DIY or Delegate: the Financial Advisor Conundrum w/ Pam Krueger #1055

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Welcome to How to Money. I'm Joel and today I'm
talking DIY or delegate the financial advisor conundrum with Pam Kruger. Okay,

(00:27):
so a financial advisor won't fix your money problems, but
many folks assume that by hiring a pro they're well
on their way to financial success. Maybe maybe not. That
depends on a bunch of different factors that we're going
to discuss today. And if you want to hire an
advisor but you're not sure where to start, we're going
to talk about that too. Pam Kruger is an investor advocate.

(00:50):
She co hosted money Track on PBS for many years.
She's also the founder of wealth ramp dot com, which
is a really big part of what we're gonna it's
going to enter into this conversation. She cares deeply about
helping individual investors make wise decisions. So, Pam, thank you
so much for joining me today on the show.

Speaker 2 (01:10):
Thank you, Jil it's a pleasure.

Speaker 3 (01:13):
So glad to have you here.

Speaker 1 (01:15):
We connected last week and I just really enjoyed getting
to know you, and I was like, oh my gosh,
I have to have Pam on to talk about financial
advisors because this is one of those pitfalls that people
so often face. But before we get into that, I
want to know what you splore, John, your craft beer equivalent,
because that's something I'm spending money on fiercely even while
I'm trying to save and invest for my future. Is

(01:36):
what's your splurge.

Speaker 2 (01:38):
I'm trying not to add to any weight around the
middle of the waste, so it's not going to be
the beer this time. But I'm telling you last weekend
I had a real tussle with myself because I want
to upgrade my bike and I'm going to I was
thinking about trading my bike in and then I came

(01:58):
home and I said, Pam, nine hundred dollars versus I'm
doing some work in the kitchen, and you know you
can't do it all.

Speaker 3 (02:08):
That's true.

Speaker 2 (02:08):
So yeah, I had to pull myself back from the brink.

Speaker 1 (02:11):
But if you want someone to sign off to co
sign your expense on upgrading your bike, you've come to
the right place. Because I'm bike obsessed as well, so
I'm going to get.

Speaker 2 (02:21):
Some emotional support from you.

Speaker 1 (02:23):
Then I say go for it. We're talking e bike,
were talking road bike, Like.

Speaker 2 (02:27):
What are you looking a bike? It's a road bike.
It's just you. I love my bike, but I tested
over one this weekend and I fell in love. And
of course the owner of the bike shop was like, Pam,
such a deal I can give you if I trade
this in and do that and do this. I got
excited in the moment, but I did the smart thing, Joel.
I did the smart thing. I said, give myself a

(02:49):
cool off period. Yes, go home and think about it,
and if you feel that way by next weekend, go
for it. But if it starts to dwindle, maybe let
it go.

Speaker 1 (03:00):
The waiting period is clutch. And my daughter realized that
recently talked about that on the show where she wanted
a vintage cabbage patch doll, and I love that. She
was like, you know what, I'm gonna sit on this overnight,
and then she ended up saying it's worth the money.
I'm gonna go back and get it. But that sort
of patience is oh good. It's hard for most of

(03:21):
us to muster up. So I'm glad that you were
able to do that. Even if you ultimately end up
purchasing this bike, I think it'll be more fulfilling because
you waited and you decided. Now this is for real
what I want.

Speaker 2 (03:32):
I agree, and I'm glad your daughter did the cool
off too. All it's mixed for a better decision, right,
She's a she's.

Speaker 1 (03:37):
A smart cookie. I don't know where it comes from. Okay,
So you, Pam, you are. You're incredibly knowledgeable on the
money in investing front. You've been in this space for
a long time. And we're going to talk about financial
advisors a lot. There's so much to get into on
the nitty gritty of finding an advisor, whether or not
you need an advisor. I just want to start off
by asking, do you personally have a financial advisor?

Speaker 2 (03:59):
Yes? And no. Well, I don't want to eat I
don't want to drink my own kool aid all the time.
I need somebody who's going to be coming into my
life every now and again to spot check to make
sure that I'm really seeing the numbers that that I
don't just want to see, but that are real. I
need somebody to challenge me, you know, and say, have

(04:21):
you thought about it this way, if you thought about
it that way, what if this? What if that? So
right now, it Joel's kind of on a spotty basis,
but the time's going to come when I Am going
to get closer to retirement. And when that day comes,
there's no question about it, I'm going to want to
engage with somebody on an ongoing basis because for me personally,
I don't want to do all the tax loss harvesting

(04:44):
and roth conversion decisions and timing. And I call it
like the maintenance of the garden. Right, You've got to feed,
you've got to weed, you've got a deadhead. You've got
to do everything planting in your portfolio so it'll grow
for you. You either want to do some of it yourself,
all of it yourself, or not of it yourself.

Speaker 1 (05:05):
Yeah, and it just sometimes it just depends on what
place you are at in your financial journey. So, especially
given the audience we're talking to here, we've got a
lot of people who are keen to try the DIY thing.
We've got a lot of younger listeners who are like
financial Advisor. I mean, I'm just trying to figure out
a budget and start putting money in my four to

(05:26):
oh one K or they've made some progress, let's say,
and they're like, I've built up a decent nest egg.
I don't know if a financial advisor is right for me.
And I feel like from the financial advisor industry, what
we often hear is that they're the silver bullet, right,
this is the key that unlocks your ability to achieve
financial success, and that a financial advisors for everybody. Is

(05:47):
that true or false?

Speaker 2 (05:48):
False? No, not at all. You are the silver bullet.
And whether or not you use and I'll put it
that way, you use it advice or financial coaches expertise,
you're paying for that time. You're paying for their expertise,
and you're paying for their advice. You are the silver bullet.

(06:09):
You want to go into it knowing exactly what you're
expecting to get out of it and exactly what you're
getting for the money, and you want to understand exactly
how you're paying the advisor and why you're paying the advisor.
When you do that, then you're in control.

Speaker 1 (06:22):
You mentioned a financial coach, and that's something I squarely
agree with you here on especially, and you are someone
who runs a website that helps people find a financial advisor,
and so I just appreciate your honesty and integrity and
saying that it doesn't it's not the best move for
most folks. A money coach or somebody along those lines,
And there are accredited, accredited status that some people in

(06:45):
that industry are getting. There a few different certifications you
can get. I wholeheartedly agree with you, Especially in the
beginning of your money journey, whether it's self being self
taught or finding somebody in that orbit, it can make
a lot more sense. So, yeah, do you think for
for people in those early stages, that's usually a place
you should turn instead of going directly to like the

(07:07):
super pro buttoned up financial advisor you could.

