January 5, 2026 • 18 mins
Ousted President Nicolás Maduro and his wife Cilia Flores made their first court appearance in Manhattan this morning to face narco-terrorism, drug and weapons charges. They two pleaded not guilty, but they managed to get in a few more words than that. While this fascinating scene was unfolding inside the courtroom, two separate factions of demonstrators surrounded the courthouse, some thanking President Trump and some wanting Maduro set free.
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:11):
Hey there, folks.
Speaker 2 (00:11):
It is Monday, January fifth, and that was a hell
of a first court appearance from the now austitt former
president of Venezuela, Nicholas Maduro and his wife. And with that,
welcome to this episode of Amy and TJ. This is
just wrapping up as we are coming on here as
of this recording. But as of this recording rose, we
(00:33):
should mention that Maduro is still in route back to jail.
So this is just happening. I don't know what we
were expecting, but I wasn't expecting what we got.
Speaker 1 (00:44):
A few fireworks, it was.
Speaker 3 (00:46):
It was interesting, interesting outside of the court. What was
going on.
Speaker 4 (00:49):
He was interesting what was happening inside of the court,
and just how quickly it's all taken place from the
abduction this weekend that we were all shocked by seeing
him and his wife standing there before a federal judge
in Lower Manhattan.
Speaker 3 (01:07):
It's surreal.
Speaker 1 (01:08):
Remind I keep messing this up. I asked you earlier.
Speaker 2 (01:10):
It was Friday night into Saturday thing. He was taking
a Saturday and Friday night. Friday night into Saturday, so
early Saturday morning he went to bed Friday night in Caraka,
says the President of Venezuela. He is in our neighborhood
today in prison garb making court appearances in the same
damn courthouse that Didty's trial took place a matter of
(01:33):
months ago. This is why it was.
Speaker 4 (01:34):
Weird to be watching the same entrance that we were
waiting to see Diddy and Ditty's family walking out of
We've walked by that court a million times when that
trial was going on, just to see it all now
take place again, but in very different circumstances with much
larger implications.
Speaker 1 (01:53):
Let's get you caught up here, folks.
Speaker 2 (01:54):
We were all talking about this earlier, but yes, it's
been an extraordinary certainly weekend a few days, but also
a few hours. Nicholas Maduro and his wife Cecilia were
taken from the MDC, the Metropolitan Detention Center in Brooklyn,
the federal prison and brought over to the Federal Courthouse
and Lower Manhattan.
Speaker 1 (02:11):
This was all this morning.
Speaker 2 (02:13):
The court appearance was at noon Eastern time, but they
started their journey, and as New Yorkers we kind of
understand this. We were looking, why are they leaving so
early from Brooklyn at seven o'clock in the morning for
a noon appearance, and well, if you live in New York,
maybe it makes sense.
Speaker 4 (02:26):
Yeah, it's probably what is it a mile at most
probably between those two sites. But yes, there was a
helicopter and then there was an armored vehicle, all to
avoid perhaps yes, some of the traffic issues allah the
Brooklyn Bridge, but also safety concerns. There were a lot
of people who were waiting and had been lining up
outside of the courthouse just to be a part of this.
(02:48):
A lot of folks who are from Venezuela, who traveled
actually from parts of the US to be just near
where this was all taking place. Some for some against
United States dead, but a lot of passionate folks outside
that courthouse waiting to see what happened inside.
Speaker 2 (03:06):
Yeah, and this was it did happen inside that same courthouse.
They just give you a sense of you're not living
in this area. This we're at the very tip of Manhattan,
Lower Manhattan, the financial district. But you have, yes, a
lot of yes, you got Wall Street and you got
all those big companies and money down here, but you
have the court system down here. And there was just
a little area down here again tip of Manhattan, where
(03:29):
this cluster of government buildings are. That is where he
made his first court appearance with his wife. We did
hear ropes officially what the charges are, and he's facing
four pretty serious charges here.
Speaker 4 (03:40):
Yes, the first and perhaps most serious the narco terrorism
conspiracy charge. Then there's a cocaine importation conspiracy charge, possession
of machine guns and destructive devices, and then conspiracy to
possess machine guns and destructive devices. So those are the
four charges that Maduro and his wife Celia are facing.
Speaker 2 (04:03):
And by all accounts, trial of trial not there yet.
