August 4, 2025 • 47 mins
We’re glad Ikea exists. The ability for a vast majority of the population to get their hands on some incredibly functional, well designed, and affordable furniture is a good thing. But, you’re also unlikely to pass Ikea furniture down to your kids or for that matter, use it for more than a handful of years. Compare that to a campaign dresser from the 1800s! It’s true that they don’t make them like they used to. The same is true when it comes to modern financial advice. There’s a lot of ‘wisdom’ floating around out there that is self-serving at best, and deceptive and predatory at worst. So in today’s episode we pull some ancient wisdom from the Bible, Stoicism, and other wisdom traditions from hundreds to thousands of years before our time. Then we connect that ancient wisdom to our modern times to help you to determine what you should be doing with your money.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
What's going on, buddy? Hey man, So we're almost back.
We just spent like fifteen minutes recapping all the countless
stories that we have regarding our travels, the good and
the bad, to each other, not to our audience. But
what's what's funny is that we had to we needed
to jump back into the office to record a couple
ad spots. We're just you know, we're trying to be
(00:20):
team players there for the network. It's tough to go
m I A for multiple weeks. Yes, yeah, but we are.
We figured, hey, how about a quick little intro and uh, the.
Speaker 2 (00:29):
Honest truth is, nothing has happened while we're gone. No
big bills have passed. No fascinating.
Speaker 1 (00:34):
I think the pause while we're going right exactly? The
world revolve around how the money?
Speaker 2 (00:39):
There's there's so much to discuss upon our return, which
comes Wednesday. So if you're listening to this now, this
is our last bestie and we look forward to being
back with you. And actually Wednesday's episode is going to
be a recap of our sabbatical, what we've learned, what
we've taken away from from this time off. Matt, I
know for you it's been resortive for me too, So
forward to it. Man, a lot of interesting insights that
(00:59):
I'm looking forward to discussing with our audience on Wednesday.
Welcome to How the Money. I'm Joel and I am Matt,
and today we're talking about Jesus Christ, Super Saber, ancient wisdom,
and your money. So this is not our Andrew Lloyd
(01:32):
Weber version of seventies rock play or did you have
you ever seen Jesus Christ Super sar I have never
seen it.
Speaker 1 (01:40):
So now, but it is a good one.
Speaker 2 (01:43):
And we took inspiration from that title for this episode.
Absolutely and okay, so like not to launch into the
proverbial phrases too soon, But who it is that you
listen to will determine who it is that you become.
And so if you're listening listening to our podcast, you
listen to Joel and Matt talk about money, I think
there's a good chance you're gonna end up in a
maybe in a similar place as us, at least financially speaking,
(02:06):
compared to the rest of the world. Right, Like, certainly they're.
Speaker 1 (02:08):
Gonna be differences between our finances and your finances. But
who it is that we listen to, what we fill
our minds with truly does have a massive impact on
our future.
Speaker 2 (02:17):
Garbage and garbage out, all of these things that determine
your future. And so that's why we're essentially like revisiting
some of these seriously ancient truths and specifically we're gonna
look at how it is that they pertain to your money.
We're gonna talk about the moves that you can make
and how this ancient wisdom can inform those moves. Yeah,
and we're going to tap some biblical wisdom. We're gonna
(02:38):
tap some of the Stoics or thus the Jesus Christ
part exactly exactly, and we're gonna go out about doing
like we're gonna get Old Testament with Jesus Christ Buddha
in a Stoic walk into a bar kind of. But
we figured that started getting getting a little too long.
That was a little more heretical as well. Another title
idea for this episode, but I like what we went with.
But yeah, so hopefully in today's episode will cover a
(02:58):
bunch of ground. And I think Matt, especially in a
time where we rely on a lot of modern wisdom, well,
we thought it could be helpful to yeah, bring bring
out some ancient wisdom at the same time.
Speaker 1 (03:10):
That's right, man, Okay, real quick, I've got a frugal
or cheap for you. A couple of weeks ago, some
friends of ours were throwing a party and this was
an adult's only party, so no kids allowed. So this
was after you put the kids down to bed kind
of thing. Oh yeah, no, I was definitely looking forward
to it. It was like creepy Tom cruise parties.
Speaker 2 (03:29):
Is not that kind of not an eyes wide shut
whatever party, but a normal grown ups, adult party. And
specifically I failed to mention this. These were some neighbors
of ours directly across the street, and this raised the
question as to whether or not we should get a babysitter.
(03:50):
Maybe it led to a discussion. It wasn't an all
out argument, but we got close. We were discussing it,
and I felt that because it was going to just
be across the street, and because we have.
Speaker 1 (03:59):
An older daughter now, that it was going to be
totally fine for us to put the kids down walk
across the street. Literally, we're gonna My idea was a
set up an iPad and if anything comes up, they
can just facetimeless. They all know how to use the iPad.
But you see where this is going. Kate disagreed with me.
So what are your thoughts? Do you feel that I
was being frugal or cheap by counting on our kids
(04:22):
to report if there was anything going on?
Speaker 2 (04:24):
Oh well, I don't know, man, I'm somewhere in the
I think probably it's frugal. I think if you're across
the street, I think you could buy without a babysitter,
especially since you have a nine year old who's just
pretty smart.
Speaker 1 (04:36):
She's pretty good. I mean, all the kids are pretty smart.
Held down the fort and plus if it was like
a real emergency and let's say the technology failed, they
could just like right across the street. Like literally, we
were right there. Kate disagreed, and I think she knew
before we ended the conferce, like we never reached a conclusion.
And then the next time I brought it up, she's like, oh,
we've got a babysitter. And I mean truly, in the end,
(04:58):
I was like, all right, that's fine. I was willing
to pay a babysitter because it meant that she was
going to be able to relax, maybe have just a
better time. But that also kind of raises another question.
At what age would you feel comfortable leaving your oldest to,
like you said, hold down the fort Yeah, uh, not
necessarily just within the neighborhood, because it depends on distance.
It depends on to be gone, because I would trust
(05:20):
her now probably going across the street for an hour
because they she would know where we were. But part
of it, I don't know what.
Speaker 2 (05:26):
Age, because part of so much of it depends on
how much sure she is right individual and so yeah,
how depends your circumstances with her younger siblings, especially as
they grow up, like can they listen to her? And
will they will they obey? So well, I don't know,
but I will say I think you guys, you did
mention that you expanded your budget for babysitting services, which
I think is which I think is smart that you
(05:47):
you've basically called out in your budget you've prioritized being
able to go out the two of you, and so
you probably wish you would have used it on uh
what different sort of day because you kind of think
that there's a way that you can do both at
the same time. Because I see the ability to a
hang out with some friends and be also not spend
the money because they're just right there. And again this
was we would have put them down, so they would
(06:08):
have been for the most part, especially the younger ones,
either as sleep or just reading quietly in their bed as.
Speaker 1 (06:13):
They peacefully drifted off to sleep while we were hanging
out across the street.
Speaker 2 (06:17):
What I think the other right thing to do is
if it's that big of a deal to your significant other,
you said it was, yeah, all right, I guess well,
I'm not going to be It would be cheap then,
because it would make her upset and she would not
be able to enjoy her time. And so yeah, you
got to think about that as well, not just whether
you feel comfortable with it, but whether they feel comfortable
with it.
Speaker 1 (06:34):
To your partner as well, I think yeah, speaking of
ancient wisdom, better defer to your partner, to your spouse.
Speaker 2 (06:40):
What happy wife, happy life is always what I've heard,
but school it has some truth.
Speaker 1 (06:46):
To it, Yeah it does. This is called sour Pipe
Project Apricot Crumble. This is a beer by Vitamin C Brewing.
And it's not vitamin C as in like vitamin AB
vitamin C. It's vitamin C as vitamin ocean. So I'm
looking forward to this brewery who happens to be located
by the ocean. We'll share our thoughts at the end
(07:07):
of the episode. Very nice, all R.
Speaker 2 (07:09):
Yeah, I'm looking forward to checking this out. Any anything
that beer that tastes like a pie, I want to
try it, so.
Speaker 1 (07:15):
Fruited sours, lactose or pastry sours yea in particular. Yeah,
looking forward to it. All right, Well, Matt, let's let's
move on. Let's get to the subject at hand. We
are talking about ancient wisdom in this episode, and you
know it. As I thought about this, I was thinking, well,
what is it today that most of us use someone
regularly but it falls short of kind of what we're
(07:36):
used to.
Speaker 2 (07:36):
Maybe quality has gone down the hill, and maybe kind
of maybe think of Akia for some reason, Like I
thought you're.
Speaker 1 (07:42):
Gonna say, lead pipes, they'll make them like they use
true the brass knuckles. They're not, you know, quite as
thick as they used to be. Well, brass knuckles. I'm
not thinking.
Speaker 2 (07:51):
I'm not talking about like gang fights. I'm thinking about
like actual pipes. Well, in your plummus, that's making a joke,
because lead pipes were terrible.
Speaker 1 (07:58):
Yeah they were.
Speaker 2 (07:59):
I thought you were like, talk about those chains someone
over the head with one.
Speaker 1 (08:03):
But and you got you got your mind on what
was that motile game road rash Sega genesis. That's the
kind of lead pipe you're thinking of. That that's exactly what.
I don't know why, but uh yeah, he chose violence.
Speaker 2 (08:16):
But I'm thinking about Ikea, and I'm thinking, like, we
have a few Ikea pieces in our house. Mostly we
do too for storage in our kids room. They're basically
like the cheap bookshelves, right, But nothing I've encountered in
Ikea as I'm walking through there has ever come close
to the beauty and the sturdiness that our favorite antique
(08:37):
furniture pieces that we have in our house possessed. Right.
I love my Brazilian rosewood table. Yeah, we have a
mid century teak desk. I didn't know you're so wealthy.
They're not even terribly expensive. We have seventy year old
walnut dressers. Matthew, you're just you're just bragging life of opulence.
Speaker 1 (08:55):
Yes, it's true, and and rich mahogany, the smell of leather.
Speaker 2 (08:59):
Yes, but these are pieces we planned to have forever,
and they were not even terribly expensive pieces.
Speaker 1 (09:04):
To begin with.
Speaker 2 (09:05):
But they're a far cry from let's say, the Ikio
wardrobe that crumbled when we tried to move it that
one time. I swear we paid fifty dollars for that.
It lasted for a couple of years in the house.
We tried to move it and it basically disintegrated in
front of our eyes. Well, you know, and that could
just just evaporates, right, yes, where did it go? Teleported
to another realm? It's like the snap I knows right well,
(09:27):
And that could just be maybe because our skills with
an alan rent aren't very good, and so it lasts
for a minute.
Speaker 1 (09:32):
But I don't know.
Speaker 2 (09:33):
I think it made me think that no one really
ever gets jazzed about inheriting their parents' callax shelving unit
or something like that. Right, But that one hundred year
old mahogany chest, that's a different story. It's like this
family heirloom, and the way it's crafted and made is
you might be thrilled to get that one of these days.
And I think the same is true when it comes
to modern advice. Right, there's some good stuff out there,
(09:54):
but the best of it is actually based on ancient
wisdom that has stood the test of time, and so
we want to really talk about older money advice that's
been around for hundreds and hundreds of years. Delve into
that and see maybe what it has to say to
us today.
Speaker 1 (10:08):
Yeah yeah, so, okay, I'm not on TikTok, but I've
seen some of the videos that are out there that
masquerade as financial advice that's flitting around there on the platform,
out there in the ether. And if you are only
listening to folks on TikTok, for instance, there's a lot
of wisdom that you're missing out on when we only
pay attention to, you know, like influencers on some of
the different social media platforms. And that's not to say
(10:31):
that there aren't solid folks out there who are doing
decent work in the short form format. There definitely are.
