Mental Health is Financial Health w/ Aja Evans #737

The fundamentals of personal finance aren’t all that complicated- there’s a reason why we came up with the Money Gears: 7 straight forward steps to take with your money. We could probably boil it down even more: spend less than you make, and invest the rest! So while the core principles of growing wealth are fairly simple, then why aren’t more Americans handling their money better? One reason is because we, as individuals, are incredibly complex! And that complexity can lead to a disconnect between what we know we should be doing with our money, and what we actually end up doing. Sometimes we need someone to guide us, which is why we’re excited to talk with Aja Evans. Aja is a Licensed Mental Health Counselor with over 10 years of experience and she works to help people move toward financial wellness by understanding their relationship with money, their money mindset, and how their feelings impact what they do with their money. And today we discuss confronting our money beliefs, social media’s impact on our finances, financial trauma, setting boundaries, and more!

 

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
Welcome to Had of Money. I'm Joel and I am Matt,
and today we're talking about why mental health is financial
health with Asia Evans.

Speaker 2 (00:27):
And so the fundamentals of personal finance, they're not all
that complicated, right, Like, there is a reason why we
came up with the money gears, just seven easy steps
that you can take with your money. You could probably
boil it down even more, right like spend less than
you make invest the rest. And so while the core
principles of growing wealth are fairly simple, and why aren't

(00:49):
more Americans handling their money better? Well, one reason is
because we as individuals are incredibly complex. We are not simple,
and that complexity can lead to just to disconnect between
what it is that we know that we should be
doing with our money and then what it is that
we actually end up doing. And sometimes we need someone
to guide us, which is why we're very excited to

(01:11):
be talking with Asia Evans. Asia is a licensed mental
health counselor with over ten years of experience, and she
works to help people to move towards financial wellness by
understanding their relationship with money. She also folks to understand
their money mindset and how their feelings impact what it
is that they do with their money and Asia. She
even says on her site that chatting about money and

(01:33):
feelings is her superpower. That's the intersection that she sits at. So, Asia,
we are very excited to be talking with you today to.

Speaker 1 (01:39):
Thank you so much for having me the wonder woman
of money and feelings, Asia Evans, Hey, I like it. Yeah, right,
that's branding right there. You feel free to steal that?
The first question that was free, right. The first question
we ask everyone who comes on the show is how
they like to splurge, because it tells us a little
something about about them.

Speaker 3 (01:58):
Right.

Speaker 1 (01:58):
Matt and I were all about, say I mean and
investing for our future. But if you're not having fun
in the present simultaneously, then what are you doing right?
And so what what is that for you? What do
you like to splore John in the here and now
while you're also being intentional about saving for your future.

Speaker 3 (02:11):
I really love to go out to eat and spend
my money on delicious eats, whether they are fancy eats,
casual eats, quick eats. Me and my husband took a
flight to Copenhagen right before COVID actually, and we got
to go to Noma and got reservations for Noma.

Speaker 1 (02:31):
Yeah wow, fancy did you forage for your own dinner
or do they forage for it for you?

Speaker 3 (02:37):
I mean you walk through the gardens and you walk
through everything. So gosh, it was the high like the
culinary highlight of my life currently. I cried.

Speaker 2 (02:45):
It was yeah soon, man, that's I think that's one
of Kate's bucket list items that she is not going
to be able to for that.

Speaker 3 (02:55):
We really, like two of us on the computer we
are on vacation at the time, and put like calendar alerts. Yeah,
we fought for that reservation.

Speaker 2 (03:03):
I love it. Okay, Well, let's immediately get practical as like,
how is it that you actually gave your self permission
to spend that money? Because that's not a cheap dinner.
You say that you like, you know, casual eats as well,
this is not a casually. This is very expensive and
panadas on the street. Yeah, how do you do that?
How do you do that there without feeling guilty? Like
do you just have a maybe a dollar amount that
you're willing to say, all right, we're gonna earmark this money.

(03:25):
We're on vacation. Is there a rule of thumb, like,
how is it that maybe some guidance that you could
give listeners?

Speaker 3 (03:32):
Sure, So I think it really depends on what's important
to you and what's a priority in your life for
you and your yourself or your family. For us, getting
something like that reservation is already difficult, and we knew
that if we were able to get the reservation, like,
we're making peace with whatever it is that we're spending
because this is literally a once in a lifetime situation

(03:54):
and scenario. So knowing that that huge experience was not
going to be something that would easily come around again,
was allowed both of us to feel comfortable spending that
what I will say is an absorbitent amount of money
for dinner and a flight and staying there. So I
think that something like that, I just am totally okay

(04:17):
spending the money because that is something that I will
think about forever, and that we did it together and
we did it with friends, which was even better.

Speaker 2 (04:24):
It was just it was.

Speaker 3 (04:27):
It was the best. So when it comes to doing
a trip like that once in a lifetime, I can
justify we knew what was coming, we had saved for it,
we were ready to make that decision, and you know,
swipe the card if you will. But for other decisions
when it's kind of like, hey, this is a restaurant
that's closer to home. I live very close to New
York City, so that too, can get really pricey. Even

(04:50):
if you're not trying to you know, break the bank
or do too much with your spending, it can really
add up quickly. But we know that that's something that
brings us joy, and we have an allotted amount of
money that we feel comfortable with spending a month on
things of that nature. So if it's hey, let's get
that quick empanada on the street, or we're at the
farmer's market and these heirloom tomatoes look really great, or hey,

(05:13):
let's go hire a babysitter and let's have a date
night because we haven't gone out in a while. We
have certain amounts of money that we feel comfortable spending
with that, and I think we really learned, I will say,
kind of the hard way, from when we lived in
New York City proper we lived in Brooklyn, we were
really we're really spending it, spending a ton of money.

(05:36):
So when we moved out and had kids, you know,
your finances have to change, So it's an easy sacrifice
sometimes when you know what you lived like before and
what you're sacrificing for now.

