18: Let’s Get Kinky (The Virgin, The Throuple, The Sex Expert) with Gigi Engle & The Trifecta Love

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:07):
Hot Happy Mess Celebrate your magic in the middle of
life's messes. Hi Happy, I'm serial and this is Hot
Happy made Shoot. What is up? It is me z
your friend, your confidante, your fellow side part, wearing skinny

(00:33):
jean loving millennial high gen z. I'm looking at you.
Thanks for making me feel so old. Also, have any
of you read the rewards? Has anyone seen the news today?
Apparently anyone who likes skinny jeans or side parts is
a very old and washed up millennial. So I guess
Hot Happy Mess has maybe become a support group. I

(00:54):
were middle parts sometimes. Anyways, It's me Zuri Hall and
this is a another episode of Hot Happy Mess where
we make the most of the moments we're in and
find a way to celebrate the magic in the middle
of our life's messes. A lot of messes. I'm in
the middle of a lot of messes right now. We'll
talk about that some other time, because today I've got

(01:16):
a show for you. Baby kinks, fetishes, polyamory, virginity. We're
covering it all. We are having some real conversations. You're
gonna love it. Last week, well, actually I don't think
it was left. It was no, I know for sure.
It wasn't last week. It was a few weeks ago,
but it was within this relationship and love and dating

(01:40):
series that we're in where we were talking about sex.
So if you haven't listened to part one, go listen
to the first half of the sex stuff. Wow, and
I sound so sexy while I say it, so I'm
not even gonna go there anyways, go back and listen
to the best sex at for episode. It's really good. Um.

(02:02):
But but most of that first episode, as much as
I loved it and as awesome as the conversations were,
and you guys have been giving me so much feedback
saying how much you appreciate the conversation. Y'all done? Try
a couple of things in the bed nasty, I love it.
Have fun, guys or don't, whatever you're into. I would
say that episode, for the most part was from a

(02:24):
generally traditional lens um or traditionally mainstream lens um. And
so I'm really excited about this episode because we're opening
it up to one could say, more non traditional lifestyle choices.
And my initial vision for Hot Happy Mess was to
create this safe space for you know, mindful uh and

(02:49):
ambitious millennial women who are multicultural and inclusive. And you know,
we appreciate sharing and celebrating one another's experiences and learning
about other women's stories and points of view, even if
they're nothing like our own, particularly when they're nothing like
our own. And and it feels so good to realize

(03:10):
that's the space that we've created here collectively together. You know,
this is a judgment free zone, and we're all about
respect and loving kindness. And I am committed to sharing
all different types of stories from all different types of women.
And when I say women, I mean we are all
all the ladies, Okay, all races and background, sexualities, countries, hell,

(03:33):
astrological signs. I'm a Gemini, but we could be technically incompatible.
And you just come on the show girl and speak
your truth. I'm talking to you. Tourist is just kidding.
I like everybody. But in all seriousness, we here at
the podcast are just united. I am so inspired by
the fact that all of us, you, myself, all of

(03:53):
the women who are building this amazing community with me,
we're just united by one mission, which is living our
lives as fully and happily and mindfully as we can
every single day. And that is such a tangent, such
a tangent. But I feel like we're like twenty episodes
almost deep into the podcast, So I just felt like
I should let you know, I should mind you what

(04:14):
it is and what it ain't, and then I should
get back to the subject, because y'all know I am
good for a tangent. Today we are talking about non
traditional lifestyles. We are exploring sexuality compatibility, and I'm really
excited to share some of these amazing people's perspectives with
you because the only way to empathize, in my opinion,

(04:35):
is to try to understand. So I just hope we
keep learning from one another, because from my perspective, the
only way to empathize is to understand. And I hope
that we can always keep learning from one another and
educating and empowering one another and respecting one another. And
we'll never know the answers to questions if we never ask,
and people may never understand us if we never open up,

(04:59):
if we never take the risk of vulnerability. So I'm
super excited to give you just a small glimpse, just
the tip of the iceberg, into um all of these
awesome perspectives and pee easier about to hear. Okay, this
is a Schmore Gifts board of stories and segments, and
y'all know I love the words mortgage board, even though
I still don't know exactly how to pronounce it. So

(05:20):
come up first. I wake up Hella early, Los Angeles.
Time to chat with an awesome UK based sex therapist
whose intelligence and insight was so worth the extra shot
of espresso in my Dirty Child latte that morning. Celibacy
versus abstinence? Is there a difference the spectrum of sexuality?

(05:40):
What's the difference between kinks and fetishes? What is the
g spot really? And what else can we work with
phone sex minds, the awkward vibes, We're going there. Okay,
she's breaking it down. Then in one of our hot
happy mess signature segments, a real Woman, Real story, A
late one tis something amazing. Boss of a woman is

(06:04):
waiting until marriage to lose her virginity and she's opening
up with me about why and does it ever get difficult?
She's telling me if it does and how she handles it.
And then later on in the show Throuple, anybody anybody? No? Maybe? Yes?
I see a yes over there? Have you heard of
the trouble? Are you down with the the trifecta life?

(06:28):
Do you know the difference between polyamory and polygamy? I didn't,
but after this amazing combo, I know now could you
ever do it? Are you interested in exploring that maybe
a friend has come to you and brought it up?
A real life committed threesome is sharing their journey to
group love with me. It's a really fun conversation and

(06:50):
know y'all are gonna love it. You're gonna love everything
that's coming up, So first up. Gig Angle is an
award winning feminist, author, certified sex coach, sex biologist, and
sex at j cat. Her articles have been shared over
fifty million times, with her top posts reaching over fifty
million shares. Dank Can I get a trickle down? Let
me get a couple of followers? And twenty nineteen, gig

(07:12):
was named Journalist of the Year at the Sexual Freedom Awards.
Her new book, All the Fucking Mistakes is available now. Gi.
Welcome to the show. Yeah, thank you for having me.
I'm really excited to be here. Of course, of course,
I'm really excited to dive into this conversation because I'll
be honest, full disclosure. There's a lot that I do

(07:32):
not know about, and so all of these questions are
coming from a place of purely wanting to understand. Um.
It also really just share light on sometimes alternative lifestyle
sometimes alternative choices or things that you know some people
may not be familiar with. But um, as we dive
into various lifestyle choices in this episode, we'll be talking

(07:54):
to polygamists later to to someone who's waiting for marriage
before they have sex for the first time. So really
just exploring from all different angles. I'm excited for you
to break down some of the things that some of
us may not be super familiar with before we get started. UM.
When it comes to your work, what initially ignited that
passion for you? What made you decide to get into
this field? But I got started in journalism, Um, I

(08:17):
found out that it was a very it was a
simple space to get started with a writing about sexual
health because people as hard as as hard as it
is to get published with sexual health, it's it's a
pretty small little uh, a group of people who are
willing to go out and actually like be really adventurous
when it comes to sex. I've always not given a

(08:38):
buck and really been all about as much attention as
I could get. So like, when I found out like
that writing round sex articles was like the thing that
got my voice. Notice because I was originally a writer,
I was like, oh, this is great. And I've always
been like the horney of person alive and really interested.
It's like, really interested in sexuality. And I'm now back

(08:59):
in school be a sex therapist. I'm sadgon so like,
you know, I gotta get more stuff, um, because I
just find the human sexuality has turned out to be
pretty much a vocation for me as much as writing,
as they have kind of fused together, and I've been
lucky enough to create my own career out of this
kind of amazing, beautiful thing that is very natural to

(09:20):
the existential experience. Yeah. Absolutely, that is so fascinating. Um.
I'm curious to know from your perspective, have you since
the cultural shift, where do you think we are when
it comes to embracing particularly as women, our bodies are sexuality.
You know, for the longest time, there was this idea
that you could be one or the other, and I

(09:43):
um celebrated this idea with the concept called alphabet, which
is that we can embrace our duality. We can be sexy,
we can be smart, we can be you know, a
badass in the board room, we can be into the
self care. Um. Have you since to shift in how
women celebrating their bodies and public spaces is um and
their sexuality, how that's been perceived while also being a

(10:05):
woman of business or working in corporate Um? Do you
sense that difference happening or do you feel like there's
still much further to go? I mean, I definitely live
inside of a little liberal bubble of like very sex
positive people. So like I basically assume everybody's bisexual like
me until I'm told otherwise. So I do kind of
have to like check myself before I because that's what

(10:29):
I'll assume. I'll assume you're non monogamous and you're bisexual
unless you tell me otherwise, which is like uh so
like that kind of just shows like the little micro
consom in which I like exist. I mean, it's good fun.
Like the group of us are good fun, good fun.
All my friends are just bisexual queer folk. Its good fun. Um,

(10:49):
But I do you know, but then I also, you know,
I get letters every single day about like women who
from women, especially women identified people who will ask me
for sex and by one really like what they're describing
is like an abusive relationship and they're just like not
even aware of it because even though I love that
in a lot of public spaces, women are starting to
celebrate their bodies and starting to be more comfortable with

(11:12):
like allowing themselves to really like love themselves and be
hot and be sexy and like not feel like they're
just doing it for it's not. There's we're moving away
from the male gaze, like very slowly, but um, there
is like a ton of work still to be done.
We're not in like liberal sex positive utopia yet. So
hopefully someday only you're there, but hopefully you'll give it

(11:33):
to the massive this important work that you're doing, um,
and then we'll be able to see that reflected in
mainstream culture as much as it is. And this this
microcosm that you said you've been able to create for
your yourself and the people who are close to you. Yeah,
I mean, in a perfect world, everybody would just be
We wouldn't need any kind of labels, really would you
would just everyone can just see people. Um, I mean

(11:54):
like things like polyamory or um open relationships, phenomenogamy, like
they wouldn't be considered alternate a relationship styles. They would
just be like relationship stylves and nobody would make assumptions
about each other. And that would be a nice, a
nice world to live in. We could all just be people. Yeah. Well,
awareness and education is so much a part of that
process on on the journey to that, and that's why

(12:16):
I'm really grateful that you're here to educate me, to
educate our audience. UM, I want to just dive right
into some of the differences with some of these terms
that people may not be entirely sure about the differences
when it comes to them, kink versus fetish. What is
the difference between those two, because I honest to god,
I don't know right now. Okay, Well, kink is kind

(12:37):
of like the big umbrella term. It's uh, it's like
anything that is outside of what would be traditional heterosexual
intercourse UM, which can actually let but think surprises people
like basically if you think if you look at it
definitionally that way, like oral sex, sex that isn't for procreation,
sex between queer people, sex that does not involve penises,

(12:58):
like that's all kiki because it's not. It's not p
I D sex but that. But really it's like that's
sort of like the traditional terminology. Really, it's like it's
definitely become more nuanced, where like anything kinky is something
that falls outside of what we would consider like vanilla
or like normal. And the thing about kink is like
it's such a h a broad term that pretty much

(13:20):
anything can be kinky to anyone. Like you might think
that anal sex is really kinky, and another person might
think that getting tied up and into a shibarri chandelier
and being hung from the ceiling is like not that
big of a deal. So and they're like that sounds
like time, sounds like I need to stretch first. Yeah,
it's like kind of like to stretch my hips and
like gets my my human chandelier sounds great. So it

(13:42):
kind of like varies. Uh. Kink is often used interchangeably
with B D s M, but the two are not
They are the same, but they're different. So kink is
b D s N is kink, but kink isn't always
b D s M. And I'll break that down. Um,
so B D S M stand stands for bondage and
submission UH, dominance, submission, bondage, and sado masochism. So it's

(14:09):
like b D s M and they kind of like
fall into each other. So that usually the bondage aspect
has to do with UM, like rope tying with things.
Usually that it's usually rope or it's handcuffs, uh, something
along those lines. There's all sorts of bondage equipment you
can use. A lot of it is based on this
dominant submission role where the two or more people who

(14:33):
are involved in the play are willingly and consentually giving
and receiving control UM. So this can involve BS, some
can involve a lot of stuff. A lot of people
think that, you know, when you hear b DSM and medial,
people like, oh, fifty Shades of Gray, Like anyway, say,
I didn't want to be like shades, but it's the thing,

