Hoops Tonight - Heat-Celtics Game 4 reaction: Jayson Tatum & Boston rout Butler & Miami

Jason Timpf reacts to Jayson Tatum and the Celtics' dominant Game 4 victory over Jimmy Butler and the Miami Heat in the NBA's Eastern Conference Finals. Despite Boston's Game 4 performance, will their inconsistency come back to hurt them? Later, Jason discusses key storylines ahead of Mavericks-Warriors Game 4 as Steph Curry looks to guide Golden State to another NBA Finals.

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Episode Transcript

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(02:07):
presented by FanDuel Here at the volume. This is Monday, right,
Happy Monday everyone. The days are running together, as is
always the case during the NBA Playoffs, yet another massive blowout.
We're not gonna get too far into the xs and
ohs of this game, because it just doesn't warrant that.
But later we're gonna spend a good portion of tonight's

(02:27):
show talking about Golden State Dallas last night, really getting
into the weeds. Um. As you guys know, I didn't
really have an opportunity to get into my normal breakdown
last night because I went on with Colin cowherd Uh.
Funny story actually that I wanted to tell you guys.
I was managing a sales team at Verizon Wireless back

(02:49):
in Gosh. It was two thousand fifteen in the fall,
so seven years ago, and I I was good at it,
but I hated it, like I was just I was
just miserable, you know. And I used to drive down
this long road to get to where I was going.
I had about a forty five minute commute every day.
I was working six days a week. I was working
crazy hours, and in the car I used to listen

(03:11):
to Colin Cowhard every single day on my way to work,
just like many of you did growing up. Obviously kind
of a staple in the industry. And uh, you know,
one day as I was driving, I was listening to
Colin introduced Nick Wright. Many of you guys also listened
to Big Basketball Guy. Uh definitely has it takes that

(03:33):
are interesting, you know. And uh, I I sat there
and I was like, man, like, I really want to
do this. And on that day, I I went in
and I called my district manager and I asked to
go back to being a sales rep and to go
back to part time and I told my wife that
I wanted to do this, and a lot has changed

(03:53):
and a lot has happened over the course of the
next seven years. It definitely wasn't a straight line path.
I took a detour to try to play for I
Strow Basketball for a while too. Like it was very complicated, um,
but it was an absolutely surreal moment last night to
get to be on his show. And you know, I,
I obviously had ambitions of getting into this industry, but

(04:15):
for my first opportunity to get to work for this
company and to work for Colin and for all of
you guys listening like he's he's just as great of
a person as you would expect. And the way he's
treated me, the way his company has treated me, has
been incredible. And I'm loving every minute of it. And
obviously it's just a little non basketball kind of detour,
but I just wanted to give you guys a little
bit of a peek into a very brief window into

(04:37):
how I made the decision to try to get into
this industry and and how I started down this path,
and it was it was kind of a cool moment
last night, And obviously I hope to be there several
times in the future. If you guys haven't seen that,
go to the Volumes YouTube channel and scroll down. We
talked a good almost half hour Colin and I about
a lot of stuff, including the Golden State Warriors and
the Celtics and a bunch of good stuff. But really

(04:58):
quickly before we get started, make sure you liked this
video and subscribe to the Volumes YouTube channel, um so
that you don't miss any more of our videos. Don't
forget to follow me on Twitter at underscore Jason lt
so you guys can see all the video content that
I release and breakdowns and things along those things along
those lines. And for whatever reason you can't catch one
of these shows and you're you know, too busy to

(05:20):
sit on YouTube for a little while. Check out our
podcast feed. It's under Leakers Tonight right now. But you know,
obviously we call ourselves Soups Tonight. But that's where you'll
find that feed on the on the podcast front. But
let's get started. So with Boston, you know, they've they've
been the most frustrating team that I can see in
this field in terms of their inconsistent effort, frustrating for

(05:41):
betting purposes, I've made money and lost money on them
and on so many different occasions, and this playoff run
is funny. I I bet an alternate spread tonight. I
got him at minus two minus twelve and a half
at plus two hundred on fan duel, and it was
I felt. I felt like that was a comfortable number
I had to feel. And they went by twenty or thirty,
but I thought that it was a comfortable number that

(06:03):
they'd be able to cover. That gave some good odds,
and you know, with their inconsistent effort. Obviously they burned
me in game three, but here in game four, it
was absolutely predictable and a slam dunk home run to
think that Emil Udoka would rip these guys a new
one and they'd come out and they'd play with force
on both ends of the floor. And when they play

(06:25):
with force on both ends of the floor, they are
so much more talented on both ends of the floor
that even a team that's as good as Miami. And
remind you, like reminder, this is this is bam out
of Bio and Jimmy Butler. These are all star caliber players.
Are these superstars? No, these are two all stars and
a bunch of really solid role players, all of which

(06:48):
can shoot, most of which at least compete on the
defensive end, and they are completely outclassed by this Boston
team when they're playing with Force. And you know what's
so interesting is playing with Forrest goes on both ends
of the floor on the defensive end, like we saw.
We saw Boston completely mail in the defensive end of
the floor in Game three. It was absolutely embarrassing. It

(07:11):
was the low point of this playoff run for them
because even with their inconsistent effort on on offense that
has taken place throughout this playoff run, it seemed mostly
associated with decision making, and for the most part, their
defense has been really, really good until they got into
this series. I think I think it's a combination of
a couple of different things. I think this is this
is an issue for them. I don't think they respect

(07:32):
the Miami heat. I don't think they you know, I
think that I think Boston had the appropriate fear of
Milwaukee and of Brooklyn, and I think as a result,
they approached the game seriously on the defensive end in
both of those series. Obviously, they did a great job
against Brooklyn. They held Milwaukee to eighty two points, prone
hunter possessions and half court sets, which is just a
ridiculous defensive marker for an all time great player like

(07:55):
Janice and Drew Holiday and all the shooting that Milwaukee
had right but for whatever reason, that same defensive intensity
just didn't translate over into this series in a consistent basis.
They held massive leads in all of the games except
for one. They were up thirteen in Game one. They
had thirty plus point leads in both Game two and
Game four. They were within one late in Game three.

