Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
I believe in a future where everyone can express themselves
in whatever way they want, and I think that is
the function of queerness, is to show people what is
possible within their own personal liberation.
Speaker 2 (00:15):
Thank you, Happy Friday, girlies, and welcome to High Key.
Speaker 3 (00:21):
I'm bet o'keith, I'm Ryan Mitchell and oddly and today, y'all,
we have a fabulous guest joining us, Jake Wesley Rogers,
amazing singer songwriter. I mean we're talking about everything from
religion to radical.
Speaker 4 (00:35):
Freedom, I mean living out loud.
Speaker 3 (00:38):
I mean, of course his brand new album In the
Key of Love, which y'all better be listening to. But
I am so excited that he's on the show.
Speaker 4 (00:44):
Get ready. But first let's dive into our High Key Key.
Let's see how long date last? Wait?
Speaker 2 (00:59):
EVI I saw on Instagram that like, mister Beast almost
killed you.
Speaker 4 (01:03):
Okay, no, mister Beast did try.
Speaker 5 (01:07):
Mister Beasts attempted murder upon me and my friends, knowing
that we are American humans who don't actually read directions
all the time.
Speaker 4 (01:16):
So are you hanging out with mister beas? Like why
is he even being brought up right now? Oh?
Speaker 5 (01:20):
Okay, because like he sent me one of those press
kit thingies, you know how like people who have brands
and companies and stuff send you things because they think
you're a really good influencer and so you like take
pictures with them sometimes. But this time I actually kind
of did. He sent me a whole less like s'mores kit.
Speaker 2 (01:38):
H like Graham crackers, cookies, chocolate, all all the shenanigans,
including a little like candle that was like she was
a serious candle. She had four wicks. That was quad wickan.
Speaker 6 (01:50):
Oh, I love a candle with a wick.
Speaker 4 (01:52):
Like Sterno, like a Sterno candle to heat food, right, like,
oh like that type of candle. I guess I didn't
even know.
Speaker 5 (01:59):
I didn't know there were different types of candles other
than like vegan soy and then whatever you get at Walgreens.
Speaker 4 (02:05):
And like woodwick. That's the candles I like.
Speaker 6 (02:07):
I like that.
Speaker 4 (02:07):
Okay, see yeah, like I'm familiar with shit like that.
Speaker 5 (02:10):
This had like it was like a candle, right, and
then it had four little chunks of what looked like
like chocolate pieces. Already I couldn't tell because it was dark.
I didn't read the directions. I don't know we lit
that shit it was lit. We shared horror stories around
the campfire because like this was all kind of closing
out my anniversary weekend with Doug.
Speaker 4 (02:32):
We'll throw back to our wedding episode, if you know.
Speaker 5 (02:35):
I am married and wearing a ring today because it
felt appropriate with the rest of the rings.
Speaker 4 (02:41):
I had a.
Speaker 3 (02:43):
Shout out to traditionalism, exactly.
Speaker 5 (02:47):
Traditionalism when it matches my fit. But we were just
like sharing stories. The key is over and we're like, okay,
we should go home. Let's put this candle like.
Speaker 4 (02:57):
Down way, Yeah, let's put the candle down.
Speaker 5 (03:00):
And we realized that, like we put the lid underneath it,
so there was no way to like, you know, just
easily close it out. I wasn't gonna just like huck
to it into it or any shit. And my husband's like, yeah,
I don't know, let's just like dump some water on it.
And so the lawyer, Yeah, the lawyer, he's like chatting
with the friends around the table, and I'm taking just
(03:21):
a little glass of cigarette ashtray water and I just
like poured it and suddenly it fucking explodes. Okay, I
(03:42):
almost killed my friends and I did absolutely nothing about it.
But it's okay because mister beast legally protected himself, like
it's there on the side of the box, like this
ship could blow up.
Speaker 4 (03:55):
Not put water in this and you said, wait a minute.
Speaker 6 (03:57):
Well, I'm happy you live to tell this to or this.
Speaker 3 (04:00):
This reminds me because I actually just got a when
you're playing what is it? Not like Dirty Santa, but
like the Secret Santa.
Speaker 6 (04:11):
Yeah, like white Elephant.
Speaker 4 (04:12):
I ordered.
Speaker 3 (04:13):
My gift for someone to add to the pot was
one of those like table top fire places that you
can make. I got that Amazon email saying you need
to stop immediately using this product because it's catching on
flames and kept like it's I'm like I don't know
those people that were at that party, and so I
(04:35):
can't like relay the message like hey, y'all, don't actually
use this gift because Amazon is now learning me that
I can be refunded to stop using it because it's
been catching on fire and it's been ruining me.
Speaker 4 (04:46):
People's like fire that like caused the recall.
Speaker 6 (04:54):
Can you imagine I, like.
Speaker 3 (04:57):
Some cholate, I'm asking for a reason why the wildfires
happened here.
Speaker 4 (05:02):
I don't even joke like that. They'll be an investigation.
Speaker 3 (05:04):
Yeah, Like it's insane when you really like think about it,
and I'm like, oh my goodness, those things they look
so cute.
Speaker 6 (05:10):
They never looked like it was a beautiful set.
Speaker 3 (05:13):
I spent some good little money on it, and I
was shocked to know that I don't never be able
to use it.
Speaker 5 (05:19):
Like, yeah, well, I mean they probably did. It's like
a nice white elephant gift. You know, you gave them
a bomb.
Speaker 4 (05:26):
What did you get? I got, My god, I got
kind of like the crappy into the stick.
Speaker 3 (05:33):
I got like a really cute actually like black kind
of tote bag from like H and M. So I
spent like fifty dollars a night, like whoever whatever that bag.
Speaker 6 (05:42):
I started like.
Speaker 2 (05:43):
Fifty dollars on that bomb, and all I got was
this fucking H and M bag.
Speaker 3 (05:47):
You know what, I kind of can't Well, the bag
is cute.
Speaker 6 (05:50):
Actually, I don't hate the bag. I haven't used it yet.
Speaker 4 (05:52):
I actually liked the bag.
Speaker 2 (05:54):
Yeah, I me use it to hate on it though.
Bit She's like, yeah, I hate this, this crappy little gift.
Speaker 5 (06:01):
That's actually when you think about the fact that I
only paid a bomb for it.
Speaker 4 (06:09):
Oh no, that was me. No more terrorism. What's up?
With y'all. What's new, What's what's hot, what's up with
the kids?
Speaker 3 (06:17):
You know, life has been I think it's been busy.
It's been good.
Speaker 6 (06:21):
I mean, it's officially Leo season.
Speaker 4 (06:23):
Shout out to.
Speaker 3 (06:24):
That Nightmare or the Best Time to be Alive, which
honestly I agree with the latter. And so I have
been trying to figure out what I want to do
for my birthday this year, and I have so much
anxiety around birthdays. I've feel like I talked about it
on the show before, and so I'm still trying to
figure it out. I'm thinking I'm having like a little
(06:45):
pool party next Sunday, but you know, I also am
simultaneously very nervous and no one.
Speaker 4 (06:50):
Will show up and I'll just be like, you know
you are.
Speaker 6 (06:56):
It's not true. I don't have a lot of friends.
Speaker 3 (07:00):
I have only maybe like I have a lot of
like really wonderful people that I share community with, but
like I'm a core group of.
Speaker 2 (07:07):
All these people are going to be in our comments
after this, like oh someone of my fucking friends that
I know, like ten thousand of our listeners are just
people who literally are like I'm here for Ryan.
Speaker 3 (07:17):
No, that is not it's true. It's not true when
I said that, But I don't know. It's just I
think birthdays just remind me of like at a time
of like reflection, and then you're just constantly reminded of
all the changes that have taken place in your life
and all the things.
Speaker 6 (07:35):
And so I don't think I'm a typical Leo when.
Speaker 4 (07:38):
It comes to birthday season.
Speaker 3 (07:39):
I feel very like nervous around it and almost want
to just spend it to myself. But my friend was like,
you'll regret not doing something. Just do it, because I
would get serious fomo. Everyone everyone knows that about me.
So I've been in birthday planning mode. How about you, Ben,
How are you doing?
Speaker 2 (07:55):
I'm doing okay. I'm just taking one day at a time.
I'm kind of excited tonight. I'm going to connect Etiquette
to see La Trece Royale. She's doing a cabaret show
and I'm really excited. We're going with my in laws.
Speaker 6 (08:05):
How far is Connecticut?
Speaker 4 (08:07):
Why?
Speaker 5 (08:07):
Yeah, it's like touching New York. But I still, y'all
love going to Connecticut.
Speaker 4 (08:12):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (08:12):
Well, Maddie is from Connecticut, so waspy coastal elite. So
I do go see my beautiful family in Connecticut quite
a bit. But I'm excited to see Latrees. I'm forgetting
the venue that we're going to because they got us
the tickets. But I love going out and supporting live entertainment.
And we're talking about live entertainment last week, so I'm
really excited about that. I'm like, maybe maybe I want
to do a cabaret show, or maybe we need a
(08:34):
little three person show.
Speaker 4 (08:35):
I don't know. I just love live entertainment, so I'm
going to be doing I would never do a cabaret show.
Oh's all done.
Speaker 6 (08:41):
I would never.
