October 23, 2024 • 42 mins
Sometimes it's just dope to hear brilliant people talk. Today we get to learn from the the guys over at the Fire and Fury podcast, journalist Michael Wolff, author of Fire and Fury: Inside the Trump White House, and James Truman, former editorial director of Condé Nast. We hear about their thoughts on the upcoming election, if Trump is really as bad as we think he is and what Kamala has to do to if she wants to win.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:03):
Media.
Speaker 2 (00:05):
All right, man, listen, this is big.
Speaker 3 (00:09):
Most of the people we've invited onto this show are
people like I know or are in our network. I
ain't never except for the Garrison Hayes joint ever cold
called anybody shout out ian you know what I'm saying.
The one of the executive producers that cools on, I
was like, Yo, we should get the Fire and Fury
(00:29):
fools And I was like, the Fire and Fury Fools
d Michael Wolf homie that wrote the book, Like so
like actual journalist guys.
Speaker 2 (00:41):
So that's this show is.
Speaker 3 (00:44):
I interview the host of the Fire and Fury podcast,
some brilliant, brilliant dudes.
Speaker 4 (00:51):
Man.
Speaker 3 (00:52):
And I'm really excited about doing this because it's almost
like politics is like this is like when Easy when
to the White House, you feel me, Like, you know,
we had Jerry Crow juice dripping all over the White
House lawn.
Speaker 2 (01:05):
You feel me.
Speaker 3 (01:06):
Kendrick my second Lpie had real niggas on potus line,
you know.
Speaker 2 (01:10):
So like.
Speaker 3 (01:12):
This us putting our big boy pants on and really
seeing if like I mean, I'm pretty positive, but like
really testing out some of our theories on just the
premise of the show that like, man, you grew up
in the city, you understand politics. So here's my interview
with Michael Wolfe and James Truman of the Fire and
(01:36):
Fury podcast. We're gonna be like, y'oll how fire is
the fire psych But first.
Speaker 2 (01:41):
It's like this bull look is like this bull look
is like this Okay.
Speaker 3 (01:53):
So in a burst of bravery, just the moral fortitude
and conviction all that America could muster. After watching Israel
continue to deny food and services to the people of Palestine,
(02:17):
America finally grew a backbone and wrote a letter wrote
a letter to Israel, gave them a good stern talking
to that if they continue to block AID, then we're
(02:42):
gonna stop giving them them sweet sweet sweet life enders
that they so enjoy. I'm telling you, I told you,
if you keep doing this, we're gonna stop selling you
those those world enders you like so much. Like those
world enders, We're gonna stop selling to you. You don't
(03:06):
let the food go in there to the people you
actively killing. We're gonna, we're gonna, we're gonna stop. BB said,
I wish you would. You ain't gonna do shit?
Speaker 2 (03:24):
Is what pitchment that y'all said, You ain't gonna do shyet.
So there's that.
Speaker 3 (03:33):
Speaking of Israel, they killed the leader of from us
on accident. And now this man, his name has become
a verb sinoir when you like you threw a sinoar
stick at it. Basically, I'm giving everything I have for
the cause to do my absolute best. That's what his
name has become now that they accidentally killed him. And
(03:54):
when I say accidentally killed him, I mean accidentally. They've
been looking for this man. He been in the tunnels,
but being in the tunnels really sucks. So he just
happened to go up for some mayor for a while
and some rookies, dudes that have been in the military
for nine months, just happened to catch a glance of
a uniform and was like, Hey, is that.
Speaker 2 (04:16):
One of them? Is that a mod sneak over there?
Hey is that one of the Hey those.
Speaker 3 (04:21):
Guys over there, We'll send the drone in the look.
I sent the drone in the look and they was like, yes,
there's some ops in there. So they shot it up,
just thinking it's just a couple of ops. Turns out
they killed the leader. Boy, I tell you, After igniting
(04:49):
a famine, a continuous work after setting an area back
decades all accident, they killed the man, to which the
(05:10):
rest of the world is like, okay, so are we
good now? Can you can we go get back to
getting the hostages? Like are we good? You done kill
the leader of hesbe Blood? You done kill the leader
of Amasu? And of course both a hes Blood and
Hamas are like cribs don't die, We just multiply.
Speaker 2 (05:27):
But can we okay? Can we?
Speaker 3 (05:31):
Can we cease the firing now? Is like you captured
the you sank the battleship, you captured the checkmate, Like
can we what are we still doing?
Speaker 2 (05:46):
Benjamin?
Speaker 1 (05:47):
None?
Speaker 2 (05:47):
Y'all who over there looking like Kobe Bryant, job's not doing?
Job's not doing? And like what job?
Speaker 3 (05:52):
So the job is exactly what we thought your job was,
which is wiped them out. That's your job, because you
I feel like this should be mission accomplished. Gone get
your hostages, just like this seems like you got a bargainship.
Speaker 2 (06:07):
But now you know, Benjamin want them to promise, promise
you'll never become mummas again. Like I don't know why.
Speaker 3 (06:15):
You think that's possible anyway. In the home Front, a
couple of things. Turns out the legalization of marijuana, it
clearly ain't had nothing to do with marijuana. It had
to do with Monday. And these new super addictive hybrids
(06:36):
are like causing psychosis apparently, And in a big old
dub people like, oh it turns out its addictive. Of course,
like what substance, because addiction is us, like it's us,
it's not them. Anyway, it turns out marijuana could be addicted.
Some people just shouldn't smoke weed. That's a big old
(06:57):
duh anyway. And lastly, and are just such wonderful, beautiful, amazing, respectful,
high browed discussions about our next president. As Auntie Kamala
continues to try to convince everybody she is safe Negro,
(07:18):
she looking to black men being like, but I got
y'all's back, I'm your Auntie.
Speaker 2 (07:22):
I love y'all vote for me.
Speaker 3 (07:27):
And while I can hold two things at the same
time to meet personally, I feel like Donald Trump is
just a non starter. I can still say that Auntie
might fumbled his bag if she don't figure out this
Gaza thing.
Speaker 2 (07:45):
She's like, you just it's it's just a layup.
Speaker 3 (07:54):
And I wonder if she feels the same way Jade
Evans feels about admitting that Donald Trump is crazy, where
she's like like, come on, y'all know I can't say this,
but but we don't know, Like, well, that means that
I can't trust you. So she's trying to thread a
(08:20):
needle that it to me just seems like this is
an unnecessary thread. You could just I'm telling you, like
the at the very least, you could have let you
could have let a Palestinian speak at the DNC, because
they didn't.
Speaker 2 (08:36):
They gave you the whole what has bewitched you anyway?
Speaker 3 (08:44):
Because everybody know you're not gonna not support is Like
we know you go support Israel, but anyway, on the whole,
Trumpet it all that man said I'm gonna prosecute my enemies,
and turns out he absolutely meant it. My man, My
(09:05):
man said, he putting Liz Cheney on trial, He putting
the Biden family, y'all try, He putting Kamalade Harris on trial.
He putting the New York Times on trial. He like, oh,
y'all need to go to diddy. Anybody don't with me,
y'all going to jail? Like the demand y'all act like
it's hyperbole, and I just need you to think back
(09:27):
to the amount of times that this man told you
exactly what he planned to do, and y'all said it
was hyperbole. I mean, I like in some senses, I mean,
game recognized Gabe the man, the man.
Speaker 2 (09:41):
The man said what he said, and.
Speaker 3 (09:49):
He doing it at Our media continues to not learn
its lesson because it keeps saying in Trump's going more
and more off the rails, talking about he gonna bring
in the military and use the military.
Speaker 2 (10:05):
Against the America, against the enemies within.
Speaker 3 (10:07):
I know he said that, and he said it because
he meant it, like I just are y'all.
Speaker 2 (10:14):
Y'are not paying attention, are you?
Speaker 3 (10:18):
Anyway? We got a few more days. I'm so excited
about our elections like this.
Speaker 2 (10:50):
All right, all right, all right, ladies and gentlemen.
Speaker 3 (10:53):
We got two giants, two very brilliant, brilliant, brilliant, brilliant
men on our show. Here. We got Michael Wolf and
James Truman. What's up, fellas a man, I'm wonderful, man.
I really appreciate y'all doing this. I'm just gonna jump
(11:13):
into it because y'all's time is very valuable.
Speaker 2 (11:15):
You guys like our actual jump away jump away you.