Speaker 2 (07:11):
You probably don't have a ton of complexity in your
life at this point, so certainly at that point in
your life, it's not about getting an advisor. If you
felt you needed some guidance, the very very first place
I would go is I'm gonna preface this by saying
that free advice is usually pretty expensive. In other words,

(07:34):
it usually sucks.

Speaker 1 (07:35):
Yeah, I thought you were gonna say, chat CHEPT. I
was hoping that that's not the case.

Speaker 2 (07:39):
Yeah, that does suck because thirty five percent of the
time the answers are wrong. Go check it out. Go
check it out. You already know, but you unless you know,
Unless you check it you maybe you don't know thirty
five percent of the time is too much for me.
What one out of every three questions I'm going to
ask it has to do with my life is going
to be wrong. I mean, chatchp, he's fantastic for somethings.

(08:01):
But let's let's go back to the guidance from the
human that we're thinking about. When the first place I
like to go is free, Okay, now that's I'm saying
that with a caveat amp. Tour of free advice is
usually not so great because your uncle, your uncle Bob

(08:22):
might say I've got some free advice for your dol,
and that might not be very good advice at all,
because you know, he might have made a disaster out
of his financial life.

Speaker 1 (08:31):
Don't throw my uncle under the bus, pam, Okay, not that.

Speaker 2 (08:34):
Uncle, that's right, right. So let's say that you're young,
you know, meaning you're in your twenties, you know, you
might be in your thirties, and you're you're either trying
to get out of debt, you're trying to figure out
the steps to build wealth. You're trying to figure out
how am I going to find the money ever for
a down payment on a house? How am I going
to find the money to put in my four own
K just to get the free match money that's available.

(08:56):
So it all starts with you and you deciding you
have an appetite to learn. Now, everybody listening here has
an appetite to learn, or they wouldn't be here. And
so once you're at that point, you say, now I
want some guidance beyond chat GPT. Then I say, look
to the free resources that are available that can support
you in the coaching realm. Whereas that maybe where you work.

(09:20):
Maybe where you work, the benefits that you have at
work may well include financial wellness. That means that there
are coaches. Many times there's cfps, but they're accredited. Generally speaking,
they might be certified financial Wellness coach. That's the person
you can go to and you can say, here's my situation.

(09:43):
I'd like to learn more about, you know, figuring out
how I can both pay down debt at the same
time I can start investing. But I don't want to
invest stupidly. I've done my homework. I'm interested in the
following things. And then you start a dialogue. Now that
costs you nothing because your employer is paying for it.

(10:04):
But you're not going to get one on one like
strategic advice and tax planning and stay planning, and you
don't need that, but you're going to get some coaching.
The other way is to go on your own in
search of a coach. We have coaches on our platform
that we recommend to people when they say, yeah, I'm
willing to spend a little bit of money to subscribe,

(10:25):
or it's like me going to yoga, you know what
I mean Online, I will pay something if it's a
great yoga class and I'm going to get something out
of it. So that's where coaching can really help you
to really figure out. Mostly a lot of times it's
just your behavior and you're managing your day to day money,
and frankly, sometimes it's to give you encouragement that you're

(10:47):
not alone, don't beat yourself up. Everything costs money and
you're trying to make ends meet and live paycheck to paycheck.
It's just sometimes the coach is really the coach like
really helping you emotionally and behaviorally.

Speaker 1 (11:02):
And one of the things that is really crucial too
is kind of developing a taste for learning about personal
finance and becoming a perpetual learner. I think in that space,
I think some people assume outsourcing.

Speaker 3 (11:17):
I don't really care.

Speaker 1 (11:17):
I don't care about this topic. Let me outsource this,
hire it out, and you can do that with something.
So you cannot care about how bogonias grow and have
a gardener that tends to that for you. But when
it comes to your personal finance, nobody's going to care
about your money as much as you do. And in fact,
if you know nothing about it, there's a good chance
you're going to hire someone who's not actively working in

(11:39):
your best interest. So not knowing anything and just hiring out,
that's a recipe for failure too.

Speaker 2 (11:44):
Right, Absolutely, if you go into it, no matter who
you are, no matter how little or how much money
you've saved, no matter how big your problem is or
your challenge or your goal. You want to be in
the fire movement, you want to retire early. It doesn't
matter what you want to accomplish. What really matters is

(12:04):
that you are the driver, and any guidance that you're
going to get, they're sitting in the passenger seat next
to you, right, But you want to be the driver. Now,
Some people get to a point where they know the
advisors so well, and they have a lot of money
that they need to have managed their portfolio. They want

(12:25):
their portfolio managed. But they're still going to stay in
the car, so they switch seats, so they go in
the passenger seat. But the reason that I use this
car analogy is because you're looking out the windshield together
and you're seeing the same weather conditions, the same economy,
the same questions you have about policies on tariffs or

(12:47):
whatever it might be, or what's going on with inflation,
or what's going to happen with the stock market. You
are learning on that journey and you may not realize it,
but the little bits of knowledge that you're gaining, and
this is predicated on the fact that you that the
idea that you have the right advisor, Joel, not just
an advisor, not just a coach.

Speaker 3 (13:05):
You have the right coach, the right plug and play.

Speaker 1 (13:08):
Just get any generic person it kind of suit who
has initials after their name, right.

Speaker 2 (13:13):
But I don't know too many people that are going
to walk up to their car and tell the advisor, Okay,
here are the keys, get in. I hope you drive
carefully by the way, let me know how it goes, right, not.
Most people don't let their savings get driven off into
the sunset. If the advisor is pushing that at the
get go, and you know, asking you to delegate everything

(13:36):
and doesn't want to spend time with you, and isn't
very generous with their time and their knowledge, and you're
not going to learn anything, best to head out the door.
That's not the sign of a good collaboration. You can
definitely delegate and have the advisor do the driving if
you don't want to manage your portfolio, or we can
go back to the gardening, you know, if you don't
want to do it all, but don't leave completely. You

(13:59):
want to make sure that you that's what's going to
give you the confidence is because you actually understand the
financial plan. You understand the tax minimization strategy. It's also
aligned with the investment strategy that's also connected to your
family and your plans and your real estate. So you
need to be in and present an accounted for at

(14:21):
these meetings or don't do it.

