and I got called
back to the main casting director. I went in again,
and then he brought me, uh three months later into
a final call. And this is a true story. So
(12:32):
it's Stuart Thompson is the casting director. And as I'm
getting ready, and this is at the Broadhurst Theater where
everyone can be seen, and the holding pen for all
of the actors is in the balcony, so everyone is
able to watch everyone else's auditions. If that's not intimidating enough.
So I'm getting ready to go in there, and I'm
wearing my leather jacket, first thing I ever bought New
(12:52):
York City in eight eight, because that's what a New
Yorker wears. I got my black boots with the silver
studs and stuff on him. I mean, we're talking very here.
And then as I'm about to go in, Stewart stops
me and he says, whatever you do, do not sing Sincere.
Now that's thus song of the character Conrad and Conrad Bertie.
And I just and I was like, wait a minute,
do you mean that's And he was like, don't sing it.
(13:14):
They've heard it, they've heard it all day long. They
don't want to hear it. Sing something else if you.
And he says this to me right before my audition,
and he says, okay, go. So now I'm walking down
the aisle of the theater and I'm walking by the Weisslers,
who are the lead producers, and I'm walking by Tommy
and there's an Rankings sitting next to Tommy, and then
there's Gene Sachs sitting there. And I walk up onto
(13:37):
the stage and then I walk over to the accompanist.
His name's Brad Garcide, and I'll never forget his name
because Brad looks at me and he says, are you okay?
And I said, they told me not to sing Sincere.
And he's like, well, what do you prepare? I said,
Sincere that's all I have. That's literally all I have.
And he said to me and I mean it, this
is He said, whose audition is this, and I said mine.
(13:59):
He's like, or sing your damn song? So I did.
Who was it that said, don't sing since here? Stewart
the casting director, don't sing it. They've been hearing it
all afternoon. Don't do it. So I got up on
the stage and it's very well known. The first chord
of Sincere is very clear. You know it's Sincere when
it starts. So he hits the piano and we hear
(14:20):
that first chord, and all the way at the back
of the house, I see Stewart throw up his hands
and walk right out of my audition before I've even
opened my mouth. But I figured, a, this is the
first and last time I'm going to be on a
Broadway stage. All I got this is the first and
last time I'm going to play this role. Or sing
Kiss and one Last Kiss. A lot of living to do.
But Sincere is his signature number. So I do it
(14:43):
because I'm like, I have nothing to lose here, because
clearly this isn't gonna work out. I mean, the casting
director just literally walked out on me. So I did it,
and I actually had a good time, and I let
myself loose with it, and by the time I got
to the end of the song, I was getting applause
from everybody else auditioning up in the balcony. And then
I tried to run away as fast as I could.
I was just so happy because I wasn't a singer right.
(15:05):
And then I heard Jeane yell at me, Mark, come
on back, so I can't use you want to read? Yes,
I do, because I'm an actor and that's what I
know how to do. Then I read the scenes and
that went well, and then I tried to get the
hell out there, and then he wanted to talk to
me for a while. So then I'm standing there amongst them,
these demigods, and he's like, where are you from? Fort Lauderdale?
(15:26):
Where is your father from? Brooklyn, Ah? Where Avenue M
I grew up on k okay Um. And it was
this wonderful audition, and he said thank you so much
for coming in. That was great. And then I was
walking up and I was on cloud nine. And then
right before I leave, Stuart Thompson stops me, looks me
in the eye and says, thank you for not listening
(15:48):
to me. I always remember that movie. My dad got
from the school. Uh what year did the movie come out?
I can't remember. I want to say sixties, the six
or something some some of you. So so I'm a kid,
I'm a little child. We're in the background of our house,
and I think we watched it every night. My mother
would make popcorn and cupcakes and cool aid. I mean,
(16:09):
I'm sitting there, you know, scizzling steaks just ready for
taste in. You know. I mean I knew every word. Yeah,
We're all running around the house and driving my mother
and saying, I got a lot of living to do,
you know, Dad, we knew every note. We watched the
fucking movie eight times in a row before my father said, okay, enough,
(16:30):
we're gonna turn that off. And that's a bad movie. Man,
let's be honest. And I love that movie. I know
everybody loves the movie and it's horrible. Watch it again.
What's with the turtle? The turtle that's running on the being.
I know they're brilliant actors, all of them. I love them,
But you know, what's the matter with kids? All those
I remember every word. Look, the music is genius, and
(16:52):
when it came out, no one had ever done anything
like that. Oh my god, Bobby right out who I
met when I was on tour. No, oh, yeah, Bobby
was great. But then Bobby wanted to sing along, like
like we went to uh we went to a bar afterwards,
and yeah, pretty much. It was it was funny. It
was fun Listen. You get to work with these people
(17:15):
because it was with Lee Adams and it was with
Charles you know that wrote the score. I mean, when
you get the opportunity to work with these people that
built this thing. When I did Bells are ringing on
Broadway with Faith Prince and you get to work with
aid Off and you get to work you know. I
mean like when when Betty camped in an Adolf Green
and these were like you know, you know that Oklahoma
(17:38):
was forty three, they were forty four. They were there
at the beginning. And you're actually working with these people
and you're making changes with these people. You say, is
this like like this doesn't make sense to me? Will
No one's ever asked us that in fifty six years.
There's something to be said for the fact that those
of us that are in the theater never want to stop.
That's why I love it, because it's something that is
(18:00):
always alive. It's not frozen in any kind of time.
The minute you take a piece, bells are ringing or
Shakespeare or Arthur Miller, and you put it on the
stage again, it is alive again, and there are questions
to be had, and we never stop asking questions. That's
why I like the theater. Film and television is great,
don't get me wrong. But you can throw down a
(18:22):
line and ten years later someone can tell you the
line that you did in in in that film. You
don't you don't remember that you're Those lines are fillers
in my life. When I was in college and I
still had enough of I want to want to sound
vain here, but I had enough of a beauty quotation
back then when I was young, I'd be with my
girlfriend if i'd be leaving Anko one less kiss maybe
(18:46):
where those those songs are in your head, they never
get out of your head because it's every night, and
it's alive every night. Actor Marc Kudish, another Broadway grade
who got started doing edgy small house fair is Julie Tamore.
Her show The Lion King, with its masks and spectacular
(19:07):
head dresses, is the highest grossing show in Broadway history,
but the masked choreography had its roots and one of
Taymore's earliest experiences in the arts. I graduated high school
early and went to Paris at sixteen, and I lived
with this twenty one year old Deborah Tate, who was
(19:28):
a photographer and who was wild. We're living in Paris
and I mean old sixteen and I went to mind school.