Speaker 1 (05:47):
You know, I learned pretty quickly from a few of
my first awesome trips that I went on. I was
in my hyper frugal phase. I just refused to spend
on certain things. And I came home from the trip
and I was like, I didn't even have like one.
It was fun and I saw some cool stuff, but
I made it a goal to pay for one experience
every time I'm somewhere, and so like for me, I'm

(06:08):
the first trip I'm thinking about that where I kind
of implemented that was I went on a motorized hang
gliding tour in Maui, and that made all the difference.
I look back to that and I'm like, that is
what I remember now about my Maui experience. And if
I had just and if it had just been the
beaches in the community and all that other stuff, it
would have been one thing. But it was like now,
that experience sticks out in my head. So I think
budgeting for that and implementing that is helpful and it

(06:29):
helps facilitate those memories which are so important too, about
like the future value of that trip. I'm curious, how
do you help folks think through spending for saving for
investing their money, Like saving is really just deferred spending,
Like we're hoping that at some point or we're assuming
that at some point in the future, we're gonna need
to spend that money. So how do we mentally negotiate

(06:49):
the trade off of spending now versus having more money
to spend in the future. Hyper frugal people will be like, ah,
at this sort of return rate, I'm gonna have this
much more money in the future, And that is true,
but you also have to think about being able to
buy the things that matter now too, right.

Speaker 3 (07:03):
Yeah, definitely. So one of what I would call like
a founding principle or value that I have with my
work is that I want people to live their best lives.
I want people to feel like they can show up
as their most authentic self. And if your most authentic
self wants to have an experience, then we need to
figure out how we prioritize that. So I tend to

(07:26):
lead with the emotional first, and lead with what's important
to you? What are your values as a person and
then how do we translate that into how you use
and behave with your money so that you are able
to prioritize. Hey, having a budget or a spending plan
is really important because we have these financial goals that

(07:47):
mirror what our personal values are, what our values as
a family are, so then we can enact whatever we
want to do when it's time.

Speaker 2 (07:55):
Makes sense. Okay, So then how do you I've heard
you talk about this, how oftentimes we spend our money
though to signal to others, we spend our money in
ways that are not internal. They're not internally satisfying. We
think that they are externally satisfying to others. But as
you are taking clients and folks kind of through that process,

(08:17):
are there some steps that you take with them to
help them to understand what it is that kind of
lights them up? How can folks avoid that trap of
spending in a way that doesn't necessarily align with their values.

Speaker 3 (08:30):
Yeah, so I think it's twofold. So I always say
that we need to really do the hard work of
being honest with ourselves and how we feel about ourselves
and looking at our self esteem. While we're in the
process of creating financial priorities. So if you find that
you are purchasing a bunch of wealth signifiers to show
everybody that you're making it, who was that for and

(08:51):
how come? And let's dive into what you really believe
about yourself that you need that. And I say this
also coming from a place of having done that too,
Like I remember when we have right, all of us,
and it shows up very differently through your age. And
I think as young as middle school to what jeans

(09:12):
are you wearing, who are you hanging out with? What? Like?
Do you have the latest and greatest whatever? It is?
Feels really cool when you're young, But as you continue
aging and your life starts to look different, that's kind
of you have the insight and the wherewithal to start
asking yourself the harder questions of why you need this
stuff and who who are you trying to attract that

(09:35):
you feel like you can't attract without it and those.

Speaker 1 (09:38):
Yeah, the expense of those well signifiers goes up substantially
too as you get older, because in middle school it's
sneakers in a T shirt, and as an adultig deal,
it's a car in a house, right, Yeah, exactly, it's
so expensive to kind of really keep that up exactly.

Speaker 3 (09:52):
And I think the second step after you are kind
of taking the time to look at like, hey, who
is this for, then you can ask yourself, Okay, does
this line with my values? And I want to like
put the disclaimer in that I am not telling people
don't have the fancy dinner, don't get the fancy car,
do that, but make sure one that you can afford it,
and two that it's really for you and not so

(10:13):
that other people are looking at you and deciding that
you are this type of person. And you can fill
in the blank there, Yeah.

Speaker 1 (10:18):
Is it really for you?

Speaker 2 (10:20):
I like that.

Speaker 1 (10:21):
I've heard you talk about deserving versus being able to
afford it. Right, some folks feel like, Okay, I'm an adults,
I deserve adult treats, Like this is what adults do,
I think, and so this is the path I need
to trod. What do you tell folks who feel like
frugality is too much of a downer or hey, no,
I'm like thirty five and so I should be able

(10:41):
to spend on this stuff, but maybe they don't necessarily
have the budget to be able to do so.

Speaker 3 (10:45):
Yeah, I mean, I have a lot of thoughts on that,
and they're evolving as we're even talking about it. So
one thing that I'm thinking about is when we have
this idea of hey, I'm thirty five, I'm this age,
I'm an adult, I should be able to afford that,
where's that coming from? Because if that's coming from generations
before you, we're living in a different time. It looks

(11:05):
very different. So if you were expecting to have the
same things that somebody would have had at your current
age before you, like, we're we're not on the same
playing field. The foundations look very different.

Speaker 2 (11:19):
It's a different world.

Speaker 3 (11:20):
It's a different world, totally different world.

Speaker 1 (11:22):
Like those houses are expensive now, yes.

Speaker 3 (11:24):
Very expensive. And globalization and the internet has made things
that we could not get so readily available at our
fingertips by a click of the button. Something can come
to me in a week. So it just looks.

Speaker 2 (11:38):
A week, right, Asia, I get stuff like this afternoon.

Speaker 3 (11:43):
I try to give the leeway. But you're right, and
not only it's true, yeah, not only just that, but
I really really try to hammer home to people that
what you deserve has nothing to do with what you
can afford. Those are two very different things, and we
connect them so quickly and easily when they have no

(12:05):
business being connected. As a human being, we all deserve everything,
right like, just as humans. I believe that, yes, we
deserve to be where we want to be, feel safe,
where we can be safe anywhere we walk around like,
I just believe that that is a human right. So, yes,
you deserve all the things, but it doesn't mean you
can afford them.

Speaker 2 (12:24):
Does Yeah, does not mean you've got the money in
the bank. And it sounds like so it sounds like
you're kind of speaking from personal experience a little bit.
How I guess when you and your husband, when y'a
are living in the city, maybe y'all are spending more
than you should have been, or I don't know, maybe
more than you realize. Can you can you share your
your personal story a little bit and you talk about
the financial awakening that you went through, can you basically, yeah,

(12:45):
talk us through that.

