The Diminishing Returns of Frugality (Bestie Ep) #1011

Have you ever eaten so much dessert that you thought you might puke? Or maybe you find yourself at the end of a shopping spree with too many clothes in your closet than you could ever possibly wear? In both cases we’re talking about the diminishing marginal utility that we receive from each additional item we consume- the first cup of water after a run is wonderful, but the fifteenth... less so! Diminishing returns is a common way to describe this phenomenon, and we want you to know that this applies to frugality as well. There’s a certain subset of folks who think that the best way to handle their money is to be frugal to the max. And while we would even call ourselves a couple of frugal fellas, it’s important to point out that it’s not a financial tool that fixes everything. So while we’ll be the first to point out how frugality can make you wealthier due to how quickly you can implement it and it’s long-term implications, we’re also not shy about highlighting its downsides: how it can be the result of a fear driven mindset, how focusing on expenses can distract you from thinking about income, how it can lead to a miserly existence. There’s a way you can develop a healthy embrace of frugality and that’s what we’re discussing today!

 

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During this episode we enjoyed The Void of Perspective That Became You and Me by Burial. And please help us to spread the word by letting friends and family know about How to Money! Hit the share button, subscribe if you’re not already a regular listener, and give us a quick review in Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. Help us to change the conversation around personal finance and get more people doing smart things with their money!

 

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
Welcome to Had of Money. I'm Joel and I am Matt,
and today we're discussing the diminishing returns of frugality.

Speaker 2 (00:26):
That's right, Joe, Just like you learned at a very
young age that there's only so much candy that you
can eat before your tummy starts to hurt.

Speaker 1 (00:32):
I still remember getting a five pound bag of runs
from I think it was Sam's fall back in the
day he rose. But the one thing some people love
the banana runs. The banana Oh see, you picked all
the banana runs. I talked about this before you and
we would have been a good combo even at a
very young age. Yes, no, we So we are talking
about frugality, which, in my mind is sort of like
this superpower. It's this universal tool that you could apply

(00:53):
to almost any area of your life, but it does
have its limitations. If you lean into it too hard,
you are going to see some of those diminishing returns.

Speaker 2 (01:02):
And so that's what we're going to talk about today,
the proper way to approach this idea of frugality. But man,
you know, I was actually real quick before we get
started here talking about that. I was thinking about our wives,
the ladies they got together took all the kids evidently
to Whitewater today. For those who aren't around Atlanta, that's
our our local water park, water Slides.

Speaker 1 (01:21):
I think people around the way TrooLS or at least
around the least they know about this water park because
it's on like a travel channel Top ten water parks
in the country and stuff like that.

Speaker 2 (01:29):
Is it really yeah, oh yeah, I haven't been in
maybe like back. I feel like it's kind of past
its prime a little bit. Yeah, they could spend some
money on it and make it a little bit Well,
I haven't been back yet.

Speaker 1 (01:38):
We just got the season passes, but I'm looking forward
to checking it out with the kids because it's been
probably twenty five years since I've been.

Speaker 2 (01:43):
Yeah yeah, okay, So the reason I wanted to bring
it up was because I think it's worth considering. So
it's summer activity season, right, like kids are out of school,
and as you go to different theme parks and different
you know, like the museum, different things like that, they
always have like, hey, you could spend this much money
on a single ticket, or you can get the season
pass for this much more. And this is just a

(02:04):
quick tip for everyone out there, actually do the math
and see whether or not it makes sense for you
to spend a little bit more now if you're actually
going to take advantage of that season pass or like
an extended pass, like y'all just got the like through
the end of the summer pass or whatever.

Speaker 1 (02:18):
Yes, it's like a few months worth for a much
cheaper rate. But we're like, all right, if we just honestly,
if we go two times, it pays her.

Speaker 2 (02:25):
Yes, I saw that. So literally it's thirty with six flags,
it's thirty five dollars a ticket, or you spend sixty
dollars at this extended pass, and so we don't want
folks to miss out on that. But the thing is,
it's only a deal if you actually take advantage of it.
And so if you're geting, you might not want to
get like six season passes, like yeah, pick one or

(02:45):
two right, and then like using abuse those things and
then get something else next. Nore. That's the thing I
think that's a good strategy is the ability to focus
on Like back when we're living in town, we got
that zoom membership hit that pretty NonStop. Back when we
had a fern Bank Museum membership, we would do that NonStop.
You don't need to do them all, but yeah, focus
on one. Maximize the value that you're getting out of that.
We were actually we were at Atlanta Potanical Gardens earlier

(03:09):
this week, and it was fun to run into a listener.
There's a teacher there from Gainesville. Nice. She heard me
talking to one of the girls and she says, wait
a minute, voice. It's always fun when that happens. It
doesn't happen a ton, so it's still kind of this
novelty I guess that you and I can enjoy. But yeah,
shout out to she was super nice. So cool anyway,

(03:30):
But I do think that is a good strategy. Don't
spread yourself too thin. Focus on a few season passes
or memberships where you are going to be able to
maximize that value for sure.