Excuse me, sorry, misspoke. By all accounts, court did start,
this hearing did start right on time. He walks in
with his wife again, both wearing prison garb if you will,
tan pants, orange shoes he was in had a blue
some kind of shirt over another tan shirt, but he
(04:24):
was in prison garb. His wife was as well. They
were seated at the same table, a couple of seats
down from each other. And look, before they even got
into the court room. You just mentioned robe. The scene
outside and it was almost reminiscent in some degree of
what we saw during Diddy. People were out there and
it was an atmosphere almost carnival like at times at
least for that one today, maybe a different tone, but
(04:45):
still people were being loud and being hurt.
Speaker 4 (04:47):
Yes, and there were two defiant sides. There was the
one side that had signs that read things like thank
you President Donald Trump, Venezuela Freedom, people singing the Venezuelan
national anthem, cheering that Madua and his wife finally were apprehended.
Then there was another large crowd that felt quite the opposite,
(05:08):
supporting Maduro, saying free President Maduro, Free President Maduro and
his wife Celia so and the first ladies. So these
two factions, more than one hundred folks gathered around and
peacefully but definitely letting their feelings be known.
Speaker 2 (05:25):
And someone let their feelings be known in the courtroom
as well. There was a bit of a clash between
Maduro and I don't want to call it a protest
or at least an observer in the courtroom. We will
get into that. It was pretty much the last thing
that happened at the end of the hearing today. But
Robes he and his wife both did enter not guilty, please,
But it wasn't that simple.
Speaker 3 (05:45):
Yeah, it's funny.
Speaker 4 (05:47):
They obviously they don't know how and wouldn't have had
the experience of knowing how the court system works here
in this country, so it was interesting. You know, they're
learning as they go. They have two very high powered
lawyers by their sides, which we'll get into in a second.
But the judge starts off just asking them the simple
question to identify yourself. Normally a defendant would just give
(06:10):
their name. No, that's not what happened in this case.
Maduro said, I am the president of Venezuela. I was
captured at my home in Caracas, Venezuela. He said this
all in Spanish, and the first Lady also made a
point to say, I am the first Lady of the
Republic of Venezuela. But then when they were asked to
give their please, they didn't just go with the not guilty.
Speaker 3 (06:32):
They added a few words.
Speaker 2 (06:33):
You know, and I saw this headline initially, but he said,
I am not guilty. I am a decent man. I
am still the president of my country. Now for us,
in this country, at least Robes, we have seen defendants
get immediately lashed by a judge. No, all I need
to hear is guilty or not guilty. You don't need
(06:54):
to explain anything. I don't this is going to be
interesting because of Spanish judge. It's not, as far as
I know, a native is not a Spanish speaker. The
Maduros have time to say a lot before the judge
ever gets to translate it in his ear. This is
(07:14):
going to be a thing. He had time now, and
he might and all these hearings they might have time
to make statements unless the judge clamps down on this.
But this is why we got so many words, because
the judge couldn't cut.
Speaker 4 (07:25):
Off right because by the time, yeah, it takes a
little bit of a delay for the judge to hear
what they just said in Spanish for him to say, wait,
you can't say that. Otherwise he would have probably interrupted
them immediately. Because Celia Flores had the opportunity to say
not guilty, I'm completely innocent, so that usually is not
allowed as well. So they were both able at least
(07:45):
given the translation time that it took to add a
few extra things beyond not guilty.
Speaker 2 (07:51):
And they're told usually don't say anything, shut up, don't
say anything. But a lot of observers are now looking
and say, this is going to be the key issue.
Speaker 1 (08:00):
Forget what the charges are.
Speaker 2 (08:02):
The key issue is going to be whether or not
they should be here in the first place, and they
were legally plucked, so we're maybe possibly seeing them already
with their wheels turned into why they make some of
these statements. They were informed, They said they didn't know
about a lot of their rights, Like you just said, Robes,
they don't know the American court system. But they did
get informed they do have the right to a consular visit,
(08:24):
and they said they would like to do that. Fine,
no bail at this time because they're not seeking it yet.
So apparently all this is just happening too fast. Like
even the lawyer was like, hey, we got our ducks
in a row, and the judge said, yeah, you can
do that application later, but right now.
Speaker 3 (08:39):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (08:40):
I thought that was interesting that they didn't even have
time to even sit down and have a conversation or
at least a strategy and even asking for bail. Highly
unlikely that that would have been granted. So maybe they
just recognized that off the bat. But it's interesting you
do that, Robes, how do you give him bail?
Speaker 1 (08:58):
Where's he gonna go? He's not legally in this country.
Speaker 4 (09:02):
Maybe the only thing I get thinking of is if
he had to stay at Is there a Venezuelan embassy
here in New York or in DC?
Speaker 3 (09:09):
Obviously there would be. I think, do we have that
kind of rapport with that country?