Speaker 3 (11:19):
Know, so, first of all, again, thank you. We've already
done intros. My people know who you are. But generally,
like the premise of this show is like growing up
in urban areas, you know, and you know what I
mean when I say urban areas.
Speaker 2 (11:31):
Let's be be very transparent what urban means.
Speaker 3 (11:35):
But the premise of the show is that navigating the
different sort of auspices and spaces that you had to
growing up in just America, urban areas, specifically in the nineties,
I have found that we're much more equipped to understand
politics than we're given credit for. You know that there's
there's there's a lot of like transferable skills and tools
(11:58):
and just discerning whether it's political strategy, activating a base,
avoiding sort of like political landmines and stuff like that
you understand more than you do by just having to
navigate inner city living. And I'm excited about this because
I feel like oftentimes, I know, I've listened to y'all's pod,
I read Fire and Theory and just kind of like
(12:18):
as a in some ways, like a proof text to
be like, okay, was I am? I tripping like is
this what I think it is? You know, and then
hearing you guys talk and go oh no, yeah, no
this No, that's that's what we thought. So so this
is really exciting for me for somebody who like actually
was there, you know, because you know, at the end
(12:39):
of the day, we weren't there.
Speaker 2 (12:40):
Y'all were there.
Speaker 3 (12:41):
So I say all that to say this, like jumping
in specifically about about Donald Trump himself, I feel like
and a lot of the people that came up with
me and and for better or for worse, are like,
we all know this guy. We've I met this guy,
We've you know, whatever archetype of this guy is, We've
(13:05):
been seeing him our whole life, you know. And as
a father, I personally feel like, okay, you have all
the attributes I teach my children not to have, you know, right, Like,
this is the complete opposite of what I want my
kids to be. But my first question is is it
as bad as we think it is?
Speaker 1 (13:28):
Well, I would probably say yes and no, okay, yes,
because it's it's it's it's Donald Trump, and he is like, no, Actually,
it's curious to hear you say you know who this
person is because I actually don't know who this person is.
I have never ever in in my relatively wide experience,
(13:55):
come upon someone certainly as as success esful as he
is and as absolutely off the rails as as he is.
So that's completely confounding.
Speaker 2 (14:11):
But sure.
Speaker 1 (14:12):
But the the the the other. The other point about
whether how bad it is is it's a new kind
of situation in which Donald Trump makes a lot of
promises and he makes a lot of threats, and it's a,
to say the least, a scary world that he outlines.
(14:33):
At the same time, he's not very interested in any
of this. He's not very interested in accomplishing anything. What
he's interested in is is himself and being famous and
getting attention. He's certainly not interested in policies and legislation
and and any of the kinds of things that we
(14:54):
would say, well, well, that's that's what government does, and
that's why it's that's why it's good, or that's why
it's bad.
Speaker 2 (15:03):
Yeah, No, that's that's beautiful.
Speaker 3 (15:05):
And I appreciate you making that distinction, because you're right, like,
there's I don't know if anybody who's able to just
make physics not work, like just the rules of the
rules of the universe just don't apply to him. But
just in the sense and like you said, like someone
who's like I can listen to you talk and just
be like, you sound like the most incompetent person I've
ever met.
Speaker 2 (15:26):
But why does this work? You know?
Speaker 3 (15:28):
But I think what it is familiar is just this bully,
this just completely detached, the complete detachment from what you're
actually saying, but just really just liking power and is like,
and I will do whatever it takes to maintain that.
And I don't owe any of you guys anything. I
don't have any long term friends because I've burnt them,
you know, and like and those are things that again,
(15:51):
like you know, for me, like, that's a red flag
if I meet it. If I meet a person who
you know, any you know what I mean friends all
your friends are new, then I'm like, how that's there's
something wrong if you don't have any long term friendships,
you know, I'm like, and I'm looking at you, and
I'm going, well, yours are all in jail.
Speaker 1 (16:09):
So what's what's your view on why this this works?
Speaker 3 (16:16):
I mean, there's I have I have, that's a good question,
I have.
Speaker 2 (16:20):
I have two thoughts on it.
Speaker 3 (16:22):
One of it, I feel like is just good old
fashioned racism, just the fact that like America has just
never dealt with its original sin, and and a desire
to see.
Speaker 2 (16:36):
Things go back to a way where.
Speaker 3 (16:40):
Ultimately a stratification of our society that places a particular
people group on top and everyone's subordinate to that.
Speaker 2 (16:48):
And I think he speaks to that. At the end
of the day, there is that.
Speaker 3 (16:51):
On the other hand, I do think there's a part
that's what I meant by for better or for worse.
I do think there's a part that's familiar to who
I would say, anyone who's come from a type of
struggle to.
Speaker 2 (17:08):
Have sort of a like.
Speaker 3 (17:11):
Without using like a profanity, but just like an f
the world attitude, like you know, I'm gonna get mine,
you know, and if it means taking it from you,
it don't matter. I'm going to get mine and you
can either come with me or not. And I and
and just the guy that walks in the room, that's
that's scarface godfather that like, you know, And there's a
(17:33):
type of bravado that I think resonates to inside of
a person who has never felt like they've had the
courage to become that, or just the moral fortitude to
understand that, like I have too much morality, you know,
to actually step into a world that would allow myself
to say the quiet things out loud. So in my mind,
(17:56):
I feel like it's those two things, like you get
to be you get to live out of bullief fantasy,
a gangster fantasy that the rest of us know better,
you know, And and to me, I would step to
the other side of that and say, that's what I
mean by like, well, I know that guy, he's he's
doing ten to twenty five, you know, like you know,
(18:16):
so like he's doing ten to twenty five and his
best friend is on his second child, that with your wife,
you know, while you're in jail, you know.
Speaker 2 (18:25):
What I'm saying.
Speaker 3 (18:25):
So I'm like, I know this guy, you know, and
none of your friends trust you, nobody likes you. You really,
you really don't have power. Everybody just can't wait for
you to leave and take your spot. So I'm like,
I know your future. That's what I mean by I'm
familiar with you. But to your point to take that
and become a president is absolutely mind boggling to me.
Speaker 4 (18:49):
Yeah, yeah, do you think you just explained to us
the thing that no one seems to understand right now,
which is why Kamala is losing black and Hispanic males
to Trump.
Speaker 3 (19:01):
I think, man, that's man, I like how this is
switching the game here.
Speaker 2 (19:04):
I think I think that there's a part of that.
Speaker 3 (19:08):
I think that, like, the thing that I'm explaining is
not specifically a Black and Hispanic thing. I think it
has more to do with the It's more socioeconomic than
than ethnic. You know what I'm saying, because because I
think Black and Hispanic people traditionally are very much more
center right than anything because of our faith and our
(19:29):
church backgrounds. But we're also very very transactional when it
comes to politics. It's like, look, man, who's who's gonna
give me what I need?
Speaker 2 (19:38):
You know?
Speaker 3 (19:39):
And And at the end of the day, there's also within,
like to be truthful, within the Black and Hispanic community,
a lot of misogyny. There's a lot of patriarchy that
still sits into our world and is really hard to
reckon with, you know what I mean, and really, and
I think shows up in ways that like, you know,
(20:00):
we're okay with like you know, Grandma being.
Speaker 2 (20:02):
The matriarch of our family.
Speaker 3 (20:04):
But at the same time Grandma looking at you and
saying you need to be a man at a house,
you know.
Speaker 2 (20:08):
And and I.
Speaker 3 (20:09):
Think that those those two things, like I think kind
of a kind of play a role, you know. But
I think it's it's much less like she doesn't have
the bravado, and it's more like, what are you going
to do for us?
Speaker 2 (20:26):
You know?
Speaker 3 (20:26):
And even if like you said, like Trump will make
a promise, and it's like, if you sit back for
a second, you could say, well, the same argument he's
using for her, which is, well you had a chance,
you know, And like, right right, I do have a
question for y'all though, around the same thing around like
this this vice president debate, which now is it feels
(20:48):
like it might as well been during the Great Depression,
you know, as long you know, But just this, I
listened to y'all's pod about it and decided I didn't
need to make one about it because I was like,
you guys kind of already said it, you know, But
just this like my dad can beat up your dad
type debate, which doesn't like doesn't really do anything. It
doesn't mean your dad could beat me up. It just
(21:10):
or beat up your dad. It just means you made
a beg and a better argument, you know. And and
I think that, like I kind of feel like, I mean,
what does the vice president do anyway? He just kind
of caught him out at you know, Christmases and holidays
to you know, kind of show.
