October 8, 2025 • 44 mins
Our friend Sarah Marshall has a great podcast coming out about the Satanic Panic of the 80's. It's pretty wild how much it actually teaches us about our current moment.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:02):
Calls media.
Speaker 2 (00:05):
All right, first things first, The Indling The Beautiful Inling
Live Show October twenty second at the Allegian Theater. Here's
the good news. The good news is Matt and I
have made it into the first round of the Grammys
for this album. So give you a little inside ball here.
The goal is to bring out and invite people that
(00:28):
are You have to be a voting member of the
Recording Academy to like actually vote, right, So the goal
is to put the record in front of people who
could vote, and part of how to impress them is
to fill this room with actual guests and fans. So
you're doing me a huge favor by purchasing a ticket
(00:49):
and showing up, because it might lead to an actual Grammy.
Last time I was nominated was for the Terraform book,
only it was an audiobook and I was up against
Barack Obama, so I didn't even try. I was like this,
there's not even worth trying. But this I might have
(01:09):
a shot. Toby twenty second, Allegiant Theater. You can get
tickets at the Allegiance dot com or click all the
links in all of my stuff and it'll be in
the show notes. All right, now let's talk about Satan
(01:33):
all right, all right, alright, alright, hood politics, well prop
I got another friend here and this is going to
be a fun experience.
Speaker 3 (01:43):
Sarah Marshall say, what's up?
Speaker 1 (01:47):
What's up? How are you? Oh?
Speaker 3 (01:49):
Man glorious? Oh there's the cat already.
Speaker 4 (01:51):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (01:52):
I warned you, you.
Speaker 2 (01:53):
Did, you did, Sarah broadcasting live from the hellscape that
is Portland. Man and all these I'm very brave. You
are very brave to brave these farmers' markets.
Speaker 4 (02:05):
And listen, people got pushy. We did not know how
to form an orderly line. I have seen adults driven
to tears over Chantelle's. Well not really, but it could
happen like next week.
Speaker 3 (02:19):
That's great. I have no idea who Chantarelle is. But
I've never seen really little mushroom.
Speaker 2 (02:23):
Yes, I have never seen until I lived in Portland
for like six months.
Speaker 3 (02:27):
When we're starting a.
Speaker 1 (02:29):
Oh boy, it sounds like the implant was rejected.
Speaker 2 (02:33):
It basically it was essentially it was like what's crazy?
Is like I my introduction to Portland was through really
was through like the music scene, so like this is
this was a while back, but like two of the
dopest DJs, I ever met some of the like the greats.
Like at the time during like the this was around
the time of like Red Bull was doing.
Speaker 1 (02:52):
These like oh god yeah seven yeah.
Speaker 2 (02:55):
Seven to like twelve. You know, they was doing these
like beat battles and stuff like that. So just this
like producer hip hop scene was like incredible in Portland.
Speaker 3 (03:05):
So I was like, dude, poortly got a vibe.
Speaker 2 (03:07):
And then I moved up there and I was like, oh,
I met everyone, I know them all.
Speaker 3 (03:13):
They were all in one room.
Speaker 1 (03:14):
Yeah, they were.
Speaker 3 (03:16):
Oh that's the whole scene.
Speaker 4 (03:18):
If something happened to that room, there would be no
vibe left. And also I think that was at the
time when Portland when not to overly blame California, but
let's just say anyone who had a little bit too
much money was like, hey, Portland, I'll give you twenty
dollars to kill your vibes completely and build a bunch
of condos. And we were like, heck, yeah, I love
(03:40):
when people want me to do anything, even if it's
going to be mad for me.
Speaker 3 (03:44):
Yeah. Yeah. I quickly learned that when yeah I got there,
I'm staying in Northeast.
Speaker 2 (03:49):
Sorry, No, it was I felt like dang, I might
be the problem, because I was like, I got there,
moved in the northeast, and I was like, oh, it
was cool. I was like barbershop, here is at the
Opium restaurant. I was like, oh, it's great. And then
the lady I was like that did like the walk
through through the apartment. She was like, all black people
have left his city and I was like what.
Speaker 4 (04:11):
And the city did not seem upset about it on
the official level.
Speaker 2 (04:17):
So yeah, but either way, some of the best coffee,
beer and ramen there's that.
Speaker 1 (04:25):
Yeah, It's true.
Speaker 4 (04:26):
What we lack in uh diversity and civil rights, we
definitely make up for in microw bruise. I was making
myself laugh yesterday imagining Trump just like calling into Fox
and Friends sorry to say the tea word, and just
like describing images of Portland Halloween yard displays, because I
took a ward testerday and was enjoying all the Halloween stuff,
(04:48):
imagining him being like, there are ghosts taking over people's lawns, giants, spiders.
Speaker 3 (04:54):
Giant spiders. It's it's really bad.
Speaker 2 (04:56):
It's really going.
Speaker 3 (04:58):
To do it is.
Speaker 1 (04:59):
Yeah, it's very satanic town.
Speaker 2 (05:01):
Yes, that's great, which is why I want to talk
to you. So, so how this intersects with our show
is in a lot of ways, it's like history repeating itself,
like whether it's in politics for black people specifically, but
people of color people, you know what I'm saying, whatever
(05:22):
the case may be, you know, all the way down
to even in our churches, like oftentimes we find that
even though we might be reading from the same book,
our experiences are quite different, you know, one of which
recently is the you know, the Charlie Kirk assassination, like
that the next Sunday after that, I if you could
(05:46):
possibly put mirror images of or side by side images
of what was happening in what we were saying at
urban churches versus what was being said in these white churches.
It was like I had the complete opposite. I'm reminded
of when the beginnings of Black Lives Matter, and and
and when Mike Brown was assassinated, you know, and and
(06:09):
just and then and then eventually when you know, Trump
just like ate the American Church, like you just ate it,
like I don't know, like just like you just ate it.
Speaker 3 (06:19):
Like I don't know how.
Speaker 1 (06:22):
Anything to wash it down with.
Speaker 2 (06:24):
Just gobbledy gobble you know, so it was we found
us in you know, inner cities. I'm using trying to
use color mute terms to not make it just as
simple as just black and white, but just just generally
who weren't you know, affluent evangelical spaces who but again
(06:44):
kind of like whether it's cultural or traditional or even
just like are still pretty and fascinated with the person
of Jesus. They are just like, I don't understand what
what fuck going on? Like what what are y'all talking about?
Speaker 3 (07:00):
You know?
Speaker 2 (07:03):
To me, that dovetails into what you about to study,
which was for anyone that's like closer to our age
was probably this was probably one of the first times
this happened where we was like, what are y'all talking about?
And that's the Satanic Panic?
Speaker 1 (07:19):
Oh boy?
Speaker 4 (07:20):
Yeah, And I started studying the Satanic Panic and I
want to say twenty twelve, which is such a funny
time to look back on, yeah, because it seemed like
we were like, this is as much history as there's
ever been, and it was like, well, yeah, wait a minute,
give it like a day, and you know, and it's
(07:41):
not There's never been a time when people are like, wow,
things are really calm and normal back now, Like things
didn't seem normal then. And I think that a lot
of the technology that's allowing the world we're in and
the sort of lack of communication and informational overwhelm was already.
I think we could see it, we could feel it
being built aroun Us. But I started studying the Satanic
(08:03):
panic because I was a baby teacher. I was twenty
three or twenty four years old. I was teaching college
composition classes to students who, like on average, were older
than me, like just from the main you know, which
is very funny. It's like being it's like only slightly
less funny to me than being like, you know, a
one room school house, frontier teacher students who are taller
(08:27):
than she is. But I remember I was kind of
trying to teach myself how to be a writer. I
was in an MFA too, but I was just like
I had that energy that you have in your early
twenties where you're like, how can I improve myself on
this bus ride? And now I just you know, I
want to cool down my overheated brain. If I get
the chance to sit on public transit. I'm just staring
(08:49):
out at people's yards, like I'm in elementary school again.
But I remember reading an article in Texas Monthly, specifically
about the case of fran and Dan Keller, which was
a major case within the Satanic Panic and a relatively
late one where a couple was running a daycare in
the Austin area and accusations were born and started quickly
(09:10):
developing and spreading around between parents, very similar to the
kind of originating McMartin case and Manhattan Beach, California in
the early eighties, where.
Speaker 2 (09:20):
At some point, some point, I'm gonna easy to go
finish this part what got you interested? But then we're
going to have to back up to be like, okay,
what is it.
Speaker 4 (09:26):
We're going to freeze stream and go back in time
like a magic.
Speaker 2 (09:29):
Yeah, yeah, I know, right book finish you got well.
Speaker 4 (09:32):
And so this case and what I found really interesting
there is a detail that it's always really stuck out
to me that, uh, because we also we really we
didn't know how to question young children, certainly not in
a forensic capacity at this point in time. They were
just beginning to realize that we needed to know how
to do that. And so one of the children described
(09:54):
and this kind of got passed around and augmented and
was very much believed in, given credibility by a lot
of adults, including in a fish roles that the colors
had kidnapped a baby gorilla from a park nearby. They
cut off its finger, they filled a bucket with the
blood from the finger, and they made the children in
the daycare drink the blood. And even if you accept
(10:16):
the idea that they're getting that much blood from a
gorilla finger, I just feel, you know, it's the it's
these little things that anyone, even slightly neurodivergent would fixate on,
which makes me think there are not enough neurodivergent people
in positions of power. But also the fact that there
there wasn't a gorilla at this park. There's a very
(10:37):
specific number of, you know, zoo enclosure gorillas in this country,
and that was a very easily checkable fact that the
adults in the room chose not to bother about because
they had allegations of satanic ritual abuse to focus on,
and they brought a trial and they ultimately want a conviction,
which I was just absolutely scandalized by. And I had
(10:59):
the set which I have since very much lost, that
the America that I knew was not a country that
this was supposed to be able to happen in. And
so that the story has become a fixation for me,
and it's it's, you know, taken me into the future,
into a time where I think it's pretty clear that
we're having the Satanic panic again.
