July 16, 2025 • 49 mins
We had the pleasure of sitting down with our friend Brandon Ganch, who is The Mad Fientist, while we were recently traveling in Scotland! Brandon started his career as a computer programmer but then quickly added blogger, podcaster, musician, and producer to his expanding list of pursuits and interests. This is a more casual conversation but listen as you’ll learn a lot about Brandon- life events that may have shaped his view of money, how he discovered and then became a leading voice in the Financial Independence Retire Early movement, working with his wife towards financial freedom, possible regrets from pursuing FIRE, and how having a kid and growing older has changed how he now spends his money. We were especially thankful for the Ganch’s hospitality considering they had just moved into their lovely home, with a new baby, just a week before us tourists arrived on the scene!
Want more How To Money in your life? Here are some additional ways to get ahead with your personal finances:
- Knowing your ‘money gear’ is a crucial part of your personal finance journey. Start here.
- Sign up for the weekly HTM newsletter. It’s fun, free, & practical.
- Join a thriving community of fellow money in the HTM Facebook group.
- Massively reduce your cell phone bill each month by switching to a discount provider like Mint Mobile.
During this episode we enjoyed a delicious triple IPA that was graciously provided by Brandon: Puttty by Verdant Brewing based in the UK. And please help us to spread the word by letting friends and family know about How to Money! Hit the share button, subscribe if you’re not already a regular listener, and give us a quick review in Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. Help us to change the conversation around personal finance and get more people doing smart things with their money!
Best friends out!
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Welcome to Had to Money.
Speaker 2 (00:01):
I'm Joel and I am Matt and.
Speaker 1 (00:03):
Today we're talking life after financial independence with the Mad Scientist.
Speaker 3 (00:28):
That's right, we are actually talking with Brandon Gansch, also
known as the Mad Fientist. And you might already notice
that it sounds a little bit different than it typically
does when we record a How to Money episode. This
is because we are doing a field recording. We are
actually in Scotland. Joel and I we took a trip
with our wives and we happen to find our way
(00:49):
down where it is that Brandon lives with his wife
and his new son. So first of all, Brandon, he's
originally a programmer. He is a music producer, creates his
own own music. He is a blogger, he's a podcaster,
and we're going to talk about all of the things
that he is up to. This is going to be
maybe a little more of a non traditional episode here
for How to Money, but we wanted to be able
(01:11):
to bring something fun and interesting to all of you
folks out there. So Brandon, thank you so much for
joining us today on the podcast.
Speaker 2 (01:17):
Thank you guys for coming all the way to Scotland.
It's not often that people make their way all the
way out to where we are.
Speaker 4 (01:23):
So I appreciate you guys coming by.
Speaker 1 (01:24):
Oh my goodness, we wanted to come to Scotland, wanted
to hang out with you, two to drink Scotch and
three to enjoy the scenery. But our first question to
every guest we have on the show, Brandon is as
you know, what is your.
Speaker 4 (01:36):
Craft beer equivalent?
Speaker 1 (01:37):
Matt and I love craft beer, and we spend way
too much money on it while we're saving and investing
wisely for the future. So what is that expense in
your life? So he used to be Kraft beer.
Speaker 2 (01:46):
I am also, and that's how we met and how
we formed our close friendship is that we do have
a very similar appreciation of Kraft beer.
Speaker 4 (01:55):
So it used to be that.
Speaker 2 (01:56):
But nine months ago we had a son, and now
I can drink maybe half a half a craft beer.
Speaker 4 (02:03):
Before I want to fall asleep.
Speaker 2 (02:04):
So our craft beer consumption has drastically declined just because
we can't stay awake long enough to enjoy it properly.
But now it seems to be synthesizers, which actually this
year I haven't spent too much on synthesizers today. This year,
this year was mostly buying a house, which we haven't
owned a house for almost ten years, and now that
(02:26):
we have a son, our jet setting lifestyle is over
for the time being, which I'm perfectly happy with. So yeah,
this year has been house but in the in the
past few years has been synthesizers, which you are now
surrounded by this in this makeshift studio.
Speaker 4 (02:43):
That I just set up for you. Guys.
Speaker 3 (02:44):
Yeah, there are multiple moog since sitting here. Honestly, I
wish I knew more about them, But maybe we'll talk
a little bit more about that after.
Speaker 2 (02:53):
Hey, we can fire them up and we can have
forty five minutes of just weird bleeps and bloops and
you'll think our two DT's are two detas was in
the room.
Speaker 4 (03:00):
But yeah, we could do that if you want. Just
let me know. I love it.
Speaker 3 (03:03):
I love it all right, Brandon. So, first of all, honestly,
I'm not totally sure of your financial history. I would
love to know how it is that you got to
learn about basically how to handle your own money. Was
this something that y'all talked about within your own household.
Was this something that you formally learned or is it
something yeah, maybe that you figured out on your own.
Speaker 2 (03:24):
Yeah, I don't know where it came from, but I
loved money ever since I was a kid. My parents
have stories of you know, throwing quarters into the deep
end of the pool, and as soon as I found one,
then I would spend like five hours searching.
Speaker 4 (03:38):
The deep end of the pool to find them.
Speaker 2 (03:40):
And then my grandma actually was like, yeah, you went
home after that night and you called back and said,
did anyone find any more money in the pool. So
I really don't understand where it comes from. But I
always loved money. And then as I got older, I
loved math and I appreciated the fact that hey, you
could invest this money and then it would grow. So
(04:02):
my dad bought me five stock certificates back when they
actually had them on paper, and so I would look
in the newspaper to see how my stocks were doing.
And you know, this was back in the days where
it was like fifty five and one eighth and all
this sort of stuff.
Speaker 4 (04:16):
And I'd look and I'd be like, oh, that's good.
It was it was fifty five.
Speaker 2 (04:20):
Yesterday, So this is I'm making money. So I don't
know because my brother's he's good with money, but he's
not obsessed with money like I was.
Speaker 4 (04:29):
So I think there's.
Speaker 2 (04:29):
Some innate money loving in my life. But yeah, I
guess the fact that I do love math and I
can appreciate even though I can't like fully comprehend like
compound interests, like it's still a difficult thing to like
visualize and imagine, but I think I appreciated it more
than the average person.
Speaker 1 (04:50):
I guess that's so funny because I feel like my
fascination with money, or the way I started off, was
so much more emotional than mathematical. My parents not handling
money terribly well, and it becoming just like this this
thing in our family that and me at a particular
age where I was more susceptible to feeling a different
sense of what was happening in our family than my
(05:11):
younger sister who was too young to understand, my older
sister who was kind of in high school hanging.
Speaker 4 (05:16):
Out with boys.
Speaker 1 (05:17):
And I'm in this middle school Joel, who is particularly
vulnerable to kind of what's going on with the family finances.
So I'm curious, and so much of your content on
Mad Scientists on your website has really revolved around a
lot of the mathematics, around money. The way you write
about kind of handling taxes and retirement accounts, you've really
(05:37):
you really dove into the weeds. And I feel like
when you started there was no other source on the
web talking about money really in such like an approachable
but also nuanced a way. So kind of what made
you dive so deeply into how to handle money from
like a financial independence perspective.
Speaker 2 (05:56):
Yeah, I think that's a really good point because I
guess it was my age, maybe when my parents got
divorced and then it was mainly my mom raised in
two boys, and you know, money was always tight, and
it was always a focus, and it was never to
be wasted. And maybe maybe I've never really thought about
it like that, but I think that's a really good point.
Like my age at that time really understood that, whereas
(06:18):
maybe my brother was like, ah, everything's fine, we have
everything we need, and we always did have everything we needed,
and I never felt like we were wanting for anything.
But I also realized how important it was to not
waste the money. So I think I think that's a
really good point because I think one my age at
the time of you know, the divorce and maybe going
(06:41):
off and being raised by my mom predominantly allowed me
to appreciate money. But then also as a kindergartener having
a divorce and being like feeling like you're sort of
out of control. Then the math math doesn't lie, and
you can plan.
Speaker 4 (06:57):
You know, you can.
Speaker 2 (06:58):
Plan really and like the math doesn't lie if you
if you follow these steps and you add that much
and it's going to grow at this much, then that works.
So I think maybe that's what could have driven the
later stuff that, like the actual math fnd is stuff.
It's like, Okay, I have this control over my life
and maybe as a kid, I didn't feel like I
had that control.
Speaker 4 (07:18):
Yeah, that's really deep.
Speaker 2 (07:20):
Maybe we've maybe we've broken through some here and I
can understand myself a little better.
Speaker 3 (07:25):
Tools might might be taken a leave out of his
wife's book when it comes to counseling, but I.
Speaker 4 (07:29):
Think that's that's so true. We talk about the different.
Speaker 3 (07:31):
Ways that we seek to create control or you know,
we try to create order within our lives and just
the world. It seems like a very chaotic place.
Speaker 4 (07:39):
And so if there's a way that you.
Speaker 3 (07:40):
Can basically put your finger on it, I completely understand
the desire from an analytical standpoint to control something and
to understand how it is that something works where it
feels like it's not just completely going off the rails.
But so for you, that was certainly a personal sort
of way that you saw that manifest in your in
your life. How is it that you came about actually
then publicly writing about personal finances and specifically I guess
(08:03):
launching the mad Fientist blog.
Speaker 2 (08:05):
Yeah, well that that was the really exciting thing. So so, yeah,
you have to go back. I'm in my late twenties.
My twenties, I had all these big plans like this
is how I was going to live my life, and
I was going to create all these amazing things, and
I was really excited about it. And then the twenties
just grind grinded on.
Speaker 4 (08:23):
And then when I.
Speaker 2 (08:24):
Turned thirty, I had this meltdown. It was like a
middle life crisis. But when I was thirty, it was
very embarrassing, which it's a funny story now, but it
was super embarrassing at the time. We went up to
jp Vermont, I had I don't know, like eight six
or eight friends that we went skiing. We had a
great day skiing. I turned thirty and I was like,
what have I done with my life? I've done nothing. Jill,
(08:46):
my now wife was a girlfriend at the time, took
that personally, like, what do you mean You've done nothing?
Like We've built this amazing life together. I'm like, I've
done nothing. I had this it was embarrassing. Everyone went
to bed sad and we after this great day of skiing.
And but it was because I felt like that, because
I like, I hadn't accomplished anything that I thought I
(09:07):
wanted to accomplish. I hadn't built anything I wanted to build.
I overanalyzed everything that I wanted to do, like I
would just overanalyze it to death until I thought it
was a stupid idea. And that's I created the Medfientist
a few days later because I was like, I'm so
excited about this idea of financial independence. Because I got
introduced by to financial independence through get rich Slowly, which
(09:30):
those three words or exactly what I wanted to do.
I was like, yeah, I just want to get rich slowly,
Like I don't want to live a flashy lifestyle or anything.
I just want to get rich slowly. I want to
be comfortable, I want to be secure. I want to
be able to do what I want because throughout my life,
I've always felt like I've known best and like I,
like I mentioned earlier, like I do like control, and
I like I've thought about things more than the average person.
(09:52):
So like taking instructions from a boss that I didn't
feel like they understood everything was very hard for me.
So like, I wanted to get to a place where
I could call the shots and be secure and all
of that thing. So when I found get rich Slowly,
I was like, oh, yeah, that's exactly what I'm gonna do.
I want to do it properly. I don't want to
just do the next fad. I just want to get
(10:13):
rich slowly. And then he interviewed Jacob Lenfisker, and Jacob
had written a book called Early Retirement Extreme, and he
laid out the math and it was just so simple.
But I'd never thought of it in that way before,
and it was just, Okay, yeah, you can stop working.
Speaker 4 (10:30):
Retirement's not an age.
