September 5, 2025 • 54 mins
Jason answers mailbag questions from fans on topics including more LeBron James vs. Steph Curry "impact" debate for their respective teams, the Los Angeles Lakers and Golden State Warriors. He also discusses how many points Michael Jordan would average if he played for the Chicago Bulls in the modern NBA era, who would win a 1-on-1 matchup between Houston Rockets star Kevin Durant and Los Angeles Clippers star Kawhi Leonard, and more.
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Speaker 1 (00:01):
The volume. All right, welcome to Hoops Tonight. You're at
the volume.
Speaker 2 (00:17):
Happy Friday, everybody, hopeful you guys are having a great
end to your week.
Speaker 1 (00:20):
It is mail bag day.
Speaker 2 (00:22):
We have all sorts of super interesting questions to get into.
Would Michael Jordan average forty five points per game in
today's NBA? Who would win a one on one between
KD and Kawhi? Some more, debate over the lebron and
the step ranking. All sorts of interesting stuff to get into.
You guys, owe the joke before we get started. Subscribe
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(00:43):
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Make sure you guys follow us over there, and then,
last but not least, if you want to get questions
into these mail bags, go to our full episodes. Go
(01:03):
to the comments right mail bag with the colon, write
in your comment, your question, and we'll get to them
on our mail bags throughout the remainder of the summer.
All right, let's talk some basketball. First question, strongly disagreeing
with the Steph over Lebron ranking. The Warriors were barely
five hundred before the Jimmy trade, and Lebron was like
seven to one in games without Luca and AD. I
(01:25):
understand sample size is different, but Warriors without Jimmy were
still a complete roster, but Lebron without a co star
was a significantly more InCom was with a significantly more
incomplete team. Lebron is still more reliable than Steph when
it comes to availability, and was showed and showed a
higher peak than Steph last season. And all this is
ignoring the multiple single digit scoring nights from Steph last season.
(01:48):
I think you were doing the exact same thing that
many analysts on TV do, expecting Lebron to fall off
instead of grading him based on what we were actually
seeing on the court from him. Major fan of the
show and really appreciate how well thought it your takestar.
Thank you for supporting the show. A lot of like
individual things that I want to kind of get into there,
because there are things that you said that I agree with,
and there are things that you said that I disagree with,
(02:09):
and I think that some of them are less relevant
to this discussion than others. So a couple things to
kind of go piecemeal through some of the specific things
I disagree with the performance of the team. So, Stephan,
the Warriors being below five hundred, that roster was extremely limited.
Off the top, they had a depth of quality end
of the bench role player talent in the sense that
(02:31):
they had fourteen fifteen guys that they could play rotation minutes.
But in terms of top end talent, going from Steph
to you know, Andrew Wiggins and Buddy Healed and Draymond
Green to getting rid of Andrew Wiggins and obviously Jimmy
Butler comes in the equation, they immediately start kicking ass.
I don't really care to look at a two players
(02:53):
and how they rank or compare with each other when
the rosters are so incredibly different. So, for instance, like
all you got to do if you're a STEPH fan
is go, well, look, in twenty twenty two, we won
the title and the Lakers missed the playoffs. Well, it's like, yeah, that.
I don't think that Warriors roster was a world beater
by any means, but it certainly was a hell of
a lot better roster than the Russell Westbrook catastrophe roster
(03:15):
that that group struggled with, especially when Anthony Davis went
down with injury. Similarly, now I do think Lebron, Austin Reeves,
Ruwiy Hatcha Mura, obviously, Anthony Davis to start the year,
Luka Doncic later in the year, it is better basketball team, guys,
it's better basketball team. They were the three seed in
the Western Conference. Now, so that's going to naturally result
(03:37):
in differences in team records, regardless of the difference in
the way that Lebron and Steph were playing. Now, let's
get into some of the specifics that you said. You
said Lebron reached a higher peak than Steph last season.
Speaker 1 (03:48):
I agree.
Speaker 2 (03:49):
I thought Steph got I thought Steph was really good
down the stretch of the season. But that little stretch
there in February from Lebron was one of the best
stretches from any player in the league last year. Happened
to coincide with a stretch when Anthony Davis was out
and Luka Doncic was out. So it was perfect timing
for the Lakers because Lebron hit his absolute peak when
(04:10):
they absolutely needed him to, and they were able to
rattle off some wins. But if you look at the
totality of the season, I do think that Steph has
more value right now as an advantage creator than Lebron.
I want to dive a little bit further into this
concept because you even said in your question all of
this is ignoring the multiple single digit scoring nights from
(04:31):
Steph last season. I still believe that Steph has an
advantage creation element to him that Lebron has much less
so to this point in his career. So or at
this point in his career, when Lebron was it in
more of his physical prime, he was able to break
the defense down more. What does that mean? What does
(04:51):
it mean to break the defense down? When the defense
is loaded up, so best perimeter defender on you, All
the helpside is looking at you, all the game planning
is built on how to guard you. You are now
breaking the defense to where somebody is wide open that
probably shouldn't be. I don't mean like, oh, this guy
(05:11):
standing wide open because no one thinks he can shoot.
I mean like you have broken the defense. Like you,
Lebron gets into a post up and gets a switch
that he likes and breaks it down into the middle
of the paint, draws a triple team and ruy Hatramura's
wide open in the right corner. That's breaking the defense down.
(05:33):
Right Steph Curry running off of an off ball screen
or an on ball screen and drawing two to the ball,
so that now there's a four on three materializing. That's
breaking the defense down. As Lebron has gotten older, it's
been more difficult for him to do that. He's not
as capable of bullying his way to the basket as
well as he used to when his legs were stronger
(05:55):
and had more pop to them. Obviously the dribble drive pop.
We talked about it in the one on one numbers
when we were covering Lebron in the rankings. When Lebron
can break the defense down methodically, whether it's there's a
guard that he can attack through the post on a switch,
or if it's like a specific team that can't switch
his ball screens so that he can get downhill, Lebron
(06:15):
is good. Like we talked about he was a very
good pick and role player last year. That was a
big thing that carried him to being a good half
court initiator last year. But Lebron has gone from being
what he used to be, which was the one of
the top two or three offensive engines in the NBA
every single year for twenty years or eighteen nineteen years.
He's gone from that to being like a second or
(06:38):
third tier offensive engine.
Speaker 1 (06:39):
Now.
Speaker 2 (06:40):
His ability to break the defense down isn't the same
as it used to be. No shame in that he's
literally going to be forty one years old this season,
right Steph Curry up through this to this point, and
we'll see how long he can maintain it, because now
he's entering into those years where things can start to
slow down. But up to this point with Steph because
(07:00):
of his shooting ability, because the league still reacts to
him as though he is prime Steph Curry, and until
that changes, he'll still be a great offensive engine. As
long as he's out there on the floor and teams
are guarding him like he's Steph Curry, he has this
element of advantage creation, the ability to break the defense
(07:21):
down to consistently get these really nice openings that the
team can capitalize on. And that's the thing, like we
talked about it. Yeah, like for Steph to be the
top one of the top tier guys, he needs to
combine his advantage creation with scoring and we covered that
in this Steph video. But as far as like his
night to night impact, there's a reason why guys, you
(07:44):
said they were under five hundred or barely five hundred
before the Jimmy trade. You talk about them fighting up
out of the play in tournament this year, think about
some of the stats that we shared from that that
is because of the roster. The roster had severe limitation.
They didn't bring a secondary star until the home stretch,
at which point they looked great. But if you actually
(08:05):
zoom out from the season for the entirety of the season,
according to Cleaning the Glass, despite playing with Andrew Wiggins
and Buddy Healed as his best offensive supporting talent for
the two thirds of the season, the Warriors posted a
one twenty offensive rating with Steph on the floor. So, like,
(08:27):
let's get into this. I have Steph at six, I
have Lebron at eight. Why do I still have Steph
over Lebron? Even though Lebron has been playing really well,
hit a higher short term ceiling during that February stretch
this year. And you know, obviously, you guys know how
I feel about Lebron all time, and you guys know
(08:48):
how I feel about Lebron when he was in his
prime versus Steth. He's not in his prime anymore.
Speaker 1 (08:52):
Guys like I root for the Lakers.
Speaker 2 (08:54):
Anybody who's ever rooted, like seriously rooted for a basketball
team can really get an honest feel for what it's
like watching them because you feel the pain of loss, right.
I have watched Lebron at this phase in his career
struggle to break the defense down where they'll have like
extended stretches where they can't score. And I know we've
(09:16):
seen that with the Warriors, but when I watch it
with the Warriors, especially when you look at the roster,
like guys, the Lakers had extended stretches last year where
they were bad on offense despite having Austin Reeves, ruey
Hatramura Lebron. And it's because Austin Reeves as good as
he is, if you switch and you keep a good
(09:37):
athlete on him, he can struggle to actually break the defense.
Speaker 1 (09:41):
Down.
Speaker 2 (09:42):
Similarly, Lebron, if you can switch big athletic players onto
him and not allow him to use ball screens in
the traditional sense, he can have difficulty breaking the defense down.
Steph Curry at this phase of his career is better
than Lebron by a pretty decent margin at breaking the
(10:04):
defense down. He took a roster that was utterly devoid
of offensive talent and hung a one twenty offensive rating.
Last year, Lebron had a brief stretch where everything came
together for him physically mentally, and you know what, he
kicked everyone's ass for a couple of for like five
weeks or so, right, And that's a feather in his cap.
(10:24):
But when I look at the totality of the last
couple of years, the majority of the time he's been
a second tier offensive engine. I think right now Steph
is the third best guy in the league behind Luka
and Jokic still to this day at breaking the defense
down at consistently through the threat of his shooting and
(10:45):
running around, forcing teams to overreact to him so that
people are open. And once you have open guys, offense flows.
That's why they put up a one to twenty offensive rating.
It's not about anything to do with the Lebron Stephed
debit in the big picture, it's just for the future.
Now we'll see Steph might next year lose a step
(11:08):
not be as capable of beating defenses, start facing lesser coverages,
and all of a sudden, his value as an offensive
engine might decrease. I'm just saying through to the point.
When he got hurt last year, I still felt like
teams regarding him like he was Steph Curry, and he
was still breaking the defense down like Steph Curry, and
he was still putting up monster offensive ratings first team
(11:29):
like Steph Curry. There's no shame in that he's considerably
younger than Lebron. Even though he's old, He's considerably younger
than Lebron. It's actually a good time. I go to
hop forward to a different question because I got one
from you guys having to do with the having to
do with the age piece of it and durability. Here
(11:50):
it is, how is Steph's longevity even remotely comparable to
Lebron when Lebron played twenty four thousand more minutes. Here's
the thing. I don't mean it's comparable in the sense
that no one's gonna go out and make an argument
that Steph has a more impressive longevity case than Lebron.
That would be stupid. Lebron has the best longevity case
(12:12):
in all of in all of NBA history. Even when
you look at Kareem, he just wasn't able to maintain
the level of play that Lebron has been at. Lebron
just got named second Team All NBA in his twenty
second season. Lebron's the goat to certainly the goat of longevity,
and I would argue that's one of the biggest feathers
in his in his goat cap right. What I meant
(12:36):
when I'm bringing up Steph's longevity has to do with
the fact that he's a small guard. One of the
reasons why Lebron can play this many minutes and still
be this impactful is that, yes, he's taking care of
his body, but he's also six foot nine, two hundred
and sixty pounds, like just like really naturally gifted athletically,
(12:57):
literally one of the greatest athletes to ever set foot
on the play, So it's easier for him to rely
on his physical size and strength as he ages in
a way that smaller players can't. Steph is literally a
foot speed, reliant guard, and so I do think it's impressive.