Speaker 2 (21:28):
Show your face. So so I'm curious about this.
Speaker 3 (21:31):
What do you think the traction of this this these
attack lines around Kamala having the power to make change
now and not in acting the change that that she
says she can make. While at the same time I'm
watching this going, well, she's the vice president, Like that's she.
Speaker 2 (21:52):
You know what I mean, Like it's how you gonna
blame her, you know what I mean.
Speaker 3 (21:55):
Uh So, so I just wonder if, like if her
record as as the vice matters, you know.
Speaker 1 (22:03):
More than you know, I mean, cious curiously, this is
this vice presidential debate is one of the rare times
when it actually redounded to the benefit of the top
of the ticket. So, you know, I mean, again, not
good news for for Harris and the Democrats. And I'm
(22:28):
not exactly sure why. I mean, Dvance was better than Walls,
but you know, not not that much better. This was
certainly not a not a Trump Biden situation. So why
this should be, why this should matter more than most
vice presidential debates, I'm not certain, you know, I might
(22:53):
conjecture that both on the part of Harris and the
part of Walls, there are questions that voters feel they
are not answering, that they are avoiding, that they are
trying not to show themselves. When she declared yesterday the
day before that, you know, when challenged on her scriptedness,
(23:15):
and she said, that's what that's called is discipline. You know,
I think that that is the problem. I mean, I
think she thinks it's discipline, and I think and I
think many voters feel that it's it's a lack of transparency,
it's it's her hiding, it's it's fakery.
Speaker 2 (23:40):
Man.
Speaker 3 (23:40):
That almost feels like a sort of a byproduct of
the lurching that Trump did, you know what I mean
to be like, like, I think to your point, there
was a time that we thought discipline was good.
Speaker 1 (23:53):
You know, No, no, no, I think I think.
Speaker 2 (23:56):
You should say everything that pops in your head, you know.
Speaker 1 (23:58):
Yeah, no, yeahs, you know, but I think it's part
of the whole ways that Trump has upended everything about
politics and about political disc discourse, about political performance, about
the nature of campaigning itself. I mean, this is now performance,
(24:19):
and the performance is can I hold your attention? And
can I hold your attention with doing whatever? It really
doesn't matter what I do, just as long as I'm
holding your attention, which he does.
Speaker 3 (25:04):
To your point about being able to like answer a
question better, like, I found that very interesting about Jade
Vance in the sense of, you know, to use the
to use the example of like my dad can beat
up your dad. Well, you said it better, But that
doesn't actually mean that your dad could beat up my dad.
It just means you were better at making the argument. No.
Speaker 1 (25:23):
Well, and that's why we've we've we've entered this whole
thing that that actually the issue of competence is not
an issue. What it is is the issue of communication
and connection and emotional appeal.
Speaker 3 (25:39):
Yeah, which which really leads me to this, to this
this the j six you know Fumble even in his
interview with Lulu Garcia uh Navarro on ah on the
New York Times, in my opinion, it's a gotcha question.
There's no way he can answer this question truly. Of
did Trump lose the twenty two the election. You know,
(26:01):
it's in the sense that, I mean, come on, guys
like you, like you, he can't answer.
Speaker 1 (26:07):
This question, you know, no, but it's very it's very
clear what's going going on there. It's a kind of
triage at this at this point, he can't he can't
say that because then he would fall out with Trump.
So therefore, therefore that's a non starter. He cannot he
cannot tell the truth. Yeah, therefore he he you know,
(26:32):
he has no alternative but to but to try to
fudge the question. Yeah, And I mean, he he's he's certain,
he certainly knows that I'm gonna look foolish, but better
I look foolish then I then I fall out with
Donald Trump. Man.
Speaker 3 (26:50):
I I saw that, and I flashed back to being
thirteen year old, and you know, I just saw I
just saw this bully steal my friend's bike. And then
and then somebody walks up and goes, hey, whose bike
is that?
Speaker 2 (27:08):
And I'm looking at both of them, knowing.
Speaker 3 (27:10):
Full well that you just I'm just that le's while
I'm like, you can't be honest, like we both know
you just stole this bike.
Speaker 1 (27:19):
Exactly. There there is no there is no possibility. And
I think everybody, I mean, that's the other thing about
the about the world of Donald Trump. Everybody understands something
that is every It's transparent, every everybody understands this so
so so vance isn't penalized for not not dealing with,
(27:40):
not confronting this, not telling the truth about this because
everybody knows he knows the truth. He just can't say
the truth.
Speaker 2 (27:47):
He just can't. That is fascinating to me.
Speaker 3 (27:49):
That's what I mean by like just gravity doesn't work anymore,
you know, because like we all are we just like
we all know that this is what's happening, Which leads
me to my next question, which to me is is
I land here as like one of To me, the
biggest question is like, so, why in the world would anyone.
Speaker 2 (28:13):
Want to work there?
Speaker 3 (28:15):
And I'm curious as to like I think you guys
mentioned once that like people will still like line up
to work in his cabinet, you know, but like you
just have to turn your body into a pretzel to
be able to do it, you know. And I'm just
I just again again going back to how we were raised.
It's like, oh yeah, no, stay away from him, like,
you can't this this is a lose lose situation, you know.
(28:38):
So I just wonder, like, what do you think would
be the motivation for a person to be willing to
Like do you do they just think they're different, like
that there's somehow immute immune or like are you going
to be the adults in the room? Like why would
anyone still willingly step into this environment?
Speaker 1 (28:54):
Yeah? You know, I mean all of that is is true,
and and the exceptions that you outlined are true because
everybody does think they are different, because everybody does think
that they can they can do what no one before
them has managed to do. But then there's also just
(29:15):
the just the the risk reward thing. You know, I'm
going to go in I'm going to get a job
in the in the in the in the White House. Yes,
I might be indicted, Yes you know I'm going to
be humiliated. Yes, no one is. You know, I'm not
going to be listened to. But at the end of
(29:39):
the day, there is also a very good chance that
I will come out ahead of where I am now. Now, yeah, now,
the problem with that is that there's also a very
good chance that you will be you will come out
significantly lesser than where you are now. But for some reason,
the human mind doesn't necessarily process things that way. I'll
(30:01):
take a chance. It's the old I'll take a chance.
And it is the White House.
Speaker 3 (30:05):
Yeah, I wonder if there's like a piece of some
of it's just the adrenaline, you know.
Speaker 1 (30:14):
And then that is true, it is it is the
White House. It is like, yeah, this is gonna be exciting.
I'll go along. I'll go along for the ride.
Speaker 2 (30:24):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (30:24):
And to your point, is also true that if you
befriend a bully in the belief that you're not gonna
get bulleted by the bully, but in fact, you always
end up getting bulleted by the bully because that's what
the bully does.
Speaker 2 (30:36):
That's what he does. Yeah.
Speaker 3 (30:38):
Yeah, that's that's a good point too. Yeah, that you're
just like man maybe like, yeah, at least I'd rather
be the hunter instead of the hunter. You know, I
can totally understand that.
Speaker 1 (30:48):
And remember, remember the thing is and and and this
is all part of the of the of the Trump thing.
You know, it is always better to be more famous
than you are. Yeah, and yes, and you know, and
you go into the White House, and even if you're
spit out by it. You're more famous on the other
(31:08):
side than you are on going in.
Speaker 4 (31:10):
Yeah, very true.
Speaker 2 (31:12):
Yeah, yeah, sure that's good.
Speaker 4 (31:14):
Short jail term is the price you pay for that?
Speaker 2 (31:16):
Yes, you know, you know what.
Speaker 3 (31:18):
It's a cost of business, business, the cost of business, right,
you know.
Speaker 1 (31:22):
Steve, Steve Steve Bannon gets out of jail. I believe.
I believe next maybe maybe in two weeks. And I'm
sure if you gave him the if you gave him
the choice. No, Donald Trump, none of this, none of this.
You can go back to twenty and sixteen and not
(31:43):
do it and not go to jail. He would say, no, no,
I'll go to jail.
Speaker 2 (31:48):
Absolutely not.
Speaker 1 (31:48):
I mean, all of the humiliations that Trump has met
it out to him, it doesn't make any difference. He'll
he'll take.