(08:16):
I told you guys, Boston was good enough to sweep
this series. They're just have had inconsistent effort, you know.
And again on offense with force, it's about getting into
the paint. And a lot of people don't understand this,
like when it comes to driving to the basket, when
you go play pick up at a men's league or
in your y m c A or a you know,
an l A fitness or something. You know, beating people

(08:38):
to the basket is not exactly overly complicated. No one's
really playing all that hard, No one's in great shape.
When you're playing a really good athlete on the defensive end,
you're you're never gonna get like a clear, straight line drive.
More than often you're just trying to get an inch
of leverage, just a tiny bit of space, and then
you're trying to shoot that gap. You're almost trying to

(08:58):
go through their shoulder. It's a physicality game, like driving
to the basket requires a great deal of physicality. And
so when Boston comes out without force and they aren't
deliberately trying to plow through those tiny gaps in the
defense to get into the paint so that they can
get their driving kick game going, and then on the
defensive end, when they're not playing with force, they're unrecognizable.

(09:20):
And what's particularly dangerous with that is this is we're
entering into a phase of the playoffs. I mean, we've
already been there, but we're entering into a phase of
the playoffs where the margin for error is extraordinarily small.
Like let's just look back at last year's NBA Finals.
We're talking about, you know, one insane Hoannice defensive play

(09:44):
where he plays in drop coverage and dissuades Devin Booker
from taking a pull up, forces him to throw a lob,
and then turns around and makes an absurd defensive play
at the rim on DeAndre Ayton, and then you know,
and then other game where uh, Devin Booker drove into
the lane, picked up his dribble on p J. Tucker

(10:06):
and Drew Holiday comes in, it takes the ball away
and we get to run out alley. Youop for Janice.
That's two plays that swung a playoff series. I go
back two rounds prior. I'm looking at Kevin Durant taking
a spinning fade away from the three point line where
his toes are on the line, and if they're two

(10:27):
inches further back, Brooklyn advances. And that's just two series
from a very recent playoff run. I could take a
half hour here for you guys and lay out time
and time again where these things end up getting determined
by the slightest of margins and the slightest of factors.
You and again, some of this is a lack of

(10:48):
respect for Miami, a lack of that fear. But look
at how even against a team that is so inferior
from a talent perspective like Miami, how they're too too.
This series is tied, Like how wild is that this
series Boston has utterly and completely dominated Miami in this series.

(11:10):
Is tied because of the fact that they've let go
of the rope a handful of times in the third
quarter of Game one and to start Game three, and
it costs them what should have been a sweep. Here's
the problem. Golden State's most likely going to advance or
up three. Oh, obviously we're gonna talk a lot about
them here in a little bit. Golden State is not

(11:32):
gonna mail it in. Golden State is not going to
make those mistakes. You know why, because they know what
it's like to step Steph has lost an NBA championship
in a game where in the fourth quarter he threw
a wild behind the back pass out of bounce to

(11:53):
to a wide open Clay Thompson in the corner, like sloppy.
He lost a game on little mistakes like that. There's
scar tissue that forms there. You the pain of loss
builds an understanding of how easily how easy it is
to lose, and then you take you take an extra

(12:15):
attention to detail to make sure that that doesn't happen again.
That scar tissue that Golden State has is such a
huge advantage for them going into this finals. Boston has
not learned, like I probably won't even bet on them
in Game five because who the hell knows what they're
gonna do every time they every time they come out

(12:37):
and show because in terms of their two way talent,
they're better than everybody in in two way talent. I
think Golden State has more offensive talent, but they rely
on some guys that are competing defensively without the appropriate
physical tools. Boston has guys that are amazing physical specimens
playing defense at an extremely high level, and they have

(12:58):
a lot of offensive talent. But I would right now
pick Golden State to beat them. They have a they
have the appropriate understanding of what is going to happen
in the next round. You know, there's a You remember
in two thousand fifteen when the Warriors came into the
NBA Finals and they ran into Lebron and Lebron you know,

(13:23):
the Calves aren't a dynasty, but Lebron in and of
himself was a dynasty. At that point. Lebron understood what
that stage was, he understood everything that it entailed. And
Steph and Clay were there new they were new to
the environment. Draymon was new to the environment, and they
kind of eased their way into that series, and Lebron

(13:45):
attacked it and took a two one lead and had
Steph not gone wild in Game five in the fourth
quarter while Lebron was having a monster game, then maybe
they go down three too, maybe the Calves close him
out at home. That was another slim margin. The point
is is like, that's a huge advantage for Golden State

(14:06):
going into that next round. Regardless of how you feel,
Golden State fans probably feel like you're better, and you might.
In terms of talent, it's very close between Boston and
Golden State. I give Boston a slight edge and overall
talent both ways, but I want to pick Golden State
because I know that they understand what it takes and

(14:27):
right now with Boston, they have proven time and time
again that even though they understand the job, even though
they know what they have to do to win, too
often they check into the game and they don't do it.
And maybe it's because they haven't experienced enough loss. Maybe
it's because they haven't experienced enough pain. Who knows, Maybe

(14:49):
I'll be wrong, We'll I'll be interested to see. We're
gonna bring my guy car Carson on We're going to
dive into a whole bunch of additional stuff. It's good
to see your face again, Carson. Oh, Jason, say m
to you. Of course. All right, so we got five
big questions here for the Western Conference Finals, and we're
gonna start with this one. It's pretty straightforward. Obviously, you

(15:12):
picked the maps ahead of the series. They are now
sitting down three. Oh, it seems that all hope is
nearly lost given the historical president in the NBA. So, Jason,
how would you say that Dallas lost this series? So
obviously I was wrong about this series if I Golden
State fans nonstopping my mentions, talking reckless, sending me d

(15:33):
m s and things like that, even though I clearly
stated at the beginning that uh that I wasn't confident
in this series at all, Like I didn't have a
good feel for this series at all. I was just
basically taking a shot in the dark. And like I
felt very confident in Boston because there was some clear
basketball things I could follow to that conclusion, I just
clearly didn't appropriately factor in their inexperience and there you know,

(15:56):
undisciplined nature in terms of their night to night approach. Um,
it is so let's talk the basketball, because forget, regardless
of what you think I was wrong. I picked Dallas
to win the series in six and they're probably gonna
get swept maybe in five. So where I think this
series went wrong for Dallas is a super interesting dynamic
that I've seen a handful of times in NBA history.