(13:17):
I'm not saying that he's Lebron. I'm just saying I
think it's impressive that over the course of this this
phase of his career and is entering into his late thirties,
like post thirty five, that Steph is still able to
break defenses down the way he does, that he's still
able to score as effectively as he does. Like, I
think stephs longevity is uniquely impressive among small guards. I
(13:44):
recently saw where Tylu said Michael Jordan would average forty
five points in today's NBA. This is a familiar theme
We've all heard. Previous NBA Hall of Fame players would
average forty or fifty points in today's NBA. If it's
not MJ, it's Alan Iverson or some other guard. I
think this is ridiculous. MJ took thirty two percent of
his team shots the year he averaged thirty seven points
(14:04):
per game. Today's leading scorers take about twenty four percent
of their team shots. If Kevin Durant, Lebron, James, or
Giannis took thirty two percent of their team shots. I'm
sure they would average forty points too, but today's NBA
doesn't lend to that possibility. Defenses are too advanced to
allow that players today are way too skilled. What are
your thoughts? Love your content and keep up the awesome analysis.
Thank you so much for the kind words. That was
(14:25):
a really well laid out case. I mean, guys, you
don't need to hear from me. Yes, it's incredibly dumb
to say that Michael Jordan would average forty five points
in today's game. All this stuff you broke down about
pace is extremely important. There are a lot more possessions now.
So even though the points per game totals look generally
similar to the way they looked in the past, as
(14:46):
we know, there's the reality that the percentage of these guys,
the percentage of their team shots that these guys are taking,
is different than it was in the past. So very
well broken down on your part. I take it a
step further, like, one of the reasons why we're never
going to see a guy average forty five points is
the reality of how basketball works. And this is what's
so like frustrating about seeing like old vet NBA legends
(15:11):
say this shit and like we all know what it is, right, Like,
it's just sentimentality. They are very fond of their era.
I don't blame them. They should be. It'd be weird
if they weren't, right, so, like, it's fine that they
are that way. I think it just comes from a
defensive nature wanting to promote their era. I don't have
(15:31):
a problem with it. But anybody who's ever played basketball knows, like,
if you go down to your rec center, for God's sakes,
and you play pickup and you lose two or three
games because a dude's torching you from the three point line,
running off of screens, what are you gonna do? You're
gonna start reacting to it and sending multiple bodies, Like
(15:54):
there's literally a natural competitive defensive reaction from a team
when a guy's you up. Okay, it's a one on
one thing. This guy is torching his man over and
over again for bucket, bucket, bucket. He's beating you off
the court each time you step on. What are you
gonna do the next time? You're gonna be like, can
we please get a double team over here? Can we
(16:15):
send a second defender over get the ball out of
his hands? Like you can lean into it as much
as you want and teams will eventually react. Look at
James Harden. I think James Harden is the player in
NBA history that most try to gimmick his way to
(16:37):
the highest points per game total in the league, meaning
absurdly high usage. The offense was literally, just give the
ball to James Harden. He's gonna call for a ball screen,
and he's gonna play out of the ball screen, and
if he switches it, he's gonna ISO and then at
the last second he might throw it to you in
the corner for a three. He leaned so far into
(16:58):
that he became a caricature of himself, and it was effective.
He scored a lot of points very efficiently. But what
happened the league reacted. Guys started literally just sitting with
their hand like remember the Lakers that one game did
that comical hands behind their back, literally just like sidling
(17:18):
on his left hand, funneling him into triple teams in
the paint. There there were teams who quite literally played
behind James Harden like they positioned their on ball defenders
on the opposite side of James from the rim and
tried to force him to drive into all their help.
(17:38):
The point I'm trying to make is James Harden literally
played basketball as though his ultimate goal in that phase
of his career was to put up the highest points
per game totals ever. And he got to thirty six
points per game. Why because the league reacted and they
started guarding him that way. I'm a big Michael Jordan guy.
(18:02):
Do I think he could get up to where Shake
Gildess Alexander is maybe a touch higher, where he's averaging
thirty five thirty six points per game.
Speaker 1 (18:09):
He certainly could.
Speaker 2 (18:11):
But James Harden is a basketball player that played a
style that kind of has been proven not to work
over the course of playoff series.
Speaker 1 (18:21):
He would fatigue.
Speaker 2 (18:22):
Over the course of playoff series, defenders would figure out
what his moves look like and start getting in front
of them. He started not getting as much separation as
he used to. He started not doing as well playing
every possession as though the goal is for you to
score in the same two or three ways is just
going to make you easy to guard over the course
(18:43):
of time, which is why James Harden struggled so much
at the end of playoff series. Over the course of
his career, Michael Jordan is a competitor that wants to
win championships at all costs. Very different type of competitive
approach than James Harden. Certainly it would have manifested in
high points per game totals. He would have probably ended
up close to thirty five thirty six points per game,
(19:05):
just because he's better than all these dudes at scoring.
But it wouldn't look like a caricature of basketball. It
would look like Michael Jordan from his prime, with a
lot more three point volume, running into on and off ball,
pull up jump shots and movement jump shots and post ups,
and it would be high variety, like incredibly detailed scoring
(19:30):
in the modern NBA, done very effectively. And guess what
if he ever got into a crazy hot stretch where
he averaged forty five points per game for a four
game stretch and he was lighting the world on fire
by game five, they would come out from the opening
tip double teaming him and it would cause his point
totals to eventually go down. It's like Kobe had a
(19:53):
stretch where he had what fifty points in four consecutive
games and had a few sixty point games in there.
Speaker 1 (19:59):
Remember that, did he do that?
Speaker 2 (20:00):
All season or did eventually, they're a basketball reality form
around that, because teams aren't just gonna let the best
scorer in the world light them on.
Speaker 1 (20:12):
Fire over and over and over again.
Speaker 2 (20:14):
Could Michael Jordan's score forty five points per game in
today's NBA. Maybe, but it would be incredibly ugly basketball.
That would be bad for the team, and quite frankly,
Michael Jordan would never do that. And to take it
a step further, there are several guys in the league
today that could do that. Like Jokic could average forty
(20:35):
five points per game in today's NBA. It wouldn't be
good basketball. It wouldn't be good for his team. So,
like I just every time I hear that, it just
disappoints me because, like I understand where they're coming from,
but it like straight up doesn't make any basketball sense.
No one's gonna average forty five points per game anytime soon.
It's not gonna happen. Like, it's just not gonna happen. Hey, Jason,
(21:00):
out of curiosity, what actually prevented you from making the
NBA draft or six to six? And you said before
that you were blessed with good athleticism and you clearly
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(22:45):
To make a long ster short, I just wasn't nearly
good enough. There's I think there's two elements to it.
On the one hand, like I'm just not good enough.
Like I'm six six, that's decent size for a wing.
It's certainly they not bad size of his six to
ten wingspan. That's not bad. I was a good athlete
for like Juco and Naia hoops. But trust me, I've
(23:09):
met a lot better athletes than me in my life.
That played my position. And that's the thing is like
there's a version of my life where I could have
gone and played overseas for a while and made it.
I'm I feel very confident that I could have gone
and played overseas and played for a while, just because
I competed with and against those guys my entire life,
and it was just the pathway of my life that
didn't go that way. But like I I've played with
(23:31):
NBA level talent, there's a there's a whole other level
there guys, even high level overseas talent, like the dudes
who are playing in like the top leagues in Europe
or in the NBL. Like there's a guy in Tucson
who plays in the NBL, has won multiple MVPs over there.
His name is Bryce Cotton. He comes home and plays
in the summertime and Tucson. I've competed with him dozens
(23:52):
of times over the years. Every time he comes home,
I'm reminded there's another level. There's another level to this
that you can get to. Like, so on the one hand,
what the talent, Like if I was six six and
six ten and a substantially a six ten wingspan and
substantially more athletic. Maybe there's something to be had there,
(24:13):
but like the reality is is I'm a mediocre sized
wing that is athletic for the dudes you're gonna meet
at your rec run, but not athletic compared to NBA players.
There's always levels to this. Like you guys have probably
seen videos of me playing basketball, and yeah, I can
put a put forward a reasonable fact simile of a
pro level wing that you know that looks like he
(24:34):
takes basketball very seriously, but it's it's just not the
same as playing at.
Speaker 1 (24:38):
That NBA level.
Speaker 2 (24:40):
Now, why didn't I end up playing a longer career overseas?
To make a long story short, I was a very
late bloomer. I didn't get to the point where I
was what I would consider to be a good basketball
player until I was like thirty years old. I didn't
play at all growing up. I played for the first
(25:00):
as a junior in high school and was like the
worst player on the team.
Speaker 1 (25:03):
And like I've.
Speaker 2 (25:04):
Told this story before, I literally like was like not
doing what I needed to do in school, but just
playing basketball every day my first two years of college,
and it like led to me getting all these bad grades,
which came back to be a problem when I was
trying to get eligible. But it got me good enough
at basketball to where I was able to play, and
I was good enough to play at the JUCO level,
(25:26):
and I was good enough to like get a scholarship,
and I eventually was able to rectify my academics and
get out onto the court. But like, by the time
I was like twenty three and coming out of my
last year at Arizona Christian I had really only played
three years of organized basketball, like real, like I'm playing
rotation minutes organized basketball. I had only played three seasons
(25:47):
in my entire human life. So like I was just
a super late bloomer and so over the Yeah, like
by the time I was twenty four, I was a
lot better than I was twenty three. When I was
twenty five, was a lot better than I was twenty four.
And then during the early part to COVID, I really
put in a ton of work. I was selling real
estate at the time, so I had a really flexible job,
and I you know, obviously didn't have kids at the time,
and I was like I'm just going to work my
(26:09):
butt off at basketball, and like they're in my thirties.
I got to the point where I was like, Okay,
I can really shoot the ball, I can really handle
the ball. I can actually read that high level basketball
as it's happening around me. Like, but it's like, what
am I going to do?
Speaker 1 (26:22):
Go?
Speaker 2 (26:23):
I was married and had a job and responsibilities. I
was trying to make this happen, So like what was
I going to do? Like be like, hey, honey, I'm
going to go take a low level gig overseas to
work my way up and maybe one day play in
one of the top leagues in Europe. Like it just
was a completely unrealistic a goal for me at that
(26:44):
point in time. To make a long story short, when
I was young enough to actually go overseas to play,
I actually wasn't good enough. I was big and athletic,
but I didn't have the polish that was necessary. And
by the time I got to the point where I
actually felt like I was good enough to go over
and play, it just didn't. But the thing is is
it was I was okay with that. Like it's hard
to explain, but like there was a time when I
(27:05):
was like twenty seven, twenty eight where I finally was
just like I'm at peace with the fact that it's
in my basketball journey is not going to manifest in
this way. You know, there will always be a part
of me that wonders, like, had I picked up a
basketball when I was ten and like played YMCA hoops
(27:25):
and like played club basketball, and then a dude who
played all four years of high school and was in
the rotation all four of those years, and like learning
the game at a faster pace earlier in my life. Like, yeah,
there's a version of that where I go play at
a mid major D one, or maybe, if I'm lucky,
a high major, and maybe I end up going to
play overseas and I do it for seven eight years
(27:48):
and then I come home. But like it's you know
how it is when you start thinking about life that way.
It's like it all, it all is dependent on each other.
Like I look at it on the flip side, and
it's like, Okay, I didn't pick up a basketball until
I was very old, and I was I wasn't nearly
good enough in time to accomplish some of my basketball goals.
(28:10):
But at the same time, I was lucky enough to
get my school paid for and even though I was
a flawed college basketball player. I was like athletic and
got to have some memories and you know, had some
hot shooting stretches and had some big dunks and had
you know, I had thirty one points in a game.
