May 28, 2025 • 55 mins
Newer listeners may not realize how OBSESSED with investing in real estate we were back in the day. In fact, when we were batting around ideas for a podcast, we initially thought it might be focused only on real estate... Luckily we zoomed out enough to cover personal finance more broadly. And it’s not that we’re not excited about rentals anymore, although the current state of the economy has changed our personal approach. But our guest today, Ryan Chaw, is most certainly all-in on real estate which is why we’re stoked to have him join us. Ryan grew his net worth to an astonishing $1.5 million at the age of 28, he completely replaced his pharmacist salary when he was 31, and is now helping others to do the same as a real estate investing coach. We discuss stepping away from a lucrative career, Ryan’s unique strategy of rentals in college towns, using his PRIME method for maximizing profit, high standards when it comes to due diligence, scaling his operations, and much more!
Want more How To Money in your life? Here are some additional ways to get ahead with your personal finances:
- Knowing your ‘money gear’ is a crucial part of your personal finance journey. Start here.
- Sign up for the weekly HTM newsletter. It’s fun, free, & practical.
- Join a thriving community of fellow money in the HTM Facebook group.
- Find the best credit card for you with our new credit card tool!
- Massively reduce your cell phone bill each month by switching to a discount provider like Mint Mobile.
During this episode we enjoyed a Hell or High Twilight by 21st Amendment! And please help us to spread the word by letting friends and family know about How to Money! Hit the share button, subscribe if you’re not already a regular listener, and give us a quick review in Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. Help us to change the conversation around personal finance and get more people doing smart things with their money!
Best friends out!
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Welcome to How to Money. I'm Joel, I'm Matt, and
today we're talking from pharmacists to full time real estate
investor with Ryan Shaw.
Speaker 2 (00:26):
Yeah, Joel, so, newer listeners to How to Money may
not realize how obsessed we were with investing in real
estate back in the day. True. Actually, when we were
batting around the initial ideas for a podcast, we thought
it might be focused only on real estate. How to
real Estate doesn't quite have the same ring as as
How the Money. Luckily we sumed out enough to cover
personal finance more broadly. But it's not that we are
(00:49):
not excited about rentals anymore, although the current state of
the economy maybe has changed our approach to which hopefully
we'll have some time to get to. But we've just
turned our efforts elsewhere. But our guest today, Ryan Shaw,
is most certainly all in all the real estate, which
is why we are stoked to have him join us today.
Ryan grew his net worth two one point five million
(01:10):
dollars at the age of twenty eight. He was able
to completely replace his pharmacist salary when he was thirty
one years old, and now man he's helping others to
do the same as a real estate investing coach, So
we're excited for him to share a story with listeners
today and perhaps to what listeners real estate investing appetites. So, Ryan,
(01:32):
thank you so much for joining us today on How
to Money.
Speaker 3 (01:34):
I appreciate it. Thanks for the invite, Matt.
Speaker 1 (01:36):
And Joel glad to have you Ryan. First question we
ask everyone who comes on though, is what do you
like to splurge on? Because obviously you're doing the smart stuff,
you're investing, growing your net worth, thinking about your future.
But what are you splurging on in the here and
now simultaneously? What's your craft for your equivalent?
Speaker 3 (01:50):
Yeah, it's definitely food. I'm a big foodie. I would
say we eat out at the Michelin star restaurants quite frequently,
especially when we go to visit like foreign countries like
Korea or Japan. We do try to book ahead for
those Michelin three star restaurants because those get booked out
(02:11):
like two months in advance, but we always have at
least week how Yeah, one experience for sure.
Speaker 2 (02:17):
All right, So the fact that you said the three
star restaurants, first of all, that's like a slight flex.
That's next level but then, like you're saying you're doing
this frequently, how often would you say that you are
showing up to any Mission Star restaurant.
Speaker 3 (02:31):
I think one year we probably went to ten or
twelve Michelin Star restaurants. It was a little bit.
Speaker 2 (02:37):
Okay, well right, well this is like a hard Yeah,
this is like a line I'm on Ryan's budget.
Speaker 1 (02:42):
Yeah, well we started before we start recording, Ryan, you
talk to us about the meal delivery that you use
called cook Unity, And at first glance you told me
that you basically all you have to do is heat
the food and it's pretty good, and so that's a
kind of a splurge, but in another way, it's not,
and it prevents you from meeting out more than you
(03:02):
otherwise would too.
Speaker 3 (03:03):
Right, yeah, yeah, exactly. So I have you know, date nights,
like once once a week or so, and then the
rest of the week. I use cook Unity because it's
a meal prep saves me a lot of time, you know,
driving to the restaurant, waiting forty minutes for our food
and driving back. It takes up a lot of my
time and I just you know, don't necessarily have that
(03:23):
time available to give, so I just you know enjoy
using the meal prep cook unity.
Speaker 2 (03:29):
All right, well, maybe folks can start doing co community
and Mission Star restaurants. Wants to start investing in real estate,
because evidently that's how you arrive there, Ryan, you didn't
start out doing real estate. You were a pharmacist, and
I think a lot of folks would consider that, like
that's a respectable job. You make a decent amount of money.
You've arrived. I think a lot of pharmacists once they
(03:50):
are able to finish school and start doing that. Why
did you start pursuing real estate investing when it seemed
like things were set for you from my career.
Speaker 3 (04:00):
Yeah, there's a couple reasons. The first is my grandpa
invested in real estate back in the fifties in the
San Francisco Bay area, and we all saw the houses
appreciated like crazy, rents went up, and he was not
only able to kind of retire early, but also able
to help cover part of my college tuition and that
of my brothers as well. So that's when I saw
(04:22):
that real estate is the best way to create generational wealth,
and so I wanted to get started as soon as possible.
The other reason why is because when I was working
in pharmacy. I would see these you know, fifty or
sixty year old pharmacists and I asked them like, Wow,
you've been here for so many years, right, what did
you like best about the job, And like several of
(04:43):
them told me the same thing. They're like, dude, I
would have quit a lot sooner, like a decade earlier,
if I could, but I have bills to pay. And
you know, they had that kind of attitude. I was like, man,
I don't want to be in my fifties and have
that attitude for something that I did for thirty years.
And I was like, man, I I want to pursue
something that I'm more passionate about that I can create
(05:03):
and build on my own. And that's what real estate
allowed me to do, is to kind of build my
own thing, to build my own empire. And so I
stumbled upon a really good strategy, which is renting by
the room, which actually increases obviously your rental income a
lot more than traditional real estate investing. And I just
(05:24):
kind of went off to the races. I bought one
property a year, poured all of my pharmacists salary into it,
and then I just continued on from there.
Speaker 2 (05:32):
All right, So I'm curious too.
Speaker 1 (05:34):
You had the example of your grandpa to look to, like, hey,
he did well with real estate. Look what he was
able to do. He was even able to pay for
my college and college for my siblings, or at least
part of.
Speaker 2 (05:44):
It, which is really cool.
Speaker 1 (05:45):
What was your goal when you're starting getting into real estate,
where you like, hey, I just want to be able
to grow my net worth more quickly, or I want
to retire early. Like, what was maybe the why behind
your real estate endeavors and why you ramped it up
so quickly.
Speaker 3 (05:59):
I would say financial freedom was ultimately the goal. At first,
it was a little bit hazy for me. I was
just getting started. I didn't know how to do anything.
I actually my grandpa was in the Bay Area, so
I couldn't like rely on him for constant advice or
anything like that. So I was pretty much on my
own when I started out, and I lost a lot
(06:20):
of money. But I guess, you know, when the times
got tough, I really looked to my grandpa for inspiration.
I was like, well, if I stick with it, I
could end up like my grandpa did, being able to
pay for future generations and never have to worry about money,
and so I was like, you know, I got to
keep at it. I lost over thirty thousand dollars, but
(06:41):
you know, I mean I could always make that back
working at my pharmacy job and working overtime, and so
I did. I worked a ton of overtime. I would
work like fourteen or fifteen hour days, double shifts because
I was working at the hospital, so I would get
in at seven thirty am and get out around eleven pm. Wow.
And so I did that for about two or three years,
(07:02):
just build up as much capital as possible, and eventually
I ended up creating kind of something that was self sustaining.
So every red toal that I purchased actually had cash flow,
so I was able to reinvest that cash flow to
buy the next one even faster. And then eventually, with
their appreciation and the cash flow, I was able to
buy multiple properties a year. So now I have fourteen
(07:25):
properties after doing this for about eight or nine years.
Speaker 1 (07:28):
So those three years working overtime, working your butt off
and saving up, So is that kind of your was
that your ability to roll the snowball uphill more quickly
so that once you got to the top and it
was going downhill, like you had more momentum. Yeah, because
a lot of people would say, I don't know, man,
that sounds really difficult to work fourteen to fifteen hour days,
(07:49):
you know, the way you were doing to amass a
big chunk of money so you could buy real estate,
and then so on top of the work, like you're
having to do the part time side hustle of investing,
of thinking through real estate and digging into the details
and finding out which properties are worth making offers on
and going to tour those homes. So it's not like
real estate's passive, like you're just tossing that money into
(08:11):
an SP five hundred index fund or something like that.
Speaker 2 (08:14):
That's a lot of work.
Speaker 3 (08:15):
It was a lot of hard work at the beginning.
I was very young though. I was twenty three at
the time, and when I started my pharmacist job, and
I just wanted to get at it, and I kind
of had I approached it with like do whatever it
takes mentality, you know, so when things came up, I
just pushed through it. And yes, it was tough, I
(08:36):
would say for the first two or three years, especially
because I was working all that overtime. But eventually, because
I built up my reputation as a really good student
housing provider, so I actually invest near college towns and
doing this rent by the room model. But because I
built up my reputation, I started getting a lot of referrals.
(08:57):
So every student that came in, they had a couple
of friends that were also interested in staying at my place.
So after about the second or third year, I didn't
really have to do my own marketing anymore. I basically
had students always refer others to me, or they would
stay for like one or two or three years, and
so it kind of was self propelling. I didn't have
(09:17):
to do any marketing. All I had to do was
manage the property and if like an appliance broke down
or a toilet's not working or something like this. But
those problems maybe came out once every two months on
average or three months on average, and I only had
like maybe three or four properties at that time, so
it actually wasn't as much work as I guess people
(09:38):
would think just having a few properties. Now, once I
got to fourteen properties, now I have you know, virtual
assistance and all of this, But at the beginning, it
was just me.
Speaker 2 (09:49):
Before and we're going to talk about that strategy because
it's something we've touched on the show recently. But to
be able to for you to really to be able
to unpack it, it's something that we want to do.
But before getting to that, I kind of met a
little bit because you talked about how I mean, you
said that you were doing whatever it took, right, like
you're working a ton of overtime. Do you see your
ability to get after it at a young age as
(10:12):
responsible for your ability to have saved up the money
to purchase these properties? And that leads me to I
guess another train of thought, which is do you think
that your higher education was sort of wasted time?
Speaker 3 (10:24):
Right?
Speaker 2 (10:24):
Like we talk about the declining value of college degrees
on the show from time to time. Do you think
that you would have been better served to become a
real estate investor straight out of high school or perhaps
that was the formative process that was necessary for you
to be able to get after it like you did
after graduating.
Speaker 3 (10:41):
Yeah, that's a very common question. If I were to
go back in time, would I do it the same? Yes,
one hundred percent. Actually, I really enjoyed my career as
a pharmacist. I enjoyed helping others providing that service, and
I think I really translated into providing services as a
landlord to really know how to deal with customers and
(11:03):
just that communication and pharmacists they kind of have a
system going on, and I had a lot of fun
kind of analyzing the system that the hospital had and
applying that kind of to real estate. That system based thinking,
having like a SOLP standard operating procedure for everything that
comes up in real estate. And so I created those
(11:24):
SOPs for my business and I found that it made
things a lot simpler. So definitely a lot of the
stuff I learned in pharmacy I actually did apply to
real estate at some point. And having that capital starting out,
I think is very important because real estate is very
capital intensive. But if you have the capital, you get
(11:47):
better interest rates, you get better loan terms. Having that
W two job I mean, and so I think it's
one of the best ways to get started is to
have that stable income so that you're you're not work
like let's say there's a three thousand dollars repair or
five thousand dollars repair you have to make at least
you have that income coming in to not worry about,
(12:09):
you know, coming out. I mean, obviously it sucks to
come out of pocket for that repair, but you know,
you also have the income to kind of stabilize yourself.
You know, there's no real estate takes over.
Speaker 1 (12:20):
Nother paycheck coming in two weeks as well. Right, So
there's all that that is from a conservative approach. You're
not like, you know, throwing the dice on the crab stable.
You have a methodical plan in place. I'm curious to.
