May 30, 2018 • 31 mins
Hobson's Choice Podcast: John Stofa
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Very happy to have with us on this Hobson's Choice
Podcast edition. Now we've got the very first bengal An
honor to have John Stofa to check in with us
and talk to us about that first game ever played,
among other things. John, thanks for thanks for coming on.
(00:20):
Ye pot pleasure. It's always nice talking with you. Stop.
We were you and I were just talking before we
came on the air. We're talking about that first game
August third, nineteen sixty eight, playing the very powerful Kansas
City Chiefs. That was quite a night, wasn't it. It
sure was. You know, football in Cincinnati was born, and
(00:43):
well it took a big jump and it was just great. Uh.
You know, the fans were out there, they knew what
they were, they knew their football, and they knew what
they wanted and it was quite. It was quite. As
Bob Johnson said, it was quite a collection of personalities.
Well it was. And people don't realize how difficult that
(01:05):
first year was. You know, when you look at any
personalities and the turnover staff, that the number of people
that came from different teams, different organizations, and to make
it work, it was something special. Now you took you
took those first snaps that night. Uh, Paul traded for
(01:26):
you back back in December. The first player move really
got you from the Dolphins. Um, what was it like
taking those those first couple of snaps butterflies or did
you guys know what you were doing was a pretty
under control and what was it like? Well, well, we
you know, those of us that have been around knew,
you know, what to expect more or less. And you know,
(01:48):
I was with the Dolphins as an expansion team as well,
so so it wasn't anything really earth shannering or new
new to me, but the fact that you're with different players,
different teammates. Uh, and you know, you were just hoping
that somebody doesn't miss an assignment. Everybody knows what they're
supposed to do, and nobody misses it. The blocks, it
(02:11):
was a tough first half for you, John, No first downs,
that was a tough Well, oh yeah, it was we
only hand the ball for three plays or something that uh,
Kansas City controlled it, and as I recalled, they kicked
off and we fumbled and they got the ball and
went in and uh did you think Chiefs are we
ever gonna were ever gonna get the ball? But it
(02:35):
was football and Cincinnati, and it was great to be
playing at that time. Jeff, I think it was like
twenty one thousand there that night. They sound pretty good.
That sounds about right. Yeah, so it was old Nipford Stadium.
Yeah they and sure they are very loud, Yeah, yeah,
we um. You know they were talking about the Chiefs before,
(02:55):
you know, the great line Buck Buchanan and uh and
and that already. Lad. Yeah, I mean that was a
hell of a team to play right out of the box.
They were one. They were one year removed from going
to the first Super Bowl and they were a year
away from from winning at all. So that was basically
the same team. They were pretty good, yep. And they
you know, they had what they had developed was a chemistry.
(03:19):
And yet, and that's very difficult when you look at
the teams that have won continually, the team develops a
personality and they have this chemistry, whether it was the
forty nine ers or the Packers, whether it was the
Celtics when they were any pro team. It's the players.
It's as players that make it happen, you know, and
(03:39):
they get along and they care about each other and
not so much themselves, and it's not a memeat, but
you know they developed and then and the Kansas City
had it started then yeah, the U and then and
then I know there was there was much made. You
didn't I guess what. H Dewey Warren came in the
backup quarterback from Tennessee. He got a touchdown. Um. The
(04:03):
only other touchdown I think was I want to say,
uh was a fumble return by Solomon Brandon who was
promptly cut like in the next couple of days. But
so they were there were two touchdowns, and there was
much I was reading. You know, they're reading the papers
after that game and they're saying, well, Stopha called his
own plays, but Paul Brown called the plays for Warren.
(04:24):
But she said that wasn't really accurate, right, No, I
don't think it was because but Paul Paul is still
using the messenger guards right, Yes, he was, yes, and
that was that was the the fass that we had,
right and you know he got to a point too,
he said, uh, you know when you know, he and
I had a pretty good relationship and people don't realize that.
(04:44):
You know, when you have your quarterback and your coach
on the same page, things work a lot better, and
so you know he said that John, we don't want
to get anybody or hurt, and you know, we would
rather run a bad play than check off. You know,
I one that we send in, but he was sending
him in, and uh, there there were no you know,
(05:06):
I could check off, but there were you know, he
was calling the plays and he had a little bit
more experience with people upstairs and they could see a
little bit more and that's where it was. Well, Paul
had a great rejoinder. I guess when the writers asked
him that, and he said, well, I think it had
more to you know, when they score, When you guys scored,
he said, well, I think that had more to do
(05:27):
with Ladd and Buchanan being on the bench. Yeah, but
that was you know, Bob Johnson remember saying after that game,
Bob had just I don't know, you probably don't remember this,
but Bob had just arrived from practicing with the College
All Stars, the number one pick for the Bengals, the
first pick in the draft, and Lay played for Tennessee
(05:49):
at the center, and he had just arrived from practicing
him playing for the College All Stars. I guess against
the Packers, the world champions, and so his first thing,
he guess he shook Paul's hand and he said, uh,
you're snapping on kicks. So and he was waiting for
Paul to kind of reading the Riot Act after the game,
(06:11):
but he said, he's very very measured and very uh,
very optimistic. I don't know if you remember that yet. Well,
yes I do, and I believe that. Uh if you
don't feel that way, also, Jeff, you know it's not
going to work anyway. So you've got to believe what
(06:31):
you're doing and let's help you buy the others into it. Yeah. Yeah,
I mean, I guess that first game. You obviously you
could see guys like Paul Robinson and Bob Trump. He
could play, sure, and and you know we had some
players out there, but we didn't have enough of them
at the time. And then we you know, we didn't
we didn't know who were the backups and how they
(06:52):
were going to perform is you know, throughout the first year.
So it was it was not an easy since, as
I said, and just just making sure that that nobody
got hurt and everybody understood their role in our assignment
and they did the best they could. How was how
was Paul. You know, you you were actually on an
(07:13):
expansion team twice with Miami. I guess in sixty six, right,
was that? Was that? Right? They were? They came and
then and then was Cincinnati in sixty eight. How was
the Cincinnati experience different than the Miami experience? Maybe, you know,
given that you know, Paul was getting back into the game,
and well, you know, they were very similar in a
lot of respects that, you know, as far as the
(07:36):
people coming in and and uh uh, you know, turnover
staff and the turnover of players. But I think that
Paul was just a little bit more organized and discipline.