(14:55):
it's like I have, Like it's like love love hate
relationship with fifty shades because on the one hand, it
kind of like there was a lot of stuff that
was incorrect about it, and El James is honestly, it's
like El James was just like a novelist who was
just like talking shows. So she didn't she found like
a b DSM practitioner, so and so, and it kind
of painted b d s M in this light of
like if you if you practice b d s M,

(15:15):
then you must have had a traumatic background, when like
studies have shown that like people who are kinky or
or practice b d s M are no more likely
to have a traumatic background. It can be healing for
people with a traumatic background, but it's not necessary. At
the same time, I loved Fifty Shades of Gray because
it actually made b d s M mainstream and it

(15:36):
brought so many so many people had no idea that
this was even a thing. My mom had no clue
what b d s M was. You've never heard of it?
Who who schooled her? Well, she read Fifty Shades of
Grain and she kept calling it, mommy porn. It was.
It was honestly like the just like it was so
pure and so like that was and so it kind
of made it made it accessible for people. So it's

(15:58):
so like love to hate UM or hateful love, like
sort of the things that bad things about it. UM.
A fetish, on the other hand, is usually something that
is not a non sexual object or act that a
person requires in order to become fully sexually aroused or
fully enjoy a sexual experience. Um, with that being said,

(16:20):
there is so this this kind of ranges. It could
be something It could be something that is consider sometimes sexual,
like tips, like maybe tips have to be involved and
that's like if like otherwise like you're not going to
like the sex. Or it could be something like something
more weird, like your partner you need to be wearing
your partner needs to be wearing high heels, or like

(16:42):
mind went to feet. I feel like I'm always hearing
about like want to put like your feet in their
mouths or vice versa. And that's like that's the thing
that that does it for you. M A fetishes I
would it was kind of it's kind of been defined
is something that someone needed in order to have a
gratifying sexual experience. But with all things sexual reality, there
is a lot of nuance. So while the the you

(17:04):
may have a fetish for, let's say, have a fetish
for spanking, you may like have a fetish for spanking,
and to really like fully enjoy a sexual experience like
to your fullest you would want you would need spanking
to be involved. But you could have no have no
spanking and still have like have a good time. So
it's kind of like not putting things in such black

(17:25):
and white boxes that like are too defined, because people,
that's not how human sexuality exists. It's not how anything
exists when it comes to being a person, when it
comes to fetishes, is there ever, Um, well, I would
I would assume that the answer is yes. But are
there often spaces in which someone has a fetish that
they don't want that for whatever reason, it's here, I

(17:49):
don't like that every time I'm having a sexual encounter,
I need this thing and maybe I want to seek
help for or whatever it is. Um, do you find
that that's that that is really kind of a conception
about fetishes or is that a thing that people actually
deal with often? I have this fetish, I don't want
to have it. I mean again, it's like there are
people who have fully embraced their fetishes and they're like

(18:12):
all about it and they're like I am like, I'm like,
there's a fetish called splashing, which is where you meet
where you like to sit inside of jelly like substances,
like a pool full of jello and like have sex
in jello and maybe you've found your splashing community and
you fucking love it and you're like, I love my ship,
Like I am a proud splasher. I live my life.
But a lot of fetishes are completely are very shrouded

(18:33):
in shame and a lot and I would say the
vast majority of people who have a fetish probably don't
tell anyone about it or very secretive about it. We
don't live in a sex positive society where we accept,
we barely accept things that are barely accepted non monogamy,
like non monogamous sex. We still split shane women. How
are we supposed to accept someone who wants to suck
on another person's big toe. It's like we are not

(18:54):
there as a society. So there is a lot of
shame and often are shaped like so say you were
to have like if someone had a fetish around like
nylon stockings, it may be that they had like early
exposure to like their their mom with not like wearing
nylon stockings when they were really little, and those were
sort of like ingrained messages. It's not and like it

(19:16):
was kind of seen as taboo or it was kind
of wrong, and it's sort of built into a sexual fetish.
That's also possible that has just come from all kinds
of different things. We often bracted, like, there will be
a lot of trying. Psychologists will try to pathologize it
and be like, oh, it must be because you like
had some inappropriate thing happened to you, or like something
bad happened to you, and so now you have this

(19:37):
like like sicko thing. You like, that's not necessarily true.
It might have been like eighteen years old and you
saw like giant butts and a corn and you were like, oh,
that is my thing now, and then you're like grow
into a fetish. We we don't just like we're not
born with fetish just necessarily, so maybe sometimes we are.
There are things that people just discover about themselves. It's
like just it's like figuring out that the only kind

(19:58):
of ice cream you want to have is mint ackle
chuck who cares right right, like live your life, enjoy
enjoy them in. Yeah. When it comes to navigating those
sorts of those sorts of conversations with maybe a new
partner or potential partner, do you encourage people to kind
of um just come out of the gate asking people, Hey,
what are your kinks. What are your fetishes? Um? I

(20:19):
feel like I've seen stories where it's like, oh I
I realized a few months in that he was into
this or she was into this, and I was like, WHOA,
I don't know if I'm comfortable or oh my god,
this is awesome. Never tried it? Love? It is that
a thing that we can kind of lead with when
we're going on these these first date, second dates, maybe
considering a new sexual relationship with a partner, or do

(20:40):
you suggest easing into it? I mean, when it comes
it's something that's really I think when it comes to sexuality,
it's best to be open about it, no matter what us.
I do think that there is an element of understanding
that you may have a fetish or a kink when
we live inside of a very like heteronormative vanilla world,
and so you explaining it's almost like an issue of

(21:03):
consent because if you're explaining, if you tell somebody or
you really want them to like wear like so you
have like a headphone fetish, and like you need somebody
to wear headphones when you have sex with them, they
may consent to that because it's not like that hard
to put headphones on but they don't know. If if
you don't know how to explain to them what it
is about that about it that gets you off, you're

(21:26):
basically asking them to consent to something that they don't understand.
So then we get into sort of this moral quagmire
of like, can you really consent to something you haven't
that someone has not fully explained to you? Wait? Can
you I want you to expand on that a little bit, because, um,
when it comes to the issue of consent, obviously an
extremely important one, the most important before starting any sort

(21:49):
of relationship. But you know you use the headphones example,
so let's stick with that. If I'm really into sex
with my headphones on and I want my partner to
have it, do you truly believe that I am morally
obligated to make sure they fully and I'm truly asking
I don't know, but um to make sure that they

(22:10):
understand exactly why it is important to me or sexually
gets me off before they do it? Or is it okay?
Are there shades of gray forgive the pun um too?
To um? How do I see this shades of gray
to consent? Where you know we could be engaging in

(22:31):
this sexual act and because no one's harmed in it
or feels uncomfortable. They may not totally know why it's
getting me off, but they're down to do it. That
is that okay to you? Or do you feel that
it should be completely understood first, Like a lot of
people have fetishes, but they don't understand. Like you might
be asking your partner to put headphones on and you're
not entirely sure what it is, but you know that

(22:53):
they that the headphones is a fetish for you, but
just having a conversation, not just being like, here, put
these head I think they're here. Is where the line
is being like will you wear these headphones during sex?
And they say yes, But you haven't been like this
is a this is a thing I like during sex
because it's like a fetish I have. Then I I
think you start to get into later down the line,

(23:13):
they are going to start they may start to feel
uncomfortable because you haven't it fully expressed it. And I
think if it's going to be something you're going to
ask your partner to do, I do think you're morally
obligated to at least say it's a it's a sexual
fetish I have, or it's like it's a kink I
have if fetish, just like fetish is a very loaded word.
So if you if you want to be like, my
kink is headphones, it's just my thing, then that person

(23:37):
will understand that the reason they're putting the headphones on
is for sexual gratification, not and they won't be like,
I mean, I guess I'll put these headphones. I don't
know if that's about, Like, okay, some people don't even
a lot of people don't even know that fetishes are
a thing. So you you can tell somebody to put
headphones on it like would you would? Will you wear
these headphones? And they have no idea where they're even
doing it, And then they find out what it was

(23:58):
about and they're like, I didn't want I don't want
to wear headphones. That's like and now that you maybe
freaked them out about headphones, you know, we have to
just be really careful with each other's like we're quite
resilient and also quite we need to be gentle with
our psychology and with each other. I love the way
you put that um, particularly when you say gentle with

(24:20):
each other? Uh, what do you feel about the phrase?
Even alternative relationships is there a better phrase? Does that
imply that alternative means it's not the norm and will
forever stay in this category of not what the quote
unquote normal people do. I mean, I think where I
would hope we would hopefully move away from needing to

(24:41):
call it an alternative relationship style because it's just a
relationship style so um, instead of because like I would
hope that we would move away from just presumed heteronormativity.
It's like, it's so just the idea that somebody has
to come out as squeer is very strange change or
has to to me. I mean, like in a sort

(25:02):
of ethical sense. I know that that's like the culture
we live in, but nobody has to come out as
straight um or not, and nobody has to come out
as as monogamous. It's like it's just sort of presumed.
So instead of being like, oh, like it might be
a question you have, like, all, what kind of relationship
style do you have? Could be something that you ask,
it's like the same thing of like what's your favorite

(25:23):
kind of pasta? M I guess it's more it's deeper
than what's your favorite kind of positive? But not for
some but right, but yeah, maybe not for some and
to just also normalize it to the point that whatever
the answer is to this question, like nothing about someone
being like, uh love Indian food is going to be
off putting or oh my gosh, what does that tell
me about these people? Like that she eats Indian you

(25:44):
know what I mean? So I actually love that you've
sort of put it into that frame of mind when
it comes to how hopefully eventually we as a society
can approach conversations about other people's life choices, right, Like
I had said, like where it would just a really
ideal world would be like where there aren't presumed sexual identities,
Like you're not assuming monogamy or not assuming I know

(26:06):
that I said, I assume everybody's like bisexual and non monogamous.
But that's basically that's basically just me joking about subverting
the narrative and like, and I have to check myself
when I do that because that's the kind of like
that's the bubble I live in, because that's what I'm
exposed to. So it's just sort of an it's a
natural thing when that's all you see to assume. So
as like people move into more alternative like calling them

(26:28):
alternative relationship styles because that's the way people understand them.
So for now I would like to get away from it.
But for now it is like what we are using
as far as people understanding. It's kind of like labels
in general, like how people use you know, non binary
or like a gender like assists female or what or
what have you. UM. Those labels can be very limiting

(26:51):
and are built out of a patriarchal construct, but they
do help people find their find their other people, like
find their communities and find a sense of belonging one
of those communities. UM polyamory. We're going to have in
this episode a real life throuple, a three person couple
uh later in the show who are going to be

(27:12):
sharing their journey their experience UM in polyamory for our listeners,
can you explain exactly what that is UM and also
different ways in which it manifests, like different open relationships
versus a committed relationship between multiple people. Sure, so there's
sort of a there's a bunch of different types of polyamory.

(27:33):
This usually means like you're you're romantically dating UM and
sleeping with multiple people. Uh, there are there's a hierarchical
structure or a horizontalization, which would mean like there's the
primary and a hierarchy. There would be like the primary couple,
and then the third is like like a third person,
or maybe you have multiple other people, but there's a

(27:55):
like a main twosome. And then there are other relationships
that you have of that are maybe more serious, like
like or summer casual, and that can be like a
structure that you have. There's also um and then in
the case of a throatle uh, these are three people
who are usually in a horizontal structure where all partners
are at the same level of commitment to each other. Um.