Speaker 3 (08:42):
I'm like, I'm a theater girl lee, but I leave
that to the girls who are actual like theater girl lies.
Speaker 4 (08:47):
Oh dude, Like.
Speaker 2 (08:48):
Look at lou Anne Della Steps, you know what I
mean from her househouse of New York.
Speaker 3 (08:52):
I'm not a fifty year old white woman not yet
like to pay her bills.
Speaker 4 (08:55):
Okay, but some of us are.
Speaker 1 (08:59):
You know, It's true.
Speaker 3 (09:00):
And if you identify as that, shout out to you.
I just am not the type of like.
Speaker 4 (09:05):
All that jazz. I'm not that girl. I'm not doing
Oh Ryan, we are totally doing a show together, doing
it well.
Speaker 2 (09:12):
I think solo shows can be a really good stepping
stone and I've been missing like acting, and we were talking,
I was talking, I really am an actor, and I'm
I'm really talented one. I got into like some amazing
schools and had all these opportunities, and it just was
hard because I was like a fat, black queer person,
Like how many opportunities were there?
Speaker 3 (09:29):
Really?
Speaker 2 (09:29):
And I feel like solo shows are a great way
to just like build your own success. And what I've
really been thinking about lately is like building and like
what does it look like to like make your own
opportunities as so many opportunities are like doors are closing
for queer people, for black people, for folks like us,
and so yeah, like I think there's something really.
Speaker 4 (09:47):
Exciting about that.
Speaker 2 (09:47):
It's actually kind of why I'm excited about the interview
did Ryan, because I was just listening to it and
it's like I was thinking about my friend Ashley Della Rosa,
who was like my good Judy since middle school. She
was like a finalist on the Voice and and it
took her years and years and years till now she's
starring in a Broadway show and she's doing all of
those things and your guest today feels like someone who
(10:08):
has had this really beautiful journey where it's like they're
doing the thing, they're doing the work, but they're not
really at the peak pinnacle yet. But it doesn't mean
that as they should be. As they should be, but
yet you talk about and we'll get it. I'm gonna
let you introduce the package.
Speaker 4 (10:21):
Kay, you were just you were eating it good, but
I did.
Speaker 2 (10:24):
But I just as you talk about in this interview
that's coming up right after the break, you really do
such a great job at like giving him his flowers.
We'll also like naming that like this is a journey
and like you have to appreciate each step of it.
So I'm really excited. Do you want to tell folks
who's joining us today? I'm high key yeah, Okay, so
let's talk about it. I mean, I'm so excited that
(10:45):
Jake Wesley Rodgers is joining us on the show. I mean,
if you do not know who this is, he's a
brilliant singer songwriter. I mean literally got to start at
fifteen at on America's got talent quickly, you know, had
the ups and downs, but rose to fame because he
represents is just like a theatrical, emotional pop just revolutionary.
Speaker 6 (11:05):
In a lot of ways.
Speaker 3 (11:06):
I mean, he really sings about love and exemptance, and
this is what his most recent album is all about.
And I mean, when you're getting praised by the Elton
John hot On out girly, something.
Speaker 6 (11:17):
Must be right.
Speaker 4 (11:18):
So you must be doing something right.
Speaker 3 (11:19):
I'm very, very excited that he was able to join
us on the show to talk all about his new
album and the Key of Love and so much more
and prepare yourself. They might be a little shade about
the sis straight men who are like queer.
Speaker 6 (11:31):
Baiting and shit, we're diving in, so stick around for that.
Speaker 3 (11:35):
Hike you.
Speaker 6 (11:38):
Oh my god, Hi.
Speaker 3 (11:39):
Jake Wesley Rogers, thank you for being on the show.
Speaker 1 (11:43):
It's so good to see you again.
Speaker 3 (11:45):
I know, I was literally sitting once I found out
we were talking.
Speaker 6 (11:49):
I was like, when's the last time I saw Jake?
Speaker 3 (11:51):
Was it we O Pride when he performed Was it
hearing his voice when I was doing radio? I don't know,
but I'm so I'm happy that we have reconnected at
this moment in time. It feels very natural and necessary.
Speaker 4 (12:04):
How are you doing.
Speaker 1 (12:05):
I'm quite well today. It's so good to see you
and to be connected through all these different points in time.
Speaker 3 (12:12):
I know, it's really wonderful when you think about it.
I also wanted to say, like, congratulations on in the
Key of Love?
Speaker 4 (12:19):
Are you kidding me? What a great album?
Speaker 1 (12:22):
Thank you so much.
Speaker 6 (12:24):
One of my favorite songs on this album is Happy Accident.
Speaker 3 (12:27):
I thought that was such an anthem of sorts. It
also kind of feels like the perfect coming of age
song that could be this monumented world building moment that
you you hear in a film, are.
Speaker 4 (12:44):
You see on a musical show?
Speaker 1 (12:46):
Like?
Speaker 6 (12:46):
It just felt like it represents so much.
Speaker 3 (12:48):
And this album just wasn't talking about the hard things,
but it was talking about the lightness of even a
moment that you got high with your mom for the.
Speaker 1 (12:56):
French time colum with my mom, And I was.
Speaker 6 (13:00):
Like, wait, what does that even mean?
Speaker 4 (13:02):
To tell me?
Speaker 3 (13:03):
What tell me about y'all? Tell me about the moment
you lit up with your mom?
Speaker 1 (13:07):
You want that exact moment?
Speaker 3 (13:09):
Absolutely really good that I could never do that from
I'm from Nashville. There's no way my mama would ever.
Speaker 1 (13:17):
I am from Missouri, so who knows?
Speaker 3 (13:21):
No.
Speaker 1 (13:21):
I I have been pretty well sober from really everything
for quite a while. And Christmas I was home a
few years ago. I'm like, yeah, twenty twenty two Christmas
and my parents and I were going to see Avatar two.
Speaker 2 (13:39):
Ah.
Speaker 4 (13:39):
Yeah, so you needed to kind of prepare for that lot.
Speaker 1 (13:41):
Well, my mom, like my mom, you know, she has
her her at that time, it was I think just
like medical so she you know, she she would just
have you know, yeah, in a very like mom way,
just have her a little edible. And but before the movie,
I was like, hey, Mom, can I have someone? She
was like, are you sure? I was like, yeah, Like,
(14:01):
what's the worst that can happen?
Speaker 4 (14:03):
That smoking?
Speaker 1 (14:05):
Oh no, no, no, I did in college.
Speaker 6 (14:07):
Okay, be like what back, guys, Yeah, since you were sober.
Speaker 1 (14:10):
I did in college And it always made me really paranoid.
The last time was just an absolute The last time
before that was an absolute disaster of the cheese eak
factory that I don't want to relive, but I'm so sorry.
So I was like, what's the worst thing to happen?
And you know, anyway, we're at Avatar to the Shape
of Water, I think that's what it's called. And about
halfway through I didn't really feel anything. And I leaned
(14:30):
over to my mom and I was like, are you
feeling anything? She's like no, and you want some more?
And I was like, yeah, why not. That's like the
last thing you're supposed to do with edibles. That's like,
that's like rule number one. And do you know what
the last hour of that movie is.
Speaker 4 (14:45):
To be honest, it's a war.
Speaker 1 (14:48):
It's a literal war. So it hit. It hit like
and I hadn't I hadn't done anything like that so long.
I disassociated for my body. I was in this little
room and I was music in this little room. And
the beautiful thing is I did go home and I
wrote a song called Window that I loved, the song
Windows song on the album, but I came up before
(15:08):
and so it turned you know, I ended up. The
experience was really funny and really beautiful. But my mom
really did overdose me, which is kind of awesome.
Speaker 6 (15:18):
You know, And sometimes you need little moments like that to.
Speaker 4 (15:22):
Connect to you and.
Speaker 1 (15:24):
Forever, forever.
Speaker 3 (15:26):
Yeah, And it became a beautiful lyric in this moment,
you know, And I think that really speaks to, like
I said, the range of this project. It's why I'm
so fast I'm so fascinated with you because it's there's
been so many chances. It seems like that you've had
moments to just kind of give up and to to
(15:47):
just kind of stop. And even though you took even
like a break when you did receive your your diagnosis,
and then this album talking about faith in your relationship
to it, I just I had so many follow up questions,
right I was like, how did your relationship to your
faith change when you received your diagnosis?
Speaker 4 (16:06):
Is do you feel like you're rooted in faith right now?
Speaker 1 (16:11):
It's a great question. I just have one of those
hearts that's just for whatever reason, I'm so enamored, fascinated
interested in religion in general. I don't consider myself Christian.
I love the this is great May Angelo quote when
she's asked when or she said, whenever somebody told her
(16:35):
they're a Christians, she'd go already.
Speaker 6 (16:41):
Because what.
Speaker 1 (16:43):
Yeah, Well, because it's you know, the last four or
five years, I've kind of been on a self guided seminary,
and I guess by that, I mean it's like I've
really like, I spend a lot of my time reading
about these things because you know, we both grew up
in the Bible belt, I just had this feeling the
whole time. I just had this big bullshit meter and
(17:06):
I was like, what's actually going on here and what
does this actually say? And what I found is that
religion in general, but Christianity in particular, belongs to the oppressed.