Speaker 2 (10:31):
It's a time when your assets are a certain multiple
of your expenses. And that changed everything because I was like,
all right, here we go. That's simple math. I love math.
I can understand that. And yeah, it's not this dream
destination when you hit sixty. It's actually just a function
of your spending, and my spending can be reduced and
(10:55):
my income can be increased.
Speaker 4 (10:57):
And it was the.
Speaker 2 (10:59):
Thing that I was most I did about at that time.
So I turned thirty in twenty twelve January and I
launched them at fientists like I think February second of
twenty twelve, because I was like, I could overanalyze.
Speaker 4 (11:11):
This to death.
Speaker 2 (11:12):
I could start in LLC when I don't need one.
I can worry about the legal ramifications of giving financial
advice on the internet, all these things that don't matter
because I have no readers. Or I could just start
it because my twenties were all of that stuff.
Speaker 4 (11:28):
So I just started it.
Speaker 2 (11:29):
I asked mister money Mustache to be my first guest
on my podcast because he was a software developer like me,
had no idea how big he was or how big
he would become. And yeah, just went from there. So
it was a lot of luck for timing wise, but
it was also just me reaching the end of the
rope of like overanalyzing things to death. I just needed
(11:50):
to take action.
Speaker 4 (11:50):
That's funny.
Speaker 1 (11:51):
When you were talking about kind of your goal behind
financial independence, not to become super wealthy or anything like that.
It made me think of our friends Julian and Kirsten,
who'd do rich in regular and I love kind of
that those three words in tandem, rich and regular, and
that is like kind of the aspiration of that Matt
and I have as well. It's wealthy over a long
period of time. It is nothing flashy. It is it
(12:14):
really old, pretty ugly minivans, and people assume when we
drive around town, oh, like that's that person doesn't have
any money. So talk to me though about that. Because
wealth can, I think, have a certain flash, you can
show it off. There are ways to make people understand
that you are a person of means. Why was that
(12:35):
never anything that you aspired to when you kind of
figure out figured out what money can do, what money
can be. How come that was never one of the
goals of money for you.
Speaker 2 (12:44):
That was the luckiest thing I think about my journey.
It was the fact that not only was that not
important to me, but it was like actually the reverse,
Like I wanted to downplay it. I still want to
downplay it.
Speaker 4 (12:56):
You guys are.
Speaker 2 (12:56):
Sitting in the brand new house that we bought, and
it is grander and flashier than anything I've ever purchased
in my life, and I still feel very weird about it,
not to say I'm not happy, Like I love it,
I love everything about it, but it is I would
I would be more comfortable if it was less grand
and less I don't know, it just stands out a
(13:17):
little bit too much. But the real estate market's crazy,
and this was the absolutely the best thing that we've seen.
Speaker 4 (13:23):
On the market.
Speaker 2 (13:24):
So I'm so happy that we got it, and I'm
absolutely thrilled about it. But yeah, I don't I don't
know where that comes from. I think it's my grandparents
struggled and they had you know, they had three kids
and all they had four kids, and they had a
bunch of foster kids, and they were always like every
penny was to be looked after and not to be wasted.
(13:46):
And the same with my upbringing. So it's like and
all my friends and every No, I don't.
Speaker 4 (13:52):
Have rich friends. I don't have rich tastes.
Speaker 2 (13:54):
Yes, I love going to like a really fancy restaurant
once in a while for a treat, but I'd be
much more comfortable getting like a really good burger and.
Speaker 4 (14:01):
Stuff like that.
Speaker 2 (14:02):
So it's like my identity is so tied to like
middle class that the fact that the money in the
bank isn't that anymore is very hard to come to
terms with, because money is really useful, like this house
is in particular, is like testament to that, like using
(14:23):
money to buy nice things is really actually good, and
like for my entire life, I've always kept myself from
doing that because I was saving and saving and saving
to get to financial independence. But now that we've been
here for the last six years and the portfolio has
grown even despite just using it, it's like, Okay, this
(14:43):
is going to snowball out of control because compound interest
is an actually really powerful thing. So we got to
start spending it. And every single change we've made so far,
except maybe a business class flight that wasn't worth the
extra money or the extra miles I couldn't I couldn't
use money. I used miles, but it wasn't worth the
extra miles.
Speaker 4 (15:04):
But every every other.
Speaker 2 (15:05):
Thing that we've pushed ourselves to spend a little bit
more has been worth it. So for someone who's supernaturally
frugal has a blog about frugality and like saving a
bunch of money. I'm surprised over the last two years
that I've let myself relax a little bit.
Speaker 4 (15:21):
How much fun spending is so Like, it's.
Speaker 2 (15:24):
Weird to be talking about that because yeah, like as
a frugality blogger, but it's been it's been so much fun.
Like I money has been more fun to spend than
it has been to save recently. But it's only because
I know that I'm not like making a huge dent
into that before though, so I think that may be
the difference. It's like, yeah, spending when I didn't have
a lot now just stress me out because I wasn't saving.
(15:46):
But now that I know that we're set, like, it
has been nice to just relax a little bit, which
is a huge surprise.
Speaker 3 (15:52):
You're you're talking about lifestyle and how it is that
you're spending money, and it's funny that you consider your
I mean, you mentioned like a frugality blogger when it
seems like so much of what you honestly what you
specialize in and what I think folks go to you
for is the number crunching. It's more of the analytical
side of things. But I actually I do have a
quick follow up about consumption and spending, and we're going
(16:14):
to talk a little bit about fire, financial independence, retiring early,
and we'll get to some of those questions right after
this break. All right, we are back from the break.
And by the way, I wanted to mention Brandon, you
(16:35):
were so incredibly generous and we have already enjoyed a
couple very delicious, very amazing beers. And Brandon was not
joking when you mentioned how we share a love of
craft beer and we have some of the finest here.
I just took a sept from mine and it's so
stinking good. We'll talk about our thoughts on the beer
at the end of the episode. But right before the break,
I was we were talking about consumption, like was there
(16:57):
a point? Was there like did a light turn on?
Was there a switch that flipped that allowed you to
start spending money to kind of shift from that frugality
mindset to actually start enjoying some of your money, Like
when did that point in time come for you?
Speaker 2 (17:12):
So I had created a software application prior to even
starting The Mad Scientist, and it started generating more income
than we actually spend. So it was at that point
where I was like, Okay, we have this five portfolio
that is meant to be providing all of our spending money,
we're not even touching it because this application that I
(17:33):
created a year or two before is actually bringing in more.
So it was at that point I was like, this
is ridiculous. So what I need to do is at
least spend what the fire portfolio could generate every year
in perpetuity, which is the whole point of saving up
a big portfolio and pursuing FI. So that amount was
(17:54):
about double what we normally spent over the last decade.
Speaker 4 (17:58):
So I've never hit that target.
Speaker 2 (18:00):
It's been a target for the past three years, and
I got I got fairly close the first year because
I was we were traveling a lot that was post pandemic,
so I was like, Okay, we're gonna We're gonna go
and see my family. We're gonna go and travel, and like,
we've been pent up in this one bedroom Edinburgh apartment
for a whole year, so let's go crazy. And we
got sort of close, but we didn't. We didn't hit
(18:21):
the target. Last year, we moved into a rental, which
I knew was going to be our last rental before
buying a place, so I was like, this will allow
us to buy the things that we want to buy
because we're only gonna have to move them one more time.
So I bought like a super fancy coffee grinder, which
you guys got the he got to reap the benefits
of with a nice coffee when you arrived, and things
(18:42):
like that, and we sort of got we got less
close because that was I had a list of things
I wanted to buy for a lot of years and
it wasn't It was a small list because I don't
like stuff. So then this year we were really, we
were really lagging behind the target. But then we just
bought a house, So I think we're gonna maybe hit
it this year because we're trying to furnish a house.
(19:03):
Even though it's been furnished when we bought it, which
was super nice, we're still adding a few things to it.
So maybe we'll get close this year. But this year
I've set the target that if I don't spend it,
I have to give it away because I also want
to try to get better at give it away to
charity because I just feel like we've been so fortunate,
but old habits die hard, So I'm still gripping every
(19:24):
penny with an iron fist, which I need to get
better at not doing, because yeah, it's just counter productive
at this stage.
Speaker 4 (19:31):
So whatever we.
Speaker 2 (19:33):
Don't spender under that goal going to give it away
to charity, which is a whole other thing I need
to explore. So yeah, so it was really the fact
that got to a point where didn't even draw down
on the fire portfolio and realized I needed to start
thinking about it. And then recently the Die with Zera
book has been really influential, and that's only because Matt
(19:55):
Fiintis readers and listeners actually recommended it when I was
talking about the stuff spend really impactful because he talks
about you need to enjoy your money at certain stages,
like right now, Like I'm forty one, and you know,
I love skiing, so I need to spend on skiing
now because maybe when I'm fifty, I'm going to be
(20:17):
in a lot less physical shape that.
Speaker 4 (20:20):
Maybe it's not going to be as fun.
Speaker 2 (20:21):
And my son's young, so doing stuff with him is
going to be more fun now when he's young than
maybe when he's a teenager and doesn't want to hang
out with me and things like that, So it's put
a whole news perspective on things. And like I said before,
like I've enjoyed every little bit of the increase that
we've done it. And again, we're not spending even probably
(20:42):
what a typical American spends just normally. But every change
we made is spend beneficial so far.
Speaker 1 (20:49):
It's so it's so interesting to hear you talk about
kind of those those trying to change the dial on
saving or spending, because they're really two different approaches to money.
And those years of being frugal and you know, saving
and investing half or more of your income, which is
(21:09):
kind of what the fire person is into, is like
one way of approaching money, and then spending down that
portfolio is a different, completely different way of thinking about money.
But talk to me about I'm curious a lot of
people who are in the fire movement. I guess at
a certain point in time they might say, Wow, this
(21:29):
is really difficult to be setting aside this much of
my income. It's a really hard thing than to change
your mentality. And so do you wish does any part
of you wish you could go back to some of
those early days when you were saving such an extreme
amount of your income and say, I wish I would
have lived it up a little more. I wish I
(21:50):
would have saved a little bit less.
Speaker 2 (21:52):
Extremely Yeah, so I'm very lucky in the sense that
I don't have very many regrets. Joe and I we
travel to like fifty countries in our twenties and thirties,
and travel was like the big thing for me, and like, yeah,
I got really good at travel hacking and using points
and miles to make it cheap. But yeah, I'm glad
we did that when we were young, because a lot
(22:13):
of that travel I wouldn't want to do now in
my forties, So I'm really thankful for that. I'm thankful
that we didn't sacrifice that to like some glorious like
around the World trip when we're fifty or sixty, because
it just wouldn't be as fun, because travel in the
forties is definitely not as fun as it was in
the twenties. The only regrets I have from my entire
fire journey is missing out on a few things in
(22:36):
my twenties. So for instance, like my buddies were getting married,
so like the bachelor party would be a month before
the wedding, and I'm like, I live in Scotland. I'm
not going to travel back to the States in June
and then come back in July for the wedding.
Speaker 4 (22:53):
Like I'll come to the wedding, that's the.
Speaker 2 (22:54):
Important thing, you know, Like I'll give you my gifts
and get to catch up and all that stuff. But
I'm not going to come just to get wasted for
one night in June and then come all the way
back in July. But I do regret that because just
like the Die with Zero book says, those trips aren't
coming back. My buddies have stories that I'm not included
in because I wasn't there, and it would have been
(23:17):
so hard to spend that much money. Like even now,
knowing what I know now, it was still been a
really hard thing to spend that money to make two
translating trips within a month. But yeah, I didn't miss
out out on that stuff. So those are literally the
only things that I'm regretful of in my journey to FI. Like,
(23:39):
I'm glad I lived the lifestyle that we lived so
that we can live the lifestyle that we live now.
