October 28, 2025 • 20 mins
CBS Evening News Co-Anchor John Dickerson has announced he is leaving CBS at the end of the year. After a 16 year career at the network and less than a year at the anchor desk, many are pointing to the timing of his announcement with the new leadership at CBS News. That leadership has been put in place in recent weeks following the purchase of CBS parent company Paramount by Skydance, a company run by the son of Larry Ellison, one of the world’s richest people and a good friend of Donald Trump. Is it just a personal decision, is it poor ratings, or is this the beginning of a new direction for CBS News?
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Speaker 1 (00:02):
Welcome everyone to this edition of Amy and TJ. Big
headline here in the media world, but bigger implications for
anyone who consumes news in this country. John Dickerson is
leaving CBS. He has been co anchoring CBS Evening News
(00:22):
now since the beginning of the year. But this is
a major head to roll and certainly a concern of
what is potentially still to come.
Speaker 2 (00:33):
Well head to roll. We haven't gotten official word, that is,
whether his head is rolling voluntarily. This is always the case, right,
But here we are once again another big name news
anchor is out. Look. We've seen a lot of this recently.
We're probably going to see a lot more of it.
But this is telling us where the media landscape is,
(00:55):
where it's going, and it's not a good sign.
Speaker 3 (00:57):
It isn't.
Speaker 1 (00:58):
And when you have the president of CBS News, who
we know very well, Tom Sabowski and old boss of ours, in.
Speaker 3 (01:05):
Announcing him leaving.
Speaker 1 (01:06):
In announcing John Dickerson's leaving, he said this John epitomizes
the very best of journalism. So if that is indeed
the case, and certainly that is what I think almost
all of his colleagues and everyone who knows him and
his work would say, why then would he leave at
the age of fifty seven, at the height of his
career at a job that most people would do anything
(01:30):
to have.
Speaker 2 (01:30):
And it's a job he's only half for nine months.
I have to remember he's had a long career there,
sixteen plus years, and he's bounced around quite a bit.
But he's essentially been a part of their biggest shows
at CBS. This is besides sixty minutes right, arguably to
be the CB at the chair of Cronkite and Murrow
and Dan Rather, that's a big deal.
Speaker 3 (01:51):
Yes, I was just going to say Cronkite.
Speaker 1 (01:53):
I mean, this is the coveted seat in broadcast journalism
period and certainly was held by the great of this industry.
And so he has been co anchoring CBS Evening News
with Maurice Debois since January of this year.
Speaker 3 (02:06):
They took over for.
Speaker 1 (02:07):
Nora O'Donnell, who had that role for six years. But
this has been a program that has suffered in the
ratings period since as long as I can remember, and.
Speaker 2 (02:20):
Has continued to suffer. Look, they haven't committed to this
new format, which is jarring. It will throw you off
the evening News is traditionally a single anchor, and it
has been a single mail anchor. But Katie Kerrig did,
Nora al Donnad did it? Who else was? I'm forgetting
a one.
Speaker 1 (02:39):
Well, Connie Chung tried it in a co anchor situation,
and also Elizabeth Vargas for a period of time as well.
Speaker 2 (02:44):
That ab so that was solo.
Speaker 1 (02:46):
Well, no, she actually did it alongside Bob Woodruff, but
he was sent off to war in a rock and
then he was injured, said your brain injury. And then
they ended up doing away with Elizabeth as well and
rejiggering the whole set up.
Speaker 2 (03:01):
And I'm thinking about Carol Simpson on the Weekends at ABC.
She did that on her own. But the point here
is that it's it was jarring to see two men
sitting up there, two men who had different style. It
wasn't just that there were men, but they were two
guys that we've actually never seen together before. They looked
like they were thrown together. They have different styles, they
have different approaches. Maurice is a local news guy here,
(03:22):
been here forever. Love Maurice, but he has a very
smooth delivery. John is a very different kind of guy.
He's known for his writing. He's known for not necessarily
the presentation being that necessarily smooth.
Speaker 1 (03:35):
He didn't even come into television until two thousand and nine.
Speaker 3 (03:38):
He was a print guy. He was a behind the
scenes guy.
Speaker 1 (03:40):
He was an amazing, incredible journalist, but not one you
saw it in front of the camera.
Speaker 2 (03:44):
So to say all that, to say, they put together
and they tried something new that they didn't actually give
a long time to see if it was going to work,
not just having two men there, but it was more
long form, sixty minutes feeling stuff in a thirty minute
evening newscast, not what we're used to say.
Speaker 1 (04:01):
You and I watched it for the first time together
and were a little shaken just because it was so different.
Speaker 2 (04:06):
It gave us some days.
Speaker 3 (04:08):
Yes, we did it, just it's not look.