Speaker 1 (03:39):
Yeah, and then next year make it the year of
the Zoo Potanic Gardens aquarium, like switch it off and
then don't forget. Obviously you've never done the aquarium before.

Speaker 2 (03:47):
It's great.

Speaker 1 (03:47):
The downside of the aquarium is you have to pay
for parking every time, or you just have to like
find a free parking place to park and walk quit away.

Speaker 2 (03:54):
So and hope your car still there?

Speaker 1 (03:57):
Exactly, Put Natty, where are all the wheels? It's cheap
if you get towed, it's not if you don't, right,
But yeah, no, I think that's a good tip. And
it's always fun to rotate, try something different, you know,
not do the same thing here after a year. And
don't forget too fourth graders. You get your whole family
into national parks for free. So if you have a
fourth grader, get that free national park pass and maybe

(04:17):
make it the year of like a bunch of National
park visits. That's a good way to kind of plan
your summer or your year plan.

Speaker 2 (04:23):
On the summer.

Speaker 1 (04:24):
Yeah, exactly, I love it. All right, Well, let's mention
the beer we're having on this episode, Matt. This one's
called The Void of Perspective that became you and me
by Burial Brewing.

Speaker 2 (04:31):
No surprise by Burial. Yeah yet to get with a
name like that, you know, this is a Burial.

Speaker 1 (04:37):
Beer, so ridiculously intense names.

Speaker 2 (04:39):
We are continuing our tour of amazing IPAs from Burial.
We will share our thoughts at the end of this episode,
for sure.

Speaker 1 (04:46):
All right, let's move on to the subject at hand, though, Matt.
We're talking about the diminishing returns of frugality. How frugality rocks,
but it has its limits, right, And even though I'm
not super fashion conscious, Matt, I still like clothes, but
I buy a a lot less clothing than I used to.

Speaker 2 (05:01):
I used to hear fashion conscious enough to get by yeah,
like nobody's gonna look and but to not get made
fun of.

Speaker 1 (05:08):
I hope at least that by the other dads. Yeah,
but people probably also don't aspire to dress like me.
Let's be let's be honest. And I used to spend
more money than I do now on clothing. I used
to take the more as merrier approach, right, buying stuff
when it was on sale. I just cared about the
price tag, not necessarily whether I love the item or
whether I was gonna like wear it a lot and so.

(05:28):
But it turned out then that I was getting a
lot less enjoyment out of the stuff that I owned.
With each additional item that I was adding to my closet,
I was seeing diminishing returns.

Speaker 2 (05:37):
Right.

Speaker 1 (05:37):
I liked those items less, so I wore them rarely.
And it's not it probably didn't fit you all that well. Yeah,
that was the case for a lot of them, or
sometimes that cheaper clothing it becomes misshapen or warped just
a lot. So because it's the material quality is not there.
The quality's not there. Yeah, And so it's not that
buying clothing is bad. It's just that what I was
doing and the way I was doing it, it didn't make

(05:58):
much sense. And so I reconsidered my approach, and now
I find that I like my wardrobe more. Right, I
cleaned out my closet and I removed a lot of
the items that I didn't really like or wear. I
kind of indiscriminately purged a lot of those items that
I bought at a deep discount that I wasn't gonna
wear anymore. And now there are fewer items for me
to choose from when I'm in my closet, but or
just pulling out my drawers. I guess, really, but I

(06:19):
like them a whole lot more.

Speaker 2 (06:20):
And so I don't know.

Speaker 1 (06:21):
I guess just like they're diminishing returns to each additional
item of clothing you on, because really, there are only
so many outfits you can wear. I think frugality is
kind of similar. I mean, don't get me wrong, You
and me we're fans of saving money. We are frugal fellows,
we would say, But it's also it's a financial tool
that can't fix everything that ails you. We have to
know the limitations of frugality so that we can experience

(06:44):
the benefits without going too hard in that direction.

Speaker 2 (06:47):
That's right, Yeah, And I actually think that that's the
rub because there's a certain subset of personal finance folks
out there who think that frugality, that it's the answer
to all of life's money problems. Kind of reminds me
of did you ever watch my make that Greek wedding
long time ago back in the day, super Well, it
feels like it's an old movie at this point.

Speaker 1 (07:04):
It feels like it it's twenty years old now, right, Yeah, Yeah,
But in the movie, like every ailment, it can be
cured by some wind decks, whether poison, ivy psoriasis, similarly,
some frugality. It's a great thing, but it's only going
to get you so far, and after a certain point
you are getting less bang for your buck, and you're
going to be better served by focusing on some other

(07:25):
core tenets of personal finances, you know, going back to
what you're saying, about clothes. Not only will you get
less enjoyment out of buying more and more clothes, but
at a certain point, someone they could actually buy so
many clothes that they're just sick of it. It becomes
a liability and you know, maybe they're even repulsed by
the thought of it. And so our goal today is
to certainly highlight the importance of frugality, of being frugal,

(07:48):
but to also point out that there are diminishing returns of.

