Creating a Post-Layoff Action Plan w/ Marlo Lyons #980

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Welcome to out of money. I'm Joel, I'm Matt's and
today we're talking creating a post layoff action plan with
Marlowe Lyons.

Speaker 2 (00:25):
Yeah. So gone are the years of constantly job hopping
in order to rapidly boost your salary. Like it seemed
like for a minute their Joel, like everyone was looking
at job postings as regularly as they were looking at
houses on Zillo. True story, or maybe that was just me.
But with the uncertainty though that we've experienced in the
overall market, it's not just the new hires who are

(00:46):
a bit nervous about hanging onto their jobs, even the
government workers out there, or maybe I should even say
especially the government workers. I don't know, but you know,
they thought they had fairly secure positions. They might be
on the chopping block. They might be sweat a little bit.
Which is why I'm glad that we get to talk
with career coach Marlowe Lions, because not only does she
have over twenty years of experience in this field, she

(01:10):
herself has actually been fired multiple times. Marlin oh Catha
was multiple time. Sorry I don't bring that up, you know,
in order to knock you, like I think This is
a strength because I think this gives you a unique
perspective into this position that many folks are finding themselves in. Uh.
Marlowe is the author of Wanted a New Career, where

(01:31):
she goes in depth on pivoting to a new career.
She's got a new book about landing that first job.
She's host of the Work Unscripted podcast, and we're actually
very pumped to hear the advice that she's going to
be able to share with our listeners today during our conversation.
So marlow lyons, thank you so much for joining.

Speaker 3 (01:48):
Us, Thank you for having me.

Speaker 1 (01:50):
Glad to have you, marlow first question out of the gate,
we got to ask you, what do you like to
support John Matt for Matt Night's. It's been craft beer
for a long time. You know we have other things too,
But what is that for you? What do you like
to sporge on while you're still doing smart stuff with
your money for your future?

Speaker 3 (02:03):
Okay, I gotta tell you I don't spoage on things.
I spores on experiences. So last summer, my family and
I went to Europe for six.

Speaker 4 (02:11):
Weeks, six weeks, six weeks.

Speaker 3 (02:14):
And toward Europe and look I mean, I did stay
on points at certain places and we used points for
airfare between countries and things like that, but but also
stayed in a castle one night, stayed in a cave
one night.

Speaker 4 (02:27):
Like it was.

Speaker 3 (02:28):
We did some really cool experiences. We did truffle hunting,
cooked with our truffles afterwards.

Speaker 4 (02:35):
At oh, of course it was yeah outside caves.

Speaker 1 (02:40):
You said you slept in a cave. That right, Yeah,
it's like a cave.

Speaker 3 (02:42):
It's a cave hotel in Madera. It was the list
experience ever. We had a pool and not not a
hot tub, a pool in our room, like a pool
that you could swim in the pool like in our bedroom.

Speaker 2 (02:54):
All right.

Speaker 4 (02:55):
It was the coolest thing.

Speaker 2 (02:56):
I literally wrote down cave hotel.

Speaker 4 (03:00):
It was.

Speaker 3 (03:02):
We had the best time, I mean, And what was
so nice is like I really got to know my
kids really closely, and we had like great conversations and
by the end they were getting us to the next train,
they were telling us where we needed to go, you know,
we're running all over Europe.

Speaker 2 (03:16):
It was.

Speaker 3 (03:16):
It was awesome. So I'm big on experiences. So my
next experience, well it's not mine, it's actually my daughter's,
but we got her tickets to the Straight Kids concert
in LA. She got Straight Kids, which is a K
pop band. So okay, so that's her next experience.

Speaker 4 (03:29):
Good to know, that's what I was.

Speaker 2 (03:35):
All right, Marlo, let's talk about work, because I will
correct myself. You haven't been fired multiple times. I guess
I just read different different accounts of the same firing.
It was just firing, maybe just one time, but it
seemed like it was from an early job, and it
sounded like that had a pretty big impact on you.
Can you maybe explain how that's firing at that point
in time, how that helped you to pivot? Yeah?

Speaker 3 (03:56):
Yeah, I was twenty six and I was I would say,
you know, a young kind of immature, almost call myself
a teenager. Still even though it was my third job, right,
I was a TV news reporter and it was my
third job, I still felt like, you know, I was

(04:18):
empowered to say anything I ever wanted to say when
I wanted to say it. And so, unfortunately I didn't
work for a boss who you know, was trained in
EQ and back then there was no EQ, right, there
was no like training in these things. And so instead
of like talking to me about it and wondering what
was going on. And I can tell you what was
going on. I got fired, and what was going on

(04:38):
was I had been engaged and then unengaged about six
months earlier. So I was pretty angry and I was
pretty sad, and I was pretty like, you know, trying
to figure it out. And it was showing up at
work unfortunately, and there was no question about it. Just
got fired. And look, I don't blame that boss at all.
I thank that boss to this day. If he's ever
listening to this, I literally would thank him in person,

(05:00):
you know, not because you know that I feel like
he changed my life in that moment. And what he
did was he maybe kind of reflects on who I
was and who I wanted to be and how I
wanted to be. And it allowed me to really take
control of my emotions and take control of my trajectory.

(05:21):
And what was so interesting is that this was like
when the Internet was just getting going. So yes, I'm old,
I'm sorry, but I'm not too old. I feel like
i'm thirty, so let's just go with that. But the
Internet was just getting going and I was a TV
news reporter and I could see once I was fired.
Once I could pause for a minute. I could see, Wow, Okay,
we're not going to eat TV news much longer because

(05:43):
the Internet, right, We're going to have news on the Internet.
And so it gave me a second to go, all right,
what do I want to do? Do I want to
do TV news forever? What am I going to do
with this? And so I got back in to get
out basically, and that's when I went to law school
at night, and then I worked as an entertainment at
Turn and then again made a pivot after that because
after twelve years of that, I had had enough and

(06:05):
moved into HR and that's when I got certified for
in coaching and I loved it.

Speaker 1 (06:10):
Talk to me about your the first job that you
went after. The gumption that you displayed getting that first
job was incredible, I think, And can you talk to
us about that process, because it feels like the way
most people apply for jobs these days. It's kind of like,
let me just send in the resume, see what happens.

Speaker 4 (06:27):
Yeah, and it doesn't work.

Speaker 2 (06:28):
You didn't take that approach, No, I know what.

Speaker 4 (06:31):
You're referring to.