So you said you invest in a college town, Let's
talk about the way in which you invest in real
estate because it is different. It's it's unique in a
(12:43):
lot of ways, and it does have potential benefits and
potential downsides. So why was renting individual rooms to college
students in your mind superior to other routes you could
have taken when it comes to getting into real estate investing.
Speaker 3 (12:57):
Yeah, So when I got started, I tested near my
alma mater college to other pharmacy students. So these are
people that I actually knew in school, and I was like, well,
why not rent out to you know, some friends or colleagues.
And so the very first one I bought in twenty sixteen,
I essentially rented to like healthcare professionals, so these were
(13:19):
pharmacy students. There was a pt students, dental students, and
so I found that this model makes a lot of
sense if you rent out to professionals, renting out to
people who are really studying hard to get that degree,
so you know, instead of throwing like wild house parties,
they're really focused on passing their mid terms and finals.
And even if you have one or two people who
(13:41):
are really focused on their studies, they kind of create
a culture of, hey, you can't have any house parties here.
I'm really focused on trying to get my doctorate. Right,
So I found that that market turned out to be
a really good market. I found that those turned out
to be really high quality students, especially if you invest
in our colleges that are you know, like IVY League
(14:01):
colleges for example. They don't have to be IVY League,
but I usually target top colleges that have a lot
of doctorate degrees healthcare degrees, engineering, MBA, law degrees. And
then I also found, like I mentioned earlier, that students
like to talk a lot, right, so work kind of
spreads like wildfire. If you turn out to be a
(14:22):
really great landlord and provide really good housing for students.
Like you'll get a ton of referrals just from that.
And like I said on my I would say around
year three it was kind of self propelling. I would
get so many referrals that I didn't have to do
my own marketing, and like one hundred percent of the
tennis that I got came from a referral at some point.
(14:43):
So yeah, that's where I started out, near my alma
mater college and it just kind of went from there.
Speaker 1 (14:49):
I just read a book about kind of some of
the crazy parties and stuff that happened at schools like
College of Charleston. So maybe don't invest in your College
of Charleston. I think you're picking the right school and
going after the right kinds of students, the right client
tele I guess to live in that house.
Speaker 3 (15:06):
Yes, yes, yeah, exactly.
Speaker 2 (15:08):
He said too. So I mean these are like, yeah,
like doctorates phdu students at the very least, students who
are getting their graduate degrees.
Speaker 3 (15:16):
Yep.
Speaker 2 (15:16):
How long did it take for you to save up
that initial down payment? Because it sounded like you graduated
you were a practicing pharmacist and then you were saving
up the cash in order to buy that first property.
Is that right?
Speaker 3 (15:26):
Yep, that's right. I had some money I put into
stocks when I was younger, but essentially I just worked
a lot of overtime that first year.
Speaker 2 (15:34):
Okay.
Speaker 3 (15:34):
I graduated in twenty fifteen, and then I put a
down payment in my first house. I think it was
October of twenty sixteen, okay, but back then it was
a two hundred and sixty two thousand dollars house in Stockton, California.
That's the first one that I bought.
Speaker 1 (15:48):
Okay, talk to us about maybe the overarching pros and
cons of the specific investing approach you take. So you
talk about trying to avoid the party house thing because
that would certainly have an impact on the wear and
tear right of the house, but also renting out by
the room means you have individual leases with a bunch
of different folks. How what Yeah, what is What are
(16:12):
the pros and cons? It sounds like this is potentially
more profitable as well, whereas if you're running it out
to a family or something like that versus running it
out by the room, you wouldn't be able to make
as much. So talk to us about like the Yeah,
the pros and cons there.
Speaker 3 (16:25):
Sure, the biggest pro course is the increased the amount of
cash flow, which allows you to really scale your portfolio.
So let's say I get the Let's say it starts
out as a three bedroom house. Usually I'll add two
or three bedrooms to make it a five bedroom or
six bedroom house. And if I rent it out to
six students and rent out about seven hundred dollars per
(16:47):
month per student, that's six times seven hundred is forty
two hundred dollars a month and rental income. And this
is on a house that you know, I bought for
like three hundred thousand or two hundred and fifty thousand
or something like that.
Speaker 1 (17:00):
Are you selling square footage or are you getting creative
with the square footage as it exists.
Speaker 3 (17:04):
I'm getting creative with the square footage as it exists exactly,
because I don't when I'm adding. If I add square footage,
that's obviously going to be a lot more expensive. I
have to, you know, go through a more rigorous permitting
process to add an addition to the house. But it's
much easier just to repurpose existing space. So let's say
there's a living room, family room, library room, office room, whatever.
(17:28):
Most of that I will turn into bedrooms and then just.
Speaker 2 (17:30):
Keep bedroom, bedroom, bedroom, exactly. Yeah, I'll go do that
Truman bathroom. That's all we need. Maybe a kitchen, yeah.
Speaker 3 (17:37):
Yeah, exactly. So what's cool about students is a lot
of times they're you know, studying, they're out of the house,
they're hanging out with their friends maybe, so they don't
need a whole lot of common space. Most of the
times they actually hang out in the rooms, maybe watch
Netflix or something like that. So I actually have houses
that do have a lot of common space, but they
don't even use that common space.
Speaker 2 (17:59):
So yeah, it's like wasted space, like for everybody. Yeah, basically,
it's obviously wasted for you. But I guess I hadn't
thought about that from the standpoint of just how our
culture has changed, and in some ways, like I almost
see that as like a negative, right, the fact that
folks are spending less time together. But what you're saying
is when it comes to students, I mean, some of
these students, I guess don't even really know each other,
and so they're probably keeping in this stuff that they're
(18:20):
fighting or anything. But maybe they're not like best buds,
where they're wunning that common space. Truly, all they're looking
for is somebody to keep the kitchen clean.
Speaker 3 (18:28):
Yeah, exactly. So they just you know, enjoy their own
private spaces. And it makes a lot of sense for
them because they're only paying six hundred or seven hundred
a month maybe versus on campus housing is charging over
one thousand a month and you have to live with
a roommate and you have to pay for a meal
plan and parking. And so what's good about the off
campus housing is it's like half the price of you know,
(18:50):
on campus housing. So for a lot of people it
makes sense, especially people who are trying to save money.
A lot of times these students have their parents paying,
and so the parent is not going to just stop
paying rent all of a sudden and risk their child
getting evicted from the place they're staying in college. And
what's cool is, again, like you guys were talking about,
(19:12):
I rent mainly to graduate students because campus housing provides
on campus housing for undergrads, but they don't provide enough
housing for graduate students. In fact, a lot of them
don't provide any housing for graduate students. Sometimes I call
up the university and I ask them, oh, what type
of grad housing do you have, and they'll say, like,
(19:33):
we don't have any available because we have so many
undergrads that they pushed out some of the grad students
for the housing. So that's when I realized, like, oh,
you know, this is a really big market because there's
like three thousand grad students and they don't have anywhere
else to stay but off campus. So those are some
of the pros.
Speaker 1 (19:52):
Yeah, so tell me real quick, then you buy, you buy.
Let's say it's just a three hundred thousand dollars house,
it's a three bedroom, two bath, what would that have
rented for? And then you turn it into a five
bedroom six hundred bucks a pop. You're making three grand
a month. What did it have rented for? And then
what do you get?
Speaker 3 (20:09):
Yeah, so the typical rent rates around like Stockton, California.
It started out around fifteen hundred a month I would
say for a three bed, two bath, but it went
up to around two twenty one hundred or so. But
if I rented out to six people at seven hundred
dollars a month, the rental income is more like forty
two hundred a month. My largest house I rent how
(20:31):
for about six fifty per bedroom in Cleveland, Ohio, And
it's a ten bedroom house that I bought for three
hundred and sixty seven thousand, and I rented out for
six thousand, five hundred and fifty dollars a month, and
the mortgage payment was around twenty three to fifty or
twenty four hundred a month, So it was about four thousand.
Speaker 2 (20:49):
A month for as a keeper, you know right there?
Speaker 3 (20:53):
Mortgage Yeah, yeah, yeahly kayh sure.
Speaker 2 (20:55):
Well awesome. So you're getting at a couple of things
that we want to talk to you more about. You're
talking about kind of different locations. We're going to get
to that and more specifically too, I guess some of
the other ways that you are figuring out whether or
not these properties are going to work for you moving forward.
We get to all that and more right after this.
Speaker 1 (21:18):
All right, we're back from the break, still talking about
real estate investing with Ryan Shaw and how Hey, you
can make more money as a real estate investor than
you can as a pharmacist if you play your cards
right and you work your butt off. So Ryan, I
love just kind of the way that you found a
specific model of real estate investing, and you replicated it
in order to increase your revenue and decrease some of
(21:42):
the downside too. I'm curious how do you vet properties
because every every investor has different metrics they want to hit.
What is it that you're looking for?
Speaker 3 (21:51):
What?
Speaker 1 (21:51):
Yeah, what do you need to see in a listing
to make you to pequk your interest?
Speaker 3 (21:55):
Yeah, I definitely have a very specific buybox. So for students,
so you have to think about for any real estate, right,
you have to think about who is your target client,
who is your client avatar, and what are they looking for?
So for college students or grad students, they're typically looking
for how close am I to the school? Because if
(22:16):
they're waking up for their eight am classes, they want
to be as close as possible. So I try to
buy within a walking distance to campus if possible, or
if it's more of a commuter college where you have
to drive to campus than usually within a five minute
driving distance. Now, a lot of things I do for
students include providing transportation for them. So I might actually
(22:38):
purchase an electric scooter. Haven't signed a liability waiver and stuff,
but I might purchase an electric scooter for them to
use free of charge to get to campus. So that's
the number one thing is location and proximity to campus.
Number two is safety. So if you are a parent
of one of these students and you're driving around from
(22:59):
your house to the school, are you passing through any
unsafe areas? Do you see a lot of homeless, a
lot of maybe gang members or something like that, Because
then the parent, if the parent feels unsafe having their
kid there, obviously the kid's probably not going to live there,
and obviously the kids don't want to be held up
at endpoint or anything like that. So buying in a
(23:19):
safe neighborhood is super important. And then affordability. So these
students they're looking for trying to save some money, and
you know, maybe they want more money for groceries and
food and hanging out and so they will you know,
stay off campus to save money as well. So you
do have to make sure your pricing is very reasonable
(23:39):
for the area, and that requires doing like market research,
talking to students, seeing what their budgets are typically around
that area, so that you're not overcharging, because even if
you're like twenty dollars above their budget, they will just
write you off, like if their budget is seven hundred
dollars flat or less and your place is seven twenty.
(24:00):
They're going to go like, oh, that's above my budget,
and they're not going to look, you know, look at
second look at your place. So you really have to
get the pricing right. And then the last thing is community.
So students want to stay with other students or maybe
healthcare professionals like medical interns, medical residents, and medical fellows.
So I market myself as exclusively for students and medical
(24:24):
workers or healthcare professionals. And because you know, I'm trying
to keep a certain culture at the house and students
may not be comfortable let's say living with a family
of five or something like that. It just feels a
little bit uncomfortable for them. So yeah, I typically just
target students.
Speaker 1 (24:43):
Are you paying for the utilities and or are you
essentially taking the utility amount, subdividing it and sending everyone
a bill at the end of the month, because you know,
some people might be taking those long hot showers and
other people might be might not be. Ye, how do
you do the utility thing?
Speaker 3 (24:58):
Yeah, the fairest way to do that is, like you said,
add them all up and subdivide them equally among the tenants.
The only utility technically that I pay for is the landscaping,
which is not really a utility. But yeah, everything else,
the electric, gas, water, garbage, sewage, the students cover.
Speaker 2 (25:17):
Do you lean towards newer constructions versus older houses, because
I've heard you talk about some of the massive problems
you had with the first house that you purchased, problems
that would sink most investors talk about that. I guess,
like I hear you talk about this ten bedroom house
in Ohio. Huh do they make houses that big these days?
(25:37):
It sounds kind of like this old mansion they do.
If you recommand hear all the other rooms.
Speaker 3 (25:41):
Yeah, it's kind of like an old mansion.
Speaker 2 (25:43):
Used to be a library. Yeah. Now this is three
bedrooms that I fit in here. Yeah, I guess talk
about newer versus older properties.
Speaker 3 (25:50):
Yeah, older properties definitely tend to have more problems with them.
It could be the plumbing, the electricals, it could be
like the roof or the HVAC. So well, typically, what
I do is I just do more due diligence before
I purchase a property, whereas most people might just get
a typical home inspection I might add on inspections, like
(26:11):
I'll have an HVACT technician go in there to see
how old the HVACT is and if it's in proper
order or if it's going to die in a couple years.