Speaker 2 (07:50):
Frugality as well. And you know, at the end of
the day, a healthy embrace of frugality is what's required.
That's what we're going to be discussing today. Yeah, exactly. All.

Speaker 1 (07:59):
We're always trying to strike that healthy middle balance point, Matt.
And yet it seems like the loudest voices are preaching extremes,
and so we will preach the happy medium continually because
that's what we believe, and that's the way we try
to live the extreme middle where we like to live exactly.
And it's better, of course to be frugal than to
be a spend thrift. Yeah, it's a good thing. Yeah,

(08:20):
I mean, that's something we don't want people spending more
than they make that's a crucial part of getting your
personal finances together is to reduce what you spend and
to hopefully increase your income at the same time. The
truth is that developing a frugal mindset is going to
save you more than just money. Also, right, it lends
itself to kind of a general contentedness and attitude of

(08:41):
just being happy with where you are. There's something about
frugality that is going to do more for you mentally
oftentimes than just financially. And when you're less consumption oriented
in general, right, that's a good thing. And so even
if your income is robust, wanting less and looking for
ways to save regularly on the purchases you're making, not
giving into the excesses that you could be partaking in

(09:03):
just because you have the bank account to back you up.
It's you're cultivating something on the inside that I think
is healthy and good. You can potentially take that to
an extreme, and I think, you know, I wouldn't say
the majority of how the money listeners probably fall into
this camp, but it's something to be aware of because
frugality is possible to go overboard, and you.

Speaker 2 (09:22):
Can take it too far. You can take it too
far absolutely, But okay, So one of the reasons we
love frugality right and just finding some different ways to
cut back is basically because it's a move that virtually
everyone out there can make, that they can partake in.
You can literally spend less money and start saving more today.
It doesn't take much, if any research at all. It

(09:43):
doesn't require opening a special account like some of the
other money moves that you can make, like investing requires it.

Speaker 1 (09:50):
You've got to kind of understand the tax implications of
opening a rock versus contributing to your four oh one
k yeah, match, and the investing options and all that stuff.

Speaker 2 (09:57):
Yeah, Well, when it comes to you spending less money,
it's just the sense of doing something right right, like
literally literally it's just like not doing the thing that
you want to do because it gives you that, you know,
that that short lived high, that sugar rush and frugality
like it doesn't require you to go and get a
four year degree, you know, like, this is something you
can implement today immediately. It's this democratic approach that is

(10:18):
available to everyone out there. And you know, we talk
about all sorts of ways to save money here on
the show. It makes me think of an episode we
did seven seven ways to save money this week. We'll
link to that one in our show.

Speaker 1 (10:29):
Not it's a bunch of practical things that people could
do literally, like seven, while we did seven was one
thing per personally, Yeah, for a week, and like it,
you'd be amazed at how much money you could save
in just a week.

Speaker 2 (10:40):
That's right, Yeah, But I mean literally even beyond that,
the simplest way to save money is just it truly
is the absence of taking action. It's avoiding taking action
by not spending your dollars. But there are things that
you could do literally today that is going to allow
you to save yourself money, not only immediately, but just
on an ongoing basis. When it comes to some of

(11:00):
these recurring bills that you can eliminate from your life,
or maybe not eliminate, but even reduce significantly, that's going
to have a big impact on your bottom line.

Speaker 1 (11:09):
Yeah, finding ways to cut back and be frugal on
expenses that you incur every single month, that's going to
be even more powerful, right than just a one time expense.
Got a multiplier, yeah, exactly. And frugality is a principle
that we can apply to virtually every expense in our lives.
We can always ask the question, is there a way
to do this activity, to buy this thing, or to
make this happen for less money than I was otherwise

(11:30):
going to spend. I actually love that exercise.

Speaker 2 (11:33):
Personally, Right, I was gonna say, I feel like there's
no other question that is like imprinted on the back
of your eyelids, that question. It's like, cool, can we
do it for cheaper? Right? Yeah?

Speaker 1 (11:44):
No, And that is kind of how my mind works.
So I am. I would say I'm actually like a
recovering extreme frugilite, right. I think for some years I
was too heavy in that direction, and so part of
this episode is really me talking about what I've learned
to a certain extent, like you and I have both
learned to this, right. But I think from personal experience,
I used to be too frugal, and I've found that

(12:07):
there were some limitations, there were some diminishing returns to
how frugal I became. So but I do think that's
an important question for us to ask, like is there
a way that we can do something for less money?
And it's it's always helpful to at least ask the
question to see whether you can cut back in one
way or another, and we're not all going to come
to the same conclusions about where we decide to cut
or reduce our expenses.