Speaker 1 (14:24):
So some people listening like would fall into that group
of well, my assets are too small anyway, I'm just
not ready to work with advisor. I'm going to DIY
route I'm trying to get to critical mass, but some
advisors are pretty picky about who they'll work with, and
they wouldn't want to work with those clients anyway. Do
you see that as a problem in that industry, that

(14:47):
people who want to work with an advisor, they want
to find somebody to be their co pilot, but then
they get told, sorry, you don't have enough money for
me to work with you. How big of a problem
is that?

Speaker 2 (14:58):
The problem is binding the knowing that there are lots
of advisors who work with clients who have, you know,
very small amounts of money. Lots. The problem is you
can't find them, and you don't know where to look,
and you don't know what the quality is, and it's
hard to vet them. But you have to go find
them because most of the big firms that advertise on

(15:21):
TV or wherever they're going to have minimums of you know,
half million, a million, and there are advisors in my
network who want to have a minimum of five million.
But when people come to me looking for and they've
got maybe seventy five thousand dollars to one hundred thousand
dollars saved, and they do want an advisor or they've

(15:41):
got two hundred and fifty thousand. They're not going to
come to me and find that they're getting shot out.
I have already curated a network that is a constellation
of different advisors with different expertise and different types of clients.
It's perfectly okay for an advisory firm to say we
specialize in clients who are very complex. Let's say that

(16:03):
it's a they work with founders of startups, and those
startup founders generally end up with you know, five million
dollars plus because they sold their shares, their equity, and
they had stock options all that time. That kind of
tax advice be goes hand in hand with that type
of client might mean that that particular advisor says, that's

(16:25):
my client, that's who I specialize in. So no, I'm
not going to talk to Joel who has fifty thousand.

Speaker 3 (16:31):
Dollars who runs the stupid podcast.

Speaker 2 (16:33):
And other advisors are the opposite, and they're going to say,
I specialize in working with young people who are mid
career and finding that their lives are changing and now
they have to juggle kids, house, you know, everything under
the sun, and as they age, complexity gets a little

(16:54):
bit more and they specialize. So advisors do specialize in
different types of clients.

Speaker 1 (16:59):
Are like rules of thumb for somebody listening, and they're like,
I don't know where I fall on the spectrum. They're like,
is an advisor? Am I at the right point in
my life where an advisor makes sense? Or not? What
rules of thumb might you tell them? Or what questions
might you prod them with to help them decide whether

(17:20):
or not hiring somebody makes sense?

Speaker 2 (17:22):
That this juncture usually jo When people come to me,
it's because they've hit some sort of obstacle or they
feel that they've gone to the edges of their own
ability to Maybe it's managed your own portfolio using digital tools,
maybe it's investing in ETFs or whatever. Wherever they're at

(17:45):
in their journey, they get to a point where they say,
I feel like I've done everything I can do myself,
and now it's time for fresh eyes. Now the fresh
eyes could simply be coaching and guidance, and you might
be able to get that, you know, free financial wellness
at work, or hire a coach, or you might say, no,

(18:09):
I actually need actionable advice that I can actually get specific,
prescriptive advice that I'll pay for. Here's the difference between
what you get from a coach and what you get
from a financial advisor. A coach is going to say
the following, You're going to come to me with a problem.
You're going to explain it. I'm going to kind of,

(18:31):
you know, say it back to you, and then I'm
going to say, if I were you, I'd look at this, Joel.
If I were you, I would look at that, Joel,
and point out the things that you can then take
home as your homework. You've got guidance, but you're going
to do it on your own. You're going to execute

(18:51):
everything on your own. An advisor is different. An advisor
is a fiducial. Make sure and we'll talk about that too,
that they are conduciary and that means they're giving you
actionable advice. So I'm going to say, I'm the advisor,
and I'm now going to say, well, Joel, let's look

(19:11):
at what would happen if we did do that, if
we put some money into private investments, we put this,
we did that, we had this money toward a house,
and they're going to say, this is what that would
look like. Here's what I recommend that you don't do
and do do. That is an advisor, because they're giving
you advice that you're then going to go out and

(19:32):
act upon. That's why it's so critically important that if
you do seek advice, not just guidance and coaching, but
actual advice, it must be from an advisor who's accountable,
legally accountable for it at the fiduciary level. Which that's
why that's so important.

Speaker 1 (19:52):
I want to get into that. I want to talk
about the fiduciary necessity. I just want to start out, though,
by asking. You said at one point that only a
small fraction of advisors are worth trusting.

Speaker 2 (20:07):
That's correct.

Speaker 3 (20:07):
Why why are there so many bad apples in the
space there is?

Speaker 2 (20:11):
It's not that there are so many bad apples. There's
a lot of mediocre apples. I don't want mediocre. I
don't even want good. I don't even want pretty good
or good. I want outstanding and exceptional. So now here's
the secret that everybody will love knowing this. You're going
to pay the same fee for the outstanding advisor and

(20:33):
the outstanding advice as you are for the pretty good.
So wouldn't you rather find the outstanding and the exceptional.

Speaker 3 (20:41):
Why is that?

Speaker 1 (20:41):
Why are we not paying more for to get the best?
Why are the best not charging more? Why are they
charging roughly the same amount as the mediocre.

Speaker 2 (20:50):
Sometimes charging less. The best of the best are out there.
They're humble, they're not out boasting and bragging, they're not
spending gobs of money in advertising. They're just really really competent,
highly qualified, they care deeply about their clients, and they're humble,
so they don't walk around, you know, with a lot

(21:12):
of arrogance and you know, cookie cutter and all that.
So what happens is when you go to an advisor
who's mediocre or cookie cutter, you're going to pay whatever
the going rate is. Okay, if you also compared that
to an advisor who happens to be exceptional, then you're
going to find that the outstanding or exceptional advisor has

(21:35):
the exact same type of fee, but the difference is
the quality of the individual. That's why it's so important
to if you are going to spend money on an
advisor or coach that you absolutely just really take it
very thoughtfully, because if I'm going to listen to this person,

(21:56):
I need to make sure that this person is actually
all that I need them to be, especially in a pinch.
I want to know I can call you on a
Saturday and even if you're not right there, I know
I'm going to hear right back from you pretty quickly,
and that you know me. There's a lot of variables.

