Financial Independence Exists on a Spectrum (Bestie Ep) #1005

Are you ‘credit card FI’ or are you ‘sabbatical FI?’ But maybe we’re getting ahead of ourselves… First, does anyone else remember the home run obsession back in 1998? In an attempt to beat the single-season record, home runs became the only metric that anyone watching baseball seemed to care about. But what’s interesting is that most MLB games aren’t won by someone sending a 450 foot bomb to center field. It’s an all-or-nothing approach that most often leads to a strikeout and taking a seat back in the dugout. And when it comes to seeking financial freedom, one of the problems with that go big or go home approach is that it can make financial independence seem unattainable, that FI is just out of reach of the typical American and you might as well give up. And others might see it as a false dichotomy- you’re either working 80 hour weeks in order to achieve FI, or you’re sipping pina coladas on the beaches of Tahiti. But we’re here to explain how financial independence exists on a spectrum, the different levels of FI, and how you can practically begin to put your financial freedom to use.

 

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During this episode we enjoyed a Hayburner IPA by Big Ditch Brewing- thanks to Liz and Tyler for sending this one our way! And please help us to spread the word by letting friends and family know about How to Money! Hit the share button, subscribe if you’re not already a regular listener, and give us a quick review in Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. Help us to change the conversation around personal finance and get more people doing smart things with their money!

 

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
Welcome to Out of Money. I'm Joel and I am Matt,
and today we're declaring that financial independence exists on a spectrum.

Speaker 2 (00:27):
Yeah. I like that you said declaring because it makes
me think of the Declaration of Independence as well, because
what was supposed to make you think of. Of course,
this is the fourth of July week. Happy belated fourth
of July. Fourth of July was yesterday. Hopefully you were
able to take some time off celebrate the fact that
we no longer have to pay taxes without representation. Instead

(00:49):
we pay taxes with representation.

Speaker 1 (00:53):
But yes, help everyone more like some swimwear that had
the United States flag on it, set out some fireworks,
drank a really chrommy beer.

Speaker 2 (01:02):
That's the only day that it's really acceptable. But this
also anytime we get we start getting close to the
fourth of July towards Independence Day, it does make us
think about financial independence. And today we're going to talk
about some of the I think some different levels of
financial independence that we think are going to be helpful.
We're not talking about like Barista fire that kind of thing,
but some more practical levels of five that we think

(01:25):
are going to be incredibly helpful. As you are on
your path towards some sense of financial freedom.

Speaker 1 (01:31):
Yeah, like the stepping stones along the way. And when
you can identify those stepping stones, it makes a big
difference in how you perceive moving along that path. And
not only that, not only in like the psychological run,
but it makes a difference in the actions you can
take along the way too.

Speaker 2 (01:46):
Totally. Yeah. Should we have called it the stepping stones
of financial independence then a little more, a little more tame,
but okay, So last week we had an ask how
to money question that we answered and a listener was
asking about how he can negotiate some medical bills, and
we physifically mentioned Healthcare blue Book. How it's the site
that you can go check out compare the prices of
some different procedures. Well, listener Kayla, she actually talked about

(02:09):
how she was able to use this other website it's
called md save. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (02:13):
She sent us an email, by the way, and anytime,
yeah got crackerjack information on the personal finance front, she
just an email.

Speaker 2 (02:19):
I had a money pop wemail dot com. A. We
just love knowing what's out there, but mostly because so
that we can turn around and share it with you,
all of our listeners out there, but she said she
was able to pay three times less for an MRI
than basically what the average rate of that procedure was
going to cost there where she lives. So it's amazing,
a massive win. It's hard but not impossible to comparison

(02:42):
shop healthcare procedures, and so I love that another website
is out there trying to make this opaque area a
little bit easier. So big props, big thanks to listener
Kayla for mentioning this, and hopefully everybody else can find
mdsave dot com a helpful resource. We'll link to it
in our show notes for this episode.

Speaker 1 (02:57):
But man, it's one of those things where I wish
it were simpler. I wish it was like Google Shopper
kind of thing for healthcare, but they kind of MD
save is kind of like they kind of make it
like that exactly, so over time as more folks know
about it, Like that's what makes Google Shop or Amazon
so ubiquitous, is the fact that so many people use it,
And it's just the fact that not a lot of

(03:18):
people know about some of these different websites.

Speaker 2 (03:20):
So again, mdsave dot com, Healthcare blue Book. Check them out,
especially if you have a non life threatening emergency a
procedure that you have to get done. But Joel, let's
introduce our beer. Call nine one one.

Speaker 1 (03:32):
Are go directly to the hospital if you know something
like threatening is happening. Yeah, you don't want to be cheap, right,
But if it's one of those things where we're like,
I got to do this sometime in the next three
six months, then you have time to shop.

Speaker 2 (03:41):
You got time to be frugal. Our beer this episode
is by Big Ditch Brewing Company and it's called Hey Burner.
It is an American IPA. Looking forward to sharing this one.

Speaker 1 (03:51):
Yeah, listeners, Liz and Tyler actually sent this one our way.

Speaker 2 (03:54):
That's right.

Speaker 1 (03:54):
They're Buffalo Bills fans apparently, so I don't really care
much about the NFL these days, but I hear the
Bills are good, so are they. I'm happy for Liz
and Tyler. Good for them, and maybe I'll root for
them because the Falcains are always bad. But let's move on, Matt,
let's get to the subject at hand. We're talking about
financial independence and how it exists on a spectrum, the
stepping stones really of financial independence, and it makes me

(04:15):
think speaking of sports, talking about football, this topic made
me think about the home run obsession of nineteen ninety
eight that took over the whole country. You were alive then,
we were like fourteen years old or over that. Wow, No,
you were older than that. You were probably sixteen. I
was fourteen ninety eight.

Speaker 2 (04:30):
Yep.

Speaker 1 (04:30):
Yeah, well but Sammy Sosa and Mark McGuire, those are
the two eyeballs on those two guys more than anybody else.
And granted, yes, it was all fueled by steroids and
corked baths and stuff like that.

Speaker 2 (04:40):
But home runs, well, we didn't know it at the time,
and you're like ruining all the fun.