I get a breofer. Sometimes I get a plumber and
electrician to check out the plumbing and electricals, and I'll
get a sewage inspection as well, especially for older houses
(26:31):
if it's built before the nineteen eighties, usually it's using
cast iron piping, and cast iron can brust and have
roots stick in to them. So I've had to replace
several sewage lines before, which can cost like nine thousand
dollars a piece potentially. So I learned my lesson, and
what I do is I do extra inspections during the
(26:53):
due diligence phase so that I can tell the seller, Hey,
this is what it's estimated the cost to replace the
sewage line that currently has a bunch of roots sticking
into it. Can you cover that cost? Because you know,
I'm not going to buy the place if it's not
in a decent enough condition. So a lot of that
I negotiate, and I mean I've gotten houses for like
(27:15):
one of them, I got for eighty three thousand dollars
under asking price. I've had up to fifteen thousand or
twenty thousand of seller credit before. And it's just all
about doing your due diligence and so that you can
negotiate with the seller. And it's always okay to walk
away from a deal. That's the first lesson I learned
from my realtor. That's the first thing he told me,
is like, don't feel like you have to be attached
(27:38):
to a deal, you know, don't feel like you have
to buy this deal. You can always walk away if
the seller doesn't want to work with you. And having
that mentality allowed me to basically be in a better
negotiating position for a lot of these deals that I purchase.
So you know, I might have a give me fifteen
thousand dollars to replace the HVAC, you know, and I
(27:59):
can just replace it right after I close on the property,
and that way I have a brand new HVACT I
don't have to worry for the next thirty years. And
you know, same thing for roofing, electrical as plumbing, I
will get credit put towards that if it's in bad shape.
Speaker 1 (28:13):
Yeah, the most important elements of the house. I'm curious
if someone is listening and they're like, wow, what Ryan's doing.
This makes no sense going directly for the single, you know,
running out by the room to graduate students, and it
sounds like the cash flow is pretty sweet if you.
Speaker 2 (28:30):
Use this model.
Speaker 1 (28:31):
Do you think that other people should follow your specific
route to real estate investing success or is it important
for them to find their own niche I'm curious what
you think about that.
Speaker 3 (28:42):
I think this strategy is one of the best out there,
hands down. Like it's very hard to do traditional real
estate investing where you buy a house and then you
rent it out to a family and be able to
make cash flow. For this method, if you're making you know,
seven hundred times six bedrooms forty two hundred dollars a month,
it's it's kind of harder to like not make cash
(29:04):
flow using it, right, And that's why I think it's
one of the best places for people to get started,
because you really do need that cash flow at the
beginning so that you can continue to reinvest. You don't
have to come out of pocket for expenses. You know,
let's say your roof needs to be replaced, Well, that's
like fifteen thousand dollars or like, you know, twelve thousand
(29:26):
to fifteen thousand dollars. And so if you're only making
one hundred dollars a month in cash flow, basically the
next fifteen years of cash flow is going to be
wiped out by one roof replacement. Versus if you're making
let's say fifteen hundred a month in cash flow by
doing the student housing model, well you're gonna after what
(29:46):
ten months, you'll be able to replace a roof if
you wanted to with the cash flow, and you know,
not every year the roof breaks down obviously, so you're
going to be a lot more profitable. So I think
for that reas it's one of the best ways to
get started. It's not as complicated as like doing Airbnb
and having to provide all that service, having to text
(30:09):
back and forth between all the tenants all the time.
So I think it's like a lot less time investment
to get started and a lot more return. But if
that being said, everyone has their own, you know, passions.
So if you like to flip and you feel drawn
towards flipping, then yes, find a mentor who's really good
at flipping, and you know, get in touch with them
(30:31):
and maybe have them teach you through one of your
first flips. But everyone's a little bit different and so
obviously one size doesn't fit all.
Speaker 2 (30:41):
Yeah, that makes sense. I feel like what you're doing
it's somewhere in between airbnb versus renting long term do
a single family because it's not like you're every three
days you're having to get a new tenant in there.
That's it does take a whole lot more work to
do that. But like you said, if you've got six
tenants in a house, that's five more than I've got
who I'm having to deal with. But at the same time,
(31:03):
you've got more money coming in, so there's more work involved,
but there's also certainly more more cash flow, which is
what you're talking about here. And you actually you just
shared the example of like a roof replacement. You have
you had any issues with especially I'm curious too, with
you being out in California the insurers and what it
is that they're willing to take to take on a
lot of insurers showing up at properties and inspecting and saying, hey,
(31:27):
you got to get this repaired. How have you factored
that into your overall business model.
Speaker 3 (31:32):
You know, I was kind of lucky. I purchase like
five technically six properties in California before State Farm decided
to not ensure any houses in California anymore. And so
what's nice is California, I guess, or for State Farm
at least they kept their legacy clients. So I got
locked in luckily to that home insurer. But yeah, it's
(31:55):
definitely an issue if the house is in poor condition.
So for example, there's something called knob in tube electricals,
and if the house has like knob in two, there's
a lot of insurance who don't want to ensure that
because of potential fire hazard with that type of electrical
So a lot of times, you know, you could negotiate
with the seller to replace it or replace some of it,
(32:17):
or you know, a good amount of it, or you
can find a mature who eventually does it, but you
might have to pay more. Typically for I would say
yearly insurance costs, it could range from twelve hundred to
twenty four hundred per year. But yeah, I think nowadays
it's a little bit harder to find somebody. But once
you find a good insurer who will cover all that stuff,
(32:39):
then you just use the same one for every one
of your houses.
Speaker 1 (32:43):
Yeah, a little less competition in California, specifically on the
home insurance market. Sadly, I'm curious too about tenants. You've
talked about this. This seems to be a lynchpin of
your investing model is catering to the right tenant, the
tenant you want who's going to take care of your property.
You have something called the prime method, right, And this
(33:04):
is something also, by the way, that Matt and I
have talked about many times. That is the thing, sadly
that many landlords pay the least amount of attention to
is the tenant that they pick. They don't go through
all the proper vetting requirements to find a person who
is going to take care of their property and who
is qualified to rent the property. So what's the prime
method and why is that so important?
Speaker 3 (33:26):
Oh? Yeah, So the prime method is for basically a
method I use to find really high quality tenants. So
first I figure out, okay, who's my tenant avatar, right,
who's my perfect tenant? And then I try to figure out, okay,
where does that tenant hang out? So P stands for
placement of advertisements or you know, basically where you're placing
(33:47):
your ads. So if I'm like marketing to college students,
I will want to maybe post on and you don't
have to do this, but you know, you could post
on campus bulletin boards. The most common method I use
is getting out too these Facebook housing groups. There's a
specificly a lot of off campus Facebook housing groups for
(34:08):
student housing, so I will post there. I will go
on like roomies dot com. Obviously there's like Craigslist. There's
something called u loop, which is university Loop. It basically
is a site specifically for university housing. And so I
will just get onto all these student affiliated sites and
(34:29):
student housing sites so that I specifically can find students
our stands for reviewing social media. So like for Facebook
housing groups, somebody contacts me through Facebook, I can quickly
click into their profile and see are they like partying
all the time, you know, drinking alcohol and drugs and
stuff like that, or are they you know, somebody who's
(34:52):
more serious about their studies. Maybe they're pursuing a doctorate
or something like that.
Speaker 1 (34:56):
So if you see keg stands, you stop that conversation immediately.
Speaker 3 (34:59):
Yeah, exactly, So, yeah, I really pay attention to that stuff,
and once you get one good quality tenant in there,
typically they also have really high quality, you know, tenant
friends that they can bring in. Like let's say I
bring in a pharmacy student, and then they bring in
their group of five pharmacy friends. You know, it just
(35:19):
turns out to be a much better culture. I stands
for identifying what type of tenant are they? So when
you talk with them through email or phone, are they
very needy? Are they like asking for a lot of things,
or they kind of act a little bit entitled? You know,
I try to avoid that type of tenant who's like
very needy. Let's see M stands for measuring responsiveness. So
(35:44):
the more responsive they are, like if they're getting their
paperwork back to you really quickly, I find that they're
you know, those types of tenants are a lot more
responsible as well. So kind of figure out, okay, are
they responsive and getting everything back to me really quickly?
And then E stands for ensuring proof of income. So
(36:05):
I always check the proof of income to make sure
that they're able to pay the rent. Usually I want
three times the rent coming in as income. So let's
say they're paying seven hundred a month, I want to
see at least twenty one hundred dollars a month coming
in from usually one of the parents, or if the
student has a financial aid or a stipend or student loans.
(36:25):
They have multiple ways to pay the rent, and usually
I invest in universities or nearby universities where the student's
paying like twenty thousand or forty thousand dollars intuition, So
to pay seven thousand dollars in rent, you know, if
they have the means to pay forty thousand dollars intuition
a year, they have the means to usually pay seven
thousand dollars in rent a year.
Speaker 2 (36:46):
Very cool you. So you talked about how originally you
were purchasing in Stockton, California. Sounds like a pleasant, nice
place to live, but then you also mentioned Ohio. Talk
about the logistic challenges of investing in different parts of
the country because like a lot of what you're able
to capitalize on when you're purchasing properties in the same
(37:08):
town or same neighborhood are it's the scale that you're
able to achieve and the ability to line up a oh,
I've got this great plumber by the way, swing by
this house as well, do this exactly, or you pay
for long care exterior maintenance. I'm sure you've seen the
advantage there. Talk about lining up contractors and some of
the other logistical challenges when you are purchasing in separate
(37:30):
cities and separate states.
Speaker 3 (37:32):
Oh yeah, definitely. So you know, I say that I
felt very lonely when I got started in real estate investing,
and I felt like I was on my own. But
the truth is in real estate you're never on your
own because you always have a team, or you start
building up a team. And what I recommend is to
kind of like what I do is I have an
Excel list of all the contractors that are you know,
(37:54):
I vetted, I found that they're trustworthy, and I have
one for every profession. So I'll have like one or
two actually for every profession because you want to have backups.
So for example, like plumbing, I will have like two
contractors for plumbing, or two plumbers. I'll have two four electricians,
I will have two roofers. I will have two people
(38:15):
who are great at HVAC. I'll have like two people
who are good at sewage line replacements and so on
and so forth. And basically, once you create that list.
If something happens to your property, like there's a backup,
all you have to do is call plumber number one
or plumber number two. They'll go over to the house.
(38:35):
You know, you might give them the lock box code.
Maybe it's a temporary code to get in if you
don't trust them, but usually eventually I end up trusting
these plumbers and electricians and then they'll go in.
Speaker 2 (38:45):
Basically, then are you doing this across all the different
cities and states that you are looking to invest in.
Speaker 3 (38:50):
It's just yes, I do. So that's why it's so
important to really scale up in one market at a time.
So the first market for me California, I scaled up
to six properties and then I sold my first one,
and then I bought eight in Ohio, eight student rentals
in Ohio, and then I scaled up there. I'm sorry, yeah,
(39:11):
I bought one at first obviously, and then I scaled
to eight. So basically, you want to be in a
one or two or maybe three cities. But the reason
thing is because every time you started in a new city,
you've got to build another team, right, But once you
build up that team, it becomes self sustaining because like
as you said, you know that plumber. He can swing
(39:31):
by all your houses and check for all the plumbing
problems that fix.
Speaker 1 (39:35):
So you talked about, Hey, I started off as a pharmacist.
I'm working extra. I'm building up the bank roll to
have the down payment to buy these initial properties starting
at one a year. So you started using your own
money to build that rental portfolio. But now I think
I've heard you say that you're using capital. You're raising
capital to grow your real estate holdings faster. Yeah, what
(39:57):
are the pros and cons of raising capital? How you
doing that?
Speaker 2 (40:00):
And what's that look like?
Speaker 3 (40:02):
Yeah, first off, it wasn't until like year seven or
something where I was like, oh, you know, I have
some family members who they know what I'm doing, because
you know, family members can be nosy, and they're like, hey,
can I get in on this. I'm like maybe. So
I've raised I think about two hundred thousand or something
(40:23):
from family members, not one hundred percent necessary again, but
you know, when I first started again, I bought like
maybe seven before I actually got on my first investor.
But I guess like once you start building a reputation,
I guess people start noticing and then a lot of
times they want to invest with you, and if you
(40:44):
trust them, you can go ahead and make a deal
with them. A lot of my deals, though, are structured
as debt deals. I never really want to give out equity.
I prefer to do debt because there's a lot of
more legal ramifications if you offer equity in your property
to investors. In fact, there's like the SEC that gets involved.
(41:05):
You have to do something called like a PPM private memorandum,
private something memorandum, and so it just it's a lot
more complicated, and like a PPM, it costs like like
five thousand and seven dollars or no, actually I think
it's like ten thousand to fifteen thousand, sorry to do. So, yeah,
usually it's better to do debt. And so what I
(41:26):
do is, I'll, you know, borrow let's say fifty thousand
dollars from a family member and it's a minimum of
fifty thousand, and it's a twelve percent return. So basically
they send the fifty thousand and then they get five
hundred dollars a month from a debt payment, and it's
just interest, not equity. Again, So and then I'll do
(41:47):
like a five year loan term or something like that.