And it's a story. It's a story of a revolution,
it's a story of trying to overthrow the power structures
(17:28):
of the time. And what happens when you do that,
you get crucified, you know. And so when I see
it through that lens, like when I see especially when
you think about so many you know, the civil rights movement,
the ending of slavery, they these forces belonging to people
that don't have any power at all, literally no power
(17:51):
helped them reach that that, you know. And there's so
many examples of that throughout the millennia, of the power
of faith, and like, who actually who actually gets to
dictate what these texts mean? Because I really do believe that.
I guess what I say is what makes me so
(18:11):
sad is that these texts have been off limits for us,
for queer people. Yeah, And what I want to, I
guess remind people of is that they don't get to
tell us what belongs to us or what doesn't belong
to us. I'm not telling you to go become religious.
I'm not religious. I don't want to go to church
or anything. But I think I definitely believe in something
(18:34):
bigger than me. I definitely love praying. I love all
of these things because it belongs to me. It doesn't
belong to people who have power only.
Speaker 3 (18:44):
Yeah, and it shouldn't be twisted and weaponized for as
a tool to oppress.
Speaker 4 (18:50):
Right.
Speaker 6 (18:50):
And it's so interesting, Like you mentioned, we both grew
up in the.
Speaker 3 (18:54):
Bible belts, and that is such a specific experience. Es. Actually,
if you're growing up religious, I grew up very religious,
and I've been asked about my relationship to religion now
and I feel like, I, you know.
Speaker 4 (19:11):
I'm like very la.
Speaker 3 (19:12):
I'm like I'm spiritual now, But really I think I
am because I had to unlearn so much that was
kind of forced upon me through religion.
Speaker 4 (19:22):
But then I've.
Speaker 3 (19:23):
Realized simultaneously as like this queer adult that I am
right now, this black queer adult that I am, that
I can still have, say, have a little space in
some room a part of me that will always be
sort of religious in some ways, like when you're raised
in this thing, you're always it's hard to kind of
dissect yourself from it, right, I think it molds and
(19:46):
twisted beautifully into whatever it is now that works for you.
Speaker 4 (19:49):
But I don't.
Speaker 3 (19:50):
It's it's been a journey because I think my first thing,
and I think a lot of first things that queer
folks want to do when they have been attached to
religion is run the other way, of course, you know,
and it's and it's just it's hard to to then
come to terms with that. Reclaiming of what you're speaking
about is like, oh, no, this is actually this is
(20:11):
actually mine and it can be what it what it
is for me, and it doesn't have to align with
any of the rules that I was told to follow.
Speaker 1 (20:19):
No it doesn't. I did this event a week or
so ago with Big Freeed to so much and DC
the Best, and it was kind of like a musician's
on musicians saying, And of course her and I talked
very much about religion. She's about to put out a
gospel record, you know, It's like, and that's what I
was so excited to talk to her about. But after
this guy counts to me. Sometimes strangers say like the
(20:41):
most amazing, amazing things. It was this guy, I think
he was with his girlfriend, so I'm going to seeing
you straight, and he was just like I love when
I see like I love when I hear queer people
that talk about religion because they have to be earnest.
(21:02):
And I blew my mind because it's right. It's like
for us to talk about this a takes a lot
of bravery and courage to acknowledge probably the experience that
we've been through, or at least the experience that of
a lot of career people have been through, and it
takes us having done work to go through it, like
we have to be earnest about it, whereas people that
grow up in it and always belong in it and
(21:22):
always fit in it, they don't have to be earnest.
It's sort of this thing, so.
Speaker 4 (21:26):
I don't costume.
Speaker 1 (21:28):
I think, yeah, exactly, And you know, it's it's always
kind of funny to me. It's like I think when
people see like queer and then all of the ways
I talk about religion, it's like this contradiction. But in
my mind, I mean a lot of my heroes were
doing it, they weren't really queer, but like, you know,
I think about like Leonard Cohen. He's one of my
favorite songwriters ever, and you know, his first albums are
(21:50):
like all about Jesus, but he was, you know, this
Jewish man. So it's always interesting. It's always interesting to
me when I think people are shocked by it, because
I'm not shocked by it at all, and the fact
that it's actually one of the most natural things. It
just feels like natural. It's like it's like, yeah, I
like man, and I like like contemplating God.
Speaker 4 (22:11):
Yeah, like and then literally walk in't you go? Yeah?
Speaker 3 (22:16):
Not just might be Skittles flavored, Yeah, exactly. I think
there's what's really beautiful. And I think the word when
I think of you, I think of freedom.
Speaker 4 (22:25):
And I always wonder.
Speaker 3 (22:26):
How artists like yourself that displays such freedom in their artistry,
how are they simultaneously doing that while also playing by
the rules of like a restrictive industry. It just feels
like you have to have someone who's showing up for
you when the industry isn't.
Speaker 1 (22:44):
Definitely, and I don't take that for granted because I
think it is quite rare. Yeah, to have been able
to make an album like this right now, and I'm
so I feel so lucky, you know, not to say
that there wasn't moments where like there are disagreements creatively,
(23:05):
but and also through the eyes of the world. I
did take it. I took a lot of time off
and it wasn't off time. I wasn't like sitting over
there like.
Speaker 4 (23:17):
I help you were at some point so you can write.
Speaker 1 (23:19):
When I was really sick. Yes, I was watching TV
like it was my job.
Speaker 4 (23:23):
For sure.
Speaker 1 (23:24):
But you know, even there is like it the system
doesn't want you to stop ever ever. Yeah, and I
understand why because people people do forget pretty quickly, you know,
things things move on. But what I feel now and
(23:45):
what I'm reminding myself of now is like, well a,
I kind of in a great way. I feel like
I'm beginning again, and I feel like how much grace
is inside of that, Like that I do get to
begin again after experiencing all of that, and I just
(24:05):
I feel like an incredibly lucky artist for that reason,
and that I get to keep going is so special.
Speaker 3 (24:13):
I mean, let's have some real conversation even though we
have been let's go there. But when I see you
this incredible artist. I historically think of those moments where
we've watched like straight men, you know, like the Bensons are,
the Hairy Styles are, the list goes on, even when
it comes to film, kind of co opt or get
(24:36):
praised for co opting queerness and queer aesthetics, while I
think queer folks are still trying to struggle to like
even enter into this space and take up space. And
I wanted to know what's your take on how queerness
is received in mainstream pop today. What comes to your
mind when you think about that.
Speaker 1 (24:53):
Well, we're at a really interesting moment in history because
now queerness can be commodified hm hmm. And even a
couple of decades ago that was not true. It was
starting to be true. And in a way it's always
been true because you know, you think of any pop star,
you can name any pop stars in the last fifty years,
(25:14):
there is a relationship between what they are making publicly
and making a lot of money from, and what queer
artists have been making under under the currents of everything.
So that's that's no surprise. So where are we now, Well,
we're I think we're at an opportunity moment that we
can actually talk about these things, and I don't. I
(25:38):
think there were moments where I was you know, I'd
be like, oh, Harry Style long, you.
Speaker 4 (25:42):
Know, like, right, you get the cover of Vogue and
you're in a dress.
Speaker 1 (25:45):
Right, which that is like got Like I have a
lyric on the album god Bless the straight Man in
address Yes, Godless, I'm spilling the tea for the first
time here that is about that moment of Harry Styles
on the cover of Vogue. But I don't mean it
to shade him. I really don't, because I believe in
a future where everyone can express themselves in whatever way
(26:12):
they want, and I think that is the function of queerness,
is to show people what is possible within their own
personal liberation. So I can't stand over him and be
like mah ma ma, he don't Mary address Yeah and yeah,
but where I'm like, no, like, we did the work
and he gets to now. But hopefully, hopefully this playing
(26:32):
field is leveled. And you know, I'm not, I'm not
mad about it. But also at the end of the day, though,
we know who's making the best stuff.
Speaker 6 (26:41):
And that's the thing.
Speaker 3 (26:42):
Also, I'm like, when it works, I feel like a
lot of people forget that the audience now is we're
a lot smarter than we were maybe ten fifteen years ago,
and we see right through a lot of things. I
think that's been one of the upsides of the social media.
We're on account of being a and being able to
see through the bs quite frankly, and so when it's
(27:04):
something that really is authentic and connects, you see it,
you get it, and you're like, I want to amplify this,
And I think there's this there's this notion that like
sometimes that like queer folks don't support queer arts, are
you know, support quite a queer artists. And I always
thought that was it's something that we should always remind
(27:25):
people of ire like, oh yeah, remember, don't forget like
when it comes to your pride lineups or when it
comes to buying the music in the art and and really,
if you want to see more of this, we have
to support. But the notion that like queer folks aren't
showing up for each other when it comes to our
artistry just always has felt off to me.
Speaker 1 (27:43):
Yeah, it is off. I think there's I think it's
a yes, and like it's both and you know, it's
there is this sensation that we've all witnessed of, you know,
to be super stereotypical, like the gay man worshiping the
straight assistant or woman who's fascinating your culture. Yeah, it's
like yeah, ending like yes, mother like blah blah blah
(28:04):
blah blah. And that's a complicated thing and you know
it's My dad actually asked me about that recently.
Speaker 4 (28:11):
He was like, what is mother?