Speaker 3 (12:46):
Yeah. So when I had first moved so I'm originally
from upstate New York, but when I first moved down
to New York City, I was spending all of my money.
I was literally just making it rain. I had a
car payment, student loan payments, I had rent payment for
a pretty nice apartment, and I was like, oh, I

(13:07):
could send out my laundry. Oh, I can also go
to this happy hour and this brunch and go shopping
in the same lit all the thing. I could not
afford to do that, but it felt like, again, I
should be able to. I'm making this money, it should
be able to work that way. And as I got
into the personal finance space and just started educating myself,

(13:28):
A was like, Okay, this doesn't make sense. This is
actually not working. I'm not going to be able to
reach the financial goals that I want to. And then
me and my now husband moved in and we were
still making it rain. We were still going out to
eat and ordering takeout, and it looked a little different
our spending. But now when I look back, we are

(13:52):
At the time, like our rent was a little less
a little more than half our mortgage payment, we didn't
have two kids in daycare, we didn't have need a
like larger suv, we didn't have a dog. Like all
of these things gave us space in our budget to
have a great time, and we lived it and it
was amazing. But I cannot afford to do the things

(14:16):
that I was doing then Now because I have different priorities.
I'm like, oh, do I want to go out to
this fancy meal four times this month that would potentially
equal the same amount of money that is one child's day.

Speaker 1 (14:29):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (14:30):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (14:30):
Once kids enter the realm, the equation, you're like, this
changes everything. And so I'm like Matt and I always
talk about how we're glad that we were more frugal
maybe than sometimes we even needed to be on those
in those early years, because there's so many unexpected expenses
that pop up when you have kids. And I will say,
even in the beginning, I was like, oh, I can't
wait to get out of diapers. That's going to save

(14:51):
me a lot of money. And then the kids' activities
start up, and the soccer and the gymnastics and all
that stuff, and you're like, wait a second, how did
I ever think that this? Like it just the expenses
continue to grow even as your kids get older. When
you think, oh, wait, yeah, I get out of diapers
are going to be great, well not so much. I
guess my question to you too is like, when you realized, okay,
we moved in together, we're still making it rain, We're

(15:13):
still spending in the same way what did you end
up cutting back on and how did you realize that
those were the right moves.

Speaker 3 (15:19):
So we ended up cutting back on definitely on eating
out and drinking out, I think is the best way
to put it. So it's really easy, especially when you
live in New York to say, hey, let's meet up
after work, or your friends don't live in the same
borough that you live in and it takes a long
time to travel, so it's easy to go someplace that's
halfway and meet and get drinks. Because it's just like

(15:40):
it's it's a very going out city, Like you don't
really hang out at home all the time. That's a
rare kit. You go out, exactly, go out, you let's
hang out together. So when I realized, I think it
was around the time that we were moving and move
out of the city and going to the suburbs. When

(16:02):
I was like, okay, well our mortgage is much higher
than our rent. Was where do we need to cut?
And I had, thankfully the personal finance education and be like,
let's look at our budget. How much money are we
cutting and what are we cutting and how much do
we need to And a lot of it came from
eating out and drinking. It came from we had more
expensive gym memberships that in the city that we didn't

(16:25):
need in suburbia, so that shifted. At that time, I
had paid off my car ready, so I was like,
we will be driving this car forever, and we did
until we had a second child and had to upgrade,
and that literally happened two and a half years ago.
So we really were more mindful of when we were spending.
We would still go out and we had a great time,

(16:47):
but it was just so much less and you don't
really like, I know, I was probably spending twelve hundred
dollars a month by myself alone, like not even what
my now husband was spent. So that's a lot of money.

Speaker 1 (17:02):
It's tough when you live in a really cool city
like that too, because you want to partake so much experience.

Speaker 2 (17:06):
Part of yeah, that is part.

Speaker 1 (17:07):
Of the experience, but also there's the experience of being
broken in debt, which is which is something you want
to avoid too.

Speaker 2 (17:14):
And it's just the different life stage that you're in
right like that necessitated the change that you were willing
to make, and like you said before, it's so important
and helpful I think to have something there in front
of you that you are pursuing, that you're moving towards,
rather than just saying, oh, well, it's not just no
no no, it's so that you can say yes, yes,
yes to some of these other things. But so so

(17:35):
far we've find this is a fun conversation. We're talking
about spending, but we're going to kind of dive into
some of this some of the heavier mental health. As
mental health, we're going to talk about emotions and specifically
the impact that it has on us and how it
is that we spend and saver money.

Speaker 1 (17:49):
We'll get to all of that right after this. All right,
the conversation continues. We're talking about mental health, how that
is essentially financial health in so many ways. Talking with
Asia Evans perfect person to talk to about this topic.
And Asia, you mentioned that when you kind of start

(18:13):
talking about the personal values that someone has, you're not
necessarily going directly to like personal finance one onh one
in your discussions when someone comes into your office or
when someone's meeting with you to talk about kind of
their financial feelings and stuff like that. But like, how
do you know whether where you should go in that conversation?
And and how much are you doing on like the

(18:35):
unpacking the childhood front or are you more like unpacking
their spending and credit card bills breaking down their credit
card statement or is it both and both and okay?

Speaker 3 (18:45):
So even like in probably the first conversation I have
with potential clients at that point, like the whole process,
if you will, I ask them what's going on now,
Like why did now feel like a good time that
you wanted to talk to a financial therapy and really
dive in about what's going on with your emotions and
your money. So that will be an indicator of what

(19:06):
they want to work on, and then you know, they
say yes, we start working together, We get them on
the schedule, and then it's okay, this is where you're at. Now.
Is there anything else that feels really pressing right now
about like what's going on with your money? Like are
you in crisis right now? Do we need to attune
to something that's coming up quickly? Sometimes the answer is yes,

(19:27):
and we'll stick to that subject matter. Sometimes the answer
is no. So when the answer is no, that gives
us a little bit more space and room to then
have the conversations about childhood and upbringing and I know, listen,
people don't want to talk about their affinitely, the mommy issues,
the daddy issues, the friend issues, the person issues. You know,

(19:49):
we all have baggage. And I totally get it, because
it's hard to decide that you're going to go unpack
that closet. And as we all know, when we clean
a closet, we make the room very messy trying to
clean out the closet, and sometimes it takes time to
put that stuff back in neatly. But that's why I'm
here to walk my clients through the process and to
understand where the root of some of these patterns came

(20:12):
from exactly. And that's what's necessary for long term change.
And I tell my clients that I'm like, listen, if
you want a short term change where we go through
this process and then you may have to come back
to me in a little bit, that's okay, but that's
really not how I like to work. I would rather
go through the nitty gritty, the hardship right now. Do
the hard first, so that later on, when you're making

(20:34):
these behavioral and financial changes, they stick and you don't
feel bad, and yeah, there's reduced chame.

