September 24, 2025 • 54 mins
The supposed luxury of avocado toast, along with the latte, has become an “ok boomer” personal finance tip. “Stop frivolously spending your money and you’d be rich!”... we don’t actually believe that here at HTM and even if there’s a modicum of truth to that statement, it presents other challenges like: how long do you sacrifice in the short-term in order to achieve long-term financial success? Which is why we’re pumped to have financial counselors Justin & Haley Browns-Wood join the podcast today because these are the types of questions they guide their clients through on the reg.
Justin & Haley share their story which includes paying off six figures in debt – all on teacher’s salaries, despite burning through a $600,000 settlement. The couple behind Price of Avocado Toast discusses how lifestyle inflation led to their out of control debt, why debt consolidation is risky without behavioral change, examples of how tracking expenses are essential for gaining financial clarity, how shame around debt can be a common barrier to financial progress, but then we also talk about OkCupid and the intersection of intimacy and Dave Ramsey – it turns out that transformative experiences can strengthen relationships!
Want more How To Money in your life? Here are some additional ways to get ahead with your personal finances:
- Head to PriceOfAvocadoToast.com to learn about everything Justin & Haley, including their financial coacking.
- Knowing your ‘money gear’ is a crucial part of your personal finance journey. Start here.
- Sign up for the weekly HTM newsletter. It’s fun, free, & practical.
- Find a thriving community of fellow money nerds by joining the HTM Facebook group!
- Massively reduce your cell phone bill each month by switching to a discount provider like Mint Mobile.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Welcome to how to Money. I'm Joel, and today we're
talking why you should eat the avocado toast with Justin
and Haley Brown's Wood. Okay, so the supposed luxury of
(00:29):
avocado toast along with the latte, it's become an okay
boomer personal finance tip, right. Stop spending on those two
things and you'll finally be able to create some financial
margin in your life. Cue the eye roll. Nobody thinks
that's real life. And my guest today are proof that
you can grow up without any real money knowledge. You
can quickly churn through a six hundred thousand dollars settlement.
(00:51):
You can still pay off six figures in debt all
on a teacher salary. Lot packed into this one today.
Justin and Haley Browns Woods are one of my favoritavorite
couples in the personal finance space. Fun facts they met
on Okay Cupid back in the day. We can talk
about that, guys if you want. They loathe Dave Ramsey,
which we will get into as well, and now they're
financial counselors. They use their empathetic abilities and their hard
(01:14):
fought money wins to help others overcome money hang ups,
tackle debt and heal their relationship with money. So, Haley
and Justin, thank you for joining me today on the show.
Speaker 2 (01:23):
Thank you so much for having us.
Speaker 3 (01:25):
Yeah, this is so exciting. Thanks for celebrating us there.
Speaker 1 (01:28):
Oh you got okay so okay Cupid? How'd that go down?
Who reached out to?
Speaker 4 (01:31):
Who?
Speaker 1 (01:33):
Tell me the love story?
Speaker 3 (01:34):
Yeah? This is like my favorite story.
Speaker 2 (01:35):
But he really likes to bash me here.
Speaker 3 (01:37):
Yeah, I really do.
Speaker 5 (01:38):
I found Haley on okay Cupid and another dating site
at the same time. Plenty of fish, Yeah, plenty of fish,
not tender, don't worry.
Speaker 2 (01:46):
Uh.
Speaker 3 (01:46):
But I reached out to her and she ghosted.
Speaker 5 (01:48):
Me for like two weeks no way, and I'm thinking,
what the heck, We're ninety four percent compatible?
Speaker 3 (01:53):
What's going on here?
Speaker 5 (01:54):
And eventually she messaged me and said, I'm sorry I
had to sift through just gross messages from other people.
I bet here I am, and we sparked a conversation
and the rest is history. We're actually celebrating our seven
year anniversary today.
Speaker 3 (02:06):
Joel today today.
Speaker 1 (02:08):
Congratulations. I we could have found another day so you
didn't have to talk to me. Okay, yes, is great,
this is exciting stuff. I'm so thrilled for you happy anniversary.
I would have sent you some peers or something speaking
which first question I gotta ask you really is, what's
your craft bear equivalent? What do you guys like to
spend money on? Your super intentional, thoughtful about saving and
investing for the future. What do you splurge on in
(02:30):
the here and now?
Speaker 5 (02:31):
I would say, for me, just in this season of life,
my guilty pleasure is fantasy football.
Speaker 3 (02:36):
Not like daily gambling.
Speaker 5 (02:39):
But I cannot turn down my friends and the fantasy
leagues I've been in for ten years, even though every
year I'm like, why am I doing this? I'm just
losing my one hundred dollars every year, But you know,
I figure one hundred dollars stretched out over five months
is worth it to me, and it reconnects me with
some of my friends.
Speaker 3 (02:54):
So I would say it's probably fantasy football for me.
Speaker 4 (02:56):
Okay, I really love spending money on myself. I love
self care. I feel like it is life giving. And
being a mom of three kids five and under and
running a business from home with the kid at home
with us like it is chaos and I just need
to step away and go get my nails done. Or
(03:17):
go get my hair done and self care things really
fill my cup. So it's worth every penny.
Speaker 1 (03:22):
Okay, I love it every time, love it. Those are
both great things. And you're right.
Speaker 3 (03:26):
You're right.
Speaker 1 (03:26):
I mean, like all work and no play makes us
stol right, And that's kind of the heart behind some
of your brand which I want to get into as well,
and some of how you guys talk about money, which
I think is really refreshing. But before we get there,
let's start kind of with some of the story stuff.
And justin at one point you inherited six hundred thousand
dollars and this is just this is like the craziest
(03:48):
story to me was this was this like the impetus
for you to get your finances together where you like boom,
large chunk of change. I guess I'm going to start
figuring out how to save effectively and invest wisely? Or
is that not how it went down?
Speaker 3 (04:03):
That is definitely not how it went down. Yeah, I
wish that was how it went down. Yeah.
Speaker 5 (04:08):
In twenty fifteen, my grandmother passed away from mesothelioma, which
is as best as caused lung cancer. It's kind of
what all those commercials are talking about that's essentially what
my grandma went through. And in the process of her decline,
my grandfather started a wrongful death lawsuit on her behalf,
and when she passed away, that lawsuit finalized and money
came down to the kiddos. And so I received six
(04:29):
hundred thousand dollars and two checks straight to my search
to my house where Haley and I were living. You know,
just go put him in the bank and five days
later you can have access to him. And I had
no financial education growing up, as you know, a kid
from a single mom household. Hailey was the exact same,
and so we really started to kind of just lean
into the things we thought were smart. And so I
(04:51):
went and caught up on two years of roth Ira
investing because somebody said you should talk to a financial advisor,
and we ended up buying a house or putting, you know,
a down payment down on a house because we thought, well,
we're supposed to own a home one day. But then
beyond that, we really just kind of inflated our lifestyle
and started to spend money in ways that we're bringing
us joy, but that we're not going to serve us
(05:13):
long term. And eventually, in about three and a half years.
Not only did we blow through the six hundred thousand dollars,
but we got into over two hundred and twenty thousand
dollars of debt just by inflating our lifestyle and again
quote unquote kind of doing the right thing, but not
knowing the right way to go about it.
Speaker 1 (05:28):
M okay, yeah, Halo. What was that like for you?
As you know? And Justin said, Hey, neither of us
had much of a financial education growing up. We're usually
taught something about money, right, whether it's like good, bad,
and different. What was your financial education as a childlike
and how did that impact you?
Speaker 2 (05:49):
My financial education as a child was just.
Speaker 4 (05:52):
Observing a lot of what not to do from my parents,
kind of fumbling the ball quite a bit.
Speaker 2 (05:57):
Yeah, and we.
Speaker 4 (06:00):
This happened in twenty sixteen where we got the money.
In twenty twelve, I watched my parents go through a
nasty multi year divorce. They lost two houses. Like it
was really financially like traumatic financial trauma is what it
was for me. So yeah, when Justin and I received
all that money was it was technically Justin's money one
(06:20):
hundred percent his, but we combined our lives fully from
the beginning, so I totally took part in spending all
of the money as well, and the education was nothing
about like what to do. I do have very vivid
memory of that time of us just casually transferring twenty
grand over from savings into our checking frequently, and we
(06:44):
didn't really realize the money was being spent until it
was totally gone, which is a really surreal thing to
go through, where money is quite literally slipping through your
fingers and you don't know it's happening, and then one
day you blink and you're like, wait, we had how
much money and it's gone. And I had had that
happen in my life before, with a very small inheritance
(07:07):
I got from my uncle. It was a twenty five
thousand dollars inheritance that I got right before I moved
to Sweden to study abroad, and I didn't have any
education about what to do with that money. And I
spent all of that in a year traveling, and then
nobody ever questioned it either. No one asked me what
I did with the money, no one asked me if
I invested.
Speaker 2 (07:26):
It, or it was never talked about again.
Speaker 4 (07:29):
So I think that it all comes back to the
financial education that I had was just silence. Nobody talked
about anything.
Speaker 1 (07:36):
I don't think that's abnormal either. I think that's what
a lot of people go through. They see maybe bad
habits and then nobody talks to them about because you
know who would talk to them their parents, who don't
really know much about money either. And so yeah, that
sort of silence and just bad habits get passed down
through osmosis, and typically we're doing our behaviors reflect what
our parents did. Oftentimes I'm curious too, like during that
(07:59):
period where you were inflating your lifestyle and you were
spending more and so you know, justin not all of
it was bad. You started the roth Ira, you bought
a house, which at least like hey, there's that's not
a depreciating asset. But were you did you feel happy?
Were there unsettled feelings like during that time, like what
was going what was going through your mind and what
(08:19):
was your body feeling? Right as like you've got this
inheritance and you're spending it down.
Speaker 5 (08:23):
To be quite honest, I think this is the part
that we might get some gruff for. We had a
great time, like we were going out on wine, dates.
We were traveling to get you know, six rows back
at the Titans game because I loved the Titans and
wanted to travel in Nashville all the way from California.
We upgraded to a townhouse that we were renting that
(08:44):
we probably didn't need to. We could have done way less,
but we had the money to go through, and so
we lived in this really nice part of town in
a really nice townhouse, and we upgraded you know the
things in there. We spent on a personal trainer. It
was just things that we really enjoyed in our lives.
We had nice cars. It's again probably the thing we're
(09:05):
gonna get gruff for, but yeah, it was nice.
Speaker 3 (09:08):
It was a fun time in our lives.
Speaker 1 (09:09):
Yeah, No, I that makes sense, like spending money that
you have, Yeah, feels good, but also when you're done
with that, when it's gone, and then when you're also
in credit card debt, because you're like, man, we didn't
even stop after the money was gone. We kept going,
what does that feel like?
Speaker 5 (09:25):
Well? I think that's the interesting part because I wasn't
aware of any of that. Haley really was managing the
finances for our entire household, and I thought she was
so great and just crushing it. And how lucky was
I that I found a partner who was willing to
shoulder this load that I didn't even really know what
was going on. I could see that Hailey was stressed
and we would maybe have a conversation about it, but
it wasn't really in the weeds with her, so I
(09:47):
wasn't even fully aware of it until about a year
after our wedding. At that point, the wedding was the
last time that we really spent any money from the
initial pot. We had a beautiful thirty thousand dollars wedding
and that was it. We ran out of money. And
a year into our marriage, we were taking a trip
to Monterey for our anniversary and we're like a week
(10:07):
into the month and Haley says, hey, our paychecks from
teaching are already gone, so the rest of the month
is going to be put onto credit cards. And that
was really the first conversation that I had of like, oh, whoa,
Like that's where that's not good. We're doing something wrong here,
Like we really screwed the pooch on this one. But
up until then I had no clue what was going on.
(10:28):
So I wasn't even fully aware of it. I'm sure
you probably were feeling way different than me at the time.
Speaker 4 (10:33):
I tried to have conversations with him and bring up
the stress at different times, but because I didn't witness
people talking about money, I didn't really know how to
bring it up in a way that it just I
didn't know what I was doing. And right before that,
maybe like six months before that Monterey trip moment, we
actually listened to the entire Dave Ramsey Total Money Makeover
(10:56):
audiobook on a road trip, and that was the initial
seed plan in both of our heads off maybe there
is another way to get out of this debt, but
we didn't really do anything about it afterwards until we
have the moment of Okay, we really need to It's
not like maybe we should now now we need to
do something about this because we're in a pickle and
(11:18):
we need to get out of it. But like, I
don't know that looking back, i'd remember any time where
I said, hey, justin I'm really stressed. I feel like
we should be concerned. We've spent all of the money
from the initial six hundred thousand dollars pop.
Speaker 2 (11:34):
Maybe we should slow it down.
Speaker 4 (11:36):
I think it was just stressed that stayed inside and
wasn't ever made into words, and it's he's not dumb.
He could look at the bank and see that the
money wasn't there, but for some reason, it just didn't
click for us that it was gone. And I think
that when we really dive into all of that, it
comes from the way that we were raised with not having.
Speaker 2 (11:56):
A lot of money.
Speaker 4 (11:56):
We never had a lot of money, so when the
money was gone, it was like whatever, now we're just
back to natural state of just not having any money.
And it didn't really feel like a big stressor that
the money was gone until we realized how much debt
we were in.
