Practical AND Beautiful Investing Advice w/ Callie Cox #983

What it means to have a practical and beautiful portfolio. How recent policy decisions have roiled the stock market. Right-sizing your risk tolerance… These are just a few of the topics we discuss with our guest Callie Cox who is a part of the Ritholtz Wealth Management team. She is also the author of OptimistiCallie, her newsletter where she seeks to deliver sane and rational advice to everyday investors, just like us (don’t think we’re completely immune to these turbulent times)! Callie works to make investors feel confident about their investments and informed about the money decisions that they’re making – we think that’ll be you after listening to this episode!

 

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
Welcome to How to Money. I'm Joel, I'm Matt and
today we're talking practical and beautiful investing advice with Callie Cox.

Speaker 2 (00:26):
Yeah, so it is time to dive in deep on
investing during turbulent times. Joel, and we are fortunate to
be speaking with Callie Cox, who is a part of
the Ritholtz Wealth management team. Before that, we met her
back in the day when she was with Ally invest
E Toro. After that, and now she's also the author
of Optimistic Cali, her newsletter where she seeks to deliver

(00:48):
sane and rational advice to every day investors just like us,
just like you and me.

Speaker 1 (00:53):
Man.

Speaker 2 (00:54):
She works tirelessly day and day out to make investors
feel confident and informed about their money. And we've got
a lot to talk about when it comes to investing.
Folks don't realize that investing like it seems like all
we talk about, but not to the level at which
we're going to talk about it today. We're gonna, I
don't know, We're really gonna get into it with you.
And I'm excited for this conversation.

Speaker 3 (01:12):
Yeah, I'm psyched too. Thanks for having me.

Speaker 1 (01:14):
Of course. Yeah, you you eat breathe and sleep it.
We I don't know, we think about a lot more
than just investing, but so were you're curious to pick
your brain because we're in interesting times right now. First though,
we have to ask you what your craft beer equivalent is.
What do you explore John, even though obviously you're investing
solidly for your future.

Speaker 3 (01:31):
Well, I told y'all, and so the audience knows. I've
thought a lot about this, But I my husband and
I spent a lot of money on food and wine,
which is a pretty typical answer. I feel like you
get a lot of foodies. But you know, with us,
we became obsessed with wine after we went to NAPA
in twenty twenty one. Of course, during the pandemic, a
lot of us had nothing better to do than drink

(01:52):
us So as y'all probably leaned more into bore that out. Yeah, yeah, yeah,
it's true. It's true. As you guys lean more into beer,
we leaned more into wine, and after NAPA we were hooked.
So we're not we're not serious wine collectors, but we
do like exploring different wines and we love just you know,
eating out and you know, exploring all the different restaurants

(02:14):
in Charlotte, and I love to cook. I really like
getting quality product and you know, cooking at home too,
So I feel like that's our niche. You know, where
we lean in when we're leaning out on other things
like cars. I drive a nine year old camera. It's
not there are areas that we lean into, areas we
lean out music.

Speaker 1 (02:34):
I love it. I will say the wine habit too.
While it can be very expensive similar to graft beer,
it's not as bad if you're drinking it at home
and you're making your own food, right, I mean, if
you're going out, the markup on bottles when you visit
a nice restaurant is significant. So yeah, drinking that bottle
at home is going to save you money.

Speaker 3 (02:52):
Yeah, that's absolutely true. There even and I know this
differs from state to state, but they're even bring your
own beverage restaurants, bring your own wine restaurants. And we
have a few good shops in Charlotte where you can
go and buy wine at retail and they'll serve it
with you, serve it to you with your dinner.

Speaker 2 (03:08):
But then but then you charge that corkage fee, and
that just to me feels like a total slap in
the face. They're like, sure, you can bring your fancy
stuff from home, but we're going to charge you to
open it.

Speaker 3 (03:17):
You gotta find a place that doesn't have a corkage fee.

Speaker 1 (03:19):
I know those exist. This is why Calli brings her
own corkscrew keeps and just pulls it out as neat.
She's got a little spout.

Speaker 2 (03:27):
They're like, ma'am, what that spout coming out of the
bottom of your of your bag there, crickler, she's filling
her glass up under the table. Callie, what is one
winery next time I happen to go to Napa or
Sonoma that we got to check out.

Speaker 1 (03:42):
You're a fan of.

Speaker 3 (03:44):
Okay, so Chapole very good. They are a national distributors,
so I can find a few of Chapoli's bottles in Charlotte.
So that's that's an accessible one that also has a
really good tour, really good wine. We also went to
one called Barnett. It's in the mountains of Napa, and
Mountain wine has a more like smoky, almost like I

(04:06):
don't even know how scotchy, kind of scotchy like earthyy
taste to it because the soil is a little different.
I think the grapes have to struggle more. But Barnett
has an incredible wine called the Rattlesnake, and it's a
little more expensive. It's definitely a splurge for us. But
the gosh, the mouth feel, I hate saying that. The
mouth feel and the experience of it is just really

(04:28):
really complex.

Speaker 2 (04:29):
Okay, I'm speaking about language a winery up in the mountains.
That sounds incredible.

Speaker 1 (04:33):
So struggling great.

Speaker 2 (04:34):
Yeah, and the views literally wrote that down for some
time or the future when we might head out there.
But you know, I didn't mention your title there at
Red Holts. You are the chief market strategist. What is like,
what do you actually do? And uh, I've also got
to think that regardless of what you do, that your
job might be a little more difficult in times like these.

Speaker 3 (04:55):
Yeah. So I get a lot of questions about that,
and I totally understand them because they are strategists in
every industry, and you know, a strategists, we do strategy.
What does that even mean? I try to describe my
role as a resident market NERD type role, and of course,
you know I think about markets a lot, I eat, sleep,
breathe investing. I know our portfolio is inside and out.

(05:17):
I talk to clients all the time about how their
money is invested and how how market moves are affecting
their money. But in a way, it's also a strategic
comms role. I'm telling a story, for lack of a
better phrase, about what's happening in markets, and you know
why that matters to everyday investors like you and me,
and thinking about how to tell that story to a

(05:37):
wide range of audiences.

Speaker 1 (05:40):
At one point recently, so you write a blog, which
is part of where you do some of the storytelling,
and you wrote practical advice is a good foundation, but
everybody needs a bit of beauty. And that's just interesting
to think that, Oh I need beauty inside of my
investment portfolio. So I'm curious, why what do you mean
by that? And what does beautiful investing look like?