(28:19):
They're not always monogamous sexually, but usually in a romantic sense,
they are like a unit committed to each other, right
and so, and that that can be. It's a wonderful,
it can be wonderful, but it's also complicated because I'm like, ah,
but all relationships are complicated, so it's not like but

(28:40):
because they're there. When you're dealing with two people, it's
like there's the relationship with yourself, the relationship the partner
has with themselves, and then your relationships. So those are
three relationships. If there are three people, it's everybody's relationship
with themselves, the relationship with these two, the relationship with
the other two, and then the relationship with these two,
and then the relations a ship of the whole. So

(29:01):
now you're managing like so many different you're managing multiple
a lot of a lot more relationships. So it's not
it's not difficult to do if you have a lot
of you use a lot of good communication, and you
really are committed to making it work. But like, but
that's the same with all relationships. So like, right to me,
when when I think about it, the only thing that

(29:21):
makes me anxious is I can, like my boyfriend and
I try to start out our communication styles and it's
like we've been you know, we're going on the same
things and we get better. But it's like, oh, so
it seems like almost more of it, more of a
commitment to me. To where some people think, Okay, they're
in a throuble or um they're living a polyamorous lifestyle.
Oh well, that's the easy way out. They're just having

(29:42):
fun with whoever doing whatever. I'm like, no, I think
they have to be more effective communicators than someone in
a monogamous relationship, more emotionally intelligent because just dealing with
two people in a relationship can be exhausting and challenging.
I cannot imagine managing more than two sets of emotions,
So I think it's impressive. I mean, there's like there's

(30:04):
a common saying in the in the Polly community where
it's like people have where it's talking and one percent
sex because people that's what people think that it's like, oh,
there's three of you, or there's four of you, or
or a quad which wuld be four people. Um are
like you're oh, you have an open relationship, so oh
there's like all the sex happening. You're life is wild.
But really it's like it's so much talking, so much

(30:25):
managing of each other's emotions and man making sure everybody
is happy all the time. It is like it is
like a lot. It's it's a lot. I personally couldn't
do polyamory because I just don't have the patience. I
admire people who can. I have a lot of throuble
and quad friends, but like I would like to lose
my mind with the talking. It's just so much talking,

(30:46):
so much talking. I know I'm the same way. I'm like,
oh my god, do we have to rehab this. Oh
my god, do we have to talk about our feelings
right now? So I would just be the worst person
in the throuble the quad. They would get rid of
me so quick because thank you, thank you, be like
like you give it up, therapist, Like why don't you communicate?
Like you're like no, is it like the hair style

(31:07):
is who's always has her hair in a ponytail, or
the makeup artist who like never has his glama or
his eyebrows because he's like, I'm too busy fixing everyone
else's faces or everyone else's hair too. That's actually I'm
I'm always with clients, like you know, helping them with
their relationship issues, like all day, every day. The idea
that I would then be in my personal life, not

(31:27):
that my husband and I don't constantly have to communicate
as we do, of course, um, but the idea that
there will be a third person there who I would
also have to manage and who would have to we'd
all be managing each other, is like, so giving me
her polititions because that's just like I just want to
like watch ships, creak and tune out girl, same same,
same one. Other alternative lifestyle I guess or alternative relationships

(31:52):
that is that. Um, we're starting to see a lot more. Um,
it feels like it's in direct response to hook up culture.
Is celibacy or abstinence and hook up culture stronger than ever?
And yet studies have shown that more millennials are opting
not to have sex until they've met their ideal partner
or because simply they don't want to have sex. We've
heard of virgins who are waiting for marriage, divorcee divorces

(32:15):
who are choosing to abstain, and then individuals queer and
hetero who are reclaiming their sexuality and deciding to just
kind of hold off on that until they explore or
spend more time with themselves. Um, we're going to have
a woman in this show in this episode also later
um talking about her story when it comes to abstinence
and explaining the choices behind that or the reasons behind
those choices rather. In your expert opinion, do you think

(32:39):
it's healthy psychologically for people to wait until marriage to
have sex. I mean I think that human sex. Trying
to judge someone's who sexuality is just it's irresponsible. People
decide to have wait to have sex or to have
sex for all kinds of different reasons, so definitely to
know more. Um that being said, I think that you

(33:02):
can't really know somebody without knowing who they are sexually.
It's such a big part of like I wouldn't want
I would never encourage a client to commit to marriage
if they hadn't known who someone was sexually. Someone's sexual
sexuality is even an a sexual person. Somebody who doesn't
experience sexuality, that is a key component of who they

(33:23):
are as a person. Who you are sexually is a
part of your personality. It's a part of your life.
And so if you don't, we are social relational beings.
I encourage most people to have sex as quickly as
you can. There's this idea that like sexist like this
intimate like it has so much like social social pressure
put onto it. But I would rat like, I think

(33:43):
people should know if you're a good lover, if you
know how where the clitteress is, if you are a
good communicator, what you're if they know how to set boundaries.
You learn so much of what you need to learn
about somebody by learning by having sex with them. Now,
if you're a person who is like choosing celidacy because
like that's a personal choice you've made, Like, live your
fucking life. I think we were so judgmental, like you're

(34:06):
either having too much sex, you're having not enough sex,
you're having bad sex, good sex, you you're a slut,
you're not having enough. It's like nobody can win. So
if you've made the personal choice to be sulivant and
you're like, I'm doing this and reclaiming my sexuality, I
don't want to have sex with people, that is your
choice and nobody has the right to tell you that
that's wrong. If you are doing that for yourself and

(34:26):
you feel empowered in that, like you do, you, I'm
curious to know. Do you ever feel that you know
having sex with someone who you're interested in? Say you are,
So I'll speak for myself. Right, I'm heterosexual. I've only
ever engaged in monogamous relationships once I'm committed, and I
have found that in my personal experience. UM. Sometimes I

(34:49):
look at it as putting the cart before the horse sexually,
because if I have which I have, UM, and it
only feels like it's before the horse, and hindsight in
the moment, I'm like, yeah, it feels right, so I
don't ever regret it. I'm like, that's when I wanted
to do it, but I feel like, um, we kind
of sped past certain conversations or and then maybe that's
just a reflection on the person that I was with

(35:10):
their dating at that time, but it felt like we
kind of sped past some of the getting to know
you because of this sex happening sooner would you say
that that's a reflection of a partner who is you know,
no longer willing to um get to know and discover
and uncover because they've gotten that that aspect and therefore

(35:31):
not good commentary on diving right into sex or good
perspective on it. If you The thing about it is
is like if you hook up with somebody because it
feels like it was right in the moment and that
then then that person loses interest in you, then they
did you a huge favor because that wasn't somebody who you.
That person was not for you. That says a lot
about their capacity for a relationship. They clearly weren't looking

(35:53):
for anything serious. And if somebody these sex as transactional
like that, then it's better that you find out it
away and then you can move on from it. If
somebody doesn't have a self awareness to see you as
like a fully formed human being deserving of respect, no
matter how casual or serious relationship is, then that that's
a huge red flag in itself. And maybe you had

(36:15):
a nice, fun sexual experience with that person and it's
like chow, see you later. Like I have no time
for that, because somebody who wasn't going to treat you
with respect um after having sex with you as not
a person who you want. I'm not a person who
was going to be respectful in a relationship with you,
whether you waited or not anyway, So true, so true.
What about on the opposite end of that spectrum, if

(36:35):
someone is deciding, you know what, I want to choose
abstinence right now, how do you navigate conversations? You know?
You mentioned the fact that you mentioned that you think
that you know people should know their partner sexually, and
I agree, Like getting into the idea of a committed relationship,
let alone a marriage and not knowing what you're signing

(36:57):
up for in that sense sounds terrifying to me. But
for people who decide they don't want to do the
physical act, I don't mean that it sounds terrifying to
not have sex necessarily, I mean to not know that
person even mentally or through exchanging communication about um, their
sexuality or their ideas around their sexuality. So how do

(37:19):
you navigate those sorts of conversations? Is there something that
you would recommend someone try when it comes to broaching
the subject of, Hey, we're not going to technically literally
have sex. How do we navigate these conversations around sex
even though we're not engaging in it? Like what should
the questions be asked? Like be aware of and something
that we could all everyone could use education on this.

(37:40):
The fact that we have this very bizarre to me.
It's very bizarre. I kind of understand, and I understand
where it comes from because of appropriation, But like, we
have this hierarchy of sex where it's like sex, penis
and vagina and everything else is like not sex, but
it's like everything is sex, Like oral sex is sex,
can sex and sex none. Nothing is more sex than
anything else. Um, as long as you're doing everything safely. UM.

(38:04):
So kind of doing away with the hierarchy I think
would liberate a lot of people, because I think that
there's a lot of pressure around this like p and
the v as being like sex and everything else isn't sex.
But like if you're engaging in in in sexual contact
even masturbation, like you're experiencing sexuality, like you're not you're
not like I guess you're technically solidate because you're by yourself.

(38:24):
But if you're like, it's like you're not waiting for
Waiting for marriage is usually built out of a place
of shame. It's not usually built out of a place
of empowerment, because if you think that's that sex has
that much weight, um, It's usually built out of like
a shameful religious background. That's usually where you'll you'll get
like a waiting for marriage or a lot and most

(38:47):
of it is built out of purity culture. This idea
that having sex makes you dirty, having sex makes you
less worthy of marriage, It makes you a less marriage
of marriable person, It makes you it makes you tarnished
in some way. When sexuality is is the same, sexuality
is not. It is a natural human thing that humans do,

(39:08):
but it is a learned like your sexual skills are learned.
Those are things that you learn. What you learn communication,
you learn your boundaries, you learn what brings you pleasure.
You learn what brings your partner pleasure. Every single person's
body is different. It is fucking complicated, and it takes work.
It's not you can't just drop into sex on your
wedding night and like boom, you're like amazing, that suck.

(39:30):
It will be that, Like I guarantee that. Um And
what what kind of like blows my mind sometimes is
I'm glad you brought up purity culture right because I
grew up I still identify as Christian, but particularly because
I grew up in a space where purity culture was
very much the thing, and I have since broken out
of that. But my virginity when I was growing up

(39:52):
was so prized, and even moving into college, I was
a virgin my freshman year, and I had just been
so conditioned to look at my as a prize quote
unquote because of my lack of um sexual experience or
even romantic experience, and some of the men that I
was interested in or that maybe dated me were more

(40:13):
curious or interested because of that. But in hindsight, it's
so like because like it was less about I'm interested
in Zuri and more about I'm interested in this version
and the possibility of being the one to make her
not a virgin anymore, which is so gross when you
think about the transactional it's this, it's this. It's so

(40:33):
dehumanizing for for to place women both both in this
like weird pedestal of being like the gatekeepers of sex.
And there's were in virginal like women like sex just
as much as men. And we're the ones who are
multi orgasmic while y'all are falling asleep. So I don't
even talk about it, um like, all right, I feel

(40:55):
like that there's there. It's like being proud of your
sexual he doesn't necessarily mean you're having sex with every
Being a sexually well person and being a sexually healthy
person doesn't mean you're having sex with every single person
that you see. I mean it could mean that if
that's what you want to do, you fucking do your thing.
Being an empowered sexual person means having sex you want
to have on your terms, and being a more. Being

(41:17):
a sexually grounded person who's sexually well is somebody you
know who knows that their worth is not built out
of like how many sexual partners they have. This whole,
the whole idea of virginity. Itself. It built out of
purity culture. It's absolute bullshit. I call it your sexual
debut of sexual contact, and it should be celebrated. It's exciting.