Speaker 3 (31:55):
It's merely a line item on your on your P
and L.
Speaker 2 (32:01):
Right. Yeah.
Speaker 3 (32:03):
So, I think my last few questions or two questions
really are like more zooming out, kind of like a
meta questions, one about your the field that you're in,
and then also about just presidencies as a whole. Like
I part of me feels like there has to be
(32:24):
some sort of hubris or I don't know, lack of
a better term, just malady to think that or even
to desire to be a president. You know, I'm gonna
look at thirty three hundred million people and go, I
could be in charge, Like I could, I could do this.
Speaker 2 (32:42):
You know. I.
Speaker 3 (32:43):
And I wonder if in y'all's experience, if it's I'm
not not not looking for no like kind of race
science or like you know, gene in there that says.
Speaker 2 (32:54):
I can be the guy or I can be the gal.
Speaker 3 (32:57):
But have you noticed is they're a personality thing inside
a world leader? Like have you noticed that they have
a thing that like because I feel like that thing
is like something wrong with you like that, like you know,
like no part of me would feel equipped for this job,
(33:19):
you know, or even want it, you know.
Speaker 2 (33:22):
So I just wonder, like, do you see a.
Speaker 3 (33:26):
Through line between people who would desire this type of position?
Speaker 1 (33:31):
Yeah, I mean I think you can fairly say anybody
who wants this job, there's something wrong with them, you know.
I mean I think that they have emotional problems. I
don't think that that's a that's far off the mark.
But the other thing is not only the assumption of
this kind of of this kind of power and that
kind of hubris. It's people who are willing to do
(33:54):
what you have to do to become the president.
Speaker 2 (33:58):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (33:59):
I mean it's years of utter unpleasantness, certainly, and I
think basically degradation, you know. I mean it's just not
in not a human enterprise, and so to do that.
I mean, by the time, if if you weren't already
(34:19):
warped as a person who wanted that job, you are
certainly going to be warped by the time you you
you get it. I mean, it's it's ludicrous. You have
to run for this for I mean, this is this
is more than a two year enterprise. You know, you
have to beg people for money. You have to eat
the shittiest food.
Speaker 2 (34:40):
Known to man at room temperature.
Speaker 1 (34:43):
You know. I mean even even even Donald Trump is
full of rage wrath at when you know, when when
he has to has to sleep in these hotels that
that they put you in. You know, what a what
a crummy life?
Speaker 2 (35:00):
Yeah, man, you gotta really want it. Yeah.
Speaker 3 (35:04):
Wow, it seems as though this uh election it being
I mean, if you believe the polls as close as
it is, it feels like it's it's either of theirs
to lose, you know, not, rather than it's there to win.
It feels like, you know, your two, your two missteps
(35:24):
away from from losing this. What would you say for
either of them would be the thing that would push
them off the ledge to to losing this?
Speaker 1 (35:37):
This thing for Kamon Law, I mean's Donald It's it's
a it's a good question. I'm not sure, you know,
I think it is his to lose and hers to win. Okay,
and and and I think that he can lose by
being Donald Trump. Now, now that's confusing because that's also
(35:57):
would be the reason that he will win. I think
she has to do in some sense, it's going to
be harder for her to win if she stays as
Kamala Harris. She has to break she has to break
character at this at this point. And you know, I mean,
I don't I'm not sure that she can do that.
(36:17):
But on the other hand, she may then just just
just have to count on him being him and you know,
shooting himself in both feet, which he is perfectly capable
of doing, absolutely a matter of fact, kind of likely
that he will do.
Speaker 3 (36:33):
Yeah, Yeah, there's a certain which I would love to
like fill in those holes too. You know, there's a
certain sort of double consciousness that like ev D Voice
and James Baldwin talks about, like that, eyes feel in
some ways a little more empathy towards Kamala in the
sense that like, at the end of the day, you're
(36:54):
still just You're still a black woman, and you're a
black woman in power, and they're just in our country.
There is a level of guarding that one has to have,
has to know to coach, which has to know how
to do this. And granted I've never gone through the
degregation it takes to run for office, but I think
in my own way, and I think any person of
(37:16):
color in their own way knows.
Speaker 2 (37:18):
That like.
Speaker 3 (37:20):
Idea that like I can't show you too much of me,
you know, just because of just the history of racism.
Now that's not an excuse for her, because like I said,
she running for president, Like you know what I'm saying,
Like I'm not running for president, you know what I mean, So,
like I can stay that guarded. But I think in
her ability to ascend the hill in the way that
she has without her having to say that, I feel
(37:43):
like that that's something that like I can see that.
I'm like, oh, yeah, Na, you can't. You can't really
talk the way you talk, you know, you can't really
say what you really thinking, you know, And I don't
know if that's like I can only again speak for
the black American experience. I can't say that this is
not true for anyone else. I'm just saying this is
true for us.
Speaker 2 (38:01):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (38:01):
No, no, And she may have you know, I mean,
she has clearly made this very fine calculation and at
the end of the day, maybe she's right.
Speaker 3 (38:10):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, Okay, cool man, Thank you so much
for your time. My last question has to do about
just the concept of investigative journalism and sort of the
work that you dudes do, which I almost heard the
sigh through through through the mic right now about this
(38:31):
of just like obviously you know it had don't exactly
dovetail well in this age of like instant news and
even me as somebody who like you know, I'm smack
dab in the millennial world where I even find it
difficult to find clips of my own pod because I'm like, well,
(38:52):
I'm building a case here, you know what I'm saying,
Like I'm that swing generation with the analog sort of
childhood and then you know, a digital like teen years.
You know what I'm saying, So, like, I still want to, like,
I need you to build a case. Tell me why
I still know how to like fact checked and like
site sources you know what I'm saying, and look at
(39:12):
like dissenting voices, like so, I even still find it
very difficult for even me to say in a thirty
second clip.
Speaker 2 (39:22):
This is the point.
Speaker 3 (39:23):
I'm like, well, I can't because the clip needs context,
and then the context needs context, and then that context
needs a historical context. So I just wonder, man, like,
how you guys dealing with it? Man, how are you
guys dealing with just an adapting adjusting? Because it's it's
(39:44):
obviously still necessary. Long form is still absolutely necessary. But
what do you guys think the future of sort of
investigative journalism is?
Speaker 1 (39:52):
Well, I don't know. I'm not I mean, I don't
even think of myself as a journalist. I'm a writer
and I'm just trying to trying to portray what I
see and yeah, uh and and James went off to
start restaurants and I'm the person who pulled him back
into this, so uh, and I think maybe, well, you know.
(40:14):
I mean, restaurants and journalism are kind of similar businesses
like terrible, like it's terrible.
Speaker 2 (40:20):
Awful, just money sucks. Yeah, got it.
Speaker 3 (40:24):
I started a coffee company, so yeah you go. You
could see the box of the case tray, the six
pack sitting right by me, just like with no coffee
in him.
Speaker 2 (40:34):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (40:34):
Anyway, good, hey, listen, thanks, this was this was great.
Thanks for having.
Speaker 2 (40:39):
Us, man.
Speaker 3 (40:40):
I really appreciate y'all taking y'all time for this man
and again buyer Fury podcast. Uh with these two brilliant
gentlemen weekly drops. Right yep, yeah, y'all listen to that
man and thank you again.
Speaker 1 (40:54):
Great, thank you, bye bye.
Speaker 3 (41:09):
All right, now don't you hit stop on this pod.
You better listen to these credits. I need you to
finish this thing so I can get the download numbers.
Speaker 2 (41:16):
Okay, so don't stop it yet, but listen.
Speaker 3 (41:20):
This was recorded in East Lost Boyle Heights by your
boy Propaganda. Tap in with me at prop hip hop
dot com. If you're in the coldbrew coffee we got
terraform Coldbrew.
Speaker 2 (41:32):
You can go there dot com.
Speaker 3 (41:34):
And use promo code hood get twenty percent off get
yourself some coffee. This was mixed, edited, and mastered by
your boy Matt Alsowski Killing the Beast Softly. Check out
his website Matdowsowski dot com. I'm a spell it for
you because I know M A T T O S
O W s ki dot com Matdowsowski dot com. He
(41:58):
got more music and stuff like that on it, So
gonna check out The heat. Politics is a member of
cool Zone Media, executive produced by Sophie Lichterman, part of
the iHeartMedia podcast network. Your theme music and scoring is
also by the one and nobly mattow Sowski. Still killing
the beat softly, So listen. Don't let nobody lie to you.