Speaker 1 (28:13):
And he that's what his mother. He's not there yet,
he will be after. He'll probably listen to this, so
he will be after. How did he I don't remember
how we were talking about it. I think we were
talking about me being on the Kusha tour and it
wasn't a no shade to because she's amazing, She's perfect,
Like this is not Cassio's problem. I really do mean
(28:33):
that she's one of a kind and an angel. But
her audience was coming to see that, you know, her
audience was coming to see the TikTok on the clock
and party and you know all of that and the
depth that she had offer, and there was this feeling
of me going up there as you know, an openly
gay guy that a lot of not and I could
(28:55):
be making this all in my head, but like a
lot of people might not really have wanted me on
that stage. And I thought about it a lot. I
contemplated a lot. It made me think of like when
I was in sixth grade and we were watching Glee.
I was watching with my family. It was the first
episode where Kurt and Blaine kiss.
Speaker 4 (29:15):
We should we should practice.
Speaker 1 (29:20):
And I remember feeling terrified. I was terrified because I
was so afraid that my parents would put two and
two together that that was me too. It was like
being seen in a way that really scared me because
I wasn't ready to be seen in that way, and
I was scared of what might happen if I was
(29:40):
seen in that way. So I think that's like the
complex psychology of querdness, where we are amazing at supporting
each other and we are on the pulse of everything,
like we're on the pulse of everything, and we do
support each other, and also we do have like probably
some of those young wounds that might keep us sometimes
(30:03):
from celebrating each other. And but it's not, like you said,
it's not that's not always the case, like right right, Yeah.
Speaker 3 (30:10):
But I also wonder, like who's making the decisions not
to say that you shouldn't be on like opening up
for Kesha, but who's making the decision because it just
musically it seems like, okay, if all the fans who
are coming, they're coming to the TikTok on the clock
and like the kind of party as you know music
that she has. And I'm not saying you can't have
a good time at a j Wesley Rodgers got so
(30:32):
I've seen you before you eat, but it did it
makes that decision to put you as an opener for Kesha?
Speaker 4 (30:38):
Does that make sense when you get that offer?
Speaker 1 (30:41):
I think she I think she like you, which is amazing.
That's even better, which is really sweet. And and I'm
not just like I wasn't saying like every shows, but
like oh no, no, no, Yeah. The truth is is like
probably most of the audiences with me, but there was
thirty percent that were drunk and really loud, and yeah,
you know, we all have that human feeling of like
the one you know, ten people can compliment you in
(31:03):
the one person comments one thing and.
Speaker 3 (31:05):
It's only that you could think about. But I just
I mean it from a perspective of like, especially as
you you have an audience, but you're building so much
and you're trying to expand. I always think about, like, well,
what's the strategy.
Speaker 1 (31:18):
Yeah, it's a good question. Yeah, I mean I was
very surprised. My first big opening tour was with Panic
at the Disco, which kind of on paper you may like,
huh yeah, And when I got the offer, I was like, oh,
that's interesting. I have more consistent fans from that tour
than any tour I have done. But you think about it,
it's like Panic the Disco is a very theatrical frontman
(31:42):
led and and and that's me. And I'm always I'm
always very surprised and illustrate people to like me, you know.
It's like you know, and I it to look out
of the crowd, like I I think most of my
fan bases is women. Wow, but there's all you know,
there's always there's always my favorite querdos and like you
know that too, Like it's not I feel like it's
(32:04):
getting more diverse too, which I which I related. But
I do like to think about this thing. I like
to think about, like who am I serving?
Speaker 4 (32:12):
Well, do you remember when you were on legendary?
Speaker 3 (32:15):
Yes, I just remember that being such a moment where
people were like.
Speaker 4 (32:18):
Now, who is that?
Speaker 3 (32:19):
Like what? Like I just and I feel like you
always you handle those moments really well where you're like
kind of unexpected in a space, but like you go
in and then you blow the everybody's mind.
Speaker 1 (32:31):
You're like how that kind of is that kind of
is like the theme of my my life. Like it's like,
you know, I get this invite, I'm like okay, like
you know, I'm I'm not. I don't know that much
about ball culture, and I was also kind of confused
why they asked me, but they did, like it wasn't
(32:52):
like well one of the I think one of the
producers saw it one of my shows and I was like, oh,
this is this belongs in Ball, which I think was
really sweet, and you know, it's you know, I'm doing
this very different thing. It's more like rock music, but
it is still it's still as the the drama and
(33:12):
the camp and the performance. And I guess I just
like saying yes to to interesting opportunities. But in retrostract,
I was like, why was I a judge on that?
You know, like it's not even really imposter syndrome. It's
just like, yeah, you're just trying to figure it out.
I'm like, I would be like way more qualified to
like do one of those like none competition shows. I'm
(33:35):
like where they're like reciting like Bible verses. You're seeing
those like they have to say they're like Matthew seven
to fourteen, and like these kids have to like say,
I was.
Speaker 4 (33:45):
Like, what, No, like a spelling bee for Bible.
Speaker 1 (33:47):
It's like spelling yeah, exactly.
Speaker 6 (33:49):
Oh wow, I hate that.
Speaker 4 (33:50):
I'm not even gonna lie.
Speaker 1 (33:51):
Yeah, I think I do too. Actually, I think I do.
Speaker 3 (33:54):
Oh, I got So you know, we're coming to the
end of this conversation, and I think for me talking
to you, like I said, the words that come to
my brain is freedom but also queer liberation and how
do we achieve that? How do What do you think
about queer liberation? What does it mean to you?
Speaker 1 (34:13):
I think it has to be individual. I think liberation
in general will have to be an individual thing that
becomes collective. And I guess that's part of it's part
of my mission. And I think especially when things are
really chaotic in the world, and they're really really chaotic,
I guess I try not so much. And I have
(34:34):
to really struggle with this because we're in a culture
where we feel like we have to comment on everything,
especially when bad things happen. Yeah, but for me, I
have found more freedom doing that internal dance and internal work,
and it has allowed me to actually show up way
better in places where I might be of service. And
(34:58):
I think as as queer people, we have more to
risk by being ourselves. Yeah, but it is always a
risk for everyone not to make it dis beautiful. This
messages for everyone. Yeah, but man to be a straight
man right now, that sounds terrible, No, to say their
life is harder than anybody.
Speaker 3 (35:18):
But I'm just like, it's restrictive, and when you feel
like you're kind of in a it's That's what comes
to my brain because I always think about how masculinity
plays itself out in queer spaces, specifically especially like CIS
queer spaces, and when you really have the opportunity to
unpack that and strive away from masks for mass culture
(35:40):
are just masculinity and the construct of it in general,
there's a real like freedom of just simply existing.
Speaker 4 (35:49):
Yes, that is so powerful.
Speaker 1 (35:51):
It is so powerful. And on that note, like to
answer your question you asked, I do think it's femininity
that will celeberate us on the problem and liberate because
that's what's imbalanced in the world everywhere. And I believe,
I like to believe that what we're witnessing right now
(36:11):
is the patriarchy realizing that it is lost and it
is fighting very very very very very hard to get
back the power that you used to have. But it's gone,
you know, it's it's gone. Like, yes, it might be
elected right now, but we are mainstream.
Speaker 6 (36:28):
Absolutely and always will.
Speaker 1 (36:31):
Be and always will be. And what we're experiencing is
terror over that fact. And that's what we have to
remember that they're on the defense. Yes we have to
fight still, but they're on the defense because they have
fear and we have love.
Speaker 4 (36:49):
Absolutely absolutely.
Speaker 3 (36:52):
I have to ask this question because it's our pivotal
question that we do on High Key one.
Speaker 4 (36:56):
You are like one of the first of mini guests,
So thank you for saying, Yes, it really is a lot.
Speaker 3 (37:00):
Socitikey has been just a really beautiful thing that we're
growing in this little baby that's blastoming as I'm wearing flowers.
What are you Hikey about?
Speaker 1 (37:10):
What am I high key about? Oh, that's a really
good question. Can it be anything?
Speaker 4 (37:17):
It could literally be anything.
Speaker 1 (37:20):
I did just finish the last season of Hacks with
my mom, and I'm really hikey about.
Speaker 6 (37:25):
Hacks, Tay, sister, Tay, are you kidding?
Speaker 3 (37:30):
Oh? Especially this last season they are doing some work
in that writer's room.
Speaker 1 (37:35):
But it's real, it's so real, y really high keys,
specifically about Jeane Smart obviously.
Speaker 3 (37:41):
Oh and then also, this is just a question that
just came to my brain. Isn't a song that you've
heard that you were like, Damn, I wish this was
my song because I'm not gonna put this on you.
But I always wonder when people heard Pink Pony Club
Are Casual by Chapelone, did they immediately like Damn, I
wish that was.
Speaker 6 (38:00):
Is there a song for you that was similar to that.
Speaker 1 (38:03):
I've had that feeling since I was young, Like I
remember when I first heard Adult's Hometown Glory when I
was like twelve, mom taste, I was like, oh, I wish.
Speaker 6 (38:20):
Wow, you were real you were going through it.
Speaker 1 (38:23):
I know you don't have a hard time me listening
to like Flora I love that I saw me recently
there was like it was like a Florence on Machine song.
I was like if you listen to this in middle school,
you have depression.
Speaker 6 (38:33):
Now me listening to misgotty ghosts.
Speaker 1 (38:38):
We are just misguted, traveling enlessly.