Speaker 3 (06:32):
I convinced my parents back in the day before cell phones, right,
so they couldn't reach me at any time those types
of things before computers, very few people had computers that
are very expensive. I convinced my parents to allow me
to drive from DC to Texas and back, and I
interviewed it every TV station along the way, and back
in the day there was ABCNBC, CBS, and maybe a

(06:53):
few Foxes here and there. And I drove from DC
to Alpaso, Texas and back, multiple stories in that, of course,
but without a cell phone, without a computer. I had
a little brotherword processor writing thank you notes as I
was traveling and making phone calls trying to get meetings
the day before every time I would move locations, and
I came home with no job and so, but I

(07:17):
also came home to an answering machine message from a
news director that I had sent a tape to and
he was in Medford, Oregon, and he said he'd like
to talk to me about an associate producer job. And
so I moved then from DC to Oregon for my
first job. But you know the thing about that is
you can't do that today, Like nobody's gonna let you

(07:37):
in the door right at these companies. If you went
and drove around and started dropping off resumes. Nobody wants
to see a paper resume. They want you to apply
through the applicant tracking system. But the concept of networking
still exists today. The concept of meeting people, the concept
of getting out of your house right, the concept the
concept of reaching out to people and trying to get
meet and greets and not asking for a job, but

(07:59):
getting them to know you and asking where you can
fill a gap? Right or is there anything you can
do for them? Like that still exists. It's different today,
but but it does exist. And I think you need
to have that tenacity, and you need to have that curiosity,
and you need to have that gumption, like you said,
to figure out what is the strategy that's not working

(08:19):
and how to find the strategy that will.

Speaker 2 (08:21):
You had a job as a producer, I think you said,
an entertainment attorney, like from what I understand, like you
were interviewing applicants to like the real world like shows
on the TV or chopped things like that. Talk about
this variety of careers that you had. I think there's
a part of me that's encouraged because I feel like
the all the jobs I've had, they've been go through

(08:42):
line like related to each other. It's been quite the range,
but I'm curious to hear you speak to that.

Speaker 3 (08:48):
Yeah, there is a through line, like when you think
about it. First of all, there's no job you'll ever
have in your life that you don't gain skills from.
You will always gain skills. I don't care if you're
flipping burgers, you will gain skills. And so for me,
I started as a TV news reporter. I started as
an associate producer. I was producing medical reports that a
local doctor would voice. Then I became a reporter, which
is what I wanted to do, and then I decided,

(09:12):
you know, you heard what happened. I got fired, and
so I was like, all right, I want to get
out of this, Like, I don't want to do this,
and I definitely don't want to be in a situation
again where I'm on my own trying to figure out
what to do when I get fired. So I decided
I was going to go to law school at night.
I always had an interest in it, and so I
worked at a TV news station in Oklahoma City, and
I basically worked from eight to five. I was on

(09:32):
the four and five o'clock news doing a consumer report
and then I would go to law school from six
to nine at night, and then I would meet the
live truck at ten o'clock for a live shot on
an investigative report. And I did this for three and
a half years and graduated, and then I moved to
la to be a screenwriter. You can see how that
turned out, although right now I do have a little

(09:52):
script floating around Hollywood still. But that didn't so work out,
but sometimes things happened. Twenty years later and then I
got a job working in what's called reality diligence, So
you're doing background check, psych and medical on all the
reality show participants. And I worked on I worked on

(10:13):
all of the shows that you can imagine, so NBC
and then viacom So at NBC, I worked on The Apprentice,
and I worked on Real Housewives when it was just
starting with Teresa Goodize and all these people. And then
from there, you know, I did that for twelve years,
and it's amazing to talk about at cocktail parties. But
after twelve years, I had had enough. I was exhausted,

(10:33):
right so, cause remember you're dealing with people that are
that are sane but barely in some in some cases,
in some cases right, very colorful backgrounds, and so so
then I decided I had no idea what I wanted
to do. I was completely lost, and so I started
trying to figure out what I could do with my skills,

(10:54):
and that was the wrong approach. And what I was
looking for was how do I just get fulfilled?

Speaker 4 (10:59):
Like, how do I just be happy?

Speaker 3 (11:00):
How do I find the thing? And the wrong approach
is what can I do with what I've done. That's
the wrong approach because then you're only looking at things
that you have skills for, and I wasn't looking at
things that would actually fulfill me. And I worked with
a career coach, interestingly enough briefly, and he said, you
know what lights you on fire, what gets you excited,
what gets you out of bed in the morning. And

(11:21):
I came up with a list of things, and from
there I was able to figure out that I wanted
to be in HR now, and that comes from wanting
to help people and wanting to, you know, explain why
this was the wrong move. But it's about, you know,
I wanted to help people and I wanted to, you know,
help people succeed in their lives and things like that,

(11:41):
and I realized I went to get certified and coaching
because every job description that I saw that resonated with
me had the word coaching it a thousand times. I
loved the coaching courses, loved it. It took a year,
year and a half to get certified, and I absolutely
loved it. And then I moved to Roku, which was
my first HR job. But HR was it was a startup,

(12:02):
like it was four hundred people. So HR was all
about coaching the C suite. So I coached the head
of players, the head of advertise advertising, the CFO, CMO,
and general counsel. And that's all I did all day
is I just coached them and their teams all day long.
I loved it. I loved the job. I loved everything
about it. I did ORG design and change management and
I loved it. Well. Then I decided, well, you know,

(12:24):
they don't really have an HR department, so they don't
really do the other HR things like performance management or
learning and development or all those things. I said, God,
I really need to think about, like how am I
going to get the rest of the HR experience. So
I moved to Intuitive Surgical, which is a medical technology company,
A phenomenal company. But I realized one thing very quickly.

(12:45):
I wasn't coaching as much. I was still coaching at
the c suite level and whatnot, but I was doing
all these other things in HR.

Speaker 4 (12:51):
And I don't love that stuff. And you know, HR
is not really.

Speaker 3 (12:56):
About helping people. It's about aligning people's skills and capabilities
to the company goals. That's what the job is. I
get that, but I was always I always like to
help people. And when you're coaching somebody, whether it's how
to give hard feedback or you know, how to do
an org design or things like that, you're actually coaching.
You are helping it away, you are helping the company.

(13:16):
You're still doing the goal of HR, which is aligning
those capabilities. But when you're doing other things in HR,
it doesn't feel like you're really helping as much.

Speaker 2 (13:27):
Yeah. Yeah, nice. Yeah, So it all came back to
helping folks on an individual level. But can we like,
I guess to zoom out for a quick second, because
we've and I kind of mentioned this in the intro,
but we've had an incredible run of really low unemployment
in the country. Yeah, but that era, it looks like
it might be coming to an ad over. Yeah, as
a career coach, like I would love to hear your

(13:47):
take your current assessment of the overall labor market.