I went to call to mean Jacques Lecoq. Yes, let
Jacques Lecoq. This is where I started really understanding the
power of mask, the mask and even poppetry. She would
(19:49):
this this crazy lady named Madame Citroen, who looked like
a lemon. She was like a lemon. She was very brutal,
but she would take We would take objects, bru rooms
and candles and all kinds of objects and make them
come alive. You can get a link to my full
interview with Julie Taymore by texting t A Y m
(20:12):
O R two seven zero one zero one. Coming up,
Mark Kudish on his most recent Broadway role, Sondheim and
Dungeons and Dragons. That's next. I'm Alec Baldwin and this
(20:39):
is here's the thing. I'm back with actor Marc Kudish
Girl from the North Country, his most recent performance on Broadway,
is a show that's hard to pin down to one genre.
It's categorized as a musical because there's music in it,
and that's music Bye and music by Bob Dylans. So
it's Bob Dylan's music, but it is Connor mcphers and
(21:00):
the Irish play right. It's his construct, it's his idea.
He was inspired by Dylan's music. But it's an original story.
It's not an easy thing to take pre existing music
and create a play using it. And I think a
lot of the pitfall, you know, because there are people
that want to call it jukebox musical. Okay, I get it,
I got it. You know you don't. You can't take
a pre existing piece and try to shove it into
(21:21):
a storyline that it was never intended for. That's always
going to feel like it's being bent and trying to
be torqud in a way that it was never intended for.
There's nothing organic about it, McPherson wrote, who directed McPherson. No, Yeah,
it's so deeply Connor all the way around, even the
way that he's taken the music and embedded it within
(21:41):
and around the play. No one else could have directed it.
You know, he's not precious about his writing at all.
He's about the moment. He's not so much about the dialogue.
I remember when rehearsals, he's like, if you can't remember
a line, don't worry about the line. The line makes
something up. Just keep moving forward. It's about the moment.
It's about the moment. I met him before I never
met him. I was asked to do a presentation of it, gosh,
(22:03):
almost two years ago now at the Public Theater, and
I just was so taken by it. It's very O'Neil esque.
Jack London asked Arthur Miller esked like it took an
Irishman to write the most American piece of theater that
I've done in a long time. This was workshop in
the Public. Well, it was originally done in the UK,
and it was Dylan, of all people, who had said,
(22:25):
if you're going to bring it to the States after
because Dylan's people had gone to McPherson and said, hey,
Bob is a fan of Connor's work. He would love
for him to take his music and incorporated in a
new piece. Connor had never done a musical piece before.
So he's like, I'm not sure this is for me.
They gave him carte blanche. They let him do whatever
(22:46):
the hell he wanted to do. They sent him everything
Bob had ever done, and I mean analog, the stuff
that you can't get digitally. They shipped it all over.
There was Dylan around, not at all, not a bad thing,
you know, it was you know, the first time he
ever saw it was at the public He came and
he saw it at the Public theater um, and you know,
I mean, he had people all around him, and they
(23:08):
brought him in a little late so that everyone wouldn't
be looking over their shoulder to look at Bob Dylan
watching a show. And and he was in tears at
the end of the night. He was just in tears
at the end of the night. But let me ask
you this, then, that life of the whole day goes by,
and then at six o'clock you got to go to work.
(23:28):
Is there a routine? Because I'm fascinated by this, Is
there a routine for me? I got there early, I
got there at six, and I had to let the
day ooze out of me and stop thinking about what
everyone's on my mind. So I could really focus because
I couldn't wing it. I wasn't Peter Firth who could
go out there and just dazzle people with his British
technique and so forth. For you, what's it like for you?
Is there a routine? Is it the same thing all
(23:50):
the time? I mean what I mean in my life, Um,
you've just learned through practice how to just carry things
with you and have them. It's easy for you to
access what you need to access. The emotions are there
all the time. I'm a complicated person, so plain complicated
(24:11):
people is not terribly difficult, because if you're being honest
with yourself, it's available to you whenever you want it.
It should be controlled, and it should be in trust
with the other actors that you're on the stage with.
I still don't know how it's happened or why it
keeps happening the way it does. What I do know
is why I walk out on a stage. It's about connection,
(24:33):
and it's about communication and it's about dialogue. I am
an introvert by nature. I am not fueled by applause.
I am not fueled by people telling me I'm good.
I'm not good with compliments. I prefer not to get them.
It's about the audience. What are we trying to say?
Why are people spending this much money to come and
hear me? You can sit at home and watch Netflix.
(24:53):
The less that I put the focus on myself, the
more I find there's no problem giving it to them.
One of the things I saw you do because I'm
a huge Sun Time fan. Of course, I'm talking about Assassins,
and I love Victor Garber and uh they had that
original production. I just love that show. And then you
guys come along and do this revival. Was a great show.
(25:13):
It was a great show, Jim and Nannie Servius and
I thought you were phenomenal. You're phenomenal. And was he
around much when you were doing it? Stevia, He was around,
And I'm told that's you know, it's a little bit
intimidating to be doing revivals of his beloved material, I think,
especially when they had a complicated history like Assassins. Yeah,
but I mean, like, I think that that's a show
(25:35):
that he held really dear to his heart and it
never really got the shot that he had hoping. I
think of all of his shows, that maybe the show
he's most proud of I don't want to speak for him,
but I know the gun Song is something that is
really special to him for what it stands for. So
doing I've never experienced what I experienced on our first
preview of Assassins on the theater before or after, I
(25:59):
can with all of us, all of them, but mean
to do that show which was not political and incredibly
political at the same time, and it speaks to who
we are, and it speaks to our dissonance, and it
speaks to the disenfranchise, but it speaks to identity. And
that character, the proprietor that I played, did not exist
(26:21):
like that originally. So I went to lunch with Joe Mantello,
the director, and he pitched me the idea of what
he was thinking he wanted to do with the role.
And I was like, how did John Wideman and Steve
Sondheim feel about that? And He's like, we'll find out.
So it was this grand experiment in the middle of
this revival, and every time someone had wanted to do
a production of Assassins that had always got postponed because
(26:44):
of this or a war or nine eleven because it's
a very touchy subject, right, And I'm the one that
opens my mouth at the beginning of the show. And
to walk out on that first preview and we're on
Broadway and the shoe hasn't fallen. We're actually gifted for
at fifty four, it's two thousand or we're into the
reelection of George W. Bush. People are agitated and angry,
(27:05):
and you know, you walk out on that heypal feinland Blue,
don't know what to do. I mean, you come here
and kill a president. Those are the first lines out
(27:26):
of the gate Man. And to do that on Broadway,
not apologizing for it, and to feel other people's agitation,
I've never experienced anything like that again. I mean, you
could cut the tension like with a knife. It was
so amazing. And when we did talk back to the
audience wouldn't leave, you know how you usually do like
talk backs and you'll have like maybe no one left.