Speaker 2 (11:18):
Yes, that is a better way to put it, because oftentimes,
you know, for the younglings, they might think that like, like,
how how are so many people so gullible? Like right, why?
Speaker 1 (11:35):
Like and didn't we used to be smarter?
Speaker 3 (11:37):
Didn't we used to be smarter? Yes?
Speaker 2 (11:39):
Like you like, just why are y'all falling for? I
know I often feel like we're like where are your antenna's?
Like you just just take five extra minutes to like,
just five extra minutes, just one more Google search, just
one one extra question to like for what you're experiencing
(11:59):
or what someone is saying to you. But like you said,
just five extra minutes or just just five seconds to say,
that's a lot of blood out of a finger.
Speaker 4 (12:07):
Right, And children, some children will fib when they're oppressed
by adults and they feel like they have to come
up with an answer to make the situation end. But
kids also just don't really understand that much about the world,
and if they're asked to invent a scenario, then it
should be easy for an adult to realize that they're
feeling pressured to talk and to let them stop and
(12:30):
to not you know, to not be like, all right,
the gorilla finger, we got it, We're moving forward to
this one.
Speaker 2 (12:36):
Bro. Like, how many times just the lack of imagination
or the just loss of empathy or innocence just to
be able to think back to when you were a
child and grown ups were asking you a question, how
terrified you were to make sure that you answered right.
You know what I'm saying, Like, I'm just trying to
(12:56):
give you the right answer, you know, I mean, like
I don't know what that is is, but I'm guessing,
you know what i mean, Like I'm guessing at.
Speaker 3 (13:03):
The right answer.
Speaker 1 (13:04):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (13:05):
So when you say did they did somebody do something?
Did you touch? It is like, uh, yes someone, yes,
you know what I mean?
Speaker 2 (13:13):
Yeah, And then then when they then when you start
explaining it, like like I'm a father, like there are
times that like my daughter is telling me stories from
school and I'm like, oh, okay, that's that's where the
story went.
Speaker 3 (13:25):
That's yeah, I.
Speaker 1 (13:30):
Went off the rails.
Speaker 4 (13:30):
And also I feel like sometimes little kids who are like,
are you telling me something terrible.
Speaker 1 (13:37):
Or are you telling me something normal?
Speaker 4 (13:39):
Yeah, in your way, Because I remember taking going with
a friend and their toddler to like a like a
state far kind of a thing, you know, where they
have like animals and pens, and we saw all pacas
that were in kind of like you know, the stables basically,
And so when she was describing it later, the toddler,
who I think was three at the time, was like,
and they had to stay cake is all day because
(14:02):
you know, she was seeing animals behind bars. If you're
an apathetic little kid, you're like, oh no, I mean
you've seen cartoons. And so they kind of there was
this you know, this refrain at the time, which I
know will be very familiar from recent events of believe
the children or we believe the children in the case
of the McMartin community. And what I find so interesting
(14:25):
about that and the way it repeats today, is that
you're not saying you believe the child when they say
anything other than the thing that you pressured them into
saying to validate your worldview as an adults.
Speaker 2 (15:03):
Okay, so the back up and see if you could
give me a work in definition of yeah, yeah, Satanic panic.
Speaker 4 (15:11):
So okay, So, and I've got to really dive into
all this in a new mini series I have coming
out from CBC Podcasts. And one of the people who
I got to interview on that show argued that really
there are many Satanic panics and different panics happening simultaneously,
(15:33):
and that the one we know from the eighties is
also history repeating itself because in a way that we
never thought would happen when we had you know, we
were in section advanced time in human history that we
had VCRs and stuff.
Speaker 3 (15:44):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (15:45):
So the Satanic Panic.
Speaker 4 (15:46):
Of the eighties, which has been my fixation for a
while the eighties into the nineties, began in the early eighties,
and there are so many kind of originating points that
you can kind.
Speaker 1 (15:59):
Of trace it back to if you like.
Speaker 4 (16:01):
But two of the moments when I think you can
say it really began or if in kind of wildfire
terms that turned from a small blaze into something that
had the power to leap around North America was a
with the publication in nineteen eighty of a book called
Michelle Remembers, which was a book about a Canadian woman
(16:21):
who went into therapy. Her therapist was like, you have
no reason to not be fine. Why aren't you fine,
And then decided that the reason she wasn't fixed yet,
which was a thing we very much believed women should
be able to do in therapy in the seventies, Yes,
was he got her into some kind of a trance
(16:42):
like state and believed that he was regressing her to
herself as a young child, and she began producing kind
of these initially, these kind of dreamlike images that he
decided had to me, and that she had been given
to a coven of witches by her mother, and they
decided that it was a Satanic cult in fact, and
(17:03):
also that Victoria, British Columbia was one of the two
main headquarters of Satanism in the world, which is incredible
to me because we used to go camping there all
the time when I was a kid, and I never
saw anything to indicate that you'd think that I would
have heard at least occasional chanting. I just find that
so funny. Victoria is really an adorable town. The last
(17:23):
time I was there there was like a parade of
at least one hundred bagpipers piping, you know, because it's
one of your less satanically viby locations. And so they
take this story to a publisher. They also in the
process fall in love. They leave their spouses. It's a
huge scandal, at least in their neighborhoods it is. But
(17:47):
what the story becomes for the public is the story
of this heroic therapist who rescued this woman from memories
of satanic ritual abuse. And it is like the fran
and Dan Keller case in the Bucket of Blood, where
you look at the details or you check it against
just school photos and records of her being in elementary school.
What her siblings, who weren't mentioned in the book talk about.
(18:10):
And I got to interview one of Michelle's sisters for
the show, which was truly one of the most I
don't know one of the great honors of my life
is a historian, honestly, and also the ex wife who
her therapist left behind, and they, I think were able
(18:33):
to turn a story. And also the therapist, Lawrence Pastor.
Was it about Catholic And I think that this couple
was able to turn their story from this illicit affair
that had damaged both of their families and had been
a betrayal of their partners and make it into the
story where actually they were being very heroic because they
had to defeat Satan. He was coming like pretty soon.
(18:54):
The book says that Satan's going to come in nineteen eighty,
and it's published in nineteen eighty the time you're reading it,
you're already late, yea. And then the second thing, which
is directly influenced by Michell remembers in which Americans generally
start hearing about in I believe nineteen eighty three, It's
happening starts brewing eighty two eighty three in southern California
(19:17):
is the McMartin preschool trial, when police and social workers
who have very minimal training again and how to question
children about sexual abuse, because this is a topic that
law enforcement is really just beginning to think about seriously
around this time, and that's kind of come out of
the shadows, in large part due to the Women's movement.
(19:38):
A mother lacks a complaint against a teacher or a
caretaker at the nursery school that her child attends, and
there is this belief held by a lot of newly
trained social workers who are trained partly on Michelle Remembers,
which has been given to them as kind of a textbook,
even though it's a mass market paperback that looks like
(19:59):
flowers in the attic on the idea that there is
way more satanic abuse happening than anyone has ever realized,
and wouldn't wouldn't it be kind of heroic to discover some?
And the thing is, you know, if you're questioning very
young children and you have an agenda, and I think
anyone who has a young child or who has spent
(20:21):
time with, you know, preschool aged children, knows this, you
can kind of get them to say almost whatever you
want if you put enough time into it, and if
you blend reality and play. And so that case ultimately
goes to trial. It's the most costly trial and kind
of series of legal outcomes and appeals and so on
(20:46):
after that until the O. J. Simpson trial.
Speaker 1 (20:48):
But until O. J.
Speaker 4 (20:49):
Simpson, it's the most costly kind of legal event in
California history. But of course, at the time that that
news breaks, huge news, and of course from a media perspective,
it's kind of great bad news to be reporting on,
because like, what's going to make people pay attention faster
than the word satanists, right aside from free money. I
(21:12):
guess that could be good.
Speaker 1 (21:14):
So there you go.
Speaker 3 (21:15):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (21:16):
I remember the phrase in Lauren Hill's song or in
the Fuji song how many mics when she says, go
ask Alice if you don't believe me. I had no
idea what that was until I realized that Alice is
was a book about this young girl's you know her, yeah,
(21:40):
falling into Satanism and all this good stuff and just
like and it was like and the lady that wrote
it even was like, yeah, I'm I made this.
Speaker 3 (21:48):
I made all this it up.
Speaker 1 (21:49):
I'm an old Mormon lady, and I have fun doing this.
Speaker 4 (21:51):
Yes, it's also fun too, because like she really falls
into the dangerous world of pot, and I think kind
of incidentally becomes a Satanist because of that, because pot
is a gateway.
Speaker 1 (22:01):
Direct to Satanism. And I guess Portland does proof of that.
Speaker 3 (22:04):
Yes, exactly. I love it. So the version. So there's this.