Speaker 2 (12:28):
Right.

Speaker 1 (12:28):
It makes me think of Matt. We just talked about
cutting your hair at home. Some people will say, yeah,
that's ridiculous and there's no way I'm going to do that.
I take great pride in my appearance or something like that, right,
And and other people will say, you know what, I
hadn't really thought about that. A twenty dollars pair of
clippers and thirty minutes of my time on a Saturday afternoon,
and boom, I'm saving myself twenty five bucks a pop

(12:49):
in perpetuity.

Speaker 2 (12:50):
They're thrilled, that's a recurring expense. Well, I guess unless
you go bald, Yeah, this is a recurring expense. This
is something that is going to pay dividends literally forever, right, right.

Speaker 1 (13:00):
And I think there's a lot of people but just
asking the question is helpful. It's a helpful, frugal response,
even though you might not necessarily make the same choice
as Matt or I or as some of your fellow
How of Money listeners. That's okay, but that question is
so important. It's so powerful, I think, the ability to
be creative and to consider the many different ways that

(13:20):
you could save money. It's one of the factors that
makes frugality such a major superpower in your personal finance.

Speaker 2 (13:26):
Arsenal. Yeah. Yeah, it's endlessly customizable. And that's what's so
great about it too, is you can take it and
you can apply it to not only the different expenses
that you have in your life, but the different expenses
that you want to apply it to. You don't have
to apply it to everything, but it's worth considering and
seeing how much you could save because I will say,
if you're able to reduce and you know, be frugal

(13:46):
and reduce the expenses of maybe some bigger ticket items
in your life, well you're going to see there's going
to be a bigger return on your investment in that way.
Right If you are able to be frugal when it
comes to housing and transportation, healthcare, education, some of these
large take items, you're going to see an outsized return
on being frugal in those ways. But if you don't
want to go that route and instead you want to

(14:07):
just kind of cut back in lots of other small ways, well,
that's totally fine too. It is totally up to you
as an individual.

Speaker 1 (14:13):
It's like, choose your own adventure, yes, and and some
people say, you know what, my own adventure includes a
luxury vehicle that's one or two years old, like, and
that's totally that's fine. That's not what Matt and I
sign up for. That's not how we roll. But we
also realize that it's your prerogative, right, and if you
want to live a life where you drive an nicer car,
but you're able to cut back in all these other
areas in order to ensure that you're still able to

(14:35):
save and invest right while at the same time driving
that nicer ride, that's that's really it's your choice and
it's all good.

Speaker 2 (14:42):
Yeah yeah, So okay, So going back to you mentioned
the haircut example, which I love the multiplier impact, right,
because like, that's what's so great about fugality is because
it not only allows you to begin saving and investing
more money now, but just by maintaining a frugal lifestyle
into retirement, it effectively means that you you need to
sit aside less money in order to actually become financially independent.

(15:04):
Sometimes we refer to this as like a double edged sword,
but really, if you think about it, it's more of
like a triple edged sword because it's that possible. Does
that then become like like a three dimension or something
like that. But like frugality now, like that means spending
less and then being able to save more in the
near term, right, Like that's essentially typically the double edged sword,

(15:25):
but it also means more years of financial freedom over
the long haul, because that's an expense that you no
longer also have to prepare for off in the future.
So it is helpful in the here now, but then
it also allows you to spend less money in retirement,
which is a massive win as well.

Speaker 1 (15:42):
Okay, so that makes me think. Earlier this year, there
was an economist, James Choy. I think he's from Yale
or something like that maybe and some really smart place.

Speaker 2 (15:50):
I don't know. He's much smarter than we are, like
much more well trained. But that means he's not hanging
out here with us having amazing craft beers. I don't know.

Speaker 1 (15:58):
He's short sighted in that fact, But like he was
arguing in his study, based on a bunch of data
that he said that that we should all basically seek
to spend a higher percentage of our income in our
youth in relation to what we're making, and then a
smaller percentage in our later years. He's basically making an
argument that we should be smoothing out our consumption.

Speaker 2 (16:18):
Yeah, that's the term, yeah to is and assumption smoothing.

Speaker 1 (16:21):
Yeah, and we should be a little more willing to
maybe even take on some debt in our earlier years
because we're always going to make more money, right and
be able to pay that debt off, and we just
don't want to deprive ourselves too much when we're.

Speaker 2 (16:35):
In our early twenties.

Speaker 1 (16:36):
But one of the problems with his argument is that
you'd be fast tracking your lifestyle inflation to a higher
level than what you and I would recommend in those
early years, and then you're allowed and actually supposed to
keep that consumption level basically the same throughout the decades,
So very little lifestyle inflation because you're just smoothing out
that consumption across a bunch of years. And it sounds

(16:56):
okay in theory, Like, I get why he proposes something
like this.

Speaker 2 (16:59):
On paper, This is like totally an academic way to
think about things.