Speaker 1 (12:09):
That was stressful because then you're digging digging yourself out
of a hole. You're not just right, It is not
you just blew through. You're just like, okay, now we
actually have to get back to square one. And you
mentioned Dave Ramsey, and I do I have some questions
about that because he is the man you love to
hate at times, but you also he was an instrumental
part of your money journey, Like so totally were you
(12:32):
following his advice to a t How were you like
quickly like learning your own lingo, establishing your own flow.
You're like, all right, I'll take a few of these tips,
but now I'm going to go my own way. Like
what what was your relationship like with him with the
information that he delivers and how did it help you?
At least initially, we.
Speaker 4 (12:51):
Leaned in on Dave Ramsey for support and for community
when we felt really lonely and we didn't really know
how to communicate with other people about all of our
debt and the current financial state that we were in,
and so that was super helpful. We never really followed
his system to a tea even from the beginning, but
we did listen to his show for three hours a day,
(13:12):
five days a week for about a year and a half.
Speaker 1 (13:16):
Straight to the main vein Dave Ramsey. Yeah, yeah, I remember,
justin like you. At one point you talked about being
you listened to so much Dave and then I think
maybe you're commute ended or something like that, and You're like,
what am I going to listen to Dave? I don't know,
it's like an addiction for you.
Speaker 3 (13:32):
It literally was.
Speaker 5 (13:33):
I mean it was our first year of marriage and
I would say, like we would talk about uncle Dave
when we were in the shower together. Yeah, and it's
like that's a very odd thing for a newlywed couple
to be talking about in the shower.
Speaker 3 (13:44):
But it's just so like you said, we were just like.
Speaker 5 (13:46):
Mainlining Dave Ramsey and it was it was all that
was consuming us was his content, even if we weren't
fully following his plan.
Speaker 1 (13:53):
Okay, And as especially people who are in significant amounts
of debt like Dave, can be a really motivating force
for people who are in that spot in their lives.
So was that the kick in the pants you needed.
Speaker 4 (14:05):
The system of just put your head down and hustle
and get it done did work very well for Jetson
and I. It worked very well for us specifically our
personality types and we are the type of people that
can just get it done. But what we've realized over
time we now work with people directly helping them with
their finances, is that is not normal. We are definitely
(14:29):
the anomaly in that situation for the average people who
can just like pay off debt super fast and stay
out of debt. So for us, it did work and
it was what we needed for sure in that moment.
Speaker 1 (14:43):
One of the tips that I think Dave Gibbs and
I don't want to talk about him for too long
feels a wile kind of meta multiple personal Finance creators
talking about this other personal vance creator. But he's a
big part of your story. And one of the tips
he gives for a lot of people who are in
this sort of phase what they have a lot of
credit card that they're trying to get rid of it
in short order is to work multiple jobs. Justin you
(15:05):
took that advice. Were you working like three jobs at
one point? And like what was that like for you?
I'm curious is the intensity maybe of some of the suggestions.
Does that feel approachable now or does it feel ridiculous?
Like how do you think about that period of time?
Speaker 3 (15:21):
Yeah, it was pretty intense.
Speaker 5 (15:23):
You know. I was teaching Monday through Friday, and then
I was bartending and serving pizzas at a pizzeri and
wine bar in the evening. And so I would get
home from teaching, I'd kiss Haley and our daughter, and
then I would go to the pizza joint and I
would serve and bartend from like four thirty to ten
o'clock at night, go home, and you know, put the
cash in the Manila envelope that David told us to
(15:44):
kind of track everything on, and then I.
Speaker 3 (15:46):
Would wake up in the morning and do it again.
Speaker 5 (15:48):
And actually, right before the pandemic, I ended up getting
a third job as a banquet server to try and
pick up extra days at a really nice restaurant in
Wine Country. Unfortunately, or maybe fortunately because of the pandemic,
I never worked for that company, but you know, it
was fully prepared to have those three jobs. And you know,
Haley and I consistently talked about this idea and even
now with our clients. You can do just about anything
(16:09):
for a season and a reason, and there are seasons
of life where maybe you do want to hustle. Maybe
it helps you to get that side hustle where you're
you know, picking up a second job and throwing it
towards a goal or throwing it towards something. But it's
a very specific scenario. I think that fits that right.
I was a teacher during the pandemic, so I was
teaching from home. I was still seeing my family pretty frequently,
(16:32):
and then I was going to the pizza esta on it,
and so I didn't miss out on a ton of time.
If it were today, where things are opened up. Maybe
and I was back to work and I didn't have
as much time, it would be a lot more difficult,
you know. I only had to go through the stage
of only seeing them for an hour a day for
two months before the world shut down, and then I
was teaching from home. But for those two months it
(16:53):
was hard. It was really hard, And I don't know
if I would recommend that for most folks nowadays. I
think there are better ways to do it than that
kind of deprivation and that go go go kind of
hustler mentality. I don't even think I know there's better
ways to do it now.
Speaker 1 (17:07):
Do you think some people burn out because of that
sort of intensity either, Like I have the right desire,
but my goodness, the sort of like boot camp mentality
just it's too intense for me. I'm just opting out altogether, definitely.
Speaker 5 (17:20):
And I think for many people it's just kind of
recreating the diet culture fad of like you can do
anything if you just kind of race to burn out
as fast as possible. But the question is, did you
set up the right habits and patterns and behaviors to
not get yourself back.
Speaker 3 (17:33):
Into that situation? And for many people, we don't.
Speaker 5 (17:36):
We side hustle, or we find some debt payoff strategy,
we pay off debt. We're like whoo, and then we
look up two years later and we're back into that
debt because we never fixed any of the root causes.
Speaker 3 (17:45):
And I think for us.
Speaker 5 (17:46):
That certainly could have been part of our journey as
well if we didn't confront some things.
Speaker 1 (17:50):
And your main gigs. You're both teachers in California. For
a lot of years, some people would say that overcoming
six figures of debt is impossible on like a teacher sound.
But it's not because you guys did it. So can
you talk to me about what that process was like,
the sacrifices you had to make, and kind of the
habits you had had to learn in order to make
(18:12):
that a possibility, and how long did it take to
pay off that debt.
Speaker 4 (18:15):
The first thing we did was we just started meticulously
tracking every single dollar that was coming in and out
of our bank, and we cut everything that was any
form of extra We definitely cut the avocado toast and
we had a very basic bear budget. That's what we did.
(18:35):
But then it was also this is really important. It
was during the pandemic. We didn't leave the house, so
it was very easy for us to just not spend money.
We didn't do anything that was easy enough, and because
our budget was so fine tuned, any extra form of
money during that period of time. We got COVID stimulus money,
there was the child tax credit money. We were able
(18:56):
to put that extra towards everything, but a lot of
it did come from extra money from justin working. I
also was a real estate photographer at the time, very
part time, But any extra money that we got also
just fully funneled there. But we got it to a
point where we were able to have extra in our
budget from just our teaching salaries, so anything extra really
(19:19):
made a dent.
Speaker 1 (19:20):
And how serious were you about debt eradication was it?
I mean obviously getting multiple jobs, willing to get a
third job, so pretty dang serious. And then didn't you
sell your home in order to go into a rental
instead because you wanted to take that equity to pay
off the debt? Like was it just kind of like, Hey,
we're throwing anything against the wall to see what sticks,
(19:40):
Like this is how much we hate this debt right now? Yeah?
Speaker 5 (19:42):
Yeah, we ended up selling you know, paid off vehicles
that we had purchased, and that was a big chunk
to go towards student loans. The kind of final straw was, yeah,
selling our home and moving away. I think a catalyst
for that as well was that we were moving closer
towards Haley's mom and could have some help with childcare
as well while we had a young family, and so
we thought, Okay, are we comfortable making this decision right
(20:04):
now in this kind of early infancy of our family
to see where it's going to push us to. And
eventually we did sell our home, paid off a little
bit more consumer debt, but paused on paying off our
student loan debt because of the wild flux that is
student loan debt and also our own personal finance education journey.
(20:24):
The idea of paying off student loans that could potentially
be forgiven on your public service loan forgiveness as teachers
wasn't as beneficial as investing money instead.
Speaker 3 (20:34):
For us.
Speaker 5 (20:35):
At that point, we had kind of grown out of
Dave Ramsey and that idea of fast track towards debt
and really started to decide what does the financial journey
look like decades from now? For our family, and how
can we get to that destination rather than the debt
free destination.
Speaker 1 (20:47):
Haley, I'm curious to hear from you about those bigger
moves that you made. Do you feel like that's necessary
for most people? I mean, it sounds like you guys
took some of the biggest big moves possible, getting additional jobs,
selling the house to rent instead selling paid off vehicles.
A lot of people would say, like, have that sunk
cost fallacy sort of thing. Well, the vehicle's already appreciated
(21:08):
some I need a car to get around, right, I'm
not gonna sell my car. How did you guys think
about the big stuff, and do you think that more
people should be willing to take more bold moves like
that instead of just nibbling around the edges when it
comes to debt payoff.
Speaker 4 (21:22):
This kind of sounds Dave Ramsey ish, but I think
it depends on how fast and how bad you want
it in the season that you're in. The season we
were in was we need to pay this off as
fast as humanly possible, because that was our goal. But
a lot of people are like, if that was us
right now with young, young kids, I don't know that
(21:42):
those moves would be made. I don't know that we
would sell a very reliable vehicle that was paid off
in order to fast track things when we could just
keep that safe car for our family because we have
young kinds and we need to have a reliable vehicle and.
Speaker 1 (21:56):
Just stretch that timeline out just a little.
Speaker 4 (21:58):
Bit, right and it it really does come down to
the season of life that you're in. For us, it
was kind of a no brainer. But I've seen a
lot of people make those decisions and then they're kind
of like, well, maybe I didn't need to do that,
So it really depends.
Speaker 1 (22:12):
All right, we've got I got a few more questions
I want to get to with you guys, including I
want to talk more about debt payoff hacks. I want
to talk about budgeting, y'all's takes on budgeting and just
how you've helped clients in a one on one way
really make progress with their money, not just with the numbers,
but with the way they think about it. We'll get
to some more questions with Justin and Haley right after this.
Speaker 5 (22:37):
Art.
Speaker 1 (22:37):
We're back still talking with Justin and Hailey. They are
from the Price of Avocado Toast and we're talking about
their story and just really how I don't know, maybe
it's okay to eat the avocado toast. I'm curious to
hear your take, guys, because you remember that was a
trope for so long. There was like the Latte Factor book,
and then it was like, man, if the millennials would
(22:58):
just stop eating that dang avocado toast, they could probably
reach financial independence in like three and a half years, right,
And some of it just feels utterly absurd, but there's
also like a little bit of truth right to the
small things that we do every day that add up
and if you make coffee at home versus going out, Like, yeah,
if you do that every day, it adds up. So
I'm curious to hear I want to hear your take,
(23:20):
like why did you have why'd you come up with
the name the price of avocado toast? And then what's
your take on those small purchases.
Speaker 5 (23:27):
Yeah, we ended up with the name price of Avocado
Toast for our own podcast because we did an Instagram
poll about the podcast and what we're going to talk
about and said what should we name it? And somebody
said cost of Avocado Toast. But we were both elementary
school teachers and didn't like the vowel sounds there like
cost of avocado, and so we went with price of
avocado toast. And you know, when we think about this
(23:49):
idea of like not getting the avocado toast or not
getting the latte, I think you hit it on the head.
There is some truth in that, and it's up to
all of us that kind of sort out what is
that truth for me in my life? And maybe it's
the avocado toast, but maybe it is the daily fantasy
sports gambling, or maybe it is the trips that I'm
struggling to say no to with a friend, or maybe
(24:10):
it's the thousand subscriptions that I have. Right, I think
that we get very singular in this idea of like
trimming things down, and not all of it needs to
be trimmed. Right. The seventeen dollars stream probably isn't moving
the needle that much for you. But when you have
seven of them and you get rid of four and
you throw that at your credit card instead.
Speaker 3 (24:30):
How much faster is that credit card paid off?
Speaker 5 (24:32):
And is the value there more important to you? And
if it is, well, then let's do that for a
season of life, right, we went down to I think
it was Sling TV and only Sling TV when we
were in the depths of our you know, kind of journey,
and that was what we had and it was like
really cheap that it was like maybe nine dollars at
the time for their like basic plan.
Speaker 2 (24:49):
I don't even think we had a NetPlane.
Speaker 3 (24:50):
Yeah, and it.
Speaker 5 (24:51):
Worked for us, right, And so I think that there
is this honesty behind Hey, where am I spending money
that doesn't align with the values that I have right
now in my life? And am I comfortable getting rid
of some of these things? We still want to have
joy and we still want to find ways to build
joy into your budget, which is key on the journey
so that you're not you know, burning out.
Speaker 3 (25:09):
But it is.
Speaker 5 (25:10):
Also confronting those harder conversations of is this something that
is serving me right now in this moment.
Speaker 1 (25:16):
And is that as simple as like weighing the pros
and the cons. Hey, if I keep the streaming service
around me, is my credit card debt is going to
be around for another like a month and a half
or what is it? Kind of like are you getting
that granular with it or how are you helping people
think through those decisions, because especially for folks who are
like I feel like I've been on this debt treadmill
for a long time, interest rates like twenty two percent
(25:37):
now it's kind of crushing me. It's really burdened some
We all know that like debt can be mentally afflicting.
