June 20, 2025 • 59 mins
What does it mean to grow up without a dad — and still want to become one? Ben, Ryan, and Yvie get raw about their relationships with masculinity, parenthood, and the fathers who raised — or failed — them. From Doja Cat’s viral fan moment to growing up queer in homes that didn’t always feel safe, the hosts reflect on forgiveness, trauma, and found family. Plus: the power of queer uncles, the idea of chosen family, and why some of us are still thinking about Bill Cosby (yikes).
If you’re HIGHKEY! vibing with us, come hang out with us on Patreon! We’re dropping bonus content, behind-the-scenes tea, exclusive group hangs — basically, the HighKiKi.
www.patreon.com/HIGHKEY
Watch HIGHKEY! on YouTube at youtube.com/@highkeyhere
Follow along on socials @highkeyhere.
HIGHKEY! is a production of iHeartPodcasts, as part of the Outspoken network. The show is created and executive produced by Ben O’Keefe, Ryan Mitchell, Yvie Oddly, and Spoke Media.
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Anna Wintour says this about fashion, people are jealous that
they can't be a part of it, and that's why
they hate it. And it's so true. And I think,
like with Bo talks Botox, he's not accessible. I think
it's just being more accessible. If we were in South
Korea right now, everybody would be talks up because it's
so accessible. And we're going to take a trip to
South Korea and get our all star spaces for sure, but.
Speaker 2 (00:20):
Likely know.
Speaker 1 (00:25):
In the back of you we're going to South Korea.
Speaker 3 (00:35):
Thank you.
Speaker 2 (00:38):
What's up? Everybody? Welcome to High Key. Yeah. I'm ben
O Keith, I'm Ryan Mitchell, and I'm oddly Today.
Speaker 1 (00:44):
We are serving up a big idea episode on Father's Day.
We are digging into masculinity, our own complex relationships with
our fathers and all things daddy.
Speaker 2 (00:56):
But first, you know what we gotta do. Let's get
into the high Key Key. This is so interesting.
Speaker 4 (01:02):
I feel like because I we've been doing like press
moments for the show and I did a sloppy seconds
with Big Dipper in me balls. Ryan Mitchell, Hello, you
know the way you talk about funians also made me
think about the way people talk about racism. Such an
(01:24):
interesting moment because I love the show, but I just
was not sure what to expect. And it's funny because
I'm the girl in my friend group that is like
the out there one I'm talking about the sets I'm
talking about who was just blow in my back. I
feel like, you know, I'm just that person. But when
I was in the room with them, I was like,
clutch his pearls. I don't know what in gay hell
I've entered into.
Speaker 2 (01:44):
Should I have eavy to this one? But it was
so much fun. It was so much fun. You were
really good too.
Speaker 3 (01:53):
It was very sweet getting to hear you like lift
Me and Benna talk shit about us true yourself. You've
been hiding you two face bitch well.
Speaker 2 (02:03):
And that's also the thing like doing these shows.
Speaker 4 (02:05):
It's like, oh, I realized, like I know how to
talk about myself when it comes to like in this moment.
But it's been interesting having to go somewhere like oh,
I'm the one being interviewed instead of actually doing the interviewing.
And I don't know if I prefer it. I feel
like I I.
Speaker 2 (02:24):
To not answer questions.
Speaker 4 (02:25):
I flip it and start asking them questions and then
it's like the attentions off of fa.
Speaker 1 (02:29):
It's so funny your stuff. I literally said that to
Maddie as we were listening. I was like, you know
how I love to be interviewed. Ryan loves to be
the interviewer like you are. You're so good at it.
It's one of the reasons why oftentimes we're like, I
don't know, maybe Ryan should just do that interview when
we've been talking about the show. It's because you are
so good at it. And it was great to see you.
Speaker 2 (02:48):
Oh my god.
Speaker 4 (02:48):
I mean hopefully I did. Hopefully it just gets better
because I'm also doing enjoyed. I did Joy Taylor's podcast,
which was really fun.
Speaker 2 (02:55):
She's like a sports girlly.
Speaker 4 (02:57):
I talked to my brother last night, who was like,
you with Joy Taylor, and I was like, oh, yeah,
like I know her, but I wasn't.
Speaker 2 (03:04):
I wasn't aware of how big of a sports girl.
Speaker 4 (03:06):
I mean, she's like a sports battie, Like she's one
of the main women in.
Speaker 2 (03:10):
Sports, like broadcasters. So that was really cool.
Speaker 4 (03:12):
I don't know when that's coming out, but I'm excited
about it. It's it's it's fun. We talked about a
lot of different things. We talked about boundaries, we talked about.
Speaker 2 (03:20):
It's kind of like being queer, not even really sports stuff.
Speaker 4 (03:24):
I was, yeah, but like her show is all about
going deep and personal, like it's living withal too personal,
and so it was.
Speaker 2 (03:32):
It was an interesting time. How was y'all's week How
was y'all's weekend? Not as impressive as yours? That's not true,
I say it was. It was went to a fairy wedding.
Wait yeah, wait, wait, I want.
Speaker 1 (03:43):
To hear Ben's I went to see opening night of
my Son's a Queer.
Speaker 2 (03:48):
But What Can You Do?
Speaker 1 (03:49):
Which is this incredible show written and starring Rog Madge,
who is a West End performer.
Speaker 5 (03:56):
Wanted to be a star, but not just any star,
a princess. So Rob decided to create the greatest show
of all time but the Disney a ring.
Speaker 2 (04:06):
We're not allowed to say the d World.
Speaker 1 (04:08):
The show is supposed to be on Broadway, and what
happened is that it never opened. And it was really, really,
really tough because it was this amazing, super successful show.
But who's going to invest in a bald, white British,
you know, thirty year old to do their own solo
show on Broadway it just didn't come together.
Speaker 2 (04:28):
And it's still May, and I have hope for it.
Speaker 1 (04:30):
But first of all, it was really exciting to be invited,
and I was texting Ryan, I was like, I think
this show is like kind of moving our stature up
a little bit. Because they brought me in like the
side entrance. They had me sitting in front, like Plasma
was behind me, these like Tony Award winning stars.
Speaker 3 (04:46):
No, girl, that's not bringing your statue up. They just
they just demoted you. No I Plasma.
Speaker 1 (04:52):
I'm saying I was sitting a couple of rows before.
Plasma's a very famous musical guest.
Speaker 2 (04:57):
I say, Ben, you are officially gay mists. I'm Gamis.
That's what's happening.
Speaker 1 (05:02):
And this has been my dream, right, I don't even
need to be famous, but like to be gamis to
be part of the gay illuminati. And as we're seeing
the erasure of queer media, there's less than less spaces
like this, and so when we go to these spaces,
so many people came up to me and they're like
quoting the show and I'm like, oh, that's episode two,
Like you're like, you're really actually or people were quoting
(05:23):
the episode that had just come out on Friday, and
I was like, oh, wow, this is actually doing something.
This show was so incredible. Congratulations to Rod. We need
more queer shows. We need more opportunities for people to
tell their stories, and that's what solo shows really do.
And so to see this show where they talk about
like growing up, there's all this old clips from when
(05:45):
they were a kid, and you just see that they
always knew that they were a star and the world
didn't know, and so they created the space to show
the world and it was so beautiful.
Speaker 3 (05:55):
That's the issue with queer people. We all know we're stars.
Speaker 2 (05:59):
We all know.
Speaker 3 (06:01):
How can you be like that this fabulous like popping
out and I have to be told like, oh no no,
you're actually doing things backwards and you're like no, no, no,
people just need to catch up.
Speaker 2 (06:11):
It was an alter ego berth out of trauma.
Speaker 3 (06:14):
Yeah, Like we literally we all know where stars, to
the point where sometimes even when we shouldn't be stars,
we're stars.
Speaker 2 (06:21):
I will have to.
Speaker 4 (06:22):
Say I think I may need to move because I
was on the elevator and this woman is so sweet
and I don't know she's listening, but one of my neighbors
was like, oh my god, I was on a drag
race subreddit and I saw that you are gamests and
I was kind of like, huh.
Speaker 2 (06:37):
I saw you had a podcast.
Speaker 4 (06:39):
I was like what yeah, And then Ibdi was plotting,
like okay, so I need to move because why there's
just way too many people in this building that I know.
And then two not being on the subreddit and seeing
that we have high key. Now it's just so interesting,
like as we're growing this thing and people are actually listening,
there's a moment that I feel like, Edie, you've probably
(07:00):
gotten very used to around like trying to set your boundaries,
and I just can't stop thinking about the Doja Cats
the fan situation, Like, y'all, it has been some drama,
like and it all started out at a paper magazine
party at The Eagle with Mariah Carey randomly popping up
and Doja Cat was.
Speaker 3 (07:17):
There, like the Eagle, the Eagle in what city?
Speaker 2 (07:22):
I'm curious? In La? In La? Okay? Yeah, yeah, they
were having their pride party. He was like, I know it,
well I did.
Speaker 4 (07:29):
But yeah, so there's been all this drama around obviously,
like Dojah Cat in her respond to this fan who
everybody seems very drunk. And this TikTok video that when viral,
this fan gave her his shirts and he was kind
of all over her.
Speaker 2 (07:42):
I'm about to give my shirt to Jojia Kak because
she's the Icony girl.
Speaker 4 (07:45):
Like Joja was being very sweet, and it seemed like
every party in the video was very kind of like
into this vibe plot twist. Dojah cat tweets and says,
you know, I threw the shirt that this fan gave
away from me and she felt quite uncomfortable must Yah
(08:06):
shirt and she was not actually Philly. She's like, just
because I smile at you doesn't mean I fuck with you.
And it created this whole discourse around okay boundaries, her
setting the boundaries. This fan kind of was whose fault
is it? In this moment, people are blaming Dojah to
be quite honest, because they're like, oh, you tweeted this
and now you're seeking all your fans on this random person.
Speaker 1 (08:29):
What do we think I hate the well because we
need to know first of all, we need to know
the Doja history, because this is not the first time
that Doja has turned on her fans. She lost five
hundred thousand Instagram followers because of it in the.
Speaker 2 (08:42):
Past, trying on her friends. But here's the thing.
Speaker 3 (08:44):
You cannot turn on your fans, bitch. You cannot turn
on people that you yere. She literally says, I hate you,
I hate my fan. Yes, but that's the thing is
turning on your fans implies that she's somehow ever, actually
genuinely loved her fans.
Speaker 2 (09:01):
And that's why this situation pisses me off, because.
Speaker 3 (09:03):
What really happened is the parisocialness of this relationship got exposed.
That's sure don't like No, no, no, no, no no, that's
what people don't like. People don't like that celebrities are
paid and make our entire livelihoods by pretending for people
by being Yes, I am your rag doll. Yes, let's
(09:24):
take a picture. Oh, you've got me in this uncomfortable corner.
Let's giggle about it. Those people also pay your bills. Yes,
those people pay your bills. But at what point do
you get to lose your humanity?
Speaker 1 (09:36):
And let me let me make a point real quick,
because I actually hate fandoms. I hate worth of this?
Where the butterflies? Where the kittens? Worth of this? And
that I hate fantoms. I've never been a part of it,
but this specific incident is tough because if you watch
the video, anyone would think like they're just not uncomfortable
at all. And this is where the conversation about boundary.
Speaker 2 (09:55):
I never faked being uncomfortable in a situation corn if
that's heard.
Speaker 1 (09:59):
The thing is like boundaries are set by the person
setting the boundaries. You can't expect someone to know your boundaries.
You can say, oh, hey, honey, sorry I don't touch you,
but you can't expect someone when you're smiling and saying
this is great to somehow not know it enough that
you can then shit talk them. And then when you
listen to the video of the person and the context
before the conversation, she's.
Speaker 2 (10:19):
The one at this event.
Speaker 3 (10:20):
I was being so nice and she said she pointed
out my shirts and I said, oh, I release.
Speaker 2 (10:23):
This T shirt. Blah blah blah. I love to give
you one. She said I'd want one right now, and
I said, oh, I could give this one to you.
She said, no way, You're not gonna give this to me.
And that's when the video started. She's saying, oh I
want this shirt.
Speaker 1 (10:32):
Oh great, and never she could have just let it go,
first of all, but second of all, like you set
boundaries if you don't want someone touching you say that period, How.
Speaker 2 (10:40):
Well did that work for me? Man? How well did
that work for me?
Speaker 3 (10:43):
Like when I literally at the beginning of my fame
that we're now all starting new experience, I guess in
new ways. When I was like, hey, you guys, I
just finished a fucking show, don't take pictures with me,
I was piled on so quickly that alumni of the franchise,
we're piling on, And well, I'm not.
Speaker 2 (11:03):
Like this, bitch, all take pictures.
Speaker 3 (11:05):
When chapel Rone started setting boundaries, people started fucking trying
to cancel her for being a toxic little brat.
Speaker 2 (11:13):
So I don't I let you finish your part? Finish.
I like to finish finish.
Speaker 3 (11:19):
The point is that we as a culture create monsters.
That is exactly what this parasocial relationship is. Is us
pouring our feelings into somebody who literally has absolutely.
Speaker 2 (11:32):
Zero fucking responsibility to pay them back.
Speaker 3 (11:34):
And it is nice, Okay, it is nice as a
fan to feel appreciated, But bitch, Beyonce does appreciate you
in two ways. She appreciates you in the way that
it feels so good to know that your story is
impacting somebody, that you're helping someone, that they're helping you,
that we are all connected.
Speaker 2 (11:51):
That's the same feeling you get on Mollie. And then
it feels good to know that your bills are paid.
Speaker 4 (11:56):
Yeah, all right, let me let me jump in really quick,
because I think there's a moment where I sit in
the middle of you both, right. I think I see
where Ben is coming from from a fan perspective, but
ultimately I do agree about the levels of parasocial relationship.
And I think if we really think about Dojah's trajectory
(12:16):
since the beginning, she's always been a rogue artist. She's
always been someone that has never, like you know, held
her her mouth like. She's always kind of said what
she's thinking, and also has kind of really from the beginning,
has tried to establish like, Hey, all of this stuff
that stand culture creates is not how I'm maneuvering in
(12:36):
this space. She's always been very clear about that. And
what I witness in that moment is someone coming like
a little may be intoxicated from a party, and she
didn't really have security around her, and cameras are everywhere.
This camera probably was pulled out when they saw her.