(42:19):
If you understand urban living, you understand politics. These people
is not smarter than you. We'll see y'all next week.
Media.
Speaker 2 (00:05):
All right, man, listen, this is big.
Speaker 3 (00:09):
Most of the people we've invited onto this show are
people like I know or are in our network. I
ain't never except for the Garrison Hayes joint ever cold
called anybody shout out ian you know what I'm saying.
The one of the executive producers that cools on, I
was like, Yo, we should get the Fire and Fury
(00:29):
fools And I was like, the Fire and Fury Fools
d Michael Wolf homie that wrote the book, Like so
like actual journalist guys.
Speaker 2 (00:41):
So that's this show is.
Speaker 3 (00:44):
I interview the host of the Fire and Fury podcast,
some brilliant, brilliant dudes.
Speaker 4 (00:51):
Man.
Speaker 3 (00:52):
And I'm really excited about doing this because it's almost
like politics is like this is like when Easy when
to the White House, you feel me, Like, you know,
we had Jerry Crow juice dripping all over the White
House lawn.
Speaker 2 (01:05):
You feel me.
Speaker 3 (01:06):
Kendrick my second Lpie had real niggas on potus line,
you know.
Speaker 2 (01:10):
So like.
Speaker 3 (01:12):
This us putting our big boy pants on and really
seeing if like I mean, I'm pretty positive, but like
really testing out some of our theories on just the
premise of the show that like, man, you grew up
in the city, you understand politics. So here's my interview
with Michael Wolfe and James Truman of the Fire and
(01:36):
Fury podcast. We're gonna be like, y'oll how fire is
the fire psych But first.
Speaker 2 (01:41):
It's like this bull look is like this bull look
is like this Okay.
Speaker 3 (01:53):
So in a burst of bravery, just the moral fortitude
and conviction all that America could muster. After watching Israel
continue to deny food and services to the people of Palestine,
(02:17):
America finally grew a backbone and wrote a letter wrote
a letter to Israel, gave them a good stern talking
to that if they continue to block AID, then we're
(02:42):
gonna stop giving them them sweet sweet sweet life enders
that they so enjoy. I'm telling you, I told you,
if you keep doing this, we're gonna stop selling you
those those world enders you like so much. Like those
world enders, We're gonna stop selling to you. You don't
(03:06):
let the food go in there to the people you
actively killing. We're gonna, we're gonna, we're gonna stop. BB said,
I wish you would. You ain't gonna do shit?
Speaker 2 (03:24):
Is what pitchment that y'all said, You ain't gonna do shyet.
So there's that.
Speaker 3 (03:33):
Speaking of Israel, they killed the leader of from us
on accident. And now this man, his name has become
a verb sinoir when you like you threw a sinoar
stick at it. Basically, I'm giving everything I have for
the cause to do my absolute best. That's what his
name has become now that they accidentally killed him. And
(03:54):
when I say accidentally killed him, I mean accidentally. They've
been looking for this man. He been in the tunnels,
but being in the tunnels really sucks. So he just
happened to go up for some mayor for a while
and some rookies, dudes that have been in the military
for nine months, just happened to catch a glance of
a uniform and was like, Hey, is that.
Speaker 2 (04:16):
One of them? Is that a mod sneak over there?
Hey is that one of the Hey those.
Speaker 3 (04:21):
Guys over there, We'll send the drone in the look.
I sent the drone in the look and they was like, yes,
there's some ops in there. So they shot it up,
just thinking it's just a couple of ops. Turns out
they killed the leader. Boy, I tell you, After igniting
(04:49):
a famine, a continuous work after setting an area back
decades all accident, they killed the man, to which the
(05:10):
rest of the world is like, okay, so are we
good now? Can you can we go get back to
getting the hostages? Like are we good? You done kill
the leader of hesbe Blood? You done kill the leader
of Amasu? And of course both a hes Blood and
Hamas are like cribs don't die, We just multiply.
Speaker 2 (05:27):
But can we okay? Can we?
Speaker 3 (05:31):
Can we cease the firing now? Is like you captured
the you sank the battleship, you captured the checkmate, Like
can we what are we still doing?
Speaker 2 (05:46):
Benjamin?
Speaker 1 (05:47):
None?
Speaker 2 (05:47):
Y'all who over there looking like Kobe Bryant, job's not doing?
Job's not doing? And like what job?
Speaker 3 (05:52):
So the job is exactly what we thought your job was,
which is wiped them out. That's your job, because you
I feel like this should be mission accomplished. Gone get
your hostages, just like this seems like you got a bargainship.
Speaker 2 (06:07):
But now you know, Benjamin want them to promise, promise
you'll never become mummas again. Like I don't know why.
Speaker 3 (06:15):
You think that's possible anyway. In the home Front, a
couple of things. Turns out the legalization of marijuana, it
clearly ain't had nothing to do with marijuana. It had
to do with Monday. And these new super addictive hybrids
(06:36):
are like causing psychosis apparently, And in a big old
dub people like, oh it turns out its addictive. Of course,
like what substance, because addiction is us, like it's us,
it's not them. Anyway, it turns out marijuana could be addicted.
Some people just shouldn't smoke weed. That's a big old
(06:57):
duh anyway. And lastly, and are just such wonderful, beautiful, amazing, respectful,
high browed discussions about our next president. As Auntie Kamala
continues to try to convince everybody she is safe Negro,
(07:18):
she looking to black men being like, but I got
y'all's back, I'm your Auntie.
Speaker 2 (07:22):
I love y'all vote for me.
Speaker 3 (07:27):
And while I can hold two things at the same
time to meet personally, I feel like Donald Trump is
just a non starter. I can still say that Auntie
might fumbled his bag if she don't figure out this
Gaza thing.
Speaker 2 (07:45):
She's like, you just it's it's just a layup.
Speaker 3 (07:54):
And I wonder if she feels the same way Jade
Evans feels about admitting that Donald Trump is crazy, where
she's like like, come on, y'all know I can't say this,
but but we don't know, Like, well, that means that
I can't trust you. So she's trying to thread a
(08:20):
needle that it to me just seems like this is
an unnecessary thread. You could just I'm telling you, like
the at the very least, you could have let you
could have let a Palestinian speak at the DNC, because
they didn't.
Speaker 2 (08:36):
They gave you the whole what has bewitched you anyway?
Speaker 3 (08:44):
Because everybody know you're not gonna not support is Like
we know you go support Israel, but anyway, on the whole,
Trumpet it all that man said I'm gonna prosecute my enemies,
and turns out he absolutely meant it. My man, My
(09:05):
man said, he putting Liz Cheney on trial, He putting
the Biden family, y'all try, He putting Kamalade Harris on trial.
He putting the New York Times on trial. He like, oh,
y'all need to go to diddy. Anybody don't with me,
y'all going to jail? Like the demand y'all act like
it's hyperbole, and I just need you to think back
(09:27):
to the amount of times that this man told you
exactly what he planned to do, and y'all said it
was hyperbole. I mean, I like in some senses, I mean,
game recognized Gabe the man, the man.
Speaker 2 (09:41):
The man said what he said, and.
Speaker 3 (09:49):
He doing it at Our media continues to not learn
its lesson because it keeps saying in Trump's going more
and more off the rails, talking about he gonna bring
in the military and use the military.
Speaker 2 (10:05):
Against the America, against the enemies within.
Speaker 3 (10:07):
I know he said that, and he said it because
he meant it, like I just are y'all.
Speaker 2 (10:14):
Y'are not paying attention, are you?
Speaker 3 (10:18):
Anyway? We got a few more days. I'm so excited
about our elections like this.
Speaker 2 (10:50):
All right, all right, all right, ladies and gentlemen.
Speaker 3 (10:53):
We got two giants, two very brilliant, brilliant, brilliant, brilliant
men on our show. Here. We got Michael Wolf and
James Truman. What's up, fellas a man, I'm wonderful, man.
I really appreciate y'all doing this. I'm just gonna jump
(11:13):
into it because y'all's time is very valuable.
Speaker 2 (11:15):
You guys like our actual jump away jump away you.
Speaker 3 (11:19):
Know, so, first of all, again, thank you. We've already
done intros. My people know who you are. But generally,
like the premise of this show is like growing up
in urban areas, you know, and you know what I
mean when I say urban areas.