(41:37):
It's like, Wow, you've become a sexual person. How exciting
for you, how wonderful. And having open conversations with young
kids like from like we have. Basically, I think we
should follow the scriptive the Netherlands where they start having
open conversations about sex, consent and using proper names for genitals,
just not shrouding sex and shame from a very young
age because it's a very natural human thing. The thing

(42:00):
about sex and the thing about purity culture, it's like
sex only is shameful because we decided it was shameful.
Sex is not inherently bad. It is not a shameful thing.
Things only have meaning when we decide they do. The
minute we all are like sex as a normal we
see see it in the Netherlands. They're like, sex is
normally of the lowest STI rates, the lowest pregnancy rates. Yeah,
I love that you bring up the Netherlands. I have

(42:22):
an ex who's from the Netherlands, and so as I
got to know his Dutch parents and we had conversations
around sex, and it blew my mind how open they were.
It fascinated me talking about sex with us, talking about
our sex, talking about their sex kind of jokingly tongue
in cheek, but I was like, oh, I was mortified
based on what how I knew it would never happen

(42:44):
back home for me, like in my family. And yet
also loved it because you know, we would talk about
conversations about well, when did you guys start having sex?
And when when did you start talking to your child
about sex? And they're like twelve thirteen and do you
need condoms? Are you going out with your up front?
And I was like, what the hell is going on
in Holland, but also kind of loving it because it

(43:07):
people are gonna do what they're gonna what they want
to do. Kids are going to do what they want
to do. Teens are gonna do what they want to do.
Hiding sex from kids and no amountain rising virginity has
ever stopped anyone from fucking from human kind? Has that worked?
So why not facilitate open communication, teach young people how

(43:28):
to protect themselves, and do it in a way that
empowers them instead of shaming them out of the thing
that they're still going to do and then carry the
burden of that shame into these sexual experiences that will
inevitably happen. Everyone's gonna find them enjoy. Think, the only
thing that giving people information about sexuality does is increase
their awareness and makes them safer hiding information only. The

(43:50):
only thing hiding information does is increase pregnancy risk, increase
the spread of s t I S, increase shame and
like and and make it impossible to have conversations around
something that is as normal to the human experience is
eating or sleeping. And once we normalize sexuality that way
and such a equalized level like it, the shame goes

(44:11):
away by itself because we can give things, give sex
any meaning we choose, and just showing just looking at
the way people talk about sex and how natural it is.
It's like everybody, everybody has sex, so we should be
embracing it right exactly here here. Um, oh my gosh,

(44:31):
I feel like I have a thousand more questions to
ask you. I'm literally texting my producer right now, like
I need five minutes before I can hop on the
next call, because I want to do a couple of
ask a sex therapist questions. But before that, UM, I
just want you to clarify because I think I've made
the mistake of using it interchangeably a little bit during
this conversation. Certainly in real life, abstinence and celibacy two

(44:51):
different things. Can you explain abstinence and celibacy are as
abstinence and celibacy are the same? Okay, there's a difference between. Um.
Abstinence usually denotes waiting to have sex until marriage. Celibacy
is usually more of like a lifestyle decision that doesn't

(45:14):
have marriage or commitment necessarily on the table. Abstinence is
more associated with religion. Okay, got it sounds good. But
technically so I could be celibate. Well, what made me
ask this is you talked about the fact that solo
sex means technically you're experiencing sexuality. Um, is it safe

(45:34):
to say that you could be masturbating and still technically celibate,
or the fact that you're enjoying sexual activity at all
if you are abstinent because of the the implications that
you're you know, you're trying to remain pure, not that honestly,
and people who are saying that who are abstinent like
a lot of most of those people are masturbating. There's
just don't want to talk about it. They're very like shameful.

(45:56):
It's like shameful. But if you're celibate, it just means
you're not having sex with other people. So you could
be having you could be masturbating and consider yourself selibates.
Some people would say that that doesn't make you sell
of it, but again, like you know, all of these
terms are very nuanced. Abstinence would mean that you're not
having sexual contact I basically any kind because you're saving

(46:19):
yourself specifically be in the B sex because again like nuance, Okay,
got it. Got It's like a lot of a lot
of people who are Christian will will have anal sex
and then say that they are still virgins because they
didn't have that. And I am like hell no, like
I I look, I've had friends, you've done it, Like yeah,
we've done everything, but the B of the V like

(46:39):
we're in the bat we're doing this, I'm sucking on this,
and I'm like my world are you living in? Like
tribal virgin sex is not the way that the back
majority of clitterist owners have orgasms. I feel like we
have this like big expectation of how amazing it's going
to be, and then like you have it, You're like, wait,
really that's that's that's what I waited for. It Like,

(47:02):
I guess that was fine, Yeah, I guess. Oh my gosh.
The first time I had sex like a p and
the V sex, I was like, I don't think I
want to do that one again. No, it was that
just like lackluster. Just I was. It was like three humps,
like with a like a three dry humps on like
a friend's bed at like a party, and I remember
just being like I went home and cried my eyes

(47:23):
out because I was like, oh no, did you grow
up um in it in a space where you felt
like there was open communication around it or was it
that you kind of went into this blind like so
many of us. Well, you see, my mom was very
like she's very like sex positive, but she also had
she had a very militant Catholic mother, So she accidentally

(47:43):
had a lot of mixed messages, I should say, every inconsistent,
and she very much believed that because that's what she
grew up with. And this is only you know, taking
away the hierarchy of P and the V sex. It's
only very very recent phenomenon um for people of our generation.
So for her, she was like, oh he like like
sex meaning intercourse is like it's okay as long as

(48:04):
it's was somebody who you love and care about. So
like I basically had P P and the V sex
had no she didn't tell me anything else about sex.
That was basically what I just thought it was. So
I walked away from that experience like, holy shit, I
don't like sex. I am never okay. I don't think
I'm never going to do that again. And then like
I and I was like masturbating like crazy, not even
expecting that the two things were like related, right, right,

(48:29):
so much pleasure with this, like vibrating toothbrush, but like
it sucks. We've all had a vibrating toothbrush moment. I
had a shower head shower had changed my life. I
was like, what is this late to the party. I
don't know, You're like, oh right, the first time, like

(48:51):
the awkward contortion that I have found myself interacting a
convenient way for me to shave my legs, I know
exex oh yeah, you know, we just have sex, which
feel like yes, it's normal then, like that's normal that
that feels good. It's like that's not behavior. It's like
you know, that's like things we do in private, Like
it's totally normal and your fine, and it's there's nothing

(49:13):
to be ashamed about. Everybody does that, right right right?
Oh my gosh, that is hilarious. Um, I feel so
seen right now. Okay, one question that we have, Uh,
we all know about the infamous G spot. Do we
have any other spot that we can use to maximize
our pleasure? Um? Sure? Okay. So there are a ton
of orogenous zones. First of all, the G spot is
actually part of the clitteress. Other sexually erogenous zones, the

(49:36):
biggest one, um is are the nipples. Um. So we
have our our brain and our genitals talk to each
other through the spinal cord and like they have sent
good messages and bad messages back and forth. So if
you're hot, you're turned on in your mind, your genital
turned on. Then your genitals tell your brain you're turned on,
and it starts a nice cycle, um with the nip.

(49:57):
So this is called the genital cortex, that part of
your brain that like stup when your genitals are being
stimulated and it can be lit up by erotic imagery,
by anything that makes you feel sexually aroused. Um, the
nipples are like, for whatever reason, the nerve endings and
the nipples are connected to the genital cortex. So you
can stimulate the nipples and the part of the brain

(50:17):
that registers sexual sexual touching, we'll just light up. And
so people can actually have not everybody, it's not possible
for everybody, nor no orgasm is better than any other,
but there are people who can have their nipples stimulated
and fully have an orgasm just from that. Oh my gosh,
I wish, I wish. Okay, So the nipples and so

(50:38):
we've got the nipples, what is there maybe one other
zone to think about? I always hear about the prostate
with guys, right, yeah, I completely left the dudes out
of it. Um, you're like, oh, them state is like
is this walnut shaped cliant Like, honestly, la fucking l
that that Jesus made be in gay a sin and
then put the male juicepot up the guy's But that's

(51:00):
like the big that's the biggest law in history, to
be honest, it's the walnut shaped gland. And we're not
entirely certain why it is that it feels so good
to be stimulated, but it feels so fucking good. Like
they're it's like like it can increase orgasm and male
body people up to thirty three percent. And there are
guys who get so into anal play that they it

(51:24):
becomes like almost like addictive. They're like, I just like
I love it so much. It's like and now, oh
then maybe it's a fetish now because they're like, I
was just about to say, dare I say fetish prostate?
It's like stimulated, it feels so good, right, right, right, Okay, Okay,
we got a few zones. Um, last question, we're still quarantining.
You know, we're in different phases of socially distanced and

(51:45):
particularly for folks who are out here dating or trying
to make new connections. UM, if you're single and mingling,
if you're trying to you know, get your sexy, but
you maybe don't want to be out in these streets
potentially catching an infectious um uh virus. What can you
do to up your phone sex game? Because is there

(52:05):
anything you recommend when it comes to audio or FaceTime
without feeling awkward? I think a lot of people are
interested in it, um, but just chatting on the phone
with someone you're still getting to know it can be awkward,
let alone phone sex. Any keys or tips to pulling
it off in a way that actually feels sexy and
not only silly, because sometimes I feel like silly is
fun too. I mean, first of all, I think just
embracing the fact that it is going to be kind

(52:27):
of awkward and silly is like a really big key
component of it. That's the thing about sex in general.
We try to make it this like really serious, like
sexy thing, when sex is fucking weird and like it
can be so awkward and funny and like there are
people bodies make strange sounds, and it's like it can
be a very strange thing. So like kind of just
like neutralize and being like, I know this might be awkward,

(52:47):
but like would you want to do some like face
time sex and like sorry if it's awkward, like that
amazing immediately Like that uses it. Um, like the general
tension around it. UM sure that before you have video
sex or phone set that you ask someone if they'd
be interested in doing that, because there are you still
have to ask for consent. UM and you want to
be sure that everybody's on board with with the sex

(53:10):
thing or the FaceTime sex before you do anything that
might be crossing somebody's boundaries. So open communication is a
good thing. Also, like dressing something like set up your space,
like do the sexy fairy lights and wear the hot
little lingerie output that makes you feel good or it's
like a white t shirtas wanting me naked whatever, like
get your sex toys out, like like make yourself feel

(53:31):
sexy so that it's like a sexy environment, because make
it feel you make it as true to real life
as possible. Right when your camera is set up and
you feel really hot and so they get good view,
but you also feel comfortable because not everybody like I'm
the first person to be like just like full frontal,
but like I know that I am not I'm like

(53:53):
curating the angle so perfectly and then as it and
like that's and that's like that's totally fund Not everybody
is a sex therapist is going to be like here's
my It's like you guys, it's like you gotta be
gotta like good new level and what's comfortable and also
it is probably gonna be funny and weird and just

(54:15):
let it happen. I know I said that was the
last question, but I promise is the last one super
fast because it's a really important one. What is a
good way to bring up the topic of sexual health
for the first time with a new partner, particularly testing
when it comes to s T I S sure, I
mean the I recommend that if you're having sex with
multiple people that you should have you should be getting

(54:35):
regularly tested for S T S at least every six months,
preferably um every two to three. There's really convenient ways
you can do it just by you can do at
home testing kids, you can order them online. There's there's
a lot of places that do free HIV testing now
where you can just have a testmailed UM. So it's
it's really not that it's not super inconvenient. I know
it's difficult with COVID, but also just being like very

(54:57):
transparent because it's ton of people have Like most people
have some form of HBB at at some point in
their lives. Most people don't know they have it. People
who have Herpes type two will never show symptoms and
don't know they have it. It is not on a
regular STI panel. So there's just like certain things about
stuys in general that we just need to understand, um,

(55:19):
and just being really open and honest about like when
was your last test? And to be very straightforward, when
was the last time you were tested for STUYS? So
you mean just come straight out of the gate, just
asked plainly. Transparency is key. There's nothing wrong, it's like
it's anything else. It's like just because the reason we're
so weird about STI testing is because we're so like

(55:39):
shamed around sex. Meanwhile, it's like what was your last
COVID test? Like nobody gives a funk when you ask that,
because that must be bad, right right, okay honestly, and
when you say it like that, it makes me be like,
we're all ridiculous, Like, of course it shouldn't be that hard,
and it's not our fault that society makes it feel
that weird and hard. If I was with a new
sexual partner and they and ask or question my STI status,

(56:03):
I would be like, Oh, that's a person who doesn't
care about their sexual health. That's not that's a red
full flag, right we should really and s guys are
so common we need to remove the stigma around them
as well. There's only a handful of sti is, like
obviously h A B and certain forms of HBB can
be very dangerous, but most of most stus are either

(56:24):
easily treatable or easily curable. For instance, we have so
much hatred for the herpes virus. It's so benign. It
doesn't really do anything to you other than this like
skin rash, it's like having it's like getting vagina acne,
are getting penis acne, and we have, but because it's
sex related, we're like so freaked out. And nobody said
ship about a cold store. Meanwhile, that's also herpies, right right, right,

(56:47):
right right, way to lay down the law. Let us
know what it is. Gig I appreciate your time. If
people want to follow you, keep the conversation going, a
read your book, all of the things. Where can they
go my website which is miss g Angle dot com.
I also have a newsletter called The g Spot, which
you can find on my website as well and on
Instagram and Twitter. I am Gigi Angle, So come follow

