December 3, 2025 • 53 mins
Let’s talk about money and “the youths” today! While a lot of personal finance advice is evergreen and helpful to folks of all ages, it’s also important to reach people where they are and in the way they like to consume information. As middle-aged dads, we hope to stay relevant, but we don’t have the same street cred as our guest today. We’re joined by Lillian Zhang who, as a first generation immigrant, carved her own path by figuring out the job search, learning how money works, and building wealth from scratch. She earned a degree from the Haas School of Business at UC Berkeley and now works in Silicon Valley by day while writing and publishing her book: The New Money Rules. Today we discuss:
- Gen Z feeling pressure to catch up with peers financially
- Social media influencing Gen Z's perception of wealth
- Riskier investments are appealing to younger generations
- Traditional 'get rich slowly' strategies are less popular among Gen Z
- Financial literacy is crucial for informed investing
- Having money, practicing personal finance early on to cement concepts like tradeoffs
- … and much more!
Want more How To Money in your life? Here are some additional ways to get ahead with your personal finances:
- Lillian’s new book: The New Money Rules, but you can also keep up with her on Insta, TikTok, LinkedIn, and YouTube.
- Knowing your ‘money gear’ is a crucial part of your personal finance journey. Start here.
- Sign up for the weekly HTM newsletter. It’s fun, free, & practical.
- Find a thriving community of fellow money nerds by joining the HTM Facebook group!
- Massively reduce your cell phone bill each month by switching to a discount provider like Mint Mobile.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Welcome to How to Money. I'm Joel, and today I'm
talking gen Z versus the old money Rules with Lillian Zang. Okay,
(00:25):
let's talk about money and the youths today. While a
lot of personal finance advice is evergreen and helpful to
folks of all ages, it's also important to reach people
where they are and in the way they like to
consume information. As a middle aged dad, I hope to
stay relevant for a long time to come, but I
don't think I'll have the same street cred as my
guest today, so I wanted to have Lillian Zang on
(00:48):
to talk about the particular hurdles gen Z faces on
the financial front and the new money rules Lillian thinks
they should follow. Lillian, I promise not to tell you
to get off my line. Thank you for joining me
today on the podcast.
Speaker 2 (01:02):
Thank you, Joel. I'm super excited to be here today
and speak to you.
Speaker 1 (01:06):
I'm so glad to have you. First question I ask
everybody who comes on, is what do you like to
splurge on? Craft Beer is my big splurge, But hey,
it's okay because I'm saving and I'm investing for my future.
I'm not blowing at all on beer. What's your splurge.
Speaker 2 (01:20):
My splurge personally is definitely on convenience, so things that
make my life easier or help me save time. And
so one thing is I live near San Francisco, and
if you know anything, abouts up the hills there are insane,
so I really try to avoid driving there, So I
really like to splurge on ubers while I'm in the city.
In terms of other splurges, I like to splurge on
(01:42):
food meal prep kits to help me not think about
cooking as much, and also economy plus or premium flights
for me and my family so we can travel more comfortably.
Speaker 1 (01:52):
Okay, so meal prep kits is that we tried. I
think we got like an intro offer to one, and
we tried it, and the kids kind of rebelled against it.
And it's probably for the best because it is ultimately
it's cheaper right to go get source your own food
to the grocery store and coc your own meals. But
is it a way to like sneakily avoid going out
(02:13):
to eat as much which would save you money.
Speaker 2 (02:16):
I think that's an interesting question because if you look
at the meal prep kits, the cost per meal is
actually not that less than a restaurant meal, Okay. But
I also like it because it gives me ideas for
different recipes that I can perhaps replicate after I try
the meal kit. If I like something from the meal kit,
(02:36):
I can just source those own ingredients afterwards.
Speaker 1 (02:39):
Okay. So that's kind of smart. You're like learning the
recipe playbook through the meal kits, and then you're like, great,
now I know how to make some extra stuff. It's
like a tutorial of sorts in the kitchen. I think
of it that way.
Speaker 2 (02:50):
Oh. Yes, definitely gives me some more ideas for what
to diversify my palate.
Speaker 1 (02:54):
Okay, I like that. I like that all right. Your parents,
by the way, they emigrated to the US from China
in the nineteen eighties. Can you talk to me about
how that impacted your childhood and then ultimately your views
on personal finance too.
Speaker 2 (03:10):
Yeah. So my parents immigrated here in the eighties from
China during closely after the Cultural Revolution in China, which
was a very difficult time for a lot of the
citizens there at the time, and so they felt a
lot of the post educational effects economic effects, and that's
what drove a lot of people to the United States
(03:32):
at the time, including my parents, and so when they
came here, they had to start from zero in terms
of their education in this back home didn't count towards
education received in the US, so they had got to
college here. They were hustling really hard to get their
degrees here, which is so admirable. And when they had me,
(03:53):
I was born in two thousand. We grew up in
the Midwest and eventually moved to California for more job
opportunities when I was in first grade, and I remember
that it was really difficult for my dad sometimes when
it came to certain job opportunities because he wasn't a
(04:15):
native English speakers, So I think it was just a
bit more friction there in terms of how that shape
my upbringing with money. I remember my parents didn't really
talk to me about money in terms of educational way,
but I heard it through their own conversations and arguments
about money in terms of like a scarcity mindset, the
(04:37):
fear of it that it could run like run out
one day, or that the fear we did have enough
accumulated job opportunities, things like that. So even though he
didn't really speak about money, in the household directly, I
had a lot of subconscious thoughts about it that have
stayed with me into my early adulthood. And we could
go into more of that later.
Speaker 1 (04:58):
Yeah, So it's interesting that you say arguments, because in
my house there were arguments about money. Growing up and
being in the room across from my parents' room, I
heard those many nights. My parents wonderful people. They are.
I admire them more than anyone else I know, But
that's still influenced in a meaningful way the way I
(05:21):
think about money and not wanting to have money issues
to argue about with my future spouse. Do you think
that that seeped into you as well, hearing kind of
money fights and money problems and you're like, I don't
want that to be me.
Speaker 2 (05:36):
Oh, definitely. I remember hearing a lot of arguments when
I was younger, and even just being more hyper aware
that money was this like important construct in high school
and in college, and I just remember just thinking like, oh,
I never want to feel like I'm struggling or have
those types of anxious thoughts into my adulthood. And so,
(05:58):
going back to your point, I think that drove a
lot of my future career decisions and mindset in college,
which we can definitely dive deeper into, but definitely influence
sort of the way that I approached like work and
money growing up.
Speaker 1 (06:13):
Yeah, what particular experiences shaped your personal finance philosophy the most? Then,
so that maybe sparked a desire to increase your knowledge.
But then where did you turn right as you're trying
to figure out because personal finance most of the time
has not been especially when you were in high school,
it will be, I think for future generations more widely taught.
(06:37):
But where'd you get the information that you needed to
be able to succeed with money?
Speaker 2 (06:42):
Yeah? So, actually this is an interesting question because I
actually became very hyper aware of money from the conversations
from my parents but also in my own childhood endeavors.
So for context, I actually ran a small business for
a couple of years from like middle school to high school.
Speaker 1 (07:03):
Was it was this your Etsy business.
Speaker 2 (07:04):
This was my Etsy business that I talked about in
the introduction of the book, like the very first page,
this is my Etsy business. And so from a very
young age, I actually had allowance money and spending money.
So my parents never actually really provided me an allowance
as a kid. I just kind of made my own
allowance as a kid, and so I became very hyper
aware that it was very difficult to earn a dollar.
(07:28):
I knew the value of a dollar when I was
a kid. I was like, oh, like, this is tough,
Like it's not easy to make money. At least when
I was younger, I thought that, and growing up I
didn't really learn about like investing or stocks. For my parents.
The only thing they really taught me was to not
spend your money on unnecessary things and making sure you
(07:52):
save money. So those were the main things I learned
from my parents. I actually didn't really understand what a
stock was until I got to university, which I think
made me feel a little behind compared to some of
my peers. But I actually learned a lot of my
personal finance knowledge in college through YouTube videos. And this
(08:14):
is especially when YouTubers like Graham Stephen and like Andre Jick.
They were like extremely popular. I think they're still very popular,
but it was like the super high heydays. I also
learned through a personal finance course at Berkeley. Actually, the
professors there I've been teaching the course for maybe close
to two decades at this point, So it was a
(08:36):
pretty foundational course I took in college, but I know
not many schools have that sort of educational opportunity. But
besides from that, like books as well, like books and
online media i'd say are my main two sources at
the time.
Speaker 1 (08:53):
I love the story about your Etsy store, and I
think there's so much value for young people, Like when
we talk about high school jobs. The value is partially, yes,
in the money that you're earning, but it's in that
attachment of realizing that work is what leads to money,
(09:14):
which most of the time that's the case. Obviously, the
further along you get in your investing career, you have
the ability for your money to work harder for you
than you have to work for it, which is really
cool too. But there's this power I think when young kids,
young people earn money and then they have to make
saving for spending choices. I see that in my own
kids as well, as they're getting into that age where
(09:38):
they have choices to make with the money in their
account and they're like, how much money do I have
my account? Let me take a look. Okay, so I'm
going to plan and I go out with my friends,
I can get some boba tee or whatever, but then
I'm not gonna be able to get that other thing
I really want. What was that like for you, having
money as an early teenager, as a young teenager, and
then having to make those choices for yourself what you
wanted to do with it.
Speaker 2 (10:00):
Yeah, like you said, it really wasn't about the money.
Like as a kid, it is very exciting that you
have like free will to spend it how you like,
but it's mostly to see and practice a lot of
those habits when you were young, so by the time
you get to your adulthood, you have a sense of
what's going on instead of having to start from scratch.
(10:21):
And that was the case for me. I'd say, when
I was doing this whole Etsy business thing, I wasn't
really thinking about the future that much, to be honest,
Like I had some pocket cash that was good in
my childhood years, and I would spend it on like
stationary or search and shoes, like art supplies I wanted
(10:43):
that were more high end things like that. And by
the time I got to university, I had just like
a deeper understanding and appreciation of what it takes to
manage your finances properly and having more clarity as I
went through internships and starting my full time career after university,
(11:04):
and so that's been my journey so far with that.
Speaker 1 (11:07):
Do you think personal finance is different for gen Z
than it is for previous generations. There's so much talk
about generational differences, and I'm just curious to know your take. Personally,
I don't know how difference it is personal finance for
gen Z than it is for millennials or Gen xers.
Speaker 2 (11:27):
I think the foundational principles and the tactical strategies are
actually quite very similar. I'd say some of the main
differences are, of course technology. So with so much information
that's floating around, I see people and peers typically fall
into two buckets. The first bucket is that there's so
(11:48):
much information available that it's easier than ever to get
started early, to open accounts when you are at a
younger age and having to go to a bank physically.