Speaker 1 (04:44):
So we all thought it was great and it was good,
wholesome fun when't really not quite. But yeah, home runs
kind of became the only meaningful metric in the sport
of baseball, which in my mind, actually made it a
whole lot more boring. A lot of people were super
into it. I thought the opposite was true, because doubles,
stolen bases, shoe string catches, that to me is the
fun stuff about baseball. The four hundred and fifty foot bomb, though,

(05:07):
especially when it's done on repeat, it gets boring after
a while. I get that it's you know, it's like okay,
because we'll sit there and watch the Daytona five hundred.
Speaking of Americans, Yeah, it's the same thing happening over
and that's why Formula one is more interesting than Nascar.
I agree, don't shoot the messenger, but the home run
really is an all or nothing approach. And some folks
they take that same approach to financial independence. They come

(05:28):
up with a fine number right in amount they need
to save up in order to bag work completely. But
the truth is, financial independence exist on more of a spectrum.
It is not an all or nothing thing, and we
believe that thinking about it in that way is going
to help you from a mental and from a financial perspective.

Speaker 2 (05:44):
Totally. Yeah. Plus, nothing is more American than talking about baseball.
Forget the Formula one comment, everybody out there's a good
example here with the baseball analogy. And actually, we just
went to our our first Braise game of the year
the other nights. We had a great time. Speaking of
home runs, and Bray's been hit and a lot of
home runs lately. Yeah, they had an insane number of
them last month. Right, But go big or go home, like,

(06:05):
it's got a certain ring to it, right, like a
nice rallying cry, but it's also not really all that practical.
And one of the problems with that go big or
go home approach is that it can make when it
comes to money and we're talking about financial independence here,
is that it can make financial independence seem unattainable, that
it is just out of reach of the typical American.

(06:27):
It's all or nothing, and because of that, you're going
to have to put your nose to the grindstone for
a long stinking time before you can accomplish that goal
or if something like Another problem too is like if
something is unattainable and you just feel or believe that
you can't do it, what do you do? Typically you
give up? Right, It's kind of the other side of
the coin here, but it can be I think, just

(06:49):
as disheartening. But what if you thought about financial independence
as a spectrum instead something that you are gradually achieving
more of. We think that that is a healthy approach
that is also going to accelerate your progress.

Speaker 1 (07:03):
Yes, and I think it deserves a brief mention here
real quick math that money is not the only kind
of wealth. That is this is how to money. We
talked about money a lot.

Speaker 2 (07:09):
But this is like the disclaimer before we launch into
credit card benefits their credit.

Speaker 1 (07:13):
Card rewards exactly. Yeah, and obviously that's what we focus
on the show. But wealth is really I guess if
you're going to give it, it's the most basic definition
would be something like an abundance of resources. And that
doesn't specifically have to mean US dollars, right, I mean,
it can mean a whole lot of things. And even
though we want How to Money listeners to become wealthy
from a money perspective, building up savings and investments, we

(07:35):
also want you to enjoy wealth and abundance in all
those sectors.

Speaker 2 (07:39):
Of your life that matter.

Speaker 1 (07:40):
And so the truth is focusing intently on money as
the only source of wealth that you care about that
will likely prevent you from attaining wealth in other important areas.
So there's this recent Schwab survey Matt about how people
perceive wealth and if they found that the wealth looks
a lot more like not having to stress over money
than having a lot of money, which I think speaks

(08:00):
exactly to what we're talking about here. A Scrooge McDuck
esque amount of money so that you can swim in
it is not really what people are after. Most people
are after not stressing about money, and that is the
cool thing I think about this spectrum is that it
destresses you and how you relate to your finances more
and more over time. And so that's a better way

(08:21):
of thinking about growing your wealth than amassing the biggest
number possible.

Speaker 2 (08:26):
Totally. Yeah. And even outside of the arena of money, though, like,
there are other aspects of life that we think that
are important to focus on. Like recently, I think we've
talked about the different arenas of life, and actually even
more recently, I've come across this framework or this approach
to life. It's called the spire approach. I have you
ever heard of that it stands for, and it's again

(08:49):
it kind of divides your life into different sectors whatever
it talks about, like the spiritual, the physical, the intellectual, relationships, emotional.
We want to find health in all of these areas
in life and what And this was based on research
done somewhat recently. But what was interesting about it is
that there are lots of different folks who have thought
hard and done research into this, and they all kind

(09:10):
of come back to these same things. And so it's
not like this some new fad or something like that.
This is something that rings true I think for all
of us. And what was really interesting though, is that
money was very much absent from that lineup. And so
does that mean we're going to stop talking about money
here on the show. No, of course not, because obviously
being financially secure allows you to achieve health in a

(09:33):
lot of these different areas in life. It's a tool,
but oftentimes it can become the focus. You know, it's
a tool that we think is the end all be all,
as opposed to a means to an end. And so
it's worth pointing out that though overall on the show
here at How to Money we talk about personal finances,
ultimately what we are pushing you to do is to
focus on some of these other areas in life that

(09:54):
ring true to you, because they're going to be more
that are more important to you than the next guy.

Speaker 1 (09:59):
And that's where this step stone approach makes a whole
lot of sense, because instead of viewing it as I
gotta have mass one point seven million dollars to actually
be financially independent, you're focus then is probably too much
on money, money, money, And if you can see it
on the stepping stone. Oh, I just made more perker,
so I got a little more further thrown this distrection off.
I'm achieving more financial independence. It can allow you to

(10:20):
be less focused on money overall, which I think is
a good thing.

Speaker 2 (10:24):
It's not just and it shouldn't be that you're just
working your butt off until you can finally retire, right
potentially when you're far less able to actually enjoy the
fruits of your labor, because there are other aspects of
health that you have neglected. Specifically, I'm referring to physical
health in this case, your nose of the grindstone. Working
sixty hours a week, you're missing out on the relational
and then the relationship. Yeah, exactly, Yeah, there's all of

(10:46):
those areas of life within that spire framework can suffer.
If you are overly focused on your net worth.

Speaker 1 (10:52):
It might have more money, but you're probably less happy,
less successful. Yeah, and you are from an overall perspective.
You're richer financially, but you're poor in all of the
areas that matter much more. And the truth is, when
it comes to viewing money or financial independence specifically on
a spectrum, your options, they grow with each step that
you take with every additional dollar that you are able

(11:12):
to bank. Well, it's also important to mention the goal
of financial independence isn't just to be able to consume
more than you can now. I think some people think that, yeah,
more money means who I'm just delaying consumption and where
I can go on wild right? Yeah, And it's not
about being able to afford more filetmian.

Speaker 2 (11:27):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (11:27):
And instead of just the plain old cheap chicken thighs
or something like that, don't you not chicken thighs. They're great,
It makes the best fried chicken. I know, they're actually
they're actually cheap but tasty. But even as your level
of financial independence grows, it is nice to have more
choice from a consumer standpoint, I'll admit to that. But
the true goal of having more money in the bank
is more about being able to choose the life you want,

(11:49):
choosing the life you want to live, what you do
with your time, and thinking about financial independence on this
spectrum that we're going to kind of.