But the best wisdom, the best advice, stands the test
of time, like you said, And you know, we're not
just picking on social media as well. There's crappy financial
advice even in legacy media, you know, like the more
traditional forms of media.
Speaker 2 (10:48):
Oh, even in some of the bigger papers, the TV papers, blogs.
There's bad books out there as.
Speaker 1 (10:52):
Well, just because you get a publishing deal or you
self published, that doesn't necessarily mean that there is good
advice within that book, within the text. So in today's episode,
we're gonna be pulling from the Bible. We're gonna be
talking about Stoicism and just some of these other wisdom
traditions from hundreds to thousands of years before time, and
then we'll connect that ancient wisdom to like a modern
(11:16):
implementation in order to help you to determine what it
is that you should be doing with your money.
Speaker 2 (11:21):
Yeah, and you just mentioned books, Matt, and it makes
me think like most of the books that people read
these days are actually new books, right, and yet we
have so many rich books from years and years and
years ago that we just never even touched. And I
subscribe to this newsletter actually, it's called read More Books,
(11:41):
and this guy, Jeremy Anderberg runs it and he reads
one hundred plus books a year, and so I just
kind of want to, you know, as somebody who's an
avid reader who writes a newsletter about it, I'm constantly curious, well,
what is it that he's reading and maybe is there
something worth reading for me? And he just wrote a
top ten list that includes some of his takeaways from
having read more than a thousand books, which is impressive.
(12:02):
And one suggestion that he gave, which I thought was
just helpful, was to not read the new shiny books
that get marketed to us, to spend more time with
the classics. And I think he's spot on there. I
couldn't agree more. I think the same is true when
it comes to helpful thoughts on money right there are,
like you admitted, Matt, some great personal finance influencers giving
(12:22):
really helpful advice on some of the socials on Twitter,
on Instagram, whatever it is. But the more we can
incorporate ancient wisdom alongside folks who are good at translating
it for modern ears, the more thorough our understanding and
connection to this subject that has this massive impact, this
massive influence on all of us is going to be.
Speaker 1 (12:41):
And it's not necessarily that old books are automatically good
or wise or better. It's important to be are automatically dustier.
But we want folks to be thoughtful about which ancient
wisdom texts that we look at, that we read, that
we listen to. Makes me think about a book that
we've been checking out that came out recently called superabundance.
(13:01):
Speaking of newer books, this is a newer book, but
it's a quality book and it's pretty nerdy. It's written
by two economists, but at the beginning of the book,
they're basically going through some of these different economists views
of how humanity would progress over the These are predictions
that were made, like, I mean, hundreds of.
Speaker 2 (13:18):
Years ago, sixteen, seventeen hundred stuff.
Speaker 1 (13:20):
Yeah, yeah, most of them were way off. We're seriously off.
And they often thought that the earth was becoming overpopulated
and that we would basically run out of resources, that
civilization would collapse. And that's often referred to as the
Malthusian view because Thomas Robert Malthus perhaps I think that's
his middle name, he was the most famous person arguing
(13:42):
from that vantage point. But this, you know, this book
is all about just how wrong his views have come
to be over the years. You know, instead of fewer resources,
we've got Malthusian refutation.
Speaker 2 (13:53):
Yes, yeah, we've got more resources these days. Instead of
fewer calories per person that are available to us now,
food is it's widely plentiful, even if some of those
resources aren't being properly matched to those who need it
in the immediate short term could go on and on.
Human ingenuity has just proven to overcome these resource limitations,
(14:14):
and so, you know, while we are certainly critical of
a lot of the modern advice that is dispensed today,
it's important to question the validity of old advice as well.
Don't just take it as cannon. Don't don't just take
it as you know, truth, just because it was written
to three hundred plus years ago. And in fact, depending
on what topic you're delving into there, there's probably a
(14:35):
lot that's changed scientifically, geographically, like our understanding, a lot
of things that we've developed, and so you don't want
to go back that far.
Speaker 1 (14:42):
But yeah, if you're a doctor, don't look back at
some of the old texts like blood letting. Hell, how
that should be something that we don't.
Speaker 2 (14:48):
Go watch snake and then perform surgery like that, Like
that's not that's probably not a good approach. But one
of the reasons that ancient wisdom often holds up is
because even though the times have changed, human nature hasn't.
And even though our financial systems and the products that
are available to us wouldn't have been recognizable even just
a couple hundred years ago. The emotions that humans possess
(15:09):
remain just as true and consistent as ever. Even though
there are better tools at our disposal, we still have
a hard time using them appropriately and effectively because scarcity, jealousy, greed, like,
people were dealing with all those things, all those emotions
thousands of years ago. But it's not like we've been
able to eradicate them in any way form more fashion like.
We're still dealing with them today just as much, if
(15:30):
not more so. And so, yeah, some things never change
because human nature never really changes. And this is also
why we're able to take a neutral stance when it
comes to, you know, whether or not something like money
is a good or bad thing. Right, It's not inherently
either one of those things, because it comes down to
what the individual is doing with that money. You can
you can use the tool for good or for bad,
(15:51):
but it all comes down really to how you wield it.
Speaker 1 (15:54):
That's right. Yeah, money is not inherently virtuous, right, it
is a completely passive tool. So we're gonna go back
even for though than just some of the economists and
predictions that were made a few hundred years ago, we're
gonna go back further. We're gonna focus less on economists
and their ilk. We're more interested in these time tested
passages from literally from millennia past that ring true then
(16:14):
but also have a similar residence today. We're going to
talk about how those truths apply to your money. We'll
get to that right after this break. All right, Matt,
let's keep going with us. Let's talk money in ancient wisdom,
and maybe let's start with the Hebrew Bible in fact,
(16:37):
where specifically there's a lot of proverbs that speak to money,
and they speak to a life well lived. And the
thing is, you don't have to be Jewish or be
a Christian to gain value from the wisdom, the copious
amounts of wisdom that spring from the sixty six books
in the Bible, the books in the Old Testament, or
as the Hebrew Bible. Right, And the reality is that
(17:01):
our whole society is infused with Judeo Christian ethics. They
form the basis of much of our cultural reality. Our
country was largely founded on a lot of those ethical citations.
Are our legal structures as well that govern our country today.
Speaker 2 (17:17):
Right, But I think it can be hard for us
to see that because it's the water we swim in
and we're like, what's water.
Speaker 1 (17:23):
Well, it is truly.
Speaker 2 (17:25):
Kind of all around us, So it can be hard
if you're not looking for it to see that it's
kind of the reality of the world around us in
so many ways, and that much of the wisdom from
those traditions kind of feels less accessible to us today.
Speaker 1 (17:38):
And I think it's.
Speaker 2 (17:39):
Because our nation isn't nearly as steeped in the wisdom
literature from these two monotheistic religions, not nearly as much
as we used to be, at least sure, And that's
not We're not no judgment here, but we do think
that religious or not, spending more time with these books
can help us better understand ourselves, the people around us,
and the society that we living. And we think that
(18:01):
spending some time with the Proverbs, with some of this
wisdom literature can help us understand money better too.
Speaker 1 (18:07):
Yeah. You know what's really interesting is I bet there
are a lot of folks out there who know way
more Bible verses than they realize because they just thought
that they were just staying that their grandma said. You know,
they're like, grandma was so wise and it's like, well,
I think she was wise, but I think she also
just knew the Bible, or she knew a lot of
verses and.
Speaker 2 (18:25):
Was in touch with ancient wisdom more than we are.
Speaker 1 (18:27):
Now exactly exactly, and so like one that kind of
falls within that vein is Proverbs chapter sixteen, verse eighteen,
which is pride goes before destruction, a haughty spirit before
the fall. I think a lot of times in my
mind at Lea's always shortened that one to like pride
goes before the fall. Yeah, but in reality it's, uh, yeah,
it's not quite that one.
Speaker 2 (18:45):
Let's just abbreviate that monern wisdom or the ancient wisdom
that it's a yeah, the how to money translation. Proverbs
is just one of those books though that it's it's
considered wisdom literature. And instead of these the card and
fast rules of what you can and can't.
Speaker 1 (19:00):
Do, they're more like rules of thumb. And this one
is it's basically stating that the more prideful we are,
the more likely we are to end up in a
bad place. You know. Like we actually had an episode
not too long ago where we talked about the characteristics
of great investors and humility that was up there as
one of the most important characteristics that we that we
think folks should embody when it comes to getting far
(19:21):
with their money. And because the fact is that we're
too prideful to take important helpful advice or for just
even unwilling to admit that we don't know everything, there's
a good chance that it's gonna wreck havoc within our lives.
Speaker 2 (19:33):
Yeah, I don't know. Maybe can we give kind of
a modern example of this match. I think maybe that'll
help connect the dots.
Speaker 1 (19:38):
Well, plenty of examples of their side in our world today,
there's so many.
Speaker 2 (19:42):
Yes, I mean, we could spend the whole rest of
the episode giving examples, but I just made me think
of everyone's good friend. Kanye West was on CNBC recently
talking about his breakup with The Gap, and you know,
he has helped the Gap be I guess more successful,
which is not just that's not saying a whole lot
because The Gap has been pretty pathetic for whole lot
of years now. But yeah, they have now parted ways,
(20:04):
and so yeah, Kanye was on CNBC and he basically
told the host that he refuses to take advice from
people who have less money than he does. And of
course the interviewer, she was pretty speechless because that's just odd.
But that's Kanye for you, right, And I don't know,
but his response to me it was telling because he
thinks he's the only guy in the room who knows
what he's doing. He thinks he's the most talented. And
(20:26):
when you think of yourself in that way, you're a
bound to make bigger mistakes at some point. And whether
that's because there truly is someone who has more knowledge
than you do, maybe it's because they're simply able to
provide a different perspective, or maybe it has more to
do with the social impacts of someone who's prideful. Right
either way, like to say that you can't accept advice
from someone who is less financially successful than you are,
(20:49):
to me, reflects a pretty prideful spirits and a lack
of realizing that we can learn from all sorts of
people around us, Like you know what, I could learn
something from Kanye, even despite his kind of erratic behavior.
And the more that we are on the lookout for
wisdom from the mouths of others, I think the better
off we're going to be.
Speaker 1 (21:08):
That's right, man. Yeah, let's keep moving. Then let's snag
another one from Proverbs. This is from chapter twenty two.
Verse one reads, A good name is more desirable than
great riches, to be esteemed is better than silver or gold.
And so basically what this one is saying is that
money is not everything. So you kind of gave Kanye
as an example, which he.
Speaker 2 (21:28):
Always did a Sunday service thing. I feel like we
could go there and read somebody.
Speaker 1 (21:32):
Because he found Jesus according maybe he has, maybe he hasn't.
I don't know. That's not for me to decide or
to judge. But you gave him as an example. My
mind kind of drifts off to somebody else who basically
completely ruined the reputation, which is Bernie made off. Let's
imagine that even though he had done all the terrible
things he didn't Let's imagine that he had somehow avoided
(21:53):
going to jail, he had managed to hang on to
all his money. Would you rather be the guy or
the girl with ludicrous, ridiculous amounts of money got billions
in the bank but everyone hates you, or would you
rather just be a regular person with average assets who
has a solid reputation, where you're able to live just
a fulfilling and happy life. And while there might be
some folks out there who might be tempted to, I
(22:14):
think truly you would know that that would not lead
to you being happy, because you know, a lot of
us here are We're keen to build wealth, right, We're
here to develop better money habits, but we obviously don't
want to do it at the expense of our integrity.
I just saw a recent survey actually showing that folks
they care more about being respected at work then they
care actually about making more money. I think there's totally
(22:37):
something to that. Even if there are, if there's like
this underlying truth that folks aren't even aware of, like
I think that those desires are pointing to like a
higher and more ultimate truth. We would all be more
than happy to get a twenty percent raise tomorrow, But
if that came alongside a boss who doesn't respect us,
or maybe who puts us down constantly, that fatter paycheck,
it is not going to keep us around very long. Ultimately,
(22:59):
it's not a the money. It's also about how we're
treated as individuals and the other things that matter in life.