Speaker 2 (20:40):
I totally agree I was recently talking to a friend
who's a physical therapist, and she's just kind of talking
about some of the different work that she does, and
I was like, hey, by the way, what do you
think about chiropractors. You know, you go in, you get
that adjustment, and you're like, ah, yeah, I feel great.
And she basically said exactly what you just said. But
in terms of the body and physical health, right, you
can make some of these little tweaks to quick picks,

(21:02):
and you might feel good for a little bit, but
it doesn't address the underlying issues. And I love that
that is the goal, certainly your goal, but just I
think mental health professionals, generally speaking, one of the things
you're able to identify as you kind of dig through
that baggage is just some of the beliefs that we
have around money, the scripts pre like sometimes folks call
them money scripts, but like, we have these beliefs, and

(21:24):
it's hard to know whether they're good, whether they're bad,
whether they're like right or wrong. And it's almost as if,
like as like the process of adulthood is almost just
trying to like experiment and try some of these out
and to figure out whether or not they're accurate or
not right. And so how do you think that we
can go about doing that when it comes to some
of the different money beliefs that we have.

Speaker 3 (21:43):
Yeah, so I would tell people to start looking at
what your money beliefs are, and people very quickly be like, well,
what are you even talking about? Like what do you mean?
So money beliefs are money narratives. The way I think
about them is that they are either something that you learn,
picked up on, understood pretty much, cemented to your memory,

(22:04):
and decided this is how, this is what it is right,
this is the truth, This is the infinite truth of
money in this way?

Speaker 1 (22:13):
And now can you give an example? Is it like
I will never have enough money? Is that one?

Speaker 3 (22:17):
Perfect? Yep, that's a perfect example that could have come. So,
say you were younger and you grew up in a
household that didn't have enough money, and you felt like
there was no possible way you were going to get
out of that because you couldn't see it because you
were young. And mind you, the research says that children
start solidifying their money beliefs by between the ages of

(22:37):
seven and nine. So that's that's pretty young. You know,
you're not making money at that time, and if you
started believing I'll never have enough money, it may not
show up the same way as it was when you
were younger. But as an adult, you may be a
workaholic because you're making three hundred thousand, but you feel
like it will never be enough because that script, that

(22:58):
narrative is still embedded in your mind of what it
looks like to attempt to survive, attempt to make it work.
So then you work yourself into the ground thinking that
you'll never have enough money.

Speaker 1 (23:11):
In your significant others like why do you work all
the time?

Speaker 3 (23:14):
You know?

Speaker 1 (23:14):
And then it crosses these interpersonal lines where that relationship
suffers because you haven't identified this underlying money belief.

Speaker 3 (23:22):
Exactly, and you're working all the time. You may be
neglecting your body, You may be neglecting your own mental health.
And people therapists are not trained to think about money
in that way. We're not trained to start diving into
the financial aspect of people's lives and how that may
be making their symptomology worse.

Speaker 1 (23:45):
So my wife is actually in graduate school to become
a mental health welcome clinician. Yeah, So I have you
guys left to chat at some point, you love that,
But she that's something she talks about because of what
I do, because of what we talk about in our household.
She's like, it's so amazing that money is so often
left out of these mental health conversations when it is

(24:06):
such an important piece of the puzzle that really should
be put on the table more often.

Speaker 3 (24:11):
One hundred percent. Yeah, I'm happy to talk to her about.

Speaker 2 (24:13):
It'd be cool. I mean, so, how do you take
those emotions that we all have obviously, Like, I mean,
the answer isn't to be more robotic necessarily and to
eliminate any sort of happiness, but also sadness for our life.
How should we take those emotions and how should they
interact with our money and with our finances in a

(24:34):
healthy way.

Speaker 3 (24:35):
Yeah, so I think realizing kind of what your money
narrative was that you had in the past, and also
giving yourself grace, like allowing yourself to remember, Hey, this
developed out of a place that I am no longer in,
and I know that I was just trying to make
it and I was doing the best that I can.
Thank you, younger me because that was helpful. And now

(24:56):
the new older me that knows differently needs to, you know,
shift to make sure that that's how we're living now.
So have grace, don't be mean to yourself.

Speaker 2 (25:06):
That does not help.

Speaker 3 (25:07):
Shame does not motivate people. And then it's time to like, okay, now,
how can we be better and what are we going
to be doing differently? And let let's be honest about
the emotions that happened, because I think what happens, especially
my work, is that people find the narrative or we
pinpoint the moment or the root cause, and they see
the pattern. They're like, Okay, great, I'm healed, and I

(25:31):
laugh because it's just not true. Like that is actually
when you start doing the hard work. That's when it's like,
oh I.

Speaker 2 (25:39):
Am just step one.

Speaker 1 (25:40):
Yea epiphany is necessary, but it's not going to fix
it exactly.

Speaker 3 (25:43):
Oh I just realized that I'm doing this and now
I have to do a different behavior That is the
hard work.

Speaker 1 (25:49):
Yeah yeah, okay. So so emotions are certainly a part
of that, and we don't want to cut ourselves off
from all those feelings because feelings are necessary. They're a
big part of what makes as human. But what about
where's the intersection, what about concrete action steps? Like creating
a plan, right, how does that? Maybe does that help
us overcome some of those negative feelings sometimes and you

(26:10):
just don't want to paper over over them. But so
as you need a to do list like things do
actually accomplish. At the same time as you're kind of
you've got the epiphany, maybe you kind of see, oh wait,
that's my limiting money belief. That's how this is this
and this and this is how it's impacting me. Then
how do we start to move forward?

Speaker 3 (26:25):
Yeah, so definitely having that plan right, deciding what your
financial priorities are and how you're going to accomplish them
however that is, whatever works for you. And then also
having a plan for when you get upset when something
is hitting that button. When something is we use the
word trigger a lot, So when something's triggering that emotional
state for you, what are you going to do? Then

(26:46):
you need a plan for that as well, not just
your financial plan, because that's when it gets hard to
make sure that you make a different choice than you
don't harm yourself anyway, like financially, so that you need
a plan or coping skill or something that's going to
help help you regulate feeling emotionally heightened.