Speaker 2 (11:55):
Lay out here.

Speaker 1 (11:56):
It makes it easier to adjust your goals as your
life changes.

Speaker 2 (11:59):
Too.

Speaker 1 (11:59):
For instans like having kids, it might mean you want
to work less, and if you have gotten a couple
more steps down the road on that path to financial independence.
You can make that choice, and that is something you
can do in your thirties, as opposed to saying thinking
of financial independence, just as this long distance destination that
you're working towards makes me think Matt of that old
parable of the fishermen, right, and oh, yes, he's enjoyed

(12:24):
fishing all day, sells a few of the fish, cracks
a beer up on with his buddies, and someone comes
along and says, you could start a business out of
this if we These fish that you catch are phenomenal. Yeah,
gotta expand yeah, And then he's like, ultimately, the goal
is to get back to the exact life he's living now, right,
which is fishing for a few hours, selling the fish,
having beers with his friends, enjoying his community and his family.

(12:46):
And so I think that can put it in perspective too.
I think that parable is really indicative of what a
lot of people are after they're working their butt off
and they're wasting actually some of these precious years they're
working too hard for money and hopes that they can
have some sort of leisurely retirement as opposed to incorporating
some of that leisure, some of that joy now exactly. Yeah,
So let's talk about the nuts and bolts here for

(13:06):
a second. Because the way it works, you move up
the financial independent spectrum by doing a few different things simultaneously. Right,
It takes pay down debt, it takes saving your money,
and then beyond that, it takes investing your money. And
if you're plugging away at all three things simultaneously, which
most of us are, well, you're going to be increasing
your net worth, you're going to be increasing your liquidity

(13:28):
over time, and you're eliminating more of these ongoing monthly obligations.
But clearly your money metrics are improving over the months
and over the years of doing the right thing, and
that should mean that you get to experience higher levels
of freedom and autonomy along the way. It shouldn't just
be reserved for quitting work altogether and waiting and only

(13:48):
realizing that the at the end of the road that
there's some sort of prize, some sort of metal that
you're going to be able to attain. Yeah, there is
no metal for a financial I know from what I've seen.
I haven't seen anyone get a metal. If I do,
I'll let you know, but there's no trophies or anything
like that, and so really it is all about your
mindset and your approach. And I think, unfortunately, Matt, most
people when they think about financial independence, they associated with

(14:10):
a go big or go home mindset. They is associated
with that all or nothing mentality, the home run or
nothing right or a strikeout, which is what actually makes
baseball more boring these days. Although it is quicker, the
games were quicker, like the one we went to two
and a half hours. That was nice just because of
that pitchclock. Man, I know, I think the thing is,
it's not that crushing a homer isn't a bad thing, right,
and makes me think of this old true Braves player

(14:32):
Rafael Billyard. I think he played for like sixteen years
and he literally hit two home runs in his entire career.
I'm sure he's glad that he hit a couple homers
and like didn't never hit one right the entire time
he was in the league. Dude, he was like so
small and he choked up on the bat and so
he was like a slap single kind of hitter. But
he was quick and he was good on defense. So
it's not that we're against your ability to make big strides, right, sure,

(14:54):
And I think getting to the point where you can
actually quit work altogether and completely living off your nest egg.
I mean, for that is part of the spectrum that
is the home run. Yes, yeah, but usually you're gonna
get there through a You're going to round the bases
through a single, a stolen base, and then the RBI
hit to get you in, right, So it's gonna.

Speaker 2 (15:12):
And that's what most guys do. Like that's what they
call it, manufacturing runs. Yeah, that's that's like the majority
of baseball is that. And like we were lucky enough
to see a couple of homers the other night as well,
And it's it is a ton of fun. You just
want you just want a little bit of everything. Yeah,
it's it's a it's a ton of fun. But at
the same time, if that is all that you were
going for, it would make for honestly just a boring
sport to watch, Yes, it would. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (15:33):
We think if that's the only thing you're focused on,
the home run or the ultimate number, you're missing out
on a whole lot in between. So that's why we
think it is worth laying out all of these different
stages along the way on your on your way to
ultimate financial independence. We will delineate, we will lay out
that spectrum how that should impact your savings and investing habits,
and we'll get to all that right after this.

Speaker 2 (16:04):
All right, we are back and we're probably done with
all of the baseball now, actually we're probably not. We're
refer to it again.

Speaker 1 (16:12):
Probably people out there listening and they're like, I could care,
Like I.

Speaker 2 (16:15):
Thought magical, we're like soccer guys. Hey, we are still
soccer guys, but we just it was fun to go
to a base I had like, that was literally my
first game that I had been to at the at
truest part. Oh, I didn't know that was your first. Yes,
I've been outside it before, like K and I the battery.
There's like restaurants and stuff that. So we've done date
nights there before, but we've never I've never actually been
to a game there. I almost said match, never a

(16:36):
match there. Yeah, but let's go ahead now discuss some
of these different levels of financial independence, the ones that
we think are important to identify.

Speaker 1 (16:43):
And by the way, these are proprietary terms we've come up. Yeah,
nobody influenced us. We came up with with these This
is the spectrum that had money guys have to have outlined,
that's right.

Speaker 2 (16:51):
And at the very bottom of the spectrum is what
we're gonna call No. Five. This means that you're likely
living paycheck to paycheck. You literally zero financial freedom, and
you are completely dependent on your job, your job, the
whims of your employer. And this is actually a big
chunk of Americans, as we all know too well. This

(17:12):
is the forty plus percent of folks who can't afford
a four hundred dollars unexpected expense.

Speaker 1 (17:19):
We see that number come out every year, it gets updated,
and it's always right in that vicinity.

Speaker 2 (17:23):
And here's the thing, though, like, this is where everyone
starts unless maybe like your trust fund baby, trust fund baby,
if you were born with a silver spin in your mouth.
But given honestly, like, given the cold reality of student
loan debt in our country, a giant swath of young
folks out there are starting out just in a bigger
hole than just no FI. Right, It's not that they're
starting at zero, they're actually starting off with that negative

(17:45):
net worth. Yeah, but when you are no FI, well,
you don't have any options available to you. Because you
got to keep working for that next paycheck. No work
means no money. You don't have the options, and you
literally have no financial independence. And you said this where
people start, and there's nothing wrong with that. There's no
shame in that game. This is the reality for most

(18:06):
people as they're beginning out. No shame.