Speaker 1 (22:15):
I want to talk about finding the top tier apples
because I think it's such an important piece of this.
And how do you know the mediocre from the great.
Talk to me about the fiduciary standard versus the suitability standard.
What do people need to know when they're trying to
pick an advisor. And most people would think, if I'm
hiring an advisor, well, I'm guessing they're going to do

(22:37):
what's in my best interest, but they might not be
required to. And so how do you know the difference
and what to look.

Speaker 2 (22:44):
For the history of the industry was never this industry
financial services that we know with the big brand names.
That was never predicated on advice. That was always predicated
on sales. It's a sales model I used to do
when I was twenty four years old and then I
was a vice president. I used to do this way

(23:05):
back in the day.

Speaker 1 (23:06):
So what do you mean by that it was predicated
on sales, which means that it wasn't about giving you
the best advice. It was getting you in their products
that made them the most money.

Speaker 2 (23:15):
It wasn't about advice at all. It really wasn't when I,
especially when I was there, and I remember, you know,
this is kind of a history lesson, but remember you
know back in the old days when I was there,
and I'm talking about the eighties, you know, I go
on the wayback machine. This was before the internet. So, Joel,
what did we have as brokers? We were called stockbrokers.

(23:36):
Do you remember that term stockbroker?

Speaker 3 (23:38):
I do, Okay.

Speaker 2 (23:39):
We weren't called advisors. We worked at big brokerage firms,
and we were stock brokers. So the whole point was
that we had information you didn't have, the public didn't have.
So when you would come to me, I was able
to explain to you what was happening with a company
and its earnings and its research because my brokerage firm
generated this really expensive research and I would share that

(24:02):
with you if you were a client. So we were
brokering information and we were helping people execute trades, and
we were explaining and recommending the kinds of things that
we sold, like mutual funds, things like that. So that
model has nothing to do with tax planning, nothing to
do with the state planning, nothing to do with pulling
all the pieces together holistically and looking at your spouse

(24:23):
and your family and your kids, and you know it
does your real estate. It has to do with back then,
we were there to be stock brokers. Therefore, the SEC
never looked at brokerage firms and said we need to
regulate you, and you need to be held to the
fiduciary standard that we hold investment advisors to, which is

(24:46):
up here. Instead, as long as you make recommendations to
the public that are suitable, then that's defensible. That's okay.
Over here on the other side of the of the
other say, channel of advisors who are out there, real
financial advisors who are out there working directly for clients.

(25:08):
They don't work at brokerage firms. They work independently and
they only get paid by their clients. And the SEC
in the state says, okay, we're going to consider you
financial advisors, not just representing products and services from a
big firm. You are actually paid by the client to

(25:28):
give that client advice, and therefore we need you to
be held to a higher legal standard called the fiduciary standard,
which means by law you are bound and obligated to
follow best practices at the fiduciary standard, which means if
you're an advisor, you got a lot more on the
hook over here than you would if you worked at

(25:51):
a brokerage firm. So when I worked at a brokerage firm,
I was shielded and I wasn't really worried that if
I gave you some bumb advice that I was going
to get sued over here, the financial advisor who's fiduciary
has a huge liability their response.

Speaker 1 (26:08):
If they put me in something that isn't in my
best interest, there's.

Speaker 2 (26:12):
A lawsuit that can coluse their practice.

Speaker 1 (26:13):
But if they are not held to the fiduciary standard,
as an individual, I don't really have much recourse.

Speaker 2 (26:20):
No, you don't have much recourse. And so as a result,
there's this whole bifurcation in this financial services industry. So
think of it if you would, as a fork in
the road. The fork in the road is ninety percent
of the folks who are at financial advisors in the
United States the vast majority ninety percent work for brokerage

(26:43):
firms or insurance companies, and they are now called advisors.
Where they used to be called brokers or insurance agents,
now they're called advisors. But over here on the road
less traveled is a much smaller swarth of real advisors
called fiduciary fee only advisors. There's about sixty thousand of

(27:05):
the five hundred thousand, sixty thousand in the United States
who operate at the fiduciary level that practice legally at
the fiduciary level.

Speaker 1 (27:15):
If there's a big brand name attached to somebody who's
trying to help me manage my money, is that a
red flag? I Like, I've seen their commercials while I
was watching football, and this guy works for that company,
So maybe I should join forces. That's the company that
I should go with.

Speaker 2 (27:35):
Yeah, I know. Look, you know some of my really
good friends work at brokerage firms. Would I go to
a brokerage firm for advice? That would be like, why
would I go to a Why would I go to
an organization that's not to chooses, Remember Joel, they choose
not to be fiduciary. Yeah, why would I choose to

(27:58):
get my most important money advice from someone who chooses
to not be held legally to the highest fiduciary standard.
Went over here. Now now it's a pain in the neck.
NA got to go out and I've got to find
this individual. These individuals, they're not just in the smaller
firms and boutique firms who are independent. They don't work

(28:19):
at brokerage firms, but they're held to that higher standard.
So that's the way you have to look at it.

Speaker 1 (28:25):
Like going to Taco Bell for health food. You might
be able to find it there, but that's not what
they specialize.

Speaker 2 (28:30):
You've got to just understand follow the money. What happens
at a brokerage firm. It's really they don't work for you.
The people at the brokerage firm don't work for you.
They work for the brokerage firm. The advisors over here
who are fiduciaris legally, they're on the hook because they
answer to you. You're the one paying them. Yeah, I

(28:53):
mean you're still paying commissions. You're still paying the commissions
when you buy the products at the brokerage firm. But
the actual the actual well advisor sitting in a chair
working for a brokerage firm representing the brokerage firms interests.
They're not representing your interest to represent the brokerage firms interests.

Speaker 1 (29:10):
So you've said fee only multiple times. I want to
talk about that, how advisors get paid, what we should
expect from them, how to interview and find a great
advisor that makes sense for your needs if you're looking
for one. We've got a lot more questions to get
to with Pam. We'll hit those up right after this.

(29:33):
Right we'll back still talk with Pam Krueger talking about
financial advisors, and we're going deep. We're getting into the
nitty gritty about how advisors get paid, whether or not
an advisor makes sense for you, and I'm guessing for
some listeners out there, financial advisor makes a ton of
sense for you given where you're at in your financial journey,
and for others of you out there, it would be
a terrible idea at this juncture. And then even if

(29:57):
a financial advisor is right for you right now, how
do you go about finding the right one? So much
to cover, and one thing, I think it's interesting like
advisors seem to offer a wider array of services now,
which is kind of awesome, Like I love that it
feels like they can. It used to be this thought
of like, yeah, it's just the products that they're selling you.
And now we're seeing advisors say no, no, we want

(30:18):
to help you, like plan for decades. What should we
want or expect from advisors on that front in terms
of what ground they're going to cover.