(57:08):
me and let's be friends. Okay, thank you so much.
Gig I will be subscribing to that newsletter. As soon
as we wrap up this call, I can't wait to
get my my g spot into the inbox every week.
Is it a weekly newsletter? Yeah, it comes out every
single Monday. I'm like religious about it. Nice, nice, same
same as Hot Happy Mess mondays. I can't wait for
the Monday that this episode goes live. Thank you so

(57:28):
much for your time. I really appreciate you and your expertise. Absolutely,
I'm so excited to share. This is so fun. Thank
you again, Gigi so much for that conversation. And don't
forget you can pick up a new book All the
Effing Mistakes available now. Now moving into this next segment,
it's one of our signature Hot Happy Mess segments, the

(57:50):
Real Woman, Real Story segment. We all know hookup culture
is stronger than ever, and yet studies have shown that
more millennials are opting not to have sex until they've
met their ideal partner, or because simply they don't want
to have sex. That is plenty of reason enough. We've
also heard of you know, virgins who are waiting for

(58:10):
marriage or divorcees who are choosing to abstain, and then
individuals queer ant hetero who are reclaiming their sexuality in
waiting to have sex amidst a hook up culture can
definitely feel like an alternative or non traditional lifestyle. Sex
is promoted NonStop, and as with anything that doesn't fit
in mainstream society, people can scoff at traditional or nontraditional lifestyles,

(58:34):
including this one. And that's why I'm so grateful that
my next guest is sharing her story, her perspective, her
beautiful journey with us. So now I am joined by
an amazing woman who goes by the nickname of KK,
who is a twenty eight year old virgin who's waiting
until marriage before she loses her virginity. KK is the

(58:57):
founder and CEO of KKs Fashion Into the author of
the nonfiction book Belief Friends. To learn more about it,
you can check out our website KKs Day. Here's all right, well,
let's go ahead and dive in. Um, honestly, let's just
kind of set the scene for our listeners. Tell us
a little bit about yourself. Your twenty eight you're a

(59:18):
born again Christian, you were saved at a young age.
Just kind of set the scene for us. How did
you get to where you are? Where you've made this
choice to save yourself, to save your virginity for your
future husband. Okay, So, um, like you said, I got
saved at an early age. I can't remember exactly how
old I was, but it was either late elementary school

(59:39):
or early middle school. Um. And you know, honestly, waiting
until marriage was something that was h expected of me initially,
Like it was something that the church pushed a lot.
You know, they would tell you like, don't have sex
till you're married, you know, don't do this, don't do this,
and so say, it was just kind of like, Okay,

(01:00:01):
that's what I'm gonna do. However, you know, when I
started college at Michigan State University, I told myself, you
know what, I really want to wait because it's something
I want to do, you know, like I want this
to be my choice. And I started getting deeper into
my faith and I kind of just went on this
journey to mental and emotional wholeness when I graduated high

(01:00:22):
school and I realized, you know, waiting to marriage is
best for me because I'm I'm very emotional and I
just knew that, um, it would just be the best
decision for me. Um to wait. You know, you say,
emotional when when, And we all are obviously to varying degrees.

(01:00:44):
But what do you mean by that when you say emotional?
Is it that you felt that, you know, sexual connection
before marriage might get you too emotionally invested in a
way that you didn't want to be before you tied
the net. I think you really hit the nail on
the head. I'm I'm a very sensitive person, so I
think I'm an EmPATH to be. I'm super sensitive, and

(01:01:04):
so I just knew that for me, Um, you know,
I couldn't just randomly hook up with anybody. I'm just
I would get way too attach. And I know that's
it's horrible to say, but I just I knew myself.
I was like, you know what, I really I really
just need to wait till I'm married. For me, that's
really the best thing for me. And it was. It
was funny because when I actually did it for myself

(01:01:27):
and not just because I was told to do it,
it just felt really easy because it was something that
it was something that was coming from within, not like
you need to do this, you need to do that.
I think that when people go about it that way,
I don't necessarily think that's the healthiest way. It can
bring a lot of shame onto somebody, you know, if
they don't end up waiting. I just think it's better

(01:01:48):
that it really comes for me right, And I completely agree.
You know, this episode we're exploring like completely different. When
I tell you opposite ins of the spectrum, I mean
opposite ends of this grow when it comes to lifestyle choices,
when it comes to people's sexuality, some people waiting, some
people in polygamous relationships, and and and really disrespecting everyone's choice.

(01:02:11):
I grew up in a Christian household UM. I was
matriculent of the year. I went to an A. M. E.
Church and I was very much a part of UM.
Purity culture was something that affected me, and so I
carried my virginity into college. Hold any more, but I
carried it into college, and it was something that growing
up I had been really um. I hesitated to say

(01:02:34):
the word conditioned, but I had been taught to really
value it and prize it. Before you decided to do
this for yourself, what was it like growing up in
the church. Did you feel pressure from purity culture. Was
it something that you didn't feel pressured by, but just
kind of accepted as like par for the course, talk

(01:02:54):
us through kind of your your experience growing up in
the church and how purity culture kind of affected that.
So for me, it just made me very scared to
do anything. Um it just made me like, Okay, you know,
I really need to to save myself for marriage. And
there was that pressure, you know from the church to wait,

(01:03:17):
and like I said, that's you know, like that's kind
of like why I waited. And it was interesting because
you know, I didn't go to a Christian high school.
So it was like as we get older, you know,
people are doing more and more things, and you know,
by senior year of high school, I I didn't get
my first kiss, you know, I was and just to

(01:03:39):
be completely honest with you, you know like, um, I
didn't get my first kiss until law school. You know.
So I didn't you know, do that until till even
till to law school. You know. It was like I
really waited a lot, and I was just like I
was like very the lead here shout out to the
fact that you went to law school. You better from

(01:04:00):
that law degree. I love that. That's amazing. So you
were in law school around what age is this? So
I started law school at um age twenty and graduated. Agree,
so it would be like I want to say twenty
one was my first kiss? Okay, okay, one guy? Really still,

(01:04:25):
Oh my gosh. So I'm I'm curious to know is
that intentional? Is that? Is it really a thing where
you're like no physicality or very limited or has it
just been that you know, your dating life for whatever
reason just hasn't gotten you to that point physically. I
for me, you know, it was. I think that's a
great question. I really was intentional about that. As crazy

(01:04:48):
as that sounds, I was like, not only was I
waiting until marriage, it was also like you know, again
being super sensitive and not wanting to get too attached
to someone that you know, basically, I didn't want to
attached to anybody that I until I know it's a
serious thing. So I was like, you know, I really
want to limit physical interaction like that, you know. So

(01:05:10):
that's why I've even aside from sex, it's you know,
I waited long for that too, you know, which honestly
to me makes almost more sense because I'll be honest
with you, and I'm I speak candidly anyway, but I'm
speaking candidly and as someone again who um grew up
in a as a part of um, not just Christian culture,

(01:05:31):
but purity culture to a certain extent. And I'm still
a Christian, a practicing Christian, and so I say this
from a place of respect for my religion, for your religion,
for our shared religion. Um. But it what would always
blow my mind is, uh, my friends or acquaintances who

(01:05:52):
would be like, yeah, I'm saving myself from marriage, but
we did this, this, this and this, like but then
we didn't do that, but then we kind of did that,
but then I was like, yeah, up, And then I'm like, wait,
hold that. I don't think that's how it's supposed to work.
So what has that experience been like for you? Um?
I would imagine having friends, you know, family members who

(01:06:12):
are also who identify as Christian, who may be waiting also,
or who have waited before they got married. Have you
witnessed that? What is your your feeling or perspective on
people who you know identify as Christians say they're saving
themselves your marriage but maybe toe the line a little bit.
Maybe maybe you know learned Alie a little bit. I

(01:06:37):
that that's a tough one. But it's like you know,
how do I say this? I think that, um, everybody
definitely has their limits. I really do. I think everyone
has their limits. So it just it does vary from
person to person what you're comfortable doing before you're married. So,

(01:07:00):
you know, because I've met people, I'm friends with someone
who really good friends with someone who hasn't kissed anyone yet.
They're really into the purity culture, like heavy. They are
thirty one, but they're they're really heavy into it. Like
I remember another girl that I met in college from

(01:07:20):
a UM She was from one of my college classes,
and her religion she was Muslim and she had also
never kissed anyone too. Um. So I've met people from
different faiths that are heavy into the purity culture where
they've never kissed anyone and they're not going to kiss
until they're married, and I totally respect that. And I've

(01:07:42):
also met you know, I've also have other friends that
are virgins, but they've done you know, they've done like oral,
you know, they've they've done more. So I definitely, um,
I definitely for me, you know, I you know, I'm

(01:08:03):
not saying that you can never kiss until you're married,
but for me, I still wouldn't do. Like you've said
all you know, all those other things before you know, Um,
but that's that's just me, you know, your personal choice. Yeah, yeah, absolutely, Um,
so you're open note to like kissing, not to get
all in your business about what you're going to do
in the future, but if you would be open to

(01:08:24):
you know, if you're dating someone, like kissing is fine,
that's yeah, I think you have Kissing is fine, I think,
But definitely I wouldn't just you know, kiss anyone of course,
because that's still like a thing. But you know, if
you're hey, if you're if you're engaged, I I don't
see a problem with kissing. Um. So I'm not saying
that I'm like no kissing until marriage, you know, No,

(01:08:45):
you know what I'm saying like that that stuff is fine,
But of course, like when you're getting to the real
almost crossing that line, I do agree with you on
that where it's like, oh you know, um, for me,
it's it's again, I know everyone has their different limits
and what what they're what they're good with the right right. Well,

(01:09:08):
you know that's just for me. When I went into
my freshman year at Ohio State, I was a virgin
and I talked about that a little bit in this episode.
And I'd only had one kiss when I showed up
on campus, UM my freshman year, and I'm talking about
literally one kiss, and it had just happened at the
end of my senior year, UM. And it was a

(01:09:30):
really interesting experience for me being one of very I
think I was the only virsion honestly that I knew
in my close friend group at the time. So my
experience was pretty interesting because of that. And I'm curious
to know what was it like for you, not just
freshman year, but throughout your collegiate years entirely, when people

(01:09:51):
are experimenting for the first time, a lot of people
are drinking for the first time. Hook Up culture now
more than ever is such a thing, and it while
to think, you know, you're you're a virgin, and this
could easily be put into the category of alternative lifestyle,
the same way someone who identifies as a polygamist or

(01:10:12):
you know, something else might be alternative. Um, how was
that for you? So for me, I would say like
it started getting hard in college just because the number
of virgins just started dropping. So it's like you just
start out with people being virgins and then it just
it just starts dropping. So it's like you're you have

(01:10:36):
less people that you can identify in that way, for example, UM,
and then you're like the only one that's a virgin
UM out of your friend group or just people you know.
And that's when I was like, you know what, I
really need to decide if I want to wait, you know,
or if I want to not wait. And that's when I,
like I said earlier, kind of got deeper into my

(01:10:57):
faith and realized, you know what I'm gonna I want
to do this for me. And once I once I
I said that, it was like I didn't feel that pressure.
But I did feel pressure in college, um, you know,
kind of like the middle of my college year years,
like my second year. I did three years in college,
but so my second year, I would say, that's when
I really felt the pressure and felt kind of alone

(01:11:19):
in that. But when I went to law school was
super easy because I you know, I had already I
told myself, Hey, this is what I'm going to do,
and if someone doesn't respect it, you know, hey they
don't have to not everyone's going to respect what you do,
and you just have to stand stand tall and what
you want to do good for you, And also law school,
I just feel like when would you have the time anyway?