Speaker 3 (05:58):
Well I got thinking of this because I read a
blog from Morgan Housel. So I can't take credit for this.
I can't take credit for all of this, but Morgan
wrote a really great blog about magazine architects or architects
that create these beautiful buildings, ones that you see in
magazines and architects digest, you know, ones that we all

(06:19):
drool over because we don't have to live in them,
but they're really not functional. You know, they don't have
they don't have the size of the garage that you
need to like actually you know, keep your car there,
or you don't. You don't have the right functionality to
actually live there. And I think the concept of that
is true for a lot of different areas of our lives.
And one area that people never talk about that for

(06:42):
is investing, because all we get is stay invested, stay
the course, put your money in an index fund, and
hold it, hold it until you die type advice. And
you know, I agree with that. I think it's hard
to make the argument against it. But I also think
that there's just an ocean of nuancewe queen staying invested
and you know, you know, kind of being haphazard with

(07:05):
your money, and that's really important. That's something we talk
about a lot with our clients here, the fact that
you know, you have to stay invested. You're investing for decades,
but we want to make sure that you stay invested,
and there are things like you can do that kind
of go against that traditional logic. But I also think
about it in my own world because like, yes, I
talk about the benefits of index funds, but even I

(07:26):
have targets in my portfolio. I sell according to those targets,
and you know, I am a little bit more active active,
even though I'd consider myself a long term investor looking
at retirement.

Speaker 2 (07:38):
What that does it just allows room for humanity and
like kind of going back to the Morgan househole analogy, like, yeah,
the reason those look spaces look cool is because they don't.
Actually they couldn't actually house somebody in real life, or
the practical needs of a family with a toddler running
around with sharp edges everywhere, whatever it might be. And

(07:58):
I think what you're speaking to is the abilit to
maybe be a bit flexible when it comes to our portfolios,
as opposed to completely grinning it, bearing it, never checking it,
because it's really hard to ignore all the news that's
popping up on our phones that we hear people talk about.
On that note, can you speak to the current state
of things? I guess all the volatility that we've felt.
It feels like we lived a couple of years just

(08:20):
in the past few months. Can you catch us up
to speed on let's say, the Trump the initial Trump bump,
but then the subsequent deflation. Why all this has happened?

Speaker 3 (08:30):
Yeah, well, how much time do we have here? Where
do I start?

Speaker 1 (08:34):
Seriously, this is a podcast, so many hours?

Speaker 3 (08:36):
Yeah, yeah, we can go as long as it takes, right, So,
I guess where we'd have to start is in the
middle of last year. And I think it's important to
understand where the economy was before we headed into this
year and had to digest all these policy changes. But
actually you'd probably have to back up to COVID, but
I'm not going to do that. Interest rates are actually

(08:56):
quite high right now. They've come down a little bit
since the middle of last year, and we've been in
before this year, we were in this spot with the
economy where you know, the job market was incredibly resilient.
We had a year or two where, you know, if
you're an employee, you had employers begging for you to
join their companies because demand was way too high. You know,
if you weren't switching your jobs, then you probably had

(09:18):
a lot of negotiation leverage at the table. And you
know that that leverage, that employee power fell more and
more and more, but at a gradual pace because the
FED put the brakes on the economy. Interest rates were
super high, mortgage rates were super high. We were all
thinking about saving instead of investing and borrowing. And that

(09:38):
really put us in a place in the middle of
last year where the FED and when I say the FED,
I'm talking about the interest rate nerds up in DC
that you know, basically pull the levers on interest rates.
The FED looked at the economy and they said, Okay,
we think there's a risk to going too far here.
Interest rates are putting a lot of pressure on the economy,
and we're seeing that pressure bleed into the job market.

(10:01):
So the FED started bringing rates down. The job market
got a little bit better at the end of the year,
but the economy was in a bit of a fragile state.
And then we moved into this year, and you know,
we've all seen the headline since then, right. A lot
of tariff policy that's been put out there, speculated, put
into place, walked back, put back into place, a lot

(10:23):
of snip snap decision making. And businesses, both businesses and
Americans are watching this happen and they're like, I have
no idea what the future holds. So instead of investing,
instead of spending my money on big ticket items like
cars and houses, which by the way, still costs a
lot of money because interest rates are still high. They've

(10:44):
decided to stop, and I think that I think the
pivot point, the big pivot point was April second Liberation Day,
where we got the list of pretty wide ranging tariffs
for a lot of different countries and there was a
lot of back and forth there, but that's really when
the stock market started dropping like a stone. It was

(11:04):
down about ten percent up to that point, but in
the week after that, we saw historical swings, like biggest
swings that we've seen since the COVID crisis in the
financial crisis, as people really tried to process what huge
reciprocal tariffs could mean for their lives, their portfolios, their businesses.
And that's kind of where we are. We're still processing it.

Speaker 1 (11:27):
Yeah, the reciprocal tariffs that weren't really reciprocal and that
have been pulled back but not fully rolled back. I
guess I'm curious too, do you think this new political
approach and new policy priorities do you think that is
mostly what we're seeing or it feels like there was
a lot of talk about an overinflated stock market even

(11:50):
before Trump took office. Do you think part of what's
happening to the stock market is a natural pullback that
occurs when stocks are overvalued.

Speaker 3 (11:59):
I think it's a little bit of both. And I
hesitate to say that stocks are overvalue because I think
it's really hard to judge that. So when you're talking
about valuation, I'm going to make an assumption, but you're
probably talking about the price to earnings ratio, or where
earnings are expected to be over the next year and
where a stock or an index is trading relative to
those earnings. Right, Yeah, Okay, so pe price to earnings

(12:22):
ratio is a really it's a good way to judge
how stocks are valued, but it's hard to say. I'm
trying to think of the right way to say this.
It's hard to it's hard to say where they should
be valued because that price to earnings ratio can price
in a lot of hope, you know, a lot of
dreams about AI, a lot of optimism about.

Speaker 1 (12:41):
The future, and values in the eye of the beholder.

Speaker 3 (12:44):
A little bit value is in the eye of the beholder.
You know, there are designer shirts, there are shirts that
you get off the rack at Walmart. They're made with
the same fabrics, but you're paying different prices, right, same
thing with the price to earnings ratio, And in most environments,
a higher PE is actually okay. It's okay, tod, it's
okay to think about where tech stocks could be going
in the future. Just because the PE is high doesn't

(13:05):
mean the market's about to crash. The problem is when
you start to see economic cracks, right, and that's when
the optimism starts to fade. That's when you should probably
expect the PE to start falling because because again, you know,
expectations for the future start to fall, and then actual earnings,
if it gets bad enough, will start to fall as well.