Speaker 1 (18:07):
I wish I look back to my early years. I'm like,
I was no five for a while, man.

Speaker 2 (18:10):
Like we should maybe we should have come up with
like beyond that, like negative five or something like, because
that's technically folks who are coming out of its probably
well with loans. Yes, if only I think a lot
of folks are probably thinking that if only I could
have graduated and had a net worth of zero, But
in fact I had a negative networth. I have twenty
six thousand dollars or forty six whatever it is, So

(18:31):
we get it.

Speaker 1 (18:31):
Just trying to get back to zero is that in
and of itself a difficult thing, And that is part
of the stepping stone is saying, like, listen, I got
to get beyond I got to get beyond here. And
so the next step, the next place you're gonna want
to venture on your five spectrum journey is you want
to get the credit card five. That's what we're calling it,
you know, because really, how long you end up hanging
out at each of these stages of financial independence is

(18:53):
kind of up to you. It's up to your actions.
It's how up to how quickly you're able to pay
off debt to save more. It's up to how quickly
you're able to increase your income, right. And so do
you fall into a rut of living paycheck to paycheck,
staying there for longer than you otherwise should, or are
you immediately trying to create some margin in order to
advance to the next stage of financial independence, which is

(19:14):
this credit card five? Right?

Speaker 2 (19:15):
Right? That's how you get from no FI to credit
card for yes, you got it, I said, fry five. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (19:21):
Well, it involves habits, right, and it involves making changes,
it little tweaks to each one of these these each
one of these things. And so this is this is
when you still don't have much credit card FI, but
you've amassed enough to give yourself some basic breathing room, right,
and most importantly, you're no longer dependent on your credit
cards when unexpected expenses crop up. And there's a reason

(19:42):
Matt that our first money gear is to have a
basic emergency fund set aside, where you have two thousand,
four hundred and sixty seven dollars in the bank at
your disposal. And you know, we're all for using credit
cards wisely, you and me, that's what we recommend, but
we don't want them to become a crutch something you
have to rely on when a few unexpected expenses pop
up in your life.

Speaker 2 (20:01):
That's right, yeah, And once you've got that basic emergency
fund on hand, it's going to feel like you're finally
able to take a time out where you can get
a sip of water in a quick rest after having
around the basketball corps for most of the first half
more sports references. We're switching it up at you. It's
not ideal, right, like you still want to have maybe
a longer rest at halftime, but at least it's something

(20:24):
that's where the stage of financial independence gets you. It's
a it's a fairly low bar, but considering where so
many Americans are with their finances, it's what a lot
of folks need to be aiming for, right, Like, just
getting to this point it can relieve a lot of stress.
And we're not just talking about folks who are making
minimum wage. We're talking about high wage earners as well.
I think, like the it's a majority of folks who

(20:45):
make more than one hundred thousand dollars are living paycheck
to paycheck. It's like fifty one percent or something like that.
And so we're not just picking on folks who are
maybe either just starting out in their career or folks
who have a job where hey, man, I'm just not
going to make a ton of money here.

Speaker 1 (20:58):
No.

Speaker 2 (20:58):
No, we're talking to folks who make good money, but
even still they are making the same mistakes with.

Speaker 1 (21:02):
Their with their financi Yeah, they're outspending their paycheck even
though that paycheck is relatively large. The next step along
the way is achieving what we call layoff I and
this is the next level to shoot for on the
how to money financial independent spectrum because it's when you
not only have that base amount of twenty four hundred
and sixty seven dollars saved up, it's when you have

(21:23):
a fully funded emergency fund. And so yeah, this is
basically when you have three to six months worth of
expenses on hand in that savings account, you know whether
you should have the leaner three months or the fat
or six months. That really depends on a number of things,
one of which is do you live in a two
income household or not. I think if if that's the case, yeah,

(21:43):
you can have a little bit less stocked away in
savings if you are.

Speaker 2 (21:48):
Do you have tenure at the university where you teach, right,
maybe it'll be okay.

Speaker 1 (21:52):
It's like now I could literally punch the dean in
the face and I would still retain my job. You
might not need to have quite as much on hand.
It depends on your risk tolerance, right, like how comfortable
you are with your your income dropping or if you
are willing or capable honestly of cutting back on your
within your expenses, were you to earn less money, and
that there's so many different things you have to take

(22:13):
into account because that is something that you may have
been more willing to do or more capable of doing
back before you had kids, But now you have kids,
and man, there are certain expenses that are necessary for
me to go work, like childcare that's not that we
got to pay for or yeah, all important things to
keep in money exactly. I think that's a great point,
and we're calling this layoff five because that bare bonesy

(22:34):
fund that's not going to get you very far if
you lose your job. Yeah, right, but beyond that initial
savings threshold that we want you to achieve, having layoff
five money on hand, you know, in your bank account,
that'll smooth out some of those bigger bumps in life,
like getting fired. Right if you do punch someone in
the face of your job or hopefully just laid off,
hopefully there's no violence involved. We're also not advocating for violence, right,
don't punch anybody, don't do that. But yeah, unless you are, Yeah,

(22:57):
Elon Muska or I haven't talked about that, you're on
the show yet. But if then, when that does happen,
we're there for it. I'll be watching the most unentertaining
actual fight, but the build up in human history, right, Well,
I mean this is yeah, hopefully you're not getting fired,
you're just getting laid off. And even then we obviously
don't want that. But you want to be prepared for

(23:18):
the potential of a layoff because they happen.

Speaker 2 (23:20):
Right.

Speaker 1 (23:21):
An unexpected layoff is one of those things that can
set you back in your financial progress meaningfully, and a
few months of not being at a job can make
it can make it feel like it sets you back
years in your finances. By the way, Matt, I know
this from personal experience, not from my own layoff, but
from my dad being laid off when we were kids.
That was a tough thing to come back from and
it really really can. It can derail a career. And

(23:43):
so you just having that layoff five money doesn't make
it easy to get that news, but it does make
it less financially obtrusive. And so if you haven't socked
away a big savings nest egg, it's a precarious feeling
to get laid off. That's what we want people to have,
is like more money on hand to then be able
to endure the bigger roadbumps throws at you.