You're talking, when you're talking about Kanye. It also makes
me think about just how somebody who's prideful, there are
just social barriers that get like these morays and norms
and traditions that also just get pushed to the side
with somebody who's prideful, and so feelings get hurt, bridges
(23:20):
get burned, and there are individuals who are like, all right, well,
even if that guy is like the smartest guy in
the room, or even if that guy is the most
wealthy person around, I.
Speaker 2 (23:28):
Don't like how he treats people. I don't like how
he treats me. And it makes you not necessarily want
to do business with somebody like that. We've all known
somebody who was the best at something, are just really
really good at something, but because of how prideful they are,
because of how how much of a show off they
might be, it's like we just don't want to hang
around them. And it doesn't matter that they're brilliant and
a brilliant designer or something like that. It's like, I
just I'd rather work with the second most brilliant designer
(23:51):
because the person who is the best at this is
just too tough to get along with. Mm hmm, well, okay,
so we're going to get past just the Proverbs, Matt,
But there's just really is when we're talking about old
school wisdom literature that has a lot to say to
us today about money, Proverbs is really the place to start.
We're going to get to some of the Stoics, we're
even going to get to some New Testament Christianity. But
(24:13):
something else from Proverbs twenty two real quick about death?
Speaker 1 (24:16):
Yeah, Proverbs twenty two is a good one.
Speaker 2 (24:17):
Yeah, Yeah, that's definitely one more looking at it, there's
a lot of the well verse seven says the rich
rule over the poor, and the borrower is serventh to
the lender. And yeah, we've talked about having loads of
debt how it can impact your mental faculties, right, how
debt kind of makes you dumber. The reality is, like
study show that if you're walking around up to your
eyeballs in debt, you're going to lose something like ten
(24:39):
to twelve points off your IQ. It's going to be
more difficult to make smart decisions if you're hanging onto
boat loads of debt. But of course the truth is
that when you have loads of debt, right, each paycheck
requires payments to your credits are so money that's coming
in every two weeks, well a good portion of it
is going out in order to pay the piper. And
we don't want you to be a house We don't
(25:00):
want you to be a servant to the credit card companies,
to Visa or to American Express. And that doesn't mean
that all debt is dumb either. Right. We talked about
that the strategic use of debt in episode five sixty six.
The principle I think we can extract here is that
going overboard on debt, owing too many folks too much
money creates an imbalance in your life that can put
(25:21):
you in a precarious position. And matter as we read
that little passage right that the borrower is servant to
the lender. I think sometimes that's been abused and it's
basically told people that, like, debt is not okay regardless
of circumstances. Ever, Yeah, it's been used as like a
bludgeon to hit people over the head with to see
how stupid debt is. Well, that's what we were trying
(25:42):
to avoid talking about the strategic use of debt when
we discussed it. And it makes me think of a
friend who decided to pay off his student loans, even
though based on where he was working, he was going
to be eligible to have those loans forgiven. And he
not only did he use money that he had on
hand to pay off student loan debt early that would
have been forgiven. What he opted to do was to
(26:04):
sell some of his assets, to sell some of his
investments to pay off those loans early. And now that
he stepped back from the movies made years ago, he
has a little more wisdom. He wishes he hadn't have
done it, because the truth is that debt would have
been forgiven, and on the flip side, his investments would
have seen quite an increase. And so while it is
true that the borrower is serving to the lender, there's
(26:25):
a lot of truth in that phrase. It's also, like
you said, these are rules of thumb coming from the proverbs.
It's basically wise counsel pointing us in the right direction,
not telling us exactly how to behave in every instance.
Speaker 1 (26:36):
Right. Yeah, But simultaneously, I mean, I would say that
if there is somebody out there who feels that based
on like because of principle, that they want to pay
off all debts that they owe, even though that there
is a chance of it getting forgiven. I personally would
take advantage of any sort of forgiveness program. But that
being said, I do think that folks can fall on
different sides of that fence. And while he may have
changed his mind, had he not changed his mind, and
(26:57):
in retrospect, if he was just like nope, still think
that that was a wise decision. I totally would stand
by anybody who feels that they are making the right
decision for them personally.
Speaker 2 (27:07):
Well, we've talked about that with some of our friends
or you know, guests on the show who have paid
off a mortgage early, right, and we've said that's not
that's not what we're gonna do. But it makes sense
to us from a psychological and a money perspect exactly
if that debt is frustrating you to the point where
you've got to get rid of it and you'd rather
prioritize that over other things, that's okay. But it's also
I think, yeah, there's there's wisdom here in not taking
(27:28):
this little passage as something that says like I must
sell all my possessions get to get rid of my
debt before I do anything else.
Speaker 1 (27:35):
Exactly. All right, let's talk about some fancy living. And
this is another one from Proverbs. This is from chapter
twenty one and in verse seventeen, it says that whoever
loves pleasure will become poor, whoever loves wine and olive
oil will never be rich. And craft bear does the
same thing about craft beer.
Speaker 2 (27:52):
Matt, I feel there's a there's a slight sense of
judge not judgement tradiction. Yeah, that's the I guess that's
maybe what I'm feeling a little bit, because obviously back
then wine and olive oil they were delicacies in ancient times.
Speaker 1 (28:04):
And so, yeah, is this proverb saying that you can't
like nice things? Well, no, but it is possible to
put too much emphasis on them if we say that
we love craft beer. And oftentimes I think maybe we
use the word love too often. But there's a difference
between saying that, like, oh man, I really love craft
beer versus in my heart it being something that completes
(28:25):
me and not just fancy food or drink, but anything
I think can kind of take that place in your heart.
And this one's interesting too, because I think it's a
warning to those who are successful, right, because if you
might be listening and you're thinking, well, all right, that's fine,
but I've got zero temptation to do that in my life.
I'm living paycheck to paycheck. I'm barely making enough to
pay for the essentials. Well, definitely still pay attention. But
(28:47):
this is a warning to those who are at the
stage and their wealth building game that they have a
little bit more disposable income, they have the ability, they've
got a little more margin on hand, and they're thinking, oh, well,
what am I going to spend my money on now?
And you start to spend it on some of these
nicer things, which I believe can be a slippery slope.
I think if by spending a little bit, if that
(29:08):
puts you on this path to losing control of your
spending and where it is that your money is going,
I think it's better to not have spent that money
at all on that thing and to have never experienced
this thing that could have brought you some joy in
your life if it means that you're going to see
a lot more of your money going to waste and
potentially your life even ruined as well.
Speaker 2 (29:26):
All right, makes me think of Dittio's robe. We've talked
about that on the show before. Right, the French philosopher
the ditero effect. Yeah, who gets a new robe and
for some reason everything else in his life looks tinge
like he was frugal and he gets this one nice
new piece of clothing, and then all of a sudden
he goes bankrupt, basically trying to update everything else around him.
And I think that is You're right, that's a real problem.
(29:47):
We're going to give kind of the counter balance point
to that in a little bit when we go over
some stoic advice, Matt.
Speaker 1 (29:53):
But it is true.
Speaker 2 (29:54):
I think you're right that it's easy to fall in
love with nice things, and once we've started incorporating more
nice things into our lives, it's hard for us to
go back. We assumans, we have a hard time. Once
you start getting your house clean twice a month, it's
hard to go back to once a month, right, stuff
like that. So you have to be careful about what
you bring in on the front end, and me, let's
do something else. From the Bible, from Christian tradition, this
(30:15):
is finally not in the Proverbs. This is from Luke
chapter twelve. This is a parable that Jesus tells about
storing up possessions for yourself here on earth. And this
farmer he harvests crops, and he yields just such a
bounty that he decides to not only just build bigger storehouses,
but teared on the old ones so that he can
build bigger ones in their stead and that once he
has those built and his massive harvest stored, he can
(30:39):
just eat, drink and be merry. He doesn't even have
to think about the future anymore. He's got himself set
for life. And I think there's a sense in which
maybe we all think like that, that our pursuit of
financial independence is going to allow us to not have
to rely on anyone or anything. But while Jesus is speaking,
he's basically speaking to the where we pin our eternal
(30:59):
hope in this passage. But a simple and practical lesson
behind this parable two is that life is fleeting, and
this guy, he decides to build these bigger barns that
he can store his stuff and then just chill axe right,
just rest on his laurels, hang out, sip lemonade in
his rocking chair. But the reality is that not a
single one of us knows if we're gonna wake up
(31:19):
tomorrow to enjoy the fruits of our labor. You know,
eventually we're all gonna die, which which actually, probably Matt,
makes it a good time for us to start talking
about the Stoics their wisdom because they were were kind
of hyper focused on the ultimate reality, that's all.
Speaker 1 (31:35):
Right, keeping that the eventuality of death front and center
on the tippy tops of their minds, that's right.
Speaker 2 (31:41):
Yeah, So we'll talk about some some Stoic wisdom. We'll
even get into a little bit of Buddhism, and we'll
get to we'll get to that ancient wisdom and how
it intersects with our money right after this break. All right,
now that we wrapped up that Jesus Christ Super Savior segments,
(32:04):
we can move on to the Stoics. It still cracks
me up to say that out loud. Yeah, it's a
good title, the Stoics.
Speaker 1 (32:11):
All right. So when you think about the fact that
these folks lived in ancient Greece, like like two thousand
years ago, it is impressive to hear some of the
wisdom that they possessed. And so the Stoic philosophy, it's
all about building resilience and that no matter what circumstances
you are born into that, you will grow into confidence
that you can take on anything. It's no surprise that
(32:34):
I feel like stoicism is sort of making a comeback today,
whether that's just sort of the current financial crisis or
the you know where markets are, just the kind of
world that we live in today. But there's a lot
of great truths that we can take from stoicism and
apply those two not only our lives, but to personal
finances as well.
Speaker 2 (32:52):
I think living in a time of abundance like we
have now, like there's even more necessity for self restraint.
Speaker 1 (33:00):
And the Stoics really talked about that a great deal, right, Yeah, yeah,
because at the time, like Greek civilization was at its pinnacle,
like it was at the peak, but they.
Speaker 2 (33:09):
Also realized that that partaking in that e gorging yourself
on the abundance was not bringing about that happiness ultimate fulfillment.
Speaker 1 (33:16):
Yeah, totally agree. And that's yeah, it's really interesting because
there's certainly a parallel to that today within our world
where we have the most comfort, the most information at
our fingertips as well, it's like we last.
Speaker 2 (33:28):
Wealth, even the poorest among us have more wealth. Yes,
really was imaginable throughout most of history.
Speaker 1 (33:32):
Yeah, I mean, and just the internet, like literally we
were we lack very little in our modern age, in
particular in this country.
Speaker 2 (33:39):
Yeah, for sure. So epictetis Man. He's one of the
most fascinating stoics to me, partly because he was born
into slavery and his name literally means the acquired one,
and he spent the first thirty years of his life
in chains. And he once said that wealth consists not
in having great possessions, but in having few wants. That's
(34:00):
that's the quote I remember from him most. And then Seneca,
another of the great Stoke philosopher, said that contented poverty
is an honorable estate. And I think those two quotes
really go together for me because at the heart of
both of them is the ability to be completely satisfied
with where you're at in life, even if you're lot
in life, even if the place where you are isn't
(34:20):
where you want to be, even if there's a lot
of progress left to be made. But to realize that
getting more money, more possessions, a bigger house, a nicer car,
that they're not actually going to bring fulfillment. We would
say it's wise to desire the upside of wealth without
being dependent on it. And I think it's really easy, Matt,
for us to think that once we cross a certain threshold,
whether it's net worthwise, or whether it's success in our
(34:40):
career wise, whether it's achieving the position or a certain
amount of podcast downloads or something like that, that that's
going to make you happy. The truth is, oh, it will.
