Solutions for Money Anxiety with Financial Therapist Lindsay Bryan-Podvin (Bestie Ep) #1001

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Welcome to How to Money. I'm Joel, I'm Matt, and
today we're talking solutions from money anxiety with financial therapist
Lindsay Brian Podvin.

Speaker 2 (00:28):
Yeah, so there's more to money than just figuring out
the financial nuts and bolts right. Money has an emotional
and psychological component to it as well, which is at
the core of what our guest today focuses on. We're
happy to be joined by Lindsay Brian Podvin, who happens
to be the first financial therapist in the state of Michigan.

(00:49):
She is a social worker turned financial therapist, and she's
also the author of the book The Financial Anxiety Solution,
which is a workbook to help folks to stop stressing
about money by applying therapy techniques to your relationship with money.
So we're excited to talk about the thoughts and the
feelings behind money and how you can improve your financial

(01:10):
well being today, Lindsay, thank you so much for joining
us on the podcast.

Speaker 3 (01:14):
I'm so so happy to be here.

Speaker 1 (01:15):
Lindsay, We're glad to have you and yeah, this is
going to be a really fun, interesting conversation because Matt
and I we touch on this stuff sometimes on the show,
but We're no expert. You are, so we want to
pick your brain. But the first question we ask everyone
who comes on the show is what do you like
to sporge on? Matt and I we sporge on craft beer,
and so we want to know, while you're saving the
investing for the future, what's your craft beer equivalent.

Speaker 3 (01:38):
My splurges vary. So my partner and I do fun
money at the beginning of every month, So I usually
save up a little bit and then we'll go get
a facial or a massage every other month, but it
isn't always a spa day. This month, I spent my
fun money and a little bit of last month's fun
money because I saved up to buy a nice, shiny

(01:58):
new nos ring that you had the opportunity to see
before we hit record.

Speaker 2 (02:01):
So sorry, I did not compliment to the news.

Speaker 3 (02:05):
And it's some nice new bling, so I'm really excited
about it.

Speaker 1 (02:09):
I like that you you rotate it too, you're and
that you put it in your budget, but then you're like, yeah,
you know, whatever I want with it. The world is
kind of your.

Speaker 3 (02:16):
Oyster exactly, yes, exactly, And that's how I kind of
scratch that itch to be a little bit spontaneous without
blowing the spending plan.

Speaker 2 (02:24):
Yeah, make room for that item or experience or service,
whatever that might be. But yeah, I really like the
fact that you're keeping things fresh. But lindsay, let's talk
about financial therapy because it, honestly, it feels like there's
a massive need for money and for therapy to intersect.
It seems like so many folks have just a horrendous
history with money that affects them, you know, to this day.

(02:47):
But this is still an incredibly tiny field. What is
it that caused you to get into the space.

Speaker 3 (02:52):
What caused me to get into the space was my
own lived experience, which I think happens with a lot
of people who go into therapy. So I really went
into therapy because I have a personal and a strong
family history of mental illness, and so I knew I
wanted to do something in this space of depression and
anxiety work. And as I got into that work, I
got my first paycheck post grad school, and I was

(03:16):
making less than I was making as a waitress, And
the amount of financial shame and guilt and embarrassment that
I experienced was really really impactful. I come from financial privilege,
and I graduated without student loans, and even without student loans,
it wasn't like I was sitting on, you know, just
a pile of cash, and so when you're living paycheck

(03:38):
to paycheck, it became really tight. You know. I don't
have to explain to you or your listeners how hard
it can be. But what I found really interesting interesting
is probably not the right word at the time, but
interesting in retrospect, was how when I was so stressed financially,
how negatively it impacted my mental health. I have a
history of depression and anxiety that was really really well

(03:58):
managed up until that point, and my symptoms really came
roaring back when I was earning so little money, and
I did what I could. I read all the personal
finance books and basically they were all telling me, you know,
it's your fault. You just got to buck up and
work harder and save more. And I just felt like
there had to be something more to it. This was
also pre uber indoor dash days, so I couldn't just

(04:22):
like go out at night inside hustle, and because my
mental health wasn't great, I couldn't actually pick up waitressing
on the weekends because a part of my symptoms of
depression and anxiety was that I developed in Szombia. So
when you're not sleeping, your mental health isn't great. And
then also for me, it really showed up as physically,
like when you're not sleeping, your immune system takes a

(04:45):
huge nose dive. Right, So it was just this spiral
of one thing on top of another on top of another.
And I stayed at that job for a good amount
of time. And when I negotiated a raise, as I
was taught to do in all those books that I read,
I was told, you know, we can't give you a raise,
and in fact, you should be grateful that you have
a job. And you know, I don't say it to

(05:07):
be like, oh poor me. I think this is a
lived experience for many people, particularly for those who go
into helping or healing professions nurses, social workers, teachers. But
I realized like I couldn't stay there, even though I
loved the work that I was doing. I really had
to practice financial self care and mental health care. And
so when I went to find a better paying job,

(05:28):
and within probably a month, my symptoms started to quiet down.
I started to be able to sleep again. The treatment
that I was under before started to work again, and
it was this light bulb moment of as a social
worker when I was sitting across from a client who
was struggling with depression or anxiety. If they told me
they were struggling with money, my job was to tell them, Hey,

(05:50):
here's an eight hundred number you can call and they
will make sure that your heat doesn't turn off. Right.
I live in Michigan, so that's kind of important this
time of year, right exactly. But they were there were
short term solutions, and it also felt like I was
just telling them what to do, whereas in other mental
health care treatment you're really making sure that they're onboard
and that they are part of the process and that

(06:11):
the things that we're going to do are going to
work for them. So it just felt like this missed connection,
if you will, and that I was helping people with
depression and anxiety they had money stressors. I didn't want
to become a financial planner. I didn't want to go
in the advising room. I wanted to stay in my
lane of mental health care. But I wanted to be
more well rounded and more balanced when helping my clients

(06:32):
with their money concerns. And having my lived experience of
seeing how much more beneficial my own mental health care
regimen was when I actually had enough funds coming in
to practice self care in the way that I needed to.
So I found the Financial Therapy Association and the Center
for Financial Social Work, got certificates in both of those programs,

(06:54):
and fast forward, here we are today, and this is
what I do full time practice financial therapy.

Speaker 2 (06:59):
I love it.

