February 3, 2020 • 46 mins
December 11th is the most popular day for a "breakup" and January is known as Divorce Month. Legal experts believe this comes down to one thing: The holidays. People don't want to get divorced during the holidays. So just in time for Valentine's Day, the men are trying to understand the reasons why couples divorce with well known divorce attorney Laura Wasser.
By listening to HOW MEN THINK we find out if there is anything we can do to prevent it, get through it, thrive after it, deal with it and heal from divorce!
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
This is how men think with broths Light and Gavin
to grab and I heard radio podcast. Okay, so we
are going to intro our guest for today's discussion. And Amy,
you are sitting there just gloating at because I feel
it's perfect timing with Valentine's Day coming, with Valentine's coming
in the head. No, but I will. I will say this.
(00:22):
I'm not planning on it any by any means, but
if I ever get divorced, it's gonna be before Valentine's
Day because I hate Valentine's Dmitri just totally like, explain
what we're doing. So we're talking about we're talking about Valentine.
Way to steal the punchline, dude, So I will steal.
I got So that is? That is Amy wanted to
(00:43):
play some sick joke, could do a divorce conversation prior
to Valentine's Day, but it turns out there's an actual
real connection at this time of year for that. Um. So, Amy,
do you want to introduce our steamed guests. We're very
lucky to have her here we are today, So and Laura,
Laura Wasser is here. And so when I introduced Laura
(01:07):
to you, guys, I said, she is literally and I
stand by this. Probably the most well known and prolific
is that the right word divorce attorney in the country, dubious.
So I know when I wrote notes, I said, your
name is synonymous with divorce. How does that feel? Um? Yeah,
(01:31):
it's uh, it feels great. You know when you think
of a divorce and misery, you think Laura Wasser. People
are gonna say, I'm getting a Wasser getting a Walker.
Uh No, I My My whole jam is just trying
to educate people about not only divorce, but about marriage
and relationships and how with better communication and compassion, we
(01:55):
can handle ourselves better in all relationships, but certainly if
we're getting divorce, and particularly if we're getting divorced from
someone with whom we have kids and are going to
have to co parent. Okay, So I'll give you guys
a little background for our listeners on Laura. So she's
an attorney, she's an author, entrepreneur, and a family law expert.
She's represented a huge list of celebrities Kim Kardashi and
(02:17):
Bron Reynolds and affairs Jimmy Levine, Maria Shriver down the row. Um,
But She maintains that divorce is the great equalizer in
that it terrifies everybody, everybody. So she's made it her
mission to change us by creating It's Over Easy, which
gives divorcing couples an accessible and affordable resource to dissolve
(02:37):
their marriage in all fifty states. You're an author of
New York best Time seller like high five to that.
That's amazing. I wish I could write that under my name.
I just want to write Brooks like New York Best
Brooks like mediocre podcast. You're a mediocre podcast manager. Want
(03:00):
to make a I want to make a quick note.
It's Jimmy Iovine, but I have I have a friend
at school, his buddy of mine, and his kids are
in his Jimmy Levine, so I don't want him to listen,
and people think he's getting um So anyway, one of
the most qualified people in this state. And Amy, why
does this, why does this conversation for you have never
(03:21):
been married? Why does this excite you so much? Well,
it doesn't excite me, like Christmas. But here's what. You
have to take your coat off because you said you're
just getting sweaty. Because I think relationships fascinate me, and
I think that look, fifty of marriages do not work.
So I think if we start talking about divorce, we
may make it easier for people that are going through it,
(03:45):
and we also could prevent it. I think Laura has
a lot of great input. We just had an amazing
conversation for the last half an hour getting ready for
the show about it's not about the divorce, it's about
the relationship. I'll let Laura speak on that, but I
would love to ask you do you think marriage works.
I think marriage works for some people. I think if
you are a couple that has found your soul mate
(04:08):
or found even if it's not your soul mate, but
it's your groove, your best friend, somebody who want to
be with God bless I mean, I'm not I don't
want people to get divorced. But I also think, realistically speaking,
in there are people who have been married for a
certain period of time and for whatever reason, have grown apart.
Things have separated them in some way, and I think
(04:28):
it's healthier for individuals and kids to see too happy
parents that may not be living under the same roof
than miserable people. But being able to say but we've
been married for fifty years. So I think if it's
not working and we can't figure out a way to
make it work, I want it to be easier for people,
at least financially and um legally to split up. Then
(04:52):
I think they can really focus on the heart and
the mind and emotionally doing things in a kind of
a mindful, cost effective way. I've given that advice to
one of my best friends in the world. He has
four kids, um, eight, seven, six, and five. This is
when I gave him this advice. But he isn't me
is it given us the phone number? Um, But him
(05:17):
and his wife were not happy. They were individually and
as a partnership just not happy and it just didn't
seem And I told him, I was like, buddy, give
yourself a chance at happiness. Like, and also, these kids
are smart. Kids will figure out that that they know
that there's an energetic disconnect between mom and dad. Like
they're already eight years old. They're figuring this stuff out already. UM.
So I've given him that advice, like, I think it's
(05:39):
best for you as my friend, for you and for
her to separate and move into a different chapter of happiness.
Totally and again helping people figure out a how to
get to that next chapter and then how to thrive
in that next chapter. I'm sure we've all known somebody
who's been through a divorce and they're just still so
angry ten years later. Women particularly, just they have that
(05:59):
angry face. There's no botox that can fix it. They're
just still so pissed about their ex. I also want
people to be able to move into their next chapter.
You know some of you know some of those who
but you know, to move into that next chapter in
a healthy way. Because I also know a huge number
(06:22):
of very happily divorced people, like they seem to be
the happiest group of all the people. Yeah, I mean
you asked me if I've been married. I was married
for like ten seconds in Okay, when I was a baby.
We didn't have kids, but I have two boys with
two different dads, neither to whom I was married. But
(06:43):
you know, talk about happy divorced or happy separated. We
all had Thanksgiving together a couple of months ago. Everybody
was there, my kids, their dad's, my current boyfriend, his
ex wife was like, how the hell did I end
up here? But it was left a party. This is Thanksgiving,
this is our thanks It sounds like you just showed
up to the same restaurant by accident that my mom
(07:07):
and actually I lost my mom over the summer, which
and she always had Thanksgiving at her house in Malbou
and she always had everyone there, even though she's married
to my stepdad for like fifteen years. My dad was
there with his wife. Like we were always very inclusive
in our family. So that's how I learned. And so
when we would have Thanksgiving, it my mom's all of
the baby daddies and everyone would come. So this year
(07:28):
I had to do it at my house, and so
we had it at my house and we had all
of the people there, and look, you know, sometimes is
it trying to have these relationships and smile and maybe
fake it till you make it? Yes, however one it was.
It was a sad, kind of melancholy Thanksgiving for me
and these family members that the fathers of my kids
were there for me and we're like, we love you.
(07:49):
This is our family. We all miss Bunny. But to
all of our kids, my boyfriends included, we're so happy
that their parents were one place. I don't know how
many of you are children of divorce, but having that
Thanksgiving were like halfway through. You gotta get everything bundled
up and go to other person's house so that you
can have dessert with that family. That's a pain and
that does not make you thankful. So everybody was there.
(08:11):
We did it for the kids. I say to people
all the time, you gotta love your kids more than
you hate your ex. What a great behind. I have
that tattoo on my own. That's so weird. I have
that tattoo from you because I'm forty five almost I
guess I am forty six? Are you actually pretty sick?
(08:32):
Like the same? We thought we were the same age.
She was like, we're the same age, right, and I
was like, no, we're not. I'm older. You're just trying
to dial it back. One like it back, go back
to I'm she whispers, It's like you're there. I have
a lot of friends who are quote what I call
(08:54):
sticking it out like it's not great. They are not miserable.
There's no drama, like, there's not constant fighting. It's just
sort of dead in the water. What is your advice
to those people who have been married ten twelve fifteen
years should be two years? Do Should people stick it out?
(09:15):
How do you know when divorce is probably the better
option or it's time to like pull the trigger and
and move on. I don't know. I mean I literally,
unless you are being you know, abused, or you're with
somebody who has a serious drug and alcohol problem and
they can't no matter how much rehab, they can't get better.
I don't know. I mean, one thing is, and I
(09:37):
don't think we all readily admit this marriage is sticking
it out. I mean that's part of it. And if
it's not his ship, it's gonna be somebody else's ship.
So it's not always just like after the butterflies go
away and you know the balloom is off the roads,
you're like, I'm out that is That is a very
Hollywood way of thinking. I want the newer, better deal.
And I've seen that a lot of times men and
(09:57):
women who come in and I'm like, wait, that looks
just like your X, but like fifteen years younger. That's weird. Um.
So I think that's part of it. Sticking it out
has to do. Maybe you don't stick it out, maybe
you figure out how to grow and evolve with this person.
