Prenups Are For Lovers w/ Aaron Thomas #743

We’re guessing that the title of this episode may have come as a shock to a lot of folks! If you’ve been listening to the show for a while, you may have picked up on the fact that we haven’t been the biggest proponents of prenuptial agreements… but let’s see if our guest today can change our minds! We’re joined by Aaron Thomas, a graduate of Harvard Law, who also happens to live in our old neighborhood in Atlanta. Aaron is a divorce attorney with decades of experience and his clients range from NBA hall of famers, to the average couple who lives down the street from you. He founded Prenups.com and he’s recently published a new book: The Prenup Prescription, where he argues that a proper prenup can not only protect, but actually improve your relationship. Today we discuss the increasing acceptance of prenups, the importance of marriage for society, the contractual obligations of getting married, whether a prenup does more harm than good, how to start conversation about prenups with your partner, & if a postnup is something you should consider.

 

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
Welcome to Had to Money. I'm Joel and I am Matt.

Speaker 2 (00:03):
And today we're talking why prenups are for lovers with
Aaron Thomas.

Speaker 1 (00:27):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (00:27):
So, I'm guessing that the title of this episode may
have come as a shock to a lot of folks
out there. If you've been listening to the show for
a while, you may have picked up on the fact
that Joel and I were not actually big fans of
the prenuptial agreement. But maybe our guest today can change
our minds. We are joined by Aaron Thomas. Aaron is

(00:47):
a graduate of Harvard Law who also happens to live
in our old neighborhood back in Atlanta. Little eav shout
out there. Aaron has decades of experience in his clients
range from NBA Hall of Famers to the little couple
that you know who lives down the street. He founded
prenups dot Com, and he's recently published a new book,

(01:09):
The Prenup Prescription, where he argues that a proper prenup
can not only protect, but actually improve your relationship. That's
what we're going to be talking about today, So Erin,
thank you so much for joining us on the podcast.

Speaker 4 (01:21):
Thanks so much for having me really happy to be here.

Speaker 2 (01:23):
Yeah, no, we're excited to have this conversation. Aaron, And
like Matt alluded to, it's been something that when we
get asked about it, we don't necessarily have the same take,
but I will say I was convinced in many ways
reading your book and hearing what you your arguments. But
the first question we ask everyone who comes on this podcast,
we want to know what your craft beer equivalent is.

(01:43):
Matt and I we like to splurge on tasty craft
beer that could be expensive, but we're also doing the
right thing. We're saving and investing simultaneously. So what's that
splurge look like in your life?

Speaker 4 (01:52):
Yeah? Yeah, for me and my wife, our big splurge
would definitely be travel. We set money aside for it
specifically every year, try to really make an effort to
take trips. And we you know, are frugal in a
lot over the ways we drive our cars until they're
dragging down the street. And you know, we're not big shopper,
but yeah, I'm a brown bagger you know when it

(02:14):
comes to lunch. But travel, Yeah, our that's our one
big thing.

Speaker 3 (02:17):
Aaron, as a man after my own heart, taking those
left over still work.

Speaker 1 (02:20):
That's right, Matt.

Speaker 2 (02:21):
Literally, that's his number one money saving tip is each
your leftover.

Speaker 3 (02:24):
Sy It's just such a there are so many unnecessary
expenses that occur, and maybe a little bit less as
more folks are working from home. But you go out
to the office, and then you are trading the most
affordable way to enjoy lunch, which is eating the food
that you've already purchased and that's already been prepared for you,
to the most expensive way, which is going out to
lunch with folks.

Speaker 1 (02:43):
But I love it, Erin, thanks for sharing that.

Speaker 3 (02:46):
And let's go ahead and just completely dive into talking
about prenups today. I'm actually not sure what this says
about the romantic sensibilities of Americans, but there's a growing
acceptance of prenups. I'm sure you probably saw and have
seen this data, but there is a Harris poll. They
found that exactly fifty percent of Americans now say that
they at least somewhat support the use of prenups, which

(03:09):
has risen quickly compared to previous years. Millennials are five
times more likely to get a prenup than twelve years ago.
Why do you think this perception is shifting so fast.
Why are folks just so much more open to the
idea of prenups.

Speaker 4 (03:24):
Yeah, I think there's probably a few things at play here.
One is for millennials and you know, kind of the
cohort of people who are getting married today, they saw
their parents go through probably the biggest, you know, the
highest divorce rate period of the nineteen eighties here in
the US, and saw the strife that came from that,

(03:46):
all of the you know, money spent, you know, how
long the litigation lasted, and they're saying, you know, no
way am I going to you know, end up in
that kind of position that I saw, you know, my parents'
older generations. And then I think there's also just kind
of like a difference in a generational difference in the
way that they look at marriage and that you know,
not that it's not romantic or not that they're you know,

(04:08):
expecting to get divorced, certainly, but that you know, practicality
kind of wins out, and that it's just kind of
the smart thing to do. A lot of the stigma
has resided when it comes to prenups.

Speaker 2 (04:19):
Part of that has to do with the fact that
young folks are getting married later and later in life, right,
and so they've built up more assets. So when you
get married at twenty six versus thirty six, there's a
big difference in kind of what you've been able to
achieve in your career. Maybe you've got a rental property
or two. You've certainly got more money, hopefully it sucked
away in your retirement accounts. So does that kind of

(04:41):
change in stage life stage of when people are getting married,
does that impact kind of how I don't know how
they feel about prenups and their willingness to partake in
one totally.

Speaker 4 (04:52):
That's that is a huge part of the difference. You know,
when you look at kind of the difference of last
generation in this generation, like you said, it is right
about ten years difference in the age that we're getting
married in today's day and age than our parents, our grandparents' generation.
So you know, in the nineteen sixties, when a couple
got married, the average age of marriage was about twenty

(05:14):
one years old, and a couple back then had very
simple finances, so they were likely to have you know,
zero maybe one bank account between the two of them.
Credit cards didn't really exist. Four to one k's hadn't
been invented yet. You could still work your way through school,
so there wasn't kind of the six figures of student
loans type situations. So, you know, the couple getting married

(05:36):
in you know, say the mid nineteen sixties or nineteen seventies,
it was like a startup you know, you're starting from
completely from scratch, and two people were coming together and
moving in together and building their life together. Whereas you
compare that to today's couples who get married on average
at age like thirty, and each spouse is likely to
have four or five bank accounts, three or four credit cards,

(05:57):
a retirement account or two, a car with an against it,
maybe a conda with some equity, maybe a small business, right,
and so it's so much more complex. You know, if
if the couple in the sixties was a startup company,
the couple getting married today is like a corporate and merger, right,
and you just you wouldn't do something of that magnitude
without taking little more seriously and putting some more thought

(06:18):
and planning into.