I'm glad that we just let our lifestyle gradually increase.
So even though our money was drastically increasing, with our
salaries increasing and side businesses increasing. We just gradually let
it increase, and that's what's made it fun all these years.
Like how do I let it drastically increase in my
(24:01):
twenties When I could have, I would probably be sick
of whatever I was doing in my twenties, whereas now,
like just the fact that we own a house again.
Speaker 4 (24:10):
Is like a glorious thing.
Speaker 2 (24:11):
It's like, Wow, I can put stuff in this drawer
and it's going to be in that drawer for the
next X number of years. Like that is like amazing
to me right now. So I'm glad we did it
gradually because yeah, you get to appreciate it more.
Speaker 4 (24:25):
And I say this on my podcast a lot.
Speaker 2 (24:27):
It's like we're really bad at knowing what we actually
want in life, so experimenting is the only way to
really know what you want. So we get to run
all these fun experiments and some of them don't work out.
Speaker 4 (24:38):
And some of them do.
Speaker 2 (24:39):
But but yeah, we could have easily just gone from
you know, broke students to like making whatever six figures
and having that whole lifestyle.
Speaker 4 (24:48):
But it's like, what would we.
Speaker 2 (24:49):
Get to look forward to in our forties, like long
answer to your question, But yeah, there's only one thing
I regret, and that is missing just a few bachelor
parties with my friends, because I'm even if we did
those trips again, we wouldn't be twenty year old idiots
like we would have been at that time, and we
wouldn't have the stories that resulted from this twenty year
old idiot extravagances. So but yeah, besides that, thankfully we
(25:13):
uh I didn't sacrifice too much.
Speaker 3 (25:15):
I've got one more follow up. I guess when it
comes to how it is that you spend money, but
it sounds like that you were frugal, but it sounds
like you also had Jill. So Jill is your wife,
and that it seemed like she was on board. I
haven't heard many.
Speaker 2 (25:28):
Stories shared, at least about.
Speaker 3 (25:30):
Maybe y'all you know, knocking heads when it comes to
whether it's spending money or saving money or some of
the different decisions. How were you able to get her
on board so easily? And you're shaking your head no,
And so if you if you weren't able to, how,
I guess what lessons did you learn along the way.
Speaker 2 (25:48):
Jill was never like she was never flashy or never extravagant.
But if the money was in her account, it was
spent it. It wasn't it was like, yeah, it's there,
I'll spend it. It was yeah, I'm gonna end was
zero at the end of the month, It's fine, it
doesn't matter. It's like, there's my money, I'm going to
use it. So luckily, it wasn't like battling against some
sort of like I need to show how successful I am,
(26:10):
or I need to show extravagant I am. It wasn't
anything like that. It was more like, all right, the
money's in the account, I'll spend it. She never really
understood why I was so intent on saving. It wasn't
until we really sat down. It was on our honeymoon. Actually,
so we dated for ten years before we got married.
So by the time our honeymoon rolled around, I was like, well, like,
(26:33):
what's your perfect life look like? She's like, well, what
do you mean perfect life? I was like, well, if
you could design exactly how you want to.
Speaker 4 (26:40):
Live, what is it like.
Speaker 2 (26:41):
She's like, what do you mean that's a stupid question.
Speaker 4 (26:44):
Like I just I work like everybody else.
Speaker 2 (26:48):
I cooked dinner and then you know, we just live
this normal existence. I was like, no, it doesn't have
to be like that, Like how would you design it?
If you could design it? And it was only when
we went through that exercise, and it wasn't a quick exercise.
It lasted well beyond the honeymoon. It was like lots
of discussions, lots of thinking about it, and like it
(27:09):
was only then that she realized, oh, you know, I
don't have to be driving to some office while she's
an uptomicist, but driving to some clinic forty hours a
week and being stuck there and having our whatever a
few weeks of vacation every year, Like we could actually
design it in a different way.
Speaker 4 (27:26):
And that was the turning point.
Speaker 2 (27:28):
So and then obviously starting the mad fientists help. So
I started that in twenty twelve, started interviewing other people
that thought like me. So she wasn't hearing it from me.
The last thing she wanted to do was get lectured
by me about how to deal with money. So hearing
from other people that thought differently about money was really helpful.
(27:48):
So I think it was the combination of those two things.
Speaker 3 (27:50):
It almost seems like so obviously the question of asking
what should like what would our perfect life look like it.
It seems like that was a turning point where you
could start to like, essentially you're starting with the end
in mind and what steps do we need to take
in order to get there. Sounds like that was huge.
But what you're talking about now is like I hear
you talk about if you're not going to spend a
certain amount of money this year, like you're talking about
(28:11):
giving it away. So essentially for you, what seems to
be working now is essentially creating rules. You're basically creating
like an algorithm, a formula that is going to work
for you, and you know that if you don't follow
through and if X doesn't happen, well why is going
to happen? And I think that's important to point out
that for some individuals, depending on how it is that
you process and how it is that you think, it
(28:32):
might literally whether it's coming up with a formula with
an XL or even just writing out on a sheet
of paper saying that my goal is to spend X
amount of my expendable income this year, or my goal
is to set aside this much for retirement, whatever it is.
I think for the individual, you have to figure out
the different approaches that are going to work for you.
(28:54):
That is going to be able to move the needle,
whether it comes to how much you're able to invest
your money or even in your case, it seems like
how much money you're going to spend. And so it
seems like that that's actually working out for you.
Speaker 4 (29:03):
Oh yeah, my entire life is run by spreadsheets.
Speaker 2 (29:05):
So once I wasn't having spreadsheets to figure out how
much I was saving, I need to have spreadsheets to
tell me how much to spend. And yeah, just the
way my brain works, Like, I do enjoy that and
it does take my brain out of it a bit
as well. It's like it was very helpful on the
saving path because I knew, like this is what I
wanted to do and this is how I was going
(29:26):
to do it. But it's super helpful now because it's like,
I know I want to spend this much. I know
that's going to be a struggle. So then when I'm
out and about and a potential expense comes up, I'm like,
rather than before my entire life has been oh no,
spending is the worst thing that you can do. It's
(29:48):
the last ditch effort. It means you haven't spent twenty
hours on the internet trying to figure out a way
to come and get that same thing for way cheaper
or free. It means that you've failed. And so so
this is what you have to do. You have to spend.
So it's flip that and now it's like, Okay, I
have to spend this much more. So that's the no
(30:09):
brainer thing to do. I just do that and then
it helps me reach my other goal of spending this amount.
And yeah, for a naturally frugal person, it's been absolutely
ga game changing. And I realize how ridiculous it sounds,
and I know this is going to be a small
subset of the audience, but for all the fire people
out there, they know how this feels. And like even
(30:31):
some very famous fire people, I see them struggling a
lot with how to how to actually spend and utilize
the money that they saved up, because yeah, when you're gone,
money is meaningless, which it is all along, but we
at least trick ourselves into think it's not.
Speaker 1 (30:50):
Yeah, man, I feel like we're such kindred spirits. We
approach money into completely different ways, but we have so
many similar thoughts and approaches and feelings towards it too,
So that's just yeah, fun to hear your perspective on that.
But we want to specifically talk about your life post five.
You've got a kiddo now that changes everything, as we
all know, anybody who has kids knows that that like
(31:11):
throws a wrench in every single one of our plans.
So we'll talk about that and just really, you know,
what life post financial independence has been like for more
than half a decade. We'll talk about more along those
lines with Brandon the Mad Fientist right after this.
Speaker 4 (31:34):
All right, we're back.
Speaker 1 (31:34):
We're still talking with the mad Scientists, our good friend
Brandon Gansch, and he is I mean really kind of
the OG in the Fire movement or one of the
OG's right, And we were talking earlier about just the
different generations of firefolks who have like you are essentially
the grandfather, like you were one of the originals. Well,
I feel like early retirement extreme was probably where Brandon
(31:56):
got it from, was like the original original writing. Nothing
it's more original than that, right, yeah, which is pretty
Jacob Lundfisker. So, but yeah, I want to talk about
what life has been like after you reached that point.
Obviously a lot of sacrifices, a lot of years, a
lot of saving a lot more than you make. And
our audience, again, a lot of some of our audiences
(32:17):
into the fire stuff more. A big chunk of our
audience is also really into like basic personal finance, but
financial independence. Matt and I always come at this conversation
about money from that perspective that maybe not retiring early,
but reaching financial independence within a reasonable amount of time
is a really good goal. So talk about what life
has been like once you kind of hit that goal.
(32:39):
It certainly seems like in those first couple of years
there was a little bit of like wheel spinning that
you were not quite sure what life was going to
look like. Maybe you have this big old financial goal
that you wanted to hit, and then once you hit it,
you were like, I don't know what to do right now?
Speaker 4 (32:54):
Yeah, big time.
Speaker 2 (32:55):
So for me, like I felt incorrectly that my job
was holding me back from everything that I wanted to do.
So I blamed my job on the reason that I
hadn't written an album like I'd always wanted to do
since I was a kid. I blamed my job for
the reason I hadn't started a business like I'd always
wanted to do. When I was maybe twenty plus, I
(33:16):
blamed my job for everything, and only after getting rid
of the job did I realize that my job had
nothing to do with any of that stuff. So the
first few years were weird. The first one was amazing.
So the first year after leaving my job, I was like,
this is amazing. Jill and I traveled all the way
around the world, used a bunch of our miles to
travel in like business class and try to try out
(33:38):
all that stuff. And we lived in Thailand and we
did all that stuff and it was amazing and it
was really fun.
Speaker 4 (33:43):
You know. A couple months in, we're.
Speaker 2 (33:45):
Like, okay, another temple who cares like this isn't the
like Jill knew it Jill. Jill wanted to do a
one month trip. I wanted to do a one year trip.
We settled on three months. By two months in, I
was like, God, Jill was right. She's always right, but
she lets me learn from my mistakes in practice rather
(34:06):
than lecturing me, So that's nice. So yeah, I was like, yeah,
it's another temple Jesus, Like it's lost its appeal. So
so then it was like Okay, well I still haven't
written that album that I always said I was gonna write,
and like, I haven't been an entrepreneur like I thought
it would be, and all this stuff, and you realize
that your job's.
Speaker 4 (34:26):
Not stopping you from that.
Speaker 2 (34:28):
It's self doubt, it's all the things that are the
things that every creative person has to go through to
create anything that they like. It's like you feel like
it's the worst thing that's ever been produced, and you
just all that stuff. It's like, so, yeah, not having
a job lets you more or less be miserable for
(34:50):
twenty four hours a day because the reason you're not
successful was all in your hands. And that's a very
difficult pill to swallow. And it was only the pandemic
that saved me, to be honest, because we had moved
to Edinburgh.
Speaker 4 (35:04):
The whole city shut down.
Speaker 2 (35:05):
The UK was way more lockdown than the States, I think,
and we had no options and it was like, all right, well,
you know, I've got the money to not have a job.
I've got absolutely no distractions because we can literally only
leave our apartment for one hour day it's for exercise,
and you can't even sit in the park. You have
to walk in the park because sitting is not exercise,
(35:25):
and it's like, Okay, I have to do this thing
that I said I'd always want to do, and that
was writ an album. And I spent that entire year
writing the album. I did it, and it is still
my proudest accomplishment of all time because I know how
much awful self doubt, in like just torturous hours trying
things it took to make it. And I think that
(35:49):
I think that's the big lesson because people like me,
like I definitely did it, are racing towards five because
they think it's going to solve all of their problems.