Rather than just cutting and running. I think that's it
right there. I think you need to continually evolve. You're
going to change. I'm going to change in the course
(10:17):
of my life. My wife is going to change in
the course of her life. But also I think people
over time can develop some sort of indifference when there
once there was an attraction. They can just develop an indifference,
and it's not staying connected enough to continue to learn
and grow and accept your changes except their changes, and
also challenge each other. There's so many resources out there, seminars, um,
(10:41):
all kinds of things, books, all kinds of things. There's
areas in your relationship you can undoubtedly grow, and maybe
there's just an indifference in people where they don't want
to put in the energy to do it, or they
don't think they can. I don't think a lot of
people in their marriage really really truthfully communicate all the
needs and desires and savings and yearnings they have for themselves,
(11:02):
for their partner, all of it. I think there's they
lack a little bit of courage there to share those
things that could really actually keep people together and like
light their marriage on floor and it's work. I mean,
it's like we all go to the gym because we
want to stay healthy, we want to stay tone. You
want to say, you may have to do that, whether
it's therapy, but mentioned you want sneakers over, your sneakers
(11:30):
haven't arrived. I love what Brooks is talking about because
I think a lot of couples in Laura, you probably
know this because people have to tell you all their tales,
is that they really let their connection go when they
let their intimacy go. Because we know tons of couples
that haven't had sex in a year, and it's like,
if you have that, one of the things is like
(11:52):
you got to get that back because that is connection,
and then the marriage can improve, as opposed to saying
like it's dead. Let's just that's true. But but there's
also people. There's something also to be said about growing apart,
and there's also something to be said about I think
sometimes people when they get into a marriage, um, they
probably you know, sacrifice certain things and maybe change who
(12:15):
they are a little bit. And then as they get
older they say, you know what, I wasn't that person,
but I was being that person. So I think it's
not always about reading books and like everything can be
saved well again, but you could go to your partner
and say, listen, these are some of the things I
really was super passionate about when we got married and
I let them go by the wayside for whatever reason,
we had to move to a different state, we had kids.
(12:36):
Whatever is he or she has to be willing to
go I I hear you. I like that. Let's work
on those things too. I mean you have to have
somebody on the other end going, yeah, I'm willing to
explore those things with you. You can't do it alone.
It takes two to tango. So if you are willing
to put in it, it's the hardest job you'll do.
They say being a parent, Being a parent and being married.
That's like you know, and you do. You really have
(12:57):
to focus on it. And if you're doing it, but
the other a person isn't getting married was to improve
your life? What the purpose was? I mean, I'm not married,
so I thought the whole purpose of getting married was
the partnership of essentially improving each other's lives. So so
(13:19):
if you're telling me that the two hardest things you're
ever gonna do are having kids and maintaining a marriage,
doesn't that sort of defeat the whole purpose of what
the marriage is supposed to be, which is to improve
each other's lives. What about what about doesn't come easy?
What about your career? Your career? Your career is like
I got to maintain I there's things it's it's not
(13:41):
just my career is an absolute joy. Yeah, yeah, but
there's there's grindwork in there, there's things that you probably
don't like. I'm happy to do all of it. And
in a marriage it's the same thing. Man have the
same Barely ever do I think to myself, oh, I
have to with my career. It almost never happens. So
it's the same. So people feel that way about in marriage,
(14:03):
I have to, Oh I have to change diaper, But
then you have a clean baby and you're so psyched.
I mean, that's just really what it is. It's the
parenthood is a better analogy to be like, it's the
hardest thing you'll do, but it's also the most rewarding.
And we could say the same thing about having a marriage.
To tell me about the joy of the diaper, there's
no joy of the diaper. There's no joy of the
(14:25):
diaper till the diaper is gone and the new diaper
is man, I was what a joy kick this diaper
and see what kin out of it? Kevin, I don't
think it's question that you brought up a while back,
was like, what point do you then decide let's get
(14:45):
divorced after you've gone through the therapy? Maybe it's five
therapists or whatever that maybe you know, like right, and again,
people come to see me all the time, and I
will never be the one to tell them that it's time.
But when they come to me and say it's time,
then what I try to make sure that they are
doing is educating, getting their education of what this is
(15:06):
going to look like, what other people have gone through,
getting a support system for yourself. So many people come
to me and they have no idea even what the
law is in this state. So right, sofa bed to
put in the apartment they're heading into, Jennifer convertibles. What
Laura thinks of nesting? Do you wait, what is that?
(15:28):
So nesting is? I mean it's people have been doing
it for a long time, but it's really become kind
of a trend in family law. It's when the kids
stay in the family residence and the parents kind of
shift out for customs. Okay, So I think it's great
if it works for the family, and I think it's
great for a short time. I don't think it usually
(15:49):
works forever. Although I read a story about a Canadian
couple actually that has been doing it for like seven
or eight years. They actually built like two apartments onto
either side of the house and they just rotate out
and go into these apartments. Yeah, Canada people, But but
I think it's really good, particularly during the process and
(16:12):
maybe for like the first you know, six to twelve
months after, because it's good for the kids and they
don't have to keep moving and packing and going. Um.
And I think if the people can get along and
have somewhere else to go either they rent one apartment
that they both go to on their off time. But
you have to be super super considerate there too, because
like if you show off, show up on your off
(16:32):
day and there's like used condoms, that's not like you can't.
There has to be some kind of right, not good
or you yes, because they're still available to you. M
here's a questions. That is what my entire gess, that's
my point of the podcast is do not use condoms.
(16:53):
Laura wasser Um here's a question for serious question. Here's
a question for you in the praternity route, I really hustle. Um,
So you make your living in the space of of
dealing with divorce. Has that in any way crept into
(17:16):
your life bled over into your personal life where you
feel cynical or negative or anything about the connotation of
marriage or are you able to compartmentalize compart mental compartmentalized,
but departmental compartmentalized. This is what I do for a living,
and I still have my beliefs and I believe in
marriage here, or this is what I do for a
(17:37):
living and I really don't believe in the sacrament of marriage.
I am a great compartmentalizer. I believe in marriage for
some people. It's not for me, Like, there's no reason
for me to get married. I'm in a very committed,
wonderful relationship right now. I'm not super down with the
State of California being able to say what happens to
(17:57):
my money or who I would owe money to if
we ever split up. But you could do could I
could do a prenup. I just you know, I don't
need it for me and for my significant other. That's
not something that we need, but I love a good wedding.
I believe in marriage. I think it's important for people. Um,
I don't believe you have to get married to have kids, obviously,
(18:18):
like people say, oh, well, I wouldn't ever want to
have kids if I wasn't. That's not for me. But again,
one thing you get good at in my job is
not judging. I don't judge other people because everybody has
their ship, everybody has stuff. You never quite know what's
in somebody's past or what's going on behind closed doors.
So you try to listen and you try to problem
solve question because you've seen so many different versions of
(18:42):
failed relationships. The second year in a relationship with someone,
and you see any similar stories happening in your relationship,
do you assume it's headed towards the direction of the
stories you've already seen and pandard No, No, I really don't.
(19:03):
I mean, like, I'm fifty one years old, I've been
in relationships for a long time. As you said, I've
seen a lot of relationships. I think everything that comes
my way personally and professionally is new. I also think
there's only a certain amount of things that can go wrong.
I mean I've now heard I thought pretty much everything.
And you can see red flags in any relationship or
(19:25):
any marriage. But like I said, if I'm watching somebody
else's play out, I never know exactly what's going on.
They don't say, well, like I won't be able to
pick you up at at yoga because such and such,
and you're thinking Mark versus Tina. No, I'm about three.
It's over now, you know what I haven't. I have
(19:47):
enough of my own relationship history that I could just go, Josh,
good for you, Laura. I like you. We're gonna get,
We're gonna have hold on, We'll get. We gotta take
a quick break and then we're gonna dive more into
Laura's story after. This is kind of a fun topic here. Okay,
(20:09):
we're back from break and the timeliest podcast we've ever done.
A happy vale Haymy just wants to ruin everybody's Valentize
Day here with the divorce podcast prior to Valentized Day.
But Amy, you had a real exciting question. You wanted
to listen to Laura's podcast. So Laura has a podcast
right now she'll tell us about and then she's coming
(20:30):
to my heart. Yeah, welcome and it'll be very similar
to her podcast now, but just broader and better. So
I learned this on your show that set and I
might be getting the stat slightly off, but it's all
whatever semantics of divorces are filed by women, and I
(20:51):
thought that it was a very interesting conversation that you
can tell us about. But you sort of tied it
to women are the ones who have this emotional can
action and when they finally just cannot take it anymore,
they will file, whereas men are have a little bit
of an easier time sort of just rolling with it,
and they maybe they golf or they go out with
their buddies and they aren't so sort of distraught over
(21:15):
the emotional breakdown of the relationship. Yeah, I mean one
of the things that I do and we talk about
on Divorce Sucks, which is the current podcast. It will
become All's Fair, same feed, um, But on my heart,
All's Fair was just a little broader and had more
to do with all different kinds of relationships. But we
talk about a lot the difference between men and women,
(21:36):
and people always assume that I represent more women. I
actually represent more men. You just I guess hear about
more of the women. But so many men will come
to me and they'll have their divorce papers that their
wife filed and serve them with and they'll be like,
I thought everything was fine, I mean what happened? Like
I mean, yeah, it wasn't great. When was the last
time you had sex with her? Yes? With her? You know,
(21:58):
and or like they just you know. I think men
and against this also is goes in line with men
that are working men. Okay, so I don't always represent
men or women, but I almost always represent the breadwinner,
the working person. The breadwinner is often the one that's like,
I don't know, it's not perfect, but it's good and
(22:18):
I love him or her and it's working. It's sometimes
the person that may not have as much going on
during the day that's going I'm not happy, and I
want to think about why I'm not happy and how
I could be happy and what would happen. And again,
no judgment. It happens that a lot of times women
are the ones to file because they are kind of
the organizer in the relationship and so there now we're
(22:39):
going to get divorced. I have had women not only
file but help their husband find their attorney and then
help their husband find and furnish their entire new home
or apartment, because that's that's what they do. Out. I
want to move on, and once I get you set up,
I can do that. Yes, Amy, I have a question
for you, because when you asked this question, it made
me think of a question. You said that, and maybe
(23:02):
it's statistically is true women are the ones that file
for divorces are filed by women. I thought about how
so I'm thinking about how you exit a relationship. Is
it also the same as how you enter a relationship?
