August 13, 2021 • 14 mins
Do you ever feel like there’s an internal conversation playing on an endless loop in your mind? Do you want to turn it off? Dr. Saltz has great advice about how to retrain your brain to banish the mental chatter.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:05):
Bees are challenging times, but you don't have to navigate
them alone. Welcome to How Can I Help? I'm Dr
Gail Saltz. I'm a clinical Associate Professor of Psychiatry at
the New York Presbyterian Hospital, a psychoanalyst, and best selling author,
and I'm here every week to answer your most pressing questions,
(00:27):
hopefully with understanding, insight, and advice. Everyone has thoughts that
they tend to have go around in their mind, sort
of a problem that they slowly think on and turn
around and examine. This pattern of repetitively going over the
(00:47):
same thought is called rumination. It comes from the rumination
that cows do while chewing their cut to swallow and
then regurgitate, chew on and swallow again. That's really what
happens in your mind when you're ruminating. Usually, rumination is
(01:09):
a kind of internal discussion where you consider predicting, preparing
more fully, understanding, or altering something a problem, and in
reality the problem may be solvable or it may not.
It is often tripped off by uncertainty and doubt. One
(01:34):
might ruminate over the past, which of course you cannot change,
or the future, which of course you cannot truly predict
which is why I'm pointing out that despite your mind
going around and around trying to solve a problem, most
often the problem cannot be solved. From an evolutionary perspective,
(02:00):
rumination makes a lot of sense. The person who really
contemplated future dangers and chose to behave accordingly, like staying
in a cave because there might be a bear. That
person survived, and those who didn't do that, well, they
got munched. But in this day and age, rumination doesn't
(02:25):
really serve that live or die purpose. In fact, this
thought pattern can simply cause a lot of misery for
people who tend to ruminate a lot. Rumination thoughts can
come in many different flavors. They can be catastrophic thoughts
like what if I get hurt or sick? Or doubt
(02:48):
thoughts like what if he doesn't like me? Or existential
thoughts such as am I wasting my life? Some people
ruminate by compare airing themselves, such as did I do
a better job than her? Or accuse themselves like I'm
(03:08):
not being a good enough mother. But whatever category of
thought you might ruminate in, everyone tends to try to
counter the upsetting thought with a comforting thought to make
themselves feel better. The problem is by thinking something more comforting,
(03:29):
like no, I actually did this great mothering thing the
other day, so I'm probably a good mother. You feel relieved,
and this relief is exactly what is positive reinforcement to
the original upsetting rumination thought, and that reinforcement makes your
(03:50):
brain produce more ruminations. This is how a person gets
into a cycle of rumination, comfort, more rumination, more comfort.
The only way to decrease rumination thoughts is to actually
stop the positive reinforcement of comforting thoughts, and thereby, over time,
(04:14):
with no reinforcement, the ruminating thoughts dissipate and eventually cease.
This is called extinction. It's difficult because it means tolerating
the upsetting thought without reassuring, explaining, or mitigating the thought.
(04:38):
One has to allow the thought to be there, but
not react to it and not wrestle with it. It
seems very counterintuitive, but once you realize that the other
thoughts you're having in reaction to the upsetting thought, thoughts
that temporarily make you feel better, actually in the long run,
(05:04):
are making you feel worse, it becomes easier to work
on just letting distressing ruminations. Be with this information at hand,
Let's get to our listener question today and see how
can I help? How can I help with Dr Gale
(05:25):
Salts will be back after this short break, Dear Doctor Salts.
I feel so upset about climate change. Every time I
read or watch the news and I see anything that
(05:48):
can be ascribed to climate change, forest fires, storms, jeep waves.
I find myself having an entire day or evening or
even a week of thinking about climate change and the
dire circumstances, and then having a lot of thoughts like
(06:10):
what's the point of anything in life? I mean, if
we can't stop climate change and we're all going to
be doomed in the future, it makes it hard for
me to be happy and be involved in my life
because I'm so disturbed by these thoughts. Is this normal?
What is going on with me? And what can I do?