When this guy who apparently there's been a lot of
videos around him kind of being this person that pops
(12:58):
up around selectes and kind of does it where he's
either giving out jewelry or he's like there's a crazy
pizza delivery story about how he's stuck in the gates
of Kylie Jenner's house, and so like, this guy doesn't
really know boundaries, And it's really interesting to me when
we don't have the ability to see that video and
(13:19):
see that someone is just trying to like maneuver a
drunk night and maybe isn't very like able to set
their boundaries, but they're trying to kind of get through
this low key, uncomfortable situation while also being like, you know, nice,
because any if she would have looked out, y'all would
have dragged her for that as well.
Speaker 2 (13:38):
But what about what happened next?
Speaker 1 (13:40):
So say that's all find and good, then why use
your platform to go after someone in such a harmful way.
That's where we have to think about the response. I
don't think it's not harmful. It's not harmful. I don't
know if you've ever you have been actually so you
do know. Yes, I have also been attacked on the
internet many, many, many times.
Speaker 3 (13:58):
In an attack on the internet is not an attack
in real life.
Speaker 4 (14:01):
But okay, well, I feel like it's a little bit
of a stress.
Speaker 2 (14:05):
The internet is in real life.
Speaker 1 (14:06):
The Internet is real life first of all, because it
still hurts when you have thousands of people calling you
one thing or the other. All I'm saying is I
agree that situation just didn't have to go like that
for multiple reasons. I don't think anyone but he's milking it.
So it's kind of like he's enjoying the response.
Speaker 4 (14:22):
So it's like, I don't, I don't how am I
supposed to be feeling bad for right now?
Speaker 1 (14:25):
That's my point on both sides is like the thing
about celebrity, it is a privilege and it does come
with perks, you know what I mean, You've had.
Speaker 4 (14:33):
Just because people pay your bills does not mean that
you don't deserve like humanity and don't deserve to be
like treat boundary.
Speaker 2 (14:40):
Don't they deserve kindness? She said, And I think she
has her kindness. I don't think those has been kind
to her fans.
Speaker 3 (14:46):
Okay, she was presenting him with kindness in the moment
trapped there, Ben, that was the number of fucking prides
I've been to where my security just hasn't dealt with
a real girl of my size.
Speaker 2 (14:58):
So they let me get ma by people who are like, oh.
Speaker 3 (15:01):
Yeah, and then also my mother's here and she's dying
of cancer and make a video and let me like
suck up your time and oh my god, I'm gonna
just rub my sweat on you. Like our job is
to put on the fucking smile, And what Dojakat has
consistently done has been like, yeah, that smile comes off.
So while it was maybe mean of her too, afterwards
(15:23):
be like, dude, this is some bullshit.
Speaker 2 (15:25):
It was it was me, it was mean.
Speaker 4 (15:26):
I think we can say that it wasn't kind, It
wasn't kind, It was not kind. But I think a
lot of people forget that we all, individually as humans
have experienced moments where we're not kind. Sure, and I
think we often put especially when it comes to the
intersection of being a black woman in this space, I
think we put a lot of like expectations on someone
on how they should like be and show up, especially
(15:47):
if you're a star, especially if you're a woman, especially
if you're a black woman. And for me, the response
around dojacat has been very interesting to see. And I've
also been low key like have we lost the plot here?
We like, are we not able to talk about? Yeah,
her decision to tweet that was wrong. But then also this,
this fan, this parasocial relationship that fans think they have
(16:09):
with you is actually harmful because now even if you
do create a moment where you're trying to set boundaries
for yourself, you're you might be ripped to shreds for it.
Speaker 2 (16:18):
And so it's a little wonky.
Speaker 1 (16:19):
I don't know, And I'll say this, it's like billionaires. Okay,
celebrities shouldn't exist. Because it's just like billionaire shouldn't exist.
Celebrities are a construct created in society to create hierarchies
and aspirations that are all rooted and commodifying ourselves as individuals. Now,
with social media, every single person is a business. Every
single person is an influencer. That means every single person
(16:42):
aspires to be that person. So they're in space and
they feel equal. Now because we're all creators, we're just
one viral video away from being Dosha cat la la
la la la. I'm famous now, but that.
Speaker 4 (16:54):
If you're not famous, Ben, You're not gonna be able
to get to the side entrance of the business exactly.
Speaker 1 (16:59):
And that's exactly And look, that was my dream all
my life, right Like I wanted that power and proximity.
I absolutely did, because I grew up on the other extreme.
But I'm saying that we also have to acknowledge our
roles in it. That's all I'm saying. I don't think
that Dosha should be attacked on the internet, but that's
the Internet. What I think is, like, we have to
(17:20):
realize we have a lot of privilege and benefit that
comes with the visibility. And all I'm saying is we
should pick our battles that we go to publicly against
real people who might not have the resource too.
Speaker 2 (17:32):
I mean that fan is fake as fuck.
Speaker 3 (17:34):
The fact that he is, He's literally milking it and
trying to sell the experience.
Speaker 2 (17:40):
Just proves what this is.
Speaker 3 (17:42):
Like, Yes, we should all try and be better people,
but when somebody is literally trying to use you, like,
that's what actually makes me it's transactional. Well but yeah,
but that's the thing is it's completely transactional. You can't
be like it's wrong for her to hurt somebody who's
trying to make money of her. And the reason why
I'm saying this and maybe so impassioned is over the
(18:03):
weekend where I was at a fairy wedding and it
was lovely full circle, we got to it.
Speaker 2 (18:08):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (18:08):
I opened up a DM on Instagram that was buried
in like the message requests and read back to the
history the beginning of this history where a queer fan
of mine, a business owner I guess, had been communicating
with one of my friends and sent them a box
of shirts as a gift to give me, and it
said in the original message like no strings attached. These
(18:31):
are just like from me to you. I appreciate what
you've done for the community. And I remember my friend
giving me those shirts and being like it'd be cool
if you could tag them, and me honestly not wearing
those shirts or thinking about them for like half a year,
and then I'm checking the dms and it's like, Hey,
just wondering if you got the shirts. Hey, so your
(18:52):
friend said you got the shirts, so are you ever
going to post about them? To what they had finally messaged,
which was, you know, it is so rude of you
to like manipulate somebody within your community who spent X
amount of money on a gift for you. And I'm
not even asking for like a repost, but your acknowledgment
would have been nice. Since we are a family that's parasocial.
Speaker 2 (19:15):
See, there's no empathy.
Speaker 4 (19:16):
Everyone just automatically assumes you're the You're the villain in
everyone's store, like and that's someone so.
Speaker 2 (19:21):
It's one sided, but the one sided store.
Speaker 3 (19:23):
But that's what I'm saying is that's what parasocial means,
and that's what celebrity in this time means. Means you
are open to whatever criticism from everyone all the time
to play whatever character they need at any given moment.
It's not just a T shirt at a musts T
shirt at an after party. It's at your grandma's funeral,
(19:44):
It's it's at a friend's wedding out in the woods
in the middle of fucking New Hampshire somewhere, and somebody
seeing something in you and being like, oh my.
Speaker 2 (19:53):
God, I cannot believe you're here.
Speaker 3 (19:56):
You have to stop whatever like character you were trying
to play for this wedding to be EVI oddly because
that means something to me. And so yes, it is
good when you're a good person and you go the
extra mile. But I also think we need to stop
trying to hold people so accountable for letting off steam
and completely harmless ways.
Speaker 4 (20:15):
I know because you were able to do it in private,
but like when someone has a platform and someone is
as big like I've been so close to like celebrity,
especially like in a YouTube creator where there's a creator
that who shall remain nameless, that I was a part
of their world for a little bit, and I remember
seeing them in their home in Calabasas afraid to leave
(20:36):
or even go to the mall because they were afraid
that people anytime they would go, there would be cameras
and people looking and all the things, and just.
Speaker 2 (20:44):
So they had to stay in their home in Calabasas.
Speaker 4 (20:46):
I know, it's like it's worse, It's so worse. No,
but it's it's one of those things where I'm like,
there is a level of fame where it feels like
it turns into prison. Yeah that's me saying that, And
I think I often think, yeah, it is something that
we people sign up for when they are like their creator,
they're an artist, and they start to get big and
all this kind of new support comes in.
Speaker 2 (21:08):
But I don't know.
Speaker 4 (21:09):
I just feel like sometimes we lose empathy, We lose
that thing that we constantly are asking for and we
don't give it to others.
Speaker 2 (21:16):
In both directions.
Speaker 4 (21:17):
Yeah, yeah, this doja cat moment is crazy. Let us
know what your thoughts are. Hit us up at high
Key here. We're always down for y'all to join the conversation.
But I think it's time for a little bit of
a break. We should be getting into more big idea conversations.
Speaker 1 (21:32):
Yes, when we come back, we're talking about everyone's you know,
most favorite, least complicated holiday, Father's Dayther'sday, Daddy. We'll see
you right after the break, all right, heighty welcome back. Yeah,
before we jump back in, we have a quick request.
If you are high key love in the show, then
(21:54):
take a second to follow or subscribe so you never
miss an episode.
Speaker 3 (21:58):
And while you're at it, rate us us a review
and tell your friends.
Speaker 2 (22:02):
Yeah, it really helps us to pay our bills.
Speaker 4 (22:04):
Hik you no, for sure, And honestly, if you love
us even more and you want to keep the high
Key Key going. Make sure you follow us on Instagram
and TikTok at high Key here, and of course on
our Patreon, where you are not going to want to
miss any of the Juicy Juicy team.
Speaker 2 (22:19):
Thanks for the love, Weirdos.
Speaker 4 (22:21):
Back to the show, hik you okay, so welcome back everybody.
It is time for the big Idea portion of the show,
which today I kind of affectually named call us Daddy
Issues or maybe high Key Daddy Issues, because this is
our show, not Alex.
Speaker 1 (22:39):
Yeah, exactly this episode. I think I pitched it in
our editorial meeting. Last week we had Father's Day, and
Father's Day is like a complicated holiday for me. And
I won't say that I was necessarily sad, because I'm
quite indifferent about my own father, but I was just
like thinking more about the day.
Speaker 2 (22:59):
Got you hate him?
Speaker 1 (23:00):
I mean, I yeah, I don't even hate him. I
just don't care enough to hate him, you.
Speaker 6 (23:05):
Know, you know what I mean?
Speaker 1 (23:06):
I mean, I guess I could share my kind of stories.
My dad was kind of in and out of my life,
and I remember in second grade he was supposed to
come home for Christmas and he had called us and
he said, oh, I got your PlayStation two. We have
all these things. I'll be home soon. And Christmas Day
came around, he wasn't there. And then the next day
and the next day at whatever. He was always kind
of flaky. He didn't ever show up, which wasn't a
(23:29):
huge surprise, and then he kind of disappeared for like
a decade, okay, and then showed back up in my
life when I was in middle school, eighth grade, worst
time of my life, right after my grandmother had died,
and was like, I'm so sorry, basically told this whole
story about how he was holding someone's coke and had
to run away to Mexico. It's quite a story, but
(23:50):
I just like I didn't have my father in my
life through so much hardship, through poverty, through all of
these things. And I was thinking about it on Father's
Day because I was just kind of upset around this
idea of like, man, my life has been hard and
it would have been a lot easier, like had I
had this parent in my life, and like I want
to be a father soon, and it it was just
(24:12):
a complicated day. So I guess I'll start by asking
what is Father's Day like for you, what is your
own relationship with your father?
Speaker 2 (24:20):
Like I didn't even realize it was Father's Day.
Speaker 4 (24:23):
Like I didn't realize it was father Day until my
mom told me because she wanted to check in on
me because my dad died in twenty twenty two. But
he had never really been in my life as a kid.
There's a really interesting story I met him, like when
I was a toddler, when we lived in Illinois still,
but then when we moved to Tennessee, all contact kind
(24:44):
of just like ceased, and I didn't hear from him
again until I was graduating in high school around sixteen,
because I wrote this essay that my English teacher made
us write about defeating your dragon, and my dragon was
basically forget giving my dad for never being in my life.
And my mom, because at that time we shared a laptop,
(25:05):
she thought it was a great idea to.
Speaker 2 (25:07):
Find my dad and send it to him.
Speaker 4 (25:10):
And the next thing I know, and I'm waking up
one morning and I have a voicemail on my cell
phone from my dad being like, hey, son, this is
your dad.
Speaker 2 (25:21):
Call me.
Speaker 4 (25:22):
And I'm just like, now, bitch, what the fuck? So
it took me a minute to call him back. The
next thing I know, my dad is showing up to
my graduation party with my three siblings and his wife.
At the time, they were younger. My siblings are like
late twenties. I would yeah, I'm the oldest out of
(25:43):
all the siblings. There's five of us, but only three
of them that came, And so I was kind of
thrown into this moment of not really knowing how to
deal with this right like I'm I'm like, why am
I Why is this kind of spotlight kind of being
taking for me? And I have so like now be
this big brother to these little siblings, and then like
no talk to my dad, and I just remember being
(26:06):
so awful. Fast forward to my twenty first birthday. My
dad was trying to be back in my life, and
I honestly he wanted to give me money for my
twenty first birthday because he wanted me to have a
good time and I was spending at Atlanta with friends
and he gave me money for that. But to be honest,
like it was off and on, like he always from
my understanding and my point of view, it was like
(26:27):
the grass was always greener on the other side, Like
he had the wife he had the kids and they
were getting all of him. But when I started to
become closer to my siblings as we've gotten older, I
found out it was just as rocky there and it
wasn't actually everything that I thought it was, and they
were actually having their own issues.
Speaker 2 (26:45):
But once he passed, I went to.
Speaker 4 (26:48):
The funeral, and what an interesting experience that was because
I had never met my dad's side of the family,
and I found out that my dad actually was like
listening to my radio show at the time. It was
like talking about me to all of these family members
who knew me, and was actually that graduation moment. My
little brother was like, do you think my brother is gay?
(27:11):
And from what my stepmom would tell me, she said basically, well,
your dad was like, well.
Speaker 2 (27:18):
What does that mean if he's gay? Does it matter?
Speaker 4 (27:20):
Like they had kind of like this conversation around was
like not caring around my sexuality, where on the opposite
side of my mom's side it was completely different. And
so I remember getting the news when he died and
I had this like guttural reaction because I didn't know him.
But I felt like I had so much guilt because
I spent so much of my life resenting him instead
(27:43):
of like maybe leaning in, like holding.
Speaker 3 (27:48):
That space for it and being like, yeah, you know what,
I do get a dad, even though I don't really
see the point of it now for sure. It's kind
of funny because you know, I have also a very
famous fo very game as father, even though he's not gay,
despite my strongest efforts to convert him. But my relationship
with not only him but fatherhood in general is like
(28:11):
way more complex because ultimately, like my mother was my
primary caregiver, and to my dad's credit for somebody who
was also in college halfway across the country, like he
did come back and he did ultimately like make the
choice to try and commit himself to being in my life.
