March 26, 2025 • 52 mins
Today on the podcast we’re joined by Madeline Mann who is an HR and recruiting leader and is also the author of Reverse the Search which hits the shelves on April 1st. Madeline spun her insider knowledge of the hiring process into an award-winning career coaching empire, called Self Made Millennial, where she has reached millions of folks. Through her platforms and coaching, Madeline works to turn job seekers into ‘job shoppers', enabling any professional to land high-paying job offers, with many even landing roles at competitive Fortune 500 companies. She's been featured over in the WSJ, NYT, ABC News, she has over 24 million views over on YouTube, and we're excited for listeners to hear her insight and wisdom. We discuss the old methods of job hunting and why they no longer work, what it takes to stand out amid countless applicants, the biggest mistakes everyone makes on their resumes, the best questions to ask during an interview, and plenty more!
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Welcome to Out of Money. I'm Joel, I'm Matt, and
today we're talking get in the Job you Want with
Madeline Mann.
Speaker 2 (00:25):
Yeah. So, Madeleine Man is an HR and recruiting leader.
She's the author of Reverse the Search, and she spun
her insulter knowledge of the hiring process into an award
winning career coaching empire called Self Made and Millennial, where
she has reached a ton of folks. And by the way,
her book, Reverse the Search it comes out next week
April first, so keep an.
Speaker 1 (00:45):
Eye out for that.
Speaker 2 (00:46):
Through her platform and coaching, Madeline works to turn job
seekers into job shoppers, enabling any professional out there to
land high paying job offers, with many of them even
landing roles at Competitive Tune five hundred companies. Basically, it
seems like we've been doing job hunting all wrong, and
we're going to talk about that today. She's been featured
over in The Journal, The Times, ABC News, She's got
(01:09):
over twenty four million views on YouTube, and we are
excited for her to now join us on our humble
little podcast. Madeline Mann, thank you for joining us.
Speaker 3 (01:18):
Hi, Matt and Joel, so good to be here.
Speaker 1 (01:20):
We're excited to have you, Madeline, so much to talk about,
specifically in regards to finding a great job and hopefully
making it easier than most people tend to make it.
But our first question to everyone who comes on the
show is what do you like to splurge on? Matt
and I spurgeon nice craft beer, but hey, it's okay
because we're doing the right thing. We're saving and investing
for our future. What is your splurge?
Speaker 3 (01:42):
So I'm not one who likes to splurge. But one
thing that I've done that I think people find kind
of ritzy or something that almost no one does, is
I have a stylist pick out nearly all of my clothes.
Speaker 1 (01:57):
That does sound fancy? It does Yep, that's not something
I've ever done.
Speaker 3 (02:01):
Yeah, I I I'm someone who loves color. I don't
have a black shirt in my closet. And I would
always buy clothes and I could never wear any of
them because none of them matched or I just was
bad at picking out things that looked good on me.
And so I invested in a stylist and now I
actually spend less money on clothes and all that because
(02:23):
they're everything matches, everything looks good on me. I like everything,
so I keep it longer, I wear it more. So
it's it's in the end. I do think it was
it's a very good investment where I'm saving money. But yes,
it is a little bit, uh, I a little boo.
I thought, Yeah, it's boushie. I thought a little silly
because it's like people wake up every day and just
dress themselves. Why can't I do that? But I can't.
Speaker 1 (02:46):
I appreciate that you're the opposite of Steve Jobs that
you I too. I think the sort of black turtleneck
on repeat, it's a little boring, Like there's like, I
don't know, jazz it up a little, but I'm curious.
What does it look like to have your own stylist?
Is this like an online relationship? Are they emailing you? Hey,
these are the fits, the specific outfits I would recommend
that you dress in. Are they like buying it and
(03:07):
shipping it to you? What are the details there?
Speaker 3 (03:10):
Right? So she is remote and yeah, she did a
full analysis based on photos of like what what are
the best looks for my body and all of that,
and the color palettes where every color will go together,
and yeah, as she just sends me all the links
of Hey, here are all the things you should buy,
and here's the sizing of everything you should buy, and
(03:30):
I just buy it myself.
Speaker 1 (03:31):
Super cool.
Speaker 2 (03:32):
Have you heard of these companies that exist that where
you get your colors done? They like put colors in
front of your face or whatever.
Speaker 1 (03:39):
So it, yes, is this a.
Speaker 2 (03:40):
Part of like what it is? As stylist does as well.
So is this this is something you believe in?
Speaker 3 (03:45):
Yes, she did that. She did that whole thing, except
we did it remotely with photos and all that she's
in Ireland?
Speaker 1 (03:50):
So is that just about what colors look best on you?
Is that? Is that what it is?
Speaker 3 (03:53):
Yeah? Yeah, okay, exactly.
Speaker 2 (03:55):
All right, So Joel just needs to wear more blue
to like make his eyes pop. Yeah, maybe what we
need to do. I think I need a consultant professional that. No, no, no,
I'm good enough, Joe, I got this. You're free at least, Madelin.
Why do you prefer the term job shopping? I've noticed
that right, Like, so instead of like job hunting job seeking,
you like to use the term job shopping. Why is
(04:17):
that the one that you often like.
Speaker 3 (04:19):
To use the most, Because so many people don't realize
that the job search is not just one where we
are beholden to employers where we hope that they deign
to give us attention. When I was working with clients
and transforming their confidence and their job search approach, I
realized that they started shopping around for opportunities, they started
(04:41):
meeting different employers, and the majority of their interview opportunities
did not come from them applying to these jobs and
looking for these jobs. The majority came from these companies saying, hey,
we found you, please interview with us. It came inbound.
And so once you start doing these strategies, you find
(05:02):
yourself that, Wow, it doesn't have to be this effortfull hunt,
but it can be more of a fun shopping experience
where you're shopping for your future, you're shopping for your
next career move.
Speaker 1 (05:13):
Yeah, I had backyard chickens. A couple of them died.
That's why I say had, But we'll get back to
having more again in the future. I think of like
when I watch them eat, they're kind of like pecking
at the ground, and lots of times they come up
with nothing or just dirt or something like that, And
I think that's what it feels like as a job hunter.
Sometimes like you're pecking aimlessly and then you get a
mouthful of dirt. I guess the smarter chickens, I guess.
(05:34):
So it's like, what a waste of my time. But like,
there are so many stats Battlin that reveal that a
lot of America workers in particular, they're kind of unhappy
right with the status quo. And maybe their their boss
is saying, ah, we're going to return to the office.
You need to come back in a few days a week,
and now they're even less happy. So in your experience,
why is it that people tend to avoid shopping for
(05:55):
jobs given how little satisfaction people seem to have with
their jobs.
Speaker 3 (05:59):
Well, the thing that people hit their heads against the
wall is is if they worry that they're going to
put themselves out in the job market, find their next
role and be just as unhappy there or possibly even
worse at least where they are now, it's the devil
they know.
Speaker 1 (06:16):
And it's like the grass is browner on the other side.
Speaker 3 (06:18):
Yes, yes, And what's actually sometimes worse is if you
always think it the grass is greener, and you go
about your job, start's the wrong way, and now you're
hopping from terrible job to terrible job, and so what
needs to be the beginning of all this is getting
extremely clear about what is your next career step. I
talk in the book about how I did a survey
(06:40):
out to thousands and thousands of people in my audience,
and the vast majority of people responded that the way
that they chose their career was simply because they stumbled
into it. And that is the way people are treating
their careers. They are stumbling through it arguably the most
important decision you could make, because it impacts your finances,
(07:02):
your emotion, your family life, all of it. And we
are just choosing to not choose. And so that is
one of the things I talk a lot about with
the job shopping strategy is let's take deliberate action to
reevaluate what's your right next career step and not be
intimidated by the fact that there might be a little
(07:23):
bit of work to reconfigure your past experience or you know,
fill in some skill gaps, but put yourself on a
trajectory that helps fulfill you, that meets your needs and
values in that career path, and also gets you paid well.
Speaker 1 (07:38):
I like that.
Speaker 2 (07:39):
Yeah, I like how you said it's going to take
a little bit of work, because there are some different
myths that are held by folks who are looking for
a job, and a lot of times folks do think
it's easier just to aim lower, to not set their
sites super high. Can you share some of the other
myths that folks get hung up on?
Speaker 3 (07:56):
Absolutely right, you aiming lower not a great move. If
people think that it's easier to land a job below
your level, it's actually actually easier to land a job
that's a bit higher than your level. Another myth that
people fall victim to is they think that additional certifications
and degrees will help them stand out, which you know,
(08:18):
I mean, so many people are completely burdened by student
loans and all these things. These false promises that these
MBA programs give you that somehow you're going to go
through this program and your career is going to transform,
and that's what I'm seeing time and time again, is
not happening. Now. Of course, get the education, you need
(08:40):
to check the box on your application that you have it.
But I think the difference here is that people think
that when they're struggling to stand out, that that will
make them stand out and it's not a way to
stand out. It is a baseline qualification. It's really your
relationships and your expertise that will help you to stand out.
Speaker 1 (09:05):
So those are a few myths. Talk to me about
maybe some of the what you might call the boomer
advice or something like like the old school advice on
the job hunting front that maybe made sense like decades ago,
but just doesn't make sense in today's job search market.
Like what have you heard people say and you just
(09:27):
like cringe when you hear that advice?
Speaker 3 (09:29):
Oh my gosh. Well, the thing that you'll often hear
from friends and family members if you're struggling your job search,
they'll say, just keep going, keep being consistent, keep applying.
And you should absolutely can continue putting effort into your
job search. But if you are not trying a different approach,
(09:52):
then you are you're wasting your time. Really, having a
high volume job search is actually not the answer to
lending more job offers. The book is full of these
examples as well as just in general with my clients
is that they'll focus on a handful of opportunities, let
fewer than ten maybe, and they'll land interviews at most
(10:16):
of them, and then Land offers at a handful of
those and this is the approach that actually works because
what's happened is that because anyone can apply to jobs
these days, these job boards are completely overrunned with noise,
just absolute noise, and it's now the way to stand
(10:39):
out is to be more focused, is to go one
step above. And that's a big part of the job
shopper strategy is to instead of just blasting out your
information out there and using all these dumb buzzwords that
is very that we were all taught and we're writing
our resumes of seasoned, professional, collaborative, creative, all those those things.
(11:00):
Moving away from that getting highly practical and making your
resume and your LinkedIn profile like sales pages instead of
Wikipedia pages.
Speaker 2 (11:09):
It's fascinating because like when you do fill out an
online application, like it does feel like that you just
highlighted how you're wasting your time essentially, But when you
do that, it's something that you can check like on
your to do list, right, like that's something I can
cross out. It feels like a productive endeavor. But then
you don't actually hear back and you have worked in
HR so like can I guess, can you give us
(11:30):
like a little peak behind the curtain as to what's
going on?
Speaker 1 (11:32):
Is it truly?
Speaker 2 (11:33):
Because there are just so many applicants out there, and
just the in that case, the numbers aren't in your favor.
Speaker 3 (11:40):
Right, So some of these job boards will actually tell
you how many people have applied to these roles, and
you'll see within hours there's often hundreds of applications and
sounds demoralizing.
Speaker 1 (11:51):
Jesus.