That's the group of people and that's what I personally
identified with, that it was easier to get into it.
And the other subgroup of people that I find for
(12:09):
my generation is that because there is so much information
out there, people feel very overwhelmed and don't know where
to start, and they just like don't start altogether because
it's just too much. And personally for me, I realized
this problem really early on, and that's why I strive
(12:29):
to provide clarity for my audience who is watching, and
especially the book that I wrote to help condense a
lot of that knowledge, so people know there is one
place to look instead of being more overwhelmed. So that's
how I think it kind of fits in here.
Speaker 1 (12:46):
When we're talking about the generational divides, Like every young
generation gets labeled as bad with money. I remember as
a millennial coming out of college and it was like
millennials are idiots and they're never gonna get live up
to their parents' example and they're never going to be
okay with money. They just don't know what they're doing.
And it's interesting, like I feel like I started to
(13:08):
see those headlines about gen z too, but I'm seeing
a lot different sort of the take and it seems
like from what I can tell that gen Zers are
quite intent to learn about money. They're then some of
the statistics spare this out too, right, They're investing at
an earlier age and talking about money seems less taboo.
Why do you think gen Z seems to be a
(13:29):
little more open about money, or maybe at least just
the headline writers and the people who are writing those
news stories aren't antagonistic towards gen Z.
Speaker 2 (13:39):
I think gen Z are more open to different perspectives
and sharing what's going on with their personal lives as
well as their financial lives. And it's mostly because of
the rise of social media, Like on TikTok it's so
casual to see someone just talking about how much that
they have and how they're planning to pay that off,
and people really like to see the journey of going
(14:00):
from one place to a different and more developed version themselves.
I think that is really interesting, And you brought a
good point that there are news articles coming out with
how millennials were painted turned in picture, and I think
gen Z they feel a sort of different pressure in
terms of, like you said, gen Z is investing more.
(14:22):
There's a trend that more people are learning about it,
which is really good. But the main issue that I
personally see is because of how Covid had played out
the job market with AI generally, how wages are not
really keeping up and job growth in general, even though
a lot of gen Zers are intent to learning these things,
(14:43):
a lot of the economic factors and just how the
way the world works now makes it harder for people
like me to get ahead versus gen X or earlier
generations where you can get by on one income and
still live really comfortably. I think it's just harder. The
means a more difficult now.
Speaker 1 (15:01):
Yeah, No, I think you're right. I think it is
just like we get well. I want to get into
this later, buying a house. It is a different paradigm
than it was in twenty ten, and it's different than
it was in the nineteen seventies, and so it's that
is a hurdle for sure. The gen Z faces that
other generations did not face in the same degree. The
(15:22):
same thing is true the cost of college. So I
want to get into those specific topics in just a
little bit. Let's talk about investing though there's I love
that gen Z is more interested in investing, and I
think some of the you know, the apps to make
it easier to invest at your fingertips. The robin hoods
of this world are have certainly incited some of that excitement,
(15:43):
but there's also a downside to more investing interest, right,
and that is pursuing riskier strategies. And I think we've
also seen gen Z do that, p taking some really
risky investing endeavors. So what are you how do you
think about teaching the next generation about investing, and how
do you, yeah, what's your take on maybe some of
(16:05):
the investing the ways that they're they're going about investing.
Speaker 2 (16:09):
Personally? For me, I am a lot more risk averse,
i'd say than the average gen Zer. Most of my
portfolio is in broad market ETFs, and I have some
tech stocks that are like singular stocks from like the
company I work at, as well as some other ones.
But I personally don't really partake much in like you know,
(16:31):
like options day trading, not even that much crypto, to
be honest, And I'd say that is something for gen
Zers to recognize. I think a lot of my peers
are seeking short term gains like get rich quick or
get rich tomorrow, and I see that trend a lot,
(16:51):
but I think we tend to forget to zoom out
for the bigger picture to understand like why you're investing
in the first place. And for a lot of people,
especially if you're more forward looking in terms of your future.
It's less about short term gains for tomorrow, but more
about how you can build sustainable wealth over time and
(17:11):
letting that give you more options and freedom later on,
because when you really come down to it, money is
just a way to enjoy your life and to provide
for the life that you want to live. And so
that's my personal philosophy and just encouraging more people to
think long term rather than quick quick wins.
Speaker 1 (17:30):
Do you think that's maybe where the disconnect is sometimes
for gen z gets. It could be the lack of
personal finance education, but can also be the lack of
clarity I guess for why they're investing. And it feels
like maybe the sort of yolo mentality rules the day,
where hey, I see other people getting rich. Somebody else
(17:51):
invested in Nvidia last year or Bitcoin five years ago.
I've got to find another way to make bank quickly,
or I'm behind my peers. Is Is it that sort
of Is that part of maybe the reason for some
of the risk here investing habits of the gen z
is espousing and they're may be not as on board
the train of the get rich slowly bandwagon that maybe
(18:13):
you and I would be on.
Speaker 2 (18:14):
Oh yes, of course, the media definitely influences the way
we think about our investing decisions. Like I remember several
years ago with like like dogecoin and AMC where some
of the top headlines, remember the pump and dumps. I
think it's la fomo, like if you get in at
this time, you will get this result, which tends to
(18:35):
be what is getting played out on the media and
on you know, social media. Everyone's sharing their own perspectives
and there are a lot of people sharing how maybe
they made X amount of money through x investment, and
you should get in right now so you can also benefit.
But a lot of times those are typically things that
when people promote them, the only person that really benefits
(18:55):
are the people who are promoting them because they got
in early. Right by the time you see it, it's
probably already over. So I think it's just la le
fomo and things like that, and just not having clarity,
like you said, not knowing your reason or why. It
could also be due to like age naturally, like if
you're in your early twenties, you're probably not thinking about
(19:15):
what your life looks like at age. I don't know,
like fifty or beyond, and so it's just like lack
of goal setting and clarity, which is what I'm trying
to help promote to more of my peers.
Speaker 1 (19:26):
Yeah, it's almost like we understand, we know in some
part of remote part of our bodies or brain that
we will someday be old, but it's really hard to envision,
and so it's hard to empathize with our future self
and save and invest with that long term reality in mind.
I've got more, a lot more I want to get
to with you, Lilian, including like, hey, what what are
(19:48):
the old money rules? Why do we need to ditch them?
And what are the new money rules we need to
put in their place. We'll get to more with Lilian
right after this. We're back from the break, still talking
with Lilian Zang, talking about gen Z's perception of finances
(20:10):
and the reality of the money issues they have to
face these days that are different right than prior generations.
Some things are evergreen, some things remain the same, Some
things are very macro economic based, and I want to
get into some of that stuff with you, Lilian. We
briefly touched on like some of the economic pessimism I
(20:30):
think that exists among young adults. Do you see that
as like realistic, Hey, there's this things aren't as good
as they used to be. Think I don't have it
like my grandparents had it? Or do you think that
sort of mindset is limiting maybe their ability to build
their future.
Speaker 2 (20:46):
Yeah, I've seen several sides of this, so, like you said,
because previous generations have had it a lot more, I guess,
to put it simply than gen Z facing right now.
I think a lot of people fall into i'd say
a quote Yolo mindset where it's like, oh, like this
(21:06):
seems impossible, or I'll never be able to get to
where I envision my life to be. So I'm just
not going to think about the future. I'm just going
to save. I mean, I'm just going to spend and
enjoy my life today. That's what I tend to see
a lot. And then there's another group of people who
I think this is where I more fall into myself,
(21:27):
where it's like, oh, I know I have to you know,
work harder, but also planning if you start planning early
and educating yourself early and how financial literacy works and
how you can shape your future into something that is
more attainable for yourself. Then you can put together a
plan and figure out what are the steps I need
(21:49):
to take or prioritize to set myself up for a
future where a lot of these things could be possible
in the next few years, five or ten years down
the line.
Speaker 1 (22:00):
So do you think some of the yolo people you
run into it's not that they're not investing or planning
because they don't have the resources. I know that is
obviously true for many Americans, But would you say it's
more true that or yeah? From your perspective, are you
encountering people who could make the same decisions that you
(22:21):
make or that you encourage other people to make, but
they're just they have a different mentality and they don't
necessarily they're not thinking along those long term lines.
Speaker 2 (22:30):
Oh yeah, I know plenty of high earners in my
peer group that have the means to plan for the future,
but they're just not prioritizing it because they want to
live in the now, which is also valid. You want
to enjoy yourself now and plan for the future, But
I think a lot of people miss the future part.
Speaker 1 (22:51):
Yeah. I think you're right, and I think it makes sense,
Like it's easier to be like the future will take
care of itself. I can think about that later, especially
especially when you're in your twenty so many people really do.
It's at forty when people start to think about investing
and they're like, I guess I should start saving for retirement.
But by then, as you know, they've missed out on
(23:13):
a decade and a half or more of compounding returns.
And so by the time Lily and you hit age forty,
you're going to be well on your way. You might
not even have to invest another dollar for the rest
of your life. That goes to some of the coast
fire you talk about right, whereas they have to get
started and they have to work double time in order
(23:34):
to make that happen.
Speaker 2 (23:35):
Yeah, I think it's really interesting. I've seen several stories
around this where you either work really hard when you're young,
or you work even harder when you're older.
Speaker 1 (23:44):
Choose your pain, right, choose your pain. So Charlie Munger,
who the late Charlie Munger, business partner of Warren Buffett,
He used to say that the first one hundred thousand
dollars is the hardest to get. You already have your
first hundred k stashed away. What did you do, and
how do you suggest other young people attack that goal
of trying to get that first six figure nest egg
(24:06):
invested in set.
Speaker 2 (24:06):
Aside, Yeah, I think this is a very nuanced question
because it doesn't acknowledge that people come from different backgrounds
or certain stead of privileges that you may have if
you come into saving for this goal. And I'd be
very cognizant about how I phrase this because I personally,
(24:28):
as like a disclaimer, didn't graduate with any student loans,
so I started out as like net zero, which is
I think more rare in today's economy. Sure, I want
to just preface that because I think it's something that
all of people acknowledges, like their inherent privileges when they
come into this journey. And everyone is different, so don't
feel behind if someone is doing something, because you're always
(24:51):
on your own journey.
Speaker 1 (24:52):
I'd say yeah.
Speaker 2 (24:53):
In terms of my own personal journey, I mostly I'm
a big saver, So, like I mentioned in my pre
a shpiel, my money mindset came a lot down to
savings and like spending little as money as possible when
I was younger, so I did a lot of that,
like the internship money that I made from my internships
(25:15):
during college. I tried to save as much as it
as I could. I had like a roth ira that
I opened in college, so I started contributing to that
when I was making a decent income from my internship money.