(28:32):
I just think by the time I was really forming memories.
Speaker 2 (28:37):
Like my entire idea of fatherhood.
Speaker 3 (28:41):
Was just completely warped because I had him, and then
I had my stepdad, And some of my earliest memories
are like these two fully grown black men like fighting
each other in broad daylight in the middle of the
street for my affection, So dreams come true.
Speaker 4 (29:00):
He doesn't want you men fighting over That's happened many
times since too.
Speaker 3 (29:03):
Honestly, I know my mom was over there, like, yeah,
I did this.
Speaker 2 (29:08):
But the reason why I.
Speaker 3 (29:09):
Just cut to that so specifically is none of these
people were my mother. My mom was my only sense
of safety and security. And the more I got to
know my stepdad, and the more I got to know
my real dad, and the more I got to know
my granddad, like, the more terrified I became of men,
because they were always the people who were telling me like, Oh, nope,
(29:32):
you shouldn't be playing with dolls. Oh, oh god, you
want to play dress up?
Speaker 6 (29:37):
No?
Speaker 2 (29:38):
Why is he always twirling around? And a lot of
a lot of my.
Speaker 3 (29:42):
Book all about Evuh is actually direct interview with my dad,
And it's interesting hearing his perspective because he echoed the
same thing that my stepdad did when I read my
own book. Finally, and I cried and like confronted him
about the wrecked homophobia I got, and he started breaking
(30:04):
down and crying because he just didn't know how to
raise someone like me.
Speaker 2 (30:08):
He didn't know how to relate, how to protect me.
Speaker 3 (30:12):
And I think in general, there is this issue with
that occurs around fathers, especially fathers in the queer community,
or of people who are in the queer community, and
fathers of color. Like I think it's really I think
it's a lot easier to step away from the responsibilities
(30:33):
of like what you're doing and what you're raising as
a man than it is as somebody who like birthed you.
Speaker 2 (30:40):
And I know not.
Speaker 3 (30:40):
Everybody has their super solid relationship with mom, but it
is like one step harder to carry something inside you
for nine months and then not give a shit about.
Speaker 2 (30:52):
It in the way that the moms do.
Speaker 3 (30:55):
So like growing up, I never I never cared about dads.
In fact, I remember whenever I felt like I was
being mistreated at my dad's, which I wasn't. They were
just making me eat vegetarian food and they wouldn't let
me eat any sugar. I remember I would like call
to my mom and cry and be like I just
(31:15):
want to come home.
Speaker 4 (31:16):
I had a black family that was like I'm telling
you to not you have sugar or meat.
Speaker 2 (31:20):
Wow, that's unheard of, I know.
Speaker 3 (31:22):
I mean it's really well because they're deeply spiritual. Like
I look at my family in two ways, and I
kind of look at my experience of dads in two ways,
which is like white Christian even though that family's black too,
But like white like Southern Baptist Christian family and then
Black Black Power moved to Africa for a decade, like
(31:44):
leader of the Black Panthers family. And I think both
of them did a fantastic job at trying to make
space for somebody who is as weird and different and
complex as as even their relationship to me forced us
to be.
Speaker 2 (31:59):
But it's difficult.
Speaker 1 (32:01):
I have a question I want to kind of talk about,
like what we think it means to be a good
father and what we think like how that relates to masculinity,
because I hear both of y'all giving a lot of
grace to your father's but also taking a lot of
accountability for the actions of grown adults in your life who,
even if they didn't have the resources, could have sought
(32:24):
the resources.
Speaker 2 (32:25):
Like that's what's hard.
Speaker 1 (32:25):
Like Ryan, I hear you talk about like, oh, I
had this resentment in this, but like I think that
was equal and earned. Like it's nice he was being
all nice and not homophobic talking to your siblings, but
like it's a.
Speaker 4 (32:37):
Little bit more complicated than that. I think the contense
version just for time, No.
Speaker 1 (32:42):
Sure, but like do you know what I mean? Like
I'm just like wondering about the grace piece, like.
Speaker 4 (32:46):
Yeah, I mean after a while, though, doesn't it become
exhausting holding onto shit.
Speaker 2 (32:52):
Like after a while, like I've had.
Speaker 4 (32:54):
That's something I've had to learn with like my relationship
with my mom, because if I'm being honest, like father
Day normally was another Mother's Day where I'm getting up
in front of the church for you know, the kid
that has the single mothers or like say my dad
is my mom, you know, like that that was just
always kind of what it was like. And I think
I did have resentment towards that, but it was more
(33:17):
so it was more so like resentment for not even resentment.
It was more so like I wondered what life would
have been like if my mom's worries about having a
male father figure was like kind of like subsided because
she was so busy trying to raise me and trying
(33:37):
to like palm me off to like deacons and ministers
at our church because she wanted me to be around
men and.
Speaker 2 (33:43):
Kind of learn what it meant to be a boy.
Speaker 4 (33:45):
That if my dad was in my life and he
was giving her a different perspective and not like being
homophobic or what all the things I wouldn't have kind
of had this resentment towards masculinity in the ways that
I do of like trying to completely avoid it, or
if I'm put in a souper, were in a space
where like masculinity as present.
Speaker 2 (34:03):
I'm kind of like getting theyck, oh yeah.
Speaker 4 (34:05):
That's kind of like my brain around it, Like because
I told him all these things, I've had the conversation
and after a.
Speaker 2 (34:10):
While, like you know, it is what it is, like.
Speaker 4 (34:14):
I can't I can't hold I just I don't feel
like holding on to it anymore. You got closure, Yeah,
I kind of got I got closure after his funeral
and being able to like meet my dad's family, who
I thought I was introducing myself to you for the first.
Speaker 2 (34:31):
Time, but no, they knew who I was.
Speaker 4 (34:34):
And yes he had he could have actually actively like
introduced me or been in part of my life if
he wanted to. But here in my siblings side of
the things, he was dealing with his own kind of
like life of being like he he didn't really know how.
Speaker 2 (34:45):
To balance being for the streets and being a.
Speaker 4 (34:48):
Father man like a husband and a father, like he
didn't really know how to balance that and that was
his own thing. And I think for me as an adult,
I'm really in this time where I'm just like viewing
my parents as like humans and just like understanding like, oh,
this is further impacting my decision on if I really
want to be a parent what the fuck that means.
Speaker 2 (35:10):
Moving forward?
Speaker 4 (35:11):
So I don't know, like I'm offering grace, but also
I'm trying not.
Speaker 2 (35:16):
To carry that shit.
Speaker 3 (35:18):
I think that's the biggest thing is despite all the
love I was surrounded with, I still had a lot
of the same queer trauma being like called nicknames and
picked on by my.
Speaker 2 (35:28):
Father figures, both of them, all of them.
Speaker 3 (35:31):
Every father figure in my life, even if it was
like joyfully or whatever othered me for being queer. And
I felt like as soon as I was kicked out
of my house for being a delinquent and deviant and
other perceived ways, I built a grudge against my family.
Like I did have it hard growing up. It could
have been harder in different ways, it could have been
(35:53):
lighter in different ways. But I needed the space of
for me a decade to be angry and be paid
and see what I could make for myself, like build
queer family that taught me so much about how I
relate to my own family, to the point where, like now,
when I see them, I'm hit with a sense of
like melancholia about knowing that they tried their best given
(36:19):
the circumstances, and sometimes it wasn't good enough, and sometimes
it still won't be good enough, and sometimes I'm still
going to do the same things.
Speaker 2 (36:27):
Have you forgiven your dad been?
Speaker 1 (36:28):
Like?
Speaker 4 (36:28):
Have you forgiven that? Like that the relationship that could
have been? Or are you do you still find yourself?
I mean maybe this whole conversation answers that, but have
I what are your feelings right now when you think
about your dad?
Speaker 1 (36:46):
I guess I'm still dealing with the ramifications of his actions,
and so it's hard to forgive when it still feels
active and like I wish my dad was dead.
Speaker 2 (36:59):
Oh wow, Like I think.
Speaker 1 (37:04):
I think that might be easier than like having someone
out in the world actively not choosing you, you know.
And I think that has created a dynamic in my
life where I just want to be chosen. I just
want to be picked. I just want to be loved,
you know. Yeah, And so for me, it's hard. I'm
(37:27):
not angry at him. I really am indifferent, like I
really am when it comes to him. I don't know him.
If he did die, it wouldn't matter to me besides
the fact that the finality that at least like he's
no longer actively choosing to not have this incredible person
in his life that is me, that is my brother.
And so I guess what's hard is like I take
(37:50):
him at his fullness. I take him as a human.
But he was a grown ass adult in his thirties
when he chose to have a child. Well I wasn't.
I didn't choose to be born. And while he was
off having fun, we were, you know, barely scraping by,
just barely scraping by. And so I was also that
(38:12):
kid who was like my mom was my dad because
she was, but my mom also struggled to be my mom,
you know. Yeah, And so I was my father, and
so I was my parent, and so I have to
continue to be. And what I'm really mourning more than
anything is like competent parents as an adult, where it's
(38:32):
just like I'm going through something and I have someone
I can go to where like I actually respect what
I'm getting back instead of having to be that for them.
So no, I don't think I have forgiven him, and
I don't think I will. I've let go for me,
but I've not forgiven him because I don't forgive him,
(38:56):
like like that's fine. I don't currently have forgiveness in
my heart for him.
Speaker 4 (39:01):
And it's so valid that I think everything that you
just expressed is such a valid way of feeling because
for so long I also felt that same thing.
Speaker 2 (39:12):
But I think it's so interesting how.
Speaker 4 (39:16):
I feel like a lot of the not some of
the sentiment that you expressed for your dad.
Speaker 2 (39:21):
I kind of slung it over to my mom in
a lot of ways. And I love my mom. I
think we're in a better place.
Speaker 4 (39:26):
But it's so interesting when you're really trying to actively
kind of like clean the slate and allow yourself to
like move forwards for you and to know that you're
worth it and you're worthy of the love and being
chosen and all the things. It's it's really really hard
(39:46):
when those days come around and you're reminded of like the.
Speaker 1 (39:49):
Lack, and it makes me think about like what I
want to be And like Brian, you had asked us
off camera like kind of like who are the dad?
It's our TV dads that we thought about and it's
so silly and I hate it's culture daddies.
Speaker 2 (40:05):
Yeah, like who are your who are your favorite dads?
Like what makes a good dad to you?
Speaker 1 (40:10):
Well, it's so annoying, but mine was Bill Cosby and
The Cosby Show.
Speaker 6 (40:14):
Look, I don't think it's necessary for you to risk
life and limb to prove something to your mother and
me when we've said to you, we believe you and
we love you.
Speaker 2 (40:26):
Oh same. I love that show and it sucks in
an age will age like Milk.
Speaker 1 (40:31):
I love that show or even you know Uncle Phil
and in the Fresh Prince of bel Air.
Speaker 2 (40:36):
You have no idea what my first memory of you is.
Speaker 4 (40:40):
I remember a kid loaded with all the potential in
the world.
Speaker 2 (40:45):
Now I see a person on the verge of realizing
their potential.
Speaker 1 (40:49):
Like these like black men who like had it together
and who weren't always perfect, but like you know, loosened
their their tightness because I'm wound up and tight and like,
I know, I want my kid to be a scholar,
but they might be a garbage person both as a
person and in profession, and like I would have to
love them either way. Like, but they taught life lessons
(41:10):
and they just were fun and they had dinner at
the table together, Like I wanted that quintessential family life.
And when I saw black families that looked like that,
I just didn't know a lot of black families that
looked like that. And so that, yeah, Bill Cosby, piece
of fucking shit.
Speaker 2 (41:26):
That was gonna be that was gonna be mine. You're not.
But it sucks because TV dads are fun.
Speaker 4 (41:32):
But also when you really think about it, like when
it comes from a cultural perspective, like TV dads often were.
Speaker 2 (41:37):
Like the dumb ones, Like they were kind of like
they take, like.
Speaker 4 (41:41):
They weren't really active, and they came in for like
the really feel good dad moments, but like they really
didn't show up, and it was really kind of like
the woman or the mom running the household. And so
I was like, how about we make it gay and
just be like, who are your favorite daddies in general?
Speaker 3 (41:55):
Okay, well yeah, cause I was gonna say, I like,
actually rather do that.
Speaker 2 (41:58):
It's a longer list, and straightman do not deserve to
be praised on this.
Speaker 3 (42:03):
Also, I didn't fuck with any of those daddies, just
to like get this out out of my system, Like
even Bill Cosby, I did not like men. I did
not like men and what they bring to relationships, especially
in the media, being like oh beer, oh the hawk girl,
Oh my wife, who I, for some reason don't deserve
(42:23):
at all.
Speaker 2 (42:24):
Like that was always a note for me.
Speaker 3 (42:26):
The dad I wanted growing up was the guy who
was living next door, who we were friends with, his kids,
and he kind of watched over all the neighborhood kids
even after his wife left him. He was he was there,
and he was compassionate and like, he liked fun. He
put fun more highly than rules or grades or being
(42:50):
a good man or like he never discouraged his kids
or me from having emotions or expressing myself or being different.
Speaker 2 (42:58):
He rollerbladed and he were tied. I and he actually
he died last.
Speaker 3 (43:03):
Year, and I came to terms with a lot of
what I guess I'm seeking in my partners and what
I'm seeking in myself now because my good dad was
just some guy who cared so much about trying to
be good to kids that he wasn't afraid if it
was feminine weird, like ugly strange. This was obviously before
(43:28):
every gay guy was called a groomer and he definitely
was gay coded even though he was straight. So, you know,
shout out to Brian wherever you are in the universe, like,
thank you for at least giving me something to aspire
to if I wanted to raise kids.
Speaker 2 (43:43):
And he's dead, so we don't have to bleep his name.
Speaker 3 (43:47):
His name is Brian. I don't remember there. I do
remember their last name. I'm not gonna say it.
Speaker 2 (43:52):
Yeah, can I ask?
Speaker 1 (43:54):
Can we just like, because I know we're running out
of time, I really want to know if you all
want to be parents, because I have no idea.
Speaker 2 (43:59):
I actually don't know the answer to this question. I
say it's I'm like in the middle.
Speaker 4 (44:04):
I feel like if I find the right person for sure,
but also I also see a world where I don't
have parents, and I actually want to.
Speaker 2 (44:13):
I have so many, like my siblings have.
Speaker 4 (44:15):
One of my siblings has kids, and I kind of
want to start leading into like nieces and nephews and
being like the gun Cale and like my best friend
she has a daughter whose birthday is coming up that
I was like, I visited when I was in New York,
and I was like, I actually really want to like
be in this little girl's life and maybe have kids
(44:37):
do that lens.