Speaker 1 (06:59):
And you mentioned before we started that there's what like
something only like forty financial therapists maybe across the nation.
So this is not some sort of vibrant, booming industry
Like you are kind of a trailblazer really in this regard.
And I'm curious to a lot of difficult topics get
broached to the traditional therapy session. There are a lot

(07:20):
of things to get brought up. But why is money
such a neglected topic so much of the time in
traditional therapy even though we know that money causes and
poor money usage and not having enough money causes so
many problems really that we face. It seems like we
the more we ignore it, the worse our collective money
issues become.

Speaker 3 (07:41):
Yeah, it's a really good question. I think it's a
tricky question to answer because so many of us have
so little access to financial literacy but also the holistic
view of financial well being. When I was in grad school,
I didn't get any training on money, and across the
nation right now, only a handful of grad schools who

(08:02):
incorporate finances into their training for mental health care providers.
So I think there's just a huge gap in the training.
I don't know why exactly we don't address it. It
blows my mind because, as you said, there are really
difficult things that we talk about in therapy, and to me,
every single person we sit across from, either virtually or physically,

(08:25):
is going to have a relationship with money. So it
just feels like a huge, huge miss. And that said,
I'm not all Debbie Downer. I do think a lot
of schools are making some progress and incorporating financial wellness,
financial literacy training, and financial psychology into their programs. And
my hope is that, you know, in another few years,
I will no longer be just on the front end

(08:48):
of things. I hope that there will be more colleagues
around that I can refer to. You know, there's a
huge need for people to have this type of care sure.

Speaker 2 (08:56):
Yeah, So, I mean you're talking about your training, let's
talk about what exactly you do as a financial therapist.
Are you looking at budgets and spreadsheets, you know, like,
are you talking about retirement account contribution limits or are
you mostly sticking to the thoughts and the feelings side
of things as you're talking with your clients.

Speaker 3 (09:14):
Yeah, mostly hang out in the thoughts and feeling space.
But in order to get certified in financial therapy and
financial social work, we did have to do some of
the basic building blocks of financial education. And what I
usually think about is if it kind of stays in
the realm of education versus advising, I'm comfy being there.

(09:35):
But the second we get into which is better this
or that, that's really outside my realm. I'm obviously never
touching anything with stock advising, investment advice. I really stay
in the place of what's getting in the way of
doing the things that you want to do. What are
some things that we collectively can work together towards moving

(09:55):
the needle towards the things that matter to you. And
I'm also really comfortable saying, hey, that's outside of my scope.
That's definitely a CFP or hit up your works HR
rep and see if somebody else can talk to you
there about different retirement elections. So I'm also pretty comfortable
in my wheelhouse and referring when things are outside of
my wheelhouse.

Speaker 1 (10:14):
Gotcha. Yeah, And so when you're kind of starting out
with a new client, my guess is a lot of
issues that people have today with money in adulthood stem
from things that happen in childhood. I don't know, I
mean looking at my own career trajectory. So you talked
about your lived experience and how it kind of pushed
you in this direction. My lived experience of my parents

(10:36):
not handling money terribly well pushed me in a direction
at a really impressionable age. And look what I do
now for a living. So I don't know, how often
are you going back to kind of things that happen
in childhood to really kind of decipher how that's impacting
what's happening today.

Speaker 3 (10:50):
Such a good question, and I'm always going back to childhood.
We know that you both have kids, so you know
when your kiddos are young, their little brains are sponges
and they are soaking up everything around them. And we
were little at one point too, and what research shows
us is that by the time we're about seven or
eight years old, we more or less have decided what

(11:14):
we think about money. And so when you go back
to what was going on in those early elementary years
or those early childhood years, it makes perfect sense why
so many of us when we hit eighteen, twenty one,
twenty five or whatever, our version of becoming financial adults.
Is why we make so many choices that might not
make perfect sense, because if you think about your inner

(11:36):
seven or eight year old self driving those financial decisions,
it helps to provide some context and some meaning to
why we do what we do. And for those listening
who are like, well, my parents or caregivers never talked
about money, that is just as impactful as having grown
up in a household where you heard your parents are
caregivers arguing about money all the time. Right, we soak

(11:57):
things up, even if they aren't explicitly said. We soak
things up by the way that things feel when we're
in the checkout line at a grocery store or when
holiday cards arrive in the mail. Right, we soak up
the emotion in the room. And so when I'm working
with my clients, we often go back to that, and
then we're also thinking about the first meaning the first

(12:17):
time you got a paycheck, the first time you got
a job, the first time you got a credit card,
because those first also tend to leave a little bit
of a bigger, stickier impression, And so we also want
to think through what did it feel like the first
time you got a paycheck and when you saw how
much went out for taxes, and when you saw how
much went to Social Security, and then when you went to,
you know, go pay your first cell phone bill. Right,

(12:38):
all of those different things impact why we do what
we do now.

Speaker 2 (12:42):
Makes a ton of sense. And Lindsey I mentioned the
book that you wrote on financial anxiety. How can someone
know if they are experiencing financial anxiety because we all
deal with sort of like the day to day stresses
of oh I wish I had some more money on
to do the things I want to do. But how
does someone know if they're dealing with actual financial stress
as opposed to you know, maybe just a small lesson

(13:04):
for them to learn that, oh, maybe they need to
go in a different direction with their career. Oh maybe
I need to cut back a little bit all my expenses.
I feel like there's a kind of a fine line
between the two.

Speaker 3 (13:12):
Yeah, you're exactly right in that we all experience anxiety,
and we all experience financial anxiety. It's a healthy response
to any sort of stressor. And so when I'm talking
about financial anxiety, I'm talking about literally the physical sensations
that mimic what traditional anxiety feels like, because it's going
to feel the exact same in your body, so sweaty palms,

(13:34):
tight throat, racing heart, notts in your stomach, all of
those things that can kind of come along with anxiety.
And then when we think about the thoughts that come
up with financial anxiety, it's being worried, nervous, or on edge,
often ruminating on thoughts for longer than the amount of
time that the stressor exists, or kind of questioning yourself
or having money on your mind all the time, and

(13:57):
then those behaviors sometimes being impulsive, like oh, I just
I'm gonna pay all my bills right now without sitting
down and looking through everything, and then realizing that you
frontloaded and paid a bunch of bills, but you didn't
consider that your rent was due, and now you're short
on your rent. So to back up financial anxiety is
a normal short term response to a financial stressor where

(14:19):
it becomes problematic is if that financial anxiety is impacting
your ability to manage your money or engage with others
around finances. So, for example, if I wanted to make
sure that my paycheck actually went through, I might refresh
my banking app on the day that I'm supposed to
get that paycheck, and I might be a little bit
anxious while it's refreshing, and then when I see that

(14:41):
money hit my account and I go, who Okay, cool,
my boss paid my bills or paid my paycheck. Were
all set. But if throughout the day, I'm continually checking
in on that bank account just to make sure that
what I saw was really there, then that might be
a queue that we're tipping into more financial anxiety territory
that could use a little bit of help.