Speaker 3 (06:19):
It, which I totally get, and I'll readily admit I
think that's a part of my own personal bias. The
fact that my wife and I we were she was
twenty one, we were very young, had basically nothing to
our names and everything that we have created, it's something
that we did together. Let's we want to talk a
little bit about marriage. I guess that's what prenups are
all about to a certain extent. But marriage is generally speaking,

(06:42):
like you talk about just the legal realities of it.
And I'm curious if any part of you just thinks that,
like going through the legal marriage process, like, does any
part of you feel that that's kind of outdated or
that things are better off now that fewer folks are
getting married.

Speaker 1 (06:59):
I'm kind of us to hear your thoughts there.

Speaker 4 (07:01):
Yeah, I think my I think my views on this
have evolved a little bit. You know, I always looked
at marriage kind of you know, traditionally. My my parents
just celebrated fifty seven years together. My wife's parents are
still together, and so, you know, I've always, you know, personally,
looked as that marriage is like a lifelong commitment, as

(07:22):
a positive thing for society and for myself personally. I'll
tell you though, you know, being a divorce lawyer will
scare you a little bit when it comes to marriage.
I mean, I started practicing family law, you know, many
many years ago, and after a few years of watching
what divorce really does to people and does to families,

(07:46):
I started warning friends and family and anybody who would
listen against marriage. You know, I not the commitment. You know, sure,
get committed, you know, have a have a big party,
wear a white dress, change your last name, move in together,
but don't go through the actual legal relationship, you know,
the legal step of getting married, because people don't know
what they're signing up for, you know what the legal

(08:06):
you know, aspect of it is. Obviously, I've you know,
changed my view on it. I'm now, you know, happily
married myself, and I think that there is a way
to do it correctly. I just think that it is
much more complex than it used to be.

Speaker 2 (08:22):
So what are people signing up for that they don't
know they're signing up for? Then, I guess, because I
think you're right. Like reading your book, thinking through all
this stuff, I was like, why do people get married
in the first place?

Speaker 1 (08:32):
Then, and You're like, you're right.

Speaker 2 (08:33):
Part of me wants wants to say all these other
benefits of a lifelong partnership, but why does it have
to be marriage, at least in the state specific sense
of fact, you're signing up for all these kind of
legal obligations.

Speaker 4 (08:45):
Yeah. Yeah, So I mean what getting married is and
I call it the biggest financial decision that you'll ever make.
You know, a lot of people think it's you know,
buying a house or starting a business, but getting married
touches so many parts of your financial life. It really
is the biggest financial decision you'll ever make. And from
the day that you get married forward, every dollar that

(09:06):
you earn, that very first paycheck that you get after
the day of marriage is considered marital property, and so
it no longer belongs just to you. Everything belongs to
you as a couple. And this it really doesn't matter
whose name is on a bank account, whose name is
on a piece of property, whose name is on a
retirement account or a credit card. It's all considered, you know,

(09:26):
one pile of finances from the day that you get married,
and a lot of people don't figure that out until
they are in you know, unfortunately, a divorced lawyer's office
years down the road and they're saying, what do you
mean he wants half of my retirement? What do you
mean she wants half of the house. I kept it
in my name only, and I paid the mortgage review month.
And I would have to explain to people that, well,

(09:48):
once you were married, that was no longer just your money.
It was y'all's money. You can come from the South,
it was you know, that's money belonged to the two
of you. And so there was a lot of unintended
consequence and things that people own prior to marriage getting
commingled accidentally, and so you know, people are really in

(10:08):
need of like some clarity in terms of what it
is they're signing for, signing up for in.

Speaker 3 (10:12):
Mind, Yeah, I think there probably does need a good
bit more counseling pre marital counseling, right where folks do
they are able to enter into those relationships with their
eyes wide open. And it's interesting too, though, how you've
sort of changed your tune a little bit. And I'm
curious if you if you're a fan of marriage now
that you are happily married, and you're like, well, I've
got you know, I got a root for the home team, right,
It's so there's that, But then I'm curious too, have

(10:35):
you seen the Melissa Kearney. She's an economist and a
lot of research has come out recently regarding just the
power the advantage that two parent households have in particular
when it comes to raising up children. Right, it's and
it's not only it's not only like a financial advantage,
it's also kids don't get in trouble at school, they're

(10:56):
less likely to be arrested, they're they're more likely to
actually complete school. So some of those behavioral issues kind
of melts away a little bit as well, because I
feel like that, you know, faced with this new research
and data, which surprisingly there hasn't been a ton of
up until recently, it kind of, in my mind, puts
marriage in particular in a new light. What are your

(11:16):
Do you have any thoughts on that?

Speaker 4 (11:17):
Yeah? Absolutely, Yeah, And I am familiar with Kearney's work,
the new book about the two parent household and all
the advantages that come from that. I mean, I think
a lot of this we know kind of anecdotally and
intuitively how many advantages there are, but seeing the data,
it really is compelling. And you know, my kind of

(11:38):
reluctance when it came to marriage didn't have anything to
do with you know, being scared of the lifelong commitment
and all the advantages that come from an intact household.
I wanted those things for myself. It was really fear
of messing it up. It was fear of ending up
in a divorce. And you know, in my view, a
messy divorce was best avoided at pretty much any cost.

(11:59):
You know, I don't think that's that controversial for a
statement to say that you should do whatever you can
to avoid a messy divorce. And you know, there's two
ways to do it right. One is not to get married,
and two is trying to try very very hard to
keep your marriage together. And then you know a third
would be, you know, put yourself in a position so
that if your marriage does come to an end that
it is not kind of the expensive nightmare year and

(12:22):
a half of litigation in a very public courtroom that
I witnessed as you know, a divorce litigator.