Speaker 1 (27:03):
Yeah, no, that makes so much sense because I has
to stay away from Appleby's during half price appetizers because
he'll go overboard. I get triggered as I love what
you're saying, because unique when you are emotionally in an
emotionally heightened state, that's when you're going to be most
likely to take the wrong action anyway. So yeah, having
a plan so that you are just kind of doing

(27:24):
the right things because we don't always feel feel like
doing the right thing. It makes me think about, like
you mentioned, going out on like date nights with your husband.
It makes me think how grateful I am so my
wife and I, no matter what it's on the calendar,
every two weeks we go out on a date night,
and sometimes I don't necessarily want to go right, and
like it just feels like we're kind of checking a

(27:44):
box because it is this repeating event. But what I
find is that by sitting there by looking at or
having a conversation, connecting to do laundry, and connecting as
husband and wife, by the end of that I am
so a thankful that we went on a date night,
and it makes me want to go on another date night.
Again very soon, and so I guess, yeah, talk to

(28:07):
me about that. Do you think that there should be
things that we do? I'm trying to relate this back
to money, right, like you, what are some of the
different things you think we should be doing, I guess
with our money, even when we don't feel like they're
things that we want to do, because I think a
lot of times folks feel that they need to have
a full understanding of exactly what it is that they
should be doing with their money or they should or

(28:28):
that they need to feel good about their money, as
opposed to knowing that well, I need a I know,
I need to just do this because this is going
to get me towards closer towards building wealth. This is
going to get me towards closer towards financial independence. Can
you talk about that for a second. Does that make sense? Yeah?

Speaker 3 (28:45):
So I'm you're going to keep me on track. I'm
going to hold you to it, but I'm going to
get there in a roundabout way, do it?

Speaker 2 (28:50):
I love it?

Speaker 1 (28:51):
So.

Speaker 3 (28:52):
First, for your example, you going out on your date
with your wife is self care to the point of like,
why we are here to talking about this? You stepping
outside of your life, stepping away from the laundry, the
responsibilities as parents, and just being back to like, oh
hey this remember this all started because we loved each other,
Like this is all This all started because we fell

(29:14):
in love. And being able to be there together allows
you to then step back into your responsibilities and feel
more equipped to handle them, more rested, better about yourself,
better about your foundation and your partnership, whatever it might be. Right,
yours is date night, but it could be something else
for somebody.

Speaker 2 (29:32):
Sure.

Speaker 3 (29:33):
Yeah, being more prepared to handle the responsibilities makes it
easier for you to put that back into your budget,
to realize, hey, this is really important for us to
have this time. We do need to spend money on
a date night or carve out the time, no matter
what it looks like, because it pours back into us
and this is a value that we have and what

(29:55):
you're doing is just expressing that with your money as well.
So it could be the g for some people. Okay,
you go to the gym in the morning. You're paying
for this gym membership. Could you cut it? Sure? But
are you going to go do the other things? And
does that mean you're going to let some of your
self care behaviors go by the wayside because you aren't
having that routine with the gym.

Speaker 1 (30:15):
For sure. Talk to me about negative amplifiers of emotional
and mental health, and I'm specifically thinking of things like
loneliness or social media. That the more disconnected we feel
from our loved ones and the more we're on social
media typically that has for most people from everything that
I've seen and read, it has a negative impact on

(30:37):
how they're feeling about their life. And that's the highlight
reel on Instagram, right, I mean, there's a bunch of
things we cant highlight, are just missing out on community involvement.
So I know we're mostly talking about money here, but
I feel like the more disconnect we feel and the
more anxious we feel, the more likely we are to
do bad things with our money. So what do you

(30:57):
think about those inputs the way that they impact how
we think and feel and actually the things that we
do with the money that we have.

Speaker 3 (31:05):
So I completely agree with you, and I think a
lot of it has to do with comparison. So if
you are scrolling and you're looking at social media, and
you're looking at somebody's highlight reel while you're on the
couch with your hand in your ice cream tub. Nothing
is going to look good right Like you are going
to sit there and feel so bad about what your
life looks like compared to who's Whoever's pictures you're seeing

(31:27):
that look perfectly curated and look really great.

Speaker 2 (31:32):
Right.

Speaker 3 (31:34):
Exactly? That feels awful where And I'm like, listen, this
took a lot of work to get. You may not
have seen it, but it took a lot of time
and preparation, and we lose track of that so quickly
because it's right there in front of us all the time.
So if you're following a ton of people, you can
just see it. I tell my clients all the time.

(31:56):
I'm like, listen, is somebody was following you with a
camera and had some good lighting and put some well
timed music to your favorite day. Doesn't that sound like
a highlight reel to you?

Speaker 1 (32:06):
Yeah?

Speaker 3 (32:07):
Basically, because that is exactly what it is. And I
think we forget that people who are creating content, this
is a job for them. There is a skill that
comes to making that work. And I think when the
social media platforms started, it wasn't like that, right, It
was just kind of like I mean, I was in
college when Facebook started and we were taking pictures on

(32:30):
a digital camera that may have fallen in a cup
of beer. Like it was just it was messy and
it wasn't perfectly curated. But the way it has worked
out is that now it looks different and we compare
ourselves and then that leads to, you know, low self esteem,
which can lead to depression or feeling anxious or feeling
like you're not living up to what people your age

(32:50):
or your peers are doing, and that can lead to anxiety.
So all of these symptoms, if you will, or feelings
that can come up, can go in a negative place
if you let them spiral to that place. And the
comparison really is a gasoline on the fire to that.
And what happens when you feel that way is that

(33:11):
you are trying to cope, You're trying your hard is
to feel better, and a lot of that is instant gratification,
and that means you're spending money. So if that means, hey,
I'm ordering uber eats because I'm depressed and I can't
I can't even think about making dinner right now, then
it's so quick to just spend that twenty five thirty
bucks to have a meal.

Speaker 2 (33:27):
So ny it's right on the phone, it's what's in
the app, the or streamline everything.