I had a half dozen games where I had over
twenty points. And I know what it's like to be
in a real college basketball game and score thirty points.
It's cool feeling. I wasn't good enough though. I wasn't
(28:31):
good enough to go do the things that I wanted
to do after I played. But then you start to
think it through and it's like, okay. So right after
I was done at Arizona Christian, instead of going to
play overseas, I went home. When I went home, I
met my wife. I love my wife. We are incredibly
happy together. We're literally up here in Colorado. She skis,
(28:51):
she played college basketball herself. She's athletics, she's in great shape.
She like, we work out together, we go skiing together.
She's the love of my life. I feel incredibly blessed
to be with her. And like, if I would have
accomplished those basketball things, I'm probably not with my wife right.
A second piece of it, like what about this, Like
(29:12):
my love for basketball and my competitiveness manifests in this job.
There's a version of this where like if I got
caught up playing overseas for six or seven years, I
might have come home and not been in a position
where I felt mentally ready to do something like this,
because maybe I scratched that it's in a different way
(29:32):
playing overseas, and then maybe I'm not lucky to be
in the position where I am right now working for
the volume and having this platform and having this opportunity
to literally be around the game every day of my life. Right, So,
like when I was like twenty seven, twenty eight years old,
I reached a point where like I was looking at
my wife and I was looking around at my life,
and I was like, I'm happy, Like I'm happy with this, Like, yeah,
(29:55):
sucks that I didn't get an opportunity to accomplish some
of my basketball goals. And there'll be a again. Every
once in a while. You get the itch a lot
of times, like like often when I'm just competing against
really high level talent and I'm playing well, and I'm like, man,
like I just wish I could have followed this more
through to conclusion. But it's just now it worked out.
(30:16):
I'm at peace with it. I'm very very happy to
say that I get to be around the game every
day in my life.
Speaker 1 (30:20):
Like literally, I.
Speaker 2 (30:21):
Played basketball today. I played five on five basketball today
for the first time in a month because I've been
dealing with some injuries and I you know, I had
re injured my ankle like four times over the course
of a month ever since I turned thirty two. I'm
thirty four now, but ever since I turned thirty two,
it's just been this like unending. First it was my achilles,
and now it's been this ankle issue, and I've had
(30:43):
various other little nagging things that have popped up along
the way. But like it's taken me away from the game.
Like I straight up couldn't play for the last month.
And so then over the last thirteen days, I did
thirteen consecutive days of shooting workouts and then lifting with
my wife at forty five, and I was like, all right,
I'm gonna go play some basketball today. And I went
(31:03):
and played, and I fucking had the time of my life.
I love playing basketball, and so it's like I still
get to experience that joy of playing and I just
have come to a good, healthy spot with it all.
But to come back to the after that super long
random DYA tribe, to come back to your question, I
(31:25):
didn't make it because I don't have the natural gifts
for it, and I was way too late to the game.
I think, I do think that I was good enough
to potentially play overseas, but it just didn't work out
that way. And I have a ton of respect for
those guys who have done that. I've gotten to meet
several of those guys, and I sit down and I
talk to them, and I hear about the grind, and
I hear about how like, like, I had a buddy
(31:49):
who played D one and went and played overseas for
the last seven or eight years. I worked out with
him a couple summers in a row, and like, I
would talk to him and he'd be like, yeah, man, I'd
come home and I would meet a girl, and then
like I'd be like, but I have this contract, so
I'm leaving in two months, and then the relationship would
just end. And then and he ended up actually meeting
somebody over there, and I think I think they moved
(32:10):
back to the States. So thankfully, that story has a
happy ending. But like when I was hearing that story,
I'm like, yeah, that that's tough. That's a tough life,
you know. So I have a ton of respect for
the guys who've gone over and done it. I think
it's so cool when I hear about it. I'm lucky
to say that I've gotten to work out with and
meet many of these really high, high level players that
have come out of my hometown. It's a life that
(32:31):
I kind of like, part of me wishes I could
have experienced, But at the same time, I'm.
Speaker 1 (32:36):
At peace with it all. Right.
Speaker 2 (32:39):
Next question, So you dismissed the point about Lebron having
a negative point differential by pointing to previous seasons when
he was better. Your argument boils down to Lebron had
an awesome career and his last season was bad, but
also an outlier.
Speaker 1 (32:52):
Therefore he's number eight. Cool.
Speaker 2 (32:55):
Okay, So what I I think there's this misconception here,
because I want to be clear, I'm not discounting the
on off percent, the on off numbers with Lebron just
simply as a statistical outlier, separate off any context.
Speaker 1 (33:11):
We have to dig into it.
Speaker 2 (33:13):
Right when I dug into it and I go, Okay,
Lebron did have a rough stretch. He had a stretch
there to start the season where I was like, he's
not playing very well. He wasn't bad, he wasn't like
actively hurting the team on every single possession, but he
wasn't playing very well. Then in the middle portion of
the season, like he legit was kicking ass, like there's
(33:36):
there's that's not a bad basketball player, that's a player
that's kicking ass. And then towards the end of the
year he was more in that second tier as he
was coming back from his groin injury. But as I
look at it, so it's like, first of all, Lebron's
playing better basketball. Lebron's playing better basketball than he did
last year. That is part of this. Secondly, the lineup data,
(33:57):
when you dug into it, Lebron was second on the
team in minutes behind Austin Reeves. So like, Lebron was
on the floor for most of the season, Lebron was
on the floor against the starters. Lebron was on the
floor closing those games, and the Lakers won fifty games
and were the three seed. So like, if if let's
just follow the path of the Lebron hater here to conclusion. Well,
(34:21):
you're insinuating is that Lebron James, the player who had
a positive on off differential every single year of his
career before then the majority of the year's massive on
off positive differentials. You're saying that this guy who more
or less looks at least as good as he was
the year before, if not a little better, but like
(34:43):
made second team All NBA, made thirteen the year before.
Obviously no tangible drop off, Like there was nothing we
were watching Lebron with last year where it's like, oh,
he sucks at that Now, No, like he's fine. He
looks more or less the same. He's on the floor
for all the pivotal moments of games. The Lakers are
winning all these games. You're trying to convince us that
(35:04):
the Lakers won fifty games in spite of Lebron even
though he looks like more or less the same player,
And it's an obvious statistical outlier when you compare it
to previous data. That's what I'm saying here. I'm saying,
if I was looking at it all, let's say that
he had a negative point differential, like all these positive differentials,
(35:27):
negative differential. But I'm watching the TV and it's like,
awesome Lebron, Awesome Lebron, Awesome, Lebron, awesome Lebron. Oh bad
Lebron bad. Point differential where it's like the eye test
is matching up with the numbers and the team's not
performing well and all of these different things come to fruition.
Then we can look at it and go, yeah, we
need to have a conversation about how Lebron's hurting the team.
(35:50):
But there you will find noise like that throughout this
sort of thing. I've pulled up a lot of on
off plus minuses there over the course of this Over
the course of this UH player rankings list, I can't
remember exactly what it was, but there was an offense
one with the Knicks with Jalen Brunson that didn't make
sense a year where they were like the same or
(36:12):
better when he was off the floor on offense. It
was either like last year in the playoffs or last year.
I can't remember exactly which which UH two years ago
in the playoffs. I mean, I can't remember which exact
data set it was. But I saw it and I
looked at the others and it was like they're clearly
way better on offense when he's on here. They're clearly
way better on offense when he's on here. They're clearly
(36:32):
way better when he's on offense when he's on here,
and here and here. This is clearly a statistical outlier. Like,
clearly something funky was going on here. It's not like
Jalen Brunson was fucking the team up on offense during
that time. Like that's the whole point is Like, if
you're what it is, in my opinion, super revealing that
you guys just don't like the guy, and like, look whatever,
(36:56):
you don't like the guy. But like, when you cling
to one single piece of data irrespective of all of
the surrounding information we have, you are revealing your bias. Okay,
when we have a piece of data and the surrounding
information leads us to believe that that piece of data
should be taken very seriously. Totally different conversation. But we
(37:19):
had the Bestlaker team in years, the best Lebron season
in years, Lebron more, Lebron was on the floor for
all of these pivotal moments, and you're trying to tell
us that he was hurting the team last year, like
because of this one piece of data that very clearly
has a lot of noise involved, and it just it's
just your again. I think you're just I think you're
(37:40):
just allowing your dislike for the guy to come through
for whatever reason, which leads perfectly into this next question. Hey, Jason,
the reason people hate Lebron isn't because he's Steph's rival.
It's because Steph is much more likable as a human.
Steph fans are used to humility when it comes to
their favorite player versus Lebron fans who are used to ego,
(38:02):
so it's much easier for them to respect a player
that's humble and fun.
Speaker 1 (38:06):
Here's the thing.
Speaker 2 (38:08):
And I know that I'll have some Lebron fans that'll
get super pissed off at me about this, But Lebron
fans are crazy, So what are you gonna do? So
are Steh fans sections of them? I should say Steph
is more likable than Lebron.
Speaker 1 (38:21):
He just is.
Speaker 2 (38:23):
Lebron is a showman. He has a massive ego. I'm
not even saying that Steph doesn't, but Lebron has a
massive outward ego. He's very melodramatic. He Lebron is just
a very unique type of human that comes off in
this very like like, uh, it's hard to explain. It's
(38:45):
like charisma mixed with it's not cockiness, but it's like
this outrageous amount of outward confidence in charisma and showman shit.
Like this is the guy who will like literally look
at the crowd and like ask for the applause and
do that kind of stuff. And I know Steph has
played to the crowd before, but Lebron just did it
a lot more over the course of his career. Steph,
(39:07):
on the other hand, is psycho competitive, will do some
of that stuff, is a showman, but he's much more
like tempered down compared to Lebron. I do think there
is a natural like this kind of attitude that rubs
people the wrong way. Like if you go around to
literally anybody who has like a big personality that's out
(39:31):
there and not afraid to carry themselves with confidence, it
comes with being polarized, like polarizing, right, like Steven A Smith.
A lot of people hate that dude, right, A lot
of people love him, but he's got a big group
of detractors because he's Stephen A Smith and he carries
himself the way Steven A.
Speaker 1 (39:50):
Smith does.
Speaker 2 (39:51):
He just has big energy, big confidence, big charisma. Some
people like it, some people don't like it. Right, Like
a lot of people here Aaron Rodgers talk and immediately
don't like the guy like it because of the cockiness
and the bravado that comes off of him. Steph is
just a more relatable, naturally behaving human and that I
(40:13):
think resonates with more people than it does with Lebron, Because,
like you know, this is the ultimate question, right, why
do so many people hate Lebron? Because there is legitimately
a substantially larger group of people who hates Lebron than
the group that hates Steph. And you got to ask
yourself why it can't just be because of winning, Because
even though I think Lebron obviously has a higher place
(40:35):
all time than Steph. Steph's a prettydamn accomplished basketball player,
has done a lot of winning in his life, But
like Steph, for whatever reason, just doesn't have that army
of haters. And I think it just stems from the
fact that for Lebron just rubbs some people the wrong way.
Speaker 1 (40:48):
It is what it is.
Speaker 2 (40:50):
I'm like, I don't care I'm a basketball fan, so
I look at both of them and irrespective of what
their personalities bring to the table, I like to look
at them as these two different, completely unique basketball players.
But there are a lot of people who cannot see
past that with Lebron, and so they just hate the
guy and it clouds the way they view him as a
(41:11):
basketball player. Like I'm that part frustrates me. I agree,
but I tend to agree that I think Steph is
a more naturally likable person. All right, Hey, Jason, I
was wondering what your take on the recent Warrior System
narratives floating around that both stars and role players don't
want to come to the Warriors because they don't want
their only job to just be passing the ball to Steph.