Speaker 1 (17:03):
Yes, if you're not taking into account human psychology, right,
which is that people actually do right exactly, and so
it sounds good in theory, but in practice this is
much more difficult to pull off for a lot of folks,
and so embracing frugality early on then hanging on to
it at least keeping some of those frugal habits around,
that's going to lead to better outcomes for most people.
The earlier you develop some of those frugal habits, the

(17:25):
more inclined you're going to be to keep them in
your life for years to come. If you kind of
start off rejecting frugality out of hand completely, then and
then then you try to like become frugal in your
late thirties early forties sort of thing, it's gonna be tougher.
It's gonna be a big hill of climb. It sounds
so tough, right, yeah, because again I get it in theory. Okay,
So it makes me think of, like we've talked recently

(17:46):
about putting the toothpaste back in the tube, how difficult
that can be, and specifically we're talking about it in
regards to electric doors on a van. How when you've
got kids, it's a very nice thing to have.

Speaker 2 (17:56):
It's a luxury that I am willing to spend on.
And once you experience that, to go back to, you know,
manually sliding doors like that's it's it's it's just difficult.

Speaker 1 (18:07):
I've never experienced it. It'd be different exactly, Yeah, were
you to never have experience. I think it's just natural
to as you get older to want to experience luxuries
in life and different niceties. Right, it's easy to stay
at a hostile when you're twenty one.

Speaker 2 (18:20):
It's harder to do that, yeah, when you're forty years old, exactly,
And so the same thing. I think it's a natural
progression that it's just unnecessary to fight when you don't
have to write. So just basically don't allow yourself to
have some of those luxuries early on, but then allow
yourself over time, as you do see your net worth increase,
to then start sprinkling in some of those luxuries. I

(18:41):
think that's the biggest argument. I guess my biggest beef
with the consumption smoothing argument by pulling some of that
consumption into your life earlier on, is that's that should
be exactly when you have the ability not only to
hustle and make more money, but to also put up
with other inconveniences like sleeping on someone's couch while you're traveling.

Speaker 1 (18:59):
Let's be honest, you're also really hoping for the best
or predicting that everything's going to stay the same exactly.
And I've personally personally gone through the experience where of
you know, where my parents they were told, okay, well,
by by house, it's a little more expensive than you
can afford because you're you're clearly going to get raises,
like your income's going to go up, and pretty soon
it'll feel like not a big deal that mortgage, right
that that mortgage, It feels like a stretch right now,

(19:21):
You'll grow into it, right and then guess what, Dad
loses his job.

Speaker 2 (19:25):
Boom.

Speaker 1 (19:25):
It just changes the whole, you know, financial trajectory of
their future. And so yeah, you're you're also that consumption
smoothing is assuming and predicting really that all everything else
stays the same, your income continues to go up, and
that at some point you have more wiggle room to
make some of those changes. But we're also not promised that,
And so that's where frugality can be helpful.

Speaker 2 (19:45):
It's where it comes to the rescue. Yeah essentially. Well okay,
so honestly, like up until this point, folks are thinking,
wait a minute, I thought this was the diminishing returns
of frugality and all things to say, it's like singing
the praises of frugality. But yes, if you lean into
it too far, too hard, it's actually going to come back,
and we think it'll bite you in the butt. So
we're going to talk about some of the downsides to
frugality and we'll get to all of that right after this.

(20:17):
All right, we're back and Matt come to start frugality bashing.
Are you ready for this to kick its butt? Let's
do it.

Speaker 1 (20:22):
Let's take freugality to task. No, I mean, of course,
like we we just sung its praises frugality. Flexing your
frugality muscle is is such an important thing, and we
don't want you to forget about it or or not
tap that tool that's in your personal finance arsenal. But
the truth is, there's only so much you can do
to tighten your belt, right, and the more you tighten,

(20:44):
the less you are able to breathe. If you like,
in a little situation where you continue to tighten your belt.
At some point you cut off your oxygen flow. At
some point you lose your pass feeling in your legs exactly.
So it's just it's just not good. Right, there's at
some point you've just gone too far. And the same
thing is true of frugality, right, you can't cut anymore

(21:06):
past a certain point. It's tough to continue living a
bare bones existence forever. And changing where you shop for groceries,
I would say that's like a smart version of frugal, right,
whether you're going to Winco or all the or legal
like what Trader Joe's is another really good one. Like
wherever you're going to shop for groceries, maybe making that
one switch from Whole Foods or I don't know, what

(21:27):
are the other really expensive grocery stores that we don't
go to now, Yeah, wherever you're shopping that's way more expensive.

Speaker 2 (21:33):
I don't even know. We've always something that, right, we prioritize, but.

Speaker 1 (21:37):
Going from one of those, just making that one switch
is smart frugal. But here's the example. Maybe that would
be the opposite of that, going ridiculous frugal or too
frugal only eating rice beans and ramen. Right, that that
would be frugiality.