(01:11:42):
You know. The funny thing is also keeping it completely
hundred Like I went to law school and like a
really small town. It wasn't like I went to law
school and like Detroit or New York City where there's
so many different people. So I mean someone and then
like see him the next day, the next day, you

(01:12:02):
know what I'm saying. Like, So, I mean that was
even another like incentive to to not do that. Obviously,
you know I was doing doing it for my my
my reasons, my religious reasons, my personal convictions. But and
I was like, uh no, that's too messy, right right,
Like wouldn't do it even difficuld Like now I'm not

(01:12:23):
going to blow those lines. Um, how has it been
for you, especially now in your late twenties, navigating dating
When you talk to guys and you say, I mean,
do you say, hey, I'm a virgin? When do you
decide to broach that subject if you ever do? Um,
will you only date people who are also virgins or
who are currently abstinate? You know what? For me, I

(01:12:48):
don't have to date somebody who's a virgin. You know,
if you're not a virgin, cool, you know, it's just
you know, someone that is willing to respect you know,
us way together until we get married. You know, you
could have had sex with thousands of people before. If
you're true to you know, to wait with me. I
respect that. I'm not going to look at your history

(01:13:10):
or anything like that. And you know, and then how
do you bring it up on our First of all,
are you actively dating? Do you actively date? Or are
you kind of like when it happens, it will happen,
But I'm not you know what the funny thing is
that I definitely I I'm not like actively talking to

(01:13:30):
anyone right now, but you know, I'm like I'm praying
you know, I'm praying it in there. You know, I'll
put it that way. I will receive if you just
want to YEA, how is it for you dating or
maybe just even being open to guys, like when it
comes to the apps and stuff like that. Like I

(01:13:51):
hate to be like typical and be like Christian mingle,
but like where do you um kind of keep your
eyes most open or is that a struggle for you
or are you like it's so hard to find the
type of guy I'm looking for, particularly in a secular world. Oh,
you know what, I am on some you know, I

(01:14:11):
did some dating sites like I think it's pronounced zeus
or something like that, So you know, I did try
that out a little bit um and you know a
lot of people reach out on there. But you know,
I'm you know, I'm kind of picky to be Okay, Okay,
we have talked about this. He's kind of picky. How

(01:14:32):
picky are we talking? How long is your prayer compared
to see Harri's. I mean, it's not it's not like crazy. Honestly,
I'm kind of I'm kind of messing around here, but
I honestly like when I pray for my husband, I
pray that I have the husband that God hand picked
for me. It's actually shorter than Sierras. It's not like crazy,

(01:14:53):
because like I feel like, sometimes we don't even know
what we want. And I feel like, honestly, at the
end of the day, God ultimately, and this is me
speaking from a Christian point of view, Like I really
do believe that God has the handpicked a person, special
person for everyone in this world. And I feel like
I feel like, you know, sometimes we want something, but

(01:15:15):
that's not what we need. And I feel like, hey,
if I just pray, like, hey, God, just give me
the guy that you handpicked for me, well I'm good,
you know because he because he knows better than me.
That's how I feel. So you truly are saying that
will be done. That's what you're praying for, that the
man that is for you is the one that shows
up exactly. Wow, that's that's beautiful because I'm always like

(01:15:39):
that will be done. However, if you could just consider
please um, but truly I do, I do respect that,
and that takes a lot of UM grace. And you know,
regardless of how someone identifies, whether they're Christian, whether you know,
maybe they're nondenominational, they're Baptist or whatever, whatever your religion

(01:15:59):
or lack care of UM, letting go of attachment is
something that is so important to the human condition and
my opinion when it comes to peace UM in the
middle of the unknown, and particularly as a part of
my Christian faith, I'm realizing there's so much overlap between
um letting go and letting God right as we know

(01:16:21):
it to be traditionally and what some other people might
just say just let go and let the universe provide
or legal of attachments, and fundamentally it is the same
thing to me in my opinion, And it's so hard
to let go of our ideas about what our life
is supposed to look like, what our partner is supposed
to look like, what our is supposed to look like,

(01:16:42):
and so to for you to be able to say,
you know, God, your will be done, that is my prayer,
that is the thing that I want and put a
period at the end of that. I think takes a
lot of um self discipline and control and faith, a
lot of faith, and I respect it. Um. I'm curious
to know. Uh. You know, so you don't have a

(01:17:04):
long list. You truly are open to to God and
what he will bring your way. Um. But if the
listeners just happen to have you singles in the mix,
what would you throw out? Is some on the short
list of what it would be nice if he had
We're not no requirements, but what would be nice? Where

(01:17:24):
do I start? You know? What? I want a man
that really that really has a good heart, like a
heart after God, and a heart that will love me
like God loves the church as they say, you know
that man that will really you know, it's real caring,
real sensitive, you know, real romantic. Um, I definitely like that.

(01:17:47):
I also like a tall guy. Okay, how tall? How tall?
How tall are you? I am almost five seven, I'm
like five six three quarters? So she round it up,
she looking at the siler will go up instead of
downy stick and three quarters literally, and I always round up.
I'm fine, but um, but you know six ft above

(01:18:09):
won't be bad, you know, like, okay, okay, so tall,
you know that that is you know that never hurt.
You know, a good build. You know you could be
a little bigger to you know, just not super tiny,
you know, a little bigger. What does that mean our
muscle a little more cushion? I don't want to say
in the verge Oh yes, sorry, mess in my hot

(01:18:31):
happy messes coming out right now. No, No, it's cool.
I mean, but um, you know, a bigger guy like, um,
muscular is good or even you know, not even muscular,
but just a little I'm trying to think of somebody,
you know what, there's this I know who like a

(01:18:52):
Vince Vaughn looking kind of guy. Tall, yes, just like um,
what is it called? Like just big and tall energy.
I don't know what that bill is called right now,
it's escaping me. But like he's little tall, like six five,
like a little burly, a little stocky, just a little
or like um, he gets that guy Blake, Blake Shelton. Okay, okay,

(01:19:17):
like that is Blake, big and tall future. How tall
is Blake every time I interviewed? Okay, okay, six foot
got it? Got it? Okay? Alright, well ladies, hot happy
mess gang, get to work, alright, if we have any
eligible bachelors to slide into KKs d MS. You know,
hook a sister up twenty eight years she's she was

(01:19:39):
worth the way, so clearly she deserves her king. Alright,
she has been patient. Um before I let you go. Um.
In all seriousness, the commitment that you have to your
decision is impressive, but that doesn't make it easy. And yeah,
I would love if you could just want to tell

(01:19:59):
me has it ever been difficult? Have you ever been tempted?
And also I asked that as a way to be
transparent and open to people who listen who might be
going through a similar journey or considering a similar lifestyle choice.
And I think it's important not to romanticize it because
it's hard sometimes, you know, Like when I was a
virgin and actively committed to remaining one, it was hard.

(01:20:22):
I am a sexual being. I get a party, like
you know what I mean, Like it was difficult, but
it was still an active choice. So is it is
it the same for you? Has it been different? Do
you still struggle with that desire? We are sexual beings innately,
God made us in that way. It's just a matter
of controlling that and what it's for, particularly in your

(01:20:42):
in your lifestyle choices. So I think that's a great question.
I would say that it couldn't get hard when you're
actually like into somebody, like you're you're actually into someone,
you have that crush, or you're dating, you know, you're engaged.
I feel like that's when it's actually really hard. So
for me right now, it's it's not hard, but I

(01:21:04):
know that, by God's grace, very soon when that king
comes in, you know, um, I realize it's going to
be hard because at that point, you know it's here's
the thing. It's easy to say that it's easy when
there's no one in your life that you're interested in,
But when you're really attracted to someone. That's when you

(01:21:25):
have to like actively be like, oh, okay, right, go
take a shower exactly. And I also think it's harder
for people that have had sex before who are choosing
to become solidate because I know people that you know,
they had sex and they're like, you know what, I'm
gonna wait till marriage now. And I think that's when
it's really hard because you've experienced sex before. So I'm

(01:21:50):
definitely aware that since I have never had sex, it's
not it's it's easier to to not want to do
it because I've never done it before. So I definitely
acknowledge that. Um. So yes, I'm I'm kind of bracing
myself for when, by God's grace, you know, that husband

(01:22:12):
comes in my life and you know, I'm gonna be
real attractive to him, you know, and we'll talk. Then. Yes,
we're gonna have to do a follow up episode. We're like,
so she's a wife now, how yes? Yes? Um, well,
your your journey is really special and unique obviously, and

(01:22:35):
I appreciate you sharing it with our audience. Um, if
there were just any parting words that you could share,
whether it's about um, your lifestyle, choices, your choice to um,
you know, abstain until you're married to anyone maybe considering
this sort of lifestyle choice, or even to someone who
doesn't understand it and it's like, I don't get it
doesn't make sense to me. Whatever. I just want to

(01:22:57):
open up the floor to you to kind of speak
your piece. Well, you know, I'll say this to people
that are really wanting to wait. Whether you've never had
sex or whether you've had sex and you're choosing to
be celibate, Um, you're worth the weight. So if you
want to wait, just know that you are amazing and
you're worth the weight. So if someone doesn't want to

(01:23:20):
wait for you and they get offended that you are
telling them, hey, I want to wait, they're not for you.
And what I liked about the idea of waiting is
that I knew that if someone refused to stay with
me because I wasn't sleeping with them, I'm like, it

(01:23:40):
kind of just weeded people out for me. And that
kind of just jumps back to just keep that in
mind that most people that are waiting, they want just
that one guy, one girl you know too, to spend
their life with. Right, You're not gonna have to marry everyone.
It just that one. So if they would, if they

(01:24:03):
don't want to, wait, they're not for you. So so
just stand true in your beliefs and just know that
at the end of the day you want to be
doing it for you and make sure that's something that
you truly want to do and you'll find someone that
will respect that. So well said kk. If people want

(01:24:24):
to follow you, keep up with you, maybe chat with you,
sliding the d M s if we've got some single
man here, Um, where can they find you? Where can
they keep up? My Instagram is KKs way ninety two
and so follow me on there. Also, my website is
KKs w dot com. That's spelled k y k y
s w a y dot com and you can learn

(01:24:46):
more about me and kind of follow me there and
feel free to send me an email if you want
to talk. I love talking to people, so um yeah,
that's where you can find me. Awesome, Kak, thank you
so much for sharing your story with our audience. I
appreciate it. I appreciate your time. Go bucks still, but

(01:25:06):
you're you're a pretty you're a pretty cool Michigan or
I gotta say thank you, thank you, thank you. It
is a pleasure speaking to you, and thank you so
much for having me. Thank you so much again to
k K for sharing her amazing journey. Girl, we want
to look out for you, says all right. If y'all
know any eligible bachelor's go ahead and fine KK on
the Graham and slide in the d M took her up. Okay,

(01:25:28):
I hook her up next up. I'm really excited about
this conversation, y'all. They were so much fun, such positive,
good vibes and good energy. The Trifecta Love Cassandra, Carly
and Paulo are a polyamorous thruble sharing their authentic selves
and relationship with the world and hopes of shedding light

(01:25:50):
on love and all of its different forms. Their goal
is to open up the question and prove that there
are different types of love. Just because it's different or
you need doesn't mean it's anything less than what it is.
They hope to keep spreading love and understanding with the world.
You they are, first of all, just thank you so
much for us sitting down with me to talk a

(01:26:12):
little bit about your relationship and your story. Um, let's
kick things off with pow to start off. When you
describe yourself to to you know, people you're meeting or
explaining your relationship dynamic, UM, throuple, polyamorous, How would you
identify yourself? How do you like to be referred to
when it comes to the three of you in your relationship.