Speaker 1 (15:02):
Yeah, and you've identified a number of like false or
temporary solutions that we often turn to when we're dealing
with financial anxiety. Can you walk through some of those
and maybe explain how they can be like short term
fixes really and they're not actually tackling the root or
the problem.

Speaker 3 (15:16):
Yeah, So a lot of us tend to fall into
one of two things when we're dealing with chronic financial anxiety.
We either tend toward perfectionism, and the way that that
looks in the financial space is consuming a lot of content,
or we tend towards procrastination, which we're all familiar with,
which is just putting off dealing with our money stuff.

(15:37):
And so when we think about perfectionism, you might go, oh,
I'd actually choose that one when it comes to money,
But I often see perfectionism and procrastination being tied together,
where people are scared to start something until they know
how to do it exactly right, right right. So we
all know those people.

Speaker 1 (15:54):
Who are it just sounds better when you call it
perfectionism from doing the thing, yeah, A perfecting your plans.

Speaker 2 (16:03):
Yeah, we might have the set up a session.

Speaker 3 (16:09):
Yeah. It's it's really interesting because of the two. You're
bull spot on that we tend to reward perfectionism a
lot more than we reward procrastination. So for somebody who's like,
I'm really excited to start investing this year, but what
they end up doing is checking out books and listening
to podcasts and maybe hiring financial advisors, but not actually

(16:31):
following through because they want to do it just right.
We know the long term negative consequences of being out
of the market for an additional year, right, So the
short term is I'm going to learn everything, so I
do this right, which sounds like okay ish, but the
long term isn't that great. And then with the procrastination.
None of us really like feeling uncomfortable, So it's a

(16:53):
great way to put off feeling uncomfortable if dealing with
money makes you feel awkward or uncomfortable. So just going
I'm not going to do it, not a big deal,
But then over time it can become a bit problematic.

Speaker 2 (17:06):
You're just yeah, you're saying not today, and maybe never
is what actually ends up happening. Well, I mean one
of the other things. I think a lot of folks
think that just by making more money, right, like having
more cash in hand than a lot of times, that
that can that might be able to solve their problems.

Speaker 1 (17:21):
But that's just got that inheritance financial anxiety.

Speaker 3 (17:24):
But that's not the case, right, It's not the case.
It is true. I think we're all in agreement that
having more money generally does help to provide that additional
sense of security, and if we don't know how to
manage it in a way that feels good for us
and is actually sustainable. We've all heard those horror stories
of somebody who gets an inheritance or wins the lotto

(17:45):
or gets a huge settlement who goes through it in
a year, And it's oftentimes not that they're like, yes,
I want to spend all this money and have nothing
left to show for it. But it can sometimes be
this self sabotaged behavior of money makes me anxious, and
so a great thing to do is just to not
have it. And it's never that cut and dry. I

(18:05):
have this money. Money makes me uncomfortable, so I'm going
to spend it all. It's much more subtle over time
that can be really harmful when we're dealing with if
I have more money, everything will be better.

Speaker 2 (18:16):
All right?

Speaker 1 (18:16):
So, well, how can we dial down money anxiety when
it surfaces that maybe is for someone who is consistently
dealing with it, like some people might need to see
a professional and that would be helpful. Yeah, but what
are some skills that maybe we can develop on our
own too that can help us handle anxiety a little
bit differently and just kind of cope better as individuals.

Speaker 3 (18:36):
Yeah, for the perfectionist, I often like to think about
what is your good enough in order for you to
take action? So going back to this example of investing
for retirement, how much is good enough for you to
know to start investing sooner than later? And maybe you're like, uh,
I need to feel like seventy five percent good with

(18:59):
the information that I have in order to start investing.
But if you wait until you get to that one
hundred percent, it's going to be really really challenging. Same
thing if you're working towards beefing up an emergency fund.
Instead of saying, if you're a perfectionist, okay, I know
I need six to nine months. Maybe you start with
that four hundred and one dollars, right, and then you're
a dollar more than most Americans have saved. And what

(19:21):
we are doing there is we're breaking down these goals
into smaller, more tangible steps, and we know that that
helps with this positive feedback loop. If I can save
four hundred and one dollars, I can probably save another
four hundred and one dollars, or I have the capacity
to save more money, and we can start to kind
of build on that and then what that also does
is it tells that financial anxiety that kicks up and says, hey,

(19:43):
you don't know what you're doing with money, you better
just quit. Actually, I have an idea of what I'm
doing with money, and I know how to follow through
on it. So it helps to kind of build that muscle,
if you will, of financial self esteem. And then on
the other hand, with procrastination, oftentimes, I'm a huge, huge
fan of adding in deadlines to help with procrastination. So

(20:05):
a great example of this is, you know, if you're
going to just sit down and watch one Netflix show
and then you know, instead of twenty minutes going by,
all of a sudden, two and a half hours have
gone by. We want to give ourselves a little timer.
So actually setting that timer for twenty minutes, So if
you're super stressed looking at you, we're recording this around
tax season, if you're super stressed gathering all your documents

(20:27):
and uploading them for your accountant, maybe you can say,
I'm going to watch a show, set a timer for
twenty minutes, and then after that twenty minutes, I'm going
to organize my paperwork for forty five minutes, and again,
set a timer, and there's something about that time limited element,
and we can dial that amount of time down too.

(20:47):
But just saying I'm just going to work on this
for twenty minutes, I'm just going to work on this
for forty minutes, it seems so much more doable than
I'm going to get everything together that I need in
order to do this task. So having some outside param
or as we call in the therapy where some scaffolding
can be really helpful. And I'm also a huge fan

(21:07):
of body doubling, both for perfectionism and for procrastination, so
that means literally doing one of these tasks with a
friend with your partner. I'm a huge fan of focus
mate that pairs you with somebody else and you can
work on different tasks for twenty five, fifty or seventy
five minutes. And no I'm not sponsored by them, but

(21:28):
it partners you up with them in the zoom room
and you basically say, hey, for the next fifty minutes,
I'm going to work on organizing my tax paperwork, and
the person on the other side says, cool, I'm working
on an outline for my book, and you put your
heads down and get to work. So those are some tips.

Speaker 2 (21:42):
What was the name of that site again.

Speaker 3 (21:43):
It's called focus mate M eighteen focus Mate.

Speaker 2 (21:46):
I love it. Body doubling not what it sounds like
on the surface.