And it literally solves because when you log into your
bank account and you see a number on the screen,
you know a slightly larger number on that screen is
going to do nothing for your actual real life or
(36:10):
your real happiness. It's what you do with the knowledge
that you have that extra larger number in the screen
that really matters. And that's tough and it's tough to
figure out how to do that when you're not practiced
in it, and I wasn't practiced in it because all
my focus and all my energy was towards saving and
(36:33):
once I had saved enough, it was like, well, okay,
now what I haven't worked on that entrepreneurial muscle. I
haven't worked on that music muscle. I haven't worked on
the spending muscle. I've not worked any of that, and
they've all atrophied to nothing. Yes, I know how to save,
and that's something I really see in the fire movement
(36:56):
and which is why I've sort of backed away from
it over recent years. Is a lot of people it
seems like they get to fire and they want to
just integrate themselves more into the fire community, and that
just seems kind of productive to me because it's like
reaching financial independence is like, you know, you get really
good at using a hammer because you want to build,
(37:17):
Say I want to build a model airplane and you
want to build a boat, and yeah, everyone, it's it's
fun to talk about that hammer while you're building. But
then afterwards you want to hang out with boat people
or I want to hang out with model airplane people.
So that to reach FI and then just want to
just hang out more in the financial independent space seems
(37:38):
kind of productive because it's like, well that that was
just a tool to do something else.
Speaker 4 (37:43):
So that's why over the recent years, it's.
Speaker 2 (37:45):
Like, I'm trying to get more into the music community
and things like that, because that's that was the whole point.
Speaker 4 (37:51):
So it's a it's it's tough.
Speaker 2 (37:53):
Because, yeah, you get so focused on something, you get
so good at something, and then once you reach that goal,
the best thing to do is to leave it all behind.
Speaker 4 (38:02):
And that's not natural.
Speaker 3 (38:04):
I mean, essentially, you've in a sense won the money game,
and if you continue to focus on the financial independence
part of it, you are obsessing over that hammer. I mean,
this is why we so we call it the craft
beer equivalent, and this is a part of why we
taught we introduced every episode typically with a beer except
for our Friday flights, is because we're trying to kind
of flex that small muscle of what is it that
(38:26):
you do when it spend money on get creative when
it comes to the different things that you want to pursue,
and so in that way, like what are some of
the other I guess areas of life. So you've already
mentioned synthesizers in your pursuit of electronic music. You've also
mentioned the house, But I guess what are some of
the other ways that you not only see yourself allowing
(38:47):
yourself to spend money, but that you are intentionally trying
to see growth in other areas of your life, that
you are realizing that that's going to lead to long
lasting joy and fulfillment.
Speaker 2 (38:57):
Yeah, that's a great question. And I just reach only
had a remat set to you on the podcast, my
podcast because I knew he would be the one to
push me a bit further. And he was talking to
me about like, okay, like what do you love like
And I've talked to you guys about this when you
arrived because I made you coffee and it's like, yeah,
I love my coffee ritual every day.
Speaker 4 (39:15):
And he's like, well, how can you push that to
the next level?
Speaker 2 (39:18):
And like he pushed me into levels that made me
literally sweat behind the microphone because I was like, that
is ridiculous, Like but I'm starting to do those and
they are great. So it's like he's like, well, what
if you could ten x that spend And I'm like,
I have no idea because the thing that you asked
me to spend on was already like a huge stretch,
Like I couldn't even imagine spending on that. So to
(39:40):
tenx it is just insane. But talking to him through it,
like it actually made sense, and it was like, Okay, yeah,
I could ten x the spend, make absolutely no dent
in the portfolio whatsoever, and yet maybe have this even
more elevated coffee lifestyle than I already have. And so yeah,
so talk him was really important. But also it was
(40:03):
The Die with Zero book that again a bunch of
Matt fientists, readers and listeners recommended, And it was the
fact that it was like, all right, you need to
think about life in different stages, and yes, you could
save up now to have like the ultimate trip when
you're fifty, but when you're twenty, it may be a
lot more fun staying in hostels and getting drunk on
really cheap beer with your best friends. And that really
(40:27):
resonated with me because I do find that, like I
said earlier, the one regret is not, you know, having
ridiculous bachelor parties with my buddies in the twenties, because
that's not that's not going to happen again. So thinking
about where I am at in my life right now,
I'd always dreamed of, like quote unquote proper retiring to
(40:48):
the mountains because I love pond hockey, I love skiing,
I love snow, I love winter. I love everything about
that whole lifestyle. And now that I have a son,
like being able to ski with my son, like that's
just sounds like the best thing in the world. That
was always the dream. So Joe and I were like,
well we can. We'll do primary school in Scotland and
then maybe move to a mountain destination. But then when
(41:10):
I read Dawood Zero, I was like, you know, when
I'm fifty, I may not want to, you know, be
putting my knees through all that skiing that I want
to do now. So rather than yeah, save up a
bunch of money by the perfect mountain house and have
this perfect lifestyle with my ten year old son, maybe
(41:31):
every year we should just run him Airbnb for a
month and have an amazing month.
Speaker 4 (41:36):
And maybe that's enough.
Speaker 2 (41:37):
Maybe I don't need the house, and maybe I don't
need the community. If I have the community here in Scotland,
maybe I can just you know, have a month of
super fun winter and then we have our community here.
Speaker 4 (41:49):
So that's that's the thought this year.
Speaker 2 (41:51):
That's it's going to use that money rather than just
keep stockpiling because that's easy. That's what I've been doing
my whole life, rather than just keep stockpiling. And it's like,
all right, let's use it to have an amazing winter month.
Let's teach my son to ski for the first time,
and maybe that's going to be way better than saving
(42:12):
up all that money for this you know, mountain house
that maybe we won't even get that much use out of.
Speaker 3 (42:16):
Yeah, it takes work to think creatively about how it
is that you can start to spend that money now.
Speaker 4 (42:21):
But like you said before, you're old.
Speaker 3 (42:23):
Into credit, before you're while your knees give out and
you're not able to ski, which the three.
Speaker 1 (42:27):
Of us are getting close to that place in our lives, right.
So okay, so I'm curious. Last question, So, thinking back
to young mad fientists, Brandon, and there are a lot
of how to money lists who are in that camp
who are kind of learning about how to handle money properly,
like what it looks like to be smart with money.
(42:48):
And our thing is all about balance and some of
the fire community, balance doesn't enter the equation no balance,
And so what would you say to someone who's in there,
you know, early mid twenties even early thirties, and they're saying,
I just kind of I'm stumbling upon this. I really
want to handle my money well, so I'm giving myself
more options for the future, but I also don't want
(43:10):
to sacrifice everything in the here. Now, what does it
look like for me to do that in a way
that is like true too and good and good to
my current self, but also yeah, but also good to
my future self.
Speaker 4 (43:23):
That's a great question.
Speaker 2 (43:24):
And yeah, so I would say, you know, I'm talking
down on financial independence.
Speaker 4 (43:29):
But it's absolutely worth it.
Speaker 2 (43:30):
The security of knowing that everything is okay and you
can do whatever you want.
Speaker 4 (43:36):
That's priceless.
Speaker 2 (43:37):
But I would look at every expense that you have
as Okay, is this something I can do in my
twenties and only in my twenties, then go ahead and
do it. But if this is something like a fancy
house or a fancy car, like yeah, when you're forty
and you you know, are stuck at home because you
have kids and you can't travel the world because it's
(43:58):
too complicated, then yeahee cars going to make you super happy,
So leave that for your forties. You don't have to
have everything perfect right away. Like, some of my happiest
times are as a student, and we had nothing when
we were students. So yeah, don't let this seem like
I'm talking down on five because there's not a day
that goes by that I don't appreciate the choices of
(44:20):
my twenties and thirties. But I would say, never let
your job be an excuse for what you really want
to be doing, because you have time. If you're on Twitter,
you have time. If you watch YouTube, you have time.
If you play video games, you have time. And you
just have to do the hard thing and make the
uncomfortable choices to do what you want to do. And
(44:42):
that's not going to change if you have a million,
ten million, one hundred million in the bank. So don't
let your job be an excuse for not doing what
you want to do. Just do the hard work, because
it's much harder to put off the hard work, trust me.
Speaker 4 (44:56):
Yeah, there's a really good quote.
Speaker 2 (44:58):
I can't remember it and I'm going to butcher it,
but it's something along the lines like there's only you
have to make a choice. It's either pain now or
pain later, and that is that is really really the case.
So choose the pain now. Because it'll make later a
lot more fun. You don't have to spend like everyone else.
Speaker 4 (45:16):
I think.
Speaker 2 (45:16):
I think it just boils down to that you need
to experiment because you have no idea what you want.
You think you know what you want, but then you
don't because you try it and you're like, I don't
want this, So experiment in low you know you don't
want to experiment and buy the boat and think, Okay,
this is my experiment because the boat's expensive, but rent
(45:37):
the boat. See if you want to live on the ocean,
and you want because it's it's way, you're going to
sleep terribly. But don't put off your perfect life to FI.
If you are one of the fire people like me
who thought everything would be perfect once you hit FI.
But you know, don't spend like everyone else, because everyone
else is crazy.
Speaker 3 (45:56):
I think that's why, Like I think that's so true.
Pain now or pain later, whether that's when it comes
to saving your money or in your case, spending it,
which I think it is more rare. But what I
hear you saying too is to pay attention to shelf
life right. Pay attention to the limited amount of time
and the limited exposure that you might have to certain experiences.
Don't short change those. And I really like too what
(46:18):
you ended there. When it comes to experimenting, figuring out
what it is that you might actually enjoy, like what
is your craft beer equivalent, it takes some time, It
takes some trial and error to figure out what that
thing is.
Speaker 4 (46:27):
But pick a lot of craft beer for us to
get there. That's true, Randa.
Speaker 3 (46:32):
We really appreciate you chatting with us today on the podcast.
Will make sure to link to the Mad Scientists and
typically we say farewell at this point, but you are
sitting here with us and we are all sharing the
same craft beer. And so during this episode, we enjoyed
a beer by a Verdant.
Speaker 4 (46:49):
This is Putty.
Speaker 3 (46:51):
This is a triple IPA Brandon, I'm gonna toss this
over to you. What were your initial thoughts? What do
you think about this beer?
Speaker 4 (46:57):
I love it.
Speaker 2 (46:58):
So Verdant is one of my favorite ukber and Puddy
with three t's is their triple IPA version of their
flagship once a year release Putty, which I love as well.
So yeah, Putty trip IPA is pretty impressive. And we've
already gone through some cloud water troubles to get to
this stage. So I can't believe I'm stringing any two
(47:20):
words together at this stage because yeah, as a new dad.
As a new dad, Joe and I can maybe handle
one half of a beer before.
Speaker 4 (47:28):
We fall asleep.
Speaker 2 (47:29):
So the fact that we've got through so many triple
IPAs to get to the stage is a pretty pretty
amazing feat. So thank you guys for coming all the
way to rural Scotland to see me, and you guys
are welcome back anytime. And now we're gonna move onto
the Scotch whiskey person of the evening, which is gonna.
Speaker 3 (47:44):
Well, honestly, if you're sharing six different triple IPAs amongst
six people, it actually is not too difficult of a
task the accomplished. But man, this was I want to
just thank you so much because this is an amazing beer.
Like it's got the tropic little citrus notes going on,
but at the same time it's got the sharpness from
the hops. It's so incredibly fresh on a delightful beer.
(48:07):
So thank you for sharing a special one from your
beer fridge.
Speaker 1 (48:11):
See the interesting thing about drinking a great ipa sometimes
that first sip can be a little biting on the
alcohol content and then you have another sip and you're like, dang,
wait a second, that just changed a whole lot and
this beer did just that, and so they had the
verdant triple IPA putty is a delight and one that
we don't have any exposure to back in the States.
(48:31):
You gotta fly all the way to to freaking Scotland
to enjoy. So thanks to Brandon for providing this delicious
beer and this wonderful conversation.