Speaker 4 (38:49):
Like literally, there you go.
Speaker 1 (38:51):
So I felt that more. I always like, I feel
it a lot about like a lot of older I
really don't listen. I don't and I don't do this
to be like unique, but I listened to a lot
of older music like I love Like, I love Joni Mitchell,
I love Leonard Cohen, I love Nina Simone. So those
are the people I love Beethoven. I honestly, I had
(39:12):
a brief period it was very dulus of Beethoven, which
I know is so funny, but I was just like, God,
what like.
Speaker 4 (39:19):
Wasn't he like a tortured artist? You were please?
Speaker 1 (39:22):
Oh no, I was. I was just I think this
is such a pathetic thing to admit, But I remember
I was.
Speaker 4 (39:29):
I was driving.
Speaker 1 (39:30):
This is a couple of years ago. It was like
driving so un Nashville actually, and they were doing there
was like the two undred fifty anniversary of something I
think for him, and I was like, God, he died
two and fifty years ago and people are still talking
about him. I'm still alive and no one's talking about me.
Speaker 3 (39:48):
The most fire sign thing he could no, literally literally,
I'm obsessed because it's relatable. It's so relatable where you're
just like, oh, well, I ever achieved that level.
Speaker 1 (39:58):
I tried to write a song called Jealous of Beethoven.
It wasn't very good, but it was like the idea
of was like, did my ancestors literally die? So I
good to speak jealous of Beethoven.
Speaker 3 (40:11):
Well, I'm obsessed with you. I think you are just
such a brilliant and beautiful light. And I really cherish
the fact that you we've had this moment together.
Speaker 4 (40:19):
So thank you for coming on.
Speaker 1 (40:20):
Ikey, I cherish you. Thank you for having me, and
thank you for being such a beautiful friend and supporter
over the years.
Speaker 3 (40:27):
Of course, of course, literally anything I could do. And
the next time you have a show, I would love
to be there.
Speaker 1 (40:32):
Oh please do it. To be there la opening for
Cindy law for at the Bowl. You should come work.
Speaker 4 (40:39):
Oh absolutely to that. Cindy do her big one.
Speaker 1 (40:43):
Uh huh, I.
Speaker 4 (40:44):
Know she's still kicking.
Speaker 1 (40:45):
Come come through.
Speaker 4 (40:48):
Love you so much, Love you too. Ryan. I really
enjoyed that. That was great.
Speaker 2 (40:55):
I really appreciate how you continue to push us when
we're having conversations and we're like, oh, this a list
wants to be on the show. We're gonna have this
big name, and you're like, okay, but we also need
to prioritize like making space for all sorts of folks,
especially Yeah, folks like this.
Speaker 4 (41:08):
That was wonderful. Yeah, just some piggyback off of that,
ben Uh.
Speaker 5 (41:12):
I think it's funny because you actually talked a little
bit about that how queer people maybe sometimes have issues
like supporting other queer people, And my favorite thing that
Jake hit on was like, yeah, like I see that
side of it, but also no, we don't. We all
still like hold that little space. I think we're there
for each other.
Speaker 2 (41:31):
It's just it is it's interesting to think that maybe
a part of the reason why we don't see more
Jake Wesley Rogers like in the place of gay's hearts
that everyone else who mothers is is like we're all
still a little bit hurt and scared, really at our
core to be proud of something that fucking gay.
Speaker 3 (41:56):
Yeah, I think it's so many things, right, So I've
known Jake through like I guess ten Poe moments of
his life in his career. So I've really been able
to see him grow into the place where he is now.
And for a while there he wasn't really doing much.
I mean, he was diagnosed with Crohn's disease and so
he had to take some time off. But I've seen
(42:17):
him perform at Prize. That's where I first kind of
met him, and I saw how he would light up
a stage and people were into it. But it's sort
of that thing where it's like a new artist she'd
never heard, You're like okay in.
Speaker 4 (42:31):
One ear out the other.
Speaker 3 (42:32):
And I always wonder when it comes to like our
I feel like our community always asks for like our
queer pop star or our queer artists, and then when
we start to get it, there's all these critiques about
how they're showing their queerness, whether it's like symphobia or
if it's like just something else that is existing in
these spaces, right. And I've always been very fascinated because
(42:55):
you would think, just like Chaperone, she kind of got
the silver proof, And I honestly, I see a lot
of similarities with those two, Like they are like they
perform very similar and they kind of like hold space
in the same similar way. And yes she is queer,
but there's more of a celebration around her than I
have ever seen when it comes to Jake, and it
(43:16):
used to be but it kind of that just fell
off and it's it's it's so annoying how it like
everything ebbs and flows, and to be honest, our tship
span is just so like it's.
Speaker 4 (43:27):
Like you're here there, you're alphadex.
Speaker 2 (43:30):
And society doesn't like queer men. Like I think that's
like another piece. It's like it's complicated because it's like, yes,
you're white and there's all these you know, things that
you benefit from and there's privilege. But also like I
think we're at this place where it's like society like
straight men acting queer, they don't like queer men being queer.
Speaker 3 (43:48):
For sure, which is why I wanted to know the
tea around Like there are artists like bensim Boone even
though he gets dragged, but there's artists like Harry.
Speaker 4 (43:56):
Salves, bensim Boone, I mean bad Bunny, Like they have
all been.
Speaker 3 (43:59):
Praised for kin of this, like they seem like really
great allies, but then they also when they're putting on
a dress. It's fab They're on covers of magazines, it's
all these things, and I really wanted to know from
a queer pop star, how does that impact him? And
it's you know, he is making his own statement by
you know, throwing a little shade there in one of
his songs around like, you know, God bless the straight
(44:20):
man in the dress.
Speaker 4 (44:20):
You know, like work.
Speaker 5 (44:22):
But I also I do like the he acknowledged the
fact that this is a part of what we were
fighting for. Like, yeah, I know, we as queer people
still deserve to see like ourselves reflected in that ways. Yes,
but it also is kind of magical that like we
have fabbed out a world so fabness that like straight
(44:44):
guys are pop stars wearing painted nails and stuff. I
think it's interesting because there's always spaces where you have
to like reclaim it for yourself. Like that's one of
my excuses why I really do not ever give a
shit about how fucked up my nails are, because straight
guy has got to reclaim this space. But it's always
because they have their delicate little like manicured little and
(45:07):
I'm like, no, no, no, no, I want you to remember
that this is something that.
Speaker 4 (45:10):
Should scare people.
Speaker 2 (45:12):
But I think what I struggle with is is, like,
we want to create a world that is culturally queer
because we create so much of culture and we shift
in so much of culture. That being said, what's hard
is that we're still oppressed and persecuted for it. So
it's like when you talk about like a straight male
actors playing gay and you're like, oh, but you want
gay people to be able to play straight mail actors. Sure,
(45:34):
but the problem is that like, we are not. This
is equity. We're not at equality yet, we're at equity still,
and so when we still have not had the opportunities
as queer people to be in society, in celebrated in
this queerness, it's hard to be like, well, they should
be able to do it, and this is lucky us
that they're doing. It's like, no, it's just another example
of how like, it's not the expression of our identity
that is criminalized. It is our identity, and it's who
(45:57):
we are that is the problem. Because the express of
who we are is actually really fucking cool, and everyone's
trying to do.
Speaker 3 (46:03):
It and the goalpost continues to get moved. I mean,
I immediately think about when Justin Bieber posted the clocket you
know meme on his like and use the wrong finger,
might I add you, which was my main comment about
somebody if this, if this straight man's going to do it,
do not use the index finger.
Speaker 6 (46:19):
Use the second finger. It's the index.
Speaker 3 (46:24):
It marks me because it's it's just a yet another
thing of whether we're seeing a the e get co opted,
you know, black queer lingo get co opted. It's like,
if it's going to be a part of the culture
in a larger way, which is always has and always
will be, I'm like, at least do it correctly. And
like speaking of Justin Bieber as someone who actively a
(46:45):
lot of people would say co opts you know, R
and B music and is in this space and getting
praised for it, versus like anyone else being able to
do it, like black people being able to kind of
succeed in that space.
Speaker 4 (46:57):
It's a very it's a complicating and a nuance that.
Speaker 5 (47:00):
Creation versus appreciation. But that's also why I like the
flip side of it. I think that's honestly a more
interesting perspective for me is when we see queer people
kind of reclaiming spaces and straight culture. Like you talked
a little bit about Chapel roone. I think a part
of the reason that she's gotten the praise she has
(47:21):
both from queers and you know, society at large, is
because she fit into a lot of what people expect
out of a pop star, Like she has a female
body and was doing female drag. I think it allows
her this like easier navigation. Whereas I think what's really
(47:41):
interesting with Jake, and that's also once again no shade
to Chapel, like you better use the tools that God
gave you and fuck it all upsis I think it's
interesting that Jake is tackling a lot of religion, a
lot about religion.
Speaker 2 (47:55):
Yeah, that's what's interesting because you get into the crucifixion illustration,
the sort of joke about being crucified for being oppressed,
like and being a leader against that. And that's what
we're kind of talking about when we're talking about Chapel.
It's like you make it out you're evangelizing queerness and
then you're crucified for not doing it the right way.
Speaker 4 (48:14):
But the religion.