Speaker 3 (21:50):
No, I know, I know, I know. Or stun doubling right, Ye,
you're not quite as exciting. No, top gun action.

Speaker 2 (21:57):
This is so good. Yeah. And whether it's breaking these
things down into smaller steps or like we were talking
about earlier, it's sometimes we think that making more money,
that that's the solution. But we're going to talk with
you some more and we're gonna specifically talk about just
ways to improve our overall our general financial wellness. But
oftentimes it's not done in the way that you might think.
We will get to all of that right after this.

(22:28):
All right, we're back.

Speaker 1 (22:29):
We're still talking about solutions for money anxiety with experts
and financial therapists Lindsay, Brian Podvin and and Lindsay Matt
and I. We talk a lot about the lack of
financial knowledge that Americans have. You know, you talked about
that a little bit. Most of us didn't learn much
from our parents, or we learned bad habits when it
comes to how we handle money from our parents. We

(22:50):
didn't learn anything in high school. You know, that's becoming
starting to become more of a thing. Fortunately is financial
literary class. Literacy classes in high school. But I agree
with you. But you say that financial literacy isn't enough
and that knowledge doesn't equal transformation. What do you mean
by that? And what else is necessary?

Speaker 3 (23:09):
We all know to talk about something not money related,
what we should be doing to get quote unquote good sleep. Right,
most of us know we shouldn't be watching TV right
before bed. We shouldn't be drinking a bunch of coffee.
We should put on some pgs and not be scrolling
on our phones and getting all activated. But the reality
is most of us still hop into our beds with
our phone in our hands and scroll away until our

(23:30):
eyelids get heavy and we fall asleep. We know that
that's not great for us. So having somebody else say, hey,
don't forget, you're not supposed to have blue light exposure,
You're not supposed to have coffee before bed, isn't going
to make a big difference because that's knowledge. So when
we're talking about something like sleep hygiene, like going to
bed and getting good, regular quality sleep, having more information
doesn't necessarily lead to transformation. Similarly, financial literacy is great.

(23:55):
We do need that information, and information alone is not
enough to incite behavior change. Right, So, plenty of people know, oh,
I should be spending less money than I earn every month,
I should be starting a retirement fund, I should potentially
open up a five point twenty nine for my kiddo.
A lot of people are really good at regurgitating the

(24:16):
things that they think they're supposed to be doing, but
not a lot of us are very good at actually
following through. And so when we take that next step
from information into transformation, in my mind, this is where
we get into the world of financial wellness, which is
the ability to not just understand the financial concepts, financial knowledge,

(24:36):
financial literacy, but to actually learn how to make them
mean something to you so that you can sustain them
for the long term. So, to me, financial wellness is
understanding what's going on financially, but also creating a financial
plan that is sustainable for you, aligned with your values,
and making sure that it's not spiking your anxiety through

(24:58):
the roof when you're engaging with your money.

Speaker 2 (25:01):
Okay, then let's talk about practical things that we should do.
What stuff should we take if we're looking to improve
our overall financial wellness.

Speaker 3 (25:09):
Yeah, this is where it's going to be a little tricky,
because I know, let me just preface that most of
us know like the handful of things we should be
doing with our money in terms of having an emergency fund,
paying down high interest debt, making sure that we have
a spending plan that works for us, and thinking forward
to some of those big picture goals, be it buying
a new car or saving for retirement. However, what we

(25:32):
know is that do this than this, than this does
not actually work for all of us. So even though
let's take the debt snowball versus the debt avalanche, even
though we know the debt avalanche works better from a
financial perspective, we know that the debt snowball tends to
work better from a psychological perspective because it tends to
build momentum. So I like to keep that in mind

(25:54):
when I'm working with my clients. If they have a
ton of credit card debt and all so don't have
an emergency fund, A lot of us would be like, oh,
you need an emergency fund. But if my client is saying,
when I fall asleep thinking about that high credit card debt.
It stresses me out, I get poor sleep, I'm worried
about it all day. Then we may focus on the
credit card debt first. So for me, this is about

(26:16):
tailoring things to work for the person rather than tailoring
things to work for the what's right on paper financially,
And this can be really hard right to go, Oh well,
everybody in the personal finance space says that this is
step one, but I really am just struggling with step
five here. I need to put my energy towards step five.

(26:38):
Then me, as a financial therapist, I'm going to say
I'd rather have you do step five than no steps
at all. So that's kind of the way that I
look at it. So financial wellness gets to be defined
differently in terms of what people need to do. Usually
I'm trying to figure out what their emotional relationship with
money is in case that's getting in the way. So,

(26:59):
for example, if financial anxiety is getting in the way
of them looking at money, or if they have financial trauma,
do we have to process that before they can engage
with their money. And usually what I'm doing is literally
asking them how different financial interactions make them feel. So
it could be how does it feel when you log
into your credit card account and go to pay down

(27:20):
a lot of debt versus how does it feel to
send in your taxes versus what does it feel like
to make a student loan payment? And what we're starting
to do is figure out what are the patterns related
to each of these things, and how are they helpful
or harmful? And what can we do if they are
harmful to dial them down enough so we can take
meaningful action towards change.

Speaker 1 (27:39):
So the way you're talking about that, it kind of
makes me think of personality types because maybe maybe like
an engineer really important, Yeah, the debt avalanche, You know,
they might be thinking so analytically that that's the best
way for them to go about tackling their debt. But
for someone who's a little more of a free spirit,
they might need that psychological boost right that the snowball
method provides. So do you think that like knowing your

(28:01):
personality type is like a part of kind of figuring
out your money story and then a part of attacking
and getting better with personal finances. Like you have like
a financial archetype quiz on your site, which I thought
was really interesting, And so, yeah, talk to us about
the importance of knowing your money personality.

Speaker 3 (28:19):
Yeah, your financial archetype definitely helps to provide some insight
as to why we do what we do. And the
financial archetype is a modification of the money scripts that
was developed by a group of financial therapy researchers. But
coming I spent four and a half years in psychiatric research,
so I always keep my eyes and my ears open

(28:40):
when I find data like this. And it's not that
there's anything inherently wrong with that particular data set, It's
just that that data set wasn't particularly diverse or representative
of the US population. So for me, I kind of
took it with a grain of salt. And as a
social worker, we are trained to see people from their
strengths first rather than to say what's wrong with this person?