Speaker 2 (44:37):
So it's like I'm kind of I've.
Speaker 4 (44:38):
Been thinking about it more and more because there's some
moments where I'm like, I'm not necessarily willing to stop
the train on the tracks when it comes to like
sacrificing a lot of the things that comes with parenthood.
Speaker 2 (44:50):
And I know some parents are.
Speaker 4 (44:51):
Like, you don't have to sacrifice anything, But if I
have like an important gig or something, I don't know
if I'm going to sacrifice it to go to the kids' school,
you know, well for the soccer game or the theater thing.
Speaker 2 (45:02):
Like I just don't know.
Speaker 4 (45:03):
Like I'm like right now, I'm in the mindset that
I would not, but I do see myself one day
possibly having kids if I meet the right person, I'm
so down for.
Speaker 2 (45:12):
I don't know if I would be a good parent,
but I'm into it.
Speaker 5 (45:15):
See.
Speaker 3 (45:15):
Oh, that last part I think is the hottest thing
I've ever heard about parenting is like I think I
could be a good parent or no, actually that's a lie.
Speaker 2 (45:25):
I just I don't have the kindness.
Speaker 3 (45:27):
I don't have like all that grace and generosity and
warmth and like patience really for children that I was
talking about with my neighbor, I don't have it, and
I always had this fantasy of having kids with the
right person, the person who did have that. But I
think that's the issue with a lot of people's idea
(45:48):
of parenting, because you're still gonna have to be in
there too. You're gonna have to figure out how you
guys work together, what trauma you're willingly gonna pass down,
and ultimately, if you're willing to like make the sacrifices
of being something that literally only exists, to give your
life over to that tiny little creature that's gonna suck
(46:10):
it all and maybe someday like own a bank or
whatever parents want. I have a dog too, so it's
kind of like I'm already parenting her.
Speaker 1 (46:17):
I can't have a kid and a dog. And you
forgot it was Father's Day? Did you not get anything.
Speaker 4 (46:23):
Medicine right now that I got to give her jobs
for I am a full mother that works two jobs
and loves their kids.
Speaker 2 (46:29):
It never stops with gentle hands in the heart of
a fatter So I loved Reba's my dad. The way
I see it, missus h is a way better dad.
Than you. Come on, dad, behind son, what about you?
Speaker 1 (46:44):
Ben, I'm curious. I definitely want kids. I definitely want kids.
Today's my nine year anniversary, which in gay is like,
you know, fifty years insane.
Speaker 2 (46:54):
So it's about time the anniversary. Thank you.
Speaker 1 (46:57):
I've always known I wanted to have kids. I've always
known since I was very young. I have twenty two
first cousins on my mom's side, big, big, big Italian families.
It's crazy, it's wild, and I was there for the
birth of so many of them. And I, you know,
you always want to do better, and I know that
I won't be perfect this trauma. No, I'm gonna you know,
I'm not going to be perfect as a parent. But
(47:19):
I think like our job as parents is to train
kids to be adults. And I see so many people
who these days are just like letting their kids do anything.
They take it for granted for us to have a child,
like I believe in adoption, but it's hard for queer
people to have kids. I would love to have a
baby to start, like, I would really love to have
like a little newborn baby.
Speaker 2 (47:39):
That's fifty thousand dollars right off the top.
Speaker 1 (47:42):
If it's not you know, if it's not a surrogate,
if that's just a domestic adoption, and so like, fatherhood
has been quite inaccessible to me. And I love a
number of foster kids that are in my life through
my partner, and we love them, but I they're moms.
I think all the time like they some of these
kids could be taken out of their home. I'm like,
(48:02):
you're gonna have to kill me. You want to take
my kid out my home who's been there for years
and years and years. So yes, I want to be
your father. I want to try to do a better
job than the job that was done for me. And ultimately,
I think that it makes life worth living. Like I
think that my biggest mistake in life was thinking in
life was all about me and I am actually a
(48:24):
tiny piece of this world. I don't matter as one thing.
I matter by the impact that I can make in multiples,
and that means I have to be giving out into
the world. And I think creating a little creature to
go and multiply that impact is a special gift.
Speaker 3 (48:39):
Oh, Ben, your hormones they're stronger than your logic.
Speaker 2 (48:42):
They got you, I mean.
Speaker 4 (48:44):
But also I think we can lead the next generations
being great qu.
Speaker 2 (48:48):
Uncles, which queer uncles, yes, and who does it?
Speaker 4 (48:51):
I would love to be the cool you know uncle
that comes in and like picks you up from a
party because you're too afraid to call your parents because
you are little wasted, you know what I mean. Like
I want to be that safe space where we can
go talk and I can take a shop and I'll
do all the things.
Speaker 1 (49:07):
You know, like have real conversation, because it takes a village,
I does.
Speaker 2 (49:11):
You have to be a part of the village is important.
Speaker 1 (49:13):
I to these these fox kids call me Uncle Ben,
and they love me, and they love to see me,
and they run up when I'm there, and they you know,
every once in a while they'll open up, and you know,
one of the older boys will sometimes will be like,
you know, I miss my dad, he said to me
randomly one day. And his dad was heavily abusive to him.
And it's hard for me to think about him being
literally permanently blind because of the abuse of his father
(49:37):
and still saying I missed my father, and it's like wow,
like we to open up to me was a level
of trust, like to me being a father and basically
masculinity that isn't toxic, is about love and strength and
safety and security. And I see men this in cell
culture that's coming up, where like Eve has said in
the past, men see the world through other men's eyes,
(50:00):
and it's become this anti woman thing, like we hate women,
we hate femininity, and I think like the perfect masculine
person is a person who also is feminine as well.
Like that's why I love queernesses and identity and where
when I think of my masculinity, it's like through a
queer lens. Is like it's about love and strength and
safety insecurity and undoing that nasty lens and not looking
(50:23):
at the world through the eyes of men, because unfortunately,
historically that has been destruction and violence and hatred.
Speaker 2 (50:29):
And this has been really helpful guys.
Speaker 1 (50:31):
You know, I obviously I'm always gonna look for a
chance to trauma dum.
Speaker 2 (50:34):
No, but thank you for sharing. I'm glad you did.
Speaker 3 (50:37):
I also just think it's a lot of the conversation
that is subtextually happening right now. You know, a lot
of the support for our current president is from young
straight males who feel like they they've gotten crushed down,
that there's no space for them, that people aren't thinking
(50:57):
about them.
Speaker 2 (50:58):
And I know, I know that.
Speaker 3 (51:00):
They have literally had all of history to work with.
But we also can't completely disenfranchise somebody just because they
have a history of being at the top, especially if
these kids don't get to live that history. My uncle
is like a political activist, a life coach.
Speaker 2 (51:18):
Shout out h soul.
Speaker 3 (51:19):
He's doing a whole series speaking about masculinity and femininity
and how both presences need to exist within every parent,
specifically to foster the idea for your child that it
is good to be a strong man, and it is
good to be a strong woman, and it is good
to be a strong I'm going to fight him on
(51:41):
the day them thing eventually, but be a.
Speaker 1 (51:44):
Good person, be a strong person. Yeah, embrace the best
of both worlds.
Speaker 3 (51:48):
And that's what we're that's what we're really here about.
Is we're here to show you know that just because
you are born a certain way or fit into a
certain social boundary, whether or not you believe in them,
doesn't mean you can't be a good person.
Speaker 2 (52:08):
Hike.
Speaker 4 (52:08):
All right, y'all, it's our favorite part of the show.
It's our high key. Let's talk about it. Evie, what
are you high key about this week?
Speaker 3 (52:15):
Okay, okay, this week, I'm so high key because I'm
splitting it in two again.
Speaker 2 (52:21):
I've already talked about them a little. I cannot wait.
Speaker 3 (52:25):
King of Drag is premiering this week on Revery, which
is a free queer streaming app network. I'm so excited
to see these kings, like this is the representation I've
been wanting to see, just to be like, yeah, different
kinds of queer art can exist, sure.
Speaker 4 (52:41):
Until you like have a show that like normalizes and
centers something like people don't really understand what it is
or that it could even be.
Speaker 3 (52:50):
And the other half of this is twenty eight years Later,
also comes out this week. There are many cords of death,
some of Biss in office. So I'm so high key
about like twenty eight years of King of Drag.
Speaker 4 (53:12):
Speaking of shout out to Reverie actually invited me to
that premiere party that is happening for King of Drag,
so I'm gonna go and support nice.
Speaker 2 (53:20):
It's going to be really really fun.
Speaker 4 (53:22):
And shout out to Damien Pallaccini, who was also a
host i mean a podcast and he runs Reverie he's
like the CEO of Reverie, and so he's like.
Speaker 2 (53:31):
Oh my god, can I come on to talk about it?
Speaker 4 (53:32):
I was like, Evie and I are obsess We're very
excited about King of Dragon. We're so excited to watch
what you all are doing. All right, Ben, what about you?
Speaker 1 (53:40):
I'm high key watching and loving Sirens on Netflix. It's
a limited series starring Millie Allcock, Julianne Moore, Megan Fahe
and Kevin Bacon. And I'm really really into it. It's
a dark comedy really about two sisters, and the story
unfolds over one weekend out a billionaire beach compound on
(54:02):
a fictitious island near Martha's vineyard.
Speaker 6 (54:04):
Did I know you as his sister?
Speaker 2 (54:06):
I'm sure I've mentioned her. Yeah. It's quite the house.
Do you have here? No, ch sister, you have here?
Not a huge resemblance, is there?
Speaker 4 (54:15):
No?
Speaker 1 (54:15):
And the story unfolds over one weekend out a billionaire
beach compound on a fictitious island near Martha's vineyard. And
it just took me on a ride in a cliff,
an elusive cliff.
Speaker 2 (54:28):
It was.
Speaker 1 (54:28):
I just really enjoyed it. I thought the acting was phenomenal.
I thought the story was so much fun. And what
I really loved about it is it's actually adapted from
a play, and I thought that was really cool. Plays
have such incredible interpersonal dynamics, and you could see how
those sisters were originally written for the stage. Milly Alcock
was in Game of Thrones. She played young Raniera.
Speaker 5 (54:50):
If you wish to be restored as a you'll need
to kill me, So do it and be done with
all this bulder.
Speaker 1 (54:58):
You know, obviously she was great in Game of Thrones,
but this was a character much closer to her reality,
and she played it exceptionally well. And I really liked
getting into, like thinking about the cultish nature of being
in the world of very wealthy people. And I have
been in that world of very wealthy people at their
houses and at their things, and how you have to
(55:19):
treat them, and how it can be a really nasty,
weird dynamic, and I think they captured it perfectly. So
I don't know, there's murder, there's cults, there's cliffs, there's billionaires.
Speaker 2 (55:30):
What else could you ask for? Sirens on Netflix?
Speaker 4 (55:33):
It's very Greek mythology too. Yeah, that's what it's rooted in.
It's a really great show. I'm so happy you watched it.
Speaker 2 (55:40):
Yeah, and we love Netflix here, so it's my Roman Empire.
Speaker 4 (55:43):
Yes, Okay, I'm going to jump in because I'm high
key saying this is the song of the summer. It
is ou La La by Justine Sky and k Tranada.
It's a song that I can't stop playing. It's absolutely incredible.
I mean, once k tr Nada gets on a song
with one of the R and B garlies, it just
completely takes off into like a rocket shimp and it's
(56:03):
just a moment and I'm I'm.
Speaker 2 (56:05):
Just obsessed with that song. I think it's been a minotints.
Speaker 4 (56:08):
Justine's guy has kind of come back into out of
her influencer era. She was hanging out, you know, she
hangs out with Kylie and Hailey and all the girls
and Kendle.
Speaker 2 (56:19):
But it was like, okay, girl.
Speaker 4 (56:20):
I remember meeting her the first She was one of
the first celebrities I met our names that I met
when I first moved to LA when I was working
for a fashion magazine called Code and we were shooting
her and she was such like a sweet girl and
she had so much going on then, and I think
she took a little bit of a break and now
she's kind of re emerging into the spotlight.
Speaker 2 (56:40):
Everything happens when it's supposed to happen.
Speaker 4 (56:41):
I feel like I've learned so much and everything happened
for a reason. And so if you haven't listened to it,
ooh La La is the song of the summer, and
I'm obsessed with it. Play about every pool party. It works,
it hits. Everybody's gonna be asking you, wait, who is this?
Speaker 2 (56:56):
It works even if you don't have a pool.
Speaker 3 (56:59):
It automatically springs it up like Jesus by the beach.
Speaker 4 (57:02):
Yes, in the bathtop. Yes, I mean while you're cooking
I don't know food. Just play it all the time.
I'm streaming it constantly. I'm very, very excited. So I'm
I keep obsessed with that.
Speaker 2 (57:13):
That's our show.
Speaker 1 (57:14):
Yeah, another episode down and join us next week to
hear my interview with the Great test Holiday.
Speaker 4 (57:20):
I'm so excited, which honestly, I'm obsessed with her. I've
loved her career. I think she's been such a powerhouse
in the fashion industry and changing and shifting how we
appreciate bodies all together, and so I'm so excited to
hear you on conversation.
Speaker 2 (57:34):
Yeah, just wait, we go there, Ryan, It's gonna be great.
I bet all right, y'all until next week.
Speaker 3 (57:40):
Stay messy, stay obsessed, and stay hi key.
Speaker 2 (57:44):
Bye bye.
Speaker 1 (57:47):
If you're high keen loving our show, then take a
second to follow or subscribe so you never miss an episode.
And while you're at it, rate us, drop a review
and tell your friend Cis.
Speaker 4 (57:56):
And of course, if you want to keep the highkey
keep going, join us on Instagra and TikTok at high
Key here and on Patreon, where we're dropping bonus content
every single.
Speaker 2 (58:06):
Wake see there.
Speaker 1 (58:09):
Kai Key is a production of iHeart Podcasts as part
of the Outspoken Network. This show is created and executive
produced by Peno, Keith Ryan, Mitchell, Evey Oddley, and Spoke Media.
Speaker 3 (58:19):
Our showrunner is Tyler Green. Our producers are Jenna Burnett
and Tess Ryan. Our video lead is Bo Delmore, and
our audio engineer is Sammy Sirez. Executive producers for Spoke
Media are Travis Slamont Ballinger and Aleah Tavicolian. Our iHeart
team is Jess Crime Chicch and Sierra Kaiser.
Speaker 2 (58:36):
Our theme music is by Kayan Hersey.
Speaker 4 (58:38):
And our show art is by Work by Work with
photography by Eric Carter.