The truth is once you get to that point, there's
always a next hill to climb, and so it never
does really make you happy as a human, and so
you have to find your contentedness in other places, right,
and being able to, yeah, see kind of how the
(35:00):
Stoic's travel to do it, how they thought about it,
I think can be really informative to how we start
to think about our own trajectory.
Speaker 1 (35:07):
And you know, we're constantly moving the goalposts. And so, yeah,
while you're talking about how we often seek after more possessions,
here's another banger from Seneca, which is it is the
quality rather than the quantity that matters. This is a
great one.
Speaker 2 (35:21):
Because it feels like our society it's often focused on
just acquiring more stuff, you know, like not just finding
fulfillment in those things, but just more and more. You know,
it's sort of like the bigger is better kind of mantra.
But we feel, for instance, it's way better to focus
on quality over quantity.
Speaker 1 (35:37):
We think it's better to have like quality relationships rather
than a slew of acquaintances, and spending our money on
quality items is something worth prioritizing as well, like in
a world of fast fashion and prepackaged foods, disposable toys,
a world of plastic. Basically, it's helpful to rethink our
(35:58):
spending patterns. And you know, at least for me, that's
meant buying fewer things, but oftentimes more just expensive ones
as it pertains to quality because they're going to last
for a much longer time.
Speaker 2 (36:09):
It's like those antique pieces versus the key pieces that
we talked about at the beginning.
Speaker 1 (36:12):
Exactly, and not a disparaged ikea. There's a time and
place and depending on where you are in life. But simultaneously, yeah,
I think there's a lot that can be learned not
only from buying higher quality items that are going to last,
but also the different things that we pour our time
and energy into as well.
Speaker 2 (36:29):
Yeah, are another good one from Seneca because he was
full of them. He said that until we begin to
go without them, we fail to realize how unnecessary many
things are. And I mean, that's so ridiculously true. We
would suggest that it would be helpful, a helpful exercise,
to walk through your house finding objects that you really
wanted at one point. We all have those, and then
(36:51):
things maybe you thought you couldn't live without, in order
to see whether or not they're making you happy, whether
they're paying dividends, and are you still you using that
what was a must have item?
Speaker 1 (37:02):
Are you using it regularly?
Speaker 2 (37:03):
And a good place to start would probably be your closet,
right you still have tags on those new items you
purchased months and months ago saying that you, oh, man,
I can't wait to wear this. This is going to
be the perfect piece for this in this occasion. Well so,
so many of the things we identify as needs are
actually just once right, And we would do well to
think about the things we've purchased that are actually unnecessary
(37:23):
and to keep this lesson front of mind for future purchases.
And it might even be helpful to purposely go without
some things and start to clear out some of the
items in your house you aren't using us frequently to
give away to people who who might use us things
more with more regularity. But the truth is a lot
of us have probably a lot of unnecessary things floating
around our house, things that cost us money to buy,
(37:45):
and that cost us time to produce the money. And
when the reality is that our time is our most
important asset, we have often squandered it in the pursuit
of things that aren't really moving the needle for us.
Speaker 1 (37:56):
That's right. Well, so, actually, as you're talking about being
charitable market Aurelius, he is another one of the most
famous Stoic philosophers out there. He said that the only
wealth which you keep forever is the wealth that you
have given away. And you know, I feel that we've
lost the understanding of this in our culture. You know
that always does want to have more. But it is
so true that when you, you know, give your time
(38:18):
your money away, that you do become a happier person.
Oftentimes the folks who are most generous are the ones
who I actually have the least amount of possessions. But
you know, we think that giving your money away regularly
to causes to folks or you know who you're passionate about,
who you want to see advanced in the world that
that is going to allow you to see your money
(38:39):
do good around you, also giving you a healthier relationship
with money in general.
Speaker 2 (38:44):
Yeah, we've always said that giving your money away gives
you a more healthy relationship to your money, lessening your
attachment to something that is a tool right and that
you can use for good, but that you can use
to see good happen in the world around you, specifically
through nonprofits or in generosity to individuals who are in
nearby where you live. And Matt, I want to hit
one more from Seneca, who he said, for the wise
(39:06):
man does not consider himself unworthy of any gifts from
fortune's hand. He does not love wealth, but he would
rather have it. He does not admit it into his heart,
but into his home, and what wealth is his, he
does not reject, but keeps wishing it to supply greater
scope for him to practice his virtue. And I really
love this one because, Yeah, I think you know you
(39:27):
and I we really believe that building wealth is a
good thing. Obviously, we talk about it a lot on
this on this podcast, but it's important to ask ourselves,
is our pursuit of building wealth helping us become more
of who we want to be, or is it detracting
from it? And I think at different points in my life, Matt,
I've found that my attempts at building well, I've been
so focused on the money side of my life that
(39:48):
I've been missing out on things that are actually more important.
And I think what Seneca is speaking to here. He's
talking about not letting the wealth we acquire get too
close to our hearts, influencing and changing who we are.
And so I think you can do both those things simultaneously.
I think I think you can rather have wealth, like
he says, without loving it, but keeping keeping wealth really
(40:08):
in a healthy spot in your life, where it is
something that you are keen to build, keen to preserve,
but that gets demoted down the list of biggest priorities
in your life.
Speaker 1 (40:18):
Yeah, man, I love the casualness of it. You know,
he would rather have it. He does not love money.
Speaker 2 (40:23):
There's this sort of like not lase fair approach, but
just kind of like a casual, open handed It's not
something that you're clinging to, it's not something that you're
striving after, it's not ambivalence. Somewhere in between there right, Yeah, yeah, exactly.
Speaker 1 (40:36):
So we've said a lot, We've quoted a bunch from Seneca,
but he also talks about the like what is the
proper amount of wealth for an individual to have? And
he says, first of all, it's having enough money that
you're able to cover the essential things in life. But
then secondly, it's just simply having enough, which I love
because it man, it's like a double edged shore because
(40:57):
what that means is that pretty much anybody listening to
this can decide right now that they have enough. You
just have to decide that. But again, you can flip
that on its head though, because there might be somebody
who would always say that, like, well I don't have enough,
and it could always be this thing that they're striving
after where they are just wanting more and.
Speaker 2 (41:15):
More and meeting the beast exactly. Yeah, And so I
think there's a lot of power there. But basically, I
think what Seneca is getting at is the ability for
us to rein in our behavior and how it is
that we view and perceive and pursue money. It comes
down to us as individuals. I don't think there's there's
not like necessarily a right or wrong amount of money,
(41:37):
But it's all about how it is that we do
the dang thing. Yeah, that reminds me of another saying
that my mom used to say back that speaking of
ancient wisdom. Mat She's not that old, but she would
always she would always tell me that, how like, it's
not what you say, it's how you say it.
Speaker 1 (41:53):
Yeah, And there's it matters so much truth.
Speaker 2 (41:55):
To it, right that that it is how. It's not
the words that are coming out of her mouth. It's
the way in which you were treating someone, why you
say it, and whether you're saying it with like anger
or whether you're saying it out of love. It's people
perceive that, and so much of the same is true.
I think when it comes to how we handle our
money and the way in which we go about it matters.
(42:18):
And I don't know, there's this concept in Buddhism called
the middle way. I think that's worth mentioning here too. Basically,
it's this call to avoid extremes and the realities. We
live in a society that is incredibly polarized, which I
would say makes it easier said than done. Right, we're
kind of fighting uphill to live in a way that's
(42:40):
different from our modern culture, from popular culture. You know,
political views are fears. Money views can be as well.
You know, on that front, Matt makes me think of
the Fire Movement. It's kind of an extreme way to
view your money. True, it's not that aren't great principles
there and great people in the movement. But we've also
said that, you and I we've also always really talked
about kind of a middle way that would focus not
(43:01):
on depriving yourself but also not over indulging. And that's
just constantly what we're trying to espouse here is balance, basically,
this middle way with your finances, enjoying the here and
now while realizing that money is a piece of the puzzle,
while saving investing wisely for your future. And it is
not the easiest thing to get right. I think it's
(43:22):
a pendulum that is constantly swinging because we as humans,
we never really kind of find the sweet spot and
stay there. We're always kind of on the march to
be in that sweet spot. And so it's okay to
see that in yourself, because I think anybody who's trying
to be decent with their money sees that in their
own lives, right that at times they are too frugal,
and at other times they might prioritize investing for the
(43:44):
future more than they should. They should enjoy some of
the fruits in their labor in the here and now,
and that maybe you might think after hearing us talk
about this, Oh man, I haven't really thought about giving
my money away at all, And maybe it's a good
time for you to reconsider. Well, maybe you're too attached
to your money, and it would be a good idea
to look for ways to give of what you've been
given to care for those around you, people who have
(44:07):
more need than you do. But Matt, it's just fun
to kind of go over some of these these ancient quotes,
some of these ancient texts to gain wisdom, because there
are a lot of deep and beautiful truths here that
I think, like we can all run through the filter
of modern life and kind of start to make different
choices with how we think about how we approach our money.
Speaker 1 (44:27):
Totally. Yeah, And it's not lost on us too that
we barely just touched on like Buddhism, in any tradition,
that some of the Eastern, yeah, like Eastern traditions as
opposed to most of what we talked about today was
kind of more from the Western tradition.
Speaker 2 (44:39):
We'll speaking to things that we're more familiar with at least,
but there's a lot more we could dive in there is.
Speaker 1 (44:43):
Yeah, for sure, I could totally see us doing an
entirely new episode where we do dive into some of
those Eastern traditions and some of the wisdom that can
be garnered there and how it is that we can
apply that to our money. So yeah, maybe look out
for that one in the future. But Joel, we're going
to go ahead and shift to our beer that you
and I enjoy. This was Apricot Crumble. This is a
beer by Vitamin C Brewing. What were your thoughts on
(45:05):
this one, dude?
Speaker 2 (45:05):
Yeah, I feel like, actually a month or so ago,
I got a pie from one of our local pie
making shops and it tastes a lot like this one.
It was so good and the beer was delicious as well.
It's like the apricots came through nicely. I think ours
was a peach crumble, but apricots are like a little sweeter,
have just like a little more tartness going on. This
one had like some of the fresh crust vibes as
(45:27):
well going on with like a dash of cinnamon in
there to go along with it. So this definitely tasted
like the beer version of a delicious pie, and I guess.
Speaker 1 (45:37):
I like it a lot. Yeah, I liked it as well,
So it wasn't so we've had some of the beers
by a humble forager. It also makes me think of
tripping animals, where all all of their beers are in
the style, but they're often just boozier and they're just
just way thicker, a lot heavier. And this was a
similar style, but they didn't get too crazy with it.
I felt that they kept the amount of sweetness in
(45:58):
check where it felt like it was not quite ripe
apricot right like it was a little bit tart, like
maybe you had like a slight amount of crunch as
opposed to where you're looking at it. Because the best fruit,
like the sweetest fruit, it never looks good right like.
You look at it and you think, oh, should I
toss that? But then you wash it and eat it
and you're like, oh my gosh, this is like the sweetest,
(46:18):
most delicious ripe fruit that I've ever had. I feel
like this one tasted like an apricot that looked real nice,
which awesome meant that was a little bit tart. Yeah,
but it totally had some of those crumble crust notes
going on. Some of that. I think there's like some
of that lactose in it as well. It made it
taste nice and creamy. It was really enjoyable, and I
don't think we've ever actually had a beer by Vitamin
(46:39):
C before. But yeah, I'm glad that you were able
to pick this one up and we were able to
share it during this episode, no doubt. I'm me too.