(13:27):
And that's the moment that we're in right now, where yeah,
you're probably looking back and saying, Okay, the stock market
is probably richly valued or too high for what could
be coming. But yeah, what you brought up is actually
really important too. You know, the stock market sells off
in healthy economies. This in a way is kind of

(13:47):
part of the process. And we're coming off two incredible
years in the stock market. I mean twenty percent back
to back gains in the S and P five hundred.

Speaker 2 (13:55):
That's true, we're not going to talk about teriffs the
entire time.

Speaker 3 (13:58):
But ken if you want.

Speaker 2 (14:00):
I feel like our listeners have had enough. I feel
like I've had enough, to be honest, because I feel
like so much if they haven't had enough with us,
I feel like a lot of it is overblown, And
at least at the time of this recording, we haven't
yet feel like businesses are looking ahead because they're looking
at quarters at a time, and especially small businesses and
how they're impacted by terras and the foreign availability of

(14:20):
goods that they need as inputs to run their businesses right.
But as consumers, a lot of folks haven't seen significant
increases when it comes to when it comes to prices,
and that was one of the biggest things that the
market was reacting to. Do you feel that the whole
terrorist thing is overblown or is it just it's more
complex and it's just going to take longer for it
to trickle through the system before we start seeing the headlines,

(14:43):
before we start seeing the lines of folks lining up
at stores, that kind of thing.

Speaker 3 (14:46):
I think it's happening. So Liberation Day was April second,
so there's been about four weeks between that initial announcement
Trump with the poster and know us recording today. That's
about the time it takes from a ship to move
to go from China to the port of Los Angeles,
for those goods to be unloaded and finally make it
to their final destination. That stuff takes time. That's a

(15:07):
long journey. So what we're seeing right now is that
port volumes are coming down, which is concerning. That means
that there actually is some There are inventory changes that
are happening on the back of these dramatic tariffs, especially
coming from China. And look, once that's happening, it's gonna
roll through the system and you're gonna see it in

(15:28):
some way or another, empty shelves, higher prices, mix of
the two. That is anybody's guess. What worries me is
that we're starting to see indications through company earnings reports
and through more bird's eye view. Macro reports that a
lot of companies feel comfortable passing along those prices, which
means you and I when we go to the store,

(15:50):
we're going to pay higher prices for those goods. The
companies aren't just going to eat that cost.

Speaker 1 (15:56):
Yeah, yeah, I'm curious too, how much of an impact
like foreign backlash against tariffs, Like what could the ramifications
be there? We've already seen Canadians saying I'm not vacationing
in the United States anymore, and just far fewer people
from just north are are coming down, and it's you know,

(16:18):
hurting our tourism industry. And you wrote something about I
think foreign consumers can essentially cause a lot of pain
for Corporate America. Do you think those boycotts from other
countries because of the way we're acting could have other
ramifications too.

Speaker 3 (16:33):
You know, I worry a lot about this because I
think it's hard to quantify the eventual impact, but we
know the impact could be big. And that's actually why
I wrote the Boycott American newsletter. I wasn't saying boycott America,
but what I was trying to do is put some
numbers behind how interwoven foreign consumers, foreign tourists, foreign investors
are in our markets and the travel. The travel part

(16:55):
is interesting because we've already started to see data and
really interesting color from travel companies on how foreign bookings
are down. So we heard it from Delta, I believe
we heard it from American in the past few weeks
they've seen bookings come down, especially international bookings foreign tourists
coming into the US. And I saw a report from

(17:16):
a Canadian travel consulting company and like, look, this is
this is one report, but it's backed up by a
lot of color that we're seeing or that we're hearing.
But this one report from the Canadian travel consulting company
said that Canadian bookings of travel into the US are
down seventy percent year every year, which is a huge number.

(17:38):
It's a scary number. And I don't take one piece
of data and you know, un run down a rabbit
hole with that. I don't think that's smart for anybody
to do, but it should, at the very least make
you think a little bit about, you know, the second
order consequences or the second order effects of what could
be going on here and in markets. I don't know
if a lot of people know this. I certainly wouldn't

(17:59):
know if I didn't work in finance, but foreign investors
have been major buyers of stocks and bonds over the
past several years, primarily because we have the biggest and best,
most innovative companies in the world. I mean, everybody wants
to invest in Apple, right, but on the bond side,
we also have an incredibly deep and incredibly rich and

(18:20):
volume heavy marketing government det it's called the treasury market,
and foreign investors have been turning more and more to
treasuries to hedge their portfolios and to get a nice
stable source of yield. So we have to step back
and consider that some of that, maybe all of that
could be at risk here.

Speaker 1 (18:39):
Yeah, and so much of that.

Speaker 2 (18:41):
It's a slow burn. I think that's what I'm coming
to terms with. When it's between the news the headlines
Trump making changes to tear us or to following through
or pulling back in the stock market, it's incredibly reactionary.
And we see day and now I mean not even
day to day changes like minutes a minute, hour by
hour sort of changes. But when it comes to some
of these higher prices, and what you said is totally true, right,

(19:02):
We've seen the reports of the empty cargo ships showing
up at port because they're like, all right, we got
to keep moving. And at some point, if there are
no goods, we might be bound to see higher prices
less availability of goods on the shelves. But from an
investing standpoint, what should we do, Like how should folks
respond to the different pieces of news that they come across,

(19:24):
because kind of going back to the beginning of our conversation,
you're talking about having beauty, you're investing being beautiful.

Speaker 1 (19:31):
I feel like a part of what you're.

Speaker 2 (19:32):
Saying there is to take into account the fact that
there are going to be things that you're going to
want to want to react to and to allow for
some of that humanity to play out in our investing.
Would you recommend that?

Speaker 3 (19:44):
Yeah, I think that's a good place to start, and
I just want to add something else on that practicality
versus beauty comment. You know, a lot of client conversations
we have, and a lot of conversations I'm having with
friends and family right now are what to do. And
usually the options that they see in front of them
are to sell everything and run for the hills, or
buy everything and stay invested, because that's what the spreadsheet

(20:05):
is telling me to do. Right and measures extreme measures,
But in a way, people don't realize that they're extreme
because I see, because I see different flavors of this
every day, I can say that it's extreme. And by
the way, if you feel that way, it's okay. You're
human your brain is working as it should. It's supposed
to alert you of risks, but as an investor, you

(20:25):
have to take that in and you know understand how
you should react in this moment based on how you
feel in your gut, but also based on what you're
going to do with your money and how much time
you have in front of you. And it's this, it's
this really tough, tangled mix of reality and feeling, and
that's why finance is really hard. But to go back

(20:47):
to your question, I mean, I think a lot of
people have that middle lane and they don't realize they
have it. So if it means, you know, looking at
your portfolio saying that you're investing for a retirement and
that means that you have a few decades ahead of you,
then you know, maybe it means raising a little bit
of cash, filling up your emergency fund, making sure you
feel comfortable with where you are in case you will

(21:09):
lose your job, because unfortunately, job loss is the reality
of economic crises. That's one of the hallmarks of you know,
why growth slows down and people stop spending money, and
you know, trying to put yourself in a place where
you're comfortable but you don't abandon your future self at
the same time, because, like again, if you go back

(21:31):
to the math, it makes a lot of sense to
buy when the stock market is down ten or fifteen
percent from highs if you have decades ahead of you.
But that's not so easy in practice. And I certainly
don't want to assume that it is easy with anybody
I'm talking to, because I'm a human too, I understand
how it feels.