Speaker 3 (11:51):
Yes, it's extremely demoralizing. And what's just as demoralizing in
a lot of ways is if you were the employer,
you look at the applications you've gotten and you can
tell these people did not read the job description, They
have no idea who your company is. They often their
qualifications aren't even remotely related to the role they're going for.
(12:14):
So what's upsetting about that is that all of this
noise is now burying the candidates who genuinely wanted the
opportunity and are well qualified. So what does the employer do.
They turn to smaller stacks. We'll call it like virtual stacks, right,
So a stack of people who their employees have said, hey,
(12:36):
I know this person, check out their resume, or the
stack of resumes that a recruiter collected from finding people
on LinkedIn or from their own database. So they go
to these other stacks because that takes them much less time,
it's much more time efficient. And so your goal in
the job search is to get into one of those
(12:58):
smaller stacks.
Speaker 1 (13:00):
Yeah, so the resume gets you in the fat stack.
They're just essentially casting into the garbage bin instead of
getting you in the short stack where you're actually being considered.
In the book, you write that it's one thing to
have the right skills, but having an excellent strategy to
get noticed is what unlocks incredible opportunity. And like you
just said a second ago, you said, make your resume
(13:22):
and your LinkedIn your sales page instead of a Wikipedia page.
So can you kind of dial in on that a
little bit more, what that looks like and how you
can stand out so that you can get noticed in
some of those smaller stacks instead of like just being
the habitual resume seminter.
Speaker 3 (13:37):
So what we were taught to do is to create
our resume of our greatest accomplishments, right, Yeah, that was
how I was taught of write down all the coolest
things you've done, and that is the way our resumes
often show up, and it's called autobiography syndrome, where we
(13:58):
are sharing our life story on our resumes and thinking
that people want to see a chronicled, accurate picture of
what we've done in the past. Companies don't actually want
to know your background and your best accomplishments. What they
do want to know is can you solve our problems?
(14:22):
Can you achieve what we want? And what happens is
I created a formula called the Glory formula, which is
detailed in Reversus Search, And what that formula does is
that when you are building out your resume and LinkedIn profile,
you don't start with your experience. You start with what
(14:45):
the company's asking for. So imagine building out your entire
LinkedIn profile, your entire resume based on what a company's
asking for. Suddenly all of your experience shrinks because you know,
even though I I know that you're being a door
to door salesman helped to cultivate your charisma, and then
(15:06):
the other job of you know, working in customer success
helped you be resilient, blah blah blah. Right, you have
all those things, but you're going for a project manager
role like tell me how you'd be a great project manager.
Those are the things that we often get distracted about.
So you need to start with the opportunity first, build
all of your assets back from that as if you
(15:26):
are a product, you are a product. You are a
someone selling your services, and too often we have this
autobiography syndrome where we feel like we have to tell
the tale of our past.
Speaker 1 (15:39):
So does I mean does that literally mean?
Speaker 2 (15:41):
So practically speaking, and you spend and you've got a
lot of awesome resources on how to flesh out your
LinkedIn profile? Does that literally mean going in there and
changing tailoring I guess some of your experience to the
position that you're looking to land, even if it means
kind of like, you know what, I used to highlight
this sort of a plishment, but instead I'm gonna let's
(16:02):
just tweak it a little bit, using maybe the verbiage
that my potential hopeful new employer that they're looking for.
Speaker 1 (16:09):
Is that what that looks like?
Speaker 3 (16:10):
Right? Yes? So to give you a super practical example,
let's say let's say someone is an executive assistant and
they're looking to move into a social media marketing role.
Literally one hundred percent on their resume on the LinkedIn
of the bullets under executive assistant, Like, let's say that
(16:30):
only ten percent of the time they help the marketing
team with scheduling posts or you know, write helping to
write emails either internally or externally, whatever is that's relevant
to this role. Even that's if that's just ten percent
of the time that they spent in that job, that
is going to make up one hundred percent of their
bullets on their resume and on their LinkedIn. And I
(16:53):
need people to start making this shift because it feels
so weird to them because they're thinking, oh, no, but
my best accomplishment was when I did X. Okay, I
know that those super impressive, but that doesn't have to
do with where you're going next, and so that is
the shift you need to make.
Speaker 2 (17:08):
That's interesting, I mean, do you not think that there
should be any mention of like previously it's like, all right,
I had five to ten bullet points of like my
greatest hits basically, and instead you're saying, you know, like
essentially to dial that back to zero, Like does it
not make sense to like include just like at least
one bullet point that mentions that almost as like a
launching point if they're looking for maybe somebody that's a
(17:30):
little more well rounded or just a little bit I
don't know. I feel like there could be some depth
that could be appreciated by a potential employer there.
Speaker 3 (17:37):
Potentially, and I wouldn't discount that, and maybe it would
be one of the later bullets. And the bottom line is,
too often I'll work with clients where I'll say why
is this bullet here? And they will kind of go
off on this several paragraph long explanation of well, because
I know that they work with these types of clients,
(17:59):
then if they have this type of thing and they
need me to do this type of thing, like, hopefully
that will imply that I'm actually good at this type
of communication. And the bottom line is people are not
reading your entire resume, or if they're even reading it,
they're reading it very quickly. So you need to spell
things out so clearly to where they are using little
to no brain power to understand that you are the
(18:20):
perfect fit. So if you are using some kind of like,
you know, vague implied I could be really good at this,
you know, because of that, You're likely going to lose them.
Speaker 2 (18:31):
Yeahcha, Okay, so less Nancy Drew and more just like
like literally connecting the dots for them.
Speaker 1 (18:36):
Yes, yes, Okay, tell me about the importance of LinkedIn,
Like is LinkedIn kind of the holy grail that people
should be spending a lot more of their time focused
on when it comes to finding a job. Is that
essentially the place that people should put the bulk of
their efforts if they're kind of wanting to enter into
this job shopping realm.
Speaker 3 (18:57):
So the majority of the professals I help are in
the corporate world. There are some industries and professions that
aren't on LinkedIn as much. I think about education, I
think about government, like those types of even though I
do help a lot of people in those industries as well.
I'm saying that on LinkedIn, they're not sourcing, They're not
(19:21):
finding as many of their candidates through the actual platform.
So I do want to preface that depending on your career,
it's more or less important. But if you are in
the corporate world, it is one hundred percent imperative that
you are discoverable on LinkedIn, and your ability to harness
(19:42):
LinkedIn for everything it has to offer can completely transform
the trajectory of your career and your ability to be
a job shopper where the second something goes awry in
your job or you're not convinced that it is a
great next move, you then are able to quickly PI
it and use LinkedIn and all the inbound opportunities. You
(20:04):
have to be in control.
Speaker 1 (20:06):
That makes sense.
Speaker 2 (20:07):
Yeah, that's a good question coming from somebody who's completely
self employed, uh having Yeah, your LinkedIn profile sucks, man,
I mean, I know it does. Like I always wonder
if it's better for me just to completely delete it
so it doesn't exist because I don't even know my password,
Like I have not logged on. I have been personally
self employed for like decades now.
Speaker 1 (20:25):
I'd be worried. I'd be worried if you dusted years
off and it's started looking real nice. I'd like where
you're going, buddy, even slove a boy there for a minute.
Speaker 2 (20:32):
But we're gonna take a quick break and we're gonna
continue talking about some of these like personal on a
micro level, the steps that you can take to get
the job you want.
Speaker 1 (20:41):
We'll get to that and more right after this. All right,
we're back to the break. We're still talking with Madeline
Man talking about getting the job you want, and let's
say you haven't kind of updated your job job searching
philosophy in many, many years. This is the right episode
(21:05):
for you to listen to. Matt. I think some people,
let's say they happened in their career ten, twelve, fifteen years.
It's one of those things like we don't apply for
a job very often, and so we forget how to
do it. So that's why I think this is helpful. Madelin.
I'm curious to hear how to do different economic climates
impact job hunter's job seekers because post COVID, I think
of that that was like a job hunter's dream. Yes,
(21:28):
it was like you almost didn't have to be good
at it because there were just so many job opportunities
because there was more supply of jobs and there was
demand for those jobs. But that has slowly changed. How
do you think about the job climate and then how
job searcher should you know that should impact how they
go into that climate.
Speaker 3 (21:49):
What's happening in this current climate, which I would characterize
as more of an employer's market, and I don't say
that lightly, truly, all the signs have been appointing to
it being an employer's market. And what you have to
realize in this type of climate is companies are worried
(22:12):
about making the wrong higher. They're hiring less and with
each person they hire, they are afraid of putting on
an offer to someone who's not going to work out
because they're trying to watch their bottom line.
Speaker 1 (22:26):
Yeah, and the stakes are higher that they have folks.
Speaker 3 (22:29):
Are higher, and they've been burned and they've already had
to lay off their teams and so they just they
don't want anything else to be a shakeup. And so
what job seekers are seeing is that they're getting to
the end of these interview processes and they're not losing
to anyone. They're losing to the company simply not hiring.
And what's happening here is the job seekers. And I'm
(22:53):
going to put it on the job seekers for this
moment because I like I like it when you know,
the folks in my audience take ownership of It's on
us to reduce the risk that we are posing to
the company. How do you do that? How do you
make it so that the company is super confident that
you are going to be the right person, You're going
(23:14):
to be a high performer. What you do is you
give them almost like a free trial, the way we
have free trial an app, the way we take a
sip of wine to try it before we buy the bottle,
the way we try a yoga class before we buy
a full month pass. You need to bring that kind
(23:34):
of energy into the interview process because these interviewers are
probably not going to ask you very good questions. They're
not going to unearth the best things about you. So
what my strategies teach is actually to go into interviews
with a message, with a mission, and to give them
certain information and also show them how you work through
(23:57):
throughout the entire process, so that the risk profile on
you goes down. Even if you are a career changer,
because a lot of people say, well, I'm a risky
hire because I'm coming from a different industry or a
different profession. This works even in that case, but it's
about you taking those extra steps versus sitting patiently just
(24:18):
answering the questions that companies give you and hoping your
answers are adequate.
Speaker 1 (24:23):
Yeah, No, I like that. I'm curious you highlighted maybe
this scenario where you don't get the job through no
faults of your own, but just because the company says,
I don't know, we're reticent to hire or onboard anybody else.
Right now, what if you do get turned down for
a job that you were really excited about and not
(24:43):
even because you lost out to somebody else, do you
recommend that people stay in touch with that employer, stay
in touch with the hiring manager maybe that they were
in contact with. Is that a way to kind of
broaden your network and maybe be the first person on
their call list if something does open up, if they
really are in need.
Speaker 3 (25:01):
This is another job shopper mentality, which job shopping is
is highly positive and optimistic in that if a company
interviews you, that means they see your value and you're
now building relationships with them and they really like you.
A lot of us feel so hurt when we get
through two, three, even four rounds of interviews and they
(25:23):
don't pick us, and they think, oh, they don't like us, Well,
what I just heard is they spent four plus hours
getting to know you. That means that they actually do
like you. And so what is so important is to
first of all, the first thing you want to do
is respond to the rejection positively. You don't realize how
(25:46):
important this is, and me, as a human resources professional
being on the receiving end of thousands of responses to rejections,
most people can't handle it. Most people are rude or
they don't say anything. And so if you say, I
completely understand, thank you. This has been such a wonderful process.
I've loved getting to know about your company. I will
(26:07):
keep a lookout for other opportunities, should another one better
fit my skill set, and I'd love to stay in touch.