Speaker 2 (24:00):
Yeah, it doesn't feel good living on the edge like that,
and largely because those bigger there's more jarring events like
a layoff would throw you into an adverse financial state
pretty quickly. But having this much on hand, it also
ensures that you can take a little more time before
you have to commit to a new job. And so
whether that means just maybe getting a little bit of rest,

(24:21):
you know, taking a couple of weeks off or just
allowing you to turn down a job that's not necessarily
ideal because you have some savings to back you up.
You know, you've got that fully funded emergency fund of
three to six months of living expenses set aside having
achieved layoff. I this is a clutch stage as you
are ratcheting, as you're moving along that financial independence spectrum. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (24:44):
I had a friend who lost his job a couple
of years ago, and I just remember being so bummed
that he didn't have like layoff five status because he
had to take the first job that came along and
it paid less than the one he had just lost.
And that's a tough spot to be in. If you
have extra month's worth of expenses, you can be a
little pick here, and I think that can that can

(25:05):
ultimately help you rebound and ensure that your career stays intact.
And the financial independence and where you're at on your journey,
the financial independence makes a big difference in the choices
you can make or that you're forced.

Speaker 2 (25:18):
To make in the moment. Absolutely all right.

Speaker 1 (25:21):
Next on the spectrum is peace out FI. That's what
we're calling it. We've talked about peace out money before
that's some people call it fu money, but we're more
tactful than those people, Matt, And so yeah, I think
this is really when someone has saved beyond six months
of living expenses. So maybe that is layoff I is
up to six months, and then beyond that is like okay,
your peace out fi And instead of just being prepared

(25:42):
for a layoff, now you can even engineer your own
layoff that's what you want to do, and still best
to give two weeks of notice. You don't want to
intentionally burn bridges. And that's why we don't call it
fu money, because peace out money just sounds like you're
doing it in a peaceful, joyous way, as opposed to
throwing a molotop cocktail through the door, taking it to
the main as you leave, right Yeah, and so yeah

(26:03):
you can though, and you should feel the freedom to
step away from a job for things like health health reasons,
or to take care of an ailing parent or a spouse.
Rather than taking a more passive role in your employment
and hoping that you're not next on the chopping block,
you're actively steering the car of your own life towards
what others might see as a financial Cliff. But they
don't know that you've achieved peace out five. They don't

(26:26):
know that you've got the financial wherewithal and the dollars
in the bank account to back you up. Even if
you're like you know, it makes me think of even
being able to negotiate your own layoff, Matt. We talked
about that with Sam Dogan, the financial Samurai at one point.
And if you've got cash in the bank and you
see riding on the wall, things aren't good at your employer. Hey,
you know what you could volunteer is tribute negotiate a

(26:48):
pretty sweet severance package, and that, combined with the amount
of money you've been able to save, you can piece out.

Speaker 2 (26:54):
For a while. Yeah, that gives you even more runway
to make the decisions that you think are going to
be best not only for you and your life, but
for your family and ultimately well yeah I should have
said ultimately your family, but but I was gonna say
your career as well, and kind of what direction you
want to go in. But this, this level of financial independence,
this level of five, also comes with more power to
push back and you know, going back to avoiding the

(27:15):
all or nothing mindset, you also don't have to completely
quit when something is going on at work, when something
happens that you're not a fan of, but you can
if you just can't stomach your boss, or if you
can't handle the insufferable hours anymore.

Speaker 1 (27:28):
It's like Office Space, I'm gonna need you to come
in on It's like if you don't bother coming on Saturday,
don't come in on Sunday. Yeah, And that's a at
that point when you're peace, how high you can be
like Okay, now that's too much, I'm gone.

Speaker 2 (27:39):
You really can at that point. Yeah. But like what
we're talking about here though, is just the ability, like
the confidence that you might have to start having some
conversations because this level of financial freedom can just help
you to negotiate for the things that you really want.
And it's going to be easier to negotiate successfully when
you really can walk away if in case they call
your bluff and they're like, no, I'm sorry, that's not

(28:00):
going to work, and you can say, all right, well
then this isn't gonna work out for memore, you can
kind of really exhibit that Peter and Office bade Space
degree of apathy. You know, that cool con collected. Okay, cool,
let it roll off your back like a duck when
you when you're piece out five, you really can just
be like, okay, that's great, no worries, but you don't

(28:20):
necessarily work for me now. You don't have to smash
up any equipment now, but you have the ability, like
you said to on this one again too, Sorry about that.
That's the whole office space thing. Let's talk about the
next stage of five, which is sabbatical FI. It's sort
of like a peace out FI, but on steroids. So
this means you can take an extended absence from work
and be just fine. It means that if you quit,

(28:43):
you're not immediately looking for a new gig like you
would with with peace Off five. Typically, with peace hop
five you are walked peacefully walking away from that job.
You're saying peace out. But typically it means you're like,
all right, maybe i'll sit low, you know, kind of
chill out for a little bit, but I'm gonna start
looking from a next job. Yeah. Not so. With sabbatical fire,
you're actually able to enjoy a lengthy period of rest

(29:04):
and you might even have enough on hand to completely
change what it is that your your life and your
career looks like so like we're not really talking about
it like a simple extended vacation that your employer might offer,
you know, like they might call taking four weeks off
a sabbatical, and that's not really the definition that we're
going after here, Like what's out the heart of what
we're calling sabbatical FI is the ability almost to reinvent yourself.

(29:29):
This is when you have the freedom to change course
in your career. Like, it's when you can fulfill a
desire to go back to school and to learn something new.
It's it's when you have the confidence to start a
new business. These are all bigger things than just being
able to say, peace out, I'm going to go find
another job. Sabbatical FI is like who am I? It's
not sitting on the curb moment and you're asking God

(29:52):
what it is that you should do next?

Speaker 1 (29:53):
Well, yeah, and yeah, four weeks What a pitiful sabbatical? People,
that's really eight weeks is like the minimum of sabbaticals
should be. In my opinion, I was glad. I don't
know how I came across this website. I think it
was called Sabbatical Guide and popped up when I was
researching sabbatical and evidently according to folks who are there
on his website that interact and stuff, the average length

(30:13):
of sabbat time for sabbatical was eight months, okayow, which
I was really happy to see. Very impressive at.

Speaker 2 (30:19):
Least the folks who are looking trying to find sabbatical guidance,
that's what that's average for them. So I was happy
to And that's if you were speaking to is the
fact that there is a way this isn't just taking
a long leave of absence from your work, but sort
of like what's the next stage of my career, like
what attend I want to do?

Speaker 1 (30:36):
That happens for people because they're burned out, and this
should not This should be more proactive, right, It should
be more like I'm choosing this as opposed to I
can't take it anymore, right, And it.

Speaker 2 (30:44):
Doesn't necessarily have to be exclusive, you know, like, because
you might find yourself in that situation as well, all
different flavors.