Speaker 4 (09:13):
I don't even know what are Yeah, I wouldn't think
that we have envoys or embassies in each other's countries,
because that's how adversarial we are. I thought it was
interesting too, because the judge let Maduro and his wife
know that they are allowed if they can't afford, they
do have access to an attorney paid for by the
American people. They chose to retain their very high powered,
(09:36):
privately secured attorneys that they were able to. I was
just fascinate if they were able to secure attorneys.
Speaker 3 (09:44):
I wonder what that.
Speaker 4 (09:44):
Process is like when you are the president, or at
least the ousted president of Venezuela, how do you then
go about trying to find an American attorney.
Speaker 3 (09:54):
I bet they had him in place, maybe they were anticipating.
Speaker 2 (09:57):
Maybe for years even maybe yes, in touch with and
had all kinds of issues and this. You remember that
with Diddy, he'd been working with a lawyer for a year,
like Agnafillo, Oh who's this guy? He's got to know
they've been working together even before the arrest, So I
would guess that's the case. Mark Donnelly and Barry Pollack.
I didn't know the two names. Mark Donnelly is out
of Texas, Barry Pollack out of d C. He's the
(10:18):
one that's going to represent the first lady. But Mark Donnelly,
when I saw he represented Julian Massage.
Speaker 4 (10:25):
I thought it was Barry Pollock who represented Julius.
Speaker 2 (10:27):
Arry pollit to DC guy. I got him in or
out of order of my two people. Yes, Pollock was
the DC guy who's representing President correct. Donale is doing
the other and Pollock. When you hear that he represented
Julian Massage, you know how complicated an international legal.
Speaker 1 (10:42):
Case that was.
Speaker 3 (10:43):
I still don't even really know what happened there.
Speaker 1 (10:45):
Can't keep it. I know Julian Lossange ain't in.
Speaker 3 (10:47):
Jail exactly he did.
Speaker 4 (10:49):
He is the man who at some point was responsible
for having him get his freedom back. And so yes,
I can understand perhaps why Nicholas Maduro would want someone
like that who has that sort of experience from an
international complex case.
Speaker 3 (11:05):
This is the guy who has walked that walk before.
Speaker 4 (11:07):
So that's a very solid choice for Maduro to have
Barry Pollock mart Donnelly. Don't know a lot about him,
just that he's a lawyer from Houston, from the Texas area.
Speaker 3 (11:16):
But yes, don't know much more. But I'm sure we'll
find out.
Speaker 4 (11:19):
I'm sure there's good reason why Celia Flores chose him
as her attorney.
Speaker 2 (11:24):
All right, Well, folks, stay here when we come back.
A move was made elsewhere in Switzerland, of all places,
they could have an impact on Madero and his future. Also,
we got worried about when the next court date will be.
Stay here, all right, folks, We continue here on Amy
(11:51):
and TJ. Just a short time ago. Former President. I
haven't even gotten this right or not. Is he the
former president? Is he the ousted president? Does he have
any presidential rights of any kind?
Speaker 1 (12:02):
At this point?
Speaker 4 (12:02):
Who gets to say? I mean, he says in court
that he is still the president. I think maybe the
best way to put it that I've seen written is
ousted president because he has been ousted, and we know
that the vice president is now called the acting president.
So I don't know that there is a correct term,
and it might depend on who you ask.
Speaker 1 (12:22):
That's the thing.
Speaker 2 (12:23):
What if I ask the people of Venezuela right, what
are their laws? What is their sovereignty. This is a
fascinating legal case, and this is what it's going to
boil down too. Before forget the charges. His lawyers are
only focused on whether or not he was legally taken,
if he should even be here.
Speaker 4 (12:41):
Well, yeah, that's the first hurdle, because if they can
prove that he shouldn't legally be detained by the United States,
that we have no right as a country to hold him,
then the charges are moot.
Speaker 3 (12:51):
Who cares?
Speaker 2 (12:52):
But then the flip side of that is that our
justice system is only looking at the criminal charges like that, say,
my problem to decide whether or not he's legally here
and all this. You got somebody before me charge with
the crime. I am dealing with the criminal aspect.
Speaker 1 (13:07):
What do you do? Who decides?
Speaker 4 (13:08):
Because normally, internationally, if you're getting a fugitive to face
charges here in the United States, it's only through an
extradition policy that that country has with our country. He's
an agreement made, and there's an agreement and that's how
we proceed.
Speaker 3 (13:22):
Clearly that's not the case in this situation.