And that because because when you show your character is
not in the good times. It's not when the interviews
are great, it's when things go wrong. And so now
they're like, oops, we just missed out on someone who's
a high integrity person who I want to work in
(26:28):
the trenches with because they have a really great outlook
on rejection, then you want to stay in touch. You
want to you know, maybe it's every every month or so, Hey,
just checking in. I want to let you know I'm
still on the lookout for opportunities. No need to respond,
but should anything open up, like, let me know I'm
(26:48):
still very interested. You know, little little follow ups like
this can absolutely change the game. I have been dubbed
the comeback coach because so many of my clients land
jobs at companies that have previously rejected them.
Speaker 2 (27:03):
Huh yeah, it's like this, It's like a tight little
crack that you can get your foot in, and people
just overlook that.
Speaker 1 (27:09):
But it's like, actually that is right there, Like that
is the path to land this job.
Speaker 2 (27:13):
I think sometimes folks are not realizing or they're missing
out on the fact that those interactions like that is
a form of networking. It's a form of relationship building.
And in your book you write about how so many
folks they actually hate what they consider to be networking,
and specifically because it's inauthentic, but like in reality, maybe
they're just doing it all wrong. So, like, how would
(27:34):
you recommend for job shoppers out there to approach I
guess more traditional networking.
Speaker 3 (27:40):
Networking is the fast way to land jobs, full stop,
and people need to start getting more comfortable with it
because you need to measure your job search in interactions,
not applications, and so simple ways that that can be
is doing something like asking someone of this or that question, right,
(28:00):
So it could be just reaching out to someone you
already know or a new person you look at what
is their past, just to make sure you can get
a bit of context about some things that they might know,
and then you ask them a one sentence question in email.
So I might email, you know, hey, Matt and Joel,
(28:22):
I'm thinking about starting my own podcast. I was thinking
about either using riverside or X technology. Which one do
you think is better to record my podcast on? Thanks?
You know, and maybe just maybe your answer is just
two sentences back to me. But now we are starting conversation,
and then I can then email you back in a
(28:43):
few weeks and say, hey, guys, I went with your
recommendation to use riverside and blah blah blah. Right, and
so just little ways like that and what I think
will happen and let me know because I use y'all
as an example. But the person on the other end
feels good about helping you. They're like, wow, we just
held madelin make her decision. It feels good. And also
(29:05):
it took you all of thirty seconds to maybe respond.
So just finding ways like that to build relationships with
folks and there I have so many different strategies on this,
but even just little things like that, when I position
networking that way to people that go, oh, I think
I might be overthinking it.
Speaker 1 (29:25):
Yeah, you think it has to be this like massive
and there, like we have to go get lunch together,
But it doesn't have to be. That can be a
quick email.
Speaker 2 (29:31):
Like what I hear you saying there is like looking
for an ability for whoever you're talking to to provide value.
Speaker 1 (29:38):
But I mean there's a way to do that in
reverse as well.
Speaker 2 (29:40):
Right where you're kind of I don't know either, maybe
making introduction with some other folks. It just kind of
I like what you said though, Like just even the
quick email, it kind of opens channels of conversation for
who knows what to then take place after.
Speaker 3 (29:54):
That, Right, and you mentioned doing the reverse of providing that.
So a concept I deep dive into pretty deeply in
reverse a search is this concept called sixty seconds of value.
So it goes against this idea that so many of
us think that in order to build relationships we need
(30:15):
to add a tremendous amount of value to someone. We
need to put in minutes or even hours of work
or as you mentioned earlier, like show up to a
coffee meeting and talk to them for ninety minutes or
whatever it is. But if you just add sixty seconds
of value. It can it can really make a big deal.
Like I you know, I could. I could even send
(30:37):
a different email where I send it to y'all where
I say, hey, I'm I'm I'm reaching out to people
who have a financial focused podcasts and like, what's your
number one money tip for someone who's been laid off
or something like that, right, And and you know it's
it's it's sixty seconds of value because I'm sending this
(30:57):
quick email, You're giving me that quote and now I'm
putting it into an article or LinkedIn post or something
like that where you are getting further promoted and it's
just a met and then now I get to meet you. Guys,
get to now we have a thread going where there's
this recip hop prosody, we have a relationship started. And
so little things like that that you can think of
can actually make a huge difference in starting a relationship
(31:20):
off with the right foot.
Speaker 1 (31:22):
Yeah, I feel like imposter syndrome is like rears at
sugglyhead when we're talking about looking for jobs, Like you
look at the qualifications and you're like, I don't live
up to that, or there's like a bunch of metrics
and you're like, oh, I fall shortened like two of
those metrics, so I shouldn't even try. How much does
that really hurt people when they're looking for jobs? And
(31:45):
what do you think about when people look at the
required experience, they're like, I don't quite meet the qualifications.
Should they apply anyway?
Speaker 3 (31:51):
It is such a normal experience to feel overqualified for
so many roles and then feel underqualified for the rest
of them, and you're just in the middle thinking what
the heck do I do now? As we alluded to
in the beginning, it is a bit easier to land
a job that's a step higher. So what you have
to realize is that job descriptions are wishless. When I
(32:16):
worked in human resources, so often I would work together
with a hiring manager to put together's job description, and
I would say, you're expecting someone to have all of
these skills and all this experience, and they say absolutely, like,
this is what we're looking for. And then days and
weeks go by and we find some people, but the
(32:39):
hiring manager starts to come to realize that they are
looking for a purple squirrel, and so what they do
is they start to pare down those expectations or in
the interview, once they start talking, they're like, Okay, I
understand that you don't have exactly this industry experience, but
I understand the transferable and so what people overestimate how
much the higher manager ultimately is asking for, especially once
(33:03):
you get a little bit farther, once they've gone through
several interviews and they realize, oh, okay, what I'm asking
for is a little bit a little bit ridiculous, and
so definitely still go for their role even if you're underqualified,
and that could sometimes work in your favor because companies
can see you as more easily retainable because they don't
(33:24):
think you're going to get bored quickly and leave and
find to find that better job.
Speaker 1 (33:28):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (33:29):
No, I think it's up to you as the candidate
to communicate that well during the interview, like that is
what should be going on there, even.
Speaker 1 (33:36):
If you aren't fully qualified.
Speaker 2 (33:39):
And speaking of interviewing, like you offer a ton of
just great practical advice when it comes to interviews up
on your YouTube channel as well. But what are some
of the other major mistakes that you've seen folks make
when they're being interviewed.
Speaker 3 (33:53):
When they're being interviewed. There's a few things. One of
them that is I'm being so often is because you're
viewing interviews as you are, you know, subservient to the interviewer.
You are, you are the one who is just lucky
that they even deign to call you. That you are
(34:14):
often a little bit too formal in the interviews, you're
a little bit too rehearsed. And I I, you know,
I have a system of how to prepare for interviews,
which actually is probably a lot shorter than what most people.
A lot of people actually kind of over prepare for interviews,
but one of the key components is to not only
(34:34):
you know, be competent, but if you are sounding rehearsed
or stilted, these people are looking to hire a coworker,
so it sets off these alarms in their head. And
it's all very deeply psychological of I can't trust this person.
I worry they're living. Yes, I don't, I don't know
who they are they are. Also, I talk a lot
(34:57):
about about in the book about how to not be
so a reable in interviews, which at first sounds a
little strange because I do talk a lot about being
highly positive in every step of the job search, but
you should come in with a perspective. If you are
a little bit too amenable to everything, Oh yeah, I
can do anything. Yeah, oh no, none of it bothers me.
People are going to leave that interview saying I didn't
(35:18):
get to know them. I don't I'm not sure how
they feel about these things. And that is something I'm
seeing for so many people, is that it's sending the
wrong signals. And I said, you know, they have to
be able to trust you, because they're taking a risk
on you if they don't feel like they actually like you.
Because likability is a huge part of landing the job,
(35:39):
you're not getting it.
Speaker 1 (35:40):
Yeah, the culture fit it matters too, And so do
you have any suggestions on kind of researching the company's
culture and speaking to that inside of the interview, because
I think oftentimes it's the work experience, but on top
of that, they want to make sure that you're going
to work well on the team.
Speaker 3 (35:57):
So doing informational interviews before an interview is fabulous to
talk to employees. But if you already have an interview booked,
I would say use your interviews as a lot of
the research because in the reading glass door reviews, reading
blog posts about the company. I do think it is.
(36:18):
It is helpful, but the most, the most the best
part there is is you bringing up that you did
that research and you mentioning specific things that the company
did to show you did your research. That's usually why
it's so valuable. It's not as valuable necessarily to position
yourself the right way because you really have to ask
the right questions in the interview that will help you
(36:41):
see what they're looking for. And I'll give you an example,
like you could ask you could ask the recruiter in
your first interview of okay, you know, how how has
this how's the search been going? And say well, yeah,
I mean this this role has been open for for
two months now, where we've been looking long and hard
for this, And you say, say, oh, well, what to
(37:01):
have a lot of the candidates been missing that you're
still really looking for, and they will spill all the
things that you need to now position yourself as for
the rest of that interview and your future interviews.
Speaker 1 (37:12):
So like giving you the game plan, the blueprint for
you to go out there and just like hit a
home run.
Speaker 3 (37:17):
They will one hundred percent give you the blueprint. Another
great question to ask is yeah, I mean you obviously
there's tons of people who are probably qualified for this role,
but what would make someone a high performer in this job?
And again, you might see them talk about things that
are different or slightly differently emphasized than the job description.
(37:42):
When you actually hear them say it, you go bingo,
That's how I'm going to position myself. So it's really
a lot of this. Yes, it could come from research,
but more than research, I want you to have these
questions locked and loaded and then your reaction to how
you're going to use that information. It can be absolutely
lethal if you are thinking the right way about how
(38:04):
you're going to use it.
Speaker 1 (38:05):
Nice. We got a few more questions to get to
you with you, Madeline. We specifically want to talk about negotiating,
and then we also want to talk about perpetual job shopping.
Is that a smart idea? We'll get to that and
more right after this.
Speaker 2 (38:24):
If we are back from the break talking with career
coach Madeline Mayn and we just kind of covered some
of the different things to do. I guess Madeline during
the interview process, Let's say the interview goes incredibly well,
how then should the job shopper think about negotiating pay
because in the book you call it a collaborative process,
(38:45):
so specifically, what does that look like.
Speaker 3 (38:47):
There's a lot of debate out there about when should
you talk about money and all of that. Based on
my experience in human resources and for helping thousands of
people negotiate their salaries, your biggest moment of power is
when they have said we want you okay, because at
(39:07):
that point they know as much as they can about
your value. If you've put your price on your salary
and all of that early on in the process, I
think that could be helpful to just kind of cut
off the conversation if the numbers are way too far apart,
which I completely understand that's helpful, but they don't know
your value at that point. If they see a big
(39:29):
price tag and they say, well, we can't afford that,
they might pass on you. But if they've gotten to
the finish line, they've fallen in love with you. They're
exhausted from this interview process. You are the answer to
it all being over, and you say, hey, but I
want a bit more money, They're going to say, yeah,
just give her the extra fifteen K and let's move
on with our lives. We love her. So that's the
(39:52):
first thing is to you know, at least you know,
try to make what you are asking for as late
in the process as possible so that they can line
it up with your value versus just having sticker shock.