Speaker 3 (33:32):
Right, or you're like, hey, look at that awesome home
that they have, Like look at those throw pillows. Oh
look they're linked and so is my credit card. Click
click click, I bought those pillows. I'm gonna feel as
good too. So it is really really easy to spend
our money now, and what we're trying to do is
feel better. So that's when I talk about going back

(33:53):
to what do you do when you're triggered? If you're
not realizing that you're triggered, you're just gonna spend your money.
Sometimes for some people, people do something things.

Speaker 2 (34:00):
You know, But sure, yeah, yeah, I'm sure there's some
folks who do the exact opposite, right, and from a
financial standpoint, they probably aren't struggling quite as much, at
least in that way, but they assuming certainly they've got
other issues going on where still there are issues for
them to work through. But yeah, yeah, social media it's
it's kind of the worst, right because, Like, on one hand,
I do like it because the ability for folks to

(34:22):
talk about money.

Speaker 1 (34:23):
And out of money Facebook group is one of the best.

Speaker 2 (34:26):
It's just away for us to reduce the taboo that
surrounds personal finance and money. But on the other hand,
like you said, the comparison game, I think ultimately is
a is a net loss. But can we talk about
trauma for for a quick second here, if that's possible,
let's talk. Let's quickly talk about trauma. I feel like
it's a word that you hear being tossed around a lot,

(34:48):
Like I feel like it kind of gets maybe used
too much. I don't know, I'm sure if you feel
that way. But what is financial trauma and specifically, like,
what is it that causes financial trauma?

Speaker 3 (34:58):
Yeah, so financial trauma to me is a negative feeling
that you have because of a hardship that you lived through.
So a financial trauma, I mean, the definition kind of fluctuates.
In my own definition fluctuates, so I'll give that disclaimer
as well. But it's pretty much if you live through
somebody one of your parents, lost a job, or you

(35:20):
had to move abruptly because you were being evicted, or
you are twenty something and are up to debt, like
in debt up to your eyeballs and you don't know
what to do with it, and you're anxious and you
can't sleep anymore. It's feeling like you can't compare to
anybody else or your peers because you don't have enough
money to quote unquote keep up. All of those things,

(35:40):
no matter how big or small, can be traumatic and
can take root inside of you that start to kind
of influence how you think about yourself in the world.
Say you came from a very wealthy family and at
a certain age you moved out and you got a job,
but you are not able to afford the same lifestyle
that you had with your wealthy family. You take on
credit cards and you're getting in debt. You could easily

(36:03):
start writing this script that says I'll never get out
of debt, like I won't be able to get out
of this debt unless I ask my parents. But I
don't want to ask my parents, and you know, then
we're down the cycle. So it's very easy for people
to have these financially traumatic situations happen, and they are
very common. And I want to just say, I think
we have this idea that people who are wealthy or

(36:27):
rich or have a lot of money don't have any
financial traumas, and that's not the case. A lot of
times we talk about it from the other side, where
people grew up in a situation where there wasn't enough
means to kind of cover. But financial trauma really doesn't
care how much money you have. It's just that it
was traumatic. It's about the experience of the person, and

(36:49):
just because it was traumatic to you doesn't mean it
was traumatic for somebody else who went through the same
exact experience as you.

Speaker 1 (36:55):
So is the goal to overcome to defeat the financial
trauma or is it more about like harnessing it to
help you move forward? To me, Matt and I we've
talked in the past about using financial stressors in your
life to your advantage, to kind of point you towards
the things that need to be worked on. It's easier
to let that like overwhelm you, right, But then there
are other ways where you can do a jiu jitsu
move and you can kind of take advantage of that

(37:17):
stress and turn it into action. So I don't know
what are your thoughts on that and how we move
forward and what are we trying to accomplish as we
do that.

Speaker 3 (37:26):
Yeah, I think I mean to me, I would love
for everybody to be able to heal and feel better,
But a lot of it is just acknowledging it that
this had an impact on you. And a lot of
times people have a hard time acknowledging that because it
also may involve their family. It might feel disrespectful to say, oh,
that was really hard for me when you know your
parents were trying their hardest and doing their best. Yeah,

(37:49):
and that's that to me, are two different things. You
can love your parents, they could have been doing their best,
and it could still be hard for you, and things
can be true at the same time. So it's about
acknowledging that you through this and that it was hard,
and sometimes it informs what you do with your money,
and you don't want it to anymore. So let's give
ourselves grace and figure out what our financial priorities are

(38:10):
and then figure out what do we need to do
to feel better when those old memories are coming up,
when we're triggered, when we're having a hard time, and
be nice to yourself, like shame is the worst. Financial
shame is awful, and it makes people feel terrible about
themselves and I'm just not for it. So I'm just
like we got to get rid of it.

Speaker 1 (38:31):
Yeah, we're anti shame too, because it's it breeds the
opposite of action.

Speaker 2 (38:35):
It doesn't lead to anywhere that it doesn't lead for
nowhere productive.

Speaker 1 (38:40):
Yeah, it's not productive. It's that's what you're wallowing. You're
sitting there, you're beating yourself up and you're not really
actually taking any steps to move forward to get beyond it.
So we've got a couple more questions to get to
with you, h including we got to talk about boundaries,
and that especially is like your money situation changes, maybe
those how you deal with money, stuff with it interpersonally,

(39:00):
with your significant other, maybe with your parents who raised you.
We'll talk about that more right after this.

Speaker 2 (39:15):
Right, we are back still talking here with Asia Evans
and Asia. So far the work that you've guided to
our listeners through is more personal and internal. Right, So
let's step outside of that a little Bit's talk about
other people and.

Speaker 1 (39:29):
Specifically we make them different.

Speaker 2 (39:32):
How do we change the lives of the people around us.
I don't want to change. I want them to change.

Speaker 1 (39:36):
Yeah, and then my life will be better by proxy.

Speaker 2 (39:38):
No, So you literally were before we hit record, you
were talking about how you literally, I guess twenty minutes
before we started talking. You trend In the first draft
of your book, it's called but I Only Got Water,
and it's the title of the book. Obviously it's a
nod to the predicament of splitting a dinner and trying
to figure out how to pay the check. Yeah, and

(39:59):
with your friend, can you tell us about the book,
you know, do you mostly focus on some of those
modern day money anxieties that we all face.