Speaker 1 (25:26):
So not only was the internship, by the way, getting
you experienced so you get an awesome job when you graduated,
you're also making money funneling that money into a wroth ira.
And gosh, think about money that's tossed into a wrath
in your late teens or early twenties while you're in college,
and what that's going to be worth. Money that will
(25:47):
never be taxed again when you reached that you know,
age of fifty nine and a half.
Speaker 2 (25:51):
Oh, of course, it's so powerful. And I think it's
always great to get started early. Even if you don't
think that this money is a significant sum, it still
adds up over time. You'd be surprised how much it
grows over time. For sure.
Speaker 1 (26:05):
I know I was looking at and it's one of
those things that you get told, but it's really hard
for it to actually like compute in your brain when
you're in your twenties. Because I know it was hard
for me. I was like, because of the job I
was in, I was hearing it all day every day, like,
this is the power of compounding returns. And I was like, cool,
I guess I'll do it, even though I don't really
know what this is going to look like fleshed out.
(26:26):
But once, once you've been investing for twenty years, then
you really see the power of compounding returns. You're looking
at it in the face. But until then, it's just
a mental exercise. And when you actually see your returns
out pacing your contributions, that's when you're like, oh, this
is what they were talking about and the light the
light went off earlier, like or went on earlier, but
(26:47):
it feels like it's amplified, you know, twenty x once
you're actually seeing it as you log into your account.
Speaker 2 (26:53):
Oh yes, for sure. I spent only like five years
out for my first start investing. Even within like five years,
I've already seen a lot more growth than what I imagine
it to look like.
Speaker 1 (27:04):
Yeah, which is just can accelerate I think the process
because that gets you excited about continuing to make those
max those accounts out and continuing to grow wealth. So
you said that you graduated with no student loan debt.
When you're speaking to younger gen zers, do you warn
them about the downsides of taking on too much student
(27:24):
loan debt? How do you help young people because it
seems like the way the perception of a college degree
has soured at least a little bit in our country,
and I think the main reason isn't because people think
college is a waste of time. I think they think
it costs too much money. So how do you help
young people think about that trade off of expensive education
(27:45):
and degree that can help you make more versus taking
another path.
Speaker 2 (27:49):
Yeah, that's a really interesting question because it's a really
big problem in our country. And I think the caveat
is that a lot of eighteen year olds are signing
loan paper in which they have no idea what the
terms mean or what it actually means in terms of
consequences when they sign that at your ripe age of
like sixteen, seventeen eighteen, which is honestly a little crazy
(28:12):
if you think about it. And something that I really
encourage people to think about is to work backwards in
the sense of think about even if you don't know
what you want to do exactly, perhaps choose or center
on like a field that you can do research on
in terms of something that you could be interested in
pursuing after college and working backwards to see what those
(28:37):
careers pay on average. And there are a lot of
resources nationwide and on the federal website that shows like
a breakdown of like the average pay for specific roles
and doing the math on how much money you have
to earn per year to pay off x amount of
debt that you're taking on. And so it's really down
(28:57):
to just like numbers and math, because what I see
really often that comes up on social media on the
news is people take on like six figures or a
really large sum of student loan debt and then they
realize the career that they're in won't be sufficient to
help pay out that debt in a reasonable time frame.
(29:18):
That's the biggest caveat What.
Speaker 1 (29:20):
Would you say to someone who says, but I really
like want to be an artist or like, there's some
careers that are just an engineer of some type is
easier to assess what the salary is going to be.
But even when I graduated, podcasting didn't exist, I knew
I wanted to work in long form audio, but like
(29:40):
it's really hard to know sometimes what your job is
going to look like. So I guess from that standpoint
if someone's saying, but I really want to pursue this thing,
and it's incredibly difficult to know exactly what direction it's
going to take me, but I'm compelled to to take
this course of study. How do you help them maybe
think how much debt they should be willing to take on.
Speaker 2 (30:02):
It's not a black and white picture, like you don't
have to give up your passion to do something else
and vice versa. And I am more of like a
very logical and practical person. So if I were in
like the shoes of someone who was conflicted about what
feel to go into, I would personally major in something
(30:24):
that is more broad and that can apply to different fields,
and then minor in something that is more concentrated or
focused on your particular like passion areas. So you have
the best of both worlds where you can use your
degree for more like of a broader economic thing, and
then your passion falls into it and you can always
pursue different passions, like even outside of your course of study,
(30:49):
like for example, my whole Etsy shop thing, I also
really like art. Actually also thought about art school for
a while and I decided against that. But that's like
a whole like personal conversation. But it was definite, Are well, I'm.
Speaker 1 (31:00):
Sure you are filtering through a bunch of those things,
the cost of school, What am I going to get paid?
I like art? Can I still do art from a
personal perspective that's fulfilling without making it my day job?
I mean those are all important questions right where you
wrestling with stuff like that?
Speaker 2 (31:13):
Oh yeah, definitely. I think when I was in high school,
I was more tunnel vision. I was more stubborn. I'm like, oh,
I really want to do this. But then I realized,
like when you're when you're working, like if you're working
on your passion, it could feel like a job eventually
because you have to do that, like you know, as
your career or like the means to sustain yourself and
your family. And something that I think was really interesting
(31:33):
for me is because I like more of like the
artistic side of things. I pursue things like marketing or
content creation where it made sense very practically, but also
allow me to use and flex more of those creative
muscles in my brain. In a way in which work
feels more like play now. Yeah, so kind of like
integrating your passion into your work, not directly pursuing your
(31:57):
passion is what I would personally steer my peers towards.
Speaker 1 (32:01):
A lot of wisdom in there, Lily, And I like that.
So your book The New Money Rules, like when you're
talking about the you're kind of talking about the old
way of doing things versus the new way of doing
things in different categories, And the one about budgeting was interesting,
and you talk about loud budgeting and you hinted at
this earlier when we were talking about kind of social media,
(32:22):
what are the perks of loud budgeting? And I don't
know what, what are the new rules of budgeting versus
the old ones?
Speaker 2 (32:29):
Yeah, So, in terms of the loud budgeting trend for context,
this was a really popular TikTok trend in like late
twenty twenty three early twenty twenty four, when there was
like a whole like deinfluencing era on TikTok. Like basically,
the premise of loud budgeting is sort of like sharing
your goals with your friends or your peers or in
(32:50):
this case TikTok with the audience of strangers, like what
your financial goals are, like your debt payoff goals, your
spending goal, savings goals, et cetera. So it was just
more of like a really fun and open conversation about
how people approach spending their money and how that can
inspire you to also create more of a plan or
(33:13):
set more goals and intentions with your spending. And I
think for gen Z it can come across as like
a quote restrictive topic like budgeting is not the most
fun word to think about because it feels like, oh,
I have to put guard rails down on how to
spend my money or put restrictions on myself.
Speaker 1 (33:34):
For so much I know exactly.
Speaker 2 (33:36):
It feels like dread and people don't really want to
think about that. But my whole premise in the book
and that I mentioned directly too, is I like the
idea of feeling more empowered and having clarity on where
I'm spending on. Am I spending on things that bring
me value and joy? Or do I open my credit
(33:58):
card segment one day and not even remember what I
spent the money on, Like that's the biggest thing for
me personally, and that I share with my audience too.
Tracking your expenses, your income, and just having a general
plan of like how you want to spend your funds
is just a great way to be more do you
have more clarity on your spending, seeing if your values
(34:20):
aligned with how you're managing your money, and just having
more confidence for future planning, especially since money is still
a big part of our everyday lives, even though we
don't really want to discuss or think about it.
Speaker 1 (34:34):
On the career side of things, when I think about
my parents' generation, they had a couple of jobs, and
I feel like even their parents had one, maybe two jobs,
like over the course of their career. It seems like,
based on predictions, the gen Z folks are going to
be well. They already are far more likely to job
hop but then some estimates say that they're going to
(34:54):
have like sixteen or seventeen jobs and maybe like five
or more careers, which is kind of hard to fathom.
And the job market seems like it's moving quicker than
ever in various directions, and it's kind of hard to
know where you're going to be five or ten years
from now. And there probably will be similar to the
podcasting thing, there will be new career opportunities that open
(35:17):
up that didn't exist before. How do you help gen
Z or what is your advice to gen Z to
help them navigate this kind of more fluid job market
that we're experiencing.
Speaker 2 (35:29):
Yeah, So there has been an interesting term that's been
floating around, I think quite recently. It's called the concept
is called a portfolio career, in which your career is
now defined by one job or necessarily even one industry,
but how your skills can be spread across different types
of industries to create a career that's not just like
(35:52):
one particular job. In that case, that something I think
like gen X and previous generations have been more clear cut.
They just have one job and they're like good. But
I think gen Z is more creative and they like
to find different ways to exercise their skills and to
monetize different hobbies or passions to create more opportunities for
(36:13):
themselves and to provide for the people they care about
around them.
Speaker 1 (36:17):
So those skills and abilities are going to be put
to use in a bunch of different ways throughout their career.
So focus more on the skill building and less on
this specific path that set before me. I'm going to
walk down it.
Speaker 2 (36:34):
Yes, especially with the Internet and the media and just
a lot of other opportunities depending on what fuel you're in.
If your skills are flexible across different types of work,
then you're not confined to one thing. Especially within the
job world, layoffs some more common these days, and so
(36:54):
that's something that I've been watching a lot in terms
of how that affects my own personal planning. So my
peers that I see, they're not putting all their eggs
in one basket, especially in today's economic environment, and how
there are more opportunities to do more types of career
moves than was when there was less technology available to
be more flexible with these things.
Speaker 1 (37:16):
Which makes me think now about side hustles for small businesses,
and yet one I think usually prioritizes quick income. The
other is a more long term approach, and it seems
like you're taking the build a small side business approach
that could eventually eclipse my day job. How do you
(37:37):
and I just think that there's just a limited upside
in most side hustles unless you are perpetually willing to
trade time for money, and that can work for a season.
It's hard to make it work for a decade. How
do you thread that needle of like building something on
the side versus pouring more into your day job versus
(37:57):
side hustling.
Speaker 2 (37:58):
So, like you mentioned, there are two main types of
side hustles. The first one is trading your time for money.
So this include things like ubers, door dash babysitting, dog walking,
very common, I guess, like side gigs amongst the communities today,
where if you need the money right away and you
have extra time, you can do things to get extra cash.