(41:34):
Do you think players are indeed diminished in the Warrior
System compared to others. Do you think this perception has
affected their ability to acquire players. No, I think that
anybody would want to play with Steph, or would want
to play with Luca, or would want to play with
these guys. I do think that there is a natural like, oh,
my game fits with this type of person attitude that
(41:55):
you'll see out there, right, So, for instance, like if
you're a guy who can like shoot on the move
and do more stuff off the bounce, you're gonna probably
want to play in a five out system because if
you're gonna go and I'm talking about role players, I
should say people who are not stars, you're gonna want
to go play somewhere where you can play off the bounce,
(42:18):
and so like, yeah, you may not want to go
play alongside Luka Doncic and stand in the corner, right,
But then if.
Speaker 1 (42:26):
You're a shooter, like a spot up shooter, you.
Speaker 2 (42:30):
May not want to go play somewhere where you're gonna
have to put the ball on the floor and make decisions, right. So,
like here's the thing, Like the Warriors run a very
exaggerated version of five out offense compared to other teams
in the league just because they have a guy that
comes off of screens more than anyone else and just
in general, they just have a roster that is like
tailor made for that offense. But there are other systems
(42:52):
around the league that run similar actions, so does Indiana,
and Indiana runs a lot of like Chicago action and
like split cuts, like all these different things that are
natural five out concepts, and again five out. All the
five out basketball is is you don't have anybody permanently
occupying a space under the rim. They'll drive to the rim,
(43:13):
they'll cut to the rim, they'll roll to the rim,
they'll you know, relocate under the rim. But for the
most part, everyone's moving around, and five out tends to
have more side to side movement and more ball and
player movement and more actions run per possession, whereas four
out is more of like a spacing principle. Guy in
the left corner, guy in the right corner, guy on
the right wing. I'm dribbling on the left wing, They're
(43:36):
going to come set a ball screen and then roll.
Or that guy's gonna sit in the dunker spot while
I ISO and I'm gonna try to break the defense down,
he'll be staying there. I'll throw the lob right. There
are all these different sets you can run out of it.
But obviously a four out approach is more catered to
a small amount of ball handling. So a couple of
guys who are gonna handle the majority of the ball
handling responsibility and then play finishers. You're either gonna shoot
(43:59):
at drive a close out or finish at the rim right,
Whereas in a five out system there's a lot more demanding.
Speaker 1 (44:07):
There's a lot more demand.
Speaker 2 (44:09):
On other ball handling, Like more people are going to
touch the ball in every possession. Interior playmaking is more important.
Guys who can play on the role, Guys who can
play on the short role, that sort of thing. So
like I do think that there are players that look
at Golden State and go that's not the right system
for me. But then I think there are players who
look at Golden State and go that is the right
(44:30):
system for me. I saw the name Ben Simmons floating around, Like,
do I think Ben Simmons is a substantial needle mover
for the Warriors. No, But like Ben Simmons is a
guy that, in theory could kind of be a functioning
big in Golden State system. Because what is Golden State's
system tax bigs to do to pass to guys running
(44:54):
in and out of split cuts as they have the
ball in the post, to short roll off of steph
to run dribble handoffs with their guards as they come
running off of action, and then to roll into space.
Like all of that kind of aligns with what Bensimmon's
skill set is so like to me. To me, it
just kind of depends on the player. And similarly, like
you know, let's take Dorian Finney Smith with the Lakers.
(45:17):
I think he's a four out player. I think he
needs to be playing where he's catching the ball wide
open in the corner, wide open on the wing. I
think if you ask Dorian Finney Smith to play in
the Warriors system, you'd find out pretty quick that he's
too small to be a big and he doesn't handle
the ball well enough to really function in their high paced,
read and react offense. So like, I think that kind
(45:39):
of dictates it more than any sort of like like
vendetta that any one player would have against a team.
I saw a discussion on Twitter about a hypothetical one
on one, and I'm curious about your take Kawhi Leonard
versus Kevin Durant. The assumption is, of course, that both
are healthy and at their peak. We saw Kadie drop
fifty on the Raptors back in twenty nineteen, but Kawhi
wasn't consistently guarding him every possession to his offensive role,
(46:01):
So I'm curious how Kawhi's strength and defensive instincts counter
Kd's length and offensive craftsmanship. Kauhi is still an underrated
scorer while KD is an underrated defender. My question is
how big is the gap between the two KD on
offense versus Kawhi on offense and UH and vice versa
on defense. As a biased Kawhi fan, He's got my vote,
but would love to hear your input. This one is
(46:22):
really interesting because you said hypothetical one v one, So
I do think that Kawhi would beat.
Speaker 1 (46:28):
Kevin Durant in one on one. The reason why is
Kawhi has.
Speaker 2 (46:33):
Such a physical strength advantage, So like when he's guarding Kevin,
he's going to be able to put his hands on
him and really hold him physically in place and force
him into extremely difficult over the top jump shots. On
the flip side, Kawhi, whenever he wants to get to
his spot, can just drop his shoulder and hit KD
(46:55):
and create the separation he needs to get to his
short range shot making, which is going to be really
both with his ability to get separation there, it'd be close,
but I could see Kawhi beating Kevin Durant in a
strict one on one. But I do think Kevin Durant,
when he would was at his peak, was a better
basketball player overall than Kawhi Leonard because basketball is not.
Speaker 1 (47:15):
One on one.
Speaker 2 (47:16):
I talked about a game when I was doing our
Greatest Peaks video after the Anthony Edwards episode, if you
guys remember, just literally on Wednesday, and I talked about
I talked about Kevin Durant's best game, which was Game
three of the twenty eighteen NBA Finals, and it was like.
Speaker 1 (47:34):
He had.
Speaker 2 (47:36):
Forty thirty points and thirteen rebounds and seven assists. He
dominated that game as like a floor general, And there's
a level of like running five on five offense that
I think kd was better than Kawhi at kad as
his best, at his best as a passer was a
substantially better passer than Kawhi ever was. I think Kadie's
(47:57):
ability to play in and out of action is better
than Kawi's ability to play in and out of action. Like, yeah,
give me Kawhi post ups and high post ups and
ISOs sure, but like kt is a guy that like
is legitimately a high volume off of screen shooter and
a guy that can play pick and roll at an
extremely high level when he was at his peak. And
so yeah, like, sure, Kawhi Leonard could beat KD one
(48:20):
on one just because he could physically maul him, But
in five on five basketball games, I think KD was
the better basketball player even looking at a defense like
Kawhi's value as an on ball defender can only be
used in one spot, like Kd's value as a rim
protector and rebounder when he was at because KD was
a really solid rebounder when he was at his peak, right, Like,
(48:41):
I think the gap between KD and Kawhi defensively is
actually pretty small. In the team context. Kui is a
better defender, but KD makes it pretty close with all
of his versatility on that end of the floor. And
by the way, KD was a pretty good one on
one defender as well. Right on the offensive end of
the floor two e lead scorers, KD maybe a much
better at just like physical bullyball one on one stuff,
(49:03):
but in versatility of scoring and the ability to play
make and pass at a different action and score off
the move out of different action that to me, it
gives him a pretty substantial gap as an offensive player
over Kawhi two more quick ones. How do we contextualize
Wemby's lack of playoff experience when it's a huge part
of the road to the title. As per your criteria,
(49:24):
you want a player from October to June, but we
have little idea of what Wemby would look like in
that environment. And if his offense is robust enough to
handle the intensity in the defense of the playoffs, well,
I think he's easily a top ten regular season player.
I have a hard time putting him ahead of players
that are slightly worse regular season players like Brunson or Mitchell,
but have already shown themselves as elite playoff performers. Great
episode as per usual. Thanks for the breakdown, Thanks for
(49:44):
supporting the show. Here's the thing, Yeah, there's some question
marks regarding Wemby as an offensive player in the playoffs.
There's a version of it where in his first playoff
series he averages sixteen points per game on forty nine
percent shooting because he just gets physically mauled and double
teamed then and he struggles with it, and he's also
(50:05):
going to dominate that series on defense. Wemby has an
extremely high floor in the playoffs. Because he's the best
defensive player in the world and can We've actually seen
this where like guys can actually leverage that up a
level like Yannis being able to all of a sudden
be two places at once and he race a lob
when he's guarding the damn ball and pick and roll, Like,
(50:27):
there is a level that Wemby's going to be able
to get too defensively in the postseason. That makes his
impact already pretty close to the top guys. And so yeah,
if he can if he can get to even just
twenty points per game on fifty six percent through shooting,
he's already a top ten playoff player. And if he
can that, if he gets up to the point where
he's scoring effectively in the postseason while being the best
(50:48):
defensive player, that's where we're talking about a guy who's
a candidate for the best player in the world, And
that's where I think he can get in the next
couple of years. Last one, Hi Jason loved the show.
I had a question relating to NBA fans. I can't
believe some of the comments I see here. Makes me
wonder if people come to podcasts like this to actually
enjoy their time or not. Do you ever get discouraged
doing rankings like these? No matter how you rank them,
(51:10):
people will be upset. So you just get better at it.
It's hard to explain. It's honestly, it's encouraging to me
because like obviously the negativity got to me more when
I first started doing this. As I always say, like
it never stops getting to you, like every once in
a while, like I'll just get it a you know,
when I'm looking through for a mail bag, I'll just
(51:32):
see someone it's just being an asshole. And it's like
every time you're like it just bums you out right
because like I'm sitting on the couch, like my dogs
are sitting next to me, you know, I'm enjoying a
cup of coffee, just working, and then all of a sudden,
someone just talks some crazy shit like like right to
your face, right, like it's weird, and that part never
goes away, but you just get better at it, and
(51:54):
like it bothered me a lot early on, but like thankfully,
like I'm three years and three and a half years
into doing this for the volume, and even in just
three and a half years, I'm so so so much
better at just like rolling with the punches and not
letting that stuff get to me. Again, I've told you
guys this before, but the rationalization is pretty simple, Like
why would I get upset about you know, a dozen
(52:18):
trolls under each video and maybe one or two really
mean comments when the video has, you know, in the
NBA playoffs over fifty thousand views on average, right, Like,
I'm just not going to get overly worked up about
that when it's just a small number of bad actors,
when the majority of you guys are just normal dudes
(52:38):
like me who love the game who are coming in
for some basketball analysis. I know the feeling. I like,
I've listened to basketball pods, especially before I did this
for a living, Like I most of you guys are
just people like me who love basketball and who are
good people who are living normal, good lives in our
(53:00):
you know, managing a relationship and maybe raising a family
and dealing with your own family whatever stuff you've got
going on. Like we're all just in the grind, being
normal people. And then there are just these bad actors
out there, and like you just have to kind of
find a way to compartmentalize them by reminding yourself that
there's just so much more normal behavior going on. But again,
(53:23):
the truth of the matter is that it never gets
not weird. It always is like a little jarring to
read someone being an asshole, but like, you just get
better at it. And the fact that I'm doing this
well at three and a half years makes me feel
optimistic that, you know, ten years in it should be
something that bothers me very little. But the truth of
the matter is, just like anything else in life, you
(53:43):
just get better with reps. Every time you do something,
you get a little better at it, and that's kind
of more or less what it's like dealing with trolls.
All right, guys, that's all I have for today is
always to sincerely appreciate you guys for supporting me and
supporting the show. I hope you guys have an amazing weekend.
Next week's gonna be a little different. No mailbag next weekend.
We're gonna do number four on Monday, number three on Wednesday,
and the number two and number one on Friday, So
(54:04):
player rankings Pact week.