Speaker 4 (48:40):
But that's going to do it.
Speaker 1 (48:41):
We'll have links to everything Brandon related in our show
notes up on the website at howtomoney dot com, and
we'll see you next time here at the how to
Money Podcast. Until next time, Matt, best Friends Out, best
Friends Out the
Welcome to Had to Money.
Speaker 2 (00:01):
I'm Joel and I am Matt and.
Speaker 1 (00:03):
Today we're talking life after financial independence with the Mad Scientist.
Speaker 3 (00:28):
That's right, we are actually talking with Brandon Gansch, also
known as the Mad Fientist. And you might already notice
that it sounds a little bit different than it typically
does when we record a How to Money episode. This
is because we are doing a field recording. We are
actually in Scotland. Joel and I we took a trip
with our wives and we happen to find our way
(00:49):
down where it is that Brandon lives with his wife
and his new son. So first of all, Brandon, he's
originally a programmer. He is a music producer, creates his
own own music. He is a blogger, he's a podcaster,
and we're going to talk about all of the things
that he is up to. This is going to be
maybe a little more of a non traditional episode here
for How to Money, but we wanted to be able
(01:11):
to bring something fun and interesting to all of you
folks out there. So Brandon, thank you so much for
joining us today on the podcast.
Speaker 2 (01:17):
Thank you guys for coming all the way to Scotland.
It's not often that people make their way all the
way out to where we are.
Speaker 4 (01:23):
So I appreciate you guys coming by.
Speaker 1 (01:24):
Oh my goodness, we wanted to come to Scotland, wanted
to hang out with you, two to drink Scotch and
three to enjoy the scenery. But our first question to
every guest we have on the show, Brandon is as
you know, what is your.
Speaker 4 (01:36):
Craft beer equivalent?
Speaker 1 (01:37):
Matt and I love craft beer, and we spend way
too much money on it while we're saving and investing
wisely for the future. So what is that expense in
your life? So he used to be Kraft beer.
Speaker 2 (01:46):
I am also, and that's how we met and how
we formed our close friendship is that we do have
a very similar appreciation of Kraft beer.
Speaker 4 (01:55):
So it used to be that.
Speaker 2 (01:56):
But nine months ago we had a son, and now
I can drink maybe half a half a craft beer.
Speaker 4 (02:03):
Before I want to fall asleep.
Speaker 2 (02:04):
So our craft beer consumption has drastically declined just because
we can't stay awake long enough to enjoy it properly.
But now it seems to be synthesizers, which actually this
year I haven't spent too much on synthesizers today. This year,
this year was mostly buying a house, which we haven't
owned a house for almost ten years, and now that
(02:26):
we have a son, our jet setting lifestyle is over
for the time being, which I'm perfectly happy with. So yeah,
this year has been house but in the in the
past few years has been synthesizers, which you are now
surrounded by this in this makeshift studio.
Speaker 4 (02:43):
That I just set up for you. Guys.
Speaker 3 (02:44):
Yeah, there are multiple moog since sitting here. Honestly, I
wish I knew more about them, But maybe we'll talk
a little bit more about that after.
Speaker 2 (02:53):
Hey, we can fire them up and we can have
forty five minutes of just weird bleeps and bloops and
you'll think our two DT's are two detas was in
the room.
Speaker 4 (03:00):
But yeah, we could do that if you want. Just
let me know. I love it.
Speaker 3 (03:03):
I love it all right, Brandon. So, first of all, honestly,
I'm not totally sure of your financial history. I would
love to know how it is that you got to
learn about basically how to handle your own money. Was
this something that y'all talked about within your own household.
Was this something that you formally learned or is it
something yeah, maybe that you figured out on your own.
Speaker 2 (03:24):
Yeah, I don't know where it came from, but I
loved money ever since I was a kid. My parents
have stories of you know, throwing quarters into the deep
end of the pool, and as soon as I found one,
then I would spend like five hours searching.
Speaker 4 (03:38):
The deep end of the pool to find them.
Speaker 2 (03:40):
And then my grandma actually was like, yeah, you went
home after that night and you called back and said,
did anyone find any more money in the pool. So
I really don't understand where it comes from. But I
always loved money. And then as I got older, I
loved math and I appreciated the fact that hey, you
could invest this money and then it would grow. So
(04:02):
my dad bought me five stock certificates back when they
actually had them on paper, and so I would look
in the newspaper to see how my stocks were doing.
And you know, this was back in the days where
it was like fifty five and one eighth and all
this sort of stuff.
Speaker 4 (04:16):
And I'd look and I'd be like, oh, that's good.
It was it was fifty five.
Speaker 2 (04:20):
Yesterday, So this is I'm making money. So I don't
know because my brother's he's good with money, but he's
not obsessed with money like I was.
Speaker 4 (04:29):
So I think there's.
Speaker 2 (04:29):
Some innate money loving in my life. But yeah, I
guess the fact that I do love math and I
can appreciate even though I can't like fully comprehend like
compound interests, like it's still a difficult thing to like
visualize and imagine, but I think I appreciated it more
than the average person.
Speaker 1 (04:50):
I guess that's so funny because I feel like my
fascination with money, or the way I started off, was
so much more emotional than mathematical. My parents not handling
money terribly well, and it becoming just like this this
thing in our family that and me at a particular
age where I was more susceptible to feeling a different
sense of what was happening in our family than my
(05:11):
younger sister who was too young to understand, my older
sister who was kind of in high school hanging.
Speaker 4 (05:16):
Out with boys.
Speaker 1 (05:17):
And I'm in this middle school Joel, who is particularly
vulnerable to kind of what's going on with the family finances.
So I'm curious, and so much of your content on
Mad Scientists on your website has really revolved around a
lot of the mathematics, around money. The way you write
about kind of handling taxes and retirement accounts, you've really
(05:37):
you really dove into the weeds. And I feel like
when you started there was no other source on the
web talking about money really in such like an approachable
but also nuanced a way. So kind of what made
you dive so deeply into how to handle money from
like a financial independence perspective.
Speaker 2 (05:56):
Yeah, I think that's a really good point because I
guess it was my age, maybe when my parents got
divorced and then it was mainly my mom raised in
two boys, and you know, money was always tight, and
it was always a focus, and it was never to
be wasted. And maybe maybe I've never really thought about
it like that, but I think that's a really good point.
Like my age at that time really understood that, whereas
(06:18):
maybe my brother was like, ah, everything's fine, we have
everything we need, and we always did have everything we needed,
and I never felt like we were wanting for anything.
But I also realized how important it was to not
waste the money. So I think I think that's a
really good point because I think one my age at
the time of you know, the divorce and maybe going
(06:41):
off and being raised by my mom predominantly allowed me
to appreciate money. But then also as a kindergartener having
a divorce and being like feeling like you're sort of
out of control. Then the math math doesn't lie, and
you can plan.
Speaker 4 (06:57):
You know, you can.
Speaker 2 (06:58):
Plan really and like the math doesn't lie if you
if you follow these steps and you add that much
and it's going to grow at this much, then that works.
So I think maybe that's what could have driven the
later stuff that, like the actual math fnd is stuff.
It's like, Okay, I have this control over my life
and maybe as a kid, I didn't feel like I
had that control.
Speaker 4 (07:18):
Yeah, that's really deep.
Speaker 2 (07:20):
Maybe we've maybe we've broken through some here and I
can understand myself a little better.
Speaker 3 (07:25):
Tools might might be taken a leave out of his
wife's book when it comes to counseling, but I.
Speaker 4 (07:29):
Think that's that's so true. We talk about the different.
Speaker 3 (07:31):
Ways that we seek to create control or you know,
we try to create order within our lives and just
the world. It seems like a very chaotic place.
Speaker 4 (07:39):
And so if there's a way that you.
Speaker 3 (07:40):
Can basically put your finger on it, I completely understand
the desire from an analytical standpoint to control something and
to understand how it is that something works where it
feels like it's not just completely going off the rails.
But so for you, that was certainly a personal sort
of way that you saw that manifest in your in
your life. How is it that you came about actually
then publicly writing about personal finances and specifically I guess
(08:03):
launching the mad Fientist blog.
Speaker 2 (08:05):
Yeah, well that that was the really exciting thing. So so, yeah,
you have to go back. I'm in my late twenties.
My twenties, I had all these big plans like this
is how I was going to live my life, and
I was going to create all these amazing things, and
I was really excited about it. And then the twenties
just grind grinded on.
Speaker 4 (08:23):
And then when I.
Speaker 2 (08:24):
Turned thirty, I had this meltdown. It was like a
middle life crisis. But when I was thirty, it was
very embarrassing, which it's a funny story now, but it
was super embarrassing at the time. We went up to
jp Vermont, I had I don't know, like eight six
or eight friends that we went skiing. We had a
great day skiing. I turned thirty and I was like,
what have I done with my life? I've done nothing. Jill,
(08:46):
my now wife was a girlfriend at the time, took
that personally, like, what do you mean You've done nothing?
Like We've built this amazing life together. I'm like, I've
done nothing. I had this it was embarrassing. Everyone went
to bed sad and we after this great day of skiing.
And but it was because I felt like that, because
I like, I hadn't accomplished anything that I thought I
(09:07):
wanted to accomplish. I hadn't built anything I wanted to build.
I overanalyzed everything that I wanted to do, like I
would just overanalyze it to death until I thought it
was a stupid idea. And that's I created the Medfientist
a few days later because I was like, I'm so
excited about this idea of financial independence. Because I got
introduced by to financial independence through get rich Slowly, which
(09:30):
those three words or exactly what I wanted to do.
I was like, yeah, I just want to get rich slowly,
Like I don't want to live a flashy lifestyle or anything.
I just want to get rich slowly. I want to
be comfortable, I want to be secure. I want to
be able to do what I want because throughout my life,
I've always felt like I've known best and like I,
like I mentioned earlier, like I do like control, and
I like I've thought about things more than the average person.
(09:52):
So like taking instructions from a boss that I didn't
feel like they understood everything was very hard for me.
So like, I wanted to get to a place where
I could call the shots and be secure and all
of that thing. So when I found get rich Slowly,
I was like, oh, yeah, that's exactly what I'm gonna do.
I want to do it properly. I don't want to
just do the next fad. I just want to get
(10:13):
rich slowly. And then he interviewed Jacob Lenfisker, and Jacob
had written a book called Early Retirement Extreme, and he
laid out the math and it was just so simple.
But I'd never thought of it in that way before,
and it was just, Okay, yeah, you can stop working.
Speaker 4 (10:30):
Retirement's not an age.
Speaker 2 (10:31):
It's a time when your assets are a certain multiple
of your expenses. And that changed everything because I was like,
all right, here we go. That's simple math. I love math.
I can understand that. And yeah, it's not this dream
destination when you hit sixty. It's actually just a function
of your spending, and my spending can be reduced and
(10:55):
my income can be increased.
Speaker 4 (10:57):
And it was the.
Speaker 2 (10:59):
Thing that I was most I did about at that time.
So I turned thirty in twenty twelve January and I
launched them at fientists like I think February second of
twenty twelve, because I was like, I could overanalyze.
Speaker 4 (11:11):
This to death.
Speaker 2 (11:12):
I could start in LLC when I don't need one.
I can worry about the legal ramifications of giving financial
advice on the internet, all these things that don't matter
because I have no readers. Or I could just start
it because my twenties were all of that stuff.
Speaker 4 (11:28):
So I just started it.
Speaker 2 (11:29):
I asked mister money Mustache to be my first guest
on my podcast because he was a software developer like me,
had no idea how big he was or how big
he would become. And yeah, just went from there. So
it was a lot of luck for timing wise, but
it was also just me reaching the end of the
rope of like overanalyzing things to death. I just needed
(11:50):
to take action.