Speaker 2 (22:09):
So there's another show that did a deep dive on this,
called The Devil in the Deep Blue Sea, and it's
by this dude named Mike Cosper from this organization called
Christianity Today. Now, theirs is very much more like you know,
the calls coming from inside the house, like they were
more like as people who are practicing believing Christians, like
(22:30):
who looked back at their own past and was just like, yo,
that was we really dropped the ball on this one,
you know, like really looking back on that and being
like looking at other stuff like what was going on,
like like it's easier to put you know, to think
of the enemy and you know, the evil is some
(22:51):
sort of dark cabal rather than the fact that like yeah, no,
the SPC or you know, the Southern Baptist Convention was
like bro, were like we're molesting children, like they're no,
your pastor's doing it. You're saying like, uh, you know,
all sorts of scandals and stuff like that. That was
like inside the house that it was almost like ways
for which they were coping or avoiding, you know, issues
(23:14):
they need to talk about themselves, which I thought was
like super.
Speaker 3 (23:17):
Interesting coming I got to read that, Yeah, it's a
it's a podcast, it's a really good po oh oh wow.
Speaker 4 (23:22):
I didn't know Christianity Today was doing that, Yeah, and
they did. Actually, Christianity Today did a couple of really
amazing expose as and kind of put journalistic work into
exposing a couple of kind of early Satanic panic.
Speaker 1 (23:35):
Yeah, I guess.
Speaker 3 (23:38):
Yeah, and uh.
Speaker 4 (23:40):
The author of Satan Underground, which is uh, those are
amazing pieces.
Speaker 3 (23:46):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (23:46):
But I say that to say one a setup for like,
uh to be very like I mean, just to say
the way like we saw like this the effects of
the Satanic Panic, how it got into like the inner
city was not so much.
Speaker 3 (24:02):
Like like our churches.
Speaker 2 (24:03):
We were like, it's like the the entry level like
stuff of just like look, dude, you know, like any
church is like stay away from you know, spells and
witchcraft and you know what I'm saying, and like stuff
like that, like Halloween's dangerous, you know. And then you know,
the worst it got for us was like they started
ruining our cartoons because like, you can't watch this because
(24:27):
it's got the spirit of witchcraft in it.
Speaker 3 (24:29):
You know.
Speaker 2 (24:30):
Luckily I had a mom that was a little more
like it's fine, son, Like, so my mom definitely didn't
like fall into a lot of we still got to
dress for Halloween and all this good stuff. But like
at the end of the day, I say, I have
to say, like for us, like Satan worship was like Sarah,
that's white shit, Like yeah.
Speaker 3 (24:50):
We was like.
Speaker 2 (24:52):
So so for our That's what I mean by like
for our churches, Like that's not really, that's not really
something we worried about, you know what I'm saying, Like,
we're not worried about these little hood kids doing, you know,
sacrificing cats to Satan.
Speaker 3 (25:08):
You know what I'm saying, Like, that's not what they doing.
So for us, this the the.
Speaker 2 (25:13):
Depths of what you were talking about, it didn't really
come into our experience, you know what I'm saying in
this in that sense we of course we had our
Hallelujah Nights because of you know what I'm saying, like
because of the Halloween was evil, you know so, and
so for us it was more the campy version of
(25:36):
of whatever this was kind of got to us. But
I say all that to say, so you move into
now in the in the parallel and to where like
like I said, like Maga and like trump Ism and
whatever is happening now, like and how it's like that
it's just the Christian dominion and all this stuff that
like we still look at that. We're like, they're still
(25:59):
like in our culture a lot of just traditional values around,
like like reproductive rights and like you know LBGTQ community
that still is like something that like you know, it
is something that really needs to be processed within like
people of colors like communities, Like we still that's still
something that like we we really ain't got right. You
know what I'm saying generally, you know, uh, obviously not
(26:23):
I'm speaking in gross generalities.
Speaker 1 (26:24):
But.
Speaker 2 (26:27):
Those length sometimes those languages like or are different terms
be the entry point into like our world. But then
when we start realizing like oh, y'all are deeply racist
that it's like that, it's like, oh, it's easy to
like be like, oh, okay, I'm done with anything you got
to say, because you do well.
Speaker 1 (26:45):
Yeah, and I will let me ask you a question.
Speaker 3 (26:48):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (26:48):
I really I enjoy doing this series partly because A
I got to talk to so many people whose stories
I've been curious about for a long time, and be
because I really find it interesting to think about this
as a form of folklore.
Speaker 1 (27:00):
And I feel like.
Speaker 4 (27:03):
Kind of of the eighties and that we're seeing a
resurgence of now seems to be. And you know, and
I can speak better for the eighties when I've really
you know, done my homework, and now the homework is
respawning around us every day. But it really appears to
have been an overpoweringly white phenomenon. And I feel like
one of my little theories about it is that why
(27:25):
were white people in the eighties and today evidently so
invested in telling stories where there's these Satanists in the woods.
They're chanting, they're sacrificing goats, they're stealing babies out at
the hospital. They want to get your kids to join,
they want to train you to be a killer or
steal your baby.
Speaker 1 (27:44):
It feels like a lot of kind of.
Speaker 4 (27:47):
White folklore, and folklore based in defending white supremacy is
based on the idea of making being a white person
in America seem like the most dangerous position you could
possibly be in.
Speaker 2 (27:59):
Yeah, it's exactly what it seems like to us, you know,
(28:32):
whether it's the great replacement like it all seems for like,
you know, from my political brain, my social brain, my
black brain, all of it. To me, it's just like
the Venn diagrams of circle. I'm like, this is you
want to be victims so bad.
Speaker 3 (28:51):
Yeah, and it's so bizarre to me.
Speaker 2 (28:53):
And I also I think too, like there's something to
be said about like, yeah, like this is happening in
the woods, you know, like but just thinking about just
old European folklore and that same thing is like the
woods were scary, they're dark, and you know what I mean,
This idea of like this lady that's in the wood
that's eating your children just she's a witch. And I'm like, well,
she might just be single and like and just doesn't
(29:18):
and wants to be left alone. But that's so scary
to y'all, Like you can't figure out.
Speaker 1 (29:22):
She just wants to make her tinctures for having's.
Speaker 2 (29:24):
Sake, listen, man, And I'm like, it's tea. Like you
ever have a stomach ache, you know what I'm saying.
I feel like witchcraft. Are you like your stomach hurt?
You drank these these flowers and now your stomach don't hurt.
That's that's satan, Like you know, I thought that was
medicine anyway. But but yeah, but there is something to
(29:45):
be said about this just like that. It is for
the life of me, It's just so I just don't
relate to it. And I don't know if you just
if you desire empathy, if you like if if somewhere
deep down inside it's like just as a as in
(30:07):
monolith just cannot handle the camera not being on you,
you know what I'm saying.
Speaker 3 (30:14):
So like I think there's an element of that.
Speaker 2 (30:17):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, this yeah, just this idea that
like white white life is fragile and in danger.
Speaker 3 (30:24):
Yeah, whether it's the the Satanists out.
Speaker 2 (30:27):
There, or the hordes of immigrants or the you know,
born criminal black people, like whatever, it is, your way
of life is in danger, and I just yeah, it is.
Speaker 4 (30:39):
It's also like it was a movement that allowed for
the I think like sexual monopolization. I mean it's tough
because everyone kind of lost because it was like if
you haven't had satanic ritual sexual abuse, then like you're
probably fine. It was like, well that we invented that,
so actually nobody has had that, or you might be
(31:00):
because you know, like someone could like just worship Satan
all by themselves. And there have been instances of what
you could very loosely call satanic crime, where like if
you say hail Satan while killing someone and technically it's
a satanic murder, but like, there's never been any evidence
of anything organized or any kind of you know, covens
or groups, let alone a vast network of groups that's
(31:22):
taking over America.
Speaker 1 (31:23):
And one of the things that's so interesting.
Speaker 2 (31:25):
To me.
Speaker 4 (31:27):
Is that we kind of monopolized abuse is something that
happens to white people, and that's the only kind of
abuse worth looking at, specifically the satanic kind. And be
what I find so interesting is that in the eighties
when this was going on, there was this concept within
fundamentalist Christianity and homeschooling types and I think certainly within
(31:48):
the SBC as well to an extent of the Joshua
generation and this generation of homeschool Christian kids that we're
gonna move into roles in government and effectively take over society.
Speaker 1 (32:00):
And it's like, well, that happened, dude.
Speaker 2 (32:03):
I was just going to ask you how You're like, dude,
why is it happening? And it's like, you're right, that's
what you meant. Man, I'd love for you to unpack
that more. That's that's good to be, like, it feels
like we're going through it again. But I specifically remember
that phrase growing up in church, like you guys are
the Joshua generation. What we thought that meant was that
Christ was returning and we was going into the Promised Land,
(32:23):
you know what I'm saying. And like and as somebody
that like, you know, like hip hop had this like
weird fixation on like revelation mark of the Beast in
times like you know, so us who were just like
graffiti kids who happened to go to this church, like.
Speaker 3 (32:40):
Was like, Oh, this is dope.
Speaker 2 (32:42):
We get to see you know, the four trumpets and
the full horsemen, you know what I mean, Like, we
just thought it was just cool for them to say that.
I had no idea that and I don't even think
our church knew that too. That like what you're saying now,
it's like, no, we're talking about moving it into the
halls of power, creating an America that is what y'all
(33:06):
dreamed as y'all's promised land. I would have never thought
of it like that. So yeah, talk about it some more.
Speaker 4 (33:11):
Yeah, Well, I think maybe one of the things that's
coming up is what these stories reveal about how people
imagine the devil and what we kind of use the
devil for.
Speaker 1 (33:23):
Because I think in this case, if you have.
Speaker 4 (33:29):
A movement within Christianity to raise children in order to
you know, specifically, to end up in positions of power
within government or within policymaking in order to make the
government more Christian and remove the sort of you know,
what remains of the idea of the separation of church
and state basically, and we've seen that happening. You know,
(33:51):
I don't have to get into how yeah, you know,
the overturning of Roe v. Wade is certainly a big one.