Speaker 1 (54:05):
I will see you guys then,
The volume. All right, welcome to Hoops Tonight. You're at
the volume.
Speaker 2 (00:17):
Happy Friday, everybody, hopeful you guys are having a great
end to your week.
Speaker 1 (00:20):
It is mail bag day.
Speaker 2 (00:22):
We have all sorts of super interesting questions to get into.
Would Michael Jordan average forty five points per game in
today's NBA? Who would win a one on one between
KD and Kawhi? Some more, debate over the lebron and
the step ranking. All sorts of interesting stuff to get into.
You guys, owe the joke before we get started. Subscribe
to the Hoops Tonight YouTube channel, so don't miss any
(00:43):
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Make sure you guys follow us over there, and then,
last but not least, if you want to get questions
into these mail bags, go to our full episodes. Go
(01:03):
to the comments right mail bag with the colon, write
in your comment, your question, and we'll get to them
on our mail bags throughout the remainder of the summer.
All right, let's talk some basketball. First question, strongly disagreeing
with the Steph over Lebron ranking. The Warriors were barely
five hundred before the Jimmy trade, and Lebron was like
seven to one in games without Luca and AD. I
(01:25):
understand sample size is different, but Warriors without Jimmy were
still a complete roster, but Lebron without a co star
was a significantly more InCom was with a significantly more
incomplete team. Lebron is still more reliable than Steph when
it comes to availability, and was showed and showed a
higher peak than Steph last season. And all this is
ignoring the multiple single digit scoring nights from Steph last season.
(01:48):
I think you were doing the exact same thing that
many analysts on TV do, expecting Lebron to fall off
instead of grading him based on what we were actually
seeing on the court from him. Major fan of the
show and really appreciate how well thought it your takestar.
Thank you for supporting the show. A lot of like
individual things that I want to kind of get into there,
because there are things that you said that I agree with,
and there are things that you said that I disagree with,
(02:09):
and I think that some of them are less relevant
to this discussion than others. So a couple things to
kind of go piecemeal through some of the specific things
I disagree with the performance of the team. So, Stephan,
the Warriors being below five hundred, that roster was extremely limited.
Off the top, they had a depth of quality end
of the bench role player talent in the sense that
(02:31):
they had fourteen fifteen guys that they could play rotation minutes.
But in terms of top end talent, going from Steph
to you know, Andrew Wiggins and Buddy Healed and Draymond
Green to getting rid of Andrew Wiggins and obviously Jimmy
Butler comes in the equation, they immediately start kicking ass.
I don't really care to look at a two players
(02:53):
and how they rank or compare with each other when
the rosters are so incredibly different. So, for instance, like
all you got to do if you're a STEPH fan
is go, well, look, in twenty twenty two, we won
the title and the Lakers missed the playoffs. Well, it's like, yeah, that.
I don't think that Warriors roster was a world beater
by any means, but it certainly was a hell of
a lot better roster than the Russell Westbrook catastrophe roster
(03:15):
that that group struggled with, especially when Anthony Davis went
down with injury. Similarly, now I do think Lebron, Austin Reeves,
Ruwiy Hatcha Mura, obviously, Anthony Davis to start the year,
Luka Doncic later in the year, it is better basketball team, guys,
it's better basketball team. They were the three seed in
the Western Conference. Now, so that's going to naturally result
(03:37):
in differences in team records, regardless of the difference in
the way that Lebron and Steph were playing. Now, let's
get into some of the specifics that you said. You
said Lebron reached a higher peak than Steph last season.
Speaker 1 (03:48):
I agree.
Speaker 2 (03:49):
I thought Steph got I thought Steph was really good
down the stretch of the season. But that little stretch
there in February from Lebron was one of the best
stretches from any player in the league last year. Happened
to coincide with a stretch when Anthony Davis was out
and Luka Doncic was out. So it was perfect timing
for the Lakers because Lebron hit his absolute peak when
(04:10):
they absolutely needed him to, and they were able to
rattle off some wins. But if you look at the
totality of the season, I do think that Steph has
more value right now as an advantage creator than Lebron.
I want to dive a little bit further into this
concept because you even said in your question all of
this is ignoring the multiple single digit scoring nights from
(04:31):
Steph last season. I still believe that Steph has an
advantage creation element to him that Lebron has much less
so to this point in his career. So or at
this point in his career, when Lebron was it in
more of his physical prime, he was able to break
the defense down more. What does that mean? What does
(04:51):
it mean to break the defense down? When the defense
is loaded up, so best perimeter defender on you, All
the helpside is looking at you, all the game planning
is built on how to guard you. You are now
breaking the defense to where somebody is wide open that
probably shouldn't be. I don't mean like, oh, this guy
(05:11):
standing wide open because no one thinks he can shoot.
I mean like you have broken the defense. Like you,
Lebron gets into a post up and gets a switch
that he likes and breaks it down into the middle
of the paint, draws a triple team and ruy Hatramura's
wide open in the right corner. That's breaking the defense down.
(05:33):
Right Steph Curry running off of an off ball screen
or an on ball screen and drawing two to the ball,
so that now there's a four on three materializing. That's
breaking the defense down. As Lebron has gotten older, it's
been more difficult for him to do that. He's not
as capable of bullying his way to the basket as
well as he used to when his legs were stronger
(05:55):
and had more pop to them. Obviously the dribble drive pop.
We talked about it in the one on one numbers
when we were covering Lebron in the rankings. When Lebron
can break the defense down methodically, whether it's there's a
guard that he can attack through the post on a switch,
or if it's like a specific team that can't switch
his ball screens so that he can get downhill, Lebron
(06:15):
is good. Like we talked about he was a very
good pick and role player last year. That was a
big thing that carried him to being a good half
court initiator last year. But Lebron has gone from being
what he used to be, which was the one of
the top two or three offensive engines in the NBA
every single year for twenty years or eighteen nineteen years.
He's gone from that to being like a second or
(06:38):
third tier offensive engine.
Speaker 1 (06:39):
Now.
Speaker 2 (06:40):
His ability to break the defense down isn't the same
as it used to be. No shame in that he's
literally going to be forty one years old this season,
right Steph Curry up through this to this point, and
we'll see how long he can maintain it, because now
he's entering into those years where things can start to
slow down. But up to this point with Steph because
(07:00):
of his shooting ability, because the league still reacts to
him as though he is prime Steph Curry, and until
that changes, he'll still be a great offensive engine. As
long as he's out there on the floor and teams
are guarding him like he's Steph Curry, he has this
element of advantage creation, the ability to break the defense
(07:21):
down to consistently get these really nice openings that the
team can capitalize on. And that's the thing, like we
talked about it. Yeah, like for Steph to be the
top one of the top tier guys, he needs to
combine his advantage creation with scoring and we covered that
in this Steph video. But as far as like his
night to night impact, there's a reason why guys, you
(07:44):
said they were under five hundred or barely five hundred
before the Jimmy trade. You talk about them fighting up
out of the play in tournament this year, think about
some of the stats that we shared from that that
is because of the roster. The roster had severe limitation.
They didn't bring a secondary star until the home stretch,
at which point they looked great. But if you actually
(08:05):
zoom out from the season for the entirety of the season,
according to Cleaning the Glass, despite playing with Andrew Wiggins
and Buddy Healed as his best offensive supporting talent for
the two thirds of the season, the Warriors posted a
one twenty offensive rating with Steph on the floor. So, like,
(08:27):
let's get into this. I have Steph at six, I
have Lebron at eight. Why do I still have Steph
over Lebron? Even though Lebron has been playing really well,
hit a higher short term ceiling during that February stretch
this year. And you know, obviously, you guys know how
I feel about Lebron all time, and you guys know
(08:48):
how I feel about Lebron when he was in his
prime versus Steth. He's not in his prime anymore.
Speaker 1 (08:52):
Guys like I root for the Lakers.
Speaker 2 (08:54):
Anybody who's ever rooted, like seriously rooted for a basketball
team can really get an honest feel for what it's
like watching them because you feel the pain of loss, right.
I have watched Lebron at this phase in his career
struggle to break the defense down where they'll have like
extended stretches where they can't score. And I know we've
(09:16):
seen that with the Warriors, but when I watch it
with the Warriors, especially when you look at the roster,
like guys, the Lakers had extended stretches last year where
they were bad on offense despite having Austin Reeves, ruey
Hatramura Lebron. And it's because Austin Reeves as good as
he is, if you switch and you keep a good
(09:37):
athlete on him, he can struggle to actually break the defense.
Speaker 1 (09:41):
Down.
Speaker 2 (09:42):
Similarly, Lebron, if you can switch big athletic players onto
him and not allow him to use ball screens in
the traditional sense, he can have difficulty breaking the defense down.
Steph Curry at this phase of his career is better
than Lebron by a pretty decent margin at breaking the
(10:04):
defense down. He took a roster that was utterly devoid
of offensive talent and hung a one twenty offensive rating.
Last year, Lebron had a brief stretch where everything came
together for him physically mentally, and you know what, he
kicked everyone's ass for a couple of for like five
weeks or so, right, And that's a feather in his cap.
(10:24):
But when I look at the totality of the last
couple of years, the majority of the time he's been
a second tier offensive engine. I think right now Steph
is the third best guy in the league behind Luka
and Jokic still to this day at breaking the defense
down at consistently through the threat of his shooting and
(10:45):
running around, forcing teams to overreact to him so that
people are open. And once you have open guys, offense flows.
That's why they put up a one to twenty offensive rating.
It's not about anything to do with the Lebron Stephed
debit in the big picture, it's just for the future.
Now we'll see Steph might next year lose a step
(11:08):
not be as capable of beating defenses, start facing lesser coverages,
and all of a sudden, his value as an offensive
engine might decrease. I'm just saying through to the point.
When he got hurt last year, I still felt like
teams regarding him like he was Steph Curry, and he
was still breaking the defense down like Steph Curry, and
he was still putting up monster offensive ratings first team
(11:29):
like Steph Curry. There's no shame in that he's considerably
younger than Lebron. Even though he's old, He's considerably younger
than Lebron. It's actually a good time. I go to
hop forward to a different question because I got one
from you guys having to do with the having to
do with the age piece of it and durability. Here
(11:50):
it is, how is Steph's longevity even remotely comparable to
Lebron when Lebron played twenty four thousand more minutes. Here's
the thing. I don't mean it's comparable in the sense
that no one's gonna go out and make an argument
that Steph has a more impressive longevity case than Lebron.
That would be stupid. Lebron has the best longevity case
(12:12):
in all of in all of NBA history. Even when
you look at Kareem, he just wasn't able to maintain
the level of play that Lebron has been at. Lebron
just got named second Team All NBA in his twenty
second season. Lebron's the goat to certainly the goat of longevity,
and I would argue that's one of the biggest feathers
in his in his goat cap right. What I meant
(12:36):
when I'm bringing up Steph's longevity has to do with
the fact that he's a small guard. One of the
reasons why Lebron can play this many minutes and still
be this impactful is that, yes, he's taking care of
his body, but he's also six foot nine, two hundred
and sixty pounds, like just like really naturally gifted athletically,
(12:57):
literally one of the greatest athletes to ever set foot
on the play, So it's easier for him to rely
on his physical size and strength as he ages in
a way that smaller players can't. Steph is literally a
foot speed, reliant guard, and so I do think it's impressive.