(01:26:33):
I typically use Polly, but I mean it depends, I
mean if I feel comfortable with the other because it's
also such an unconventional relationship that sometimes you know, it
just depends on where the conversation goes if if that's
something I want to let people know. You know what
I mean. But the most Polly, and for those who
you know are new to this lifestyle or learning the differences,

(01:26:55):
I think it's really important to differentiate between polygamists and
those are who are polyamorous, because I'll be honest, I
did not know the difference before you fear, and those
are two very different things once I realized the difference.
So whoever wants to take it, but can you just
break down for us what's the difference between polyamorous and polygamist? Yeah,

(01:27:16):
polygamy is when um there is a um man or
a woman who has two completely separate you know, two
or more completely separate um real relationships. So that's when
the term you know, sister wives, which I'm sure it's

(01:27:38):
a very commonly heard word. I'm sure you've heard of
that word. So that's what um polygamy pertains to write,
whereas polyamory is more UM. But we have where all
of the parties are involved, right, So all we're all
um in a romantic relationship. So that's what kind of

(01:28:02):
makes it different, right right, it's it's a very different dynamic. Yeah,
I got it night and day. Once I realized, I
was like, oh yeah, those are two very different things,
very different. Um. Now, before we get into um, you
know Carly, when you came into the fold and joined
this relationship, let's take it all the way back to

(01:28:24):
Cassandra and Pal. You've been married for over seven years correct, Yeah,
we are going on nine years next month. Wow. Yeah,
that is amazing. Congratulations. Um, when you first started out
in your relationship, um, was it always the intention to
be in a polyamorous relationship? How did the two of

(01:28:45):
you start your your romantic connection? So, I mean when
we first got together, there was absolutely no thought of polyamory.
We didn't even know the word existed or that type
of relationship. Of love existed. Um. We just we just
thought it would be us too, all the way all
the way through. UM, and I think that we would

(01:29:05):
joke around, um with you know, we got we got
to a point where like we just we were so
comfortable with each other and we're comfortable with some of
the things that we were sharing with each other that
we just played around very lightly, kind of like you know,
possibly fantasizing with maybe another person. Yeah, I mean we
have to understand, like our dynamic is like he's my

(01:29:28):
best friend and she is my best friend, you know,
and at that time it was just us too, and
we were very like right like people would laugh because
when I'm like, oh this is my husband, hey baby,
Like we would kiss and like dab each other up
like he's like, he's my best friend. Um. So yeah,
we started out kind of like joking and then eventually, um,

(01:29:51):
you know, we like opened up the actual conversation and
it led us to having honest and open and transparent conversations. UM.
And we wanted to we wanted to get to a
point where, you know, I wanted to know everything that
was going on in his mind, where he didn't judge
himself and vice versa. You know, like, if I wanted

(01:30:13):
him to know what's going on in my mind, and
if I'm not judging myself, he should either I shouldn't
judge him. So how could we open that up? So
that's where it started first, and those conversations lead to um,
just other conversations and other possibilities, and eventually we began
to have an open relationship UM. And we did that

(01:30:33):
for about a year and a half close to two,
and then we met Carly okay, and then and that's
when we were like, what are we feeling? What is this?
And then we started looking it up and then we
learned the word that's fascinating. So initially there was about
a year and a half or so where it was
an open relationship, but it wasn't necessarily um, we're thinking

(01:30:55):
about being in a relationship with more than just the
two of us at one time, exactly. Yeah, you would
blame all of this on her because it was not
something we first saw like it was intention it was.
It was not that at all either. I mean much,

(01:31:18):
I'm not putting anyone. I was like Carly was like,
y'all gonna have to put a ring on it because
I'm not just about to be out here. UM. So
that point did um, you know you met Carly. I'm
assuming at that point it was a part of the
open relationship dynamic. Was one of you maybe like dating
her or hanging out with her without the other and

(01:31:38):
then introduced her into the fold or how did it
work we? I mean, I think the best part of
about our story is that we met at the same
time her and she was with her brother at the time,
so we met her family like at the same time. Um.
And there was an instant like connection, even with her brother,
like it was like these are like family. It felt

(01:32:00):
like you know what I mean. And with her we
had an instant chemistry and attraction. UM. And I think
that they they developed an attraction later on. I think
it was closed off because it was and this is
my husband, but I wasn't a relationship at the time. Also, Yeah,
so that's why, as far as you know, it came

(01:32:21):
when it came to him, that door was just closed
at that time. Got it. So we hung out as friends,
but there was like this undeniable chemistry that we had
that was like it hurt almost like being around each
other and not being able to express what we were
feeling because we weren't allowing ourselves to you know. And
then eventually as we all hung out more and more,

(01:32:45):
even with her family, we just like kept hanging out.
There was a connection in chemistry that developed between them.
And that's when I was like, Okay, what's happening here.
That's fascinating. So I am so curious to know because Andrew,
for your point of view, Um, what was that like
for you to to witness ray, like the chemistry building

(01:33:06):
between you know, your husband at this point in Carly also,
were you like just totally into it? Did you feel
some type of way at first? And then you're like, nah,
I'm more into it than feeling some type of way.
What what was the reaction? Yeah, so, I mean in
the beginning, right, so we had been open married for
like almost two years, and so I had I had
witnessed that before and it wasn't It didn't bother me

(01:33:27):
at all. Like that's an easy thing to deal with
because it's an it's an attraction. It happens and then
that's it. Um, But this time, that wasn't it. You
know what hurt more or was more challenging was when
we were already well into you know, being with each other,
being around eatili, hanging out with each other, and I

(01:33:50):
heard I love you for the first time, you know,
from him to her. I had never heard him to
say I love you to another woman other than his mom,
you know, And so that is actually really challenging when
I saw, you know, it become deeper. Um. But I
was also simultaneously feeling the same thing. So it wasn't

(01:34:10):
like it wasn't like a jealousy. It was just like
a way, am I ready for this? Like this is
a scary territory we have never discussed, you know, it
was just scary. It was just you know, I know,
that's all it was, you know. Um, But we obviously
overcame that. You know, how long ago was that? How

(01:34:32):
many years ago? That was? Okay? So about three issue
years now to three years okay, So curly from your perspective,
coming into this situation and this already established dynamic, what
was it like for you initially? You know, Cassandra was saying,
you guys are all just hanging out. It's platonic um.

(01:34:53):
What was going through your mind from your p O
V And when did you realize, wait, I kind of
want more from both of them. Yeah. Yeah, oh man,
it was terrifying. It was yeah, it was really scary,
you know, very confusing. Um it it was just it

(01:35:13):
was a lot, It was everything, you know, like it
also it was exciting, but also like you know, very scary.
But um, I knew from the jump that there was
something here, just something like undeniable, you know it. No
matter how hard I tried to stay away from them
and like not not pursue anything, I just couldn't. Like

(01:35:34):
I couldn't I physically, emotionally mentally just like could not.
I could not pull myself away, you know, even though
even though I knew, like this is something, you know,
this could totally end up like completely falling apart. And
now I'm heartbroken by two people, you know what I mean.
Like I knew that there was like such a risk

(01:35:55):
in it, you know, um, but I don't know. The
love was just so strong that I was like, I
just have I just have to see what happens, Like
I have to stay true to how I feel and
just try it and you know, see what happened. That
was really the only option for me at that point. Um,

(01:36:15):
you know, because it was such a strong feeling um,
but yeah, it was. It was. It was a wild
ride in the beginning. Same and people thought I was
insane too, you know, for entering a marriage. People thought
it was crazy. We all thought, well, I thought we
were all really naive. You were naive in what way,

(01:36:38):
like just thinking that it would be easily accepted or
that it would be easy for you three to figure
out how to do this. I think I think it
was the fact that we were We weren't like in
the in the jump like it was. We were just
so focused on the now and what was happening when
we were feeling we're like in our own little bubble.
When we realized that we were all feeling the same thing,

(01:37:00):
that's when the naive and its started to you know,
shut off, and we were like, holy crap, what does
this mean? What I look like? What are we going
to hear from people like just It was scary. But
what was interesting about that conversation is that none of
us we're afraid of like our relationship with God or

(01:37:23):
like just us individually. Was like we were all concerned
about society. People were thinking, And then I was like, yeah,
so he grew up in a society where this was accepted.
Would we even have these fears? And that's when we
realized that the fear was fake because it was just conditioned.
And then and then it was like, well, let's just
try it then yeah? Yeah. And how was it in

(01:37:44):
the beginning, the trying it? Like? How much navigating emotions?
How many uncomfortable conversations because just two people trying to
figure it out isn't not right? Like I get exhausted
just trying to like get through one argument with my boyfriend.
To him, I would have been like, oh my god,
I just I can't. So I I jokingly say that
because you know, we had a sex therapist on the show,

(01:38:05):
and I was like, I give it to anybody who
can navigate a relationship with more than one person, because
one is already so much. It's so much communication and
you have to be so emotionally intelligent to manage everyone's feelings.
Was that easy for the three of you initially or
or what was it like when you decided we're doing
this and we're going public with it. Oh yeah, it

(01:38:26):
was not easy at all. It was it was Oh man,
it's so hard. We definitely have learned so much because
in the beginning. Um. Yeah, it was new territory, new
territory for all of us, you know, and we definitely
um I mean put it this way, Like six months
in I almost left. Yeah, really why because we weren't

(01:38:48):
communicating properly. I thought we had. I thought we were
communicating properly, but I wasn't being totally honest because I
didn't want to. I didn't want to ruin it, right,
But I was like holding back when I was actually
feeling because I didn't want to, you know, make this
fall apart, because if if what I was feeling was
too hard for us to handle, then this wouldn't work.

(01:39:10):
So I just kept holding onto it. And then it
just exploded. And what were you feeling like? Well? I
was feeling like maybe they were more compatible I was.
I mean, you know, when we had when we were together,
just us too, you know, we complimented each other so
well in each other's endeavors. And we were in a
transition in our in our marriage where I kind of

(01:39:32):
set off to just build my career and he on
his own, whereas prior to that, we were building everything together.
So this was new for us. Now throwing the mix.
You know, we have a new partner and she was
trying to find her role, and her role UM was
more efficient in aiding him at the time in his

(01:39:53):
career than it was mine. And so then I was like, Wow,
that's what I used to do, And why do I
have this huge pass and pursuing this career and now
someone else is coming in and able to aid him.
Maybe I just love you need to be here. Maybe
this was a sign. Maybe maybe that's where she came
into our life. You know, that's like all the stuff
I was going through, everything else going through. UM, how

(01:40:15):
did you bounce back from that? Like it blew up?
What did that look like for the three of you
those conversations. Yeah, I mean we we like always are,
you know, honest and transparent and how we communicate, so
that that was like not an easy moment to to

(01:40:37):
talk through. It was really emotional. We really had to
like unpack a lot, Like it was not a lot
of tears. It was not easy. A lot of tears,
a lot of Yeah, it was a hard conversation. I remember,
like I think you said that day, give it three
days or something like that or something, give it a
couple of days before it was like completely you know,

(01:40:58):
um out and in that I said, you know, I agreed,
and I journaled everything that I was feeling, like, I
just wrote it all down because I didn't know how
to how to articulate it. So I wrote it all
down and then I read it to them and there
was just so many tears from what I was saying
and um, and then I saw how much they loved me,

(01:41:20):
like I sharing this with them and seeing how much
it broke their heart that I was feeling this way
made me realize this was all a narrative I created
in my head because I wasn't communicating, you know, I mean,
And then that's what broke my wall down. And then
I realized, like, I'm I'm leaving out of false you know,
a false idea I mean, and those things happen all

(01:41:43):
the time. Go ahead, Carly, what were you saying? Um,
I was just gonna add that that. Then you know
that that moment sparked some like sparked it insecurity and
in in myself because then, you know, I was put
in a place where I felt like I made destroy
their marriage. And so that was kind of the first
time that I felt like, you know, maybe I should like,

(01:42:07):
you know, maybe I should leave because I don't want
to hurt their relationship. And so that was kind of
like my internal struggle was like, you know, maybe I'm
not you know, maybe I'm not Maybe this isn't you know,
he is. I don't want to pracrifice there or or
to compromise their love, like to include me, you know
what I mean. So that kind of like that's what

(01:42:28):
that then sparked to that kind of emotion. It's good, though,
to hear you you all be honest and real about that, right,
because it's easy to sell someone a dream for anything,
like any lifestyle choice, but to be like, no, it
sucked and it was hard sometimes and I was insecure,
I was jealous. Like I think being transparent about that,

(01:42:49):
UM is so relatable. We could all relate to that
regardless of what we are aren't doing in our own
personal lives or our own lifestyle choices. So I love
hearing that sort of vulnerability because it's really strikes record
with me and UM, it's awesome to see that you
were able to not just bounce back from that, but
deep in your bond after it and grow stronger together, Paolo.