Speaker 1 (30:50):
Sure well, And okay, so the sabbatical five makes me
think of our friend Chad Carson in front of the show.
We've had him on before, We're gonna have him on again.
Actually soon, because he's written a new book about real estate,
and he's done multiple year long stints, sabbaticals essentially with
his family. He's still working a little doing his small
business thing, which he can do from anywhere in the

(31:10):
world that he wants. And I think that sort of
choice it sounds impossible for most folks, But if you
have handled your finance as well, if you've kept your
expenses low, if you've been saving it a high clip,
and you've got enough cash or passive income in the
case of Chad who's invested in real estate, you can
really make this a reality. He takes the opportunity to

(31:31):
go to a different country when he does this, and
the first time he did it was South America. This
time around, it was a year in Spain, and so
it creates a cultural experience for his kids and for
him too, like living in a walkable city that he
never you know, he might have got to visit for
a couple of weeks, but he got a whole year there,
maybe got to develop a community. I can't wait to
talk to him about it. I know, I'm so excited
to just really hear about all the details. But this

(31:54):
is the kind of thing where sabbatical FI can really
if you hit this point, he gives you the option
to do something and crazy that most of your friends
would be like, how in the world are you even
able to do that? And so much of it it
becomes possible from one a mindset change to thinking, oh,
I can get there, but also through handling your finances
in such a way that you have enough money to

(32:14):
really make this possible without freaking out right, that's right.
But okay, this brings up the question, Matt, of saving
versus investing, because we've talked a lot about cash in
the bank, and that is certainly part of it. Some
of it has to be liquid, but in order to
grow your wealth for ultimate financial independence, you got to
invest it too. So we're going to talk about the
dichotomy of that and explain our last steps and really

(32:37):
how to think about financial independence. We'll get to all
that right after this.

Speaker 2 (32:49):
All right, let's continue our journey along the spectrum of
financial independence. And you kind of you know, you mentioned
this right before the break, but like all of the
levels that we've talked about up until now, all the
different levels of FI, they basically require having cash in
the bank, Like you need to be able to tap
those reserves basically if something happens, because honestly, a lot

(33:10):
of the things that we discussed, you are reacting to something, right,
like whether it's an emergency that pops up, whether it
is oh Man, conditions at work just got pretty terrible.
Like I think maybe the sabbatical FI is one of
the ones that you can plan for, maybe a little
bit further in advance.

Speaker 1 (33:24):
It makes me thinking about my last job. Some sort
of ruthless private equity firm bought out the radio station
that worked for and it changed the entire dynamic of
working there. And so people were like, if you had
the financial ability, you might have been looking for something
else whereas you might have been stuck in place. And
this is why too, You're right, You're what you're speaking
to is four one K money doesn't help you nearly

(33:46):
as much in that situation as liquid cash.

Speaker 2 (33:49):
So it's I mean, there's a catch twenty two, right,
because you need to have that cash on hand in
order to achieve some of these different levels of FI
that we've talked about. But if you aren't investing for
the long haul, well how are you going to who
actually retire? How are you going to be able to
reach that ultimate level of financial independence. We're all about
those tax advanage retirement accounts, but you can't access those
until you reach the ripal age of fifty nine and

(34:11):
a half. So if you sock everything away into those accounts,
despite your growing network, you are going to be less
likely to feel like that you're moving along the financial
independence spectrum because you are. It's almost a problem that
these different financial products that they have created, right, because
they are created in such a way that there is
a finish line, there is this goal, this award that

(34:33):
you receive, which is the quote unquote retirement that so
many folks are used to the ability to draw down
on those funds exactly. And so there's this structure in
place that encourages us to think about financial independence in
this way. So, honestly, it's no wonder that this is
a something that we're talking about because we think is important.
But the reason we're talking about it is because we
think it's a problem that the that there are so
many folks who think that the only way to consider

(34:56):
themselves financially independent is if they have enough in the
bank to actually retire. Yeah, and that's why it takes
more than just tax advantage retirement accounts to get you
further along this five spectrum. And so I think really
the right way to think about the saving verse investing
conundrum in the financial independence spectrum it is to take
the both and approach and yeah, yeah, is to remove

(35:18):
the dichotomy. It's not like whatever versus whatever. It's like
and yes, it's more like improv yeah exactly, Yeah, the
yes and approach and as opposed to like it being
this this battle. Yeah, sort of like not to your
off course. But it's how we talk about roth versus tradition.
I thought you're going back to baseball, No, no, going
to boxing now it's it's it's how we talk about

(35:39):
roth versus traditional accounts. It's like, well, if you at
a certain point, yes, consider both, because the ability to
diversify your tax liability down the road, that's huge. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (35:49):
And on the boxing note, like a butterfly sting that
could be I think that's maybe the saving and investing. Yeah,
it's you need both, right, that's Somehamed Ali approach. It
like yes, right, but you know, I think liquid savings matters,
but don't shoot for eighteen months worth of savings before
you invest your first time. That would not be the
approach we would advise.

Speaker 2 (36:06):
It would be a touch on near sided. Yeah, exactly.

Speaker 1 (36:08):
We actually want you investing as soon as you hit
credit card five, right, which is early on in that
financial independence spectrum. Once you've got a basic stash of
twenty four hundred and sixty seven dollars, you do want
to start funneling money towards investments. You do want to
make sure you're at minimum getting the match on that
four to roh one k before you start saving more, right,
Because savings alone isn't going to get you to the

(36:30):
ultimate stop to on your destination, right, You've got to
experience compounding returns over a longer period of time if
you want to achieve full financial independence, which is ultimately
where we want you to end up, even though you're
hitting those sweet spots along the way and enjoying greater
levels of financial independence over the years.

Speaker 2 (36:47):
That's right, man. Yeah, So the last stop on the
financial independence spectrum is when you can achieve full and
ultimate financial independence. We didn't really come up with the
acute a short Q see full monty financial independent, Like,
we didn't come up with anything like that. But if
that is you, congrats, because at this point the world
is your oyster. You never have to work again if

(37:09):
you don't want to. Interestingly enough, there lets most folks do,
especially if they are still young. They do want to
do some sort of work, but they just might want
to do less of it, and they might want to
enjoy whatever it is that they do a little bit more.
They might want to have a little more flexibility to
truly say, yeah, no, thank you, I'm going to work
the hours I want to work. Does that work for you?