(38:20):
But those skills and those experiences won't compound on top
of each other unless you make it into a business
in which your inputs and your skills will compound over time. Personally,
I've never done well. I've done a few of the
first examples, like tutoring and teaching people, and I think
(38:44):
that was great When I was in college, when I
didn't have, you know, that much experience, I was still
building up my skills, like teaching was a skill that
I was interested in, you know, developing as a college student.
And when I got into my full time career, that
is actually my main priority in terms of my day
job and just making sure that I'm like continuously learning
(39:05):
new skills and growing in that aspect. But also my
other side business is my whole like content creation, media
portion of it where I'm using the skills in marketing.
In my day job, I work in marketing and funneling
that skill into a different entity, and so I can
apply those skills to something that can grow over time
(39:26):
and is not limited by like trading your time for
a specific hustle like I mentioned in the first hustle category.
Speaker 1 (39:38):
What would you say to a gen Z follower of
yours who wants to buy a house but feels like
it's impossible. Is buying a house still like part of
the American dream is still a necessity to feel like
you've made it in the United States of America? Or
I don't know, should we just be content to rent
because it's so much cheaper than buying, especially in almost
(40:00):
everywhere in the country.
Speaker 2 (40:01):
So one of the old rules that I mentioned in
the book actually is that previous generations. I hear this
from my parents all the time. It's like, you must
buy a house right away or else something bad will happen,
or you're not investing your money wise, like you don't
buy a house right now. That's like an old rule,
I'd say, because a lot of gen z we don't
(40:24):
really relate to that anymore, especially like you said, like
high housing prices, and it's just much more difficult, especially
I'm looking at like Bay Area, San Francisco is just
like insane how much housing prices grew just in the
past five years. Yeah, and the idea of owning a
house as a single person is a lot more daunting.
(40:46):
And I think for a lot of us, including myself,
we are okay and content with renting and that it's
not the end of the world. There are other means
to build wealth while you are in that stage of
building your career or trying to figure things out. But
I also say, I think I'm also seeing a really
(41:07):
interesting trend and I think this was also more apparent
five years ago too. Is like the whole idea of
like digital nomadding and not being tied down to one place.
That seems like a lifestyle that a lot of people
are interested in. But uh, I think you just have
to adjust your expectations, like you either have to be
willing to put in a lot of effort and planning
(41:28):
and work, or adjust your expectations where you're okay with less.
I think that's like the two main solutions that a
lot of people end up having to choose between.
Speaker 1 (41:38):
I like that adjust your expectations if you don't want
to put it in the work to get there, If
you're expectations are adjusted downward, you'll be a little bit
less disappointed. I think when you don't buy that house
at the appointed time that you assumed you should. I've
got just a few more questions I want to get
to with you, Lilyan, including like how you think about
(41:58):
financial freedom today as a twenty five year old. We
get to that and more right after this. Right we're
back still talking with Lillian Zang talking about the new
money rules for gen Z, and I just love this conversation.
(42:20):
I like that we're discussing how gen Z's perception I
guess really of financial freedom of what it looks like
to be successful in this country has really changed and
morphed from the way prior generations see it. And in
many ways, I feel like I'm somewhere in the middle
where I totally see some of those skewed expectations in
(42:43):
a good way, Like, yeah, the old way of doing
it is a little cliche and I want to create
my own definition of success, and I feel like gen
Z is taking that to another level and I think
it's really it's really neat and interesting to see. I'm curious, Lily,
and how do you define financial freedom for yourself today
and how has that definition evolved specifically over the past
(43:04):
six or seven years that you've really been engaging in
the personal finance space to the level you have.
Speaker 2 (43:10):
Oh. Yeah, I definitely think it's evolved quite a bit.
When I was first starting out versus now, and I'd
say when I was first starting out, I really didn't
have much confidence in terms of my abilities per se
to I guess make it in today's world in terms
of it was just very uncertain, like I didn't know
(43:31):
what my career would look like. I just didn't know
what my future was going to hold, and so it
had very scarcy mindset of like, oh, I must save
as much as I can and just like that's my
one and only goal. And so I think that was
a double edged sword because I was a very anxious,
like young adult trying to manage my own expectations and
(43:52):
what I think the world wanted from me. And that
was like one side, But the other side is that
it really gave me the foundation of just like getting
my ducks in a row and learning everything very early
and very quickly. And so by time now it's been
a couple of years since I've first got into this
(44:13):
journey more passionately per se and now I've built up
like a foundation where it's like, Okay, I see where
all my prep work leading up to this point has
helped me in my financial journey, and one of my
main goals going forward is just being able to enjoy
(44:35):
the present as well as the future. I feel like
when I was first starting out, I was very focused
on I guess like money as the main end goal.
But as time goes on, I realize like money is
just a means to live your life to the way
that you desire or expect, and that the object of
money itself is not the reason why we're doing all
(44:57):
these things, Like money is not the reason for all
of these things at the very end of the day.
And so that's kind of how my psychology around this
has expanded or matured over the last couple of years,
and I'm gaining a lot more clarity about myself and
what I hope my future will look like, and you know,
(45:18):
just be able to provide and protect the people around
me is also very important to me as well.
Speaker 1 (45:25):
You mentioned a scarcity mindset. I'm curious to hear, like
how it sounds like it was beneficial in some ways
but limiting also, So how do you get past that
if you feel like you're butting up against that scarcity mindset?
I feel like that kind of that can create people
who are perpetually frugal and unable to think, which can
(45:45):
be a great thing, but it can be unable then
to really think about the bigger level levers that you
can pull in terms of wealth building, business building, Like
it can be so easy to let that scarcity mindset
be a low ceiling that keeps you capped in what
you're able to accomplish.
Speaker 2 (46:04):
Of course, so when I was first starting out this journey,
a lot of my anxieties came from having as very
specified I guess like income that was working with and
being like, oh, like this is all I have, Like
I must, you know, save as much as possible from
this you know, one source. But then, as was mentioning
(46:24):
earlier with the whole like side hustle slash business stuff.
As I was gaining more experience in my media side
of the business I was working on, I began to
open my eyes more as opportunities just kind of like
started to fall into my lap in a way. As
I like put my skills, I put myself out there more,
(46:45):
I just started like seeing stuff kind of like flow
in my direction. And that's like kind of like exposure therapy,
where it's like the more things you try and the
more things you are open to like try doing. It's
like for me, the light bulb moment was when some
of my first like advertisers reached out to me. I
(47:06):
was like, oh, like, I was just being myself on
this platform and people are asking me for opportunities, which
was really mind blowing to me when I was like
a twenty two year old, twenty one year old college student.
And that just opened my mind up that like, opportunities
can come to you because at the end of the day,
(47:27):
money is just an exchange of value, of perceived value
that others find in yourself and your skills. And that's
where the switch happened for me.
Speaker 1 (47:36):
I love that. I love that. Okay, so you're twenty five,
You've already made a lot of financial progress, medium term,
long term financial goals, like what's on your horizon.
Speaker 2 (47:46):
Definitely, I'd say owning real estate at some point is
a i'd say medium to long term goal. After that,
I'd say most of my lifestyle expands are relatively regular,
so I don't really upgrade my lifestyle in terms of
(48:07):
that much. But I would love to be able to
just spend more on like certain travel experiences, like certain
like business class flights one day without having to think
about it. That would be like a really awesome goal
in the future. But we'll see. And I'd also love
to keep expanding like my businesses in the future as well,
which I would consider a financial goal in a way.
Speaker 1 (48:29):
Yeah, Okay, what's last question. What's one small money move
that somebody who's listening can make this week that will
matter ten years from now, because again we're trying to
make that what's that connection between the thing I can
do now to future me. That's like it's hard to
draw that line sometimes. Would you tell somebody if it
was like one thing that you can do right now.
Speaker 2 (48:50):
Yeah, I'd say something that has helped me and a
lot of my friends is automating your savings and paying
yourself first. So in a way, for example, if you're
getting a direct deposit, have some of that money be
routed to your savings account hyoled savings account automatically, because
(49:11):
that immediately allows you put funds a wait for your
future self or investing that money into a brokerage, if
that is something that you are doing and having less
incentive to spend whatever you see in your checking account.
Because I know with social media in POLS blind that
is a really big thing a lot of people my
age are facing. So I'll definitely recommend the automation aspect.
Speaker 1 (49:34):
All Right, Lillly, and I've really enjoyed our conversation. Thank
you for joining me. Where can listeners find out more
about you and about your brand new book.
Speaker 2 (49:42):
So, my brand new book, The New Money Rules, has
been published in November, so it's recently out. You can
find it everywhere books are sold, and you can find
me on Instagram, TikTok, LinkedIn YouTube, any place. My name
is Lilian Saying, and so you find me me there.
Speaker 1 (50:00):
Lovely, Lilian, thank you again so much. I appreciate it.
Speaker 2 (50:03):
Thank you, Joel.
Speaker 1 (50:04):
All Right, that was such a fun conversation with Lillian.
I'm excited to for other people to read her book,
and in particular young people. And so if you know
of a gen zer who needs practical money advice but
that's targeted specifically towards them, I think Lillian's book is
a great place to start, especially like with the holidays
(50:25):
coming up, You're like, oh, man, most people don't want
to receive a personal finance book, but they definitely don't
want to receive one from a boomer that was written
twenty years ago. So this is probably a better option
if you're trying to give the gift of a personal
finance book. But I think there were there were so
many things that are worth highlighting from this conversation. I
(50:49):
loved when Lilyan talked about having money as a kid,
and it gives you that ability to practice right to
see how you get money into your life and then
to practice using it. I think that's really that's really important.
And you know, I feel like on the podcast we
typically talk smack about social media. We use it in
(51:10):
very you know, austere ways, in particular the how to
Money Facebook group. That's the place I'm most keen to
engage and I love seeing people ask questions and help
each other. But for the most part, I think of
social media as a negative in the vast majority of
our lives, as a time suck, and as something that
can just push us towards envy. There's just a lot
(51:33):
of downsides from using social media regularly. But one of
the things Lilian said was that social media makes it
easier to be open, and I do think from that
standpoint when she's talking about the loud budgeting phenomena and
how that has been a really good thing where people
are able to say out loud, hey, these are things
I'm struggling with, or hey, here's what I'm trying to accomplish,
(51:53):
and it adds that level of accountability. When you're vocally open,
when you're putting your face out there and your desires
and your hopes out there, there is something that happens
inside of you when you say it out loud to
everyone you know and even people you don't know, that
can I think make it more likely that you're going
to achieve those goals. So maybe, just maybe that's a
(52:15):
positive social media. I wasn't expecting to walk away from
this conversation with just I mean so many things, even
that last thing when we talked about exposure therapy, and
she said, the more things you try, the more you're
going to find out about yourself and developing those skills,
they're going to translate across the spectrum when it comes
to your job. I think it's good advice for gen
(52:37):
Z in particular as you're building up your human capital,
but it's great advice for all of us people of
all ages to never stop learning and to make sure
that you're not just building a career with a company,
but that you're building yourself as a human so that
you have more opportunity and the ability to use those
(52:58):
interests and the abilities you've gained over time, that those
would translate into jobs with many employers in different industries
that you would be more than happy to work in.