(27:47):
They were all sitting out there and they were agitated
and angry, and literally it was like the talk back
wouldn't even be about us talking to the audience. It
would be them yelling at each other because of what
they had just experienced. You, Lincoln, you write is Wrea
political science? I went for political science when I switched listen,
I know you have a political mind, you know, and
(28:07):
and I've always had a political mind. And the reason
that I chose theater over political science ultimately was I
remember when my first day in political theory, it was
my favorite class. I walked into the room and written
up on the board was all politics are based in failure.
How long will this program last until it breaks down
or shuts down? How long until we have to amend
(28:28):
that program? How long until we have to develop another
one to pick up after? And I just thought, I
don't know that I want to base my life on
the idea of failure. And I took theater courses just
to lighten the load, right, And I thought, oh, well
that'll be good. If I want to go into politics,
then getting out in front of people and having practice
in that would be good. But I just also felt
like I could focus on telling the truth more than
(28:50):
I could focus on the idea of failure. Like you know,
that was also the period of time when um lobbying
was becoming a thing, like my father was a lot
obvious now when you know when you moved you went
from Hackensack to Plantation, Florida, that's you moved and your
dad to do that because of work, and so you
grew up your whole life down there. Yeah, I'm from
I mean, I'm a Florida boy, you know. I mean,
(29:11):
to this day, I still use the word dude constantly. Um.
You know, it was still pretty rustic, and I loved it.
I loved growing up there. You know, we grew up
across the street from cow pastors. It was mellow. How
many kids in your older brother, two younger sisters and
anybody in the business. No, my brother he's the associate
dean now at Villanova's School of Business, and my sister's
(29:31):
ones in wellness, and the other manages the histology lab.
Now I'm saying this with all due uh regard for you,
and I just find this not funny, but it's find interesting.
I mean, you're a big, powerful guy. When I think
of Mark Kudish, I think of a guy who's like
a big, tough guy. You'll play tough guy roles. But
you didn't play football in high school. What did you
do in high school? Um? I was president of the
(29:53):
Spanish club and I was a male cheerleader. No, no,
I'm not kidding. No, I know we are this because
you literally, I mean I only have stupid things there.
You did because you want to get laid You wanted
to guy, Are you kidding? No, no, no, no, shame
in that. No, no, no no, no, young guy. I was
in the Gift of program. My brother was popular. I
was not, man, I was the black sheep in my family.
(30:16):
And don't tell you were a nerd. I was huge.
I was a dungeon master back in the days of
analog dungeons and dragons. Can you even believe that it's
like cool now to do that? There are literal like
stores and cafes dedicated to dungeons and dragons, and like,
when I was growing up, that was like the most
(30:36):
shameful thing you could do. Um. I know, I was
a huge nerd, man, I mean I wanted to be
Carl Sagan and I was in a class with everyone
else that loved those things, and um, yeah, I was
not popular. But I can't believe you, because you're so
fucking talented you get on State when you did Assassin.
I looked at my friend and I go, you see that.
(30:58):
I go, That's what I want to do, That's what
I wish I could do. I go look at this guy.
He's like fucking Paul Bunyan and he sings like Pavati.
He's like this giant figure of masculinity. My god, he's singing.
I go, that's the funk what I want to do.
But anyway, now that you've done that, did you ever
live in l A. Didn't you ever want to say, Okay,
now I want to go do movies and TV and
(31:19):
that means going out there. No. I mean I had
my moment when I really could have gone out there,
and I didn't because I because I wanted to do
the theater. And the industry has changed in a really
positive way because the kind of things that are being
done on television now gives freedom to creative artists to
really commit to whatever story they actually want to tell.
(31:42):
And because of that, I find that film and television
has gotten more theatrical over the years, and because of that,
there's more of it here. So as a younger actor,
it was really important to me to be a part
of the theater. And then as I got older and
I realized that I was getting tired for me shows
a week, and television and film was changing in a
(32:03):
way that I actually felt like I could be a
part of it that there was something there for me.
I mean, you know, I wasn't around when Scorsese was
filming in New York. Those are the things that I
related to in terms of being an actor, and now
there's a plethora of stuff where I feel I connect
to it. In New York City. Can you go shoot Billions?
Scream at all those knuckle heads out? But I get
(32:24):
to be here, man. Yeah, And when you do a
show like that, how does that come to be? Billions
has become kind of like uh, Law and Order, where
eventually everyone in Manhattan's gonna be on Billions. It has
the best recurring cast, I think, on the history of television,
because like every actor that you know, particularly in New
York City, at some point walks across the screen. But
(32:48):
I think another part of it, particularly with that show,
is you know you have Brian and you have David,
and you have incredible writing. Brian and David are the creators.
They are the name is Brian Coppman David Levine, and
they are amazing at what they do, and they create
an incredible atmosphere on a set, which, as you know,
is something I think that holds enormous value. Described that
(33:11):
the atmosphere is what. It's really familial, it's really welcoming.
Everybody's jazz to be there. When you meet the crew
and the crew is excited about coming to work, then
you know you're on something that has energy to it.
It's exciting, it's fun. You know. The writing is good,
it's crisp, it's smart, it's fast. There's no apology for
(33:33):
the characters behaving badly. Every storyline, every individual show is
so smart and fast, like it's really unexpected. Every time
I would read a script, which is rare on other shows,
you'd have what kind of experience? Oh crap, absolute crap,
and you know, but described the situation honestly. I there
was a show. It was, It was, it was quite
(33:54):
a few years ago now, and I literally walked on set.
Nobody knew the lines. None of the regulars knew their lines,
no one knew what both completely unprofessional and I had
a heart out. And I finally had to go to
the director and say, I have a heart out. In
fifteen minutes and there are three scenes left to shoot,
(34:15):
and he looked at me and he said, what are
you talking about? And he drew me over to one
of the you know a d s and he just
was like, why didn't you guys tell me this sooner? Well,
we didn't want to, you know, and then he just
don't want to upset you with the facts. So then
he pulled me into a corner and he said, give
me a second. And then he said, okay, if we
set up the camera shots and I do the dialogue
(34:36):
and we'll just get your p o V. Are you
willing to do that? And I said, yeah, whatever it takes.
So they set up three four different cameras, four different angles.
He read the lines with me, and I knocked out
three scenes in fifteen minutes. I ship you note with
the entire cast watching as we did it, finished it
and they all applauded, Oh my god, that was amazing.