Speaker 4 (13:24):
So I don't know and Frankly, probably some of the
greatest legal minds would argue whether or not we have
a right to do this or not? What we have
a right, whether or not we can prosecute him here
in this country.
Speaker 2 (13:36):
That's the argument, and everybody, everybody wants to go with
the Noriego not a Panama example, the same legal question
came up and the court said, that's not my problem.
How he got here. He's here, He's a criminal. These
are the charges. Are they going to look at Madero
the same?
Speaker 1 (13:54):
I am.
Speaker 2 (13:55):
This is going to be fascinating. But March seventeenth is
his next scheduled court day. Now another one could come.
If they do ask for bail, if they want to
get him out, I guess something could change. So are
we're talking two months away? He's gonna sit in Brooklyn.
Speaker 3 (14:08):
That's what I was just thinking.
Speaker 4 (14:09):
I'm imagining Nicholas Maduro and his wife, Celia Flores, who
are very proud people. You could tell just from the
few moments we got to hear from them in court,
who are used to a certain way of living, a
certain way of being. He even asked the judge for
respect at one point about being able to keep his
notes and the judge seemed a little taken aback by
his tone even that.
Speaker 3 (14:30):
But he has obviously.
Speaker 4 (14:32):
A presidential way about him in certain level of expectations.
Can you imagine the two of them, with the way
they have lived their lives and how they have been
treated and how they are regarded, sitting in that notorious, yeah,
notoriously difficult, disgusting, dangerous prison in Brooklyn.
Speaker 3 (14:52):
That seems insane.
Speaker 2 (14:54):
I don't know they, I mean we high profile is
one thing, MANZIONI was over there, Maxwell was over there,
al Choppol was over there like you, notorious as hell.
But still this is a different dude. This is the
president of the sitting president. Now, other places the United
States don't recognize him as the legitimate leader. Does that
(15:18):
matter if we decide no, I'm not gonna accept you
as the president.
Speaker 1 (15:23):
I am.
Speaker 2 (15:23):
I'm asking you so many legal questions we don't have
the answer to right now. The other thing in court
is he was leaving this confrontation, and again it was
there was a lot of Spanish, and I'm seeing different
places and different interpretations, But there was a guy apparently
in the back of the courtroom who stood up at
one time at the end as Maduro was leaving and
yelled at him, you're going to pay for this, and
Madero responded to him with something.
Speaker 3 (15:46):
In Espanol, in Spanish, in.
Speaker 2 (15:48):
Espaniel, and it's being interpreted saying in the name of God,
I will be free was the response.
Speaker 1 (15:55):
At least that's one interpretation of how I went down. Wow.
Speaker 4 (15:58):
But will he have the money to be able to
pay these high powered lawyers, because we got word today
as well that the Swiss government has frozen any assets
that Nicholas Maduro and any of the people close to
him held in Switzerland and those famous offshore accounts. A
total of thirty seven people have now had their assets
(16:21):
frozen by the Swiss government. That's very significant in terms
of their ability to do anything truly. Obviously, they need
to fund their defense, they need to fund perhaps just
planning how they're getting out and what will happen next.
So if you don't have money, if you don't have
access to your funds, that is severely limiting, you know what.
Speaker 2 (16:44):
But anything we learned about dictators, they usually keep a
stash somewhere, don't they. You've seing this note here about
him saying Happy New Year to the reporters of the
courtroom in the world. By all accounts, he sounds crazy,
acted residential like, but all he carried himself in such
even respectful of the proceedings. To a certain degree, he
(17:06):
was almost like a politician.
Speaker 4 (17:07):
Well, yes, he knows obviously at this point, I would
think he is aware of how polarizing President Trump is,
and perhaps he knows. Hey, you know, he most likely,
being the politician that he is, knows how to turn
on the charm when he needs to. He knows how
to lead and perhaps even how to manipulate, or at
(17:29):
least how to carry himself. And he probably doesn't know
how to be anything other than presidential and a grand
leader who should be maybe feared and respected. That's I'm
sure his mode of operation. So why change now? Even
if he's in prison clothing and handcuffed and shackled, he's
still acting like the president of Venezuela.
Speaker 2 (17:51):
And the president of Venezuela is in a motor key
going from Manhattan to Brooklyn to the same prison that
held shall On Diddy Combs only a few short months ago.
This has been an extraordinary morning here in New York,
and it is going to be extraordinary a few weeks,
a few months, and who knows this could be years
(18:12):
in the making to watch, but the former president of
Venezuela made his first quarter appearance today, pled not guilty
to a number of charges related to his alleged narco
terrorism regime. And with that, folks, we always appreciate you
spending some time with us. Now, I'm TJ. Holmes On
behalf of my dear Amy Roboch.