(06:34):
Certainly many people are distressed about climate change. It is
a problem, It is a real concern. Being concerned about
climate change is normal. You, however, are describing a situation
where your thoughts are so frequent and pervasive and disturbing
(06:56):
that you are unable to be happy at all. That
they push you to feel that there is no point
in the future, which is an existential crisis of sorts,
because you feel doomed or life seems pointless with this
problem looming. The degree to which this flood of thought
(07:16):
is easily triggered by any content, the way that you
describe it, sticking for you, looping around, and staying pervasively
has the qualities that speak to rumination. You aren't really
doing any problem solving. You're not actually coming up with
(07:38):
some way you plan to deal with your concern, like
a plan to recycle or volunteering to work on the issue,
but rather you are thinking a lot around and around.
This is also not an illness, but it is a
thought pattern that is making you miserable, and over time,
(08:02):
a miserable thought pattern can take a toll, causing you
later to feel depressed or anxious. The other marker that
this is rumination is that these thoughts do have an
anxiety component to them. You feel fearful of this danger,
(08:23):
and the anxiety often drives the thinker to try to
comfort themselves with other thoughts. Do you find once triggered,
you are also having thoughts like, well, someone will come
up with solutions, because people are working on it, or
maybe it's not as bad as they say, or I
(08:46):
won't be around anymore when things get really bad. These
are comforting thoughts that can make you feel relief in
the moment when you're struggling with the upsetting thoughts. This
often happens so quickly that frequently you don't even realize
you have the comforting thought in reaction to the disturbing one.
(09:10):
By trying to slow your thinking down and spotting these
comfort thoughts, which is really any thought that in the
least reassures you or makes you feel less anxious, and
then trying to steer clear of that, you can begin
to decrease your negative thoughts over time. So step one
(09:36):
is to accept feeling uncomfortable rather than fighting it. When
you have the upset thought about climate change, say to yourself,
it is just a thought, and it is okay that
I feel upset. We're bad right now. Using self talk
(09:56):
raises in your heads such as let it be so
what or okay, there's the thought next can help you
to stay with the thought while not further examining it
nor reassuring yourself. Another helpful technique is to try thinking
(10:20):
your worst thought you can block having comforting thoughts by
telling yourself you will think you're specifically worst thought right now,
something even worse than the current bad thought you had,
such as probably climate change will end a lot of
(10:40):
life by or some such overly disastrous thought, and then
follow that with it is understandable to feel worse now
because I'm thinking my worst thought, and that is good
because in the long term it will help me. While
you do this, it's helpful to label your thoughts as
(11:03):
just thoughts. It doesn't matter if they are true or false.
They are just thoughts. Thoughts are not actions, they're not behaviors,
and they're not predictors of the future. By labeling thoughts
as only thoughts, it helps to diffuse their impact on you.
(11:28):
In the very short run, you will not feel better
because you will have the thoughts and you will not
be comforting yourself. But the comforting is what is making
you have many more upsetting thoughts over time. By taking
this approach and stopping the reinforcement, the negative thoughts will dissipate.
(11:53):
They will slowly lessen because nothing is reinforcing them, and
then they will be less sticky in your mind over time.
This technique really helps. Thoughts about climate change will not
entirely disappear, but they will be much less frequent, less intense,
(12:16):
and you will feel less engaged with them. In other words,
they are more likely to float in and float back out,
which is what many people have about whatever thought might
be upsetting to them. I also might suggest that you
cut back on the reading of headlines for a while.
(12:39):
I'm not suggesting being totally uninformed, but a check in
with the news once a day in the morning is sufficient,
and decreasing your triggering will help you to work on
getting a better handle on it by using these techniques.
If you're not constantly triggered, it's just easier to do.
(13:03):
Social media leads you the information you are looking for,
so given you're clearly looking for climate change, you're likely
getting above the average amounts of news on this topic,
and this is providing a frequent trigger. I hope that
was helpful. This listener was bothered by rumination in the
(13:27):
area of climate change, but rumination actually doesn't care about
the topic or the content. In fact, when it comes
to rumination, content is irrelevant. Once this listener has worked
to decrease their rumination about climate change, it is very
(13:47):
possible that they will start ruminating about a different subject matter,
because ruminators can easily move from one topic to another.
But the key is to spot developing rumination early and
employed this same method of extinction, because the earlier you
work to extinguish rumination, the easier it is to do this.
(14:12):
And for all of you listening, you really can insert
any content of thought into this question and use the
same technique. Rumination is about the process of thinking and thoughts.