It makes you more valuable, and that means that you
can pivot in a way that maybe most people wouldn't consider,
especially in a slightly weird job economy. I think gets
(53:20):
great advice. So all right, I hope this episode was helpful.
As always, thank you for listening. You can find links
to Lillian's book and some for socials up on our
website at howtomoney dot com. Until next time, Best Friend,
out
Welcome to How to Money. I'm Joel, and today I'm
talking gen Z versus the old money Rules with Lillian Zang. Okay,
(00:25):
let's talk about money and the youths today. While a
lot of personal finance advice is evergreen and helpful to
folks of all ages, it's also important to reach people
where they are and in the way they like to
consume information. As a middle aged dad, I hope to
stay relevant for a long time to come, but I
don't think I'll have the same street cred as my
guest today, so I wanted to have Lillian Zang on
(00:48):
to talk about the particular hurdles gen Z faces on
the financial front and the new money rules Lillian thinks
they should follow. Lillian, I promise not to tell you
to get off my line. Thank you for joining me
today on the podcast.
Speaker 2 (01:02):
Thank you, Joel. I'm super excited to be here today
and speak to you.
Speaker 1 (01:06):
I'm so glad to have you. First question I ask
everybody who comes on, is what do you like to
splurge on? Craft Beer is my big splurge, But hey,
it's okay because I'm saving and I'm investing for my future.
I'm not blowing at all on beer. What's your splurge.
Speaker 2 (01:20):
My splurge personally is definitely on convenience, so things that
make my life easier or help me save time. And
so one thing is I live near San Francisco, and
if you know anything, abouts up the hills there are insane,
so I really try to avoid driving there, So I
really like to splurge on ubers while I'm in the city.
In terms of other splurges, I like to splurge on
(01:42):
food meal prep kits to help me not think about
cooking as much, and also economy plus or premium flights
for me and my family so we can travel more comfortably.
Speaker 1 (01:52):
Okay, so meal prep kits is that we tried. I
think we got like an intro offer to one, and
we tried it, and the kids kind of rebelled against it.
And it's probably for the best because it is ultimately
it's cheaper right to go get source your own food
to the grocery store and coc your own meals. But
is it a way to like sneakily avoid going out
(02:13):
to eat as much which would save you money.
Speaker 2 (02:16):
I think that's an interesting question because if you look
at the meal prep kits, the cost per meal is
actually not that less than a restaurant meal, Okay. But
I also like it because it gives me ideas for
different recipes that I can perhaps replicate after I try
the meal kit. If I like something from the meal kit,
(02:36):
I can just source those own ingredients afterwards.
Speaker 1 (02:39):
Okay. So that's kind of smart. You're like learning the
recipe playbook through the meal kits, and then you're like, great,
now I know how to make some extra stuff. It's
like a tutorial of sorts in the kitchen. I think
of it that way.
Speaker 2 (02:50):
Oh. Yes, definitely gives me some more ideas for what
to diversify my palate.
Speaker 1 (02:54):
Okay, I like that. I like that all right. Your parents,
by the way, they emigrated to the US from China
in the nineteen eighties. Can you talk to me about
how that impacted your childhood and then ultimately your views
on personal finance too.
Speaker 2 (03:10):
Yeah. So my parents immigrated here in the eighties from
China during closely after the Cultural Revolution in China, which
was a very difficult time for a lot of the
citizens there at the time, and so they felt a
lot of the post educational effects economic effects, and that's
what drove a lot of people to the United States
(03:32):
at the time, including my parents, and so when they
came here, they had to start from zero in terms
of their education in this back home didn't count towards
education received in the US, so they had got to
college here. They were hustling really hard to get their
degrees here, which is so admirable. And when they had me,
(03:53):
I was born in two thousand. We grew up in
the Midwest and eventually moved to California for more job
opportunities when I was in first grade, and I remember
that it was really difficult for my dad sometimes when
it came to certain job opportunities because he wasn't a
(04:15):
native English speakers, So I think it was just a
bit more friction there in terms of how that shape
my upbringing with money. I remember my parents didn't really
talk to me about money in terms of educational way,
but I heard it through their own conversations and arguments
about money in terms of like a scarcity mindset, the
(04:37):
fear of it that it could run like run out
one day, or that the fear we did have enough
accumulated job opportunities, things like that. So even though he
didn't really speak about money, in the household directly, I
had a lot of subconscious thoughts about it that have
stayed with me into my early adulthood. And we could
go into more of that later.
Speaker 1 (04:58):
Yeah, So it's interesting that you say arguments, because in
my house there were arguments about money. Growing up and
being in the room across from my parents' room, I
heard those many nights. My parents wonderful people. They are.
I admire them more than anyone else I know, But
that's still influenced in a meaningful way the way I
(05:21):
think about money and not wanting to have money issues
to argue about with my future spouse. Do you think
that that seeped into you as well, hearing kind of
money fights and money problems and you're like, I don't
want that to be me.
Speaker 2 (05:36):
Oh, definitely. I remember hearing a lot of arguments when
I was younger, and even just being more hyper aware
that money was this like important construct in high school
and in college, and I just remember just thinking like, oh,
I never want to feel like I'm struggling or have
those types of anxious thoughts into my adulthood. And so,
(05:58):
going back to your point, I think that drove a
lot of my future career decisions and mindset in college,
which we can definitely dive deeper into, but definitely influence
sort of the way that I approached like work and
money growing up.
Speaker 1 (06:13):
Yeah, what particular experiences shaped your personal finance philosophy the most? Then,
so that maybe sparked a desire to increase your knowledge.
But then where did you turn right as you're trying
to figure out because personal finance most of the time
has not been especially when you were in high school,
it will be, I think for future generations more widely taught.
(06:37):
But where'd you get the information that you needed to
be able to succeed with money?
Speaker 2 (06:42):
Yeah? So, actually this is an interesting question because I
actually became very hyper aware of money from the conversations
from my parents but also in my own childhood endeavors.
So for context, I actually ran a small business for
a couple of years from like middle school to high school.
Speaker 1 (07:03):
Was it was this your Etsy business.
Speaker 2 (07:04):
This was my Etsy business that I talked about in
the introduction of the book, like the very first page,
this is my Etsy business. And so from a very
young age, I actually had allowance money and spending money.
So my parents never actually really provided me an allowance
as a kid. I just kind of made my own
allowance as a kid, and so I became very hyper
aware that it was very difficult to earn a dollar.
(07:28):
I knew the value of a dollar when I was
a kid. I was like, oh, like, this is tough,
Like it's not easy to make money. At least when
I was younger, I thought that, and growing up I
didn't really learn about like investing or stocks. For my parents.
The only thing they really taught me was to not
spend your money on unnecessary things and making sure you
(07:52):
save money. So those were the main things I learned
from my parents. I actually didn't really understand what a
stock was until I got to university, which I think
made me feel a little behind compared to some of
my peers. But I actually learned a lot of my
personal finance knowledge in college through YouTube videos. And this
(08:14):
is especially when YouTubers like Graham Stephen and like Andre Jick.
They were like extremely popular. I think they're still very popular,
but it was like the super high heydays. I also
learned through a personal finance course at Berkeley. Actually, the
professors there I've been teaching the course for maybe close
to two decades at this point, So it was a
(08:36):
pretty foundational course I took in college, but I know
not many schools have that sort of educational opportunity. But
besides from that, like books as well, like books and
online media i'd say are my main two sources at
the time.
Speaker 1 (08:53):
I love the story about your Etsy store, and I
think there's so much value for young people, Like when
we talk about high school jobs. The value is partially, yes,
in the money that you're earning, but it's in that
attachment of realizing that work is what leads to money,
(09:14):
which most of the time that's the case. Obviously, the
further along you get in your investing career, you have
the ability for your money to work harder for you
than you have to work for it, which is really
cool too. But there's this power I think when young kids,
young people earn money and then they have to make
saving for spending choices. I see that in my own
kids as well, as they're getting into that age where
(09:38):
they have choices to make with the money in their
account and they're like, how much money do I have
my account? Let me take a look. Okay, so I'm
going to plan and I go out with my friends,
I can get some boba tee or whatever, but then
I'm not gonna be able to get that other thing
I really want. What was that like for you, having
money as an early teenager, as a young teenager, and
then having to make those choices for yourself what you
wanted to do with it.
Speaker 2 (10:00):
Yeah, like you said, it really wasn't about the money.
Like as a kid, it is very exciting that you
have like free will to spend it how you like,
but it's mostly to see and practice a lot of
those habits when you were young, so by the time
you get to your adulthood, you have a sense of
what's going on instead of having to start from scratch.
(10:21):
And that was the case for me. I'd say, when
I was doing this whole Etsy business thing, I wasn't
really thinking about the future that much, to be honest,
Like I had some pocket cash that was good in
my childhood years, and I would spend it on like
stationary or search and shoes, like art supplies I wanted
(10:43):
that were more high end things like that. And by
the time I got to university, I had just like
a deeper understanding and appreciation of what it takes to
manage your finances properly and having more clarity as I
went through internships and starting my full time career after university,
(11:04):
and so that's been my journey so far with that.
Speaker 1 (11:07):
Do you think personal finance is different for gen Z
than it is for previous generations. There's so much talk
about generational differences, and I'm just curious to know your take. Personally,
I don't know how difference it is personal finance for
gen Z than it is for millennials or Gen xers.
Speaker 2 (11:27):
I think the foundational principles and the tactical strategies are
actually quite very similar. I'd say some of the main
differences are, of course technology. So with so much information
that's floating around, I see people and peers typically fall
into two buckets. The first bucket is that there's so
(11:48):
much information available that it's easier than ever to get
started early, to open accounts when you are at a
younger age and having to go to a bank physically.
That's the group of people and that's what I personally
identified with, that it was easier to get into it.
And the other subgroup of people that I find for
(12:09):
my generation is that because there is so much information
out there, people feel very overwhelmed and don't know where
to start, and they just like don't start altogether because
it's just too much. And personally for me, I realized
this problem really early on, and that's why I strive
(12:29):
to provide clarity for my audience who is watching, and
especially the book that I wrote to help condense a
lot of that knowledge, so people know there is one
place to look instead of being more overwhelmed. So that's
how I think it kind of fits in here.