So that maybe maybe and I'm not trying to generalize
or paint women with a broad stroke here, but do
women enter a relationship for a deeper emotional connection than men?
(23:25):
Men maybe enter for a different purpose. And then that's
also why when that falls out, the women chooses to exit.
That lands very well on me. I would say that's
a thousand percent accurate that women are kind of the
drivers of both the inn and the out because of
because the emotion plays such an important part for women
(23:48):
in my opinion, and and the definition defining it saying
like okay, so wait, are we are we monogamous? Are
we this? And we're this? And have to define it
in a way that makes more sense. And I think
the connection is so for women, and people can email
us and call us and tell us, but for women
the connection is emotional. The emotion, the sex, all of
(24:08):
it creates the relationship and the connection. So as it
starts to dissipate, they are seeing the relationship fall apart.
Whereas men, I do think, have an easier time as
the relationship is very secondary to them. I have my golf,
I have my job, I have my kids, I have
my life. And yeah, you're you're okay, Yeah, why do
(24:30):
you think that is? Why is that different? Sound like?
Is that really I've never been out with a golfer before.
They's the only date water polo players, but I've switched
it to golf because you're a cap of Okay, let
(24:51):
me get your guys. This question or not a question,
but a comment about that. I feel like girls and
women in general, when all of their friends are getting married,
they will then rush into there's like a social pressure
jump into relationship just to get married or we've definitely
I disagree with that. Oh, I think it's a thousand
percent true. I think it's like a I disagree with it.
(25:16):
I don't know anybody in my head that's going, oh
my god. And maybe I just don't know, but like,
oh my god, everybody's getting married. I need to find
somebody and just Dmitri, what do you think. I think
they're currently dating somebody and they're like, let's get married.
I think I don't get that. Oh my god, Brooks.
I have many friends that panic married. They were like
(25:40):
late twenties early because every one of their friends we
were Rick and I have all the same friends. They
all did it, and they married like a giant toolbag
because they were so desperate to get married. Because in
our society, you feel like a giant failure if you
aren't married and don't have kids. That wad say, that's
(26:02):
a very good point. It totally works on the A.
We see a trend among friends and then you see
the whole domino toppling of these of these groups of friends.
And I've seen that here in l A. I've talked
to people in New York. One of the reasons when
we created It's over Easy, which is this online website
where you can get divorced for dollars much less than
(26:24):
what I would charge you at my office. But the
main point of it was to also have a community.
So you join that community. There's a whole bunch of contents.
You can read about it, reach out to other people,
listen to podcasts about it, have you know, group chat
so that you don't have to then convince your friends
that you're having dinner with tomorrow night. To get divorced.
You can talk to somebody across the country that's getting divorce,
(26:44):
you know. And and also a ton of resources so
that you can either find mental health, find childcare, find
insurance if it's not available through your employer, find dating apps,
and also find you know, you could see your engagement
rank online. It's perfect. You're getting divorced. Oh hey, what's
going on? Do you like? What do you think of
(27:08):
a mediator? I love mediators. I would say that at
our firm, probably of our divorces are mediated because it's
just prohibitively expensive, both financially and emotionally to have a
trial and to go to court, and our courts are
so clogged. So find a mediator, which is a neutral
party that has some experience. We use a lot of
(27:28):
retired judges. I now do some mediation too, rarely where
I'm the mediator and I represent and I work with
both parties to do it because I've been doing this
long enough and on top don't have to So you
could and you could both have consulting attorneys. But it
still makes it easier than you don't have to run
to court and get like a slamming of the gavel verdict.
(27:49):
You can have somebody say, you know what, this is
what will probably happen. How do you feel about this?
And it's really helpful because the other thing is, especially
in a divorce, it's like no other kind of lawsuit.
If you're in a landlord tenant lawsuit or fender bender,
you want to get the other person. You want to win,
and you want to smash them whatever. We can't really
do that in a divorce. You might feel like you
want to. But one, this is your money. There's a
(28:11):
pot of your money. It belongs to both of you.
The more you spend and go out of the pot
to the lawyers and the forensic accounts and the exports,
the less you have for you and your kids. But two,
and most importantly, after the fender bender, you're never gonna
see that person again. After the divorce, you're gonna see
the person at the parent teacher conference, You're gonna see
the person at the birthday party. You got to figure
out a way get along with them Thanksgiving if you're
(28:33):
in my family. Yeah, and getting wassard can be expensive,
So it's probably Do people not get divorced because of
money where they stay together because they are like cheaper
to keeper. Having ever heard that, wait to have this
great joke, what what's what is the Barbie Barbie the
Barbie dream house. Barbie Dreamhouse comes with all the accessories,
(28:57):
the dream house and the clothing and the wardrobe and
the RV. And Ken just comes by himself because she
took everything, or some joke about that. He certainly does.
You can doesn't have anything, Gavin, do you feel sort
of like I do about marriage because we've seen divorce
(29:17):
and we don't want that, So it's like, why I'm
not I'm not afraid of marriage at all. I'm just
afraid of divorce. I think that. And it wouldn't it
wouldn't be so terrifying if divorce wasn't incentivized the reality
is that divorce has become completely incentivized in Western civilization period,
and and it's just it's financially bizarre that you would
(29:40):
reward a failing system. And you think that we reward
it because she gets half your money doesn't have to
be she in his case, Well, you know, it's bizarre
to me that we we would reward failure. In almost
no other structure do we reward failure. So why would
(30:01):
you reward failure to Okay, I take issue with two things.
One I don't necessarily think it's a failure, but let's
leave that alone. Why who's being rewarded? I'm saying, if
there's a higher earner and a low earner and the
relationship doesn't work, Okay, So here's how maybe change your
way of thinking a little bit. And I'm not saying
I agree with the law. But the law is when
(30:21):
you get married, the high earner is earning money from
community efforts, which means it's already half her money in
this hypothetical situation. So we're not rewarding her. She already
owns half of it. I'm not saying taking her half
and leaving the party. Right. Okay, here's a question. So
I don't know all about the law here, you do, right,
(30:43):
I'm just looking at it from this distant, distant window
right of people that I know who have had divorces
and it's been very costly. Okay, people who maybe have
had been married for five years, they had a kid,
and and the sort of the the the X turns
(31:04):
into an absolute terror and greedy and absolutely torments the
the X waiving the power, having the power of waiving
the kids in front of them, and really weaponizing things
that shouldn't be weaponized. Right, So have you seen that?
(31:26):
And That's what I'm talking about. So we're rewarding people
for walking away from the system that was supposed to
be helping each other. And you may think I'm wrong
saying that, but I've seen I've seen that with people
that I knew, friends of mine, who I felt like
they were just getting raped over the coals, you know,
(31:48):
I felt like they got maybe someone took advantage of
their financial situation. They were, you know, they were lonely,
essentially working their ass off and providing, you know, essentially
living a good life and on someone that wanted to
do that with them and got used for that essentially. Yes,
and again I will say to people that kind of
(32:08):
hypothetical that you explain, I'll say you created this monster.
You took her in, you started providing her with this lifestyle.
In the situation you described, he'd only be paying spousal
support for about two and a half years, half the
length of the marriage. I know it's not nothing, and
he's likely not paying much more than what he was
paying for her to have that lifestyle. Anyway, It's just that, Yeah,
(32:29):
it hurts when you're writing a check and it's going away.
It's different if you're writing a check and it's all
happening under your same roof. If you're all in Cabo,
you don't quite mind so much. Then if she's in
Cabo with your kids and you're paying for it, I
see more. Do you see more and more women who
are having to pay spousal support, Yes, spousal and child.
And again they come in and they're like, what do
(32:50):
you mean this guy's been sitting on the couch for
fifteen years. I want this albatross off from around my neck.
I'm the woman. I shouldn't you know? And I said, well,
the laws underblind, honey, you And then that's how I
feel it should be. Totally genderblind. It is, and it
is much more in California now with regard to custody
too of kids. I mean people come in and say, well,
I'm the mom, I should have the kids, and I'm like, yeah,
(33:12):
not so much. The kids have a right to have
access I think equally, if possible, based on time sharing
careers in location with both of their parents. I love
your approach. Just listening to you to I love your
approach to a very sensitive and tough topic. I have
(33:35):
two really quick topics before we go. One is, and
I think we kind of addressed it. Is conscious uncoupling
much better than unconscious coupling, which sometimes happens like right
after the separation. Okay, dive into that. Dive into the
term of consciously. Don't think Chris Martin made it famous,
but I've interviewed the woman who wrote the book about
(33:57):
conscious like and yeah, and I think it's actually quite
um if you really dig into it and read the book.