Speaker 1 (18:28):
We'll talk to you also
Hey there, folks.
Speaker 2 (00:11):
It is Monday, January fifth, and that was a hell
of a first court appearance from the now austitt former
president of Venezuela, Nicholas Maduro and his wife. And with that,
welcome to this episode of Amy and TJ. This is
just wrapping up as we are coming on here as
of this recording. But as of this recording rose, we
(00:33):
should mention that Maduro is still in route back to jail.
So this is just happening. I don't know what we
were expecting, but I wasn't expecting what we got.
Speaker 1 (00:44):
A few fireworks, it was.
Speaker 3 (00:46):
It was interesting, interesting outside of the court. What was
going on.
Speaker 4 (00:49):
He was interesting what was happening inside of the court,
and just how quickly it's all taken place from the
abduction this weekend that we were all shocked by seeing
him and his wife standing there before a federal judge
in Lower Manhattan.
Speaker 3 (01:07):
It's surreal.
Speaker 1 (01:08):
Remind I keep messing this up. I asked you earlier.
Speaker 2 (01:10):
It was Friday night into Saturday thing. He was taking
a Saturday and Friday night. Friday night into Saturday, so
early Saturday morning he went to bed Friday night in Caraka,
says the President of Venezuela. He is in our neighborhood
today in prison garb making court appearances in the same
damn courthouse that Didty's trial took place a matter of
(01:33):
months ago. This is why it was.
Speaker 4 (01:34):
Weird to be watching the same entrance that we were
waiting to see Diddy and Ditty's family walking out of
We've walked by that court a million times when that
trial was going on, just to see it all now
take place again, but in very different circumstances with much
larger implications.
Speaker 1 (01:53):
Let's get you caught up here, folks.
Speaker 2 (01:54):
We were all talking about this earlier, but yes, it's
been an extraordinary certainly weekend a few days, but also
a few hours. Nicholas Maduro and his wife Cecilia were
taken from the MDC, the Metropolitan Detention Center in Brooklyn,
the federal prison and brought over to the Federal Courthouse
and Lower Manhattan.
Speaker 1 (02:11):
This was all this morning.
Speaker 2 (02:13):
The court appearance was at noon Eastern time, but they
started their journey, and as New Yorkers we kind of
understand this. We were looking, why are they leaving so
early from Brooklyn at seven o'clock in the morning for
a noon appearance, and well, if you live in New York,
maybe it makes sense.
Speaker 4 (02:26):
Yeah, it's probably what is it a mile at most
probably between those two sites. But yes, there was a
helicopter and then there was an armored vehicle, all to
avoid perhaps yes, some of the traffic issues allah the
Brooklyn Bridge, but also safety concerns. There were a lot
of people who were waiting and had been lining up
outside of the courthouse just to be a part of this.
(02:48):
A lot of folks who are from Venezuela, who traveled
actually from parts of the US to be just near
where this was all taking place. Some for some against
United States dead, but a lot of passionate folks outside
that courthouse waiting to see what happened inside.
Speaker 2 (03:06):
Yeah, and this was it did happen inside that same courthouse.
They just give you a sense of you're not living
in this area. This we're at the very tip of Manhattan,
Lower Manhattan, the financial district. But you have, yes, a
lot of yes, you got Wall Street and you got
all those big companies and money down here, but you
have the court system down here. And there was just
a little area down here again tip of Manhattan, where
(03:29):
this cluster of government buildings are. That is where he
made his first court appearance with his wife. We did
hear ropes officially what the charges are, and he's facing
four pretty serious charges here.
Speaker 4 (03:40):
Yes, the first and perhaps most serious the narco terrorism
conspiracy charge. Then there's a cocaine importation conspiracy charge, possession
of machine guns and destructive devices, and then conspiracy to
possess machine guns and destructive devices. So those are the
four charges that Maduro and his wife Celia are facing.
Speaker 2 (04:03):
And by all accounts, trial of trial not there yet.
Excuse me, sorry, misspoke. By all accounts, court did start,
this hearing did start right on time. He walks in
with his wife again, both wearing prison garb if you will,
tan pants, orange shoes he was in had a blue
some kind of shirt over another tan shirt, but he
(04:24):
was in prison garb. His wife was as well. They
were seated at the same table, a couple of seats
down from each other. And look, before they even got
into the court room. You just mentioned robe. The scene
outside and it was almost reminiscent in some degree of
what we saw during Diddy. People were out there and
it was an atmosphere almost carnival like at times at
least for that one today, maybe a different tone, but
(04:45):
still people were being loud and being hurt.