(16:16):
It's actually happened to Stephan Claite. It's actually a great
example of what I was just talking about. You know,
Dallas got really good shots through three games. They actually
won the shot quality score in game one and two,
which again I can't take that to the bank. It's
not worth anything, it's not worth points on the scoreboard.
But what it is is it's just an indicator of
your process, you know, Dallas. We knew coming into this
series that Dallas was going to pick on mismatches and

(16:40):
space the floor, and they were gonna get either wide
open threes or great matchups for their players to try
to score. Golden State clearly went with the strategy of
attempting to um of attempting to send multiple defenders to
the isolation guys, and they were willing to give up
the threes and pretty consistently throughout the series, Dallas just
hasn't been able knocked them down after for two rounds,

(17:02):
they did knock them down. And what was strangely appalling
to me, especially in game three, the only guys on
the roster that were rising up into shots with confidence.
And you can tell, you could tell by how close
the shots are. You could tell by the way they elevate,
you can tell by the follow through, and you can
tell by their body language. The only two guys that
were rising rising up confidently was Luke Chi and Spencer Dinwood.

(17:26):
Everyone else was terrified. And it reminded me once again
of the effect that Lebron had on the Warriors in
two thousand fift and the effect that the Celtics had
on Lebron in the late two thousand tents. You know,
this is a persistent pathway, the comfort of having been
there many times and understanding everything and having established success

(17:50):
versus being the new guy on the stage. And just
like Lebron, and like a sixty win Calves team lost
to an inferiors talented Boston Celtics team in two thousand ten,
and Lebron wasn't great either. Lebron's deserves a ton of
criticism for that. Series, but his role players all fell
apart two and a big part of that was there's

(18:11):
an aura that comes with the defending champion, someone that's
been their time and time again that's loaded with veteran players,
they bring a they bring like a psychological impact to
the arena because you know they're comfortable, and you know
they're confident, and it can get in your head if
you haven't been there before, and if you haven't you know,

(18:33):
been on that stage and you're not comfortable there, and
so again that happened. I thought Lebron had that same
psychological impact on Dallas or on Golden State in two
thousand fifteen in that series. I thought that was the
only reason it dragged out as long as it did.
And I thought a huge part of this was the
gold the Golden State dynasty and the aura that it's
that surrounds it, and the psychological impact that had on

(18:56):
wide open shooters to be terrified. You know, I wouldn't
be surprised that there's a little bit of trash talk
from Golden State in there, Draymond telling guys like, you're
scared to shoot. I wouldn't be surprised if there was
a bunch of that stuff going on. That is all
the psychological impact of being a champion. And then the
second biggest thing, and that where this series went off
the rails. We talked a lot about how Dallas doesn't

(19:17):
have a great defensive personnel. We don't have to get
into it again. During Phinney Smith and Reggie Bullock are
really the only two guys that are high end defensive
players in terms of their athleticism and build. Everyone else
was just competing, which is great, but there's a physical
limitation there. They played two very traditional basketball teams in
the first two rounds, the Utah Jazz and the Phoenix Suns.

(19:38):
High pick and roll, traditional spacing, not great personnel, right
in terms of drible creation, you know, the the Jazz
lacked the guys that could consistently get into the paint
outside of Donovan Mitchell. Right, and then we go to
Phoenix and with Chris Paul losing his aggression and Devin
Booker happening to get cold as a jump shooter, all

(19:58):
of a sudden, their offensive talent went down off a cliff.
You know. I blame that on Chris Paul's injury, but
as a result, they were able to set themselves up
in pretty traditional defensive coverages and nail those things down.
We did a whole thing about this when they won
Game seven. Like Dallas wasn't doing anything spectacular on defense,
they were just always in the right spots. They were
very disciplined, and they did the right thing and they

(20:19):
were able to shut down a good offense. Here's the problem.
Golden State was the first team that Dallas played in
this playoff run that truly spaced them out, that truly
made them cover a ton of ground on the perimeter.
It almost immediately they got exposed as a team that
had limited defensive personnel, particularly Luca, who were going to
get into in a little bit, but they had they

(20:40):
they had no ability to guard. And there one opportunity
to to win a game in this series, which was
Game two, and they had a huge lead. They came
out in the second half and gave up sixty eight points,
and if you watch the tape, their point of attack
defense was awful, their defensive rotations were awful. They were
exposed as a team that could defend when everything was
in structure, but as soon as they aproach to face

(21:01):
the team that took them out of structure, and put
them in a spaced out dribble drive attack environment. They
couldn't contain every anybody, so they completely fell apart on defense,
and then I thought psychologically they crumbled under the weight
of Golden State as open three point shooters. Next thing
you know, you gotta sweep and again Golden State is.
Golden State is on the verge of sweeping a team
that had the second best record in basketball since January one.