And second, really stating what you want. And then and
(40:13):
often I like to use a number that if you're
going to say a range or even ask for a number,
always ask for something that's above what you would actually
what is actually above what is your bottom? Too often
people will negotiate and they will literally they will actually
put the bottom of the range as the bottom. And unfortunately,
(40:34):
companies will often give you whatever is the lowest number
you said, or even below that. Like if they offered
you two hundred thousand and used to ask for two
hundred and twenty thousand, maybe they give you two hundred
and ten thousand, Right, So you need to make sure
that whatever is that number that you're saying, that it
is above what you'd be excited to accept.
Speaker 1 (40:59):
Yeah, and then you're feeling pot committed at that point
in time too, You're like, I've gone through this whole process,
I guess I'll just take the offer, whereas if you
negotiated in a smarter manner, you could have positioned yourself
better to get.
Speaker 2 (41:10):
Paid more, because in reality, you're probably staying to yourself. Well,
I did say that number, I did see that dollar amount,
and so it's just like, well, shoot, maybe I shouldn't
have said that. Yeah, it's hard to go back on
words on the truth that you've already put out there
in the universe. Yeah, Mat, I'm curious. Should do you
think job shopping should be a perpetual thing? Is this
something where like, oh I got laid off and now
it's time for me to update all this in my
(41:31):
LinkedIn and my resume and to start the job shopping,
you know, going in that direction? Or or is this
one of those things that should be done on an
ongoing basis. Should we be honing our online presence in
our personal brand even when we have a job, even
if we love that job.
Speaker 3 (41:46):
The thing that people often don't think about, especially in
the good times, is they think, you know, to go
back with the example is Okay, I have a job
where I get paid two hundred thousand dollars a year,
But do you if you get laid off within six
months You're not making two hundred thousand dollars that year
unless you land another job within a few weeks or months,
(42:08):
and or you have a decent amount of severance or whatnot,
And so people are not factoring that into their annual
compensation of I need to have if I need to
make a certain amount of money a year, do I
am able to take several months off with no salary,
or also am if I'm not able to or I
(42:29):
don't want to do I have the ability to at
the drop of a hat get more opportunities and more offers.
And the thing about maintaining your job shopper status is
it doesn't take that much effort. You can passively get
opportunities coming to you for the rest of your career
while times are good, so that should anything go awry,
(42:50):
you are immediately thrust into interview processes and considering offers.
And so, yes, there is ongoing maintenance, and that is
something I definitely dive in deeply into the book of
how to keep it going. And there is a bit
of startup effort to start moving in the direction of
being a job shopper, but the maintenance, and I've been
(43:10):
doing this for enough years too. I've been able to
track my clients over years of promotions and years of
moving companies, and they say that every time they move jobs,
it's just easier and easier because that foundation is built,
but it does need to be maintained.
Speaker 1 (43:26):
That makes sense though, too.
Speaker 2 (43:27):
I mean it's sort of like Joel at the earlier
on you were talking about how looking for a job,
applying for a job, it's not something that we do
very often. It makes me think about moving. And if
you've only ever moved once in your entire life, it's
a big stinking deal. It's difficult the logistics kind of
wrapping your head around it. But if you're used to moving,
if it's something that you've done like every few years.
Speaker 1 (43:47):
Like my little sister who moves almost every year.
Speaker 2 (43:49):
Who get better at it In a similar way. I
think instead of just moving where you lay your head,
it's moving where you park your butt during the day
while you're sitting there at the computer. I think the
better you get at looking for some of those portunities
makes a ton of sense. What's your advice for how
often you can move to a different company before it
starts harming your career? Because I feel like this is
something that folks were doing a lot, especially back during
(44:11):
the pandemic. Offers were, you know, flying up folks left
and right. Do you feel like that that's leveled out
some and kind of what's the timeframe that you think
folks should maybe perhaps even like limit themselves to job hopping.
Speaker 3 (44:26):
It does depend on mainly two factors. One is what
is your profession. The more in demand your profession is,
the more job hopping won't impact you as much because
you know companies really need you and they will be
willing to look past that. The second one is how
far along are you in your career. If you are,
(44:48):
you know, first five to seven years in your career
and you hop to a few different places because you're
trying to figure out what you want to do, companies
are like, yes, of course, figuring out what you're going
to do, that makes total sense. But as we start
to move later into our career and we're managing people
now and we're setting business strategy, companies are looking for
(45:12):
people who are going to see things through from start
to finish and to build a reputation. And personally, I'm
someone who really sees that, Yeah, more of job hopping
is like under two years is kind of like where
where you're kind of starting to get job hopping territory.
When you get to three and four years, I would say,
(45:34):
that's just like a solid tenure and if you go,
if you stay for like more than five, it's like WHOA,
You've been at the company forever. So at least that's
and it differs for different industries, of course, but if
you are kind of viewing each job like you are,
like you would at least of like, you know, enrolling
(45:55):
in a four year college program or something like that,
as you're getting more advanced in your career, it is
really good to stay there for at least that amount
of time or possibly even longer, because the things that
that can do for your career, of the depth of
the relationships, the quality of the accomplishments, the reputation that
you can build can be pretty unparalleled. So it really
(46:18):
is a personal decision, but I would caution you against
job hopping too much once you get later in your career.
Speaker 1 (46:26):
Wonderful, Madeline, so much great information. Thank you so much
for taking the time to join us today. Where can
how to Money listeners find out more about you and
more about your book? That's coming out in just a
few days.
Speaker 3 (46:37):
Absolutely, you can find it at reverseth search dot com
and you can find me as Madelineman on LinkedIn, self
Made Millennial on YouTube and Madeline man is my website
as well.
Speaker 2 (46:51):
Awesome, Madelin, Thank you so much for talking with us today.
Speaker 1 (46:54):
Thank you all right, Matt. That was such a good conversation,
so much good information. And again, if you don't apply
for jobs regularly, which most people don't.
Speaker 2 (47:05):
I definitely haven't a long long time, you better you
better not have. Then I wonder if that's why, Okay,
let's be honest, is that a part of why a
lot of what her message, a lot of what her
message contained, why it stood out to us because of
the fact that this isn't a space that you and
I were in that were walking around a whole lot, right,
Like we always were talking about investing, We're always talking
about debt, student loans, retirement, all of these like that's
(47:27):
our space. But when it comes to jobs and trying
to you know, launch a new career, trying to get
a new job.
Speaker 1 (47:34):
Those topics are a little bit more foreign to us. Yeah,
but I think that's also just true for everyone out
there listening or for most people are like, I don't
remember the last time I applied for a job, unless
you are a job operator. And I bet there are
people out there listening who are like, but I'd like
to I don't really like where I'm at. I would
like to make more money. I'd like to pivot in
my career to do something a little more interesting or enjoyable. So, so,
what was your big takeaway from this combo of Madeline?
Speaker 2 (47:55):
So? A lot of what she said stood out to me.
I've actually I took a ton of notes, but cifically
when she was talking about during the interview process, the
questions that you can ask by being a little bit inquisitive,
you can glean a ton of information that wasn't on.
Speaker 1 (48:10):
The job listing.
Speaker 2 (48:11):
Uh, it's like inception. It may yeah, it's I don't know.
It's like actually, it's like actually reading the tea leaves.
It's like, Okay, the job posting said that you're looking
for this, But just from talking with you for five
minutes the conversation before the conversation, I've learned that like
that you have emotionally tied yourself to this part of
what it is that you're looking for.
Speaker 1 (48:29):
I like how she talked through that. She's just like,
they'll totally spill exactly what it.
Speaker 2 (48:34):
Is that they're looking for, and your ability to tailor
your responses with that in mind, not that you're lying,
not that you're being deceitful, but your ability to highlight
how you are going to fit perfectly squarely in this square.
Speaker 1 (48:47):
You know your square peg.
Speaker 2 (48:48):
You're being a tech Yes, yeah, I think that's I
think that's brilliant. So what she said that, whether it's
that or whether it's Hey, what about some of the
other other candidates who have you who have you talked to?
You know, like, what have they missed? Well, let's not
be negative, not what are they missing, but what would
the ideal canidate have? And again, it gives you some
of that information that will allow yourself to be that
will allow you to put yourself in the best light.
Speaker 1 (49:09):
That was my big takeaway. How about you? There are
a million things I could say in response to that,
but I think when it boils down to it, she said,
you are a product. Sell yourself and I was like, man,
that's true, and we're so hesitant, and I think there's
a difference. You can be humble and sell yourself. I
think sometimes people think that it's one or the other.
You're a cocky, prideful persons jerk trying to sell yourself.
(49:33):
But I think you can do it with humility, like
in a reasonable way. And she outlined actually a bunch
of tangible ways to do that in the job searching
or the job shopping process. So don't be afraid to
sell yourself, don't be afraid to talk about the things
that you can help that company with. You want to
be the solution. You want to be the advil to
(49:56):
that pain point right that they're experiencing. And if you
or maybe just the generic ibuprofen, right, mac is, let's
be honest, that will cost too much. But you have
the ability to do that for an employer. And if
you don't sell yourself, if you're unwilling to kind of
be a little more forthcoming about what you have to offer,
there's a chance you're gonna get lost in the shuffle
(50:18):
of a bunch of other people who want that same position.
You do totally.
Speaker 2 (50:22):
And there's a trick too, of doing that without being
super agreeable. Where Like you don't want to be so
polished that there's no grit, there's nothing there for the
interview were to lash Onto.
Speaker 1 (50:32):
You want to be like, well, I like that, but
you ever thought about it like this. Yeah, yeah, the
ability to provide your own ideas as well. The beer
you and I enjoyed it today was called a I
don't know, I've never seen this word before. I think
it's called a phonio or fanio rising. It's an ancient
West Africa super grain. Oh okay, that's not the kind
of beer it is. I guess it's made with an
ancient West African super grain. See. Oh on the back,
(50:55):
it's a pale air. It's a pale ale by Brooklyn Brewery,
a limited release. You think so this was like a
weedy pale ale. Yeah, it was, Yeah, totally, which I appreciate,
which gives it just like a little more body.
Speaker 2 (51:08):
I think they're trying to highlight this bettermouthfeel, this ancient
grain or whatever.
Speaker 1 (51:12):
But it's interesting, yeah, because so the hops kind of
took a back seat in this. I totally agree.
Speaker 2 (51:15):
And and it's wake was certainly the sort of weedy backbone.
But the first thing I noticed that it was just
the floral bouquet like it had and it says, it's
they want you to pull out fruity and citrus notes,
but I pulled out peachee notes.
Speaker 1 (51:29):
To me, it had like serious peachee vibes going on.
Really enjoyed it. Glad you know I got to share
it today. Peaches. I don't think there were actually any
peaches made put into this beer. No, I don't think so.
Peach beers are phenomenal, like peach sours, the pesh oh,
they're one of the top. To me, they're one of
the best roots to put in. It was a lot
for me.
Speaker 2 (51:47):
It's blueberry. You know, I love blueberry sours. I think
raspberries blueberry sour. Yeah, raspberries a number one, cherries a
number two. Peaches of three, I forget about cherry. Yeah, no,
cherry's got to.
Speaker 1 (51:55):
Be number one. Cherries are so perfect for me.