Speaker 1 (12:28):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (12:29):
Now, I mean the older I get, the more I've
seen couples that I thought I would have like bet
money early on, there's no way that that marriage is
going to dissolve, and things happen right, and it's it's
really sad to watch as a friend but it's also
sobering right to say, like I'm doing my best here
in my marriage, but and I'm hoping and praying right

(12:50):
that like we're able to stick it out for the
long run, just like that's what you want, Aaron, But
you also see the sad reality of kind of what
happens in our culture. And it's not half of divorces,
but it's somewhere close to half of marriage is to
end in divorce. So I guess my question to you
is what do you do on the front end, right
the getting financially naked sort of thing, at the very beginning,
What sort of things need to be discussed as you're dating,

(13:13):
as you're like working towards engagement, thinking about marriage, starting
to talk about that stuff. What needs to be put
on the table on the front end.

Speaker 4 (13:20):
Yeah, yeah, great question, I am. And that's where you
have to start, is at the very beginning, you know,
before you even get married. And I am an advocate
of full disclosure. Due diligence is what a lawyer might
call it. Right where you get completely, you know, financially
naked with your spouse, which is sometimes more difficult than

(13:41):
getting physically naked with your partner. But by literally putting
everything on the table in writing in black and white.
That means creating a net worth statement for yourself and
for your spouse so that there are no surprises trading
that information. And I find that just that step alone,

(14:01):
you know, number one, it's something that a lot of
couples haven't done because there's there's no kind of natural
time to say, hey, by the way, i've got twenty
grand a credit card debt, or you know, I haven't
saved as much for a retirement and as I wish
I had. But it's kind of you know, you get
a little bit of an amnesty because Okay, we're planning
our life together. We need to you know, be completely
transparent in terms of what we're bringing in. But it

(14:21):
will also spawn what I think are very necessary conversations
about your habits. You know, how you view money, what
your kind of relationship was money growing up in your household.
You know, do you like to carry debt on credit cards?
Do you pay everything off you know month to month?
What's your investment strategy? And you know, we talked about

(14:44):
how much more complex people's finances are when they get married,
because we're getting married older But the other aspect of
that is we're coming in with a decade or more
of financial habits that we've built up on our own
since we left our parents' household, and sometimes that can
be the more tricky thing to combine than just the
bank accounts and the credit cards.

Speaker 3 (15:03):
Yeah, I mean kind of, I guess on that note,
this is kind of earlier on in your book, But
you say the financial dynamics within a marriage actually dictate
the personal dynamics of that marriage.

Speaker 1 (15:13):
Can you talk about that for a little bit.

Speaker 4 (15:15):
Yes, The you know, how your your financial structure is
set up can say a lot about what your marriage
looks like. And so, you know, I'll give you an example.
You know, I did a divorce for a couple where
the husband worked, had a good job, made you know,
two and a grand year, and his wife was home
helping raise their two children. And he made that kind

(15:38):
of money, he made two hund a grand a year,
and he gave her an allowance of three hundred dollars
a month. And without knowing anything else about that couple,
you could probably intuit some other aspects of their relationship.

Speaker 1 (15:52):
Yeah, allowance.

Speaker 2 (15:53):
When we're talking about a husband spouse relationship there right
exactly exactly.

Speaker 4 (15:58):
I mean, there was this really unequal power dynamic. She
felt powerless, she felt trapped. He was lording over her.
And you know, there's one thing that I've learned, it's,
you know, two spouses living in the same household but
in different socioeconomic classes is a recipe for disaster. That is,
that is not going to work.

Speaker 3 (16:19):
It feels so weird, even just the way, I mean,
everything about what you said about that couple, yeah, felt bad.
The allowance, the actual amounts, the fact that there might
be a couple and they're in essentially different classes does
not It's gonna breed resentment. Something about that doesn't seem
real quick for sure.

Speaker 2 (16:36):
I know too that you talk about how different states
have different rules when it comes to marriage and when
it comes to divorce. And one of the things actually
that brought me because I came into this conversation a
little more skeptical about prenups, But one of the things
that brought me around the most was that you basically
argue for the fact that we all have a prenup
even if we didn't sign one, and it's the divorce

(16:57):
laws in our state. It's the default essentially that we're
going to come up against no matter what.

Speaker 1 (17:01):
So I don't know.

Speaker 2 (17:03):
It seems to me that coming up with our own
bespoke prenup is just way to create a more set,
fair set of rules than just kind of throwing caution
to the wind whatever my state dictates or whatever. Like
talk to us two about this. In many states, it
can be like what the judge had for breakfast, how
they're feeling that day, how they determines, how they rule,

(17:24):
and how the assets get split out.

Speaker 4 (17:25):
That's absolutely correct. And you know, if we define a
prenup for a moment, you know, a prenup is really
just it's a set of rules that dictates how your
finances are treated, yes, in the event of divorce, but
also during the marriage itself. But when it comes to
you know, the possible end of your marriage and the
division of assets, you are signing up for whatever your

(17:48):
state's laws happen to be, and if you move, your
contract has changed. And very few of us, if any
of us, read the quote unquote contract the default prenup
meaning the law because of your state as it pertains
to your assets. Prior to getting married. Almost everyone only
figured these things out in the context of a divorce,

(18:09):
and so I think that the real there is real
power in deciding what works for you and your spouse
and your marriage based on where you are in your life,
rather than accepting this kind of one size fits all,
cookie cutter approach. And you are putting yourself in the hands,
potentially where of a judge who is randomly assigned to
your case, who could have views on life and marriage

(18:32):
and family and money very very different from yours. And
I have seen firsthand, you know, situations where you walk
into one courtroom and one judge looks at the situation
that says, well, you aren't all the money, and what
did you do? So, yeah, you're gonna get eighty percent
of the assets. And you go to the very next
courtroom down the hall and a judge says, I'm going
to split everything in this in this case fifty to fifty,

(18:53):
no matter what, and that that kind of uncertainty is
just unnecessary. When you can choose your your own rules
and kind of voluntary commit yourself to a situation that
you and your spouse personally agree.

Speaker 1 (19:05):
To, it makes a lot of sense. I think you're
making a good case for it.

Speaker 3 (19:08):
Aaron, you know, like the ability to have rules that
you know that you're playing by ahead of time.

Speaker 1 (19:13):
I think that can always be helpful.

Speaker 3 (19:15):
It makes me think of like sitting down and play
play one of the nerdy board games that we play,
and then like all of a sudden.

Speaker 1 (19:19):
Halfway through the game, the rules shift.

Speaker 3 (19:22):
Well, that wouldn't be cool, yeah, But being able to
agree to a set list of rules, I guess it
makes a whole lot of sense. And we're gonna continue
talking here right after the break. We're gonna ask you
some more specifics about pre nups, what it is that
they govern, how they work.