What content thoughts are not important? Do you have a
(14:33):
problem I can help with? If so, email me at
how can I help? At Seneca Women dot com. All
centers remain anonymous and listen every Friday too. How can
I help with me? Dr Gale's Salts
Bees are challenging times, but you don't have to navigate
them alone. Welcome to How Can I Help? I'm Dr
Gail Saltz. I'm a clinical Associate Professor of Psychiatry at
the New York Presbyterian Hospital, a psychoanalyst, and best selling author,
and I'm here every week to answer your most pressing questions,
(00:27):
hopefully with understanding, insight, and advice. Everyone has thoughts that
they tend to have go around in their mind, sort
of a problem that they slowly think on and turn
around and examine. This pattern of repetitively going over the
(00:47):
same thought is called rumination. It comes from the rumination
that cows do while chewing their cut to swallow and
then regurgitate, chew on and swallow again. That's really what
happens in your mind when you're ruminating. Usually, rumination is
(01:09):
a kind of internal discussion where you consider predicting, preparing
more fully, understanding, or altering something a problem, and in
reality the problem may be solvable or it may not.
It is often tripped off by uncertainty and doubt. One
(01:34):
might ruminate over the past, which of course you cannot change,
or the future, which of course you cannot truly predict
which is why I'm pointing out that despite your mind
going around and around trying to solve a problem, most
often the problem cannot be solved. From an evolutionary perspective,
(02:00):
rumination makes a lot of sense. The person who really
contemplated future dangers and chose to behave accordingly, like staying
in a cave because there might be a bear. That
person survived, and those who didn't do that, well, they
got munched. But in this day and age, rumination doesn't
(02:25):
really serve that live or die purpose. In fact, this
thought pattern can simply cause a lot of misery for
people who tend to ruminate a lot. Rumination thoughts can
come in many different flavors. They can be catastrophic thoughts
like what if I get hurt or sick? Or doubt
(02:48):
thoughts like what if he doesn't like me? Or existential
thoughts such as am I wasting my life? Some people
ruminate by compare airing themselves, such as did I do
a better job than her? Or accuse themselves like I'm
(03:08):
not being a good enough mother. But whatever category of
thought you might ruminate in, everyone tends to try to
counter the upsetting thought with a comforting thought to make
themselves feel better. The problem is by thinking something more comforting,
(03:29):
like no, I actually did this great mothering thing the
other day, so I'm probably a good mother. You feel relieved,
and this relief is exactly what is positive reinforcement to
the original upsetting rumination thought, and that reinforcement makes your
(03:50):
brain produce more ruminations. This is how a person gets
into a cycle of rumination, comfort, more rumination, more comfort.
The only way to decrease rumination thoughts is to actually
stop the positive reinforcement of comforting thoughts, and thereby, over time,
(04:14):
with no reinforcement, the ruminating thoughts dissipate and eventually cease.
This is called extinction. It's difficult because it means tolerating
the upsetting thought without reassuring, explaining, or mitigating the thought.
(04:38):
One has to allow the thought to be there, but
not react to it and not wrestle with it. It
seems very counterintuitive, but once you realize that the other
thoughts you're having in reaction to the upsetting thought, thoughts
that temporarily make you feel better, actually in the long run,
(05:04):
are making you feel worse, it becomes easier to work
on just letting distressing ruminations. Be with this information at hand,
Let's get to our listener question today and see how
can I help? How can I help with Dr Gale
(05:25):
Salts will be back after this short break, Dear Doctor Salts.
I feel so upset about climate change. Every time I
read or watch the news and I see anything that
(05:48):
can be ascribed to climate change, forest fires, storms, jeep waves.
I find myself having an entire day or evening or
even a week of thinking about climate change and the
dire circumstances, and then having a lot of thoughts like
(06:10):
what's the point of anything in life? I mean, if
we can't stop climate change and we're all going to
be doomed in the future, it makes it hard for
me to be happy and be involved in my life
because I'm so disturbed by these thoughts. Is this normal?
What is going on with me? And what can I do?
(06:34):
Certainly many people are distressed about climate change. It is
a problem, It is a real concern. Being concerned about
climate change is normal. You, however, are describing a situation
where your thoughts are so frequent and pervasive and disturbing
(06:56):
that you are unable to be happy at all. That
they push you to feel that there is no point
in the future, which is an existential crisis of sorts,
because you feel doomed or life seems pointless with this
problem looming. The degree to which this flood of thought
(07:16):
is easily triggered by any content, the way that you
describe it, sticking for you, looping around, and staying pervasively
has the qualities that speak to rumination. You aren't really
doing any problem solving. You're not actually coming up with
(07:38):
some way you plan to deal with your concern, like
a plan to recycle or volunteering to work on the issue,
but rather you are thinking a lot around and around.