(13:17):
I'm not saying that he's Lebron. I'm just saying I
think it's impressive that over the course of this this
phase of his career and is entering into his late thirties,
like post thirty five, that Steph is still able to
break defenses down the way he does, that he's still
able to score as effectively as he does. Like, I
think stephs longevity is uniquely impressive among small guards. I
(13:44):
recently saw where Tylu said Michael Jordan would average forty
five points in today's NBA. This is a familiar theme
We've all heard. Previous NBA Hall of Fame players would
average forty or fifty points in today's NBA. If it's
not MJ, it's Alan Iverson or some other guard. I
think this is ridiculous. MJ took thirty two percent of
his team shots the year he averaged thirty seven points
(14:04):
per game. Today's leading scorers take about twenty four percent
of their team shots. If Kevin Durant, Lebron, James, or
Giannis took thirty two percent of their team shots. I'm
sure they would average forty points too, but today's NBA
doesn't lend to that possibility. Defenses are too advanced to
allow that players today are way too skilled. What are
your thoughts? Love your content and keep up the awesome analysis.
Thank you so much for the kind words. That was
(14:25):
a really well laid out case. I mean, guys, you
don't need to hear from me. Yes, it's incredibly dumb
to say that Michael Jordan would average forty five points
in today's game. All this stuff you broke down about
pace is extremely important. There are a lot more possessions now.
So even though the points per game totals look generally
similar to the way they looked in the past, as
(14:46):
we know, there's the reality that the percentage of these guys,
the percentage of their team shots that these guys are taking,
is different than it was in the past. So very
well broken down on your part. I take it a
step further, like, one of the reasons why we're never
going to see a guy average forty five points is
the reality of how basketball works. And this is what's
so like frustrating about seeing like old vet NBA legends
(15:11):
say this shit and like we all know what it is, right, Like,
it's just sentimentality. They are very fond of their era.
I don't blame them. They should be. It'd be weird
if they weren't, right, so, like, it's fine that they
are that way. I think it just comes from a
defensive nature wanting to promote their era. I don't have
(15:31):
a problem with it. But anybody who's ever played basketball knows, like,
if you go down to your rec center, for God's sakes,
and you play pickup and you lose two or three
games because a dude's torching you from the three point line,
running off of screens, what are you gonna do? You're
gonna start reacting to it and sending multiple bodies, Like
(15:54):
there's literally a natural competitive defensive reaction from a team
when a guy's you up. Okay, it's a one on
one thing. This guy is torching his man over and
over again for bucket, bucket, bucket. He's beating you off
the court each time you step on. What are you
gonna do the next time? You're gonna be like, can
we please get a double team over here? Can we
(16:15):
send a second defender over get the ball out of
his hands? Like you can lean into it as much
as you want and teams will eventually react. Look at
James Harden. I think James Harden is the player in
NBA history that most try to gimmick his way to
(16:37):
the highest points per game total in the league, meaning
absurdly high usage. The offense was literally, just give the
ball to James Harden. He's gonna call for a ball screen,
and he's gonna play out of the ball screen, and
if he switches it, he's gonna ISO and then at
the last second he might throw it to you in
the corner for a three. He leaned so far into
(16:58):
that he became a caricature of himself, and it was effective.
He scored a lot of points very efficiently. But what
happened the league reacted. Guys started literally just sitting with
their hand like remember the Lakers that one game did
that comical hands behind their back, literally just like sidling
(17:18):
on his left hand, funneling him into triple teams in
the paint. There there were teams who quite literally played
behind James Harden like they positioned their on ball defenders
on the opposite side of James from the rim and
tried to force him to drive into all their help.
(17:38):
The point I'm trying to make is James Harden literally
played basketball as though his ultimate goal in that phase
of his career was to put up the highest points
per game totals ever. And he got to thirty six
points per game. Why because the league reacted and they
started guarding him that way. I'm a big Michael Jordan guy.
(18:02):
Do I think he could get up to where Shake
Gildess Alexander is maybe a touch higher, where he's averaging
thirty five thirty six points per game.
Speaker 1 (18:09):
He certainly could.
Speaker 2 (18:11):
But James Harden is a basketball player that played a
style that kind of has been proven not to work
over the course of playoff series.
Speaker 1 (18:21):
He would fatigue.
Speaker 2 (18:22):
Over the course of playoff series, defenders would figure out
what his moves look like and start getting in front
of them. He started not getting as much separation as
he used to. He started not doing as well playing
every possession as though the goal is for you to
score in the same two or three ways is just
going to make you easy to guard over the course
(18:43):
of time, which is why James Harden struggled so much
at the end of playoff series. Over the course of
his career, Michael Jordan is a competitor that wants to
win championships at all costs. Very different type of competitive
approach than James Harden. Certainly it would have manifested in
high points per game totals. He would have probably ended
up close to thirty five thirty six points per game,
(19:05):
just because he's better than all these dudes at scoring.
But it wouldn't look like a caricature of basketball. It
would look like Michael Jordan from his prime, with a
lot more three point volume, running into on and off ball,
pull up jump shots and movement jump shots and post ups,
and it would be high variety, like incredibly detailed scoring
(19:30):
in the modern NBA, done very effectively. And guess what
if he ever got into a crazy hot stretch where
he averaged forty five points per game for a four
game stretch and he was lighting the world on fire
by game five, they would come out from the opening
tip double teaming him and it would cause his point
totals to eventually go down. It's like Kobe had a
(19:53):
stretch where he had what fifty points in four consecutive
games and had a few sixty point games in there.
Speaker 1 (19:59):
Remember that, did he do that?
Speaker 2 (20:00):
All season or did eventually, they're a basketball reality form
around that, because teams aren't just gonna let the best
scorer in the world light them on.
Speaker 1 (20:12):
Fire over and over and over again.
Speaker 2 (20:14):
Could Michael Jordan's score forty five points per game in
today's NBA. Maybe, but it would be incredibly ugly basketball.
That would be bad for the team, and quite frankly,
Michael Jordan would never do that. And to take it
a step further, there are several guys in the league
today that could do that. Like Jokic could average forty
(20:35):
five points per game in today's NBA. It wouldn't be
good basketball. It wouldn't be good for his team. So,
like I just every time I hear that, it just
disappoints me because, like I understand where they're coming from,
but it like straight up doesn't make any basketball sense.
No one's gonna average forty five points per game anytime soon.
It's not gonna happen. Like, it's just not gonna happen. Hey, Jason,
(21:00):
out of curiosity, what actually prevented you from making the
NBA draft or six to six? And you said before
that you were blessed with good athleticism and you clearly
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(22:45):
To make a long ster short, I just wasn't nearly
good enough. There's I think there's two elements to it.
On the one hand, like I'm just not good enough.
Like I'm six six, that's decent size for a wing.
It's certainly they not bad size of his six to
ten wingspan. That's not bad. I was a good athlete
for like Juco and Naia hoops. But trust me, I've
(23:09):
met a lot better athletes than me in my life.
That played my position. And that's the thing is like
there's a version of my life where I could have
gone and played overseas for a while and made it.
I'm I feel very confident that I could have gone
and played overseas and played for a while, just because
I competed with and against those guys my entire life,
and it was just the pathway of my life that
didn't go that way. But like I I've played with
(23:31):
NBA level talent, there's a there's a whole other level
there guys, even high level overseas talent, like the dudes
who are playing in like the top leagues in Europe
or in the NBL. Like there's a guy in Tucson
who plays in the NBL, has won multiple MVPs over there.
His name is Bryce Cotton. He comes home and plays
in the summertime and Tucson. I've competed with him dozens
(23:52):
of times over the years. Every time he comes home,
I'm reminded there's another level. There's another level to this
that you can get to. Like, so on the one hand,
what the talent, Like if I was six six and
six ten and a substantially a six ten wingspan and
substantially more athletic. Maybe there's something to be had there,
(24:13):
but like the reality is is I'm a mediocre sized
wing that is athletic for the dudes you're gonna meet
at your rec run, but not athletic compared to NBA players.
There's always levels to this. Like you guys have probably
seen videos of me playing basketball, and yeah, I can
put a put forward a reasonable fact simile of a
pro level wing that you know that looks like he
(24:34):
takes basketball very seriously, but it's it's just not the
same as playing at.
Speaker 1 (24:38):
That NBA level.
Speaker 2 (24:40):
Now, why didn't I end up playing a longer career overseas?
To make a long story short, I was a very
late bloomer. I didn't get to the point where I
was what I would consider to be a good basketball
player until I was like thirty years old. I didn't
play at all growing up. I played for the first
(25:00):
as a junior in high school and was like the
worst player on the team.
Speaker 1 (25:03):
And like I've.
Speaker 2 (25:04):
Told this story before, I literally like was like not
doing what I needed to do in school, but just
playing basketball every day my first two years of college,
and it like led to me getting all these bad grades,
which came back to be a problem when I was
trying to get eligible. But it got me good enough
at basketball to where I was able to play, and
I was good enough to play at the JUCO level,
(25:26):
and I was good enough to like get a scholarship,
and I eventually was able to rectify my academics and
get out onto the court. But like, by the time
I was like twenty three and coming out of my
last year at Arizona Christian I had really only played
three years of organized basketball, like real, like I'm playing
rotation minutes organized basketball. I had only played three seasons
(25:47):
in my entire human life. So like I was just
a super late bloomer and so over the Yeah, like
by the time I was twenty four, I was a
lot better than I was twenty three. When I was
twenty five, was a lot better than I was twenty four.
And then during the early part to COVID, I really
put in a ton of work. I was selling real
estate at the time, so I had a really flexible job,
and I you know, obviously didn't have kids at the time,
and I was like I'm just going to work my
(26:09):
butt off at basketball, and like they're in my thirties.
I got to the point where I was like, Okay,
I can really shoot the ball, I can really handle
the ball. I can actually read that high level basketball
as it's happening around me. Like, but it's like, what
am I going to do?
Speaker 1 (26:22):
Go?
Speaker 2 (26:23):
I was married and had a job and responsibilities. I
was trying to make this happen, So like what was
I going to do? Like be like, hey, honey, I'm
going to go take a low level gig overseas to
work my way up and maybe one day play in
one of the top leagues in Europe. Like it just
was a completely unrealistic a goal for me at that
(26:44):
point in time. To make a long story short, when
I was young enough to actually go overseas to play,
I actually wasn't good enough. I was big and athletic,
but I didn't have the polish that was necessary. And
by the time I got to the point where I
actually felt like I was good enough to go over
and play, it just didn't. But the thing is is
it was I was okay with that. Like it's hard
to explain, but like there was a time when I
(27:05):
was like twenty seven, twenty eight where I finally was
just like I'm at peace with the fact that it's
in my basketball journey is not going to manifest in
this way. You know, there will always be a part
of me that wonders, like, had I picked up a
basketball when I was ten and like played YMCA hoops
(27:25):
and like played club basketball, and then a dude who
played all four years of high school and was in
the rotation all four of those years, and like learning
the game at a faster pace earlier in my life. Like, yeah,
there's a version of that where I go play at
a mid major D one, or maybe, if I'm lucky,
a high major, and maybe I end up going to
play overseas and I do it for seven eight years
(27:48):
and then I come home. But like it's you know
how it is when you start thinking about life that way.
It's like it all, it all is dependent on each other.
Like I look at it on the flip side, and
it's like, Okay, I didn't pick up a basketball until
I was very old, and I was I wasn't nearly
good enough in time to accomplish some of my basketball goals.
(28:10):
But at the same time, I was lucky enough to
get my school paid for and even though I was
a flawed college basketball player. I was like athletic and
got to have some memories and you know, had some
hot shooting stretches and had some big dunks and had
you know, I had thirty one points in a game.
I had a half dozen games where I had over
twenty points. And I know what it's like to be
in a real college basketball game and score thirty points.
It's cool feeling. I wasn't good enough though. I wasn't
(28:31):
good enough to go do the things that I wanted
to do after I played. But then you start to
think it through and it's like, okay. So right after
I was done at Arizona Christian, instead of going to
play overseas, I went home. When I went home, I
met my wife. I love my wife. We are incredibly
happy together. We're literally up here in Colorado. She skis,
(28:51):
she played college basketball herself. She's athletics, she's in great shape.