Speaker 1 (21:49):
So you say you're a human, which I fully believe
you when you say that. What you and actually you've
alluded to this in some of your recent blocks. So
you said you admitted to being a little scared, and
you also have said like, hey, I'm kind of a
type A person means I want more control. I'm curious
how that mixture of being a little fearful because especially
given the how much you've been around markets and how

(22:12):
much history you've read about, you know, stock market gyrations
like hey, you're pretty young, Kelly, Like why are you fearful?
And how is your type A self responding to what's
going on? Like what are you doing?

Speaker 3 (22:24):
You just painted me so well Type A and anxious
about everything. Both of those comments are absolutely true, and
I'm not. Look, I don't hide that, and I think
Wall Street sometimes falls into this trap of, you know,
hiding the fact that they're humans, because, Okay, I get
part of it. Like you, you're managing a lot of money,
and you don't want to lead on that you you

(22:44):
might have an ounce of uncertainty, of feeling an ounce
of uncertainty in yourself. I get why people move that way,
but I try to approach these situations from a moment
of empathy and if we're being honest here, like I
don't know what the future holds. I down the rabbit
hole sometimes a lot these days, not so much on
the investing side, but you know, on the policy side,

(23:07):
on the you know, living life as a human side,
where could this go? Especially you know, the with the
extremism of the headlines and policy that we all hear about.
But I'm lucky that I have the investing background. I
know how markets work, and I know how important a
process is. So I'm not your listeners. So I want

(23:29):
to be clear when I say this. I'm not making
a recommendation. But I know that I am investing for
retirement and I'm in my thirties, so I have decades
ahead of me. And even if you're in retirement and
you're living off your portfolio, yes, this moment feels scarier,
but you're probably investing for decades too. God forbid, you're
dying the day that you retire. I hope that doesn't
happen to you. So I think you know, as somebody

(23:52):
who leans back on numbers, I really try to sit
back on the fact that I have a lot of
time ahead of me, that if I do feel anxious,
then I need to make sure sure my financial house
is in order, so that can cull a little bit
of my feeling there. And look, I leave it up
to the numbers. I have targets for stocks, bonds, and
crypto in my portfolio, and if my allocations move out

(24:13):
of the target, I adjust. I also have pulled forward
a few like monthly investing investing deposits that I was
going to make, because I know that when stocks are
down ten, fifteen to twenty percent, then that's often a
good buying opportunity, even if it doesn't feel good at
the moment. So there are little changes you can make

(24:34):
on the margins, and yes, raising cash is okay on
the margins if you don't go too far, but there
are little changes you can make to tailor your portfolio
to you and how you feel that don't necessarily doom you,
you know, years down the road.

Speaker 2 (24:50):
That's that type a Cali stupat right there, overcoming anxiety
calli oh and going back to market house numbers. Not
to make this all about him, but like that's like
the beatle full architectural home, but also there's a little
bit of mess in there, you know, like there's a
little bit or there's a random piece of art that
doesn't quite fit the rest.

Speaker 1 (25:06):
Of the of the house.

Speaker 2 (25:07):
Because like that's the kind of thing that allows for
there to be more of that sort of messy day
to day living. It doesn't doesn't have to be all
stoic and perfect and personal and yeah, emotionless, but you've
got more sane and rational investing advice to get to.
With Cali Cox in particular, we're going to talk about
some of the things that some younger investors should keep

(25:29):
in mind. We'll get to that and more right after this.

Speaker 1 (25:38):
Our we're back still talking with Calie Cox, talking about
markets and Cally and just kind of what's happening right
now from an economic perspective and the impact that's having
on personal finance decisions. Kelly, I'm curious too, like, how
do you think the current climate conditions and economic uncertainty
should impact the personal finance decisions were made. I'm thinking about,

(26:01):
in particular, something as big as buying a house, and
I know that like Zillow has said, hey, we think
that home prices are actually going to decline this year,
and that might be welcome news from someone who's been
trying to buy a home that it has been unable
to But then they're like, well, but wait a second,
my portfolio is down ten percent. I feel like I

(26:21):
have less buying power now, so maybe it's not a
win win. I don't know, how are you thinking or
how are you advising people think about some of those
bigger buying decisions right now.

Speaker 3 (26:29):
Yeah, that's a really good question, And of course it
all boils down to your own situation, your own goals.
I know you're going to hear that everywhere, but I
just want to emphasize that that's really important. I don't
know how much money you have in your bank account,
I don't know why you're investing your money. Those facts
are really important when you're making these decisions. The first
thing I'll say there is that interest rates sit at

(26:50):
the heart of a lot of these decisions. And that's
why a few minutes ago I was talking about the
Federal Reserve and where they're setting their policy rate. It's
not the Fed's policy rate doesn't directly impact the mortgage
rate that you're going to be paying on a new house,
but it has a pretty heavy hand and those mortgage
rates that you're seeing, So to a certain extent, you

(27:12):
have to know where interest rates are and where they're going.
And right now, interest rates are still quite high, which
means that you're getting really nice savings rates on your
savings account. And if you're not, please switch banks. I
know you can. I know you can get a good
rate there. But at the same time, what you're giving
up is the fact that you borrowing has become more expensive,

(27:32):
and we have these seven percent mortgage rates and ten
percent auto loan rates that you have to contend with.
So know that in this moment, from the financial side,
it may not be the best moment to step out
and buy a house. But then again, that's a personal decision,
so you just have to know the risks that you're
taking on when you're you know, making these huge life

(27:53):
altering decisions, and unfortunately the FED isn't on your side.
They might be down the road, but the problem is
the FED will probably is that the FED will probably
cut interest rates because we start to see some weakness
in the economy and that weakness could affect you in
one way or the other. So I would just take
a step back, you know, understand what you want to

(28:13):
do in the next one year, two years, three years,
write it down on a piece of paper, keep yourself
honest there, and prepare for an environment where it does
cost a little bit more and you can't, you know,
rely on a steady income. I mean, I hate to
be I hate to paint the worst case scenario here,
but I think it's important to make these decisions with

(28:33):
all options in mind.