Speaker 1 (04:11):
I think the idea was that you were all getting
this long stream of reporting all day long, so by
the time the evening newsuals around, you already know pretty
much the listener, the viewer, all of the headlines. So
they wanted to go in depth with some of the
bigger headlines or do more storytelling.
Speaker 2 (04:27):
And it's all quality stuff by that.
Speaker 1 (04:28):
Absolutely, absolutely, but it just wasn't something people were used
to seeing for the Evening News, and the ratings did
not go in the direction they were hoping they would,
so they claim, by all accounts, he is leaving on
his own.
Speaker 3 (04:43):
This is a personal decision.
Speaker 1 (04:45):
But of course this comes in terms of timing wise
at a very a major crossroads at CBS News is
that they are they have been changing significant changes in
leadership and potentially in the direction of their news gap.
And so we've seen several prominent folks step down resign
jobs that nobody would ever normally resign voluntarily.
Speaker 3 (05:07):
However, they all claimed to be voluntary.
Speaker 2 (05:10):
Well, the guy from stepped down from sixty minutes, Yes
he Bill Owens didn't he I thought. He went out
suggesting that no, I can't roll like this, I can't
work like this.
Speaker 1 (05:20):
Phil Owens resigned as the sixty Minutes executive producer and
the mastermind behind this latest rendition of CBS Evening News.
He resigned back in April, and he said because of
what he called the loss of journalistic freedom. So he
did not pretend, and in fact, just on Friday of
this past week, he actually gave a speech to a
(05:42):
college where he said his decision to leave was quote,
the only thing that I could do was to professionally
blow myself up to create a blast radius around sixty
minutes to get people's attention that this was happening.
Speaker 2 (05:55):
A lot of people take it very you know, take
the changes over there and see journalism in the way
that I think is losing its luster. Anybody today with
an iPhone and time on their hands can go out
and start reporting from a riot, from a protest, from
a fire, from a whatever else. And a lot of
(06:16):
those people are building names for themselves, followings and making
good living. And then it turns out that's the way
a lot of people are choosing to get their news.
So I know, and I understand the landscape is changing
journalistically at least at least some of these arguments that
they're making. But at the same time, the reality is,
if you're getting four million viewers on your evening broadcast
(06:40):
today and just a few decades ago you were getting twelve, thirteen, fourteen,
fifteen million, something's going to change exactly.
Speaker 1 (06:46):
And so a lot of folks say, hey, this is
about ratings. This is about the fact that the format's
not working and the content is not resonating with viewers. However,
there are other folks who point to the major changes
that are happening at CBS now News and so, look,
we have reported on this significantly on Morning Run, just
talking about what is happening over at CBS. Of course,
(07:08):
they just paid out recently in recent months, that major
lawsuit that Trump had against specifically sixty Minutes, saying that
he did not think that the way they edited their
piece or their interview with Kamala Harris, he felt like
that was bad journalism, that they made her look better
than she actually sounded. And so he sued CBS News
(07:32):
and very much against a lot of the folks wishes
in the news department.
Speaker 3 (07:36):
They settled for sixteen million dollars.
Speaker 2 (07:39):
He won a ten billion though, so.
Speaker 3 (07:42):
There was that. But behind the scenes with all of
this going on, of course CBS News, the parent company Paramount,
was trying to merge or they were trying to create
a merger.
Speaker 2 (07:55):
We're trying to sell the company.
Speaker 3 (07:56):
They were trying to sell the company. They needed the out,
they needed the FCS to approve the sale.
Speaker 1 (08:02):
And in order for the FCC to approve the sale, well,
a lot of people believe that that settlement was basically
a way for that to move forward smoothly.
Speaker 2 (08:11):
So the settlement goes forward, and not long after Trump
and CBS settle, the sale goes through sky Dance purchases paramounts.
Sky Dance, of course, is run by the guy who
is the son of Larry Ellison, who is the second
(08:31):
richest man in the world, who happens to be a
buddy budy with Donald Trump. Did you follow all that, folks,
What we're essentially trying to say is there was There
has been all kinds of speculation, and some say will
flat out evidence, and some say it's right in your
face that there was a deal. Essentially behind the scene,
even if it wasn't a deal, there was some funny business.
(08:53):
And CBS has now been sold and is the people
in charge of CBS News right this legacy media company
are supporters of Donald Trump. Correct, And now they have
put in charge a woman Robes, who I wasn't that
familiar with but did not come from a traditional news background.
And some will say that's a good thing, and some
say that's absolutely the wrong thing for CBS News right now.
Speaker 1 (09:17):
That's right. Her name is Barry Weiss, and she is
a conservative opinion journalist. That's pretty much how most people
have described her. She wrote op eds for the New
York Times with the conservative slant, and she had a
website called free Press that was purchased by this new
company formed by sky Dance and Paramount and by the Ellisons.
(09:42):
And she has been named CBS's editor in chief.