Speaker 3 (13:51):
Yeah. You know, when I left Intuitive, it is because
they were calling people back to the office and we
had moved states, and so I was petrified right afterwards
to answer your question, like I thought, oh my god,
I got to find another job, but this market is horrible.
How am I going to find another job? And I realized,
you know, I had a side coaching business for ten years,
so I just went out on my own and it's
been great. But this market is the probably the worst

(14:14):
market I've seen in a very long time, probably since
two thousand and eight, but it has lasted longer. This
has actually been going on for well over a year.
This didn't just start in January.

Speaker 1 (14:22):
Which is a big whiplash, a big change from what
we were experiencing just a few short years ago.

Speaker 3 (14:27):
It is absolutely and I saw this in two thousand
and eight, you know, I was coaching back then as
well and again now.

Speaker 4 (14:34):
But this is worse.

Speaker 3 (14:35):
It is actually a lot worse because I think in
two thousand and eight, you know, we saw all the
layoffs happen, you know, with the market crash, and it
lasted until about twenty ten. This has already been going
on for over two years easily, and so and we've
got at least another year or so of this, if
not longer, depending upon you know, how the government sways, shall.

Speaker 4 (14:55):
We say, But it's rough, it's very rough.

Speaker 3 (14:59):
And I and I tell my clients that I'm like,
you know, I can help you get prepared to get
a job. I can do everything in my power to
make sure you are capable of getting a job. I
can't get you a job. And I've said that, you
know for the last over a decade or twenty years
that I've been doing this, And I never promise getting
them job because I'm not in the interviews right I
can't whisper in their ear as they're answering the question.

(15:20):
But they will be one hundred percent prepared to answer
the questions. And so and right now, you know, people
need to they need to take a breath, you know,
they need to take a breath, and they need to
just understand that it's going to take longer if they're
looking for a new job, it's going to take longer.
But they are capable of getting one. There are jobs
out there. It's not like there are no jobs out
there at all.

Speaker 1 (15:41):
You're making me think of the real estate market for
some reason, and how like a real turk can help
you price it and they can help you talk about
curb appeal and get the house ready, but they don't
have control over what's happening in the overall market.

Speaker 2 (15:52):
Is it a buyer's market? Is a seller's market?

Speaker 1 (15:54):
Like? How long our listings hang out typically? And we
can make sure you're on the shorter end of that
if we do this, this, this, and this, but there's
still no guarantee.

Speaker 2 (16:02):
I'm curious.

Speaker 1 (16:03):
So you know, you're not a personal finance expert, but
you are a career coach. What are the common money
concerns that you hear from clients? You talk to people,
I'm sure often yeah, post layoff, what.

Speaker 2 (16:13):
Are they feeling?

Speaker 1 (16:14):
Are they like, got to get that new job stat
because I don't have any cash on hand?

Speaker 2 (16:19):
Are what's going through people's minds?

Speaker 3 (16:21):
Yeah, people are, of course super concerned. Some people get
exit packages, some people don't, right, some people just get
laid off and they get one week severance if nothing.
There is no law in this country that says you
deserve a severance or you will receive a severance.

Speaker 4 (16:36):
So know that if you.

Speaker 3 (16:37):
Are employed right now and you're happy in your job,
just know that there is no law that says you're
going to get anything now. There might be company policies,
but those can change on a whim. So you got
to keep that in mind because I think a lot
of people are concerned of how long it's going to take.
They're concerned will their money last. And unemployment in the
United States, as you know, does not pay much of anything.

(16:59):
Maybe it'll pay for your gas that week, or maybe
they won't afford eggs these days, so but it won't
pay for much. And so I think they're just kind
of wondering, do I have to sell my four O
one K? Do I have to you know, sell other things?
Do I have to sell my house? I've heard that.
And then one of the biggest concerns is can I
get the same amount of money I got before? Because

(17:20):
That's what I've been living at. And I will tell
you that the prices are coming down, like the salaries
are coming down a lot, so like twenty thirty forty thousand.

Speaker 4 (17:32):
Dollars, So what you were paid before, you.

Speaker 3 (17:34):
May not be paid for the same job now. And
also you have to consider like level, like a director
in tech might make the same thing that a VP
makes an entertainment right, you have to consider both the
industry and also the level that you're going in at,
and whether it's a startup or it's an established company.
So all of those things matter. And I think they're
just really concerned will I make the same amount? And

(17:56):
the chances are you might not. So if that's your
only itteria, you're going to have to open your mind
a little bit more to other things and not look
at it as a step back, but as a market shift.

Speaker 2 (18:09):
You said a yeah, you got to open your mind. Earlier,
you said that you want folks to breathe or to
take a breath. Yeah, are you a fan of folks
taking us a sabbatical. We've We've talked with someone not
too long ago about using a layoff as a potential
time to reflect. And this is what I mean. It
seems like this is the core of what you're saying,
to figure out what is going to get you up
in the morning to find that fulfilling work. But do

(18:31):
you think sometimes that leads to a longer maybe even
an intentional longer period of time where they're not working.

Speaker 3 (18:38):
I don't think it leads to a I mean it
depends how long your sabbatical is, right, whether it's going
to lead to a longer time not working. I think
that a sabbatical is a great idea. And here's why.
You need to process.

Speaker 4 (18:49):
Your emotions right.

Speaker 3 (18:51):
You have to sit in it, and whether you're mad
or you're relieved, or whatever comes to you, you have
to process it. And you have to allow yourself that
time to reconfigure your mindset.

Speaker 4 (19:01):
Right.

Speaker 3 (19:02):
And what I mean by that is you have to
understand that you have capabilities, You are smart, You can
change jobs, you can change careers. Being laid off is
not a reflection of your skill set.

Speaker 4 (19:12):
It's not.

Speaker 3 (19:13):
It is a reflection of the former company's lack of
proper planning during this turbulent economy, and so or it
could also be a change in business strategy. The point
is like, if you take a sabbatical and you just
pause and stop and be off that treadmill for a minute,
you might actually be able to figure out what you

(19:34):
want to do versus what you can do. And that's
what I do with my clients, as I always ask
them in my very first meeting with them, I'll say,
what do you want to do? And every single one
of them either looks at me with a like a
deer in headlights or they say, gosh, nobody's ever asked
me that before. Can you imagine everybody's trying to figure
out what they can do. You got to figure out

(19:54):
what you want to do. The want is where you
find fulfillment. It's not the can. Because I can't tell
you how many executives I work with that are in
their thirties, forties, and fifties and they've been tapped on
the shoulder their entire career saying, hey, you'd be great
for this job. Here's more money, and here's a higher title.
Cool yay, And they are miserable. Yeah, because yes, their

(20:16):
skills and capabilities aligned with the goals of the company,
but they never aligned that with what they want, and
without that, they're not happy.