Speaker 2 (28:35):
Yeah, I think that's wise. Yeah, we can't. I thought
you were going to say this, but we can't bank
on those rate cuts for you to go ahead and
buy now while balances are a little bit higher, assuming
that those rate cuts will come and you have the
ability to refinance.

Speaker 1 (28:48):
Sure, he had dropping interests. It feels like had been
promised by people, especially in the real estate industry for
the last couple of years, and they haven't meant to.

Speaker 2 (28:54):
Like they're common.

Speaker 1 (28:55):
It's like, well, actually we haven't not yet by the
home you can always refin.

Speaker 2 (29:00):
Well, let's get back to investing, Kelly, because I want
to talk about the younger generation. There are there have
been a lot of folks who have become more accustomed
to being on their phones where they're trading regularly on
apps like Robinhood. Do you think that this is a
positive trend overall or are you worried that they're going
to get the wrong idea about investing and they're going
to get burned because of the availability. Like, on one hand,

(29:23):
the availability availability is obviously good the democratization of investing,
but on the other hand, talk to us about maybe
the false pretenses in which a lot of younger folks
are investing.

Speaker 3 (29:33):
Yes, unequivocally this is a good thing, and I believe
pretty strongly in this, And of course I have a
brikerage background, so I am a little biased here. But
when look the history of our country is built, what
has been built on walls around capital markets, you know, investing.

(29:55):
You and I, of course we didn't have cell phones
before the two thousands or so. But you and I
investing without having to call up a broker wasn't possible
until the late nineteen nineties. There was that natural moat
where it was incredibly hard to invest and some people
didn't have the ability to invest because you know, a

(30:15):
lot of this talk was happening behind closed doors. We
couldn't be further from that environment these days. I mean, gosh,
you said it, but you can get on your phone
swipes are swipe you buy a stock. I think that's
a good thing. I think investing should be accessible to everybody,
and I think every American should have the power to
build wealth the way that they want. It's your money.
I'm not going to tell you what to do with it.

(30:36):
You know, if you bring it to red Holes, I
can help advise you on it. But you know, ultimately,
you do what you want to do, and you should
have the power to be able to do what you
want with your money. And we're there. We are at
a point where I think a lot of investors are
learning hard lessons, which is okay. Sometimes that's the best
way to grow and learn. But I'm glad that investors

(30:57):
are jumping into the sandbox and you know, trying out
different markets, especially when they're younger, when they can afford
to take on this risk, and you know, when they can,
you know, start to feel better about about, you know,
investing larger sums of money. I always said this at
Ally and E Toro, and I firmly believe this too.
Sometimes the best way to learn how to invest is

(31:17):
to invest. It's dipping your toe on the water. It's
opening that breakerage account, getting over that initial hump, you know,
maybe throwing ten dollars in, putting it in a stock,
putting it in a fund, and seeing where it goes.
I really think learning is an experience that people underestimate,
and a lot of Americans, especially younger investors, are getting
that experience right now.

Speaker 1 (31:38):
Doing the thing, even if it's done imperfectly. I think
you're right. I think that is overwhelmingly good. And we're
seeing more. I've seen more evidence that investors, young investors
seem to be understanding investing a little bit more, especially
when you see the market drop, and I feel like

(31:58):
what I'm seeing in Respet is less panic selling and
more buying the dip. How do you think about that?
What's your take on that?

Speaker 2 (32:07):
Approach.

Speaker 1 (32:08):
Is it are they taking the war and Buffett being
fearful when others are greedy, being greedy when others are
fearful sort of adage? Or or are these yeah, are
young individual investors becoming a little more sophisticated.

Speaker 3 (32:20):
They're definitely becoming more sophisticated. This goes back to the
learning by experience, right, you know, maybe selling into us
into a stock market drop and then realizing that price
rebounded on you, maybe feeling that pain more acutely through options.
I think investors have learned a bit of a reflex
over the past decade or so, which I think can

(32:41):
get a little tricky because I don't think that same
reflex will work in this moment. But I mean I
think investors are aware of, you know, what can happen,
especially with the FED being as powerful as it is
in markets these days. And I don't necessarily think that's
a bad thing. I mean, we talk about staying invested
in how hard it is to stay invested all the time,

(33:02):
and you know, younger investors are out here saying by
the dip and then going into markets, going into markets
without a second thought. Honestly, if you are if you
have decades ahead of you as a twenty something year old,
then you're doing the right thing. I just think you
have to be a little careful about that. And again,
it's your money, you do whatever you want with it.
But you know, I don't think in a high interest

(33:24):
rate environment, when inflation is a problem, and when unemployment
is a real risk too, I don't think by the
dep works as works as well as people think it will.

Speaker 2 (33:35):
I feel that I feel like Kelly might be like
a closet libertarian jewel.

Speaker 1 (33:39):
I hear a lot of her saying.

Speaker 2 (33:41):
You be you, you do you, it's.

Speaker 1 (33:43):
Your money, don't reveal her political affiliations. Man, No, Obviously,
personal responsibility fastly important. We're talking about taking risks though,
and like when you are investing, that is inevitable. But
what are some of the bad, risky moves that you
are seeing folks make. Especially we're kind of focusing on
younger investors here. I don't even want to say younger cohorts.

Speaker 2 (34:02):
It's just online folks because sometimes they're older folks, yeah,
who obviously spend way too much online. But it seems
like that there tends to be a following of different trends,
which can lead to poor outcomes. So maybe that's the question.
What are some of the negative, risky trends that you
see more folks jumping on these days.

Speaker 3 (34:21):
Well, I want to talk about the social aspect first,
because I don't think the social aspect is that bad either.
We do lots of different things for many different reasons.
I think it's okay to invest because your friends are
investing and you want a sense of community. Again, that's
my brokerage background speaking. I used to work for a
social investing platform. But I truly don't think that's a problem.

(34:43):
If you want to learn and build community through your money,
it's your money. You do whatever you want with it.
I think the trouble comes when younger investors or investors
of any age come in and they learn a hard
lesson and then they just don't trust cop markets ever again.
And I see that happening for investors of all ages.

(35:04):
I mean, gosh, we have brikerige customers that I talk
to that really wrestled with this, And what I hate
about that is, you know, piles of data have shown
us that capital markets are the way to build wealth
in America. That is a fact that you can't argue
against and sometimes you just have to, you know, lean
in and kind of ride the coattails of America's best companies.