Speaker 2 (09:47):
They say she's got her finger on the pulse of
what's going on in culture these days. Some will say
she absolutely has conservative leanings. And now this is a
situation where you have the presidents, have the president, you
have conservatives, you have billionaires in charge now of specific messaging,
and they have a huge network to send that messaging out.
(10:10):
And a lot of people are terrified about what's about
to happen to CBS News. But then you have a
guy like John Dickerson with no explanation, just saying I'm
out of here. People are piecing things together even though
we don't have an official work.
Speaker 1 (10:21):
Yes, and he is going to be anchoring this show
alongside Maurice du Bois as far as we understand through
the holidays, but it's unclear what's going to happen to Maurice.
A lot of folks are pointing to the fact that
they believe Barry Weiss wants to change things, shake things
up pretty dramatically with that show. Specifically, reportedly, she's thrown
out wish lists of who she'd like to anchor the show,
(10:43):
including Brett Bear Anderson Cooper. They're both under contract though
through other networks, and I believe it.
Speaker 2 (10:50):
Anderson still with.
Speaker 1 (10:52):
Sixty Minutes, Yes, so he could easily be like, there
is a partnership between CNN and CBS at least they've
shared talent before in other vents. But certainly I think
Brettbear even actually acknowledged this rumor that's going on that
he's wanted, but he's his contract it box is through
twenty twenty eight.
Speaker 2 (11:10):
Oh, I didn't know anyone out there had acknowledged.
Speaker 3 (11:13):
Oh yes, Bretdbearer himself had him. He said he was flattering.
Speaker 2 (11:16):
They Look, this is a very big job. Where does
it go. Look, give will to give everybody a shot,
everybody a chance. But this is just another earthquake for
us to see another big name anchor. Look, those anchors
and the names they have and the price tags they carry,
(11:36):
you just cannot just obviously it's not getting you the
return on your investment if the numbers keep going down, down, down,
down down. To the last season, seven and a half
million people watched ABC Evening News I think six million
for NBC, four million, four CBS News. And when you
think decades ago, these folks were pulling fifteen eleven, twelve,
(12:00):
ten million.
Speaker 3 (12:02):
Not that long ago.
Speaker 2 (12:03):
It wasn't that long ago. They had a bump. They
did come back during the pandemic. Yes there was an increase,
but other than that there numbers have been going down.
Speaker 1 (12:10):
People are not getting their news, and certainly they're not
sitting down at the end of a long day to
find out what happened. They already know they get the
issue right. But we're seeing this in broadcast news, not
just on the evening in the evening programs, but certainly
all throughout. Like we have just people have been talking
about the end of an era in broadcast news, where
(12:31):
you've got the Lester Holtz have left. I mean already
Brian Williams was long gone, Matt Lower was long gone.
But then you've got goodbye to ho to Copy, goodbye
to Norah O'Donnell. You know, just it seems like that
is where things are headed.
Speaker 2 (12:48):
We say, headed, that's fair. It has to be where
we are. I mean you mentioned, I mean Jim Acosta,
Joey Read. You can add to that bunch of people,
these names that are gone and you think they would
never go away, but they are. You just can't afford
it anymore. You can't pay somebody fifteen million dollars and
(13:09):
your viewership is down seventy percent in the past ten years. Yeah,
the economics aren't there.
Speaker 3 (13:14):
You can't make it happen.
Speaker 1 (13:15):
But specifically at CBS, there are many who believe there
is more afoot than just the economics and certainly just
the ratings. The New York Times predicted this. They said
that Dickerson's departure is the first sign of what is
expected to be a major shakeup at CBS News under
its new corporate owners, and part of that departure already
(13:36):
began a few months ago. Welcome back, as we talk
about this major shakeup at CBS News. CBS Evening News
co anchor John Dickerson announced that he is leaving the network.
(13:58):
He will have some of his final shows right around
the holidays at CBS News and then he is out
of there. This is the first major talent that we've
seen depart CBS News, but certainly we have seen some
important people who make major decisions at this network leave
over the last few months. Given the changing landscape at
(14:20):
CBS News, I guess it began really back in April
with Bill Owens, the former sixty Minutes executive producer who
resigned in protest, and he made no bones about why
he was leaving the network.
Speaker 2 (14:33):
Look, I commend anybody who does. That's just that is
the job. You tell any ghost, talk to any producer
who is a hard news producer in this country, name
three jobs. The ultimate they would name that job the
executive producer of sixty minutes. And look, God, we don't
know enough about We hear things kind of trickle out
about what's happening behind the scenes, but you can only
(14:56):
imagine how that feels in that place. That is a
more storied place, I guess in the journalism than the others.
Speaker 3 (15:03):
And it's the only place actually that I haven't worked.
You've never worked. Have you ever worked for a CBS station,
CBS affiliate.