Speaker 2 (48:15):
I went back and listened to so much of his music,
and it's interesting religion really is a really core part
of a lot of his music. And I know we've
talked about religion. I don't know if we've actually talked
about it on the show or in a pilot episode,
but I know we need to have a deeper conversation
about it. But Ryan, like, how did you feel about
that conversation? What popped into your head as you are
having that conversation.
Speaker 3 (48:35):
Well, I always find it so interesting when queer people,
especially they find like a safeness art like I find.
I find queer people talking about religion always very interesting.
I'm someone who grew up in a very religious kind
of pentecostal.
Speaker 4 (48:54):
World for so long I have my own.
Speaker 3 (48:56):
Complicated relationship with it while still finding tools of spirituality
that I use in my everyday life. And so to
know that there is someone like a Jake Wrisley Rogers
and this album and The Key of Love really centering
around like a reclamation of religion and what was told
to us about us in a lot of ways and
(49:18):
kind of restructuring that and tearing it all apart and
just existing in love. It's it's it's courage, it's bravery,
and it reminds me that all those toxic things that
I once felt around organized religion. Spirituality is there to
actually like help you connect. And if everyone could kind
(49:40):
of use that tool of like love in the ways
that Jake Wesley Rodgers is putting into the world, would
it would be.
Speaker 6 (49:47):
A fucking better place to be quite honest.
Speaker 3 (49:49):
But I was so fascinated by it because I always
just wonder, especially him being from the Midwest, how religion
has impacted him and what was the already to be
who he is today, because it's hard, like I never
imagine myself being this Ryan.
Speaker 6 (50:06):
I didn't think it was possible. I didn't think I
was able.
Speaker 3 (50:09):
To like be able to exist in also make a
career out of being myself authentically oh.
Speaker 5 (50:16):
Out of like literally that doing the most radical thing
that queer people have the power to do. And I
think there is some magic in being able to, you know,
code switch, navigate in and out of society and then
come back out and be like ha ha. But I
think the skill that we really have is the second
(50:37):
half of that, where you're just like reveling in what
you what you have to offer the world, what you
feel like, how queer you want to express. And so
I think it's interesting when you are already this radical rebel,
you know, being an out proud in Jake's case, like
openly gay man, and then going back to explore the
(50:59):
thing that lots of people have used the words to
say like it should separate you.
Speaker 4 (51:05):
I was.
Speaker 5 (51:06):
I was very hardcore like argumentative atheists. After I finally
split religion out of my life, and it's taken actually
a lot of time for me to double back and
be like, Okay, maybe exploring the ideas that are in
these religions or underneath a lot of the texts that
(51:27):
people have actively chosen specifically to manipulate the masses however
they wanted, maybe exploring the bigger idea underneath it is
not something inherently religion. Yeah, everybody around the world has invented,
not invented.
Speaker 2 (51:43):
Let me not say that everybody around the world invented
something's not the same thing. So that they can find community,
so that they can find morality, so that they can
have a shared understanding and purpose. We're all just looking
to understand each other so that we can understand ourselves.
But instead what we do is say, well, let's compartmentalize,
let's put people into these boxes. We're different, but if
(52:06):
you look at all of these religions, they're literally like.
Speaker 4 (52:08):
The same thing.
Speaker 2 (52:09):
They tell the same stories, a lot of them are
literally the same books. And I was raised Catholic and
I had such a similar reversion evie where I was like, Okay, religion,
I'm done with you, but it's like I still crave.
I was like, what would it look like to start
a church that was not a religious church at all,
but that still was a place for fellowship, but still
was a place where we could sing and feel ourselves
(52:30):
and connect to each other.
Speaker 5 (52:31):
Ohay, church that is either the Gay Club or Universalist
Unitarians totally.
Speaker 2 (52:37):
Like, But it's like, what if the gay club became
a space also for salons, became a space also to
have conversation, Like there's more to us being in community
than just dancing, than just singing, than just kiking. It's
also like, what does it look like to talk to
each other, to build together, to start to like envision
(52:57):
a world. It's like, if we believe the queerness is
the way forward, then let's just build our own queer world.
You come to church or don't show up. Either way,
we're still in it. Like you look at those Baptists,
you look at the Evangelicals. They live in their own
little world, and I'm like, we should do that with queerness.
Speaker 3 (53:12):
True, but I will say I think the ways that
I keep up my spirituality is through music totally, because
there is just nothing like gospel music. There's nothing like
that that feeling that you get, the experience that you.
Speaker 6 (53:26):
Have when you are immersed in it.
Speaker 3 (53:29):
And it's not saying that it's a holy Spirit and
all these kind of third party things that you are,
you know, led to believe as you're growing up in
the space. But for me, it really is a connection
of it connects me to a piece of safety that
I feel like I can finally relax and release.
Speaker 4 (53:45):
Can we like that's what it does? Safety?
Speaker 5 (53:47):
Yeah, yeah, we talk about that, Like I know, this
is something that I'm definitely going to have said a
million times before this podcast is over. But like I
had a universalist Unitarian minister.
Speaker 6 (54:01):
By the way, I don't even know what this is.
Speaker 5 (54:03):
Okay, So the Unitarians are strange people because they literally
are a church where the ideals of this church are, yeah,
just come in here and praise, Like we don't all
believe in the same things.
Speaker 4 (54:17):
We don't have to believe in the same things. What
simple exists bumper sticker. It literally is that is what
unitarians are.
Speaker 2 (54:24):
They are the co exist bumper sticker with every other
religious symbol on it.
Speaker 4 (54:29):
And it's actually kind of the most magical thing.
Speaker 2 (54:31):
And I remember my roommate, like some ten years back,
was a minister of music, like young gay thing out
in the streets sledding with me, like we're having our messy,
messy lives, but like every Sunday would still go and
compose these pieces.
Speaker 4 (54:46):
And I remember like grilling him one time, being.
Speaker 5 (54:49):
Like what why do you like get off at this,
Like what is it that, like you're you're going to
this church for, especially when you're already living this authentically
queer life that a lot of church goers you're a sinner.
Yeah yeah, yeah exactly, or so againstant he said to me,
We all praise in different ways. Like the most magical
(55:11):
thing about going and making music for this church of
people who don't believe in the same things is it's
about honoring the fact that there's something so human in
us that wants to connect to other people that like
you'll do it at a club you'll do it like
at the park.
Speaker 4 (55:31):
Like music is.
Speaker 2 (55:32):
Such a strong tool for that because it cuts so
much deeper than us and makes you feel like a
part makes you feel. It makes you feel. All we
want is to feel and to be able to express
those feelings to people who see and recognize them, not
always understand, but see and recognize us in our fullness
and our good and in our bad. And then to
(55:54):
find a way forward where we're like, can we just
create a set of agreements where it's like this is
what it means to be a good person, which is like,
you know, it's not everything, it's not comprehensive, but it's like,
let's agree not to murder each other, Let's agree to
be nice to each other. Let's agree to give grace
or find kindness. It's like that's what we're seeking in religion,
and it is so sad that we've been told like
(56:15):
this isn't for you because all of the things that
religion solves for in people's lives.
Speaker 4 (56:20):
Faith.
Speaker 2 (56:21):
I had a conversation with this amazing woman. She used
to run creators at Snapchat. She's a religious woman, but
I was talking about faith as a non religious person.
Faith is what I lost when I gave up religion,
and faith shows up in so many other places in
our life. But if you don't have it in this place,
then you don't have it in all these others. So
what does it look like to find faith in yourself,
(56:41):
find faith in your community, to find faith in the
fact that it's like every bad thing we've ever been through,
we have now gotten through it. And it's like so
having faith in the inevitability of our prosperity versus being
so stuck in the fear of what could go wrong
that we don't allow anything to happen in the first place.
Speaker 3 (57:02):
And if I'm being honest, if someone is telling me
that you know something is in for me, like a
certain religion isn't for.
Speaker 6 (57:08):
Me, maybe you're right.
Speaker 3 (57:10):
Because I don't want anything that anyone is trying to
exclude me from. I like that for me has always
been very interesting. I almost have kind of been like,
especially as I've grown up and revalued my relationship to religion.
I'm like, you know what, you can tell me that
this isn't for me. Yeah, organized religion isn't for me,
(57:30):
but spirituality is something that I can define for myself
and grow my own journey in that is what's for me,
and if you.
Speaker 4 (57:36):
Are afraid of the community is for me.
Speaker 3 (57:38):
And community so it's like I'm actually it's kind of
like it reminds me of I mean, it kind of
reminds me of like segregation when you when you see
a building that says no, you know, no colors are
whites only.
Speaker 4 (57:52):
Thank you.
Speaker 6 (57:52):
That's right. I don't want your unseasoned food, and.
Speaker 4 (57:56):
I don't want to I don't want to be in that.
Speaker 2 (57:58):
Space exactly, versus like you come to a space like this,
everyone is welcome. If you're listening, you're welcome here. But
like that's why we create our own space forget to see,
build your own damn table. We have to start building tables.
We're trying to build chairs, Bitch, I can stand on
my knees and eat a meal. We need to build
tables and invite people to the tables because this way
we have control of the meal that we serve. We
(58:20):
have control of how we choose to live our lives.
And it is that hard thing where it's like if
you don't want me, maybe I don't want you.