Speaker 1 (58:42):
Our marketing lead is Jerome Ware from Shorefire Media.
Speaker 3 (58:47):
And then he doesn't even want anything anyways. If you
do have a dad in your life, He's like, I
don't know, just to tie I go. So I want
to watch the game and get a blow job. I
just watched a whole segment on it last night. Father's
Day's not the tea
Anna Wintour says this about fashion, people are jealous that
they can't be a part of it, and that's why
they hate it. And it's so true. And I think,
like with Bo talks Botox, he's not accessible. I think
it's just being more accessible. If we were in South
Korea right now, everybody would be talks up because it's
so accessible. And we're going to take a trip to
South Korea and get our all star spaces for sure, but.
Speaker 2 (00:20):
Likely know.
Speaker 1 (00:25):
In the back of you we're going to South Korea.
Speaker 3 (00:35):
Thank you.
Speaker 2 (00:38):
What's up? Everybody? Welcome to High Key. Yeah. I'm ben
O Keith, I'm Ryan Mitchell, and I'm oddly Today.
Speaker 1 (00:44):
We are serving up a big idea episode on Father's Day.
We are digging into masculinity, our own complex relationships with
our fathers and all things daddy.
Speaker 2 (00:56):
But first, you know what we gotta do. Let's get
into the high Key Key. This is so interesting.
Speaker 4 (01:02):
I feel like because I we've been doing like press
moments for the show and I did a sloppy seconds
with Big Dipper in me balls. Ryan Mitchell, Hello, you
know the way you talk about funians also made me
think about the way people talk about racism. Such an
(01:24):
interesting moment because I love the show, but I just
was not sure what to expect. And it's funny because
I'm the girl in my friend group that is like
the out there one I'm talking about the sets I'm
talking about who was just blow in my back. I
feel like, you know, I'm just that person. But when
I was in the room with them, I was like,
clutch his pearls. I don't know what in gay hell
I've entered into.
Speaker 2 (01:44):
Should I have eavy to this one? But it was
so much fun. It was so much fun. You were
really good too.
Speaker 3 (01:53):
It was very sweet getting to hear you like lift
Me and Benna talk shit about us true yourself. You've
been hiding you two face bitch well.
Speaker 2 (02:03):
And that's also the thing like doing these shows.
Speaker 4 (02:05):
It's like, oh, I realized, like I know how to
talk about myself when it comes to like in this moment.
But it's been interesting having to go somewhere like oh,
I'm the one being interviewed instead of actually doing the interviewing.
And I don't know if I prefer it. I feel
like I I.
Speaker 2 (02:24):
To not answer questions.
Speaker 4 (02:25):
I flip it and start asking them questions and then
it's like the attentions off of fa.
Speaker 1 (02:29):
It's so funny your stuff. I literally said that to
Maddie as we were listening. I was like, you know
how I love to be interviewed. Ryan loves to be
the interviewer like you are. You're so good at it.
It's one of the reasons why oftentimes we're like, I
don't know, maybe Ryan should just do that interview when
we've been talking about the show. It's because you are
so good at it. And it was great to see you.
Speaker 2 (02:48):
Oh my god.
Speaker 4 (02:48):
I mean hopefully I did. Hopefully it just gets better
because I'm also doing enjoyed. I did Joy Taylor's podcast,
which was really fun.
Speaker 2 (02:55):
She's like a sports girlly.
Speaker 4 (02:57):
I talked to my brother last night, who was like,
you with Joy Taylor, and I was like, oh, yeah,
like I know her, but I wasn't.
Speaker 2 (03:04):
I wasn't aware of how big of a sports girl.
Speaker 4 (03:06):
I mean, she's like a sports battie, Like she's one
of the main women in.
Speaker 2 (03:10):
Sports, like broadcasters. So that was really cool.
Speaker 4 (03:12):
I don't know when that's coming out, but I'm excited
about it. It's it's it's fun. We talked about a
lot of different things. We talked about boundaries, we talked about.
Speaker 2 (03:20):
It's kind of like being queer, not even really sports stuff.
Speaker 4 (03:24):
I was, yeah, but like her show is all about
going deep and personal, like it's living withal too personal,
and so it was.
Speaker 2 (03:32):
It was an interesting time. How was y'all's week How
was y'all's weekend? Not as impressive as yours? That's not true,
I say it was. It was went to a fairy wedding.
Wait yeah, wait, wait, I want.
Speaker 1 (03:43):
To hear Ben's I went to see opening night of
my Son's a Queer.
Speaker 2 (03:48):
But What Can You Do?
Speaker 1 (03:49):
Which is this incredible show written and starring Rog Madge,
who is a West End performer.
Speaker 5 (03:56):
Wanted to be a star, but not just any star,
a princess. So Rob decided to create the greatest show
of all time but the Disney a ring.
Speaker 2 (04:06):
We're not allowed to say the d World.
Speaker 1 (04:08):
The show is supposed to be on Broadway, and what
happened is that it never opened. And it was really, really,
really tough because it was this amazing, super successful show.
But who's going to invest in a bald, white British,
you know, thirty year old to do their own solo
show on Broadway it just didn't come together.
Speaker 2 (04:28):
And it's still May, and I have hope for it.
Speaker 1 (04:30):
But first of all, it was really exciting to be invited,
and I was texting Ryan, I was like, I think
this show is like kind of moving our stature up
a little bit. Because they brought me in like the
side entrance. They had me sitting in front, like Plasma
was behind me, these like Tony Award winning stars.
Speaker 3 (04:46):
No, girl, that's not bringing your statue up. They just
they just demoted you. No I Plasma.
Speaker 1 (04:52):
I'm saying I was sitting a couple of rows before.
Plasma's a very famous musical guest.
Speaker 2 (04:57):
I say, Ben, you are officially gay mists. I'm Gamis.
That's what's happening.
Speaker 1 (05:02):
And this has been my dream, right, I don't even
need to be famous, but like to be gamis to
be part of the gay illuminati. And as we're seeing
the erasure of queer media, there's less than less spaces
like this, and so when we go to these spaces,
so many people came up to me and they're like
quoting the show and I'm like, oh, that's episode two,
Like you're like, you're really actually or people were quoting
(05:23):
the episode that had just come out on Friday, and
I was like, oh, wow, this is actually doing something.
This show was so incredible. Congratulations to Rod. We need
more queer shows. We need more opportunities for people to
tell their stories, and that's what solo shows really do.
And so to see this show where they talk about
like growing up, there's all this old clips from when
(05:45):
they were a kid, and you just see that they
always knew that they were a star and the world
didn't know, and so they created the space to show
the world and it was so beautiful.
Speaker 3 (05:55):
That's the issue with queer people. We all know we're stars.
Speaker 2 (05:59):
We all know.
Speaker 3 (06:01):
How can you be like that this fabulous like popping
out and I have to be told like, oh no no,
you're actually doing things backwards and you're like no, no, no,
people just need to catch up.
Speaker 2 (06:11):
It was an alter ego berth out of trauma.
Speaker 3 (06:14):
Yeah, Like we literally we all know where stars, to
the point where sometimes even when we shouldn't be stars,
we're stars.
Speaker 2 (06:21):
I will have to.
Speaker 4 (06:22):
Say I think I may need to move because I
was on the elevator and this woman is so sweet
and I don't know she's listening, but one of my neighbors
was like, oh my god, I was on a drag
race subreddit and I saw that you are gamests and
I was kind of like, huh.
Speaker 2 (06:37):
I saw you had a podcast.
Speaker 4 (06:39):
I was like what yeah, And then Ibdi was plotting,
like okay, so I need to move because why there's
just way too many people in this building that I know.
And then two not being on the subreddit and seeing
that we have high key. Now it's just so interesting,
like as we're growing this thing and people are actually listening,
there's a moment that I feel like, Edie, you've probably
(07:00):
gotten very used to around like trying to set your boundaries,
and I just can't stop thinking about the Doja Cats
the fan situation, Like, y'all, it has been some drama,
like and it all started out at a paper magazine
party at The Eagle with Mariah Carey randomly popping up
and Doja Cat was.
Speaker 3 (07:17):
There, like the Eagle, the Eagle in what city?
Speaker 2 (07:22):
I'm curious? In La? In La? Okay? Yeah, yeah, they
were having their pride party. He was like, I know it,
well I did.
Speaker 4 (07:29):
But yeah, so there's been all this drama around obviously,
like Dojah Cat in her respond to this fan who
everybody seems very drunk. And this TikTok video that when viral,
this fan gave her his shirts and he was kind
of all over her.
Speaker 2 (07:42):
I'm about to give my shirt to Jojia Kak because
she's the Icony girl.
Speaker 4 (07:45):
Like Joja was being very sweet, and it seemed like
every party in the video was very kind of like
into this vibe plot twist. Dojah cat tweets and says,
you know, I threw the shirt that this fan gave
away from me and she felt quite uncomfortable must Yah
(08:06):
shirt and she was not actually Philly. She's like, just
because I smile at you doesn't mean I fuck with you.
And it created this whole discourse around okay boundaries, her
setting the boundaries. This fan kind of was whose fault
is it? In this moment, people are blaming Dojah to
be quite honest, because they're like, oh, you tweeted this
and now you're seeking all your fans on this random person.
Speaker 1 (08:29):
What do we think I hate the well because we
need to know first of all, we need to know
the Doja history, because this is not the first time
that Doja has turned on her fans. She lost five
hundred thousand Instagram followers because of it in the.
Speaker 2 (08:42):
Past, trying on her friends. But here's the thing.
Speaker 3 (08:44):
You cannot turn on your fans, bitch. You cannot turn
on people that you yere. She literally says, I hate you,
I hate my fan. Yes, but that's the thing is
turning on your fans implies that she's somehow ever, actually
genuinely loved her fans.
Speaker 2 (09:01):
And that's why this situation pisses me off, because.
Speaker 3 (09:03):
What really happened is the parisocialness of this relationship got exposed.
That's sure don't like No, no, no, no, no no, that's
what people don't like. People don't like that celebrities are
paid and make our entire livelihoods by pretending for people
by being Yes, I am your rag doll. Yes, let's
(09:24):
take a picture. Oh, you've got me in this uncomfortable corner.
Let's giggle about it. Those people also pay your bills. Yes,
those people pay your bills. But at what point do
you get to lose your humanity?
Speaker 1 (09:36):
And let me let me make a point real quick,
because I actually hate fandoms. I hate worth of this?
Where the butterflies? Where the kittens? Worth of this? And
that I hate fantoms. I've never been a part of it,
but this specific incident is tough because if you watch
the video, anyone would think like they're just not uncomfortable
at all. And this is where the conversation about boundary.
Speaker 2 (09:55):
I never faked being uncomfortable in a situation corn if
that's heard.
Speaker 1 (09:59):
The thing is like boundaries are set by the person
setting the boundaries. You can't expect someone to know your boundaries.
You can say, oh, hey, honey, sorry I don't touch you,
but you can't expect someone when you're smiling and saying
this is great to somehow not know it enough that
you can then shit talk them. And then when you
listen to the video of the person and the context
before the conversation, she's.
Speaker 2 (10:19):
The one at this event.
Speaker 3 (10:20):
I was being so nice and she said she pointed
out my shirts and I said, oh, I release.
Speaker 2 (10:23):
This T shirt. Blah blah blah. I love to give
you one. She said I'd want one right now, and
I said, oh, I could give this one to you.
She said, no way, You're not gonna give this to me.
And that's when the video started. She's saying, oh I
want this shirt.
Speaker 1 (10:32):
Oh great, and never she could have just let it go,
first of all, but second of all, like you set
boundaries if you don't want someone touching you say that period, How.
Speaker 2 (10:40):
Well did that work for me? Man? How well did
that work for me?
Speaker 3 (10:43):
Like when I literally at the beginning of my fame
that we're now all starting new experience, I guess in
new ways. When I was like, hey, you guys, I
just finished a fucking show, don't take pictures with me,
I was piled on so quickly that alumni of the franchise,
we're piling on, And well, I'm not.
Speaker 2 (11:03):
Like this, bitch, all take pictures.
Speaker 3 (11:05):
When chapel Rone started setting boundaries, people started fucking trying
to cancel her for being a toxic little brat.
Speaker 2 (11:13):
So I don't I let you finish your part? Finish.
I like to finish finish.
Speaker 3 (11:19):
The point is that we as a culture create monsters.
That is exactly what this parasocial relationship is. Is us
pouring our feelings into somebody who literally has absolutely.
Speaker 2 (11:32):
Zero fucking responsibility to pay them back.
Speaker 3 (11:34):
And it is nice, Okay, it is nice as a
fan to feel appreciated, But bitch, Beyonce does appreciate you
in two ways. She appreciates you in the way that
it feels so good to know that your story is
impacting somebody, that you're helping someone, that they're helping you,
that we are all connected.
Speaker 2 (11:51):
That's the same feeling you get on Mollie. And then
it feels good to know that your bills are paid.
Speaker 4 (11:56):
Yeah, all right, let me let me jump in really quick,
because I think there's a moment where I sit in
the middle of you both, right. I think I see
where Ben is coming from from a fan perspective, but
ultimately I do agree about the levels of parasocial relationship.
And I think if we really think about Dojah's trajectory
(12:16):
since the beginning, she's always been a rogue artist. She's
always been someone that has never, like you know, held
her her mouth like. She's always kind of said what
she's thinking, and also has kind of really from the beginning,
has tried to establish like, Hey, all of this stuff
that stand culture creates is not how I'm maneuvering in
(12:36):
this space. She's always been very clear about that. And
what I witness in that moment is someone coming like
a little may be intoxicated from a party, and she
didn't really have security around her, and cameras are everywhere.
This camera probably was pulled out when they saw her.
When this guy who apparently there's been a lot of
videos around him kind of being this person that pops
(12:58):
up around selectes and kind of does it where he's
either giving out jewelry or he's like there's a crazy
pizza delivery story about how he's stuck in the gates
of Kylie Jenner's house, and so like, this guy doesn't
really know boundaries, And it's really interesting to me when
we don't have the ability to see that video and
(13:19):
see that someone is just trying to like maneuver a
drunk night and maybe isn't very like able to set
their boundaries, but they're trying to kind of get through
this low key, uncomfortable situation while also being like, you know, nice,
because any if she would have looked out, y'all would
have dragged her for that as well.
Speaker 2 (13:38):
But what about what happened next?
Speaker 1 (13:40):
So say that's all find and good, then why use
your platform to go after someone in such a harmful way.
That's where we have to think about the response. I
don't think it's not harmful. It's not harmful. I don't
know if you've ever you have been actually so you
do know. Yes, I have also been attacked on the
internet many, many, many times.