And sorry Kat in the Cords, And so I think
that there's one of the things I found so interesting
about this project is that it really cemented for me
how the things you experience on an interpersonal level with
(34:11):
one person I think can recur on a larger scale
with a society. And where like if someone is pulling
a lot of bad shit basically, and can I swear yes, great,
people ask me that on my show and I'm like,
of course you can. How else can you express an idea?
But people who are up to something and who are
(34:33):
deeply in denial or just lying about it, yeah, often
really like to accuse someone else of doing the thing
they're doing, or having the motivations they have. And I
feel like, on a larger scale, if you are attempting
to take over society successfully, I might add, then like
a nice way of just creating a misdirection or keeping
(34:53):
anyone from thinking too hard about this or maybe realizing
yourself that it's all a bit sinister is to be like, well,
satan Is are trying to take over society. More so,
when you think about it, we have to take over
society because it's us or satan.
Speaker 2 (35:05):
So yeah, you know, and it's kind of yeah, these
these are radical leftists. They're evil. You know, they're evil.
They're trying to take over society. Yeah, so we have
to fight them.
Speaker 1 (35:16):
Man, I'm like, show me.
Speaker 4 (35:17):
If anything radical leftists just want I mean, again, it's
you know, a gross generalization, but every radical leftist I've
known has basically just wanted to be left alone and
maybe like learn blacksmithing.
Speaker 2 (35:30):
Listen, it's generally like it can just can we live?
Like how about just how about just don't make laws
that make it hard for humans to live? I just
I just it just seems it seems so simple to me,
you know. Yeah, but yeah, now you're right.
Speaker 4 (35:50):
Well, and also there's like such an interesting like loop
to loop happening now where it feels like sort of
white American Protestant has has been taken over by the
prosperity gospel in the past fifty years, which is based
on the idea that if God loves you, he'll give
you stuff. And it feels like, you know, just based
(36:12):
on I'm no expert, but based on the Bible, it's
kind of like hard to be a good rich person,
but now having stuff means God loves you.
Speaker 2 (36:21):
It's been a discussion in house for a very long
time how to deal with that because like, you know, yeah,
like you said, the dude, the main character of the book,
has a lot to say about the wealthy and the
way you need to handle a wealthy.
Speaker 1 (36:37):
But selling stuff in church, you know.
Speaker 2 (36:40):
And I don't know, man, one of the one of
the only rare moments of violence was over selling things.
And uh, but but counterpoint, being rich is pretty cool.
Speaker 4 (36:57):
Also keeping all of your stuff for yourself because it's
your Also.
Speaker 2 (37:01):
Yeah, also power is awesome seems like the like but hey, okay,
but counterpoint, you know, you could either you can either
be free from Pharaoh or you can become fair you
could either be free from Caesar or you.
Speaker 3 (37:19):
Can become Caesar. Seems as though they've chosen the latter.
Speaker 2 (37:23):
Anyway, what would have been my last question is what
you've kind of already kind of kind of said, is
like there's actually some takeaways from that time that help
us sort of kind of discern the moment we in now,
which is this, like you know, created Boogeyman. I think
there's also as a as a side note, like I
(37:44):
know the kids from that from the elementary school or
the yeah, the preschool out here in La Manhattan Beach,
some of them to this day are like, know what
happened to me? You know what I'm saying like, and
and then others going.
Speaker 1 (38:00):
I'm sorry, well and one of the issues too.
Speaker 4 (38:03):
And then we had so many cases similar to McMartin
that kind of replicated the structure is that if you
have any instances of actual abuse that occurred, then they
get hidden under these layers of storytelling. And also if
you're especially if you're a young child, or if you're
in a suggestible state, like if you're under hypnosis, which
was also therapy use at the time, and police departments
(38:25):
there might still be some police departments in this country
still using hypnosis to refresh witness testimony. And what turns
out to be true is that you're not more truthful
under hypnosis, but you're a lot more vulnerable to suggestion.
And also for many people, the things that the scenarios
that you have to repeat over and over again under
repeated questioning, if you're a child, or if you're in
(38:47):
a hypnotic state, or you know, vulnerable in some other way,
begins to feel like truth. You know, there are people
who have wrongfully confessed to crimes that they didn't commit
as adults under intense pressure, with what felt like actual
memories of committing those crimes, even if it was the
scientific impossibility.
Speaker 2 (39:05):
Yeah, that's yeah, in just even understanding just interrogation methods,
crime all that. That's some of the stuff like we
you know, in some of our training, like inner city
training to like the homies when they interact with the police,
when they say so, uh so, what time did that
(39:26):
car drive by?
Speaker 3 (39:27):
Was like, well, it wasn't a car, it was a bike.
Speaker 2 (39:31):
But if you don't but if you but when they
say what time did a car drive by?
Speaker 3 (39:34):
You like, ah, I think like ten. Now you've just
admitted that it was a car, but it wasn't. Ye,
you know what I'm saying, Like, so just little things
like that, true, yeah, you know.
Speaker 2 (39:44):
And sometimes it's like, yeah, I'm just trying to get
out of here, you know, and I'm gonna say whatever
I need to get out of here. But that but
you doing that, you're all so nervous. There's also a
power dynamic. There's just so many things happening there that
like it's so hard to keep your your your your
thought straight, which is why the police.
Speaker 4 (40:02):
Should be amazed at anyone is capable of telling the
truth to them honestly exactly.
Speaker 2 (40:05):
And I know they know that, Like I feel like
they have to know that, like you know what you want.
Speaker 4 (40:10):
They don't think they're being nice. They're not like, oh
I thought this was polite of me.
Speaker 3 (40:14):
Yeah right, but they're like yeah totally.
Speaker 2 (40:16):
Which is why the advice to every young person we
give is very simple, which is just shut the fuck up.
Speaker 3 (40:23):
It's just just shut up, just respectfully, sir. I have
nothing to say.
Speaker 1 (40:30):
Do you ever think.
Speaker 4 (40:31):
About just the Kevin Pollack and the usual suspects. This
is my like sort of mental SoundBite for if the
police bring you in just like I want my lawyer.
Speaker 3 (40:43):
Yeah, you know, uh huh. I always think that too.
Speaker 2 (40:46):
Like my my thought is like listen, man, like I
try to and I try to say like this, sir,
I mean no disrespect.
Speaker 3 (40:55):
As a rule, I don't give statements.
Speaker 1 (40:59):
That's really good. I like that.
Speaker 4 (41:00):
It's like you're like a beautiful hotel and you're like,
our checkout time is eleven o'clock.
Speaker 3 (41:05):
Yes, exactly, simply the policy. It's above me now this
is the.
Speaker 2 (41:11):
Now anyway, Sarah, thank you so much for doing this,
being on the show. Can you please tell us where
to find what the name of the show is, where
to find it?
Speaker 4 (41:23):
Thank you so much for having me on. This was
just such a joy. And I'm so happy that you
ended by telling people not to say anything to the police,
because it's my favorite fact.
Speaker 1 (41:38):
They have to give you a lawyer if you're they
have to be.
Speaker 2 (41:41):
But if you ask for a lawyer and then talk,
you've waived your right to a lawyer.
Speaker 1 (41:47):
So like, just just like.
Speaker 4 (41:49):
Wait until a nice liberal arts grab bustles into the room.
Speaker 3 (41:55):
Yep.
Speaker 1 (41:55):
Inevitably, this was I've had the best time.
Speaker 4 (41:59):
Thank you, thank you so much for having me on
and I'm sorry for some of my answers being monologues.
Speaker 3 (42:04):
No, that's what we needed.
Speaker 4 (42:06):
The show is called The Devil, you know. I wonder
who the devil we know is. It could be white men.
It's coming out from CBC Podcasts. You can find it
anywhere that you get your podcasts, as this tradition, and
we are releasing our first episode on October twentieth. And
I also do a show called You're Wrong About which
(42:28):
you should check out too if you want to hear
about Satanism, well not Satanism, but definitely the Satanic panic,
which qualifies you to talk about everything but Satanism. And
we also have fun survival stories and pop culture misunderstood
history and we have a lot of fun over there.
And thank you so so much for having me. This
(42:49):
was the best time.
Speaker 2 (42:50):
Yes, yes, yes, thank you so much, Sarah Marshall. Y'all,
so yeah, go go go learn about the Devil you know?
Speaker 3 (42:59):
All right, all.
Speaker 2 (43:14):
All right, now, don't you hit stop on this pod.
You better listen to these credits. I need you to
finish this thing so I can get the download numbers. Okay,
so don't stop it yet, but listen. This was recorded
in East lost Boyle Heights by your Boy Propaganda. Tap
in with me at prop hip hop dot com. If
(43:34):
you're in the Coldbrew coffee we got Terraform Coldbrew.
Speaker 3 (43:37):
You can go there dot com.
Speaker 2 (43:39):
And use promo code hood get twenty percent off get
yourself some coffee. This was mixed, edited, and mastered by
your boy Matt Alsowski Killing the Beast softly. Check out
his website Mattowsowski dot com.
Speaker 3 (43:52):
I'm a spell it for you because I know.
Speaker 2 (43:56):
M A T T O S O W s ki
dot com Matthowsowski dot com. He got more music and
stuff like that on there, so gonna check out The heat.
Politics is a member of cool Zone Media, Executive produced
by Sophie Lichterman, part of the iHeartMedia podcast network. Your
(44:16):
theme music and scoring is also by the one and
nobly matdow Sowski. Still killing the beat softly, So listen,
don't let nobody lie to you. If you understand urban living,
you understand politics. These people is not smarter than you.