It's basically what Laura was talking about, how everyone's at
Thanksgiving the goal is to make it. I don't know
you can explain that. I'm sure you have couples that
attempt it, but it's um. Keeping the relationship good for
(34:20):
you and that person and children if they're involved, because
it shouldn't have to be so ugly. But basically it's
the marriage didn't fail, it worked, and now you're going
to move on. You're changing how your family functions. You're
so a family, but you're changing the way you approach
your familial relationship. It's what you said before, do you
(34:42):
hate your X more than you love your kids? I
would hope not, So there's no reason to not try
and make that situation. I think conscious uncoupling is what
I try to do now in all relationships, not just marriage,
because it's like, why should it be so ugly when
maybe it was beautiful? And then like, for a variety
of reasons, some beyond my control, it doesn't work out.
(35:06):
Everybody it's like this is but I really, I mean
if you, if I say to people all the time
you're going through this, think about something that you really
used to love about this person. He was in the
delivery room with you, holding your hand while you were
pushing out those babies. And there has to be something
(35:27):
that got you into this relationship, made you fall in love.
Tap into that. Because the other thing is if you're
so consciously hating on your ex and you have kids,
that same energy you were talking about before books that's
in the house carries through and your kids go to wait,
I'm half that guy or gal and he or she
so hates that guy or gal. How do they feel
(35:49):
about me? Parents should not bring the children into the
argument or even have the argument in front of the kids.
They feel it, they hear it there. What do you say? Kids?
Turn around? We go outside. We have someone that works
with us. She's twenty four years old, and her parents
drag her into all their arguments. Lam. I can't imagine
(36:15):
what it's like. My parents have been married. Now we
celebrate their forty five wedding anniversary this past summer. My
wife's parents are divorced. I can't imagine what it would
be like as a child to know your parents being
divorced party divorce. When I was young, I was like
four when they split up. Um, and I was the
last of five kids. But I'll say this, times have
(36:35):
changed in the sense that when I was little, I
used to think and maybe I've just mat sure. When
I was little, because of that, my parents did not
get along for so many years. It was brutal. Um.
So when I was little, I used to think, that's
the worst thing that can happen to to a marriage
is or to to a couple is the divorce. And
now that I'm older and I see how it affects
kids and all this type of stuff, and I lived
through it, I think the worst thing that can happen
(36:57):
is to have a loveless marriage and and fight and
and stay together. But so I don't think divorce is
the worst thing anymore. But I think to be fighting
like that the way I grew up, it was very difficult.
Can we quickly touch on the gray divorce? Gavorce is
also speaking of we're talking about anybody over saying, anyone
over fifty that gets divorce is the great divorce, and
(37:19):
it's more and more common, right, and those are now
the people that I graduated place school with. But the
great divorce again, it's either people who have empty nesters,
their kids have grown up and left, or I think
one of the statistics is second marriages haven't even higher divorce,
right than like, if you've already been through it once,
(37:39):
you're like Alan tipper Goore, like they were married for
like fifty years and they were pretty old, and then
suddenly they get divorced and you're like why bother. Why why?
But why why do you ask that question? Because you're saying,
what their happiness the remaining years of their life doesn't matter. Well,
I'm stop why I'm bringing it up. I think people
are living longer and so they're they're more willing to
(38:03):
get divorced in their sixties than they used to be.
I mean, I've had people come to me. Last year
in two thousand nineteen, I actually had three divorces where
the parties were eighty or older. And that's when I
was truly like, I was like my father and actually
there is there is there advice here you go. The
(38:23):
fight was over, the settlement was about who gets to
keep the medicine cabin and there are there's some laws though.
If you die when your spouse when you're married, versus
dying when you're divorced, there's all kinds of tax benefits.
I'm like, you're weighted out, you know, so, I mean,
but but yes, it is because people are saying, I
only have this much time left and I really want
(38:45):
to be happy. I'm not going to do this for
one more year. I mean, it is true when humans
only lived until like thirty, it was a lot easier
to stay married for your whole life. My grandma did that.
My grandma got divorced and ended up dating a new
per person, actually the first person she ever dated in
high school and was amazingly, amazingly, she was so happy.
(39:09):
He ended up passing, but she was so happy during
those years of her life. I have a question. I
think that's that's really cool. I do love those stories too,
when when you realize that somebody from your past, but
that's pretty exciting. I have a question, though, from your observations, Laura,
is there if you were to give just straight up advice,
do you think there's an age that's too early to
get married? Great one. It's hard to say because it
(39:32):
depends on the people. I mean, I know there's some
year old out there, um, and then there's some super
immature for two year olds out there. But how are you,
Laura somehow April seventeen, She's like, they're usually rock stars. Laura,
(40:00):
here's a because I I really listening to you talk.
I really respect and admire your approach to this topic.
You aren't in it just to like make money and
get people on their way, like you actually care about
all parties involved. You look at all scenarios and you
actually care about people's happiness. So I want to commend
you for all of that and how you handle yourself
personally professionally. It's amazing. Now that being said, because I
(40:24):
gave you that dandy of a compliment, I get to
ask you this question. What is the ugliest divorce you
have ever seen? You don't have to name names, but
what is just ugly to them? Because it was probably
really nice for you. What is the one where you
just have a story? This all I did not represent
(40:46):
either of the course you know what it is. And
these are these are the ones. There's there's two to
three that like really hit in my head. They all
involve child custody. The child custodies are the soul crushers.
And in all honesty, I would trade my house if
I didn't have to go through those cases, because you do,
(41:06):
you get very tight with people and you take on
a lot of their angst and you see the true
evil in people when they are fighting about their children.
And again if there's allegations of abuse or somebody wants
to move across the country. So you can't just do
(41:26):
like two days, two days, three days of shared custody
because they're living a few blocks apart. And it's those
kind of things where you just it is just it
it takes so much out of you. And those are
the ugliest there by far. I mean, there's funny things
where you know, somebody throws a stiletto healing it actually
gets stuck in the door. Or this person wanted to
(41:47):
trade an STD test for a get, which is a
Jewish divorce. Like I'm like, that's a weird you know
combo but oka or poisoning of you know, cats so
that there's like diarrhea all over the white condom in
him when they gave a cat. That stuff is funny,
and that's the stuff that I'm like, made that at
fifty dollars reading that letter. Okay, fine, the kid ones
(42:08):
are the ones that just are so so sad. And
that's why I do it the way you said Brooks,
try to approach it in a way that I really
want to change the way people look at divorce and
try to make it better. And I highly recommend Laura's podcast.
I've obviously never been married or divorced, and I I'm
addicted to the podcast. I think it's really good relationship
(42:32):
the podcast is called Divorces, called divorce Sucks, but by
the time this air is it's going to be called
All's Fair, like All's fair in love and war. It's
on my heart. Check us out. I think Amy is
a bigger fan of divorce and marriage, Like, if you
could just get divorced, you would do that. I think
divorce sucks. But I'm I actually I'm not. You know,
(42:54):
you know what we called it, Gavin a good time. Yeah,
so here, here's what it is. You go in dirty,
but you come out clean. And it's like it's like
when a product overtakes an entire category. So instead of
saying search it, you say, why don't you just google it?
Or you're like, can I have a Kleenix? Like Kleenix
is the brand name, it's actually a tissue, you know,
(43:18):
it could be you could be yeah, just wasper. Just
get a wasser. Honey, here's the thing. I think we
need to get divorce. Maybe we can. That will change
the whole image of it. That could be your leg meant,
this girl I just got was actually what people just like,
(43:39):
I've been through two wassers already. I don't think I
can do it. Hey, I'm dating this girl. She you know,
she's wassered but she hadn't that kid. But she's great.
Oh what a dubious honor you are so thank you
(44:01):
for having to cal where like a couple. We're not
because she went to golf instead of water polo. I
love my golfer. He is so great. He's gone for
eight hours day exactly. Um, that's why we're so happy.
So where can people get in touch with you? Laura?
So the the old the podcast now as we record
(44:22):
this called Divorce Sucks. The new ones called All's Fair
word anywhere you get your your podcast. But where case people,
people besides my wife get in touch with you except
your wife can't get in touch with me. On it's
over easy dot com. We have our Instagram which is
at It's over easy and uh Laura Wasser Official is
another Instagram. And we are also launching a post divorce
(44:47):
It's called Next Chapter series. Four people that have been
divorced and they kind of want some tips on how
to move forward in their lives. So all those fun
things Valentine's Day. Valentine's Day, So all of you listeners,
there you go. There's a gift to you from our
generous producer Ab Sugar shows how I feel about Valentine's
(45:09):
She's the grin of Valentin, poor boyfriend. But in real
that was a real discussion Rose dinner. That's what we're
looking for, Um, that was that was actually a really
interesting discussion though, like because it is such commonplace. I
know many people, many people and have it in my family,
(45:31):
people that are divorced. Um, And I never I never
looked at it the way you looked at it. I
do look at it that I want people to live
happy and fulfilled lives. I want that for every single soul.
But the way you look at the situation with such
a sensitivity and a kindness and authenticity and caring for
the people involved, I just I really commend you, Laura.
Thank you very much. I learned a lot here today.