(21:24):
They're on the verge of sweeping a team that just
literally one uh four the last five games of the
series against the team that dominated the NBA regular season
this year. This was a very good Dallas Mavericks team
that Golden State dismantled. And I think those are the
reasons why I think the psychological point is a really
interesting and one and one that you don't often hear

(21:46):
people make. But when you talk about sort of the
basketball happenings, it feels to me like a theme of
what you're touching on with a lot of this is
versatility to an extent, when you talk about Dallas not
being able to guard in specific matchups and ABBO see
they're really limited in some ways by the fact they
don't have that true five when you're always playing small
ball with Powell or Cleb in that spot. They don't

(22:08):
have the same depth of shot creation. And when you
talk about a shot making laps like they've had in
this series where they're sub thirty from deep, they're creating
those good looks from three, but they don't really have
counters if those shots aren't falling, because they don't have
those guys who can attack off the bounce and get
their own shots and facilitate. Whereas the Warriors, it seems

(22:28):
like they have a plethora of options on any given night.
They do have more of that versatility in terms of
lineups and personnel. So I mean, how much of a
deciding factor is just that in the series that maybe
the Warriors you know, aren't necessarily the better team point blank,
but they're the more versatile team. Do you feel like
that was a big factor. Absolutely. I mean, this Warrior's

(22:52):
team has been damn good this year with Steph Curry
being kind of a shell of himself in terms of
his efficiency on his pull up three point shooting and
all the all of those little elements of his game.
You know, when Dallas is wide up in three point
shots started missing they didn't have another angle. And part
of this is like Dinwoodie and Brunson and some of
their limitations. Like so one of the I thought one
of the biggest problems in this series was the lack

(23:15):
of comfort that Jalen Brunson and Spencer didn't what he
have As pull up jump shooters, they both can and
when they have it going, they'll hunt that shot and
they'll knock it down when they have it going. But
you could tell both of them, for the most part
in this series, Golden State was playing off of them
and playing the drive and trying to bait them into

(23:35):
pull up jump shots, and they you could tell they
just didn't want to take them, whereas Luca absolutely does.
And so some of it is like some of it
is like for instance, it's because this model that Dallas built,
I think is super interesting and something that more teams
should try to replicate, which is you can maximize your
talent on your roster by organizing yourself in a way

(23:58):
that succeeds in the playoff environment. So for instance, like Dallas,
like Spencer didn't, Winni and Jalen Brunson or not all stars,
but you know what they are They're guys that have
one great skill, which is the ability to create their
own shot, right they can. They feel comfortable attacking mismatches.
So if you put them in a system or you
space the floor of the ton of shooting, which again
Dallas has shot like absolute crap in this series. But

(24:20):
they shot amazingly well through two rounds and that's been
the Lion's share of the way this team was constructed.
Everyone around them can shoot. Even the two guys that
didn't shoot well, that can't shoot, that we know can't shoot,
like Frank Nilkina and Josh Green, they're only playing because
Tim Hardwood juniors hurt. Like those minutes minutes are all
going to Tim Hardaway Jr. In the future, right, So
like they space the floor and they pick on mismatches.

(24:42):
That's proven to work. So there, there's there's some good
stuff there. The differences is like when you go back
to previous iterations of this team and where it failed,
it came down to shock creation talent. Last year the
l A Clippers Paul George was amazing, but it just
wasn't enough without Kauai for that whole thing to be
enough to get to the finals, right, go back two

(25:03):
years before that or three years before that to the
Rockets in two thousand eighteen. James Harden is not Luca
don Chech. He doesn't have versatility to the way he attacks.
So Golden States solved him. He was forced to just
basically take step back three towards and that series, and
I think you went like two for a third pain
in game seven, so like there was and then Chris
and then Chris Paul was out right. But there's in theory,

(25:26):
there's a version of this Dallas construct where you actually
get two really good shot creators, you know, basically a
healthy Chris Paul and a and a Luca type of archetype, right,
or even just in this arc, this Luca just bringing
another star of some kind. There's a version of this
dynamic that can work. I think it's just the three
the three previous times that we've tried this, it's been

(25:49):
inferior secondary creators next to Luca. It's been an injury
to Chris Paul, it's been an injury to Kawhi Leonard
that ended up derailing it. So as you touch on
just the structure and the identities of these teams, it
feels like a good opportunity to get to another key
factor in this series, and that is coaching, and specifically

(26:09):
it feels like Steve Kerr has kind of had a
chance to shine in this series. So just what have
you thought about how he's performed throughout the series and
how important has that been to the Warriors being where
they are right now. So I think Steve Kerr and
Eric Spoelstra have both clearly demonstrated that they are on
a tear by themselves above all the other coaches that

(26:31):
we've seen in this playoff run. You know, I'm gonna
focus on Steve Kerr because for unfortunately for Erik Spoelstra,
he just doesn't have enough talent for it to really matter.
But both Spoelstra and Kerr have put on a clinic
in this playoff run of mixing up coverages. And I
thought this move from Golden State was a huge part

(26:55):
of why Dallas never got comfortable. When you see the
same look every single time, you get accustomed to how
to attack it. I think this is one of the
you know, this is is one of those things that
you'll see sometimes when you're watching Lebron when he's really
in a flow, he'll work his way down the floor
every time and just do the exact same thing and

(27:16):
just start picking you apart because he's just he's trying
to bait you into one thing or another. He's so
familiar with your look that he's just one step ahead
of you all the time. One of the easiest ways
to counter that is to make it so that you're
never facing the same look more than a handful of
times in a row. D Steve Kerr not just mixing
in zone, but mixing in different kinds of zone. Like

(27:38):
imagine you're a man, you're going against some man to
man coverage and Luca breaks you down, gets into lane,
makes a tough floater, comes down. The next time they
help out of the corner, he kicks to Max clib
makes the three scored two times in a row. You
got and then you come down and it's a two
three zone and you're like, okay, well what do we get? Okay,
everyone get to your right spots. Okay, at the time

(28:00):
we've identified it's a two three zone and got to
our spacing, it's already twelve seconds on the shot clock.
Now we're throwing two or three swing passes and jacking
up a three right, Like, it's just it. It changes
the way you have to attack on a possession by
possession basis. And then it's like, okay, we go against
the zone twice. We got a two decent three point.
Looks Luca is doing it by screening the top man