Speaker 3 (13:58):
In an attack on the internet is not an attack
in real life.
Speaker 4 (14:01):
But okay, well, I feel like it's a little bit
of a stress.
Speaker 2 (14:05):
The internet is in real life.
Speaker 1 (14:06):
The Internet is real life first of all, because it
still hurts when you have thousands of people calling you
one thing or the other. All I'm saying is I
agree that situation just didn't have to go like that
for multiple reasons. I don't think anyone but he's milking it.
So it's kind of like he's enjoying the response.
Speaker 4 (14:22):
So it's like, I don't, I don't how am I
supposed to be feeling bad for right now?
Speaker 1 (14:25):
That's my point on both sides is like the thing
about celebrity, it is a privilege and it does come
with perks, you know what I mean, You've had.
Speaker 4 (14:33):
Just because people pay your bills does not mean that
you don't deserve like humanity and don't deserve to be
like treat boundary.
Speaker 2 (14:40):
Don't they deserve kindness? She said, And I think she
has her kindness. I don't think those has been kind
to her fans.
Speaker 3 (14:46):
Okay, she was presenting him with kindness in the moment
trapped there, Ben, that was the number of fucking prides
I've been to where my security just hasn't dealt with
a real girl of my size.
Speaker 2 (14:58):
So they let me get ma by people who are like, oh.
Speaker 3 (15:01):
Yeah, and then also my mother's here and she's dying
of cancer and make a video and let me like
suck up your time and oh my god, I'm gonna
just rub my sweat on you. Like our job is
to put on the fucking smile, And what Dojakat has
consistently done has been like, yeah, that smile comes off.
So while it was maybe mean of her too, afterwards
(15:23):
be like, dude, this is some bullshit.
Speaker 2 (15:25):
It was it was me, it was mean.
Speaker 4 (15:26):
I think we can say that it wasn't kind, It
wasn't kind, It was not kind. But I think a
lot of people forget that we all, individually as humans
have experienced moments where we're not kind. Sure, and I
think we often put especially when it comes to the
intersection of being a black woman in this space, I
think we put a lot of like expectations on someone
on how they should like be and show up, especially
(15:47):
if you're a star, especially if you're a woman, especially
if you're a black woman. And for me, the response
around dojacat has been very interesting to see. And I've
also been low key like have we lost the plot here?
We like, are we not able to talk about? Yeah,
her decision to tweet that was wrong. But then also this,
this fan, this parasocial relationship that fans think they have
(16:09):
with you is actually harmful because now even if you
do create a moment where you're trying to set boundaries
for yourself, you're you might be ripped to shreds for it.
Speaker 2 (16:18):
And so it's a little wonky.
Speaker 1 (16:19):
I don't know, And I'll say this, it's like billionaires. Okay,
celebrities shouldn't exist. Because it's just like billionaire shouldn't exist.
Celebrities are a construct created in society to create hierarchies
and aspirations that are all rooted and commodifying ourselves as individuals. Now,
with social media, every single person is a business. Every
single person is an influencer. That means every single person
(16:42):
aspires to be that person. So they're in space and
they feel equal. Now because we're all creators, we're just
one viral video away from being Dosha cat la la
la la la. I'm famous now, but that.
Speaker 4 (16:54):
If you're not famous, Ben, You're not gonna be able
to get to the side entrance of the business exactly.
Speaker 1 (16:59):
And that's exactly And look, that was my dream all
my life, right Like I wanted that power and proximity.
I absolutely did, because I grew up on the other extreme.
But I'm saying that we also have to acknowledge our
roles in it. That's all I'm saying. I don't think
that Dosha should be attacked on the internet, but that's
the Internet. What I think is, like, we have to
(17:20):
realize we have a lot of privilege and benefit that
comes with the visibility. And all I'm saying is we
should pick our battles that we go to publicly against
real people who might not have the resource too.
Speaker 2 (17:32):
I mean that fan is fake as fuck.
Speaker 3 (17:34):
The fact that he is, He's literally milking it and
trying to sell the experience.
Speaker 2 (17:40):
Just proves what this is.
Speaker 3 (17:42):
Like, Yes, we should all try and be better people,
but when somebody is literally trying to use you, like,
that's what actually makes me it's transactional. Well but yeah,
but that's the thing is it's completely transactional. You can't
be like it's wrong for her to hurt somebody who's
trying to make money of her. And the reason why
I'm saying this and maybe so impassioned is over the
(18:03):
weekend where I was at a fairy wedding and it
was lovely full circle, we got to it.
Speaker 2 (18:08):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (18:08):
I opened up a DM on Instagram that was buried
in like the message requests and read back to the
history the beginning of this history where a queer fan
of mine, a business owner I guess, had been communicating
with one of my friends and sent them a box
of shirts as a gift to give me, and it
said in the original message like no strings attached. These
(18:31):
are just like from me to you. I appreciate what
you've done for the community. And I remember my friend
giving me those shirts and being like it'd be cool
if you could tag them, and me honestly not wearing
those shirts or thinking about them for like half a year,
and then I'm checking the dms and it's like, Hey,
just wondering if you got the shirts. Hey, so your
(18:52):
friend said you got the shirts, so are you ever
going to post about them? To what they had finally messaged,
which was, you know, it is so rude of you
to like manipulate somebody within your community who spent X
amount of money on a gift for you. And I'm
not even asking for like a repost, but your acknowledgment
would have been nice. Since we are a family that's parasocial.
Speaker 2 (19:15):
See, there's no empathy.
Speaker 4 (19:16):
Everyone just automatically assumes you're the You're the villain in
everyone's store, like and that's someone so.
Speaker 2 (19:21):
It's one sided, but the one sided store.
Speaker 3 (19:23):
But that's what I'm saying is that's what parasocial means,
and that's what celebrity in this time means. Means you
are open to whatever criticism from everyone all the time
to play whatever character they need at any given moment.
It's not just a T shirt at a musts T
shirt at an after party. It's at your grandma's funeral,
(19:44):
It's it's at a friend's wedding out in the woods
in the middle of fucking New Hampshire somewhere, and somebody
seeing something in you and being like, oh my.
Speaker 2 (19:53):
God, I cannot believe you're here.
Speaker 3 (19:56):
You have to stop whatever like character you were trying
to play for this wedding to be EVI oddly because
that means something to me. And so yes, it is
good when you're a good person and you go the
extra mile. But I also think we need to stop
trying to hold people so accountable for letting off steam
and completely harmless ways.
Speaker 4 (20:15):
I know because you were able to do it in private,
but like when someone has a platform and someone is
as big like I've been so close to like celebrity,
especially like in a YouTube creator where there's a creator
that who shall remain nameless, that I was a part
of their world for a little bit, and I remember
seeing them in their home in Calabasas afraid to leave
(20:36):
or even go to the mall because they were afraid
that people anytime they would go, there would be cameras
and people looking and all the things, and just.
Speaker 2 (20:44):
So they had to stay in their home in Calabasas.
Speaker 4 (20:46):
I know, it's like it's worse, It's so worse. No,
but it's it's one of those things where I'm like,
there is a level of fame where it feels like
it turns into prison. Yeah that's me saying that, And
I think I often think, yeah, it is something that
we people sign up for when they are like their creator,
they're an artist, and they start to get big and
all this kind of new support comes in.
Speaker 2 (21:08):
But I don't know.
Speaker 4 (21:09):
I just feel like sometimes we lose empathy, We lose
that thing that we constantly are asking for and we
don't give it to others.
Speaker 2 (21:16):
In both directions.
Speaker 4 (21:17):
Yeah, yeah, this doja cat moment is crazy. Let us
know what your thoughts are. Hit us up at high
Key here. We're always down for y'all to join the conversation.
But I think it's time for a little bit of
a break. We should be getting into more big idea conversations.
Speaker 1 (21:32):
Yes, when we come back, we're talking about everyone's you know,
most favorite, least complicated holiday, Father's Dayther'sday, Daddy. We'll see
you right after the break, all right, heighty welcome back. Yeah,
before we jump back in, we have a quick request.
If you are high key love in the show, then
(21:54):
take a second to follow or subscribe so you never
miss an episode.
Speaker 3 (21:58):
And while you're at it, rate us us a review
and tell your friends.
Speaker 2 (22:02):
Yeah, it really helps us to pay our bills.
Speaker 4 (22:04):
Hik you no, for sure, And honestly, if you love
us even more and you want to keep the high
Key Key going. Make sure you follow us on Instagram
and TikTok at high Key here, and of course on
our Patreon, where you are not going to want to
miss any of the Juicy Juicy team.
Speaker 2 (22:19):
Thanks for the love, Weirdos.
Speaker 4 (22:21):
Back to the show, hik you okay, so welcome back everybody.
It is time for the big Idea portion of the show,
which today I kind of affectually named call us Daddy
Issues or maybe high Key Daddy Issues, because this is
our show, not Alex.
Speaker 1 (22:39):
Yeah, exactly this episode. I think I pitched it in
our editorial meeting. Last week we had Father's Day, and
Father's Day is like a complicated holiday for me. And
I won't say that I was necessarily sad, because I'm
quite indifferent about my own father, but I was just
like thinking more about the day.
Speaker 2 (22:59):
Got you hate him?
Speaker 1 (23:00):
I mean, I yeah, I don't even hate him. I
just don't care enough to hate him, you.
Speaker 6 (23:05):
Know, you know what I mean?
Speaker 1 (23:06):
I mean, I guess I could share my kind of stories.
My dad was kind of in and out of my life,
and I remember in second grade he was supposed to
come home for Christmas and he had called us and
he said, oh, I got your PlayStation two. We have
all these things. I'll be home soon. And Christmas Day
came around, he wasn't there. And then the next day
and the next day at whatever. He was always kind
of flaky. He didn't ever show up, which wasn't a
(23:29):
huge surprise, and then he kind of disappeared for like
a decade, okay, and then showed back up in my
life when I was in middle school, eighth grade, worst
time of my life, right after my grandmother had died,
and was like, I'm so sorry, basically told this whole
story about how he was holding someone's coke and had
to run away to Mexico. It's quite a story, but
(23:50):
I just like I didn't have my father in my
life through so much hardship, through poverty, through all of
these things. And I was thinking about it on Father's
Day because I was just kind of upset around this
idea of like, man, my life has been hard and
it would have been a lot easier, like had I
had this parent in my life, and like I want
to be a father soon, and it it was just
(24:12):
a complicated day. So I guess I'll start by asking
what is Father's Day like for you, what is your
own relationship with your father?
Speaker 2 (24:20):
Like I didn't even realize it was Father's Day.
Speaker 4 (24:23):
Like I didn't realize it was father Day until my
mom told me because she wanted to check in on
me because my dad died in twenty twenty two. But
he had never really been in my life as a kid.
There's a really interesting story I met him, like when
I was a toddler, when we lived in Illinois still,
but then when we moved to Tennessee, all contact kind
(24:44):
of just like ceased, and I didn't hear from him
again until I was graduating in high school around sixteen,
because I wrote this essay that my English teacher made
us write about defeating your dragon, and my dragon was
basically forget giving my dad for never being in my life.
And my mom, because at that time we shared a laptop,
(25:05):
she thought it was a great idea to.
Speaker 2 (25:07):
Find my dad and send it to him.
Speaker 4 (25:10):
And the next thing I know, and I'm waking up
one morning and I have a voicemail on my cell
phone from my dad being like, hey, son, this is
your dad.
Speaker 2 (25:21):
Call me.
Speaker 4 (25:22):
And I'm just like, now, bitch, what the fuck? So
it took me a minute to call him back. The
next thing I know, my dad is showing up to
my graduation party with my three siblings and his wife.
At the time, they were younger. My siblings are like
late twenties. I would yeah, I'm the oldest out of
(25:43):
all the siblings. There's five of us, but only three
of them that came, And so I was kind of
thrown into this moment of not really knowing how to
deal with this right like I'm I'm like, why am
I Why is this kind of spotlight kind of being
taking for me? And I have so like now be
this big brother to these little siblings, and then like
no talk to my dad, and I just remember being
(26:06):
so awful. Fast forward to my twenty first birthday. My
dad was trying to be back in my life, and
I honestly he wanted to give me money for my
twenty first birthday because he wanted me to have a
good time and I was spending at Atlanta with friends
and he gave me money for that. But to be honest,
like it was off and on, like he always from
my understanding and my point of view, it was like
(26:27):
the grass was always greener on the other side, Like
he had the wife he had the kids and they
were getting all of him. But when I started to
become closer to my siblings as we've gotten older, I
found out it was just as rocky there and it
wasn't actually everything that I thought it was, and they
were actually having their own issues.
Speaker 2 (26:45):
But once he passed, I went to.
Speaker 4 (26:48):
The funeral, and what an interesting experience that was because
I had never met my dad's side of the family,
and I found out that my dad actually was like
listening to my radio show at the time. It was
like talking about me to all of these family members
who knew me, and was actually that graduation moment. My
little brother was like, do you think my brother is gay?
(27:11):
And from what my stepmom would tell me, she said basically, well,
your dad was like, well.
Speaker 2 (27:18):
What does that mean if he's gay? Does it matter?
Speaker 4 (27:20):
Like they had kind of like this conversation around was
like not caring around my sexuality, where on the opposite
side of my mom's side it was completely different. And
so I remember getting the news when he died and
I had this like guttural reaction because I didn't know him.
But I felt like I had so much guilt because
I spent so much of my life resenting him instead
(27:43):
of like maybe leaning in, like holding.
Speaker 3 (27:48):
That space for it and being like, yeah, you know what,
I do get a dad, even though I don't really
see the point of it now for sure. It's kind
of funny because you know, I have also a very
famous fo very game as father, even though he's not gay,
despite my strongest efforts to convert him. But my relationship
with not only him but fatherhood in general is like
(28:11):
way more complex because ultimately, like my mother was my
primary caregiver, and to my dad's credit for somebody who
was also in college halfway across the country, like he
did come back and he did ultimately like make the
choice to try and commit himself to being in my life.
(28:32):
I just think by the time I was really forming memories.
Speaker 2 (28:37):
Like my entire idea of fatherhood.
Speaker 3 (28:41):
Was just completely warped because I had him, and then
I had my stepdad, And some of my earliest memories
are like these two fully grown black men like fighting
each other in broad daylight in the middle of the
street for my affection, So dreams come true.
Speaker 4 (29:00):
He doesn't want you men fighting over That's happened many
times since too.
Speaker 3 (29:03):
Honestly, I know my mom was over there, like, yeah,
I did this.
Speaker 2 (29:08):
But the reason why I.