Speaker 4 (04:47):
Yes, and there were two defiant sides. There was the
one side that had signs that read things like thank
you President Donald Trump, Venezuela Freedom, people singing the Venezuelan
national anthem, cheering that Madua and his wife finally were apprehended.
Then there was another large crowd that felt quite the opposite,
(05:08):
supporting Maduro, saying free President Maduro, Free President Maduro and
his wife Celia so and the first ladies. So these
two factions, more than one hundred folks gathered around and
peacefully but definitely letting their feelings be known.
Speaker 2 (05:25):
And someone let their feelings be known in the courtroom
as well. There was a bit of a clash between
Maduro and I don't want to call it a protest
or at least an observer in the courtroom. We will
get into that. It was pretty much the last thing
that happened at the end of the hearing today. But
Robes he and his wife both did enter not guilty, please,
But it wasn't that simple.
Speaker 3 (05:45):
Yeah, it's funny.
Speaker 4 (05:47):
They obviously they don't know how and wouldn't have had
the experience of knowing how the court system works here
in this country, so it was interesting. You know, they're
learning as they go. They have two very high powered
lawyers by their sides, which we'll get into in a second.
But the judge starts off just asking them the simple
question to identify yourself. Normally a defendant would just give
(06:10):
their name. No, that's not what happened in this case.
Maduro said, I am the president of Venezuela. I was
captured at my home in Caracas, Venezuela. He said this
all in Spanish, and the first Lady also made a
point to say, I am the first Lady of the
Republic of Venezuela. But then when they were asked to
give their please, they didn't just go with the not guilty.
Speaker 3 (06:32):
They added a few words.
Speaker 2 (06:33):
You know, and I saw this headline initially, but he said,
I am not guilty. I am a decent man. I
am still the president of my country. Now for us,
in this country, at least Robes, we have seen defendants
get immediately lashed by a judge. No, all I need
to hear is guilty or not guilty. You don't need
(06:54):
to explain anything. I don't this is going to be
interesting because of Spanish judge. It's not, as far as
I know, a native is not a Spanish speaker. The
Maduros have time to say a lot before the judge
ever gets to translate it in his ear. This is
(07:14):
going to be a thing. He had time now, and
he might and all these hearings they might have time
to make statements unless the judge clamps down on this.
But this is why we got so many words, because
the judge couldn't cut.
Speaker 4 (07:25):
Off right because by the time, yeah, it takes a
little bit of a delay for the judge to hear
what they just said in Spanish for him to say, wait,
you can't say that. Otherwise he would have probably interrupted
them immediately. Because Celia Flores had the opportunity to say
not guilty, I'm completely innocent, so that usually is not
allowed as well. So they were both able at least
(07:45):
given the translation time that it took to add a
few extra things beyond not guilty.
Speaker 2 (07:51):
And they're told usually don't say anything, shut up, don't
say anything. But a lot of observers are now looking
and say, this is going to be the key issue.
Speaker 1 (08:00):
Forget what the charges are.
Speaker 2 (08:02):
The key issue is going to be whether or not
they should be here in the first place, and they
were legally plucked, so we're maybe possibly seeing them already
with their wheels turned into why they make some of
these statements. They were informed, They said they didn't know
about a lot of their rights, Like you just said, Robes,
they don't know the American court system. But they did
get informed they do have the right to a consular visit,
(08:24):
and they said they would like to do that. Fine,
no bail at this time because they're not seeking it yet.
So apparently all this is just happening too fast. Like
even the lawyer was like, hey, we got our ducks
in a row, and the judge said, yeah, you can
do that application later, but right now.
Speaker 3 (08:39):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (08:40):
I thought that was interesting that they didn't even have
time to even sit down and have a conversation or
at least a strategy and even asking for bail. Highly
unlikely that that would have been granted. So maybe they
just recognized that off the bat. But it's interesting you
do that, Robes, how do you give him bail?
Speaker 1 (08:58):
Where's he gonna go? He's not legally in this country.
Speaker 4 (09:02):
Maybe the only thing I get thinking of is if
he had to stay at Is there a Venezuelan embassy
here in New York or in DC?
Speaker 3 (09:09):
Obviously there would be. I think, do we have that
kind of rapport with that country?
Speaker 4 (09:13):
I don't even know what are Yeah, I wouldn't think
that we have envoys or embassies in each other's countries,
because that's how adversarial we are. I thought it was
interesting too, because the judge let Maduro and his wife
know that they are allowed if they can't afford, they
do have access to an attorney paid for by the
American people. They chose to retain their very high powered,
(09:36):
privately secured attorneys that they were able to. I was
just fascinate if they were able to secure attorneys.