Speaker 1 (19:36):
We'll get to all of that right after this.

Speaker 3 (19:46):
All right, we're back from the break.

Speaker 2 (19:47):
We're still talking about pre nups pre nuptial agreements, and
we've got expert Aaron Thomas with us here to dive
into the details.

Speaker 1 (19:56):
And again.

Speaker 2 (19:58):
Us something I've been a little skeptical, but man, I
really am kind of coming around, as you know, listening
to Aaron talking and just reading his book has really
kind of shone some light on the necessity of prenups
in so many cases.

Speaker 1 (20:10):
But Aaron, I have this question for you.

Speaker 2 (20:13):
Does the process of getting a prenup does it ever
come back to bite couples, right, because I guess part
of my reason for not loving prenups as a way
forward is, I don't know, maybe it starts off your
marriage in this adversarial process. Is that like you're trying
to protect what's yours, it could come across as selfish
or a road trust in that relationship. Does does just

(20:35):
the act of getting a prenup ever kind of result
in a failed relationship?

Speaker 4 (20:39):
Yeah, I mean, great question. I think that a lot
of it comes down to your approach, right, And I
will be the first to concede that some of the
bad reputation that prenups have is deserved, right, because there
are a lot of people who have used pre nups
to kind of solidify a disparity in wealth, to solidify

(21:01):
a disparity in access to finances over the course of
the relationship. You know, prenup is really a contract like
any other contract. There can be good terms that are
you know, that are great for your relationship, or there
can be bad terms that are a huge red flag.
So a lot of it is in your approach. I
think that you know, if if it is done as
a collaborative process where you and your partner come together

(21:25):
and sit down and talk about what do you want
your financial marriage to look like? You know, should you
be transparent on the front end? Should you both have
equal access to money during the relationship? Do you both
have a say in kind of spending and investment decisions
that and it? Can you agree what would be fair
if you know, God forbid the relationship comes to end.

(21:47):
Can we agree will be fair while we love each other,
while communication is high, while we trust each other, then
it can be a real positive for your relationship. If
the only thing you're doing is protecting what you had
from your spouse going in, then yeah, I can see
that having a negative impact on your relationship. So you
know the devil's in this.

Speaker 3 (22:06):
That's when it seems like the terms are bad, right
because if it's only there to protect you, it seems
fairly one sided. But I guess, like my thoughts are,
if you can agree to these terms, then is it
necessary to have them down in a contract. Because a
lot of what you actually talk about in your book,
just the actual prescription part of the prenup are great

(22:28):
things that we recommend for folks to do all the time. Right,
Like you're talking about making financial goals for yourselves. You're
talking about how it is that you're going to achieve
those things. It's establishing healthy communication. It's just that you
are doing it inside the bounds of a contract as
opposed to, I guess, just a conversation that, in my
mind feels less I don't know, less loving, I don't.

(22:48):
I guess when you think about it from the standpoint
of counseling or goal setting or a couple's retreat, it's
to me that it seems more edifying as opposed to
the contract.

Speaker 4 (22:59):
Yeah. Yeah, so I think there are a couple aspects
to you know, putting in writing that give it a
market benefit over just having the conversation.

Speaker 1 (23:08):
You know.

Speaker 4 (23:09):
One is it's legally enforceable, right, that may be obvious.
But locking yourself the same way that you can kind
of lock yourself in to, you know, a disparity in
net worth or wealth with a prenup, you can lock
yourself into a fair situation as well and really kind
of protect yourself against your future self or your spouse's

(23:29):
future self. There are many people who would agree, yeah,
you know, we're in this together. Everything we're doing is
fifty to fifty on the front end. Unfortunately, you know,
when marriages dissolve, people are no longer in that same headspace,
and they're much more likely to act out of anger
and think you know that they should be you know,
shooting for the majority of the assets. And there's also

(23:50):
kind of this this weird thing that I've noticed even
in you know, good relationships like mine. You know, if
you're in a relationship and each of you are doing
fifty percent of the work, percent of the labor in
the relationship, it feels like you're doing seventy percent of
the work, right because because we only see what we
ourselves are doing. You know, I don't see what my
wife is doing when I'm not around, so it feels like, yeah, right, right, right,

(24:16):
But you didn't you didn't see me take out the trash.
So you know, I think that there's you know, a
protective mechanism there. And also, you know, putting in writing,
you know, there's something about making it formal, making the
process formal. One you've got something you can look back
on and say, hey, you know, we agreed, for example,
that we're going to sit down, you know, once a year,

(24:36):
we're going to make sure that we've disclosed all rassets
and debts and updates, and we're going to go through
an agenda of things and talk about, you know, our
spending from last year and where there any surprises, and
you know, what do we want to plan for next year?
Should we put away some money for travel or is
this year that we you know, buy an investment property?
And having that in writing, you know, reduces or eliminates

(24:56):
any confusion about what you agreed to on the front end.
But there's also the ceremony of it as well, you know,
I mean, we we do do vows when we get married.
We walk down and we pronounce what we want to
do in front of everyone that we know, and there
is real power in the ceremony of it. The same
way as putting something down on paper and you know,

(25:16):
taking ink you know, to the page and putting your
signature on it and saying this is what I'm willing
to commit to in writing, that I think makes people
want to stick to it. It gives them clarity and
they know that you know, you can't go back on it,
you can't change your mind. We've committed to this in writing,
and it's going to be enforceable.

Speaker 2 (25:34):
Sense of protection as well, right for both for both parties.
You talked recently about Michael Jordan's prenup with his wife.
I'm curious to hear can you like tell us about
that structure a little? But I also want to know,
right if you think that like normal folks, non famous,
non wealthy people, do they need like a similar sort
of prenup or like, uh, yeah, how should people think

(25:55):
about that? I think the most famous stories are often
ones of the rich and famous, but is that what
our prenups should kind of look like too?

Speaker 4 (26:02):
Yeah? Yeah, So I will put this caveat out there
that you know, when people hear about the celebrity prenups,
you know that is part of what creates a lot
of the misconceptions because you're going to hear it and
you're gonna think this has nothing to do with me.
You know, Michael Jordan has a prenup with his current spouse.
He went through his first divorce with his with his
first wife and paid out a settlement of one hundred

(26:25):
and seventy eight million dollars.

Speaker 1 (26:27):
I believe a lot of money.