Uh and you know evidence by the fact that you know,
Miami had to pick up and move their training camp
a couple of weeks after we were into the into
(07:56):
the practice season. We were up in in uh camp area,
Saint Petersburg Beach, in a makefield and a makeshift filled
that they just put some sod down and and it
was just, uh, it was horrible experience. So that's when
we moved down to Saint uh Andrew's Boys' School in
(08:17):
boc Over Town and the practice and that was our
home for the preseason for a lot of years. Paul
wouldn't be gone for that, would he join? No, no, no,
But but again, uh, you know, a lot of similarities,
and you know, Paul, with his experience and disciplined approach,
(08:38):
made it, I think worked a little bit smoother. What
was that And I don't know if you remember that
first meeting at all. You know Trump he had talked
about that first meeting a little bit, and uh An
albow Champ actually talked about it a little bit. Paul
was pretty Paul was pretty unfronted. He was the guy
and nobody he was the guy at the top. Well,
(08:59):
you know, again, I had I think that at that
time I probably had more of a relationship with the
Paul Brown than anybody else because the quarterback and you know,
the coach and and you know, we we came down
to Cincinnati a few times, just the two of us
h for some meetings and for some things that were
(09:20):
going on, and we'd talk and you know, not only
football but personal too. He was a good guy. And
people don't understand and really know the other side of
Paul Brown. But there was so much trusture on him
after coming here from Cleveland. H you know, he this
is the approach he took that you know, it's my way,
(09:40):
and I'm going to make sure everybody understands that you
like him as a guy, right, I mean you just
you like, you'll never mind a coach, but a guy. Yep, yep.
They was a very nice man. And uh, you know,
people don't understand and you know what they'd see. They'd
see that real tough looking image out there. You know,
this guy that doesn't doesn't care about anything. But that's
(10:03):
not true. And he did care about, you know, the
players and how they were doing personally and all these
other things. But there's just not enough time and for
him to share and to do all that well. He joined.
It had to be something that it had to mean
a lot that he turned to you to be the
first guy to be the first Bengal. I mean, you
(10:23):
know he talked about that in the drafting with John
Jeff and I think what happened was he could see
he came down to Miami, Florida when I was with
the Dolphins and I was just coming back from a
broken leg, blue it or not, and I was working out,
and everybody thought he's coming down to look at Rick Norton.
And Rick Norton was the number one or one of
(10:45):
the high draft races from the University of Kentucky, and
he was he was there as a backup quarterback or
as a quarterback on the team. Everybody thought he was
coming down the ruler at Rick And here, you know,
I'm I'm working out doing the things I normally do,
you know, running the running the drills and the passing
(11:07):
and doing everything, and here he's looking at me. And
after a couple of days after that, Georgia H. Wilson
calls me into his office and says, hey, John, Paul
Brown wants you to go to Cincinnati. George Wilson, being
the Dolphins head coach, Yes, right right, And what did
(11:28):
you say that? Did you? Did you almost? What was
your response to that? Well, it was great, It was great,
you know, just knowing that you know, you have an
opportunity that there's a there's uh a new team again.
And you know, again with I think that the fact
that see I will also I played the minor leagues
Jeff for a couple of years, and because at Buffalo,
(11:50):
where I went to school, we only threw the ball
four or five times, San Diego wanted to draft me.
And that's a long story. But anyway, and they said, oh,
go ahead and let's we got plenty of time. I John,
go ahead and tell that one. But Diego, well, well
what happened was, uh san Diego wanted to draft me
(12:10):
in and Buffalo says, oh, no, he's in our backyard today,
and something that they called territorial rights, right, So so
what happened was, uh san Diego is okay, and the
Buffalo then says, well, we're not going to drafted. You
can just come over here and come as a free agent.
And I said bull crap. So uh san Diego said, okay, John,
(12:31):
here's what we're gonna do. You have some potential, they felt.
But they said you need to go and work and
throw the ball. So I went to they don'to beach thunderbirds.
But after he was a head coacher and and he
we threw the ball forty fifty times a game, Jeff.
And that's where I really developed and really, you know,
(12:51):
they're not only thrown about the reading of defenses and
everything else and goes along with the passing game. And
that was probably the best thing that I have ever
happened to me. Yeah, and then and then obviously the
call came to Miami. Right, you went from there to
Uh did you go from there to Miami? No? Oh? Yeah?
(13:11):
Then I went to the Dolphins, right and uh that's
where I started. Yes, yeah, because that's really that's probably
from where you were located. That's that's what cuts you
the job in Miami? Yea, yea. And then um the
when you guys, Um, did Paul sit down and talk
(13:32):
to you at all? Did he you know, did you
talk to him at all? Or before he decided to
make the trade? Did he talked to me before? Yeah,
before he made the trade? But no, Yeah, but but
I'm sure that you know, he spent enough time down
there personally talking to a lot of people and uh
and just making sure there was gonna be a good fit.
(13:55):
Did you did you? Uh? I mean you know, I mean,
like you know, did you feel did you feel pressure
being the first Bengal being basically the face of no,
just the opposite. I mean, you feel you feel a
real uh deep feeling of belief in yourself that you know,
(14:15):
you know you can do it and you wanted to
do it, and you know it was it was a
real highlight just being being selected as the first player
that Paul Brown wanted. Yeah. I mean that's quite a
I mean that's quite a that's quite a statement. Uh
the uh did he and I and I you know,
(14:37):
he would pretty straight forward guy. He told you what
he wanted, what he's expecting of you. He sure did. Yeah,
and uh and you know and hopefully uh, you know,
winning three games that year, Jeff, I think it was
a good indication that that we did have something and
he did think that I can do it, and I
did it right, and it wasn't easy, and it would
(14:59):
be the starting court back in the three games we won,
the most by any expansion team. I think you look
back and say, holy come, that was a pretty good
a pretty good situation and an outcome because, uh, you know,
with the turnover the personnel, I don't know how many
people we went through that first year. You know, just
(15:20):
shuffling in in and out off the team and trying
to have some organization and stability is not was not easy. Now,
the famous story, obviously is Trump he had six roommates
that that first training camp. So but but Sam, but
Sam said the quarterbacks were by themselves. So I guess
you guys were there was you there was two we
won't warn. It was Sam Wish and uh a kid
(15:44):
named Davis, right, Uh, yeah, there were there were the
three of us and uh, you know again, you don't
go through what we went through without some injuries or
bumps or bruisers or aches and pains or you know,
some of these old things holding you back too. And
that was the reason that we had to have and
(16:06):
keep you know, the the quarterbacks there, keep them uh
ready to go at any time, because who knows what
was going to happen and what it was going to happen. Yeah.