Speaker 2 (21:50):
Run amuck, which is fine for a short period of time,
like in particular if I mean, I do think if
you're getting out of debt and that's an important goal
for you, then cutting back in all the different ways
is important. But when it's this indefinite sort of suffering
and you're just grinding out that frugality, that's when it
feels like it's not something you're able to sustain. Although
if you're talking about the fancy ramen, I mean I

(22:11):
spend top dollar to go to those nicer ramen shops.

Speaker 1 (22:14):
Right, Yeah, I guess it's just a cheap top ramen,
right that. Yeah, probably can't live on for too long.

Speaker 2 (22:19):
But you break into bricks, yeah, and eat without cooking
it and sprinkle the seasoning in the back. You've done that, right. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (22:25):
It's nice every once in a long while, but you
don't want to make that your regular habit.

Speaker 2 (22:29):
When you're just loving it, when Emily's gone for the weekend,
you're just like, I'm just going to break this off
and eat it.

Speaker 1 (22:33):
Occasionally I've done it, but I try to talk about it.

Speaker 2 (22:36):
It's been a minute.

Speaker 1 (22:37):
But there's like there's this clear line in the sand
where frugality provides diminishing returns and if we go too far,
we're likely to miss out on some really important life stuff,
or to rebel against frugality altogether, really right, resuming our
consumption heavy ways.

Speaker 2 (22:50):
I think if you, if you go too.

Speaker 1 (22:52):
Far down the frugality rabbit hole, at some point, your
body might like reject it wholesale because you've just gone
You've gone so hard and you're just like this sucks,
this is no fun, and you might just revolt going
back to your your spendthrift ways because frugality maybe didn't
work out for you, but it's probably because you went
too hard, too fast down that.

Speaker 2 (23:12):
Path, yeah, and you just end up throwing in the towel. Yeah, Okay.
So I think an unhealthy approach to frugality is when
you don't have the right information and knowledge on hand, right,
Because in that case, I think frugality can then just
be this default behavior in order to be quote unquote
safe with your money. Right, Like, in this case, frugality,
it might be based in fear rather than just the

(23:35):
cold logical facts, like rather than just like the mathematical
understanding that you might need to cut back in order
to save up enough for a down payment on that
first house. And I think some of that might stem
from perhaps childhood experiences with money. Jill, you kind of
already mentioned a story from your past. Maybe someone grew
up and they were just told often that, hey, we

(23:56):
just can't afford to do that, and so that's just
like it was a script, right, It's something that was
replayed anytime there was something that you wanted, and.

Speaker 1 (24:04):
That becomes your knee jerk reaction. Then it's like, I
can't afford that. That's how you view things. That's what
you were told so often when you're growing.

Speaker 2 (24:11):
Up, and you either adopt that or I think sometimes
too you can completely It's like you were saying, you
reject it altogether, and you could end up on the
other side of the spectrum. But I think it could
also just be a hang up that someone may have
developed in even an early adulthood, maybe with like the
first job that you scored, maybe it offered you a
meager salary, Maybe that was an impressiable time in your life.

(24:33):
But either way, making money decisions based on fear, it's
just unhealthy. And honestly, we've been talking about this a
good bit recently, But we want folks to do some
internal digging. We want you to ask the question, are
you being overly frugal because you're afraid? Because you are
basing your decisions, maybe not even knowingly, maybe it's just
in your subconscious but based on how it is that

(24:54):
you feel towards money rather than what the reality of
the numbers in your SPA sheets what it actually shows.

Speaker 1 (25:01):
Yeah, and I've been guilty this a lot. That just
like kind of being overly frugal because I was fearful.
And the truth is, when you map out the worst
case possible scenarios, typically for most people, they're not nearly
as bad as you think they are. I was talking
to my mom about that the other day. She literally
just retired last week, so happy for congrats mom, And
I was like, are you pumped?

Speaker 2 (25:21):
Are you excited?

Speaker 1 (25:22):
And she said, well, I'm more nervous, And she's just
nervous about the money side of things. And I get
that the paycheck stopped coming, and it makes sense like
I would probably be nervous too, And because of that,
it's it taints the relationship with money too, which is
which thinks because I think spending money can be a
joyful thing if we allow it to.

Speaker 2 (25:41):
Be exactly Yeah, Okay, so I think if you're obsessed
with maybe you know, living as frugally as possible, I
think you're also going to be less focused on some
more powerful personal finance levers like growing your income. And
of course this isn't applicable to those who have just retired,
but for everyone else out there. Like, the reason I

(26:01):
say that I think it's a more powerful lever is
because unlike spending less, where there's only so far that
you can cut back, right, like you just talked about
how there's only so much tightening up the bell that
you can do, there's the possibility of almost no limit
to earning more money. And we don't preach like a
Tony Robbins esque message here, there certainly is power and
visualizing something we get that you can't just like manifest

(26:24):
a fatter paycheck. But that being said, it is possible
to have like essentially what we're gonna call frugal tunnel vision,
right where you're only focused on the different ways that
you can cut back, and you are missing out on
some of these other levers that can dramatically in some
cases increase the health of your personal finances. Frugality is

(26:45):
most definitely a tool, but so is increasing your skills
to move up the career ladder or negotiating for more pay.
We don't want you to neglect these other ways that
you can reach your financial goals, like making more money.