Speaker 2 (26:29):
It is a lot of money, and I guess he's
a billionaire. So we're you know, we're talking in in
terms of percentages. Still he's keeping the majority of.

Speaker 1 (26:38):
A lot of money. Yeah, a lot of money.

Speaker 4 (26:40):
Yeah, yeah, it's it is relative. But you know, one
hundred and seventy eight million is a pretty penny no
matter what. And so with his current spouse, they have
a prenup that says, you know, for the first you know,
ten years of the marriage, if the marriage were to
come to in end, she receives a million dollars per
year of the marriage. And if the marriage gets to

(27:01):
the tenure market and goes beyond that, every year of
marriage becomes worth five million dollars. And you know, people
hear it and they may have some kind of visceral
reaction to it. I think it is something that for
them was probably fair. It probably works for them because
Michael Jordan gets the knowledge that he is going to have,

(27:21):
you know, the protection for his assets, which you know,
trying to value interests in Nike and you know NBA
teams and clothing lines would be a nightmare disaster. I
mean you're talking about multi year litigation that he'd be
drawn up in, you know, regardless of the amount of
payout that it would eventually come. And for his wife,

(27:43):
I think she gets some protection of knowing, you know,
if anything happens, I'm going to receive enough money that
you know, I can I can take care of myself.
You know, she is giving up, you know, kind of
her privacy for life by being married to one of
the most recognizable athletes on the planet. And you know,
you know, other people may have their own, you know,
views on you know how much it's worth, and it

(28:04):
feels very you know, so you can feel a little
icky because it feels very economic. But it is something
that for them gives them both a sense of security
that they clearly wanted. And so while that kind of
prenup is likely not going to work for you or me,
it is something that I think does work for their situation.

Speaker 2 (28:20):
Okay, let's talk about I don't want my wife getting
hundreds of millions, you know, like, although that's not gonna happen,
that don't happen. But Eric, I wanted to talk about,
I guess the structure of prenups because like they're not
just about dividing up assets when the divorce papers are signed, right, Like,
there are other like non compliance and trigger clauses. There
are contingencies that you can include can you share some

(28:43):
of the different examples.

Speaker 4 (28:44):
Yeah, yeah, absolutely, So, you know, I kind of look
at it in three stages.

Speaker 1 (28:47):
You know.

Speaker 4 (28:48):
The first is kind of before the marriage, so that's
the transparency aspect of putting everything down in a net
worth statement. Then you have during the marriage, and then
finally you've got you know, uh, you can call it
end of marriage. I call it akad the contingency compations
with might, which might be a euphemism. But during the
marriage itself, I think, you know, the first step is
to talk about how you're setting up your bank accounts,
and you know, not the same thing isn't gonna work

(29:10):
for every couple. But what I recommend is having kind
of three categories or three buckets of accounts mine, yours,
and hours and sitting down and thinking through what qualifies
as a joint expense for us. You know, so for
most couples, their mortgage or their rent, their utilities, their
grocery bill, the meals they eat out together, insurance, those

(29:33):
things are gonna fall, you know, pretty squarely into the
hour's bucket. And then there are things that you know,
I think can clearly fall into these separate buckets, you know,
things that you could pay from your own spending money.
So if I go, you know, out and have a
meal with my buddies and wife's not there, that's something
I would pay for my own expenses. And what that
does for a lot of couples today who are getting

(29:54):
married later in life. You can know that the joint
expenses are being paid, but you also maintain some level
of autonomy over your own spending and don't feel like
every time you stop by Chick Gilay is being scrutinized
by your spouse because it's coming out of you know,
the joint bank account. And setting things up in that way,
I think can prevent a lot of arguments over things

(30:17):
that are otherwise, you know, unnecessary. There's a couple different
ways that people will do it. My wife and I
do what's called the inside out plan, where all of
the income for the household goes into our joint account initially,
and then we each get an allotment or disbursement from
that allowance, if you will, but it's equal amounts for
both of us that comes out of that joint account

(30:38):
and goes into our separate accounts that we can spend,
you know, without any oversight of our spouse, and I
think that's helpful, you know, in my situation. It allows
us to do some spending that our spouse might not
agree with, you know, without having to worry about it.
You know, like I like to get my daughter, you know, nikes,
even though she's gonna outgrow them, you know, in three months,
and my wife probably wouldn't spend the money on those

(30:58):
kinds of shoes, but I get to do because it
came out of my money. And my wife has similar
things that she would spend that I might see, as
you know, potentially frivolous, but she can do it because
she's spending it from her money. And then when it
comes to the joint account, we have a rule that
says neither one of us can spend more than five
hundred dollars from the joint account without without agreement from
the other spouse. And you know, some people say, oh,

(31:20):
you got to get permission, you know, from your wife,
and I don't look at it like that. I look
at it as a mutual respect thing.

Speaker 1 (31:26):
You know.

Speaker 4 (31:26):
If I'm spending learn from the joint account, that is
something that impacts my wife. She needs to know about it.
And you know, rarely are we going to say no,
but it is something that we've ingrained into our relationship.
You know, this practice, this habit of communication that I
think yields benefits in other areas of the relationship as well.

Speaker 1 (31:42):
And that just makes sense.

Speaker 3 (31:43):
I mean, having those larger expenses is kind of like
having a couple sets of keys or whatever, like the
to the nukes. You know, it's not just up to
one person to make the decision. It's like, this impacts
a lot more folks, and we make sure you need
to make sure that there's a review process here. We
need to make sure everyone's on board at at the
same time. You simultaneously go there and turn those keys
at the same time. I think that can be healthy
for sure. I think one of the other things Aaron

(32:05):
that really kind of put me more on on board
with with your argument was was how much money a
prenup can save you. So, yeah, a prenup costs money
on the front end, and you got to go through
that setup process. But from everything I've I've heard, divorce
is just about one of the hardest things you can endure.
And even if your marriage ends amicably, it can be

(32:26):
it can be a really difficult process. Even if you're
still and still remain friendly. But how how bad can
a divorce be for your finances? And like a ton
of lawyers fees stuff like that. And how much is
that pre nup although it's you know, cost some money
in the beginning, how much can that potentially save you?