(45:52):
Thank you. I want to see the still. Thank you
very much for coming on. We appreciate you. Look her up,
look up her podcast or new podcast, and I hope
you just love the I heart team, our producers here, Tory,
Danielle Amy, everybody involved with our our show East and
our engineer. Everybody is just amazing. And I hope you
(46:13):
love the new journey. UM and I'm really happy for you,
but I hope I'm never on your podcast enough. Thank
you very much, Thank you guys, Thank you everybody for
listen until next week. Take care of one another, love
one another, and we will see you right back here
for another episode of How Men Think
This is how men think with broths Light and Gavin
to grab and I heard radio podcast. Okay, so we
are going to intro our guest for today's discussion. And Amy,
you are sitting there just gloating at because I feel
it's perfect timing with Valentine's Day coming, with Valentine's coming
in the head. No, but I will. I will say this.
(00:22):
I'm not planning on it any by any means, but
if I ever get divorced, it's gonna be before Valentine's
Day because I hate Valentine's Dmitri just totally like, explain
what we're doing. So we're talking about we're talking about Valentine.
Way to steal the punchline, dude, So I will steal.
I got So that is? That is Amy wanted to
(00:43):
play some sick joke, could do a divorce conversation prior
to Valentine's Day, but it turns out there's an actual
real connection at this time of year for that. Um. So, Amy,
do you want to introduce our steamed guests. We're very
lucky to have her here we are today, So and Laura,
Laura Wasser is here. And so when I introduced Laura
(01:07):
to you, guys, I said, she is literally and I
stand by this. Probably the most well known and prolific
is that the right word divorce attorney in the country, dubious.
So I know when I wrote notes, I said, your
name is synonymous with divorce. How does that feel? Um? Yeah,
(01:31):
it's uh, it feels great. You know when you think
of a divorce and misery, you think Laura Wasser. People
are gonna say, I'm getting a Wasser getting a Walker.
Uh No, I My My whole jam is just trying
to educate people about not only divorce, but about marriage
and relationships and how with better communication and compassion, we
(01:55):
can handle ourselves better in all relationships, but certainly if
we're getting divorce, and particularly if we're getting divorced from
someone with whom we have kids and are going to
have to co parent. Okay, So I'll give you guys
a little background for our listeners on Laura. So she's
an attorney, she's an author, entrepreneur, and a family law expert.
She's represented a huge list of celebrities Kim Kardashi and
(02:17):
Bron Reynolds and affairs Jimmy Levine, Maria Shriver down the row. Um,
But She maintains that divorce is the great equalizer in
that it terrifies everybody, everybody. So she's made it her
mission to change us by creating It's Over Easy, which
gives divorcing couples an accessible and affordable resource to dissolve
(02:37):
their marriage in all fifty states. You're an author of
New York best Time seller like high five to that.
That's amazing. I wish I could write that under my name.
I just want to write Brooks like New York Best
Brooks like mediocre podcast. You're a mediocre podcast manager. Want
(03:00):
to make a I want to make a quick note.
It's Jimmy Iovine, but I have I have a friend
at school, his buddy of mine, and his kids are
in his Jimmy Levine, so I don't want him to listen,
and people think he's getting um So anyway, one of
the most qualified people in this state. And Amy, why
does this, why does this conversation for you have never
(03:21):
been married? Why does this excite you so much? Well,
it doesn't excite me, like Christmas. But here's what. You
have to take your coat off because you said you're
just getting sweaty. Because I think relationships fascinate me, and
I think that look, fifty of marriages do not work.
So I think if we start talking about divorce, we
may make it easier for people that are going through it,
(03:45):
and we also could prevent it. I think Laura has
a lot of great input. We just had an amazing
conversation for the last half an hour getting ready for
the show about it's not about the divorce, it's about
the relationship. I'll let Laura speak on that, but I
would love to ask you do you think marriage works.
I think marriage works for some people. I think if
you are a couple that has found your soul mate
(04:08):
or found even if it's not your soul mate, but
it's your groove, your best friend, somebody who want to
be with God bless I mean, I'm not I don't
want people to get divorced. But I also think, realistically speaking,
in there are people who have been married for a
certain period of time and for whatever reason, have grown apart.
Things have separated them in some way, and I think
(04:28):
it's healthier for individuals and kids to see too happy
parents that may not be living under the same roof
than miserable people. But being able to say but we've
been married for fifty years. So I think if it's
not working and we can't figure out a way to
make it work, I want it to be easier for people,
at least financially and um legally to split up. Then
(04:52):
I think they can really focus on the heart and
the mind and emotionally doing things in a kind of
a mindful, cost effective way. I've given that advice to
one of my best friends in the world. He has
four kids, um, eight, seven, six, and five. This is
when I gave him this advice. But he isn't me
is it given us the phone number? Um, But him
(05:17):
and his wife were not happy. They were individually and
as a partnership just not happy and it just didn't
seem And I told him, I was like, buddy, give
yourself a chance at happiness. Like, and also, these kids
are smart. Kids will figure out that that they know
that there's an energetic disconnect between mom and dad. Like
they're already eight years old. They're figuring this stuff out already. UM.
So I've given him that advice, like, I think it's
(05:39):
best for you as my friend, for you and for
her to separate and move into a different chapter of happiness.
Totally and again helping people figure out a how to
get to that next chapter and then how to thrive
in that next chapter. I'm sure we've all known somebody
who's been through a divorce and they're just still so
angry ten years later. Women particularly, just they have that
(05:59):
angry face. There's no botox that can fix it. They're
just still so pissed about their ex. I also want
people to be able to move into their next chapter.
You know some of you know some of those who
but you know, to move into that next chapter in
a healthy way. Because I also know a huge number
(06:22):
of very happily divorced people, like they seem to be
the happiest group of all the people. Yeah, I mean
you asked me if I've been married. I was married
for like ten seconds in Okay, when I was a baby.
We didn't have kids, but I have two boys with
two different dads, neither to whom I was married. But
(06:43):
you know, talk about happy divorced or happy separated. We
all had Thanksgiving together a couple of months ago. Everybody
was there, my kids, their dad's, my current boyfriend, his
ex wife was like, how the hell did I end
up here? But it was left a party. This is Thanksgiving,
this is our thanks It sounds like you just showed
up to the same restaurant by accident that my mom
(07:07):
and actually I lost my mom over the summer, which
and she always had Thanksgiving at her house in Malbou
and she always had everyone there, even though she's married
to my stepdad for like fifteen years. My dad was
there with his wife. Like we were always very inclusive
in our family. So that's how I learned. And so
when we would have Thanksgiving, it my mom's all of
the baby daddies and everyone would come. So this year
(07:28):
I had to do it at my house, and so
we had it at my house and we had all
of the people there, and look, you know, sometimes is
it trying to have these relationships and smile and maybe
fake it till you make it? Yes, however one it was.
It was a sad, kind of melancholy Thanksgiving for me
and these family members that the fathers of my kids
were there for me and we're like, we love you.
(07:49):
This is our family. We all miss Bunny. But to
all of our kids, my boyfriends included, we're so happy
that their parents were one place. I don't know how
many of you are children of divorce, but having that
Thanksgiving were like halfway through. You gotta get everything bundled
up and go to other person's house so that you
can have dessert with that family. That's a pain and
that does not make you thankful. So everybody was there.
(08:11):
We did it for the kids. I say to people
all the time, you gotta love your kids more than
you hate your ex. What a great behind. I have
that tattoo on my own. That's so weird. I have
that tattoo from you because I'm forty five almost I
guess I am forty six? Are you actually pretty sick?
(08:32):
Like the same? We thought we were the same age.
She was like, we're the same age, right, and I
was like, no, we're not. I'm older. You're just trying
to dial it back. One like it back, go back
to I'm she whispers, It's like you're there. I have
a lot of friends who are quote what I call
(08:54):
sticking it out like it's not great. They are not miserable.
There's no drama, like, there's not constant fighting. It's just
sort of dead in the water. What is your advice
to those people who have been married ten twelve fifteen
years should be two years? Do Should people stick it out?
(09:15):
How do you know when divorce is probably the better
option or it's time to like pull the trigger and
and move on. I don't know. I mean I literally,
unless you are being you know, abused, or you're with
somebody who has a serious drug and alcohol problem and
they can't no matter how much rehab, they can't get better.
I don't know. I mean, one thing is, and I
(09:37):
don't think we all readily admit this marriage is sticking
it out. I mean that's part of it. And if
it's not his ship, it's gonna be somebody else's ship.
So it's not always just like after the butterflies go
away and you know the balloom is off the roads,
you're like, I'm out that is That is a very
Hollywood way of thinking. I want the newer, better deal.
And I've seen that a lot of times men and
(09:57):
women who come in and I'm like, wait, that looks
just like your X, but like fifteen years younger. That's weird. Um.
So I think that's part of it. Sticking it out
has to do. Maybe you don't stick it out, maybe
you figure out how to grow and evolve with this person.