(28:22):
of the zone and getting to the elbow and making kickouts.
Oh wait, now it's a box in one. So even
if you screen the guy that's guarding Luca, the other
guy in the zones right there. So it's like, what
do you do? Like the the the the way that
Steve Kerr consistently mixed up coverages in this series to
constantly keep Dallas off balance. That is all also part

(28:44):
of how a team. That's how guys are not confident
when they're pulling up for shots. That's how guys get
out of a rhythm and flow. That's how you get
players to play beneath their personal ceiling is by keeping
them off balance and keeping them uncomfortable. And I think
you know again, it's you. It's are to factor in
in a lot of cases because there aren't enough coaches
like this that are this good. But I think I

(29:06):
think Eric Spoilstra and Steve Kerr both of them have
just been putting on clinics in terms of defensive scheming
and keeping teams off balance. But with Steve Kerr in
this case, I think he took a series that I
thought was a coin flip. And again, there's a lot
of elements to this, but one of the big elements
with Steve Kerr and him doing that as a huge
part of why the series is gonna be over fast?

(29:27):
Do you think Kerr might be the most underappreciated coach ever? Dare?
I say that's super interesting because the amount of talent.
I mean, look when you when we look at all
these coaches to NBA history, it's easy to underappreciate them
when we factor in the talent, right, like Greg Popovich,
It's like, oh yeah, Tim duncan Tony Parker manage nobly

(29:49):
at Kawhi Leonard, You had David Robinson, all this kind
of stuff, Right, you got to Steve Kerr and all
the talent he's played with. We go to Phil Jackson
and all the talent he's coached, all the talent that
pat Riley is co and it's easy to get dissuaded
by the talent. But you know, for me, personally, I
feel like he's underappreciated. But a huge part of that
is I follow a lot of Warriors fans, and Warriors

(30:09):
fans complain about Steve Kerr NonStop. Now, the people that
I trust that cover the Warriors, the people that really
cover them from an unbiased perspective, will tell you that
Steve Kerr has evolved a lot. So there was some
stubbornness in the past that he's gone past that he's
gotten past, particularly with line up structure and being more

(30:29):
willing to embrace offensive creation over defensive talent. You know,
Steve Kerr. Their rotations have been the biggest thing that
that UH that Golden State Warriors fans have complained about
with Kurr over the years, but he has gotten better
and most importantly, like we the it's an interesting mix
of a really smart basketball coach and guys that are

(30:51):
willing to buy in because, like you know, we're looking
at a Lakers head coaching situation here where they're choosing
between Terry Stotts and Darvin Ham and UH and Kenny Atkinson.
And like I like Kenny Atkinson a lot in terms
of like his offensive organization and his ability to to
coach a team on offense. But like, I just think

(31:11):
Lebron and a D are gonna roll their eyes at
that guy. So like for a guy like for guys
like Lebron and na D, I think they need someone
like Darvin Hamm who's more of like a former player
recently in the league, tough guy, so at least they
can convince him to play hard on defense. Right, But like,
what helps so much is you've got Steve Kerr or
excuse me, Steve Stephan Curry, who's arguably the most coachable

(31:34):
star that we have in this league. Draymond Green, very coachable.
They're all so bought in, and they have such a
respect for cur that it gives him an opportunity to
actually weaponize what he's good at, which is the excess
and knows. And there are so many teams around the
league that don't even have that opportunity because it egos,
you know, Like I I like, literally, Lebron tuned out
Frank Vogel and he's the championship winning coach. Lebron tuned

(31:56):
out David Blatt, and he obviously David Black came up.
There's a lot of stuff with David Blatt, but Lebron
tuned him out too, and it's just one of those
things where, like I think it's an interesting mix of
super coachable superstar and really smart coach and the their
ability to lean on each other and the way that
that can lead to success. Yeah, I think that from

(32:18):
my perspective, Kurr does feel underappreciate, and you make a
good point about the coach ability with Steph. I do
wonder though further down. Obviously step so important to establishing
a culture, but how would Draymond respond to a coach
that he thinks is kind of a dunce. Yeah, I
don't know that he would be as fully committed and trusting,
and you know, there might be some issues that I

(32:39):
can imagine that, but I think Kerr really does blend
that schematic intelligence on both ends. Right. You talked about
the defensive ingenuity in this series, but I think broadly,
you know, people would point to just the sort of
motion offense the Warriors of often run and emphasizing off
ball movement and empowering Steph, putting him off ball more
instead of having him be like the volume, pick and
roll guy that he was with Mark Jackson. He's just

(33:02):
done so many things in terms of basketball schematics, he
has I think been a really impressive leader of men
and communicator, and there really isn't a flaw on his resume.
I mean, they had a down year when everybody on
the team was hurt. Other than that, they've won at
the highest level. Last year they were still a playoff
caliber team obviously was such a decimated roster. So he

(33:22):
doesn't have the decades of winning that you know, like
most top five coaches of all time or what have
you do. But his winning in the time that he
has been there and everything he's done has been so
immensely impressive. And I just feel like people are so
quick to say, oh, well, the dynasty was inevitable, the
talent was so overwhelming, but you know, they took a
jump from a fifty one win team to a sixty

(33:43):
seven win team and then a seventy three win team,
and they did all that without obviously adding Kevin Durant.
I think Steve Kerr is a huge part of that.
So I think my answer to the question that I
posed might very well be yes. I think ker is
a brilliant, brilliant coach, and sometimes people are a bit
quick to forget that. The managing of personalities is something
people constantly gloss over, like when you look at you know,

(34:06):
having to bench David Lee. It was very successful offensive
forward to bring in a guy like Draymond Green. Empowering
Draymond Green to be what he is, which is a
volatile basketball player, but understanding that that volatility is a
part of what makes him great, and understanding that if