Speaker 4 (32:44):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, I'm glad you asked this. You know,
the cost of a pre nup, you know, is usually
going to be around a few grand. You know, my
office doesn't for you know, flat fee of thirty five hundred,
which is pretty going to be pretty standard. And a
divorce case last, first of all, it lasts on average
a year that was creeping up to closer to eighteen
months during the pandemic with some of the delays in

(33:06):
the courthouses. And the average cost is fifteen thousand dollars
per spouse. It means a lot of people pay a
whole lot more than that, So you know, if you're
talking about thirty grand for a couple, you know, and
there are certainly cases that go into you know, the
hundreds of thousands. I've worked on a case before where
just our client alone paid over a million dollars in
fees over the course of four years. Of litigation, and

(33:29):
the way that it kind of works is the more
money that you have at the time of the divorce,
the more likely you know your divorce is going to
be more expensive itself, because if you think that, you know,
taking your case to court can win you two thirds
of the assets instead of half, the more money you have,
the more it's worth to spend that money on the
lawyers to get you there. And so a lot of people,

(33:52):
you know, this is important when it comes to a
lot of people say well, I don't need a print
on because we don't have anything. Well that's coming into
the marriage. What makes the divorce expensive is what you've
got on the back end, which you can't know, you know,
until you get there.

Speaker 3 (34:03):
And your goal is probably you're going to have Yeah,
you're going to continue to throw your net worth and
you will have yeah.

Speaker 2 (34:08):
Actually, like if you're taking a vowel of poverty, then
maybe you two don't need to But okay, another question
for you on that front. So when we're talking about lawyers,
typically an individual hires a lawyer to represent their interests.
The when when we're talking about a couple who are
going into this marriage, they have a lot of the
same interests, but they also have individual things to protect.

(34:28):
Do They each need to hire their own lawyer to
get this to get this prenup done.

Speaker 4 (34:32):
So a lawyer can Yeah, a lawyer can only represent
one side of a transaction. In most states in the US,
it's not required that the second spouse hire their own lawyer,
but they have to have had an opportunity to hire
a lawyer. So that means, you know, not doing it
at the last minute, making sure that there's money there
for both people to hire their own attorney. Me personally,

(34:55):
I will never discourage someone from having a lawyer on
the other side of this kind of transaction because you
need to talk about you know what your fears are,
you know what keeps you up at night, you know
what worries you when it comes to, you know, making
these kinds of decisions about what your financial life with
your spouse looks like, and have somebody that can advise
you just from your point of view. So certainly it

(35:18):
should not be adversariable. You don't want to get into
a situation where it's a lot of back and forth.
You know, most of my clients will kind of, you know,
waive their attorney client privilege, so that everything that I
talk to them about is shared with their spouse, so
everything's done out in the open. This ideally should be
a collaborative process. You don't want, you know, you don't
draft an agreement and hand it to somebody a week

(35:40):
before the marriage. That's you know, icky thing to do.
It's not fair and it's not the right way to
start off a relationship that you hope will last forever.
But legally.

Speaker 3 (35:53):
Right, yeah, according to your book, judge might even deem
that to be unconscionable.

Speaker 4 (35:58):
Yes, a judge is likely to throw it out if
you try to that last minute again.

Speaker 2 (36:03):
Anyway, All right, eron, we got a few more questions
to get to with you, including what if you're already married.
There's such a thing as post nups. Should should all
of us married folks be be considering that? Well, we'll
get to questions on that and more right after this.

Speaker 1 (36:23):
We are back from the break.

Speaker 3 (36:24):
We're talking about how pre nups are for lovers, and
we are talking with Aaron Thomas.

Speaker 1 (36:29):
Aaron, in your.

Speaker 3 (36:30):
Book, you devote an entire chapter actually to the title
of that chapter was tact timing and talk and uh,
you know, prenups. They can obviously be a touchy topic
for a newly in love couple. But what are some
ways that they could start talking about pre nups without
completely ending the relationship.

Speaker 4 (36:50):
Yeah, great question. Yeah, it's it's important one, right because
you know, we know that if a lot of people
go to their their loved one and say, hey, babe,
I want to prenup, the reaction might not be the
most positive. And so, you know, the advice I give
might be a little bit counterintuitive, and but it is,
don't lead with the word prenup. I think we all

(37:12):
can admit that that word carries a lot of you know,
it's kind of heavy. But instead kind of leading with
what it is that you want to accomplish. I have
found that most people don't object to the the you know,
the terms of the prenup itself as much as they
do the the word prenup or the idea of a prenup.
And so you know, if you start with kind of

(37:34):
the component parts, you know, Uh, I think that we
should be transparent. I think that we should write down
all of our assets and debts and share it with
each other. I think that it's a good idea for
us to decide how we want to set up our
bank accounts and how the money is going to flow,
you know, through our joint bank accounts and our separate
bank accounts. I think we should have kind of some
ground rules for spending and budgeting and saving. Uh, you know,

(37:58):
can we agree that if either of just wants to
go to counseling, that we're going to go to counseling,
no questions asked. Can we agree on, you know, an
annual meeting where we discuss and update each other on,
you know, our financial lives and make sure that things
are still working because you can't just set it and
forget it for life, right? And then yes, can we
talk about, you know, God forbid if things came to

(38:20):
an end? Can we agree what would be a fair
way to you know, have our our money split up
that we decide and that you know, keeps us from
spending a year or two in a courtroom slinging mud
at each other and making lawyers rich instead of doing
what is best for the two of us. And if

(38:41):
you can agree on those kinds of things, then what
you're talking about is really the same thing as as
getting a prenup. Even if you know the the word
doesn't reflect that in your mind when you first hear it.

Speaker 2 (38:53):
My wife and I can definitely agree on not making
lawyers rich, by the way, that's something we can come together.

Speaker 1 (39:01):
As you're talking to a lawyer, right.

Speaker 3 (39:03):
Sorry, sorry, Well one of the things you talk about too,
is to do this sooner rather than later. You kind
of touched on this earlier, but kind of explain why
this is better to do essentially ahead of time as
opposed to after the fact.