Rather than just cutting and running. I think that's it
right there. I think you need to continually evolve. You're
going to change. I'm going to change in the course
(10:17):
of my life. My wife is going to change in
the course of her life. But also I think people
over time can develop some sort of indifference when there
once there was an attraction. They can just develop an indifference,
and it's not staying connected enough to continue to learn
and grow and accept your changes except their changes, and
also challenge each other. There's so many resources out there, seminars, um,
(10:41):
all kinds of things, books, all kinds of things. There's
areas in your relationship you can undoubtedly grow, and maybe
there's just an indifference in people where they don't want
to put in the energy to do it, or they
don't think they can. I don't think a lot of
people in their marriage really really truthfully communicate all the
needs and desires and savings and yearnings they have for themselves,
(11:02):
for their partner, all of it. I think there's they
lack a little bit of courage there to share those
things that could really actually keep people together and like
light their marriage on floor and it's work. I mean,
it's like we all go to the gym because we
want to stay healthy, we want to stay tone. You
want to say, you may have to do that, whether
it's therapy, but mentioned you want sneakers over, your sneakers
(11:30):
haven't arrived. I love what Brooks is talking about because
I think a lot of couples in Laura, you probably
know this because people have to tell you all their tales,
is that they really let their connection go when they
let their intimacy go. Because we know tons of couples
that haven't had sex in a year, and it's like,
if you have that, one of the things is like
(11:52):
you got to get that back because that is connection,
and then the marriage can improve, as opposed to saying
like it's dead. Let's just that's true. But but there's
also people. There's something also to be said about growing apart,
and there's also something to be said about I think
sometimes people when they get into a marriage, um, they
probably you know, sacrifice certain things and maybe change who
(12:15):
they are a little bit. And then as they get
older they say, you know what, I wasn't that person,
but I was being that person. So I think it's
not always about reading books and like everything can be
saved well again, but you could go to your partner
and say, listen, these are some of the things I
really was super passionate about when we got married and
I let them go by the wayside for whatever reason,
we had to move to a different state, we had kids.
(12:36):
Whatever is he or she has to be willing to
go I I hear you. I like that. Let's work
on those things too. I mean you have to have
somebody on the other end going, yeah, I'm willing to
explore those things with you. You can't do it alone.
It takes two to tango. So if you are willing
to put in it, it's the hardest job you'll do.
They say being a parent, Being a parent and being married.
That's like you know, and you do. You really have
(12:57):
to focus on it. And if you're doing it, but
the other a person isn't getting married was to improve
your life? What the purpose was? I mean, I'm not married,
so I thought the whole purpose of getting married was
the partnership of essentially improving each other's lives. So so
(13:19):
if you're telling me that the two hardest things you're
ever gonna do are having kids and maintaining a marriage,
doesn't that sort of defeat the whole purpose of what
the marriage is supposed to be, which is to improve
each other's lives. What about what about doesn't come easy?
What about your career? Your career? Your career is like
I got to maintain I there's things it's it's not
(13:41):
just my career is an absolute joy. Yeah, yeah, but
there's there's grindwork in there, there's things that you probably
don't like. I'm happy to do all of it. And
in a marriage it's the same thing. Man have the
same Barely ever do I think to myself, oh, I
have to with my career. It almost never happens. So
it's the same. So people feel that way about in marriage,
(14:03):
I have to, Oh I have to change diaper, But
then you have a clean baby and you're so psyched.
I mean, that's just really what it is. It's the
parenthood is a better analogy to be like, it's the
hardest thing you'll do, but it's also the most rewarding.
And we could say the same thing about having a marriage.
To tell me about the joy of the diaper, there's
no joy of the diaper. There's no joy of the
(14:25):
diaper till the diaper is gone and the new diaper
is man, I was what a joy kick this diaper
and see what kin out of it? Kevin, I don't
think it's question that you brought up a while back,
was like, what point do you then decide let's get
(14:45):
divorced after you've gone through the therapy? Maybe it's five
therapists or whatever that maybe you know, like right, and again,
people come to see me all the time, and I
will never be the one to tell them that it's time.
But when they come to me and say it's time,
then what I try to make sure that they are
doing is educating, getting their education of what this is
(15:06):
going to look like, what other people have gone through,
getting a support system for yourself. So many people come
to me and they have no idea even what the
law is in this state. So right, sofa bed to
put in the apartment they're heading into, Jennifer convertibles. What
Laura thinks of nesting? Do you wait, what is that?
(15:28):
So nesting is? I mean it's people have been doing
it for a long time, but it's really become kind
of a trend in family law. It's when the kids
stay in the family residence and the parents kind of
shift out for customs. Okay, So I think it's great
if it works for the family, and I think it's
great for a short time. I don't think it usually
(15:49):
works forever. Although I read a story about a Canadian
couple actually that has been doing it for like seven
or eight years. They actually built like two apartments onto
either side of the house and they just rotate out
and go into these apartments. Yeah, Canada people, But but
I think it's really good, particularly during the process and
(16:12):
maybe for like the first you know, six to twelve
months after, because it's good for the kids and they
don't have to keep moving and packing and going. Um.
And I think if the people can get along and
have somewhere else to go either they rent one apartment
that they both go to on their off time. But
you have to be super super considerate there too, because
like if you show off, show up on your off
(16:32):
day and there's like used condoms, that's not like you can't.
There has to be some kind of right, not good
or you yes, because they're still available to you. M
here's a questions. That is what my entire gess, that's
my point of the podcast is do not use condoms.
(16:53):
Laura wasser Um here's a question for serious question. Here's
a question for you in the praternity route, I really hustle. Um,
So you make your living in the space of of
dealing with divorce. Has that in any way crept into
(17:16):
your life bled over into your personal life where you
feel cynical or negative or anything about the connotation of
marriage or are you able to compartmentalize compart mental compartmentalized,
but departmental compartmentalized. This is what I do for a living,
and I still have my beliefs and I believe in
marriage here, or this is what I do for a
(17:37):
living and I really don't believe in the sacrament of marriage.
I am a great compartmentalizer. I believe in marriage for
some people. It's not for me, Like, there's no reason
for me to get married. I'm in a very committed,
wonderful relationship right now. I'm not super down with the
State of California being able to say what happens to
(17:57):
my money or who I would owe money to if
we ever split up. But you could do could I
could do a prenup. I just you know, I don't
need it for me and for my significant other. That's
not something that we need, but I love a good wedding.
I believe in marriage. I think it's important for people. Um,
I don't believe you have to get married to have kids, obviously,
(18:18):
like people say, oh, well, I wouldn't ever want to
have kids if I wasn't. That's not for me. But again,
one thing you get good at in my job is
not judging. I don't judge other people because everybody has
their ship, everybody has stuff. You never quite know what's
in somebody's past or what's going on behind closed doors.
So you try to listen and you try to problem
solve question because you've seen so many different versions of
(18:42):
failed relationships. The second year in a relationship with someone,
and you see any similar stories happening in your relationship,
do you assume it's headed towards the direction of the
stories you've already seen and pandard No, No, I really don't.
(19:03):
I mean, like, I'm fifty one years old, I've been
in relationships for a long time. As you said, I've
seen a lot of relationships. I think everything that comes
my way personally and professionally is new. I also think
there's only a certain amount of things that can go wrong.
I mean I've now heard I thought pretty much everything.
And you can see red flags in any relationship or
(19:25):
any marriage. But like I said, if I'm watching somebody
else's play out, I never know exactly what's going on.
They don't say, well, like I won't be able to
pick you up at at yoga because such and such,
and you're thinking Mark versus Tina. No, I'm about three.
It's over now, you know what I haven't. I have
(19:47):
enough of my own relationship history that I could just go, Josh,
good for you, Laura. I like you. We're gonna get,
We're gonna have hold on, We'll get. We gotta take
a quick break and then we're gonna dive more into
Laura's story after. This is kind of a fun topic here. Okay,
(20:09):
we're back from break and the timeliest podcast we've ever done.
A happy vale Haymy just wants to ruin everybody's Valentize
Day here with the divorce podcast prior to Valentized Day.
But Amy, you had a real exciting question. You wanted
to listen to Laura's podcast. So Laura has a podcast
right now she'll tell us about and then she's coming
(20:30):
to my heart. Yeah, welcome and it'll be very similar
to her podcast now, but just broader and better. So
I learned this on your show that set and I
might be getting the stat slightly off, but it's all
whatever semantics of divorces are filed by women, and I
(20:51):
thought that it was a very interesting conversation that you
can tell us about. But you sort of tied it
to women are the ones who have this emotional can
action and when they finally just cannot take it anymore,
they will file, whereas men are have a little bit
of an easier time sort of just rolling with it,
and they maybe they golf or they go out with
their buddies and they aren't so sort of distraught over
(21:15):
the emotional breakdown of the relationship. Yeah, I mean one
of the things that I do and we talk about
on Divorce Sucks, which is the current podcast. It will
become All's Fair, same feed, um, But on my heart,
All's Fair was just a little broader and had more
to do with all different kinds of relationships. But we
talk about a lot the difference between men and women,
(21:36):
and people always assume that I represent more women. I
actually represent more men. You just I guess hear about
more of the women. But so many men will come
to me and they'll have their divorce papers that their
wife filed and serve them with and they'll be like,
I thought everything was fine, I mean what happened? Like
I mean, yeah, it wasn't great. When was the last
time you had sex with her? Yes? With her? You know,
(21:58):
and or like they just you know. I think men
and against this also is goes in line with men
that are working men. Okay, so I don't always represent
men or women, but I almost always represent the breadwinner,
the working person. The breadwinner is often the one that's like,
I don't know, it's not perfect, but it's good and
(22:18):
I love him or her and it's working. It's sometimes
the person that may not have as much going on
during the day that's going I'm not happy, and I
want to think about why I'm not happy and how
I could be happy and what would happen. And again,
no judgment. It happens that a lot of times women
are the ones to file because they are kind of
the organizer in the relationship and so there now we're
(22:39):
going to get divorced. I have had women not only
file but help their husband find their attorney and then
help their husband find and furnish their entire new home
or apartment, because that's that's what they do. Out. I
want to move on, and once I get you set up,
I can do that. Yes, Amy, I have a question
for you, because when you asked this question, it made
me think of a question. You said that, and maybe
(23:02):
it's statistically is true women are the ones that file
for divorces are filed by women. I thought about how
so I'm thinking about how you exit a relationship. Is
it also the same as how you enter a relationship?