Speaker 1 (20:24):
I mean that totally makes sense, and I think, yeah,
we see a lot of people in corporate America finding
themselves in that position, and sometimes the layoff is it
doesn't feel like it in that moment, Just like when
you got fired from your job. It didn't feel like
in the moment, hey, this is probably the best thing
for me. But ultimately, and from what I've seen with
a lot of people around me, when they've gotten laid off,

(20:45):
it has led to maybe a reset that has allowed
them to pursue something that does light them up a
bit more. One of the let's talk strategies in particular,
one of the things you tell people is you want
them to start writing down their accomplishment post layoff before
for too much time passes.

Speaker 2 (21:02):
Why is that? What's that about?

Speaker 3 (21:03):
Yeah, they should write it in free form, right, just
write it down what they accomplished, what they were successful at,
what they feel they did great. And they should do
it in the star method, or at least do free
form first and then put it in the Start method.
I call it the start method with the t that
situation task achould result take away because the takeaways are
what you learned from that experience, right, and how it

(21:24):
connects when you're looking for other jobs, how it connects
to those jobs. And you want to include hard and
soft skills. And the reason you do that is it
helps you not only reflect on how great you are,
right and what goods you did and what you can
do like capable. Yeah, it's an emotional booth. You're capable,
you're successful, like you can bring value to a company.

(21:46):
You're also going to need that, and you're going to
need it when you are revamping your resume and you know,
considering what you want to do, and when you're writing
down your accomplishments. By the way, maybe put a little
extra star next to the ones that really lit you
on fire, because you might have an accomplishment that ugh,
yeah I got through that, thank god, and it was
a big deal for the company.

Speaker 4 (22:05):
Oh but yuck.

Speaker 3 (22:07):
You know, that's not something you necessarily want to pursue.
But if there's something that let you on fire and
you love something about it, then maybe put a little
asterisk next to it, because that'll help you focus on
what you want.

Speaker 2 (22:17):
Very cool, and yeah, maybe you should be focusing more
on those projects that even your former employer may not
have valued all that much. But if it gets you excited,
I could see how that could lead to additional opportunities
that you're pretty pumped to pursue. But yeah, you're talking
about documenting these accomplishments, you're essentially taking stock of what
you've done. Beyond that, though, is job hunting, and marlow

(22:39):
We've got a lot more questions to get to about
job hunting. We'll get to that right after this.

Speaker 1 (22:51):
Our we're back from the break where so we'll talking
with Marlowe Lyons talking about what to do after getting
laid off and Marlo, Yeah, you talked about we talked
about some of the financial difficulties that people face and
hopefully you have some sort of financial runway, whether it's
from your former employer or whether it's from money you've
saved up and ideally for our listeners who want them

(23:12):
to have both. Right, but let's talk about job hunting afterwards,
and taking a minute to breathe, taking some of that
emotional stock makes sense. But then when it comes down
to it and when you're ready to start looking for work,
is is this something that you take forty hours a
week to do like you did at your old job
or or even more, I mean, are we like full
time going after it, foaming at the mouth job hunting

(23:35):
or are you taking a more lax approach?

Speaker 3 (23:37):
Absolutely not, absolutely not. This is not a forty hour
week job. You are not chained to your desk. You
are not chained to your computer. And I think that's
super important. I'm glad you brought that up because a
lot of people feel like I'm if I don't put
in all the effort, if I don't work hard, I'm
not going to get a job that has nothing to
do with it. So no, not forty hours a week.

(24:00):
What you should do is you should number one, know
what you want to do. You cannot create a LinkedIn
profile or a resume if you don't know what you
want to do, because then your resume is too generic
and nobody's going to understand how to connect the dots
to what you want to do. So you have to
know what you want to do. Then I would sit down,
I would define your target roles and your companies that

(24:21):
you're interested in. Of course, look at other companies as well.
Never just limited to that. I would set yourself some
daily and weekly goals. And what that does for you
is that prevents procrastination. Right, Like, we could all sit
here and scroll for hours, especially if we're not feeling
good today, or if we're you know, kind of depressed
or sad, or we're stressed or scared. But this will

(24:42):
prevent your procrastination. I'll help you feel accomplished at the
end of the week if you set a weekly goal
and a daily goal of what you want to do,
and those need to be goals that you can control.
This is critical. You cannot control if you're going to
get a job. You can control if somebody looks at
your You can control if you apply to jobs right.
You can't control if somebody's going to hire you, or
if you're the finalist. If you're a finalist and three

(25:03):
other people are finalists, you don't control that. You don't
control who's going to get the offer.

Speaker 4 (25:07):
You can only.

Speaker 3 (25:08):
Control what you control. So you should set goals about
I'm going to apply to ten jobs. If there are
ten jobs to apply for, I'm going to reach out
to two or three people a week and try to
get meet and greets at companies that I want to
work for. Here's another one that I think people forget.
You need, and I mean need to be posting on LinkedIn.
And what do I mean by that? I mean you

(25:29):
absolutely must be posting either thought leadership if you're an
executive in your field of which you want to work,
or commenting on other people's posts. You can also forward
their posts and comment. You can also write articles, you
can write newsletters, You can do all sorts of things.
But you must be posting on LinkedIn. And here is
why the algorithm on LinkedIn. The more you post, the

(25:51):
more visible you're going to be. You need people to
see you as a thought leader and as somebody that
they're like, oh, I want to work with that guy
or I want to work with that girl. And the
more that you post, the more that somebody out there
will see it.

Speaker 4 (26:05):
Now, do not.

Speaker 3 (26:07):
Post that you hate AI and it's taking your job
and you know and that how can people not want
to work with real people?

Speaker 4 (26:20):
And you know I got laid off?

Speaker 2 (26:22):
Can right?

Speaker 4 (26:23):
Can somebody help me? And the reason?

Speaker 3 (26:26):
And again you can say I need help, right, Hey, network,
I need help, right, But you got to tell people
what you want. I want a job in this state.
I'm willing to work remotely, I am willing to go
into the office. I am looking for these titles. I
am open to any industry. You've got to say what

(26:47):
you want. You can't just ask for help because people
don't know how to help you.

Speaker 4 (26:51):
So and try to keep the.