Speaker 4 (39:16):
Yeah. So there's there's a couple of reasons, you know.
One is it is so much easier when you were
talking about potential issues that could come up as a hypothetical.
You know, it's much easier to say, okay, you know,
can we agree that if family members ask for money
that you know, we're going to limit it to one
thousand dollars, you know, as a contribution, and we both

(39:36):
got to agree. Or spending limits, you know from the
joint bank account. Those are easy things to agree to,
or easier when they are a concept rather than when
something has you know, has happened and it feels punitive
because they're saying, oh, you spent five hundred dollars from
now on, you can't you know, you can't touch the
joint account without my approval. That tends to be the

(39:57):
wrong time to, you know, have these kinds of discussions.
And given you know how important your financial life is
to your marriage, I mean, I think you guys would
probably recognize given your industry that you know, the fights
over money is one of, if not the biggest reasons
that couples break up. And so you know, being aligned

(40:21):
when it comes to your finances is mission critical to
the success of your marriage. And so this is something
that has to be done with a lot of forethought.
You've got to give it more time then you do
the guest list for your wedding. You know, this deserves
the kind of import that you would give any other
major decision in your life, like starting a business or

(40:44):
buying a home. If you agree that getting married is
one of the biggest financial decisions you'll ever make, then
you've got it. You've got to give it at least
as much forethought.

Speaker 2 (40:52):
All right, So let's talk to the folks out there
who are currently married, right, and so neither Matt nor
I have prenups in our marriages with our wives. Is
that is that something like it's called the post up, right,
So is that something that more people should be considering
And how do you approach that because that seems like
it's maybe an even more delicate conversation, especially since we
just like my wife and I just celebrated thirteen years,

(41:14):
that's a long time kind of considering everything equal for ourselves.
Do we need to put something down in writing? How
do you talk to people who are currently married about
this idea.

Speaker 4 (41:23):
Yeah, there's there's a few instances when people will consider
getting a post up. You know. The first kind is
kind of simple. You know, somebody who wanted to get
a prenup, but they maybe got caught up in wedding
planning or they drugg their feet a little bit, and
you know, it's knuck up on them, and so they
are doing it after the date of the wedding. That's
still you know, considered a post up. There are other
situations where people so to speak, read the contract of

(41:47):
marriage years into their marriage and they realize that they've
been living a way that is different than the law
would treat their finances. So, you know, there are couples
who have gotten married and decided okay, you know, I
you know, had a rental property coming in and you
had a house coming in, and I'm gonna pay for
my property, You're gonna pay for your property, and we're
gonna keep those things separate. And then they're married for
a little while and they recognize that a court is

(42:07):
not going to honor that kind of informal agreement between
the spouses and they want to just go ahead and
put it in place, or protect each other from debts
or when you know, one spouse has a business and
they want to make sure that that's kind of outside
of the marital estate, both in terms of, you know,
the value of it as well as the debts or
potential liabilities of it. And there are some couples who,

(42:28):
you know, they're on the ropes and they want to
give it another go, but they've had financial issues that
are part of their problem, and they want to correct
it with a prenup that defines, you know, kind of
their access to money so they're not in that kind
of situation where one spouse makes two undred grand the
other one has a three hundred allouns. They want to
fix some of the problems that I've gotten them to
this space while also saying, all right, if things don't

(42:52):
work out, can we agree now it's Fairwell, we've still
got some communication and some trust alive, so that we
don't end up in a situation like we've all seen
some of our friends go through, where you know, things
devolve and all of a sudden they're not speaking to
each other and everything is going through the lawyer, and
those hourly rates are starting to stack up, not to
mention the impact on kids and family and your lives

(43:14):
and the stress and everything else that comes from it.

Speaker 3 (43:17):
Sure, yeah, yeah, so better to do it ahead of time,
but better late than never, it sounds like, is what
you're saying. Erin so, there seems to be more cost
effective ways to actually go about getting a prenup these days.
Our prenups just generally more accessible. Are they just easier
to facilitate? Have loss changed or is it because different
services are coming around like yours right where folks can

(43:39):
easily find a prenup attorney. It's like somebody who specializes
in the creation of these. I would love to hear
your thoughts there.

Speaker 4 (43:46):
Yeah, yeah, I mean I think it's I think you
nailed it with that that last one where because they
have risen so much in popularity and people are more
interested in getting them. There are a lot more attorneys
who who are starting to specialize in them, you know.
Before you know, fifteen years ago, the average family law

(44:06):
attorney would probably do fifty to one hundred divorce cases
for every one pre nup that they would do, and
so they just weren't seeing as very profitable. You know,
you make a lot more money off of a divorce
than you do off of a pre nup, and people
just didn't have a lot of experience with them, so
it took people longer to give people what they wanted.

(44:27):
And over the years we've started to figure out, you know,
what are the best ways to help couples set up
their finances and what are the kinds of things that
couples want to see in their agreement, So we can
do it a lot more efficiently, and as a result,
it's a lot more accessible to people.

Speaker 2 (44:42):
All right, question, So I know, on some things like
a will, right, you could hand write a will and
you don't even necessarily have to have it notarized as
long as you have a couple of witnesses, right, and
then that will is legally enforceable. Right, you can submit
that in a court of law. There's a lot of
nuance to that, I know, but like, could you do
the same with a prenup? Is it possible? Do you

(45:03):
need necessarily the services of a blower? And I don't
want to sound overly cheap, but I guess I'm curious
to know, Like, have you seen people do IY a prenup,
write it down in like magic marker on construction paper
and have that actually work out for them? Or is
it like, no, you definitely need a third party to
help you figure this out.

Speaker 4 (45:21):
Yeah, yeah, you know. During my legal career, you know,
I've probably done more than a thousand divorce cases, and
I've seen plenty of DUIY prenups, and they're almost always
legally insufficient, unenforceable, So you know, I think one of
the differences with a prenup and a will is you know,
if your will is written poorly, you can always redo

(45:43):
it later, whereas you know, you get one shot to
do the prenup correctly. I mean, yes, you can get
a posting up later on down the line. But the
problem is a lot of people don't know that it's
not enforceable until they need to actually enforce it, and
they're in front of a judge, and so it's risky.
You know, I don't want to pay lawyers. I'm a
lawyer myself. I don't want to pay lawyers anymore than

(46:04):
I have to. But when I need something done correctly,
then I, you know, I go hire a lawyer myself
that is an expert in that thing. You know, you can,
you know, if you want to do some of the
leg work, you can. You can read the book and
learn kind of some of the steps to make it
easier for the lawyer that you approach, or if you
draft something on your own, I think you would be

(46:26):
well advised to at least take it to an attorney,
pay that attorney for one hour of their time, and
tell them to look it over and make sure that
the basics have at least been covered.

Speaker 1 (46:36):
Okay, Yeah, I like that.

Speaker 3 (46:38):
Get that professional review at the very least, Joel. Don't
just scribble it down chick fil a napkin.

Speaker 1 (46:44):
Okay, Eric. Last question for you.