(34:59):
And I'm thinking, you should not be saying that to
me right now. You shouldn't be happy while I'm doing
this exactly. I just was like, so, you know, there's
a wide variety, and Billions is on the upper echelon
of what I think a quality piece of television is,
or or or any filming is smart people writing really
smart stories and dialogue with incredible actors that you want
(35:22):
to be in it with. So it's always fun, you know,
And any time I walk on there, the writing is
through the roof and it's absolutely ridiculous. And the character
is I mean, he's insane. It's fun to be that
out there. Who is your character on Billions? Dr Guess
he's a he's a performance coach. He's just insane. Who
who are you coaching? Any of the traders, like anyone
(35:43):
who's behind, who's not picking up their limit. I'm just
there too, literally scream at them. I mean so intense,
which I love because it's just the id running wild.
You know. I did Glen Gary Glenn Ross, and we
shot the scene for three days and it was so tough, like, oh,
let me wipe my feet on your chim I hated it.
But that's the thing, isn't it. You're there to do
(36:05):
it and you can't apologize for it. You know. I've
made a career of playing questionablement making questionable decisions. What
makes it interesting is you see a guy like that
and you want to hate a guy like that, but
you can't help but hearing the truth, even through the
hardness of it. It's sticking to the intention of the character.
That is exciting about doing it. While you wait to
(36:29):
see Marc Kudish on Broadway, you can watch him on
Showtime in Billions. I'm Alec Baldwin and this is here's
the thing
This is Alec Baldwin and you're listening to Here's the thing.
Mark Kuddish is a Broadway stable romantic lead, comic, relief
or villain. If you've been to a musical in recent years,
there's a decent chance Kuddish was in it. He played
the proprietor in Assassin's Gaston in Beauty and the Beast,
(00:24):
and the sexist boss in Dolly Parton's Five. You're so
efficient and alert and the way you look well ship,
that don't hurt now. Please don't think I'm just a flute.
It's just some nuts about here you. Kuddish got one
(00:51):
of his three Tony nominations for that one. When we
recorded this conversation, he was just a couple of weeks
into a starring role in Girl from the North Country.
It's one of the most critically acclaimed performances of his career.
He plays the washed up big shot Mr Burke, trying
to hold on to his pride and his wife during
(01:14):
the Great Depression. But of course, with the rest of Broadway,
the curtain has come down on Girl from the North Country.
While we wait out the coronavirus. On screen, Kudish has
carved out a niche for himself working for the greatest
Ohtour directors in TV, including David Fincher in Mine Hunter
(01:35):
and Barry Sonnenfeld in The Tick. His current TV role
is Dr Gus, the intense love to hate him corporate
coach in Billions. And if you don't cut down everyone
and everything that gets in your way, then they will
return and they will cut you to shreds, and then
they will cover those shreds in buk Hockey. Well, it's
(01:59):
a life he had trouble imagining. Back in nine when
he was a senior at Florida Atlantic University about to graduate,
had launched his acting career. Kudish had one friend who
had already headed it to New York City and was
working at a casting agency. So she called me down
in Florida. They were casting a new role on the
(02:22):
soap opera All My Children. I happened to be in
the office of the theater department. She got me on
the phone and she said, there's a role. I think
you'd be pleased. Don't tell me you did the soap.
I didn't get the role. I've done All my Kids. Yeah,
but ahead, yeah, listen, man, the great jobs. So I
flew to New York on my own dime. I slept
(02:44):
on their couch. I was there for twenty four hours.
I went to the audition. She had told everyone, if
you like him, he's only here for twenty four hours.
He's got a job down in South Florida. Um, which
actually I did. I was at the Florida Shakespeare Festival
at the time. At the same time time. While I
was there, Pat took me this will tell you exactly
what it was two times square, because there was a
(03:06):
big benefit at the time to raise money from Mike
Ducoccus for president, and Bernadette and Mandy we're like hosting
the event. And I was standing right next to the stage,
and God bless him, there was Mandy and all of
his powers, singing, brother, can you spare a dime? He
was just up there. One I had built a railroad,
(03:28):
made it run, and it's like there's like there's like
ten in your pocket. These well, I mean I've worked
with Mandy's so I've spent lots of time. You know.
There are a couple of people like Eartha. I I
God bless Eartha. I adore her. I miss her, dearly
Eartha kid, I do a really mean, earth, kid, We're
going to get there. So you're there in the shadows
(03:49):
of Mandy, in the shadows of many Burnadette. And it
was like that was it for me. I'm like, I'm
moving to New York as fast as I freaking can
because I have to be here. I got my equity
card from the Caldwell Theater Company in boke ratone because
I didn't want to move to New York unless I
had my equity card, you know, that was important to me.
And then the minute I got my card, I was
in a U haul. Twenty four hours later, I moved
(04:11):
to New York City, where I moved to seventy one
between Broadway and Columbus basement apartment with a buddy of mine,
Cafe Luxembourg. Baby, your right there right across the street.
Six hundred bucks a month for that apartment for two guys,
back lat Man. Even when I moved to the city, Like,
you didn't go above eighties six street right like like
it was like, and you didn't go and you didn't
(04:32):
go into Times Square. You do not go into Times Square,
not even during the day. Did you go in the park. No,
you didn't cut through the park at night. All the
benches were broken, all the lights were broken. It was
a fascinating place back then. I remember, like you know,
and and I remember at night, you would walk with
your head down. You would walk with your head down,
and you'd walk in the street and you'd watch the
(04:53):
shadows behind you. That's why you walk with your head down,
so you could see the shadows of anybody. And you
just got into that practice of it. I mean, I
remember there was a night that I moved to Talent,
my friend Stuart Clark and Rachel by Jones. We we
all moved up here together, and um, and I remember
like she got here earlier than we did, and like
two weeks she got here, she got a Broadway show
(05:15):
and we were both like, oh jeez, and like, is
that how it works for everybody? Or is that just
for a select few? And the minute I got to town,
the first thing I did was I walked five blocks north,
five blocks south. Okay, that's a ten block radius. Right.
Then the next day I got up and I walked
another five blocks north and another five blocks after that south.
Eventually I got to the theater district from seventy first
(05:38):
Street right and on my third day here. I walked
into a restaurant and I applied for a wait job
and I got it, and so I started waiting tables immediately,
and it was fascinating. And that's how I met people,
you know, and I met my buddy Rick Clemens, who
was a bouncer. But I mean, it was such a
wild experience to go into a show in New York
(05:59):
and off Broadway and off Broadway now you know. I
just got into the city a couple of months later.
And where which is where I always wanted to be,
Like you worked a Circle Rep. Yes, that was my
dreaming nine, moving to New York City working for Circle Rep.
That's the kind of work that I wanted to do.
Because I didn't sing. I didn't sing at all. That
wasn't what I did. Didn't I didn't sing? It is that?