We'll see y'all next week.
Calls media.
Speaker 2 (00:05):
All right, first things first, The Indling The Beautiful Inling
Live Show October twenty second at the Allegian Theater. Here's
the good news. The good news is Matt and I
have made it into the first round of the Grammys
for this album. So give you a little inside ball here.
The goal is to bring out and invite people that
(00:28):
are You have to be a voting member of the
Recording Academy to like actually vote, right, So the goal
is to put the record in front of people who
could vote, and part of how to impress them is
to fill this room with actual guests and fans. So
you're doing me a huge favor by purchasing a ticket
(00:49):
and showing up, because it might lead to an actual Grammy.
Last time I was nominated was for the Terraform book,
only it was an audiobook and I was up against
Barack Obama, so I didn't even try. I was like this,
there's not even worth trying. But this I might have
(01:09):
a shot. Toby twenty second, Allegiant Theater. You can get
tickets at the Allegiance dot com or click all the
links in all of my stuff and it'll be in
the show notes. All right, now let's talk about Satan
(01:33):
all right, all right, alright, alright, hood politics, well prop
I got another friend here and this is going to
be a fun experience.
Speaker 3 (01:43):
Sarah Marshall say, what's up?
Speaker 1 (01:47):
What's up? How are you? Oh?
Speaker 3 (01:49):
Man glorious? Oh there's the cat already.
Speaker 4 (01:51):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (01:52):
I warned you, you.
Speaker 2 (01:53):
Did, you did, Sarah broadcasting live from the hellscape that
is Portland. Man and all these I'm very brave. You
are very brave to brave these farmers' markets.
Speaker 4 (02:05):
And listen, people got pushy. We did not know how
to form an orderly line. I have seen adults driven
to tears over Chantelle's. Well not really, but it could
happen like next week.
Speaker 3 (02:19):
That's great. I have no idea who Chantarelle is. But
I've never seen really little mushroom.
Speaker 2 (02:23):
Yes, I have never seen until I lived in Portland
for like six months.
Speaker 3 (02:27):
When we're starting a.
Speaker 1 (02:29):
Oh boy, it sounds like the implant was rejected.
Speaker 2 (02:33):
It basically it was essentially it was like what's crazy?
Is like I my introduction to Portland was through really
was through like the music scene, so like this is
this was a while back, but like two of the
dopest DJs, I ever met some of the like the greats.
Like at the time during like the this was around
the time of like Red Bull was doing.
Speaker 1 (02:52):
These like oh god yeah seven yeah.
Speaker 2 (02:55):
Seven to like twelve. You know, they was doing these
like beat battles and stuff like that. So just this
like producer hip hop scene was like incredible in Portland.
Speaker 3 (03:05):
So I was like, dude, poortly got a vibe.
Speaker 2 (03:07):
And then I moved up there and I was like, oh,
I met everyone, I know them all.
Speaker 3 (03:13):
They were all in one room.
Speaker 1 (03:14):
Yeah, they were.
Speaker 3 (03:16):
Oh that's the whole scene.
Speaker 4 (03:18):
If something happened to that room, there would be no
vibe left. And also I think that was at the
time when Portland when not to overly blame California, but
let's just say anyone who had a little bit too
much money was like, hey, Portland, I'll give you twenty
dollars to kill your vibes completely and build a bunch
of condos. And we were like, heck, yeah, I love
(03:40):
when people want me to do anything, even if it's
going to be mad for me.
Speaker 3 (03:44):
Yeah. Yeah. I quickly learned that when yeah I got there,
I'm staying in Northeast.
Speaker 2 (03:49):
Sorry, No, it was I felt like dang, I might
be the problem, because I was like, I got there,
moved in the northeast, and I was like, oh, it
was cool. I was like barbershop, here is at the
Opium restaurant. I was like, oh, it's great. And then
the lady I was like that did like the walk
through through the apartment. She was like, all black people
have left his city and I was like what.
Speaker 4 (04:11):
And the city did not seem upset about it on
the official level.
Speaker 2 (04:17):
So yeah, but either way, some of the best coffee,
beer and ramen there's that.
Speaker 1 (04:25):
Yeah, It's true.
Speaker 4 (04:26):
What we lack in uh diversity and civil rights, we
definitely make up for in microw bruise. I was making
myself laugh yesterday imagining Trump just like calling into Fox
and Friends sorry to say the tea word, and just
like describing images of Portland Halloween yard displays, because I
took a ward testerday and was enjoying all the Halloween stuff,
(04:48):
imagining him being like, there are ghosts taking over people's lawns, giants, spiders.
Speaker 3 (04:54):
Giant spiders. It's it's really bad.
Speaker 2 (04:56):
It's really going.
Speaker 3 (04:58):
To do it is.
Speaker 1 (04:59):
Yeah, it's very satanic town.
Speaker 2 (05:01):
Yes, that's great, which is why I want to talk
to you. So, so how this intersects with our show
is in a lot of ways, it's like history repeating itself,
like whether it's in politics for black people specifically, but
people of color people, you know what I'm saying, whatever
(05:22):
the case may be, you know, all the way down
to even in our churches, like oftentimes we find that
even though we might be reading from the same book,
our experiences are quite different, you know, one of which
recently is the you know, the Charlie Kirk assassination, like
that the next Sunday after that, I if you could
(05:46):
possibly put mirror images of or side by side images
of what was happening in what we were saying at
urban churches versus what was being said in these white churches.
It was like I had the complete opposite. I'm reminded
of when the beginnings of Black Lives Matter, and and
and when Mike Brown was assassinated, you know, and and
(06:09):
just and then and then eventually when you know, Trump
just like ate the American Church, like you just ate it,
like I don't know, like just like you just ate it.
Speaker 3 (06:19):
Like I don't know how.
Speaker 1 (06:22):
Anything to wash it down with.
Speaker 2 (06:24):
Just gobbledy gobble you know, so it was we found
us in you know, inner cities. I'm using trying to
use color mute terms to not make it just as
simple as just black and white, but just just generally
who weren't you know, affluent evangelical spaces who but again
(06:44):
kind of like whether it's cultural or traditional or even
just like are still pretty and fascinated with the person
of Jesus. They are just like, I don't understand what
what fuck going on? Like what what are y'all talking about?
Speaker 3 (07:00):
You know?
Speaker 2 (07:03):
To me, that dovetails into what you about to study,
which was for anyone that's like closer to our age
was probably this was probably one of the first times
this happened where we was like, what are y'all talking about?
And that's the Satanic Panic?
Speaker 1 (07:19):
Oh boy?
Speaker 4 (07:20):
Yeah, And I started studying the Satanic Panic and I
want to say twenty twelve, which is such a funny
time to look back on, yeah, because it seemed like
we were like, this is as much history as there's
ever been, and it was like, well, yeah, wait a minute,
give it like a day, and you know, and it's
(07:41):
not There's never been a time when people are like, wow,
things are really calm and normal back now, Like things
didn't seem normal then. And I think that a lot
of the technology that's allowing the world we're in and
the sort of lack of communication and informational overwhelm was already.
I think we could see it, we could feel it
being built aroun Us. But I started studying the Satanic
(08:03):
panic because I was a baby teacher. I was twenty
three or twenty four years old. I was teaching college
composition classes to students who, like on average, were older
than me, like just from the main you know, which
is very funny. It's like being it's like only slightly
less funny to me than being like, you know, a
one room school house, frontier teacher students who are taller
(08:27):
than she is. But I remember I was kind of
trying to teach myself how to be a writer. I
was in an MFA too, but I was just like
I had that energy that you have in your early
twenties where you're like, how can I improve myself on
this bus ride? And now I just you know, I
want to cool down my overheated brain. If I get
the chance to sit on public transit. I'm just staring
(08:49):
out at people's yards, like I'm in elementary school again.
But I remember reading an article in Texas Monthly, specifically
about the case of fran and Dan Keller, which was
a major case within the Satanic Panic and a relatively
late one where a couple was running a daycare in
the Austin area and accusations were born and started quickly
(09:10):
developing and spreading around between parents, very similar to the
kind of originating McMartin case and Manhattan Beach, California in
the early eighties, where.
Speaker 2 (09:20):
At some point, some point, I'm gonna easy to go
finish this part what got you interested? But then we're
going to have to back up to be like, okay,
what is it.
Speaker 4 (09:26):
We're going to freeze stream and go back in time
like a magic.
Speaker 2 (09:29):
Yeah, yeah, I know, right book finish you got well.
Speaker 4 (09:32):
And so this case and what I found really interesting
there is a detail that it's always really stuck out
to me that, uh, because we also we really we
didn't know how to question young children, certainly not in
a forensic capacity at this point in time. They were
just beginning to realize that we needed to know how
to do that. And so one of the children described
(09:54):
and this kind of got passed around and augmented and
was very much believed in, given credibility by a lot
of adults, including in a fish roles that the colors
had kidnapped a baby gorilla from a park nearby. They
cut off its finger, they filled a bucket with the
blood from the finger, and they made the children in
the daycare drink the blood. And even if you accept
(10:16):
the idea that they're getting that much blood from a
gorilla finger, I just feel, you know, it's the it's
these little things that anyone, even slightly neurodivergent would fixate on,
which makes me think there are not enough neurodivergent people
in positions of power. But also the fact that there
there wasn't a gorilla at this park. There's a very
(10:37):
specific number of, you know, zoo enclosure gorillas in this country,
and that was a very easily checkable fact that the
adults in the room chose not to bother about because
they had allegations of satanic ritual abuse to focus on,
and they brought a trial and they ultimately want a conviction,
which I was just absolutely scandalized by. And I had
(10:59):
the set which I have since very much lost, that
the America that I knew was not a country that
this was supposed to be able to happen in. And
so that the story has become a fixation for me,
and it's it's, you know, taken me into the future,
into a time where I think it's pretty clear that
we're having the Satanic panic again.