Speaker 4 (11:50):
That's funny.
Speaker 1 (11:51):
When you were talking about kind of your goal behind
financial independence, not to become super wealthy or anything like that.
It made me think of our friends Julian and Kirsten,
who'd do rich in regular and I love kind of
that those three words in tandem, rich and regular, and
that is like kind of the aspiration of that Matt
and I have as well. It's wealthy over a long
period of time. It is nothing flashy. It is it
(12:14):
really old, pretty ugly minivans, and people assume when we
drive around town, oh, like that's that person doesn't have
any money. So talk to me though about that. Because
wealth can, I think, have a certain flash, you can
show it off. There are ways to make people understand
that you are a person of means. Why was that
(12:35):
never anything that you aspired to when you kind of
figure out figured out what money can do, what money
can be. How come that was never one of the
goals of money for you.
Speaker 2 (12:44):
That was the luckiest thing I think about my journey.
It was the fact that not only was that not
important to me, but it was like actually the reverse,
Like I wanted to downplay it. I still want to
downplay it.
Speaker 4 (12:56):
You guys are.
Speaker 2 (12:56):
Sitting in the brand new house that we bought, and
it is grander and flashier than anything I've ever purchased
in my life, and I still feel very weird about it,
not to say I'm not happy, Like I love it,
I love everything about it, but it is I would
I would be more comfortable if it was less grand
and less I don't know, it just stands out a
(13:17):
little bit too much. But the real estate market's crazy,
and this was the absolutely the best thing that we've seen.
Speaker 4 (13:23):
On the market.
Speaker 2 (13:24):
So I'm so happy that we got it, and I'm
absolutely thrilled about it. But yeah, I don't I don't
know where that comes from. I think it's my grandparents
struggled and they had you know, they had three kids
and all they had four kids, and they had a
bunch of foster kids, and they were always like every
penny was to be looked after and not to be wasted.
(13:46):
And the same with my upbringing. So it's like and
all my friends and every No, I don't.
Speaker 4 (13:52):
Have rich friends. I don't have rich tastes.
Speaker 2 (13:54):
Yes, I love going to like a really fancy restaurant
once in a while for a treat, but I'd be
much more comfortable getting like a really good burger and.
Speaker 4 (14:01):
Stuff like that.
Speaker 2 (14:02):
So it's like my identity is so tied to like
middle class that the fact that the money in the
bank isn't that anymore is very hard to come to
terms with, because money is really useful, like this house
is in particular, is like testament to that, like using
(14:23):
money to buy nice things is really actually good, and
like for my entire life, I've always kept myself from
doing that because I was saving and saving and saving
to get to financial independence. But now that we've been
here for the last six years and the portfolio has
grown even despite just using it, it's like, Okay, this
(14:43):
is going to snowball out of control because compound interest
is an actually really powerful thing. So we got to
start spending it. And every single change we've made so far,
except maybe a business class flight that wasn't worth the
extra money or the extra miles I couldn't I couldn't
use money. I used miles, but it wasn't worth the
extra miles.
Speaker 4 (15:04):
But every every other.
Speaker 2 (15:05):
Thing that we've pushed ourselves to spend a little bit
more has been worth it. So for someone who's supernaturally
frugal has a blog about frugality and like saving a
bunch of money. I'm surprised over the last two years
that I've let myself relax a little bit.
Speaker 4 (15:21):
How much fun spending is so Like, it's.
Speaker 2 (15:24):
Weird to be talking about that because yeah, like as
a frugality blogger, but it's been it's been so much fun.
Like I money has been more fun to spend than
it has been to save recently. But it's only because
I know that I'm not like making a huge dent
into that before though, so I think that may be
the difference. It's like, yeah, spending when I didn't have
a lot now just stress me out because I wasn't saving.
(15:46):
But now that I know that we're set, like, it
has been nice to just relax a little bit, which
is a huge surprise.
Speaker 3 (15:52):
You're you're talking about lifestyle and how it is that
you're spending money, and it's funny that you consider your
I mean, you mentioned like a frugality blogger when it
seems like so much of what you honestly what you
specialize in and what I think folks go to you
for is the number crunching. It's more of the analytical
side of things. But I actually I do have a
quick follow up about consumption and spending, and we're going
(16:14):
to talk a little bit about fire, financial independence, retiring early,
and we'll get to some of those questions right after
this break. All right, we are back from the break.
And by the way, I wanted to mention Brandon, you
(16:35):
were so incredibly generous and we have already enjoyed a
couple very delicious, very amazing beers. And Brandon was not
joking when you mentioned how we share a love of
craft beer and we have some of the finest here.
I just took a sept from mine and it's so
stinking good. We'll talk about our thoughts on the beer
at the end of the episode. But right before the break,
I was we were talking about consumption, like was there
(16:57):
a point? Was there like did a light turn on?
Was there a switch that flipped that allowed you to
start spending money to kind of shift from that frugality
mindset to actually start enjoying some of your money, Like
when did that point in time come for you?
Speaker 2 (17:12):
So I had created a software application prior to even
starting The Mad Scientist, and it started generating more income
than we actually spend. So it was at that point
where I was like, Okay, we have this five portfolio
that is meant to be providing all of our spending money,
we're not even touching it because this application that I
(17:33):
created a year or two before is actually bringing in more.
So it was at that point I was like, this
is ridiculous. So what I need to do is at
least spend what the fire portfolio could generate every year
in perpetuity, which is the whole point of saving up
a big portfolio and pursuing FI. So that amount was
(17:54):
about double what we normally spent over the last decade.
Speaker 4 (17:58):
So I've never hit that target.
Speaker 2 (18:00):
It's been a target for the past three years, and
I got I got fairly close the first year because
I was we were traveling a lot that was post pandemic,
so I was like, Okay, we're gonna We're gonna go
and see my family. We're gonna go and travel, and like,
we've been pent up in this one bedroom Edinburgh apartment
for a whole year, so let's go crazy. And we
got sort of close, but we didn't. We didn't hit
(18:21):
the target. Last year, we moved into a rental, which
I knew was going to be our last rental before
buying a place, so I was like, this will allow
us to buy the things that we want to buy
because we're only gonna have to move them one more time.
So I bought like a super fancy coffee grinder, which
you guys got the he got to reap the benefits
of with a nice coffee when you arrived, and things
(18:42):
like that, and we sort of got we got less
close because that was I had a list of things
I wanted to buy for a lot of years and
it wasn't It was a small list because I don't
like stuff. So then this year we were really, we
were really lagging behind the target. But then we just
bought a house, So I think we're gonna maybe hit
it this year because we're trying to furnish a house.
(19:03):
Even though it's been furnished when we bought it, which
was super nice, we're still adding a few things to it.
So maybe we'll get close this year. But this year
I've set the target that if I don't spend it,
I have to give it away because I also want
to try to get better at give it away to
charity because I just feel like we've been so fortunate,
but old habits die hard, So I'm still gripping every
(19:24):
penny with an iron fist, which I need to get
better at not doing, because yeah, it's just counter productive
at this stage.
Speaker 4 (19:31):
So whatever we.
Speaker 2 (19:33):
Don't spender under that goal going to give it away
to charity, which is a whole other thing I need
to explore. So yeah, so it was really the fact
that got to a point where didn't even draw down
on the fire portfolio and realized I needed to start
thinking about it. And then recently the Die with Zera
book has been really influential, and that's only because Matt
(19:55):
Fiintis readers and listeners actually recommended it when I was
talking about the stuff spend really impactful because he talks
about you need to enjoy your money at certain stages,
like right now, Like I'm forty one, and you know,
I love skiing, so I need to spend on skiing
now because maybe when I'm fifty, I'm going to be
(20:17):
in a lot less physical shape that.
Speaker 4 (20:20):
Maybe it's not going to be as fun.
Speaker 2 (20:21):
And my son's young, so doing stuff with him is
going to be more fun now when he's young than
maybe when he's a teenager and doesn't want to hang
out with me and things like that, So it's put
a whole news perspective on things. And like I said before,
like I've enjoyed every little bit of the increase that
we've done it. And again, we're not spending even probably
(20:42):
what a typical American spends just normally. But every change
we made is spend beneficial so far.
Speaker 1 (20:49):
It's so it's so interesting to hear you talk about
kind of those those trying to change the dial on
saving or spending, because they're really two different approaches to money.
And those years of being frugal and you know, saving
and investing half or more of your income, which is
(21:09):
kind of what the fire person is into, is like
one way of approaching money, and then spending down that
portfolio is a different, completely different way of thinking about money.
But talk to me about I'm curious a lot of
people who are in the fire movement. I guess at
a certain point in time they might say, Wow, this
(21:29):
is really difficult to be setting aside this much of
my income. It's a really hard thing than to change
your mentality. And so do you wish does any part
of you wish you could go back to some of
those early days when you were saving such an extreme
amount of your income and say, I wish I would
have lived it up a little more. I wish I
(21:50):
would have saved a little bit less.
Speaker 2 (21:52):
Extremely Yeah, so I'm very lucky in the sense that
I don't have very many regrets. Joe and I we
travel to like fifty countries in our twenties and thirties,
and travel was like the big thing for me, and like, yeah,
I got really good at travel hacking and using points
and miles to make it cheap. But yeah, I'm glad
we did that when we were young, because a lot
(22:13):
of that travel I wouldn't want to do now in
my forties, So I'm really thankful for that. I'm thankful
that we didn't sacrifice that to like some glorious like
around the World trip when we're fifty or sixty, because
it just wouldn't be as fun, because travel in the
forties is definitely not as fun as it was in
the twenties. The only regrets I have from my entire
fire journey is missing out on a few things in
(22:36):
my twenties. So for instance, like my buddies were getting married,
so like the bachelor party would be a month before
the wedding, and I'm like, I live in Scotland. I'm
not going to travel back to the States in June
and then come back in July for the wedding.
Speaker 4 (22:53):
Like I'll come to the wedding, that's the.
Speaker 2 (22:54):
Important thing, you know, Like I'll give you my gifts
and get to catch up and all that stuff. But
I'm not going to come just to get wasted for
one night in June and then come all the way
back in July. But I do regret that because just
like the Die with Zero book says, those trips aren't
coming back. My buddies have stories that I'm not included
in because I wasn't there, and it would have been
(23:17):
so hard to spend that much money. Like even now,
knowing what I know now, it was still been a
really hard thing to spend that money to make two
translating trips within a month. But yeah, I didn't miss
out out on that stuff. So those are literally the
only things that I'm regretful of in my journey to FI. Like,
(23:39):
I'm glad I lived the lifestyle that we lived so
that we can live the lifestyle that we live now.
I'm glad that we just let our lifestyle gradually increase.
So even though our money was drastically increasing, with our
salaries increasing and side businesses increasing. We just gradually let
it increase, and that's what's made it fun all these years.
Like how do I let it drastically increase in my
(24:01):
twenties When I could have, I would probably be sick
of whatever I was doing in my twenties, whereas now,
like just the fact that we own a house again.
Speaker 4 (24:10):
Is like a glorious thing.
Speaker 2 (24:11):
It's like, Wow, I can put stuff in this drawer
and it's going to be in that drawer for the
next X number of years. Like that is like amazing
to me right now. So I'm glad we did it
gradually because yeah, you get to appreciate it more.
Speaker 4 (24:25):
And I say this on my podcast a lot.
Speaker 2 (24:27):
It's like we're really bad at knowing what we actually
want in life, so experimenting is the only way to
really know what you want. So we get to run
all these fun experiments and some of them don't work out.
Speaker 4 (24:38):
And some of them do.
Speaker 2 (24:39):
But but yeah, we could have easily just gone from
you know, broke students to like making whatever six figures
and having that whole lifestyle.