(37:31):
If not, then I'm gonna have to bounce. Yeah. And
even once you've achieved this level, you might still want
to find ways to grow your net worth because maybe
you've got goals of generational wealth. Maybe you want to
be super philanthropic. These are all other things to keep
in mind as well. It doesn't necessarily mean it doesn't
mean you have to retire and you know, sit lemonade
or sweet tea on the front porch while you watch

(37:52):
all the young UN's out there play that sound nice though, yeah,
sound sorry at least occasionally, right, So I want to
be active and doing stuff, But I agree, Yeah, financial
independence it means maybe at like three o'clock after you've
worked a nice solid five hours. Yeah, you know, like
you can still work. You can still have your sweet
tea in the rocking chair on the porch. Yeah, cracker
barrel style, that's you. That's what you want, Joel. I

(38:14):
just want the giant checkers mat. That's what I want. Well.

Speaker 1 (38:16):
I think the point you're making here is that work
still holds value even if you don't do it and
you don't need it for the money, because there are
other goals you can have saving up more and some
of that might be just the impact that you're having
based on the work that you're doing, or you might
want to yet do volunteer work instead. I mean, there's
all sorts of options when you get to this point

(38:38):
of like full and complete five whatever we're calling it.
We really should have come up with a better name
on this one, but last we got lazy fully five,
that's what we'll call it.

Speaker 2 (38:46):
Fully fine. Yeah, I got the role with that.

Speaker 1 (38:47):
Okay, So let's talk about this as we're kind of
like starting around this episode out and finishing up here.
I think it's important to mention that because financial independence
is on a spectrum, we want you to find ways
to exploit where you are on that road to financial independence.
Right as you continue to gain and accrue more of it,
start to ask questions like what do you want your

(39:08):
days to look like? What do you want your weeks
to look like? Because we would suggest that you really
are able to morph and change your life more than
you think along the way, that this is the real
power behind realizing that financial independence is a spectrum because
you can take advantage of the progress you've made with
each step that you take. The ultimate goal is not
dying with millions in the bank, and in fact, I

(39:29):
would suggest that is a rather pitiful goal to have.
So don't be afraid to lean into your financial independence
level and enjoy the benefits of it, saying if you
continue to think of it as this all or nothing equation,
you probably won't find and you won't be able to
appreciate the progress that you're making.

Speaker 2 (39:46):
Along the way. You know, maybe we should this is
not an honor off switch. It's a dimmer switch. Maybe
we should call financial independence is a dimmer switch. It's
even more milk toast than stepping stones. Right, But there's
a fine line between lifestyle and what essentially what we're
saying here, which is realizing your wealth, right, Because on one,
on one hand, you are just being kind of carried

(40:07):
away by the culture, the currents of culture, right, And
maybe you start you're thinking about buying something like you're
thinking about buying a new suv because that's what all
the neighbors are doing. Or oh, maybe it's because I
care about what it is that the other parents at carpool,
what it is that they think, And so it's worth
thinking through like why am I actually doing this? Like

(40:27):
should I care what it is that they think? Or
maybe I should care about the things that are truly
important to me. It's like, again going back to that
spire framework, how can I spend some of my wealth?
How can I exercise some of my financial independence in
a way that's going to lead to more health in
those other areas in life? A very simple example could
be getting your yard cut by like a lawn service

(40:50):
or something, right, Like you could do that maybe because
well that's what all the other guys are doing, and
this guy's really good, so maybe I'll just do that.
In my mind, that's like an unhealthy approach that to
me feels more like lifestyle creep versus maybe you're doing
it yourself and you think, man, like my saturdays are
completely taken up by yard work, and I am not
able to spend as much time as I wish I
could with my kids, and my kids are very important

(41:12):
to me. That's that relationship part of that spire framework, Right,
So that to me feels more like a healthy reason
to spend some of your money in a way that's
going to move the needle for you or.

Speaker 1 (41:21):
I think the reason why, the why behind that choice
makes a big difference.

Speaker 2 (41:23):
It's all about the intention. Yeah, it's all about the intention. So,
for instance, like it makes me think about like an
unhealthy work environment, Well, maybe it's worth considering pushing back
on something because you're realizing that, hey, this is taking
a toll on my body, Like I am not getting
enough sleep, I am working way too much. Is it
worth you stepping back a little bit, potentially giving up
future raises or a promotion, some of these different things

(41:46):
that would lead to more money, But that's not what
you've identified that you're after anymore. You have the money,
how is it that you're able to exercise or realize
your wealth? Yeah?

Speaker 1 (41:55):
All right, so you mentioned the carpool example, it made
me think that, you know, what's going to impress them
more inviting them over and providing all the craft beer
for them, and they're gonna be like, Oh, this person's cool.
Who cares if they drive a Jelapi, you know. I
just I think the things that we think impress other
people don't impress them as much as we think. And
so yeah, maybe you're like, oh, they noticed that they're
checking me out in my sweet can you tell your ride?
Which those are good looking SUVs? But I drive a

(42:19):
incredibly old and incredibly cheap vehicle and I don't. And
maybe I'm completely wrong and I'm just not reading the
room right. I don't think people think less of me
for doing so. And in fact, the ways in which
you can foster friendship are less about signaling who you are.
Status symbols by the things that you buy and the
things that you own, and it's more about the way

(42:40):
in which you relate to and care for other people.
But Matt, I think part of the spectrum thing. One
of the other things we want to encourage people to
do is to figure out where they are along this
spectrum of financial independence that we've kind of outlined here today,
start taking the next steps towards the next level. Right,
so you might say, okay, cool, I am layoff by
and I want to get to peace out. That's my

(43:00):
next goal, right Yeah, And so just kind of like
go through these again. We'll list them all out in
the show notes for the episode.

Speaker 2 (43:07):
And figure out where you are.

Speaker 1 (43:09):
Because once you know where you are, then it's easier
to figure out the path to where you want to
get to, where you can make uh to where you
can go next. And so I think when when financial
independence feels like a series of smaller steps versus like,
I don't know, Matt, you do CrossFit like a big
box jump, which you are actually really good at.

Speaker 2 (43:25):
That's your thing. I do like box. I can jump
up onto this table right now. Blow your mind.

Speaker 1 (43:30):
I'm sure you could. But that's the kind of thing
where Yes, got to talk about crossfits today.

Speaker 2 (43:35):
I know that, Yeah, you can check off your box.
Always an achievement, It's always something I'm tell me. Do
you feel like I bring it up to often? Thank you? Yeah? Good?

Speaker 1 (43:43):
Some people do, though, That's like the first role CrossFit
is tell all your neighbors.

Speaker 2 (43:46):
I try to intentionally not talk about it, I know
because of the stereotype.

Speaker 1 (43:49):
Yeah, okay, okay, but back to that small steps versus
box chump. I think people can can see that viscerally
that that the step up the stairs makes you.