Is it really true? I did not have This is
(06:21):
such a powerful inspiration. You would say, you don't sing.
I want to know, but I'll tell you. I wanted
to get into music theater. I remember I had auditioned
early for Kiss of the Spider Woman and I was
at the final call for that and I was auditioning
for one of the roles. And how Prince comes up
on the stage. And this is back in the day
when you actually audition on the Broadway stage, not in
(06:43):
some small room. Up on the stage. Peter Hall and
and and and how comes up on the stage and
he's like, Mark, you know, I love you as an actor,
but I really need a singer for this. I mean
I had people telling me Mark, you don't sing, You
just don't sing. I had casting directors say, why do
you want to audition for musicals? Mark, You're an actor.
People know he was an actor. They like you as
(07:03):
an actor, but I like music theater, and I was
an arrogant son of a bitch. I mean, I just
thought like, well, damn, these people cannot act and I
can act, So all I have to do is learn
to sing a little, dance a little please. And you
also learn in the industry that, like, even as an actor,
you're up against other celebrity people that are up for
the same role as you. You better expand your horizons
(07:25):
if you want to work. Right, So I get Gaston
and as I'm in the show and I'm working, I
have this wonderful dresser. Eric was his name. He's an
ex bass operatic singer and one night, he's literally tying
me into that damn leather outfit that guest don has
(07:45):
to wear because like that's how you get in the costume.
They tie you into that sucker. And he's lacing me
into that thing. And he says, you have such a
beautiful voice, Mark, and I said, thanks, dude, I appreciate that.
And he said, it's too bad you only use of it.
This is right before show. Now, obviously, I part, did
you say something? No, seriously, Like, I looked at him,
and what you want to say is if you you bitch,
(08:09):
like literally, dude, But what came out of my mouth
was then what do I do? Because I knew he
wasn't wrong? And then he just handed me Alan alan
Seal's card um and I went and I met with
my teacher, Alan Seal, and I walked in and I'm like,
I've had lessons with other people. I'm not sure if
(08:30):
I'm a tenor or I'm a baritone. And he's like, well,
let's not worry about that, let's just hear you. And
I worked with him for an hour. By the end
of that lesson, sound was coming out of me that
I didn't know I could do, and literally. I was like, so, yeah,
Alan still alive, and Alan is teaching and he's in
(08:51):
Upper New York, I think. And he got out of
teaching voice. Um. Most of his students were doing opera
in Europe and he was taking on one or two
music theater people. And I mean literally, I'm not kidding you.
I I walked out of there going I will be back. Um.
I didn't know I could make sound like that. So
then I went to the theater and I started to
(09:12):
try to apply what I had been learning with him,
and everyone was coming up to me going like, what
what are you doing? What is this voice? My friend
Beth Fowler was like, when did Alfred Drake show up?
Because I did not sound like that, you know I did.
You sounded completely completely different at different persons being able
(09:35):
to pull out a gun, and you pull out this gun.
You can sing? Now? Are you? Said? There? Going? Man?
This feels good. Give me a task. That's the thing.
I like, Give me a task and I will do it.
Give me a deadline and I will do it. And
I just was like learning. And that's the thing. I
don't think you ever stopped learning in this industry or
in life. And you shouldn't. And I just was like
(09:55):
making sound that I had never felt before, and I
knew other people who could, and now I was beginning
to understand how they did. So it wasn't this thing
that was, you know, out of my grasp. And then
I remember stage management sat me down that weekend and said,
all right, so let's talk about the new voice. Literally,
you were not hired with that voice. And I said,
(10:19):
uh huh, and um, are you hurting yourself? Are you okay?
I'm I feel good? Do you give some device? Literally
they were like, they literally were like freaked out. Keep
doing what you're doing if you feel like you're not
hurting yourself. But I need to have people come back
and hear you because this is not how you were hired.
This is not our show well or this is not
(10:41):
who changed a critical element like that exactly because it
was a big difference, and everyone came and saw it
and they were all like, you sound great, good for you.
It was it was so wonderful and you put it
out there. You put it out there, listen, and I mean,
because here's the thing, man like, And this is why
I say it because as actors, as classical actors, we
(11:03):
get very self conscious when we're asked to sing because
we just don't have the same kind of practice to it.
So I had started to work with other teachers, and
I just didn't feel like there was I wasn't It
didn't feel comfortable or I just felt like I wasn't
matching personalities. What's the first year you're singing? I mean
when I was in college, it was once the first
year you're singing in New York. In New York, it
(11:25):
was Bye Bye Birdie. That's where I like got my
break with music. Theater was by Bye Birdie. That Bye
Bye Birdie. It was a national tour with Tommy Toon
and a ranking directed by Gene Sacks. I mean we
were coming to Broadway. That was back in the day
when instead of you know, doing workshops and going to
regional theater, you did a major national tour. And the
way that producers would be able to enhance a Broadway
(11:46):
run is they'd go out on the road for nine
months and that they'd make their money there and then
they'd use that money to open on Broadway. How does
Sacks find you to put you in Birtie? So honestly,
um my agents are working for me. But the problem
is I can't be seen for any music theater because
I have no musical theater credits, so even with an agent,
(12:07):
no one will see me at all. So I'm going
to the open calls because I believed in the open
calls back then. I figured, screw it, you gotta look
at me now, even if it's an assistant. I went
into the open call of Birdie and I got called
back to the main casting director. I went in again,
and then he brought me, uh three months later into
a final call. And this is a true story. So
(12:32):
it's Stuart Thompson is the casting director. And as I'm
getting ready, and this is at the Broadhurst Theater where
everyone can be seen, and the holding pen for all
of the actors is in the balcony, so everyone is
able to watch everyone else's auditions. If that's not intimidating enough.
So I'm getting ready to go in there, and I'm
wearing my leather jacket, first thing I ever bought New
(12:52):
York City in eight eight, because that's what a New
Yorker wears. I got my black boots with the silver
studs and stuff on him. I mean, we're talking very here.
And then as I'm about to go in, Stewart stops
me and he says, whatever you do, do not sing Sincere.
Now that's thus song of the character Conrad and Conrad Bertie.
And I just and I was like, wait a minute,
do you mean that's And he was like, don't sing it.
(13:14):
They've heard it, they've heard it all day long. They
don't want to hear it. Sing something else if you.
And he says this to me right before my audition,
and he says, okay, go. So now I'm walking down
the aisle of the theater and I'm walking by the Weisslers,
who are the lead producers, and I'm walking by Tommy
and there's an Rankings sitting next to Tommy, and then
there's Gene Sachs sitting there. And I walk up onto
(13:37):
the stage and then I walk over to the accompanist.
