Today Zuri is joined by Meena Harris — Founder and CEO of Phenomenal, and the NYT Bestselling author of “Ambitious Girl” and “Kamala and Maya's Big Idea.” Meena dishes on her favorite Netflix shows to binge, how she’s redefining gender roles with her partner Nic Ajagu, and what was going through her head during the 2021 Biden/Harris inauguration. She even shares a recipe inspired by her aunt, THEE Madame Vice President herself, Kamala Harris.
Plus, Meena takes us on the journey of how she was able to pivot as a corporate lawyer, to combine her passion for art and social impact to disrupt the status quo. And she opens up about why ambition isn’t a dirty word, but instead that it means courage and living your purpose. Let us know your favorite part of the convo: @ZuriHall + @HotHappyMess.
Read the Show Notes for the full list of resources + links from today’s episode.
Follow @ZuriHall and @HotHappyMess on Instagram to keep the good vibes going.
Recent episodes: if ya feel like bingeing:
ICYMI: Listen to Episode 13: Bachelorette Tayshia Adams on Finding Love, Her Dream Wedding with Zac, and Embracing her Biracial Identity!
ICYMI: Listen to Episode 8: Beauty Boss Jackie Aina is a Forvr MOOD | An AlphaBabe Spotlight
ICYMI: Listen to Episode 6: Is It Time for You to Pivot?! (ft. Deepica Mutyala) | Happiness + Peace
Go back to the beginning --- ICYMI: Listen to Episode 1: How to Be Happy
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:07):
Hot Happy Mess Celebrate your magic in the middle of
life's messes. Hot Happy. I'm Zeri Hall and this is
Hot Happy Made. What is up you guys, and welcome
back to another episode of Hot Happy Mess. I am
your host, Suri Hall, and this is the spot where
(00:31):
you can kick back, relax. You are in a safe
space and we are celebrating the magic in the middle
of our messes. I kind of stuffed a little bit there,
did you catch it? Kind of slurred my words. No,
I'm not drunk, I'm sober. It is a nice afternoon
and sunny Los Angeles, California, and sometimes I get tongue tied. Okay, okay,
(00:52):
I'm really super pumped to give you guys today's alphababe spotlight,
as you know hopefully by now. If you don't, I'll
do a quick refresh her. What's an alpha baby, you
may ask, Well, I'm glad you did it. Is she is,
I should say, an unapologetically ambitious and mindful millennial woman
who is designing a life that she loves and she leaves.
(01:14):
She knows what she wants and she ain't afraid to
work for it. You know, this juxtaposition of alpha and
babe is all about embracing our duality. And that's why
I started this social movement, this concept years ago when
I launched my alphabab blog because I was sick of
being told that I had to be one or the other.
We can be smart and sexy, strong and soft. We
(01:36):
can be a hard working badass and a self care connoisseur,
a balance of substance and style. We do not have
to choose. Embrace your duality, girl, you got this okay?
For today's Alpha Babe spotlight, we are highlighting an amazing woman,
I should say, phenomenal woman. Mina Harris was born into
a family of strong women whose legacy continues to inspire her.
(01:59):
We had an amazing conversation I'm so excited for you
to listen to in just a few minutes here. Her
grandmother was a cancer researcher and civil rights activist. Her
mother is a lawyer and policy expert. Her aunt, Kamala Harris,
is a former United States Senator from California and the
newly inaugurated Vice President of these United States of America.
(02:21):
Thank you very much, Madam Vice President. We love an
m VP. Love to see it. Mina herself is a
lawyer and an entrepreneur. In sen she founded the Phenomenal
Woman Action Campaign, which is a female powered organization that
brings awareness to social causes. You've probably seen those awesome
Phenomenal Woman T shirts based off of the Maya Angelou poem.
(02:43):
Of course I'm gonna have to get a T shirt, Mina,
pick it up. I need a T shirt. Mina currently
resides in San Francisco with her partner and their two daughters,
and you probably saw her family looking all types of
adorable and stylish if you watched this year's historic Inaugura ration,
or of course, her aunt Kamala Harris, made history as
(03:04):
the United States first female vice president, the highest ranking
female official in US history, and the very first African
American and first Asian American vice president. I love Mina's
perspective on ambition. It's so similar to mine, and it's
so reassuring and empowering to hear about other women who
(03:27):
have always had this this ambition just burning in the
in their blood and in their veins, and it's so
exciting to see how other women manifest their ambition and
what that looks like to them, And for me personally,
it's super fascinating to learn about how other women have embraced,
sometimes struggled or grappled with, and or encouraged other women
(03:51):
young and old to own their ambition, particularly because we're
all about happiness, about embrace, a seeing joy and the
things that light us up here on how happy mess.
I love this quote that Mina gave on another platform.
She said, finding joy, even by accident, can be a
radical act for women, especially for women of color. It's
(04:14):
as if stumbling upon happiness distracts us from what we're
quote unquote supposed to be doing, giving, sacrificing, caring for
anyone but ourselves. Meanwhile, doggedly pursuing joy or passionately going
after anything at all is often the surest way to
earn yourself the label of quote unquote too ambitious or
simply too much. If that ain't the truth, y'all, I
(04:38):
don't know what it is. I want to clap my hands,
but I also don't want to make them mic peak
with the audio. In a column that you wrote for
l Mina said, as I've gotten older, I've come to
realize that not everyone sees ambition the same way my
family does. And the hair's household, ambition means courage, it
means living your purpose. But to a whole lot of
other people, ambition women's and ah and that is is
(05:01):
code for taking up space that wasn't intended to be yours.
As my aunt showed us, when we encourage ambitious girls,
they become ambitious women, and ambitious women can break barriers,
shatter ceilings, and win. And if that ain't the truth,
I don't know what is. In the words of her
amazing aunt, our current vice president, dream with ambition, lead
(05:24):
with conviction, and see yourselves in a way that others
may not enjoy. This conversation with Mina Harris. Mina Harris,
thank you so much for joining us on the podcast today.
So excited to have you on Hot Happy Mess. How
we feeling? Um, you know, I was laughing to myself
because I'm like, I think it's called hot happy bess,
and I am still in the just hot best phase.
(05:47):
So but you know, I'm happy, but it's uh, overshadowed
at this point in time by what a hot mess
I am. So I don't know if I can say
we like to happy mess. Oh. The thing is, there
is no balance, That's what it's all about is just
like if we're waiting for that, we'll be waiting forever
(06:07):
for those skills to set. So it's just embracing all
of the above at the same time. Wait, why are
we feeling hot mess right now? I gotta have hot
happy mess. I think is actually a great way to
just think about my house right now, which is it is.
You know, it's joy and fun and you know, really
important quality time with my kids and my family, But
(06:29):
it's a mess and it's everything you know, collapsed into
one in closed space. It all happening out one time.
So you know, it's just a lot. Uh. And I
have to sometimes pause and like remind myself of you know,
if I feel like I'm approaching burnout or I'm just
Exhausted's like this this is not this is still not
normal right in terms of the day to day of it.
(06:50):
And um, I think things are looking up and you know,
hopefully we'll get the vaccine soon and there's lots of
things I think to be hopeful and optimistic um towards,
But you know, it's still a lot day to day
it is. It is absolutely a lot. I love that
you bring up the fact um that you know burnout
is the thing that you also deal with as we
all do, um, and I would love to dive more
(07:11):
into that and sort of your alarm system how you
listen to your body and your feelings, your emotions and
handle the burnout. But before we dive into that, particularly
with you being this amazing badass career woman and being
so ambitious, which I cannot wait to dive into the
meat up on this conversation, I want to do a
little bit of an icebreaker with you. Are hot, happy
(07:32):
mess audience, So this is rapid fire. I'm like the
old school. I'm the news Access Hollywood, like we like
our games are rough. Okay, you're going I prepare, yes,
kind of, it's all. It's gonna be great. You're gonna
love it. It's It's sweet, sweet and simple. Um, whatever
comes to your mind. First, First up, what is your
favorite TV show on Netflix? Brig Tin, I'm like, who,
(07:55):
I can't even get it out. I'm so excited about
the show, um, so bridgertain. I am obsessed with this
show and I have so many thoughts about about it
and just like the why I think it appeals to
different audiences and I just I mean, Shaanda rhymes like
I could go on and on other ones. I'm trying
to think Ozark was when I really got into that
(08:15):
was more like a pandemic thing. But anyway, that and
um uh sorry, I have to look it up. I see.
This is why I like, I can't just like recall
shows off top of my head. But another one I
was so obsessed with, and it's um a friend Journey
small and who's in it with the Lovecraft? Of course
I haven't, but I've heard great things. It's so good.
(08:39):
And it was another one that I think, like if
you asked me and like this sort of setting like
rapid fire, like do you like sci fi or do
you I would say, like, no, probably not, but it's
so amazing and it's it's sci fi. It's sort of
like there's a horror aspect to it. And you know, um,
Journey and oh my god, what is the other actor name?
I just I'm obsessed with um with the whole show.
(09:01):
I'm gonna have to look up Lovecraft. I love Jonathan
Major Jakay, Okay, got it. Yeah, he's just so talented,
both of them, they're so talented. Yeah, So yeah, I
would say that's amazing Lovecraft. Bridgertain absolutely no doubt. I
feel like I've talked to so many people during my
interviews for work where they're like, yeah, I was watching
(09:23):
Bridgerton and then my husband walked in and was like,
what the hell is happening? What in the what in
the soft sporting going on? But I absolutely loved the
season start to finish, and it's so overdue. Obviously we've
all been waiting for Shonda to to make her Netflix debut,
so I absolutely love that not only was it critically acclaimed,
but that it's killing it for the streamer too. You
(09:46):
share a birthday with with your aunt. What's the one
thing that you love most about your birthday? Twin? What
what is it about Kamala that you just and this
is you know, politics aside, just as speaking for your aunt,
um at this point, it's funny. I mean, throughout the campaign,
(10:06):
it was fun to see her share herself, you know,
literally share her in a way that UM, I think
it was different than before where people really got to
know her in a more intimate way than you know previously.
So I don't have anything juicy for you, like, uh,
and I say that to say that it's it's awesome
that people know this about her now, but it's far
(10:26):
and away her cooking. Um, like the number one thing
my whole life that I would say. You know, there's
lots of things, but that stuff, the cooking, Yeah, which
again everybody knows about it now, which is great. Yeah.
So wait, what's your go to dish? What's your favorite dish?
It depends now, meaning that I make, did that? She
(10:49):
makes that? You make that that? Maybe you both make?
Who one ups the other? Um, I'm trying to think.
I mean there's so many. Uh well, all the funny
thing is I remember she had made this roast chicken,
and I'm like, I don't I'm weird. I just like
always thought that I wasn't a roast chicken. Like if
I everyone a restaurant, I will never ever ever order chicken.