(35:29):
You know, sometimes that's the easiest and most accessible path
for you. So I think education is really important here.
I think it's smart to remind people that stocks go
up and down. You have different layers of risk when
it comes to single stocks, and you're magnifying those risks
sometimes with options. You know, people need to be equipped
with how they're investing. But ultimately, I think it's a

(35:52):
trust thing. If people start to lose trust in capital markets,
then you're going to have a lot of problems in society.
And I worry that we're moving toward that point.

Speaker 1 (35:59):
So you just said people need to be reminded stocks
go up and down. Do you think in one sense,
we as a population investor population got used to kind of, hey,
markets go up. Hey, this is just guaranteed returns that
far exceed what I'm going to get inside my high
yield savings account. It's it's kind of like a high

(36:19):
old savings account, but on steroids. So I just need
more and more stock exposure and that maybe those people
and when you look at like the last fifteen years,
returns have been better than average, and we have had
fewer downturns like an extended bowle market. Did we just
get used to something that isn't the norm.

Speaker 3 (36:37):
I don't think we necessarily got used to it, because
we had the Great Financial Crisis, we had the COVID crisis,
we had a painful, painful twenty twenty two where it
felt like no market was going up, and in reality
a lot of tangible investment investments were going up with inflation,
but stocks and bonds weren't working and people felt that.
So I wouldn't necessarily think that's the case. I think

(37:00):
what it comes down to, at least over the past
decade or so, has been a lack of options. Looking
at a bank account, seeing that I'm talking about pre
twenty two here, looking at your bank account, seeing that
you're getting paid nothing on your savings account, you know,
looking at the fixed income market, seeing that you're getting
paid two percent to lend money for ten years down
the road, and you know, wondering how you build wealth.

(37:22):
Oh and I'll add too, looking outside of markets into
a corporate world where you know, wage gains were pithy,
were awful because the incentives were all off after the
Great Financial Crisis, and a lot of companies were they
felt like they were in survival mode. They weren't necessarily
investing back in their employees, they were, they were paying

(37:45):
more attention to their shareholders, especially as that worked over time.
So I mean, picture a millennial investor, Picture you and
me sitting here wondering what our options are to build
our wealth and seeing the stock market and basically nothing else.

Speaker 1 (37:58):
Then yeah, it feels like the only game in town.

Speaker 3 (38:00):
Yeah, exactly. And that's that's to a t what Wall
Street was saying back in the mid twenty tens. Stocks
are the only game in town, and they were right.
I think we're seeing the other side of that. And again,
like I said, not necessarily a bad thing. I think
it led to some skewed incentives. But yeah, we had
to lean on the stock market. That's you know, that's

(38:22):
really what we grew up with in our teens and twenties.
And to a certain extent, that's good because you know,
like I said, it's been it's been really hard to
invest for way too long. But on the other hand,
I think now we have some options. Wage growth is
finally healthy, especially especially for you know, lower level jobs.

(38:43):
We have bonds that are actually paying out yield. We
have savings account rates that you know, hover between three
and four percent above inflation, and you know, we're like, Wow,
this is a whole new world. I don't I don't
really know what to do with it, but I do
know the stock market works, so maybe let me lean
into that. And that's not always that's not always a

(39:03):
quick immediate source of dopamine or help or gains.

Speaker 2 (39:09):
Yeah, yeah, no, I get that. What do you have
an opinion on the fire movement? This is kind of
a somewhat weird pivot, but I mean, I guess you
mentioned the twenty tens as well, and I'm just like
something else that kind of was birthed in the twenty tens.
That makes me think of all the folks who are like, oh,
the fire movement, financial independence, retiring early. Do you have
an opinion there? Do you think that most folks who

(39:30):
ascribe to the fire movement are equipped to handle prolonged
downturns You mentioned twenty twenty two when basically like no
market was doing well in twenty twenty two. The view
towards work and being productive in society, i'd love to
get your thoughts on fire.

Speaker 3 (39:45):
So I think the fire movement is interesting. It's not
a path that I'm going down. I love what I do.
I actually find a lot of value in my work.
It lights me up. I have a passion around it,
and I'm really lucky to feel that way. I think there.
I think that there has been a little bit of
a boost to that movement just because markets have done

(40:07):
so well, and I'm not sure enough people realize the
reality of living on your portfolio and how painful it
can be when stocks are selling off and bonds are
selling off, which unfortunately is the scenario that some of
us are in right now. I generally advise against looking
to extremes. I feel like fire is a bit of

(40:28):
an extreme decision, and if it's if it's a decision
that works for you, that's great. I'm not sure it
works for a bunch of different people. Even though we
can all I think at times we can all agree
that it would be fun to retire and travel forever
and you know, live off of your portfolio.

Speaker 1 (40:44):
It also might get old. Let's be honest.

Speaker 3 (40:46):
I worry about that.

Speaker 1 (40:48):
Who can travel forever?

Speaker 3 (40:49):
I mean, like you said, I'm type and anxious. I
was in Costa Rica for a week and I had
a great time, but towards the end, I was like, Man,
I really miss my normal life. I miss the routine.
And I think a lot of people realize once they
retire at any age, that that routine and that sense
of purpose is really important. I actually think Coast Fire
is really interesting. I learned about Coast Fire about a

(41:11):
year ago, and it's the movement where you don't retire immediately,
but what you know is that you could live off
your portfolio if you have to, if you didn't contribute
any more to your portfolio, and you have like a
retirement age ahead of you that you're aiming for. I
think that's a really cool psychological hack, and I think
it's more realistic for the majority of people who do

(41:33):
learn about the Fire movement.

Speaker 1 (41:35):
Do you think do you think some of the people
in the Fire movement maybe made rosy projections of future
stock market increases based on historical realities, based on recency bias,
and that maybe especially when you look at predictions from
places like Vanguard and they're saying over the next decade,
returns are going to be pretty tepid. Do you think

(41:55):
some of those folks might find that the ways they
assumed their portfolio would perform, well, maybe it doesn't perform
in that way, and they're left in a much more
tenuous situation.