And at the end of the five years, like a
year before, like a year four or something like that,
I'll ask them, Hey, do you want to extend that
loan or you want your fifty thousand dollars back? And so,
you know, I need some time ahead of time to
let's say I save up a couple months worth of
cash flow to pay it back if they want to,
(42:07):
you know, get out of the deal. But a lot
of times, you know, once somebody is seeing that return
for like five years, they're like, Oh, might as well
keep it in there, unless I'm really desperate, you know.
Speaker 2 (42:17):
So we don't often advise folks to take money from
family members. It feels like it can be something that
could lead to hurt relationships issues, maybe at Thanksgiving. What
are you outlining when you enter into some of these
agreements with your family members, Like, it sounds like you
are outlining some very clear terms. It sounds like you've
(42:38):
got good communication. What are some other highlights or specific
points that you're making sure to include.
Speaker 3 (42:44):
Yeah, you definitely need a written agreement. Some people are like, oh,
it's family, you know, maybe you just do it verbal.
Absolutely not. You definitely have to have a contract written.
It should be written by an attorney, and the attorney
will be able to kind of give everyone, tell everyone
what's going to look like and what are some things
(43:05):
to look out for. Like let's say I don't know,
maybe the investor passes away. What happens to that mode, right,
What happens is the operators pass away. Right. So those
are awesome things you really have to think through when
you do the loan. But typically if you do more
of like a loan versus your investing in equity, it's
(43:27):
just a lot simpler because it's just like you get
a twelve percent rate for five years, you're not allowed
to take out that fifty thousand before to five years ends.
And you know, those are the biggest two terms that
you need to know, and so it's pretty easy to
explain to people, and you do have to be very
clear upfront that this is what it's going to look like. Like.
(43:47):
You can't just, you know, emergency take out that fifty
thousand if you want your fifty thousand dollars back. Basically
you would have to find a replacement on the loan,
so somebody else to put in fifty thousand in order
for you to take out your fifty thousand.
Speaker 1 (44:00):
Yeah, it's it's not a very liquid investment. They have
to know that upfront.
Speaker 3 (44:04):
Yes, exactly, that's the most important thing I would say.
But yeah, I mean I don't really see. I mean,
other than those things you have to think about, you know,
I enjoy doing business with family because the way I
see it as like we're also building their wealth too,
because they are making a very good return, better than
(44:24):
the stock market, and so it's like we're building not
just our wealth with the family wealth. And I was like,
you know, once I kind of reframed it that way,
I felt like more comfortable with it. Obviously, never do
business with somebody don't like one hundred percent trust. But
I grew up with these family. I'm very close with
my family, and I grew up with them and everything.
(44:45):
So I feel, you know, comfortable taking on an investment
from family.
Speaker 2 (44:50):
Yeah. Very cool.
Speaker 1 (44:51):
We've got a few more questions to get to with you, Ryan,
including how how does what's happening in the macro economic
the overall real estate market and the shifts there, how
does that change how you think about investing. We'll get
to that and more right after this.
Speaker 2 (45:13):
We are back from the break talking about investing in
real estate with Ryan Chaw, specifically student housing. I think
it's a it's the strategy we haven't really talked too
much about here on the show. But Ryan, are you
planning to continue to expand your overall portfolio, your your
personal empire?
Speaker 3 (45:31):
Sure?
Speaker 2 (45:31):
Because I mean now like you're financially independent now. You
talked about how you were wanting that financial freedom, Like
that's how it is that you got into it. Have
your ambitions grown? Are you wanting more Michelin Star meals?
Like not just once a month? Maybe it's like every night?
How about it like once a week? Baby?
Speaker 3 (45:48):
I think I would get really fat if I did
once a week. Those meals are like three thousand calories.
But yeah, I mean for me, I always want to grow.
I don't see why not, right, I always I like
the child, for one thing, And I don't feel comfortable
just sitting on a beach sipping Margarita's, you know. So
I would say I'm always definitely wanting to grow. And
(46:10):
a portion of the cash flow that I'm making I
will obviously use to cover all my expenses, but everything
else if I'm not using it or bookmarking it for
vacation or you know, a missilin Star restaurant, then I
will reinvest it because why not, right? And so I
still still stick to buying at least one property a year,
(46:31):
and I hope to eventually someday get to like one
hundred properties. We'll see. You just have to have a
really good team with that. And so one of my
biggest focuses right now with the scaling is just training
my team. I meet with them every week, and you
don't necessarily have to do that, but I have a
full time VA, I have a twenty hour week via
(46:52):
as well, and I have a bookkeeper. So, you know,
just investing in them so that I can continue to
scale has been my phone.
Speaker 1 (47:00):
How how do you like the macroeconomic realities that are
happening when it comes to supply in the housing market, prices,
interest rates, How does that impact the offers you're making
in your likelihood to because because also if you were
like I'm going to get I'm going to buy a
house every year no matter what. Well, what if it's
a year where deals are harder to find and I
(47:22):
don't know, maybe maybe you say I'll maybe I'll hold
off for now? Do two next year. I don't know,
how are you thinking about growth when it's become harder
to find great deals.
Speaker 3 (47:30):
Yeah, So, first off, the first rule I learned in
real estate has never try to time the market. Like
I know, there are definitely bad times in real estate,
right but like two thousand and eight obviously, But what
you want to do is actually double down when nobody
else is buying, because in many ways, because a lot
of buyers are scared away, they're like, oh, interest rates
(47:51):
are so high, I don't feel like I really want
to buy a house, And so the sellers who are
trying to get rid of the house they have nobody
to sell to. So you have a law more negotiating power,
and you could get a very significant discount on a property.
And then let's say, you know, interest rates are high now,
but in like two or three years, maybe five years, whatever,
interest rates will eventually drop because they always do it
(48:13):
cyclical with the depth cycle that you know occurs, and
eventually that seven percent interest rate will be like five
percent maybe, and you can then refinance all of your
properties and save Not only you get a discount on
the property, but you also, you know, get that ability
to refinance, so you kind of get the best of
(48:34):
both worlds if you buy now, for instance. But what
I would say is like, if you look back in
time and you look at like where prices were back then,
almost always are like, oh yeah, you got it for
a really good deal. It's so so cheap. But you know,
back then in the moment, it felt like that house
was very expensive because of where wages were, et cetera.
(48:57):
So with inflation, basically what happens is the dept in
real estate gets the inflation roads away at the depth
it gets. It makes the depth cheaper and cheaper every
single year. So by that logic, basically they say the
best time to buy is now. Are technically the best
time to dubuy was ten years ago. Sorry, but the
(49:18):
second best time is now. And that's always going to
be true in real estate because real estate prices always
appreciate over time, and with how inflation works, it basically
just it rolls away at that depth and creates more
cash flow for you.
Speaker 1 (49:35):
Yeah, I think that's part of the Those are two
strong appeals for real estate investing. Is, hey, the inflation
is actually going to make your debt look less bad
over the years, and the price appreciation is kind of
happens like clockwork with the with the random exception of
the Great Recession, things like two thousand and eight. Ryan,
Thank you so much for joining us today on the podcast.
(49:57):
Where can our listeners find out more about you and
your investing advice?
Speaker 3 (50:02):
Yeah, so I do provide coaching for getting started and
this method because it led to financial freedom for me,
and I'm just so passionate about like helping others with
doing this because it's been so powerful for me. And
so if you want to reach out, you can go
to www. Dot Newbie real Estate Investing dot com slash
guide and you just sign up your email there and
(50:25):
it'll give you a free pdf on how to get
started and student housing, how to get started in real
estate in general, and a lot of the tips and
mistakes that I made so that you can learn from them.
You also get on my newsletter list where I also
provide like random real estate tips and help or getting started.
Speaker 2 (50:45):
Very cool.
Speaker 1 (50:46):
Ran, We appreciate you man, thanks for joining us today.
Speaker 3 (50:48):
Thanks again.
Speaker 2 (50:50):
Well, all right, Jill, nice little enlightening conversation with our
guest today, Ryan Shaw talking about student housing specifically.
Speaker 1 (50:59):
I love how real estate investing doesn't have to be
a one size fits all thing. Uh, and Ryan shows that, Hey,
I found my niche inside of this thing called real
estate investing and he's doing.
Speaker 2 (51:11):
Well with it. Yeah, So what's your big takeaway?
Speaker 1 (51:13):
So my big takeaway was when he was talking about
all of the inspections he does before he buys a home,
pretty dang thorough, very thorough, and doing your due diligence
before making an investment is crucial. The same when we
were talking about high standards for tenants. Both of those
things combined made me think, oh, Ryan's not just seeing
(51:35):
the dollar signs. And then he's like yeah, and going forward,
he said, now I see the dollar signs, but I
want to make sure that I'm taking an approach that
ensures that those dollars are actually going to come into
my pocket. And then I'm not going to be spending
them needlessly on improvements to the house because I didn't
think ahead. So I love, Yeah, with just the forethought
(51:56):
he's bringing into the investments.
Speaker 2 (51:57):
So he's making the thoroughness and it's not wasting money,
because it sounds like in a lot of cases, if
there's some bad news that comes up, he's able just
to take that and negotiate that that price now, which
it's like a no brainer to if you are looking
at buying something to have some of these specialized inspections
done really smart. But my big takeaway is going to
be just this approach broadly speaking, Like though, as he
(52:18):
was talking through some of these houses and how he's like, oh, no, no, no,
it was a three bedroom, now it's a six bedroom.
And how he's just used some of these other bed No, no,
they're not bedrooms, but they are now. And it made
me think through, oh, what properties do I have near universities?
Is there a way to convert this more into student housing?
It seems like such a low piece of hanging fruit
gel and like, obviously, why would you at least not
(52:40):
consider that if that's something that if real estate a
is something you're interested in, but b if that's something
you already have, I think there's a way to even
shift your strategy when it comes to a certain property.
So I think this could be just a good takeaway
not for new real estate investors, but also for folks
out there like us. You already have properties, yeah, to
think about converting them.
Speaker 1 (52:59):
And really, what he's talking about there is forced appreciation,
because what everybody else sees what the mlscs and anybody
who looks and doesn't dig a level deeper, they see
a three two and this would get me roughly this amount,
and he says no, no, no no. With some drywall and
uh and in a couple days worth of work, I
can throw a couple.
Speaker 2 (53:16):
Up Extrafore it's like something even I could do. Yeah,
maybe don't skimp on the rock woll So the sound.
Speaker 1 (53:23):
And acoustic it's amazing when somebody else sees he sees
something a little bit extra, He's like, well, how big
of those common rooms? And how could I kind of
siphon off another bedroom or two from this?
Speaker 2 (53:34):
Uh?
Speaker 1 (53:34):
And sounds like it's it's working out well for him.
Speaker 2 (53:37):
Yeah, And so I wanted to mention that because so
last week when we talked with Nick, and that was
essentially one of his quote unquote hacks, was the fact
that he got a property where he was living in
the basement.
Speaker 3 (53:46):
Right.
Speaker 2 (53:47):
But it seemed like that in my mind, didn't seem
quite as replicable because it's kind of like, oh, here's
a diamond in the rough. They just had this thing
categorized incorrectly. He just happened to be the one that
found it. This is the way that you're able to
essentially do that, possibly on repeat, as long as you
have the kind of tenants who are looking to move
into a house like that, specifically around a university for sure.
So I like that.
Speaker 3 (54:06):
All right?
Speaker 1 (54:07):
What was your take on the beer we have? This
one's called Hell or High Twilight. You're used to probably
the Hell or High Water Island, No, yeah, twenty first
Amendment brewery.
Speaker 2 (54:15):
But I found this.
Speaker 1 (54:15):
This is just a citrus wheat ale from a classic
old brewery.
Speaker 2 (54:19):
What are your thoughts? Very citrusy, It's like so good,
I would say a drink really get clean. It wasn't
like overly complex, it wasn't overly nuanced, but it had
a nice like citrus flavor going on. It's a citrus,
citrusy wheat I would say high specifically in orange citrus.
Oh yeah, and light.
Speaker 1 (54:37):
I can almost have like a little scuret of orange
juice in yes, yeah, yeah exactly. So yeah, nothing nothing
overly insane about this craft beer. But also with the
warm weather firmly in hand now, it's kind of nice
to have a light, refreshing citrus wheat beer. I think
it's suitable for these summer months.
Speaker 2 (54:54):
What are so like a more macro widely available version
of this would be like a shock top or is
this Yeah, probably does. I would say that if you're
into this, is.
Speaker 1 (55:04):
This beer has been around a long time, or this brewery,
So I would imagine a lot of people can find
this anything something by twenty first Amendment.