The uh one of the great things about my eighth
down in Miami was you actually helped the actor Alan
Alda with uh with his performance in Paper Alliance, Right,
(16:30):
you like you were like a consultant on that movie
or something, Right, Well, I was. I was down there
and I got a call. I don't know who set
it up, but suddenly said that you might want to
talk to these folks or or doing a movie and
and so I didn't. And then we started talking as well,
you know, I can help, you know, do some fundamentals
(16:51):
with Alan Alda, who was you know, the star of
the show and what he was doing. I guess is
he was portraying Joy Clinton, who was a who was
a writer and had written a book Paper Lion, and
so they were doing the movie version of that exactly right,
And so I got I got a you know, a
(17:11):
couple of speaking parts in the movie. And then in
addition to being in a movie, I did some of
the training and helping Alan Alda, you know, prepare for
what he was about to do with the football and
learned a little bit about some of the skills. What
kind of guy was he? John guy? Yeah? Yeah, you know.
(17:36):
An amazing thing is it was just a nice fit there.
It was a Detroit Lions or the team that was
down in Miami. That's where he went to. That's where
he went to Allen Alda when he was or George Flinton,
I mean when he wrote to when he was writing
the book. He was up in Detroit with the Lions,
(17:59):
and so they were using the core of the Lions, uh,
players and coaches and you know, with any extras like
myself and some others in Miami. So so it was
really and also just just being on a set and
sing how that stuff works? Yeah, I you know, how
(18:19):
how is uh did you play anybody specific in the movie. No, no, no,
I was just one one of the one of the
backup quarterbacks. And that it was nameless. What did you say?
What was your lines? What? We oh, I can't even remember.
(18:41):
We'll have to dig that up. Chart. That's pretty good.
It was, it was, it was interesting and so and
actually when when when you know, before the night before
the game. Paul always used to take the players to
a movie. Yeah and so and so what happened? Uh?
(19:01):
The movie we went to was The Paper Lion, and
that was what I said, Okay, guys, I'll be ready.
And although my, my, my, my appearance was a little
was brief and short. Hey there get you get a
lot of crap from the guys, a little you know
(19:21):
normally uh rational a little bit. But it was fun.
All that fun. Yeah. Well and then then and then
of course out, I mean all the hits. It huge
with mash you get to see him every week. He
became huge. Yeah, yep, yep, sure did Yeah did you
have do you keep in touch with him or was
that pretty much? No? No, no, I think I ran
(19:42):
into him once or twice, but no, that was it
was just it was that was his thing, and I
did my thing and then after that he went where
I went mine. Joy, you played at Buffalo, all right,
that's who played in college ball? You from up around there?
But yeah, I the aversion of Buffalo. Yeah are you
(20:02):
from there? Is that where you're from? Now? From Johnstown, Pennsylvania?
How are you going home? Of Atrell Hawkins? I went
to Hawkins because I played three sports, played football, past
fall and baseball. Yeah. And then um and even though
you were here two years though, you made lifelong relationships, right,
I mean on that team. Yes. As a matter of fact,
(20:25):
you know the guy that I worked out with here
in Cincinnati when I went before the season. We came
up from Miami early and like in uh, I think
in December. Uh, and there's nobody here except Mike Brown. Yeah,
you know, and so Mike and Paul. So I would
work out over Princeton High School with with Mike would
(20:47):
throw the ball and we've become pretty good friends. Yeah. Yeah,
How was Mike to catch it? How was I? Was
Mike a good catch? Sure? We'd run patterns and I'd
running for him, he'd running from me, just just you know,
trying to get some exercise as well as just throwing
and and uh. With a drop, working on on my
(21:09):
drop and my my my technique, and he was a
good guy to work with. Yeah. Of course Mike was
a college quarterback at Documents, so yep, he was. So anyway,
that was and you know, getting Mike Brown and you
know he's done a wonderful job. I think, uh, you know,
(21:31):
taking over running the club, doing the things needed to
be done to make it work. You yeah, yeah, go ahead,
go ahead, And I say, just and with his with
his daughter and here Katie and her husband Troy. I
think that, you know, keeping it all together and keeping
control of the situation, that's the key. Mike is where
(21:54):
very knowledgeable, knows what's going on, and uh, you know,
he's not going to let anybody come in and from
brow beat him or or what have you. He knows,
he knows the game, he knows what needs to be done,
and he's he's done. He gets a lot of a
lot of criticism for being cheap or not paying for
(22:17):
that stop you know that, and that you know, the
Bengals have a salary out there that's uh pretty good
upper middle I would guess yea. And so when it
comes to signing the ball players and giving him what
theyny he'll do he does that, and he'll continue continue
to do it. I know, I know he's often said
when he signed some of these deals. I remember when
(22:39):
he gave Kajana Kadra seven million dollars signing bonus, and
he said, geez, we bought the franchise for seven point
two you know. So but you know, sometimes you know,
and yet there are a lot of clubs that have
had the same situation where you know, somebody doesn't work
out the way you expect him to. You know, you
were saying, you know, the wives became close. Uh your
(23:01):
your your wife and Mike Brown's wife, Nancy, uh Sam
and Pat Trump and Jane Wish you know, they were
all they were all close and and you know, you
talk about building a chemistry, and I think that's a
good start there, you know, and people believing, and people
feel all part of it, and you feel friends and
(23:23):
you want to do it together. And I think that
one of the reasons that the Bengals had some early
success again was because of you know this this uh
trying to get the right people on board, get the
right chemistry, get the right processes going. And that's not
easy to do and it's the players really make it
(23:44):
work and getting the you know, as we said before
about you know, the Dolphins when they were doing or
whether it was the packers or distillers or whoever, but
they have this belief. It's it's the players say, Okay,
this is the way we do things here, and they
control and they make it work. The wives, I guess
you said, you know, they they would antique. I remember
(24:06):
Mike talking about that. How U Nancy and Pat and
Jane would you know, would antique And I even think
when I even think when Mike and Sam had to
split that Christmas Eve split, I think Jane and I
think Jane and Nancy I think they were still going
out antique and I think and all that. Sure, Oh yeah,
(24:28):
you know the wives, my wife Katie and Jane and
Nancy and and uh Pat are still friends and you know,
they still do things. And you know, they really didn't
get that much. Maybe Nancy did because she was a
lot closer to the football part of it. Yeah, but
the wives they're not talking football. They're talking antiques, and
(24:50):
they're having lunch and they're doing the things that women do. Yeah, yeah,
that you know, my you know, Mike, you know, and
Mike was people forget Mike was almost your guy's age
at that point point and uh, you know, not that
much older. I remember tells a great story where Bob
Johnson had to save him from some wild dog during
a walk, uh when they were living in Glendale. You know,
(25:13):
thank you. I mean it's uh, you know, it's some
some funny stories where where you know, where it all began.