Speaker 2 (51:57):
Right, So, I guess we need to have some barely
hours come back to your stal soon. It's been a minute,
but you can find our show us up on the
website at howtomoney dot com. We'll make sure to link
to some of Madeline's different resources where it is that
you can buy her book that comes out next week,
which is called Reverse the search.
Speaker 1 (52:13):
It's a good one and uh, all right, buddy, that's
gonna be it. So until next time, best friends out,
Best friends Out,
Welcome to Out of Money. I'm Joel, I'm Matt, and
today we're talking get in the Job you Want with
Madeline Mann.
Speaker 2 (00:25):
Yeah. So, Madeleine Man is an HR and recruiting leader.
She's the author of Reverse the Search, and she spun
her insulter knowledge of the hiring process into an award
winning career coaching empire called Self Made and Millennial, where
she has reached a ton of folks. And by the way,
her book, Reverse the Search it comes out next week
April first, so keep an.
Speaker 1 (00:45):
Eye out for that.
Speaker 2 (00:46):
Through her platform and coaching, Madeline works to turn job
seekers into job shoppers, enabling any professional out there to
land high paying job offers, with many of them even
landing roles at Competitive Tune five hundred companies. Basically, it
seems like we've been doing job hunting all wrong, and
we're going to talk about that today. She's been featured
over in The Journal, The Times, ABC News, She's got
(01:09):
over twenty four million views on YouTube, and we are
excited for her to now join us on our humble
little podcast. Madeline Mann, thank you for joining us.
Speaker 3 (01:18):
Hi, Matt and Joel, so good to be here.
Speaker 1 (01:20):
We're excited to have you, Madeline, so much to talk about,
specifically in regards to finding a great job and hopefully
making it easier than most people tend to make it.
But our first question to everyone who comes on the
show is what do you like to splurge on? Matt
and I spurgeon nice craft beer, but hey, it's okay
because we're doing the right thing. We're saving and investing
for our future. What is your splurge?
Speaker 3 (01:42):
So I'm not one who likes to splurge. But one
thing that I've done that I think people find kind
of ritzy or something that almost no one does, is
I have a stylist pick out nearly all of my clothes.
Speaker 1 (01:57):
That does sound fancy? It does Yep, that's not something
I've ever done.
Speaker 3 (02:01):
Yeah, I I I'm someone who loves color. I don't
have a black shirt in my closet. And I would
always buy clothes and I could never wear any of
them because none of them matched or I just was
bad at picking out things that looked good on me.
And so I invested in a stylist and now I
actually spend less money on clothes and all that because
(02:23):
they're everything matches, everything looks good on me. I like everything,
so I keep it longer, I wear it more. So
it's it's in the end. I do think it was
it's a very good investment where I'm saving money. But yes,
it is a little bit, uh, I a little boo.
I thought, Yeah, it's boushie. I thought a little silly
because it's like people wake up every day and just
dress themselves. Why can't I do that? But I can't.
Speaker 1 (02:46):
I appreciate that you're the opposite of Steve Jobs that
you I too. I think the sort of black turtleneck
on repeat, it's a little boring, Like there's like, I
don't know, jazz it up a little, but I'm curious.
What does it look like to have your own stylist?
Is this like an online relationship? Are they emailing you? Hey,
these are the fits, the specific outfits I would recommend
that you dress in. Are they like buying it and
(03:07):
shipping it to you? What are the details there?
Speaker 3 (03:10):
Right? So she is remote and yeah, she did a
full analysis based on photos of like what what are
the best looks for my body and all of that,
and the color palettes where every color will go together,
and yeah, as she just sends me all the links
of Hey, here are all the things you should buy,
and here's the sizing of everything you should buy, and
(03:30):
I just buy it myself.
Speaker 1 (03:31):
Super cool.
Speaker 2 (03:32):
Have you heard of these companies that exist that where
you get your colors done? They like put colors in
front of your face or whatever.
Speaker 1 (03:39):
So it, yes, is this a.
Speaker 2 (03:40):
Part of like what it is? As stylist does as well.
So is this this is something you believe in?
Speaker 3 (03:45):
Yes, she did that. She did that whole thing, except
we did it remotely with photos and all that she's
in Ireland?
Speaker 1 (03:50):
So is that just about what colors look best on you?
Is that? Is that what it is?
Speaker 3 (03:53):
Yeah? Yeah, okay, exactly.
Speaker 2 (03:55):
All right, So Joel just needs to wear more blue
to like make his eyes pop. Yeah, maybe what we
need to do. I think I need a consultant professional that. No, no, no,
I'm good enough, Joe, I got this. You're free at least, Madelin.
Why do you prefer the term job shopping? I've noticed
that right, Like, so instead of like job hunting job seeking,
you like to use the term job shopping. Why is
(04:17):
that the one that you often like.
Speaker 3 (04:19):
To use the most, Because so many people don't realize
that the job search is not just one where we
are beholden to employers where we hope that they deign
to give us attention. When I was working with clients
and transforming their confidence and their job search approach, I
realized that they started shopping around for opportunities, they started
(04:41):
meeting different employers, and the majority of their interview opportunities
did not come from them applying to these jobs and
looking for these jobs. The majority came from these companies saying, hey,
we found you, please interview with us. It came inbound.
And so once you start doing these strategies, you find
(05:02):
yourself that, Wow, it doesn't have to be this effortfull hunt,
but it can be more of a fun shopping experience
where you're shopping for your future, you're shopping for your
next career move.
Speaker 1 (05:13):
Yeah, I had backyard chickens. A couple of them died.
That's why I say had, But we'll get back to
having more again in the future. I think of like
when I watch them eat, they're kind of like pecking
at the ground, and lots of times they come up
with nothing or just dirt or something like that, And
I think that's what it feels like as a job hunter.
Sometimes like you're pecking aimlessly and then you get a
mouthful of dirt. I guess the smarter chickens, I guess.
(05:34):
So it's like, what a waste of my time. But like,
there are so many stats Battlin that reveal that a
lot of America workers in particular, they're kind of unhappy
right with the status quo. And maybe their their boss
is saying, ah, we're going to return to the office.
You need to come back in a few days a week,
and now they're even less happy. So in your experience,
why is it that people tend to avoid shopping for
(05:55):
jobs given how little satisfaction people seem to have with
their jobs.
Speaker 3 (05:59):
Well, the thing that people hit their heads against the
wall is is if they worry that they're going to
put themselves out in the job market, find their next
role and be just as unhappy there or possibly even
worse at least where they are now, it's the devil
they know.
Speaker 1 (06:16):
And it's like the grass is browner on the other side.
Speaker 3 (06:18):
Yes, yes, And what's actually sometimes worse is if you
always think it the grass is greener, and you go
about your job, start's the wrong way, and now you're
hopping from terrible job to terrible job, and so what
needs to be the beginning of all this is getting
extremely clear about what is your next career step. I
talk in the book about how I did a survey
(06:40):
out to thousands and thousands of people in my audience,
and the vast majority of people responded that the way
that they chose their career was simply because they stumbled
into it. And that is the way people are treating
their careers. They are stumbling through it arguably the most
important decision you could make, because it impacts your finances,
(07:02):
your emotion, your family life, all of it. And we
are just choosing to not choose. And so that is
one of the things I talk a lot about with
the job shopping strategy is let's take deliberate action to
reevaluate what's your right next career step and not be
intimidated by the fact that there might be a little
(07:23):
bit of work to reconfigure your past experience or you know,
fill in some skill gaps, but put yourself on a
trajectory that helps fulfill you, that meets your needs and
values in that career path, and also gets you paid well.
Speaker 1 (07:38):
I like that.
Speaker 2 (07:39):
Yeah, I like how you said it's going to take
a little bit of work, because there are some different
myths that are held by folks who are looking for
a job, and a lot of times folks do think
it's easier just to aim lower, to not set their
sites super high. Can you share some of the other
myths that folks get hung up on?
Speaker 3 (07:56):
Absolutely right, you aiming lower not a great move. If
people think that it's easier to land a job below
your level, it's actually actually easier to land a job
that's a bit higher than your level. Another myth that
people fall victim to is they think that additional certifications
and degrees will help them stand out, which you know,
(08:18):
I mean, so many people are completely burdened by student
loans and all these things. These false promises that these
MBA programs give you that somehow you're going to go
through this program and your career is going to transform,
and that's what I'm seeing time and time again, is
not happening. Now. Of course, get the education, you need
(08:40):
to check the box on your application that you have it.
But I think the difference here is that people think
that when they're struggling to stand out, that that will
make them stand out and it's not a way to
stand out. It is a baseline qualification. It's really your
relationships and your expertise that will help you to stand out.
Speaker 1 (09:05):
So those are a few myths. Talk to me about
maybe some of the what you might call the boomer
advice or something like like the old school advice on
the job hunting front that maybe made sense like decades ago,
but just doesn't make sense in today's job search market.
Like what have you heard people say and you just
(09:27):
like cringe when you hear that advice?
Speaker 3 (09:29):
Oh my gosh. Well, the thing that you'll often hear
from friends and family members if you're struggling your job search,
they'll say, just keep going, keep being consistent, keep applying.
And you should absolutely can continue putting effort into your
job search. But if you are not trying a different approach,
(09:52):
then you are you're wasting your time. Really, having a
high volume job search is actually not the answer to
lending more job offers. The book is full of these
examples as well as just in general with my clients
is that they'll focus on a handful of opportunities, let
fewer than ten maybe, and they'll land interviews at most
(10:16):
of them, and then Land offers at a handful of
those and this is the approach that actually works because
what's happened is that because anyone can apply to jobs
these days, these job boards are completely overrunned with noise,
just absolute noise, and it's now the way to stand
(10:39):
out is to be more focused, is to go one
step above. And that's a big part of the job
shopper strategy is to instead of just blasting out your
information out there and using all these dumb buzzwords that
is very that we were all taught and we're writing
our resumes of seasoned, professional, collaborative, creative, all those those things.
(11:00):
Moving away from that getting highly practical and making your
resume and your LinkedIn profile like sales pages instead of
Wikipedia pages.
Speaker 2 (11:09):
It's fascinating because like when you do fill out an
online application, like it does feel like that you just
highlighted how you're wasting your time essentially, But when you
do that, it's something that you can check like on
your to do list, right, like that's something I can
cross out. It feels like a productive endeavor. But then
you don't actually hear back and you have worked in
HR so like can I guess, can you give us
(11:30):
like a little peak behind the curtain as to what's
going on?
Speaker 1 (11:32):
Is it truly?
Speaker 2 (11:33):
Because there are just so many applicants out there, and
just the in that case, the numbers aren't in your favor.
Speaker 3 (11:40):
Right, So some of these job boards will actually tell
you how many people have applied to these roles, and
you'll see within hours there's often hundreds of applications and
sounds demoralizing.
Speaker 1 (11:51):
Jesus.
Speaker 3 (11:51):
Yes, it's extremely demoralizing. And what's just as demoralizing in
a lot of ways is if you were the employer,
you look at the applications you've gotten and you can
tell these people did not read the job description, They
have no idea who your company is. They often their
qualifications aren't even remotely related to the role they're going for.
(12:14):
So what's upsetting about that is that all of this
noise is now burying the candidates who genuinely wanted the
opportunity and are well qualified. So what does the employer do.