(11:11):
I think it's so weird from like if you're gonna
go to a restaurant, why would you or or something
like I know, but it's just like it's just more
like why did you go out of your way to
do something basic? Okay? Yeah? Yeah, although there are places
like um that if you're like known for it and
it's like okay, you have to order it fine. Anyway,
So I always felt like, I'm not that into it,
(11:33):
and she had made this roast chicken and I was like,
oh my god, this is the best roast chicken my
whole life. And then fast forward to the pandemic and
I started learning how to roast chicken. I figured out, okay,
I've heard of my life. Yeah, okay, so that's like
(11:53):
one of my go to that I've now found. You know,
I had this like bias against chicken and roast ends,
and now I figured out how to do it myself.
It's also one of those things that it feels like
so daunting if you've never done it, and it's actually
so easy. But it just takes like, you know, getting
a good like method and and it's just honestly, I
(12:15):
have never roasted a chicken in my life. Now I
kind of want to try it. I think I might
try it this weekends. I would encourage you. There's so
many the New York Times, like the buttermilk uh marrined
from the New York Times. Look that up. It is
life changing. Okay, So all right, that's what I'm gonna
do this weekend. Alright. I appreciate the recommendation. I'm curious
(12:39):
to know. I heard that your four year old is
a chef, likes to be in the kitchen. What is
the most interesting thing that she has made thus far?
It depends on how you define interesting. Oh, it could
be terrible, it could be I don't want interesting also
mean like tasty or nope, nope, no, this could be well.
And she's been yeah, I mean she's been going around
(13:02):
kind of like probably sharing this with everyone, which is
that she took leftover spaghetti carbonara that I had made, which,
as a side note, like it's just such a funny
thing with kids, like you obviously want to encourage them
to you know, explore their interests and no matter what
they may be, and not try to tell them to
(13:23):
do it in a certain way or in a certain
mold or whatever. So we have the spahetti carbonara, and
she it was like Taco Tuesday. We do that in
our house, and so she wanted to put the spaghetti
inside of the tacos and so like a lot of
carbs going on, no doubt, you know, it was basically
spaghetti carbonar inside of a casidia. I think we put
(13:45):
cheese in its still, so you know, does I guess
it's kind of like eating spaghetti with like bread. It's
like sandwich, but that's the same. Okay, Okay, I just don't.
I'm not, you know, in terms of taste and texture,
Like shoveling a taco of spaghetti into my office is
(14:06):
not the most you know. That was My next question
is did you sample the delicacy that was this carbonara casadilla? Well,
now I feel guilty because I actually didn't. I should have.
She only made one and she was I wanted this
child to like eat her dinner and be full, so
(14:27):
I wasn't trying to, you know, but You're right, I
should have just a little nibble. Okay, I love it.
Character Yeah, that's awesome. Okay. What is the beauty product
you cannot live without? Oh? My god, I mean generally
like under eye Constuleruh do we have a favorite one?
(14:47):
Are you asking about brands to if you have one
like that your go to for I'm a big I
would say yeah. I would say, like if I were
to shout out something that I was like, I can't
live without, you know whatever. You can get concealer anywhere.
But I'm actually wearing it now. It's kind of probably
like looking greasy because at the end of the day,
but it's this, um it's called a Hugh stick. It's
(15:10):
my tinted tinted yeah, live tinted, and it is uh
it is like my there's I don't know, like made
five things that have been like really key for my
pandemic living and this is like number one on the
list because it's just so easy and you literally like
swipe it on. I've been using a brush lately, but
(15:32):
like really fast kind of move it up or you
can use your finger and it like it looks like something.
So I on one hand, I've become much more comfortable
just like not wearing makeup at all on a lot
of meetings and zooms, which is awesome. I'm glad about.
Like I think it's just the confidence of like not
getting a fun time. I don't there have been speaking
(15:56):
of hot happy mess where I'm like, hey, I know
that I would like a mess and I'm sorry I
don't have time to put myself together. Like I just
know how that energy or effort to make today. So sorry, Um,
You're like the fact that I'm here is enough. It's
like I just yeah, like that's that that alone was
a big effort um. But yeah, if I'm doing something
where I feel like I want to wear makeup, it's
(16:18):
just so easy and I normally use uh it's I
think the shade is called true, so I use that
on my eyes. And the thing that's cool about it
is that it's also it's like an all over things
and you can put it on your cheeks, you can
put it on your lips and then click gloss over it.
Or it's just so easy and it's like effortless, but
it's like you look like you made effort. Oh my gosh.
(16:39):
And that's when I love like that's one of my favorites.
To the Houstick. We had Deep Begun on the podcast
probably like a few weeks ago. Now I'm about a
month ago talking about pivoting in your career and your
personal life, and I swear by the Houstick and then
the Unity bone you like do a little gloss bone.
It's just game changing. Yeah, they have a lot of
al Right, it's like easy products. Yes, everybody you guys know,
(17:02):
but just in case live tinted check it out. Shout
out to deepca love the brand um and also just
so inclusive and when it comes to representation across the spectrum. Uh,
the Housticks really do the job. So I'm with you
on that one. I want to dive into um Mina
Harris the woman. Obviously, you have this amazing brand that
(17:22):
you're building with phenomenal and I want to get to
where you are with it now. But for our listeners
who might be newer to your story or your journey
to where you are now, just kind of break it down.
When you look at your college years, your early twenties,
who was Mina then? What did she think she wanted
out of life? And then how did she sort of
evolve into where you've landed now. That's a big question. Uh,
(17:48):
if I really try to like boil it down, I
think that I this is gonna sound super cheesy, but
I have known since I was very young that I
was or that I am creative and entrepreneurial. I on
the one hand, you know, on one side, I was
(18:09):
like the kid and you know, thanks to my family
who saw that and encouraged it, I was in art
camp all summer long, so I was really into visual
arts at a young young age. Um, it was like
it was this art camp in Oakland. It actually still exists,
which is so amazing and I want to take my
girls there and when things open back up. But um,
you know, they had like a morning session, an afternoon session,
(18:31):
and then it was split up into like two week
sessions like throughout the summer, and most kids that attended
the camp would go to like just the morning session
for two weeks for the you know two week program.
I did mornings and afternoons for the entire summer um,
which you know was also like in some ways I
think it was I loved it, but it was also
(18:51):
like you know, single mom, like I need somebody you know,
I needed to have my kid occupied like all day
long all summer. And luckily, you know, I loved it
and just all worked out anyway. So there was that.
And then I just like as early as I possibly
you know, could, like I always had a job. Um.
I remember, like you know, my dad's sisters. I would
be like, is there anything eny helped with? Like both
(19:13):
of them are teachers, Like can you pay me to?
Like I was always doing you know kind of like
having side jobs, and that um continued throughout college, right
Like I was always I both did art stuff. Um,
I was not in class that much. I was you know,
doing UM mural art programs in East Palo Alto, which
is where I spent a majority of my time, and
(19:34):
then I had like seven jobs. Anyway, I think that
was all part of what I think has been sort
of within me and my ultimately my passion. But what's
interesting is, you know, I didn't have a lot of
like models for that growing up. UM. I had incredible
role models in other areas, which were, uh, you know,
social justice and in activism and in public interest law.
(19:55):
And therefore, I think it's probably not a huge surprise
that I, you know, ended up going to law school.
And I went to law school with the intention of
you know, yes, following in their footsteps of you know,
making positive change in the world with UM, with legal
you know it within the legal field, and with my
law degree. UM. And I think, you know that stuff
is obviously what I'm doing today is still super important,
(20:16):
right it's UM about social justice and all of the
things I just mentioned. But I think what I discovered,
and you know, after kind of being on that traditional
path for a while and kind of checking you know,
a lot of kind of boxes of doing you know,
what I thought was prestigious or kind of building you know,
my career in a traditional that my legal career in
a traditional way. UM, I learned that, you know, you
(20:37):
can make impact, you can have a you know, you
can make positive change in the world, um, through other ways,
right through being an entrepreneur, through building a brand, and
UM it took you know a while for me to
get there right and to understand that. And also there's
just so much that goes into it, right, Like it's
just you know, the intersection of a bunch of kind
of perfect moments where I had worked long enough it
(21:00):
felt like I had done enough in my traditional you
know career and frankly checked enough boxes that I was
willing to kind of like take that risk. Um. By
the way, I didn't even fully take the risk until
last year when I finally left my my job, my
full time job, and you know that I was financially
stable where I could take the risk of not having
like a study income or not knowing right what that
(21:22):
looked like. Um, there's just so much that goes into it,
and I will acknowledge that, you know, it's a huge
privilege to be able to like walk away from um,
you know, a really uh study and UM, I think,
you know, stable like interesting, you know, career and job,
which is what I was doing, um, you know, in
and out of tech industry and the legal field. So um.
(21:43):
But I think the point is, you know, I'm definitely
doing what I think I always dreamed of doing. In
the back of my head. I was like looked at
people who you know, had started businesses or own companies
and thought like, oh, would be so cool to do that.
But I just didn't know what that thing was or um,
you know how out of me real kind of like
concrete path towards it and quite the opposite I felt,
(22:05):
you know, kind of towards the end of the time
at my law firm, I was feeling this anxiety of
like who am I and what am I going to do?
And who am I going to be? You know, Uh,
do you feel like your identity was sort of wrapped
up in those boxes that you felt that maybe pressure
to check whether it was societal or otherwise. It was
definitely like self pressure, and to the extent it was
(22:26):
like external. I think it was about me having whatever
issues around like how people perceived me in in sort
of achieved the context of achievement, right, Like I remember
having this sort of feeling of well, I have, you know,
wanting to do things that other that people and yeah,
as you said, society right view as impressive, right, the
you know, prestigious pulling, the clerkship, the prestigious law firm
(22:50):
that right, I mean, and a lot of that I
think are are good sort of motivations, and I would
distill them down to you know, not elitism, but um excellence.
Where I was, I very much had that sort of
immigrant influence, you know, especially from my grandmother and modeled
through my mom and aunt, which is achievement and right
and working hard and academic excellence right. So and again
(23:13):
to their credit, I was never told like, oh you
have to be a lawyer or a doctor, right, um,
And I feel very grateful for that. But yeah, I
remember distinctly I was dating Nick and we were doing
long distance between DC and New York. I was at
my law firm. He was um in the tech industry
in New York City, and we were going back and
forth literally every week um to see each other and
(23:33):
kind of switching off, you know, week to week. And
there came a point where I knew like, okay, I
might be in my law firm for maybe another year,
but I'm not trying to stay here forever. And it
was this question of, like do I move to New
York and go to the New York office of my
law firm, And at that time, I felt like that
would be a miserable thing to do, and if I'm
gonna like move wide do the same thing that I
knew I didn't want to sort of be doing long term.
(23:54):
And then I had this in the back of my head,
like why I would love to be like in media
or marketing or at chising. But the thought of like
starting from the beginning, uh, in those spaces that I
had literally zero, you know, exposure to our experience in
felt very I don't know, I guess I don't want
to sound like I think that it's important for people
(24:15):
to you know, be willing to kind of like I
don't want to. Freeman is like, oh, at the start
at the bottom, Like, I think that's a that's not
a great way to frame it. But there was some
feeling of like, you know, I worked, I work, I
put in so many years to like get to the
place where I was that we've got yeah, And it
was like, damn, how do I kind of you know,
(24:36):
shift this so that I can build on that versus
feeling like I'm almost like throwing it away and starting over.