Speaker 2 (15:10):
An affiliate, it wasn't owned and operator, but in Little
Rocky it was a CBS station.
Speaker 1 (15:14):
But this that is that was at least the the
place for journalism with a capital J, I guess would
be a good way to put it. So the following month,
remember CBS News President and chief executive officer Wendy McMahon
resigned in May, and she said her quote was, it
became clear the company and I did not agree on
(15:35):
the path forward. That was a huge shakeup again a
job that she hadn't had for very long. She came
over from ABC News and there were high hopes about
what she could do and bring to the news division.
Speaker 2 (15:46):
I think a lot of people respected her and had
high hopes. And yeah, that fizzled as well.
Speaker 3 (15:54):
Very much so.
Speaker 1 (15:55):
And then just this month, Claudia Milney you might not
know her name, but she oversaw standard and practices at CBS.
She resigned for personal reasons. Standards and practices we know
a little bit about working with them, but they really
uphold the journalistic standards of a news organization and hold
you to it.
Speaker 2 (16:14):
And look, there's turn on some of this. I know
that people are piecing it together and sometimes your political
leanings make you feel about it one way or another.
There's always Look, there is turmoil in this industry, and
if you're in it long enough. Either you're going to
go through some cycle where new people come in and
then everybody's nervous about the new leadership. Who's going to
be on the way out. They're going through that turmoil
(16:35):
right now. The extra part about this is not just
a matter of who the new people want to leave,
who they want to stay, who they want to bring in.
It's a matter of where editorially do they want to
take us. And I think that's for god hell, people
that work there, people who don't work there, including us,
everybody in journalism would be concerned about absolutely.
Speaker 1 (16:55):
And people are also pointing to the cancelation of the
Late Show with Stephen Colbert. They're put that in with
all of these Well, these are resignations. He was actually
his show was canceled, so it wasn't on his terms.
He didn't choose this, and I think that is of
note too. You point to the turmoil and people, Yes,
we have all been in newsrooms over the years where
new management comes in, a new news director comes in
(17:18):
and they want to put their stamp on it, and
they want to change things up and put things in
a different direction, put different people in different positions. But
this has been unusual in that we've seen so many
folks resign jobs. They're not getting fired, they're not being
pushed out, They're leaving for whatever reason on their own terms,
and they're not really talking about it too often. Obviously
(17:39):
Bill Owens has been speaking, But for the most part,
people are being respectful and just ending things on their terms.
And that's what we're potentially seeing here with John Dickerson.
Speaker 2 (17:49):
Whatever he look he's had a long career. If he
wants to go chill, wants to go relax, knock yourself
out and do it for whatever reason he decided to
make this. If he wants to talk about it more later,
that is great, But I would give I don't know
anything about Barry Weisse. I don't know anything about this
lady other than what I read and what other people say.
But that's not good enough for me. I will wait
to see, yeah, wait and see what she does how
(18:11):
she does, and you just never know the direction it's
going to go with. You could certainly understand as well
why some people say it does look good.
Speaker 3 (18:18):
Correct right now, correct, it doesn't look good.
Speaker 1 (18:20):
But there are a lot of reasons why, and a
lot of factors potentially that went into these decisions, including
John Dickerson's decision to leave CBS News, but we certainly
wish him the best. He's had a remarkable career. His
mother was the first. I didn't realize that she was
the first female correspondent for CBS News in nineteen sixty
Nancy Dickerson. So he has family legacy at CBS. And
(18:43):
the nice thing for him, I would say that he
gets to leave on top, and he gets to make
the call, and he is.
Speaker 3 (18:49):
Being and he will be remembered and honored.
Speaker 1 (18:52):
I don't want to make it sound like he died,
but certainly the next few weeks and certainly leading up
until his final broadcast, you will and we will all
get to see more of the mark and the impact
he's had in this industry.
Speaker 2 (19:05):
That's great. They say they're going to honor him, and
so he'll be there. So it's good he can ride
out this that detail. When I read that about his moms,
I didn't know it before this either. That made me sad.
I think he's at this place, you know how, this
is not just a place to him, This meant something.
His mom is a history maker at that place. Maybe
he does feel like he's going out on top or
(19:27):
his own terms, or maybe there's a part of him
that's just disgusted that this is the place he's in
and has to do it. Also had to consider the
possibility not not wink wink and nudge nudge. He might
have been told do this or correct, we're going to
push you out, but we do not know that. We
don't have answers. So what we know for a fact,
(19:49):
the guy's had a hell of a career. Congrats to
him for what he's doing. The rats were getting out
in this way, and if it's some semblance that he
got to, I guess hold on to some bit of dignity. Right.
If he's happy with his decision, then I applaud him.
Speaker 3 (20:08):
It's wonderful to be able to leave on your own terms.