Speaker 3 (26:54):
Negativity to a minimum because that is a reflection on
you and when things change, as they chase the office
all the time, are you going to be the resistor
to that change. That's how it seems. So you need
to do that. And then two more things, and this
is really important. It goes back to that forty hours
a week thing. You must leave your home. You must

(27:15):
go out, Go have a coffee, go for a walk,
take your computer with you. You will beat people if
you go to a Starbucks. And I know you can
only sit there for so long these days, but go
to a Starbucks. Somebody else will be there with a computer.
Ask them who they are. Get curious about them. They
may be working, or maybe they're maybe they're visiting from
out of town, whatever the case may be. They may

(27:36):
know somebody who knows somebody who knows somebody who can
help you. So you have to get out of your house.
Go to every possible networking event, every possible thing that
is not a networking event, meaning your friend is having
people over. Don't say you don't feel like going. You
never know who you're going to meet there.

Speaker 2 (27:52):
To get off the couch, gott your couch.

Speaker 4 (27:54):
Get yeah.

Speaker 3 (27:55):
It's just like it's kind of like dating, right, Like
you're not nobody's gonna come knocking on your door, are right.
You got to get out there and so and then finally,
I always tell my clients you have to take care
of yourself. If you like to exercise, go exercise. You
need to do what gives you energy and makes you
feel good, because this is going to be This could
take a while, you know, depending upon your network and

(28:15):
depending upon what jobs are out there. The higher you go,
the less jobs there are. Right, there's only one CFO,
there's only one CMO, right. Even vps there aren't as
many vps as there are directors in lower So you
have to get out there and just take care of
yourself and do the thing that gives you energy and
makes you feel good. It doesn't have to cost money, right,
it could be a walk. It's beautiful out right now

(28:37):
in most of the country.

Speaker 2 (28:38):
So it is is fascinating. I mean, going back to
one of the things you're saying is to know what
it is that you want. But I think there could
be a lot of folks out there who have no
idea what it is that they're looking for. And to
that point, I've heard you mention that you are all
about folks looking for interesting jobs, but not actually applying yet.
It's almost like this stage of exploration where you're almost

(29:00):
trying to like see what it is that exists that
you didn't even know exists, that's out there, and so
what is what does that even look like? Aside from
getting off the couch, leaving your home, taking care of yourself,
like going back to the like the digital world. Yes,
there is real life networking that can take place by
leaving home. But does this mean like perusing the job
boards online just to see kind of what what strikes

(29:20):
your fancy?

Speaker 3 (29:21):
No, not really, because I think you'd get lost in that.
Then you can you find you wind up falling back
into that. Oh I can do that. Oh I can
do that. Oh I can do that. Remember you hear
the word can all? I can all the cans?

Speaker 4 (29:33):
Right?

Speaker 3 (29:34):
So, actually I tell people, don't look at the job
boards and actually go back to what's what excites you,
what gives you energy? What to pleate you, what to
what to plete your energy? And those are your values,
right is? Identify those things and then translate them into values, right,
and what do those values meet? So let me give
you give me an example here, tell me what, tell
me something that excites you in your life.

Speaker 2 (29:54):
Matt is physical fitness buff Okay, personal finance. I mean literally,
So we're not looking for jobs because we love what
it is that we do. Yeah, I'm going to give
you the nerdy response.

Speaker 3 (30:07):
Okay, so finance, so you love Okay, so you love finance.
What about finance do you like?

Speaker 1 (30:11):
We like talking about it, we like having a take,
we like helping people, and so that service helping people.

Speaker 2 (30:17):
Our audience stands out. Yeah, right, like anytime you're you know,
and I'm sure you see this too, being a coach,
being able to connect with folks and seeing their life improved.
It's what I said.

Speaker 3 (30:25):
You love finance, you love to talk about it, you
love helping people, you love service service, you know, helping
other people, and you like connecting with people.

Speaker 4 (30:32):
Those are all values, right.

Speaker 3 (30:34):
So then I would dig inteach one of those and
I'd say, well, you like to talk, you like to
help people. What does that mean for you?

Speaker 2 (30:39):
Right?

Speaker 3 (30:40):
And we dig in deep on that and I'd say, okay,
you like to service people, what does that mean for
you? You like to connect with other people? What does that
mean for you? And you dig into that, you did
deeper and deeper and deeper, and you come up with
what it means, what does finance truly mean to you?
And then from there you can look for jobs at
align with that value of finance, because some people like,

(31:02):
for me, I don't love finance. I do the bills
and our family, and I can tell you there's nothing
I hate more when the bills come in and I
have to pay them and then log them, right, so
and finance stresses me out quite frankly, And so I
don't love finance. So you know, for me, if I'm
a person who I say, oh, well, you know, I

(31:22):
love finance because I like having money. I like having money,
and I like going on vacation, that's a very different value.
Then I like servicing people and helping people and connecting
with folks to improve their lives. Right, So it's the
same it's the same word, but it's a different value.
So you have to understand. And neither of them are wrong.
There's no wrong here or right. So you have to
decide what does that value mean to me, and then

(31:43):
you look for jobs that align with that value with
the values that you have. Now AI is great for
this for those who can't afford personal coaching, they can
use AI and just say okay, I love finance because
it means helping people and connecting with other people to
help them improve their lives. What value aligns with that?
And if you type that into AI, you will get

(32:04):
a list of values. Then you look at the one
that resonates the most, and that's what the value is.

Speaker 1 (32:09):
What we talked about all those CAN jobs, You're like, ah,
maybe I should apply for it because I can do that. Well,
what are the common excuses that you hear from people
you're coaching?

Speaker 2 (32:18):
You know?

Speaker 1 (32:18):
And then what do you say to them when they say, well,
I can't get that job? Almost the opposite of the
CAN jobs. It's like, well that sounds so awesome, but
I don't have the resume to get that thing that
I want. What's your responsor?

Speaker 4 (32:32):
Yeah?

Speaker 3 (32:33):
So, too often people build resumes based on what they've done.
In fact, ninety probably ninety five percent of people build
their resume based on what they've.

Speaker 2 (32:43):
Done, which sounds intuitive.

Speaker 3 (32:44):
It does sound intuitive, and it's obvious, right, like, Hey,
I worked at this company and here's what I did,
and here are the accomplishments I did. Here's the problem.
It's not a forward looking resume, meaning it doesn't align
with the job that you want. It is everything you've
ever done. And if you've worked in multiple different types
of jobs, then there's no through line, which we talked
about earlier. You need the through line, right, So, if

(33:06):
I decide that I want to work in a specific field,
everything under each job has to relate to that specific
field or that specific job. And if I just have
a list of things that I've done, not everything under
there is going to relate. So here's an example. When
I worked at Viacom, I was so proud.

Speaker 4 (33:26):
Of the fact that I got.

Speaker 3 (33:28):
A I got language in the Gang of Eight immigration
bill on how reality participants could appear on camera in
shows that were not competitions without having to have a
visa because right now they need a visa if they're
not in a competition show. And I was so proud
of myself. I lobbied and I went to Washington like
it was the coolest thing ever. Right, had nothing to

(33:50):
do with my day job, but it.