She like, we work out together, we go skiing together.
She's the love of my life. I feel incredibly blessed
to be with her. And like, if I would have
accomplished those basketball things, I'm probably not with my wife right.
A second piece of it, like what about this, Like
(29:12):
my love for basketball and my competitiveness manifests in this job.
There's a version of this where like if I got
caught up playing overseas for six or seven years, I
might have come home and not been in a position
where I felt mentally ready to do something like this,
because maybe I scratched that it's in a different way
(29:32):
playing overseas, and then maybe I'm not lucky to be
in the position where I am right now working for
the volume and having this platform and having this opportunity
to literally be around the game every day of my life. Right, So,
like when I was like twenty seven, twenty eight years old,
I reached a point where like I was looking at
my wife and I was looking around at my life,
and I was like, I'm happy, Like I'm happy with this, Like, yeah,
(29:55):
sucks that I didn't get an opportunity to accomplish some
of my basketball goals. And there'll be a again. Every
once in a while. You get the itch a lot
of times, like like often when I'm just competing against
really high level talent and I'm playing well, and I'm like, man,
like I just wish I could have followed this more
through to conclusion. But it's just now it worked out.
(30:16):
I'm at peace with it. I'm very very happy to
say that I get to be around the game every
day in my life.
Speaker 1 (30:20):
Like literally, I.
Speaker 2 (30:21):
Played basketball today. I played five on five basketball today
for the first time in a month because I've been
dealing with some injuries and I you know, I had
re injured my ankle like four times over the course
of a month ever since I turned thirty two. I'm
thirty four now, but ever since I turned thirty two,
it's just been this like unending. First it was my achilles,
and now it's been this ankle issue, and I've had
(30:43):
various other little nagging things that have popped up along
the way. But like it's taken me away from the game.
Like I straight up couldn't play for the last month.
And so then over the last thirteen days, I did
thirteen consecutive days of shooting workouts and then lifting with
my wife at forty five, and I was like, all right,
I'm gonna go play some basketball today. And I went
(31:03):
and played, and I fucking had the time of my life.
I love playing basketball, and so it's like I still
get to experience that joy of playing and I just
have come to a good, healthy spot with it all.
But to come back to the after that super long
random DYA tribe, to come back to your question, I
(31:25):
didn't make it because I don't have the natural gifts
for it, and I was way too late to the game.
I think, I do think that I was good enough
to potentially play overseas, but it just didn't work out
that way. And I have a ton of respect for
those guys who have done that. I've gotten to meet
several of those guys, and I sit down and I
talk to them, and I hear about the grind, and
I hear about how like, like, I had a buddy
(31:49):
who played D one and went and played overseas for
the last seven or eight years. I worked out with
him a couple summers in a row, and like, I
would talk to him and he'd be like, yeah, man, I'd
come home and I would meet a girl, and then
like I'd be like, but I have this contract, so
I'm leaving in two months, and then the relationship would
just end. And then and he ended up actually meeting
somebody over there, and I think I think they moved
(32:10):
back to the States. So thankfully, that story has a
happy ending. But like when I was hearing that story,
I'm like, yeah, that that's tough. That's a tough life,
you know. So I have a ton of respect for
the guys who've gone over and done it. I think
it's so cool when I hear about it. I'm lucky
to say that I've gotten to work out with and
meet many of these really high, high level players that
have come out of my hometown. It's a life that
(32:31):
I kind of like, part of me wishes I could
have experienced, But at the same time, I'm.
Speaker 1 (32:36):
At peace with it all. Right.
Speaker 2 (32:39):
Next question, So you dismissed the point about Lebron having
a negative point differential by pointing to previous seasons when
he was better. Your argument boils down to Lebron had
an awesome career and his last season was bad, but
also an outlier.
Speaker 1 (32:52):
Therefore he's number eight. Cool.
Speaker 2 (32:55):
Okay, So what I I think there's this misconception here,
because I want to be clear, I'm not discounting the
on off percent, the on off numbers with Lebron just
simply as a statistical outlier, separate off any context.
Speaker 1 (33:11):
We have to dig into it.
Speaker 2 (33:13):
Right when I dug into it and I go, Okay,
Lebron did have a rough stretch. He had a stretch
there to start the season where I was like, he's
not playing very well. He wasn't bad, he wasn't like
actively hurting the team on every single possession, but he
wasn't playing very well. Then in the middle portion of
the season, like he legit was kicking ass, like there's
(33:36):
there's that's not a bad basketball player, that's a player
that's kicking ass. And then towards the end of the
year he was more in that second tier as he
was coming back from his groin injury. But as I
look at it, so it's like, first of all, Lebron's
playing better basketball. Lebron's playing better basketball than he did
last year. That is part of this. Secondly, the lineup data,
(33:57):
when you dug into it, Lebron was second on the
team in minutes behind Austin Reeves. So like, Lebron was
on the floor for most of the season, Lebron was
on the floor against the starters. Lebron was on the
floor closing those games, and the Lakers won fifty games
and were the three seed. So like, if if let's
just follow the path of the Lebron hater here to conclusion. Well,
(34:21):
you're insinuating is that Lebron James, the player who had
a positive on off differential every single year of his
career before then the majority of the year's massive on
off positive differentials. You're saying that this guy who more
or less looks at least as good as he was
the year before, if not a little better, but like
(34:43):
made second team All NBA, made thirteen the year before.
Obviously no tangible drop off, Like there was nothing we
were watching Lebron with last year where it's like, oh,
he sucks at that Now, No, like he's fine. He
looks more or less the same. He's on the floor
for all the pivotal moments of games. The Lakers are
winning all these games. You're trying to convince us that
(35:04):
the Lakers won fifty games in spite of Lebron even
though he looks like more or less the same player,
And it's an obvious statistical outlier when you compare it
to previous data. That's what I'm saying here. I'm saying,
if I was looking at it all, let's say that
he had a negative point differential, like all these positive differentials,
(35:27):
negative differential. But I'm watching the TV and it's like,
awesome Lebron, Awesome Lebron, Awesome, Lebron, awesome Lebron. Oh bad
Lebron bad. Point differential where it's like the eye test
is matching up with the numbers and the team's not
performing well and all of these different things come to fruition.
Then we can look at it and go, yeah, we
need to have a conversation about how Lebron's hurting the team.
(35:50):
But there you will find noise like that throughout this
sort of thing. I've pulled up a lot of on
off plus minuses there over the course of this Over
the course of this UH player rankings list, I can't
remember exactly what it was, but there was an offense
one with the Knicks with Jalen Brunson that didn't make
sense a year where they were like the same or
(36:12):
better when he was off the floor on offense. It
was either like last year in the playoffs or last year.
I can't remember exactly which which UH two years ago
in the playoffs. I mean, I can't remember which exact
data set it was. But I saw it and I
looked at the others and it was like they're clearly
way better on offense when he's on here. They're clearly
way better on offense when he's on here. They're clearly
(36:32):
way better when he's on offense when he's on here,
and here and here. This is clearly a statistical outlier. Like,
clearly something funky was going on here. It's not like
Jalen Brunson was fucking the team up on offense during
that time. Like that's the whole point is Like, if
you're what it is, in my opinion, super revealing that
you guys just don't like the guy, and like, look whatever,
(36:56):
you don't like the guy. But like, when you cling
to one single piece of data irrespective of all of
the surrounding information we have, you are revealing your bias. Okay,
when we have a piece of data and the surrounding
information leads us to believe that that piece of data
should be taken very seriously. Totally different conversation. But we
(37:19):
had the Bestlaker team in years, the best Lebron season
in years, Lebron more, Lebron was on the floor for
all of these pivotal moments, and you're trying to tell
us that he was hurting the team last year, like
because of this one piece of data that very clearly
has a lot of noise involved, and it just it's
just your again. I think you're just I think you're
(37:40):
just allowing your dislike for the guy to come through
for whatever reason, which leads perfectly into this next question. Hey, Jason,
the reason people hate Lebron isn't because he's Steph's rival.
It's because Steph is much more likable as a human.
Steph fans are used to humility when it comes to
their favorite player versus Lebron fans who are used to ego,
(38:02):
so it's much easier for them to respect a player
that's humble and fun.
Speaker 1 (38:06):
Here's the thing.
Speaker 2 (38:08):
And I know that I'll have some Lebron fans that'll
get super pissed off at me about this, But Lebron
fans are crazy, So what are you gonna do? So
are Steh fans sections of them? I should say Steph
is more likable than Lebron.
Speaker 1 (38:21):
He just is.
Speaker 2 (38:23):
Lebron is a showman. He has a massive ego. I'm
not even saying that Steph doesn't, but Lebron has a
massive outward ego. He's very melodramatic. He Lebron is just
a very unique type of human that comes off in
this very like like, uh, it's hard to explain. It's
(38:45):
like charisma mixed with it's not cockiness, but it's like
this outrageous amount of outward confidence in charisma and showman shit.
Like this is the guy who will like literally look
at the crowd and like ask for the applause and
do that kind of stuff. And I know Steph has
played to the crowd before, but Lebron just did it
a lot more over the course of his career. Steph,
(39:07):
on the other hand, is psycho competitive, will do some
of that stuff, is a showman, but he's much more
like tempered down compared to Lebron. I do think there
is a natural like this kind of attitude that rubs
people the wrong way. Like if you go around to
literally anybody who has like a big personality that's out
(39:31):
there and not afraid to carry themselves with confidence, it
comes with being polarized, like polarizing, right, like Steven A Smith.
A lot of people hate that dude, right, A lot
of people love him, but he's got a big group
of detractors because he's Stephen A Smith and he carries
himself the way Steven A.
Speaker 1 (39:50):
Smith does.
Speaker 2 (39:51):
He just has big energy, big confidence, big charisma. Some
people like it, some people don't like it. Right, Like
a lot of people here Aaron Rodgers talk and immediately
don't like the guy like it because of the cockiness
and the bravado that comes off of him. Steph is
just a more relatable, naturally behaving human and that I
(40:13):
think resonates with more people than it does with Lebron, Because,
like you know, this is the ultimate question, right, why
do so many people hate Lebron? Because there is legitimately
a substantially larger group of people who hates Lebron than
the group that hates Steph. And you got to ask
yourself why it can't just be because of winning, Because
even though I think Lebron obviously has a higher place
(40:35):
all time than Steph. Steph's a prettydamn accomplished basketball player,
has done a lot of winning in his life, But
like Steph, for whatever reason, just doesn't have that army
of haters. And I think it just stems from the
fact that for Lebron just rubbs some people the wrong way.
Speaker 1 (40:48):
It is what it is.
Speaker 2 (40:50):
I'm like, I don't care I'm a basketball fan, so
I look at both of them and irrespective of what
their personalities bring to the table, I like to look
at them as these two different, completely unique basketball players.
But there are a lot of people who cannot see
past that with Lebron, and so they just hate the
guy and it clouds the way they view him as a
(41:11):
basketball player. Like I'm that part frustrates me. I agree,
but I tend to agree that I think Steph is
a more naturally likable person. All right, Hey, Jason, I
was wondering what your take on the recent Warrior System
narratives floating around that both stars and role players don't
want to come to the Warriors because they don't want
their only job to just be passing the ball to Steph.