Speaker 2 (30:27):
Advisors who have always been fiduciaries and always been I
won't get to the feel only in a second that
the fiducieries they've always had to look contextually. They've had
to look at your whole big picture. They can't give
you advice on one little slice of your life unless
they know how it interplays with everything else you're doing

(30:47):
in your life and your family. So there's no there's
no way that they that they would do. Then how
do you find the advisors who offer not only offer this,
but are again exceptional and not just mediocre. That's where
the vetting comes in, and it takes time, and that's
why it's so important that all I ask is, you know,

(31:09):
just stop at this threshold the minute you think you
need help, and just slow your mind down a little bit,
take it one step at a time and think about
how am I going to vet the advisor starting with yes,
they are offering more services. So I want to start
with myself at the center of the world here, and
I want to say, what am I trying to accomplish?

(31:33):
Why do I think I might ever need an advisor?
What is it that I'm trying to do. Some people
are going to answer that question and they're going to say,
I want to buy rental properties, and in addition to
my full time job, I want to become a landlord
and I want to invest in real estate. And others

(31:54):
might say I want want to learn more about alternative investments,
and I want to know figure out how I'm going
to you know, buy buy, purchase my first time home.
Let's say it's not for rental purposes, but just you
want to buy your first time home. You want to
get ready for retirement, you want to make sure you're

(32:15):
fortified for that. So I want to start with myself
as the center point and say, what do I need
that will help guide me to What kinds of advisor
services do I really need? What do I need the
advisor to know the most about and specialize in If
that advisor is really going to help me what do
they need to really specialize in. Well, I want to

(32:36):
make sure they've got clients that are like me and
are in my same situation, so that I know that
this is their this is their wheelhouse. So that's the
way I approach it. Because advisors who advise holistically, and
that's every fiduciary, advisors whose feeling is going to give
you the whole picture. So now it's just up to you, Joel,

(32:59):
to figure out what do I really want to accomplish.
And it could be I want a one time engagement.
I don't want to get married to the advisor. Yeah,
I don't want to pay the advisor forever. I just
want to know, should I if I took this position
over here, or if I started this business over here,
and if I did this with my money? Oh, my

(33:20):
head's going to explode. I think I want to talk
to a financial advisor. Can you buy some time? Can
you buy some hours straight up and get some really
good advice from an advisor who specializes in advising small
business owners? Heck, yeah, yeah, you can find that kind
of help.

Speaker 1 (33:37):
Or you're getting an inheritance and the stakes are up
and you're like, I want someone to talk to for
two or three hours now, But I don't necessarily need
a full financial plan worked up. It depends on yeah,
where you find yourself. Let's dial in on fee only
for a second, because there some financial advisors are fee based,

(33:58):
and fee based sounds likely, but it's not fee only.
And why are you such a proponent of the fee
only model? Why is that like at the crux of
it feels like that's at the crux of what you
require from advisors, oh, is to have this fee only model.

Speaker 2 (34:15):
I am so sorry that this industry has gotten to
the point where we're talking so stupidly fee based fee
only consumers are supposed to know the difference. It's ridiculous
we this industry. What a mess we have made at
a making financial advice makes sense. It's so stupidly complicated
for no good reason. Fee only means the advisor is

(34:40):
compensated only by fees that come directly from the client,
so that we make sure that that advisor only works
for the client. Let me give you an example. You say, Okay,
I want a fee only advisor. Why because I want
to talk about everything under the sun. And if he
starts talking about it or she starts talking about insurance,

(35:01):
I want to make sure that they don't sell insurance
and get commissions, because how am I ever going to
get an unbiased opinion about something like insurance from the
guy who sells insurance. So you're taking out all the
incentives that you possibly can for that person to benefit
by recommending one thing over another, and you're putting the

(35:23):
focus squarely on evaluating everything under the sun and looking
at what would be best for you because they work
directly for you, So fee only means their fee comes
only from you, not from commissions. Fee based is remember
that fork in the road. Okay, fee only is its

(35:46):
own fork. This is the road less traveled. The road
over here, the main highway includes fee based. That means
that I get paid as an advisor both by selling
some insurance getting commissions by the way, that's coming out
of your pocket, and I also charge your fees, so

(36:07):
I kind of do both. So that's a high bred model.

Speaker 1 (36:12):
Does the fe based advisor have or there are they
potentially putting you in more expensive funds because they stand
to benefit from that as well, Whereas like the fee
only advisor is more apt to steer you towards low
cost funds.

Speaker 2 (36:26):
The fee only advisor's job is to make sure that
the fees are as low as possible. Yeah, across every
investment you make, because Juell, you're paying me, So my
job is to get your returns as high as possible.
Make sure that I get your tax planning done, all
of what you need for as little as possible. So
if I go stupidly pick a fund that has some

(36:47):
big expense to it, they're better will be a good
reason because it better pay off, because that's going to
come back on me as the advisor. I'm accountable. The
fee based is going to make the case, well, this
is a really good fund, and you know, I can
justify why I would recommend this fund to this client,

(37:12):
and you have to. There's no way to read their
mind and know whether or not they're incentivized to push
that particular fund because it pays them more and they're
going to make their mortgage payment that month because they
sold that to you. But I mean, you don't want
to put yourself in a situation like that in the
first place. You just want to say, look, if I'm

(37:33):
going to get advice, i'd rather know that it's a
straight up relationship. Yeah, I'm paying the advisor. I know
what I'm paying the advisor as one hundred percent transparent,
They're legally required to explain it to me, and I
know this advisor's working for me and me only.

Speaker 1 (37:49):
We know looking at evidence that individuals have a really
hard time outperforming the stock market, especially for any meaningful
length of time. Is that something that some financial advisors
are touting, is like, Hey, I've got super duper skills
when it comes to stock picking and choosing the right funds,
and we're going to outperform this other guy down the street.

(38:11):
Is that something that people are marketing themselves on. Is
that something that people should be aware of when they're
looking at for an advisor and maybe be wary of.