Speaker 1 (20:10):
And you know you mentioned he's a good writer, so
we could have a book to read in the future.
I would think that's highly likely. All right, Thank you
all for listening to us. We always appreciate it. I
made me roback alongside T. J.
Speaker 3 (20:22):
Holmes. We will talk to you soon.
Welcome everyone to this edition of Amy and TJ. Big
headline here in the media world, but bigger implications for
anyone who consumes news in this country. John Dickerson is
leaving CBS. He has been co anchoring CBS Evening News
(00:22):
now since the beginning of the year. But this is
a major head to roll and certainly a concern of
what is potentially still to come.
Speaker 2 (00:33):
Well head to roll. We haven't gotten official word, that is,
whether his head is rolling voluntarily. This is always the case, right,
But here we are once again another big name news
anchor is out. Look. We've seen a lot of this recently.
We're probably going to see a lot more of it.
But this is telling us where the media landscape is,
(00:55):
where it's going, and it's not a good sign.
Speaker 3 (00:57):
It isn't.
Speaker 1 (00:58):
And when you have the president of CBS News, who
we know very well, Tom Sabowski and old boss of ours, in.
Speaker 3 (01:05):
Announcing him leaving.
Speaker 1 (01:06):
In announcing John Dickerson's leaving, he said this John epitomizes
the very best of journalism. So if that is indeed
the case, and certainly that is what I think almost
all of his colleagues and everyone who knows him and
his work would say, why then would he leave at
the age of fifty seven, at the height of his
career at a job that most people would do anything
(01:30):
to have.
Speaker 2 (01:30):
And it's a job he's only half for nine months.
I have to remember he's had a long career there,
sixteen plus years, and he's bounced around quite a bit.
But he's essentially been a part of their biggest shows
at CBS. This is besides sixty minutes right, arguably to
be the CB at the chair of Cronkite and Murrow
and Dan Rather, that's a big deal.
Speaker 3 (01:51):
Yes, I was just going to say Cronkite.
Speaker 1 (01:53):
I mean, this is the coveted seat in broadcast journalism
period and certainly was held by the great of this industry.
And so he has been co anchoring CBS Evening News
with Maurice Debois since January of this year.
Speaker 3 (02:06):
They took over for.
Speaker 1 (02:07):
Nora O'Donnell, who had that role for six years. But
this has been a program that has suffered in the
ratings period since as long as I can remember, and.
Speaker 2 (02:20):
Has continued to suffer. Look, they haven't committed to this
new format, which is jarring. It will throw you off
the evening News is traditionally a single anchor, and it
has been a single mail anchor. But Katie Kerrig did,
Nora al Donnad did it? Who else was? I'm forgetting
a one.
Speaker 1 (02:39):
Well, Connie Chung tried it in a co anchor situation,
and also Elizabeth Vargas for a period of time as well.
Speaker 2 (02:44):
That ab so that was solo.
Speaker 1 (02:46):
Well, no, she actually did it alongside Bob Woodruff, but
he was sent off to war in a rock and
then he was injured, said your brain injury. And then
they ended up doing away with Elizabeth as well and
rejiggering the whole set up.
Speaker 2 (03:01):
And I'm thinking about Carol Simpson on the Weekends at ABC.
She did that on her own. But the point here
is that it's it was jarring to see two men
sitting up there, two men who had different style. It
wasn't just that there were men, but they were two
guys that we've actually never seen together before. They looked
like they were thrown together. They have different styles, they
have different approaches. Maurice is a local news guy here,
(03:22):
been here forever. Love Maurice, but he has a very
smooth delivery. John is a very different kind of guy.
He's known for his writing. He's known for not necessarily
the presentation being that necessarily smooth.
Speaker 1 (03:35):
He didn't even come into television until two thousand and nine.
Speaker 3 (03:38):
He was a print guy. He was a behind the
scenes guy.
Speaker 1 (03:40):
He was an amazing, incredible journalist, but not one you
saw it in front of the camera.
Speaker 2 (03:44):
So to say all that, to say, they put together
and they tried something new that they didn't actually give
a long time to see if it was going to work,
not just having two men there, but it was more
long form, sixty minutes feeling stuff in a thirty minute
evening newscast, not what we're used to say.
Speaker 1 (04:01):
You and I watched it for the first time together
and were a little shaken just because it was so different.
Speaker 2 (04:06):
It gave us some days.
Speaker 3 (04:08):
Yes, we did it, just it's not look.
Speaker 1 (04:11):
I think the idea was that you were all getting
this long stream of reporting all day long, so by
the time the evening newsuals around, you already know pretty
much the listener, the viewer, all of the headlines. So
they wanted to go in depth with some of the
bigger headlines or do more storytelling.
Speaker 2 (04:27):
And it's all quality stuff by that.