Speaker 3 (29:09):
Just cut to that so specifically is none of these
people were my mother. My mom was my only sense
of safety and security. And the more I got to
know my stepdad, and the more I got to know
my real dad, and the more I got to know
my granddad, like, the more terrified I became of men,
because they were always the people who were telling me like, Oh, nope,
(29:32):
you shouldn't be playing with dolls. Oh, oh god, you
want to play dress up?
Speaker 6 (29:37):
No?
Speaker 2 (29:38):
Why is he always twirling around? And a lot of
a lot of my.
Speaker 3 (29:42):
Book all about Evuh is actually direct interview with my dad,
And it's interesting hearing his perspective because he echoed the
same thing that my stepdad did when I read my
own book. Finally, and I cried and like confronted him
about the wrecked homophobia I got, and he started breaking
(30:04):
down and crying because he just didn't know how to
raise someone like me.
Speaker 2 (30:08):
He didn't know how to relate, how to protect me.
Speaker 3 (30:12):
And I think in general, there is this issue with
that occurs around fathers, especially fathers in the queer community,
or of people who are in the queer community, and
fathers of color. Like I think it's really I think
it's a lot easier to step away from the responsibilities
(30:33):
of like what you're doing and what you're raising as
a man than it is as somebody who like birthed you.
Speaker 2 (30:40):
And I know not.
Speaker 3 (30:40):
Everybody has their super solid relationship with mom, but it
is like one step harder to carry something inside you
for nine months and then not give a shit about.
Speaker 2 (30:52):
It in the way that the moms do.
Speaker 3 (30:55):
So like growing up, I never I never cared about dads.
In fact, I remember whenever I felt like I was
being mistreated at my dad's, which I wasn't. They were
just making me eat vegetarian food and they wouldn't let
me eat any sugar. I remember I would like call
to my mom and cry and be like I just
(31:15):
want to come home.
Speaker 4 (31:16):
I had a black family that was like I'm telling
you to not you have sugar or meat.
Speaker 2 (31:20):
Wow, that's unheard of, I know.
Speaker 3 (31:22):
I mean it's really well because they're deeply spiritual. Like
I look at my family in two ways, and I
kind of look at my experience of dads in two ways,
which is like white Christian even though that family's black too,
But like white like Southern Baptist Christian family and then
Black Black Power moved to Africa for a decade, like
(31:44):
leader of the Black Panthers family. And I think both
of them did a fantastic job at trying to make
space for somebody who is as weird and different and
complex as as even their relationship to me forced us
to be.
Speaker 2 (31:59):
But it's difficult.
Speaker 1 (32:01):
I have a question I want to kind of talk about,
like what we think it means to be a good
father and what we think like how that relates to masculinity,
because I hear both of y'all giving a lot of
grace to your father's but also taking a lot of
accountability for the actions of grown adults in your life who,
even if they didn't have the resources, could have sought
(32:24):
the resources.
Speaker 2 (32:25):
Like that's what's hard.
Speaker 1 (32:25):
Like Ryan, I hear you talk about like, oh, I
had this resentment in this, but like I think that
was equal and earned. Like it's nice he was being
all nice and not homophobic talking to your siblings, but
like it's a.
Speaker 4 (32:37):
Little bit more complicated than that. I think the contense
version just for time, No.
Speaker 1 (32:42):
Sure, but like do you know what I mean? Like
I'm just like wondering about the grace piece, like.
Speaker 4 (32:46):
Yeah, I mean after a while, though, doesn't it become
exhausting holding onto shit.
Speaker 2 (32:52):
Like after a while, like I've had.
Speaker 4 (32:54):
That's something I've had to learn with like my relationship
with my mom, because if I'm being honest, like father
Day normally was another Mother's Day where I'm getting up
in front of the church for you know, the kid
that has the single mothers or like say my dad
is my mom, you know, like that that was just
always kind of what it was like. And I think
I did have resentment towards that, but it was more
(33:17):
so it was more so like resentment for not even resentment.
It was more so like I wondered what life would
have been like if my mom's worries about having a
male father figure was like kind of like subsided because
she was so busy trying to raise me and trying
(33:37):
to like palm me off to like deacons and ministers
at our church because she wanted me to be around
men and.
Speaker 2 (33:43):
Kind of learn what it meant to be a boy.
Speaker 4 (33:45):
That if my dad was in my life and he
was giving her a different perspective and not like being
homophobic or what all the things I wouldn't have kind
of had this resentment towards masculinity in the ways that
I do of like trying to completely avoid it, or
if I'm put in a souper, were in a space
where like masculinity as present.
Speaker 2 (34:03):
I'm kind of like getting theyck, oh yeah.
Speaker 4 (34:05):
That's kind of like my brain around it, Like because
I told him all these things, I've had the conversation
and after a.
Speaker 2 (34:10):
While, like you know, it is what it is, like.
Speaker 4 (34:14):
I can't I can't hold I just I don't feel
like holding on to it anymore. You got closure, Yeah,
I kind of got I got closure after his funeral
and being able to like meet my dad's family, who
I thought I was introducing myself to you for the first.
Speaker 2 (34:31):
Time, but no, they knew who I was.
Speaker 4 (34:34):
And yes he had he could have actually actively like
introduced me or been in part of my life if
he wanted to. But here in my siblings side of
the things, he was dealing with his own kind of
like life of being like he he didn't really know how.
Speaker 2 (34:45):
To balance being for the streets and being a.
Speaker 4 (34:48):
Father man like a husband and a father, like he
didn't really know how to balance that and that was
his own thing. And I think for me as an adult,
I'm really in this time where I'm just like viewing
my parents as like humans and just like understanding like, oh,
this is further impacting my decision on if I really
want to be a parent what the fuck that means.
Speaker 2 (35:10):
Moving forward?
Speaker 4 (35:11):
So I don't know, like I'm offering grace, but also
I'm trying not.
Speaker 2 (35:16):
To carry that shit.
Speaker 3 (35:18):
I think that's the biggest thing is despite all the
love I was surrounded with, I still had a lot
of the same queer trauma being like called nicknames and
picked on by my.
Speaker 2 (35:28):
Father figures, both of them, all of them.
Speaker 3 (35:31):
Every father figure in my life, even if it was
like joyfully or whatever othered me for being queer. And
I felt like as soon as I was kicked out
of my house for being a delinquent and deviant and
other perceived ways, I built a grudge against my family.
Like I did have it hard growing up. It could
have been harder in different ways, it could have been
(35:53):
lighter in different ways. But I needed the space of
for me a decade to be angry and be paid
and see what I could make for myself, like build
queer family that taught me so much about how I
relate to my own family, to the point where, like now,
when I see them, I'm hit with a sense of
like melancholia about knowing that they tried their best given
(36:19):
the circumstances, and sometimes it wasn't good enough, and sometimes
it still won't be good enough, and sometimes I'm still
going to do the same things.
Speaker 2 (36:27):
Have you forgiven your dad been?
Speaker 1 (36:28):
Like?
Speaker 4 (36:28):
Have you forgiven that? Like that the relationship that could
have been? Or are you do you still find yourself?
I mean maybe this whole conversation answers that, but have
I what are your feelings right now when you think
about your dad?
Speaker 1 (36:46):
I guess I'm still dealing with the ramifications of his actions,
and so it's hard to forgive when it still feels
active and like I wish my dad was dead.
Speaker 2 (36:59):
Oh wow, Like I think.
Speaker 1 (37:04):
I think that might be easier than like having someone
out in the world actively not choosing you, you know.
And I think that has created a dynamic in my
life where I just want to be chosen. I just
want to be picked. I just want to be loved,
you know. Yeah, And so for me, it's hard. I'm
(37:27):
not angry at him. I really am indifferent, like I
really am when it comes to him. I don't know him.
If he did die, it wouldn't matter to me besides
the fact that the finality that at least like he's
no longer actively choosing to not have this incredible person
in his life that is me, that is my brother.
And so I guess what's hard is like I take
(37:50):
him at his fullness. I take him as a human.
But he was a grown ass adult in his thirties
when he chose to have a child. Well I wasn't.
I didn't choose to be born. And while he was
off having fun, we were, you know, barely scraping by,
just barely scraping by. And so I was also that
(38:12):
kid who was like my mom was my dad because
she was, but my mom also struggled to be my mom,
you know. Yeah, And so I was my father, and
so I was my parent, and so I have to
continue to be. And what I'm really mourning more than
anything is like competent parents as an adult, where it's
(38:32):
just like I'm going through something and I have someone
I can go to where like I actually respect what
I'm getting back instead of having to be that for them.
So no, I don't think I have forgiven him, and
I don't think I will. I've let go for me,
but I've not forgiven him because I don't forgive him,
(38:56):
like like that's fine. I don't currently have forgiveness in
my heart for him.
Speaker 4 (39:01):
And it's so valid that I think everything that you
just expressed is such a valid way of feeling because
for so long I also felt that same thing.
Speaker 2 (39:12):
But I think it's so interesting how.
Speaker 4 (39:16):
I feel like a lot of the not some of
the sentiment that you expressed for your dad.
Speaker 2 (39:21):
I kind of slung it over to my mom in
a lot of ways. And I love my mom. I
think we're in a better place.
Speaker 4 (39:26):
But it's so interesting when you're really trying to actively
kind of like clean the slate and allow yourself to
like move forwards for you and to know that you're
worth it and you're worthy of the love and being
chosen and all the things. It's it's really really hard
(39:46):
when those days come around and you're reminded of like the.
Speaker 1 (39:49):
Lack, and it makes me think about like what I
want to be And like Brian, you had asked us
off camera like kind of like who are the dad?
It's our TV dads that we thought about and it's
so silly and I hate it's culture daddies.
Speaker 2 (40:05):
Yeah, like who are your who are your favorite dads?
Like what makes a good dad to you?
Speaker 1 (40:10):
Well, it's so annoying, but mine was Bill Cosby and
The Cosby Show.
Speaker 6 (40:14):
Look, I don't think it's necessary for you to risk
life and limb to prove something to your mother and
me when we've said to you, we believe you and
we love you.
Speaker 2 (40:26):
Oh same. I love that show and it sucks in
an age will age like Milk.
Speaker 1 (40:31):
I love that show or even you know Uncle Phil
and in the Fresh Prince of bel Air.
Speaker 2 (40:36):
You have no idea what my first memory of you is.
Speaker 4 (40:40):
I remember a kid loaded with all the potential in
the world.
Speaker 2 (40:45):
Now I see a person on the verge of realizing
their potential.
Speaker 1 (40:49):
Like these like black men who like had it together
and who weren't always perfect, but like you know, loosened
their their tightness because I'm wound up and tight and like,
I know, I want my kid to be a scholar,
but they might be a garbage person both as a
person and in profession, and like I would have to
love them either way. Like, but they taught life lessons
(41:10):
and they just were fun and they had dinner at
the table together, Like I wanted that quintessential family life.
And when I saw black families that looked like that,
I just didn't know a lot of black families that
looked like that. And so that, yeah, Bill Cosby, piece
of fucking shit.
Speaker 2 (41:26):
That was gonna be that was gonna be mine. You're not.
But it sucks because TV dads are fun.
Speaker 4 (41:32):
But also when you really think about it, like when
it comes from a cultural perspective, like TV dads often were.
Speaker 2 (41:37):
Like the dumb ones, Like they were kind of like
they take, like.
Speaker 4 (41:41):
They weren't really active, and they came in for like
the really feel good dad moments, but like they really
didn't show up, and it was really kind of like
the woman or the mom running the household. And so
I was like, how about we make it gay and
just be like, who are your favorite daddies in general?
Speaker 3 (41:55):
Okay, well yeah, cause I was gonna say, I like,
actually rather do that.
Speaker 2 (41:58):
It's a longer list, and straightman do not deserve to
be praised on this.
Speaker 3 (42:03):
Also, I didn't fuck with any of those daddies, just
to like get this out out of my system, Like
even Bill Cosby, I did not like men. I did
not like men and what they bring to relationships, especially
in the media, being like oh beer, oh the hawk girl,
Oh my wife, who I, for some reason don't deserve
(42:23):
at all.
Speaker 2 (42:24):
Like that was always a note for me.
Speaker 3 (42:26):
The dad I wanted growing up was the guy who
was living next door, who we were friends with, his kids,
and he kind of watched over all the neighborhood kids
even after his wife left him. He was he was there,
and he was compassionate and like, he liked fun. He
put fun more highly than rules or grades or being
(42:50):
a good man or like he never discouraged his kids
or me from having emotions or expressing myself or being different.
Speaker 2 (42:58):
He rollerbladed and he were tied. I and he actually
he died last.
Speaker 3 (43:03):
Year, and I came to terms with a lot of
what I guess I'm seeking in my partners and what
I'm seeking in myself now because my good dad was
just some guy who cared so much about trying to
be good to kids that he wasn't afraid if it
was feminine weird, like ugly strange. This was obviously before
(43:28):
every gay guy was called a groomer and he definitely
was gay coded even though he was straight. So, you know,
shout out to Brian wherever you are in the universe, like,
thank you for at least giving me something to aspire
to if I wanted to raise kids.
Speaker 2 (43:43):
And he's dead, so we don't have to bleep his name.
Speaker 3 (43:47):
His name is Brian. I don't remember there. I do
remember their last name. I'm not gonna say it.
Speaker 2 (43:52):
Yeah, can I ask?
Speaker 1 (43:54):
Can we just like, because I know we're running out
of time, I really want to know if you all
want to be parents, because I have no idea.
Speaker 2 (43:59):
I actually don't know the answer to this question. I
say it's I'm like in the middle.
Speaker 4 (44:04):
I feel like if I find the right person for sure,
but also I also see a world where I don't
have parents, and I actually want to.
Speaker 2 (44:13):
I have so many, like my siblings have.
Speaker 4 (44:15):
One of my siblings has kids, and I kind of
want to start leading into like nieces and nephews and
being like the gun Cale and like my best friend
she has a daughter whose birthday is coming up that
I was like, I visited when I was in New York,
and I was like, I actually really want to like
be in this little girl's life and maybe have kids
(44:37):
do that lens.
Speaker 2 (44:37):
So it's like I'm kind of I've.
Speaker 4 (44:38):
Been thinking about it more and more because there's some
moments where I'm like, I'm not necessarily willing to stop
the train on the tracks when it comes to like
sacrificing a lot of the things that comes with parenthood.
Speaker 2 (44:50):
And I know some parents are.
Speaker 4 (44:51):
Like, you don't have to sacrifice anything, But if I
have like an important gig or something, I don't know
if I'm going to sacrifice it to go to the kids' school,
you know, well for the soccer game or the theater thing.