Speaker 2 (43:57):
Picking up some steps is going to be a lot
easier than like throwing your entire body up onto a
thirty inch Yeah.

Speaker 1 (44:02):
It's more practical, more attainable, And so you aren't not
to demoralize you. You're not going to achieve financial independence overnight,
and you don't need to. You can achieve more and
more of it by doing the right things with your money,
by saving, by investing more of it, while paying off
debts steadily along the way each and every month like clockwork.
But if you can pinpoint your exact location, that can

(44:24):
help you get excited about the next goal. And I
think you can actually incentivize progress versus demoralizing you that
you're not going to be able to do it in one,
three or five years. Like it's like, no, I'm just
going to continue to experience greater levels of this financial
freedom and I'm going to enjoy it as I make
that progress.

Speaker 2 (44:42):
Yeah, it's all about breaking it down and just doing
the next right thing, which I'm pretty sure there's a
Frozen two song about that. But it makes me think,
like you recently talked about the couch to five k
app and what makes that so successful is that it's
they make it attainable. There are these doable steps, and
you know what, there's actually like couch to ten k,
there's couch to marathon programs as well, because that's like

(45:04):
you can achieve that. And that's what we're talking about
here with financial independence. We're not stopping at five k
like we're going all the way to like ultra marathon.
That's the level that we're going to. And this also
makes me think about when Kate and I went hiking
last year at Old Rag Mountain. It was a beauty,
you know, it was snowy, says, We're walking through the woods.
It's great, and then we get to a section of

(45:25):
the trail where we get up onto this ridge and
you look up and you can kind of see the
rockier section, and Kate kind of freaked out a little
bit because she was looking at this entire difficult section
that we were going to scale, that we're going to
like climb, slash hike over the next hour or two,
all at once. That can be incredibly intimidating. And that's
what it's like when you say, oh, yeah, you need

(45:47):
two point eight million dollars in order to retire, which
is whatever the recent number is that different news outlets
we'll throw out there. That's demoralizing, as opposed to saying, hey, babe,
I know that that looks intimidating and kind of scary,
but let's we're going to take get thirty feet at
a time. We're gonna look at the boulder or whatever
portion of the trail out's in front of us, and
we're gonna conquer that. And then once you do that,

(46:07):
you look uphead, you look up ahead, and you realize, oh, well,
I can do the next thirty feet. I can do
the next fifty feet. That's what it's like when it
comes to achieving that final or what do we call it,
fully financial fi fully five full five. Yeah, that is
the overall view when you're looking back at the big
thing and you're thinking, wait, we're gonna get up to there, like,
we're gonna achieve that. It's important to have that goal

(46:30):
in mind, But does that help you in the day
to day with the small movements. No, that's why we
wanted to break this down into some of these manageable stages,
these more attainable stages of five that we think can
help you to get there more successfully.

Speaker 1 (46:42):
I think the other important thing about the stage viewpoint,
like thinking of it this way, is that who really
wants to delay all the best experiences that money can
buy until they hit full retirement age?

Speaker 2 (46:52):
Yeah?

Speaker 1 (46:52):
Right, you often can't enjoy them quite as fully at
that point in time. And so, going back to the
Fisherman example, that chill existence in the community of fans
and friends, right, Owning more of your time in the
here and now, Well, that'll make you happier than copious
possessions in a much bigger house. And I think it'll
be he got to enjoy it along the way, as
opposed to shooting for it as a goal of just

(47:16):
what he can do during those retirement years, during the
golden after forty years of hard labor, where.

Speaker 2 (47:21):
You neglect all of those other aspects of life. Yeah,
that's when I'll want to do all those things. But
will my health be there, will my friends be there?
Will I be in a state of mind to actually
be able to enjoy it? I would We're arguing that no,
you will not right if you don't practice along the way.

Speaker 1 (47:36):
Yeah, and so freedom, we think is the best thing
that money can buy because it means you get to
call the shots more and more about how you spend
your time. And we think that you're more rich when
you can go on a hike or a bike ride,
or have a long lunch with your spouse on a weekday,
a random weekday, just at the.

Speaker 2 (47:49):
Drop of a hat. That's how to money rich, right.

Speaker 1 (47:51):
Yeah, then if you can afford a yacht, but then
you have to work eighty plus hours a week in
order to keep it like that is not financial in
the minutes, that is not a goal worth shooting for
or for most people, right, that is not the kind
of lifestyle they want to lead. And so yeah, just
these stages of financial independence will let you enjoy allow you,
i think, to enjoy your life more and more along

(48:12):
the way along the journey, as opposed to feeling like
you can't come up for air until you hit that
gargantuan retirement a number that's like decade or two off
in the.

Speaker 2 (48:21):
Future or even more. Yeah, if you are if you've
got your first job and you're realizing oh man, not
only do I have to pay off again all of
this debt that I've got, but then beyond that, I've
got to suck aside, set aside this much money that is,
or it can be overwhelming and demoralizing. But uh, all right,
let's uh shift gears. Let's get back to the beer
Joel that you and I enjoyed again. This one was

(48:42):
from Liz and Tyler. Thank y'all so much for sending
this one our away. But this is a hey burner
an American, I PA, what were your thoughts, buddy?

Speaker 1 (48:50):
This one was more in the citrus direction.

Speaker 2 (48:53):
Oh yeah, yeah, and this would remind me a lot
of trap. Oh you just like really juicy and wet
and citrusy.

Speaker 1 (49:00):
Yeah, which is like, honestly the best ipa coming out
of the state of Georgia. That's like mass produced, right,
that you can always get in a six or twelve pack,
that is like the go to. It's a good one
for so many people still, and I agree. I think
it takes a lot like that one. And if I
lived in New York, this might be a go to
in my fridge.

Speaker 2 (49:16):
Yeah. It feels like the kind of beer that you
always have on hand. That way you can be able
to offer something to your guests, because that's the kind
of lifestyle, that's the kind of wealth I want to
be able to live, right versus having like, was it
a tell you ride? That's your your vehicle of choice?
Now it's not that ex what happened to the You
still want a Rivian right someday when they're used in
some way cheaper, some far off day. Yeah, but uh yeah,

(49:38):
that's gonna be it for this episode. You can find
our show notes up on the website at howtomoney dot com.
And that's also where you can find our credit card tool,
which is the easiest way to find a credit card
that's offering the benefits that you're looking for, and you
can find that they're at the top bar on our website.
But dude, that's going to be it for this one.
Until next time, Best Friends Out, best Friends the