Speaker 3 (42:07):
I'm sure there's a little bit of that, because you know,
we all make different assumptions. I don't love the forecasts
that come out of the Vanguards and Goldman Sachs's of
the world where they say, you know, we think stocks
will make X over the next ten years. Like that's
as good of a guess as me licking my finger
and sticking it in the air and trying to tell
you where the wimbile blow. It's not. It is based
on some math, but it's it's ultimately marketing, right, It's

(42:30):
ultimately getting an interesting opinion out there for an audience
that you're trying to reach. That's all it is. It's
not a great assumption to go off of. I don't
know if you remember, but Goldman actually put out a
report six months ago or so where they said that
they think and I'm I'm not sure which stock index
they targeted, but they said stock they think stocks will

(42:51):
return an average of three percent over the next ten years.
And I had so many friends and family ask me
about that report. I think because there was a tangible
number in it and it was Goldman, it got a
lot of news pick up. But I was like, are
you kidding me? Like what makes you think that even
Goldman has a crystal ball and can see into the
future and where markets are going. I think the twenty

(43:14):
tens are the perfect example of you know, why forecasts
are forecasts are ultimately bunk. You know, they they're good
at teaching you how to think differently, Like, sure, they're
good at spurring discussion, but I think you can, you know,
fall on the wrong side of forecasts that are too
high and forecasts that are too low, and generally it

(43:37):
makes sense to be a little more conservative in your
own portfolio, Like you can't assume, you can't assume twenty
percent returns forever more and more. I hope that happens,
but I don't think that's very likely. But at the
same time, I don't think it serves you to go
to conservative or to listen to the more pessimistic forecasts

(43:58):
around that, because nobody really knows.

Speaker 1 (44:00):
Don't listen to the pestimist, listen to optimistic. Cali I
like that. You have just a few more questions to
get to with you, Cali, including with let's talk about stagflation,
a term we're hearing more and more about. We'll get
to that right after this.

Speaker 2 (44:20):
We're back from the break with Callie Cox.

Speaker 1 (44:23):
Cali.

Speaker 2 (44:23):
Something you said before the break, you said it can
be painful to live off of your portfolio. And I
think one of the things you're speaking to there is
like the reality of knowing that the numbers point to
of fairly rosy future even with conservative estimates, right like
not even the most aggressive expecting the most aggressive returns.

(44:44):
There's a difference between knowing that, but then the lived
reality of seeing, you know, maybe objectively dumb decisions being
made on a pop when it comes to policy and
how that impacts our government. Is there some sort of
I don't know, like rule of thumb or some sort
of test that folks can put on themselves to help
them to analyze whether the decisions that they're making in

(45:06):
regards to their portfolio is more of an emotional knee
jerk reaction versus them trying to reevaluate the new basically
the new.

Speaker 1 (45:16):
Rules of the game.

Speaker 2 (45:17):
Right, Like, there's a difference between just like without even
looking anything, just completely reacting, versus saying, Okay, well, actually
maybe I can't handle this type of risk and what
I need to do here is rebalance my portfolio or
lean a little bit more in a conservative direction.

Speaker 1 (45:33):
Is there a way to know whether.

Speaker 2 (45:34):
Or not somebody is making the moves that they're making
for the right reason.

Speaker 3 (45:38):
I feel like I could talk about this specific question
for an hour plus, but I'll try to boil it
down because this is actually giving me an idea for
a newsletter.

Speaker 2 (45:46):
All right.

Speaker 3 (45:47):
I think it depends. It depends the worst answer ever,
it depends on who you are, and I think the
test is different for everybody. But some general guidance I
would give around that is how quickly you make a decision.
So let's say a bad headline crosses the tape, another
tariff headline, and you know it feels painful, and you say, ah,

(46:08):
I feel like I should sell stocks. If you feel
that reaction immediately, you probably can't trust it. And I
know that's a hard thing to say, because I want
I want people to feel like they can trust themselves.
But there's a difference between between a reaction and a
sound decision and when when both of them are overlapping,

(46:30):
or when the sound decision comes quickly, I think you
need to question it at the very least. Again, I
like to lean on numbers, So when I have a
nicky type of anxious reaction, I always go back to
my numbers. I remind myself that, Okay, my portfolio is
this size. X percent is in stocks, and this is
why X percent is in bonds, and this is why
X percent is in crypto. This is why, and that

(46:53):
usually writes my path. But I know that I eat, sleep,
breathe this stuff, so it's a little it's a little
little bit easier for me. I think about this a lot.
The other thing I'd throw out there is, you know,
there are certain processes that work for different people, but
the process is the important part when you have those feelings.

(47:13):
Knowing how to center yourself, So even if it's like
touching the table in front of you, or sipping a
cup of hot tea or touching grass or something, knowing
how to get back into yourself and then calmly evaluating
what's going on is really smart. And knowing what that
process is for you is very important. So you can
get to a point that you can think through this

(47:36):
sound decision that you're about to make. And again it's
not easy. But everybody talks about having an investing plan.
This is when an investing plan is really important. I
invest when I get my paycheck and maybe not outside
of it, although I think you could be a little
fluid with that. And I will put X percent of

(47:56):
my money into stocks, ex percent of my money into bonds,
ex percent of my money into crypto if that's suitable
for you, and knowing when you'll eventually need that money
so you can make a plan to take it out.

Speaker 1 (48:08):
So we're hearing the term stagflation thrown around a lot
these days, which is a throwback to the nineteen seventies
when none of us were born.

Speaker 3 (48:17):
Are you saying you know how old I am.

Speaker 2 (48:19):
Well, you referred to us as millennials, that we are
barely millennials, Cali, So that tells me that you are
younger than that's true.

Speaker 3 (48:26):
I did tap my hand there.

Speaker 1 (48:27):
So stackflation is the thing that only our parents remember.
But is that something you're truly worried about? Is that
something we can or should be preparing for? How would
we react?

Speaker 3 (48:36):
I'm worrying about it more. I wouldn't say that I'm
certain it will happen. I'm certain nothing will happen. Nobody
knows what the future holds, but I worry. So I'll
explain what stackplation is first, and then I'll talk about
where we are now. So stackflation is this economic phenomenon
where unemployment is going higher, people are losing their jobs.
Prices are also going higher, so inflation and economic growth

(49:00):
is stagnant. And those three conditions together are really hard
to reach, especially these days. But when you do get there,
like in the nineteen seventies, it can be incredibly painful
because when we think about the economy, we think about
it in terms of affordability. How much money am I making?
What can I afford? In a period of sagflation. You

(49:21):
fall behind so quickly when it comes to affordability, especially
if you lose your job and if prices are moving higher,
you can't afford things and you're not making money. That's
the worst trench to be in. We're not broadly, we're
not there yet right now, and I think the bar
is really high to get there for a few really
nerdy reasons, but mainly because the FED exists and it

(49:43):
has this dual mandate this two part job where it
has to watch inflation and it has to watch the
job market. And I think the Fed's hands are tied
right now. They're not sure what side to focus on more.
But if we do get further into this and there
is some economic damage, I think the side to focus
on will become abundantly clear and they'll be able to
do something about it. Something that a lot of people

(50:06):
don't know is that the Fed's dual mandate actually came
out of the nineteen seventies and the stagflation that we
saw in the seventies that was ultimately that ultimately went
into the eighties and was kind of smothered out by
Paul Volker. Congress actually passed an act after that that
set the Fed's dual mandate. So we have this like
natural stabilizer there that wasn't there in the nineteen seventies.