Speaker 5 (58:26):
You know what's scary though, I think that's a lot
of what people do seek out of religion. And I know,
I know I am who I am, but I was
thinking about this Jesus. I'm just saying because I.
Speaker 4 (58:40):
Was edy select Jesus.
Speaker 2 (58:42):
No I said, said Jesus, I am who I am.
That was a little biblical rapress like Jesus. That's my
rap name, mat I mean, that's my rap name me Jesus.
Speaker 4 (58:56):
Okay.
Speaker 5 (58:57):
The reason why this is going to fit in though,
is I was thinking about this with a hookup last night.
Speaker 6 (59:03):
You know, that must have been a good session if
you was ready to praise.
Speaker 4 (59:06):
I mean, I'm always a little ready to praise, but
God as a hook up. I just think I think there.
Speaker 5 (59:14):
Are so many ways that people are seeking this, like
bigger connection and meaning. And it's interesting because Christianity itself
wasn't actually like something that wasn't for us. There's no
such thing as a space that was invented that wasn't
for us. It was always through the word of Man
(59:35):
that things get warped. And my husband right now is
reading the skeptics Annotated Bible, which.
Speaker 3 (59:43):
Which is I'm assuming like a Bible version that says,
actually this didn't happen.
Speaker 4 (59:49):
Yes, yeah, Well, it's a little smarmy.
Speaker 5 (59:51):
It's not even so much as like, actually, this didn't happen,
or this did happen. It's one of the first crazy
tools that Christianity used to kind of manipulate the masses
was the fact that it made the Bible something for
only specific people to read. Peasants were not reading at all,
but definitely like not supposed to be reading and interpreting
(01:00:13):
the Bible.
Speaker 2 (01:00:14):
And they had to have the religious figurehead who interpreted
it for you and told you how you had to
live it.
Speaker 6 (01:00:19):
Yes, so that is and you're taking the word of
the thing.
Speaker 2 (01:00:22):
Well, and and that structure works so well that that
is still how it works to this day, even though
the Bible is something that everybody could have access, Like
there's nobody who has a lack of access to the
Bible somewhere, yet they probably never read it and they
use it as a weapon instead of even knowing that.
Speaker 5 (01:00:40):
That's that's because that's how it was supposed to be used. Like,
if you go through the Bible, it is intentionally long.
It is intentionally like, well, i'll push back to this repetitive.
It is repetitive, but it also is censorship. There's a
ton of the Bible that was left out of the
Bible Books of the Bible, that it didn't fit the
(01:01:00):
narrative of the men who were putting it together. Mary Magdalen,
who was responsible for spreading Christianity across much of Eastern Europe,
wrote a book of the Bible and was excluded from
it because she was a woman and they didn't want
to empower her. So it's just to say that, like,
context is key, and even you're presenting this historical context,
but it's like, so we could read the Bible ourselves
(01:01:21):
and consume what it means to us and still not
be getting the full story.
Speaker 4 (01:01:24):
No, But okay, so there's that one aspect of it.
Speaker 5 (01:01:27):
But we have to, I think, to look through the
lens of anybody who's a practicing Christian right now, and
by practicing, I mean you don't even have to be
going to church. Because one of the most powerful things
I remember pre coming out, pre questioning God openly, was
just being afraid to not be Christian, but also not
ever even pretending like I was going to be willing
(01:01:50):
to read through the Bible. And not only are there
entire things that are left out, but so much contradictory
stuff that's left in just because it was supposed to
influence somebody at some point. And I think the most
powerful thing that Christianity has done is it allows whoever
does have the power of spreading the word to choose
(01:02:12):
what to say, because the Bible in ten seconds might say, like,
you know, go stone your wife if she's bleeding in
your house, and then like ten minutes later say, for
God so loved the world that he never would harm
a kitten. Like it is so back and forth intentionally,
and so I think there's power in exploring that for yourself.
Speaker 4 (01:02:33):
Like if they get to do the solid bar Bible,
so do.
Speaker 3 (01:02:36):
We No, I totally agree, And I think the most
powerful thing is this conversation of like three four counting
Jake Wesley Rodgers talking about our relationship to religion in
demystifying all the awful things that were told and done
to us, because that's that's no longer the case and
(01:02:56):
it won't ever be the case. And I appreciate everyone,
and I appreciate that Jake Wesley Rodgers came on the
show and just had a wonderful time.
Speaker 4 (01:03:04):
It really allowed himself to go there with me. It
was really really beautiful.
Speaker 2 (01:03:08):
Yeah you did that, Ryan, And like, the thing is,
religion is all this history, but at the end of
the day, all we know for sure is true is
what we experience and what we feel and what other
people tell us that they experience and feel. And we
have to believe people and meet them where they are
and have these conversations. And you modeled that so beautifully.
This was another wonderful Ryan interview. And I can't wait
(01:03:31):
to have a deeper conversation on religious trauma because I
think we have a lot more to say.
Speaker 3 (01:03:35):
Oh sure, dude, but seriously, I'll check out in the
key love. I really really I'm not even just saying
that if I didn't like to have but I actually
really really enjoyed it, and I think it's so needed
and necessary.
Speaker 4 (01:03:48):
And so yeah, we got to take a quick break.
Speaker 3 (01:03:50):
We got to pay some bills, so we'll be right
back with our id key up next.
Speaker 2 (01:03:56):
Every once in a while, I feel like I find
a show and I'm like, I want to binge all
of this show, and I'm like, everyone has to know
about this show.
Speaker 4 (01:04:03):
And then I realized it was.
Speaker 2 (01:04:04):
Like from a long time ago, So I'm watching a
show from twenty seventeen on Netflix called mind Hunter.
Speaker 4 (01:04:10):
It's not easy, butchering people's hard work physically and mentally.
I don't think people realize you need to then.
Speaker 2 (01:04:18):
And it has Jonathan Groff who's a musical theater girly,
And it's just like a procedural serial killer show.
Speaker 4 (01:04:23):
I love learning about serial killers.
Speaker 7 (01:04:25):
We're talking to serial killers, serial killers new terminology.
Speaker 2 (01:04:30):
I like him actually, like a serial killer officionado. Like
I know about them. I like watching the sort of
psychological process of understanding them.
Speaker 4 (01:04:39):
I read this amazing.
Speaker 2 (01:04:40):
Book called sociopath that It's a memoir that I feel
like everyone should read.
Speaker 4 (01:04:44):
I just find it fascinating.
Speaker 2 (01:04:46):
As someone who feels a lot, I really am interested
in those who do not. And this show is just
a lot of fun. Procedural crime dramas are really nice
because you just know what you're gonna get and you
know it's going to resolve every episode, so you're anxiety
and just take a break and engage. You're like, thank God,
somebody's gonna die. Exactly like someone's gonna die. You know
they're gonna figure it out, they're gonna resolve it, and
(01:05:08):
then we're gonna go to the next thing. And it's
just so funny to like be like watching this cop
thing and be like rooting for the cops, but like
sometimes I'm also rooting for the serial killers. And I
think that's okay, and I think that's okay. So check
it out, Mindhunter. It's a lot of fun. We're not
gonna get a cute little, you know, retweet from putting
this on social because it is not topical, but it's
(01:05:30):
topical to me because I'm binging it right now.
Speaker 6 (01:05:32):
Well, I got something that is topical.
Speaker 4 (01:05:34):
I know you do.
Speaker 3 (01:05:35):
I have been tweeting about We're not tweeting about it,
but threading about it over on threads.
Speaker 6 (01:05:39):
That's where I'm like talking all my ish Now.
Speaker 3 (01:05:42):
I'm obsessed with this season of The fucking Yielded Age.
Speaker 4 (01:05:47):
I don't blame you for being ruthless. I admire it.
Speaker 1 (01:05:50):
You must understand. I just want what's best for us,
all of course you do.
Speaker 3 (01:05:56):
Yeah, I cannot believe I have loved this show since
it came on.
Speaker 4 (01:06:00):
It's on HBO.
Speaker 3 (01:06:01):
It's about the American Gilded Age, and it's sort of
it's by the same creator I think that did Corton Abbey,
but it's in a completely different universe.
Speaker 4 (01:06:10):
It's not connected. They've been clear about that.
Speaker 3 (01:06:12):
But what they are doing this season specifically with like
kind of like the black characters and the storyline. I mean,
they showed the black like Negro League, and it was
really really cool to see a baseball scene and just
them diving in to so much while also carrying with
the fashion, carrying.
Speaker 4 (01:06:29):
With the drama.
Speaker 3 (01:06:30):
The guilded Age is just Premiere Television. And Carrie Kuon
is my queen.
Speaker 1 (01:06:35):
I take that as a compliment.
Speaker 3 (01:06:36):
I desperately want her on the show so bad. I
just think she's so great her. She does a really
great job of making me simultaneously hates her character while
also roots for her character. There's just so much I
love about the show. I think everyone, if you're not
watching it, you totally should. And then of course Big
Brother is on. Fuck Love Island. Big Brother is on.
Speaker 7 (01:06:55):
You say I'm fake, you say a mistake, and the
only thing fake about me are these damn sung I
want everyone.
Speaker 4 (01:07:01):
To hear me loud and clear.
Speaker 7 (01:07:03):
I am gunning for you, So buckle up, buddy, because
this snake has a bite. That's it.