Maybe that's a better way of praising it, you know.
And luckily I was led, you know to this moment
where I kind of was able to do that, and
that because I did myself, right. Um. I instead of
you know, maybe going into an advertising agency or learning
(24:57):
the trade and the craft in that traditional andtitutional way,
I decided like, okay, I'm just gonna go try to
play around and test it myself and like see what happens,
you know. And again, it wasn't that intentional like it was. Uh,
it was me kind of doing my part and and
wanting to you know, do something meaningful coming out of
the election. I didn't started and say, Okay, I know
(25:19):
that I'm interested in marketing and advertising and creative you know, content,
and so I'm going to start a brand. Like That's
not how the story goes, right, Um. But I think
it was pretty doing yeah, and understanding that, you know,
if you do have passions or interests or skills that
are outside of you know, you're like nine to five,
(25:39):
right or whatever kind of you know, career pathy may beyond.
There are like ways to keep up, keep that up
and feed it that you know may not literally lead
you to this thing. But for me, you know, having
I had this like T shirt that preceded Phenomenal, and
that really was you know, it was like this kind
of silly side thing that's off in its own way.
(26:01):
It was much more narrowly focused on you know, entrepreneurs.
You know that that was telling and that ended up
being kind of the seed for you know, when the
moment came, I like, could I could do something? And
I did something and still find no idea where it's
gonna be, Like, had no idea that I'd still be
here four years later. Yeah, And at this point, four
(26:21):
years later, Phenomenal as a brand has really grown to
so much more than the original T shirt that you launched.
I mean, you've got the production company. Now, you've got
this amazing social media platform that's inspiring and celebrating important
stories and people. Um, when you've got the new book
this is your second book, a children's book, Ambitious Girl.
And I would love to talk about that, that concept
(26:42):
of ambition because I many years ago, probably five or
six years ago, came up with this concept of alpha babe,
And it was really just about embracing the word alpha
when for so many years when people used it towards me,
it was like a backhanded compliment. It was, oh my gosh,
she's so alpha, like you're gonna have a hard I'm
getting a man, or good luck with this, or you
need to dial it back with that. And I was like, why,
(27:05):
why is there supposed to be so much shame attached
with being a thing that if I were a man,
I'd be applauded for. And So what I've loved is
over recent years especially, I've seen that evolved. I've seen
that change. I've seen myself my peers, women like you say,
not only am I ambitious, but I'm owning that and
I'm proud of it. And I hope that that next
(27:27):
generation of women that were raising will where this as
a badge of honor. Um that came naturally for you.
You've talked about the fact that your family was one
that you didn't realize until later was not the norm.
Can you talk about growing up in that tight knit
family of strong women who were really just helping to
lift one another up. Yeah, it's um something that I've
(27:48):
definitely come to, you know, appreciate for sure as an
adult and as a parent. Um. There are various ways
in which growing up I knew that, like, you know,
we were different, um, and that I had sort of
I don't know, I think it was just it was
more around like kind of curiosity and judgment frankly around
(28:08):
having a really young single mom. Uh. But I think
the reality for me was that that was something that
enabled me as the you know, kind of only child
of my family. You know, most of my life I was,
you know, an only child. UM. And meaning I've had
like cousins and and others that have come along after
(28:28):
I was in much of my formative you know, younger years. UM.
It means that you know, admit that I had a
front row seat right all the things that you know,
my mom was doing in the world. And the relationship
I had with my grandmother in particular was really special. Um.
She was a second mother to me. Uh. And I
recently said this, and I'm like I need to write
(28:50):
that down because it it's interesting to kind of reflect
on this, which is and I've talked about it in
different ways, but like my grandmother was almost like the
narrator you know, like my mom was doing and providing
for us and just doing what she needed to do,
you know, which was she was a student, she was
going to law school, she was on her own, you know,
(29:10):
um young career journey, just starting out on her career
when I was really young, and it was sort of
you know I saw that, right, and she was leading
by example, and I was huge for me, you know,
for a number of reasons, just like work ethic, right,
you know, she as I mentioned, was you know, public
interests lawyer. She was you know at the a c
(29:32):
l U. Right, she was doing advocacy work. So that
was obviously through my grandmother and aunt to like something
I was living and breathing all the time. But to
see my mom actually doing that work in the world,
I think it was incredibly important for me. Um. Also
just you know, sometimes out of circumstance, she took me
everywhere with her, right, if she couldn't get childcare, fight
my grandmother wasn't available, she took me with her. Um.
(29:53):
That meant that I you know, sometimes went to her
law school classes. I have vivid memories of you know,
like the Stanford Law Library, Um, you know, going to
her when she graduated, like going to her law from
office on weekends, and then my grandmother was sort of
contextualizing it for me, And I think there was a
lot wrapped in up in that in On the one hand,
(30:14):
I think my grandmother wanted me to have an appreciation
for it and understand that, you know, for example, you
know my mom had to work long hours, or that
my grandmother was the one picking yet from school that
like that, I I felt supported, right, and that that
was because she was working hard for us, right, And
she there's this refrain that she was constantly saying, like,
(30:35):
your mother works like a dog. She works like a dog.
Do you understand how hard she works? And I think
there was inherent in that just wanting to make sure
I saw that sacrifice and hard work and understood and
appreciated it. Um. And also I think there must be
some element of that of like not thinking that it
was you know, taking away from her like being a
good parent, right um. And that's something that I think
(30:57):
about with my kids now, where there have been you
know a number of occasions where especially the older one
she's not for has said like, you know, mommy has
to go work, and sometimes she's reacted negatively like, oh, well,
you know that, you know, I don't like that. And
I get where that's coming from because in her, you know,
little head, that's because it's time away from her. But
(31:20):
I now have the context from sort of how I
was raised and understanding that where I'm like, wait, let's pause,
I need you to understand, and let's talk about this.
And I wanted to reframe how we think about work,
like work is good. Work is how by the way
you eat, you get to eat food, and we put
food on the table like and you know, have clothing,
like we have to work. Nothing is gonna be handed
to you. And by the way, I also love working.
(31:41):
I love what I do. Right, So anyway, the point
is I saw that every day, and um, my grandmother
was sort of this you know, narrator of both I think,
wanting me to appreciate what my mother was doing, but
also just you know, um, teaching me those lessons and
values and making sure that I was, you know, on
nderstanding and learning that in a really intentional way. Especially
(32:03):
I think, you know, for you know, if you are
a single mom and you're just trying to do the
day to day stuff like parenting is hard, you often,
you know, it's it's it's a struggle sometimes just to
you know, get dinner on the table, or to get
you know, laundry done, and the idea that we can
do all of that and then say, let's have a
conversation about that. You know, it's like, oh my god,
where everybody's you know, it's a lot. I think there
(32:25):
are important lessons of that, of like showing up with
intentionality and right and all that, but it's a lot.
So I'm grateful that I had that dynamic where I,
you know, my grandmother's sort of you know, contextualized and
narrated like what I was seeing right, and had that
front row seat to that. It is it's so awesome
to hear that you had that growing up, and also
(32:46):
that you can apply that sort of intention to raising
your own children. UM. I love that, particularly because, like
I mentioned, you have this new children's book, Ambitious Girl,
which I read and loved. I mean, the illustrations are
absolutely stunny and the words all the more important. Um
when it comes to instilling that that pride for ambition
(33:08):
in young women, especially young girls. Why was that so
important to you? What? What is it about this book
that parents are going to want to read it, not
just to their little girls, but to the little boys too. Yeah.
Well it goes back to you. I think, you know,
for all of us, we're just trying to figure out
how to like raise good kids. And the only model
I really have for that is how I was raised. Right.
(33:30):
And there's two sides of this. One was that everything
we just talked about, I had a front row seat
to female ambition, right to women doing powerful things in
the world, being change makers. Um. And it wasn't like
somebody sat down with a book and said, here's this
word and it has a lot of power, and you know,
here's how we define it in our family. But get
ready because society needs to tally something different. Like. That's
(33:51):
not how I was taught. Instead, it just was right.
It was my world view. It's what I saw, and
it was you know, it was clearly a positive thing.
It was and that purpose determination, you know, having a
bold vision and believing that you know you can, you know,
disrupt the status quo and achieve it or you know,
be the first to do something that's never been done before.
And when people tell you it can never be done, right,
(34:11):
it hasn't been done before. And therefore it can be done.
And then now fast forward with me as a parent,
I think about, you know what, like let's actually define
that word, like let's put that into kids book and
be really extra clear, knowing that not only is it
sort of generally something that women and my girls when
they you know, go into the world world will encounter people,
(34:32):
you know, applying these double standards or are finding ways
to cut them down or tear them down, whether it's
calling them you know, too ambitious or bossy or right
like all the other words that we know are are
used in a disproportionate different way against women and not men.
Um But like, let's acknowledge the power of that language
(34:53):
and that language, um what when it becomes a part
of culture and you know systems that that is literally
you know, how society oppresses people and harms people, and
like we have to claim that and own that right
as you said earlier, and I was seeing also as
a new parent, which coincided with you know, becoming an author,
(35:14):
just the power of kids books and of children's literature
and that you know, kids are often learning about the
world around them in society, you know, through their families,
you know, when they go to school at that point,
through school, but you know, through books, right, especially in
the early early days, um, even before they're going off
to preschool. And um, you know, I think the other
(35:35):
point there is just the power of you know, representation
and and and teaching our kids young and understanding that
they are very capable of understanding and they soak up
everything and right, and and and when you have characters
that look like you're on the page or when you're
having conversations that you know are unique to your family,
the more that we can normalize that at a at
(35:56):
a young age. And as you mentioned, right, like that's
why this is just as important for my black daughters
to see themselves and to see ambition is a good
thing and a positive thing that should be encouraged and
you know, not something that they should be afraid of
or or feel like they have to hide. But it's
also important for white men and boys seeing that, right. Um.
That is you know the the definition of um, right,
(36:20):
not only representation, but it's something that you know, all
of us can see and believe in. And when we
don't do that, that is precisely when folks are able
to say, again, it's never been done before, so therefore
it can be done. Or I've never seen that happen before,
so therefore that can't be successful, right or um, you
know that is not a model of leadership or and
(36:41):
and we we all have to do that work. And
it's part of the conversation around right, raising feminist boys,
you know that turned into like good men. Uh, there's
this concept of you know, obviously toxic masculinity, but mindful masculinity.
My friend was plank of his point, right, Like, and
I so many questions for parents about you know, how
(37:03):
do we at we saund the last summer with the
deal and protests, right, A lot of white parents are like,
oh my gosh, how do I talk to my white
kids about racism? And you know, the point is that
you can have very direct conversations about that, and there
are lots of tools. There are now lots of lists
and resources where parents can find those things, um to
talk about what's going on in the world. But you
(37:23):
can do it in other ways and kind of consistent,
constant ways to which are looking at your bookshelf, what
are the images and messages you are you know, um,
encouraging and uh, you know, emphasizing and prioritizing for your children.