(50:28):
So I say all this to say, stagflation I think
is still far away. You might feel inklings of it
here and there, but the true conditions of awful stagflation
that affects that affects a large swath of the population,
are still far away. And I think that there are
some counterbalances.

Speaker 2 (50:44):
Nice, awesome, Well, CALLI, thank you so much for taking
the time to speak with us, everything from trading on
your phone to stagflation, retirement finding, calm touch. I like
how you're just even touching the table in front of you.

Speaker 3 (50:57):
I like sipping hot tea. That's actually why I brought
it up. When I feel anxious, I get a cup
of tea and I just sip it and I meditate.
And I think sounds corny, but that's what I do.

Speaker 1 (51:06):
No, I think it like what you pointed to earlier,
you need out of that is knitting.

Speaker 3 (51:12):
Now you're saying I'm old.

Speaker 1 (51:13):
Okay, then you're my grandma.

Speaker 2 (51:15):
You will be ready for a retirement at that point, Calli.
But that's how we know. Yeah, No, seriously, we really
appreciate taking the time, and of course we'll point folks
over to your substack optimistic CALLI. But yeah, thank you
for hanging out with us today.

Speaker 3 (51:28):
Yeah, thanks for having me. This was a lot of
fun and hopefully the next conversation we have will be
a little cheerier.

Speaker 1 (51:35):
Awesome, Thanks Cally. All Right, Matt, good convo with Calli,
and uh yeah, a lot of good information and hopefully
just all about investing, I know, and hopefully just some
a calming effect for the people out there who are
worried about the future. And let's be honest, it's hard.
It's hard not to be at least somewhat worried about
the future, a.

Speaker 2 (51:56):
Little bit anxious. Yeah, and wonder how much hot tea
Cali drinking these days. She's like, oh, I've noticed my
my hot tea intake spiked significantly over the past three
months exactly.

Speaker 1 (52:07):
But still there's a lot of reasons to be calm
and to be excited about the future too. So what
was your big takeaway from this combo?

Speaker 2 (52:14):
Well, I guess speaking to that, it's all about And
something she said was to find comfort with whatever plan
it is that you as an individual have come up with.
And you know, she said, write it down, she said,
she said, having hot tea that's a part of her plan. Like,
I would love to see that written down somewhere as
part of her you know, her twelfth step process to
talk herself down from the ledge if she's feeling a

(52:35):
little bit anxious about the markets, and you know how
her investments are doing. But you find that comfort, but simultaneously,
you don't abandon the overall plan that you know is
going to lead to your financial future. Like it's a
it's like our own personal forget the FED, this is
our own personal dual mandate that we have to somehow
find a way to navigate, to find comfort, to not

(52:56):
freak out at every headline or tweet or truth that
gets pushed out there, to be able to stay the
course and maybe be able to respond thoughtfully, but at
the same time knowing that over the long haul, this
is this is what we gotta do.

Speaker 1 (53:09):
Yeah. Yeah, I like that a lot, and that that
involves having a plan, right, So yeah, it's a good
idea if you don't have one, to have one and
to write it out so that you know what to
do first, that you're not just like knee jerk making
bad decisions because you're emotional. And I get it. It's
it's hard not to be emotional sometimes, so you need
the plan to help you avoid the worst impulses. I
think my big takeaway was when she was like, I

(53:31):
don't really pay attention to those predictions to the pessimist,
and it's really hard when there's like a name like
Vanguard or Golden Sacks attached to it, and.

Speaker 2 (53:39):
You're like JP Morgan, right, Jamie Diamond again, here he
goes all.

Speaker 1 (53:42):
Right, yeah, And all I can think sometimes when I
read those is like, there's a pool of highly paid
people who wear much nicer suits than I do, because
I literally have one suit that I don't wear very frequently.
And my assumption is like, they know more than I do.
I'm an idiot by comparison to the hive mind that
they've got going on in these fancy New York office buildings.

(54:02):
But that's not even true, that's not actually true. It
feels like that's true, but it's not. And so those
predictions pessimism also sells like it's easier to trust somebody
who has a dour prediction than someone who's like, I
think things are going to be great. You just sound
like an idiot when you say I think things are
going to be great. But the truth is so much
of the time, especially when it comes to markets, things

(54:24):
are pretty good. So maybe we should listen to the
optimists like Callie a little bit more less to the pessimists.
It's not that bad things can't happen, and we should
be prepared for those things, but it's also hey, maybe
maybe don't assume that only bad things are in our future,
because there's a lot of good stuff coming around the
bend too.

Speaker 2 (54:42):
That's right, man, all right. The beer that you and
I got to enjoy during this episode was called Pineapple
Vanilla Milkshake IPA by whistle Hoop Brewing Company. What did
you think of this one, buddy, I'm gonna say this
one was okay.

Speaker 1 (54:54):
It was okay.

Speaker 2 (54:55):
Yeah, I'm with you. Yeah, and those one was not
my favorite.

Speaker 1 (54:59):
I picked this one up at the Physical Brewery in
in Ashville. The Physical Brewery really cool, A great place
to take kids. I've into this place. Yeah, they got
little soccer nets and a little mini miniature golf course.

Speaker 2 (55:11):
So it's called whistle Hop in the whole places train theme. Yeah,
so there's literally a train car that you can get
up in and we actually had the most fun sitting
up what's it. I'm sure there's some train nerds out
there where you like climb up the little ladder and
you're kind of sitting on the second floors looking out
the window.

Speaker 1 (55:26):
Love that did you get to sit out there? I
don't know what that's called, but yeah, they loved it.

Speaker 2 (55:29):
It's a it's a cool feature of a mode of
transportation that we no longer take advantage of. But the
hackers also go to Europe with the actual beer. Beer
was left something to be desired. Yeah, and I had
a good sour beer when I was there that I enjoyed.

Speaker 1 (55:44):
This one I just didn't enjoy as much. And I
guess the pineapple maybe felt a little fake to.

Speaker 2 (55:48):
Me, a little heavy handed. And the milkshake I pas
is a style that I've never been the biggest fan
of personally. Yeah, I was trying to go into it
with an optimistic forecast, but I was mo even wrong.

Speaker 1 (56:00):
It happens. It happens. You can't win them all. And
still cool brewery, definitely worth visiting, absolutely worth checking out,
and good beers that I enjoyed my other beers, but
this one not my favorite. All Right, that's gonna do it.
For this episode. We'll link to Calli's blog and some
of the other resources we mentioned on this episode up
in the show notes at how to money dot com.

Speaker 2 (56:20):
You know it, buddy, So until next time, best Friends Out,
Best Friends Out.