(01:43:10):
From your perspective, UM, after that sort of like great
sit down where you guys kind of hash it out
and got through all of those emotions. What were the
new if there were new rules, what were the boundaries? Um?
What kind of guides your relationship now between the three
of you? Are there ground rules or is it just
kind of when something comes up, we deal with it

(01:43:33):
but otherwise live your life. Yeah, I think I think
a couple of things come to mind. I think after
all of that happened, we realized that we we knew
a couple of things. We're like, man, the love is
not being like, it's not being it's not flowing like,
it's not being distributed, is not creating balance, it's creating
off balance. That's all we knew. And later down the line,

(01:43:54):
but we sort of to discover as common senses. This
may have been for a lot of people. We just
we didn't have common sense because we were pretty much
treating the entire relationship as one whole relationship instead of
treating it as three separate relationships. Right, because I'll give
you an I have a relationship like, so I'm in
the trifeic the love relationship. That's one, right, there's a synchronicity,
there's a synergy when we come together. And now I'm

(01:44:17):
also I didn't know this part, we did this part.
I'm also in an individual relationship with Carly right, and
I'm also an individual relationship with Cassandra. So I so
I said, we started to realize down the line that
we weren't feeding those relationship, those individual relationships. We were
so focused on the one trifea relationship that that created
a lot of that created a lot of off balance,

(01:44:39):
you know, when we're really not balanced because we didn't
understand the dynamic of what it actually looks like when
it's flowing, you know. So once we kind of uncovered that,
I think that definitely. It's not like it made it easy,
but all of a sudden, it started to make everything
a little bit more rewarding because we started to see
some of the some of the goodness that was coming

(01:44:59):
out of a you know what I mean. So I
feel like that's kind of probably some of the things
that guy established after that kind of traumatics. Traumatics because
it was really sad the things that she wrote, and
I was like, oh damn, that's crazy. So yeah, I mean,
I would say you know that those are some of
some of the things I gotta sound. I think a
big moment for for us also was when we understood

(01:45:23):
the concept of couples privilege. I think that's like a
really big shift in the relationship that couple's privilege. Talk
to me, what does a couple's privilege? Yeah, a couple
of privilege. So that's a so um, it is pretty
much like, um, there would be certain you know, certain things, um,

(01:45:45):
that you know they would talk about or that they
would do that would affect me in some way. Yeah. Yeah.
The big one was when we would get into arguments right, right,
Like I knew how to handle certain things that she
didn't know, right because they were so earning each other,
And so that's couple's privilege, right, And it's really hard
for me to explain, like I would try and explain

(01:46:06):
how I'm feeling, and it's like and try and try
and get them to put themselves in my shoes so
that they maybe they can better understand like why I'm
upset or whatever. Um. And then we actually heard that
term and like educated our ourselves on that term, and
I think that it shed a lot of light on

(01:46:28):
like how certain things may make me feel and then
how people I work around those moments. Kind of what
was cool about that is that that term was brought
up by one of our fans, because this is what
I love about what you know our fan bases is like,
you know, we started our channel and we started our

(01:46:49):
social media accounts mainly because when we started, there was
no voice on what we were like looking for. We
were seeking advice, we were seeking understanding. No one was
talking about it, and so we just guided, let's just
honestly show our relationship fall royally and like get up
and just shake it off. And um, we were having

(01:47:09):
some type of conversations and I think someone said, that's
couple's privilege, and we're like, what is that? And then
we liked and it was the biggest like eye opener
into what she's going through. But being aware of that, right,
like privilege in any form allows you to be more
mindful and consider it for her. Yeah, that is fascinating

(01:47:29):
to me, and so it makes total sense. I'm curious
to know when it came to, you know, coming out
to your family and being like, hey, we're taking this seriously.
The three of us are a relationship. How did that go?
Was there hesitation? How was it received? Yeah? That was scary.
I was. I mean, we were very nervous telling our family.
You know. Um one, it was like, you know, we're married,

(01:47:50):
so we have to tell our family that we're doing
something that is so unconventional. And then too for us ladies,
it was also coming out it's like bisexual and then
and you know, I have a very very religious family,
so I was, yeah, I was terrified, you know, and
so all how did that go? Because we girl, you

(01:48:13):
girl your brain because I know right, yeah, we had
a Bible study. It was hard. It was really hard,
but you know it was good because we had to
what I what I had to make sure was like
I'm not going to just tell them just because this
is a flame, Like you know what, I mean, why

(01:48:35):
would I go through that if I wasn't actually serious
and you know, pursuing a long lasting relationship with the
two of them. Right, So once we understood like this
is what we are fighting for, this is what we
are going to pursue, then then I was very serious
about telling them because how am I going to hide them?
I mean, so we have to tell them. We just

(01:48:57):
ended up telling them, and you know it, you know shipped.
I mean, I don't know if I can curse. It
hit the fan, you know, Okay, yeah, it hit the fan. Um.
Some of our family members were like super supportive, some
just in in non agreement, but you know, loving. Um.
Some of them were like, you know, we're here for you,
were loving no matter what. And then some were just like,

(01:49:17):
I'm never talking to you again, you know. And then
and then some have come around. You know, that's great.
So they didn't they didn't accept it at first. Some
theme they learned to act. Both of both of our
moms actually didn't really accept it, which I mean Carli. Yeah,
So actually my mom, Um, she told me she had
a dream of like how she saw herself being the grandmother,

(01:49:39):
and when I told her the news, she felt like
I shouted that dream. And then she kind of just
told she said she while while I was in the car.
She was like, hey, I just I just need to
know something. Do you think God is okay with this?
And and you know it was. I was a little
thrown off because my mom was not really religious like that,
so I was just found it funny that she threw
that car and I just told I told her mom
and said, hey, mom, look listen I'm not sure. You know,

(01:49:59):
I hope that God is bigger than right and wrong.
I hope he's bigger than black and white, because here's
what I do. I know that there is love. There's
clearly love here, and that's that's what I'm gonna go by.
It's not like what we're doing is like I don't know,
we're not doing a cultiage stuff. We're not doing bad stuff,
you know, like we're just this. It kind of looks
like a regular relationship, all the good stuff, but it's
just another person in it. And my mom didn't really

(01:50:21):
understand it, but you know, just like Carly's mom, she
ended up coming around because she got to witness what
I meant. You know, it's kind of hard to try
to explain it because the first thing people go is
they go, like, so, how does the tax this thing work? Like,
like how how do you people try to try to
logistically understand love? And people be logistically understood, kindly be felt.

(01:50:42):
But my mom had to feel that and that converted her,
and then your mom felt and our love, the love
that we were having, you know, that also brought her back.
And it's funny with me because like you know, you've
watched this in history, Like it goes from you know,
two people being together, and then it's like you have
to be in the same religion to be with somebody,
ain't in the same race be with somebody. And then
when when that started breaking norms, it was a shock.

(01:51:04):
You know, how could someone be interracially in love? That
was shot, you know, And when it was like homosexuality,
how could you love the same sex? It was like
confusing to people because yeah, we did that to ourselves.
We just conditioned it. And there is you know, people
have been living like this for years. They've just been
under a rock Babo, no one talking about and hiding

(01:51:26):
because I don't blame them. Scary people are scary. We're mean,
you know, the world is brutal, you know. Yeah, well,
it's so good that you all are normalizing, right, this
relationship dynamic, these conversations, and you're so right. I love
um that analogy that you made about a thing is
just not done until it's done, and it is very

(01:51:46):
often done in the dark. But until we say it
shouldn't have to go down in the dark, that's where
it will be. So um. At this point, you will
have a mass, a huge following of supporters. You have
over three million followers on TikTok um. Love is love,
but that doesn't make it any less scary to open
up sometimes because of how mean and cruel the world

(01:52:07):
can be. So the fact that you all are willing
to share and celebrate your love publicly, I think is
really inspiring. Before I let you go, what final words
would you hope to share really quickly, just with anyone
who's trying to understand the polyamorous relationship dynamic or maybe
considering it for themselves, or maybe they're the ones who
are hating on it. What would you say to people?

(01:52:29):
What do you hope they get from from your relationship? Yeah,
I would say, oh okay. I would say no, no obligation,
just just opportunity to grow. And what I mean by
that is that's why I got into this relationship because
I didn't. Again, I think there's a lot of things
that kind of make it really attractive. However, I saw

(01:52:50):
beyond that, and there was this really cool quote that
I wanted to share. C. S. Lewis said, when you
get married, it's like having a mirror in front of you,
and that mirror, which is the other spouse your the
partners with you and shows you the blind spots that
you have. So right at the back, I said, damn,
that's like we had the two marriage, you know. To me,
that's that's kind of all I saw it. Man. I

(01:53:11):
was just like, I just saw it as an opportunity
and I didn't want to force that because even if
it didn't work out, I just kept reminding myself Until
this day, I still remind myself if it doesn't work out. UM,
not to be a pessimistic, but just in case. You know,
there's still so much richness. There's so there's there's so
much just came. It was like never so much growth.
It's not like my growth is gonna go away, like

(01:53:32):
when if you were so anyway, So that's what I
would say, you know about you guys, I would say,
what we what we are mad? Yeah, we don't do it? Well,
I guess we'll do it now. Okay, So this is
that we sign out all of our videos. Yeah, we'll
say TRAFFICCTA out in love with love from the Yeah.

(01:53:55):
Because anyone who's looking for this, you know, UM to
have it, you gotta be in a place of love.
You gotta operate with love. Operate from love. If you
are hating on it, and you don't have to get it,
just be a person of love, like you don't have
to treat us differently like and and if if they
are hating on it, we will never hate back, you
know what I mean. It's just in love with love

(01:54:18):
from love. That's our model. That's what we have our
fans saying we have merged on that, Like, that's just
what we preach. That's like our biggest thing. And and yeah,
that's who we are, Like that's how we live our lives,
you know, and to the best of our the best verbability,
of course. But yeah, just in everything that we do,
we we let love lead, you know. And so that's really, um,

(01:54:41):
that's what we want to spread out to people. Like
that's the message. I love it. I love it. And
congratulations because y'all proposed to Carly, We've got to thank you, yes,
of course. So do we have wedding plans yet? What
does that look like? Is it a spiritual union? Only

(01:55:02):
can you legally win to? Like what's the plan for
the future. So I have heard I have heard that
there are some states where you can legally, you know,
be married to more than one person. So we're gonna
look into that. But you know, I've I've always said
that for me, it's more so the spiritual marriage. Like
I don't really care to be, you know, married on

(01:55:24):
paper so much, but I mean, if it's possible, I'll
look into it. We're gonna have Yeah, we have to
start planning soon. But next year the dresses, next one, well,
let's not tell me. Well, Cassandra, Carly, Paolo, thank you

(01:55:49):
oh so much for sharing um your story. Your platform
will be sure to you let everybody know where to
follow you. But also if you want to just throw
it out there really quickly, people want to follow your journey,
your story. Where can I keep up with you? Yeah?
You guys, actually it's you guys can all go to
the Trifecta love dot com and you guys can find
all our social media there, uh and just all the

(01:56:10):
stuff that we do as well YouTube, just some really
cool stuff. So the trifector Love dot com him happy. Yes.
Thank you again to Cassandra, Carly and Paulo for sharing
their life with us, just a little bit of their
story and their love with us. I hope you enjoyed
this episode as much as we enjoyed putting it together.
This was who This is a big one, y'all. Right,

(01:56:31):
don't forget you can share your stories if you want
to submit your real woman, real story, or if you
want to get like generally okay advice from me yours
truly by sending in your submissions. You can do that.
Just hit me up hello at Hot Happy Mess dot com.
And if you liked this episode, if you're not subscribed yet, subscribe, subscribe.

(01:56:52):
I'm sorry, I'm sorry, it's all the coffee. Subscribe now leaves.
And if you don't mind, if you're really a real one,
would you leave a quick review, a little five star review,
just a sentence maybe too. It really helps us out.
It moves the needle, apparently that's what the big wigs
in the suits tell us. And we need to keep

(01:57:15):
the listens and the subscriptions and everything's going up as
they are, which is so exciting. So let's keep building
and growing and reviewing, shall we? Uh? Hit us with
a review and make sure you follow me in the
meantime at Zurie Hall the U R I H A
L L and at Hot Happy Mess on Instagram. And
I'll talk to you next Monday. Bye bye bye bye

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