It doesn't seem possible it's fifty years ago, it does it? John? No,
it sure it does not. Boy, it seems like, you know,
just a couple of weeks ago. And and and the more
you talk about it, you know, the the more memories
you have, and uh, I guess maybe some of them
(25:36):
may grow a little bip, but uh, it was. It
was a great time. It's a it's a it's a
great sport to bring people together and uh and make
the personalities work. Did you guys settle in Cincinnati, John,
you and Katie after because we've been here. Yeah, we've
been here for uh oh since we left just for
(26:00):
fifteen years just game to go to uh Columbus. This
was like fifteen years ago. And then we came back
to me there our daughter and grandkids who were still
our daughter Tracy, and she's still in Cincinnati with her children,
and Katie and I came back to be near them
and us just wonderful. Well, Cincinnati is a great time. Why.
(26:23):
I mean, you know, you could have lived any you know,
you played in Miami, you play, you played all well,
you played a couple of other clubs after you left here.
I mean, why did you come back to Cincy Because
we are our children were born here and they made
a lot of friends, and we made a lot of
friends just in the time we were here. And you
were only here two years, right, John, You're only here
two Yeah, But we we we got a home here,
(26:45):
we built a home, and we'd we'd go to Miami
or Denver or wherever I was playing, and then we'd
come back in the off season. The kids started school
in Cincinnati, and then when I was traded or you know,
when I moved to Miami again, Uh would start school
down there or Jacksonville and or world football, like when
(27:08):
I was in Jacksonville or Denver. When I was out
in Denver, Nick come back here the second half the
year with their their old their schoolmates, and and uh,
it was it was just a great time. What was
the Uh do you still do you still fall? I mean,
you know, do you do you watch him every Sunday?
Did you used to watch him every Sunday? I mean,
(27:28):
how do you you still do you still follow them
the football? Do I still watch them? Yeah? The Bengals? Yeah?
You still follow the Bengals? Yeah? Yeah, I do the Bengals?
Are you know? Uh, like a part of you. You know,
you spent so much time and knowing that, knowing the Browns,
and and knowing that a lot of the team guys,
(27:49):
not many of the players, but you know people in
the uh, in the front office, and and Marvin's done
a wonderful job and trying to get keep us involved
some degree. So let me just wait. So anyway, who
(28:11):
was the best? Uh? Who's what do you want to do?
Do you want to get that charter? No? No, no,
that We're all right? Okay, sorry, sorry about that. That's
um the how good was Greg Cook? Well? Greg Cook
(28:34):
was a real good prospect. Greg Cook had the physical ability,
he had the strong arm, uh and uh he fit
them all of the quarterback and Paul Brown uh personally
thought that that Greg And then Greg did he he
(28:56):
was everything. I think that Paul wanted him to be. Uh.
But you know, guy, whatever happened to Greg with his
shoulder and his arm, I think that created the initial
problems where he had some issues. Yeah, yeah, but he
was he was pretty good in that oh in nineteen sixty. Yeah,
(29:19):
and you look at you know, his his ability. And
again see when when when Paul Brown saw Greg and
and he wanted to make sure that I was taken
care of, believe it or not. And you know, so
he he had called, uh, had said something up with
the uh, the the Detroit Lions. I wanted to Detroit
(29:42):
and uh they had the need for a quarterback temporarily
because they had had two guys who were hurt and
Landry and I forget the other guy they were both
had started and so when they come back, you know,
I was gone. So I told Paul, I said, Paul,
that's not gonna work. So so I came back here,
(30:06):
spent the rest of that year here, and then went
back to Miami. This is when Greg was here now
right right, So, but but work out and you know
you're just it's it's not an easy life, Jeff, Yeah, No,
it's uh, that's uh that's especially in nineteen sixty eight.
It wasn't easy. Uh, And then now and now fifty
(30:30):
years later, you get a guy like Dalton playing quarterback.
What do you what do you? What do you think
of him? I like I like Andy Dalton. I think
that he's he's smooth, he is some leadership ability. He
uh he fits what they need right now. Is there one?
Is there one image from that game on August third,
(30:50):
nineteen sixty eight still hangs with you and Nipperdstein and
anything I might step in my mind. I think just
coming out in the Bengal uniform for the first time
with my teammates and meeting all these new fans. Uh,
it was it was it was just something special. Well, John,
(31:11):
you're you're you're something special. And I really want to
thank you for checking in with us and talking talking
about it, and uh, we'll be talking many times, I
think during this fiftieth season, and uh, always good to
talk to you. Thanks for joining us,
Very happy to have with us on this Hobson's Choice
Podcast edition. Now we've got the very first bengal An
honor to have John Stofa to check in with us
and talk to us about that first game ever played,
among other things. John, thanks for thanks for coming on.