Speaker 2 (45:02):
Like I just don't know.
Speaker 4 (45:03):
Like I'm like right now, I'm in the mindset that
I would not, but I do see myself one day
possibly having kids if I meet the right person, I'm
so down for.
Speaker 2 (45:12):
I don't know if I would be a good parent,
but I'm into it.
Speaker 5 (45:15):
See.
Speaker 3 (45:15):
Oh, that last part I think is the hottest thing
I've ever heard about parenting is like I think I
could be a good parent or no, actually that's a lie.
Speaker 2 (45:25):
I just I don't have the kindness.
Speaker 3 (45:27):
I don't have like all that grace and generosity and
warmth and like patience really for children that I was
talking about with my neighbor, I don't have it, and
I always had this fantasy of having kids with the
right person, the person who did have that. But I
think that's the issue with a lot of people's idea
(45:48):
of parenting, because you're still gonna have to be in
there too. You're gonna have to figure out how you
guys work together, what trauma you're willingly gonna pass down,
and ultimately, if you're willing to like make the sacrifices
of being something that literally only exists, to give your
life over to that tiny little creature that's gonna suck
(46:10):
it all and maybe someday like own a bank or
whatever parents want. I have a dog too, so it's
kind of like I'm already parenting her.
Speaker 1 (46:17):
I can't have a kid and a dog. And you
forgot it was Father's Day? Did you not get anything.
Speaker 4 (46:23):
Medicine right now that I got to give her jobs
for I am a full mother that works two jobs
and loves their kids.
Speaker 2 (46:29):
It never stops with gentle hands in the heart of
a fatter So I loved Reba's my dad. The way
I see it, missus h is a way better dad.
Than you. Come on, dad, behind son, what about you?
Speaker 1 (46:44):
Ben, I'm curious. I definitely want kids. I definitely want kids.
Today's my nine year anniversary, which in gay is like,
you know, fifty years insane.
Speaker 2 (46:54):
So it's about time the anniversary. Thank you.
Speaker 1 (46:57):
I've always known I wanted to have kids. I've always
known since I was very young. I have twenty two
first cousins on my mom's side, big, big, big Italian families.
It's crazy, it's wild, and I was there for the
birth of so many of them. And I, you know,
you always want to do better, and I know that
I won't be perfect this trauma. No, I'm gonna you know,
I'm not going to be perfect as a parent. But
(47:19):
I think like our job as parents is to train
kids to be adults. And I see so many people
who these days are just like letting their kids do anything.
They take it for granted for us to have a child,
like I believe in adoption, but it's hard for queer
people to have kids. I would love to have a
baby to start, like, I would really love to have
like a little newborn baby.
Speaker 2 (47:39):
That's fifty thousand dollars right off the top.
Speaker 1 (47:42):
If it's not you know, if it's not a surrogate,
if that's just a domestic adoption, and so like, fatherhood
has been quite inaccessible to me. And I love a
number of foster kids that are in my life through
my partner, and we love them, but I they're moms.
I think all the time like they some of these
kids could be taken out of their home. I'm like,
(48:02):
you're gonna have to kill me. You want to take
my kid out my home who's been there for years
and years and years. So yes, I want to be
your father. I want to try to do a better
job than the job that was done for me. And ultimately,
I think that it makes life worth living. Like I
think that my biggest mistake in life was thinking in
life was all about me and I am actually a
(48:24):
tiny piece of this world. I don't matter as one thing.
I matter by the impact that I can make in multiples,
and that means I have to be giving out into
the world. And I think creating a little creature to
go and multiply that impact is a special gift.
Speaker 3 (48:39):
Oh, Ben, your hormones they're stronger than your logic.
Speaker 2 (48:42):
They got you, I mean.
Speaker 4 (48:44):
But also I think we can lead the next generations
being great qu.
Speaker 2 (48:48):
Uncles, which queer uncles, yes, and who does it?
Speaker 4 (48:51):
I would love to be the cool you know uncle
that comes in and like picks you up from a
party because you're too afraid to call your parents because
you are little wasted, you know what I mean. Like
I want to be that safe space where we can
go talk and I can take a shop and I'll
do all the things.
Speaker 1 (49:07):
You know, like have real conversation, because it takes a village,
I does.
Speaker 2 (49:11):
You have to be a part of the village is important.
Speaker 1 (49:13):
I to these these fox kids call me Uncle Ben,
and they love me, and they love to see me,
and they run up when I'm there, and they you know,
every once in a while they'll open up, and you know,
one of the older boys will sometimes will be like,
you know, I miss my dad, he said to me
randomly one day. And his dad was heavily abusive to him.
And it's hard for me to think about him being
literally permanently blind because of the abuse of his father
(49:37):
and still saying I missed my father, and it's like wow,
like we to open up to me was a level
of trust, like to me being a father and basically
masculinity that isn't toxic, is about love and strength and
safety and security. And I see men this in cell
culture that's coming up, where like Eve has said in
the past, men see the world through other men's eyes,
(50:00):
and it's become this anti woman thing, like we hate women,
we hate femininity, and I think like the perfect masculine
person is a person who also is feminine as well.
Like that's why I love queernesses and identity and where
when I think of my masculinity, it's like through a
queer lens. Is like it's about love and strength and
safety insecurity and undoing that nasty lens and not looking
(50:23):
at the world through the eyes of men, because unfortunately,
historically that has been destruction and violence and hatred.
Speaker 2 (50:29):
And this has been really helpful guys.
Speaker 1 (50:31):
You know, I obviously I'm always gonna look for a
chance to trauma dum.
Speaker 2 (50:34):
No, but thank you for sharing. I'm glad you did.
Speaker 3 (50:37):
I also just think it's a lot of the conversation
that is subtextually happening right now. You know, a lot
of the support for our current president is from young
straight males who feel like they they've gotten crushed down,
that there's no space for them, that people aren't thinking
(50:57):
about them.
Speaker 2 (50:58):
And I know, I know that.
Speaker 3 (51:00):
They have literally had all of history to work with.
But we also can't completely disenfranchise somebody just because they
have a history of being at the top, especially if
these kids don't get to live that history. My uncle
is like a political activist, a life coach.
Speaker 2 (51:18):
Shout out h soul.
Speaker 3 (51:19):
He's doing a whole series speaking about masculinity and femininity
and how both presences need to exist within every parent,
specifically to foster the idea for your child that it
is good to be a strong man, and it is
good to be a strong woman, and it is good
to be a strong I'm going to fight him on
(51:41):
the day them thing eventually, but be a.
Speaker 1 (51:44):
Good person, be a strong person. Yeah, embrace the best
of both worlds.
Speaker 3 (51:48):
And that's what we're that's what we're really here about.
Is we're here to show you know that just because
you are born a certain way or fit into a
certain social boundary, whether or not you believe in them,
doesn't mean you can't be a good person.
Speaker 2 (52:08):
Hike.
Speaker 4 (52:08):
All right, y'all, it's our favorite part of the show.
It's our high key. Let's talk about it. Evie, what
are you high key about this week?
Speaker 3 (52:15):
Okay, okay, this week, I'm so high key because I'm
splitting it in two again.
Speaker 2 (52:21):
I've already talked about them a little. I cannot wait.
Speaker 3 (52:25):
King of Drag is premiering this week on Revery, which
is a free queer streaming app network. I'm so excited
to see these kings, like this is the representation I've
been wanting to see, just to be like, yeah, different
kinds of queer art can exist, sure.
Speaker 4 (52:41):
Until you like have a show that like normalizes and
centers something like people don't really understand what it is
or that it could even be.
Speaker 3 (52:50):
And the other half of this is twenty eight years Later,
also comes out this week. There are many cords of death,
some of Biss in office. So I'm so high key
about like twenty eight years of King of Drag.
Speaker 4 (53:12):
Speaking of shout out to Reverie actually invited me to
that premiere party that is happening for King of Drag,
so I'm gonna go and support nice.
Speaker 2 (53:20):
It's going to be really really fun.
Speaker 4 (53:22):
And shout out to Damien Pallaccini, who was also a
host i mean a podcast and he runs Reverie he's
like the CEO of Reverie, and so he's like.
Speaker 2 (53:31):
Oh my god, can I come on to talk about it?
Speaker 4 (53:32):
I was like, Evie and I are obsess We're very
excited about King of Dragon. We're so excited to watch
what you all are doing. All right, Ben, what about you?
Speaker 1 (53:40):
I'm high key watching and loving Sirens on Netflix. It's
a limited series starring Millie Allcock, Julianne Moore, Megan Fahe
and Kevin Bacon. And I'm really really into it. It's
a dark comedy really about two sisters, and the story
unfolds over one weekend out a billionaire beach compound on
(54:02):
a fictitious island near Martha's vineyard.
Speaker 6 (54:04):
Did I know you as his sister?
Speaker 2 (54:06):
I'm sure I've mentioned her. Yeah. It's quite the house.
Do you have here? No, ch sister, you have here?
Not a huge resemblance, is there?
Speaker 4 (54:15):
No?
Speaker 1 (54:15):
And the story unfolds over one weekend out a billionaire
beach compound on a fictitious island near Martha's vineyard. And
it just took me on a ride in a cliff,
an elusive cliff.
Speaker 2 (54:28):
It was.
Speaker 1 (54:28):
I just really enjoyed it. I thought the acting was phenomenal.
I thought the story was so much fun. And what
I really loved about it is it's actually adapted from
a play, and I thought that was really cool. Plays
have such incredible interpersonal dynamics, and you could see how
those sisters were originally written for the stage. Milly Alcock
was in Game of Thrones. She played young Raniera.
Speaker 5 (54:50):
If you wish to be restored as a you'll need
to kill me, So do it and be done with
all this bulder.
Speaker 1 (54:58):
You know, obviously she was great in Game of Thrones,
but this was a character much closer to her reality,
and she played it exceptionally well. And I really liked
getting into, like thinking about the cultish nature of being
in the world of very wealthy people. And I have
been in that world of very wealthy people at their
houses and at their things, and how you have to
(55:19):
treat them, and how it can be a really nasty,
weird dynamic, and I think they captured it perfectly. So
I don't know, there's murder, there's cults, there's cliffs, there's billionaires.
Speaker 2 (55:30):
What else could you ask for? Sirens on Netflix?
Speaker 4 (55:33):
It's very Greek mythology too. Yeah, that's what it's rooted in.
It's a really great show. I'm so happy you watched it.
Speaker 2 (55:40):
Yeah, and we love Netflix here, so it's my Roman Empire.
Speaker 4 (55:43):
Yes, Okay, I'm going to jump in because I'm high
key saying this is the song of the summer. It
is ou La La by Justine Sky and k Tranada.
It's a song that I can't stop playing. It's absolutely incredible.
I mean, once k tr Nada gets on a song
with one of the R and B garlies, it just
completely takes off into like a rocket shimp and it's
(56:03):
just a moment and I'm I'm.
Speaker 2 (56:05):
Just obsessed with that song. I think it's been a minotints.
Speaker 4 (56:08):
Justine's guy has kind of come back into out of
her influencer era. She was hanging out, you know, she
hangs out with Kylie and Hailey and all the girls
and Kendle.
Speaker 2 (56:19):
But it was like, okay, girl.
Speaker 4 (56:20):
I remember meeting her the first She was one of
the first celebrities I met our names that I met
when I first moved to LA when I was working
for a fashion magazine called Code and we were shooting
her and she was such like a sweet girl and
she had so much going on then, and I think
she took a little bit of a break and now
she's kind of re emerging into the spotlight.
Speaker 2 (56:40):
Everything happens when it's supposed to happen.
Speaker 4 (56:41):
I feel like I've learned so much and everything happened
for a reason. And so if you haven't listened to it,
ooh La La is the song of the summer, and
I'm obsessed with it. Play about every pool party. It works,
it hits. Everybody's gonna be asking you, wait, who is this?
Speaker 2 (56:56):
It works even if you don't have a pool.
Speaker 3 (56:59):
It automatically springs it up like Jesus by the beach.
Speaker 4 (57:02):
Yes, in the bathtop. Yes, I mean while you're cooking
I don't know food. Just play it all the time.
I'm streaming it constantly. I'm very, very excited. So I'm
I keep obsessed with that.
Speaker 2 (57:13):
That's our show.
Speaker 1 (57:14):
Yeah, another episode down and join us next week to
hear my interview with the Great test Holiday.
Speaker 4 (57:20):
I'm so excited, which honestly, I'm obsessed with her. I've
loved her career. I think she's been such a powerhouse
in the fashion industry and changing and shifting how we
appreciate bodies all together, and so I'm so excited to
hear you on conversation.
Speaker 2 (57:34):
Yeah, just wait, we go there, Ryan, It's gonna be great.
I bet all right, y'all until next week.
Speaker 3 (57:40):
Stay messy, stay obsessed, and stay hi key.
Speaker 2 (57:44):
Bye bye.
Speaker 1 (57:47):
If you're high keen loving our show, then take a
second to follow or subscribe so you never miss an episode.
And while you're at it, rate us, drop a review
and tell your friend Cis.
Speaker 4 (57:56):
And of course, if you want to keep the highkey
keep going, join us on Instagra and TikTok at high
Key here and on Patreon, where we're dropping bonus content
every single.
Speaker 2 (58:06):
Wake see there.
Speaker 1 (58:09):
Kai Key is a production of iHeart Podcasts as part
of the Outspoken Network. This show is created and executive
produced by Peno, Keith Ryan, Mitchell, Evey Oddley, and Spoke Media.
Speaker 3 (58:19):
Our showrunner is Tyler Green. Our producers are Jenna Burnett
and Tess Ryan. Our video lead is Bo Delmore, and
our audio engineer is Sammy Sirez. Executive producers for Spoke
Media are Travis Slamont Ballinger and Aleah Tavicolian. Our iHeart
team is Jess Crime Chicch and Sierra Kaiser.
Speaker 2 (58:36):
Our theme music is by Kayan Hersey.
Speaker 4 (58:38):
And our show art is by Work by Work with
photography by Eric Carter.
Speaker 1 (58:42):
Our marketing lead is Jerome Ware from Shorefire Media.
Speaker 3 (58:47):
And then he doesn't even want anything anyways. If you
do have a dad in your life, He's like, I
don't know, just to tie I go. So I want
to watch the game and get a blow job. I
just watched a whole segment on it last night. Father's
Day's not the tea
Popular Podcasts
On Purpose with Jay Shetty
I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!
The Breakfast Club
The World's Most Dangerous Morning Show, The Breakfast Club, With DJ Envy And Charlamagne Tha God!
The Joe Rogan Experience
The official podcast of comedian Joe Rogan.