Speaker 3 (09:44):
I wonder what that.
Speaker 4 (09:44):
Process is like when you are the president, or at
least the ousted president of Venezuela, how do you then
go about trying to find an American attorney.
Speaker 3 (09:54):
I bet they had him in place, maybe they were anticipating.
Speaker 2 (09:57):
Maybe for years even maybe yes, in touch with and
had all kinds of issues and this. You remember that
with Diddy, he'd been working with a lawyer for a year,
like Agnafillo, Oh who's this guy? He's got to know
they've been working together even before the arrest, So I
would guess that's the case. Mark Donnelly and Barry Pollack.
I didn't know the two names. Mark Donnelly is out
of Texas, Barry Pollack out of d C. He's the
(10:18):
one that's going to represent the first lady. But Mark Donnelly,
when I saw he represented Julian Massage.
Speaker 4 (10:25):
I thought it was Barry Pollock who represented Julius.
Speaker 2 (10:27):
Arry pollit to DC guy. I got him in or
out of order of my two people. Yes, Pollock was
the DC guy who's representing President correct. Donale is doing
the other and Pollock. When you hear that he represented
Julian Massage, you know how complicated an international legal.
Speaker 1 (10:42):
Case that was.
Speaker 3 (10:43):
I still don't even really know what happened there.
Speaker 1 (10:45):
Can't keep it. I know Julian Lossange ain't in.
Speaker 3 (10:47):
Jail exactly he did.
Speaker 4 (10:49):
He is the man who at some point was responsible
for having him get his freedom back. And so yes,
I can understand perhaps why Nicholas Maduro would want someone
like that who has that sort of experience from an
international complex case.
Speaker 3 (11:05):
This is the guy who has walked that walk before.
Speaker 4 (11:07):
So that's a very solid choice for Maduro to have
Barry Pollock mart Donnelly. Don't know a lot about him,
just that he's a lawyer from Houston, from the Texas area.
Speaker 3 (11:16):
But yes, don't know much more. But I'm sure we'll
find out.
Speaker 4 (11:19):
I'm sure there's good reason why Celia Flores chose him
as her attorney.
Speaker 2 (11:24):
All right, Well, folks, stay here when we come back.
A move was made elsewhere in Switzerland, of all places,
they could have an impact on Madero and his future. Also,
we got worried about when the next court date will be.
Stay here, all right, folks, We continue here on Amy
(11:51):
and TJ. Just a short time ago. Former President. I
haven't even gotten this right or not. Is he the
former president? Is he the ousted president? Does he have
any presidential rights of any kind?
Speaker 1 (12:02):
At this point?
Speaker 4 (12:02):
Who gets to say? I mean, he says in court
that he is still the president. I think maybe the
best way to put it that I've seen written is
ousted president because he has been ousted, and we know
that the vice president is now called the acting president.
So I don't know that there is a correct term,
and it might depend on who you ask.
Speaker 1 (12:22):
That's the thing.
Speaker 2 (12:23):
What if I ask the people of Venezuela right, what
are their laws? What is their sovereignty. This is a
fascinating legal case, and this is what it's going to
boil down too. Before forget the charges. His lawyers are
only focused on whether or not he was legally taken,
if he should even be here.
Speaker 4 (12:41):
Well, yeah, that's the first hurdle, because if they can
prove that he shouldn't legally be detained by the United States,
that we have no right as a country to hold him,
then the charges are moot.
Speaker 3 (12:51):
Who cares?
Speaker 2 (12:52):
But then the flip side of that is that our
justice system is only looking at the criminal charges like that, say,
my problem to decide whether or not he's legally here
and all this. You got somebody before me charge with
the crime. I am dealing with the criminal aspect.
Speaker 1 (13:07):
What do you do? Who decides?
Speaker 4 (13:08):
Because normally, internationally, if you're getting a fugitive to face
charges here in the United States, it's only through an
extradition policy that that country has with our country. He's
an agreement made, and there's an agreement and that's how
we proceed.
Speaker 3 (13:22):
Clearly that's not the case in this situation.
Speaker 4 (13:24):
So I don't know and Frankly, probably some of the
greatest legal minds would argue whether or not we have
a right to do this or not? What we have
a right, whether or not we can prosecute him here
in this country.
Speaker 2 (13:36):
That's the argument, and everybody, everybody wants to go with
the Noriego not a Panama example, the same legal question
came up and the court said, that's not my problem.