(00:20):
Ye pot pleasure. It's always nice talking with you. Stop.
We were you and I were just talking before we
came on the air. We're talking about that first game
August third, nineteen sixty eight, playing the very powerful Kansas
City Chiefs. That was quite a night, wasn't it. It
sure was. You know, football in Cincinnati was born, and
(00:43):
well it took a big jump and it was just great. Uh.
You know, the fans were out there, they knew what
they were, they knew their football, and they knew what
they wanted and it was quite. It was quite. As
Bob Johnson said, it was quite a collection of personalities.
Well it was. And people don't realize how difficult that
(01:05):
first year was. You know, when you look at any
personalities and the turnover staff, that the number of people
that came from different teams, different organizations, and to make
it work, it was something special. Now you took you
took those first snaps that night. Uh, Paul traded for
(01:26):
you back back in December. The first player move really
got you from the Dolphins. Um, what was it like
taking those those first couple of snaps butterflies or did
you guys know what you were doing was a pretty
under control and what was it like? Well, well, we
you know, those of us that have been around knew,
you know, what to expect more or less. And you know,
(01:48):
I was with the Dolphins as an expansion team as well,
so so it wasn't anything really earth shannering or new
new to me, but the fact that you're with different players,
different teammates. Uh, and you know, you were just hoping
that somebody doesn't miss an assignment. Everybody knows what they're
supposed to do, and nobody misses it. The blocks, it
(02:11):
was a tough first half for you, John, No first downs,
that was a tough Well, oh yeah, it was we
only hand the ball for three plays or something that uh,
Kansas City controlled it, and as I recalled, they kicked
off and we fumbled and they got the ball and
went in and uh did you think Chiefs are we
ever gonna were ever gonna get the ball? But it
(02:35):
was football and Cincinnati, and it was great to be
playing at that time. Jeff, I think it was like
twenty one thousand there that night. They sound pretty good.
That sounds about right. Yeah, so it was old Nipford Stadium.
Yeah they and sure they are very loud, Yeah, yeah,
we um. You know they were talking about the Chiefs before,
(02:55):
you know, the great line Buck Buchanan and uh and
and that already. Lad. Yeah, I mean that was a
hell of a team to play right out of the box.
They were one. They were one year removed from going
to the first Super Bowl and they were a year
away from from winning at all. So that was basically
the same team. They were pretty good, yep. And they
you know, they had what they had developed was a chemistry.
(03:19):
And yet, and that's very difficult when you look at
the teams that have won continually, the team develops a
personality and they have this chemistry, whether it was the
forty nine ers or the Packers, whether it was the
Celtics when they were any pro team. It's the players.
It's as players that make it happen, you know, and
(03:39):
they get along and they care about each other and
not so much themselves, and it's not a memeat, but
you know they developed and then and the Kansas City
had it started then yeah, the U and then and
then I know there was there was much made. You
didn't I guess what. H Dewey Warren came in the
backup quarterback from Tennessee. He got a touchdown. Um. The
(04:03):
only other touchdown I think was I want to say,
uh was a fumble return by Solomon Brandon who was
promptly cut like in the next couple of days. But
so they were there were two touchdowns, and there was
much I was reading. You know, they're reading the papers
after that game and they're saying, well, Stopha called his
own plays, but Paul Brown called the plays for Warren.
(04:24):
But she said that wasn't really accurate, right, No, I
don't think it was because but Paul Paul is still
using the messenger guards right, Yes, he was, yes, and
that was that was the the fass that we had,
right and you know he got to a point too,
he said, uh, you know when you know, he and
I had a pretty good relationship and people don't realize that.
(04:44):
You know, when you have your quarterback and your coach
on the same page, things work a lot better, and
so you know he said that John, we don't want
to get anybody or hurt, and you know, we would
rather run a bad play than check off. You know,
I one that we send in, but he was sending
him in, and uh, there there were no you know,
(05:06):
I could check off, but there were you know, he
was calling the plays and he had a little bit
more experience with people upstairs and they could see a
little bit more and that's where it was. Well, Paul
had a great rejoinder. I guess when the writers asked
him that, and he said, well, I think it had
more to you know, when they score, When you guys scored,
he said, well, I think that had more to do
(05:27):
with Ladd and Buchanan being on the bench. Yeah, but
that was you know, Bob Johnson remember saying after that game,
Bob had just I don't know, you probably don't remember this,
but Bob had just arrived from practicing with the College
All Stars, the number one pick for the Bengals, the
first pick in the draft, and Lay played for Tennessee
(05:49):
at the center, and he had just arrived from practicing
him playing for the College All Stars. I guess against
the Packers, the world champions, and so his first thing,
he guess he shook Paul's hand and he said, uh,
you're snapping on kicks. So and he was waiting for
Paul to kind of reading the Riot Act after the game,
(06:11):
but he said, he's very very measured and very uh,
very optimistic. I don't know if you remember that yet. Well,
yes I do, and I believe that. Uh if you
don't feel that way, also, Jeff, you know it's not
going to work anyway. So you've got to believe what
(06:31):
you're doing and let's help you buy the others into it. Yeah. Yeah,
I mean, I guess that first game. You obviously you
could see guys like Paul Robinson and Bob Trump. He
could play, sure, and and you know we had some
players out there, but we didn't have enough of them
at the time. And then we you know, we didn't
we didn't know who were the backups and how they
(06:52):
were going to perform is you know, throughout the first year.
So it was it was not an easy since, as
I said, and just just making sure that that nobody
got hurt and everybody understood their role in our assignment
and they did the best they could. How was how
was Paul. You know, you you were actually on an
(07:13):
expansion team twice with Miami. I guess in sixty six, right,
was that? Was that? Right? They were? They came and
then and then was Cincinnati in sixty eight. How was
the Cincinnati experience different than the Miami experience? Maybe, you know,
given that you know, Paul was getting back into the game,
and well, you know, they were very similar in a
lot of respects that, you know, as far as the
(07:36):
people coming in and and uh uh, you know, turnover
staff and the turnover of players. But I think that
Paul was just a little bit more organized and discipline.