They turn to smaller stacks. We'll call it like virtual stacks, right,
So a stack of people who their employees have said, hey,
(12:36):
I know this person, check out their resume, or the
stack of resumes that a recruiter collected from finding people
on LinkedIn or from their own database. So they go
to these other stacks because that takes them much less time,
it's much more time efficient. And so your goal in
the job search is to get into one of those
(12:58):
smaller stacks.
Speaker 1 (13:00):
Yeah, so the resume gets you in the fat stack.
They're just essentially casting into the garbage bin instead of
getting you in the short stack where you're actually being considered.
In the book, you write that it's one thing to
have the right skills, but having an excellent strategy to
get noticed is what unlocks incredible opportunity. And like you
just said a second ago, you said, make your resume
(13:22):
and your LinkedIn your sales page instead of a Wikipedia page.
So can you kind of dial in on that a
little bit more, what that looks like and how you
can stand out so that you can get noticed in
some of those smaller stacks instead of like just being
the habitual resume seminter.
Speaker 3 (13:37):
So what we were taught to do is to create
our resume of our greatest accomplishments, right, Yeah, that was
how I was taught of write down all the coolest
things you've done, and that is the way our resumes
often show up, and it's called autobiography syndrome, where we
(13:58):
are sharing our life story on our resumes and thinking
that people want to see a chronicled, accurate picture of
what we've done in the past. Companies don't actually want
to know your background and your best accomplishments. What they
do want to know is can you solve our problems?
(14:22):
Can you achieve what we want? And what happens is
I created a formula called the Glory formula, which is
detailed in Reversus Search, And what that formula does is
that when you are building out your resume and LinkedIn profile,
you don't start with your experience. You start with what
(14:45):
the company's asking for. So imagine building out your entire
LinkedIn profile, your entire resume based on what a company's
asking for. Suddenly all of your experience shrinks because you know,
even though I I know that you're being a door
to door salesman helped to cultivate your charisma, and then
(15:06):
the other job of you know, working in customer success
helped you be resilient, blah blah blah. Right, you have
all those things, but you're going for a project manager
role like tell me how you'd be a great project manager.
Those are the things that we often get distracted about.
So you need to start with the opportunity first, build
all of your assets back from that as if you
(15:26):
are a product, you are a product. You are a
someone selling your services, and too often we have this
autobiography syndrome where we feel like we have to tell
the tale of our past.
Speaker 1 (15:39):
So does I mean does that literally mean?
Speaker 2 (15:41):
So practically speaking, and you spend and you've got a
lot of awesome resources on how to flesh out your
LinkedIn profile? Does that literally mean going in there and
changing tailoring I guess some of your experience to the
position that you're looking to land, even if it means
kind of like, you know what, I used to highlight
this sort of a plishment, but instead I'm gonna let's
(16:02):
just tweak it a little bit, using maybe the verbiage
that my potential hopeful new employer that they're looking for.
Speaker 1 (16:09):
Is that what that looks like?
Speaker 3 (16:10):
Right? Yes? So to give you a super practical example,
let's say let's say someone is an executive assistant and
they're looking to move into a social media marketing role.
Literally one hundred percent on their resume on the LinkedIn
of the bullets under executive assistant, Like, let's say that
(16:30):
only ten percent of the time they help the marketing
team with scheduling posts or you know, write helping to
write emails either internally or externally, whatever is that's relevant
to this role. Even that's if that's just ten percent
of the time that they spent in that job, that
is going to make up one hundred percent of their
bullets on their resume and on their LinkedIn. And I
(16:53):
need people to start making this shift because it feels
so weird to them because they're thinking, oh, no, but
my best accomplishment was when I did X. Okay, I
know that those super impressive, but that doesn't have to
do with where you're going next, and so that is
the shift you need to make.
Speaker 2 (17:08):
That's interesting, I mean, do you not think that there
should be any mention of like previously it's like, all right,
I had five to ten bullet points of like my
greatest hits basically, and instead you're saying, you know, like
essentially to dial that back to zero, Like does it
not make sense to like include just like at least
one bullet point that mentions that almost as like a
launching point if they're looking for maybe somebody that's a
(17:30):
little more well rounded or just a little bit I
don't know. I feel like there could be some depth
that could be appreciated by a potential employer there.
Speaker 3 (17:37):
Potentially, and I wouldn't discount that, and maybe it would
be one of the later bullets. And the bottom line is,
too often I'll work with clients where I'll say why
is this bullet here? And they will kind of go
off on this several paragraph long explanation of well, because
I know that they work with these types of clients,
(17:59):
then if they have this type of thing and they
need me to do this type of thing, like, hopefully
that will imply that I'm actually good at this type
of communication. And the bottom line is people are not
reading your entire resume, or if they're even reading it,
they're reading it very quickly. So you need to spell
things out so clearly to where they are using little
to no brain power to understand that you are the
(18:20):
perfect fit. So if you are using some kind of like,
you know, vague implied I could be really good at this,
you know, because of that, You're likely going to lose them.
Speaker 2 (18:31):
Yeahcha, Okay, so less Nancy Drew and more just like
like literally connecting the dots for them.
Speaker 1 (18:36):
Yes, yes, Okay, tell me about the importance of LinkedIn,
Like is LinkedIn kind of the holy grail that people
should be spending a lot more of their time focused
on when it comes to finding a job. Is that
essentially the place that people should put the bulk of
their efforts if they're kind of wanting to enter into
this job shopping realm.
Speaker 3 (18:57):
So the majority of the professals I help are in
the corporate world. There are some industries and professions that
aren't on LinkedIn as much. I think about education, I
think about government, like those types of even though I
do help a lot of people in those industries as well.
I'm saying that on LinkedIn, they're not sourcing, They're not
(19:21):
finding as many of their candidates through the actual platform.
So I do want to preface that depending on your career,
it's more or less important. But if you are in
the corporate world, it is one hundred percent imperative that
you are discoverable on LinkedIn, and your ability to harness
(19:42):
LinkedIn for everything it has to offer can completely transform
the trajectory of your career and your ability to be
a job shopper where the second something goes awry in
your job or you're not convinced that it is a
great next move, you then are able to quickly PI
it and use LinkedIn and all the inbound opportunities. You
(20:04):
have to be in control.
Speaker 1 (20:06):
That makes sense.
Speaker 2 (20:07):
Yeah, that's a good question coming from somebody who's completely
self employed, uh having Yeah, your LinkedIn profile sucks, man,
I mean, I know it does. Like I always wonder
if it's better for me just to completely delete it
so it doesn't exist because I don't even know my password,
Like I have not logged on. I have been personally
self employed for like decades now.
Speaker 1 (20:25):
I'd be worried. I'd be worried if you dusted years
off and it's started looking real nice. I'd like where
you're going, buddy, even slove a boy there for a minute.
Speaker 2 (20:32):
But we're gonna take a quick break and we're gonna
continue talking about some of these like personal on a
micro level, the steps that you can take to get
the job you want.
Speaker 1 (20:41):
We'll get to that and more right after this. All right,
we're back to the break. We're still talking with Madeline
Man talking about getting the job you want, and let's
say you haven't kind of updated your job job searching
philosophy in many, many years. This is the right episode
(21:05):
for you to listen to. Matt. I think some people,
let's say they happened in their career ten, twelve, fifteen years.
It's one of those things like we don't apply for
a job very often, and so we forget how to
do it. So that's why I think this is helpful. Madelin.
I'm curious to hear how to do different economic climates
impact job hunter's job seekers because post COVID, I think
of that that was like a job hunter's dream. Yes,
(21:28):
it was like you almost didn't have to be good
at it because there were just so many job opportunities
because there was more supply of jobs and there was
demand for those jobs. But that has slowly changed. How
do you think about the job climate and then how
job searcher should you know that should impact how they
go into that climate.
Speaker 3 (21:49):
What's happening in this current climate, which I would characterize
as more of an employer's market, and I don't say
that lightly, truly, all the signs have been appointing to
it being an employer's market. And what you have to
realize in this type of climate is companies are worried
(22:12):
about making the wrong higher. They're hiring less and with
each person they hire, they are afraid of putting on
an offer to someone who's not going to work out
because they're trying to watch their bottom line.
Speaker 1 (22:26):
Yeah, and the stakes are higher that they have folks.
Speaker 3 (22:29):
Are higher, and they've been burned and they've already had
to lay off their teams and so they just they
don't want anything else to be a shakeup. And so
what job seekers are seeing is that they're getting to
the end of these interview processes and they're not losing
to anyone. They're losing to the company simply not hiring.
And what's happening here is the job seekers. And I'm
(22:53):
going to put it on the job seekers for this
moment because I like I like it when you know,
the folks in my audience take ownership of It's on
us to reduce the risk that we are posing to
the company. How do you do that? How do you
make it so that the company is super confident that
you are going to be the right person, You're going
(23:14):
to be a high performer. What you do is you
give them almost like a free trial, the way we
have free trial an app, the way we take a
sip of wine to try it before we buy the bottle,
the way we try a yoga class before we buy
a full month pass. You need to bring that kind
(23:34):
of energy into the interview process because these interviewers are
probably not going to ask you very good questions. They're
not going to unearth the best things about you. So
what my strategies teach is actually to go into interviews
with a message, with a mission, and to give them
certain information and also show them how you work through
(23:57):
throughout the entire process, so that the risk profile on
you goes down. Even if you are a career changer,
because a lot of people say, well, I'm a risky
hire because I'm coming from a different industry or a
different profession. This works even in that case, but it's
about you taking those extra steps versus sitting patiently just
(24:18):
answering the questions that companies give you and hoping your
answers are adequate.
Speaker 1 (24:23):
Yeah, No, I like that. I'm curious you highlighted maybe
this scenario where you don't get the job through no
faults of your own, but just because the company says,
I don't know, we're reticent to hire or onboard anybody else.
Right now, what if you do get turned down for
a job that you were really excited about and not
(24:43):
even because you lost out to somebody else, do you
recommend that people stay in touch with that employer, stay
in touch with the hiring manager maybe that they were
in contact with. Is that a way to kind of
broaden your network and maybe be the first person on
their call list if something does open up, if they
really are in need.
Speaker 3 (25:01):
This is another job shopper mentality, which job shopping is
is highly positive and optimistic in that if a company
interviews you, that means they see your value and you're
now building relationships with them and they really like you.
A lot of us feel so hurt when we get
through two, three, even four rounds of interviews and they
(25:23):
don't pick us, and they think, oh, they don't like us, Well,
what I just heard is they spent four plus hours
getting to know you. That means that they actually do
like you. And so what is so important is to
first of all, the first thing you want to do
is respond to the rejection positively. You don't realize how
(25:46):
important this is, and me, as a human resources professional
being on the receiving end of thousands of responses to rejections,
most people can't handle it. Most people are rude or
they don't say anything. And so if you say, I
completely understand, thank you. This has been such a wonderful process.
I've loved getting to know about your company. I will
(26:07):
keep a lookout for other opportunities, should another one better
fit my skill set, and I'd love to stay in touch.
And that because because when you show your character is
not in the good times. It's not when the interviews
are great, it's when things go wrong. And so now
they're like, oops, we just missed out on someone who's
a high integrity person who I want to work in
(26:28):
the trenches with because they have a really great outlook
on rejection, then you want to stay in touch. You
want to you know, maybe it's every every month or so, Hey,
just checking in. I want to let you know I'm
still on the lookout for opportunities. No need to respond,
but should anything open up, like, let me know I'm
(26:48):
still very interested. You know, little little follow ups like
this can absolutely change the game. I have been dubbed
the comeback coach because so many of my clients land
jobs at companies that have previously rejected them.