His name's Brad Garcide, and I'll never forget his name
because Brad looks at me and he says, are you okay?
And I said, they told me not to sing Sincere.
And he's like, well, what do you prepare? I said,
Sincere that's all I have. That's literally all I have.
And he said to me and I mean it, this
is He said, whose audition is this, and I said mine.
(13:59):
He's like, or sing your damn song? So I did.
Who was it that said, don't sing since here? Stewart
the casting director, don't sing it. They've been hearing it
all afternoon. Don't do it. So I got up on
the stage and it's very well known. The first chord
of Sincere is very clear. You know it's Sincere when
it starts. So he hits the piano and we hear
(14:20):
that first chord, and all the way at the back
of the house, I see Stewart throw up his hands
and walk right out of my audition before I've even
opened my mouth. But I figured, a, this is the
first and last time I'm going to be on a
Broadway stage. All I got this is the first and
last time I'm going to play this role. Or sing
Kiss and one Last Kiss. A lot of living to do.
But Sincere is his signature number. So I do it
(14:43):
because I'm like, I have nothing to lose here, because
clearly this isn't gonna work out. I mean, the casting
director just literally walked out on me. So I did it,
and I actually had a good time, and I let
myself loose with it, and by the time I got
to the end of the song, I was getting applause
from everybody else auditioning up in the balcony. And then
I tried to run away as fast as I could.
I was just so happy because I wasn't a singer right.
(15:05):
And then I heard Jeane yell at me, Mark, come
on back, so I can't use you want to read? Yes,
I do, because I'm an actor and that's what I
know how to do. Then I read the scenes and
that went well, and then I tried to get the
hell out there, and then he wanted to talk to
me for a while. So then I'm standing there amongst them,
these demigods, and he's like, where are you from? Fort Lauderdale?
(15:26):
Where is your father from? Brooklyn, Ah? Where Avenue M
I grew up on k okay Um. And it was
this wonderful audition, and he said thank you so much
for coming in. That was great. And then I was
walking up and I was on cloud nine. And then
right before I leave, Stuart Thompson stops me, looks me
in the eye and says, thank you for not listening
(15:48):
to me. I always remember that movie. My dad got
from the school. Uh what year did the movie come out?
I can't remember. I want to say sixties, the six
or something some some of you. So so I'm a kid,
I'm a little child. We're in the background of our house,
and I think we watched it every night. My mother
would make popcorn and cupcakes and cool aid. I mean,
(16:09):
I'm sitting there, you know, scizzling steaks just ready for
taste in. You know. I mean I knew every word. Yeah,
We're all running around the house and driving my mother
and saying, I got a lot of living to do,
you know, Dad, we knew every note. We watched the
fucking movie eight times in a row before my father said, okay, enough,
(16:30):
we're gonna turn that off. And that's a bad movie. Man,
let's be honest. And I love that movie. I know
everybody loves the movie and it's horrible. Watch it again.
What's with the turtle? The turtle that's running on the being.
I know they're brilliant actors, all of them. I love them,
But you know, what's the matter with kids? All those
I remember every word. Look, the music is genius, and
(16:52):
when it came out, no one had ever done anything
like that. Oh my god, Bobby right out who I
met when I was on tour. No, oh, yeah, Bobby
was great. But then Bobby wanted to sing along, like
like we went to uh we went to a bar afterwards,
and yeah, pretty much. It was it was funny. It
was fun Listen. You get to work with these people
(17:15):
because it was with Lee Adams and it was with
Charles you know that wrote the score. I mean, when
you get the opportunity to work with these people that
built this thing. When I did Bells are ringing on
Broadway with Faith Prince and you get to work with
aid Off and you get to work you know. I
mean like when when Betty camped in an Adolf Green
and these were like you know, you know that Oklahoma
(17:38):
was forty three, they were forty four. They were there
at the beginning. And you're actually working with these people
and you're making changes with these people. You say, is
this like like this doesn't make sense to me? Will
No one's ever asked us that in fifty six years.
There's something to be said for the fact that those
of us that are in the theater never want to stop.
That's why I love it, because it's something that is
(18:00):
always alive. It's not frozen in any kind of time.
The minute you take a piece, bells are ringing or
Shakespeare or Arthur Miller, and you put it on the
stage again, it is alive again, and there are questions
to be had, and we never stop asking questions. That's
why I like the theater. Film and television is great,
don't get me wrong. But you can throw down a
(18:22):
line and ten years later someone can tell you the
line that you did in in in that film. You
don't you don't remember that you're Those lines are fillers
in my life. When I was in college and I
still had enough of I want to want to sound
vain here, but I had enough of a beauty quotation
back then when I was young, I'd be with my
girlfriend if i'd be leaving Anko one less kiss maybe
(18:46):
where those those songs are in your head, they never
get out of your head because it's every night, and
it's alive every night. Actor Marc Kudish, another Broadway grade
who got started doing edgy small house fair is Julie Tamore.
Her show The Lion King, with its masks and spectacular
(19:07):
head dresses, is the highest grossing show in Broadway history,
but the masked choreography had its roots and one of
Taymore's earliest experiences in the arts. I graduated high school
early and went to Paris at sixteen, and I lived
with this twenty one year old Deborah Tate, who was
(19:28):
a photographer and who was wild. We're living in Paris
and I mean old sixteen and I went to mind school.
I went to call to mean Jacques Lecoq. Yes, let
Jacques Lecoq. This is where I started really understanding the
power of mask, the mask and even poppetry. She would
(19:49):
this this crazy lady named Madame Citroen, who looked like
a lemon. She was like a lemon. She was very brutal,
but she would take We would take objects, bru rooms
and candles and all kinds of objects and make them
come alive. You can get a link to my full
interview with Julie Taymore by texting t A Y m
(20:12):
O R two seven zero one zero one. Coming up,
Mark Kudish on his most recent Broadway role, Sondheim and
Dungeons and Dragons. That's next. I'm Alec Baldwin and this
(20:39):
is here's the thing. I'm back with actor Marc Kudish
Girl from the North Country, his most recent performance on Broadway,
is a show that's hard to pin down to one genre.
It's categorized as a musical because there's music in it,
and that's music Bye and music by Bob Dylans. So
it's Bob Dylan's music, but it is Connor mcphers and
(21:00):
the Irish play right. It's his construct, it's his idea.
He was inspired by Dylan's music. But it's an original story.
It's not an easy thing to take pre existing music
and create a play using it. And I think a
lot of the pitfall, you know, because there are people
that want to call it jukebox musical. Okay, I get it,
I got it. You know you don't. You can't take
a pre existing piece and try to shove it into
(21:21):
a storyline that it was never intended for. That's always
going to feel like it's being bent and trying to
be torqud in a way that it was never intended for.