Speaker 2 (33:51):
Was so cool.

Speaker 3 (33:52):
It has absolutely nothing to do with HR nothing. So
it's not on my resume anywhere because it has nothing
to do with it, even though it was one of
my coolest accomplishments ever.

Speaker 2 (34:04):
Now a lobbyist, you'd stick.

Speaker 3 (34:06):
Out gay absolutely and the build didn't pass or anything.
But you know, that's the point, Like, it's not what
you've done, it's what you've done that's relevant, and what
you've done that's relevant if you're especially if you're transitioning careers,
may only be one percent of what you've ever done,
but that's all that's relevant. And that's how my clients
move from one career to another. I'll give you an example,

(34:29):
and I hope he's okay with this. But worked with
a performer on a main stage in ballet and retired,
you know, in their mid to late thirties, and worked
a little bit as a technical director and wanted something more.
Now they work in digital account management or somewhere in

(34:50):
the account management space. And so right, the massive swings,
massive swings, right, or a twelfth grade English teacher that
now works in a major MA, your major household name
tech company in program management, right, because you're pulling out
that one percent, that one percent that they have experience

(35:10):
in that space, and your whole resume is filled with that.
And then on top of that, your interview is not
about all those other things. It is about the one percent.
When you're talking about and giving stories.

Speaker 2 (35:22):
I'm writing so much that you're saying down like you
are giving such great takeaways, Like we're talking about this too,
I guess earlier we're talking about it from someone who's
getting fired. But what you're speaking to now is even
if you've got somebody I think who doesn't even necessarily
feel fulfilled at the work that they're doing. I think
there's a lot of listeners who might feel stuck, yeah,

(35:42):
in a career because they've made a lot of progress
up that specific ladder. Their earnings are great. But what
have you found that snaps your clients to the ultimate reality? Like,
is it basically face Is it causing them to face
their mortality? Is it? I mean, like, what is it
that helps folks to have the gumption to have the
kind of tenacity to say no to the thing that

(36:05):
they feel like that they're sort of handcuffed to.

Speaker 3 (36:06):
Yeah, it's courage, man. It takes courage to put away
and say thank you career for the last twenty years,
I'm going to go do something different. And it takes
it's hard work. I tell every client how hard this
work is going to be it's going to be the
hardest work they've ever done, because they're looking inside themselves, right,
and you're evaluating yourself and you're thinking about what do

(36:29):
I want? And that's a really hard question to answer,
but we always get to that answer. And so I
think for people that are stuck in a job, what
I can say to you is that you're never stuck.
You really aren't. What you are is someone who doesn't
have the courage at the moment to take that leap
of digging into yourself and figuring out what you want.

(36:52):
And I think that, you know, people use the word
stuck or they're so busy, or they're you know, and
I say busy like work, right, or busy in life,
and they stay on this treadmill because guess what, it
keeps them from having to actually do that hard work.

Speaker 4 (37:08):
It's it's a cafe.

Speaker 2 (37:10):
It's reliable.

Speaker 3 (37:11):
It's the devil, you know. You know, you're you're at
the at the office. You already know how bad it is.
It's the devil, you know, And I'll just stay in
this or oh, I'm close to retirement, or oh i'm
you know, I have three kids, or oh my health
isn't great this week or this month, or I'm pregnant. Oh,
I'm I can't even begin to tell you how many
people reach out and say but you know, they say,

(37:32):
I'm reaching out to you because I really want to
make a change. Butt, And the butt is never a butt.
It's never a real butt.

Speaker 2 (37:39):
They're leaving that back door open just because because they're like, hey,
I kind of want to talk about this, but really
I don't like, like, yeah, they're choosing not to.

Speaker 4 (37:46):
Choosing it's a choice. Yeah, it's a choice.

Speaker 1 (37:49):
On that note, like, I feel like if you get
laid off, that is when the conversation is inevitable, like, yes,
you gotta find something else.

Speaker 4 (37:58):
Push, Yes, it's your push.

Speaker 1 (38:00):
For a lot of people, it is that push. And
I've seen, like I said, so many people go from
something that they kind of enjoyed or didn't really like
to something that they love, largely because they were pushed
out of the security of the job they had.

Speaker 2 (38:11):
But what would you.

Speaker 1 (38:12):
Say to folks, especially like we talked out at the
beginning of this episode about how the job market it's
not as great as it was a few years ago.
What if you're not loving your job these days, Are
there good reasons to leave even in an economic downturn,
and how should people think about job hopping.

Speaker 3 (38:32):
I would not leave unless you are independently wealthy or
have a lot of money put away that you can live.

Speaker 2 (38:37):
Or you've got the job offer from someone else, you have.

Speaker 3 (38:38):
A job offer from somewhere else, exactly. I would not
leave your current job until you have a new job.
I would, and I wouldn't do that because the market
is so tight and you don't know how long that's
going to take, and less, like I said, you have
the means to do that, then great. I also would
not recommend right now that you try to transition careers.
I think that there are you know, multiple people who

(39:00):
are overqualified or qualified for every single job. They don't
need to hire you who wants to transition careers. It's
not like there's a deficit out there and they need
to find somebody. So I wouldn't highly recommend trying to
transition careers unless it's really close to what you're doing
but a little bit different. So I wouldn't recommend that necessarily.
But I do have people who are doing it right now,

(39:21):
you know, and are working with me, and they are
getting interviews and it's you know again, it's all positioning.
So you know, I wouldn't recommend leaving a job. But
at the same time, I also think life is too
short to sit in a job that you absolutely hate.
And I don't think that you can compartmentalize your work
from your life. I think they both interplay with each other.

(39:42):
And fulfillment is a holistic thing. It is not an
individual thing like og, well, the rest of my life
is great, so I'll just sit over here and be miserable.
It just doesn't work. And so I think you should
start looking and get yourself prepared and figure out what
you want and put your resume together that's forward looking
and start applying for jobs is what you should do.
And quite frankly, network if you're not ready to go

(40:04):
through all of that, start your networking now, And that
means you don't need anything right now. You're just meeting
people and you're getting to know them, and they're getting
to know you, and you're learning about their work and
their needs and their gaps of what they have and
what they're looking for, and you are thinking about it
from the perspective of your experience, and that's you can
never ever underestimate your network and the people that you've

(40:27):
built relationships with because most jobs, that's how you're getting
jobs these days is who you know.

Speaker 1 (40:32):
Yeah, the network is your backbone when it comes to
finding the next job. Or We've got a few more
questions we want to get to with you, marlow including AI.
How does that impact job hunting, both on the positive
and negative fronts. We'll get to that and more right
after this.