Speaker 2 (46:45):
It was a good one. But that's going to do
it for this episode. Don't forget to sign up for
the how to Money newsletter on our website at hodamoney
dot com. Slash newsletter makes sense, right, It'll show up
into your inbox every Tuesday morning, hopefully giving you a
nice chuckle along with some good money information. But Matt,
that's going to do it for this episode. Until next time,
Best Friends Out, Best Friends Out,
What's going on, buddy? Hey man, So we're almost back.
We just spent like fifteen minutes recapping all the countless
stories that we have regarding our travels, the good and
the bad, to each other, not to our audience. But
what's what's funny is that we had to we needed
to jump back into the office to record a couple
ad spots. We're just you know, we're trying to be
(00:20):
team players there for the network. It's tough to go
m I A for multiple weeks. Yes, yeah, but we are.
We figured, hey, how about a quick little intro and uh, the.
Speaker 2 (00:29):
Honest truth is, nothing has happened while we're gone. No
big bills have passed. No fascinating.
Speaker 1 (00:34):
I think the pause while we're going right exactly? The
world revolve around how the money?
Speaker 2 (00:39):
There's there's so much to discuss upon our return, which
comes Wednesday. So if you're listening to this now, this
is our last bestie and we look forward to being
back with you. And actually Wednesday's episode is going to
be a recap of our sabbatical, what we've learned, what
we've taken away from from this time off. Matt, I
know for you it's been resortive for me too, So
forward to it. Man, a lot of interesting insights that
(00:59):
I'm looking forward to discussing with our audience on Wednesday.
Welcome to How the Money. I'm Joel and I am Matt,
and today we're talking about Jesus Christ, Super Saber, ancient wisdom,
and your money. So this is not our Andrew Lloyd
(01:32):
Weber version of seventies rock play or did you have
you ever seen Jesus Christ Super sar I have never
seen it.
Speaker 1 (01:40):
So now, but it is a good one.
Speaker 2 (01:43):
And we took inspiration from that title for this episode.
Absolutely and okay, so like not to launch into the
proverbial phrases too soon, But who it is that you
listen to will determine who it is that you become.
And so if you're listening listening to our podcast, you
listen to Joel and Matt talk about money, I think
there's a good chance you're gonna end up in a
maybe in a similar place as us, at least financially speaking,
(02:06):
compared to the rest of the world. Right, Like, certainly they're.
Speaker 1 (02:08):
Gonna be differences between our finances and your finances. But
who it is that we listen to, what we fill
our minds with truly does have a massive impact on
our future.
Speaker 2 (02:17):
Garbage and garbage out, all of these things that determine
your future. And so that's why we're essentially like revisiting
some of these seriously ancient truths and specifically we're gonna
look at how it is that they pertain to your money.
We're gonna talk about the moves that you can make
and how this ancient wisdom can inform those moves. Yeah,
and we're going to tap some biblical wisdom. We're gonna
(02:38):
tap some of the Stoics or thus the Jesus Christ
part exactly exactly, and we're gonna go out about doing
like we're gonna get Old Testament with Jesus Christ Buddha
in a Stoic walk into a bar kind of. But
we figured that started getting getting a little too long.
That was a little more heretical as well. Another title
idea for this episode, but I like what we went with.
But yeah, so hopefully in today's episode will cover a
(02:58):
bunch of ground. And I think Matt, especially in a
time where we rely on a lot of modern wisdom, well,
we thought it could be helpful to yeah, bring bring
out some ancient wisdom at the same time.
Speaker 1 (03:10):
That's right, man, Okay, real quick, I've got a frugal
or cheap for you. A couple of weeks ago, some
friends of ours were throwing a party and this was
an adult's only party, so no kids allowed. So this
was after you put the kids down to bed kind
of thing. Oh yeah, no, I was definitely looking forward
to it. It was like creepy Tom cruise parties.
Speaker 2 (03:29):
Is not that kind of not an eyes wide shut
whatever party, but a normal grown ups, adult party. And
specifically I failed to mention this. These were some neighbors
of ours directly across the street, and this raised the
question as to whether or not we should get a babysitter.
(03:50):
Maybe it led to a discussion. It wasn't an all
out argument, but we got close. We were discussing it,
and I felt that because it was going to just
be across the street, and because we have.
Speaker 1 (03:59):
An older daughter now, that it was going to be
totally fine for us to put the kids down walk
across the street. Literally, we're gonna My idea was a
set up an iPad and if anything comes up, they
can just facetimeless. They all know how to use the iPad.
But you see where this is going. Kate disagreed with me.
So what are your thoughts? Do you feel that I
was being frugal or cheap by counting on our kids
(04:22):
to report if there was anything going on?
Speaker 2 (04:24):
Oh well, I don't know, man, I'm somewhere in the
I think probably it's frugal. I think if you're across
the street, I think you could buy without a babysitter,
especially since you have a nine year old who's just
pretty smart.
Speaker 1 (04:36):
She's pretty good. I mean, all the kids are pretty smart.
Held down the fort and plus if it was like
a real emergency and let's say the technology failed, they
could just like right across the street. Like literally, we
were right there. Kate disagreed, and I think she knew
before we ended the conferce, like we never reached a conclusion.
And then the next time I brought it up, she's like, oh,
we've got a babysitter. And I mean truly, in the end,
(04:58):
I was like, all right, that's fine. I was willing
to pay a babysitter because it meant that she was
going to be able to relax, maybe have just a
better time. But that also kind of raises another question.
At what age would you feel comfortable leaving your oldest to,
like you said, hold down the fort Yeah, uh, not
necessarily just within the neighborhood, because it depends on distance.
It depends on to be gone, because I would trust
(05:20):
her now probably going across the street for an hour
because they she would know where we were. But part
of it, I don't know what.
Speaker 2 (05:26):
Age, because part of so much of it depends on
how much sure she is right individual and so yeah,
how depends your circumstances with her younger siblings, especially as
they grow up, like can they listen to her? And
will they will they obey? So well, I don't know,
but I will say I think you guys, you did
mention that you expanded your budget for babysitting services, which
I think is which I think is smart that you
(05:47):
you've basically called out in your budget you've prioritized being
able to go out the two of you, and so
you probably wish you would have used it on uh
what different sort of day because you kind of think
that there's a way that you can do both at
the same time. Because I see the ability to a
hang out with some friends and be also not spend
the money because they're just right there. And again this
was we would have put them down, so they would
(06:08):
have been for the most part, especially the younger ones,
either as sleep or just reading quietly in their bed as.
Speaker 1 (06:13):
They peacefully drifted off to sleep while we were hanging
out across the street.
Speaker 2 (06:17):
What I think the other right thing to do is
if it's that big of a deal to your significant other,
you said it was, yeah, all right, I guess well,
I'm not going to be It would be cheap then,
because it would make her upset and she would not
be able to enjoy her time. And so yeah, you
got to think about that as well, not just whether
you feel comfortable with it, but whether they feel comfortable
with it.
Speaker 1 (06:34):
To your partner as well, I think yeah, speaking of
ancient wisdom, better defer to your partner, to your spouse.
Speaker 2 (06:40):
What happy wife, happy life is always what I've heard,
but school it has some truth.
Speaker 1 (06:46):
To it, Yeah it does. This is called sour Pipe
Project Apricot Crumble. This is a beer by Vitamin C Brewing.
And it's not vitamin C as in like vitamin AB
vitamin C. It's vitamin C as vitamin ocean. So I'm
looking forward to this brewery who happens to be located
by the ocean. We'll share our thoughts at the end
(07:07):
of the episode. Very nice, all R.
Speaker 2 (07:09):
Yeah, I'm looking forward to checking this out. Any anything
that beer that tastes like a pie, I want to
try it, so.
Speaker 1 (07:15):
Fruited sours, lactose or pastry sours yea in particular. Yeah,
looking forward to it. All right, Well, Matt, let's let's
move on. Let's get to the subject at hand. We
are talking about ancient wisdom in this episode, and you
know it. As I thought about this, I was thinking, well,
what is it today that most of us use someone
regularly but it falls short of kind of what we're
(07:36):
used to.
Speaker 2 (07:36):
Maybe quality has gone down the hill, and maybe kind
of maybe think of Akia for some reason, Like I
thought you're.
Speaker 1 (07:42):
Gonna say, lead pipes, they'll make them like they use
true the brass knuckles. They're not, you know, quite as
thick as they used to be. Well, brass knuckles. I'm
not thinking.
Speaker 2 (07:51):
I'm not talking about like gang fights. I'm thinking about
like actual pipes. Well, in your plummus, that's making a joke,
because lead pipes were terrible.
Speaker 1 (07:58):
Yeah they were.
Speaker 2 (07:59):
I thought you were like, talk about those chains someone
over the head with one.
Speaker 1 (08:03):
But and you got you got your mind on what
was that motile game road rash Sega genesis. That's the
kind of lead pipe you're thinking of. That that's exactly what.
I don't know why, but uh yeah, he chose violence.
Speaker 2 (08:16):
But I'm thinking about Ikea, and I'm thinking, like, we
have a few Ikea pieces in our house. Mostly we
do too for storage in our kids room. They're basically
like the cheap bookshelves, right, But nothing I've encountered in
Ikea as I'm walking through there has ever come close
to the beauty and the sturdiness that our favorite antique
(08:37):
furniture pieces that we have in our house possessed. Right.
I love my Brazilian rosewood table. Yeah, we have a
mid century teak desk. I didn't know you're so wealthy.
They're not even terribly expensive. We have seventy year old
walnut dressers. Matthew, you're just you're just bragging life of opulence.
Speaker 1 (08:55):
Yes, it's true, and and rich mahogany, the smell of leather.
Speaker 2 (08:59):
Yes, but these are pieces we planned to have forever,
and they were not even terribly expensive pieces.
Speaker 1 (09:04):
To begin with.
Speaker 2 (09:05):
But they're a far cry from let's say, the Ikio
wardrobe that crumbled when we tried to move it that
one time. I swear we paid fifty dollars for that.
It lasted for a couple of years in the house.
We tried to move it and it basically disintegrated in
front of our eyes. Well, you know, and that could
just just evaporates, right, yes, where did it go? Teleported
to another realm? It's like the snap I knows right well,
(09:27):
And that could just be maybe because our skills with
an alan rent aren't very good, and so it lasts
for a minute.
Speaker 1 (09:32):
But I don't know.
Speaker 2 (09:33):
I think it made me think that no one really
ever gets jazzed about inheriting their parents' callax shelving unit
or something like that. Right, But that one hundred year
old mahogany chest, that's a different story. It's like this
family heirloom, and the way it's crafted and made is
you might be thrilled to get that one of these days.
And I think the same is true when it comes
to modern advice. Right, there's some good stuff out there,
(09:54):
but the best of it is actually based on ancient
wisdom that has stood the test of time, and so
we want to really talk about older money advice that's
been around for hundreds and hundreds of years. Delve into
that and see maybe what it has to say to
us today.
Speaker 1 (10:08):
Yeah yeah, so, okay, I'm not on TikTok, but I've
seen some of the videos that are out there that
masquerade as financial advice that's flitting around there on the platform,
out there in the ether. And if you are only
listening to folks on TikTok, for instance, there's a lot
of wisdom that you're missing out on when we only
pay attention to, you know, like influencers on some of
the different social media platforms. And that's not to say
(10:31):
that there aren't solid folks out there who are doing
decent work in the short form format. There definitely are.
But the best wisdom, the best advice, stands the test
of time, like you said, And you know, we're not
just picking on social media as well. There's crappy financial
advice even in legacy media, you know, like the more
traditional forms of media.
Speaker 2 (10:48):
Oh, even in some of the bigger papers, the TV papers, blogs.
There's bad books out there as.