So that maybe maybe and I'm not trying to generalize
or paint women with a broad stroke here, but do
women enter a relationship for a deeper emotional connection than men?
(23:25):
Men maybe enter for a different purpose. And then that's
also why when that falls out, the women chooses to exit.
That lands very well on me. I would say that's
a thousand percent accurate that women are kind of the
drivers of both the inn and the out because of
because the emotion plays such an important part for women
(23:48):
in my opinion, and and the definition defining it saying
like okay, so wait, are we are we monogamous? Are
we this? And we're this? And have to define it
in a way that makes more sense. And I think
the connection is so for women, and people can email
us and call us and tell us, but for women
the connection is emotional. The emotion, the sex, all of
(24:08):
it creates the relationship and the connection. So as it
starts to dissipate, they are seeing the relationship fall apart.
Whereas men, I do think, have an easier time as
the relationship is very secondary to them. I have my golf,
I have my job, I have my kids, I have
my life. And yeah, you're you're okay, Yeah, why do
(24:30):
you think that is? Why is that different? Sound like?
Is that really I've never been out with a golfer before.
They's the only date water polo players, but I've switched
it to golf because you're a cap of Okay, let
(24:51):
me get your guys. This question or not a question,
but a comment about that. I feel like girls and
women in general, when all of their friends are getting married,
they will then rush into there's like a social pressure
jump into relationship just to get married or we've definitely
I disagree with that. Oh, I think it's a thousand
percent true. I think it's like a I disagree with it.
(25:16):
I don't know anybody in my head that's going, oh
my god. And maybe I just don't know, but like,
oh my god, everybody's getting married. I need to find
somebody and just Dmitri, what do you think. I think
they're currently dating somebody and they're like, let's get married.
I think I don't get that. Oh my god, Brooks.
I have many friends that panic married. They were like
(25:40):
late twenties early because every one of their friends we
were Rick and I have all the same friends. They
all did it, and they married like a giant toolbag
because they were so desperate to get married. Because in
our society, you feel like a giant failure if you
aren't married and don't have kids. That wad say, that's
(26:02):
a very good point. It totally works on the A.
We see a trend among friends and then you see
the whole domino toppling of these of these groups of friends.
And I've seen that here in l A. I've talked
to people in New York. One of the reasons when
we created It's over Easy, which is this online website
where you can get divorced for dollars much less than
(26:24):
what I would charge you at my office. But the
main point of it was to also have a community.
So you join that community. There's a whole bunch of contents.
You can read about it, reach out to other people,
listen to podcasts about it, have you know, group chat
so that you don't have to then convince your friends
that you're having dinner with tomorrow night. To get divorced.
You can talk to somebody across the country that's getting divorce,
(26:44):
you know. And and also a ton of resources so
that you can either find mental health, find childcare, find
insurance if it's not available through your employer, find dating apps,
and also find you know, you could see your engagement
rank online. It's perfect. You're getting divorced. Oh hey, what's
going on? Do you like? What do you think of
(27:08):
a mediator? I love mediators. I would say that at
our firm, probably of our divorces are mediated because it's
just prohibitively expensive, both financially and emotionally to have a
trial and to go to court, and our courts are
so clogged. So find a mediator, which is a neutral
party that has some experience. We use a lot of
(27:28):
retired judges. I now do some mediation too, rarely where
I'm the mediator and I represent and I work with
both parties to do it because I've been doing this
long enough and on top don't have to So you
could and you could both have consulting attorneys. But it
still makes it easier than you don't have to run
to court and get like a slamming of the gavel verdict.
(27:49):
You can have somebody say, you know what, this is
what will probably happen. How do you feel about this?
And it's really helpful because the other thing is, especially
in a divorce, it's like no other kind of lawsuit.
If you're in a landlord tenant lawsuit or fender bender,
you want to get the other person. You want to win,
and you want to smash them whatever. We can't really
do that in a divorce. You might feel like you
want to. But one, this is your money. There's a
(28:11):
pot of your money. It belongs to both of you.
The more you spend and go out of the pot
to the lawyers and the forensic accounts and the exports,
the less you have for you and your kids. But two,
and most importantly, after the fender bender, you're never gonna
see that person again. After the divorce, you're gonna see
the person at the parent teacher conference, You're gonna see
the person at the birthday party. You got to figure
out a way get along with them Thanksgiving if you're
(28:33):
in my family. Yeah, and getting wassard can be expensive,
So it's probably Do people not get divorced because of
money where they stay together because they are like cheaper
to keeper. Having ever heard that, wait to have this
great joke, what what's what is the Barbie Barbie the
Barbie dream house. Barbie Dreamhouse comes with all the accessories,
(28:57):
the dream house and the clothing and the wardrobe and
the RV. And Ken just comes by himself because she
took everything, or some joke about that. He certainly does.
You can doesn't have anything, Gavin, do you feel sort
of like I do about marriage because we've seen divorce
(29:17):
and we don't want that, So it's like, why I'm
not I'm not afraid of marriage at all. I'm just
afraid of divorce. I think that. And it wouldn't it
wouldn't be so terrifying if divorce wasn't incentivized the reality
is that divorce has become completely incentivized in Western civilization period,
and and it's just it's financially bizarre that you would
(29:40):
reward a failing system. And you think that we reward
it because she gets half your money doesn't have to
be she in his case, Well, you know, it's bizarre
to me that we we would reward failure. In almost
no other structure do we reward failure. So why would
(30:01):
you reward failure to Okay, I take issue with two things.
One I don't necessarily think it's a failure, but let's
leave that alone. Why who's being rewarded? I'm saying, if
there's a higher earner and a low earner and the
relationship doesn't work, Okay, So here's how maybe change your
way of thinking a little bit. And I'm not saying
I agree with the law. But the law is when
(30:21):
you get married, the high earner is earning money from
community efforts, which means it's already half her money in
this hypothetical situation. So we're not rewarding her. She already
owns half of it. I'm not saying taking her half
and leaving the party. Right. Okay, here's a question. So
I don't know all about the law here, you do, right,
(30:43):
I'm just looking at it from this distant, distant window
right of people that I know who have had divorces
and it's been very costly. Okay, people who maybe have
had been married for five years, they had a kid,
and and the sort of the the the X turns
(31:04):
into an absolute terror and greedy and absolutely torments the
the X waiving the power, having the power of waiving
the kids in front of them, and really weaponizing things
that shouldn't be weaponized. Right, So have you seen that?
(31:26):
And That's what I'm talking about. So we're rewarding people
for walking away from the system that was supposed to
be helping each other. And you may think I'm wrong
saying that, but I've seen I've seen that with people
that I knew, friends of mine, who I felt like
they were just getting raped over the coals, you know,
(31:48):
I felt like they got maybe someone took advantage of
their financial situation. They were, you know, they were lonely,
essentially working their ass off and providing, you know, essentially
living a good life and on someone that wanted to
do that with them and got used for that essentially. Yes,
and again I will say to people that kind of
(32:08):
hypothetical that you explain, I'll say you created this monster.
You took her in, you started providing her with this lifestyle.
In the situation you described, he'd only be paying spousal
support for about two and a half years, half the
length of the marriage. I know it's not nothing, and
he's likely not paying much more than what he was
paying for her to have that lifestyle. Anyway, It's just that, Yeah,
(32:29):
it hurts when you're writing a check and it's going away.
It's different if you're writing a check and it's all
happening under your same roof. If you're all in Cabo,
you don't quite mind so much. Then if she's in
Cabo with your kids and you're paying for it, I
see more. Do you see more and more women who
are having to pay spousal support, Yes, spousal and child.
And again they come in and they're like, what do
(32:50):
you mean this guy's been sitting on the couch for
fifteen years. I want this albatross off from around my neck.
I'm the woman. I shouldn't you know? And I said, well,
the laws underblind, honey, you And then that's how I
feel it should be. Totally genderblind. It is, and it
is much more in California now with regard to custody
too of kids. I mean people come in and say, well,
I'm the mom, I should have the kids, and I'm like, yeah,
(33:12):
not so much. The kids have a right to have
access I think equally, if possible, based on time sharing
careers in location with both of their parents. I love
your approach. Just listening to you to I love your
approach to a very sensitive and tough topic. I have
(33:35):
two really quick topics before we go. One is, and
I think we kind of addressed it. Is conscious uncoupling
much better than unconscious coupling, which sometimes happens like right
after the separation. Okay, dive into that. Dive into the
term of consciously. Don't think Chris Martin made it famous,
but I've interviewed the woman who wrote the book about
(33:57):
conscious like and yeah, and I think it's actually quite
um if you really dig into it and read the book.