Speaker 4 (24:48):
But it's like, what would we.
Speaker 2 (24:49):
Get to look forward to in our forties, like long
answer to your question, But yeah, there's only one thing
I regret, and that is missing just a few bachelor
parties with my friends, because I'm even if we did
those trips again, we wouldn't be twenty year old idiots
like we would have been at that time, and we
wouldn't have the stories that resulted from this twenty year
old idiot extravagances. So but yeah, besides that, thankfully we
(25:13):
uh I didn't sacrifice too much.
Speaker 3 (25:15):
I've got one more follow up. I guess when it
comes to how it is that you spend money, but
it sounds like that you were frugal, but it sounds
like you also had Jill. So Jill is your wife,
and that it seemed like she was on board. I
haven't heard many.
Speaker 2 (25:28):
Stories shared, at least about.
Speaker 3 (25:30):
Maybe y'all you know, knocking heads when it comes to
whether it's spending money or saving money or some of
the different decisions. How were you able to get her
on board so easily? And you're shaking your head no,
And so if you if you weren't able to, how,
I guess what lessons did you learn along the way.
Speaker 2 (25:48):
Jill was never like she was never flashy or never extravagant.
But if the money was in her account, it was
spent it. It wasn't it was like, yeah, it's there,
I'll spend it. It was yeah, I'm gonna end was
zero at the end of the month, It's fine, it
doesn't matter. It's like, there's my money, I'm going to
use it. So luckily, it wasn't like battling against some
sort of like I need to show how successful I am,
(26:10):
or I need to show extravagant I am. It wasn't
anything like that. It was more like, all right, the
money's in the account, I'll spend it. She never really
understood why I was so intent on saving. It wasn't
until we really sat down. It was on our honeymoon. Actually,
so we dated for ten years before we got married.
So by the time our honeymoon rolled around, I was like, well, like,
(26:33):
what's your perfect life look like? She's like, well, what
do you mean perfect life? I was like, well, if
you could design exactly how you want to.
Speaker 4 (26:40):
Live, what is it like.
Speaker 2 (26:41):
She's like, what do you mean that's a stupid question.
Speaker 4 (26:44):
Like I just I work like everybody else.
Speaker 2 (26:48):
I cooked dinner and then you know, we just live
this normal existence. I was like, no, it doesn't have
to be like that, Like how would you design it?
If you could design it? And it was only when
we went through that exercise, and it wasn't a quick exercise.
It lasted well beyond the honeymoon. It was like lots
of discussions, lots of thinking about it, and like it
(27:09):
was only then that she realized, oh, you know, I
don't have to be driving to some office while she's
an uptomicist, but driving to some clinic forty hours a
week and being stuck there and having our whatever a
few weeks of vacation every year, Like we could actually
design it in a different way.
Speaker 4 (27:26):
And that was the turning point.
Speaker 2 (27:28):
So and then obviously starting the mad fientists help. So
I started that in twenty twelve, started interviewing other people
that thought like me. So she wasn't hearing it from me.
The last thing she wanted to do was get lectured
by me about how to deal with money. So hearing
from other people that thought differently about money was really helpful.
(27:48):
So I think it was the combination of those two things.
Speaker 3 (27:50):
It almost seems like so obviously the question of asking
what should like what would our perfect life look like it.
It seems like that was a turning point where you
could start to like, essentially you're starting with the end
in mind and what steps do we need to take
in order to get there. Sounds like that was huge.
But what you're talking about now is like I hear
you talk about if you're not going to spend a
certain amount of money this year, like you're talking about
(28:11):
giving it away. So essentially for you, what seems to
be working now is essentially creating rules. You're basically creating
like an algorithm, a formula that is going to work
for you, and you know that if you don't follow
through and if X doesn't happen, well why is going
to happen? And I think that's important to point out
that for some individuals, depending on how it is that
you process and how it is that you think, it
(28:32):
might literally whether it's coming up with a formula with
an XL or even just writing out on a sheet
of paper saying that my goal is to spend X
amount of my expendable income this year, or my goal
is to set aside this much for retirement, whatever it is.
I think for the individual, you have to figure out
the different approaches that are going to work for you.
(28:54):
That is going to be able to move the needle,
whether it comes to how much you're able to invest
your money or even in your case, it seems like
how much money you're going to spend. And so it
seems like that that's actually working out for you.
Speaker 4 (29:03):
Oh yeah, my entire life is run by spreadsheets.
Speaker 2 (29:05):
So once I wasn't having spreadsheets to figure out how
much I was saving, I need to have spreadsheets to
tell me how much to spend. And yeah, just the
way my brain works, Like, I do enjoy that and
it does take my brain out of it a bit
as well. It's like it was very helpful on the
saving path because I knew, like this is what I
wanted to do and this is how I was going
(29:26):
to do it. But it's super helpful now because it's like,
I know I want to spend this much. I know
that's going to be a struggle. So then when I'm
out and about and a potential expense comes up, I'm like,
rather than before my entire life has been oh no,
spending is the worst thing that you can do. It's
(29:48):
the last ditch effort. It means you haven't spent twenty
hours on the internet trying to figure out a way
to come and get that same thing for way cheaper
or free. It means that you've failed. And so so
this is what you have to do. You have to spend.
So it's flip that and now it's like, Okay, I
have to spend this much more. So that's the no
(30:09):
brainer thing to do. I just do that and then
it helps me reach my other goal of spending this amount.
And yeah, for a naturally frugal person, it's been absolutely
ga game changing. And I realize how ridiculous it sounds,
and I know this is going to be a small
subset of the audience, but for all the fire people
out there, they know how this feels. And like even
(30:31):
some very famous fire people, I see them struggling a
lot with how to how to actually spend and utilize
the money that they saved up, because yeah, when you're gone,
money is meaningless, which it is all along, but we
at least trick ourselves into think it's not.
Speaker 1 (30:50):
Yeah, man, I feel like we're such kindred spirits. We
approach money into completely different ways, but we have so
many similar thoughts and approaches and feelings towards it too,
So that's just yeah, fun to hear your perspective on that.
But we want to specifically talk about your life post five.
You've got a kiddo now that changes everything, as we
all know, anybody who has kids knows that that like
(31:11):
throws a wrench in every single one of our plans.
So we'll talk about that and just really, you know,
what life post financial independence has been like for more
than half a decade. We'll talk about more along those
lines with Brandon the Mad Fientist right after this.
Speaker 4 (31:34):
All right, we're back.
Speaker 1 (31:34):
We're still talking with the mad Scientists, our good friend
Brandon Gansch, and he is I mean really kind of
the OG in the Fire movement or one of the
OG's right, And we were talking earlier about just the
different generations of firefolks who have like you are essentially
the grandfather, like you were one of the originals. Well,
I feel like early retirement extreme was probably where Brandon
(31:56):
got it from, was like the original original writing. Nothing
it's more original than that, right, yeah, which is pretty
Jacob Lundfisker. So, but yeah, I want to talk about
what life has been like after you reached that point.
Obviously a lot of sacrifices, a lot of years, a
lot of saving a lot more than you make. And
our audience, again, a lot of some of our audiences
(32:17):
into the fire stuff more. A big chunk of our
audience is also really into like basic personal finance, but
financial independence. Matt and I always come at this conversation
about money from that perspective that maybe not retiring early,
but reaching financial independence within a reasonable amount of time
is a really good goal. So talk about what life
has been like once you kind of hit that goal.
(32:39):
It certainly seems like in those first couple of years
there was a little bit of like wheel spinning that
you were not quite sure what life was going to
look like. Maybe you have this big old financial goal
that you wanted to hit, and then once you hit it,
you were like, I don't know what to do right now?
Speaker 4 (32:54):
Yeah, big time.
Speaker 2 (32:55):
So for me, like I felt incorrectly that my job
was holding me back from everything that I wanted to do.
So I blamed my job on the reason that I
hadn't written an album like I'd always wanted to do
since I was a kid. I blamed my job for
the reason I hadn't started a business like I'd always
wanted to do. When I was maybe twenty plus, I
(33:16):
blamed my job for everything, and only after getting rid
of the job did I realize that my job had
nothing to do with any of that stuff. So the
first few years were weird. The first one was amazing.
So the first year after leaving my job, I was like,
this is amazing. Jill and I traveled all the way
around the world, used a bunch of our miles to
travel in like business class and try to try out
(33:38):
all that stuff. And we lived in Thailand and we
did all that stuff and it was amazing and it
was really fun.
Speaker 4 (33:43):
You know. A couple months in, we're.
Speaker 2 (33:45):
Like, okay, another temple who cares like this isn't the
like Jill knew it Jill. Jill wanted to do a
one month trip. I wanted to do a one year trip.
We settled on three months. By two months in, I
was like, God, Jill was right. She's always right, but
she lets me learn from my mistakes in practice rather
(34:06):
than lecturing me, So that's nice. So yeah, I was like, yeah,
it's another temple Jesus, Like it's lost its appeal. So
so then it was like Okay, well I still haven't
written that album that I always said I was gonna write,
and like, I haven't been an entrepreneur like I thought
it would be, and all this stuff, and you realize
that your job's.
Speaker 4 (34:26):
Not stopping you from that.
Speaker 2 (34:28):
It's self doubt, it's all the things that are the
things that every creative person has to go through to
create anything that they like. It's like you feel like
it's the worst thing that's ever been produced, and you
just all that stuff. It's like, so, yeah, not having
a job lets you more or less be miserable for
(34:50):
twenty four hours a day because the reason you're not
successful was all in your hands. And that's a very
difficult pill to swallow. And it was only the pandemic
that saved me, to be honest, because we had moved
to Edinburgh.
Speaker 4 (35:04):
The whole city shut down.
Speaker 2 (35:05):
The UK was way more lockdown than the States, I think,
and we had no options and it was like, all right, well,
you know, I've got the money to not have a job.
I've got absolutely no distractions because we can literally only
leave our apartment for one hour day it's for exercise,
and you can't even sit in the park. You have
to walk in the park because sitting is not exercise,
(35:25):
and it's like, Okay, I have to do this thing
that I said I'd always want to do, and that
was writ an album. And I spent that entire year
writing the album. I did it, and it is still
my proudest accomplishment of all time because I know how
much awful self doubt, in like just torturous hours trying
things it took to make it. And I think that
(35:49):
I think that's the big lesson because people like me,
like I definitely did it, are racing towards five because
they think it's going to solve all of their problems.
And it literally solves because when you log into your
bank account and you see a number on the screen,
you know a slightly larger number on that screen is
going to do nothing for your actual real life or
(36:10):
your real happiness. It's what you do with the knowledge
that you have that extra larger number in the screen
that really matters. And that's tough and it's tough to
figure out how to do that when you're not practiced
in it, and I wasn't practiced in it because all
my focus and all my energy was towards saving and
(36:33):
once I had saved enough, it was like, well, okay,
now what I haven't worked on that entrepreneurial muscle. I
haven't worked on that music muscle. I haven't worked on
the spending muscle. I've not worked any of that, and
they've all atrophied to nothing. Yes, I know how to save,
and that's something I really see in the fire movement
(36:56):
and which is why I've sort of backed away from
it over recent years. Is a lot of people it
seems like they get to fire and they want to
just integrate themselves more into the fire community, and that
just seems kind of productive to me because it's like
reaching financial independence is like, you know, you get really
good at using a hammer because you want to build,
(37:17):
Say I want to build a model airplane and you
want to build a boat, and yeah, everyone, it's it's
fun to talk about that hammer while you're building. But
then afterwards you want to hang out with boat people
or I want to hang out with model airplane people.
So that to reach FI and then just want to
just hang out more in the financial independent space seems
(37:38):
kind of productive because it's like, well that that was
just a tool to do something else.
Speaker 4 (37:43):
So that's why over the recent years, it's.