Speaker 1 (12:46):
When we're talking about the generational divides, Like every young
generation gets labeled as bad with money. I remember as
a millennial coming out of college and it was like
millennials are idiots and they're never gonna get live up
to their parents' example and they're never going to be
okay with money. They just don't know what they're doing.
And it's interesting, like I feel like I started to
(13:08):
see those headlines about gen z too, but I'm seeing
a lot different sort of the take and it seems
like from what I can tell that gen Zers are
quite intent to learn about money. They're then some of
the statistics spare this out too, right, They're investing at
an earlier age and talking about money seems less taboo.
Why do you think gen Z seems to be a
(13:29):
little more open about money, or maybe at least just
the headline writers and the people who are writing those
news stories aren't antagonistic towards gen Z.
Speaker 2 (13:39):
I think gen Z are more open to different perspectives
and sharing what's going on with their personal lives as
well as their financial lives. And it's mostly because of
the rise of social media, Like on TikTok it's so
casual to see someone just talking about how much that
they have and how they're planning to pay that off,
and people really like to see the journey of going
(14:00):
from one place to a different and more developed version themselves.
I think that is really interesting, And you brought a
good point that there are news articles coming out with
how millennials were painted turned in picture, and I think
gen Z they feel a sort of different pressure in
terms of, like you said, gen Z is investing more.
(14:22):
There's a trend that more people are learning about it,
which is really good. But the main issue that I
personally see is because of how Covid had played out
the job market with AI generally, how wages are not
really keeping up and job growth in general, even though
a lot of gen Zers are intent to learning these things,
(14:43):
a lot of the economic factors and just how the
way the world works now makes it harder for people
like me to get ahead versus gen X or earlier
generations where you can get by on one income and
still live really comfortably. I think it's just harder. The
means a more difficult now.
Speaker 1 (15:01):
Yeah, No, I think you're right. I think it is
just like we get well. I want to get into
this later, buying a house. It is a different paradigm
than it was in twenty ten, and it's different than
it was in the nineteen seventies, and so it's that
is a hurdle for sure. The gen Z faces that
other generations did not face in the same degree. The
(15:22):
same thing is true the cost of college. So I
want to get into those specific topics in just a
little bit. Let's talk about investing though there's I love
that gen Z is more interested in investing, and I
think some of the you know, the apps to make
it easier to invest at your fingertips. The robin hoods
of this world are have certainly incited some of that excitement,
(15:43):
but there's also a downside to more investing interest, right,
and that is pursuing riskier strategies. And I think we've
also seen gen Z do that, p taking some really
risky investing endeavors. So what are you how do you
think about teaching the next generation about investing, and how
do you, yeah, what's your take on maybe some of
(16:05):
the investing the ways that they're they're going about investing.
Speaker 2 (16:09):
Personally? For me, I am a lot more risk averse,
i'd say than the average gen Zer. Most of my
portfolio is in broad market ETFs, and I have some
tech stocks that are like singular stocks from like the
company I work at, as well as some other ones.
But I personally don't really partake much in like you know,
(16:31):
like options day trading, not even that much crypto, to
be honest, And I'd say that is something for gen
Zers to recognize. I think a lot of my peers
are seeking short term gains like get rich quick or
get rich tomorrow, and I see that trend a lot,
(16:51):
but I think we tend to forget to zoom out
for the bigger picture to understand like why you're investing
in the first place. And for a lot of people,
especially if you're more forward looking in terms of your future.
It's less about short term gains for tomorrow, but more
about how you can build sustainable wealth over time and
(17:11):
letting that give you more options and freedom later on,
because when you really come down to it, money is
just a way to enjoy your life and to provide
for the life that you want to live. And so
that's my personal philosophy and just encouraging more people to
think long term rather than quick quick wins.
Speaker 1 (17:30):
Do you think that's maybe where the disconnect is sometimes
for gen z gets. It could be the lack of
personal finance education, but can also be the lack of
clarity I guess for why they're investing. And it feels
like maybe the sort of yolo mentality rules the day,
where hey, I see other people getting rich. Somebody else
(17:51):
invested in Nvidia last year or Bitcoin five years ago.
I've got to find another way to make bank quickly,
or I'm behind my peers. Is Is it that sort
of Is that part of maybe the reason for some
of the risk here investing habits of the gen z
is espousing and they're may be not as on board
the train of the get rich slowly bandwagon that maybe
(18:13):
you and I would be on.
Speaker 2 (18:14):
Oh yes, of course, the media definitely influences the way
we think about our investing decisions. Like I remember several
years ago with like like dogecoin and AMC where some
of the top headlines, remember the pump and dumps. I
think it's la fomo, like if you get in at
this time, you will get this result, which tends to
(18:35):
be what is getting played out on the media and
on you know, social media. Everyone's sharing their own perspectives
and there are a lot of people sharing how maybe
they made X amount of money through x investment, and
you should get in right now so you can also benefit.
But a lot of times those are typically things that
when people promote them, the only person that really benefits
(18:55):
are the people who are promoting them because they got
in early. Right by the time you see it, it's
probably already over. So I think it's just la le
fomo and things like that, and just not having clarity,
like you said, not knowing your reason or why. It
could also be due to like age naturally, like if
you're in your early twenties, you're probably not thinking about
(19:15):
what your life looks like at age. I don't know,
like fifty or beyond, and so it's just like lack
of goal setting and clarity, which is what I'm trying
to help promote to more of my peers.
Speaker 1 (19:26):
Yeah, it's almost like we understand, we know in some
part of remote part of our bodies or brain that
we will someday be old, but it's really hard to envision,
and so it's hard to empathize with our future self
and save and invest with that long term reality in mind.
I've got more, a lot more I want to get
to with you, Lilian, including like, hey, what what are
(19:48):
the old money rules? Why do we need to ditch them?
And what are the new money rules we need to
put in their place. We'll get to more with Lilian
right after this. We're back from the break, still talking
with Lilian Zang, talking about gen Z's perception of finances
(20:10):
and the reality of the money issues they have to
face these days that are different right than prior generations.
Some things are evergreen, some things remain the same, Some
things are very macro economic based, and I want to
get into some of that stuff with you, Lilian. We
briefly touched on like some of the economic pessimism I
(20:30):
think that exists among young adults. Do you see that
as like realistic, Hey, there's this things aren't as good
as they used to be. Think I don't have it
like my grandparents had it? Or do you think that
sort of mindset is limiting maybe their ability to build
their future.
Speaker 2 (20:46):
Yeah, I've seen several sides of this, so, like you said,
because previous generations have had it a lot more, I guess,
to put it simply than gen Z facing right now.
I think a lot of people fall into i'd say
a quote Yolo mindset where it's like, oh, like this
(21:06):
seems impossible, or I'll never be able to get to
where I envision my life to be. So I'm just
not going to think about the future. I'm just going
to save. I mean, I'm just going to spend and
enjoy my life today. That's what I tend to see
a lot. And then there's another group of people who
I think this is where I more fall into myself,
(21:27):
where it's like, oh, I know I have to you know,
work harder, but also planning if you start planning early
and educating yourself early and how financial literacy works and
how you can shape your future into something that is
more attainable for yourself. Then you can put together a
plan and figure out what are the steps I need
(21:49):
to take or prioritize to set myself up for a
future where a lot of these things could be possible
in the next few years, five or ten years down
the line.
Speaker 1 (22:00):
So do you think some of the yolo people you
run into it's not that they're not investing or planning
because they don't have the resources. I know that is
obviously true for many Americans, But would you say it's
more true that or yeah? From your perspective, are you
encountering people who could make the same decisions that you
(22:21):
make or that you encourage other people to make, but
they're just they have a different mentality and they don't
necessarily they're not thinking along those long term lines.
Speaker 2 (22:30):
Oh yeah, I know plenty of high earners in my
peer group that have the means to plan for the future,
but they're just not prioritizing it because they want to
live in the now, which is also valid. You want
to enjoy yourself now and plan for the future, But
I think a lot of people miss the future part.
Speaker 1 (22:51):
Yeah. I think you're right, and I think it makes sense,
Like it's easier to be like the future will take
care of itself. I can think about that later, especially
especially when you're in your twenty so many people really do.
It's at forty when people start to think about investing
and they're like, I guess I should start saving for retirement.
But by then, as you know, they've missed out on
(23:13):
a decade and a half or more of compounding returns.
And so by the time Lily and you hit age forty,
you're going to be well on your way. You might
not even have to invest another dollar for the rest
of your life. That goes to some of the coast
fire you talk about right, whereas they have to get
started and they have to work double time in order
(23:34):
to make that happen.
Speaker 2 (23:35):
Yeah, I think it's really interesting. I've seen several stories
around this where you either work really hard when you're young,
or you work even harder when you're older.
Speaker 1 (23:44):
Choose your pain, right, choose your pain. So Charlie Munger,
who the late Charlie Munger, business partner of Warren Buffett,
He used to say that the first one hundred thousand
dollars is the hardest to get. You already have your
first hundred k stashed away. What did you do, and
how do you suggest other young people attack that goal
of trying to get that first six figure nest egg
(24:06):
invested in set.
Speaker 2 (24:06):
Aside, Yeah, I think this is a very nuanced question
because it doesn't acknowledge that people come from different backgrounds
or certain stead of privileges that you may have if
you come into saving for this goal. And I'd be
very cognizant about how I phrase this because I personally,
(24:28):
as like a disclaimer, didn't graduate with any student loans,
so I started out as like net zero, which is
I think more rare in today's economy. Sure, I want
to just preface that because I think it's something that
all of people acknowledges, like their inherent privileges when they
come into this journey. And everyone is different, so don't
feel behind if someone is doing something, because you're always
(24:51):
on your own journey.
Speaker 1 (24:52):
I'd say yeah.
Speaker 2 (24:53):
In terms of my own personal journey, I mostly I'm
a big saver, So, like I mentioned in my pre
a shpiel, my money mindset came a lot down to
savings and like spending little as money as possible when
I was younger, so I did a lot of that,
like the internship money that I made from my internships
(25:15):
during college. I tried to save as much as it
as I could. I had like a roth ira that
I opened in college, so I started contributing to that
when I was making a decent income from my internship money.
Speaker 1 (25:26):
So not only was the internship, by the way, getting
you experienced so you get an awesome job when you graduated,
you're also making money funneling that money into a wroth ira.
And gosh, think about money that's tossed into a wrath
in your late teens or early twenties while you're in college,
and what that's going to be worth. Money that will
(25:47):
never be taxed again when you reached that you know,
age of fifty nine and a half.
Speaker 2 (25:51):
Oh, of course, it's so powerful. And I think it's
always great to get started early. Even if you don't
think that this money is a significant sum, it still
adds up over time. You'd be surprised how much it
grows over time. For sure.