So how do you help people think about those trade
offs of like moving more more quickly towards debt payoff
versus yeah, a little more slowly and incorporating some more
of those things that you care about right now.
Speaker 4 (25:57):
One of the things that we do with people pretty
early on that we do an activity that helps them
identify what their values are. And once the values are identified,
we can use the values and the goals together to
figure out where is our money going and.
Speaker 2 (26:12):
Does it fill our cups.
Speaker 4 (26:13):
For some people, the value might be security, and that
might mean financial security. I need to know that my
family's going to be okay. I need to know that
we're going to have a house over our head, the
bills are paid, the debt is paid off. That might
be a value of theirs. And the goal might simultaneously
be that they want to pay off their debt. So
for them, it's really easy to just like hustle, hustle, hustle,
where someone else their value might be travel and community
(26:37):
and being around the people that bring them joy. So
they might be unwilling to maybe sacrifice the family vacation,
so they're okay prolonging it. So it really does depend
on what the goals are and the values for each person.
So we can figure out something that's going to not
only make you happy, but be a sustainable way to
get to the end goal for you.
Speaker 1 (26:59):
And you too, have helped clients pay off more than
four million dollars worth of debt, and I want to say, right,
I mean, everybody has a different financial situation, but I'm curious,
what are maybe like the biggest things that your clients
tend to not understand or to not be doing. That
feels like the lowest hanging fruit. So someone's coming to
you for that initial consultation and you're like, well, have
you looked at this, this and this? And most people
(27:20):
just hasn't crossed their minds their mind to look at
those things. What are those things?
Speaker 5 (27:23):
To be honest, jol, A lot of the folks we
work with are just like us back in the day, right,
they were not maybe budgeting or tracking their expenses. And
it is sometimes as simple as saying, hey, like, we're
going to sit down and we're going to create a
budget that feels really good for your life, and I'm
going to show you how to track your expenses, and
then I'm going to be an accountability coach. It's going
to stick you to it and make sure that you
(27:44):
are following through. And when you show somebody those numbers
and make it really clear for them and just say, hey,
I've run these numbers for you and here's exactly what
it can be if you want to come along for
this journey.
Speaker 3 (27:55):
Are you up for it? And they say yes.
Speaker 5 (27:56):
I mean it's almost immediate that folks have a return,
you know, the first two month working with us, they're like,
oh wow, I mean I've already paid off this much
debt or I've already crushed this much amount, or I've
already seen this light at the end of the tunnel.
Because it really is just kind of this awakening, this
educational piece that I think Hayley and I are really
good at as former teachers, of saying hey, here's the
(28:17):
scaffolding that you need, here's this beginning step, and if
you take this step, here's where the journey's gonna go.
And when we set it up for people like that
and they're able to see it, there's truly no stopping people.
So it's really as simple as like, let's get on
a budget, let's track our expenses, let's trim the dining out,
let's trim the extracurriculars that you're not paying attention to,
and I'm still gonna put all of this other fun
stuff in your budget and you're gonna crush debt. And
(28:39):
doesn't that feel really good?
Speaker 1 (28:41):
Is do you think part of the problem is that
people assume they're doing better than they are.
Speaker 3 (28:44):
Yes, I think you're spot on.
Speaker 1 (28:46):
When you look at the data about how much people
are spending on subscriptions, they just assume that they're spending
like one hundred bucks a month, but really the average
person is spending like three hundred bucks a month. So
they just assume certain things that just aren't true and
they haven't really reflected on that.
Speaker 3 (29:01):
Yes, we see that.
Speaker 4 (29:02):
Sorry, go ahead, well, I was actually going to say
that people have no idea how they should be budgeting,
like everything justin said, and if people get paid every
other week, they need to be budgeting on a week
like pay period budget because if you get paid September
twenty sixth, and then the next paycheck is October fifth,
that paycheck goes from September twenty six to October fourth.
(29:25):
It has part of September and part of October, probably
your mortgage or your rent as well. So there's this
concept of budgeting by month that every single budgeting app
only budgets by month. I have yet to see a
budgeting app that is a pay period budgeting app, and
everything you download online is just monthly budgeting templates. They
continue to input their numbers. They're like the mouth says
(29:47):
I should have extra money, but I don't. I'm constantly
out of money. I'm living paycheck to paycheck. Where's this going.
It's a cash flow problem with how the money is
coming in and the money is coming out. They really
need to get clear and make paycheck to paycheck, but
on an intentional way, really just taking a spin on
what does paycheck to paycheck look like and break it down,
(30:08):
and once people do that, they're like, WHOA, this is
way easier than I thought.
Speaker 1 (30:12):
Do you think that's why people are turning to buy now,
pay later or the apps they allow you to get
paid early, and then it's only like making the situation
worse because it's like, oh, that's the only way I'd
be able to afford the thing I'm I'm trying to buy.
I thought I had the money. I don't. I guess
I'll just do that, Or thought the paycheck was coming
in like but or thought I had enough money, But
I guess I need my paycheck early. And then it
just becomes like this like really nasty cycle.
Speaker 3 (30:34):
And the accessibility of it is so easy.
Speaker 5 (30:37):
I mean you obviously back in the day, you know
if you're going to a pay day lender, you're walking
into a store. Nowadays, it's on your phone at two
in the morning when you're in the depths of some
type of emotional crisis. Yeah, you have access to it.
And that's what's really scary to me is it's so
easy to get access to it.
Speaker 3 (30:51):
All.
Speaker 1 (30:51):
That's what I want to talk about next, is like
the emotion and the like when you're talking to clients,
how much of an impact does their emotional state have?
How much are you addressing that? And in particular shame,
I think it can mess with a lot of people
for a long period of time and not allow them
really to make progress. They feel really, they fe really stuck,
(31:12):
and they feel a shamed that they don't know what
to do.
Speaker 3 (31:15):
Joe.
Speaker 5 (31:15):
One of the questions we ask people on our initial
application just to get on a free call with us
to talk about what we do and what their story
is and how we can maybe help or if they
need another resource, is we ask them what are your
reservations about one to one coaching? And you would think
that the number one question that people say is I
don't know how I'm going to pay for this or
I don't know how to afford it, right, which is
the elephant the room. Why would I pay somebody to put,
(31:36):
you know, work together to pay off my debt? That
is not the biggest thing that people say. The biggest
thing people say is I'm embarrassed about my debt and
I don't want to be shamed. And we have heard
that narrative so frequently. Just this past week, I'm in
a conversation with somebody talking about the shame they're feeling
around money and whether or not we should work together
because they're worried that we're going to shame them. And obviously,
(31:56):
you know, we just redirect them towards our content and say, hey, friend,
like that ain't us. You just go watch a million
videos or stories and you'll see that's not who we are.
But that really is the biggest issue for many people
is this shame and this guilt that they carry around debt.
And it's I think because many of our clients are
from the millennial generation where we were sold this bill
of goods of do X, Y and Z and life
(32:19):
will turn out okay, and maybe they're not seeing that
come to fruition and this is just an added step
on top of that of oh, I must have done
something wrong to not get to that point. And sure
we all have our own context to our story that
we need to honor and say what is my part
in this? But for many of them, the shame and
embarrassment of not hitting these mile markers in life is
(32:41):
really really heavy. So a lot of our initial work
with people doesn't even start to touch a budget. It
really looks at the emotional aspects and the things that
are weighing them down and trying to kind of relieve
that burden and set down that baggage so that we
can do the rest of the work.
Speaker 1 (32:56):
Like part therapist, part money coach, kind of a combo
or Halich. Yeah, so, Haley, that's what you feel too
when you're talking to clients, like you're both of those
things at once.
Speaker 3 (33:04):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (33:04):
We are actually now accredited financial counselors because I really
wanted to go forward with the designation of being a
financial counselor because that's what I felt like I was doing.
I felt like I was helping people with their finances
and I was their counselor. And so much of it
is your relationship with money and.
Speaker 2 (33:20):
How you move through the world.
Speaker 4 (33:22):
You need money, everybody needs it, and we can't get
rid of it, and we need to find a way
to create a healthy relationship with money and have it
feel good. And once people can do that, it's healing.
It is numbers, but so much deeper than numbers. Your
debt is so much deeper than the numbers of the
(33:42):
dollar signs and any of that. There's usually a lot
of stuff that led people there and really peeling the
onion and saying, well, what is it that got you here?
Was it a series of unfortunate events? Did you experience
a really tough year, did you have loss in your life,
job loss whatever that might be, or was it overspending
(34:02):
like what we did, or maybe a combination of both.
And once we can figure out what those things are,
it really helps people understand, Okay, this is why I'm
in this situation, and I'm not a bad person. I'm
not bad with money. Maybe I just didn't have the
right tools at the time. And now I'm here learning
and I have my coach by my side, and I'm
(34:23):
ready to learn how to do this the right way.
And I think one of the biggest things that I
noticed is people feel like I'm an adult. A lot
of our clients are like thirty five, forty five years old.
They feel like they are adults and they should be
making adult decisions, but they don't even know how. Yeah,
they feel stupid because they weren't taught this, and that's
exactly how we felt too, and that's where a lot
(34:45):
of the shame stems from, which is a shame.
Speaker 1 (34:47):
And I'm glad that personal finance education is becoming more accessible,
more mandatory, and in many states, curious to see how
that's going to shake out and how good the education
is going to be and how well equip the teachers
are going to be, but at least we're going to
learn be taught something like before we graduate, because there's
a lot of stuff that we get taught in high
school that at least I haven't used since then. And
I'm not throwing shade at high school. I'm just saying, like,
(35:11):
there are some classes that don't really we don't use
some of the skills that we learned far off into
the future. But personal miindance is one of those things
that we all use every single day, and if we
don't know the basics, then we are right to be
taken advantage of. And You're right, like those ties between
our money and our ability to live the life that
(35:32):
we want, they're tight, They're very intense. Money is often
the prevention of people being able to live that sort
of life that they want, and just having a better
education around money is going to make a big difference
for their ability to live that life that they want.
So I'm curious, Haley. At one point, I think you
said the right way you put it in quotation marks,
(35:55):
like you want to tell people to do it the
right way when you put it in quotation marks. What
are you saying there is? Is is there a right
way to handle money or is it contextual? Is it individualized?
Like how do you think about that?
Speaker 4 (36:06):
I think society thinks there's a right way to manage
your money. Society tells us that we need to do.
Speaker 2 (36:13):
What we did.
Speaker 4 (36:13):
We need to go to college, we need to have
money when you need to buy a house, you need
to do all of these things. But that flow isn't
necessarily reality for a lot of people. And I think
when I say the right way with managing money, people
want it to be that they have a lot of money,
they don't have debt, they're feeling good, and they have
you know, the white picket fence, and they're on their
(36:35):
merry way, just like their grandparents told them to do.
And it just is society from generations. It's a deep,
deep thing that we feel like we have to do
it the way. I don't know, it's a complex thing
to even try to explain because it really also is
very personal. What you think is the right way is
(36:58):
probably different from even your partner's way of thinking is
the right way. And I think it also changes over
time too.
Speaker 1 (37:05):
Yeah, I think you're right. I mean, our money and
discussions have changed significantly over time. Our goals have changed
significantly over time, and the hang ups that we had
with money, some of them still exists, but to a
lesser degree in many ways. But gosh, some of those
things still they still come up. Like literally this past weekend,
had a conversation with my wife where I'm like having
(37:27):
this like emotional reaction to something going out with money,
and it's it's really rooted in childhood stuff. And I
have to remember that in the time because it's Yeah,
for so many people. You never like people would be
amazed to hear that this guy who has had a
personal finance podcast for many, many years has been working
in the industry for like almost two decades, Like, how
is it that you still let emotion get the best
(37:47):
of you in that regard? And it just it does
like it because it is it's been there for so long,
and I think that's what a lot of people are
dealing with. I'm curious to Haley, you have a Trauma
of Money certification. What does that mean and how does
that help you? I guess in some of these conversations.
Speaker 4 (38:06):
I went through the Trauma of Money program, and it
was initially for my knowledge of trauma for helping my
clients and to have a trauma informed lens. But it
was the most eye opening, healing thing I've ever done.
And it's also another hard thing to put into words
because I feel like it's been a year, but I'm
still processing everything from that.
Speaker 2 (38:28):
But it really helps me.
Speaker 4 (38:30):
Kind of slow down and ground myself in moments with
even Justin and I were we're having a financial maybe
just like a stress moment, to really sit down and say,
what is this, where is this coming from? Where do
I feel this in my body? How can I release this?
What is the true cause of this, and where did
that come from? And then practicing that on myself and
(38:52):
moving through my own financial trauma also helps me work
with my clients that way and just understanding that this
is more than money, and for a lot of people
it is deep from.
Speaker 2 (39:03):
The way that they were raised.
Speaker 4 (39:04):
And you can't just erase the first twenty years of
your life and be like, Okay, well, now I'm a
CPA and I am good to go because I went
to school and I have my bachelor's degree in economics
and accounting and I am educated. Well, if you grew
up in poverty and your family didn't have a lot
of money, there's a lot there that you need to
(39:25):
work through. Just having the textbook education doesn't heal that.
So that is kind of what all of that trauma
lens stuff works through.
Speaker 2 (39:34):
Really, where does this come from?
Speaker 1 (39:36):
Do you think these two think that getting better with
money and changing your relationship to money change your relationship
to each other? And how did that? What was the
internal work like for you guys? How different do you feel?