There's nothing organic about it, McPherson wrote, who directed McPherson. No, Yeah,
it's so deeply Connor all the way around, even the
way that he's taken the music and embedded it within
(21:41):
and around the play. No one else could have directed it.
You know, he's not precious about his writing at all.
He's about the moment. He's not so much about the dialogue.
I remember when rehearsals, he's like, if you can't remember
a line, don't worry about the line. The line makes
something up. Just keep moving forward. It's about the moment.
It's about the moment. I met him before I never
met him. I was asked to do a presentation of it, gosh,
(22:03):
almost two years ago now at the Public Theater, and
I just was so taken by it. It's very O'Neil esque.
Jack London asked Arthur Miller esked like it took an
Irishman to write the most American piece of theater that
I've done in a long time. This was workshop in
the Public. Well, it was originally done in the UK,
and it was Dylan, of all people, who had said,
(22:25):
if you're going to bring it to the States after
because Dylan's people had gone to McPherson and said, hey,
Bob is a fan of Connor's work. He would love
for him to take his music and incorporated in a
new piece. Connor had never done a musical piece before.
So he's like, I'm not sure this is for me.
They gave him carte blanche. They let him do whatever
(22:46):
the hell he wanted to do. They sent him everything
Bob had ever done, and I mean analog, the stuff
that you can't get digitally. They shipped it all over.
There was Dylan around, not at all, not a bad thing,
you know, it was you know, the first time he
ever saw it was at the public He came and
he saw it at the Public theater um, and you know,
I mean, he had people all around him, and they
(23:08):
brought him in a little late so that everyone wouldn't
be looking over their shoulder to look at Bob Dylan
watching a show. And and he was in tears at
the end of the night. He was just in tears
at the end of the night. But let me ask
you this, then, that life of the whole day goes by,
and then at six o'clock you got to go to work.
(23:28):
Is there a routine? Because I'm fascinated by this, Is
there a routine for me? I got there early, I
got there at six, and I had to let the
day ooze out of me and stop thinking about what
everyone's on my mind. So I could really focus because
I couldn't wing it. I wasn't Peter Firth who could
go out there and just dazzle people with his British
technique and so forth. For you, what's it like for you?
Is there a routine? Is it the same thing all
(23:50):
the time? I mean what I mean in my life, Um,
you've just learned through practice how to just carry things
with you and have them. It's easy for you to
access what you need to access. The emotions are there
all the time. I'm a complicated person, so plain complicated
(24:11):
people is not terribly difficult, because if you're being honest
with yourself, it's available to you whenever you want it.
It should be controlled, and it should be in trust
with the other actors that you're on the stage with.
I still don't know how it's happened or why it
keeps happening the way it does. What I do know
is why I walk out on a stage. It's about connection,
(24:33):
and it's about communication and it's about dialogue. I am
an introvert by nature. I am not fueled by applause.
I am not fueled by people telling me I'm good.
I'm not good with compliments. I prefer not to get them.
It's about the audience. What are we trying to say?
Why are people spending this much money to come and
hear me? You can sit at home and watch Netflix.
(24:53):
The less that I put the focus on myself, the
more I find there's no problem giving it to them.
One of the things I saw you do because I'm
a huge Sun Time fan. Of course, I'm talking about Assassins,
and I love Victor Garber and uh they had that
original production. I just love that show. And then you
guys come along and do this revival. Was a great show.
(25:13):
It was a great show, Jim and Nannie Servius and
I thought you were phenomenal. You're phenomenal. And was he
around much when you were doing it? Stevia, He was around,
And I'm told that's you know, it's a little bit
intimidating to be doing revivals of his beloved material, I think,
especially when they had a complicated history like Assassins. Yeah,
but I mean, like, I think that that's a show
(25:35):
that he held really dear to his heart and it
never really got the shot that he had hoping. I
think of all of his shows, that maybe the show
he's most proud of I don't want to speak for him,
but I know the gun Song is something that is
really special to him for what it stands for. So
doing I've never experienced what I experienced on our first
preview of Assassins on the theater before or after, I
(25:59):
can with all of us, all of them, but mean
to do that show which was not political and incredibly
political at the same time, and it speaks to who
we are, and it speaks to our dissonance, and it
speaks to the disenfranchise, but it speaks to identity. And
that character, the proprietor that I played, did not exist
(26:21):
like that originally. So I went to lunch with Joe Mantello,
the director, and he pitched me the idea of what
he was thinking he wanted to do with the role.
And I was like, how did John Wideman and Steve
Sondheim feel about that? And He's like, we'll find out.
So it was this grand experiment in the middle of
this revival, and every time someone had wanted to do
a production of Assassins that had always got postponed because
(26:44):
of this or a war or nine eleven because it's
a very touchy subject, right, And I'm the one that
opens my mouth at the beginning of the show. And
to walk out on that first preview and we're on
Broadway and the shoe hasn't fallen. We're actually gifted for
at fifty four, it's two thousand or we're into the
reelection of George W. Bush. People are agitated and angry,
(27:05):
and you know, you walk out on that heypal feinland Blue,
don't know what to do. I mean, you come here
and kill a president. Those are the first lines out
(27:26):
of the gate Man. And to do that on Broadway,
not apologizing for it, and to feel other people's agitation,
I've never experienced anything like that again. I mean, you
could cut the tension like with a knife. It was
so amazing. And when we did talk back to the
audience wouldn't leave, you know how you usually do like
talk backs and you'll have like maybe no one left.
(27:47):
They were all sitting out there and they were agitated
and angry, and literally it was like the talk back
wouldn't even be about us talking to the audience. It
would be them yelling at each other because of what
they had just experienced. You, Lincoln, you write is Wrea
political science? I went for political science when I switched listen,
I know you have a political mind, you know, and
(28:07):
and I've always had a political mind. And the reason
that I chose theater over political science ultimately was I
remember when my first day in political theory, it was
my favorite class. I walked into the room and written
up on the board was all politics are based in failure.
How long will this program last until it breaks down
or shuts down? How long until we have to amend
(28:28):
that program? How long until we have to develop another
one to pick up after? And I just thought, I
don't know that I want to base my life on
the idea of failure. And I took theater courses just
to lighten the load, right, And I thought, oh, well
that'll be good. If I want to go into politics,
then getting out in front of people and having practice
in that would be good. But I just also felt
like I could focus on telling the truth more than
(28:50):
I could focus on the idea of failure. Like you know,
that was also the period of time when um lobbying
was becoming a thing, like my father was a lot
obvious now when you know when you moved you went
from Hackensack to Plantation, Florida, that's you moved and your
dad to do that because of work, and so you
grew up your whole life down there. Yeah, I'm from
I mean, I'm a Florida boy, you know. I mean,
(29:11):
to this day, I still use the word dude constantly. Um.