Is it uh, white male dominated you know, um narrative
and society or are you thinking about you know, books
(37:44):
like mine that center of black girls as the leaders
and understand that that is is just as good for
my kids as that it's for yours. Yeah. No, absolutely,
you mentioned, um, you know, not just the young girls,
but the young boys, and how important it is to
raise feminist boys. Also, UM, what I really love about
your partnership with your partner Nick is um I was
(38:05):
reading up recently about the really non traditional gender roles
that you two have established in your relationship and when
it comes to parenting. I'd seen that he recently had
given up a very impressive right um job in tech
to be a stay at home dad. Why can you
tell us about sort of gender roles or lack thereof
in your relationship dynamic and how you navigated those conversations
(38:29):
when it came to hey, this is what I expect
from the relationship and also this is what I'd love
to create when it comes to a partnership. Was that
hard for you, guys? Did it come very naturally for
you to kind of march to the beat of your
own drum? Yeah, yeah, I mean yes, and no, I
think it's like any relationship, you know, you have to
have um communication and it's good to explore, you know,
(38:50):
how to make it work, right if somebody says that,
you know, um, and I had in some ways of
model with my own parents, right where just in terms
of like finances, is right. It's like, uh, if if
one person's in public interests and the others in private sector, right,
like balancing that and having sort of a lot of
you know, conversations around how do you make this work
so you can do what you want to do when
(39:11):
you want to do it, and I can do what
I want to do and I want to do it
if if it's not possible to kind of do it
all at once, right, and it's so often is not
I think for you know, ordinary people. Um. So yeah,
I mean there's a lot of like non traditional things
about our family, I guess, And again that's just sort
of like those are the best things. Yeah. I think
(39:32):
it's also you know, the point of um kind of
similar to my journey as an entrepreneur. I think that
he had and I don't want to speak for him,
you know, but he had sort of accomplished what he
wanted to and it's been a long time in an
industry and it developed you know, his expertise and um,
you know, body of work. And I think felt like
(39:53):
this was a literally once in a lifetime opportunity to
spend quality time you know with young yet your young children,
right and understanding how formative those years aren't, and decided
that that was you know, worth the quote unquote risk
or I don't think he viewed it as a risk, right.
And again I think he had gotten to a point
of and that is a privileged point to be for sure,
(40:14):
right that you can feel like you can step away
and that one day if you want to go back,
that that still be there. But the I mean, the
bigger important point is just that when people like him
do that, it's something by the way that women do
all the time, right exactly talked about professional and gender rules.
And sometimes women do it because they want to. Sometimes
(40:34):
women do it because they are you know, the sole
caretaker and again the family. You know, you're you're trying
to balance what everybody is doing. Um. But the more
men who do that, the more we normalize that in
our culture. And you know, maybe that his example is
one that's a little bit more extreme, where he you know,
left to be a full time dad. But it applies
(40:55):
to things like taking care of silk children, right, which
we know disproportionately falls on if you have a you know,
two parent household. We know that those duties um. If
you you know that that they disproportionately fall on on women,
um in terms of care taking right, so in the
place right, um, taking care of sick kids, or most
(41:17):
importantly you know, around parental leave. Right. There's this whole
you know, conversation around and in tech and I as
a part of a lot of these conversations in terms
of you know, improving policies and practices to support working families,
which is that you know, it's it's yes, the bare
minimum that you should be doing is creating policies that
(41:37):
give equal leave to mothers and fathers, right. Um. But
the key to really make that effective is that you
also have a culture where that is encouraged and and
even rewarded. Right. So a equal policy leave for fathers,
you know where they get whatever six weeks in addition
to a mother means nothing if men are not king
(42:00):
that leave, right or it means nothing if you know
you're taking leave and you're not actually gone from the office, right,
it means nothing if you know you take it and
you're punished for it, right and your manager um or
there's a you know culture where you are penalized in
some way for being away from you know, from the
workplace by the way, I mean, of course, we know
(42:20):
that this happens to women all the time, right that
we you know, take leave that is available to us
and you know, are discriminated against or get some other
because there's some other you know sort of uh punishment
and that comes into your right in the workplace in
some way. Um. And again the point is like the
more that um that men I think take responsibility for
(42:42):
understanding that when they normalize it, it's better not only
for for them and their families, it's better for women. Right. Um.
That is when we really I think, make more you know,
lasting change. And so I'm really proud, right that he
can be uh. And it's so the point is that
it's it's Paul season practices, it's culture, it's um, you know,
(43:03):
really creating an environment where it's truly truly supportive you
you mentioned, you know, your your beautiful family, your husband,
and sort of the gender roles that you guys are redefining. UM.
I loved everything that you were talking about when it
comes to policy and actually taking advantage of policy that
(43:23):
may be available to us, but also everyone needing to
support that. Not just the women who can take advantage
of policy that is made for us that we deserve
to have, UM, to protect us, but also the men
in our lives. It's exciting to hear you talk about
these sorts of things from this perspective because obviously you've
done the work, you continue to do the work. You
served as a senior advisor on policy and communications for
(43:46):
your aunt's sixteen campaign. You've written these two children books.
So I look forward to seeing the ways in which
you advocate moving forward when it comes to this stuff
as a family. Right, Like, obviously we all watched the
inauguration day. We saw all the looks that were served,
We saw the history being made. UM. You're obviously madam
Vice President, and the absolutely historical moment that that was
(44:09):
for our nation, UM, and for women and little girls
of color across this country. UM. What stands out to
you most about that day? What will you remember most
about the aaluration day. And also the family was flawed
because y'all had to tell the looks were very impressive.
Oh my goodness. Yeah, I think it's really simple and
it maybe it just goes back to what we talked
(44:31):
about around you know, kids books, which I mean, the
number one thing I've been asked this question a lot,
as you can imagine, um, But the number one thing
that was on my mind during that ceremony was making
sure that my daughter could see it and could see
her being sworn in. And I think, you know, I
like to emphasize that, you know, yes, like we have
(44:53):
a personal, connected relationship and it's the it's personal, and
we're proud, and but that the reality is that we are,
you know, as regular as every experiencing this, just like
everybody else, right, And um, I think are just like
ordinary families all over the world that you know, we're
witnessing that. And I was getting these pictures from you know,
all over of little girls, you know, holding up their
(45:15):
hand while she was taking the oath, and again, the power,
the power of that and the power of representation, um,
is just extraordinary, and it cannot be you know that
we should take the opportunity in that moment and you know,
going forward to to celebrate that and understand it. Obviously,
there is a lot of work to do. Um. I
(45:37):
think that it's a given right that uh we elect
folks to do a good job at their jobs and
qualified you know people to do that. And I look
forward to, uh, you know, seeing the work being done
as well. But I think it's also important for us
to to pause and take in those moments and understand, um,
you know that just that you know image on TV,
that that holds a lot of power and it shows
(46:00):
you know, kids and girls and children right all over
what is possible. And it's literally you know, it's breaking
the glass ceiling right and many ways, like it's not
about her at the end of the day, it's about
that making it even more possible for more women to
to accomplish that, for more women of color, And UM,
I look forward to you know, seeing that, and I
(46:20):
think it's up to all of us to continue doing
the work, to push for it and to make sure
that you know, um, as my grandmother says, it has said, uh,
you know, maybe the first, but make sure you not
the last. And so the work begins right when you
are making sure that you are bringing others along. Um,
and that is the work that continues. And man, I
(46:40):
love it. I love it the d R. Jordan's did
you catch black Twitter freaking out about your Oh my god,
yes I did. I let me not, let me not
get myself in trouble. But I was definitely like I
was definitely on my phone in moments that I believe
(47:01):
we're respectful of the ceremonies, Like I wasn't on my
phone whatever it would be like there. But all I
have to say is I had like kind of been
catching some stuff and then I put my phone down
to you know, somebody was speaking. I can't remember. I think,
oh it had it had to have been any Colobachar right, Like,
someone was speaking and I was paying attention and there
there is like a pause, you know, with the next
(47:22):
speaker coming up whatever, and I look at my phone
and it's just like blowing up and I'm like, what
else going on? Um? The story is so great. I
mean Nick actually ended up talking about it, which is
really funny because he's not into like attention and it's
not that yeah, out of character for him in some ways,
but uh, to the point of just like you know,
(47:44):
the girl dad and um his you know role, like
the younger one had we had taken them to the
bathroom before the ceremony started, like trying to preemptively make
sure like right that people were not gonna have to go, right,
and of course, you know, an hour in or whatever, like,
the little one says that she has to go, and
(48:06):
so he you know, took her and uh tries to
you know, get gets to the toilet. Sorry for to
your mind, but like and then she refuses to go,
and so he's like, oh my god, and then they're
missing the ceremony as this is happening. So he goes
back to the door and assumes that you know, the
guard is gonna want him to wait until she's done speaking.
(48:29):
And apparently the guard was like, no, go, like we
want you to go to your seat, and so he's
kind of like tiptoeing down. But it happens to be
in the middle of Amy Homa Art Peace speaking. I
could literally see it. I mean, everybody, you know, if
you saw this was so funny, the story behind it,
and just like, oh my god, of course the two
year old has to like go pee, and the middle
ceremony after we already tried to get her to go
before it started. She didn't even go, and so it
(48:52):
was like a wasted trip in the middle of like
this hugely important event. And then it just led to
like chaos online that was extremely entertaining. I love it.
I love it. First it was the moment we needed.
I mean, it's so endearing because at the end of
the day, like you said, like you guys are witnessing
this and processing this in real time just like the
(49:13):
rest of us, and the bathroom waits for no one,
let alone a small child. So if anything, people two
year old exactly, um mina, we will obviously be tuned
into everything else that you have coming up. In the meantime,
everyone can go get ambitious girl. That is on shelves now, right, Yes,
(49:34):
it is on shelves. It actually I just found out
today that we made the New York Times best seller
list again last week, which is really exciting. And yeah, people,
it's just so amazing to like create something and put
it in the world and see people respond to it
in a positive way, and it's just so fun to
you know, hear how little kids are you know, talking
(49:55):
about it and what they're connecting with and it's just
it's it's so awesome. So I'm really grateful. Yeah, welcome
to be on this journey and from the support. So
thank you, absolutely, thank you for joining the show today.
We love talking you here on Hot Happy Mess. We'll
be checking out the children's book and everything else you
have coming up. Thank you so much, Happy Bess. Thank
you again Mina for such an awesome combo. Enjoyed every
(50:18):
minute of it. Make sure y'all go grab her new
children's book, Ambitious Girl. It's available now. I can't wait
to have a little girl to read this too. And
in the meantime, I'm definitely gonna be ordering it for
all of my friends who have little girls of their own,
because we want to encourage and celebrate that ambition. It
is a beautiful thing. And if you have someone that
you want to nominate for an alphabab spotlight, let us know.