Not just because oh, we paid off debt and we've
got we're investing for the future and we're doing the
right thing. But how did that impact you guys? At
(39:56):
like more like a deeper level you want.
Speaker 2 (39:58):
To go first?
Speaker 5 (39:59):
Sure, I think it helped a lot of different things.
It gave us the tools to have really hard conversations
even outside of finances. We're really comfortable voicing our opinions
with one another in a kind way, but in also
a direct way. We don't dance around issues. I think
that it certainly helped our intimacy. Because we didn't have
this stress and tention around money.
Speaker 1 (40:21):
We were able to you don't have to talk about
Dave Ramsey Apple anymore.
Speaker 3 (40:25):
Right, exactly right? Were you know, more lighthearted?
Speaker 5 (40:29):
I think that it gave us this freedom to be
spontaneous with boundaries. As wild as that sounds, but the
spontaneity I think that many couple's crave, they also desire
a boundary around it. And for us, tidying up our
money and our finances gives us those boundaries. So when
(40:50):
we do things, it feels really good and it doesn't
put us out, and it feels in alignment with our
goals and we're able to do it freely.
Speaker 4 (40:57):
I definitely feel like everything that we have worked through
with having a lot of money, well, first off, how
we were raised. We didn't have any money growing up,
and then we got a lottery sized winnings and just
plopped into our lap and we had a really great
time and blew it all. And then also had a
bunch of debt that we racked up, and then we
paid off a bunch of debt.
Speaker 2 (41:17):
It has taught us.
Speaker 4 (41:18):
That we can do anything together as a unit. If
we go through hard times, there's nothing that we can't do.
And I feel truly unstoppable having done what we did.
The sacrifices and the challenge of paying off all of
that debt, it was truly something. This sounds very strange,
but I would do it all again in a heartbeat
(41:40):
because we learned so much from it, and that is
something that you can't learn reading a book. I can't
teach people that. It's the experience, and that really was
so unifying in the early years of our marriage. So
I'm very thankful for everything that we've been through with that.
Speaker 1 (41:56):
Yeah, you too have lived a lot of life in
seven years of marriage. I've got a few more questions
I want to get to with you, and we're gonna
go back to some nitty gritty stuff on the debt front.
I want to hear your thoughts on debt consolidation. So well,
a few more questions with Haley and Justin. Right after this,
(42:18):
we're back still talking about avocado toast and you know,
how to be better with money as a couple. And man,
Haley and Justin, thank you for joining me. I love
your vibe. I love how you guys have been able
to communicate connect with each other on money, and then
how you've been able to influence the lives of so
many others through the coaching that you've done together. I
(42:39):
do want to ask some more questions about about debt.
I'm curious when it comes to when you're talking to
your clients about debt payoff, debt consolidation is something that
comes up. We get a lot of questions about debt consolidation.
It's like, oh, should I take out the helock money
to pay off the credit cards and or personal loan
instead of a credit card? Like maybe I can lower
my interest rate, and there's all these of like gamification
(43:01):
ways that people want to begin that process. What do
you tell people who ask you that question.
Speaker 4 (43:07):
I love talking about this because it's something very relatable
that a lot of people really resonate with. And I'll
just say that the marketing from the debt consolidation companies,
they pour a lot of money into ads and they
really target people on purpose to get them at their
low point where they say, this is going to be
(43:28):
the saving grace, We're going to help you out. And
the answer. I wish it could be just a yes
or no, but it truly depends. Debt consolidation can be
the most amazing blessing for someone, but it ninety nine
percent of the time is a very slippery slope if
you are not working on anything else, if you're just
trying to gamify the system and consolidate your debt, but
(43:48):
you're not working on what got you into debt or
changing the behaviors, or you're not going to start budgeting
or actually tracking your expenses, then you will be stuck
in a debt cycle. I promised that a year from
after you take the heelock out and you pay off
all of your credit cards off, you will have probably
twice as much credit card debt as you already had
to begin with. And I've seen that scenario time and
(44:09):
time again, and that debt cycle is created intentionally by
these companies that want you to take out more personal
loans to consolidate your debt and to start it over
and over and over. So they're not bad if you're
working on the rest of the stuff, But really you
need to emphasize that hard, hard, hard with accountability.
Speaker 2 (44:29):
And I think that that's one of our strengths.
Speaker 1 (44:31):
Yeah, I mean, it's the same with like a balance
transfer credit card right where Ye it seems so that's
the solution for me. All I got to do is
get over paying this twenty percent interest right to the
credit card companies, and then you do the balance transfer
and then you're like, well, I guess the other's stuff
I need to buy, and you're not really paying down
that credit card effectively. You're putting money you know you're
putting You're buying stuff on the original credit card that
(44:53):
where you did the transfer from, and then you end
up in a much worse position. I agree with you
guys on that. What's your take on credit card it's
in general because credit cards, it seems like they can
be a tool to use effectively, but something like fifty
percent of Americans just can't use them. Well, so does
that lead you guys to tell clients like probably should
avoid them or not.
Speaker 4 (45:14):
I think if you're trying to pay off debt, you
should stop using your credit cards entirely. And that's the
hill I will die on, because you need to tell
yourself by your actual actions that you are in control.
When you're in credit card debt, you feel out of control,
and you need to really feed yourself the confidence that
I am in control of this situation. I'm going to
pay this off and I'm going to do this, and
(45:35):
you practice that by stop using the card. But credit
cards in general, if you're managing your money effectively, they
can be super great strategic tools for free travel and
all of that, but all of those benefits are completely
useless the moment you pay interest. So the game, it's
a whole game people think they're playing, and the banks
are the puppets that are like, haa, we're gonna get everyone.
(45:57):
And once you realize that that's what the bank are doing,
it's a little easier to say, Wait, I'm not going
to pay all the extra interest to City Bank, Chase
or whoever.
Speaker 2 (46:07):
I'm going to back off.
Speaker 4 (46:08):
And then once I stop using them for six months
or a year and I pay off all of my
credit card debt, maybe I'll start using them a little
bit and pay them off in full.
Speaker 5 (46:16):
But it really takes time, Yeah, because I think it's
almost ninety nine percent behavioral Right, there are moments where
debt happens to us and we don't have an emergency
fund and we've got to use the credit card for something.
But once we are working with a client and we
can show them, hey, here's maybe what an emergency fund's
going to look like as we get started, or here's
how we're going to keep this credit card safe. We're
(46:38):
not gonna just shred it and get rid of it,
but we're not gonna use it anymore, we're gonna take
it off your Apple Bay or link to your phone
or whatever. I think it's the only way to move forward.
You know, there's so many conversations I've had with a
client where I say, hey, you made a twelve hundred
dollars payment this month on your credit card. That's tremendous.
I want you to scroll down in your transaction log
and see the eight hundred and seventy dollars interest payment
that you also got charged on that card. So while
(47:00):
while you're saying you paid twelve hundred dollars, I'm so
proud of you, look at what an interest took from that.
That's how bad it was beating you up. You got
to stop using this car. You need to put it
away and it can't continue to climb. And I agree
with Haley. You know, once you're out of that pattern
and you're able to tidy up that credit card debt
if you want to use it and you've got a
good structure for gaining the points or rewards or whatnot,
(47:21):
I think that's great. But I also think people need
to be honest with themselves because many people go through
the debt payoff cycle. Don't fix the habits, but they
end up paying off debt somehow still, and then they
start picking up the credit card again and they're right
back into debt.
Speaker 1 (47:33):
It's the same thing with like drinking alcohol. Right some
people it's like I can stop at one beer, and
other people are like.
Speaker 3 (47:37):
I just can't.
Speaker 1 (47:39):
Or potato chips or whatever. It is like that you
find yourself super thrilled by ingesting, like you can overdo
it really quickly, and some people have that ability to
say no, I'm done, you know, in my moderation, I
can handle it. Moderation. If somebody is listening, whether it's
them or a friend, and they find themselves in like
significant amounts of debt or they just feel like their
(48:02):
wheels are spinning and they don't know how to move forward,
what would you tell them to do? And I guess
how important or how crucial do you think one on
one coaching is, because it seems like that sort of
relationship allows a lot of people to jumpstart and start
making progress that have otherwise, whether it's books or other
ways of gleaning information about personal finance, they've been unable
(48:23):
to really that hasn't worked well.
Speaker 4 (48:24):
There's a psychological thing that happens when you pay money
for something, people care about where their money goes. And
when you say that you want to make the change,
and you invest in that change, whatever that is. And
this could also be like paying a personal trainer to
get fit. You're more likely to show up for yourself
and you're more likely to show up for the other
(48:45):
person as well. And frequently in the beginning, people say, Haley,
I only did my homework because.
Speaker 2 (48:51):
I have this scheduled. I say, but you did it.
You showed up and you did it, and we're going
to move forward.
Speaker 4 (48:56):
And I would say to someone who's stuck in a
bunch of debt or they're looking to find the next
how do I get out of this? The first thing
you need to do is just kind of try to
breathe and forgive yourself for some of the stuff that
you've done because or the situation you're in, because a
lot of the shame is just so debilitating. And that's
a lot of what we do. But you can also
(49:18):
work on that without a coach. Now, coaching is I
think what we do is amazing and we love helping people,
but it's for specific people.
Speaker 5 (49:27):
What do you say I would agree with all that,
I would just say logistically, people need to write down
their numbers. Clearly, people will say like I think I
have about ten thousand dollars a credit card debt, and
then they go and they go, oh my gosh, like
I saw what everything is and it's actually yeah, thirty
five thousand or even you know, yeah, or I had,
you know, down to this exact number and I'm actually
over on that credit card.
Speaker 3 (49:47):
I didn't even.
Speaker 5 (49:47):
Realize that I was past the limit somehow. And it's
because we want to do the Ostrich thing. The osage
thing isn't going to work, whether you're working with a
coach or trying to diy this by yourself. The Ostrich
bury your head in the sand will never get you
where you want to be. You got to come up
for air, and you got to write down the numbers
and get a little bit vulnerable with yourself.
Speaker 1 (50:04):
Beautiful wy to end it, Hailey, justin thank you so
much for joining me. Where where can how do money
listeners go find out more about you guys? And also like, yeah,
you're coaching and see the price of avocado toasts everything
in that underbelly.
Speaker 3 (50:18):
Yeah, you can go to our website.
Speaker 5 (50:19):
Price of avocadotost dot com across all social media's we're
just at price of avocado toasts. If you search that
we should hopefully show up, you can see kind of
who we are in our day to day and what
we do is coaches and how we show up for folks,
and in all of our social media and on our
website are one to one coaching application is linked. If
somebody wants to fill it out, we meet for a
free call just to hear more about their story and
(50:40):
whether or not we're the right fit for them, and
if not, we'll show them maybe the right resource or
who is So yeah.
Speaker 1 (50:45):
Awesome, thanks for joining me. I appreciate it.
Speaker 3 (50:47):
Awesome, thanks to appreciate you.
Speaker 2 (50:48):
Thank you.
Speaker 1 (50:49):
Okay. I'm just a big fan of both Haley and
Justin and with their powers combined, they become like Captain
Planet and the work they're doing in this base with
individuals and then just like you know, reaching people in
a larger way through through their own podcast and social media.
It's it's a beautiful thing to behold and they really
(51:10):
are changing lives. When you think about two people helping
a bunch of people pay off four million dollars worth
of debt. That's incredible, that's laudable. It's worth highlighting. And
I think there's like a million things I could highlight
as big takeaways from this conversation. I love kind of
towards the end when Haley said to invest in the
change you want to see in your own life and
(51:31):
how that can look like paying a financial counselor like
them right to be that accountability partner for you, and
if you've got some money, some skin in the game
towards that goal that you want, if that really is
your goal, Like, hey, we get a gym membership if
we want to get ripped right, Well, if you want
to get your money together, maybe it makes sense to
like buy a book or to pony up for a
(51:54):
counselor relationship. But whatever that is for you, invest in
the change that you're trying to see and then realize.
I think too. I love what they were talking about
how as you make progress with your money, especially if
you're in a relationship, I think, just the relationship to yourself.
Because money impacts so many areas of our lives, your
(52:17):
relationship to yourself can change significantly in the process of
getting good with your finances. So it's not really just
about building your net worth and increasing your wealth and
decreasing your debt. Those are great things, those are worthy goals,
and just realize that there's going to be some really
cool byproducts involved at the same time as you're making
progress with your money, because you're going to learn more
(52:39):
about yourself and what makes you tick, and you're going
to gain knowledge, but you're also going to gain perspective.
And so yeah, Justin and Haley talked about the fact
that they have better combos in every area of life now,
and I think that's true. I think like as my
wife and I made progress with our money, the way
it impacted our relationship. Not to say it was easy,
(53:02):
it wasn't always easy. Some of those conversations are hard.
Sometimes money conversations are still hard because they bring up
those ancillary parts, those other parts of you that make
you a whole human being, and you have to drag
those into the conversation about money too, And so it's
not always easy, but it's always worthwhile because we're growing
together in deeper ways. And so they think the more
(53:24):
you take money off the table as a topic that
you're interested in pursuing yourself to make progress the more
you take it off the table of your relationships, whether
it's a spouse or whether it's friends. The more we
don't talk about money, the more we're doing a disservice
to ourselves, because I do think that it can allow
us to grow and thrive in some beautiful ways. And also,
(53:46):
like we'll just spread the money knowledge right so that
we can understand some best practices with money and how
those relate to our ability to live the life that
we want and to thrive, because really that's what it's about.