Speaker 1 (10:52):
Well, just because you get a publishing deal or you
self published, that doesn't necessarily mean that there is good
advice within that book, within the text. So in today's episode,
we're gonna be pulling from the Bible. We're gonna be
talking about Stoicism and just some of these other wisdom
traditions from hundreds to thousands of years before time, and
then we'll connect that ancient wisdom to like a modern
(11:16):
implementation in order to help you to determine what it
is that you should be doing with your money.
Speaker 2 (11:21):
Yeah, and you just mentioned books, Matt, and it makes
me think like most of the books that people read
these days are actually new books, right, and yet we
have so many rich books from years and years and
years ago that we just never even touched. And I
subscribe to this newsletter actually, it's called read More Books,
(11:41):
and this guy, Jeremy Anderberg runs it and he reads
one hundred plus books a year, and so I just
kind of want to, you know, as somebody who's an
avid reader who writes a newsletter about it, I'm constantly curious, well,
what is it that he's reading and maybe is there
something worth reading for me? And he just wrote a
top ten list that includes some of his takeaways from
having read more than a thousand books, which is impressive.
(12:02):
And one suggestion that he gave, which I thought was
just helpful, was to not read the new shiny books
that get marketed to us, to spend more time with
the classics. And I think he's spot on there. I
couldn't agree more. I think the same is true when
it comes to helpful thoughts on money right there are,
like you admitted, Matt, some great personal finance influencers giving
(12:22):
really helpful advice on some of the socials on Twitter,
on Instagram, whatever it is. But the more we can
incorporate ancient wisdom alongside folks who are good at translating
it for modern ears, the more thorough our understanding and
connection to this subject that has this massive impact, this
massive influence on all of us is going to be.
Speaker 1 (12:41):
And it's not necessarily that old books are automatically good
or wise or better. It's important to be are automatically dustier.
But we want folks to be thoughtful about which ancient
wisdom texts that we look at, that we read, that
we listen to. Makes me think about a book that
we've been checking out that came out recently called superabundance.
(13:01):
Speaking of newer books, this is a newer book, but
it's a quality book and it's pretty nerdy. It's written
by two economists, but at the beginning of the book,
they're basically going through some of these different economists views
of how humanity would progress over the These are predictions
that were made, like, I mean, hundreds of.
Speaker 2 (13:18):
Years ago, sixteen, seventeen hundred stuff.
Speaker 1 (13:20):
Yeah, yeah, most of them were way off. We're seriously off.
And they often thought that the earth was becoming overpopulated
and that we would basically run out of resources, that
civilization would collapse. And that's often referred to as the
Malthusian view because Thomas Robert Malthus perhaps I think that's
his middle name, he was the most famous person arguing
(13:42):
from that vantage point. But this, you know, this book
is all about just how wrong his views have come
to be over the years. You know, instead of fewer resources,
we've got Malthusian refutation.
Speaker 2 (13:53):
Yes, yeah, we've got more resources these days. Instead of
fewer calories per person that are available to us now,
food is it's widely plentiful, even if some of those
resources aren't being properly matched to those who need it
in the immediate short term could go on and on.
Human ingenuity has just proven to overcome these resource limitations,
(14:14):
and so, you know, while we are certainly critical of
a lot of the modern advice that is dispensed today,
it's important to question the validity of old advice as well.
Don't just take it as cannon. Don't don't just take
it as you know, truth, just because it was written
to three hundred plus years ago. And in fact, depending
on what topic you're delving into there, there's probably a
(14:35):
lot that's changed scientifically, geographically, like our understanding, a lot
of things that we've developed, and so you don't want
to go back that far.
Speaker 1 (14:42):
But yeah, if you're a doctor, don't look back at
some of the old texts like blood letting. Hell, how
that should be something that we don't.
Speaker 2 (14:48):
Go watch snake and then perform surgery like that, Like
that's not that's probably not a good approach. But one
of the reasons that ancient wisdom often holds up is
because even though the times have changed, human nature hasn't.
And even though our financial systems and the products that
are available to us wouldn't have been recognizable even just
a couple hundred years ago. The emotions that humans possess
(15:09):
remain just as true and consistent as ever. Even though
there are better tools at our disposal, we still have
a hard time using them appropriately and effectively because scarcity, jealousy, greed, like,
people were dealing with all those things, all those emotions
thousands of years ago. But it's not like we've been
able to eradicate them in any way form more fashion like.
We're still dealing with them today just as much, if
(15:30):
not more so. And so, yeah, some things never change
because human nature never really changes. And this is also
why we're able to take a neutral stance when it
comes to, you know, whether or not something like money
is a good or bad thing. Right, It's not inherently
either one of those things, because it comes down to
what the individual is doing with that money. You can
you can use the tool for good or for bad,
(15:51):
but it all comes down really to how you wield it.
Speaker 1 (15:54):
That's right. Yeah, money is not inherently virtuous, right, it
is a completely passive tool. So we're gonna go back
even for though than just some of the economists and
predictions that were made a few hundred years ago, we're
gonna go back further. We're gonna focus less on economists
and their ilk. We're more interested in these time tested
passages from literally from millennia past that ring true then
(16:14):
but also have a similar residence today. We're going to
talk about how those truths apply to your money. We'll
get to that right after this break. All right, Matt,
let's keep going with us. Let's talk money in ancient wisdom,
and maybe let's start with the Hebrew Bible in fact,
(16:37):
where specifically there's a lot of proverbs that speak to money,
and they speak to a life well lived. And the
thing is, you don't have to be Jewish or be
a Christian to gain value from the wisdom, the copious
amounts of wisdom that spring from the sixty six books
in the Bible, the books in the Old Testament, or
as the Hebrew Bible. Right, And the reality is that
(17:01):
our whole society is infused with Judeo Christian ethics. They
form the basis of much of our cultural reality. Our
country was largely founded on a lot of those ethical citations.
Are our legal structures as well that govern our country today.
Speaker 2 (17:17):
Right, But I think it can be hard for us
to see that because it's the water we swim in
and we're like, what's water.
Speaker 1 (17:23):
Well, it is truly.
Speaker 2 (17:25):
Kind of all around us, So it can be hard
if you're not looking for it to see that it's
kind of the reality of the world around us in
so many ways, and that much of the wisdom from
those traditions kind of feels less accessible to us today.
Speaker 1 (17:38):
And I think it's.
Speaker 2 (17:39):
Because our nation isn't nearly as steeped in the wisdom
literature from these two monotheistic religions, not nearly as much
as we used to be, at least sure, And that's
not We're not no judgment here, but we do think
that religious or not, spending more time with these books
can help us better understand ourselves, the people around us,
and the society that we living. And we think that
(18:01):
spending some time with the Proverbs, with some of this
wisdom literature can help us understand money better too.
Speaker 1 (18:07):
Yeah. You know what's really interesting is I bet there
are a lot of folks out there who know way
more Bible verses than they realize because they just thought
that they were just staying that their grandma said. You know,
they're like, grandma was so wise and it's like, well,
I think she was wise, but I think she also
just knew the Bible, or she knew a lot of
verses and.
Speaker 2 (18:25):
Was in touch with ancient wisdom more than we are.
Speaker 1 (18:27):
Now exactly exactly, and so like one that kind of
falls within that vein is Proverbs chapter sixteen, verse eighteen,
which is pride goes before destruction, a haughty spirit before
the fall. I think a lot of times in my
mind at Lea's always shortened that one to like pride
goes before the fall. Yeah, but in reality it's, uh, yeah,
it's not quite that one.
Speaker 2 (18:45):
Let's just abbreviate that monern wisdom or the ancient wisdom
that it's a yeah, the how to money translation. Proverbs
is just one of those books though that it's it's
considered wisdom literature. And instead of these the card and
fast rules of what you can and can't.
Speaker 1 (19:00):
Do, they're more like rules of thumb. And this one
is it's basically stating that the more prideful we are,
the more likely we are to end up in a
bad place. You know. Like we actually had an episode
not too long ago where we talked about the characteristics
of great investors and humility that was up there as
one of the most important characteristics that we that we
think folks should embody when it comes to getting far
(19:21):
with their money. And because the fact is that we're
too prideful to take important helpful advice or for just
even unwilling to admit that we don't know everything, there's
a good chance that it's gonna wreck havoc within our lives.
Speaker 2 (19:33):
Yeah, I don't know. Maybe can we give kind of
a modern example of this match. I think maybe that'll
help connect the dots.
Speaker 1 (19:38):
Well, plenty of examples of their side in our world today,
there's so many.
Speaker 2 (19:42):
Yes, I mean, we could spend the whole rest of
the episode giving examples, but I just made me think
of everyone's good friend. Kanye West was on CNBC recently
talking about his breakup with The Gap, and you know,
he has helped the Gap be I guess more successful,
which is not just that's not saying a whole lot
because The Gap has been pretty pathetic for whole lot
of years now. But yeah, they have now parted ways,
(20:04):
and so yeah, Kanye was on CNBC and he basically
told the host that he refuses to take advice from
people who have less money than he does. And of
course the interviewer, she was pretty speechless because that's just odd.
But that's Kanye for you, right, And I don't know,
but his response to me it was telling because he
thinks he's the only guy in the room who knows
what he's doing. He thinks he's the most talented. And
(20:26):
when you think of yourself in that way, you're a
bound to make bigger mistakes at some point. And whether
that's because there truly is someone who has more knowledge
than you do, maybe it's because they're simply able to
provide a different perspective, or maybe it has more to
do with the social impacts of someone who's prideful. Right
either way, like to say that you can't accept advice
from someone who is less financially successful than you are,
(20:49):
to me, reflects a pretty prideful spirits and a lack
of realizing that we can learn from all sorts of
people around us, Like you know what, I could learn
something from Kanye, even despite his kind of erratic behavior.
And the more that we are on the lookout for
wisdom from the mouths of others, I think the better
off we're going to be.
Speaker 1 (21:08):
That's right, man. Yeah, let's keep moving. Then let's snag
another one from Proverbs. This is from chapter twenty two.
Verse one reads, A good name is more desirable than
great riches, to be esteemed is better than silver or gold.
And so basically what this one is saying is that
money is not everything. So you kind of gave Kanye
as an example, which he.
Speaker 2 (21:28):
Always did a Sunday service thing. I feel like we
could go there and read somebody.
Speaker 1 (21:32):
Because he found Jesus according maybe he has, maybe he hasn't.
I don't know. That's not for me to decide or
to judge. But you gave him as an example. My
mind kind of drifts off to somebody else who basically
completely ruined the reputation, which is Bernie made off. Let's
imagine that even though he had done all the terrible
things he didn't Let's imagine that he had somehow avoided
(21:53):
going to jail, he had managed to hang on to
all his money. Would you rather be the guy or
the girl with ludicrous, ridiculous amounts of money got billions
in the bank but everyone hates you, or would you
rather just be a regular person with average assets who
has a solid reputation, where you're able to live just
a fulfilling and happy life. And while there might be
some folks out there who might be tempted to, I
(22:14):
think truly you would know that that would not lead
to you being happy, because you know, a lot of
us here are We're keen to build wealth, right, We're
here to develop better money habits, but we obviously don't
want to do it at the expense of our integrity.
I just saw a recent survey actually showing that folks
they care more about being respected at work then they
care actually about making more money. I think there's totally
(22:37):
something to that. Even if there are, if there's like
this underlying truth that folks aren't even aware of, like
I think that those desires are pointing to like a
higher and more ultimate truth. We would all be more
than happy to get a twenty percent raise tomorrow, But
if that came alongside a boss who doesn't respect us,
or maybe who puts us down constantly, that fatter paycheck,
it is not going to keep us around very long. Ultimately,
(22:59):
it's not a the money. It's also about how we're
treated as individuals and the other things that matter in life.