Speaker 2 (38:18):
They're really big red flag because you know, diversification wins
all battles. And by now we know that people have
one gotten way ahead just by not trying to pick
horses and bet on different horses in the race, but
actually bet on the entire race. And that's and by
the time it's all said and done, you know, the

(38:39):
research has proven itself. However, However, Joel, what if you
were the person who said, ah ah, I don't want
those average stock market s and p returns. I want
something fancier. Can I find an advisor who specializes in
something fancier? Yes, you can't. Now vetting that advisor and

(39:01):
their fee only, I would run the other direction. If
this came in boasting and bragging about their great returns
and how fabulous they are, it's a red flag. But
I have many I have two hundred and thirty advisors
in my network, and I have many who say yes,
of course, I'm a CFA, which means charted financial analyst,

(39:24):
and we can come up with portfolios that are personalized fugeel.
We don't need to just invest in Vanguard s and
p or you don't have to be a bugle head.
We can do something other than that and be very tactical. Yes,
you can find it, but again it comes down to
the vetting to make sure that that advisor is truly

(39:46):
competent and qualified to have a great condemonstrate that they
have the knowledge in the understanding to offer those kinds
of strategies.

Speaker 1 (39:55):
We covered fee only, but I'm curious, what does it
look like to actually pay your advisor and does it
depend because because it's probably unless it is that select
occasion where I really am just looking for a few
hours of advice, and yes, I can find somebody via
that model, but what is it, how much is it
going to cost, and how how am I actually going

(40:17):
to pay them? Because fee only, there's still different ways
that I can pay the advisor under a fee only model, right.

Speaker 3 (40:23):
So absolutely, yeah, explain.

Speaker 2 (40:25):
That there are some advisors and some in my network
who will say I want to keep my client based small.
I'm a portfolio manager who does financial planning, estate planning,
and tax planning. So therefore, I am going to have
one model for fee only, which means I'm going to
charge you based on the assets that I'm managing for you.

(40:46):
In other words, I'm doing the gardening and going to
I'm going to take a percentage of what comes out
of the garden, and we take a percentage of it's
usually one percent one percent. Now, their goal is to
keep all your other costs down, and that one percent
is much less, by the way, than you would pay
if you went to commission based products. But at the
end of the day, you may say I don't want that.

(41:10):
Though I don't want you, You're not the right advisor
for me. I want the only I want to pay you.
Can I just pay you like on a retainer fee
or a flat fee? And do you have to manage
my money? So it's called scope of work. So what
happens is you come in to talk to the advisor
who's a real advisor, and they're going to say, let's

(41:32):
talk about what you want to accomplish. Now, let's talk
about the scope of work required to help you accomplish
that or get over the challenge, whatever it is, and
you want to do it on an ongoing basis. So
let's then discuss time and complexity. I can propose it
to you in two ways. You can pay me a
retainer fee, or you can pay me an as expressed

(41:53):
as a percentage of assets under management, which is one percent,
but usually less than one percent. So if a person
had a million dollar portfolio, you would say, well, that's
ten thousand dollars. Probably not, it's probably gonna if you're
if you're not terribly complex, it's gonna be less than that,
probably more like you know, seveny five hundred a year,
something like that. And for that fee, you know exactly

(42:15):
what you're paying. You also know exactly what you're getting,
so it's assets under management, it's retainer or flat fee,
or it's a one off. It's just like, hey, I
just want to buy some time and have you walk
me through this big decision I'm about to make. Maybe
I'll come back later, maybe I won't, so you can

(42:37):
do it ongoing or one off. So it's those those
are the pretty much, you know, the only ways that
you're going to pay the advisor based on It's either
going to be time and it's always going to be
time and complexity no matter what.

Speaker 1 (42:51):
If I sign up with an advisor and I'm ready
to enter this relationship and I'm ready to fork over
the money because I need the help and I think
they're going to be able to help me get where
I'm want to get. What am I getting? Like? How
how often should I expect that we're working together? What
are those meetings? What are they comprised of? What questions
should I be prepared to ask in the meeting? Because

(43:11):
again we're talking about being in the driver's seat, not
in the passenger seat, So like I can't just hand
over the reins. What am I getting?

Speaker 3 (43:20):
And I don't know?

Speaker 1 (43:20):
Can I like text them on a Friday night when
I'm watching Netflix, and I've got a random question and
expect them to get back to me within you know,
seventy two hours or something like that.

Speaker 2 (43:28):
Yes, yes you can, and yes you should. So you
absolutely want to stay in that passenger seat or stay
in the driver's seat collaborating with the advisor. What you
should expect to get out of the fee that you're
paying and get out of the whole experience is you're
building a plan. You're building a plan that accounts for

(43:49):
a ton of things you worry about or what you
think about about money, things you don't know. You're looking
at what if scenarios, you're stress testing. So when it's
done correctly, you walk away with a tax minimization strategy
that do you feel like, oh good, I don't have
to keep up with all the tax laws and all

(44:10):
the changes. You're walking away with a financial plan that
includes cash flow, means, budget, how much am I spending? Spending, guardrails,
and you're walking away with a state plan. Now all
that doesn't even touch the investment piece. It has to
align with your investment strategy. But just the planning alone,
all by itself, those three components that's going to be

(44:33):
if you're working ongoing, that's going to be a resilient plan,
and you're going to walk away saying, oh my god.
Not only do I understand the plan, I helped build it.
I know what went into it. I understand it to
the point where I'm so confident that we've already stress
tested a lot of my concerns, and I know that

(44:54):
going forward when interest rates change, if the market drops
twenty percent, just all these changes that can happen that
are outside your control, and changes in your lifestyle that
are in your control, all of that gets accounted for
so that the plan is dynamic. So gone are the
days with your granddaddy's financial plan where they, you know,

(45:16):
they put together this piece of pic, this binder, and
they go, here's your plan, Joel. Here you go and
it goes in a closet and in five years you
pull it out and it's stale because everything's changed. The
economy's changed, stock market's changed, you've changed. So what we ongoing.
You're getting your money's more than your money's worth from

(45:40):
all the planning. Then on top of it, you're getting
the investment strategy that aligns with all your tax strategy
and all your financial and cash flow strategy, so you're
not putting yourself in a bind, in a position where
you're investing in things and then going, oh my god,
I can't get my money out right now out or

(46:01):
duplicating all those things. So it's a ongoing relationship that
more than pays for itself if it's done correctly and
if it's with the right advisor, and that's a key
to the whole thing.

Speaker 1 (46:15):
Yeah, all right, have a few more questions for you, Pam,
including I want to talk about wealth ramp and how
you help people specifically find the right advisor for them,
and also like breaking up with an advisor, what if
your advisor stinks so you need to move on. We'll
get to a few questions like that with Pam right
after this a back still talk with Pam Krueger talking

(46:42):
about financial advisors and man, this is like one of
those situations walking through the woods full of bear traps.
How do you avoid the bear traps and get where
you're trying to go without like getting your foot snapped off?