(34:26):
you take that away from him, you take away part
of his greatness. The whole k D saga and all
the drama there and the blow up with Draymond, the
navigating of the egos with andre I Guadala and and helping,
you know, partnering with him to come off the bench
to empower Harrison Barnes and you know, working with the
ascent of Jordan's pool and navigating that with a backcourt

(34:50):
that's loaded, and easing him into a bench role in
a playoff run. But because your star is willing to
do something like it's it's never as easy as it looks,
and the personalities are always so much more complicated than
you think. You know, I I played on a team
when I was at Arizona Christian University that was unbelievably
stacked with talent. Beat a Division one school, but it

(35:13):
was an n A school. But we beat a Division
one school. While I was there, we started thirteen and oh,
we were top five in the nation. We were one
of the best teams in all of an ai A
basketball And like, we had eleven dudes that all deserved
to play, and in the Golden State has that same issue.
Juantas Kono Anderson is a rotation level NBA player, Damian

(35:34):
Lee is a rotation level NBA player. These are all
guys that deserve to play. Garry Payton Jr. When he
comes back into this mix, these are all very good
basketball players that deserve to play, and he's navigating that
get has them all bought in it. It's always so
much more complicated than people think. That team that I referenced,

(35:54):
you know, we we didn't have any major catastrophes, but
there was It was a weird culture throughout the whole
year because I guess what, the guys in that eleven
that didn't get to play, they had issues, you know,
they had issues with the whole dynamic, date, issues with
the coaching staff, and it's just it's so much more
complicated than people think. And and when you see when
from the outside it looks smooth, that's that's the indicator

(36:19):
that they're handling things well in house. Whereas you look
at you look at some of these other teams like
the Lakers, and you're having you know, Russell Westbrook go
into the press conference talking about how he deserves to start,
he deserves to close games like it's it's it's interesting
to see the juxtaposition there. Absolutely, let's pivot here to

(36:40):
the MAVs because it does feel like they're sort of
entering how do we improve going forward mode? Obviously Shirley
still committed to the series, but like they're kinda knocking
on Deaktor at this point. And Luca came out and
had a quote after Game three just talking about how
he says something along the lines of, I'm twenty three,
I'm still learning. You know, there's a lot of stuff
that I'm still figuring out and needs get better at.

(37:00):
So as remarkable as he has been throughout a majority
of this postseason run, where does he need to go
from here? So subplot of this series was one of
the big reasons why I thought Dallas would win. You know,
in my again, it was his coin flip. The one

(37:20):
of the reasons why I leaned slightly towards Dallas was
I thought Dallas was a better player than Stuff based
on what had happened during this regular season Steph massive
shooting decline in terms of his percentages, and you know
Luca's dominant playoff run up to this point, Steph was
way better than him through three games. I don't I
don't give a damn about the forty point nights. Watch

(37:43):
the tape, just unbelievably horrific on defense, like horrific. He
is the lead cause of their defensive issues right now. Now,
step is Steph some all defense player now, but he
is a very good defensive player who competes like crazy,
who sets the tone for the rest of his team.

(38:04):
And there wasn't nearly enough of a chasm offensively between
those two guys in order to justify any like I
don't think there's any case for Luca being the best
player in this series. Steph dusted him. Steph resoundingly demonstrated
that he is very much better than Luca right now,
and so so where does Luca need to go from here?

(38:25):
Like a couple of things, when we've been. We've been
down this stroad before. He has to find a way too,
at the very least, not be a liability defensively. His
foot speed will never be great, He'll never be a
dominant defensive player. But what he makes up what he
lacks in foot speed he does have in size and strength. Right, So,
in theory, if he got into his peak physical condition,

(38:48):
there's a version of Luca that can be a very
good positional defender, meaning he can guard bigger wings that
play with power, he can make the average defensive rotations,
he can help as a back line defender at the rim.
There's no reason why he can do those things. Is
he gonna be able to contain quick guards, No, that's
never gonna happen. But Steff's also never gonna be able
to guard big wings. Like that's the bottom line is

(39:09):
is like there there's a certain limitation that that those
guys have. But Steff is the example of reaching his
own personal ceiling defensively, and Luca is an example of
a guy who hasn't even attempted to do that yet
on the offensive end. You know, do I think Luca
could stand to polish some things up. Yeah, but I
mean those are He's already arguably the best offensive engine

(39:30):
in the NBA right now. So I I I think
that the number one thing that Luca has to figure
out is figuring out how to be a more of
an impact player on the defensive end of the floor.
He just simply has to. And then the just the
the other benefits that come from physical conditioning and and
fighting off a fatigue in a playoff series, and you know,
he he I thought that quote was really interesting. It
was it wasn't excuses, but it kind of felt like

(39:54):
back off, guys, I'm twenty two, like the that's the
vibe I got from that quote, and and I get that.
But you know what I like to have heard is
I like, I'm gonna go into this season and get
in the best shape of my life and I plan
on competing on the defensive end of the level I didn't,
you know, I'd love to hear that. If that makes sense.

(40:15):
That's interesting. I also do think you could kind of
go either way with it in the sense that I mean,
he is four years deep into his experience in the
league right like, theoretically he's not all that close to
his peak, and in this time, you know, he's carried
the team to three playoff appearances. Out of the years
that he's been in the playoffs, he's been number two,
number one, and number one in points per game. And

(40:37):
we know what he does as a playmaker too, So
I'm with you, he has no excuse for not getting
into peak condition Like that is so glaringly the thing
in terms of basketball skill as a score or playmaker offensively,
what do you really point to, right? I mean, he's
added the post game that was kind of missing earlier.
The step back is so refined, like his intermediate game

(40:57):
overall is improved. It's like he's done so much much.
There's no excuse. But he is also twenty three, and
I'm sure that there is still stuff that he's learning.
But you're right, when there's a glaring thing you can
point to and say, well, Luca, you can learn, how
do you know, maybe put down the doughnuts a little bit,
you know, maybe hit the condition a little bit harder.
Then that's also beer. Yeah, I mean, you know, maybe,