(50:40):
Hit me up hello at Hot Happy Mess dot com
or slide in the d m s. We're on Instagram,
Hot Happy Mess. Make sure you go follow and hang
with us, and so we'll see you on another Hot
Happy Mess Monday. Leave a five star review and subscribe.
Subscribe subscribe if you haven't already, and if you a
real one, a real real one. But what I really
(51:00):
want you to do right now is go ahead and
text this episode to a friend, maybe two. If you
liked it, they'll probably like it because great minds think alike.
Share it with a friend, Make sure you're subscribed, and
I'll see y'all next Monday for another episode of Thought
Happy Mess. Bye.
Hot Happy Mess Celebrate your magic in the middle of
life's messes. Hot Happy. I'm Zeri Hall and this is
Hot Happy Made. What is up you guys, and welcome
back to another episode of Hot Happy Mess. I am
your host, Suri Hall, and this is the spot where
(00:31):
you can kick back, relax. You are in a safe
space and we are celebrating the magic in the middle
of our messes. I kind of stuffed a little bit there,
did you catch it? Kind of slurred my words. No,
I'm not drunk, I'm sober. It is a nice afternoon
and sunny Los Angeles, California, and sometimes I get tongue tied. Okay, okay,
(00:52):
I'm really super pumped to give you guys today's alphababe spotlight,
as you know hopefully by now. If you don't, I'll
do a quick refresh her. What's an alpha baby, you
may ask, Well, I'm glad you did it. Is she is,
I should say, an unapologetically ambitious and mindful millennial woman
who is designing a life that she loves and she leaves.
(01:14):
She knows what she wants and she ain't afraid to
work for it. You know, this juxtaposition of alpha and
babe is all about embracing our duality. And that's why
I started this social movement, this concept years ago when
I launched my alphabab blog because I was sick of
being told that I had to be one or the other.
We can be smart and sexy, strong and soft. We
(01:36):
can be a hard working badass and a self care connoisseur,
a balance of substance and style. We do not have
to choose. Embrace your duality, girl, you got this okay?
For today's Alpha Babe spotlight, we are highlighting an amazing woman,
I should say, phenomenal woman. Mina Harris was born into
a family of strong women whose legacy continues to inspire her.
(01:59):
We had an amazing conversation I'm so excited for you
to listen to in just a few minutes here. Her
grandmother was a cancer researcher and civil rights activist. Her
mother is a lawyer and policy expert. Her aunt, Kamala Harris,
is a former United States Senator from California and the
newly inaugurated Vice President of these United States of America.
(02:21):
Thank you very much, Madam Vice President. We love an
m VP. Love to see it. Mina herself is a
lawyer and an entrepreneur. In sen she founded the Phenomenal
Woman Action Campaign, which is a female powered organization that
brings awareness to social causes. You've probably seen those awesome
Phenomenal Woman T shirts based off of the Maya Angelou poem.
(02:43):
Of course I'm gonna have to get a T shirt, Mina,
pick it up. I need a T shirt. Mina currently
resides in San Francisco with her partner and their two daughters,
and you probably saw her family looking all types of
adorable and stylish if you watched this year's historic Inaugura ration,
or of course, her aunt Kamala Harris, made history as
(03:04):
the United States first female vice president, the highest ranking
female official in US history, and the very first African
American and first Asian American vice president. I love Mina's
perspective on ambition. It's so similar to mine, and it's
so reassuring and empowering to hear about other women who
(03:27):
have always had this this ambition just burning in the
in their blood and in their veins, and it's so
exciting to see how other women manifest their ambition and
what that looks like to them, And for me personally,
it's super fascinating to learn about how other women have embraced,
sometimes struggled or grappled with, and or encouraged other women
(03:51):
young and old to own their ambition, particularly because we're
all about happiness, about embrace, a seeing joy and the
things that light us up here on how happy mess.
I love this quote that Mina gave on another platform.
She said, finding joy, even by accident, can be a
radical act for women, especially for women of color. It's
(04:14):
as if stumbling upon happiness distracts us from what we're
quote unquote supposed to be doing, giving, sacrificing, caring for
anyone but ourselves. Meanwhile, doggedly pursuing joy or passionately going
after anything at all is often the surest way to
earn yourself the label of quote unquote too ambitious or
simply too much. If that ain't the truth, y'all, I
(04:38):
don't know what it is. I want to clap my hands,
but I also don't want to make them mic peak
with the audio. In a column that you wrote for
l Mina said, as I've gotten older, I've come to
realize that not everyone sees ambition the same way my
family does. And the hair's household, ambition means courage, it
means living your purpose. But to a whole lot of
other people, ambition women's and ah and that is is
(05:01):
code for taking up space that wasn't intended to be yours.
As my aunt showed us, when we encourage ambitious girls,
they become ambitious women, and ambitious women can break barriers,
shatter ceilings, and win. And if that ain't the truth,
I don't know what is. In the words of her
amazing aunt, our current vice president, dream with ambition, lead
(05:24):
with conviction, and see yourselves in a way that others
may not enjoy. This conversation with Mina Harris. Mina Harris,
thank you so much for joining us on the podcast today.
So excited to have you on Hot Happy Mess. How
we feeling? Um, you know, I was laughing to myself
because I'm like, I think it's called hot happy bess,
and I am still in the just hot best phase.
(05:47):
So but you know, I'm happy, but it's uh, overshadowed
at this point in time by what a hot mess
I am. So I don't know if I can say
we like to happy mess. Oh. The thing is, there
is no balance, That's what it's all about is just
like if we're waiting for that, we'll be waiting forever
(06:07):
for those skills to set. So it's just embracing all
of the above at the same time. Wait, why are
we feeling hot mess right now? I gotta have hot
happy mess. I think is actually a great way to
just think about my house right now, which is it is.
You know, it's joy and fun and you know, really
important quality time with my kids and my family, But
(06:29):
it's a mess and it's everything you know, collapsed into
one in closed space. It all happening out one time.
So you know, it's just a lot. Uh. And I
have to sometimes pause and like remind myself of you know,
if I feel like I'm approaching burnout or I'm just
Exhausted's like this this is not this is still not
normal right in terms of the day to day of it.
(06:50):
And um, I think things are looking up and you know,
hopefully we'll get the vaccine soon and there's lots of
things I think to be hopeful and optimistic um towards,
But you know, it's still a lot day to day
it is. It is absolutely a lot. I love that
you bring up the fact um that you know burnout
is the thing that you also deal with as we
all do, um, and I would love to dive more
(07:11):
into that and sort of your alarm system how you
listen to your body and your feelings, your emotions and
handle the burnout. But before we dive into that, particularly
with you being this amazing badass career woman and being
so ambitious, which I cannot wait to dive into the
meat up on this conversation, I want to do a
little bit of an icebreaker with you. Are hot, happy
(07:32):
mess audience, So this is rapid fire. I'm like the
old school. I'm the news Access Hollywood, like we like
our games are rough. Okay, you're going I prepare, yes,
kind of, it's all. It's gonna be great. You're gonna
love it. It's It's sweet, sweet and simple. Um, whatever
comes to your mind. First, First up, what is your
favorite TV show on Netflix? Brig Tin, I'm like, who,
(07:55):
I can't even get it out. I'm so excited about
the show, um, so bridgertain. I am obsessed with this
show and I have so many thoughts about about it
and just like the why I think it appeals to
different audiences and I just I mean, Shaanda rhymes like
I could go on and on other ones. I'm trying
to think Ozark was when I really got into that
(08:15):
was more like a pandemic thing. But anyway, that and
um uh sorry, I have to look it up. I see.
This is why I like, I can't just like recall
shows off top of my head. But another one I
was so obsessed with, and it's um a friend Journey
small and who's in it with the Lovecraft? Of course
I haven't, but I've heard great things. It's so good.
(08:39):
And it was another one that I think, like if
you asked me and like this sort of setting like
rapid fire, like do you like sci fi or do
you I would say, like, no, probably not, but it's
so amazing and it's it's sci fi. It's sort of
like there's a horror aspect to it. And you know, um,
Journey and oh my god, what is the other actor name?
I just I'm obsessed with um with the whole show.
(09:01):
I'm gonna have to look up Lovecraft. I love Jonathan
Major Jakay, Okay, got it. Yeah, he's just so talented,
both of them, they're so talented. Yeah, So yeah, I
would say that's amazing Lovecraft. Bridgertain absolutely no doubt. I
feel like I've talked to so many people during my
interviews for work where they're like, yeah, I was watching
(09:23):
Bridgerton and then my husband walked in and was like,
what the hell is happening? What in the what in
the soft sporting going on? But I absolutely loved the
season start to finish, and it's so overdue. Obviously we've
all been waiting for Shonda to to make her Netflix debut,
so I absolutely love that not only was it critically acclaimed,
but that it's killing it for the streamer too. You
(09:46):
share a birthday with with your aunt. What's the one
thing that you love most about your birthday? Twin? What
what is it about Kamala that you just and this
is you know, politics aside, just as speaking for your aunt,
um at this point, it's funny. I mean, throughout the campaign,
(10:06):
it was fun to see her share herself, you know,
literally share her in a way that UM, I think
it was different than before where people really got to
know her in a more intimate way than you know previously.
So I don't have anything juicy for you, like, uh,
and I say that to say that it's it's awesome
that people know this about her now, but it's far
(10:26):
and away her cooking. Um, like the number one thing
my whole life that I would say. You know, there's
lots of things, but that stuff, the cooking, Yeah, which
again everybody knows about it now, which is great. Yeah.
So wait, what's your go to dish? What's your favorite dish?
It depends now, meaning that I make, did that? She
(10:49):
makes that? You make that that? Maybe you both make?
Who one ups the other? Um, I'm trying to think.
I mean there's so many. Uh well, all the funny
thing is I remember she had made this roast chicken,
and I'm like, I don't I'm weird. I just like
always thought that I wasn't a roast chicken. Like if
I everyone a restaurant, I will never ever ever order chicken.
(11:11):
I think it's so weird from like if you're gonna
go to a restaurant, why would you or or something
like I know, but it's just like it's just more
like why did you go out of your way to
do something basic? Okay? Yeah? Yeah, although there are places
like um that if you're like known for it and
it's like okay, you have to order it fine. Anyway,
So I always felt like, I'm not that into it,
(11:33):
and she had made this roast chicken and I was like,
oh my god, this is the best roast chicken my
whole life. And then fast forward to the pandemic and
I started learning how to roast chicken. I figured out, okay,
I've heard of my life. Yeah, okay, so that's like
(11:53):
one of my go to that I've now found. You know,
I had this like bias against chicken and roast ends,
and now I figured out how to do it myself.