(29:02):
So I took some of that information, plus the information
that I was seeing in my clients, to go, what
are some of the strengths that each of these people
brings into their relationship with money. And so for some
people who may be more of your blissfully ignorant type,
they don't want to look at money, they don't want
to think about money. A lot of us would be like, ah,
that's bad. You have to look at your money, you
have to think about money. But what we often find

(29:24):
is that those are the people who tend to be
more likely to go into helping and healing field. So
we don't necessarily want to diminish that part of why
they do what they do, but instead we want to
think about how can we potentially dial down the need
to give so much of their time and their energy
without compensation. For example, teachers tend to be the ones

(29:44):
who are like also volunteering for PTA meetings and also
setting up the school dances. So maybe thinking, you know what,
you're compensated in the way that you are, and maybe
that's enough and you can say no or you can
give back in a different way. So just thinking a
little bit more holistically a about the whole person when
we're thinking about our relationship with money.

Speaker 2 (30:04):
That makes sense. Yeah, your personality is incredibly important. Your
emotions are also really important because on one hand, I
feel like they can lead us to unhealthy behaviors, right
like if oh yeah, like erratic spending for instance, Like
that's the negative side of things. But you also talk
about how like you do not want us to take
emotions completely out of the equation. Going back to that
personality archetype, I fill that out and I am the

(30:27):
money admirer, which which.

Speaker 1 (30:30):
I got toomstake prepper myself.

Speaker 2 (30:31):
Okay, so we're on that side of the spectrum. But
one of the strengths that was listened out there was
just the ability to be objective. Yeah, it comes to
some of your money decisions. So yeah, I guess how
do you find that balance between being objective and not
letting your emotions run the show? But at the same time,
you know, writing them, you want to attend to your

(30:51):
emotions a little bit, and there are certain strengths and
certain abilities that you can sort of glean and harvest
from your emotions as well. I'd love to hear you
talk about.

Speaker 3 (30:59):
That absolutely so because I specialized in anxiety, I'm going
to use that as an example quite a bit. But
when somebody's saying, like, oh my gosh, I'm just so
anxious that I'll never be able to retire, I often
ask them, well, what is it that's underneath that anxiety?
What is that anxiety trying to tell you? Because oftentimes
that emotion is trying to signal to us that something's

(31:21):
worth looking at. And with that client, let's say they're
so worried about retirement. Once we dig under that, they
might say, you know, my parent worked their entire life.
They never took a sick day. They kept saying like, oh,
that's for me in retirement. And once they were retired,
we hear these stories sadly all the time. They became
very ill and weren't able to do the things that
they wanted to do. So then we go, oh, okay,

(31:43):
so some of this anxiety about retiring is potentially related
to this fact that you had a parent who was
not well enough to really enjoy their retirement. So maybe
then we go, okay, how can we make sure that
you're enjoying your life now and saving up for your
future so you don't feel like you're in that anxious spiral.

(32:04):
So usually if somebody's experiencing something, oh, I feel so
guilty about the shopping spreed that I went on. Okay, well,
what's that guilt trying to tell you? And what are
some of the things that you were purchasing and what
was going on in the moment you went on that
shopping spreed that you were potentially trying to soothe with shopping.
So we can use those emotions as little clues about
why we do what we do. And so when it

(32:25):
comes to taking action in alignment with emotions that are
neutral or positive, we also want to bring those into
the fold. So if you're working on paying down credit
card debt, instead of just telling yourself like, I'm so
stupid for getting into credit card debt in the first place,
maybe we say, you know what, I put an extra
hundred dollars toward that credit card payment. That feels really good,

(32:48):
and I'm really proud of that movement. So just some
of those kind of loving reframes towards ourself can also
be hopeful.

Speaker 1 (32:55):
Okay, loving reframes is that how we get rid of shame?
Because I love it, Matt and I feel the same way.
We want to take shame out of personal finance. There's
a lot of everybody's made mistakes in the past, and
you're right, there are a lot of people in the
personal finance space who their initial go to if you
tell them about the mistakes you've made is to be like, yeah,
you're an idiot, how could you do that? And we

(33:18):
all know people like that who instead of empowering and
helping and pushing people in the right direction. They're just
you know, really kind of making them feel worse about
the decision or the mistake they made. So how can
we as individuals kind of tamp down the shame we
feel so that we can make more progress, because often
that shame is kind of like hovering over us and

(33:39):
it actually prevents us from making the progress we want
to make.

Speaker 3 (33:43):
Yeah, Joel, I appreciate you bringing this piece up. So
first I just want to do a quick differentiation between
guilt and shame because oftentimes we use those words interchangeably,
but they're different. And then when it comes to money shame,
you'll see why it's important. So guilt is an external
fear I did something bad, I made a mistake, where

(34:03):
a shame is where we internalize that guilt. I am bad,
I am the mistake. And so when it comes to money,
we hear that financial shame show up as I'm bad
with money, or I'll just never get it, or money
isn't for people like me, and those types of statements
start to then make it seem like it's about a
personal character flaw versus If we do guilt and we

(34:26):
kind of push it out away from us, and we say, hey,
I never had the opportunity to learn about money. That's
something I have the capacity to do. What are the
things that I can do to start taking ownership of it?
That really can be super helpful in making that difference.
So when it comes to money shame, we know that
shame isn't a great motivator for change. Telling somebody either

(34:47):
bad or wrong or dumb isn't us a great way
to help people change. But we know that having a
few things can help. So I'll lean on Prenee Brown,
who's a social work research sure that a lot of
us know out of Texas, and she has kind of
these four things that she says help with shame. And
I think that we can take these things and apply

(35:09):
them to our finances. So one is just literally saying
out loud what it is, what's going on and what
you're feeling, So naming that sensation. I'm embarrassed that I
didn't pay my rent on time, or I'm frustrated that
the negotiation for my raise didn't go very well, so
naming it. The other thing that's super helpful in dialing

(35:30):
down shame is external social support or validation. So that's
where online communities can be really helpful. Support groups can
be helpful. Talking to friends, talking to family, and just
having somebody say yeah, I've been there, or oh, that
must be really hard can help dial down shame. Education
is the other thing that can help dial down shame,

(35:51):
which is super interesting when it comes to financial stuff,
because as I mentioned earlier, we don't want to get
to that spiral where all we're doing is learning without implay.
So I would add on an asterisk of like education
to the point of good enough. And then the last
thing that can help with shame is making meaning of
the mistake. And again we want to use the word
mistake instead of I am bad with money. We want

(36:13):
to say, oh, I made a mistake with money and
making meaning of that mistake. Oh, you know what, I
didn't pay my rent on time because groceries are bananas
expensive right now or eggs expensive right now? Say yeah, exactly,
and you know it's a bummer, but things just happened
too much. And what did I learn? I learned that

(36:35):
potentially I need to check in on the foods I'm
actually eating and not overshop and contribute to food waste
in my household, and that may help me move the
needle so that I can pay rent on time next time.
So those are the four things that can help with shame.