Speaker 1 (04:28):
Absolutely, absolutely, but it just wasn't something people were used
to seeing for the Evening News, and the ratings did
not go in the direction they were hoping they would,
so they claim, by all accounts, he is leaving on
his own.
Speaker 3 (04:43):
This is a personal decision.
Speaker 1 (04:45):
But of course this comes in terms of timing wise
at a very a major crossroads at CBS News is
that they are they have been changing significant changes in
leadership and potentially in the direction of their news gap.
And so we've seen several prominent folks step down resign
jobs that nobody would ever normally resign voluntarily.
Speaker 3 (05:07):
However, they all claimed to be voluntary.
Speaker 2 (05:10):
Well, the guy from stepped down from sixty minutes, Yes
he Bill Owens didn't he I thought. He went out
suggesting that no, I can't roll like this, I can't
work like this.
Speaker 1 (05:20):
Phil Owens resigned as the sixty Minutes executive producer and
the mastermind behind this latest rendition of CBS Evening News.
He resigned back in April, and he said because of
what he called the loss of journalistic freedom. So he
did not pretend, and in fact, just on Friday of
this past week, he actually gave a speech to a
(05:42):
college where he said his decision to leave was quote,
the only thing that I could do was to professionally
blow myself up to create a blast radius around sixty
minutes to get people's attention that this was happening.
Speaker 2 (05:55):
A lot of people take it very you know, take
the changes over there and see journalism in the way
that I think is losing its luster. Anybody today with
an iPhone and time on their hands can go out
and start reporting from a riot, from a protest, from
a fire, from a whatever else. And a lot of
(06:16):
those people are building names for themselves, followings and making
good living. And then it turns out that's the way
a lot of people are choosing to get their news.
So I know, and I understand the landscape is changing
journalistically at least at least some of these arguments that
they're making. But at the same time, the reality is,
if you're getting four million viewers on your evening broadcast
(06:40):
today and just a few decades ago you were getting twelve, thirteen, fourteen,
fifteen million, something's going to change exactly.
Speaker 1 (06:46):
And so a lot of folks say, hey, this is
about ratings. This is about the fact that the format's
not working and the content is not resonating with viewers. However,
there are other folks who point to the major changes
that are happening at CBS now News and so, look,
we have reported on this significantly on Morning Run, just
talking about what is happening over at CBS. Of course,
(07:08):
they just paid out recently in recent months, that major
lawsuit that Trump had against specifically sixty Minutes, saying that
he did not think that the way they edited their
piece or their interview with Kamala Harris, he felt like
that was bad journalism, that they made her look better
than she actually sounded. And so he sued CBS News
(07:32):
and very much against a lot of the folks wishes
in the news department.
Speaker 3 (07:36):
They settled for sixteen million dollars.
Speaker 2 (07:39):
He won a ten billion though, so.
Speaker 3 (07:42):
There was that. But behind the scenes with all of
this going on, of course CBS News, the parent company Paramount,
was trying to merge or they were trying to create
a merger.
Speaker 2 (07:55):
We're trying to sell the company.
Speaker 3 (07:56):
They were trying to sell the company. They needed the out,
they needed the FCS to approve the sale.
Speaker 1 (08:02):
And in order for the FCC to approve the sale, well,
a lot of people believe that that settlement was basically
a way for that to move forward smoothly.
Speaker 2 (08:11):
So the settlement goes forward, and not long after Trump
and CBS settle, the sale goes through sky Dance purchases paramounts.
Sky Dance, of course, is run by the guy who
is the son of Larry Ellison, who is the second
(08:31):
richest man in the world, who happens to be a
buddy budy with Donald Trump. Did you follow all that, folks,
What we're essentially trying to say is there was There
has been all kinds of speculation, and some say will
flat out evidence, and some say it's right in your
face that there was a deal. Essentially behind the scene,
even if it wasn't a deal, there was some funny business.
(08:53):
And CBS has now been sold and is the people
in charge of CBS News right this legacy media company
are supporters of Donald Trump. Correct, And now they have
put in charge a woman Robes, who I wasn't that
familiar with but did not come from a traditional news background.
And some will say that's a good thing, and some
say that's absolutely the wrong thing for CBS News right now.
Speaker 1 (09:17):
That's right. Her name is Barry Weiss, and she is
a conservative opinion journalist. That's pretty much how most people
have described her. She wrote op eds for the New
York Times with the conservative slant, and she had a
website called free Press that was purchased by this new
company formed by sky Dance and Paramount and by the Ellisons.
(09:42):
And she has been named CBS's editor in chief.
Speaker 2 (09:47):
They say she's got her finger on the pulse of
what's going on in culture these days. Some will say
she absolutely has conservative leanings. And now this is a
situation where you have the presidents, have the president, you
have conservatives, you have billionaires in charge now of specific messaging,
and they have a huge network to send that messaging out.