Speaker 2 (40:54):
We are back from the break again speaking with marlow
lyons and Joela's referencing AI's The first rule of AI
is to not complain about it because other people it's
when you're posting on LinkedIn, but then eventually AI catches
on and before you know it, you get wipe from
databases left right. Who knows. I don't know how it works, Marlowe.

(41:16):
But but before we get to that, I want to
talk about landing that first job, because for younger listeners
or even parents of teenagers out there, you see that
internships are crucial and that high schoolers and college freshmen
should be partaking. Uh to not wait until you know,
like your junior year of college. Can you kind of
explain the current landscape of internships these days.

Speaker 3 (41:39):
Yes, So internships are critical. That's where you gain experience,
but you also learn what you want and what you
don't want, and they are critical for trying different things.
That's why you're in college is to try different things
and figure yourself out and learn about yourself and learn
about what lights you on fire and what makes you excited.
So you want to start taking internships your freshman year.
I never understood this and all the power to these

(42:02):
kids out there that want to either be camp counselors
or want to be c i ts or whatever they
want to do, because they went to sleep away camp
their whole you know, under you know, when they were
in high school or uptill through high school, and now
they come back from college and they want to go
back and do that again. Unless that's what you want
to do for your career, you're wasting time. Quite frankly,

(42:22):
I don't mean to be rude. I think look, summer
is for having fun, absolutely, but you can also have
fun and do an internship, but you need you need
to get that experience on your resume because when you
don't have that first internship and you're a junior, you're
not going to get the first internship.

Speaker 4 (42:38):
That's the problem.

Speaker 3 (42:39):
You have nothing on your resume, and being a c
I T or a counselor isn't going to help you
if you want to work in biopharma.

Speaker 2 (42:45):
It's just not so oh, I got yeah, you know.
It's so funny is that you you are describing my,
uh my summers as a college undergrad Marlowe, do you
and I don't. I'm not at all upset at you
for calling that because I personally agree with you. I
think that the landscape has changed significantly from like twenty
years ago to graduates today and the kind of effort

(43:07):
that needs to be put forward. If you are serious
about a particular career, you have.

Speaker 3 (43:12):
To put in the effort and know you have friends, right,
your friends have parents, your parents have friends. And then
there's the random application online. Okay, you need to leverage
all of it, all of it to get that first internship.
And it doesn't have to be full time if they don't,
or it doesn't even have to be paid. It doesn't
matter whether it's paid. Nobody asks you whether it was

(43:35):
paid on your resume. It's about gaining skills and experience
and capabilities that maybe you didn't have before, so you
have to do it. I mean, I just worked with
somebody who is in college and was looking for her
first internship, and it's a friend of a friend of
mine's daughter, and so we were working on, you know,

(43:58):
her resume, which was forward looking, right, tried to make
it forward looking and cleaned it up a little bit.
And then on top of that, and she's had great experience,
by the way, she had all these like things that
she did in high school and that kind of thing.
But here we are as a junior trying to get
this this in first, this first big internship with a corporation, right,
the big one that she wanted. And she had interviewed

(44:21):
an over one hundred like or applied to over one
hundred places and wasn't getting anywhere. And so we worked
on and she'd interviewed here and there, but she wasn't
landing the internship. So we worked on her interview skills
to make sure it aligned, you know, with her resume
and the things she needed to be talking about, and
just landed her very first internship in the right job,
like the one, the thing that she wanted, and she's,

(44:42):
you know, out of her mind excited.

Speaker 4 (44:44):
It's about It's about.

Speaker 3 (44:46):
Again, understanding what your narrative is, understanding the value you
can bring. You got to flip it. It's not about
what you want. It's not about I want an internship,
you know, or I want to come and work at
your company so I can put it on my resume.
Its about the value you can bring to that company
during that internship. Can you solve problems? Can you communicate effectively?

(45:07):
Can you help with you know, people who are overworked
and exhausted, right, take some of the work off their
plate and not be more of a burden while also learning.

Speaker 1 (45:16):
Yeah, and that's I think that's particularly true when we're
talking about interns, because interns like they need their hands
to be helped, at least I did when I was
an intern, And so how can I be learn while
I was there while also you know, being of aid
to the company as well. Let's talk about AI Marlowe
because you in a recent article about getting hired in

(45:38):
the age of artificial intelligence. I'm curious from your perspective,
how has like the the burgeoning sector of artificial intelligence
changed the approach that job seekers need to take when
it comes to trying to find a job. Is I'm sure,
there are helpful elements and harmful ones.

Speaker 3 (45:55):
There are lots of people are using AI to draft
their resume. I don't recommend that it's too generic. They're
popping in, you know, the job description and they're popping
in their resume and saying, you know, update my resume
and it's too generic, and it's too It's just it's
not crystal clear is the value you can bring to

(46:17):
the company. And honestly, there's a lot of companies now
that have screeners that can screen out AI generated resumes.
So I would not recommend using AI to write your resume. Now,
if you're working on a bullet point on your resume
and you just you know, it can be cleaner, crisper,
it doesn't sound quite like what you're you know, how

(46:37):
you want it to sound, and you pop it into
you know, Chat, GBT or whatever AI program you're using,
and you say, can you help me make this sound
more dynamic or sound you know more uh succinct. Great,
go for it. Do that for the bullet point here
and there that you need help with. But I wouldn't
recommend it now. I would use AI though, to do
two things. One, I would take the job to descriptions

(47:00):
that you're interested in, and I would pop them into
AI and say, pull out all of the keywords and
all of the skills and capabilities that are needed for
these jobs. That's number one I would do. The second
thing I would do is say you want to be
an HR. I would say, hey, AI, give me all
of the keywords that are needed to be an HR
business partner. Right, most of them are probably in the
job descriptions anyway, but just in case you miss something,

(47:22):
and I would make sure that all of those are
in your resume somewhere.

Speaker 4 (47:26):
So that's how I would.

Speaker 1 (47:27):
Use Is that partly because is the keywords thing? Partly
because when you submit a resume to a company, they're
filtering your resume through AI in order to and so
they wanted those. If those keywords are present, you're more
likely to get that interview.

Speaker 3 (47:42):
Right, they are filtering your resume through an AI program
that is looking for the best match.

Speaker 4 (47:49):
Not everybody has.

Speaker 3 (47:50):
The time to look through two thousand resumes, and so
if you don't have the bare minimum match, it won't
even be surfaced. And then also that goes years of
experience as well, Like if you see something that says
require seven years experience and you have six, don't apply
because if it's a federal contractor, they can't even look
at your resume because it doesn't meet the minimum requirements.