This is also not an illness, but it is a
thought pattern that is making you miserable, and over time,
(08:02):
a miserable thought pattern can take a toll, causing you
later to feel depressed or anxious. The other marker that
this is rumination is that these thoughts do have an
anxiety component to them. You feel fearful of this danger,
(08:23):
and the anxiety often drives the thinker to try to
comfort themselves with other thoughts. Do you find once triggered,
you are also having thoughts like, well, someone will come
up with solutions, because people are working on it, or
maybe it's not as bad as they say, or I
(08:46):
won't be around anymore when things get really bad. These
are comforting thoughts that can make you feel relief in
the moment when you're struggling with the upsetting thoughts. This
often happens so quickly that frequently you don't even realize
you have the comforting thought in reaction to the disturbing one.
(09:10):
By trying to slow your thinking down and spotting these
comfort thoughts, which is really any thought that in the
least reassures you or makes you feel less anxious, and
then trying to steer clear of that, you can begin
to decrease your negative thoughts over time. So step one
(09:36):
is to accept feeling uncomfortable rather than fighting it. When
you have the upset thought about climate change, say to yourself,
it is just a thought, and it is okay that
I feel upset. We're bad right now. Using self talk
(09:56):
raises in your heads such as let it be so
what or okay, there's the thought next can help you
to stay with the thought while not further examining it
nor reassuring yourself. Another helpful technique is to try thinking
(10:20):
your worst thought you can block having comforting thoughts by
telling yourself you will think you're specifically worst thought right now,
something even worse than the current bad thought you had,
such as probably climate change will end a lot of
(10:40):
life by or some such overly disastrous thought, and then
follow that with it is understandable to feel worse now
because I'm thinking my worst thought, and that is good
because in the long term it will help me. While
you do this, it's helpful to label your thoughts as
(11:03):
just thoughts. It doesn't matter if they are true or false.
They are just thoughts. Thoughts are not actions, they're not behaviors,
and they're not predictors of the future. By labeling thoughts
as only thoughts, it helps to diffuse their impact on you.
(11:28):
In the very short run, you will not feel better
because you will have the thoughts and you will not
be comforting yourself. But the comforting is what is making
you have many more upsetting thoughts over time. By taking
this approach and stopping the reinforcement, the negative thoughts will dissipate.
(11:53):
They will slowly lessen because nothing is reinforcing them, and
then they will be less sticky in your mind over time.
This technique really helps. Thoughts about climate change will not
entirely disappear, but they will be much less frequent, less intense,
(12:16):
and you will feel less engaged with them. In other words,
they are more likely to float in and float back out,
which is what many people have about whatever thought might
be upsetting to them. I also might suggest that you
cut back on the reading of headlines for a while.
(12:39):
I'm not suggesting being totally uninformed, but a check in
with the news once a day in the morning is sufficient,
and decreasing your triggering will help you to work on
getting a better handle on it by using these techniques.
If you're not constantly triggered, it's just easier to do.
(13:03):
Social media leads you the information you are looking for,
so given you're clearly looking for climate change, you're likely
getting above the average amounts of news on this topic,
and this is providing a frequent trigger. I hope that
was helpful. This listener was bothered by rumination in the
(13:27):
area of climate change, but rumination actually doesn't care about
the topic or the content. In fact, when it comes
to rumination, content is irrelevant. Once this listener has worked
to decrease their rumination about climate change, it is very
(13:47):
possible that they will start ruminating about a different subject matter,
because ruminators can easily move from one topic to another.
But the key is to spot developing rumination early and
employed this same method of extinction, because the earlier you
work to extinguish rumination, the easier it is to do this.
(14:12):
And for all of you listening, you really can insert
any content of thought into this question and use the
same technique. Rumination is about the process of thinking and thoughts.
What content thoughts are not important? Do you have a
(14:33):
problem I can help with? If so, email me at
how can I help? At Seneca Women dot com. All
centers remain anonymous and listen every Friday too. How can
I help with me? Dr Gale's Salts
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