(10:10):
And a lot of people are terrified about what's about
to happen to CBS News. But then you have a
guy like John Dickerson with no explanation, just saying I'm
out of here. People are piecing things together even though
we don't have an official work.
Speaker 1 (10:21):
Yes, and he is going to be anchoring this show
alongside Maurice du Bois as far as we understand through
the holidays, but it's unclear what's going to happen to Maurice.
A lot of folks are pointing to the fact that
they believe Barry Weiss wants to change things, shake things
up pretty dramatically with that show. Specifically, reportedly, she's thrown
out wish lists of who she'd like to anchor the show,
(10:43):
including Brett Bear Anderson Cooper. They're both under contract though
through other networks, and I believe it.
Speaker 2 (10:50):
Anderson still with.
Speaker 1 (10:52):
Sixty Minutes, Yes, so he could easily be like, there
is a partnership between CNN and CBS at least they've
shared talent before in other vents. But certainly I think
Brettbear even actually acknowledged this rumor that's going on that
he's wanted, but he's his contract it box is through
twenty twenty eight.
Speaker 2 (11:10):
Oh, I didn't know anyone out there had acknowledged.
Speaker 3 (11:13):
Oh yes, Bretdbearer himself had him. He said he was flattering.
Speaker 2 (11:16):
They Look, this is a very big job. Where does
it go. Look, give will to give everybody a shot,
everybody a chance. But this is just another earthquake for
us to see another big name anchor. Look, those anchors
and the names they have and the price tags they carry,
(11:36):
you just cannot just obviously it's not getting you the
return on your investment if the numbers keep going down, down, down,
down down. To the last season, seven and a half
million people watched ABC Evening News I think six million
for NBC, four million, four CBS News. And when you
think decades ago, these folks were pulling fifteen eleven, twelve,
(12:00):
ten million.
Speaker 3 (12:02):
Not that long ago.
Speaker 2 (12:03):
It wasn't that long ago. They had a bump. They
did come back during the pandemic. Yes there was an increase,
but other than that there numbers have been going down.
Speaker 1 (12:10):
People are not getting their news, and certainly they're not
sitting down at the end of a long day to
find out what happened. They already know they get the
issue right. But we're seeing this in broadcast news, not
just on the evening in the evening programs, but certainly
all throughout. Like we have just people have been talking
about the end of an era in broadcast news, where
(12:31):
you've got the Lester Holtz have left. I mean already
Brian Williams was long gone, Matt Lower was long gone.
But then you've got goodbye to ho to Copy, goodbye
to Norah O'Donnell. You know, just it seems like that
is where things are headed.
Speaker 2 (12:48):
We say, headed, that's fair. It has to be where
we are. I mean you mentioned, I mean Jim Acosta,
Joey Read. You can add to that bunch of people,
these names that are gone and you think they would
never go away, but they are. You just can't afford
it anymore. You can't pay somebody fifteen million dollars and
(13:09):
your viewership is down seventy percent in the past ten years. Yeah,
the economics aren't there.
Speaker 3 (13:14):
You can't make it happen.
Speaker 1 (13:15):
But specifically at CBS, there are many who believe there
is more afoot than just the economics and certainly just
the ratings. The New York Times predicted this. They said
that Dickerson's departure is the first sign of what is
expected to be a major shakeup at CBS News under
its new corporate owners, and part of that departure already
(13:36):
began a few months ago. Welcome back, as we talk
about this major shakeup at CBS News. CBS Evening News
co anchor John Dickerson announced that he is leaving the network.
(13:58):
He will have some of his final shows right around
the holidays at CBS News and then he is out
of there. This is the first major talent that we've
seen depart CBS News, but certainly we have seen some
important people who make major decisions at this network leave
over the last few months. Given the changing landscape at
(14:20):
CBS News, I guess it began really back in April
with Bill Owens, the former sixty Minutes executive producer who
resigned in protest, and he made no bones about why
he was leaving the network.
Speaker 2 (14:33):
Look, I commend anybody who does. That's just that is
the job. You tell any ghost, talk to any producer
who is a hard news producer in this country, name
three jobs. The ultimate they would name that job the
executive producer of sixty minutes. And look, God, we don't
know enough about We hear things kind of trickle out
about what's happening behind the scenes, but you can only
(14:56):
imagine how that feels in that place. That is a
more storied place, I guess in the journalism than the others.
Speaker 3 (15:03):
And it's the only place actually that I haven't worked.
You've never worked. Have you ever worked for a CBS station,
CBS affiliate.
Speaker 2 (15:10):
An affiliate, it wasn't owned and operator, but in Little
Rocky it was a CBS station.