None of us are aiming for those or know how
to money listeners that I have met, or aiming for
those Elon Musk, Bill Gates, Warren Buffett levels of wealth.
(54:10):
They really just want to feel confident in their finances.
They want to be doing have more optionality in the future,
they want to be working towards brighter, bigger goals for
their family. That's what I want, That's what I want,
and that's what I want for you. So I hope
this episode was inspiring. Thank you as always for listening.
Show notes will be up on the website at howtomoney
(54:31):
dot com. Until next time, Best Friend Out
Welcome to how to Money. I'm Joel, and today we're
talking why you should eat the avocado toast with Justin
and Haley Brown's Wood. Okay, so the supposed luxury of
(00:29):
avocado toast along with the latte, it's become an okay
boomer personal finance tip, right. Stop spending on those two
things and you'll finally be able to create some financial
margin in your life. Cue the eye roll. Nobody thinks
that's real life. And my guest today are proof that
you can grow up without any real money knowledge. You
can quickly churn through a six hundred thousand dollars settlement.
(00:51):
You can still pay off six figures in debt all
on a teacher salary. Lot packed into this one today.
Justin and Haley Browns Woods are one of my favoritavorite
couples in the personal finance space. Fun facts they met
on Okay Cupid back in the day. We can talk
about that, guys if you want. They loathe Dave Ramsey,
which we will get into as well, and now they're
financial counselors. They use their empathetic abilities and their hard
(01:14):
fought money wins to help others overcome money hang ups,
tackle debt and heal their relationship with money. So, Haley
and Justin, thank you for joining me today on the show.
Speaker 2 (01:23):
Thank you so much for having us.
Speaker 3 (01:25):
Yeah, this is so exciting. Thanks for celebrating us there.
Speaker 1 (01:28):
Oh you got okay so okay Cupid? How'd that go down?
Who reached out to?
Speaker 4 (01:31):
Who?
Speaker 1 (01:33):
Tell me the love story?
Speaker 3 (01:34):
Yeah? This is like my favorite story.
Speaker 2 (01:35):
But he really likes to bash me here.
Speaker 3 (01:37):
Yeah, I really do.
Speaker 5 (01:38):
I found Haley on okay Cupid and another dating site
at the same time. Plenty of fish, Yeah, plenty of fish,
not tender, don't worry.
Speaker 2 (01:46):
Uh.
Speaker 3 (01:46):
But I reached out to her and she ghosted.
Speaker 5 (01:48):
Me for like two weeks no way, and I'm thinking,
what the heck, We're ninety four percent compatible?
Speaker 3 (01:53):
What's going on here?
Speaker 5 (01:54):
And eventually she messaged me and said, I'm sorry I
had to sift through just gross messages from other people.
I bet here I am, and we sparked a conversation
and the rest is history. We're actually celebrating our seven
year anniversary today.
Speaker 3 (02:06):
Joel today today.
Speaker 1 (02:08):
Congratulations. I we could have found another day so you
didn't have to talk to me. Okay, yes, is great,
this is exciting stuff. I'm so thrilled for you happy anniversary.
I would have sent you some peers or something speaking
which first question I gotta ask you really is, what's
your craft bear equivalent? What do you guys like to
spend money on? Your super intentional, thoughtful about saving and
investing for the future. What do you splurge on in
(02:30):
the here and now?
Speaker 5 (02:31):
I would say, for me, just in this season of life,
my guilty pleasure is fantasy football.
Speaker 3 (02:36):
Not like daily gambling.
Speaker 5 (02:39):
But I cannot turn down my friends and the fantasy
leagues I've been in for ten years, even though every
year I'm like, why am I doing this? I'm just
losing my one hundred dollars every year, But you know,
I figure one hundred dollars stretched out over five months
is worth it to me, and it reconnects me with
some of my friends.
Speaker 3 (02:54):
So I would say it's probably fantasy football for me.
Speaker 4 (02:56):
Okay, I really love spending money on myself. I love
self care. I feel like it is life giving. And
being a mom of three kids five and under and
running a business from home with the kid at home
with us like it is chaos and I just need
to step away and go get my nails done. Or
(03:17):
go get my hair done and self care things really
fill my cup. So it's worth every penny.
Speaker 1 (03:22):
Okay, I love it every time, love it. Those are
both great things. And you're right.
Speaker 3 (03:26):
You're right.
Speaker 1 (03:26):
I mean, like all work and no play makes us
stol right, And that's kind of the heart behind some
of your brand which I want to get into as well,
and some of how you guys talk about money, which
I think is really refreshing. But before we get there,
let's start kind of with some of the story stuff.
And justin at one point you inherited six hundred thousand
dollars and this is just this is like the craziest
(03:48):
story to me was this was this like the impetus
for you to get your finances together where you like boom,
large chunk of change. I guess I'm going to start
figuring out how to save effectively and invest wisely? Or
is that not how it went down?
Speaker 3 (04:03):
That is definitely not how it went down. Yeah, I
wish that was how it went down. Yeah.
Speaker 5 (04:08):
In twenty fifteen, my grandmother passed away from mesothelioma, which
is as best as caused lung cancer. It's kind of
what all those commercials are talking about that's essentially what
my grandma went through. And in the process of her decline,
my grandfather started a wrongful death lawsuit on her behalf,
and when she passed away, that lawsuit finalized and money
came down to the kiddos. And so I received six
(04:29):
hundred thousand dollars and two checks straight to my search
to my house where Haley and I were living. You know,
just go put him in the bank and five days
later you can have access to him. And I had
no financial education growing up, as you know, a kid
from a single mom household. Hailey was the exact same,
and so we really started to kind of just lean
into the things we thought were smart. And so I
(04:51):
went and caught up on two years of roth Ira
investing because somebody said you should talk to a financial advisor,
and we ended up buying a house or putting, you know,
a down payment down on a house because we thought, well,
we're supposed to own a home one day. But then
beyond that, we really just kind of inflated our lifestyle
and started to spend money in ways that we're bringing
us joy, but that we're not going to serve us
(05:13):
long term. And eventually, in about three and a half years.
Not only did we blow through the six hundred thousand dollars,
but we got into over two hundred and twenty thousand
dollars of debt just by inflating our lifestyle and again
quote unquote kind of doing the right thing, but not
knowing the right way to go about it.
Speaker 1 (05:28):
M okay, yeah, Halo. What was that like for you?
As you know? And Justin said, Hey, neither of us
had much of a financial education growing up. We're usually
taught something about money, right, whether it's like good, bad,
and different. What was your financial education as a childlike
and how did that impact you?
Speaker 2 (05:49):
My financial education as a child was just.
Speaker 4 (05:52):
Observing a lot of what not to do from my parents,
kind of fumbling the ball quite a bit.
Speaker 2 (05:57):
Yeah, and we.
Speaker 4 (06:00):
This happened in twenty sixteen where we got the money.
In twenty twelve, I watched my parents go through a
nasty multi year divorce. They lost two houses. Like it
was really financially like traumatic financial trauma is what it
was for me. So yeah, when Justin and I received
all that money was it was technically Justin's money one
(06:20):
hundred percent his, but we combined our lives fully from
the beginning, so I totally took part in spending all
of the money as well, and the education was nothing
about like what to do. I do have very vivid
memory of that time of us just casually transferring twenty
grand over from savings into our checking frequently, and we
(06:44):
didn't really realize the money was being spent until it
was totally gone, which is a really surreal thing to
go through, where money is quite literally slipping through your
fingers and you don't know it's happening, and then one
day you blink and you're like, wait, we had how
much money and it's gone. And I had had that
happen in my life before, with a very small inheritance
(07:07):
I got from my uncle. It was a twenty five
thousand dollars inheritance that I got right before I moved
to Sweden to study abroad, and I didn't have any
education about what to do with that money. And I
spent all of that in a year traveling, and then
nobody ever questioned it either. No one asked me what
I did with the money, no one asked me if
I invested.
Speaker 2 (07:26):
It, or it was never talked about again.
Speaker 4 (07:29):
So I think that it all comes back to the
financial education that I had was just silence. Nobody talked
about anything.
Speaker 1 (07:36):
I don't think that's abnormal either. I think that's what
a lot of people go through. They see maybe bad
habits and then nobody talks to them about because you
know who would talk to them their parents, who don't
really know much about money either. And so yeah, that
sort of silence and just bad habits get passed down
through osmosis, and typically we're doing our behaviors reflect what
our parents did. Oftentimes I'm curious too, like during that
(07:59):
period where you were inflating your lifestyle and you were
spending more and so you know, justin not all of
it was bad. You started the roth Ira, you bought
a house, which at least like hey, there's that's not
a depreciating asset. But were you did you feel happy?
Were there unsettled feelings like during that time, like what
was going what was going through your mind and what
(08:19):
was your body feeling? Right as like you've got this
inheritance and you're spending it down.
Speaker 5 (08:23):
To be quite honest, I think this is the part
that we might get some gruff for. We had a
great time, like we were going out on wine, dates.
We were traveling to get you know, six rows back
at the Titans game because I loved the Titans and
wanted to travel in Nashville all the way from California.
We upgraded to a townhouse that we were renting that
(08:44):
we probably didn't need to. We could have done way less,
but we had the money to go through, and so
we lived in this really nice part of town in
a really nice townhouse, and we upgraded you know the
things in there. We spent on a personal trainer. It
was just things that we really enjoyed in our lives.
We had nice cars. It's again probably the thing we're
(09:05):
gonna get gruff for, but yeah, it was nice.
Speaker 3 (09:08):
It was a fun time in our lives.
Speaker 1 (09:09):
Yeah, No, I that makes sense, like spending money that
you have, Yeah, feels good, but also when you're done
with that, when it's gone, and then when you're also
in credit card debt, because you're like, man, we didn't
even stop after the money was gone. We kept going,
what does that feel like?
Speaker 5 (09:25):
Well? I think that's the interesting part because I wasn't
aware of any of that. Haley really was managing the
finances for our entire household, and I thought she was
so great and just crushing it. And how lucky was
I that I found a partner who was willing to
shoulder this load that I didn't even really know what
was going on. I could see that Hailey was stressed
and we would maybe have a conversation about it, but
it wasn't really in the weeds with her, so I
(09:47):
wasn't even fully aware of it until about a year
after our wedding. At that point, the wedding was the
last time that we really spent any money from the
initial pot. We had a beautiful thirty thousand dollars wedding
and that was it. We ran out of money. And
a year into our marriage, we were taking a trip
to Monterey for our anniversary and we're like a week
(10:07):
into the month and Haley says, hey, our paychecks from
teaching are already gone, so the rest of the month
is going to be put onto credit cards. And that
was really the first conversation that I had of like, oh, whoa,
Like that's where that's not good. We're doing something wrong here,
Like we really screwed the pooch on this one. But
up until then I had no clue what was going on.
(10:28):
So I wasn't even fully aware of it. I'm sure
you probably were feeling way different than me at the time.
Speaker 4 (10:33):
I tried to have conversations with him and bring up
the stress at different times, but because I didn't witness
people talking about money, I didn't really know how to
bring it up in a way that it just I
didn't know what I was doing. And right before that,
maybe like six months before that Monterey trip moment, we
actually listened to the entire Dave Ramsey Total Money Makeover
(10:56):
audiobook on a road trip, and that was the initial
seed plan in both of our heads off maybe there
is another way to get out of this debt, but
we didn't really do anything about it afterwards until we
have the moment of Okay, we really need to It's
not like maybe we should now now we need to
do something about this because we're in a pickle and
(11:18):
we need to get out of it. But like, I
don't know that looking back, i'd remember any time where
I said, hey, justin I'm really stressed. I feel like
we should be concerned. We've spent all of the money
from the initial six hundred thousand dollars pop.
Speaker 2 (11:34):
Maybe we should slow it down.
Speaker 4 (11:36):
I think it was just stressed that stayed inside and
wasn't ever made into words, and it's he's not dumb.
He could look at the bank and see that the
money wasn't there, but for some reason, it just didn't
click for us that it was gone. And I think
that when we really dive into all of that, it
comes from the way that we were raised with not having.
Speaker 2 (11:56):
A lot of money.
Speaker 4 (11:56):
We never had a lot of money, so when the
money was gone, it was like whatever, now we're just
back to natural state of just not having any money.
And it didn't really feel like a big stressor that
the money was gone until we realized how much debt
we were in.
Speaker 1 (12:09):
That was stressful because then you're digging digging yourself out
of a hole. You're not just right, It is not
you just blew through. You're just like, okay, now we
actually have to get back to square one. And you
mentioned Dave Ramsey, and I do I have some questions
about that because he is the man you love to
hate at times, but you also he was an instrumental
part of your money journey, Like so totally were you
(12:32):
following his advice to a t How were you like
quickly like learning your own lingo, establishing your own flow.
You're like, all right, I'll take a few of these tips,
but now I'm going to go my own way. Like
what what was your relationship like with him with the
information that he delivers and how did it help you?
At least initially, we.
Speaker 4 (12:51):
Leaned in on Dave Ramsey for support and for community
when we felt really lonely and we didn't really know
how to communicate with other people about all of our
debt and the current financial state that we were in,
and so that was super helpful. We never really followed
his system to a tea even from the beginning, but
we did listen to his show for three hours a day,
(13:12):
five days a week for about a year and a half.