Speaker 2 (11:18):
Yes, that is a better way to put it, because oftentimes,
you know, for the younglings, they might think that like, like,
how how are so many people so gullible? Like right, why?
Speaker 1 (11:35):
Like and didn't we used to be smarter?
Speaker 3 (11:37):
Didn't we used to be smarter? Yes?
Speaker 2 (11:39):
Like you like, just why are y'all falling for? I
know I often feel like we're like where are your antenna's?
Like you just just take five extra minutes to like,
just five extra minutes, just one more Google search, just
one one extra question to like for what you're experiencing
(11:59):
or what someone is saying to you. But like you said,
just five extra minutes or just just five seconds to say,
that's a lot of blood out of a finger.
Speaker 4 (12:07):
Right, And children, some children will fib when they're oppressed
by adults and they feel like they have to come
up with an answer to make the situation end. But
kids also just don't really understand that much about the world,
and if they're asked to invent a scenario, then it
should be easy for an adult to realize that they're
feeling pressured to talk and to let them stop and
(12:30):
to not you know, to not be like, all right,
the gorilla finger, we got it, We're moving forward to
this one.
Speaker 2 (12:36):
Bro. Like, how many times just the lack of imagination
or the just loss of empathy or innocence just to
be able to think back to when you were a
child and grown ups were asking you a question, how
terrified you were to make sure that you answered right.
You know what I'm saying, Like, I'm just trying to
(12:56):
give you the right answer, you know, I mean, like
I don't know what that is is, but I'm guessing,
you know what i mean, Like I'm guessing at.
Speaker 3 (13:03):
The right answer.
Speaker 1 (13:04):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (13:05):
So when you say did they did somebody do something?
Did you touch? It is like, uh, yes someone, yes,
you know what I mean?
Speaker 2 (13:13):
Yeah, And then then when they then when you start
explaining it, like like I'm a father, like there are
times that like my daughter is telling me stories from
school and I'm like, oh, okay, that's that's where the
story went.
Speaker 3 (13:25):
That's yeah, I.
Speaker 1 (13:30):
Went off the rails.
Speaker 4 (13:30):
And also I feel like sometimes little kids who are like,
are you telling me something terrible.
Speaker 1 (13:37):
Or are you telling me something normal?
Speaker 4 (13:39):
Yeah, in your way, Because I remember taking going with
a friend and their toddler to like a like a
state far kind of a thing, you know, where they
have like animals and pens, and we saw all pacas
that were in kind of like you know, the stables basically,
And so when she was describing it later, the toddler,
who I think was three at the time, was like,
and they had to stay cake is all day because
(14:02):
you know, she was seeing animals behind bars. If you're
an apathetic little kid, you're like, oh no, I mean
you've seen cartoons. And so they kind of there was
this you know, this refrain at the time, which I
know will be very familiar from recent events of believe
the children or we believe the children in the case
of the McMartin community. And what I find so interesting
(14:25):
about that and the way it repeats today, is that
you're not saying you believe the child when they say
anything other than the thing that you pressured them into
saying to validate your worldview as an adults.
Speaker 2 (15:03):
Okay, so the back up and see if you could
give me a work in definition of yeah, yeah, Satanic panic.
Speaker 4 (15:11):
So okay, So, and I've got to really dive into
all this in a new mini series I have coming
out from CBC Podcasts. And one of the people who
I got to interview on that show argued that really
there are many Satanic panics and different panics happening simultaneously,
(15:33):
and that the one we know from the eighties is
also history repeating itself because in a way that we
never thought would happen when we had you know, we
were in section advanced time in human history that we
had VCRs and stuff.
Speaker 3 (15:44):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (15:45):
So the Satanic Panic.
Speaker 4 (15:46):
Of the eighties, which has been my fixation for a
while the eighties into the nineties, began in the early eighties,
and there are so many kind of originating points that
you can kind.
Speaker 1 (15:59):
Of trace it back to if you like.
Speaker 4 (16:01):
But two of the moments when I think you can
say it really began or if in kind of wildfire
terms that turned from a small blaze into something that
had the power to leap around North America was a
with the publication in nineteen eighty of a book called
Michelle Remembers, which was a book about a Canadian woman
(16:21):
who went into therapy. Her therapist was like, you have
no reason to not be fine. Why aren't you fine,
And then decided that the reason she wasn't fixed yet,
which was a thing we very much believed women should
be able to do in therapy in the seventies, Yes,
was he got her into some kind of a trance
(16:42):
like state and believed that he was regressing her to
herself as a young child, and she began producing kind
of these initially, these kind of dreamlike images that he
decided had to me, and that she had been given
to a coven of witches by her mother, and they
decided that it was a Satanic cult in fact, and
(17:03):
also that Victoria, British Columbia was one of the two
main headquarters of Satanism in the world, which is incredible
to me because we used to go camping there all
the time when I was a kid, and I never
saw anything to indicate that you'd think that I would
have heard at least occasional chanting. I just find that
so funny. Victoria is really an adorable town. The last
(17:23):
time I was there there was like a parade of
at least one hundred bagpipers piping, you know, because it's
one of your less satanically viby locations. And so they
take this story to a publisher. They also in the
process fall in love. They leave their spouses. It's a
huge scandal, at least in their neighborhoods it is. But
(17:47):
what the story becomes for the public is the story
of this heroic therapist who rescued this woman from memories
of satanic ritual abuse. And it is like the fran
and Dan Keller case in the Bucket of Blood, where
you look at the details or you check it against
just school photos and records of her being in elementary school.
What her siblings, who weren't mentioned in the book talk about.
(18:10):
And I got to interview one of Michelle's sisters for
the show, which was truly one of the most I
don't know one of the great honors of my life
is a historian, honestly, and also the ex wife who
her therapist left behind, and they, I think were able
(18:33):
to turn a story. And also the therapist, Lawrence Pastor.
Was it about Catholic And I think that this couple
was able to turn their story from this illicit affair
that had damaged both of their families and had been
a betrayal of their partners and make it into the
story where actually they were being very heroic because they
had to defeat Satan. He was coming like pretty soon.
(18:54):
The book says that Satan's going to come in nineteen eighty,
and it's published in nineteen eighty the time you're reading it,
you're already late, yea. And then the second thing, which
is directly influenced by Michell remembers in which Americans generally
start hearing about in I believe nineteen eighty three, It's
happening starts brewing eighty two eighty three in southern California
(19:17):
is the McMartin preschool trial, when police and social workers
who have very minimal training again and how to question
children about sexual abuse, because this is a topic that
law enforcement is really just beginning to think about seriously
around this time, and that's kind of come out of
the shadows, in large part due to the Women's movement.
(19:38):
A mother lacks a complaint against a teacher or a
caretaker at the nursery school that her child attends, and
there is this belief held by a lot of newly
trained social workers who are trained partly on Michelle Remembers,
which has been given to them as kind of a textbook,
even though it's a mass market paperback that looks like
(19:59):
flowers in the attic on the idea that there is
way more satanic abuse happening than anyone has ever realized,
and wouldn't wouldn't it be kind of heroic to discover some?
And the thing is, you know, if you're questioning very
young children and you have an agenda, and I think
anyone who has a young child or who has spent
(20:21):
time with, you know, preschool aged children, knows this, you
can kind of get them to say almost whatever you
want if you put enough time into it, and if
you blend reality and play. And so that case ultimately
goes to trial. It's the most costly trial and kind
of series of legal outcomes and appeals and so on
(20:46):
after that until the O. J. Simpson trial.
Speaker 1 (20:48):
But until O. J.
Speaker 4 (20:49):
Simpson, it's the most costly kind of legal event in
California history. But of course, at the time that that
news breaks, huge news, and of course from a media perspective,
it's kind of great bad news to be reporting on,
because like, what's going to make people pay attention faster
than the word satanists, right aside from free money. I
(21:12):
guess that could be good.
Speaker 1 (21:14):
So there you go.
Speaker 3 (21:15):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (21:16):
I remember the phrase in Lauren Hill's song or in
the Fuji song how many mics when she says, go
ask Alice if you don't believe me. I had no
idea what that was until I realized that Alice is
was a book about this young girl's you know her, yeah,
(21:40):
falling into Satanism and all this good stuff and just
like and it was like and the lady that wrote
it even was like, yeah, I'm I made this.
Speaker 3 (21:48):
I made all this it up.
Speaker 1 (21:49):
I'm an old Mormon lady, and I have fun doing this.
Speaker 4 (21:51):
Yes, it's also fun too, because like she really falls
into the dangerous world of pot, and I think kind
of incidentally becomes a Satanist because of that, because pot
is a gateway.
Speaker 1 (22:01):
Direct to Satanism. And I guess Portland does proof of that.
Speaker 3 (22:04):
Yes, exactly. I love it. So the version. So there's this.
Speaker 2 (22:09):
So there's another show that did a deep dive on this,
called The Devil in the Deep Blue Sea, and it's
by this dude named Mike Cosper from this organization called
Christianity Today. Now, theirs is very much more like you know,
the calls coming from inside the house, like they were
more like as people who are practicing believing Christians, like
(22:30):
who looked back at their own past and was just like, yo,
that was we really dropped the ball on this one,
you know, like really looking back on that and being
like looking at other stuff like what was going on,
like like it's easier to put you know, to think
of the enemy and you know, the evil is some
(22:51):
sort of dark cabal rather than the fact that like yeah, no,
the SPC or you know, the Southern Baptist Convention was
like bro, were like we're molesting children, like they're no,
your pastor's doing it. You're saying like, uh, you know,
all sorts of scandals and stuff like that. That was
like inside the house that it was almost like ways
for which they were coping or avoiding, you know, issues
(23:14):
they need to talk about themselves, which I thought was
like super.