Speaker 2 (55:09):
With yeah, that's what I was gonna say, just I
would point people in this direction as opposed to some
of those more like even more widely available, inferior versions
of this particular beer. I really yeah, I really dug.
Speaker 1 (55:21):
This need to all right, that's gonna do it for
this episode, Matt, we will, of course link to some
of the resources Ryan mentioned up on our website at
howtomoney dot com. You know it, don't forget to sign
up for that how many newsletter while you're there. That's
gonna do it, though, Matt. Until next time, Best Friends Out,
Best Friends Out.
Welcome to How to Money. I'm Joel, I'm Matt, and
today we're talking from pharmacists to full time real estate
investor with Ryan Shaw.
Speaker 2 (00:26):
Yeah, Joel, so, newer listeners to How to Money may
not realize how obsessed we were with investing in real
estate back in the day. True. Actually, when we were
batting around the initial ideas for a podcast, we thought
it might be focused only on real estate. How to
real Estate doesn't quite have the same ring as as
How the Money. Luckily we sumed out enough to cover
personal finance more broadly. But it's not that we are
(00:49):
not excited about rentals anymore, although the current state of
the economy maybe has changed our approach to which hopefully
we'll have some time to get to. But we've just
turned our efforts elsewhere. But our guest today, Ryan Shaw,
is most certainly all in all the real estate, which
is why we are stoked to have him join us today.
Ryan grew his net worth two one point five million
(01:10):
dollars at the age of twenty eight. He was able
to completely replace his pharmacist salary when he was thirty
one years old, and now man he's helping others to
do the same as a real estate investing coach, So
we're excited for him to share a story with listeners
today and perhaps to what listeners real estate investing appetites. So, Ryan,
(01:32):
thank you so much for joining us today on How
to Money.
Speaker 3 (01:34):
I appreciate it. Thanks for the invite, Matt.
Speaker 1 (01:36):
And Joel glad to have you Ryan. First question we
ask everyone who comes on though, is what do you
like to splurge on? Because obviously you're doing the smart stuff,
you're investing, growing your net worth, thinking about your future.
But what are you splurging on in the here and
now simultaneously? What's your craft for your equivalent?
Speaker 3 (01:50):
Yeah, it's definitely food. I'm a big foodie. I would
say we eat out at the Michelin star restaurants quite frequently,
especially when we go to visit like foreign countries like
Korea or Japan. We do try to book ahead for
those Michelin three star restaurants because those get booked out
(02:11):
like two months in advance, but we always have at
least week how Yeah, one experience for sure.
Speaker 2 (02:17):
All right, So the fact that you said the three
star restaurants, first of all, that's like a slight flex.
That's next level but then, like you're saying you're doing
this frequently, how often would you say that you are
showing up to any Mission Star restaurant.
Speaker 3 (02:31):
I think one year we probably went to ten or
twelve Michelin Star restaurants. It was a little bit.
Speaker 2 (02:37):
Okay, well right, well this is like a hard Yeah,
this is like a line I'm on Ryan's budget.
Speaker 1 (02:42):
Yeah, well we started before we start recording, Ryan, you
talk to us about the meal delivery that you use
called cook Unity, And at first glance you told me
that you basically all you have to do is heat
the food and it's pretty good, and so that's a
kind of a splurge, but in another way, it's not,
and it prevents you from meeting out more than you
(03:02):
otherwise would too.
Speaker 3 (03:03):
Right, yeah, yeah, exactly. So I have you know, date nights,
like once once a week or so, and then the
rest of the week. I use cook Unity because it's
a meal prep saves me a lot of time, you know,
driving to the restaurant, waiting forty minutes for our food
and driving back. It takes up a lot of my
time and I just you know, don't necessarily have that
(03:23):
time available to give, so I just you know enjoy
using the meal prep cook unity.
Speaker 2 (03:29):
All right, well, maybe folks can start doing co community
and Mission Star restaurants. Wants to start investing in real estate,
because evidently that's how you arrive there, Ryan, you didn't
start out doing real estate. You were a pharmacist, and
I think a lot of folks would consider that, like
that's a respectable job. You make a decent amount of money.
You've arrived. I think a lot of pharmacists once they
(03:50):
are able to finish school and start doing that. Why
did you start pursuing real estate investing when it seemed
like things were set for you from my career.
Speaker 3 (04:00):
Yeah, there's a couple reasons. The first is my grandpa
invested in real estate back in the fifties in the
San Francisco Bay area, and we all saw the houses
appreciated like crazy, rents went up, and he was not
only able to kind of retire early, but also able
to help cover part of my college tuition and that
of my brothers as well. So that's when I saw
(04:22):
that real estate is the best way to create generational wealth,
and so I wanted to get started as soon as possible.
The other reason why is because when I was working
in pharmacy. I would see these you know, fifty or
sixty year old pharmacists and I asked them like, Wow,
you've been here for so many years, right, what did
you like best about the job, And like several of
(04:43):
them told me the same thing. They're like, dude, I
would have quit a lot sooner, like a decade earlier,
if I could, but I have bills to pay. And
you know, they had that kind of attitude. I was like, man,
I don't want to be in my fifties and have
that attitude for something that I did for thirty years.
And I was like, man, I I want to pursue
something that I'm more passionate about that I can create
(05:03):
and build on my own. And that's what real estate
allowed me to do, is to kind of build my
own thing, to build my own empire. And so I
stumbled upon a really good strategy, which is renting by
the room, which actually increases obviously your rental income a
lot more than traditional real estate investing. And I just
(05:24):
kind of went off to the races. I bought one
property a year, poured all of my pharmacists salary into it,
and then I just continued on from there.
Speaker 2 (05:32):
All right, So I'm curious too.
Speaker 1 (05:34):
You had the example of your grandpa to look to, like, hey,
he did well with real estate. Look what he was
able to do. He was even able to pay for
my college and college for my siblings, or at least
part of.
Speaker 2 (05:44):
It, which is really cool.
Speaker 1 (05:45):
What was your goal when you're starting getting into real estate,
where you like, hey, I just want to be able
to grow my net worth more quickly, or I want
to retire early. Like, what was maybe the why behind
your real estate endeavors and why you ramped it up
so quickly.
Speaker 3 (05:59):
I would say financial freedom was ultimately the goal. At first,
it was a little bit hazy for me. I was
just getting started. I didn't know how to do anything.
I actually my grandpa was in the Bay Area, so
I couldn't like rely on him for constant advice or
anything like that. So I was pretty much on my
own when I started out, and I lost a lot
(06:20):
of money. But I guess, you know, when the times
got tough, I really looked to my grandpa for inspiration.
I was like, well, if I stick with it, I
could end up like my grandpa did, being able to
pay for future generations and never have to worry about money,
and so I was like, you know, I got to
keep at it. I lost over thirty thousand dollars, but
(06:41):
you know, I mean I could always make that back
working at my pharmacy job and working overtime, and so
I did. I worked a ton of overtime. I would
work like fourteen or fifteen hour days, double shifts because
I was working at the hospital, so I would get
in at seven thirty am and get out around eleven pm. Wow.
And so I did that for about two or three years,
(07:02):
just build up as much capital as possible, and eventually
I ended up creating kind of something that was self sustaining.
So every red toal that I purchased actually had cash flow,
so I was able to reinvest that cash flow to
buy the next one even faster. And then eventually, with
their appreciation and the cash flow, I was able to
buy multiple properties a year. So now I have fourteen
(07:25):
properties after doing this for about eight or nine years.
Speaker 1 (07:28):
So those three years working overtime, working your butt off
and saving up, So is that kind of your was
that your ability to roll the snowball uphill more quickly
so that once you got to the top and it
was going downhill, like you had more momentum. Yeah, because
a lot of people would say, I don't know, man,
that sounds really difficult to work fourteen to fifteen hour days,
(07:49):
you know, the way you were doing to amass a
big chunk of money so you could buy real estate,
and then so on top of the work, like you're
having to do the part time side hustle of investing,
of thinking through real estate and digging into the details
and finding out which properties are worth making offers on
and going to tour those homes. So it's not like
real estate's passive, like you're just tossing that money into
(08:11):
an SP five hundred index fund or something like that.
Speaker 2 (08:14):
That's a lot of work.
Speaker 3 (08:15):
It was a lot of hard work at the beginning.
I was very young though. I was twenty three at
the time, and when I started my pharmacist job, and
I just wanted to get at it, and I kind
of had I approached it with like do whatever it
takes mentality, you know, so when things came up, I
just pushed through it. And yes, it was tough, I
(08:36):
would say for the first two or three years, especially
because I was working all that overtime. But eventually, because
I built up my reputation as a really good student
housing provider, so I actually invest near college towns and
doing this rent by the room model. But because I
built up my reputation, I started getting a lot of referrals.
(08:57):
So every student that came in, they had a couple
of friends that were also interested in staying at my place.
So after about the second or third year, I didn't
really have to do my own marketing anymore. I basically
had students always refer others to me, or they would
stay for like one or two or three years, and
so it kind of was self propelling. I didn't have
(09:17):
to do any marketing. All I had to do was
manage the property and if like an appliance broke down
or a toilet's not working or something like this. But
those problems maybe came out once every two months on
average or three months on average, and I only had
like maybe three or four properties at that time, so
it actually wasn't as much work as I guess people
(09:38):
would think just having a few properties. Now, once I
got to fourteen properties, now I have you know, virtual
assistance and all of this, But at the beginning, it
was just me.
Speaker 2 (09:49):
Before and we're going to talk about that strategy because
it's something we've touched on the show recently. But to
be able to for you to really to be able
to unpack it, it's something that we want to do.
But before getting to that, I kind of met a
little bit because you talked about how I mean, you
said that you were doing whatever it took, right, like
you're working a ton of overtime. Do you see your
ability to get after it at a young age as
(10:12):
responsible for your ability to have saved up the money
to purchase these properties? And that leads me to I
guess another train of thought, which is do you think
that your higher education was sort of wasted time?
Speaker 3 (10:24):
Right?
Speaker 2 (10:24):
Like we talk about the declining value of college degrees
on the show from time to time. Do you think
that you would have been better served to become a
real estate investor straight out of high school or perhaps
that was the formative process that was necessary for you
to be able to get after it like you did
after graduating.
Speaker 3 (10:41):
Yeah, that's a very common question. If I were to
go back in time, would I do it the same? Yes,
one hundred percent. Actually, I really enjoyed my career as
a pharmacist. I enjoyed helping others providing that service, and
I think I really translated into providing services as a
landlord to really know how to deal with customers and
(11:03):
just that communication and pharmacists they kind of have a
system going on, and I had a lot of fun
kind of analyzing the system that the hospital had and
applying that kind of to real estate. That system based thinking,
having like a SOLP standard operating procedure for everything that
comes up in real estate. And so I created those
(11:24):
SOPs for my business and I found that it made
things a lot simpler. So definitely a lot of the
stuff I learned in pharmacy I actually did apply to
real estate at some point. And having that capital starting out,
I think is very important because real estate is very
capital intensive. But if you have the capital, you get
(11:47):
better interest rates, you get better loan terms. Having that
W two job I mean, and so I think it's
one of the best ways to get started is to
have that stable income so that you're you're not work
like let's say there's a three thousand dollars repair or
five thousand dollars repair you have to make at least
you have that income coming in to not worry about,
(12:09):
you know, coming out. I mean, obviously it sucks to
come out of pocket for that repair, but you know,
you also have the income to kind of stabilize yourself.
You know, there's no real estate takes over.
Speaker 1 (12:20):
Nother paycheck coming in two weeks as well. Right, So
there's all that that is from a conservative approach. You're
not like, you know, throwing the dice on the crab stable.
You have a methodical plan in place. I'm curious to.
So you said you invest in a college town, Let's
talk about the way in which you invest in real
estate because it is different. It's it's unique in a
(12:43):
lot of ways, and it does have potential benefits and
potential downsides. So why was renting individual rooms to college
students in your mind superior to other routes you could
have taken when it comes to getting into real estate investing.
Speaker 3 (12:57):
Yeah, So when I got started, I tested near my
alma mater college to other pharmacy students. So these are
people that I actually knew in school, and I was like, well,
why not rent out to you know, some friends or colleagues.
And so the very first one I bought in twenty sixteen,
I essentially rented to like healthcare professionals, so these were
(13:19):
pharmacy students. There was a pt students, dental students, and
so I found that this model makes a lot of
sense if you rent out to professionals, renting out to
people who are really studying hard to get that degree,
so you know, instead of throwing like wild house parties,
they're really focused on passing their mid terms and finals.
And even if you have one or two people who
(13:41):
are really focused on their studies, they kind of create
a culture of, hey, you can't have any house parties here.