(41:19):
as we talked about, you don't need to go out
for the pregame beers as much. I don't know. Yeah,
there's there's there's did you know, there's a beer that's
brooding the Rocky Mountain stream. It's a little bit lighter.
I think he might be worth trying. I'm curious. I'm curious, Carson.
Do you did you think that Steph was the best
player in this series? Yes, I'm with you, But let
me ask you this. I agree with you. In the

(41:42):
vacuum that is this series, are you now like convinced
that Steph is the better basketball player overall? If he wasn't,
Luca would have played better. Like, I mean, I'm with you,
I'm with you on everything. He's twenty two, he's not
even in his prime yet. Yeah, all that's true. What
that just means that steps better right now? You know

(42:02):
what I mean? Like, do I want Steph or Luca
for the next five years? Yeah, of course I want Luca.
But my point is is, like, right now, which is
all that matters? Because the trophy is four five wins
away for Golden State, you know, like the right now,
in this current predicament, Steph is clearly better. I I
actually think like, and again we're gonna talk to snow

(42:23):
Globe later. The snow Globe, I just mean all the
top players in the league being shook up. I think
Steph has I think I don't think Steph is even
remotely capable of the impact that jan has had in
that Boston series. I've never seen anything like that, Like
a team literally sending three guys at him every possession
and he's averaged thirty four Like that was insane. So
I think Janice is the best player in the league

(42:45):
on a tier by himself. But I think Steph has
a pretty clear case right now to be number two.
And and that is wild considering where he was during
the regular season. But tell me one player Carson that
you think has made a better case to be the
second best player in the world right now. Nicole here

(43:08):
would be my honest pick, because here's the thing. I
completely agree the level step has been at in this
series where his shot making has been blazing. I mean,
he's been forty eight percent from deep right. It's been
like vintage Steph in that respect. But I just don't
know that the totality of his production this year is
quite there. So I don't know that I would say
I think he's a better basketball player than Luca right now, because,

(43:30):
as we talked about, I mean, Luca's control of the game,
his direct imposition of his will as a score and playmaker,
his volume there, it's just so overwhelming. And there have
been times with step this year where it's just he
simply doesn't dominate the game offensively and will always have
the gravity impact and whatnot, but there was a drop

(43:50):
in production in that respect. So I don't know if
I want to totally flip my position on that based
on the fact that in his head to head matchup,
yes at the highest stakes and yes, and actual playoff
basketball where it matters most and it tells you the
most about a guy, also only a few games sample,
I don't know that I'm ready to flip on that.
I think Steph does have a case for second best player.
I think last year he made that abundantly clear, and

(44:12):
I don't know that we had enough evidence this year
to say like, oh, he can't be that player again.
But he wasn't that player for a lot of this year.
So I don't know if I'm as decisive as you
are in that respect, And I honestly might still be
Team Luca. The defense is brutal. There are stretches where
he's more engaged and it's like, Okay, it's sort of

(44:34):
passable and when he's doing that, But I just think
that the effort hasn't been consistent enough and there's probably
an element of fatigue with the offensive load there. But
I think Steff does certainly make a case. I'm I'm
with you there, but I don't think it's as clear
in my opinion. So you mentioned the small sample size thing.
I think that's a huge part of this. Like Steph

(44:55):
understands the stakes. He understands that, Hey, like if I
have a if I have a fourteen point lead in
the middle of the third quarter on the road in
Game two of a playoff series, I can't afford to
mail it in on defense because I might blow it
and now I'm down two oh in the series. That's
what happened to Luca. Luca. I shared all the tape.

(45:16):
You guys can see. It's on my Twitter feed. Yeah,
like literally, Luca was a traffic cone in that second
half against the Warriors in Game two and blew their
one opportunity to win one of these three games. It's
just so my thing is, like, I so to be
clear when I value this stuff. I think you. I
think you, Carson, And I'm not saying you're wrong. It's

(45:38):
just different between the way you and I look at this.
You you place more value value in that regular season engine,
and there there's a good case for that seeding is important.
This playoff run has been a great demonstration of the
importance of seatings. Just ask Milwaukee, you know, but the
reality is is like the uh when it when it
comes down to it, it's usually a handful of aimes

(46:00):
that determines these outcomes. And having that that, I think
that is one of Steph's legs up is experience understanding
the stakes and being at his very best when he
needs to be at his very best. But I agree,
I agree to disagree with Carson. I'm cool with that. Yeah.
I think also I might have a bit more of
an offensive slant in terms of evaluating guys, and you know,

(46:23):
like you said, prioritizing that singular offensive engine and letting
some of the defensive possible roots for exploitation pass a
little bit more, which you know, maybe I shouldn't. I
don't know. I'll sit down this office. I can't really
think about some stuff. Okay, we've got a donation here.
Shout out Jeremiah. He's got a question in the chat

(46:44):
Jason is Andrew Wiggins going to Harrison Barnes the finals.
He says, no disrespect intended, but Warrior fans feel a
certain way about Barnes going cold in sixteen. What do
you think? So it certainly possible the you know, but
Austin is I'm leaning Golden State right now in a
potential Golden State Boston matchup. I'll save my pick until

(47:06):
we actually get to the point where both of the
conference final serieses are over. But I do think we're
more We're extremely likely to get that matchup, which is
I think a super interesting matchup between two of the
biggest franchises in the NBA. We shouldn't be I mean,
we're we're static about that around here, so I'm very
stoked for it. But I think defense that Boston's defense

(47:29):
is gonna put Golden State in some interesting nds um
I would imagine because Luca Luca was guarding Wiggins, and
it was clearly a strategy with Golden State from the
start of this series to have Andrew be super aggressive
whenever he saw an opportunity to attack Luca. Boston just