It's also one of those things that it feels like
so daunting if you've never done it, and it's actually
so easy. But it just takes like, you know, getting
a good like method and and it's just honestly, I
(12:15):
have never roasted a chicken in my life. Now I
kind of want to try it. I think I might
try it this weekends. I would encourage you. There's so
many the New York Times, like the buttermilk uh marrined
from the New York Times. Look that up. It is
life changing. Okay, So all right, that's what I'm gonna
do this weekend. Alright. I appreciate the recommendation. I'm curious
(12:39):
to know. I heard that your four year old is
a chef, likes to be in the kitchen. What is
the most interesting thing that she has made thus far?
It depends on how you define interesting. Oh, it could
be terrible, it could be I don't want interesting also
mean like tasty or nope, nope, no, this could be well.
And she's been yeah, I mean she's been going around
(13:02):
kind of like probably sharing this with everyone, which is
that she took leftover spaghetti carbonara that I had made, which,
as a side note, like it's just such a funny
thing with kids, like you obviously want to encourage them
to you know, explore their interests and no matter what
they may be, and not try to tell them to
(13:23):
do it in a certain way or in a certain
mold or whatever. So we have the spahetti carbonara, and
she it was like Taco Tuesday. We do that in
our house, and so she wanted to put the spaghetti
inside of the tacos and so like a lot of
carbs going on, no doubt, you know, it was basically
spaghetti carbonar inside of a casidia. I think we put
(13:45):
cheese in its still, so you know, does I guess
it's kind of like eating spaghetti with like bread. It's
like sandwich, but that's the same. Okay, Okay, I just don't.
I'm not, you know, in terms of taste and texture,
Like shoveling a taco of spaghetti into my office is
(14:06):
not the most you know. That was My next question
is did you sample the delicacy that was this carbonara casadilla? Well,
now I feel guilty because I actually didn't. I should have.
She only made one and she was I wanted this
child to like eat her dinner and be full, so
(14:27):
I wasn't trying to, you know, but You're right, I
should have just a little nibble. Okay, I love it.
Character Yeah, that's awesome. Okay. What is the beauty product
you cannot live without? Oh? My god, I mean generally
like under eye Constuleruh do we have a favorite one?
(14:47):
Are you asking about brands to if you have one
like that your go to for I'm a big I
would say yeah. I would say, like if I were
to shout out something that I was like, I can't
live without, you know whatever. You can get concealer anywhere.
But I'm actually wearing it now. It's kind of probably
like looking greasy because at the end of the day,
but it's this, um it's called a Hugh stick. It's
(15:10):
my tinted tinted yeah, live tinted, and it is uh
it is like my there's I don't know, like made
five things that have been like really key for my
pandemic living and this is like number one on the
list because it's just so easy and you literally like
swipe it on. I've been using a brush lately, but
(15:32):
like really fast kind of move it up or you
can use your finger and it like it looks like something.
So I on one hand, I've become much more comfortable
just like not wearing makeup at all on a lot
of meetings and zooms, which is awesome. I'm glad about.
Like I think it's just the confidence of like not
getting a fun time. I don't there have been speaking
(15:56):
of hot happy mess where I'm like, hey, I know
that I would like a mess and I'm sorry I
don't have time to put myself together. Like I just
know how that energy or effort to make today. So sorry, Um,
You're like the fact that I'm here is enough. It's
like I just yeah, like that's that that alone was
a big effort um. But yeah, if I'm doing something
where I feel like I want to wear makeup, it's
(16:18):
just so easy and I normally use uh it's I
think the shade is called true, so I use that
on my eyes. And the thing that's cool about it
is that it's also it's like an all over things
and you can put it on your cheeks, you can
put it on your lips and then click gloss over it.
Or it's just so easy and it's like effortless, but
it's like you look like you made effort. Oh my gosh.
(16:39):
And that's when I love like that's one of my favorites.
To the Houstick. We had Deep Begun on the podcast
probably like a few weeks ago. Now I'm about a
month ago talking about pivoting in your career and your
personal life, and I swear by the Houstick and then
the Unity bone you like do a little gloss bone.
It's just game changing. Yeah, they have a lot of
al Right, it's like easy products. Yes, everybody you guys know,
(17:02):
but just in case live tinted check it out. Shout
out to deepca love the brand um and also just
so inclusive and when it comes to representation across the spectrum. Uh,
the Housticks really do the job. So I'm with you
on that one. I want to dive into um Mina
Harris the woman. Obviously, you have this amazing brand that
(17:22):
you're building with phenomenal and I want to get to
where you are with it now. But for our listeners
who might be newer to your story or your journey
to where you are now, just kind of break it down.
When you look at your college years, your early twenties,
who was Mina then? What did she think she wanted
out of life? And then how did she sort of
evolve into where you've landed now. That's a big question. Uh,
(17:48):
if I really try to like boil it down, I
think that I this is gonna sound super cheesy, but
I have known since I was very young that I
was or that I am creative and entrepreneurial. I on
the one hand, you know, on one side, I was
(18:09):
like the kid and you know, thanks to my family
who saw that and encouraged it, I was in art
camp all summer long, so I was really into visual
arts at a young young age. Um, it was like
it was this art camp in Oakland. It actually still exists,
which is so amazing and I want to take my
girls there and when things open back up. But um,
you know, they had like a morning session, an afternoon session,
(18:31):
and then it was split up into like two week
sessions like throughout the summer, and most kids that attended
the camp would go to like just the morning session
for two weeks for the you know two week program.
I did mornings and afternoons for the entire summer um,
which you know was also like in some ways I
think it was I loved it, but it was also
(18:51):
like you know, single mom, like I need somebody you know,
I needed to have my kid occupied like all day
long all summer. And luckily, you know, I loved it
and just all worked out anyway. So there was that.
And then I just like as early as I possibly
you know, could, like I always had a job. Um.
I remember, like you know, my dad's sisters. I would
be like, is there anything eny helped with? Like both
(19:13):
of them are teachers, Like can you pay me to?
Like I was always doing you know kind of like
having side jobs, and that um continued throughout college, right
Like I was always I both did art stuff. Um,
I was not in class that much. I was you know,
doing UM mural art programs in East Palo Alto, which
is where I spent a majority of my time, and
(19:34):
then I had like seven jobs. Anyway, I think that
was all part of what I think has been sort
of within me and my ultimately my passion. But what's
interesting is, you know, I didn't have a lot of
like models for that growing up. UM. I had incredible
role models in other areas, which were, uh, you know,
social justice and in activism and in public interest law.
(19:55):
And therefore, I think it's probably not a huge surprise
that I, you know, ended up going to law school.
And I went to law school with the intention of
you know, yes, following in their footsteps of you know,
making positive change in the world with UM, with legal
you know it within the legal field, and with my
law degree. UM. And I think, you know that stuff
is obviously what I'm doing today is still super important,
(20:16):
right it's UM about social justice and all of the
things I just mentioned. But I think what I discovered,
and you know, after kind of being on that traditional
path for a while and kind of checking you know,
a lot of kind of boxes of doing you know,
what I thought was prestigious or kind of building you know,
my career in a traditional that my legal career in
a traditional way. UM, I learned that, you know, you
(20:37):
can make impact, you can have a you know, you
can make positive change in the world, um, through other ways,
right through being an entrepreneur, through building a brand, and
UM it took you know a while for me to
get there right and to understand that. And also there's
just so much that goes into it, right, Like it's
just you know, the intersection of a bunch of kind
of perfect moments where I had worked long enough it
(21:00):
felt like I had done enough in my traditional you
know career and frankly checked enough boxes that I was
willing to kind of like take that risk. Um. By
the way, I didn't even fully take the risk until
last year when I finally left my my job, my
full time job, and you know that I was financially
stable where I could take the risk of not having
like a study income or not knowing right what that
(21:22):
looked like. Um, there's just so much that goes into it,
and I will acknowledge that, you know, it's a huge
privilege to be able to like walk away from um,
you know, a really uh study and UM, I think,
you know, stable like interesting, you know, career and job,
which is what I was doing, um, you know, in
and out of tech industry and the legal field. So um.
(21:43):
But I think the point is, you know, I'm definitely
doing what I think I always dreamed of doing. In
the back of my head. I was like looked at
people who you know, had started businesses or own companies
and thought like, oh, would be so cool to do that.
But I just didn't know what that thing was or um,
you know how out of me real kind of like
concrete path towards it and quite the opposite I felt,
(22:05):
you know, kind of towards the end of the time
at my law firm, I was feeling this anxiety of
like who am I and what am I going to do?
And who am I going to be? You know, Uh,
do you feel like your identity was sort of wrapped
up in those boxes that you felt that maybe pressure
to check whether it was societal or otherwise. It was
definitely like self pressure, and to the extent it was
(22:26):
like external. I think it was about me having whatever
issues around like how people perceived me in in sort
of achieved the context of achievement, right, Like I remember
having this sort of feeling of well, I have, you know,
wanting to do things that other that people and yeah,
as you said, society right view as impressive, right, the
you know, prestigious pulling, the clerkship, the prestigious law firm
(22:50):
that right, I mean, and a lot of that I
think are are good sort of motivations, and I would
distill them down to you know, not elitism, but um excellence.
Where I was, I very much had that sort of
immigrant influence, you know, especially from my grandmother and modeled
through my mom and aunt, which is achievement and right
and working hard and academic excellence right. So and again
(23:13):
to their credit, I was never told like, oh you
have to be a lawyer or a doctor, right, um,
And I feel very grateful for that. But yeah, I
remember distinctly I was dating Nick and we were doing
long distance between DC and New York. I was at
my law firm. He was um in the tech industry
in New York City, and we were going back and
forth literally every week um to see each other and
(23:33):
kind of switching off, you know, week to week. And
there came a point where I knew like, okay, I
might be in my law firm for maybe another year,
but I'm not trying to stay here forever. And it
was this question of, like do I move to New
York and go to the New York office of my
law firm, And at that time, I felt like that
would be a miserable thing to do, and if I'm
gonna like move wide do the same thing that I
knew I didn't want to sort of be doing long term.
(23:54):
And then I had this in the back of my head,
like why I would love to be like in media
or marketing or at chising. But the thought of like
starting from the beginning, uh, in those spaces that I
had literally zero, you know, exposure to our experience in
felt very I don't know, I guess I don't want
to sound like I think that it's important for people
(24:15):
to you know, be willing to kind of like I
don't want to. Freeman is like, oh, at the start
at the bottom, Like, I think that's a that's not
a great way to frame it. But there was some
feeling of like, you know, I worked, I work, I
put in so many years to like get to the
place where I was that we've got yeah, And it
was like, damn, how do I kind of you know,
(24:36):
shift this so that I can build on that versus
feeling like I'm almost like throwing it away and starting over.
Maybe that's a better way of praising it, you know.