Speaker 2 (11:31):
Let's be be very transparent what urban means.
Speaker 3 (11:35):
But the premise of the show is that navigating the
different sort of auspices and spaces that you had to
growing up in just America, urban areas, specifically in the nineties,
I have found that we're much more equipped to understand
politics than we're given credit for. You know that there's
there's there's a lot of like transferable skills and tools
(11:58):
and just discerning whether it's political strategy, activating a base,
avoiding sort of like political landmines and stuff like that
you understand more than you do by just having to
navigate inner city living. And I'm excited about this because
I feel like oftentimes, I know, I've listened to y'all's pod,
I read Fire and Theory and just kind of like
(12:18):
as a in some ways, like a proof text to
be like, okay, was I am? I tripping like is
this what I think it is? You know, and then
hearing you guys talk and go oh no, yeah, no
this No, that's that's what we thought. So so this
is really exciting for me for somebody who like actually
was there, you know, because you know, at the end
(12:39):
of the day, we weren't there.
Speaker 2 (12:40):
Y'all were there.
Speaker 3 (12:41):
So I say all that to say this, like jumping
in specifically about about Donald Trump himself, I feel like
and a lot of the people that came up with
me and and for better or for worse, are like,
we all know this guy. We've I met this guy,
We've you know, whatever archetype of this guy is, We've
(13:05):
been seeing him our whole life, you know. And as
a father, I personally feel like, okay, you have all
the attributes I teach my children not to have, you know, right, Like,
this is the complete opposite of what I want my
kids to be. But my first question is is it
as bad as we think it is?
Speaker 1 (13:28):
Well, I would probably say yes and no, okay, yes,
because it's it's it's it's Donald Trump, and he is like, no, Actually,
it's curious to hear you say you know who this
person is because I actually don't know who this person is.
I have never ever in in my relatively wide experience,
(13:55):
come upon someone certainly as as success esful as he
is and as absolutely off the rails as as he is.
So that's completely confounding.
Speaker 2 (14:11):
But sure.
Speaker 1 (14:12):
But the the the the other. The other point about
whether how bad it is is it's a new kind
of situation in which Donald Trump makes a lot of
promises and he makes a lot of threats, and it's a,
to say the least, a scary world that he outlines.
(14:33):
At the same time, he's not very interested in any
of this. He's not very interested in accomplishing anything. What
he's interested in is is himself and being famous and
getting attention. He's certainly not interested in policies and legislation
and and any of the kinds of things that we
(14:54):
would say, well, well, that's that's what government does, and
that's why it's that's why it's good, or that's why
it's bad.
Speaker 2 (15:03):
Yeah, No, that's that's beautiful.
Speaker 3 (15:05):
And I appreciate you making that distinction, because you're right, like,
there's I don't know if anybody who's able to just
make physics not work, like just the rules of the
rules of the universe just don't apply to him. But
just in the sense and like you said, like someone
who's like I can listen to you talk and just
be like, you sound like the most incompetent person I've
ever met.
Speaker 2 (15:26):
But why does this work? You know?
Speaker 3 (15:28):
But I think what it is familiar is just this bully,
this just completely detached, the complete detachment from what you're
actually saying, but just really just liking power and is like,
and I will do whatever it takes to maintain that.
And I don't owe any of you guys anything. I
don't have any long term friends because I've burnt them,
you know, and like and those are things that again,
(15:51):
like you know, for me, like, that's a red flag
if I meet it. If I meet a person who
you know, any you know what I mean friends all
your friends are new, then I'm like, how that's there's
something wrong if you don't have any long term friendships,
you know, I'm like, and I'm looking at you, and
I'm going, well, yours are all in jail.
Speaker 1 (16:09):
So what's what's your view on why this this works?
Speaker 3 (16:16):
I mean, there's I have I have, that's a good question,
I have.
Speaker 2 (16:20):
I have two thoughts on it.
Speaker 3 (16:22):
One of it, I feel like is just good old
fashioned racism, just the fact that like America has just
never dealt with its original sin, and and a desire
to see.
Speaker 2 (16:36):
Things go back to a way where.
Speaker 3 (16:40):
Ultimately a stratification of our society that places a particular
people group on top and everyone's subordinate to that.
Speaker 2 (16:48):
And I think he speaks to that. At the end
of the day, there is that.
Speaker 3 (16:51):
On the other hand, I do think there's a part
that's what I meant by for better or for worse.
I do think there's a part that's familiar to who
I would say, anyone who's come from a type of
struggle to.
Speaker 2 (17:08):
Have sort of a like.
Speaker 3 (17:11):
Without using like a profanity, but just like an f
the world attitude, like you know, I'm gonna get mine,
you know, and if it means taking it from you,
it don't matter. I'm going to get mine and you
can either come with me or not. And I and
and just the guy that walks in the room, that's
that's scarface godfather that like, you know, And there's a
(17:33):
type of bravado that I think resonates to inside of
a person who has never felt like they've had the
courage to become that, or just the moral fortitude to
understand that, like I have too much morality, you know,
to actually step into a world that would allow myself
to say the quiet things out loud. So in my mind,
(17:56):
I feel like it's those two things, like you get
to be you get to live out of bullief fantasy,
a gangster fantasy that the rest of us know better,
you know, And and to me, I would step to
the other side of that and say, that's what I
mean by like, well, I know that guy, he's he's
doing ten to twenty five, you know, like you know,
(18:16):
so like he's doing ten to twenty five and his
best friend is on his second child, that with your wife,
you know, while you're in jail, you know.
Speaker 2 (18:25):
What I'm saying.
Speaker 3 (18:25):
So I'm like, I know this guy, you know, and
none of your friends trust you, nobody likes you. You really,
you really don't have power. Everybody just can't wait for
you to leave and take your spot. So I'm like,
I know your future. That's what I mean by I'm
familiar with you. But to your point to take that
and become a president is absolutely mind boggling to me.
Speaker 4 (18:49):
Yeah, yeah, do you think you just explained to us
the thing that no one seems to understand right now,
which is why Kamala is losing black and Hispanic males
to Trump.
Speaker 3 (19:01):
I think, man, that's man, I like how this is
switching the game here.
Speaker 2 (19:04):
I think I think that there's a part of that.
Speaker 3 (19:08):
I think that, like, the thing that I'm explaining is
not specifically a Black and Hispanic thing. I think it
has more to do with the It's more socioeconomic than
than ethnic. You know what I'm saying, because because I
think Black and Hispanic people traditionally are very much more
center right than anything because of our faith and our
(19:29):
church backgrounds. But we're also very very transactional when it
comes to politics. It's like, look, man, who's who's gonna
give me what I need?
Speaker 2 (19:38):
You know?
Speaker 3 (19:39):
And And at the end of the day, there's also within,
like to be truthful, within the Black and Hispanic community,
a lot of misogyny. There's a lot of patriarchy that
still sits into our world and is really hard to
reckon with, you know what I mean, and really, and
I think shows up in ways that like, you know,
(20:00):
we're okay with like you know, Grandma being.
Speaker 2 (20:02):
The matriarch of our family.
Speaker 3 (20:04):
But at the same time Grandma looking at you and
saying you need to be a man at a house,
you know.
Speaker 2 (20:08):
And and I.
Speaker 3 (20:09):
Think that those those two things, like I think kind
of a kind of play a role, you know. But
I think it's it's much less like she doesn't have
the bravado, and it's more like, what are you going
to do for us?
Speaker 2 (20:26):
You know?
Speaker 3 (20:26):
And even if like you said, like Trump will make
a promise, and it's like, if you sit back for
a second, you could say, well, the same argument he's
using for her, which is, well you had a chance,
you know, And like, right right, I do have a
question for y'all though, around the same thing around like
this this vice president debate, which now is it feels
(20:48):
like it might as well been during the Great Depression,
you know, as long you know, But just this, I
listened to y'all's pod about it and decided I didn't
need to make one about it because I was like,
you guys kind of already said it, you know, But
just this like my dad can beat up your dad
type debate, which doesn't like doesn't really do anything. It
doesn't mean your dad could beat me up. It just
(21:10):
or beat up your dad. It just means you made
a beg and a better argument, you know. And and
I think that, like I kind of feel like, I mean,
what does the vice president do anyway? He just kind
of caught him out at you know, Christmases and holidays
to you know, kind of show.
Speaker 2 (21:28):
Show your face. So so I'm curious about this.