Speaker 3 (46:54):
Pam.

Speaker 1 (46:54):
One of the most fascinating studies to me. It was
done a while back. I think it was done by Vanguard,
and Vanguard found that individuals who have a financial advisor
tend to outperform people who don't by a not insignificant margin.
And I think if you're super into diying it and
you go it alone, but you are a perpetual learner,

(47:17):
you can do just fine. But I think a lot
of people, to their detriment, don't get a financial advisor.
And they and the big reason, and tell me if
I'm wrong, is probably because of coaching. Probably because they're
making mistakes because of emotion, and an advisor really would
have helped them not make a mistake in the heat
of the moment.

Speaker 2 (47:36):
Yeah, there's a thousand different ways that when people do
it right, again, it's the right fit, it's the right advisor.
Then the advisor Number one is you know, keeping the
cost down, like on the investments that you already had,
helping you to work with your spouse or your partner.

(47:57):
Let's face it, sometimes we marry an opposite. You know.
Sometimes the person you're married, you're a neat nick and
you know he might be not so neat. Same thing
with money. People kind of end up getting into relationships
over long periods of times and they figure out, oh,
I'm not going to fight about money all the time.

(48:18):
So instead I'm just going to accept this is this
and that's that. But the day of reckoning might come
later when something comes up, something happens. You got to
figure out what you're going to do.

Speaker 1 (48:28):
So that unbiased third party, the advisor, can be especially
helpful in those scenarios.

Speaker 2 (48:32):
Yeah, because that advisor is going to listen to both
of you, listen to each of you. And I can't
tell you how many times I've seen it with my
own eyes where the advisor was able to like really
help them stabilize their marriage because they had to. They
had to figure out the middle ground that was going
to work for each of them and actually talk openly

(48:53):
without the emotion and with the advisor in the room
knowing them really well. It's just one example.

Speaker 1 (48:59):
And they pay so they play part therapist. What if
someone out there is listening and they're like, I have
an advisor. Pretty sure, they're not fee only pretty sure.
They work for one of those big companies that advertises
during football games, And man, they called me up the
other day and they tried to sell me this insurance
policy even though it's something we hadn't really discussed before.
I don't know, there's a few red flags hitting me

(49:20):
as I'm listening to Pam talk about this, what would
you tell that person and how do how does someone
exit a relationship that maybe is question a toxic advisor relationship?

Speaker 2 (49:30):
Right, And let me start off too by saying, let
me throw a caveat out there. There are a lot
of very really good, well meaning brokers at brokerage firms,
and they really know a lot and they do a
great job by the client. There are many people that
come to me and they say, you know, I've been
with my advisor. I've been with her for thirty years

(49:50):
and she's you know, at a brokerage firm. But that
kind of thing sometimes does happen Joel, where they call
me and behind that advisor's back, they will call and
they'll say, I just kind of don't think it's working anymore,
and I don't want to hurt their feelings. We've been
with them for thirty years or twenty years or ten years,
or it's my brother in law. How do I get

(50:11):
out of this? And I do want to find a
feel only advisor. And then that's when I say, this
is exactly what you do. You don't get into the
conversation with someone when you're going to break up with them,
you just literally say things have changed in my life,
or if you're married or you have a partner, things
have changed in our personal life. And it's very private,

(50:36):
and you have done such a good job for me
for a really long time, and I am going to
move on, and I know you'll respect my privacy in
not discussing this further, and don't talk about it. Leave it,
just leave it alone, don't get into it, because that
way you don't have to explain yourself. In other words,

(50:59):
you saying haven't you worked for me? Haven't I paid
you enough over the past twenty five years. If I
choose to leave now, you've won the game advisor or broker,
You've already won because I already paid all this money,
And thank you very much for your service. It's been great.
I got the best of you. Let somebody else have
the rest of you now, and you move on.

Speaker 1 (51:21):
I think it's a great way to do it because
it's that relational piece that's the hardest for people. It's like,
I'm gonna let this person down. They're going to be upset,
and you're like, yeah, you got to find a way,
Just like clean yep, make a clean break.

Speaker 2 (51:34):
And you just you don't blame it on them. You
don't talk about something that was a shortcoming. You don't
talk about their fees. You don't unless you want to
ask questions, of course, but if you really just want
to make a clean break, you just say something has
come up for me, and it's very private. I don't
want to discuss it. You have been great, Joel, You've

(51:54):
been fantastic, and now I'm ready to move on, and
I know you'll respect my privacy.

Speaker 1 (52:01):
I feel like the search process for finding a great
advisor has been difficult, to say the least. And even
organizations that have existed to try to group like minded
advisors together, they just kind of have a listicle of
one hundred thousand people people that have paid to join
the network. But my goodness, how do you find the

(52:24):
advisor like you're talking about that matches your priorities, that
works with people like you. That's been a real big barrier,
and that's I think why a lot of people go
to a with a company that markets heavily. They're just like,
I guess that's the place to turn. Yeah, so, and
that's that's why you created wealth Ramp. What does wealth

(52:45):
Ramp do that was necessary in the marketplace? And also
just tell me too, I know you were like reticent
to launch this car or to really get into this
service of helping pair individuals with advisors. I knew it
was a big problem, but you were like, I don't
want to tackle it. I wanted to actually tackle it.

Speaker 2 (53:04):
I didn't want to do it. I didn't want to
be when somebody said to me, you know, I had
a television series called money Track that was on two
hundred plus PBS stations for years. John Bogel was a regular.
I was telling people how to DIY. The last thing
I was going to do is talk about the greatness
of financial advisors. But our viewers, our viewers kept emailing

(53:25):
me and saying, Pam, there's nothing out there. If I
do want an advisor and you've given us great vetting tips,
we don't know where to go. Can't you give us
some referrals? And my first answer, my first inclination, was
I'm never going to do that. And now fast forward,
I'm in love. I'm in love with doing this and

(53:46):
if it's hard for me to find these advisors, it's
going to be hard for everybody to find these advisors
because I'm looking for the exceptional, not just the pretty good.
So it took me a long time to curate a
network of two hundred and thirty different fee only firms.