Speaker 2 (37:45):
Like, I'm trying to get more into the music community
and things like that, because that's that was the whole point.
Speaker 4 (37:51):
So it's a it's it's tough.
Speaker 2 (37:53):
Because, yeah, you get so focused on something, you get
so good at something, and then once you reach that goal,
the best thing to do is to leave it all behind.
Speaker 4 (38:02):
And that's not natural.
Speaker 3 (38:04):
I mean, essentially, you've in a sense won the money game,
and if you continue to focus on the financial independence
part of it, you are obsessing over that hammer. I mean,
this is why we so we call it the craft
beer equivalent, and this is a part of why we
taught we introduced every episode typically with a beer except
for our Friday flights, is because we're trying to kind
of flex that small muscle of what is it that
(38:26):
you do when it spend money on get creative when
it comes to the different things that you want to pursue,
and so in that way, like what are some of
the other I guess areas of life. So you've already
mentioned synthesizers in your pursuit of electronic music. You've also
mentioned the house, But I guess what are some of
the other ways that you not only see yourself allowing
(38:47):
yourself to spend money, but that you are intentionally trying
to see growth in other areas of your life, that
you are realizing that that's going to lead to long
lasting joy and fulfillment.
Speaker 2 (38:57):
Yeah, that's a great question. And I just reach only
had a remat set to you on the podcast, my
podcast because I knew he would be the one to
push me a bit further. And he was talking to
me about like, okay, like what do you love like
And I've talked to you guys about this when you
arrived because I made you coffee and it's like, yeah,
I love my coffee ritual every day.
Speaker 4 (39:15):
And he's like, well, how can you push that to
the next level?
Speaker 2 (39:18):
And like he pushed me into levels that made me
literally sweat behind the microphone because I was like, that
is ridiculous, Like but I'm starting to do those and
they are great. So it's like he's like, well, what
if you could ten x that spend And I'm like,
I have no idea because the thing that you asked
me to spend on was already like a huge stretch,
Like I couldn't even imagine spending on that. So to
(39:40):
tenx it is just insane. But talking to him through it,
like it actually made sense, and it was like, Okay, yeah,
I could ten x the spend, make absolutely no dent
in the portfolio whatsoever, and yet maybe have this even
more elevated coffee lifestyle than I already have. And so yeah,
so talk him was really important. But also it was
(40:03):
The Die with Zero book that again a bunch of
Matt fientists, readers and listeners recommended, And it was the
fact that it was like, all right, you need to
think about life in different stages, and yes, you could
save up now to have like the ultimate trip when
you're fifty, but when you're twenty, it may be a
lot more fun staying in hostels and getting drunk on
really cheap beer with your best friends. And that really
(40:27):
resonated with me because I do find that, like I
said earlier, the one regret is not, you know, having
ridiculous bachelor parties with my buddies in the twenties, because
that's not that's not going to happen again. So thinking
about where I am at in my life right now,
I'd always dreamed of, like quote unquote proper retiring to
(40:48):
the mountains because I love pond hockey, I love skiing,
I love snow, I love winter. I love everything about
that whole lifestyle. And now that I have a son,
like being able to ski with my son, like that's
just sounds like the best thing in the world. That
was always the dream. So Joe and I were like,
well we can. We'll do primary school in Scotland and
then maybe move to a mountain destination. But then when
(41:10):
I read Dawood Zero, I was like, you know, when
I'm fifty, I may not want to, you know, be
putting my knees through all that skiing that I want
to do now. So rather than yeah, save up a
bunch of money by the perfect mountain house and have
this perfect lifestyle with my ten year old son, maybe
(41:31):
every year we should just run him Airbnb for a
month and have an amazing month.
Speaker 4 (41:36):
And maybe that's enough.
Speaker 2 (41:37):
Maybe I don't need the house, and maybe I don't
need the community. If I have the community here in Scotland,
maybe I can just you know, have a month of
super fun winter and then we have our community here.
Speaker 4 (41:49):
So that's that's the thought this year.
Speaker 2 (41:51):
That's it's going to use that money rather than just
keep stockpiling because that's easy. That's what I've been doing
my whole life, rather than just keep stockpiling. And it's like,
all right, let's use it to have an amazing winter month.
Let's teach my son to ski for the first time,
and maybe that's going to be way better than saving
(42:12):
up all that money for this you know, mountain house
that maybe we won't even get that much use out of.
Speaker 3 (42:16):
Yeah, it takes work to think creatively about how it
is that you can start to spend that money now.
Speaker 4 (42:21):
But like you said before, you're old.
Speaker 3 (42:23):
Into credit, before you're while your knees give out and
you're not able to ski, which the three.
Speaker 1 (42:27):
Of us are getting close to that place in our lives, right.
So okay, so I'm curious. Last question, So, thinking back
to young mad fientists, Brandon, and there are a lot
of how to money lists who are in that camp
who are kind of learning about how to handle money properly,
like what it looks like to be smart with money.
(42:48):
And our thing is all about balance and some of
the fire community, balance doesn't enter the equation no balance,
And so what would you say to someone who's in there,
you know, early mid twenties even early thirties, and they're saying,
I just kind of I'm stumbling upon this. I really
want to handle my money well, so I'm giving myself
more options for the future, but I also don't want
(43:10):
to sacrifice everything in the here. Now, what does it
look like for me to do that in a way
that is like true too and good and good to
my current self, but also yeah, but also good to
my future self.
Speaker 4 (43:23):
That's a great question.
Speaker 2 (43:24):
And yeah, so I would say, you know, I'm talking
down on financial independence.
Speaker 4 (43:29):
But it's absolutely worth it.
Speaker 2 (43:30):
The security of knowing that everything is okay and you
can do whatever you want.
Speaker 4 (43:36):
That's priceless.
Speaker 2 (43:37):
But I would look at every expense that you have
as Okay, is this something I can do in my
twenties and only in my twenties, then go ahead and
do it. But if this is something like a fancy
house or a fancy car, like yeah, when you're forty
and you you know, are stuck at home because you
have kids and you can't travel the world because it's
(43:58):
too complicated, then yeahee cars going to make you super happy,
So leave that for your forties. You don't have to
have everything perfect right away. Like, some of my happiest
times are as a student, and we had nothing when
we were students. So yeah, don't let this seem like
I'm talking down on five because there's not a day
that goes by that I don't appreciate the choices of
(44:20):
my twenties and thirties. But I would say, never let
your job be an excuse for what you really want
to be doing, because you have time. If you're on Twitter,
you have time. If you watch YouTube, you have time.
If you play video games, you have time. And you
just have to do the hard thing and make the
uncomfortable choices to do what you want to do. And
(44:42):
that's not going to change if you have a million,
ten million, one hundred million in the bank. So don't
let your job be an excuse for not doing what
you want to do. Just do the hard work, because
it's much harder to put off the hard work, trust me.
Speaker 4 (44:56):
Yeah, there's a really good quote.
Speaker 2 (44:58):
I can't remember it and I'm going to butcher it,
but it's something along the lines like there's only you
have to make a choice. It's either pain now or
pain later, and that is that is really really the case.
So choose the pain now. Because it'll make later a
lot more fun. You don't have to spend like everyone else.
Speaker 4 (45:16):
I think.
Speaker 2 (45:16):
I think it just boils down to that you need
to experiment because you have no idea what you want.
You think you know what you want, but then you
don't because you try it and you're like, I don't
want this, So experiment in low you know you don't
want to experiment and buy the boat and think, Okay,
this is my experiment because the boat's expensive, but rent
(45:37):
the boat. See if you want to live on the ocean,
and you want because it's it's way, you're going to
sleep terribly. But don't put off your perfect life to FI.
If you are one of the fire people like me
who thought everything would be perfect once you hit FI.
But you know, don't spend like everyone else, because everyone
else is crazy.
Speaker 3 (45:56):
I think that's why, Like I think that's so true.
Pain now or pain later, whether that's when it comes
to saving your money or in your case, spending it,
which I think it is more rare. But what I
hear you saying too is to pay attention to shelf
life right. Pay attention to the limited amount of time
and the limited exposure that you might have to certain experiences.
Don't short change those. And I really like too what
(46:18):
you ended there. When it comes to experimenting, figuring out
what it is that you might actually enjoy, like what
is your craft beer equivalent, it takes some time, It
takes some trial and error to figure out what that
thing is.
Speaker 4 (46:27):
But pick a lot of craft beer for us to
get there. That's true, Randa.
Speaker 3 (46:32):
We really appreciate you chatting with us today on the podcast.
Will make sure to link to the Mad Scientists and
typically we say farewell at this point, but you are
sitting here with us and we are all sharing the
same craft beer. And so during this episode, we enjoyed
a beer by a Verdant.
Speaker 4 (46:49):
This is Putty.
Speaker 3 (46:51):
This is a triple IPA Brandon, I'm gonna toss this
over to you. What were your initial thoughts? What do
you think about this beer?
Speaker 4 (46:57):
I love it.
Speaker 2 (46:58):
So Verdant is one of my favorite ukber and Puddy
with three t's is their triple IPA version of their
flagship once a year release Putty, which I love as well.
So yeah, Putty trip IPA is pretty impressive. And we've
already gone through some cloud water troubles to get to
this stage. So I can't believe I'm stringing any two
(47:20):
words together at this stage because yeah, as a new dad.
As a new dad, Joe and I can maybe handle
one half of a beer before.
Speaker 4 (47:28):
We fall asleep.
Speaker 2 (47:29):
So the fact that we've got through so many triple
IPAs to get to the stage is a pretty pretty
amazing feat. So thank you guys for coming all the
way to rural Scotland to see me, and you guys
are welcome back anytime. And now we're gonna move onto
the Scotch whiskey person of the evening, which is gonna.
Speaker 3 (47:44):
Well, honestly, if you're sharing six different triple IPAs amongst
six people, it actually is not too difficult of a
task the accomplished. But man, this was I want to
just thank you so much because this is an amazing beer.
Like it's got the tropic little citrus notes going on,
but at the same time it's got the sharpness from
the hops. It's so incredibly fresh on a delightful beer.
(48:07):
So thank you for sharing a special one from your
beer fridge.
Speaker 1 (48:11):
See the interesting thing about drinking a great ipa sometimes
that first sip can be a little biting on the
alcohol content and then you have another sip and you're like, dang,
wait a second, that just changed a whole lot and
this beer did just that, and so they had the
verdant triple IPA putty is a delight and one that
we don't have any exposure to back in the States.
(48:31):
You gotta fly all the way to to freaking Scotland
to enjoy. So thanks to Brandon for providing this delicious
beer and this wonderful conversation.
Speaker 4 (48:40):
But that's going to do it.
Speaker 1 (48:41):
We'll have links to everything Brandon related in our show
notes up on the website at howtomoney dot com, and
we'll see you next time here at the how to
Money Podcast. Until next time, Matt, best Friends Out, best
Friends Out the
Hosts And Creators
Joel Larsgaard
Matthew Altmix
Popular Podcasts
Crime Junkie
Does hearing about a true crime case always leave you scouring the internet for the truth behind the story? Dive into your next mystery with Crime Junkie. Every Monday, join your host Ashley Flowers as she unravels all the details of infamous and underreported true crime cases with her best friend Brit Prawat. From cold cases to missing persons and heroes in our community who seek justice, Crime Junkie is your destination for theories and stories you won’t hear anywhere else. Whether you're a seasoned true crime enthusiast or new to the genre, you'll find yourself on the edge of your seat awaiting a new episode every Monday. If you can never get enough true crime... Congratulations, you’ve found your people. Follow to join a community of Crime Junkies! Crime Junkie is presented by audiochuck Media Company.
24/7 News: The Latest
The latest news in 4 minutes updated every hour, every day.
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.