Speaker 1 (26:58):
If you're so minded. I think that's what happens to
ultrafrugal folks is they're so concerned about pinching pennies that
maybe they're missing out on some of those thirty thousand
foot changes that they can make exactly.

Speaker 2 (27:10):
They're just so in the weeds and they.

Speaker 1 (27:12):
Can have a bigger impact.

Speaker 2 (27:13):
They've got that scarcity mindset versus what the abundance mindset.
I guess yeah, And.

Speaker 1 (27:18):
I think lots of times it feels great to save
ten dollars extra on a pair of shoes or something
like that, but you're maybe saving pennies here, but you're
missing out on dollars over there.

Speaker 2 (27:27):
And that is.

Speaker 1 (27:28):
Probably the biggest potential downfall for anybody who's overly focused
on frugality. And we've talked about spending less, matt and
earning more, but there's something else that you need to
do with your money if you want to grow it
for your future. That's to invest it, right. And one
of the downsides to becoming overly focused on cutting spending
and bulking up your savings is that you might be
less inclined to invest your money. And this is another

(27:49):
thing that people who are too frugally minded run into,
I think regularly. Right, they run the risk of adopting
a horder like mentality when it comes to their money.
So I think when you're so focused on protecting your
money that you keep it locked up in a super
safe savings account, risking none of what you've been able
to save, well, that can have some downsides too, Right,

(28:10):
having some money liquid is important, it's necessary. But what
happens when you're so frugal that you just avoid investing
altogether because you've seen downswings in the market. And guess
what that frightens you. And so you say, you know what,
I'm gonna stick with the safe plan, which is just
to keep my money locked up in a savings account. Well,
you're doing better than you were for the past fifteen
years right now, which is good, But your money isn't

(28:31):
growing at the rate that it needs to be, right,
because inflation slowly erodes the power of those dollars over time. So, yeah,
be frugal, prioritize savings, but don't neglect to invest for
decades down the road too. That's what you need to
be doing with those dollars. And I just, yeah, I've
seen too many people who major in frugality minor in

(28:51):
some of these other things that move the needle in
a big way when it comes to Yeah, they're overall
net worth and their ability to reach financial independence.

Speaker 2 (28:57):
Yeah, I think if you're too focused on forget as well, Like,
one of the ways that you're going to see diminishing
returns with frugality is that you're going to be less
likely to invest in yourself. And so whether that's getting
a degree that can broaden your career prospects leading to
the ability to earn more money like we just talked about,
or even just personal experiences that are going to enrich
your life. I think having just a two frugal mindset

(29:19):
can cause you to avoid parting with money, even if
it's ensuring that more money is going to come your
way in the future, because you're so focused on the
here and now, you can't take that long view granted.
The way that Americans take on college debt. It's gotten
seriously out of control. We want folks to keep their
college debt to a minimum, but don't neglect investing in yourself,
and there's ways that you can do it without spending

(29:40):
a ton of money. Thrusting money into your personal development
I think will result in pretty epic financial but also
just non monetary results over the years as well. I
don't want to like down the road and when I
think about myself in five ten years, I don't want
to be the same person that I want to. You know,
who I am now, with just maybe a little bit
more money on hand, I want to be.

Speaker 1 (29:57):
I don't want you to be the same person in
the I won't be. Please change dramatically quickly, Okay, No,
I'm just kidding. Well, yeah, I think you're right, And
I think it's easy to be to be so frugal
that you forget about, yeah, all those other things that
make life awesome. Right, And sometimes that can be just
in a personal development sense. It's not choosing not to

(30:19):
go to that conference because it costs too much money,
even though the connections you might make could far outway
from a personal and from a monetary perspective the costs
that you threw into going on that trip. But the
same thing can be said of just like personal relationships
and stuff like that too, and life experiences as you
can have with the people that you love. I think
you might be tempted to forego a destination wedding or

(30:41):
or potentially avoid taking a family trip that could have
produced would have produced incredible memories for you. And the
ultra frugal person says, yeah, I don't know. I need
to pad my savings a little bit more and they
can become and I speak from personal experience, not trying
to call anybody out, they can become a basket case
on the topic of money that they neglect a funnel

(31:04):
money into the areas of life that matter a whole lot.
And I feel like I have speaking of changing, right,
I have changed so much even since we started this podcast.
But I used to be more shortsighted letting dollars and
since rule more of the decisions in my life. And
I think frugality brought me a long way in terms

(31:24):
of personal finance progress, but it had its limits, and
I had to realize the limits that frugality imposed on
my life because it was preventing me from achieving and
enjoying a whole lot, a whole lot of other things
where nothing that cost me a ton of money even, right,
It's not like it prevented me from driving a Lambeau.
Yeah it does, because that's just a ridiculous expense. But
there's all sorts of things that I was missing out

(31:46):
on that really, in the grand scheme of things didn't
cost a ton but provided really accrue to me a
whole lot of like joy, happiness, meaning Right, And so
I just think I'll say.