(48:11):
So you have to at least have the minimum requirements
before they'll even look at it. And really, what recruiters
do is they look at the first batch of fifty
that came in, then they look at the next batch
of fifty and the next.

Speaker 4 (48:24):
Batch of fifty.

Speaker 3 (48:25):
And if they have five, six, seven great candidates and
they screen them and they all sound great, they're kind
of done. They're not looking at the last thousand resumes
or the last, you know, eighteen hundred resumes. They're looking
at the first ones that come in. So you have
to apply early. You have to have all the keywords.
You have to ensure that your resume resonates with and
it aligns with and is forward looking to the jobs

(48:47):
that you're applying for. And if you know what you want,
your resume should not need to be revised with every
job you apply for. Because if you want to work
as an HR business partner, the job is the same everywhere.
You might bring value you a little bit differently at
different places, but the job is the same. So if
you did it right the first time, you should not

(49:07):
need to update it. It's when you don't know what
you want that's the problem, and then your resume gets
all convoluted and messy because you're updating it every week.

Speaker 4 (49:14):
You shouldn't have to. If you know what you want.

Speaker 2 (49:17):
Then it just looks like this, yeah, Frankenstein Like, yeah,
as a hack housard and a quilt version of what
your resume actually could be. But I like what you're saying.
What I'm hearing you say is to not overly rely
on AI, like, don't see it as a substitute, but
certainly use it as a tool to help you to
craft what it is that you're looking to put together
for companies out there.

Speaker 1 (49:37):
Marlow, thank you so much for taking the time to
join us today on the show. Where can our listeners
find out more about you and what you're up to?

Speaker 3 (49:44):
Sure, you can find me on my website which is
Marlow Lyonscoaching dot com. You can listen to my podcast
Work Unscripted. I am on all the socials. You can
find me on LinkedIn, on Instagram, Facebook, I sometimes I
do a little bit of TikTok here and there. I'm

(50:05):
not great on TikTok to be honest with you, so
you can find me in all those different places, and
you know, feel free to reach out if anybody needs
any help with their career.

Speaker 2 (50:13):
Thank you so much for taking the time to talk
with us, duday Ay Marlow.

Speaker 4 (50:16):
You are welcome. It was great chatting with you guys.

Speaker 1 (50:18):
All right, Matt, Let's hope everyone out there listening gets
to keep the job they have if.

Speaker 2 (50:23):
They love it. Let's hope for the best, and let's
also hope that if they have a plan for the worst. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (50:28):
Maybe, yeah, maybe this is like the kick in the
pants that that some of our listeners need to start
hunting for something that they're going to be more happy
to go to listen.

Speaker 2 (50:36):
To you adopting the kick in the pants and your
language of yeah, I want to let you go first.
As far as the big take away, because I wrote
down so much, like there's so many notes that I
took and nice not one liners, but just great pieces
of wisdom when it comes to looking at your new
potential career out there. But I think one of the
most game changing things that she said in this conversation

(50:58):
was think about what you want to do versus what
you can do.

Speaker 1 (51:01):
And if I were versus the can Yeah, if I
look at some of my early work experience, well, hey
I can work in fast food. I can do some
pressure washing here and there. I mean there are just
some jobs that I worked for a printer printing shop
for a while, Like, those are things that I could do.
There weren't things I wanted to do long term. They
worked for the time, right, but I had my sights

(51:23):
set on other things, like things that really did light
me up. And so I think the further you get
in your career, the harder it can be to think
about your resume and to think about your next job
prospect in that way. But I think it is really
important because work is something we do spend a fair
amount of our time in our lives doing, and it's

(51:44):
I don't think it's that we should look for this
and all be all job that helps us feel fulfilled
in every single way. I mean there are other elements
of our lives too that matter, family, friends, right, stuff
like that.

Speaker 2 (51:54):
Community. But I think it's okay to say, what is
it that I.

Speaker 1 (51:59):
Actually want to do with my life and with my
forty hours or whatever that I'm giving to work each
and every week and let that at least start to
make your mind run wild in a good way about
what's possible.

Speaker 2 (52:11):
Totally. Yeah. In a similar note, when she was talking
about getting your resume together, she is talking about how
it's not about what you've done, but it's about what
you've done that's relevant to what you want to do.
And I love that. Like everything that she said today
had a similar melody to it, where it's very much
forward looking as opposed to backwards looking. And that's essentially

(52:32):
what you're pointing to here as well. It's not about
what you've done in the past, it's about what you
want to do in the future. And my big takeaway
is going to be about for folks out there who
have been fired. She said three things you got to
post on LinkedIn, so you need to be proactive, and
she talked about the algorithm and why that plays your favor.
You got to leave the house, so whether it's networking
or going out for coffee, like literally being out there

(52:53):
irl brushing shoulders with people. That's going to pay dividends.
But then aside from that, you got to take care
of yourself as well. Figure out the things. They're going
to keep your energy levels up so that you don't
enter into some sort of like depressive spiral where you know,
in a few months, a few months down the road,
you don't even find yourself having a desire to do anything. Yeah.
I felt like there was three awesome takeaways for folks
who might find themselves in this position already.

Speaker 1 (53:15):
Yeah, agreed. All right, let's get back to the beer
real quick. This is called art Car I PA by
Saint Arnold Brewing out of Texas. Or your thoughts on
this IPA, brother.

Speaker 2 (53:25):
It's just funny you called me brother, and it's got
like a stained glass looking I don't know, a minister, Yeah,
a minister what do you call it? What do you
call that kind of work, like like a priest, bishop
or something. Yeah, which is funny because this is a
beer out of Texas and you don't typically associate the
Catholic Church with beer cans, but this brewery is called

(53:46):
Saint Arnold, that is called I'd be curious to st Arnold. Yeah. Uh,
this was like a classic American I PA. It wasn't
overly bitter, It drinked really clean, It didn't have like
that huge vegetable hot freshness going on. This feels like, oh,
classic American IPA be really good.

Speaker 1 (54:02):
This reminds me of another i PA we had from
Texas recently that just had that It wasn't like the hazy,
juicy variety, but it also wasn't the super bitter, overwewhelmingly
West Coast vibes that the rose smash. Yeah, and I'm like, oh,
this is this is like that. This might be a
little further in the West Coast direction from that one,
but it maybe Texas. Man, they're doing i pas differently

(54:22):
and good stuff. I can respect it.

Speaker 2 (54:24):
Totally agree. All Right, that's gonna be it for this episode,
and find our show notes up on the website, and
we'll link to Marlow's recent books and where you can
check those out. Of course, our website is howtomoney dot com.
The Buddy. That's gonna be it. So until next time,
best Friends Out, best Friends Out.

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