Speaker 3 (40:06):
Yeah, So the book is pretty much about how our
relationship to money is formed, and then it goes into
some of the limiting beliefs that we may have. So
whether it is thinking about how you're going to split
the check at the group dinner or when you're squalking
down target and you want to buy all of the things,
which I happen to feel quite frequent. So, just how

(40:31):
some of the limiting money beliefs show up for you
and how they kind of interact with your money in
a way that you either do or do not want anymore.

Speaker 1 (40:39):
You've talked about this, I think in your relationship with
your own mom, about how once you've had a degree
of financial success, it can change the interactions between you
and a parent, you and a spouse how but like
different cultures, different families have varying opinions as to what's
expected of you once you've had that degree of financial success, right,
and you say that setting proper boundaries is one of

(40:59):
the most important things when it comes to relational health boundaries.
That's one of those things that a word I did
not understand very much in my early twenties, but late
thirties I understand it a whole lot more. How would
you go about recommending people think about setting boundaries when
it comes to money and relationships?

Speaker 3 (41:14):
So I would say the first step is deciding where
they need to be. I think a lot of times
people want to set boundaries, but they don't know where
they should be, Like when is it okay? So the
first step is really deciding where do you start to
get uncomfortable. Where do you start to feel like, oh gosh,
I don't want to have this conversation, or oh gosh,
they might ask me for money, or I want to

(41:35):
give them money, but they're really uncomfortable about it. That
is a signifier to tell you, like, hey, something's going
on with your boundaries, Like when you start getting uncomfortable
or feeling uneasy after that, thinking about like, Okay, how
can I have this conversation to set the boundary in
a way that I feel comfortable and I feel safe,

(41:57):
and I am also not trying to hurt their feelings.
And I think that's where we all get, you know,
a little caught up because we don't want to hurt
the other person's feelings, but we are hurting ourselves and
not protecting our own boundaries. So we have to be
brave and be kind to ourselves and try as hard
as possible to just like let them know what is

(42:17):
comfortable for you and what isn't, what you're willing to
do and what you aren't willing to do. So similar
to what you were saying. When I started making a
certain amount of money, my mom was like, okay, here
take this phone bill, like she just gave me her
phone bill, just like here too. Culturally, I'm a black woman,
that was totally appropriate. Culturally, I was not shocked by it.
I almost like expect the ordinary for you have the

(42:40):
ordinary for me at all. But for some of my
white counterparts that I have shared this story with, they're like,
I'm sorry, what my parts are still paying my phone Bill.
I was like, yeah, I'm oppositely.

Speaker 2 (42:49):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (42:50):
Were you like, Mom, we're putting you on mint Mobile
right now? Yeah?

Speaker 3 (42:53):
No, I'm like, okay, here we go with the Rizon Bill.

Speaker 2 (42:56):
Well, how do you I guess, yeah, as you start
to have some of these conversation and how do you
go about doing that? Well, obviously it's not like a
one war text that you shoot over to somebody and
you're like, you want to be able to provide some
sort of some sort of explanation. I guess, and you
probably want to do it in person. But I guess
how much information is too much information?

Speaker 3 (43:16):
You're talking to a therapist? Yes, I'm always about that communication.

Speaker 2 (43:19):
I'm sure a vari is per individual, and it depends
on this circumstanced pretty much.

Speaker 3 (43:23):
How much are you willing to share without again feeling
like your boundaries are uncomfortable. If you're going to tell
somebody how much you're making, but you know that they're
going to tell the whole family that you don't feel
comfortable letting them know that information. You don't want the
whole family to know, then I wouldn't share it. So
you decide what feels safe for you, what feels comfortable
for your transparency and how to have that conversation with

(43:46):
that person. And when I say the conversation, I mean
you leading with I feel I want I statements always,
I statements for what you're going through and let them
know what will work for you and what will not
work for you. So I was comfortable taking my mom's
phone bill on so I let her know. It's like okay, Mom,

(44:06):
like that's fine, blah blah blah, move on from there.
But if it was like, hey, Asia, can you pay
my rent?

Speaker 1 (44:11):
For example, I feel like that's a terrible idea.

Speaker 3 (44:17):
But you have to have a conversation. Mom. I love
you so much, but I'm not financially able to carry
your rent and my own at the same time. And
I want to be able to help you wherever I can.
So how do we find a way that we both
can feel comfortable because I would feel uncomfortable way.

Speaker 2 (44:34):
Well, the way you do it, it makes it sound
so easy. But what I'm gathering here, though, is to
not say not to blame it on the other person,
which is why you always do that exactly. Yeah, going
back to changing other people around us.

Speaker 3 (44:49):
And that's hard when you have started doing some of
this work, and not just the financial work, but the
work on yourself. When you start having insight on yourself,
it's really hard to recognize other people around you who
may not have that level of insight for themselves, and
that's difficult.

Speaker 1 (45:02):
All right, Well, Asia, this has been just such a
great conversation, so much insight, so much value I think
for people, because yeah, when it comes down to it,
how we feel about our money, how we feel about
our lives, impacts every aspect of our personal finances and
it's really important. Or I guess one last thing I
want to ask you is like, when does somebody know, Hey,
they've just heard this, maybe this is either a great

(45:23):
primer they need to go see somebody, they need to
go talk to a mental health professional. Or when is
this done just fine within community as a solo mission,
or when do they actually need to seek paid professional help.

Speaker 3 (45:35):
Yeah, So I would say if you find yourself really
really anxious, So if you are, you can't sleep, you
have your stomach hurts, you're having trouble breathing, If you're
having anxiety attacks or panic attacks, especially about your money,
definitely seek out a financial therapist, specifically one that may
have clinical background so they can help work you through

(45:55):
some of those anxiety attacks or panic attacks. I would
also say, if you find yourself just doing the same
thing over and over again, if you feel like you are,
you know you've listened, you have the personal finance education,
but you keep making the same money mistakes, you keep
beating yourself up about it. It's the same pattern happening
over and over again. I would definitely get in touch

(46:16):
with the financial therapist.

Speaker 1 (46:17):
And where can folks find out more about you and
what you're up to.

Speaker 3 (46:19):
Ah So, I am on Instagram at Asia Ajae Therapy
or you can find me on my website which is
Asiaevanscounseling dot com.

Speaker 1 (46:28):
Awesome all that in the show notes, absolutely and thank
you again for joining us.