Speaker 3 (21:31):
What do you think the traction of this this these
attack lines around Kamala having the power to make change
now and not in acting the change that that she
says she can make. While at the same time I'm
watching this going, well, she's the vice president, Like that's she.
Speaker 2 (21:52):
You know what I mean, Like it's how you gonna
blame her, you know what I mean.
Speaker 3 (21:55):
Uh So, so I just wonder if, like if her
record as as the vice matters, you know.
Speaker 1 (22:03):
More than you know, I mean, cious curiously, this is
this vice presidential debate is one of the rare times
when it actually redounded to the benefit of the top
of the ticket. So, you know, I mean, again, not
good news for for Harris and the Democrats. And I'm
(22:28):
not exactly sure why. I mean, Dvance was better than Walls,
but you know, not not that much better. This was
certainly not a not a Trump Biden situation. So why
this should be, why this should matter more than most
vice presidential debates, I'm not certain, you know, I might
(22:53):
conjecture that both on the part of Harris and the
part of Walls, there are questions that voters feel they
are not answering, that they are avoiding, that they are
trying not to show themselves. When she declared yesterday the
day before that, you know, when challenged on her scriptedness,
(23:15):
and she said, that's what that's called is discipline. You know,
I think that that is the problem. I mean, I
think she thinks it's discipline, and I think and I
think many voters feel that it's it's a lack of transparency,
it's it's her hiding, it's it's fakery.
Speaker 2 (23:40):
Man.
Speaker 3 (23:40):
That almost feels like a sort of a byproduct of
the lurching that Trump did, you know what I mean
to be like, like, I think to your point, there
was a time that we thought discipline was good.
Speaker 1 (23:53):
You know, No, no, no, I think I think.
Speaker 2 (23:56):
You should say everything that pops in your head, you know.
Speaker 1 (23:58):
Yeah, no, yeahs, you know, but I think it's part
of the whole ways that Trump has upended everything about
politics and about political disc discourse, about political performance, about
the nature of campaigning itself. I mean, this is now performance,
(24:19):
and the performance is can I hold your attention? And
can I hold your attention with doing whatever? It really
doesn't matter what I do, just as long as I'm
holding your attention, which he does.
Speaker 3 (25:04):
To your point about being able to like answer a
question better, like, I found that very interesting about Jade
Vance in the sense of, you know, to use the
to use the example of like my dad can beat
up your dad. Well, you said it better, But that
doesn't actually mean that your dad could beat up my dad.
It just means you were better at making the argument. No.
Speaker 1 (25:23):
Well, and that's why we've we've we've entered this whole
thing that that actually the issue of competence is not
an issue. What it is is the issue of communication
and connection and emotional appeal.
Speaker 3 (25:39):
Yeah, which which really leads me to this, to this
this the j six you know Fumble even in his
interview with Lulu Garcia uh Navarro on ah on the
New York Times, in my opinion, it's a gotcha question.
There's no way he can answer this question truly. Of
did Trump lose the twenty two the election. You know,
(26:01):
it's in the sense that, I mean, come on, guys
like you, like you, he can't answer.
Speaker 1 (26:07):
This question, you know, no, but it's very it's very
clear what's going going on there. It's a kind of
triage at this at this point, he can't he can't
say that because then he would fall out with Trump.
So therefore, therefore that's a non starter. He cannot he
cannot tell the truth. Yeah, therefore he he you know,
(26:32):
he has no alternative but to but to try to
fudge the question. Yeah, And I mean, he he's he's certain,
he certainly knows that I'm gonna look foolish, but better
I look foolish then I then I fall out with
Donald Trump. Man.
Speaker 3 (26:50):
I I saw that, and I flashed back to being
thirteen year old, and you know, I just saw I
just saw this bully steal my friend's bike. And then
and then somebody walks up and goes, hey, whose bike
is that?
Speaker 2 (27:08):
And I'm looking at both of them, knowing.
Speaker 3 (27:10):
Full well that you just I'm just that le's while
I'm like, you can't be honest, like we both know
you just stole this bike.
Speaker 1 (27:19):
Exactly. There there is no there is no possibility. And
I think everybody, I mean, that's the other thing about
the about the world of Donald Trump. Everybody understands something
that is every It's transparent, every everybody understands this so
so so vance isn't penalized for not not dealing with,
(27:40):
not confronting this, not telling the truth about this because
everybody knows he knows the truth. He just can't say
the truth.
Speaker 2 (27:47):
He just can't. That is fascinating to me.
Speaker 3 (27:49):
That's what I mean by like just gravity doesn't work anymore,
you know, because like we all are we just like
we all know that this is what's happening, Which leads
me to my next question, which to me is is
I land here as like one of To me, the
biggest question is like, so, why in the world would anyone.
Speaker 2 (28:13):
Want to work there?
Speaker 3 (28:15):
And I'm curious as to like I think you guys
mentioned once that like people will still like line up
to work in his cabinet, you know, but like you
just have to turn your body into a pretzel to
be able to do it, you know. And I'm just
I just again again going back to how we were raised.
It's like, oh yeah, no, stay away from him, like,
you can't this this is a lose lose situation, you know.
(28:38):
So I just wonder, like, what do you think would
be the motivation for a person to be willing to
Like do you do they just think they're different, like
that there's somehow immute immune or like are you going
to be the adults in the room? Like why would
anyone still willingly step into this environment?
Speaker 1 (28:54):
Yeah? You know, I mean all of that is is true,
and and the exceptions that you outlined are true because
everybody does think they are different, because everybody does think
that they can they can do what no one before
them has managed to do. But then there's also just
(29:15):
the just the the risk reward thing. You know, I'm
going to go in I'm going to get a job
in the in the in the in the White House. Yes,
I might be indicted, Yes you know I'm going to
be humiliated. Yes, no one is. You know, I'm not
going to be listened to. But at the end of
(29:39):
the day, there is also a very good chance that
I will come out ahead of where I am now. Now, yeah, now,
the problem with that is that there's also a very
good chance that you will be you will come out
significantly lesser than where you are now. But for some reason,
the human mind doesn't necessarily process things that way. I'll
(30:01):
take a chance. It's the old I'll take a chance.
And it is the White House.
Speaker 3 (30:05):
Yeah, I wonder if there's like a piece of some
of it's just the adrenaline, you know.
Speaker 1 (30:14):
And then that is true, it is it is the
White House. It is like, yeah, this is gonna be exciting.
I'll go along. I'll go along for the ride.
Speaker 2 (30:24):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (30:24):
And to your point, is also true that if you
befriend a bully in the belief that you're not gonna
get bulleted by the bully, but in fact, you always
end up getting bulleted by the bully because that's what
the bully does.
Speaker 2 (30:36):
That's what he does. Yeah.
Speaker 3 (30:38):
Yeah, that's that's a good point too. Yeah, that you're
just like man maybe like, yeah, at least I'd rather
be the hunter instead of the hunter. You know, I
can totally understand that.
Speaker 1 (30:48):
And remember, remember the thing is and and and this
is all part of the of the of the Trump thing.
You know, it is always better to be more famous
than you are. Yeah, and yes, and you know, and
you go into the White House, and even if you're
spit out by it. You're more famous on the other
(31:08):
side than you are on going in.
Speaker 4 (31:10):
Yeah, very true.
Speaker 2 (31:12):
Yeah, yeah, sure that's good.
Speaker 4 (31:14):
Short jail term is the price you pay for that?
Speaker 2 (31:16):
Yes, you know, you know what.
Speaker 3 (31:18):
It's a cost of business, business, the cost of business, right,
you know.
Speaker 1 (31:22):
Steve, Steve Steve Bannon gets out of jail. I believe.
I believe next maybe maybe in two weeks. And I'm
sure if you gave him the if you gave him
the choice. No, Donald Trump, none of this, none of this.
You can go back to twenty and sixteen and not
(31:43):
do it and not go to jail. He would say, no, no,
I'll go to jail.
Speaker 2 (31:48):
Absolutely not.
Speaker 1 (31:48):
I mean, all of the humiliations that Trump has met
it out to him, it doesn't make any difference. He'll
he'll take.
Speaker 3 (31:55):
It's merely a line item on your on your P
and L.
Speaker 2 (32:01):
Right. Yeah.