Speaker 2 (27:03):
Huh yeah, it's like this, It's like a tight little
crack that you can get your foot in, and people
just overlook that.
Speaker 1 (27:09):
But it's like, actually that is right there, Like that
is the path to land this job.
Speaker 2 (27:13):
I think sometimes folks are not realizing or they're missing
out on the fact that those interactions like that is
a form of networking. It's a form of relationship building.
And in your book you write about how so many
folks they actually hate what they consider to be networking,
and specifically because it's inauthentic, but like in reality, maybe
they're just doing it all wrong. So, like, how would
(27:34):
you recommend for job shoppers out there to approach I
guess more traditional networking.
Speaker 3 (27:40):
Networking is the fast way to land jobs, full stop,
and people need to start getting more comfortable with it
because you need to measure your job search in interactions,
not applications, and so simple ways that that can be
is doing something like asking someone of this or that question, right,
(28:00):
So it could be just reaching out to someone you
already know or a new person you look at what
is their past, just to make sure you can get
a bit of context about some things that they might know,
and then you ask them a one sentence question in email.
So I might email, you know, hey, Matt and Joel,
(28:22):
I'm thinking about starting my own podcast. I was thinking
about either using riverside or X technology. Which one do
you think is better to record my podcast on? Thanks?
You know, and maybe just maybe your answer is just
two sentences back to me. But now we are starting conversation,
and then I can then email you back in a
(28:43):
few weeks and say, hey, guys, I went with your
recommendation to use riverside and blah blah blah. Right, and
so just little ways like that and what I think
will happen and let me know because I use y'all
as an example. But the person on the other end
feels good about helping you. They're like, wow, we just
held madelin make her decision. It feels good. And also
(29:05):
it took you all of thirty seconds to maybe respond.
So just finding ways like that to build relationships with
folks and there I have so many different strategies on this,
but even just little things like that, when I position
networking that way to people that go, oh, I think
I might be overthinking it.
Speaker 1 (29:25):
Yeah, you think it has to be this like massive
and there, like we have to go get lunch together,
But it doesn't have to be. That can be a
quick email.
Speaker 2 (29:31):
Like what I hear you saying there is like looking
for an ability for whoever you're talking to to provide value.
Speaker 1 (29:38):
But I mean there's a way to do that in
reverse as well.
Speaker 2 (29:40):
Right where you're kind of I don't know either, maybe
making introduction with some other folks. It just kind of
I like what you said though, Like just even the
quick email, it kind of opens channels of conversation for
who knows what to then take place after.
Speaker 3 (29:54):
That, Right, and you mentioned doing the reverse of providing that.
So a concept I deep dive into pretty deeply in
reverse a search is this concept called sixty seconds of value.
So it goes against this idea that so many of
us think that in order to build relationships we need
(30:15):
to add a tremendous amount of value to someone. We
need to put in minutes or even hours of work
or as you mentioned earlier, like show up to a
coffee meeting and talk to them for ninety minutes or
whatever it is. But if you just add sixty seconds
of value. It can it can really make a big deal.
Like I you know, I could. I could even send
(30:37):
a different email where I send it to y'all where
I say, hey, I'm I'm I'm reaching out to people
who have a financial focused podcasts and like, what's your
number one money tip for someone who's been laid off
or something like that, right, And and you know it's
it's it's sixty seconds of value because I'm sending this
(30:57):
quick email, You're giving me that quote and now I'm
putting it into an article or LinkedIn post or something
like that where you are getting further promoted and it's
just a met and then now I get to meet you. Guys,
get to now we have a thread going where there's
this recip hop prosody, we have a relationship started. And
so little things like that that you can think of
can actually make a huge difference in starting a relationship
(31:20):
off with the right foot.
Speaker 1 (31:22):
Yeah, I feel like imposter syndrome is like rears at
sugglyhead when we're talking about looking for jobs, Like you
look at the qualifications and you're like, I don't live
up to that, or there's like a bunch of metrics
and you're like, oh, I fall shortened like two of
those metrics, so I shouldn't even try. How much does
that really hurt people when they're looking for jobs? And
(31:45):
what do you think about when people look at the
required experience, they're like, I don't quite meet the qualifications.
Should they apply anyway?
Speaker 3 (31:51):
It is such a normal experience to feel overqualified for
so many roles and then feel underqualified for the rest
of them, and you're just in the middle thinking what
the heck do I do now? As we alluded to
in the beginning, it is a bit easier to land
a job that's a step higher. So what you have
to realize is that job descriptions are wishless. When I
(32:16):
worked in human resources, so often I would work together
with a hiring manager to put together's job description, and
I would say, you're expecting someone to have all of
these skills and all this experience, and they say absolutely, like,
this is what we're looking for. And then days and
weeks go by and we find some people, but the
(32:39):
hiring manager starts to come to realize that they are
looking for a purple squirrel, and so what they do
is they start to pare down those expectations or in
the interview, once they start talking, they're like, Okay, I
understand that you don't have exactly this industry experience, but
I understand the transferable and so what people overestimate how
much the higher manager ultimately is asking for, especially once
(33:03):
you get a little bit farther, once they've gone through
several interviews and they realize, oh, okay, what I'm asking
for is a little bit a little bit ridiculous, and
so definitely still go for their role even if you're underqualified,
and that could sometimes work in your favor because companies
can see you as more easily retainable because they don't
(33:24):
think you're going to get bored quickly and leave and
find to find that better job.
Speaker 1 (33:28):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (33:29):
No, I think it's up to you as the candidate
to communicate that well during the interview, like that is
what should be going on there, even.
Speaker 1 (33:36):
If you aren't fully qualified.
Speaker 2 (33:39):
And speaking of interviewing, like you offer a ton of
just great practical advice when it comes to interviews up
on your YouTube channel as well. But what are some
of the other major mistakes that you've seen folks make
when they're being interviewed.
Speaker 3 (33:53):
When they're being interviewed. There's a few things. One of
them that is I'm being so often is because you're
viewing interviews as you are, you know, subservient to the interviewer.
You are, you are the one who is just lucky
that they even deign to call you. That you are
(34:14):
often a little bit too formal in the interviews, you're
a little bit too rehearsed. And I I, you know,
I have a system of how to prepare for interviews,
which actually is probably a lot shorter than what most people.
A lot of people actually kind of over prepare for interviews,
but one of the key components is to not only
(34:34):
you know, be competent, but if you are sounding rehearsed
or stilted, these people are looking to hire a coworker,
so it sets off these alarms in their head. And
it's all very deeply psychological of I can't trust this person.
I worry they're living. Yes, I don't, I don't know
who they are they are. Also, I talk a lot
(34:57):
about about in the book about how to not be
so a reable in interviews, which at first sounds a
little strange because I do talk a lot about being
highly positive in every step of the job search, but
you should come in with a perspective. If you are
a little bit too amenable to everything, Oh yeah, I
can do anything. Yeah, oh no, none of it bothers me.
People are going to leave that interview saying I didn't
(35:18):
get to know them. I don't I'm not sure how
they feel about these things. And that is something I'm
seeing for so many people, is that it's sending the
wrong signals. And I said, you know, they have to
be able to trust you, because they're taking a risk
on you if they don't feel like they actually like you.
Because likability is a huge part of landing the job,
(35:39):
you're not getting it.
Speaker 1 (35:40):
Yeah, the culture fit it matters too, And so do
you have any suggestions on kind of researching the company's
culture and speaking to that inside of the interview, because
I think oftentimes it's the work experience, but on top
of that, they want to make sure that you're going
to work well on the team.
Speaker 3 (35:57):
So doing informational interviews before an interview is fabulous to
talk to employees. But if you already have an interview booked,
I would say use your interviews as a lot of
the research because in the reading glass door reviews, reading
blog posts about the company. I do think it is.
(36:18):
It is helpful, but the most, the most the best
part there is is you bringing up that you did
that research and you mentioning specific things that the company
did to show you did your research. That's usually why
it's so valuable. It's not as valuable necessarily to position
yourself the right way because you really have to ask
the right questions in the interview that will help you
(36:41):
see what they're looking for. And I'll give you an example,
like you could ask you could ask the recruiter in
your first interview of okay, you know, how how has
this how's the search been going? And say well, yeah,
I mean this this role has been open for for
two months now, where we've been looking long and hard
for this, And you say, say, oh, well, what to
(37:01):
have a lot of the candidates been missing that you're
still really looking for, and they will spill all the
things that you need to now position yourself as for
the rest of that interview and your future interviews.
Speaker 1 (37:12):
So like giving you the game plan, the blueprint for
you to go out there and just like hit a
home run.
Speaker 3 (37:17):
They will one hundred percent give you the blueprint. Another
great question to ask is yeah, I mean you obviously
there's tons of people who are probably qualified for this role,
but what would make someone a high performer in this job?
And again, you might see them talk about things that
are different or slightly differently emphasized than the job description.
(37:42):
When you actually hear them say it, you go bingo,
That's how I'm going to position myself. So it's really
a lot of this. Yes, it could come from research,
but more than research, I want you to have these
questions locked and loaded and then your reaction to how
you're going to use that information. It can be absolutely
lethal if you are thinking the right way about how
(38:04):
you're going to use it.
Speaker 1 (38:05):
Nice. We got a few more questions to get to
you with you, Madeline. We specifically want to talk about negotiating,
and then we also want to talk about perpetual job shopping.
Is that a smart idea? We'll get to that and
more right after this.
Speaker 2 (38:24):
If we are back from the break talking with career
coach Madeline Mayn and we just kind of covered some
of the different things to do. I guess Madeline during
the interview process, Let's say the interview goes incredibly well,
how then should the job shopper think about negotiating pay
because in the book you call it a collaborative process,
(38:45):
so specifically, what does that look like.
Speaker 3 (38:47):
There's a lot of debate out there about when should
you talk about money and all of that. Based on
my experience in human resources and for helping thousands of
people negotiate their salaries, your biggest moment of power is
when they have said we want you okay, because at
(39:07):
that point they know as much as they can about
your value. If you've put your price on your salary
and all of that early on in the process, I
think that could be helpful to just kind of cut
off the conversation if the numbers are way too far apart,
which I completely understand that's helpful, but they don't know
your value at that point. If they see a big
(39:29):
price tag and they say, well, we can't afford that,
they might pass on you. But if they've gotten to
the finish line, they've fallen in love with you. They're
exhausted from this interview process. You are the answer to
it all being over, and you say, hey, but I
want a bit more money, They're going to say, yeah,
just give her the extra fifteen K and let's move
on with our lives. We love her. So that's the
(39:52):
first thing is to you know, at least you know,
try to make what you are asking for as late
in the process as possible so that they can line
it up with your value versus just having sticker shock.
And second, really stating what you want. And then and
(40:13):
often I like to use a number that if you're
going to say a range or even ask for a number,
always ask for something that's above what you would actually
what is actually above what is your bottom? Too often
people will negotiate and they will literally they will actually
put the bottom of the range as the bottom. And unfortunately,
(40:34):
companies will often give you whatever is the lowest number
you said, or even below that. Like if they offered
you two hundred thousand and used to ask for two
hundred and twenty thousand, maybe they give you two hundred
and ten thousand, Right, So you need to make sure
that whatever is that number that you're saying, that it
is above what you'd be excited to accept.