And luckily I was led, you know to this moment
where I kind of was able to do that, and
that because I did myself, right. Um. I instead of
you know, maybe going into an advertising agency or learning
(24:57):
the trade and the craft in that traditional andtitutional way,
I decided like, okay, I'm just gonna go try to
play around and test it myself and like see what happens,
you know. And again, it wasn't that intentional like it was. Uh,
it was me kind of doing my part and and
wanting to you know, do something meaningful coming out of
the election. I didn't started and say, Okay, I know
(25:19):
that I'm interested in marketing and advertising and creative you know, content,
and so I'm going to start a brand. Like That's
not how the story goes, right, Um. But I think
it was pretty doing yeah, and understanding that, you know,
if you do have passions or interests or skills that
are outside of you know, you're like nine to five,
(25:39):
right or whatever kind of you know, career pathy may beyond.
There are like ways to keep up, keep that up
and feed it that you know may not literally lead
you to this thing. But for me, you know, having
I had this like T shirt that preceded Phenomenal, and
that really was you know, it was like this kind
of silly side thing that's off in its own way.
(26:01):
It was much more narrowly focused on you know, entrepreneurs.
You know that that was telling and that ended up
being kind of the seed for you know, when the
moment came, I like, could I could do something? And
I did something and still find no idea where it's
gonna be, Like, had no idea that I'd still be
here four years later. Yeah, And at this point, four
(26:21):
years later, Phenomenal as a brand has really grown to
so much more than the original T shirt that you launched.
I mean, you've got the production company. Now, you've got
this amazing social media platform that's inspiring and celebrating important
stories and people. Um, when you've got the new book
this is your second book, a children's book, Ambitious Girl.
And I would love to talk about that, that concept
(26:42):
of ambition because I many years ago, probably five or
six years ago, came up with this concept of alpha babe,
And it was really just about embracing the word alpha
when for so many years when people used it towards me,
it was like a backhanded compliment. It was, oh my gosh,
she's so alpha, like you're gonna have a hard I'm
getting a man, or good luck with this, or you
need to dial it back with that. And I was like, why,
(27:05):
why is there supposed to be so much shame attached
with being a thing that if I were a man,
I'd be applauded for. And So what I've loved is
over recent years especially, I've seen that evolved. I've seen
that change. I've seen myself my peers, women like you say,
not only am I ambitious, but I'm owning that and
I'm proud of it. And I hope that that next
(27:27):
generation of women that were raising will where this as
a badge of honor. Um that came naturally for you.
You've talked about the fact that your family was one
that you didn't realize until later was not the norm.
Can you talk about growing up in that tight knit
family of strong women who were really just helping to
lift one another up. Yeah, it's um something that I've
(27:48):
definitely come to, you know, appreciate for sure as an
adult and as a parent. Um. There are various ways
in which growing up I knew that, like, you know,
we were different, um, and that I had sort of
I don't know, I think it was just it was
more around like kind of curiosity and judgment frankly around
(28:08):
having a really young single mom. Uh. But I think
the reality for me was that that was something that
enabled me as the you know, kind of only child
of my family. You know, most of my life I was,
you know, an only child. UM. And meaning I've had
like cousins and and others that have come along after
(28:28):
I was in much of my formative you know, younger years. UM.
It means that you know, admit that I had a
front row seat right all the things that you know,
my mom was doing in the world. And the relationship
I had with my grandmother in particular was really special. Um.
She was a second mother to me. Uh. And I
recently said this, and I'm like I need to write
(28:50):
that down because it it's interesting to kind of reflect
on this, which is and I've talked about it in
different ways, but like my grandmother was almost like the
narrator you know, like my mom was doing and providing
for us and just doing what she needed to do,
you know, which was she was a student, she was
going to law school, she was on her own, you know,
(29:10):
um young career journey, just starting out on her career
when I was really young, and it was sort of
you know I saw that, right, and she was leading
by example, and I was huge for me, you know,
for a number of reasons, just like work ethic, right,
you know, she as I mentioned, was you know, public
interests lawyer. She was you know at the a c
(29:32):
l U. Right, she was doing advocacy work. So that
was obviously through my grandmother and aunt to like something
I was living and breathing all the time. But to
see my mom actually doing that work in the world,
I think it was incredibly important for me. Um. Also
just you know, sometimes out of circumstance, she took me
everywhere with her, right, if she couldn't get childcare, fight
my grandmother wasn't available, she took me with her. Um.
(29:53):
That meant that I you know, sometimes went to her
law school classes. I have vivid memories of you know,
like the Stanford Law Library, Um, you know, going to
her when she graduated, like going to her law from
office on weekends, and then my grandmother was sort of
contextualizing it for me, And I think there was a
lot wrapped in up in that in On the one hand,
(30:14):
I think my grandmother wanted me to have an appreciation
for it and understand that, you know, for example, you
know my mom had to work long hours, or that
my grandmother was the one picking yet from school that
like that, I I felt supported, right, and that that
was because she was working hard for us, right, And
she there's this refrain that she was constantly saying, like,
(30:35):
your mother works like a dog. She works like a dog.
Do you understand how hard she works? And I think
there was inherent in that just wanting to make sure
I saw that sacrifice and hard work and understood and
appreciated it. Um. And also I think there must be
some element of that of like not thinking that it
was you know, taking away from her like being a
good parent, right um. And that's something that I think
(30:57):
about with my kids now, where there have been you
know a number of occasions where especially the older one
she's not for has said like, you know, mommy has
to go work, and sometimes she's reacted negatively like, oh, well,
you know that, you know, I don't like that. And
I get where that's coming from because in her, you know,
little head, that's because it's time away from her. But
(31:20):
I now have the context from sort of how I
was raised and understanding that where I'm like, wait, let's pause,
I need you to understand, and let's talk about this.
And I wanted to reframe how we think about work,
like work is good. Work is how by the way
you eat, you get to eat food, and we put
food on the table like and you know, have clothing,
like we have to work. Nothing is gonna be handed
to you. And by the way, I also love working.
(31:41):
I love what I do. Right, So anyway, the point
is I saw that every day, and um, my grandmother
was sort of this you know, narrator of both I think,
wanting me to appreciate what my mother was doing, but
also just you know, um, teaching me those lessons and
values and making sure that I was, you know, on
nderstanding and learning that in a really intentional way. Especially
(32:03):
I think, you know, for you know, if you are
a single mom and you're just trying to do the
day to day stuff like parenting is hard, you often,
you know, it's it's it's a struggle sometimes just to
you know, get dinner on the table, or to get
you know, laundry done, and the idea that we can
do all of that and then say, let's have a
conversation about that. You know, it's like, oh my god,
where everybody's you know, it's a lot. I think there
(32:25):
are important lessons of that, of like showing up with
intentionality and right and all that, but it's a lot.
So I'm grateful that I had that dynamic where I,
you know, my grandmother's sort of you know, contextualized and
narrated like what I was seeing right, and had that
front row seat to that. It is it's so awesome
to hear that you had that growing up, and also
(32:46):
that you can apply that sort of intention to raising
your own children. UM. I love that, particularly because, like
I mentioned, you have this new children's book, Ambitious Girl,
which I read and loved. I mean, the illustrations are
absolutely stunny and the words all the more important. Um
when it comes to instilling that that pride for ambition
(33:08):
in young women, especially young girls. Why was that so
important to you? What? What is it about this book
that parents are going to want to read it, not
just to their little girls, but to the little boys too. Yeah.
Well it goes back to you. I think, you know,
for all of us, we're just trying to figure out
how to like raise good kids. And the only model
I really have for that is how I was raised. Right.
(33:30):
And there's two sides of this. One was that everything
we just talked about, I had a front row seat
to female ambition, right to women doing powerful things in
the world, being change makers. Um. And it wasn't like
somebody sat down with a book and said, here's this
word and it has a lot of power, and you know,
here's how we define it in our family. But get
ready because society needs to tally something different. Like. That's
(33:51):
not how I was taught. Instead, it just was right.
It was my world view. It's what I saw, and
it was you know, it was clearly a positive thing.
It was and that purpose determination, you know, having a
bold vision and believing that you know you can, you know,
disrupt the status quo and achieve it or you know,
be the first to do something that's never been done before.
And when people tell you it can never be done, right,
(34:11):
it hasn't been done before. And therefore it can be done.
And then now fast forward with me as a parent,
I think about, you know what, like let's actually define
that word, like let's put that into kids book and
be really extra clear, knowing that not only is it
sort of generally something that women and my girls when
they you know, go into the world world will encounter people,
(34:32):
you know, applying these double standards or are finding ways
to cut them down or tear them down, whether it's
calling them you know, too ambitious or bossy or right
like all the other words that we know are are
used in a disproportionate different way against women and not men.
Um But like, let's acknowledge the power of that language
(34:53):
and that language, um what when it becomes a part
of culture and you know systems that that is literally
you know, how society oppresses people and harms people, and
like we have to claim that and own that right
as you said earlier, and I was seeing also as
a new parent, which coincided with you know, becoming an author,
(35:14):
just the power of kids books and of children's literature
and that you know, kids are often learning about the
world around them in society, you know, through their families,
you know, when they go to school at that point,
through school, but you know, through books, right, especially in
the early early days, um, even before they're going off
to preschool. And um, you know, I think the other
(35:35):
point there is just the power of you know, representation
and and and teaching our kids young and understanding that
they are very capable of understanding and they soak up
everything and right, and and and when you have characters
that look like you're on the page or when you're
having conversations that you know are unique to your family,
the more that we can normalize that at a at
(35:56):
a young age. And as you mentioned, right, like that's
why this is just as important for my black daughters
to see themselves and to see ambition is a good
thing and a positive thing that should be encouraged and
you know, not something that they should be afraid of
or or feel like they have to hide. But it's
also important for white men and boys seeing that, right. Um.
That is you know the the definition of um, right,
(36:20):
not only representation, but it's something that you know, all
of us can see and believe in. And when we
don't do that, that is precisely when folks are able
to say, again, it's never been done before, so therefore
it can be done. Or I've never seen that happen before,
so therefore that can't be successful, right or um, you
know that is not a model of leadership or and
(36:41):
and we we all have to do that work. And
it's part of the conversation around right, raising feminist boys,
you know that turned into like good men. Uh, there's
this concept of you know, obviously toxic masculinity, but mindful masculinity.
My friend was plank of his point, right, Like, and
I so many questions for parents about you know, how
(37:03):
do we at we saund the last summer with the
deal and protests, right, A lot of white parents are like,
oh my gosh, how do I talk to my white
kids about racism? And you know, the point is that
you can have very direct conversations about that, and there
are lots of tools. There are now lots of lists
and resources where parents can find those things, um to
talk about what's going on in the world. But you
(37:23):
can do it in other ways and kind of consistent,
constant ways to which are looking at your bookshelf, what
are the images and messages you are you know, um,
encouraging and uh, you know, emphasizing and prioritizing for your children.