It's basically what Laura was talking about, how everyone's at
Thanksgiving the goal is to make it. I don't know
you can explain that. I'm sure you have couples that
attempt it, but it's um. Keeping the relationship good for
(34:20):
you and that person and children if they're involved, because
it shouldn't have to be so ugly. But basically it's
the marriage didn't fail, it worked, and now you're going
to move on. You're changing how your family functions. You're
so a family, but you're changing the way you approach
your familial relationship. It's what you said before, do you
(34:42):
hate your X more than you love your kids? I
would hope not, So there's no reason to not try
and make that situation. I think conscious uncoupling is what
I try to do now in all relationships, not just marriage,
because it's like, why should it be so ugly when
maybe it was beautiful? And then like, for a variety
of reasons, some beyond my control, it doesn't work out.
(35:06):
Everybody it's like this is but I really, I mean
if you, if I say to people all the time
you're going through this, think about something that you really
used to love about this person. He was in the
delivery room with you, holding your hand while you were
pushing out those babies. And there has to be something
(35:27):
that got you into this relationship, made you fall in love.
Tap into that. Because the other thing is if you're
so consciously hating on your ex and you have kids,
that same energy you were talking about before books that's
in the house carries through and your kids go to wait,
I'm half that guy or gal and he or she
so hates that guy or gal. How do they feel
(35:49):
about me? Parents should not bring the children into the
argument or even have the argument in front of the kids.
They feel it, they hear it there. What do you say? Kids?
Turn around? We go outside. We have someone that works
with us. She's twenty four years old, and her parents
drag her into all their arguments. Lam. I can't imagine
(36:15):
what it's like. My parents have been married. Now we
celebrate their forty five wedding anniversary this past summer. My
wife's parents are divorced. I can't imagine what it would
be like as a child to know your parents being
divorced party divorce. When I was young, I was like
four when they split up. Um, and I was the
last of five kids. But I'll say this, times have
(36:35):
changed in the sense that when I was little, I
used to think and maybe I've just mat sure. When
I was little, because of that, my parents did not
get along for so many years. It was brutal. Um.
So when I was little, I used to think, that's
the worst thing that can happen to to a marriage
is or to to a couple is the divorce. And
now that I'm older and I see how it affects
kids and all this type of stuff, and I lived
through it, I think the worst thing that can happen
(36:57):
is to have a loveless marriage and and fight and
and stay together. But so I don't think divorce is
the worst thing anymore. But I think to be fighting
like that the way I grew up, it was very difficult.
Can we quickly touch on the gray divorce? Gavorce is
also speaking of we're talking about anybody over saying, anyone
over fifty that gets divorce is the great divorce, and
(37:19):
it's more and more common, right, and those are now
the people that I graduated place school with. But the
great divorce again, it's either people who have empty nesters,
their kids have grown up and left, or I think
one of the statistics is second marriages haven't even higher divorce,
right than like, if you've already been through it once,
(37:39):
you're like Alan tipper Goore, like they were married for
like fifty years and they were pretty old, and then
suddenly they get divorced and you're like why bother. Why why?
But why why do you ask that question? Because you're saying,
what their happiness the remaining years of their life doesn't matter. Well,
I'm stop why I'm bringing it up. I think people
are living longer and so they're they're more willing to
(38:03):
get divorced in their sixties than they used to be.
I mean, I've had people come to me. Last year
in two thousand nineteen, I actually had three divorces where
the parties were eighty or older. And that's when I
was truly like, I was like my father and actually
there is there is there advice here you go. The
(38:23):
fight was over, the settlement was about who gets to
keep the medicine cabin and there are there's some laws though.
If you die when your spouse when you're married, versus
dying when you're divorced, there's all kinds of tax benefits.
I'm like, you're weighted out, you know, so, I mean,
but but yes, it is because people are saying, I
only have this much time left and I really want
(38:45):
to be happy. I'm not going to do this for
one more year. I mean, it is true when humans
only lived until like thirty, it was a lot easier
to stay married for your whole life. My grandma did that.
My grandma got divorced and ended up dating a new
per person, actually the first person she ever dated in
high school and was amazingly, amazingly, she was so happy.
(39:09):
He ended up passing, but she was so happy during
those years of her life. I have a question. I
think that's that's really cool. I do love those stories too,
when when you realize that somebody from your past, but
that's pretty exciting. I have a question, though, from your observations, Laura,
is there if you were to give just straight up advice,
do you think there's an age that's too early to
get married? Great one. It's hard to say because it
(39:32):
depends on the people. I mean, I know there's some
year old out there, um, and then there's some super
immature for two year olds out there. But how are you,
Laura somehow April seventeen, She's like, they're usually rock stars. Laura,
(40:00):
here's a because I I really listening to you talk.
I really respect and admire your approach to this topic.
You aren't in it just to like make money and
get people on their way, like you actually care about
all parties involved. You look at all scenarios and you
actually care about people's happiness. So I want to commend
you for all of that and how you handle yourself
personally professionally. It's amazing. Now that being said, because I
(40:24):
gave you that dandy of a compliment, I get to
ask you this question. What is the ugliest divorce you
have ever seen? You don't have to name names, but
what is just ugly to them? Because it was probably
really nice for you. What is the one where you
just have a story? This all I did not represent
(40:46):
either of the course you know what it is. And
these are these are the ones. There's there's two to
three that like really hit in my head. They all
involve child custody. The child custodies are the soul crushers.
And in all honesty, I would trade my house if
I didn't have to go through those cases, because you do,
(41:06):
you get very tight with people and you take on
a lot of their angst and you see the true
evil in people when they are fighting about their children.
And again if there's allegations of abuse or somebody wants
to move across the country. So you can't just do
(41:26):
like two days, two days, three days of shared custody
because they're living a few blocks apart. And it's those
kind of things where you just it is just it
it takes so much out of you. And those are
the ugliest there by far. I mean, there's funny things
where you know, somebody throws a stiletto healing it actually
gets stuck in the door. Or this person wanted to
(41:47):
trade an STD test for a get, which is a
Jewish divorce. Like I'm like, that's a weird you know
combo but oka or poisoning of you know, cats so
that there's like diarrhea all over the white condom in
him when they gave a cat. That stuff is funny,
and that's the stuff that I'm like, made that at
fifty dollars reading that letter. Okay, fine, the kid ones
(42:08):
are the ones that just are so so sad. And
that's why I do it the way you said Brooks,
try to approach it in a way that I really
want to change the way people look at divorce and
try to make it better. And I highly recommend Laura's podcast.
I've obviously never been married or divorced, and I I'm
addicted to the podcast. I think it's really good relationship
(42:32):
the podcast is called Divorces, called divorce Sucks, but by
the time this air is it's going to be called
All's Fair, like All's fair in love and war. It's
on my heart. Check us out. I think Amy is
a bigger fan of divorce and marriage, Like, if you
could just get divorced, you would do that. I think
divorce sucks. But I'm I actually I'm not. You know,
(42:54):
you know what we called it, Gavin a good time. Yeah,
so here, here's what it is. You go in dirty,
but you come out clean. And it's like it's like
when a product overtakes an entire category. So instead of
saying search it, you say, why don't you just google it?
Or you're like, can I have a Kleenix? Like Kleenix
is the brand name, it's actually a tissue, you know,
(43:18):
it could be you could be yeah, just wasper. Just
get a wasser. Honey, here's the thing. I think we
need to get divorce. Maybe we can. That will change
the whole image of it. That could be your leg meant,
this girl I just got was actually what people just like,
(43:39):
I've been through two wassers already. I don't think I
can do it. Hey, I'm dating this girl. She you know,
she's wassered but she hadn't that kid. But she's great.
Oh what a dubious honor you are so thank you
(44:01):
for having to cal where like a couple. We're not
because she went to golf instead of water polo. I
love my golfer. He is so great. He's gone for
eight hours day exactly. Um, that's why we're so happy.
So where can people get in touch with you? Laura?
So the the old the podcast now as we record
(44:22):
this called Divorce Sucks. The new ones called All's Fair
word anywhere you get your your podcast. But where case people,
people besides my wife get in touch with you except
your wife can't get in touch with me. On it's
over easy dot com. We have our Instagram which is
at It's over easy and uh Laura Wasser Official is
another Instagram. And we are also launching a post divorce
(44:47):
It's called Next Chapter series. Four people that have been
divorced and they kind of want some tips on how
to move forward in their lives. So all those fun
things Valentine's Day. Valentine's Day, So all of you listeners,
there you go. There's a gift to you from our
generous producer Ab Sugar shows how I feel about Valentine's
(45:09):
She's the grin of Valentin, poor boyfriend. But in real
that was a real discussion Rose dinner. That's what we're
looking for, Um, that was that was actually a really
interesting discussion though, like because it is such commonplace. I
know many people, many people and have it in my family,
(45:31):
people that are divorced. Um, And I never I never
looked at it the way you looked at it. I
do look at it that I want people to live
happy and fulfilled lives. I want that for every single soul.
But the way you look at the situation with such
a sensitivity and a kindness and authenticity and caring for
the people involved, I just I really commend you, Laura.
Thank you very much. I learned a lot here today.
(45:52):
Thank you. I want to see the still. Thank you
very much for coming on. We appreciate you. Look her up,
look up her podcast or new podcast, and I hope
you just love the I heart team, our producers here, Tory,
Danielle Amy, everybody involved with our our show East and
our engineer. Everybody is just amazing. And I hope you
(46:13):
love the new journey. UM and I'm really happy for you,
but I hope I'm never on your podcast enough. Thank
you very much, Thank you guys, Thank you everybody for
listen until next week. Take care of one another, love
one another, and we will see you right back here
for another episode of How Men Think
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