Speaker 3 (23:17):
Interesting coming I got to read that, Yeah, it's a
it's a podcast, it's a really good po oh oh wow.
Speaker 4 (23:22):
I didn't know Christianity Today was doing that, Yeah, and
they did. Actually, Christianity Today did a couple of really
amazing expose as and kind of put journalistic work into
exposing a couple of kind of early Satanic panic.
Speaker 1 (23:35):
Yeah, I guess.
Speaker 3 (23:38):
Yeah, and uh.
Speaker 4 (23:40):
The author of Satan Underground, which is uh, those are
amazing pieces.
Speaker 3 (23:46):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (23:46):
But I say that to say one a setup for like,
uh to be very like I mean, just to say
the way like we saw like this the effects of
the Satanic Panic, how it got into like the inner
city was not so much.
Speaker 3 (24:02):
Like like our churches.
Speaker 2 (24:03):
We were like, it's like the the entry level like
stuff of just like look, dude, you know, like any
church is like stay away from you know, spells and
witchcraft and you know what I'm saying, and like stuff
like that, like Halloween's dangerous, you know. And then you know,
the worst it got for us was like they started
ruining our cartoons because like, you can't watch this because
(24:27):
it's got the spirit of witchcraft in it.
Speaker 3 (24:29):
You know.
Speaker 2 (24:30):
Luckily I had a mom that was a little more
like it's fine, son, Like, so my mom definitely didn't
like fall into a lot of we still got to
dress for Halloween and all this good stuff. But like
at the end of the day, I say, I have
to say, like for us, like Satan worship was like Sarah,
that's white shit, Like yeah.
Speaker 3 (24:50):
We was like.
Speaker 2 (24:52):
So so for our That's what I mean by like
for our churches, Like that's not really, that's not really
something we worried about, you know what I'm saying, Like,
we're not worried about these little hood kids doing, you know,
sacrificing cats to Satan.
Speaker 3 (25:08):
You know what I'm saying, Like, that's not what they doing.
So for us, this the the.
Speaker 2 (25:13):
Depths of what you were talking about, it didn't really
come into our experience, you know what I'm saying in
this in that sense we of course we had our
Hallelujah Nights because of you know what I'm saying, like
because of the Halloween was evil, you know so, and
so for us it was more the campy version of
(25:36):
of whatever this was kind of got to us. But
I say all that to say, so you move into
now in the in the parallel and to where like
like I said, like Maga and like trump Ism and
whatever is happening now, like and how it's like that
it's just the Christian dominion and all this stuff that
like we still look at that. We're like, they're still
(25:59):
like in our culture a lot of just traditional values around,
like like reproductive rights and like you know LBGTQ community
that still is like something that like you know, it
is something that really needs to be processed within like
people of colors like communities, Like we still that's still
something that like we we really ain't got right. You
know what I'm saying generally, you know, uh, obviously not
(26:23):
I'm speaking in gross generalities.
Speaker 1 (26:24):
But.
Speaker 2 (26:27):
Those length sometimes those languages like or are different terms
be the entry point into like our world. But then
when we start realizing like oh, y'all are deeply racist
that it's like that, it's like, oh, it's easy to
like be like, oh, okay, I'm done with anything you got
to say, because you do well.
Speaker 1 (26:45):
Yeah, and I will let me ask you a question.
Speaker 3 (26:48):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (26:48):
I really I enjoy doing this series partly because A
I got to talk to so many people whose stories
I've been curious about for a long time, and be
because I really find it interesting to think about this
as a form of folklore.
Speaker 1 (27:00):
And I feel like.
Speaker 4 (27:03):
Kind of of the eighties and that we're seeing a
resurgence of now seems to be. And you know, and
I can speak better for the eighties when I've really
you know, done my homework, and now the homework is
respawning around us every day. But it really appears to
have been an overpoweringly white phenomenon. And I feel like
one of my little theories about it is that why
(27:25):
were white people in the eighties and today evidently so
invested in telling stories where there's these Satanists in the woods.
They're chanting, they're sacrificing goats, they're stealing babies out at
the hospital. They want to get your kids to join,
they want to train you to be a killer or
steal your baby.
Speaker 1 (27:44):
It feels like a lot of kind of.
Speaker 4 (27:47):
White folklore, and folklore based in defending white supremacy is
based on the idea of making being a white person
in America seem like the most dangerous position you could
possibly be in.
Speaker 2 (27:59):
Yeah, it's exactly what it seems like to us, you know,
(28:32):
whether it's the great replacement like it all seems for like,
you know, from my political brain, my social brain, my
black brain, all of it. To me, it's just like
the Venn diagrams of circle. I'm like, this is you
want to be victims so bad.
Speaker 3 (28:51):
Yeah, and it's so bizarre to me.
Speaker 2 (28:53):
And I also I think too, like there's something to
be said about like, yeah, like this is happening in
the woods, you know, like but just thinking about just
old European folklore and that same thing is like the
woods were scary, they're dark, and you know what I mean,
This idea of like this lady that's in the wood
that's eating your children just she's a witch. And I'm like, well,
she might just be single and like and just doesn't
(29:18):
and wants to be left alone. But that's so scary
to y'all, Like you can't figure out.
Speaker 1 (29:22):
She just wants to make her tinctures for having's.
Speaker 2 (29:24):
Sake, listen, man, And I'm like, it's tea. Like you
ever have a stomach ache, you know what I'm saying.
I feel like witchcraft. Are you like your stomach hurt?
You drank these these flowers and now your stomach don't hurt.
That's that's satan, Like you know, I thought that was
medicine anyway. But but yeah, but there is something to
(29:45):
be said about this just like that. It is for
the life of me, It's just so I just don't
relate to it. And I don't know if you just
if you desire empathy, if you like if if somewhere
deep down inside it's like just as a as in
(30:07):
monolith just cannot handle the camera not being on you,
you know what I'm saying.
Speaker 3 (30:14):
So like I think there's an element of that.
Speaker 2 (30:17):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, this yeah, just this idea that
like white white life is fragile and in danger.
Speaker 3 (30:24):
Yeah, whether it's the the Satanists out.
Speaker 2 (30:27):
There, or the hordes of immigrants or the you know,
born criminal black people, like whatever, it is, your way
of life is in danger, and I just yeah, it is.
Speaker 4 (30:39):
It's also like it was a movement that allowed for
the I think like sexual monopolization. I mean it's tough
because everyone kind of lost because it was like if
you haven't had satanic ritual sexual abuse, then like you're
probably fine. It was like, well that we invented that,
so actually nobody has had that, or you might be
(31:00):
because you know, like someone could like just worship Satan
all by themselves. And there have been instances of what
you could very loosely call satanic crime, where like if
you say hail Satan while killing someone and technically it's
a satanic murder, but like, there's never been any evidence
of anything organized or any kind of you know, covens
or groups, let alone a vast network of groups that's
(31:22):
taking over America.
Speaker 1 (31:23):
And one of the things that's so interesting.
Speaker 2 (31:25):
To me.
Speaker 4 (31:27):
Is that we kind of monopolized abuse is something that
happens to white people, and that's the only kind of
abuse worth looking at, specifically the satanic kind. And be
what I find so interesting is that in the eighties
when this was going on, there was this concept within
fundamentalist Christianity and homeschooling types and I think certainly within
(31:48):
the SBC as well to an extent of the Joshua
generation and this generation of homeschool Christian kids that we're
gonna move into roles in government and effectively take over society.
Speaker 1 (32:00):
And it's like, well, that happened, dude.
Speaker 2 (32:03):
I was just going to ask you how You're like, dude,
why is it happening? And it's like, you're right, that's
what you meant. Man, I'd love for you to unpack
that more. That's that's good to be, like, it feels
like we're going through it again. But I specifically remember
that phrase growing up in church, like you guys are
the Joshua generation. What we thought that meant was that
Christ was returning and we was going into the Promised Land,
(32:23):
you know what I'm saying. And like and as somebody
that like, you know, like hip hop had this like
weird fixation on like revelation mark of the Beast in
times like you know, so us who were just like
graffiti kids who happened to go to this church, like.
Speaker 3 (32:40):
Was like, Oh, this is dope.
Speaker 2 (32:42):
We get to see you know, the four trumpets and
the full horsemen, you know what I mean, Like, we
just thought it was just cool for them to say that.
I had no idea that and I don't even think
our church knew that too. That like what you're saying now,
it's like, no, we're talking about moving it into the
halls of power, creating an America that is what y'all
(33:06):
dreamed as y'all's promised land. I would have never thought
of it like that. So yeah, talk about it some more.
Speaker 4 (33:11):
Yeah, Well, I think maybe one of the things that's
coming up is what these stories reveal about how people
imagine the devil and what we kind of use the
devil for.
Speaker 1 (33:23):
Because I think in this case, if you have.
Speaker 4 (33:29):
A movement within Christianity to raise children in order to
you know, specifically, to end up in positions of power
within government or within policymaking in order to make the
government more Christian and remove the sort of you know,
what remains of the idea of the separation of church
and state basically, and we've seen that happening. You know,
(33:51):
I don't have to get into how yeah, you know,
the overturning of Roe v. Wade is certainly a big one.