Is it uh, white male dominated you know, um narrative
and society or are you thinking about you know, books
(37:44):
like mine that center of black girls as the leaders
and understand that that is is just as good for
my kids as that it's for yours. Yeah. No, absolutely,
you mentioned, um, you know, not just the young girls,
but the young boys, and how important it is to
raise feminist boys. Also, UM, what I really love about
your partnership with your partner Nick is um I was
(38:05):
reading up recently about the really non traditional gender roles
that you two have established in your relationship and when
it comes to parenting. I'd seen that he recently had
given up a very impressive right um job in tech
to be a stay at home dad. Why can you
tell us about sort of gender roles or lack thereof
in your relationship dynamic and how you navigated those conversations
(38:29):
when it came to hey, this is what I expect
from the relationship and also this is what I'd love
to create when it comes to a partnership. Was that
hard for you, guys? Did it come very naturally for
you to kind of march to the beat of your
own drum? Yeah, yeah, I mean yes, and no, I
think it's like any relationship, you know, you have to
have um communication and it's good to explore, you know,
(38:50):
how to make it work, right if somebody says that,
you know, um, and I had in some ways of
model with my own parents, right where just in terms
of like finances, is right. It's like, uh, if if
one person's in public interests and the others in private sector, right,
like balancing that and having sort of a lot of
you know, conversations around how do you make this work
so you can do what you want to do when
(39:11):
you want to do it, and I can do what
I want to do and I want to do it
if if it's not possible to kind of do it
all at once, right, and it's so often is not
I think for you know, ordinary people. Um. So yeah,
I mean there's a lot of like non traditional things
about our family, I guess, And again that's just sort
of like those are the best things. Yeah. I think
(39:32):
it's also you know, the point of um kind of
similar to my journey as an entrepreneur. I think that
he had and I don't want to speak for him,
you know, but he had sort of accomplished what he
wanted to and it's been a long time in an
industry and it developed you know, his expertise and um,
you know, body of work. And I think felt like
(39:53):
this was a literally once in a lifetime opportunity to
spend quality time you know with young yet your young children,
right and understanding how formative those years aren't, and decided
that that was you know, worth the quote unquote risk
or I don't think he viewed it as a risk, right.
And again I think he had gotten to a point
of and that is a privileged point to be for sure,
(40:14):
right that you can feel like you can step away
and that one day if you want to go back,
that that still be there. But the I mean, the
bigger important point is just that when people like him
do that, it's something by the way that women do
all the time, right exactly talked about professional and gender rules.
And sometimes women do it because they want to. Sometimes
(40:34):
women do it because they are you know, the sole
caretaker and again the family. You know, you're you're trying
to balance what everybody is doing. Um. But the more
men who do that, the more we normalize that in
our culture. And you know, maybe that his example is
one that's a little bit more extreme, where he you know,
left to be a full time dad. But it applies
(40:55):
to things like taking care of silk children, right, which
we know disproportionately falls on if you have a you know,
two parent household. We know that those duties um. If
you you know that that they disproportionately fall on on women,
um in terms of care taking right, so in the
place right, um, taking care of sick kids, or most
(41:17):
importantly you know, around parental leave. Right. There's this whole
you know, conversation around and in tech and I as
a part of a lot of these conversations in terms
of you know, improving policies and practices to support working families,
which is that you know, it's it's yes, the bare
minimum that you should be doing is creating policies that
(41:37):
give equal leave to mothers and fathers, right. Um. But
the key to really make that effective is that you
also have a culture where that is encouraged and and
even rewarded. Right. So a equal policy leave for fathers,
you know where they get whatever six weeks in addition
to a mother means nothing if men are not king
(42:00):
that leave, right or it means nothing if you know
you're taking leave and you're not actually gone from the office, right,
it means nothing if you know you take it and
you're punished for it, right and your manager um or
there's a you know culture where you are penalized in
some way for being away from you know, from the
workplace by the way, I mean, of course, we know
(42:20):
that this happens to women all the time, right that
we you know, take leave that is available to us
and you know, are discriminated against or get some other
because there's some other you know sort of uh punishment
and that comes into your right in the workplace in
some way. Um. And again the point is like the
more that um that men I think take responsibility for
(42:42):
understanding that when they normalize it, it's better not only
for for them and their families, it's better for women. Right. Um.
That is when we really I think, make more you know,
lasting change. And so I'm really proud, right that he
can be uh. And it's so the point is that
it's it's Paul season practices, it's culture, it's um, you know,
(43:03):
really creating an environment where it's truly truly supportive you
you mentioned, you know, your your beautiful family, your husband,
and sort of the gender roles that you guys are redefining. UM.
I loved everything that you were talking about when it
comes to policy and actually taking advantage of policy that
(43:23):
may be available to us, but also everyone needing to
support that. Not just the women who can take advantage
of policy that is made for us that we deserve
to have, UM, to protect us, but also the men
in our lives. It's exciting to hear you talk about
these sorts of things from this perspective because obviously you've
done the work, you continue to do the work. You
served as a senior advisor on policy and communications for
(43:46):
your aunt's sixteen campaign. You've written these two children books.
So I look forward to seeing the ways in which
you advocate moving forward when it comes to this stuff
as a family. Right, Like, obviously we all watched the
inauguration day. We saw all the looks that were served,
We saw the history being made. UM. You're obviously madam
Vice President, and the absolutely historical moment that that was
(44:09):
for our nation, UM, and for women and little girls
of color across this country. UM. What stands out to
you most about that day? What will you remember most
about the aaluration day. And also the family was flawed
because y'all had to tell the looks were very impressive.
Oh my goodness. Yeah, I think it's really simple and
it maybe it just goes back to what we talked
(44:31):
about around you know, kids books, which I mean, the
number one thing I've been asked this question a lot,
as you can imagine, um, But the number one thing
that was on my mind during that ceremony was making
sure that my daughter could see it and could see
her being sworn in. And I think, you know, I
like to emphasize that, you know, yes, like we have
(44:53):
a personal, connected relationship and it's the it's personal, and
we're proud, and but that the reality is that we are,
you know, as regular as every experiencing this, just like
everybody else, right, And um, I think are just like
ordinary families all over the world that you know, we're
witnessing that. And I was getting these pictures from you know,
all over of little girls, you know, holding up their
(45:15):
hand while she was taking the oath, and again, the power,
the power of that and the power of representation, um,
is just extraordinary, and it cannot be you know that
we should take the opportunity in that moment and you know,
going forward to to celebrate that and understand it. Obviously,
there is a lot of work to do. Um. I
(45:37):
think that it's a given right that uh we elect
folks to do a good job at their jobs and
qualified you know people to do that. And I look
forward to, uh, you know, seeing the work being done
as well. But I think it's also important for us
to to pause and take in those moments and understand, um,
you know that just that you know image on TV,
that that holds a lot of power and it shows
(46:00):
you know, kids and girls and children right all over
what is possible. And it's literally you know, it's breaking
the glass ceiling right and many ways, like it's not
about her at the end of the day, it's about
that making it even more possible for more women to
to accomplish that, for more women of color, And UM,
I look forward to you know, seeing that, and I
(46:20):
think it's up to all of us to continue doing
the work, to push for it and to make sure
that you know, um, as my grandmother says, it has said, uh,
you know, maybe the first, but make sure you not
the last. And so the work begins right when you
are making sure that you are bringing others along. Um,
and that is the work that continues. And man, I
(46:40):
love it. I love it the d R. Jordan's did
you catch black Twitter freaking out about your Oh my god,
yes I did. I let me not, let me not
get myself in trouble. But I was definitely like I
was definitely on my phone in moments that I believe
(47:01):
we're respectful of the ceremonies, Like I wasn't on my
phone whatever it would be like there. But all I
have to say is I had like kind of been
catching some stuff and then I put my phone down
to you know, somebody was speaking. I can't remember. I think,
oh it had it had to have been any Colobachar right, Like,
someone was speaking and I was paying attention and there
there is like a pause, you know, with the next
(47:22):
speaker coming up whatever, and I look at my phone
and it's just like blowing up and I'm like, what
else going on? Um? The story is so great. I
mean Nick actually ended up talking about it, which is
really funny because he's not into like attention and it's
not that yeah, out of character for him in some ways,
but uh, to the point of just like you know,
(47:44):
the girl dad and um his you know role, like
the younger one had we had taken them to the
bathroom before the ceremony started, like trying to preemptively make
sure like right that people were not gonna have to go, right,
and of course, you know, an hour in or whatever, like,
the little one says that she has to go, and
(48:06):
so he you know, took her and uh tries to
you know, get gets to the toilet. Sorry for to
your mind, but like and then she refuses to go,
and so he's like, oh my god, and then they're
missing the ceremony as this is happening. So he goes
back to the door and assumes that you know, the
guard is gonna want him to wait until she's done speaking.
(48:29):
And apparently the guard was like, no, go, like we
want you to go to your seat, and so he's
kind of like tiptoeing down. But it happens to be
in the middle of Amy Homa Art Peace speaking. I
could literally see it. I mean, everybody, you know, if
you saw this was so funny, the story behind it,
and just like, oh my god, of course the two
year old has to like go pee, and the middle
ceremony after we already tried to get her to go
before it started. She didn't even go, and so it
(48:52):
was like a wasted trip in the middle of like
this hugely important event. And then it just led to
like chaos online that was extremely entertaining. I love it.
I love it. First it was the moment we needed.
I mean, it's so endearing because at the end of
the day, like you said, like you guys are witnessing
this and processing this in real time just like the
(49:13):
rest of us, and the bathroom waits for no one,
let alone a small child. So if anything, people two
year old exactly, um mina, we will obviously be tuned
into everything else that you have coming up. In the meantime,
everyone can go get ambitious girl. That is on shelves now, right, Yes,
(49:34):
it is on shelves. It actually I just found out
today that we made the New York Times best seller
list again last week, which is really exciting. And yeah, people,
it's just so amazing to like create something and put
it in the world and see people respond to it
in a positive way, and it's just so fun to
you know, hear how little kids are you know, talking
(49:55):
about it and what they're connecting with and it's just
it's it's so awesome. So I'm really grateful. Yeah, welcome
to be on this journey and from the support. So
thank you, absolutely, thank you for joining the show today.
We love talking you here on Hot Happy Mess. We'll
be checking out the children's book and everything else you
have coming up. Thank you so much, Happy Bess. Thank
you again Mina for such an awesome combo. Enjoyed every
(50:18):
minute of it. Make sure y'all go grab her new
children's book, Ambitious Girl. It's available now. I can't wait
to have a little girl to read this too. And
in the meantime, I'm definitely gonna be ordering it for
all of my friends who have little girls of their own,
because we want to encourage and celebrate that ambition. It
is a beautiful thing. And if you have someone that
you want to nominate for an alphabab spotlight, let us know.
(50:40):
Hit me up hello at Hot Happy Mess dot com
or slide in the d m s. We're on Instagram,
Hot Happy Mess. Make sure you go follow and hang
with us, and so we'll see you on another Hot
Happy Mess Monday. Leave a five star review and subscribe.
Subscribe subscribe if you haven't already, and if you a
real one, a real real one. But what I really
(51:00):
want you to do right now is go ahead and
text this episode to a friend, maybe two. If you
liked it, they'll probably like it because great minds think alike.
Share it with a friend, Make sure you're subscribed, and
I'll see y'all next Monday for another episode of Thought
Happy Mess. Bye.
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