Speaker 3 (01:07:09):
Wow, this has been so good it's been so so good.
I'm also talking about Big Brother on Threads as well,
So join me over there if you need somebody to
talk about it with, or maybe join me on Patrion
because I kind of really want to do some stuff
about Big Brother on there because it's just such a
good show. It's so good and the mess has ensued
and yeah, strap in we got into like what October
(01:07:31):
for that show before that show is over.
Speaker 6 (01:07:33):
So that's my hike I'm obsessed with both of those things.
Speaker 4 (01:07:38):
Oh, we're gonna have a lot of Big Brother, y'all.
Speaker 3 (01:07:41):
Edie, what's going on in your world? What are you
obsessed with? Wicky about?
Speaker 5 (01:07:46):
So I'm hikey obviously already talked about it for two weeks,
but I'm seriously so fucking hikey obsessed with King of Drag?
Speaker 4 (01:07:54):
Is it really that good? Like three weeks?
Speaker 6 (01:07:56):
It's crazy.
Speaker 5 (01:07:57):
It's just like it continues to break my heart. It
continues to like just show me exactly what I fell
in love with about reality television, competition drag series in
the first place, is like, damn, queer people are such complex, beautiful,
fucked up creatures and the artistry and the choices that
(01:08:19):
they're making. I just think they really hit home so hardcore.
Speaker 4 (01:08:23):
It's a bit of a rebellion every time you step
on stage. The path that I'm on as an art
maker and as a.
Speaker 3 (01:08:29):
King is about exploring and being free in my lifetime.
Speaker 2 (01:08:34):
Shout out to Revere, Yeah, I got a shout out
to it needs you to host the reunion, Evie, Like,
please let me.
Speaker 4 (01:08:40):
Can you be the Andy Cohen?
Speaker 5 (01:08:41):
Yeah, I'll be your annoying, bitchy, disconnected Andy Cohen, like
taking shots and sucking dick behind the curtain or whatever.
Speaker 4 (01:08:48):
I promise.
Speaker 3 (01:08:48):
Hey, Andy Cohen is great. He's kind of what I'm
looking forward to for the Love Island.
Speaker 4 (01:08:52):
Reunion because I am too. He's going to ask the
questions yea, I need to be.
Speaker 2 (01:08:56):
He's gonna take a little bump and ask the questions
I need to be asked exactly.
Speaker 4 (01:09:00):
I think.
Speaker 5 (01:09:00):
I think that's real. But the reason why I had
to give my big, big one to King of Drag
is y'all do not want to hear my other hike obsessed?
Speaker 4 (01:09:09):
Okay, what is it now? I'm curious, she warned you,
and now you're about to bring it on here.
Speaker 3 (01:09:16):
No, No, this is like opening Pandora's box. There's no
shutting it. Let's open it, let's go.
Speaker 5 (01:09:22):
I am hike obsessed with playing Call of Duty right now.
Speaker 3 (01:09:27):
Oh that's we should play together.
Speaker 6 (01:09:32):
Shut the fuck up.
Speaker 4 (01:09:33):
It's so weird.
Speaker 2 (01:09:34):
We've become republican like military men when you play a
video game.
Speaker 4 (01:09:39):
I'm anti war.
Speaker 5 (01:09:40):
Yeah, I'm like, I did this shit better not be
happening in real life, but goddamn if I did not
just flatten then entire field of people with my little
gay ass, my pink ass gun.
Speaker 4 (01:09:51):
Well, which is.
Speaker 6 (01:09:51):
Why I play.
Speaker 3 (01:09:52):
I started to play fortnitemore because there's just nothing realistic
about jumping off of a bus, landing safely and then
finding like, you know, special like you're getting special powers
and mythic guns, all the things.
Speaker 6 (01:10:04):
It's just like it just feels more fantasy.
Speaker 3 (01:10:06):
Fall of Duty is like blood and Gore and you're like, oh,
now this is soon.
Speaker 4 (01:10:11):
But that's why I can't.
Speaker 5 (01:10:12):
But that's why I can't do Fortnite is like I
have enough space in my life to express the color
and the joy and to dance to like the newest
Lady Gaga song or whatever, Like.
Speaker 4 (01:10:22):
I don't need the crazy.
Speaker 5 (01:10:24):
It's not even that it's not fun. I've like watched
my roommates play. I'm like, oh, that's so cute. I
just don't need any more tiktokification in my life. Okay,
Sometimes I really am just trying to soak in how
hard it is being a grown ass queer man playing
a video game getting flattened by a bunch of twelve
(01:10:44):
year olds calling me faggot, And I'm like, you're right, goddamn,
but I'm gonna go harder.
Speaker 3 (01:10:49):
That's actually the I mean, it's not the best part
of Call of Duty, but if you ever want to
play a video game to really get out some like angst,
proximity proximity chat is the best thing because you can
call them all type.
Speaker 4 (01:11:03):
Of bees and hoes and I.
Speaker 3 (01:11:06):
Just drag them as they're dying or as they have
died before the screen changes.
Speaker 4 (01:11:10):
And it really is a release.
Speaker 6 (01:11:12):
So I get it. I get it.
Speaker 2 (01:11:13):
Tone tone like I sometimes I just want to be
reminded of the actual world we live in, but be
able to, like, you know, occasionally prove people wrong.
Speaker 5 (01:11:22):
Be like, yeah, guess which faggot had the most kills.
Speaker 4 (01:11:26):
That's right, I'm coming in the bomb drone.
Speaker 2 (01:11:29):
Watch it By the way, if folks are listening and
they're high key obsessed about something, can you let us
know in a weird place? Can you let us know
what you're high key obsessed with in the review section
of Apple Podcasts and let me tell you why are.
Speaker 3 (01:11:42):
The I'm a section of spot No no no no, no, no,
no no no.
Speaker 2 (01:11:45):
I want you in the review section of Apple Podcasts.
I want you to drop a five star review. You
can do it right now. You can like press the
back button and drop a five star review and then
tell us what your high key obsessed with this week
and put the date so we'll know when you're coming in.
So each week we're going to see if people are
actually listening and giving us some fresh reviews. So how
about that that would really help us out.
Speaker 3 (01:12:04):
Of course Ben is leaving everyone with homework, which I
approve of this homework.
Speaker 4 (01:12:08):
I think we need call me professor.
Speaker 6 (01:12:10):
That's like I think we need it.
Speaker 3 (01:12:12):
Hi, Well, this was a great show. I'm so happy
that Jake Wesley Rogers joined us. Shout out to him
once again. Please take a listen to this album. This
high key was great. I love you all so much.
I have yet to get tired of talking to you three,
so well, well, don't worry myself when I said three, there's.
Speaker 2 (01:12:30):
Much more to come, and I'm sure you'll get tired
of us eventually. And I just want to say to you,
a great interview, Ryan, that was really, really wonderful.
Speaker 4 (01:12:38):
I just love the way you interview.
Speaker 2 (01:12:39):
I love the way your painting things, and I love
getting to unpack it all with you all afterwards.
Speaker 6 (01:12:45):
I love you so much.
Speaker 3 (01:12:45):
But I really want to go over to our Patreon
right now and talk about have y'all watched the Laverne
Cox thing where she like talked about her dating a
magic a New York Come, No.
Speaker 4 (01:12:54):
But I want to talk about this because that sounds
so hot. It's your coming.
Speaker 3 (01:12:59):
We gotta pature out to talk about that, and we
gotta go talk about mistress dragging willem onre.
Speaker 4 (01:13:04):
Yes, we do.
Speaker 3 (01:13:05):
So we got a lot to talk about. Love y'all
so much. Somebody say the tagline.
Speaker 5 (01:13:09):
Say bye bitches, get the fuck out of my house,
Get out of here.
Speaker 2 (01:13:13):
Oh the police came, It's time to go. That's why
I really my house party.
Speaker 4 (01:13:18):
That's right.
Speaker 2 (01:13:18):
But until next time, stay messy, stay obsessed, and.
Speaker 4 (01:13:22):
Stay hi key hie. If you're high Key.
Speaker 2 (01:13:27):
Loving our show, then take a second to follow or
subscribe so you never miss an episode. And while you're
at it, rate up, drop a review and tell your
friend Cis.
Speaker 3 (01:13:35):
And of course, if you want to keep the high
Key key going, join us on Instagram and TikTok at
high Key here and on Patreon, where we're dropping bonus
content every single.
Speaker 4 (01:13:46):
Wait see there.
Speaker 2 (01:13:49):
High Key is a production of iHeart Podcast as part
of the Outspoken Network. This show is created and executive
produced by Ben o'keeth, Ryan Mitchell, Evey Oddley and Spoke Media.
Speaker 4 (01:13:58):
Our showrunner is Tyler Green.
Speaker 5 (01:14:00):
Our producers are Jonasanti, Jenna Burnett, and Tess Ryan. Our
video lead is Louis Pania, and our audio engineer is
Sammy Syret. Executive producers for Spoke Media are Travis Samont
Ballinger and Aleah Tavicolian. Our iHeart team is Jess Crimechic
and Sierra Kaiser.
Speaker 3 (01:14:17):
Our theme music is by Kayane Hersey and our show
art is by Work by Work, with photography by Eric Carter.
Speaker 2 (01:14:23):
Thank you