I'm really focused on trying to get my doctorate. Right,
So I found that that market turned out to be
a really good market. I found that those turned out
to be really high quality students, especially if you invest
in our colleges that are you know, like IVY League
(14:01):
colleges for example. They don't have to be IVY League,
but I usually target top colleges that have a lot
of doctorate degrees healthcare degrees, engineering, MBA, law degrees. And
then I also found, like I mentioned earlier, that students
like to talk a lot, right, so work kind of
spreads like wildfire. If you turn out to be a
(14:22):
really great landlord and provide really good housing for students.
Like you'll get a ton of referrals just from that.
And like I said on my I would say around
year three it was kind of self propelling. I would
get so many referrals that I didn't have to do
my own marketing, and like one hundred percent of the
tennis that I got came from a referral at some point.
(14:43):
So yeah, that's where I started out, near my alma
mater college and it just kind of went from there.
Speaker 1 (14:49):
I just read a book about kind of some of
the crazy parties and stuff that happened at schools like
College of Charleston. So maybe don't invest in your College
of Charleston. I think you're picking the right school and
going after the right kinds of students, the right client
tele I guess to live in that house.
Speaker 3 (15:06):
Yes, yes, yeah, exactly.
Speaker 2 (15:08):
He said too. So I mean these are like, yeah,
like doctorates phdu students at the very least, students who
are getting their graduate degrees.
Speaker 3 (15:16):
Yep.
Speaker 2 (15:16):
How long did it take for you to save up
that initial down payment? Because it sounded like you graduated
you were a practicing pharmacist and then you were saving
up the cash in order to buy that first property.
Is that right?
Speaker 3 (15:26):
Yep, that's right. I had some money I put into
stocks when I was younger, but essentially I just worked
a lot of overtime that first year.
Speaker 2 (15:34):
Okay.
Speaker 3 (15:34):
I graduated in twenty fifteen, and then I put a
down payment in my first house. I think it was
October of twenty sixteen, okay, but back then it was
a two hundred and sixty two thousand dollars house in Stockton, California.
That's the first one that I bought.
Speaker 1 (15:48):
Okay, talk to us about maybe the overarching pros and
cons of the specific investing approach you take. So you
talk about trying to avoid the party house thing because
that would certainly have an impact on the wear and
tear right of the house, but also renting out by
the room means you have individual leases with a bunch
of different folks. How what Yeah, what is What are
(16:12):
the pros and cons? It sounds like this is potentially
more profitable as well, whereas if you're running it out
to a family or something like that versus running it
out by the room, you wouldn't be able to make
as much. So talk to us about like the Yeah,
the pros and cons there.
Speaker 3 (16:25):
Sure, the biggest pro course is the increased the amount of
cash flow, which allows you to really scale your portfolio.
So let's say I get the Let's say it starts
out as a three bedroom house. Usually I'll add two
or three bedrooms to make it a five bedroom or
six bedroom house. And if I rent it out to
six students and rent out about seven hundred dollars per
(16:47):
month per student, that's six times seven hundred is forty
two hundred dollars a month and rental income. And this
is on a house that you know, I bought for
like three hundred thousand or two hundred and fifty thousand
or something like that.
Speaker 1 (17:00):
Are you selling square footage or are you getting creative
with the square footage as it exists.
Speaker 3 (17:04):
I'm getting creative with the square footage as it exists exactly,
because I don't when I'm adding. If I add square footage,
that's obviously going to be a lot more expensive. I
have to, you know, go through a more rigorous permitting
process to add an addition to the house. But it's
much easier just to repurpose existing space. So let's say
there's a living room, family room, library room, office room, whatever.
(17:28):
Most of that I will turn into bedrooms and then just.
Speaker 2 (17:30):
Keep bedroom, bedroom, bedroom, exactly. Yeah, I'll go do that
Truman bathroom. That's all we need. Maybe a kitchen, yeah.
Speaker 3 (17:37):
Yeah, exactly. So what's cool about students is a lot
of times they're you know, studying, they're out of the house,
they're hanging out with their friends maybe, so they don't
need a whole lot of common space. Most of the
times they actually hang out in the rooms, maybe watch
Netflix or something like that. So I actually have houses
that do have a lot of common space, but they
don't even use that common space.
Speaker 2 (17:59):
So yeah, it's like wasted space, like for everybody. Yeah, basically,
it's obviously wasted for you. But I guess I hadn't
thought about that from the standpoint of just how our
culture has changed, and in some ways, like I almost
see that as like a negative, right, the fact that
folks are spending less time together. But what you're saying
is when it comes to students, I mean, some of
these students, I guess don't even really know each other,
and so they're probably keeping in this stuff that they're
(18:20):
fighting or anything. But maybe they're not like best buds,
where they're wunning that common space. Truly, all they're looking
for is somebody to keep the kitchen clean.
Speaker 3 (18:28):
Yeah, exactly. So they just you know, enjoy their own
private spaces. And it makes a lot of sense for
them because they're only paying six hundred or seven hundred
a month maybe versus on campus housing is charging over
one thousand a month and you have to live with
a roommate and you have to pay for a meal
plan and parking. And so what's good about the off
campus housing is it's like half the price of you know,
(18:50):
on campus housing. So for a lot of people it
makes sense, especially people who are trying to save money.
A lot of times these students have their parents paying,
and so the parent is not going to just stop
paying rent all of a sudden and risk their child
getting evicted from the place they're staying in college. And
what's cool is, again, like you guys were talking about,
(19:12):
I rent mainly to graduate students because campus housing provides
on campus housing for undergrads, but they don't provide enough
housing for graduate students. In fact, a lot of them
don't provide any housing for graduate students. Sometimes I call
up the university and I ask them, oh, what type
of grad housing do you have, and they'll say, like,
(19:33):
we don't have any available because we have so many
undergrads that they pushed out some of the grad students
for the housing. So that's when I realized, like, oh,
you know, this is a really big market because there's
like three thousand grad students and they don't have anywhere
else to stay but off campus. So those are some
of the pros.
Speaker 1 (19:52):
Yeah, so tell me real quick, then you buy, you buy.
Let's say it's just a three hundred thousand dollars house,
it's a three bedroom, two bath, what would that have
rented for? And then you turn it into a five
bedroom six hundred bucks a pop. You're making three grand
a month. What did it have rented for? And then
what do you get?
Speaker 3 (20:09):
Yeah, so the typical rent rates around like Stockton, California.
It started out around fifteen hundred a month I would
say for a three bed, two bath, but it went
up to around two twenty one hundred or so. But
if I rented out to six people at seven hundred
dollars a month, the rental income is more like forty
two hundred a month. My largest house I rent how
(20:31):
for about six fifty per bedroom in Cleveland, Ohio, And
it's a ten bedroom house that I bought for three
hundred and sixty seven thousand, and I rented out for
six thousand, five hundred and fifty dollars a month, and
the mortgage payment was around twenty three to fifty or
twenty four hundred a month, So it was about four thousand.
Speaker 2 (20:49):
A month for as a keeper, you know right there?
Speaker 3 (20:53):
Mortgage Yeah, yeah, yeahly kayh sure.
Speaker 2 (20:55):
Well awesome. So you're getting at a couple of things
that we want to talk to you more about. You're
talking about kind of different locations. We're going to get
to that and more specifically too, I guess some of
the other ways that you are figuring out whether or
not these properties are going to work for you moving forward.
We get to all that and more right after this.
Speaker 1 (21:18):
All right, we're back from the break, still talking about
real estate investing with Ryan Shaw and how Hey, you
can make more money as a real estate investor than
you can as a pharmacist if you play your cards
right and you work your butt off. So Ryan, I
love just kind of the way that you found a
specific model of real estate investing, and you replicated it
in order to increase your revenue and decrease some of
(21:42):
the downside too. I'm curious how do you vet properties
because every every investor has different metrics they want to hit.
What is it that you're looking for?
Speaker 3 (21:51):
What?
Speaker 1 (21:51):
Yeah, what do you need to see in a listing
to make you to pequk your interest?
Speaker 3 (21:55):
Yeah, I definitely have a very specific buybox. So for students,
so you have to think about for any real estate, right,
you have to think about who is your target client,
who is your client avatar, and what are they looking for?
So for college students or grad students, they're typically looking
for how close am I to the school? Because if
(22:16):
they're waking up for their eight am classes, they want
to be as close as possible. So I try to
buy within a walking distance to campus if possible, or
if it's more of a commuter college where you have
to drive to campus than usually within a five minute
driving distance. Now, a lot of things I do for
students include providing transportation for them. So I might actually
(22:38):
purchase an electric scooter. Haven't signed a liability waiver and stuff,
but I might purchase an electric scooter for them to
use free of charge to get to campus. So that's
the number one thing is location and proximity to campus.
Number two is safety. So if you are a parent
of one of these students and you're driving around from
(22:59):
your house to the school, are you passing through any
unsafe areas? Do you see a lot of homeless, a
lot of maybe gang members or something like that, Because
then the parent, if the parent feels unsafe having their
kid there, obviously the kid's probably not going to live there,
and obviously the kids don't want to be held up
at endpoint or anything like that. So buying in a
(23:19):
safe neighborhood is super important. And then affordability. So these
students they're looking for trying to save some money, and
you know, maybe they want more money for groceries and
food and hanging out and so they will you know,
stay off campus to save money as well. So you
do have to make sure your pricing is very reasonable
(23:39):
for the area, and that requires doing like market research,
talking to students, seeing what their budgets are typically around
that area, so that you're not overcharging, because even if
you're like twenty dollars above their budget, they will just
write you off, like if their budget is seven hundred
dollars flat or less and your place is seven twenty.
(24:00):
They're going to go like, oh, that's above my budget,
and they're not going to look, you know, look at
second look at your place. So you really have to
get the pricing right. And then the last thing is community.
So students want to stay with other students or maybe
healthcare professionals like medical interns, medical residents, and medical fellows.
So I market myself as exclusively for students and medical
(24:24):
workers or healthcare professionals. And because you know, I'm trying
to keep a certain culture at the house and students
may not be comfortable let's say living with a family
of five or something like that. It just feels a
little bit uncomfortable for them. So yeah, I typically just
target students.
Speaker 1 (24:43):
Are you paying for the utilities and or are you
essentially taking the utility amount, subdividing it and sending everyone
a bill at the end of the month, because you know,
some people might be taking those long hot showers and
other people might be might not be. Ye, how do
you do the utility thing?
Speaker 3 (24:58):
Yeah, the fairest way to do that is, like you said,
add them all up and subdivide them equally among the tenants.
The only utility technically that I pay for is the landscaping,
which is not really a utility. But yeah, everything else,
the electric, gas, water, garbage, sewage, the students cover.
Speaker 2 (25:17):
Do you lean towards newer constructions versus older houses, because
I've heard you talk about some of the massive problems
you had with the first house that you purchased, problems
that would sink most investors talk about that. I guess,
like I hear you talk about this ten bedroom house
in Ohio. Huh do they make houses that big these days?
(25:37):
It sounds kind of like this old mansion they do.
If you recommand hear all the other rooms.
Speaker 3 (25:41):
Yeah, it's kind of like an old mansion.
Speaker 2 (25:43):
Used to be a library. Yeah. Now this is three
bedrooms that I fit in here. Yeah, I guess talk
about newer versus older properties.
Speaker 3 (25:50):
Yeah, older properties definitely tend to have more problems with them.
It could be the plumbing, the electricals, it could be
like the roof or the HVAC. So well, typically, what
I do is I just do more due diligence before
I purchase a property, whereas most people might just get
a typical home inspection I might add on inspections, like
(26:11):
I'll have an HVACT technician go in there to see
how old the HVACT is and if it's in proper
order or if it's going to die in a couple years.
I get a breofer. Sometimes I get a plumber and
electrician to check out the plumbing and electricals, and I'll
get a sewage inspection as well, especially for older houses
(26:31):
if it's built before the nineteen eighties, usually it's using
cast iron piping, and cast iron can brust and have
roots stick in to them. So I've had to replace
several sewage lines before, which can cost like nine thousand
dollars a piece potentially. So I learned my lesson, and
what I do is I do extra inspections during the
(26:53):
due diligence phase so that I can tell the seller, Hey,
this is what it's estimated the cost to replace the
sewage line that currently has a bunch of roots sticking
into it. Can you cover that cost? Because you know,
I'm not going to buy the place if it's not
in a decent enough condition. So a lot of that
I negotiate, and I mean I've gotten houses for like
(27:15):
one of them, I got for eighty three thousand dollars
under asking price. I've had up to fifteen thousand or
twenty thousand of seller credit before. And it's just all
about doing your due diligence and so that you can
negotiate with the seller. And it's always okay to walk
away from a deal. That's the first lesson I learned
from my realtor. That's the first thing he told me,
is like, don't feel like you have to be attached
(27:38):
to a deal, you know, don't feel like you have
to buy this deal. You can always walk away if
the seller doesn't want to work with you. And having
that mentality allowed me to basically be in a better
negotiating position for a lot of these deals that I purchase.