Speaker 3 (46:46):
As a divorce lawyer, aside from getting a prenup, what
is your your best piece of advice in your opinion,
to keep a marriage healthy, to keep it alive and
growing and just thriving.

Speaker 1 (47:00):
Basically.

Speaker 4 (47:00):
Yeah. Yeah, you know, I've given a lot of thought
to this myself because I am a lawyer who desperately
wants to stay married myself. And you know, there's a
lot of debate over like what causes the most breakdowns
in relationships. Some people say it's money, some people say
it's infidelity. I think that, you know, at its core,
the root cause of most divorces is a breakdown in

(47:23):
communication that leads to the erosion of trust, it leads
to secrecy, and so creating kind of a framework for
your relationship where communication is your default. Whether it's about expenses,
whether it's about going to therapy, whether you know it's
about you know, what your needs are in your family life.

(47:43):
You know, you can't go wrong with putting an emphasis
on communication.

Speaker 1 (47:48):
In your marriage.

Speaker 4 (47:49):
I love it.

Speaker 3 (47:49):
Yeah, It's a good way to wrap things up. Eric
like a happily married man right there.

Speaker 2 (47:53):
Yeah, Aaron, thank you so much for joining us today
on the show. Where can our audience where can they
go find out more about you? More about you know,
creating a prenup that makes sense for them.

Speaker 4 (48:04):
Yeah, if you want to learn more, you can check
out my website. It is prenups dot com. There's lots
of free resources, you know, free ebook on there, and
obviously you can go to Amazon and you can get
my new book, The Prenup Prescription, which goes into much
more detail.

Speaker 1 (48:20):
That's right, awesome, Well, Aaron, thank you so much for
talking with us today.

Speaker 4 (48:22):
Thanks for having me on. It's been in an honor.

Speaker 2 (48:24):
All right, Matt, that's still a really interesting combo with
with Aaron Thomas talking about a topic that you and
I were probably reticent.

Speaker 1 (48:31):
To touch in a lot of ways, and when people
have asked us in the past.

Speaker 3 (48:34):
We've touched on it before in the past, but not
we haven't I guess, taken it on this straightforward sat
on And most of the time when we get asked
about it, we are a little more hesitant to say
it's a good idea.

Speaker 2 (48:45):
We want to kind of we realize it is a necessity,
a necessity for some folks, but it's also something that
we're we hesitate to be like give the Joel and
Matt how to money.

Speaker 3 (48:54):
See a level approval. Yeah, but yeah, I guess what
was your big takeaway for this combo? There's a lot
I guess that I'm thinking of now. But as you're talking,
I guess what comes to mind is the fact, like
the I think one of the reasons I've been hesitant
personally is it is difficult for me to say, oh, yeah,
this is a great idea, even though I personally don't
do that right. And so even though I know that
there are situations, but I didn't and I still don't

(49:16):
think I will though. That's the thing, like, even after
talking with him, like, well, you know, we'll Kate and
I go and get a post up, I don't think
we will. But that doesn't mean that it's not right
for some folks. Right at the root of a lot
of what he's basically talking about, Like I like at
the end he talked about communication, and so much of
what he is discussing, and so much of what goes
into a prenup is actual communicating. It's figuring out those goals.

(49:40):
It is, well, if this happens, what happens, then it's
essentially a great Like it's budgeting, right, Like he's talking about, oh,
I've got my money, she's got her money, and we
have our money, the joint money, and he's talking about
his the freedom he has to be able to go
and go out with some friends or buy some nikes
for his daughter.

Speaker 1 (49:56):
But if adding a layer of legal protection.

Speaker 3 (49:58):
Yes, but there are ways that you can do that
within a budget, Like that's budgeting, that's coming up with
a plan for your money. But like you said, yes,
it puts it within the framework, it puts it within
the package of it being legally enforcedable.

Speaker 2 (50:10):
So yeah, I think I've come around, and I totally
even though I did not get a prenup, I think
it is something I would suggest people strongly think about.
And I think the biggest two reasons are the fact
that it can save you a lot of money and
a lot of heartache on the back end of things
if things don't go as you hope and plan. And
the other thing is just that you kind of have

(50:30):
a prenup based on your state laws, and those state
laws are different all over the place, and you know,
whether it's a community property state or whether you live
in a state where a judge gets to kind of
decide the details of how things are div beat up,
you might prefer to have some say over that on
the front end then leaving it to chance. So I
guess I have kind of come around to kind of

(50:52):
Aaron's way of thinking on this one. My biggest takeaway though,
was on approach and if you're going to talk about
having a prenup so much, you're going getting married to
this person because you love them, and so you need
to approach a conversation about a prenup with care and
with love. And so if you're going to have this conversation,
if you're going to go in this direction, certainly make

(51:14):
sure you're treating that person. You're not being defensive, being selfish,
trying to protect yourself. You're trying to protect both parties
in this whole endeavor.

Speaker 3 (51:21):
Yeah, and you said it's helpful to not use the
word prenup. Yeah, but instend to focus on the goals
and again just all the other things that you're trying
to accomplish with the prenup. But maybe don't necessarily leave
with the term prenup, which could be such a loaded term.

Speaker 1 (51:36):
But yeah, awesome. Let's get back to the beer.

Speaker 3 (51:38):
Then, you and I enjoyed a Southern Hemisphere. This is
a pilsner by Second Street Brewery. What are your thoughts
on this one? This one was clean, light and fluffy,
is what I'm going to say. So I slightly on
the bitter side. I feel like some pilsners are either
slightly neutral or maybe even a tiny bit sweet, whereas
I feel like this one it kind of leaned slightly

(51:58):
more in that no better. Yeah, that being said, I
just had a sweet apple on my walk right after lunch,
and so I was wondering, is this having an impact
on now I perceive this beer? Perhaps, but there are
some biscuity vibes going on, I'll say, to very refreshing,
great one. This is actually this is another beer that
was donated to the show by Bob out there in
New Mexico. So again, thank you so much for sending

(52:19):
this one hour away.

Speaker 1 (52:20):
Yeah, appreciate you, Bob. Is that could be it for
this episode? I'll do it.

Speaker 2 (52:23):
We'll put linksin in our show notes up on our
site at howtimoney dot com, including a link to Aaron's
book if you're like I want a deep dive on
this subject now, this nerdy legal topic of prenups. We'll
put that up there on the site. But Matt, that's
gonna do it for this one. Until next time, Best
Friends Out, Best Friends Out.