Speaker 1 (13:16):
Straight to the main vein Dave Ramsey. Yeah, yeah, I remember,
justin like you. At one point you talked about being
you listened to so much Dave and then I think
maybe you're commute ended or something like that, and You're like,
what am I going to listen to Dave? I don't know,
it's like an addiction for you.
Speaker 3 (13:32):
It literally was.
Speaker 5 (13:33):
I mean it was our first year of marriage and
I would say, like we would talk about uncle Dave
when we were in the shower together. Yeah, and it's
like that's a very odd thing for a newlywed couple
to be talking about in the shower.
Speaker 3 (13:44):
But it's just so like you said, we were just like.
Speaker 5 (13:46):
Mainlining Dave Ramsey and it was it was all that
was consuming us was his content, even if we weren't
fully following his plan.
Speaker 1 (13:53):
Okay, And as especially people who are in significant amounts
of debt like Dave, can be a really motivating force
for people who are in that spot in their lives.
So was that the kick in the pants you needed.
Speaker 4 (14:05):
The system of just put your head down and hustle
and get it done did work very well for Jetson
and I. It worked very well for us specifically our
personality types and we are the type of people that
can just get it done. But what we've realized over
time we now work with people directly helping them with
their finances, is that is not normal. We are definitely
(14:29):
the anomaly in that situation for the average people who
can just like pay off debt super fast and stay
out of debt. So for us, it did work and
it was what we needed for sure in that moment.
Speaker 1 (14:43):
One of the tips that I think Dave Gibbs and
I don't want to talk about him for too long
feels a wile kind of meta multiple personal Finance creators
talking about this other personal vance creator. But he's a
big part of your story. And one of the tips
he gives for a lot of people who are in
this sort of phase what they have a lot of
credit card that they're trying to get rid of it
in short order is to work multiple jobs. Justin you
(15:05):
took that advice. Were you working like three jobs at
one point? And like what was that like for you?
I'm curious is the intensity maybe of some of the suggestions.
Does that feel approachable now or does it feel ridiculous?
Like how do you think about that period of time?
Speaker 3 (15:21):
Yeah, it was pretty intense.
Speaker 5 (15:23):
You know. I was teaching Monday through Friday, and then
I was bartending and serving pizzas at a pizzeri and
wine bar in the evening. And so I would get
home from teaching, I'd kiss Haley and our daughter, and
then I would go to the pizza joint and I
would serve and bartend from like four thirty to ten
o'clock at night, go home, and you know, put the
cash in the Manila envelope that David told us to
(15:44):
kind of track everything on, and then I.
Speaker 3 (15:46):
Would wake up in the morning and do it again.
Speaker 5 (15:48):
And actually, right before the pandemic, I ended up getting
a third job as a banquet server to try and
pick up extra days at a really nice restaurant in
Wine Country. Unfortunately, or maybe fortunately because of the pandemic,
I never worked for that company, but you know, it
was fully prepared to have those three jobs. And you know,
Haley and I consistently talked about this idea and even
now with our clients. You can do just about anything
(16:09):
for a season and a reason, and there are seasons
of life where maybe you do want to hustle. Maybe
it helps you to get that side hustle where you're
you know, picking up a second job and throwing it
towards a goal or throwing it towards something. But it's
a very specific scenario. I think that fits that right.
I was a teacher during the pandemic, so I was
teaching from home. I was still seeing my family pretty frequently,
(16:32):
and then I was going to the pizza esta on it,
and so I didn't miss out on a ton of time.
If it were today, where things are opened up. Maybe
and I was back to work and I didn't have
as much time, it would be a lot more difficult,
you know. I only had to go through the stage
of only seeing them for an hour a day for
two months before the world shut down, and then I
was teaching from home. But for those two months it
(16:53):
was hard. It was really hard, And I don't know
if I would recommend that for most folks nowadays. I
think there are better ways to do it than that
kind of deprivation and that go go go kind of
hustler mentality. I don't even think I know there's better
ways to do it now.
Speaker 1 (17:07):
Do you think some people burn out because of that
sort of intensity either, Like I have the right desire,
but my goodness, the sort of like boot camp mentality
just it's too intense for me. I'm just opting out altogether, definitely.
Speaker 5 (17:20):
And I think for many people it's just kind of
recreating the diet culture fad of like you can do
anything if you just kind of race to burn out
as fast as possible. But the question is, did you
set up the right habits and patterns and behaviors to
not get yourself back.
Speaker 3 (17:33):
Into that situation? And for many people, we don't.
Speaker 5 (17:36):
We side hustle, or we find some debt payoff strategy,
we pay off debt. We're like whoo, and then we
look up two years later and we're back into that
debt because we never fixed any of the root causes.
Speaker 3 (17:45):
And I think for us.
Speaker 5 (17:46):
That certainly could have been part of our journey as
well if we didn't confront some things.
Speaker 1 (17:50):
And your main gigs. You're both teachers in California. For
a lot of years, some people would say that overcoming
six figures of debt is impossible on like a teacher sound.
But it's not because you guys did it. So can
you talk to me about what that process was like,
the sacrifices you had to make, and kind of the
habits you had had to learn in order to make
(18:12):
that a possibility, and how long did it take to
pay off that debt.
Speaker 4 (18:15):
The first thing we did was we just started meticulously
tracking every single dollar that was coming in and out
of our bank, and we cut everything that was any
form of extra We definitely cut the avocado toast and
we had a very basic bear budget. That's what we did.
(18:35):
But then it was also this is really important. It
was during the pandemic. We didn't leave the house, so
it was very easy for us to just not spend money.
We didn't do anything that was easy enough, and because
our budget was so fine tuned, any extra form of
money during that period of time. We got COVID stimulus money,
there was the child tax credit money. We were able
(18:56):
to put that extra towards everything, but a lot of
it did come from extra money from justin working. I
also was a real estate photographer at the time, very
part time, But any extra money that we got also
just fully funneled there. But we got it to a
point where we were able to have extra in our
budget from just our teaching salaries, so anything extra really
(19:19):
made a dent.
Speaker 1 (19:20):
And how serious were you about debt eradication was it?
I mean obviously getting multiple jobs, willing to get a
third job, so pretty dang serious. And then didn't you
sell your home in order to go into a rental
instead because you wanted to take that equity to pay
off the debt? Like was it just kind of like, Hey,
we're throwing anything against the wall to see what sticks,
(19:40):
Like this is how much we hate this debt right now? Yeah?
Speaker 5 (19:42):
Yeah, we ended up selling you know, paid off vehicles
that we had purchased, and that was a big chunk
to go towards student loans. The kind of final straw was, yeah,
selling our home and moving away. I think a catalyst
for that as well was that we were moving closer
towards Haley's mom and could have some help with childcare
as well while we had a young family, and so
we thought, Okay, are we comfortable making this decision right
(20:04):
now in this kind of early infancy of our family
to see where it's going to push us to. And
eventually we did sell our home, paid off a little
bit more consumer debt, but paused on paying off our
student loan debt because of the wild flux that is
student loan debt and also our own personal finance education journey.
(20:24):
The idea of paying off student loans that could potentially
be forgiven on your public service loan forgiveness as teachers
wasn't as beneficial as investing money instead.
Speaker 3 (20:34):
For us.
Speaker 5 (20:35):
At that point, we had kind of grown out of
Dave Ramsey and that idea of fast track towards debt
and really started to decide what does the financial journey
look like decades from now? For our family, and how
can we get to that destination rather than the debt
free destination.
Speaker 1 (20:47):
Haley, I'm curious to hear from you about those bigger
moves that you made. Do you feel like that's necessary
for most people? I mean, it sounds like you guys
took some of the biggest big moves possible, getting additional jobs,
selling the house to rent instead selling paid off vehicles.
A lot of people would say, like, have that sunk
cost fallacy sort of thing. Well, the vehicle's already appreciated
(21:08):
some I need a car to get around, right, I'm
not gonna sell my car. How did you guys think
about the big stuff, and do you think that more
people should be willing to take more bold moves like
that instead of just nibbling around the edges when it
comes to debt payoff.
Speaker 4 (21:22):
This kind of sounds Dave Ramsey ish, but I think
it depends on how fast and how bad you want
it in the season that you're in. The season we
were in was we need to pay this off as
fast as humanly possible, because that was our goal. But
a lot of people are like, if that was us
right now with young, young kids, I don't know that
(21:42):
those moves would be made. I don't know that we
would sell a very reliable vehicle that was paid off
in order to fast track things when we could just
keep that safe car for our family because we have
young kinds and we need to have a reliable vehicle and.
Speaker 1 (21:56):
Just stretch that timeline out just a little.
Speaker 4 (21:58):
Bit, right and it it really does come down to
the season of life that you're in. For us, it
was kind of a no brainer. But I've seen a
lot of people make those decisions and then they're kind
of like, well, maybe I didn't need to do that,
So it really depends.
Speaker 1 (22:12):
All right, we've got I got a few more questions
I want to get to with you guys, including I
want to talk more about debt payoff hacks. I want
to talk about budgeting, y'all's takes on budgeting and just
how you've helped clients in a one on one way
really make progress with their money, not just with the numbers,
but with the way they think about it. We'll get
to some more questions with Justin and Haley right after this.
Speaker 5 (22:37):
Art.
Speaker 1 (22:37):
We're back still talking with Justin and Hailey. They are
from the Price of Avocado Toast and we're talking about
their story and just really how I don't know, maybe
it's okay to eat the avocado toast. I'm curious to
hear your take, guys, because you remember that was a
trope for so long. There was like the Latte Factor book,
and then it was like, man, if the millennials would
(22:58):
just stop eating that dang avocado toast, they could probably
reach financial independence in like three and a half years, right,
And some of it just feels utterly absurd, but there's
also like a little bit of truth right to the
small things that we do every day that add up
and if you make coffee at home versus going out, Like, yeah,
if you do that every day, it adds up. So
I'm curious to hear I want to hear your take,
(23:20):
like why did you have why'd you come up with
the name the price of avocado toast? And then what's
your take on those small purchases.
Speaker 5 (23:27):
Yeah, we ended up with the name price of Avocado
Toast for our own podcast because we did an Instagram
poll about the podcast and what we're going to talk
about and said what should we name it? And somebody
said cost of Avocado Toast. But we were both elementary
school teachers and didn't like the vowel sounds there like
cost of avocado, and so we went with price of
avocado toast. And you know, when we think about this
(23:49):
idea of like not getting the avocado toast or not
getting the latte, I think you hit it on the head.
There is some truth in that, and it's up to
all of us that kind of sort out what is
that truth for me in my life? And maybe it's
the avocado toast, but maybe it is the daily fantasy
sports gambling, or maybe it is the trips that I'm
struggling to say no to with a friend, or maybe
(24:10):
it's the thousand subscriptions that I have. Right, I think
that we get very singular in this idea of like
trimming things down, and not all of it needs to
be trimmed. Right. The seventeen dollars stream probably isn't moving
the needle that much for you. But when you have
seven of them and you get rid of four and
you throw that at your credit card instead.
Speaker 3 (24:30):
How much faster is that credit card paid off?
Speaker 5 (24:32):
And is the value there more important to you? And
if it is, well, then let's do that for a
season of life, right, we went down to I think
it was Sling TV and only Sling TV when we
were in the depths of our you know, kind of journey,
and that was what we had and it was like
really cheap that it was like maybe nine dollars at
the time for their like basic plan.
Speaker 2 (24:49):
I don't even think we had a NetPlane.
Speaker 3 (24:50):
Yeah, and it.
Speaker 5 (24:51):
Worked for us, right, And so I think that there
is this honesty behind Hey, where am I spending money
that doesn't align with the values that I have right
now in my life? And am I comfortable getting rid
of some of these things? We still want to have
joy and we still want to find ways to build
joy into your budget, which is key on the journey
so that you're not you know, burning out.
Speaker 3 (25:09):
But it is.
Speaker 5 (25:10):
Also confronting those harder conversations of is this something that
is serving me right now in this moment.
Speaker 1 (25:16):
And is that as simple as like weighing the pros
and the cons. Hey, if I keep the streaming service
around me, is my credit card debt is going to
be around for another like a month and a half
or what is it? Kind of like are you getting
that granular with it or how are you helping people
think through those decisions, because especially for folks who are
like I feel like I've been on this debt treadmill
for a long time, interest rates like twenty two percent
(25:37):
now it's kind of crushing me. It's really burdened some
We all know that like debt can be mentally afflicting.
So how do you help people think about those trade
offs of like moving more more quickly towards debt payoff
versus yeah, a little more slowly and incorporating some more
of those things that you care about right now.
Speaker 4 (25:57):
One of the things that we do with people pretty
early on that we do an activity that helps them
identify what their values are. And once the values are identified,
we can use the values and the goals together to
figure out where is our money going and.
Speaker 2 (26:12):
Does it fill our cups.
Speaker 4 (26:13):
For some people, the value might be security, and that
might mean financial security. I need to know that my
family's going to be okay. I need to know that
we're going to have a house over our head, the
bills are paid, the debt is paid off. That might
be a value of theirs. And the goal might simultaneously
be that they want to pay off their debt. So
for them, it's really easy to just like hustle, hustle, hustle,
where someone else their value might be travel and community
(26:37):
and being around the people that bring them joy. So
they might be unwilling to maybe sacrifice the family vacation,
so they're okay prolonging it. So it really does depend
on what the goals are and the values for each person.