Speaker 3 (32:03):
So, I think my last few questions or two questions
really are like more zooming out, kind of like a
meta questions, one about your the field that you're in,
and then also about just presidencies as a whole. Like
I part of me feels like there has to be
(32:24):
some sort of hubris or I don't know, lack of
a better term, just malady to think that or even
to desire to be a president. You know, I'm gonna
look at thirty three hundred million people and go, I
could be in charge, Like I could, I could do this.
Speaker 2 (32:42):
You know. I.
Speaker 3 (32:43):
And I wonder if in y'all's experience, if it's I'm
not not not looking for no like kind of race
science or like you know, gene in there that says.
Speaker 2 (32:54):
I can be the guy or I can be the gal.
Speaker 3 (32:57):
But have you noticed is they're a personality thing inside
a world leader? Like have you noticed that they have
a thing that like because I feel like that thing
is like something wrong with you like that, like you know,
like no part of me would feel equipped for this job,
(33:19):
you know, or even want it, you know.
Speaker 2 (33:22):
So I just wonder, like, do you see a.
Speaker 3 (33:26):
Through line between people who would desire this type of position?
Speaker 1 (33:31):
Yeah, I mean I think you can fairly say anybody
who wants this job, there's something wrong with them, you know.
I mean I think that they have emotional problems. I
don't think that that's a that's far off the mark.
But the other thing is not only the assumption of
this kind of of this kind of power and that
kind of hubris. It's people who are willing to do
(33:54):
what you have to do to become the president.
Speaker 2 (33:58):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (33:59):
I mean it's years of utter unpleasantness, certainly, and I
think basically degradation, you know. I mean it's just not
in not a human enterprise, and so to do that.
I mean, by the time, if if you weren't already
(34:19):
warped as a person who wanted that job, you are
certainly going to be warped by the time you you
you get it. I mean, it's it's ludicrous. You have
to run for this for I mean, this is this
is more than a two year enterprise. You know, you
have to beg people for money. You have to eat
the shittiest food.
Speaker 2 (34:40):
Known to man at room temperature.
Speaker 1 (34:43):
You know. I mean even even even Donald Trump is
full of rage wrath at when you know, when when
he has to has to sleep in these hotels that
that they put you in. You know, what a what
a crummy life?
Speaker 2 (35:00):
Yeah, man, you gotta really want it. Yeah.
Speaker 3 (35:04):
Wow, it seems as though this uh election it being
I mean, if you believe the polls as close as
it is, it feels like it's it's either of theirs
to lose, you know, not, rather than it's there to win.
It feels like, you know, your two, your two missteps
(35:24):
away from from losing this. What would you say for
either of them would be the thing that would push
them off the ledge to to losing this?
Speaker 1 (35:37):
This thing for Kamon Law, I mean's Donald It's it's
a it's a good question. I'm not sure, you know,
I think it is his to lose and hers to win. Okay,
and and and I think that he can lose by
being Donald Trump. Now, now that's confusing because that's also
(35:57):
would be the reason that he will win. I think
she has to do in some sense, it's going to
be harder for her to win if she stays as
Kamala Harris. She has to break she has to break
character at this at this point. And you know, I mean,
I don't I'm not sure that she can do that.
(36:17):
But on the other hand, she may then just just
just have to count on him being him and you know,
shooting himself in both feet, which he is perfectly capable
of doing, absolutely a matter of fact, kind of likely
that he will do.
Speaker 3 (36:33):
Yeah, Yeah, there's a certain which I would love to
like fill in those holes too. You know, there's a
certain sort of double consciousness that like ev D Voice
and James Baldwin talks about, like that, eyes feel in
some ways a little more empathy towards Kamala in the
sense that like, at the end of the day, you're
(36:54):
still just You're still a black woman, and you're a
black woman in power, and they're just in our country.
There is a level of guarding that one has to have,
has to know to coach, which has to know how
to do this. And granted I've never gone through the
degregation it takes to run for office, but I think
in my own way, and I think any person of
(37:16):
color in their own way knows.
Speaker 2 (37:18):
That like.
Speaker 3 (37:20):
Idea that like I can't show you too much of me,
you know, just because of just the history of racism.
Now that's not an excuse for her, because like I said,
she running for president, Like you know what I'm saying,
Like I'm not running for president, you know what I mean, So,
like I can stay that guarded. But I think in
her ability to ascend the hill in the way that
she has without her having to say that, I feel
(37:43):
like that that's something that like I can see that.
I'm like, oh, yeah, Na, you can't. You can't really
talk the way you talk, you know, you can't really
say what you really thinking, you know, And I don't
know if that's like I can only again speak for
the black American experience. I can't say that this is
not true for anyone else. I'm just saying this is
true for us.
Speaker 2 (38:01):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (38:01):
No, no, And she may have you know, I mean,
she has clearly made this very fine calculation and at
the end of the day, maybe she's right.
Speaker 3 (38:10):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, Okay, cool man, Thank you so much
for your time. My last question has to do about
just the concept of investigative journalism and sort of the
work that you dudes do, which I almost heard the
sigh through through through the mic right now about this
(38:31):
of just like obviously you know it had don't exactly
dovetail well in this age of like instant news and
even me as somebody who like you know, I'm smack
dab in the millennial world where I even find it
difficult to find clips of my own pod because I'm like, well,
(38:52):
I'm building a case here, you know what I'm saying,
Like I'm that swing generation with the analog sort of
childhood and then you know, a digital like teen years.
You know what I'm saying, So, like, I still want to, like,
I need you to build a case. Tell me why
I still know how to like fact checked and like
site sources you know what I'm saying, and look at
(39:12):
like dissenting voices, like so, I even still find it
very difficult for even me to say in a thirty
second clip.
Speaker 2 (39:22):
This is the point.
Speaker 3 (39:23):
I'm like, well, I can't because the clip needs context,
and then the context needs context, and then that context
needs a historical context. So I just wonder, man, like,
how you guys dealing with it? Man, how are you
guys dealing with just an adapting adjusting? Because it's it's
(39:44):
obviously still necessary. Long form is still absolutely necessary. But
what do you guys think the future of sort of
investigative journalism is?
Speaker 1 (39:52):
Well, I don't know. I'm not I mean, I don't
even think of myself as a journalist. I'm a writer
and I'm just trying to trying to portray what I
see and yeah, uh and and James went off to
start restaurants and I'm the person who pulled him back
into this, so uh, and I think maybe, well, you know.
(40:14):
I mean, restaurants and journalism are kind of similar businesses
like terrible, like it's terrible.
Speaker 2 (40:20):
Awful, just money sucks. Yeah, got it.
Speaker 3 (40:24):
I started a coffee company, so yeah you go. You
could see the box of the case tray, the six
pack sitting right by me, just like with no coffee
in him.
Speaker 2 (40:34):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (40:34):
Anyway, good, hey, listen, thanks, this was this was great.
Thanks for having.
Speaker 2 (40:39):
Us, man.
Speaker 3 (40:40):
I really appreciate y'all taking y'all time for this man
and again buyer Fury podcast. Uh with these two brilliant
gentlemen weekly drops. Right yep, yeah, y'all listen to that
man and thank you again.
Speaker 1 (40:54):
Great, thank you, bye bye.
Speaker 3 (41:09):
All right, now don't you hit stop on this pod.
You better listen to these credits. I need you to
finish this thing so I can get the download numbers.
Speaker 2 (41:16):
Okay, so don't stop it yet, but listen.
Speaker 3 (41:20):
This was recorded in East Lost Boyle Heights by your
boy Propaganda. Tap in with me at prop hip hop
dot com. If you're in the coldbrew coffee we got
terraform Coldbrew.
Speaker 2 (41:32):
You can go there dot com.
Speaker 3 (41:34):
And use promo code hood get twenty percent off get
yourself some coffee. This was mixed, edited, and mastered by
your boy Matt Alsowski Killing the Beast Softly. Check out
his website Matdowsowski dot com. I'm a spell it for
you because I know M A T T O S
O W s ki dot com Matdowsowski dot com. He
(41:58):
got more music and stuff like that on it, So
gonna check out The heat. Politics is a member of
cool Zone Media, executive produced by Sophie Lichterman, part of
the iHeartMedia podcast network. Your theme music and scoring is
also by the one and nobly mattow Sowski. Still killing
the beat softly, So listen. Don't let nobody lie to you.
(42:19):
If you understand urban living, you understand politics. These people
is not smarter than you. We'll see y'all next week.
Host
Prop
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