Uh and you know evidence by the fact that you know,
Miami had to pick up and move their training camp
a couple of weeks after we were into the into
(07:56):
the practice season. We were up in in uh camp area,
Saint Petersburg Beach, in a makefield and a makeshift filled
that they just put some sod down and and it
was just, uh, it was horrible experience. So that's when
we moved down to Saint uh Andrew's Boys' School in
(08:17):
boc Over Town and the practice and that was our
home for the preseason for a lot of years. Paul
wouldn't be gone for that, would he join? No, no, no,
But but again, uh, you know, a lot of similarities,
and you know, Paul, with his experience and disciplined approach,
(08:38):
made it, I think worked a little bit smoother. What
was that And I don't know if you remember that
first meeting at all. You know Trump he had talked
about that first meeting a little bit, and uh An
albow Champ actually talked about it a little bit. Paul
was pretty Paul was pretty unfronted. He was the guy
and nobody he was the guy at the top. Well,
(08:59):
you know, again, I had I think that at that
time I probably had more of a relationship with the
Paul Brown than anybody else because the quarterback and you know,
the coach and and you know, we we came down
to Cincinnati a few times, just the two of us
h for some meetings and for some things that were
(09:20):
going on, and we'd talk and you know, not only
football but personal too. He was a good guy. And
people don't understand and really know the other side of
Paul Brown. But there was so much trusture on him
after coming here from Cleveland. H you know, he this
is the approach he took that you know, it's my way,
(09:40):
and I'm going to make sure everybody understands that you
like him as a guy, right, I mean you just
you like, you'll never mind a coach, but a guy. Yep, yep.
They was a very nice man. And uh, you know,
people don't understand and you know what they'd see. They'd
see that real tough looking image out there. You know,
this guy that doesn't doesn't care about anything. But that's
(10:03):
not true. And he did care about, you know, the
players and how they were doing personally and all these
other things. But there's just not enough time and for
him to share and to do all that well. He joined.
It had to be something that it had to mean
a lot that he turned to you to be the
first guy to be the first Bengal. I mean, you
(10:23):
know he talked about that in the drafting with John
Jeff and I think what happened was he could see
he came down to Miami, Florida when I was with
the Dolphins and I was just coming back from a
broken leg, blue it or not, and I was working out,
and everybody thought he's coming down to look at Rick Norton.
And Rick Norton was the number one or one of
(10:45):
the high draft races from the University of Kentucky, and
he was he was there as a backup quarterback or
as a quarterback on the team. Everybody thought he was
coming down the ruler at Rick And here, you know,
I'm I'm working out doing the things I normally do,
you know, running the running the drills and the passing
(11:07):
and doing everything, and here he's looking at me. And
after a couple of days after that, Georgia H. Wilson
calls me into his office and says, hey, John, Paul
Brown wants you to go to Cincinnati. George Wilson, being
the Dolphins head coach, Yes, right right, And what did
(11:28):
you say that? Did you? Did you almost? What was
your response to that? Well, it was great, It was great,
you know, just knowing that you know, you have an
opportunity that there's a there's uh a new team again.
And you know, again with I think that the fact
that see I will also I played the minor leagues
Jeff for a couple of years, and because at Buffalo,
(11:50):
where I went to school, we only threw the ball
four or five times, San Diego wanted to draft me.
And that's a long story. But anyway, and they said, oh,
go ahead and let's we got plenty of time. I John,
go ahead and tell that one. But Diego, well, well
what happened was, uh san Diego wanted to draft me
(12:10):
in and Buffalo says, oh, no, he's in our backyard today,
and something that they called territorial rights, right, So so
what happened was, uh san Diego is okay, and the
Buffalo then says, well, we're not going to drafted. You
can just come over here and come as a free agent.
And I said bull crap. So uh san Diego said, okay, John,
(12:31):
here's what we're gonna do. You have some potential, they felt.
But they said you need to go and work and
throw the ball. So I went to they don'to beach thunderbirds.
But after he was a head coacher and and he
we threw the ball forty fifty times a game, Jeff.
And that's where I really developed and really, you know,
(12:51):
they're not only thrown about the reading of defenses and
everything else and goes along with the passing game. And
that was probably the best thing that I have ever
happened to me. Yeah, and then and then obviously the
call came to Miami. Right, you went from there to
Uh did you go from there to Miami? No? Oh? Yeah?
(13:11):
Then I went to the Dolphins, right and uh that's
where I started. Yes, yeah, because that's really that's probably
from where you were located. That's that's what cuts you
the job in Miami? Yea, yea. And then um the
when you guys, Um, did Paul sit down and talk
(13:32):
to you at all? Did he you know, did you
talk to him at all? Or before he decided to
make the trade? Did he talked to me before? Yeah,
before he made the trade? But no, Yeah, but but
I'm sure that you know, he spent enough time down
there personally talking to a lot of people and uh
and just making sure there was gonna be a good fit.
(13:55):
Did you did you? Uh? I mean you know, I mean,
like you know, did you feel did you feel pressure
being the first Bengal being basically the face of no,
just the opposite. I mean, you feel you feel a
real uh deep feeling of belief in yourself that you know,
(14:15):
you know you can do it and you wanted to
do it, and you know it was it was a
real highlight just being being selected as the first player
that Paul Brown wanted. Yeah. I mean that's quite a
I mean that's quite a that's quite a statement. Uh
the uh did he and I and I you know,
(14:37):
he would pretty straight forward guy. He told you what
he wanted, what he's expecting of you. He sure did. Yeah,
and uh and you know and hopefully uh, you know,
winning three games that year, Jeff, I think it was
a good indication that that we did have something and
he did think that I can do it, and I
did it right, and it wasn't easy, and it would
(14:59):
be the starting court back in the three games we won,
the most by any expansion team. I think you look
back and say, holy come, that was a pretty good
a pretty good situation and an outcome because, uh, you know,
with the turnover the personnel, I don't know how many
people we went through that first year. You know, just
(15:20):
shuffling in in and out off the team and trying
to have some organization and stability is not was not easy. Now,
the famous story, obviously is Trump he had six roommates
that that first training camp. So but but Sam, but
Sam said the quarterbacks were by themselves. So I guess
you guys were there was you there was two we
won't warn. It was Sam Wish and uh a kid
(15:44):
named Davis, right, Uh, yeah, there were there were the
three of us and uh, you know again, you don't
go through what we went through without some injuries or
bumps or bruisers or aches and pains or you know,
some of these old things holding you back too. And
that was the reason that we had to have and
(16:06):
keep you know, the the quarterbacks there, keep them uh
ready to go at any time, because who knows what
was going to happen and what it was going to happen. Yeah.