Speaker 1 (26:05):
I know I was looking at and it's one of
those things that you get told, but it's really hard
for it to actually like compute in your brain when
you're in your twenties. Because I know it was hard
for me. I was like, because of the job I
was in, I was hearing it all day every day, like,
this is the power of compounding returns. And I was like, cool,
I guess I'll do it, even though I don't really
know what this is going to look like fleshed out.
(26:26):
But once, once you've been investing for twenty years, then
you really see the power of compounding returns. You're looking
at it in the face. But until then, it's just
a mental exercise. And when you actually see your returns
out pacing your contributions, that's when you're like, oh, this
is what they were talking about and the light the
light went off earlier, like or went on earlier, but
(26:47):
it feels like it's amplified, you know, twenty x once
you're actually seeing it as you log into your account.
Speaker 2 (26:53):
Oh yes, for sure. I spent only like five years
out for my first start investing. Even within like five years,
I've already seen a lot more growth than what I imagine
it to look like.
Speaker 1 (27:04):
Yeah, which is just can accelerate I think the process
because that gets you excited about continuing to make those
max those accounts out and continuing to grow wealth. So
you said that you graduated with no student loan debt.
When you're speaking to younger gen zers, do you warn
them about the downsides of taking on too much student
(27:24):
loan debt? How do you help young people because it
seems like the way the perception of a college degree
has soured at least a little bit in our country,
and I think the main reason isn't because people think
college is a waste of time. I think they think
it costs too much money. So how do you help
young people think about that trade off of expensive education
(27:45):
and degree that can help you make more versus taking
another path.
Speaker 2 (27:49):
Yeah, that's a really interesting question because it's a really
big problem in our country. And I think the caveat
is that a lot of eighteen year olds are signing
loan paper in which they have no idea what the
terms mean or what it actually means in terms of
consequences when they sign that at your ripe age of
like sixteen, seventeen eighteen, which is honestly a little crazy
(28:12):
if you think about it. And something that I really
encourage people to think about is to work backwards in
the sense of think about even if you don't know
what you want to do exactly, perhaps choose or center
on like a field that you can do research on
in terms of something that you could be interested in
pursuing after college and working backwards to see what those
(28:37):
careers pay on average. And there are a lot of
resources nationwide and on the federal website that shows like
a breakdown of like the average pay for specific roles
and doing the math on how much money you have
to earn per year to pay off x amount of
debt that you're taking on. And so it's really down
(28:57):
to just like numbers and math, because what I see
really often that comes up on social media on the
news is people take on like six figures or a
really large sum of student loan debt and then they
realize the career that they're in won't be sufficient to
help pay out that debt in a reasonable time frame.
(29:18):
That's the biggest caveat What.
Speaker 1 (29:20):
Would you say to someone who says, but I really
like want to be an artist or like, there's some
careers that are just an engineer of some type is
easier to assess what the salary is going to be.
But even when I graduated, podcasting didn't exist, I knew
I wanted to work in long form audio, but like
(29:40):
it's really hard to know sometimes what your job is
going to look like. So I guess from that standpoint
if someone's saying, but I really want to pursue this thing,
and it's incredibly difficult to know exactly what direction it's
going to take me, but I'm compelled to to take
this course of study. How do you help them maybe
think how much debt they should be willing to take on.
Speaker 2 (30:02):
It's not a black and white picture, like you don't
have to give up your passion to do something else
and vice versa. And I am more of like a
very logical and practical person. So if I were in
like the shoes of someone who was conflicted about what
feel to go into, I would personally major in something
(30:24):
that is more broad and that can apply to different fields,
and then minor in something that is more concentrated or
focused on your particular like passion areas. So you have
the best of both worlds where you can use your
degree for more like of a broader economic thing, and
then your passion falls into it and you can always
pursue different passions, like even outside of your course of study,
(30:49):
like for example, my whole Etsy shop thing, I also
really like art. Actually also thought about art school for
a while and I decided against that. But that's like
a whole like personal conversation. But it was definite, Are well, I'm.
Speaker 1 (31:00):
Sure you are filtering through a bunch of those things,
the cost of school, What am I going to get paid?
I like art? Can I still do art from a
personal perspective that's fulfilling without making it my day job?
I mean those are all important questions right where you
wrestling with stuff like that?
Speaker 2 (31:13):
Oh yeah, definitely. I think when I was in high school,
I was more tunnel vision. I was more stubborn. I'm like, oh,
I really want to do this. But then I realized,
like when you're when you're working, like if you're working
on your passion, it could feel like a job eventually
because you have to do that, like you know, as
your career or like the means to sustain yourself and
your family. And something that I think was really interesting
(31:33):
for me is because I like more of like the
artistic side of things. I pursue things like marketing or
content creation where it made sense very practically, but also
allow me to use and flex more of those creative
muscles in my brain. In a way in which work
feels more like play now. Yeah, so kind of like
integrating your passion into your work, not directly pursuing your
(31:57):
passion is what I would personally steer my peers towards.
Speaker 1 (32:01):
A lot of wisdom in there, Lily, And I like that.
So your book The New Money Rules, like when you're
talking about the you're kind of talking about the old
way of doing things versus the new way of doing
things in different categories, And the one about budgeting was interesting,
and you talk about loud budgeting and you hinted at
this earlier when we were talking about kind of social media,
(32:22):
what are the perks of loud budgeting? And I don't
know what, what are the new rules of budgeting versus
the old ones?
Speaker 2 (32:29):
Yeah, So, in terms of the loud budgeting trend for context,
this was a really popular TikTok trend in like late
twenty twenty three early twenty twenty four, when there was
like a whole like deinfluencing era on TikTok. Like basically,
the premise of loud budgeting is sort of like sharing
your goals with your friends or your peers or in
(32:50):
this case TikTok with the audience of strangers, like what
your financial goals are, like your debt payoff goals, your
spending goal, savings goals, et cetera. So it was just
more of like a really fun and open conversation about
how people approach spending their money and how that can
inspire you to also create more of a plan or
(33:13):
set more goals and intentions with your spending. And I
think for gen Z it can come across as like
a quote restrictive topic like budgeting is not the most
fun word to think about because it feels like, oh,
I have to put guard rails down on how to
spend my money or put restrictions on myself.
Speaker 1 (33:34):
For so much I know exactly.
Speaker 2 (33:36):
It feels like dread and people don't really want to
think about that. But my whole premise in the book
and that I mentioned directly too, is I like the
idea of feeling more empowered and having clarity on where
I'm spending on. Am I spending on things that bring
me value and joy? Or do I open my credit
(33:58):
card segment one day and not even remember what I
spent the money on, Like that's the biggest thing for
me personally, and that I share with my audience too.
Tracking your expenses, your income, and just having a general
plan of like how you want to spend your funds
is just a great way to be more do you
have more clarity on your spending, seeing if your values
(34:20):
aligned with how you're managing your money, and just having
more confidence for future planning, especially since money is still
a big part of our everyday lives, even though we
don't really want to discuss or think about it.
Speaker 1 (34:34):
On the career side of things, when I think about
my parents' generation, they had a couple of jobs, and
I feel like even their parents had one, maybe two jobs,
like over the course of their career. It seems like,
based on predictions, the gen Z folks are going to
be well. They already are far more likely to job
hop but then some estimates say that they're going to
(34:54):
have like sixteen or seventeen jobs and maybe like five
or more careers, which is kind of hard to fathom.
And the job market seems like it's moving quicker than
ever in various directions, and it's kind of hard to
know where you're going to be five or ten years
from now. And there probably will be similar to the
podcasting thing, there will be new career opportunities that open
(35:17):
up that didn't exist before. How do you help gen
Z or what is your advice to gen Z to
help them navigate this kind of more fluid job market
that we're experiencing.
Speaker 2 (35:29):
Yeah, So there has been an interesting term that's been
floating around, I think quite recently. It's called the concept
is called a portfolio career, in which your career is
now defined by one job or necessarily even one industry,
but how your skills can be spread across different types
of industries to create a career that's not just like
(35:52):
one particular job. In that case, that something I think
like gen X and previous generations have been more clear cut.
They just have one job and they're like good. But
I think gen Z is more creative and they like
to find different ways to exercise their skills and to
monetize different hobbies or passions to create more opportunities for
(36:13):
themselves and to provide for the people they care about
around them.
Speaker 1 (36:17):
So those skills and abilities are going to be put
to use in a bunch of different ways throughout their career.
So focus more on the skill building and less on
this specific path that set before me. I'm going to
walk down it.
Speaker 2 (36:34):
Yes, especially with the Internet and the media and just
a lot of other opportunities depending on what fuel you're in.
If your skills are flexible across different types of work,
then you're not confined to one thing. Especially within the
job world, layoffs some more common these days, and so
(36:54):
that's something that I've been watching a lot in terms
of how that affects my own personal planning. So my
peers that I see, they're not putting all their eggs
in one basket, especially in today's economic environment, and how
there are more opportunities to do more types of career
moves than was when there was less technology available to
be more flexible with these things.
Speaker 1 (37:16):
Which makes me think now about side hustles for small businesses,
and yet one I think usually prioritizes quick income. The
other is a more long term approach, and it seems
like you're taking the build a small side business approach
that could eventually eclipse my day job. How do you
(37:37):
and I just think that there's just a limited upside
in most side hustles unless you are perpetually willing to
trade time for money, and that can work for a season.
It's hard to make it work for a decade. How
do you thread that needle of like building something on
the side versus pouring more into your day job versus
(37:57):
side hustling.
Speaker 2 (37:58):
So, like you mentioned, there are two main types of
side hustles. The first one is trading your time for money.
So this include things like ubers, door dash babysitting, dog walking,
very common, I guess, like side gigs amongst the communities today,
where if you need the money right away and you
have extra time, you can do things to get extra cash.
(38:20):
But those skills and those experiences won't compound on top
of each other unless you make it into a business
in which your inputs and your skills will compound over time. Personally,
I've never done well. I've done a few of the
first examples, like tutoring and teaching people, and I think
(38:44):
that was great When I was in college, when I
didn't have, you know, that much experience, I was still
building up my skills, like teaching was a skill that
I was interested in, you know, developing as a college student.
And when I got into my full time career, that
is actually my main priority in terms of my day
job and just making sure that I'm like continuously learning
(39:05):
new skills and growing in that aspect. But also my
other side business is my whole like content creation, media
portion of it where I'm using the skills in marketing.
In my day job, I work in marketing and funneling
that skill into a different entity, and so I can
apply those skills to something that can grow over time
(39:26):
and is not limited by like trading your time for
a specific hustle like I mentioned in the first hustle category.