Speaker 1 (15:14):
But this that is that was at least the the
place for journalism with a capital J, I guess would
be a good way to put it. So the following month,
remember CBS News President and chief executive officer Wendy McMahon
resigned in May, and she said her quote was, it
became clear the company and I did not agree on
(15:35):
the path forward. That was a huge shakeup again a
job that she hadn't had for very long. She came
over from ABC News and there were high hopes about
what she could do and bring to the news division.
Speaker 2 (15:46):
I think a lot of people respected her and had
high hopes. And yeah, that fizzled as well.
Speaker 3 (15:54):
Very much so.
Speaker 1 (15:55):
And then just this month, Claudia Milney you might not
know her name, but she oversaw standard and practices at CBS.
She resigned for personal reasons. Standards and practices we know
a little bit about working with them, but they really
uphold the journalistic standards of a news organization and hold
you to it.
Speaker 2 (16:14):
And look, there's turn on some of this. I know
that people are piecing it together and sometimes your political
leanings make you feel about it one way or another.
There's always Look, there is turmoil in this industry, and
if you're in it long enough. Either you're going to
go through some cycle where new people come in and
then everybody's nervous about the new leadership. Who's going to
be on the way out. They're going through that turmoil
(16:35):
right now. The extra part about this is not just
a matter of who the new people want to leave,
who they want to stay, who they want to bring in.
It's a matter of where editorially do they want to
take us. And I think that's for god hell, people
that work there, people who don't work there, including us,
everybody in journalism would be concerned about absolutely.
Speaker 1 (16:55):
And people are also pointing to the cancelation of the
Late Show with Stephen Colbert. They're put that in with
all of these Well, these are resignations. He was actually
his show was canceled, so it wasn't on his terms.
He didn't choose this, and I think that is of
note too. You point to the turmoil and people, Yes,
we have all been in newsrooms over the years where
new management comes in, a new news director comes in
(17:18):
and they want to put their stamp on it, and
they want to change things up and put things in
a different direction, put different people in different positions. But
this has been unusual in that we've seen so many
folks resign jobs. They're not getting fired, they're not being
pushed out, They're leaving for whatever reason on their own terms,
and they're not really talking about it too often. Obviously
(17:39):
Bill Owens has been speaking, But for the most part,
people are being respectful and just ending things on their terms.
And that's what we're potentially seeing here with John Dickerson.
Speaker 2 (17:49):
Whatever he look he's had a long career. If he
wants to go chill, wants to go relax, knock yourself
out and do it for whatever reason he decided to
make this. If he wants to talk about it more later,
that is great, But I would give I don't know
anything about Barry Weisse. I don't know anything about this
lady other than what I read and what other people say.
But that's not good enough for me. I will wait
to see, yeah, wait and see what she does how
(18:11):
she does, and you just never know the direction it's
going to go with. You could certainly understand as well
why some people say it does look good.
Speaker 3 (18:18):
Correct right now, correct, it doesn't look good.
Speaker 1 (18:20):
But there are a lot of reasons why, and a
lot of factors potentially that went into these decisions, including
John Dickerson's decision to leave CBS News, but we certainly
wish him the best. He's had a remarkable career. His
mother was the first. I didn't realize that she was
the first female correspondent for CBS News in nineteen sixty
Nancy Dickerson. So he has family legacy at CBS. And
(18:43):
the nice thing for him, I would say that he
gets to leave on top, and he gets to make
the call, and he is.
Speaker 3 (18:49):
Being and he will be remembered and honored.
Speaker 1 (18:52):
I don't want to make it sound like he died,
but certainly the next few weeks and certainly leading up
until his final broadcast, you will and we will all
get to see more of the mark and the impact
he's had in this industry.
Speaker 2 (19:05):
That's great. They say they're going to honor him, and
so he'll be there. So it's good he can ride
out this that detail. When I read that about his moms,
I didn't know it before this either. That made me sad.
I think he's at this place, you know how, this
is not just a place to him, This meant something.
His mom is a history maker at that place. Maybe
he does feel like he's going out on top or
(19:27):
his own terms, or maybe there's a part of him
that's just disgusted that this is the place he's in
and has to do it. Also had to consider the
possibility not not wink wink and nudge nudge. He might
have been told do this or correct, we're going to
push you out, but we do not know that. We
don't have answers. So what we know for a fact,
(19:49):
the guy's had a hell of a career. Congrats to
him for what he's doing. The rats were getting out
in this way, and if it's some semblance that he
got to, I guess hold on to some bit of dignity. Right.
If he's happy with his decision, then I applaud him.
Speaker 3 (20:08):
It's wonderful to be able to leave on your own terms.
Speaker 1 (20:10):
And you know you mentioned he's a good writer, so
we could have a book to read in the future.
I would think that's highly likely. All right, Thank you
all for listening to us. We always appreciate it. I
made me roback alongside T. J.
Speaker 3 (20:22):
Holmes. We will talk to you soon.
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