So you know, I might have a give me fifteen
thousand dollars to replace the HVAC, you know, and I
(27:59):
can just replace it right after I close on the property,
and that way I have a brand new HVACT I
don't have to worry for the next thirty years. And
you know, same thing for roofing, electrical as plumbing, I
will get credit put towards that if it's in bad shape.
Speaker 1 (28:13):
Yeah, the most important elements of the house. I'm curious
if someone is listening and they're like, wow, what Ryan's doing.
This makes no sense going directly for the single, you know,
running out by the room to graduate students, and it
sounds like the cash flow is pretty sweet if you.
Speaker 2 (28:30):
Use this model.
Speaker 1 (28:31):
Do you think that other people should follow your specific
route to real estate investing success or is it important
for them to find their own niche I'm curious what
you think about that.
Speaker 3 (28:42):
I think this strategy is one of the best out there,
hands down. Like it's very hard to do traditional real
estate investing where you buy a house and then you
rent it out to a family and be able to
make cash flow. For this method, if you're making you know,
seven hundred times six bedrooms forty two hundred dollars a month,
it's it's kind of harder to like not make cash
(29:04):
flow using it, right, And that's why I think it's
one of the best places for people to get started,
because you really do need that cash flow at the
beginning so that you can continue to reinvest. You don't
have to come out of pocket for expenses. You know,
let's say your roof needs to be replaced, Well, that's
like fifteen thousand dollars or like, you know, twelve thousand
(29:26):
to fifteen thousand dollars. And so if you're only making
one hundred dollars a month in cash flow, basically the
next fifteen years of cash flow is going to be
wiped out by one roof replacement. Versus if you're making
let's say fifteen hundred a month in cash flow by
doing the student housing model, well you're gonna after what
(29:46):
ten months, you'll be able to replace a roof if
you wanted to with the cash flow, and you know,
not every year the roof breaks down obviously, so you're
going to be a lot more profitable. So I think
for that reas it's one of the best ways to
get started. It's not as complicated as like doing Airbnb
and having to provide all that service, having to text
(30:09):
back and forth between all the tenants all the time.
So I think it's like a lot less time investment
to get started and a lot more return. But if
that being said, everyone has their own, you know, passions.
So if you like to flip and you feel drawn
towards flipping, then yes, find a mentor who's really good
at flipping, and you know, get in touch with them
(30:31):
and maybe have them teach you through one of your
first flips. But everyone's a little bit different and so
obviously one size doesn't fit all.
Speaker 2 (30:41):
Yeah, that makes sense. I feel like what you're doing
it's somewhere in between airbnb versus renting long term do
a single family because it's not like you're every three
days you're having to get a new tenant in there.
That's it does take a whole lot more work to
do that. But like you said, if you've got six
tenants in a house, that's five more than I've got
who I'm having to deal with. But at the same time,
(31:03):
you've got more money coming in, so there's more work involved,
but there's also certainly more more cash flow, which is
what you're talking about here. And you actually you just
shared the example of like a roof replacement. You have
you had any issues with especially I'm curious too, with
you being out in California the insurers and what it
is that they're willing to take to take on a
lot of insurers showing up at properties and inspecting and saying, hey,
(31:27):
you got to get this repaired. How have you factored
that into your overall business model.
Speaker 3 (31:32):
You know, I was kind of lucky. I purchase like
five technically six properties in California before State Farm decided
to not ensure any houses in California anymore. And so
what's nice is California, I guess, or for State Farm
at least they kept their legacy clients. So I got
locked in luckily to that home insurer. But yeah, it's
(31:55):
definitely an issue if the house is in poor condition.
So for example, there's something called knob in tube electricals,
and if the house has like knob in two, there's
a lot of insurance who don't want to ensure that
because of potential fire hazard with that type of electrical
So a lot of times, you know, you could negotiate
with the seller to replace it or replace some of it,
(32:17):
or you know, a good amount of it, or you
can find a mature who eventually does it, but you
might have to pay more. Typically for I would say
yearly insurance costs, it could range from twelve hundred to
twenty four hundred per year. But yeah, I think nowadays
it's a little bit harder to find somebody. But once
you find a good insurer who will cover all that stuff,
(32:39):
then you just use the same one for every one
of your houses.
Speaker 1 (32:43):
Yeah, a little less competition in California, specifically on the
home insurance market. Sadly, I'm curious too about tenants. You've
talked about this. This seems to be a lynchpin of
your investing model is catering to the right tenant, the
tenant you want who's going to take care of your property.
You have something called the prime method, right, And this
(33:04):
is something also, by the way, that Matt and I
have talked about many times. That is the thing, sadly
that many landlords pay the least amount of attention to
is the tenant that they pick. They don't go through
all the proper vetting requirements to find a person who
is going to take care of their property and who
is qualified to rent the property. So what's the prime
method and why is that so important?
Speaker 3 (33:26):
Oh? Yeah, So the prime method is for basically a
method I use to find really high quality tenants. So
first I figure out, okay, who's my tenant avatar, right,
who's my perfect tenant? And then I try to figure out, okay,
where does that tenant hang out? So P stands for
placement of advertisements or you know, basically where you're placing
(33:47):
your ads. So if I'm like marketing to college students,
I will want to maybe post on and you don't
have to do this, but you know, you could post
on campus bulletin boards. The most common method I use
is getting out too these Facebook housing groups. There's a
specificly a lot of off campus Facebook housing groups for
(34:08):
student housing, so I will post there. I will go
on like roomies dot com. Obviously there's like Craigslist. There's
something called u loop, which is university Loop. It basically
is a site specifically for university housing. And so I
will just get onto all these student affiliated sites and
(34:29):
student housing sites so that I specifically can find students
our stands for reviewing social media. So like for Facebook
housing groups, somebody contacts me through Facebook, I can quickly
click into their profile and see are they like partying
all the time, you know, drinking alcohol and drugs and
stuff like that, or are they you know, somebody who's
(34:52):
more serious about their studies. Maybe they're pursuing a doctorate
or something like that.
Speaker 1 (34:56):
So if you see keg stands, you stop that conversation immediately.
Speaker 3 (34:59):
Yeah, exactly, So, yeah, I really pay attention to that stuff,
and once you get one good quality tenant in there,
typically they also have really high quality, you know, tenant
friends that they can bring in. Like let's say I
bring in a pharmacy student, and then they bring in
their group of five pharmacy friends. You know, it just
(35:19):
turns out to be a much better culture. I stands
for identifying what type of tenant are they? So when
you talk with them through email or phone, are they
very needy? Are they like asking for a lot of things,
or they kind of act a little bit entitled? You know,
I try to avoid that type of tenant who's like
very needy. Let's see M stands for measuring responsiveness. So
(35:44):
the more responsive they are, like if they're getting their
paperwork back to you really quickly, I find that they're
you know, those types of tenants are a lot more
responsible as well. So kind of figure out, okay, are
they responsive and getting everything back to me really quickly?
And then E stands for ensuring proof of income. So
(36:05):
I always check the proof of income to make sure
that they're able to pay the rent. Usually I want
three times the rent coming in as income. So let's
say they're paying seven hundred a month, I want to
see at least twenty one hundred dollars a month coming
in from usually one of the parents, or if the
student has a financial aid or a stipend or student loans.
(36:25):
They have multiple ways to pay the rent, and usually
I invest in universities or nearby universities where the student's
paying like twenty thousand or forty thousand dollars intuition, So
to pay seven thousand dollars in rent, you know, if
they have the means to pay forty thousand dollars intuition
a year, they have the means to usually pay seven
thousand dollars in rent a year.
Speaker 2 (36:46):
Very cool you. So you talked about how originally you
were purchasing in Stockton, California. Sounds like a pleasant, nice
place to live, but then you also mentioned Ohio. Talk
about the logistic challenges of investing in different parts of
the country because like a lot of what you're able
to capitalize on when you're purchasing properties in the same
(37:08):
town or same neighborhood are it's the scale that you're
able to achieve and the ability to line up a oh,
I've got this great plumber by the way, swing by
this house as well, do this exactly, or you pay
for long care exterior maintenance. I'm sure you've seen the
advantage there. Talk about lining up contractors and some of
the other logistical challenges when you are purchasing in separate
(37:30):
cities and separate states.
Speaker 3 (37:32):
Oh yeah, definitely. So you know, I say that I
felt very lonely when I got started in real estate investing,
and I felt like I was on my own. But
the truth is in real estate you're never on your
own because you always have a team, or you start
building up a team. And what I recommend is to
kind of like what I do is I have an
Excel list of all the contractors that are you know,
(37:54):
I vetted, I found that they're trustworthy, and I have
one for every profession. So I'll have like one or
two actually for every profession because you want to have backups.
So for example, like plumbing, I will have like two
contractors for plumbing, or two plumbers. I'll have two four electricians,
I will have two roofers. I will have two people
(38:15):
who are great at HVAC. I'll have like two people
who are good at sewage line replacements and so on
and so forth. And basically, once you create that list.
If something happens to your property, like there's a backup,
all you have to do is call plumber number one
or plumber number two. They'll go over to the house.
(38:35):
You know, you might give them the lock box code.
Maybe it's a temporary code to get in if you
don't trust them, but usually eventually I end up trusting
these plumbers and electricians and then they'll go in.
Speaker 2 (38:45):
Basically, then are you doing this across all the different
cities and states that you are looking to invest in.
Speaker 3 (38:50):
It's just yes, I do. So that's why it's so
important to really scale up in one market at a time.
So the first market for me California, I scaled up
to six properties and then I sold my first one,
and then I bought eight in Ohio, eight student rentals
in Ohio, and then I scaled up there. I'm sorry, yeah,
(39:11):
I bought one at first obviously, and then I scaled
to eight. So basically, you want to be in a
one or two or maybe three cities. But the reason
thing is because every time you started in a new city,
you've got to build another team, right, But once you
build up that team, it becomes self sustaining because like
as you said, you know that plumber. He can swing
(39:31):
by all your houses and check for all the plumbing
problems that fix.
Speaker 1 (39:35):
So you talked about, Hey, I started off as a pharmacist.
I'm working extra. I'm building up the bank roll to
have the down payment to buy these initial properties starting
at one a year. So you started using your own
money to build that rental portfolio. But now I think
I've heard you say that you're using capital. You're raising
capital to grow your real estate holdings faster. Yeah, what
(39:57):
are the pros and cons of raising capital? How you
doing that?
Speaker 2 (40:00):
And what's that look like?
Speaker 3 (40:02):
Yeah, first off, it wasn't until like year seven or
something where I was like, oh, you know, I have
some family members who they know what I'm doing, because
you know, family members can be nosy, and they're like, hey,
can I get in on this. I'm like maybe. So
I've raised I think about two hundred thousand or something
(40:23):
from family members, not one hundred percent necessary again, but
you know, when I first started again, I bought like
maybe seven before I actually got on my first investor.
But I guess like once you start building a reputation,
I guess people start noticing and then a lot of
times they want to invest with you, and if you
(40:44):
trust them, you can go ahead and make a deal
with them. A lot of my deals, though, are structured
as debt deals. I never really want to give out equity.
I prefer to do debt because there's a lot of
more legal ramifications if you offer equity in your property
to investors. In fact, there's like the SEC that gets involved.
(41:05):
You have to do something called like a PPM private memorandum,
private something memorandum, and so it just it's a lot
more complicated, and like a PPM, it costs like like
five thousand and seven dollars or no, actually I think
it's like ten thousand to fifteen thousand, sorry to do. So, yeah,
usually it's better to do debt. And so what I
(41:26):
do is, I'll, you know, borrow let's say fifty thousand
dollars from a family member and it's a minimum of
fifty thousand, and it's a twelve percent return. So basically
they send the fifty thousand and then they get five
hundred dollars a month from a debt payment, and it's
just interest, not equity. Again, So and then I'll do
(41:47):
like a five year loan term or something like that.
And at the end of the five years, like a
year before, like a year four or something like that,
I'll ask them, Hey, do you want to extend that
loan or you want your fifty thousand dollars back? And so,
you know, I need some time ahead of time to
let's say I save up a couple months worth of
cash flow to pay it back if they want to,
(42:07):
you know, get out of the deal. But a lot
of times, you know, once somebody is seeing that return
for like five years, they're like, Oh, might as well
keep it in there, unless I'm really desperate, you know.
Speaker 2 (42:17):
So we don't often advise folks to take money from
family members. It feels like it can be something that
could lead to hurt relationships issues, maybe at Thanksgiving. What
are you outlining when you enter into some of these
agreements with your family members, Like, it sounds like you
are outlining some very clear terms. It sounds like you've
(42:38):
got good communication. What are some other highlights or specific
points that you're making sure to include.