Speaker 2 (36:48):
Yeah, it's not who you are, but it is about
what you did right, whether whether it's something you did
once or whether this is a habit that you maybe
keep going back to. And one of the things you mentioned,
I guess the second one you mentioned there those forms
of external support, I mean essentially us community, right, Like,
this is about finding your people, and you talk about

(37:08):
this when it comes to just general overall financial wellness.
How to money Facebook group, that's a place that we're
really fond of. But why is a community of like
minded folks so helpful for individuals? And you know, how
do you suggest for folks to find their own tribe
if they're looking for maybe something beyond an online group.
How would you recommend for folks to go about that?

Speaker 3 (37:30):
So, to answer your first question, community is important because
humans are social beings. Even for the introverts among us,
we know that having community support matters. One of the
things that we know as humans we need for survival
is to feel like we belong. So having community of
people who share either similar demographics or psychographics or goals

(37:53):
with us can help support us as we navigate through
the inevitable mistakes that we will make in relationship to
our money. And in terms of finding communities, I do
love online communities, but I so agree that it is
helpful to take things off of the Internet. And I've
had a front row seat to see a lot of
different ways that people can do that given my line

(38:14):
of work. So some ways that some of my folks
have taken the community thing and really put it into
real life is a money book club. So in my community,
there's a local money book club meet up where each
month they read a different money book and they chat
about it and they talk about what they liked, what
they didn't. I've had other folks who have an investing club,

(38:35):
and this is not over going in and buying crypto
and trading crypto. They more or less like kind of
play with investing. So they're invested in like your standard
no load index funds, but what they'll do is kind
of follow a stock for a month and see what happens,
just to kind of scratch that curiosity and be a

(38:55):
bit more engaged in the market. And then other kind
of Muny any adjacent ones to take offline are all
of your no buy Facebook groups if you can take
them on the offline, take on swap meets offline. A
lot of my friends have kiddos, and as you guys know,
with kiddos, they tend to grow like crazy. So I've

(39:17):
seen friends of mine who will be like, Okay, I've
got a bunch of one year old clothes. Let's all
go over to our friend who just had a newborn,
bring them those clothes over there, and kind of just
provide some space for that new family while talking about yes, clothes,
but also kind of providing some financial minded support in
that way.

Speaker 1 (39:36):
Yeah, that's great. I love it, and I do think
that the way that we can find community online is
really incredible. And for someone who wants to find their
tribe to help them with money questions they have or
with encouragement, finding people online is one part of the puzzle,
but it can't be the whole thing. And I think
you have to find people locally where you are who

(39:56):
share some of those yeah, similar goals and desires as well.
So we've got a few more questions we want to
get to with you. We want to talk about self care,
and we want to talk about relationships like relationship dynamics
and money and how we can make those better. We'll
get to those questions right after this.

Speaker 2 (40:19):
All right, we are back from the break and again
we're talking with financial therapist Lindsay Brian Podvin talking about
financial wellness. We're talking about money anxiety, and Lindsay, let's
talk about self care for a second here, because you know,
we think that self care it's important, right, but it's
also gone off the rails a little bit. You recently
made a video about financial self care and how it

(40:42):
is that someone can go about doing some of that
on the cheap. Can you share a few of your favorites?

Speaker 3 (40:47):
Oh yeah, I again I get this front row seat
to see different ways people practice financial self care. So
for me, I really think about financial self care is
the ways that you can take care of yourself physically, till,
emotionally and spiritually that may intersect with your finances, right,
And we know that oftentimes to practice financial self care

(41:08):
it might cost a little bit of money or a
little bit of time, So we want to make sure
we carve out that time. So the video you're referring to,
I did thirty seven different ways that you can practice
financial self care. And the reason that I shared that
was that it's not always you know, journaling under the
moon with candlelight all of your money manifestations, though it

(41:28):
can be, but it can also be. I automated a
savings account goal to have a little bit of money
move for my checking into a high savings account every
single month, so when the holidays were all around, I
have money available, and that's practicing financial self care for
me because I love gift giving and I also don't
like to be stressed around the holidays, right, So that
could be an example of financial self care. So there

(41:51):
are a bunch of different ways that you can practice
that I shared at the top of this episode that
for me, practicing literal self care is a part of
my financial self care. If I go get a massage
or a facial or buy new jewelry, as long as
it's a part of that little fun money bucket, I
feel like that helps me to kind of check that
box off. And recently, you know, now that I'm in

(42:11):
my mid to late thirties, how old am I? What
is time? After the pandemic, I'm like, I don't know
my partner and I, even though we're super comfy with
our money, we have instituted meeting with a financial planner
once a year just to kind of double check our
teas are crossed and our eyes are dotted and we're
on the right tracks of Sometimes having that little external

(42:31):
eyes on advice can be.

Speaker 2 (42:33):
Helpful, very cool. Yeah, I think it's important to reframe
it in that way, right, Like these are just oftentimes
you hear self care and you think of splurging, and
you think of the wasting money. Yeah, but what we're
talking about here are habits, and you talked about this too,
just how these are things that are repeatable, These are
healthy behaviors that will ultimately lead to in this case,
financial success. Yes, well, let's.

Speaker 1 (42:55):
Talk about relationships too, because I'm sure as a financial
therapist you never get people coming in and talking about
how they aren't able to communicate with their partner about money. Right,
that's nobody's ever sent that to you.

Speaker 3 (43:05):
Right, I don't know what you're talking about.

Speaker 1 (43:07):
Exactly exactly, but of course we know from the stats
that fighting about money is one of the leading causes
of separation of the force of issues in a relationship.
So yeah, what are you telling people? What tips do
you have for how couples can talk about money more effectively.