(41:34):
Do you think players are indeed diminished in the Warrior
System compared to others. Do you think this perception has
affected their ability to acquire players. No, I think that
anybody would want to play with Steph, or would want
to play with Luca, or would want to play with
these guys. I do think that there is a natural like, oh,
my game fits with this type of person attitude that
(41:55):
you'll see out there, right, So, for instance, like if
you're a guy who can like shoot on the move
and do more stuff off the bounce, you're gonna probably
want to play in a five out system because if
you're gonna go and I'm talking about role players, I
should say people who are not stars, you're gonna want
to go play somewhere where you can play off the bounce,
(42:18):
and so like, yeah, you may not want to go
play alongside Luka Doncic and stand in the corner, right,
But then if.
Speaker 1 (42:26):
You're a shooter, like a spot up shooter, you.
Speaker 2 (42:30):
May not want to go play somewhere where you're gonna
have to put the ball on the floor and make decisions, right. So,
like here's the thing, Like the Warriors run a very
exaggerated version of five out offense compared to other teams
in the league just because they have a guy that
comes off of screens more than anyone else and just
in general, they just have a roster that is like
tailor made for that offense. But there are other systems
(42:52):
around the league that run similar actions, so does Indiana,
and Indiana runs a lot of like Chicago action and
like split cuts, like all these different things that are
natural five out concepts, and again five out. All the
five out basketball is is you don't have anybody permanently
occupying a space under the rim. They'll drive to the rim,
(43:13):
they'll cut to the rim, they'll roll to the rim,
they'll you know, relocate under the rim. But for the
most part, everyone's moving around, and five out tends to
have more side to side movement and more ball and
player movement and more actions run per possession, whereas four
out is more of like a spacing principle. Guy in
the left corner, guy in the right corner, guy on
the right wing. I'm dribbling on the left wing, They're
(43:36):
going to come set a ball screen and then roll.
Or that guy's gonna sit in the dunker spot while
I ISO and I'm gonna try to break the defense down,
he'll be staying there. I'll throw the lob right. There
are all these different sets you can run out of it.
But obviously a four out approach is more catered to
a small amount of ball handling. So a couple of
guys who are gonna handle the majority of the ball
handling responsibility and then play finishers. You're either gonna shoot
(43:59):
at drive a close out or finish at the rim right,
Whereas in a five out system there's a lot more demanding.
Speaker 1 (44:07):
There's a lot more demand.
Speaker 2 (44:09):
On other ball handling, Like more people are going to
touch the ball in every possession. Interior playmaking is more important.
Guys who can play on the role, Guys who can
play on the short role, that sort of thing. So
like I do think that there are players that look
at Golden State and go that's not the right system
for me. But then I think there are players who
look at Golden State and go that is the right
(44:30):
system for me. I saw the name Ben Simmons floating around, Like,
do I think Ben Simmons is a substantial needle mover
for the Warriors. No, But like Ben Simmons is a
guy that, in theory could kind of be a functioning
big in Golden State system. Because what is Golden State's
system tax bigs to do to pass to guys running
(44:54):
in and out of split cuts as they have the
ball in the post, to short roll off of steph
to run dribble handoffs with their guards as they come
running off of action, and then to roll into space.
Like all of that kind of aligns with what Bensimmon's
skill set is so like to me. To me, it
just kind of depends on the player. And similarly, like
you know, let's take Dorian Finney Smith with the Lakers.
(45:17):
I think he's a four out player. I think he
needs to be playing where he's catching the ball wide
open in the corner, wide open on the wing. I
think if you ask Dorian Finney Smith to play in
the Warriors system, you'd find out pretty quick that he's
too small to be a big and he doesn't handle
the ball well enough to really function in their high paced,
read and react offense. So like, I think that kind
(45:39):
of dictates it more than any sort of like like
vendetta that any one player would have against a team.
I saw a discussion on Twitter about a hypothetical one
on one, and I'm curious about your take Kawhi Leonard
versus Kevin Durant. The assumption is, of course, that both
are healthy and at their peak. We saw Kadie drop
fifty on the Raptors back in twenty nineteen, but Kawhi
wasn't consistently guarding him every possession to his offensive role,
(46:01):
So I'm curious how Kawhi's strength and defensive instincts counter
Kd's length and offensive craftsmanship. Kauhi is still an underrated
scorer while KD is an underrated defender. My question is
how big is the gap between the two KD on
offense versus Kawhi on offense and UH and vice versa
on defense. As a biased Kawhi fan, He's got my vote,
but would love to hear your input. This one is
(46:22):
really interesting because you said hypothetical one v one, So
I do think that Kawhi would beat.
Speaker 1 (46:28):
Kevin Durant in one on one. The reason why is
Kawhi has.
Speaker 2 (46:33):
Such a physical strength advantage, So like when he's guarding Kevin,
he's going to be able to put his hands on
him and really hold him physically in place and force
him into extremely difficult over the top jump shots. On
the flip side, Kawhi, whenever he wants to get to
his spot, can just drop his shoulder and hit KD
(46:55):
and create the separation he needs to get to his
short range shot making, which is going to be really
both with his ability to get separation there, it'd be close,
but I could see Kawhi beating Kevin Durant in a
strict one on one. But I do think Kevin Durant,
when he would was at his peak, was a better
basketball player overall than Kawhi Leonard because basketball is not.
Speaker 1 (47:15):
One on one.
Speaker 2 (47:16):
I talked about a game when I was doing our
Greatest Peaks video after the Anthony Edwards episode, if you
guys remember, just literally on Wednesday, and I talked about
I talked about Kevin Durant's best game, which was Game
three of the twenty eighteen NBA Finals, and it was like.
Speaker 1 (47:34):
He had.
Speaker 2 (47:36):
Forty thirty points and thirteen rebounds and seven assists. He
dominated that game as like a floor general, And there's
a level of like running five on five offense that
I think kd was better than Kawhi at kad as
his best, at his best as a passer was a
substantially better passer than Kawhi ever was. I think Kadie's
(47:57):
ability to play in and out of action is better
than Kawi's ability to play in and out of action. Like, yeah,
give me Kawhi post ups and high post ups and
ISOs sure, but like kt is a guy that like
is legitimately a high volume off of screen shooter and
a guy that can play pick and roll at an
extremely high level when he was at his peak. And
so yeah, like, sure, Kawhi Leonard could beat KD one
(48:20):
on one just because he could physically maul him, But
in five on five basketball games, I think KD was
the better basketball player even looking at a defense like
Kawhi's value as an on ball defender can only be
used in one spot, like Kd's value as a rim
protector and rebounder when he was at because KD was
a really solid rebounder when he was at his peak, right, Like,
(48:41):
I think the gap between KD and Kawhi defensively is
actually pretty small. In the team context. Kui is a
better defender, but KD makes it pretty close with all
of his versatility on that end of the floor. And
by the way, KD was a pretty good one on
one defender as well. Right on the offensive end of
the floor two e lead scorers, KD maybe a much
better at just like physical bullyball one on one stuff,
(49:03):
but in versatility of scoring and the ability to play
make and pass at a different action and score off
the move out of different action that to me, it
gives him a pretty substantial gap as an offensive player
over Kawhi two more quick ones. How do we contextualize
Wemby's lack of playoff experience when it's a huge part
of the road to the title. As per your criteria,
(49:24):
you want a player from October to June, but we
have little idea of what Wemby would look like in
that environment. And if his offense is robust enough to
handle the intensity in the defense of the playoffs, well,
I think he's easily a top ten regular season player.
I have a hard time putting him ahead of players
that are slightly worse regular season players like Brunson or Mitchell,
but have already shown themselves as elite playoff performers. Great
episode as per usual. Thanks for the breakdown, Thanks for
(49:44):
supporting the show. Here's the thing, Yeah, there's some question
marks regarding Wemby as an offensive player in the playoffs.
There's a version of it where in his first playoff
series he averages sixteen points per game on forty nine
percent shooting because he just gets physically mauled and double
teamed then and he struggles with it, and he's also
(50:05):
going to dominate that series on defense. Wemby has an
extremely high floor in the playoffs. Because he's the best
defensive player in the world and can We've actually seen
this where like guys can actually leverage that up a
level like Yannis being able to all of a sudden
be two places at once and he race a lob
when he's guarding the damn ball and pick and roll, Like,
(50:27):
there is a level that Wemby's going to be able
to get too defensively in the postseason. That makes his
impact already pretty close to the top guys. And so yeah,
if he can if he can get to even just
twenty points per game on fifty six percent through shooting,
he's already a top ten playoff player. And if he
can that, if he gets up to the point where
he's scoring effectively in the postseason while being the best
(50:48):
defensive player, that's where we're talking about a guy who's
a candidate for the best player in the world, And
that's where I think he can get in the next
couple of years. Last one, Hi Jason loved the show.
I had a question relating to NBA fans. I can't
believe some of the comments I see here. Makes me
wonder if people come to podcasts like this to actually
enjoy their time or not. Do you ever get discouraged
doing rankings like these? No matter how you rank them,
(51:10):
people will be upset. So you just get better at it.
It's hard to explain. It's honestly, it's encouraging to me
because like obviously the negativity got to me more when
I first started doing this. As I always say, like
it never stops getting to you, like every once in
a while, like I'll just get it a you know,
when I'm looking through for a mail bag, I'll just
(51:32):
see someone it's just being an asshole. And it's like
every time you're like it just bums you out right
because like I'm sitting on the couch, like my dogs
are sitting next to me, you know, I'm enjoying a
cup of coffee, just working, and then all of a sudden,
someone just talks some crazy shit like like right to
your face, right, like it's weird, and that part never
goes away, but you just get better at it, and
(51:54):
like it bothered me a lot early on, but like thankfully,
like I'm three years and three and a half years
into doing this for the volume, and even in just
three and a half years, I'm so so so much
better at just like rolling with the punches and not
letting that stuff get to me. Again, I've told you
guys this before, but the rationalization is pretty simple, Like
why would I get upset about you know, a dozen
(52:18):
trolls under each video and maybe one or two really
mean comments when the video has, you know, in the
NBA playoffs over fifty thousand views on average, right, Like,
I'm just not going to get overly worked up about
that when it's just a small number of bad actors,
when the majority of you guys are just normal dudes
(52:38):
like me who love the game who are coming in
for some basketball analysis. I know the feeling. I like,
I've listened to basketball pods, especially before I did this
for a living, Like I most of you guys are
just people like me who love basketball and who are
good people who are living normal, good lives in our
(53:00):
you know, managing a relationship and maybe raising a family
and dealing with your own family whatever stuff you've got
going on. Like we're all just in the grind, being
normal people. And then there are just these bad actors
out there, and like you just have to kind of
find a way to compartmentalize them by reminding yourself that
there's just so much more normal behavior going on. But again,
(53:23):
the truth of the matter is that it never gets
not weird. It always is like a little jarring to
read someone being an asshole, but like, you just get
better at it. And the fact that I'm doing this
well at three and a half years makes me feel
optimistic that, you know, ten years in it should be
something that bothers me very little. But the truth of
the matter is, just like anything else in life, you
(53:43):
just get better with reps. Every time you do something,
you get a little better at it, and that's kind
of more or less what it's like dealing with trolls.
All right, guys, that's all I have for today is
always to sincerely appreciate you guys for supporting me and
supporting the show. I hope you guys have an amazing weekend.
Next week's gonna be a little different. No mailbag next weekend.
We're gonna do number four on Monday, number three on Wednesday,
and the number two and number one on Friday, So
(54:04):
player rankings Pact week.
Speaker 1 (54:05):
I will see you guys then,
Host
Jason Timpf
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Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
The Clay Travis and Buck Sexton Show
The Clay Travis and Buck Sexton Show. Clay Travis and Buck Sexton tackle the biggest stories in news, politics and current events with intelligence and humor. From the border crisis, to the madness of cancel culture and far-left missteps, Clay and Buck guide listeners through the latest headlines and hot topics with fun and entertaining conversations and opinions.