Speaker 1 (54:00):
You say a long time, you mean multiple years and
lots of conversations with individual advisors around the country. You're
not just relying on internet reviews. This is not yelping
your way to this website. This is a lot of
personal relationships and a lot of h oh my painstaking effort.

Speaker 2 (54:13):
Oh my god. My name is on every referral. My
name is on every single referral. So the vetting has
to reflect me. And that took me about eighteen months.
And even people that were close to me, my family,
my friends when I was starting this that were like, Pam,
are you ever going to launch this thing? And I

(54:34):
was like, you don't understand. I can't launch this until
everything is curated and that I've done the vetting. That
means interviewing every single advisor I'm interested in and kissing
tons and tons of frogs. Then the other important aspect
was I had to make a private which meant very limiting.

(54:56):
It meant that the people who come to wealthamp dot
com and go through the survey, get matched with an advisor.
They see the three advisors, so you can see the
advisors that I am recommending for you. But it's a
one way mirror, so I've designed it so that you
can see them, they can't see you. So you have

(55:17):
all the power. You have all of the control over
how and when you want to initiate a conversation with
an advisor. Now, I know a lot of people will say, well,
I'm kind of shy. Can I have the advisor reach
out to me. Yes, we can make that happen. Course,
we're going to make it super easy on the platform,

(55:38):
but I Am not going to go into this with
an assumption that you want an advisor to contact you
unless you tell me, and you're the one right on
the website. You can schedule the meeting right there or
send a message to that to that advisor. But I
want you to be in control.

Speaker 1 (55:55):
And that's been another one of the problems with some
of those websites in the past, is you put in
your information and it's like, yeah, we're going to find
the right person for you, and then you get hounded
with emails and phone calls just just like one of
those mortgage shopping websites and you're like, I didn't realize
I was going to get called this many times and
you just you shut down and that good. No, it's
a crummy feeling. So I love the integrity that you're

(56:18):
approaching this topic and the website that you've built to
really help people connect to a financial advisor if it's
right for them, and with the right advisor that you've vetted,
because again, like you said, you want a great one,
not an average one. So Pam, where where else where
can how the money listeners find out more about you
and more about what you're up to At.

Speaker 2 (56:40):
Wealthramp wellthrapped dot com is the website I write for
Kiplinger about once a month so and I have a
lot of educational materials that are just out there. There's
Pam Krueger dot com, this money track dot org. But
Wealthrapped dot com is a great starting place because that's
where you're going to see the blog and the conversations

(57:01):
around educating how to financial advisors operate, how do they charge,
how much do you pay? And what the heck do
you get out of it? And how do you work
with them? And then how do you break up with them?

Speaker 3 (57:12):
The whole game our no, no.

Speaker 2 (57:15):
I want important really, I'll give you this one tidbit
really quick. One metric I look at that's so telling
is the advisor has a ninety on wealth Rampa has
ninety eight percent client retention rate. So clients are clients
once they once they find the right advisor, they are

(57:35):
with that advisor.

Speaker 1 (57:36):
That's a good point. That's another good metric to use. Yeah,
do people want to keep working with them, then you
might want to work with them. Pam, this has been
such a great conversation. Thank you so much for joining
me today.

Speaker 2 (57:45):
Thank you for having me.

Speaker 1 (57:47):
Man, what a great conversation with Pam. And I just
I really love the integrity, the heart that she's brought
into something that can seem so stuffy and boring to
so many people, the financial advisor space and truly just
daunting and hard for a lot of people to figure out. Right,

(58:11):
it's confusing. So to make finding an advisor simple less
fraught with potential for error, Pam's done a great job
with her site, wealth Ramp, making that happen. And actually
we've incorporated wealth Ramp into the how to Money site,
so if you're looking to find an advisor, you can
go to how to money dot com slash advisor after

(58:33):
listening to this, and we have a custom page made
up because we so believe in this site that Pam
has created to help people find a financial advisor. You know,
there's a decent chance you're listening and a financial advisor
doesn't make sense for you, and that's something we talk
about regularly here on the show. If that's the case,
don't go there, or unless you just want to like
monkey around and see what's going on, do that. But

(58:57):
if a financial advisor doesn't make sense you at this juncture,
which for so many DIY investors it just it doesn't,
especially in those early years, stay away.

Speaker 3 (59:07):
But if you feel.

Speaker 1 (59:08):
Like you're at one of those junctures and a financial
advisor makes sense for you, you want to hire a
good one, not a bad one. You want to hire
one of the best ones. And typically the best doesn't
cost more, could cost less, like Pam said, which I
think is so cool. So I don't know what was
my big takeaway from this conversation. I love how she
emphasized the reality that you, as the individual who's listening

(59:29):
right now, you are the silver bullet. Yeah, you might
need a coach, you might need someone in your corner,
but you're the silver bullet. And you can't expect someone
else to take the reins of your financial life and
make home run decisions. You have to be involved, and
there's just no way around that. And if you do try,

(59:54):
if you do try to get out of managing your
own finances, nobody's going to care about your money as
much as you care about your money. And I think
the likelihood of doing business with someone who isn't doing
isn't operating in your best interest goes up exponentially. If
if you take a side seat and you're not even
in you're not even in the passenger seat, but you're

(01:00:15):
like riding in the trunk or something like that. You
don't want to be in that position when it comes
to your finances. So, yes, an advisor can help a
segment of the population, and you want to make sure
you go about doing it the right way. But no
matter what, you want to collaborate with that advisor. That
was something that Pam said, and I love that way
of thinking. Collaborate with not just say hey, this is

(01:00:37):
your job, now make it happen. The collaboration is crucial,
and so much of it really is about what your
hopes and dreams and goals are and talking through that
with an advisor and then making a plan to help
you get there. So I hope you enjoyed this episode,
and I hope for some of you is reassuring that
I'm actually doing pretty good on my own and maybe
I don't need to hire anybody, because I do think

(01:00:58):
that's the case, that that's the position that a lot
of How to Money listeners find themselves in. But again,
of course, there are a lot of folks out there
too who are like, I've made a lot of progress
and now I want to pro to come in and
help me professionalize this a little bit, all right. We
will have links to everything that we mentioned up in
the show notes on the website at howdomoney dot com,
including the new landing page howdomoney dot com slash advisor,

(01:01:23):
where you can find a financial advisor that works within
those wealth parameters. They're vetted by Pam, who you just
heard on the show. Thanks so much for listening. Until
next time, Best friend Out

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}DIY or Delegate: the Financial Advisor Conundrum w/ Pam Krueger #1055