Speaker 3 (43:24):
So the flip side of couples who argue about money separate,
which is true, is that couples who talk about money
regularly report being happier than those that don't. So I
usually invite my clients into that frame of reference because
if they have associated talking about money with fighting about money,
of course it's going to be difficult. So I have

(43:46):
a few guidelines that I like to share with couples
who are trying to be more effective in communicating about
money and aligning their financial goals with one another. So
one is making sure you have carved out time to
have your money date, which means no drive buys. And
what I mean drive by, I mean no walking out
the door and being like, hey, honey, by the way,

(44:07):
I maxed out the credit card, talk to you tonight,
Like that is not a good way to effectively communicate
with your partner that you want to talk about the
credit card. Instead, it would be like when you're sitting
down to dinner saying, Hey, this Sunday, after we go
for our hike, I want to sit down and look
at our finances specifically, I'm really curious with how high
our credit card bill has gotten. So giving them a

(44:30):
heads up to understand what you want to talk about,
making it neutral. Instead of saying you wrecked up the
credit card, I want to talk about what you did
to overspend. You're saying, what can we do? I want
us to look at this together. You're giving them some
time to emotionally and mentally prepare for it. You're carving
out that time in space, and then during that time
where you're talking about that specific thing, acknowledge your part. Hey,

(44:53):
you know, I realized recently I've been grabbing for the
credit card more frequently than the debit card too. I
own my stuff. But also being cognizant of when is
it time to slow down that money conversation versus when
is it time to stop altogether? Meaning knowing your orange
and your red flags. For me, if I'm talking, if
I'm having a money date with my partner, orange flags

(45:14):
for me is that I'm getting a little snappy, a
little bit short with my answers. That's a cue that
I'm like, you know what, I'm hitting that orange flag.
I need five, And that could literally be I'm going
to go grab a glass of water. I'm going to
let the dog out, whatever it may be. But a
red flag is going to be when you're too heated
to continue in that conversation without causing harm. So for me,

(45:38):
that's when I completely shut down. That's when my short
answers have gone to non existent. I know I've hit
red flag territory and we have to hit pause and
come back at a different time. Notice how I say
hit pause and don't ever come back. I'm saying hit pause.
I'm not saying stop forever. So saying you know what,
I'm maxed out today. I'm really glad we're having this conversation,

(45:59):
but I'm feeling myself really kind of heightened emotionally right now.
Let's let's put a pin in it. We can come
back to it tomorrow, or we can come back to
it next week, whatever it may be. So those are
a few things. Is making sure that you're carving out
the time to talk about it, owning your part in it,
acknowledging your orange and red flags. And one thing about
having money dates is if you have them at a

(46:19):
regular cadence, you don't have to feel like you have
to do everything all at once, so you can say, look,
I just want to talk about taxes next time, or
I just want to talk about our five twenty nine
savings planner, I want to talk about where we're going
on vacation next year. So making sure that you're thinking
through those things. And I don't know if that was
you joeler Matt, Who's like, hmm ok, vacation okay. But

(46:45):
the other thing is thinking about talking about money as
a way to strengthen your relationship. So maybe talking about
taxes isn't like super fun and exciting, but maybe you
get the mmm when we're talking about vacations. And so
when we think about what would it be like to
be on that vacation, what are the things that we
want to do, What are the values that are important

(47:06):
to us that we will have met when we take
that trip, that also helps to add meaning to that
specific financial goal.

Speaker 1 (47:13):
I feel like so much of what you're talking about
here too, So many the way you use you the
ways you framed it are about being a team, yeah,
and not pinning everything on one person, but also like
you're talking about it as like you guys against something
else fighting to achieve something, as opposed to like you
and me against each other, and so much of that

(47:33):
framing I think is going to have a massive impact
on Yeah, the amount you're able to accomplish as a team.

Speaker 3 (47:40):
Yes, Yes, such a good point, because that's the thing.
I think. We come into these money conversations thinking I'm
right and you're wrong or whatever versus. The goal is
to make sure that we have enough money to do
the things that we want to do, so we can
practice financial self care and have a healthy relationship with money,
because money is that tool that affords us the ability

(48:01):
to do the other things that we want to do.
So if we're on the same team, if we're collaborating
towards that goal, then it is like encouraging one another
and cheering each other on and being duo, like a
duo as you work towards this goal. So it's so
so important to make sure you're talking about it and
you're you're on the same page.

Speaker 2 (48:21):
Yeah, And I think finding some balance in those conversations
as well too. I mean, you know you mentioned vacation,
you're mentioning taxes. If if all you do is talk
about the taxes side of things, right, if you're only
talking about your debt and how underwater y'all are. If
you're only talking about your credit card statements and how
they're just like five six, seven, eight pages long, now,
that's going to be difficult to get the get your

(48:42):
partner excited. On the contrary, if you're only talking about
the things that you want to achieve, I guess all
the fun things. I think there can be a lack
of where the rubber meets the road when it comes
to those conversations and it's like, well that's that sounds
great and all, but how do we actually get there?
It takes that combination of both, and that's what you're
talking about here. So last question, you know, again, the
financial therapy industry, it seems like it's still in its

(49:03):
infancy and we talk through a lot of tips. You've
given a lot of great information here where folks can
kind of take that information and just enact it within
their own lives. But how can folks find an actual
financial therapist if that's what they're looking for.

Speaker 3 (49:16):
So a great way to find a financial therapist is
obviously you can type in financial therapists plus my state.
You know, Google will do it's magic there. The Financial
Therapy Association has a directory of financial therapists. But the
asterisk I will include here is that anybody can be
a member of the Financial Therapy Association, So some people

(49:36):
are financial planners who don't necessarily have a certificate in
financial therapy. But at least you're narrowing in on the
types of people who are interested in practicing holistic financial planning.
So you know, as I said, hopefully more and more
people will be on that directory as time goes on,
But for now, you can turn to Google, you can
turn to the Financial Therapy Association directory to try and

(49:59):
find somebody, and a lot of financial planners do have
that holistic view, so you can can read through some
of those bios and see if there might be somebody
who kind of fits the bill.

Speaker 1 (50:08):
Gotcha, Lindsey, this has been such an awesome conversation. Thank
you so much for joining us. Where can our listeners
find out more about you and what you're up to.

Speaker 3 (50:16):
My business is called Mind Money Balance. My website, podcast, YouTube,
Instagram are all of the same names, so you can
come chat with me in any of those places, And
as Joel and Matt mentioned, my quiz is free. It's
Mindmneybalance dot com, slash quiz if you want to learn
more about your financial archetype.

Speaker 2 (50:33):
That's right. Well, we will make sure to point folks
to all of those different links. Lindsay, thank you for
joining us today.

Speaker 1 (50:39):
Thank you all right, Matt, what a great conversation. And
you know, you and I we try not to just
talk about the nuts and bolts of money. I'll just
be over here making the weird noises as you do. Yeah,
it does get weird sometimes, but you know, you and
I were often talking about nuts and bolts. We try
to incorporate other elements. We try to talk about psychology
and motivation, and we try to make sure that we're

(50:59):
running the full game. But this is a place where
we're really out of our depths, and so I'm glad
we were able to bring Lindsay on to discuss some
of the finer points of dealing with financial anxiety and
handling money better from an emotional standpoint. What what was
your big takeaway from this conversation.