Speaker 1 (39:38):
What would you say to a gen Z follower of
yours who wants to buy a house but feels like
it's impossible. Is buying a house still like part of
the American dream is still a necessity to feel like
you've made it in the United States of America? Or
I don't know, should we just be content to rent
because it's so much cheaper than buying, especially in almost
(40:00):
everywhere in the country.
Speaker 2 (40:01):
So one of the old rules that I mentioned in
the book actually is that previous generations. I hear this
from my parents all the time. It's like, you must
buy a house right away or else something bad will happen,
or you're not investing your money wise, like you don't
buy a house right now. That's like an old rule,
I'd say, because a lot of gen z we don't
(40:24):
really relate to that anymore, especially like you said, like
high housing prices, and it's just much more difficult, especially
I'm looking at like Bay Area, San Francisco is just
like insane how much housing prices grew just in the
past five years. Yeah, and the idea of owning a
house as a single person is a lot more daunting.
(40:46):
And I think for a lot of us, including myself,
we are okay and content with renting and that it's
not the end of the world. There are other means
to build wealth while you are in that stage of
building your career or trying to figure things out. But
I also say, I think I'm also seeing a really
(41:07):
interesting trend and I think this was also more apparent
five years ago too. Is like the whole idea of
like digital nomadding and not being tied down to one place.
That seems like a lifestyle that a lot of people
are interested in. But uh, I think you just have
to adjust your expectations, like you either have to be
willing to put in a lot of effort and planning
(41:28):
and work, or adjust your expectations where you're okay with less.
I think that's like the two main solutions that a
lot of people end up having to choose between.
Speaker 1 (41:38):
I like that adjust your expectations if you don't want
to put it in the work to get there, If
you're expectations are adjusted downward, you'll be a little bit
less disappointed. I think when you don't buy that house
at the appointed time that you assumed you should. I've
got just a few more questions I want to get
to with you, Lilyan, including like how you think about
(41:58):
financial freedom today as a twenty five year old. We
get to that and more right after this. Right we're
back still talking with Lillian Zang talking about the new
money rules for gen Z, and I just love this conversation.
(42:20):
I like that we're discussing how gen Z's perception I
guess really of financial freedom of what it looks like
to be successful in this country has really changed and
morphed from the way prior generations see it. And in
many ways, I feel like I'm somewhere in the middle
where I totally see some of those skewed expectations in
(42:43):
a good way, Like, yeah, the old way of doing
it is a little cliche and I want to create
my own definition of success, and I feel like gen
Z is taking that to another level and I think
it's really it's really neat and interesting to see. I'm curious, Lily,
and how do you define financial freedom for yourself today
and how has that definition evolved specifically over the past
(43:04):
six or seven years that you've really been engaging in
the personal finance space to the level you have.
Speaker 2 (43:10):
Oh. Yeah, I definitely think it's evolved quite a bit.
When I was first starting out versus now, and I'd
say when I was first starting out, I really didn't
have much confidence in terms of my abilities per se
to I guess make it in today's world in terms
of it was just very uncertain, like I didn't know
(43:31):
what my career would look like. I just didn't know
what my future was going to hold, and so it
had very scarcy mindset of like, oh, I must save
as much as I can and just like that's my
one and only goal. And so I think that was
a double edged sword because I was a very anxious,
like young adult trying to manage my own expectations and
(43:52):
what I think the world wanted from me. And that
was like one side, But the other side is that
it really gave me the foundation of just like getting
my ducks in a row and learning everything very early
and very quickly. And so by time now it's been
a couple of years since I've first got into this
(44:13):
journey more passionately per se and now I've built up
like a foundation where it's like, Okay, I see where
all my prep work leading up to this point has
helped me in my financial journey, and one of my
main goals going forward is just being able to enjoy
(44:35):
the present as well as the future. I feel like
when I was first starting out, I was very focused
on I guess like money as the main end goal.
But as time goes on, I realize like money is
just a means to live your life to the way
that you desire or expect, and that the object of
money itself is not the reason why we're doing all
(44:57):
these things, Like money is not the reason for all
of these things at the very end of the day.
And so that's kind of how my psychology around this
has expanded or matured over the last couple of years,
and I'm gaining a lot more clarity about myself and
what I hope my future will look like, and you know,
(45:18):
just be able to provide and protect the people around
me is also very important to me as well.
Speaker 1 (45:25):
You mentioned a scarcity mindset. I'm curious to hear, like
how it sounds like it was beneficial in some ways
but limiting also, So how do you get past that
if you feel like you're butting up against that scarcity mindset?
I feel like that kind of that can create people
who are perpetually frugal and unable to think, which can
(45:45):
be a great thing, but it can be unable then
to really think about the bigger level levers that you
can pull in terms of wealth building, business building, Like
it can be so easy to let that scarcity mindset
be a low ceiling that keeps you capped in what
you're able to accomplish.
Speaker 2 (46:04):
Of course, so when I was first starting out this journey,
a lot of my anxieties came from having as very
specified I guess like income that was working with and
being like, oh, like this is all I have, Like
I must, you know, save as much as possible from
this you know, one source. But then, as was mentioning
(46:24):
earlier with the whole like side hustle slash business stuff.
As I was gaining more experience in my media side
of the business I was working on, I began to
open my eyes more as opportunities just kind of like
started to fall into my lap in a way. As
I like put my skills, I put myself out there more,
(46:45):
I just started like seeing stuff kind of like flow
in my direction. And that's like kind of like exposure therapy,
where it's like the more things you try and the
more things you are open to like try doing. It's
like for me, the light bulb moment was when some
of my first like advertisers reached out to me. I
(47:06):
was like, oh, like, I was just being myself on
this platform and people are asking me for opportunities, which
was really mind blowing to me when I was like
a twenty two year old, twenty one year old college student.
And that just opened my mind up that like, opportunities
can come to you because at the end of the day,
(47:27):
money is just an exchange of value, of perceived value
that others find in yourself and your skills. And that's
where the switch happened for me.
Speaker 1 (47:36):
I love that. I love that. Okay, so you're twenty five,
You've already made a lot of financial progress, medium term,
long term financial goals, like what's on your horizon.
Speaker 2 (47:46):
Definitely, I'd say owning real estate at some point is
a i'd say medium to long term goal. After that,
I'd say most of my lifestyle expands are relatively regular,
so I don't really upgrade my lifestyle in terms of
(48:07):
that much. But I would love to be able to
just spend more on like certain travel experiences, like certain
like business class flights one day without having to think
about it. That would be like a really awesome goal
in the future. But we'll see. And I'd also love
to keep expanding like my businesses in the future as well,
which I would consider a financial goal in a way.
Speaker 1 (48:29):
Yeah, Okay, what's last question. What's one small money move
that somebody who's listening can make this week that will
matter ten years from now, because again we're trying to
make that what's that connection between the thing I can
do now to future me. That's like it's hard to
draw that line sometimes. Would you tell somebody if it
was like one thing that you can do right now.
Speaker 2 (48:50):
Yeah, I'd say something that has helped me and a
lot of my friends is automating your savings and paying
yourself first. So in a way, for example, if you're
getting a direct deposit, have some of that money be
routed to your savings account hyoled savings account automatically, because
(49:11):
that immediately allows you put funds a wait for your
future self or investing that money into a brokerage, if
that is something that you are doing and having less
incentive to spend whatever you see in your checking account.
Because I know with social media in POLS blind that
is a really big thing a lot of people my
age are facing. So I'll definitely recommend the automation aspect.
Speaker 1 (49:34):
All Right, Lillly, and I've really enjoyed our conversation. Thank
you for joining me. Where can listeners find out more
about you and about your brand new book.
Speaker 2 (49:42):
So, my brand new book, The New Money Rules, has
been published in November, so it's recently out. You can
find it everywhere books are sold, and you can find
me on Instagram, TikTok, LinkedIn YouTube, any place. My name
is Lilian Saying, and so you find me me there.
Speaker 1 (50:00):
Lovely, Lilian, thank you again so much. I appreciate it.
Speaker 2 (50:03):
Thank you, Joel.
Speaker 1 (50:04):
All Right, that was such a fun conversation with Lillian.
I'm excited to for other people to read her book,
and in particular young people. And so if you know
of a gen zer who needs practical money advice but
that's targeted specifically towards them, I think Lillian's book is
a great place to start, especially like with the holidays
(50:25):
coming up, You're like, oh, man, most people don't want
to receive a personal finance book, but they definitely don't
want to receive one from a boomer that was written
twenty years ago. So this is probably a better option
if you're trying to give the gift of a personal
finance book. But I think there were there were so
many things that are worth highlighting from this conversation. I
(50:49):
loved when Lilyan talked about having money as a kid,
and it gives you that ability to practice right to
see how you get money into your life and then
to practice using it. I think that's really that's really important.
And you know, I feel like on the podcast we
typically talk smack about social media. We use it in
(51:10):
very you know, austere ways, in particular the how to
Money Facebook group. That's the place I'm most keen to
engage and I love seeing people ask questions and help
each other. But for the most part, I think of
social media as a negative in the vast majority of
our lives, as a time suck, and as something that
can just push us towards envy. There's just a lot
(51:33):
of downsides from using social media regularly. But one of
the things Lilian said was that social media makes it
easier to be open, and I do think from that
standpoint when she's talking about the loud budgeting phenomena and
how that has been a really good thing where people
are able to say out loud, hey, these are things
I'm struggling with, or hey, here's what I'm trying to accomplish,
(51:53):
and it adds that level of accountability. When you're vocally open,
when you're putting your face out there and your desires
and your hopes out there, there is something that happens
inside of you when you say it out loud to
everyone you know and even people you don't know, that
can I think make it more likely that you're going
to achieve those goals. So maybe, just maybe that's a
(52:15):
positive social media. I wasn't expecting to walk away from
this conversation with just I mean so many things, even
that last thing when we talked about exposure therapy, and
she said, the more things you try, the more you're
going to find out about yourself and developing those skills,
they're going to translate across the spectrum when it comes
to your job. I think it's good advice for gen
(52:37):
Z in particular as you're building up your human capital,
but it's great advice for all of us people of
all ages to never stop learning and to make sure
that you're not just building a career with a company,
but that you're building yourself as a human so that
you have more opportunity and the ability to use those
(52:58):
interests and the abilities you've gained over time, that those
would translate into jobs with many employers in different industries
that you would be more than happy to work in.
It makes you more valuable, and that means that you
can pivot in a way that maybe most people wouldn't consider,
especially in a slightly weird job economy. I think gets
(53:20):
great advice. So all right, I hope this episode was helpful.
As always, thank you for listening. You can find links
to Lillian's book and some for socials up on our
website at howtomoney dot com. Until next time, Best Friend,
out
Hosts And Creators
Joel Larsgaard
Matthew Altmix
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