You're talking, when you're talking about Kanye. It also makes
me think about just how somebody who's prideful, there are
just social barriers that get like these morays and norms
and traditions that also just get pushed to the side
with somebody who's prideful, and so feelings get hurt, bridges
(23:20):
get burned, and there are individuals who are like, all right, well,
even if that guy is like the smartest guy in
the room, or even if that guy is the most
wealthy person around, I.
Speaker 2 (23:28):
Don't like how he treats people. I don't like how
he treats me. And it makes you not necessarily want
to do business with somebody like that. We've all known
somebody who was the best at something, are just really
really good at something, but because of how prideful they are,
because of how how much of a show off they
might be, it's like we just don't want to hang
around them. And it doesn't matter that they're brilliant and
a brilliant designer or something like that. It's like, I
just I'd rather work with the second most brilliant designer
(23:51):
because the person who is the best at this is
just too tough to get along with. Mm hmm, well, okay,
so we're going to get past just the Proverbs, Matt,
But there's just really is when we're talking about old
school wisdom literature that has a lot to say to
us today about money, Proverbs is really the place to start.
We're going to get to some of the Stoics, we're
even going to get to some New Testament Christianity. But
(24:13):
something else from Proverbs twenty two real quick about death?
Speaker 1 (24:16):
Yeah, Proverbs twenty two is a good one.
Speaker 2 (24:17):
Yeah, Yeah, that's definitely one more looking at it, there's
a lot of the well verse seven says the rich
rule over the poor, and the borrower is serventh to
the lender. And yeah, we've talked about having loads of
debt how it can impact your mental faculties, right, how
debt kind of makes you dumber. The reality is, like
study show that if you're walking around up to your
eyeballs in debt, you're going to lose something like ten
(24:39):
to twelve points off your IQ. It's going to be
more difficult to make smart decisions if you're hanging onto
boat loads of debt. But of course the truth is
that when you have loads of debt, right, each paycheck
requires payments to your credits are so money that's coming
in every two weeks, well a good portion of it
is going out in order to pay the piper. And
we don't want you to be a house We don't
(25:00):
want you to be a servant to the credit card companies,
to Visa or to American Express. And that doesn't mean
that all debt is dumb either. Right. We talked about
that the strategic use of debt in episode five sixty six.
The principle I think we can extract here is that
going overboard on debt, owing too many folks too much
money creates an imbalance in your life that can put
(25:21):
you in a precarious position. And matter as we read
that little passage right that the borrower is servant to
the lender. I think sometimes that's been abused and it's
basically told people that, like, debt is not okay regardless
of circumstances. Ever, Yeah, it's been used as like a
bludgeon to hit people over the head with to see
how stupid debt is. Well, that's what we were trying
(25:42):
to avoid talking about the strategic use of debt when
we discussed it. And it makes me think of a
friend who decided to pay off his student loans, even
though based on where he was working, he was going
to be eligible to have those loans forgiven. And he
not only did he use money that he had on
hand to pay off student loan debt early that would
have been forgiven. What he opted to do was to
(26:04):
sell some of his assets, to sell some of his
investments to pay off those loans early. And now that
he stepped back from the movies made years ago, he
has a little more wisdom. He wishes he hadn't have
done it, because the truth is that debt would have
been forgiven, and on the flip side, his investments would
have seen quite an increase. And so while it is
true that the borrower is serving to the lender, there's
(26:25):
a lot of truth in that phrase. It's also, like
you said, these are rules of thumb coming from the proverbs.
It's basically wise counsel pointing us in the right direction,
not telling us exactly how to behave in every instance.
Speaker 1 (26:36):
Right. Yeah, But simultaneously, I mean, I would say that
if there is somebody out there who feels that based
on like because of principle, that they want to pay
off all debts that they owe, even though that there
is a chance of it getting forgiven. I personally would
take advantage of any sort of forgiveness program. But that
being said, I do think that folks can fall on
different sides of that fence. And while he may have
changed his mind, had he not changed his mind, and
(26:57):
in retrospect, if he was just like nope, still think
that that was a wise decision. I totally would stand
by anybody who feels that they are making the right
decision for them personally.
Speaker 2 (27:07):
Well, we've talked about that with some of our friends
or you know, guests on the show who have paid
off a mortgage early, right, and we've said that's not
that's not what we're gonna do. But it makes sense
to us from a psychological and a money perspect exactly
if that debt is frustrating you to the point where
you've got to get rid of it and you'd rather
prioritize that over other things, that's okay. But it's also
I think, yeah, there's there's wisdom here in not taking
(27:28):
this little passage as something that says like I must
sell all my possessions get to get rid of my
debt before I do anything else.
Speaker 1 (27:35):
Exactly. All right, let's talk about some fancy living. And
this is another one from Proverbs. This is from chapter
twenty one and in verse seventeen, it says that whoever
loves pleasure will become poor, whoever loves wine and olive
oil will never be rich. And craft bear does the
same thing about craft beer.
Speaker 2 (27:52):
Matt, I feel there's a there's a slight sense of
judge not judgement tradiction. Yeah, that's the I guess that's
maybe what I'm feeling a little bit, because obviously back
then wine and olive oil they were delicacies in ancient times.
Speaker 1 (28:04):
And so, yeah, is this proverb saying that you can't
like nice things? Well, no, but it is possible to
put too much emphasis on them if we say that
we love craft beer. And oftentimes I think maybe we
use the word love too often. But there's a difference
between saying that, like, oh man, I really love craft
beer versus in my heart it being something that completes
(28:25):
me and not just fancy food or drink, but anything
I think can kind of take that place in your heart.
And this one's interesting too, because I think it's a
warning to those who are successful, right, because if you
might be listening and you're thinking, well, all right, that's fine,
but I've got zero temptation to do that in my life.
I'm living paycheck to paycheck. I'm barely making enough to
pay for the essentials. Well, definitely still pay attention. But
(28:47):
this is a warning to those who are at the
stage and their wealth building game that they have a
little bit more disposable income, they have the ability, they've
got a little more margin on hand, and they're thinking, oh, well,
what am I going to spend my money on now?
And you start to spend it on some of these
nicer things, which I believe can be a slippery slope.
I think if by spending a little bit, if that
(29:08):
puts you on this path to losing control of your
spending and where it is that your money is going,
I think it's better to not have spent that money
at all on that thing and to have never experienced
this thing that could have brought you some joy in
your life if it means that you're going to see
a lot more of your money going to waste and
potentially your life even ruined as well.
Speaker 2 (29:26):
All right, makes me think of Dittio's robe. We've talked
about that on the show before. Right, the French philosopher
the ditero effect. Yeah, who gets a new robe and
for some reason everything else in his life looks tinge
like he was frugal and he gets this one nice
new piece of clothing, and then all of a sudden
he goes bankrupt, basically trying to update everything else around him.
And I think that is You're right, that's a real problem.
(29:47):
We're going to give kind of the counter balance point
to that in a little bit when we go over
some stoic advice, Matt.
Speaker 1 (29:53):
But it is true.
Speaker 2 (29:54):
I think you're right that it's easy to fall in
love with nice things, and once we've started incorporating more
nice things into our lives, it's hard for us to
go back. We assumans, we have a hard time. Once
you start getting your house clean twice a month, it's
hard to go back to once a month, right, stuff
like that. So you have to be careful about what
you bring in on the front end, and me, let's
do something else. From the Bible, from Christian tradition, this
(30:15):
is finally not in the Proverbs. This is from Luke
chapter twelve. This is a parable that Jesus tells about
storing up possessions for yourself here on earth. And this
farmer he harvests crops, and he yields just such a
bounty that he decides to not only just build bigger storehouses,
but teared on the old ones so that he can
build bigger ones in their stead and that once he
has those built and his massive harvest stored, he can
(30:39):
just eat, drink and be merry. He doesn't even have
to think about the future anymore. He's got himself set
for life. And I think there's a sense in which
maybe we all think like that, that our pursuit of
financial independence is going to allow us to not have
to rely on anyone or anything. But while Jesus is speaking,
he's basically speaking to the where we pin our eternal
(30:59):
hope in this passage. But a simple and practical lesson
behind this parable two is that life is fleeting, and
this guy, he decides to build these bigger barns that
he can store his stuff and then just chill axe right,
just rest on his laurels, hang out, sip lemonade in
his rocking chair. But the reality is that not a
single one of us knows if we're gonna wake up
(31:19):
tomorrow to enjoy the fruits of our labor. You know,
eventually we're all gonna die, which which actually, probably Matt,
makes it a good time for us to start talking
about the Stoics their wisdom because they were were kind
of hyper focused on the ultimate reality, that's all.
Speaker 1 (31:35):
Right, keeping that the eventuality of death front and center
on the tippy tops of their minds, that's right.
Speaker 2 (31:41):
Yeah, So we'll talk about some some Stoic wisdom. We'll
even get into a little bit of Buddhism, and we'll
get to we'll get to that ancient wisdom and how
it intersects with our money right after this break. All right,
now that we wrapped up that Jesus Christ Super Savior segments,
(32:04):
we can move on to the Stoics. It still cracks
me up to say that out loud. Yeah, it's a
good title, the Stoics.
Speaker 1 (32:11):
All right. So when you think about the fact that
these folks lived in ancient Greece, like like two thousand
years ago, it is impressive to hear some of the
wisdom that they possessed. And so the Stoic philosophy, it's
all about building resilience and that no matter what circumstances
you are born into that, you will grow into confidence
that you can take on anything. It's no surprise that
(32:34):
I feel like stoicism is sort of making a comeback today,
whether that's just sort of the current financial crisis or
the you know where markets are, just the kind of
world that we live in today. But there's a lot
of great truths that we can take from stoicism and
apply those two not only our lives, but to personal
finances as well.
Speaker 2 (32:52):
I think living in a time of abundance like we
have now, like there's even more necessity for self restraint.
Speaker 1 (33:00):
And the Stoics really talked about that a great deal, right, Yeah, yeah,
because at the time, like Greek civilization was at its pinnacle,
like it was at the peak, but they.
Speaker 2 (33:09):
Also realized that that partaking in that e gorging yourself
on the abundance was not bringing about that happiness ultimate fulfillment.
Speaker 1 (33:16):
Yeah, totally agree. And that's yeah, it's really interesting because
there's certainly a parallel to that today within our world
where we have the most comfort, the most information at
our fingertips as well, it's like we last.
Speaker 2 (33:28):
Wealth, even the poorest among us have more wealth. Yes,
really was imaginable throughout most of history.
Speaker 1 (33:32):
Yeah, I mean, and just the internet, like literally we
were we lack very little in our modern age, in
particular in this country.
Speaker 2 (33:39):
Yeah, for sure. So epictetis Man. He's one of the
most fascinating stoics to me, partly because he was born
into slavery and his name literally means the acquired one,
and he spent the first thirty years of his life
in chains. And he once said that wealth consists not
in having great possessions, but in having few wants. That's
(34:00):
that's the quote I remember from him most. And then Seneca,
another of the great Stoke philosopher, said that contented poverty
is an honorable estate. And I think those two quotes
really go together for me because at the heart of
both of them is the ability to be completely satisfied
with where you're at in life, even if you're lot
in life, even if the place where you are isn't
(34:20):
where you want to be, even if there's a lot
of progress left to be made. But to realize that
getting more money, more possessions, a bigger house, a nicer car,
that they're not actually going to bring fulfillment. We would
say it's wise to desire the upside of wealth without
being dependent on it. And I think it's really easy, Matt,
for us to think that once we cross a certain threshold,
whether it's net worthwise, or whether it's success in our
(34:40):
career wise, whether it's achieving the position or a certain
amount of podcast downloads or something like that, that that's
going to make you happy. The truth is, oh, it will.
The truth is once you get to that point, there's
always a next hill to climb, and so it never
does really make you happy as a human, and so
you have to find your contentedness in other places, right,
and being able to, yeah, see kind of how the
(35:00):
Stoic's travel to do it, how they thought about it,
I think can be really informative to how we start
to think about our own trajectory.