Speaker 2 (51:13):
Yeah, well, since tomorrow is Valentine's Day, Happy v Day
to everyone out there, I'm going to focus on I
guess maybe the relationals. Like towards the end of the conversation,
they were talking about relationships, and specifically she was talking
about money dates and the way that you make those
successful is that you carve out the time on your
calendar to make sure that that is something that is

(51:33):
going to happen. I look back on my life and
the most some of the most successful things that I've
ever been able to accomplish is because I scheduled it,
like literally, because it was on the calendar. Whether it
was something that was somewhat passive and more automated aka
repeat every week, or whether it was just looking ahead
and saying, hey, let's talk about this once this date

(51:54):
rolls around. And so it just takes being intentional. And
I like what she said, what Lindsay was saying about,
like money conversations can't buy this can't be this drive
by thing. It can't be this thing where you're just like, oh, hey,
by the way, we're over our limit on our twenty
thousand dollars card. Let's talk about that. Sometime it takes
being intentional, getting a date on the calendar, allowing the

(52:14):
other partner to have some time to process, oh, hey,
we are going to talk about money, not to get
anxious about it, but for them to realize oh okay, cool,
Let's let's make sure we've got the right information, the
right data, glass of wine, maybe crack open a nice beer,
that kind of thing to make it fun as well.

Speaker 1 (52:28):
Yeah, And if you're a single person and if it's
on your calendar, it's more likely to happen. And if
you are a couple and it's on your shared calendar,
is way more likely to But if you're just hey,
maybe this weekend sometime, let's let's get around to it,
probably not gonna happen because there's other steff that's going
to take the place. So I like setting it in
stone somewhere on your calendar.

Speaker 2 (52:44):
I think that's being intentional.

Speaker 3 (52:45):
Man.

Speaker 1 (52:45):
Yeah, all right, so I think about you that. My
big takeaway was when she said what is your good enough?
And I was like, dang, that's good. Yeah, that's really
because I think there's so many times in life where
we say like, yeah, I want to do that, and
this happens a lot, I would say, with people who
want to invest in real estate and they are saying,
but I gotta know every single this and or butt,

(53:06):
and until I get to that point like there's no
way I can jump into this and at some point
you have to say, all right, I've done my due diligence.
You have to do your due diligence, right, you have
to read a book, you have to kind of know
what you're doing. You have to crunch numbers. But at
some point, like they're a certain.

Speaker 2 (53:20):
Point, you got to put an offer in on the
house and you just got to own that second property.

Speaker 1 (53:24):
That's right. Yeah, at some point you have to do it.
And so I think you got to figure out what
you're good enough is. You can learn all of the
many hundreds of reasons why in investing in index funds
inside of your foree K is a good thing for
your financial future. But you could also learn just a
few things and say that's good enough. That's good enough.
I know enough to at least get started, and you

(53:44):
can always go back and learn more on the back end,
which I think is good. It's kind of fun to
now that you're started, get even deeper. Yeah, but you
got to get started.

Speaker 2 (53:53):
Once you got some of that skin in the game,
it becomes way more real and there's just lessons that
you learn from having skin in the game, right from
having started and opened that roth I ray, from having
initiating that transaction, all of those things that you learn
along the way. Yeah, that's when she was talking about
how essentially like perfectionism, it's the flip side of procrastination. Yeah,
and that one stung a little.

Speaker 1 (54:13):
Bit because that's totally my totally my Linda, you just
like open your guts, appeared into your soul.

Speaker 2 (54:19):
Right. Then maybe she'll she'll caught me that first session
that she mentioned calling you out publicly. I'm totally fine
with it. I would not have mentioned it if I wasn't.
But let's go ahead and get to the beer that
you and I enjoyed during this episode. This was a
Mexican logger. This was by High Cotton Brewing. What were
your thoughts on this one? But my first thought was

(54:41):
you forgot to bring the lime, dude. Okay, so that's
on you. Hey, if you need lime with your beer
to enjoy it, you you're drinking the wrong beer.

Speaker 1 (54:48):
But it's a Mexican logger. That's the only beer you're
supposed to put a lit right, well supposedly, Yeah, if
you're into that. Well, So this one was like really
really crisp. I thought it was, Yeah, just like that's
the old that's the best adject if I have to
describe this one. It definitely tastes it like a Mexican lager,
but maybe a slightly finer craft beer or version of
a Mexican lagger. And so, yeah, I did not need

(55:09):
a lime, but I would be interested to see what
it takes it like with one. Yeah, I had that snap.
It like makes me think of like a just.

Speaker 2 (55:16):
A fresh head of iceberg lettuce and you're just like crunch, Yeah, yeah,
exactly for me, Like I feel like it almost had
like some white wine qualities to it, And some Mexican
lagers don't typically have all a ton of depth, but
this one, I don't know. It was crisp, but simultaneously
it kind of had what i'll oftentimes, So is it
is it Pinogriggio? Is that that's a that's a type

(55:37):
of white one the wrong guy? Yeah, No, it is
a type of wine. I do know that. That's so
that's the kind that sometimes is described as like smelling
or even tasting like a new garden hose or like
a fresh cane of tennis balls. This beer, I felt like,
this beer totally also have that, And it's not a
negative thing, just the flavors. It's not like when we
say barnyard funk with a Sason. It's like some people

(55:58):
will be like gross, no, no, no, it's actually yeah, it's
kind of a weird description, but it's also a way
to kind of describe what you're tasting. I like the funk, yeah, personally, absolutely.
But this was a fantastic beer. I'm glad this was
one that you were able to pick up for us. Mate.

Speaker 1 (56:11):
Actually, this was my brother in law and sister in
law they got to today. Yeah, so thanks to Ben
and Rachel for grabbing this per long.

Speaker 2 (56:17):
Because they're up there in Memphis, which is where this
beer is brewed. Yeah, thank you both Ben and Rachel
for donating this one to the show. But Joel, that's
going to be it for this episode. We'll make sure
to link to us some of the different resources that
Lindsay shared there at the end of our conversation. You
can find those up on our website at howdomoney dot com.
Maybe take that financial archetype quiz and let us know

(56:40):
it was interesting and it was accurate. Yeah, yeah, it
really was. It's funny. Oftentimes you read those and you're like,
how how did they know? But Yeah, it's a lot
of fun, but that's going to be it for this
episode until next time. Best Friends Out, best Friends Out

(57:01):
the the

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Joel Larsgaard

Matthew Altmix

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