You know, it was still pretty rustic, and I loved it.
I loved growing up there. You know, we grew up
across the street from cow pastors. It was mellow. How
many kids in your older brother, two younger sisters and
anybody in the business. No, my brother he's the associate
dean now at Villanova's School of Business, and my sister's
(29:31):
ones in wellness, and the other manages the histology lab.
Now I'm saying this with all due uh regard for you,
and I just find this not funny, but it's find interesting.
I mean, you're a big, powerful guy. When I think
of Mark Kudish, I think of a guy who's like
a big, tough guy. You'll play tough guy roles. But
you didn't play football in high school. What did you
do in high school? Um? I was president of the
(29:53):
Spanish club and I was a male cheerleader. No, no,
I'm not kidding. No, I know we are this because
you literally, I mean I only have stupid things there.
You did because you want to get laid You wanted
to guy, Are you kidding? No, no, no, no, shame
in that. No, no, no no, no, young guy. I was
in the Gift of program. My brother was popular. I
was not, man, I was the black sheep in my family.
(30:16):
And don't tell you were a nerd. I was huge.
I was a dungeon master back in the days of
analog dungeons and dragons. Can you even believe that it's
like cool now to do that? There are literal like
stores and cafes dedicated to dungeons and dragons, and like,
when I was growing up, that was like the most
(30:36):
shameful thing you could do. Um. I know, I was
a huge nerd, man, I mean I wanted to be
Carl Sagan and I was in a class with everyone
else that loved those things, and um, yeah, I was
not popular. But I can't believe you, because you're so
fucking talented you get on State when you did Assassin.
I looked at my friend and I go, you see that.
(30:58):
I go, That's what I want to do, That's what
I wish I could do. I go look at this guy.
He's like fucking Paul Bunyan and he sings like Pavati.
He's like this giant figure of masculinity. My god, he's singing.
I go, that's the funk what I want to do.
But anyway, now that you've done that, did you ever
live in l A. Didn't you ever want to say, Okay,
now I want to go do movies and TV and
(31:19):
that means going out there. No. I mean I had
my moment when I really could have gone out there,
and I didn't because I because I wanted to do
the theater. And the industry has changed in a really
positive way because the kind of things that are being
done on television now gives freedom to creative artists to
really commit to whatever story they actually want to tell.
(31:42):
And because of that, I find that film and television
has gotten more theatrical over the years, and because of that,
there's more of it here. So as a younger actor,
it was really important to me to be a part
of the theater. And then as I got older and
I realized that I was getting tired for me shows
a week, and television and film was changing in a
(32:03):
way that I actually felt like I could be a
part of it that there was something there for me.
I mean, you know, I wasn't around when Scorsese was
filming in New York. Those are the things that I
related to in terms of being an actor, and now
there's a plethora of stuff where I feel I connect
to it. In New York City. Can you go shoot Billions?
Scream at all those knuckle heads out? But I get
(32:24):
to be here, man. Yeah, And when you do a
show like that, how does that come to be? Billions
has become kind of like uh, Law and Order, where
eventually everyone in Manhattan's gonna be on Billions. It has
the best recurring cast, I think, on the history of television,
because like every actor that you know, particularly in New
York City, at some point walks across the screen. But
(32:48):
I think another part of it, particularly with that show,
is you know you have Brian and you have David,
and you have incredible writing. Brian and David are the creators.
They are the name is Brian Coppman David Levine, and
they are amazing at what they do, and they create
an incredible atmosphere on a set, which, as you know,
is something I think that holds enormous value. Described that
(33:11):
the atmosphere is what. It's really familial, it's really welcoming.
Everybody's jazz to be there. When you meet the crew
and the crew is excited about coming to work, then
you know you're on something that has energy to it.
It's exciting, it's fun. You know. The writing is good,
it's crisp, it's smart, it's fast. There's no apology for
(33:33):
the characters behaving badly. Every storyline, every individual show is
so smart and fast, like it's really unexpected. Every time
I would read a script, which is rare on other shows,
you'd have what kind of experience? Oh crap, absolute crap,
and you know, but described the situation honestly. I there
was a show. It was, It was, it was quite
(33:54):
a few years ago now, and I literally walked on set.
Nobody knew the lines. None of the regulars knew their lines,
no one knew what both completely unprofessional and I had
a heart out. And I finally had to go to
the director and say, I have a heart out. In
fifteen minutes and there are three scenes left to shoot,
(34:15):
and he looked at me and he said, what are
you talking about? And he drew me over to one
of the you know a d s and he just
was like, why didn't you guys tell me this sooner? Well,
we didn't want to, you know, and then he just
don't want to upset you with the facts. So then
he pulled me into a corner and he said, give
me a second. And then he said, okay, if we
set up the camera shots and I do the dialogue
(34:36):
and we'll just get your p o V. Are you
willing to do that? And I said, yeah, whatever it takes.
So they set up three four different cameras, four different angles.
He read the lines with me, and I knocked out
three scenes in fifteen minutes. I ship you note with
the entire cast watching as we did it, finished it
and they all applauded, Oh my god, that was amazing.
(34:59):
And I'm thinking, you should not be saying that to
me right now. You shouldn't be happy while I'm doing
this exactly. I just was like, so, you know, there's
a wide variety, and Billions is on the upper echelon
of what I think a quality piece of television is,
or or or any filming is smart people writing really
smart stories and dialogue with incredible actors that you want
(35:22):
to be in it with. So it's always fun, you know,
And any time I walk on there, the writing is
through the roof and it's absolutely ridiculous. And the character
is I mean, he's insane. It's fun to be that
out there. Who is your character on Billions? Dr Guess
he's a he's a performance coach. He's just insane. Who
who are you coaching? Any of the traders, like anyone
(35:43):
who's behind, who's not picking up their limit. I'm just
there too, literally scream at them. I mean so intense,
which I love because it's just the id running wild.
You know. I did Glen Gary Glenn Ross, and we
shot the scene for three days and it was so tough, like, oh,
let me wipe my feet on your chim I hated it.
But that's the thing, isn't it. You're there to do
(36:05):
it and you can't apologize for it. You know. I've
made a career of playing questionablement making questionable decisions. What
makes it interesting is you see a guy like that
and you want to hate a guy like that, but
you can't help but hearing the truth, even through the
hardness of it. It's sticking to the intention of the character.
That is exciting about doing it. While you wait to
(36:29):
see Marc Kudish on Broadway, you can watch him on
Showtime in Billions. I'm Alec Baldwin and this is here's
the thing
Host
Alec Baldwin
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