How he got here. He's here, He's a criminal. These
are the charges. Are they going to look at Madero
the same?
Speaker 1 (13:54):
I am.
Speaker 2 (13:55):
This is going to be fascinating. But March seventeenth is
his next scheduled court day. Now another one could come.
If they do ask for bail, if they want to
get him out, I guess something could change. So are
we're talking two months away? He's gonna sit in Brooklyn.
Speaker 3 (14:08):
That's what I was just thinking.
Speaker 4 (14:09):
I'm imagining Nicholas Maduro and his wife, Celia Flores, who
are very proud people. You could tell just from the
few moments we got to hear from them in court,
who are used to a certain way of living, a
certain way of being. He even asked the judge for
respect at one point about being able to keep his
notes and the judge seemed a little taken aback by
his tone even that.
Speaker 3 (14:30):
But he has obviously.
Speaker 4 (14:32):
A presidential way about him in certain level of expectations.
Can you imagine the two of them, with the way
they have lived their lives and how they have been
treated and how they are regarded, sitting in that notorious, yeah,
notoriously difficult, disgusting, dangerous prison in Brooklyn.
Speaker 3 (14:52):
That seems insane.
Speaker 2 (14:54):
I don't know they, I mean we high profile is
one thing, MANZIONI was over there, Maxwell was over there,
al Choppol was over there like you, notorious as hell.
But still this is a different dude. This is the
president of the sitting president. Now, other places the United
States don't recognize him as the legitimate leader. Does that
(15:18):
matter if we decide no, I'm not gonna accept you
as the president.
Speaker 1 (15:23):
I am.
Speaker 2 (15:23):
I'm asking you so many legal questions we don't have
the answer to right now. The other thing in court
is he was leaving this confrontation, and again it was
there was a lot of Spanish, and I'm seeing different
places and different interpretations, But there was a guy apparently
in the back of the courtroom who stood up at
one time at the end as Maduro was leaving and
yelled at him, you're going to pay for this, and
Madero responded to him with something.
Speaker 3 (15:46):
In Espanol, in Spanish, in.
Speaker 2 (15:48):
Espaniel, and it's being interpreted saying in the name of God,
I will be free was the response.
Speaker 1 (15:55):
At least that's one interpretation of how I went down. Wow.
Speaker 4 (15:58):
But will he have the money to be able to
pay these high powered lawyers, because we got word today
as well that the Swiss government has frozen any assets
that Nicholas Maduro and any of the people close to
him held in Switzerland and those famous offshore accounts. A
total of thirty seven people have now had their assets
(16:21):
frozen by the Swiss government. That's very significant in terms
of their ability to do anything truly. Obviously, they need
to fund their defense, they need to fund perhaps just
planning how they're getting out and what will happen next.
So if you don't have money, if you don't have
access to your funds, that is severely limiting, you know what.
Speaker 2 (16:44):
But anything we learned about dictators, they usually keep a
stash somewhere, don't they. You've seing this note here about
him saying Happy New Year to the reporters of the
courtroom in the world. By all accounts, he sounds crazy,
acted residential like, but all he carried himself in such
even respectful of the proceedings. To a certain degree, he
(17:06):
was almost like a politician.
Speaker 4 (17:07):
Well, yes, he knows obviously at this point, I would
think he is aware of how polarizing President Trump is,
and perhaps he knows. Hey, you know, he most likely,
being the politician that he is, knows how to turn
on the charm when he needs to. He knows how
to lead and perhaps even how to manipulate, or at
(17:29):
least how to carry himself. And he probably doesn't know
how to be anything other than presidential and a grand
leader who should be maybe feared and respected. That's I'm
sure his mode of operation. So why change now? Even
if he's in prison clothing and handcuffed and shackled, he's
still acting like the president of Venezuela.
Speaker 2 (17:51):
And the president of Venezuela is in a motor key
going from Manhattan to Brooklyn to the same prison that
held shall On Diddy Combs only a few short months ago.
This has been an extraordinary morning here in New York,
and it is going to be extraordinary a few weeks,
a few months, and who knows this could be years
(18:12):
in the making to watch, but the former president of
Venezuela made his first quarter appearance today, pled not guilty
to a number of charges related to his alleged narco
terrorism regime. And with that, folks, we always appreciate you
spending some time with us. Now, I'm TJ. Holmes On
behalf of my dear Amy Roboch.
Speaker 1 (18:28):
We'll talk to you also
Popular Podcasts
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
The Breakfast Club
The World's Most Dangerous Morning Show, The Breakfast Club, With DJ Envy, Jess Hilarious, And Charlamagne Tha God!