So we can figure out something that's going to not
only make you happy, but be a sustainable way to
get to the end goal for you.
Speaker 1 (26:59):
And you too, have helped clients pay off more than
four million dollars worth of debt, and I want to say, right,
I mean, everybody has a different financial situation, but I'm curious,
what are maybe like the biggest things that your clients
tend to not understand or to not be doing. That
feels like the lowest hanging fruit. So someone's coming to
you for that initial consultation and you're like, well, have
you looked at this, this and this? And most people
(27:20):
just hasn't crossed their minds their mind to look at
those things. What are those things?
Speaker 5 (27:23):
To be honest, jol, A lot of the folks we
work with are just like us back in the day, right,
they were not maybe budgeting or tracking their expenses. And
it is sometimes as simple as saying, hey, like, we're
going to sit down and we're going to create a
budget that feels really good for your life, and I'm
going to show you how to track your expenses, and
then I'm going to be an accountability coach. It's going
to stick you to it and make sure that you
(27:44):
are following through. And when you show somebody those numbers
and make it really clear for them and just say, hey,
I've run these numbers for you and here's exactly what
it can be if you want to come along for
this journey.
Speaker 3 (27:55):
Are you up for it? And they say yes.
Speaker 5 (27:56):
I mean it's almost immediate that folks have a return,
you know, the first two month working with us, they're like,
oh wow, I mean I've already paid off this much
debt or I've already crushed this much amount, or I've
already seen this light at the end of the tunnel.
Because it really is just kind of this awakening, this
educational piece that I think Hayley and I are really
good at as former teachers, of saying hey, here's the
(28:17):
scaffolding that you need, here's this beginning step, and if
you take this step, here's where the journey's gonna go.
And when we set it up for people like that
and they're able to see it, there's truly no stopping people.
So it's really as simple as like, let's get on
a budget, let's track our expenses, let's trim the dining out,
let's trim the extracurriculars that you're not paying attention to,
and I'm still gonna put all of this other fun
stuff in your budget and you're gonna crush debt. And
(28:39):
doesn't that feel really good?
Speaker 1 (28:41):
Is do you think part of the problem is that
people assume they're doing better than they are.
Speaker 3 (28:44):
Yes, I think you're spot on.
Speaker 1 (28:46):
When you look at the data about how much people
are spending on subscriptions, they just assume that they're spending
like one hundred bucks a month, but really the average
person is spending like three hundred bucks a month. So
they just assume certain things that just aren't true and
they haven't really reflected on that.
Speaker 3 (29:01):
Yes, we see that.
Speaker 4 (29:02):
Sorry, go ahead, well, I was actually going to say
that people have no idea how they should be budgeting,
like everything justin said, and if people get paid every
other week, they need to be budgeting on a week
like pay period budget because if you get paid September
twenty sixth, and then the next paycheck is October fifth,
that paycheck goes from September twenty six to October fourth.
(29:25):
It has part of September and part of October, probably
your mortgage or your rent as well. So there's this
concept of budgeting by month that every single budgeting app
only budgets by month. I have yet to see a
budgeting app that is a pay period budgeting app, and
everything you download online is just monthly budgeting templates. They
continue to input their numbers. They're like the mouth says
(29:47):
I should have extra money, but I don't. I'm constantly
out of money. I'm living paycheck to paycheck. Where's this going.
It's a cash flow problem with how the money is
coming in and the money is coming out. They really
need to get clear and make paycheck to paycheck, but
on an intentional way, really just taking a spin on
what does paycheck to paycheck look like and break it down,
(30:08):
and once people do that, they're like, WHOA, this is
way easier than I thought.
Speaker 1 (30:12):
Do you think that's why people are turning to buy now,
pay later or the apps they allow you to get
paid early, and then it's only like making the situation
worse because it's like, oh, that's the only way I'd
be able to afford the thing I'm I'm trying to buy.
I thought I had the money. I don't. I guess
I'll just do that, Or thought the paycheck was coming
in like but or thought I had enough money, But
I guess I need my paycheck early. And then it
just becomes like this like really nasty cycle.
Speaker 3 (30:34):
And the accessibility of it is so easy.
Speaker 5 (30:37):
I mean you obviously back in the day, you know
if you're going to a pay day lender, you're walking
into a store. Nowadays, it's on your phone at two
in the morning when you're in the depths of some
type of emotional crisis. Yeah, you have access to it.
And that's what's really scary to me is it's so
easy to get access to it.
Speaker 3 (30:51):
All.
Speaker 1 (30:51):
That's what I want to talk about next, is like
the emotion and the like when you're talking to clients,
how much of an impact does their emotional state have?
How much are you addressing that? And in particular shame,
I think it can mess with a lot of people
for a long period of time and not allow them
really to make progress. They feel really, they fe really stuck,
(31:12):
and they feel a shamed that they don't know what
to do.
Speaker 3 (31:15):
Joe.
Speaker 5 (31:15):
One of the questions we ask people on our initial
application just to get on a free call with us
to talk about what we do and what their story
is and how we can maybe help or if they
need another resource, is we ask them what are your
reservations about one to one coaching? And you would think
that the number one question that people say is I
don't know how I'm going to pay for this or
I don't know how to afford it, right, which is
the elephant the room. Why would I pay somebody to put,
(31:36):
you know, work together to pay off my debt? That
is not the biggest thing that people say. The biggest
thing people say is I'm embarrassed about my debt and
I don't want to be shamed. And we have heard
that narrative so frequently. Just this past week, I'm in
a conversation with somebody talking about the shame they're feeling
around money and whether or not we should work together
because they're worried that we're going to shame them. And obviously,
(31:56):
you know, we just redirect them towards our content and say, hey, friend,
like that ain't us. You just go watch a million
videos or stories and you'll see that's not who we are.
But that really is the biggest issue for many people
is this shame and this guilt that they carry around debt.
And it's I think because many of our clients are
from the millennial generation where we were sold this bill
of goods of do X, Y and Z and life
(32:19):
will turn out okay, and maybe they're not seeing that
come to fruition and this is just an added step
on top of that of oh, I must have done
something wrong to not get to that point. And sure
we all have our own context to our story that
we need to honor and say what is my part
in this? But for many of them, the shame and
embarrassment of not hitting these mile markers in life is
(32:41):
really really heavy. So a lot of our initial work
with people doesn't even start to touch a budget. It
really looks at the emotional aspects and the things that
are weighing them down and trying to kind of relieve
that burden and set down that baggage so that we
can do the rest of the work.
Speaker 1 (32:56):
Like part therapist, part money coach, kind of a combo
or Halich. Yeah, so, Haley, that's what you feel too
when you're talking to clients, like you're both of those
things at once.
Speaker 3 (33:04):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (33:04):
We are actually now accredited financial counselors because I really
wanted to go forward with the designation of being a
financial counselor because that's what I felt like I was doing.
I felt like I was helping people with their finances
and I was their counselor. And so much of it
is your relationship with money and.
Speaker 2 (33:20):
How you move through the world.
Speaker 4 (33:22):
You need money, everybody needs it, and we can't get
rid of it, and we need to find a way
to create a healthy relationship with money and have it
feel good. And once people can do that, it's healing.
It is numbers, but so much deeper than numbers. Your
debt is so much deeper than the numbers of the
(33:42):
dollar signs and any of that. There's usually a lot
of stuff that led people there and really peeling the
onion and saying, well, what is it that got you here?
Was it a series of unfortunate events? Did you experience
a really tough year, did you have loss in your life,
job loss whatever that might be, or was it overspending
(34:02):
like what we did, or maybe a combination of both.
And once we can figure out what those things are,
it really helps people understand, Okay, this is why I'm
in this situation, and I'm not a bad person. I'm
not bad with money. Maybe I just didn't have the
right tools at the time. And now I'm here learning
and I have my coach by my side, and I'm
(34:23):
ready to learn how to do this the right way.
And I think one of the biggest things that I
noticed is people feel like I'm an adult. A lot
of our clients are like thirty five, forty five years old.
They feel like they are adults and they should be
making adult decisions, but they don't even know how. Yeah,
they feel stupid because they weren't taught this, and that's
exactly how we felt too, and that's where a lot
(34:45):
of the shame stems from, which is a shame.
Speaker 1 (34:47):
And I'm glad that personal finance education is becoming more accessible,
more mandatory, and in many states, curious to see how
that's going to shake out and how good the education
is going to be and how well equip the teachers
are going to be, but at least we're going to
learn be taught something like before we graduate, because there's
a lot of stuff that we get taught in high
school that at least I haven't used since then. And
I'm not throwing shade at high school. I'm just saying, like,
(35:11):
there are some classes that don't really we don't use
some of the skills that we learned far off into
the future. But personal miindance is one of those things
that we all use every single day, and if we
don't know the basics, then we are right to be
taken advantage of. And You're right, like those ties between
our money and our ability to live the life that
(35:32):
we want, they're tight, They're very intense. Money is often
the prevention of people being able to live that sort
of life that they want, and just having a better
education around money is going to make a big difference
for their ability to live that life that they want.
So I'm curious, Haley. At one point, I think you
said the right way you put it in quotation marks,
(35:55):
like you want to tell people to do it the
right way when you put it in quotation marks. What
are you saying there is? Is is there a right
way to handle money or is it contextual? Is it individualized?
Like how do you think about that?
Speaker 4 (36:06):
I think society thinks there's a right way to manage
your money. Society tells us that we need to do.
Speaker 2 (36:13):
What we did.
Speaker 4 (36:13):
We need to go to college, we need to have
money when you need to buy a house, you need
to do all of these things. But that flow isn't
necessarily reality for a lot of people. And I think
when I say the right way with managing money, people
want it to be that they have a lot of money,
they don't have debt, they're feeling good, and they have
you know, the white picket fence, and they're on their
(36:35):
merry way, just like their grandparents told them to do.
And it just is society from generations. It's a deep,
deep thing that we feel like we have to do
it the way. I don't know, it's a complex thing
to even try to explain because it really also is
very personal. What you think is the right way is
(36:58):
probably different from even your partner's way of thinking is
the right way. And I think it also changes over
time too.
Speaker 1 (37:05):
Yeah, I think you're right. I mean, our money and
discussions have changed significantly over time. Our goals have changed
significantly over time, and the hang ups that we had
with money, some of them still exists, but to a
lesser degree in many ways. But gosh, some of those
things still they still come up. Like literally this past weekend,
had a conversation with my wife where I'm like having
(37:27):
this like emotional reaction to something going out with money,
and it's it's really rooted in childhood stuff. And I
have to remember that in the time because it's Yeah,
for so many people. You never like people would be
amazed to hear that this guy who has had a
personal finance podcast for many, many years has been working
in the industry for like almost two decades, Like, how
is it that you still let emotion get the best
(37:47):
of you in that regard? And it just it does
like it because it is it's been there for so long,
and I think that's what a lot of people are
dealing with. I'm curious to Haley, you have a Trauma
of Money certification. What does that mean and how does
that help you? I guess in some of these conversations.
Speaker 4 (38:06):
I went through the Trauma of Money program, and it
was initially for my knowledge of trauma for helping my
clients and to have a trauma informed lens. But it
was the most eye opening, healing thing I've ever done.
And it's also another hard thing to put into words
because I feel like it's been a year, but I'm
still processing everything from that.
Speaker 2 (38:28):
But it really helps me.
Speaker 4 (38:30):
Kind of slow down and ground myself in moments with
even Justin and I were we're having a financial maybe
just like a stress moment, to really sit down and say,
what is this, where is this coming from? Where do
I feel this in my body? How can I release this?
What is the true cause of this, and where did
that come from? And then practicing that on myself and
(38:52):
moving through my own financial trauma also helps me work
with my clients that way and just understanding that this
is more than money, and for a lot of people
it is deep from.
Speaker 2 (39:03):
The way that they were raised.
Speaker 4 (39:04):
And you can't just erase the first twenty years of
your life and be like, Okay, well, now I'm a
CPA and I am good to go because I went
to school and I have my bachelor's degree in economics
and accounting and I am educated. Well, if you grew
up in poverty and your family didn't have a lot
of money, there's a lot there that you need to
(39:25):
work through. Just having the textbook education doesn't heal that.
So that is kind of what all of that trauma
lens stuff works through.
Speaker 2 (39:34):
Really, where does this come from?
Speaker 1 (39:36):
Do you think these two think that getting better with
money and changing your relationship to money change your relationship
to each other? And how did that? What was the
internal work like for you guys? How different do you feel?
Not just because oh, we paid off debt and we've
got we're investing for the future and we're doing the
right thing. But how did that impact you guys? At
(39:56):
like more like a deeper level you want.
Speaker 2 (39:58):
To go first?
Speaker 5 (39:59):
Sure, I think it helped a lot of different things.
It gave us the tools to have really hard conversations
even outside of finances. We're really comfortable voicing our opinions
with one another in a kind way, but in also
a direct way. We don't dance around issues. I think
that it certainly helped our intimacy. Because we didn't have
this stress and tention around money.
Speaker 1 (40:21):
We were able to you don't have to talk about
Dave Ramsey Apple anymore.
Speaker 3 (40:25):
Right, exactly right? Were you know, more lighthearted?