Speaker 2 (46:31):
Thanks nice dude. I think this is my favorite conversation
that we've ever had about about mental health, because, like
you hear mental health and maybe this is just me,
but oftentimes it seems like this super I guess a
setting where it's just like, think about your childhood ethereal
harder to put your finger on those really nebulous It's
like nav Gazi trying to nail slime to a wall

(46:55):
or something like that. And I feel like Asia was
able to make it practical, and so my big takeaway
I think it was when we're talking about emotions specifically
and how we just need to give ourselves a little
bit of grace because what we have done in the past,
right like that has informed who we are today, but
that doesn't necessarily mean that that is what we need
to continue to do. She was saying like she was

(47:15):
taking a very thankful posture towards that, where she's just like, Okay,
that was necessary for that point in your life. That
is how you survived. Was that informed how it is
that you earned money, or that informed how you spent money.
But once you've identified a new priority, a new value,
you can move essentially move on from. That is sort
of what I took from her talking about.

Speaker 1 (47:35):
The more you let it define you, the more it
will continue to impact your future.

Speaker 2 (47:38):
You're basically just trapped, which I also love how at
the end she was talking about that, she was just
saying like, hey, if you find yourself in the same patterns,
if you're in the same rut and you can't get out, well,
then maybe somebody needs to come alongside you to kind
of kind of jar you out out of those rats
a little bit party pro yeah, but to not beat
yourself up over the things that happened in the past,
knowing that, hey, there are changes that you can make now.

(48:00):
Let that help to inform your decisions moving forward. And
that was my big table.

Speaker 1 (48:04):
When does it ever help to just punch yourself in
the house, you know, like helpful? Literally from a physical standpoint,
you're just going to hurt yourself. But then also when
you're doing it from an emotional standpoint, it's you're not
making you're not improving right, and you're not exactly you're
not even going through some of those emotions that they're
really roiling on the inside totally. So can't you can't
just do that? I think my big takeaway was kind
of towards the and when we talked about minding the inputs.

(48:26):
And I think a lot of folks feel like those
things are unrelated. Whether it's social media, whether it's the fact,
whether it's a lack of community relationships, those things kind
of feel completely untangled for money, But I think they're
far more entangled than we like to give them credit
for sure, And it's really important to think about, well,
how much news am I consuming and how much social
media am I consuming? Do I need to take the

(48:47):
app off my phone completely? Is that gonna actually change
not only just how I feel as an individual, how
it feel as a person, but also is it going
to change how I interact with and relate to my money,
how I spend and how I choose to save.

Speaker 2 (49:00):
Not just your money but people. Right, It has an
impact on how we treat other people and then our
community around it. It has such like we are more
holistic beings than I think we give ourselves credit for.
And like you said, we think we can isolate different
things in our lives, but it has a bigger impact
on us than we I think could ultimately realize.

Speaker 1 (49:17):
And when you look at the numbers, not to bash,
but there is a preponderance of TV and social media,
TV watching and social media usage in this country. And
if we would cut down on those things and spend
a little more time in real human interaction, I think
we'd all be healthier. And guess what, I think we'd
have more money at the end of the day too.
It's weird to say, but I think those things are
related for sure.

Speaker 2 (49:37):
Totally agree.

Speaker 1 (49:38):
All right, let's get back to the beer that we
had on this episode. This is a Quality Time calsh
is by Inner Voice Brewing, And actually we picked this
beer up at the How To Money Hang in Atlanta,
which made quality time. Do we had quality time with.

Speaker 2 (49:48):
Good what a perfect beer for We should have only
all been drinking Quality Time, That's right. So I love
the label. First of all, there's like two beer glass
characters on the front of it, and it's just like
two buddies. Yep, reminds me of us. But I also
love the design of the label. It's like quality Time
is written over and over and over, like nineteen seventies.
It's very nineteen seventies. Specifically, what it makes me think

(50:10):
of is the plastic bag that you would get at
like a quickie mart, like at a gas station, where
it says thank you. It's like thank you, thank you,
thank you. That's totally what that looks like. It does.

Speaker 1 (50:19):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (50:19):
Yeah, it's like a mash up between like mister Yuck.
You remember the Mister Yuck stickers? You don't remember miss
oh you see, I think you're a touch too young
for this. Mister Yuck was this character in the eighties.
I remember being like a kindergartener and somebody would come
to your class and you talk about poison, and you
got these stickers and you stick them on things that
you're not supposed to drink, like rubbing alcohol or something

(50:41):
like like write something in at home that you know
as bad. You put mister yuck on there. That way
you're not you don't accidentally drink it or something like that.
That's what I think of when it's seen this Libea anyway,
probably had to put that up all over your house
just to prevent you from stick them on everything. And
I think my parents were annoyed.

Speaker 1 (50:57):
You put it on like the green beans of dinner,
and her mom's like.

Speaker 2 (51:00):
This, this is yeah, but yeah, what we your thoughts
on on this cultsh? So?

Speaker 1 (51:04):
I thought this was was crisp, refreshing and a little
bit creamy too, which is kind of nicely interesting.

Speaker 2 (51:10):
Crisp and creamy.

Speaker 1 (51:11):
Yeah, yeah, that really interesting combos. I don't really know
the last time I had a coolsh, but I was like,
oh man, this actually kind of makes me want to
go down that path a little more. And I don't
really know what distinguishes a kulsh from a pilsner. Now
I'm gonna have to do some research, but I really
like this one.

Speaker 2 (51:25):
You would think it would be something that we would know,
but we don't like drinking it.

Speaker 1 (51:30):
You know.

Speaker 2 (51:30):
We know way more about IPAs and stauts and honestly
sours as well, and even like barrel aged stuff. But
some of those different European beers were a little in
the dark about. But that doesn't mean we can't enjoy
these beers. But I totally agree. Really clean, refreshing crisp
remind me of like biting into like a like a
fresh green apple or like a tart paar kind of

(51:51):
had some of those vibes going on. But I'm glad
you and I got to enjoy one of these today
on the episode. But we'll have links up in the
shows with this episode at howdomoney dot com. We'll make
sure to link to Asia's site where you can learn
more just about mental health generally speaking, but then also man, yeah,
if you meet the criteria that she recommended there at

(52:13):
the end for when it might be time for you
to reach out to somebody. I really like how it
is that Asia is talking about mental health and specifically
how it impacts our money. But glad we got to
talk with her today. But buddy, that is gonna be
it for this episode, So until next time, best Friends Out,
best Friends Out,