Speaker 1 (35:07):
And you know, we're constantly moving the goalposts. And so, yeah,
while you're talking about how we often seek after more possessions,
here's another banger from Seneca, which is it is the
quality rather than the quantity that matters. This is a
great one.
Speaker 2 (35:21):
Because it feels like our society it's often focused on
just acquiring more stuff, you know, like not just finding
fulfillment in those things, but just more and more. You know,
it's sort of like the bigger is better kind of mantra.
But we feel, for instance, it's way better to focus
on quality over quantity.
Speaker 1 (35:37):
We think it's better to have like quality relationships rather
than a slew of acquaintances, and spending our money on
quality items is something worth prioritizing as well, like in
a world of fast fashion and prepackaged foods, disposable toys,
a world of plastic. Basically, it's helpful to rethink our
(35:58):
spending patterns. And you know, at least for me, that's
meant buying fewer things, but oftentimes more just expensive ones
as it pertains to quality because they're going to last
for a much longer time.
Speaker 2 (36:09):
It's like those antique pieces versus the key pieces that
we talked about at the beginning.
Speaker 1 (36:12):
Exactly, and not a disparaged ikea. There's a time and
place and depending on where you are in life. But simultaneously, yeah,
I think there's a lot that can be learned not
only from buying higher quality items that are going to last,
but also the different things that we pour our time
and energy into as well.
Speaker 2 (36:29):
Yeah, are another good one from Seneca because he was
full of them. He said that until we begin to
go without them, we fail to realize how unnecessary many
things are. And I mean, that's so ridiculously true. We
would suggest that it would be helpful, a helpful exercise,
to walk through your house finding objects that you really
wanted at one point. We all have those, and then
(36:51):
things maybe you thought you couldn't live without, in order
to see whether or not they're making you happy, whether
they're paying dividends, and are you still you using that
what was a must have item?
Speaker 1 (37:02):
Are you using it regularly?
Speaker 2 (37:03):
And a good place to start would probably be your closet,
right you still have tags on those new items you
purchased months and months ago saying that you, oh, man,
I can't wait to wear this. This is going to
be the perfect piece for this in this occasion. Well so,
so many of the things we identify as needs are
actually just once right, And we would do well to
think about the things we've purchased that are actually unnecessary
(37:23):
and to keep this lesson front of mind for future purchases.
And it might even be helpful to purposely go without
some things and start to clear out some of the
items in your house you aren't using us frequently to
give away to people who who might use us things
more with more regularity. But the truth is a lot
of us have probably a lot of unnecessary things floating
around our house, things that cost us money to buy,
(37:45):
and that cost us time to produce the money. And
when the reality is that our time is our most
important asset, we have often squandered it in the pursuit
of things that aren't really moving the needle for us.
Speaker 1 (37:56):
That's right. Well, so, actually, as you're talking about being
charitable market Aurelius, he is another one of the most
famous Stoic philosophers out there. He said that the only
wealth which you keep forever is the wealth that you
have given away. And you know, I feel that we've
lost the understanding of this in our culture. You know
that always does want to have more. But it is
so true that when you, you know, give your time
(38:18):
your money away, that you do become a happier person.
Oftentimes the folks who are most generous are the ones
who I actually have the least amount of possessions. But
you know, we think that giving your money away regularly
to causes to folks or you know who you're passionate about,
who you want to see advanced in the world that
that is going to allow you to see your money
(38:39):
do good around you, also giving you a healthier relationship
with money in general.
Speaker 2 (38:44):
Yeah, we've always said that giving your money away gives
you a more healthy relationship to your money, lessening your
attachment to something that is a tool right and that
you can use for good, but that you can use
to see good happen in the world around you, specifically
through nonprofits or in generosity to individuals who are in
nearby where you live. And Matt, I want to hit
one more from Seneca, who he said, for the wise
(39:06):
man does not consider himself unworthy of any gifts from
fortune's hand. He does not love wealth, but he would
rather have it. He does not admit it into his heart,
but into his home, and what wealth is his, he
does not reject, but keeps wishing it to supply greater
scope for him to practice his virtue. And I really
love this one because, Yeah, I think you know you
(39:27):
and I we really believe that building wealth is a
good thing. Obviously, we talk about it a lot on
this on this podcast, but it's important to ask ourselves,
is our pursuit of building wealth helping us become more
of who we want to be, or is it detracting
from it? And I think at different points in my life, Matt,
I've found that my attempts at building well, I've been
so focused on the money side of my life that
(39:48):
I've been missing out on things that are actually more important.
And I think what Seneca is speaking to here. He's
talking about not letting the wealth we acquire get too
close to our hearts, influencing and changing who we are.
And so I think you can do both those things simultaneously.
I think I think you can rather have wealth, like
he says, without loving it, but keeping keeping wealth really
(40:08):
in a healthy spot in your life, where it is
something that you are keen to build, keen to preserve,
but that gets demoted down the list of biggest priorities
in your life.
Speaker 1 (40:18):
Yeah, man, I love the casualness of it. You know,
he would rather have it. He does not love money.
Speaker 2 (40:23):
There's this sort of like not lase fair approach, but
just kind of like a casual, open handed It's not
something that you're clinging to, it's not something that you're
striving after, it's not ambivalence. Somewhere in between there right, Yeah, yeah, exactly.
Speaker 1 (40:36):
So we've said a lot, We've quoted a bunch from Seneca,
but he also talks about the like what is the
proper amount of wealth for an individual to have? And
he says, first of all, it's having enough money that
you're able to cover the essential things in life. But
then secondly, it's just simply having enough, which I love
because it man, it's like a double edged shore because
(40:57):
what that means is that pretty much anybody listening to
this can decide right now that they have enough. You
just have to decide that. But again, you can flip
that on its head though, because there might be somebody
who would always say that, like, well I don't have enough,
and it could always be this thing that they're striving
after where they are just wanting more and.
Speaker 2 (41:15):
More and meeting the beast exactly. Yeah, And so I
think there's a lot of power there. But basically, I
think what Seneca is getting at is the ability for
us to rein in our behavior and how it is
that we view and perceive and pursue money. It comes
down to us as individuals. I don't think there's there's
not like necessarily a right or wrong amount of money,
(41:37):
But it's all about how it is that we do
the dang thing. Yeah, that reminds me of another saying
that my mom used to say back that speaking of
ancient wisdom. Mat She's not that old, but she would
always she would always tell me that, how like, it's
not what you say, it's how you say it.
Speaker 1 (41:53):
Yeah, And there's it matters so much truth.
Speaker 2 (41:55):
To it, right that that it is how. It's not
the words that are coming out of her mouth. It's
the way in which you were treating someone, why you
say it, and whether you're saying it with like anger
or whether you're saying it out of love. It's people
perceive that, and so much of the same is true.
I think when it comes to how we handle our
money and the way in which we go about it matters.
(42:18):
And I don't know, there's this concept in Buddhism called
the middle way. I think that's worth mentioning here too. Basically,
it's this call to avoid extremes and the realities. We
live in a society that is incredibly polarized, which I
would say makes it easier said than done. Right, we're
kind of fighting uphill to live in a way that's
(42:40):
different from our modern culture, from popular culture. You know,
political views are fears. Money views can be as well.
You know, on that front, Matt makes me think of
the Fire Movement. It's kind of an extreme way to
view your money. True, it's not that aren't great principles
there and great people in the movement. But we've also
said that, you and I we've also always really talked
about kind of a middle way that would focus not
(43:01):
on depriving yourself but also not over indulging. And that's
just constantly what we're trying to espouse here is balance, basically,
this middle way with your finances, enjoying the here and
now while realizing that money is a piece of the puzzle,
while saving investing wisely for your future. And it is
not the easiest thing to get right. I think it's
(43:22):
a pendulum that is constantly swinging because we as humans,
we never really kind of find the sweet spot and
stay there. We're always kind of on the march to
be in that sweet spot. And so it's okay to
see that in yourself, because I think anybody who's trying
to be decent with their money sees that in their
own lives, right that at times they are too frugal,
and at other times they might prioritize investing for the
(43:44):
future more than they should. They should enjoy some of
the fruits in their labor in the here and now,
and that maybe you might think after hearing us talk
about this, Oh man, I haven't really thought about giving
my money away at all, And maybe it's a good
time for you to reconsider. Well, maybe you're too attached
to your money, and it would be a good idea
to look for ways to give of what you've been
given to care for those around you, people who have
(44:07):
more need than you do. But Matt, it's just fun
to kind of go over some of these these ancient quotes,
some of these ancient texts to gain wisdom, because there
are a lot of deep and beautiful truths here that
I think, like we can all run through the filter
of modern life and kind of start to make different
choices with how we think about how we approach our money.
Speaker 1 (44:27):
Totally. Yeah, And it's not lost on us too that
we barely just touched on like Buddhism, in any tradition,
that some of the Eastern, yeah, like Eastern traditions as
opposed to most of what we talked about today was
kind of more from the Western tradition.
Speaker 2 (44:39):
We'll speaking to things that we're more familiar with at least,
but there's a lot more we could dive in there is.
Speaker 1 (44:43):
Yeah, for sure, I could totally see us doing an
entirely new episode where we do dive into some of
those Eastern traditions and some of the wisdom that can
be garnered there and how it is that we can
apply that to our money. So yeah, maybe look out
for that one in the future. But Joel, we're going
to go ahead and shift to our beer that you
and I enjoy. This was Apricot Crumble. This is a
beer by Vitamin C Brewing. What were your thoughts on
(45:05):
this one, dude?
Speaker 2 (45:05):
Yeah, I feel like, actually a month or so ago,
I got a pie from one of our local pie
making shops and it tastes a lot like this one.
It was so good and the beer was delicious as well.
It's like the apricots came through nicely. I think ours
was a peach crumble, but apricots are like a little sweeter,
have just like a little more tartness going on. This
one had like some of the fresh crust vibes as
(45:27):
well going on with like a dash of cinnamon in
there to go along with it. So this definitely tasted
like the beer version of a delicious pie, and I guess.
Speaker 1 (45:37):
I like it a lot. Yeah, I liked it as well,
So it wasn't so we've had some of the beers
by a humble forager. It also makes me think of
tripping animals, where all all of their beers are in
the style, but they're often just boozier and they're just
just way thicker, a lot heavier. And this was a
similar style, but they didn't get too crazy with it.
I felt that they kept the amount of sweetness in
(45:58):
check where it felt like it was not quite ripe
apricot right like it was a little bit tart, like
maybe you had like a slight amount of crunch as
opposed to where you're looking at it. Because the best fruit,
like the sweetest fruit, it never looks good right like.
You look at it and you think, oh, should I
toss that? But then you wash it and eat it
and you're like, oh my gosh, this is like the sweetest,
(46:18):
most delicious ripe fruit that I've ever had. I feel
like this one tasted like an apricot that looked real nice,
which awesome meant that was a little bit tart. Yeah,
but it totally had some of those crumble crust notes
going on. Some of that. I think there's like some
of that lactose in it as well. It made it
taste nice and creamy. It was really enjoyable, and I
don't think we've ever actually had a beer by Vitamin
(46:39):
C before. But yeah, I'm glad that you were able
to pick this one up and we were able to
share it during this episode, no doubt. I'm me too.
Speaker 2 (46:45):
It was a good one. But that's going to do
it for this episode. Don't forget to sign up for
the how to Money newsletter on our website at hodamoney
dot com. Slash newsletter makes sense, right, It'll show up
into your inbox every Tuesday morning, hopefully giving you a
nice chuckle along with some good money information. But Matt,
that's going to do it for this episode. Until next time,
Best Friends Out, Best Friends Out,
Hosts And Creators
Joel Larsgaard
Matthew Altmix
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