Speaker 5 (40:29):
I think that it gave us this freedom to be
spontaneous with boundaries. As wild as that sounds, but the
spontaneity I think that many couple's crave, they also desire
a boundary around it. And for us, tidying up our
money and our finances gives us those boundaries. So when
(40:50):
we do things, it feels really good and it doesn't
put us out, and it feels in alignment with our
goals and we're able to do it freely.
Speaker 4 (40:57):
I definitely feel like everything that we have worked through
with having a lot of money, well, first off, how
we were raised. We didn't have any money growing up,
and then we got a lottery sized winnings and just
plopped into our lap and we had a really great
time and blew it all. And then also had a
bunch of debt that we racked up, and then we
paid off a bunch of debt.
Speaker 2 (41:17):
It has taught us.
Speaker 4 (41:18):
That we can do anything together as a unit. If
we go through hard times, there's nothing that we can't do.
And I feel truly unstoppable having done what we did.
The sacrifices and the challenge of paying off all of
that debt, it was truly something. This sounds very strange,
but I would do it all again in a heartbeat
(41:40):
because we learned so much from it, and that is
something that you can't learn reading a book. I can't
teach people that. It's the experience, and that really was
so unifying in the early years of our marriage. So
I'm very thankful for everything that we've been through with that.
Speaker 1 (41:56):
Yeah, you too have lived a lot of life in
seven years of marriage. I've got a few more questions
I want to get to with you, and we're gonna
go back to some nitty gritty stuff on the debt front.
I want to hear your thoughts on debt consolidation. So well,
a few more questions with Haley and Justin. Right after this,
(42:18):
we're back still talking about avocado toast and you know,
how to be better with money as a couple. And man,
Haley and Justin, thank you for joining me. I love
your vibe. I love how you guys have been able
to communicate connect with each other on money, and then
how you've been able to influence the lives of so
many others through the coaching that you've done together. I
(42:39):
do want to ask some more questions about about debt.
I'm curious when it comes to when you're talking to
your clients about debt payoff, debt consolidation is something that
comes up. We get a lot of questions about debt consolidation.
It's like, oh, should I take out the helock money
to pay off the credit cards and or personal loan
instead of a credit card? Like maybe I can lower
my interest rate, and there's all these of like gamification
(43:01):
ways that people want to begin that process. What do
you tell people who ask you that question.
Speaker 4 (43:07):
I love talking about this because it's something very relatable
that a lot of people really resonate with. And I'll
just say that the marketing from the debt consolidation companies,
they pour a lot of money into ads and they
really target people on purpose to get them at their
low point where they say, this is going to be
(43:28):
the saving grace, We're going to help you out. And
the answer. I wish it could be just a yes
or no, but it truly depends. Debt consolidation can be
the most amazing blessing for someone, but it ninety nine
percent of the time is a very slippery slope if
you are not working on anything else, if you're just
trying to gamify the system and consolidate your debt, but
(43:48):
you're not working on what got you into debt or
changing the behaviors, or you're not going to start budgeting
or actually tracking your expenses, then you will be stuck
in a debt cycle. I promised that a year from
after you take the heelock out and you pay off
all of your credit cards off, you will have probably
twice as much credit card debt as you already had
to begin with. And I've seen that scenario time and
(44:09):
time again, and that debt cycle is created intentionally by
these companies that want you to take out more personal
loans to consolidate your debt and to start it over
and over and over. So they're not bad if you're
working on the rest of the stuff, But really you
need to emphasize that hard, hard, hard with accountability.
Speaker 2 (44:29):
And I think that that's one of our strengths.
Speaker 1 (44:31):
Yeah, I mean, it's the same with like a balance
transfer credit card right where Ye it seems so that's
the solution for me. All I got to do is
get over paying this twenty percent interest right to the
credit card companies, and then you do the balance transfer
and then you're like, well, I guess the other's stuff
I need to buy, and you're not really paying down
that credit card effectively. You're putting money you know you're
putting You're buying stuff on the original credit card that
(44:53):
where you did the transfer from, and then you end
up in a much worse position. I agree with you
guys on that. What's your take on credit card it's
in general because credit cards, it seems like they can
be a tool to use effectively, but something like fifty
percent of Americans just can't use them. Well, so does
that lead you guys to tell clients like probably should
avoid them or not.
Speaker 4 (45:14):
I think if you're trying to pay off debt, you
should stop using your credit cards entirely. And that's the
hill I will die on, because you need to tell
yourself by your actual actions that you are in control.
When you're in credit card debt, you feel out of control,
and you need to really feed yourself the confidence that
I am in control of this situation. I'm going to
pay this off and I'm going to do this, and
(45:35):
you practice that by stop using the card. But credit
cards in general, if you're managing your money effectively, they
can be super great strategic tools for free travel and
all of that, but all of those benefits are completely
useless the moment you pay interest. So the game, it's
a whole game people think they're playing, and the banks
are the puppets that are like, haa, we're gonna get everyone.
(45:57):
And once you realize that that's what the bank are doing,
it's a little easier to say, Wait, I'm not going
to pay all the extra interest to City Bank, Chase
or whoever.
Speaker 2 (46:07):
I'm going to back off.
Speaker 4 (46:08):
And then once I stop using them for six months
or a year and I pay off all of my
credit card debt, maybe I'll start using them a little
bit and pay them off in full.
Speaker 5 (46:16):
But it really takes time, Yeah, because I think it's
almost ninety nine percent behavioral Right, there are moments where
debt happens to us and we don't have an emergency
fund and we've got to use the credit card for something.
But once we are working with a client and we
can show them, hey, here's maybe what an emergency fund's
going to look like as we get started, or here's
how we're going to keep this credit card safe. We're
(46:38):
not gonna just shred it and get rid of it,
but we're not gonna use it anymore, we're gonna take
it off your Apple Bay or link to your phone
or whatever. I think it's the only way to move forward.
You know, there's so many conversations I've had with a
client where I say, hey, you made a twelve hundred
dollars payment this month on your credit card. That's tremendous.
I want you to scroll down in your transaction log
and see the eight hundred and seventy dollars interest payment
that you also got charged on that card. So while
(47:00):
while you're saying you paid twelve hundred dollars, I'm so
proud of you, look at what an interest took from that.
That's how bad it was beating you up. You got
to stop using this car. You need to put it
away and it can't continue to climb. And I agree
with Haley. You know, once you're out of that pattern
and you're able to tidy up that credit card debt
if you want to use it and you've got a
good structure for gaining the points or rewards or whatnot,
(47:21):
I think that's great. But I also think people need
to be honest with themselves because many people go through
the debt payoff cycle. Don't fix the habits, but they
end up paying off debt somehow still, and then they
start picking up the credit card again and they're right
back into debt.
Speaker 1 (47:33):
It's the same thing with like drinking alcohol. Right some
people it's like I can stop at one beer, and
other people are like.
Speaker 3 (47:37):
I just can't.
Speaker 1 (47:39):
Or potato chips or whatever. It is like that you
find yourself super thrilled by ingesting, like you can overdo
it really quickly, and some people have that ability to
say no, I'm done, you know, in my moderation, I
can handle it. Moderation. If somebody is listening, whether it's
them or a friend, and they find themselves in like
significant amounts of debt or they just feel like their
(48:02):
wheels are spinning and they don't know how to move forward,
what would you tell them to do? And I guess
how important or how crucial do you think one on
one coaching is, because it seems like that sort of
relationship allows a lot of people to jumpstart and start
making progress that have otherwise, whether it's books or other
ways of gleaning information about personal finance, they've been unable
(48:23):
to really that hasn't worked well.
Speaker 4 (48:24):
There's a psychological thing that happens when you pay money
for something, people care about where their money goes. And
when you say that you want to make the change,
and you invest in that change, whatever that is. And
this could also be like paying a personal trainer to
get fit. You're more likely to show up for yourself
and you're more likely to show up for the other
(48:45):
person as well. And frequently in the beginning, people say, Haley,
I only did my homework because.
Speaker 2 (48:51):
I have this scheduled. I say, but you did it.
You showed up and you did it, and we're going
to move forward.
Speaker 4 (48:56):
And I would say to someone who's stuck in a
bunch of debt or they're looking to find the next
how do I get out of this? The first thing
you need to do is just kind of try to
breathe and forgive yourself for some of the stuff that
you've done because or the situation you're in, because a
lot of the shame is just so debilitating. And that's
a lot of what we do. But you can also
(49:18):
work on that without a coach. Now, coaching is I
think what we do is amazing and we love helping people,
but it's for specific people.
Speaker 5 (49:27):
What do you say I would agree with all that,
I would just say logistically, people need to write down
their numbers. Clearly, people will say like I think I
have about ten thousand dollars a credit card debt, and
then they go and they go, oh my gosh, like
I saw what everything is and it's actually yeah, thirty
five thousand or even you know, yeah, or I had,
you know, down to this exact number and I'm actually
over on that credit card.
Speaker 3 (49:47):
I didn't even.
Speaker 5 (49:47):
Realize that I was past the limit somehow. And it's
because we want to do the Ostrich thing. The osage
thing isn't going to work, whether you're working with a
coach or trying to diy this by yourself. The Ostrich
bury your head in the sand will never get you
where you want to be. You got to come up
for air, and you got to write down the numbers
and get a little bit vulnerable with yourself.
Speaker 1 (50:04):
Beautiful wy to end it, Hailey, justin thank you so
much for joining me. Where where can how do money
listeners go find out more about you guys? And also like, yeah,
you're coaching and see the price of avocado toasts everything
in that underbelly.
Speaker 3 (50:18):
Yeah, you can go to our website.
Speaker 5 (50:19):
Price of avocadotost dot com across all social media's we're
just at price of avocado toasts. If you search that
we should hopefully show up, you can see kind of
who we are in our day to day and what
we do is coaches and how we show up for folks,
and in all of our social media and on our
website are one to one coaching application is linked. If
somebody wants to fill it out, we meet for a
free call just to hear more about their story and
(50:40):
whether or not we're the right fit for them, and
if not, we'll show them maybe the right resource or
who is So yeah.
Speaker 1 (50:45):
Awesome, thanks for joining me. I appreciate it.
Speaker 3 (50:47):
Awesome, thanks to appreciate you.
Speaker 2 (50:48):
Thank you.
Speaker 1 (50:49):
Okay. I'm just a big fan of both Haley and
Justin and with their powers combined, they become like Captain
Planet and the work they're doing in this base with
individuals and then just like you know, reaching people in
a larger way through through their own podcast and social media.
It's it's a beautiful thing to behold and they really
(51:10):
are changing lives. When you think about two people helping
a bunch of people pay off four million dollars worth
of debt. That's incredible, that's laudable. It's worth highlighting. And
I think there's like a million things I could highlight
as big takeaways from this conversation. I love kind of
towards the end when Haley said to invest in the
change you want to see in your own life and
(51:31):
how that can look like paying a financial counselor like
them right to be that accountability partner for you, and
if you've got some money, some skin in the game
towards that goal that you want, if that really is
your goal, Like, hey, we get a gym membership if
we want to get ripped right, Well, if you want
to get your money together, maybe it makes sense to
like buy a book or to pony up for a
(51:54):
counselor relationship. But whatever that is for you, invest in
the change that you're trying to see and then realize.
I think too. I love what they were talking about
how as you make progress with your money, especially if
you're in a relationship, I think, just the relationship to yourself.
Because money impacts so many areas of our lives, your
(52:17):
relationship to yourself can change significantly in the process of
getting good with your finances. So it's not really just
about building your net worth and increasing your wealth and
decreasing your debt. Those are great things, those are worthy goals,
and just realize that there's going to be some really
cool byproducts involved at the same time as you're making
progress with your money, because you're going to learn more
(52:39):
about yourself and what makes you tick, and you're going
to gain knowledge, but you're also going to gain perspective.
And so yeah, Justin and Haley talked about the fact
that they have better combos in every area of life now,
and I think that's true. I think like as my
wife and I made progress with our money, the way
it impacted our relationship. Not to say it was easy,
(53:02):
it wasn't always easy. Some of those conversations are hard.
Sometimes money conversations are still hard because they bring up
those ancillary parts, those other parts of you that make
you a whole human being, and you have to drag
those into the conversation about money too, And so it's
not always easy, but it's always worthwhile because we're growing
together in deeper ways. And so they think the more
(53:24):
you take money off the table as a topic that
you're interested in pursuing yourself to make progress the more
you take it off the table of your relationships, whether
it's a spouse or whether it's friends. The more we
don't talk about money, the more we're doing a disservice
to ourselves, because I do think that it can allow
us to grow and thrive in some beautiful ways. And also,
(53:46):
like we'll just spread the money knowledge right so that
we can understand some best practices with money and how
those relate to our ability to live the life that
we want and to thrive, because really that's what it's about.
None of us are aiming for those or know how
to money listeners that I have met, or aiming for
those Elon Musk, Bill Gates, Warren Buffett levels of wealth.
(54:10):
They really just want to feel confident in their finances.
They want to be doing have more optionality in the future,
they want to be working towards brighter, bigger goals for
their family. That's what I want, That's what I want,
and that's what I want for you. So I hope
this episode was inspiring. Thank you as always for listening.
Show notes will be up on the website at howtomoney
(54:31):
dot com. Until next time, Best Friend Out
Hosts And Creators
Joel Larsgaard
Matthew Altmix
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