And sorry Kat in the Cords, And so I think
that there's one of the things I found so interesting
about this project is that it really cemented for me
how the things you experience on an interpersonal level with
(34:11):
one person I think can recur on a larger scale
with a society. And where like if someone is pulling
a lot of bad shit basically, and can I swear yes, great,
people ask me that on my show and I'm like,
of course you can. How else can you express an idea?
But people who are up to something and who are
(34:33):
deeply in denial or just lying about it, yeah, often
really like to accuse someone else of doing the thing
they're doing, or having the motivations they have. And I
feel like, on a larger scale, if you are attempting
to take over society successfully, I might add, then like
a nice way of just creating a misdirection or keeping
(34:53):
anyone from thinking too hard about this or maybe realizing
yourself that it's all a bit sinister is to be like, well,
satan Is are trying to take over society. More so,
when you think about it, we have to take over
society because it's us or satan.
Speaker 2 (35:05):
So yeah, you know, and it's kind of yeah, these
these are radical leftists. They're evil. You know, they're evil.
They're trying to take over society. Yeah, so we have
to fight them.
Speaker 1 (35:16):
Man, I'm like, show me.
Speaker 4 (35:17):
If anything radical leftists just want I mean, again, it's
you know, a gross generalization, but every radical leftist I've
known has basically just wanted to be left alone and
maybe like learn blacksmithing.
Speaker 2 (35:30):
Listen, it's generally like it can just can we live?
Like how about just how about just don't make laws
that make it hard for humans to live? I just
I just it just seems it seems so simple to me,
you know. Yeah, but yeah, now you're right.
Speaker 4 (35:50):
Well, and also there's like such an interesting like loop
to loop happening now where it feels like sort of
white American Protestant has has been taken over by the
prosperity gospel in the past fifty years, which is based
on the idea that if God loves you, he'll give
you stuff. And it feels like, you know, just based
(36:12):
on I'm no expert, but based on the Bible, it's
kind of like hard to be a good rich person,
but now having stuff means God loves you.
Speaker 2 (36:21):
It's been a discussion in house for a very long
time how to deal with that because like, you know, yeah,
like you said, the dude, the main character of the book,
has a lot to say about the wealthy and the
way you need to handle a wealthy.
Speaker 1 (36:37):
But selling stuff in church, you know.
Speaker 2 (36:40):
And I don't know, man, one of the one of
the only rare moments of violence was over selling things.
And uh, but but counterpoint, being rich is pretty cool.
Speaker 4 (36:57):
Also keeping all of your stuff for yourself because it's
your Also.
Speaker 2 (37:01):
Yeah, also power is awesome seems like the like but hey, okay,
but counterpoint, you know, you could either you can either
be free from Pharaoh or you can become fair you
could either be free from Caesar or you.
Speaker 3 (37:19):
Can become Caesar. Seems as though they've chosen the latter.
Speaker 2 (37:23):
Anyway, what would have been my last question is what
you've kind of already kind of kind of said, is
like there's actually some takeaways from that time that help
us sort of kind of discern the moment we in now,
which is this, like you know, created Boogeyman. I think
there's also as a as a side note, like I
(37:44):
know the kids from that from the elementary school or
the yeah, the preschool out here in La Manhattan Beach,
some of them to this day are like, know what
happened to me? You know what I'm saying like, and
and then others going.
Speaker 1 (38:00):
I'm sorry, well and one of the issues too.
Speaker 4 (38:03):
And then we had so many cases similar to McMartin
that kind of replicated the structure is that if you
have any instances of actual abuse that occurred, then they
get hidden under these layers of storytelling. And also if
you're especially if you're a young child, or if you're
in a suggestible state, like if you're under hypnosis, which
was also therapy use at the time, and police departments
(38:25):
there might still be some police departments in this country
still using hypnosis to refresh witness testimony. And what turns
out to be true is that you're not more truthful
under hypnosis, but you're a lot more vulnerable to suggestion.
And also for many people, the things that the scenarios
that you have to repeat over and over again under
repeated questioning, if you're a child, or if you're in
(38:47):
a hypnotic state, or you know, vulnerable in some other way,
begins to feel like truth. You know, there are people
who have wrongfully confessed to crimes that they didn't commit
as adults under intense pressure, with what felt like actual
memories of committing those crimes, even if it was the
scientific impossibility.
Speaker 2 (39:05):
Yeah, that's yeah, in just even understanding just interrogation methods,
crime all that. That's some of the stuff like we
you know, in some of our training, like inner city
training to like the homies when they interact with the police,
when they say so, uh so, what time did that
(39:26):
car drive by?
Speaker 3 (39:27):
Was like, well, it wasn't a car, it was a bike.
Speaker 2 (39:31):
But if you don't but if you but when they
say what time did a car drive by?
Speaker 3 (39:34):
You like, ah, I think like ten. Now you've just
admitted that it was a car, but it wasn't. Ye,
you know what I'm saying, Like, so just little things
like that, true, yeah, you know.
Speaker 2 (39:44):
And sometimes it's like, yeah, I'm just trying to get
out of here, you know, and I'm gonna say whatever
I need to get out of here. But that but
you doing that, you're all so nervous. There's also a
power dynamic. There's just so many things happening there that
like it's so hard to keep your your your your
thought straight, which is why the police.
Speaker 4 (40:02):
Should be amazed at anyone is capable of telling the
truth to them honestly exactly.
Speaker 2 (40:05):
And I know they know that, Like I feel like
they have to know that, like you know what you want.
Speaker 4 (40:10):
They don't think they're being nice. They're not like, oh
I thought this was polite of me.
Speaker 3 (40:14):
Yeah right, but they're like yeah totally.
Speaker 2 (40:16):
Which is why the advice to every young person we
give is very simple, which is just shut the fuck up.
Speaker 3 (40:23):
It's just just shut up, just respectfully, sir. I have
nothing to say.
Speaker 1 (40:30):
Do you ever think.
Speaker 4 (40:31):
About just the Kevin Pollack and the usual suspects. This
is my like sort of mental SoundBite for if the
police bring you in just like I want my lawyer.
Speaker 3 (40:43):
Yeah, you know, uh huh. I always think that too.
Speaker 2 (40:46):
Like my my thought is like listen, man, like I
try to and I try to say like this, sir,
I mean no disrespect.
Speaker 3 (40:55):
As a rule, I don't give statements.
Speaker 1 (40:59):
That's really good. I like that.
Speaker 4 (41:00):
It's like you're like a beautiful hotel and you're like,
our checkout time is eleven o'clock.
Speaker 3 (41:05):
Yes, exactly, simply the policy. It's above me now this
is the.
Speaker 2 (41:11):
Now anyway, Sarah, thank you so much for doing this,
being on the show. Can you please tell us where
to find what the name of the show is, where
to find it?
Speaker 4 (41:23):
Thank you so much for having me on. This was
just such a joy. And I'm so happy that you
ended by telling people not to say anything to the police,
because it's my favorite fact.
Speaker 1 (41:38):
They have to give you a lawyer if you're they
have to be.
Speaker 2 (41:41):
But if you ask for a lawyer and then talk,
you've waived your right to a lawyer.
Speaker 1 (41:47):
So like, just just like.
Speaker 4 (41:49):
Wait until a nice liberal arts grab bustles into the room.
Speaker 3 (41:55):
Yep.
Speaker 1 (41:55):
Inevitably, this was I've had the best time.
Speaker 4 (41:59):
Thank you, thank you so much for having me on
and I'm sorry for some of my answers being monologues.
Speaker 3 (42:04):
No, that's what we needed.
Speaker 4 (42:06):
The show is called The Devil, you know. I wonder
who the devil we know is. It could be white men.
It's coming out from CBC Podcasts. You can find it
anywhere that you get your podcasts, as this tradition, and
we are releasing our first episode on October twentieth. And
I also do a show called You're Wrong About which
(42:28):
you should check out too if you want to hear
about Satanism, well not Satanism, but definitely the Satanic panic,
which qualifies you to talk about everything but Satanism. And
we also have fun survival stories and pop culture misunderstood
history and we have a lot of fun over there.
And thank you so so much for having me. This
(42:49):
was the best time.
Speaker 2 (42:50):
Yes, yes, yes, thank you so much, Sarah Marshall. Y'all,
so yeah, go go go learn about the Devil you know?
Speaker 3 (42:59):
All right, all.
Speaker 2 (43:14):
All right, now, don't you hit stop on this pod.
You better listen to these credits. I need you to
finish this thing so I can get the download numbers. Okay,
so don't stop it yet, but listen. This was recorded
in East lost Boyle Heights by your Boy Propaganda. Tap
in with me at prop hip hop dot com. If
(43:34):
you're in the Coldbrew coffee we got Terraform Coldbrew.
Speaker 3 (43:37):
You can go there dot com.
Speaker 2 (43:39):
And use promo code hood get twenty percent off get
yourself some coffee. This was mixed, edited, and mastered by
your boy Matt Alsowski Killing the Beast softly. Check out
his website Mattowsowski dot com.
Speaker 3 (43:52):
I'm a spell it for you because I know.
Speaker 2 (43:56):
M A T T O S O W s ki
dot com Matthowsowski dot com. He got more music and
stuff like that on there, so gonna check out The heat.
Politics is a member of cool Zone Media, Executive produced
by Sophie Lichterman, part of the iHeartMedia podcast network. Your
(44:16):
theme music and scoring is also by the one and
nobly matdow Sowski. Still killing the beat softly, So listen,
don't let nobody lie to you. If you understand urban living,
you understand politics. These people is not smarter than you.
We'll see y'all next week.
Host
Prop
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