The uh one of the great things about my eighth
down in Miami was you actually helped the actor Alan
Alda with uh with his performance in Paper Alliance, Right,
(16:30):
you like you were like a consultant on that movie
or something, Right, Well, I was. I was down there
and I got a call. I don't know who set
it up, but suddenly said that you might want to
talk to these folks or or doing a movie and
and so I didn't. And then we started talking as well,
you know, I can help, you know, do some fundamentals
(16:51):
with Alan Alda, who was you know, the star of
the show and what he was doing. I guess is
he was portraying Joy Clinton, who was a who was
a writer and had written a book Paper Lion, and
so they were doing the movie version of that exactly right,
And so I got I got a you know, a
(17:11):
couple of speaking parts in the movie. And then in
addition to being in a movie, I did some of
the training and helping Alan Alda, you know, prepare for
what he was about to do with the football and
learned a little bit about some of the skills. What
kind of guy was he? John guy? Yeah? Yeah, you know.
(17:36):
An amazing thing is it was just a nice fit there.
It was a Detroit Lions or the team that was
down in Miami. That's where he went to. That's where
he went to Allen Alda when he was or George Flinton,
I mean when he wrote to when he was writing
the book. He was up in Detroit with the Lions,
(17:59):
and so they were using the core of the Lions, uh,
players and coaches and you know, with any extras like
myself and some others in Miami. So so it was
really and also just just being on a set and
sing how that stuff works? Yeah, I you know, how
(18:19):
how is uh did you play anybody specific in the movie. No, no, no,
I was just one one of the one of the
backup quarterbacks. And that it was nameless. What did you say?
What was your lines? What? We oh, I can't even remember.
(18:41):
We'll have to dig that up. Chart. That's pretty good.
It was, it was, it was interesting and so and
actually when when when you know, before the night before
the game. Paul always used to take the players to
a movie. Yeah and so and so what happened? Uh?
(19:01):
The movie we went to was The Paper Lion, and
that was what I said, Okay, guys, I'll be ready.
And although my, my, my, my appearance was a little
was brief and short. Hey there get you get a
lot of crap from the guys, a little you know
(19:21):
normally uh rational a little bit. But it was fun.
All that fun. Yeah. Well and then then and then
of course out, I mean all the hits. It huge
with mash you get to see him every week. He
became huge. Yeah, yep, yep, sure did Yeah did you
have do you keep in touch with him or was
that pretty much? No? No, no, I think I ran
(19:42):
into him once or twice, but no, that was it
was just it was that was his thing, and I
did my thing and then after that he went where
I went mine. Joy, you played at Buffalo, all right,
that's who played in college ball? You from up around there?
But yeah, I the aversion of Buffalo. Yeah are you
(20:02):
from there? Is that where you're from? Now? From Johnstown, Pennsylvania?
How are you going home? Of Atrell Hawkins? I went
to Hawkins because I played three sports, played football, past
fall and baseball. Yeah. And then um and even though
you were here two years though, you made lifelong relationships, right,
I mean on that team. Yes. As a matter of fact,
(20:25):
you know the guy that I worked out with here
in Cincinnati when I went before the season. We came
up from Miami early and like in uh, I think
in December. Uh, and there's nobody here except Mike Brown. Yeah,
you know, and so Mike and Paul. So I would
work out over Princeton High School with with Mike would
(20:47):
throw the ball and we've become pretty good friends. Yeah. Yeah,
How was Mike to catch it? How was I? Was
Mike a good catch? Sure? We'd run patterns and I'd
running for him, he'd running from me, just just you know,
trying to get some exercise as well as just throwing
and and uh. With a drop, working on on my
(21:09):
drop and my my my technique, and he was a
good guy to work with. Yeah. Of course Mike was
a college quarterback at Documents, so yep, he was. So anyway,
that was and you know, getting Mike Brown and you
know he's done a wonderful job. I think, uh, you know,
(21:31):
taking over running the club, doing the things needed to
be done to make it work. You yeah, yeah, go ahead,
go ahead, And I say, just and with his with
his daughter and here Katie and her husband Troy. I
think that, you know, keeping it all together and keeping
control of the situation, that's the key. Mike is where
(21:54):
very knowledgeable, knows what's going on, and uh, you know,
he's not going to let anybody come in and from
brow beat him or or what have you. He knows,
he knows the game, he knows what needs to be done,
and he's he's done. He gets a lot of a
lot of criticism for being cheap or not paying for
(22:17):
that stop you know that, and that you know, the
Bengals have a salary out there that's uh pretty good
upper middle I would guess yea. And so when it
comes to signing the ball players and giving him what
theyny he'll do he does that, and he'll continue continue
to do it. I know, I know he's often said
when he signed some of these deals. I remember when
(22:39):
he gave Kajana Kadra seven million dollars signing bonus, and
he said, geez, we bought the franchise for seven point
two you know. So but you know, sometimes you know,
and yet there are a lot of clubs that have
had the same situation where you know, somebody doesn't work
out the way you expect him to. You know, you
were saying, you know, the wives became close. Uh your
(23:01):
your your wife and Mike Brown's wife, Nancy, uh Sam
and Pat Trump and Jane Wish you know, they were
all they were all close and and you know, you
talk about building a chemistry, and I think that's a
good start there, you know, and people believing, and people
feel all part of it, and you feel friends and
(23:23):
you want to do it together. And I think that
one of the reasons that the Bengals had some early
success again was because of you know this this uh
trying to get the right people on board, get the
right chemistry, get the right processes going. And that's not
easy to do and it's the players really make it
(23:44):
work and getting the you know, as we said before
about you know, the Dolphins when they were doing or
whether it was the packers or distillers or whoever, but
they have this belief. It's it's the players say, Okay,
this is the way we do things here, and they
control and they make it work. The wives, I guess
you said, you know, they they would antique. I remember
(24:06):
Mike talking about that. How U Nancy and Pat and
Jane would you know, would antique And I even think
when I even think when Mike and Sam had to
split that Christmas Eve split, I think Jane and I
think Jane and Nancy I think they were still going
out antique and I think and all that. Sure, Oh yeah,
(24:28):
you know the wives, my wife Katie and Jane and
Nancy and and uh Pat are still friends and you know,
they still do things. And you know, they really didn't
get that much. Maybe Nancy did because she was a
lot closer to the football part of it. Yeah, but
the wives they're not talking football. They're talking antiques, and
(24:50):
they're having lunch and they're doing the things that women do. Yeah, yeah,
that you know, my you know, Mike, you know, and
Mike was people forget Mike was almost your guy's age
at that point point and uh, you know, not that
much older. I remember tells a great story where Bob
Johnson had to save him from some wild dog during
a walk, uh when they were living in Glendale. You know,
(25:13):
thank you. I mean it's uh, you know, it's some
some funny stories where where you know, where it all began.