Speaker 3 (42:44):
Yeah, you definitely need a written agreement. Some people are like, oh,
it's family, you know, maybe you just do it verbal.
Absolutely not. You definitely have to have a contract written.
It should be written by an attorney, and the attorney
will be able to kind of give everyone, tell everyone
what's going to look like and what are some things
(43:05):
to look out for. Like let's say I don't know,
maybe the investor passes away. What happens to that mode, right,
What happens is the operators pass away. Right. So those
are awesome things you really have to think through when
you do the loan. But typically if you do more
of like a loan versus your investing in equity, it's
(43:27):
just a lot simpler because it's just like you get
a twelve percent rate for five years, you're not allowed
to take out that fifty thousand before to five years ends.
And you know, those are the biggest two terms that
you need to know, and so it's pretty easy to
explain to people, and you do have to be very
clear upfront that this is what it's going to look like. Like.
(43:47):
You can't just, you know, emergency take out that fifty
thousand if you want your fifty thousand dollars back. Basically
you would have to find a replacement on the loan,
so somebody else to put in fifty thousand in order
for you to take out your fifty thousand.
Speaker 1 (44:00):
Yeah, it's it's not a very liquid investment. They have
to know that upfront.
Speaker 3 (44:04):
Yes, exactly, that's the most important thing I would say.
But yeah, I mean I don't really see. I mean,
other than those things you have to think about, you know,
I enjoy doing business with family because the way I
see it as like we're also building their wealth too,
because they are making a very good return, better than
(44:24):
the stock market, and so it's like we're building not
just our wealth with the family wealth. And I was like,
you know, once I kind of reframed it that way,
I felt like more comfortable with it. Obviously, never do
business with somebody don't like one hundred percent trust. But
I grew up with these family. I'm very close with
my family, and I grew up with them and everything.
(44:45):
So I feel, you know, comfortable taking on an investment
from family.
Speaker 2 (44:50):
Yeah. Very cool.
Speaker 1 (44:51):
We've got a few more questions to get to with you, Ryan,
including how how does what's happening in the macro economic
the overall real estate market and the shifts there, how
does that change how you think about investing. We'll get
to that and more right after this.
Speaker 2 (45:13):
We are back from the break talking about investing in
real estate with Ryan Chaw, specifically student housing. I think
it's a it's the strategy we haven't really talked too
much about here on the show. But Ryan, are you
planning to continue to expand your overall portfolio, your your
personal empire?
Speaker 3 (45:31):
Sure?
Speaker 2 (45:31):
Because I mean now like you're financially independent now. You
talked about how you were wanting that financial freedom, Like
that's how it is that you got into it. Have
your ambitions grown? Are you wanting more Michelin Star meals?
Like not just once a month? Maybe it's like every night?
How about it like once a week? Baby?
Speaker 3 (45:48):
I think I would get really fat if I did
once a week. Those meals are like three thousand calories.
But yeah, I mean for me, I always want to grow.
I don't see why not, right, I always I like
the child, for one thing, And I don't feel comfortable
just sitting on a beach sipping Margarita's, you know. So
I would say I'm always definitely wanting to grow. And
(46:10):
a portion of the cash flow that I'm making I
will obviously use to cover all my expenses, but everything
else if I'm not using it or bookmarking it for
vacation or you know, a missilin Star restaurant, then I
will reinvest it because why not, right? And so I
still still stick to buying at least one property a year,
(46:31):
and I hope to eventually someday get to like one
hundred properties. We'll see. You just have to have a
really good team with that. And so one of my
biggest focuses right now with the scaling is just training
my team. I meet with them every week, and you
don't necessarily have to do that, but I have a
full time VA, I have a twenty hour week via
(46:52):
as well, and I have a bookkeeper. So, you know,
just investing in them so that I can continue to
scale has been my phone.
Speaker 1 (47:00):
How how do you like the macroeconomic realities that are
happening when it comes to supply in the housing market, prices,
interest rates, How does that impact the offers you're making
in your likelihood to because because also if you were
like I'm going to get I'm going to buy a
house every year no matter what. Well, what if it's
a year where deals are harder to find and I
(47:22):
don't know, maybe maybe you say I'll maybe I'll hold
off for now? Do two next year. I don't know,
how are you thinking about growth when it's become harder
to find great deals.
Speaker 3 (47:30):
Yeah, So, first off, the first rule I learned in
real estate has never try to time the market. Like
I know, there are definitely bad times in real estate,
right but like two thousand and eight obviously, But what
you want to do is actually double down when nobody
else is buying, because in many ways, because a lot
of buyers are scared away, they're like, oh, interest rates
(47:51):
are so high, I don't feel like I really want
to buy a house, And so the sellers who are
trying to get rid of the house they have nobody
to sell to. So you have a law more negotiating power,
and you could get a very significant discount on a property.
And then let's say, you know, interest rates are high now,
but in like two or three years, maybe five years, whatever,
interest rates will eventually drop because they always do it
(48:13):
cyclical with the depth cycle that you know occurs, and
eventually that seven percent interest rate will be like five
percent maybe, and you can then refinance all of your
properties and save Not only you get a discount on
the property, but you also, you know, get that ability
to refinance, so you kind of get the best of
(48:34):
both worlds if you buy now, for instance. But what
I would say is like, if you look back in
time and you look at like where prices were back then,
almost always are like, oh yeah, you got it for
a really good deal. It's so so cheap. But you know,
back then in the moment, it felt like that house
was very expensive because of where wages were, et cetera.
(48:57):
So with inflation, basically what happens is the dept in
real estate gets the inflation roads away at the depth
it gets. It makes the depth cheaper and cheaper every
single year. So by that logic, basically they say the
best time to buy is now. Are technically the best
time to dubuy was ten years ago. Sorry, but the
(49:18):
second best time is now. And that's always going to
be true in real estate because real estate prices always
appreciate over time, and with how inflation works, it basically
just it rolls away at that depth and creates more
cash flow for you.
Speaker 1 (49:35):
Yeah, I think that's part of the Those are two
strong appeals for real estate investing. Is, hey, the inflation
is actually going to make your debt look less bad
over the years, and the price appreciation is kind of
happens like clockwork with the with the random exception of
the Great Recession, things like two thousand and eight. Ryan,
Thank you so much for joining us today on the podcast.
(49:57):
Where can our listeners find out more about you and
your investing advice?
Speaker 3 (50:02):
Yeah, so I do provide coaching for getting started and
this method because it led to financial freedom for me,
and I'm just so passionate about like helping others with
doing this because it's been so powerful for me. And
so if you want to reach out, you can go
to www. Dot Newbie real Estate Investing dot com slash
guide and you just sign up your email there and
(50:25):
it'll give you a free pdf on how to get
started and student housing, how to get started in real
estate in general, and a lot of the tips and
mistakes that I made so that you can learn from them.
You also get on my newsletter list where I also
provide like random real estate tips and help or getting started.
Speaker 2 (50:45):
Very cool.
Speaker 1 (50:46):
Ran, We appreciate you man, thanks for joining us today.
Speaker 3 (50:48):
Thanks again.
Speaker 2 (50:50):
Well, all right, Jill, nice little enlightening conversation with our
guest today, Ryan Shaw talking about student housing specifically.
Speaker 1 (50:59):
I love how real estate investing doesn't have to be
a one size fits all thing. Uh, and Ryan shows that, Hey,
I found my niche inside of this thing called real
estate investing and he's doing.
Speaker 2 (51:11):
Well with it. Yeah, So what's your big takeaway?
Speaker 1 (51:13):
So my big takeaway was when he was talking about
all of the inspections he does before he buys a home,
pretty dang thorough, very thorough, and doing your due diligence
before making an investment is crucial. The same when we
were talking about high standards for tenants. Both of those
things combined made me think, oh, Ryan's not just seeing
(51:35):
the dollar signs. And then he's like yeah, and going forward,
he said, now I see the dollar signs, but I
want to make sure that I'm taking an approach that
ensures that those dollars are actually going to come into
my pocket. And then I'm not going to be spending
them needlessly on improvements to the house because I didn't
think ahead. So I love, Yeah, with just the forethought
(51:56):
he's bringing into the investments.
Speaker 2 (51:57):
So he's making the thoroughness and it's not wasting money,
because it sounds like in a lot of cases, if
there's some bad news that comes up, he's able just
to take that and negotiate that that price now, which
it's like a no brainer to if you are looking
at buying something to have some of these specialized inspections
done really smart. But my big takeaway is going to
be just this approach broadly speaking, Like though, as he
(52:18):
was talking through some of these houses and how he's like, oh, no, no, no,
it was a three bedroom, now it's a six bedroom.
And how he's just used some of these other bed No, no,
they're not bedrooms, but they are now. And it made
me think through, oh, what properties do I have near universities?
Is there a way to convert this more into student housing?
It seems like such a low piece of hanging fruit
gel and like, obviously, why would you at least not
(52:40):
consider that if that's something that if real estate a
is something you're interested in, but b if that's something
you already have, I think there's a way to even
shift your strategy when it comes to a certain property.
So I think this could be just a good takeaway
not for new real estate investors, but also for folks
out there like us. You already have properties, yeah, to
think about converting them.
Speaker 1 (52:59):
And really, what he's talking about there is forced appreciation,
because what everybody else sees what the mlscs and anybody
who looks and doesn't dig a level deeper, they see
a three two and this would get me roughly this amount,
and he says no, no, no no. With some drywall and
uh and in a couple days worth of work, I
can throw a couple.
Speaker 2 (53:16):
Up Extrafore it's like something even I could do. Yeah,
maybe don't skimp on the rock woll So the sound.
Speaker 1 (53:23):
And acoustic it's amazing when somebody else sees he sees
something a little bit extra, He's like, well, how big
of those common rooms? And how could I kind of
siphon off another bedroom or two from this?
Speaker 2 (53:34):
Uh?
Speaker 1 (53:34):
And sounds like it's it's working out well for him.
Speaker 2 (53:37):
Yeah, And so I wanted to mention that because so
last week when we talked with Nick, and that was
essentially one of his quote unquote hacks, was the fact
that he got a property where he was living in
the basement.
Speaker 3 (53:46):
Right.
Speaker 2 (53:47):
But it seemed like that in my mind, didn't seem
quite as replicable because it's kind of like, oh, here's
a diamond in the rough. They just had this thing
categorized incorrectly. He just happened to be the one that
found it. This is the way that you're able to
essentially do that, possibly on repeat, as long as you
have the kind of tenants who are looking to move
into a house like that, specifically around a university for sure.
So I like that.
Speaker 3 (54:06):
All right?
Speaker 1 (54:07):
What was your take on the beer we have? This
one's called Hell or High Twilight. You're used to probably
the Hell or High Water Island, No, yeah, twenty first
Amendment brewery.
Speaker 2 (54:15):
But I found this.
Speaker 1 (54:15):
This is just a citrus wheat ale from a classic
old brewery.
Speaker 2 (54:19):
What are your thoughts? Very citrusy, It's like so good,
I would say a drink really get clean. It wasn't
like overly complex, it wasn't overly nuanced, but it had
a nice like citrus flavor going on. It's a citrus,
citrusy wheat I would say high specifically in orange citrus.
Oh yeah, and light.
Speaker 1 (54:37):
I can almost have like a little scuret of orange
juice in yes, yeah, yeah exactly. So yeah, nothing nothing
overly insane about this craft beer. But also with the
warm weather firmly in hand now, it's kind of nice
to have a light, refreshing citrus wheat beer. I think
it's suitable for these summer months.
Speaker 2 (54:54):
What are so like a more macro widely available version
of this would be like a shock top or is
this Yeah, probably does. I would say that if you're
into this, is.
Speaker 1 (55:04):
This beer has been around a long time, or this brewery,
So I would imagine a lot of people can find
this anything something by twenty first Amendment.
Speaker 2 (55:09):
With yeah, that's what I was gonna say, just I
would point people in this direction as opposed to some
of those more like even more widely available, inferior versions
of this particular beer. I really yeah, I really dug.
Speaker 1 (55:21):
This need to all right, that's gonna do it for
this episode, Matt, we will, of course link to some
of the resources Ryan mentioned up on our website at
howtomoney dot com. You know it, don't forget to sign
up for that how many newsletter while you're there. That's
gonna do it, though, Matt. Until next time, Best Friends Out,
Best Friends Out.
Hosts And Creators
Joel Larsgaard
Matthew Altmix
Popular Podcasts
On Purpose with Jay Shetty
I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Special Summer Offer: Exclusively on Apple Podcasts, try our Dateline Premium subscription completely free for one month! With Dateline Premium, you get every episode ad-free plus exclusive bonus content.
24/7 News: The Latest
The latest news in 4 minutes updated every hour, every day.