Speaker 1 (40:59):
Yeah, and then you're feeling pot committed at that point
in time too, You're like, I've gone through this whole process,
I guess I'll just take the offer, whereas if you
negotiated in a smarter manner, you could have positioned yourself
better to get.
Speaker 2 (41:10):
Paid more, because in reality, you're probably staying to yourself. Well,
I did say that number, I did see that dollar amount,
and so it's just like, well, shoot, maybe I shouldn't
have said that. Yeah, it's hard to go back on
words on the truth that you've already put out there
in the universe. Yeah, Mat, I'm curious. Should do you
think job shopping should be a perpetual thing? Is this
something where like, oh I got laid off and now
it's time for me to update all this in my
(41:31):
LinkedIn and my resume and to start the job shopping,
you know, going in that direction? Or or is this
one of those things that should be done on an
ongoing basis. Should we be honing our online presence in
our personal brand even when we have a job, even
if we love that job.
Speaker 3 (41:46):
The thing that people often don't think about, especially in
the good times, is they think, you know, to go
back with the example is Okay, I have a job
where I get paid two hundred thousand dollars a year,
But do you if you get laid off within six
months You're not making two hundred thousand dollars that year
unless you land another job within a few weeks or months,
(42:08):
and or you have a decent amount of severance or whatnot,
And so people are not factoring that into their annual
compensation of I need to have if I need to
make a certain amount of money a year, do I
am able to take several months off with no salary,
or also am if I'm not able to or I
(42:29):
don't want to do I have the ability to at
the drop of a hat get more opportunities and more offers.
And the thing about maintaining your job shopper status is
it doesn't take that much effort. You can passively get
opportunities coming to you for the rest of your career
while times are good, so that should anything go awry,
(42:50):
you are immediately thrust into interview processes and considering offers.
And so, yes, there is ongoing maintenance, and that is
something I definitely dive in deeply into the book of
how to keep it going. And there is a bit
of startup effort to start moving in the direction of
being a job shopper, but the maintenance, and I've been
(43:10):
doing this for enough years too. I've been able to
track my clients over years of promotions and years of
moving companies, and they say that every time they move jobs,
it's just easier and easier because that foundation is built,
but it does need to be maintained.
Speaker 1 (43:26):
That makes sense though, too.
Speaker 2 (43:27):
I mean it's sort of like Joel at the earlier
on you were talking about how looking for a job,
applying for a job, it's not something that we do
very often. It makes me think about moving. And if
you've only ever moved once in your entire life, it's
a big stinking deal. It's difficult the logistics kind of
wrapping your head around it. But if you're used to moving,
if it's something that you've done like every few years.
Speaker 1 (43:47):
Like my little sister who moves almost every year.
Speaker 2 (43:49):
Who get better at it In a similar way. I
think instead of just moving where you lay your head,
it's moving where you park your butt during the day
while you're sitting there at the computer. I think the
better you get at looking for some of those portunities
makes a ton of sense. What's your advice for how
often you can move to a different company before it
starts harming your career? Because I feel like this is
something that folks were doing a lot, especially back during
(44:11):
the pandemic. Offers were, you know, flying up folks left
and right. Do you feel like that that's leveled out
some and kind of what's the timeframe that you think
folks should maybe perhaps even like limit themselves to job hopping.
Speaker 3 (44:26):
It does depend on mainly two factors. One is what
is your profession. The more in demand your profession is,
the more job hopping won't impact you as much because
you know companies really need you and they will be
willing to look past that. The second one is how
far along are you in your career. If you are,
(44:48):
you know, first five to seven years in your career
and you hop to a few different places because you're
trying to figure out what you want to do, companies
are like, yes, of course, figuring out what you're going
to do, that makes total sense. But as we start
to move later into our career and we're managing people
now and we're setting business strategy, companies are looking for
(45:12):
people who are going to see things through from start
to finish and to build a reputation. And personally, I'm
someone who really sees that, Yeah, more of job hopping
is like under two years is kind of like where
where you're kind of starting to get job hopping territory.
When you get to three and four years, I would say,
(45:34):
that's just like a solid tenure and if you go,
if you stay for like more than five, it's like WHOA,
You've been at the company forever. So at least that's
and it differs for different industries, of course, but if
you are kind of viewing each job like you are,
like you would at least of like, you know, enrolling
(45:55):
in a four year college program or something like that,
as you're getting more advanced in your career, it is
really good to stay there for at least that amount
of time or possibly even longer, because the things that
that can do for your career, of the depth of
the relationships, the quality of the accomplishments, the reputation that
you can build can be pretty unparalleled. So it really
(46:18):
is a personal decision, but I would caution you against
job hopping too much once you get later in your career.
Speaker 1 (46:26):
Wonderful, Madeline, so much great information. Thank you so much
for taking the time to join us today. Where can
how to Money listeners find out more about you and
more about your book? That's coming out in just a
few days.
Speaker 3 (46:37):
Absolutely, you can find it at reverseth search dot com
and you can find me as Madelineman on LinkedIn, self
Made Millennial on YouTube and Madeline man is my website
as well.
Speaker 2 (46:51):
Awesome, Madelin, Thank you so much for talking with us today.
Speaker 1 (46:54):
Thank you all right, Matt. That was such a good conversation,
so much good information. And again, if you don't apply
for jobs regularly, which most people don't.
Speaker 2 (47:05):
I definitely haven't a long long time, you better you
better not have. Then I wonder if that's why, Okay,
let's be honest, is that a part of why a
lot of what her message, a lot of what her
message contained, why it stood out to us because of
the fact that this isn't a space that you and
I were in that were walking around a whole lot, right,
Like we always were talking about investing, We're always talking
about debt, student loans, retirement, all of these like that's
(47:27):
our space. But when it comes to jobs and trying
to you know, launch a new career, trying to get
a new job.
Speaker 1 (47:34):
Those topics are a little bit more foreign to us. Yeah,
but I think that's also just true for everyone out
there listening or for most people are like, I don't
remember the last time I applied for a job, unless
you are a job operator. And I bet there are
people out there listening who are like, but I'd like
to I don't really like where I'm at. I would
like to make more money. I'd like to pivot in
my career to do something a little more interesting or enjoyable. So, so,
what was your big takeaway from this combo of Madeline?
Speaker 2 (47:55):
So? A lot of what she said stood out to me.
I've actually I took a ton of notes, but cifically
when she was talking about during the interview process, the
questions that you can ask by being a little bit inquisitive,
you can glean a ton of information that wasn't on.
Speaker 1 (48:10):
The job listing.
Speaker 2 (48:11):
Uh, it's like inception. It may yeah, it's I don't know.
It's like actually, it's like actually reading the tea leaves.
It's like, Okay, the job posting said that you're looking
for this, But just from talking with you for five
minutes the conversation before the conversation, I've learned that like
that you have emotionally tied yourself to this part of
what it is that you're looking for.
Speaker 1 (48:29):
I like how she talked through that. She's just like,
they'll totally spill exactly what it.
Speaker 2 (48:34):
Is that they're looking for, and your ability to tailor
your responses with that in mind, not that you're lying,
not that you're being deceitful, but your ability to highlight
how you are going to fit perfectly squarely in this square.
Speaker 1 (48:47):
You know your square peg.
Speaker 2 (48:48):
You're being a tech Yes, yeah, I think that's I
think that's brilliant. So what she said that, whether it's
that or whether it's Hey, what about some of the
other other candidates who have you who have you talked to?
You know, like, what have they missed? Well, let's not
be negative, not what are they missing, but what would
the ideal canidate have? And again, it gives you some
of that information that will allow yourself to be that
will allow you to put yourself in the best light.
Speaker 1 (49:09):
That was my big takeaway. How about you? There are
a million things I could say in response to that,
but I think when it boils down to it, she said,
you are a product. Sell yourself and I was like, man,
that's true, and we're so hesitant, and I think there's
a difference. You can be humble and sell yourself. I
think sometimes people think that it's one or the other.
You're a cocky, prideful persons jerk trying to sell yourself.
(49:33):
But I think you can do it with humility, like
in a reasonable way. And she outlined actually a bunch
of tangible ways to do that in the job searching
or the job shopping process. So don't be afraid to
sell yourself, don't be afraid to talk about the things
that you can help that company with. You want to
be the solution. You want to be the advil to
(49:56):
that pain point right that they're experiencing. And if you
or maybe just the generic ibuprofen, right, mac is, let's
be honest, that will cost too much. But you have
the ability to do that for an employer. And if
you don't sell yourself, if you're unwilling to kind of
be a little more forthcoming about what you have to offer,
there's a chance you're gonna get lost in the shuffle
(50:18):
of a bunch of other people who want that same position.
You do totally.
Speaker 2 (50:22):
And there's a trick too, of doing that without being
super agreeable. Where Like you don't want to be so
polished that there's no grit, there's nothing there for the
interview were to lash Onto.
Speaker 1 (50:32):
You want to be like, well, I like that, but
you ever thought about it like this. Yeah, yeah, the
ability to provide your own ideas as well. The beer
you and I enjoyed it today was called a I
don't know, I've never seen this word before. I think
it's called a phonio or fanio rising. It's an ancient
West Africa super grain. Oh okay, that's not the kind
of beer it is. I guess it's made with an
ancient West African super grain. See. Oh on the back,
(50:55):
it's a pale air. It's a pale ale by Brooklyn Brewery,
a limited release. You think so this was like a
weedy pale ale. Yeah, it was, Yeah, totally, which I appreciate,
which gives it just like a little more body.
Speaker 2 (51:08):
I think they're trying to highlight this bettermouthfeel, this ancient
grain or whatever.
Speaker 1 (51:12):
But it's interesting, yeah, because so the hops kind of
took a back seat in this. I totally agree.
Speaker 2 (51:15):
And and it's wake was certainly the sort of weedy backbone.
But the first thing I noticed that it was just
the floral bouquet like it had and it says, it's
they want you to pull out fruity and citrus notes,
but I pulled out peachee notes.
Speaker 1 (51:29):
To me, it had like serious peachee vibes going on.
Really enjoyed it. Glad you know I got to share
it today. Peaches. I don't think there were actually any
peaches made put into this beer. No, I don't think so.
Peach beers are phenomenal, like peach sours, the pesh oh,
they're one of the top. To me, they're one of
the best roots to put in. It was a lot
for me.
Speaker 2 (51:47):
It's blueberry. You know, I love blueberry sours. I think
raspberries blueberry sour. Yeah, raspberries a number one, cherries a
number two. Peaches of three, I forget about cherry. Yeah, no,
cherry's got to.
Speaker 1 (51:55):
Be number one. Cherries are so perfect for me.
Speaker 2 (51:57):
Right, So, I guess we need to have some barely
hours come back to your stal soon. It's been a minute,
but you can find our show us up on the
website at howtomoney dot com. We'll make sure to link
to some of Madeline's different resources where it is that
you can buy her book that comes out next week,
which is called Reverse the search.
Speaker 1 (52:13):
It's a good one and uh, all right, buddy, that's
gonna be it. So until next time, best friends out,
Best friends Out,
Hosts And Creators
Joel Larsgaard
Matthew Altmix
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