(47:51):
doesn't provide you that type of matchup flexibility, So I
think some of the aggression will be taken away, which
means will turn Andrew into a guy that's almost strictly
attacking closeouts and spotting up. And I mean the Harrison
Barnes thing, Like, I get it. He he wasn't making

(48:11):
his open shots, and that could be problematic, but I
mean they were all good looks and and some sometimes
they just don't go in. I mean talk about small
sample size, like that's how it goes. Like in a
small sample size, like sometimes you get five wide open
corner threason, maybe you only make one of them, you know,
And that's just how it goes. But as long as
Andrew Wiggins brings what he brings on the defensive end
of the floor, as long as he picks up Tatum
full court and bothers him as much as humanly possible,

(48:34):
then you know, honestly, I think that his impact and
in that role is pretty dependable, you know what I mean.
And Golden State, you know, the other interesting the other
interesting thing to Carson is this Golden State team is
less reliant on three point shooting then the two thousand
and sixteen Warriors. This is a Golden State team that

(48:55):
weaponizes the threat of their three point shooting to get
into the paint. And I think I think Andrew Wiggins,
like you demonstrated with his vicious dunk on Luca last night,
like you don't if you're not making your threes, just
a further attack the close out, you know, like keep
There's there's nothing wrong with catching when you're wide open

(49:15):
and just barreling into the lane and kicking out to
the next shooters. So I think there's I think they
have a little bit. I think Golden State in general
just says a little bit more of an understanding of
how to use guys that go cold from the perimeter.
But I mean Andrew Wiggins could also just be dead
eye knocking down wide open shots. So is he gonna
be Harris and Barnes? I don't know, my guests, Is
he'll be more impactful? Yeah? I do think you make

(49:37):
a very astute point about the specific matchup, because it
does feel like a lot of the swing element with
Wiggins is okay, Well, is he just going to be
knocking down open looks, attack and closeouts? Is he going
to be more assertive and like taking some of the
tough midrange pull up stuff that you don't love from him,
or is he going to be assertive and actually attacking
mismatches and weaponizing his size and athleticism and all that,

(50:00):
And those are kind of the different versions you get. Regardless,
his floor, you know, because of his defensive impact, I
think is just higher than what Barnes was at that time,
and certainly higher than I think we expected from Andrew
Wiggins before he got to Golden State. But there is
always that swing element with him because his mindset changes
as much as anything. It feels like. But I will say,

(50:20):
I mean Harrison Barnes was as bad in that series
as like any significant player has been in a series
that I can remember my life. Nine in a game,
thirty five percent from the field, every big spot, just clanging.
So if Wiggins does that, I don't think his NBA
legacy will ever be redeemed like that unfortunately, will stick
with him forever, I think Andrew. I think Andrews also

(50:44):
like a lot more athletic than Harrison Barnes was. Harrison
Barnes was a great vertical athlete that had great link,
but Harrison Barnes did not have that twitchy like quick
first step, dynamic explosiveness that that Andrew Wiggins has, which
I think makes him more impactful attacking closeouts and things
along those lines. But yeah, I mean, it's an interesting question.

(51:05):
That's a super interesting series and I can't wait to
take a deep dive into it once we get to
that point. All right, Well, before we do that, let's
do one last question here about the MAVs. Because we
talked about what Luca can do individually. When it comes
to the broader scope of their team building. Do you
think Dallas needs another star? Jason Absolutely. And it's gonna

(51:28):
be the issue here with the Brunson thing, is I
think you have to resign him because of the asset
like Jalen Is would be valuable to somebody else in
a way. I mean, and he was great. I thought
he was pretty damn good in this playoff run. But
to me, it's a question of talent. And when you
look at Lebron and Anthony Davis coming back with the

(51:51):
Lakers next year, Kauai and Paul George coming back with
the Clippers next year, Nicola Yokich with Jamal Murray and
Michael Porter Jr. Coming back with the Nuggets next year,
and you really piece all of this together, not to
mention the Eastern Conference, Like, you have to think the
Sixers are gonna be a lot more organized next year,
just with a full training camp to really implement their system.

(52:11):
You have to think that the Milwaukee Bucks understand now
that they don't have enough talent, They're gonna make a move.
The top of the league is just going to continue
to get I mean, Luca is gonna get better as
a basketball player, you know, like Janice could get better
as a basketball player. Like the teams you're gonna have
to go through to get to this point, the league
is so stacked. I think at this point, wheeling Luca

(52:31):
out there to be the solo star is is akin
to basketball playoffs suicide. Like you're just you're you're you know,
you don't have the firepower, you know. And again like
I see, I see the big debate taking place right
now between Warriors fans and and all these people on
Twitter about like does Luca have enough help? Does Luca
have enough help? Look, Steph outplayed Luca, to be clear,

(52:52):
but also Luca was on the less talented team. The
reason why I thought that they might win is I
thought Dallas's system, which I think is very smartly put together.
We just talked about that earlier, in conjunction with Luca
being better than Stuff would be enough to swing it.
And here's the thing. It turns out that all those
guys that shot really well suddenly didn't shoot well, which
we talked about, and Luca was proven to be not

(53:12):
as good at basketball as Stuff was. Right, So at
a certain point, firepower did become an issue in this series.
So if your Dallas, you have to understand that and
recognize that, you know, probably the most realistic outcome there
as you resigned Jalen Brunson, you find some way to
accumulate as many draft picks as possible, and you'd find
a way to flip Bronson and picks or Bronson din

(53:36):
what he picks, or you know, some combination of assets
to a disgruntled star and bring someone in and then
basically continue the same system. Because the system for Dallas
is perfect. They just need one more big forward that
can consistently create his own shot in space before it's
really that simple. Al Right, guys, that is all I
have for you tonight. I sincerely appreciate your support. As always.
Couple quick notes, remember to like this video and subscribe

(53:59):
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(54:21):
sincerely appreciate you guys rocking with the show. We will
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