It doesn't seem possible it's fifty years ago, it does it? John? No,
it sure it does not. Boy, it seems like, you know,
just a couple of weeks ago. And and and the more
you talk about it, you know, the the more memories
you have, and uh, I guess maybe some of them
(25:36):
may grow a little bip, but uh, it was. It
was a great time. It's a it's a it's a
great sport to bring people together and uh and make
the personalities work. Did you guys settle in Cincinnati, John,
you and Katie after because we've been here. Yeah, we've
been here for uh oh since we left just for
(26:00):
fifteen years just game to go to uh Columbus. This
was like fifteen years ago. And then we came back
to me there our daughter and grandkids who were still
our daughter Tracy, and she's still in Cincinnati with her children,
and Katie and I came back to be near them
and us just wonderful. Well, Cincinnati is a great time. Why.
(26:23):
I mean, you know, you could have lived any you know,
you played in Miami, you play, you played all well,
you played a couple of other clubs after you left here.
I mean, why did you come back to Cincy Because
we are our children were born here and they made
a lot of friends, and we made a lot of
friends just in the time we were here. And you
were only here two years, right, John, You're only here
two Yeah, But we we we got a home here,
(26:45):
we built a home, and we'd we'd go to Miami
or Denver or wherever I was playing, and then we'd
come back in the off season. The kids started school
in Cincinnati, and then when I was traded or you know,
when I moved to Miami again, Uh would start school
down there or Jacksonville and or world football, like when
(27:08):
I was in Jacksonville or Denver. When I was out
in Denver, Nick come back here the second half the
year with their their old their schoolmates, and and uh,
it was it was just a great time. What was
the Uh do you still do you still fall? I mean,
you know, do you do you watch him every Sunday?
Did you used to watch him every Sunday? I mean,
(27:28):
how do you you still do you still follow them
the football? Do I still watch them? Yeah? The Bengals? Yeah?
You still follow the Bengals? Yeah? Yeah, I do the Bengals?
Are you know? Uh, like a part of you. You know,
you spent so much time and knowing that, knowing the Browns,
and and knowing that a lot of the team guys,
(27:49):
not many of the players, but you know people in
the uh, in the front office, and and Marvin's done
a wonderful job and trying to get keep us involved
some degree. So let me just wait. So anyway, who
(28:11):
was the best? Uh? Who's what do you want to do?
Do you want to get that charter? No? No, no,
that We're all right? Okay, sorry, sorry about that. That's
um the how good was Greg Cook? Well? Greg Cook
(28:34):
was a real good prospect. Greg Cook had the physical ability,
he had the strong arm, uh and uh he fit
them all of the quarterback and Paul Brown uh personally
thought that that Greg And then Greg did he he
(28:56):
was everything. I think that Paul wanted him to be. Uh.
But you know, guy, whatever happened to Greg with his
shoulder and his arm, I think that created the initial
problems where he had some issues. Yeah, yeah, but he
was he was pretty good in that oh in nineteen sixty. Yeah,
(29:19):
and you look at you know, his his ability. And
again see when when when Paul Brown saw Greg and
and he wanted to make sure that I was taken
care of, believe it or not. And you know, so
he he had called, uh, had said something up with
the uh, the the Detroit Lions. I wanted to Detroit
(29:42):
and uh they had the need for a quarterback temporarily
because they had had two guys who were hurt and
Landry and I forget the other guy they were both
had started and so when they come back, you know,
I was gone. So I told Paul, I said, Paul,
that's not gonna work. So so I came back here,
(30:06):
spent the rest of that year here, and then went
back to Miami. This is when Greg was here now
right right, So, but but work out and you know
you're just it's it's not an easy life, Jeff, Yeah, No,
it's uh, that's uh that's especially in nineteen sixty eight.
It wasn't easy. Uh, And then now and now fifty
(30:30):
years later, you get a guy like Dalton playing quarterback.
What do you what do you? What do you think
of him? I like I like Andy Dalton. I think
that he's he's smooth, he is some leadership ability. He
uh he fits what they need right now. Is there one?
Is there one image from that game on August third,
(30:50):
nineteen sixty eight still hangs with you and Nipperdstein and
anything I might step in my mind. I think just
coming out in the Bengal uniform for the first time
with my teammates and meeting all these new fans. Uh,
it was it was it was just something special. Well, John,
(31:11):
you're you're you're something special. And I really want to
thank you for checking in with us and talking talking
about it, and uh, we'll be talking many times, I
think during this fiftieth season, and uh, always good to
talk to you. Thanks for joining us,
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