Speaker 2 (31:55):
You look much more joyful and meaningful, much more robust
human being today than you were a first started. I
hope so well. And you, you know, you were just
kind of talking about you said something about relationships and
maybe the impact that it could have there. It is
hard to sustain this a lifestyle of extreme frugality and
still have friends. Right, You're going to find yourself saying

(32:16):
no to things that you know you really could afford
to do, all because you're just too focused on building
up that massive nest egg. That is when frugality morson
to being cheap. And you know, it's one of the
ways that we do divine being cheap when it negatively
impacts those around you, And so in this in this way,
we want you to look outside of yourself and to
look to those around you and how your tendencies, or

(32:39):
maybe your tendency to not spend, might be negatively impacting
the relationships of not only those in your family, but
your friends as well.

Speaker 1 (32:45):
And let's be honest, it's kind of a tough tightrope
to walk, right. We've had a listener question I still remember.
I don't remember what the listener's name was, but this
was maybe a few months ago, and she talked about, well, man,
my family wants to go on six vacations this year,
and it's pretty expensive.

Speaker 2 (32:58):
Because getting kind of spendy.

Speaker 1 (32:59):
Yeah, why I prioritize family time but also prioritize my
finances simultaneously. And I get that it's a tough line
to walk, but it's one that we really have to
wrestle with. And if we're overly frugal, we'll miss out
on some really important moments. But if we're too uncautious, right,
we might go in the other direction and spend money
that we don't have, which would not be good either.

Speaker 2 (33:20):
So it's I think the fact as long as you
are thinking about it. Whether you come down on this
side or that side, that's totally up to you. It's
just that we don't want you to arrive at one
of those destinations without having thought about it. I think
that's the risk that you run when it comes to
potentially damaging relationships, right Because if you are, say, giving
up the ability to get to know your family a

(33:40):
little bit better because you're opting out of a cruise,
but that means that you're going to be able to
save up some more money for that down payment, I
think that's okay to make. Like, there's always going to
be trade offs in life, right, Like, there are sacrifices
that you make, as long as you are making those
sacrifices consciously and intentionally, Yeah, for sure.

Speaker 1 (33:56):
And I just want to mention one more thing where
I feel like frugality can cause us to maybe be
too myopic, and that is when we don't value our
time enough. This is another challenge that ridiculously frugal folks face.
They might not believe that in their head that their
time doesn't matter, that it's not valuable, but they end
up living it out with their actions. They'll do almost

(34:16):
anything to save a buck. Yep, even if it means
spending precious amounts of time that they'd rather spend hiking,
playing games with friends or just reading a book, not
even something that produces an income or produces returns, but
maybe just something that they would love to do, right,
And so they spend maybe too much time couponning or
it's that classic example of driving another like two miles

(34:40):
to save ten cents a gallon on gas or something
like that. And when we don't value our time enough,
we're really squandering what is an even more important resource
at the end of the day. And the more we
can kind of understand how limited and how valuable our
time really is, the more it might actually shift our
mindset on frugality. And you might end up paying for

(35:00):
things that you otherwise thought were ridiculous, or you might
spend a little extra here or there if it stops
you from having to make two or three runs to
different grocery stores and get it all in one place.
And then again, these are things I've had to adapt
to because I was the kind of guy who was
so frugal. I'd go to three different grocery stores to
save an extra ten Bucks, and now I'm like, wait
a second, that's crazy. I'm almost Matt and this might
sound ridiculous. I've almost gotten to the point where I'm

(35:23):
down to pay for grocery delivery because I'm like, wait
a second, if this is gonna And I'm the kind
of guy, like I said, I like to pick out
every single apple individually, like I want the best.

Speaker 2 (35:31):
But because I feel like you're back on the farm, right, But.

Speaker 1 (35:35):
I'm kind of like getting it coming around to the
fact that time is so valuable. It is that it
might be worth the extra money to have those groceries delivered,
take it off my plate and not have to think
about it, and just not go to the grocery store
at all anymore. Even get it, I do love it.

Speaker 2 (35:48):
Well, So I mean, the older we get, I think
this is something that folks come to more naturally as well,
because when you're younger, you think I've got all the
time in the world, even though the amount of time,
amount of life you have left is not guaranteed, right,
like we could all die next week, and so like
when you are comparing how much money you have versus
the amount of time you have, one of those is
most definitely more limited than the other. And I don't know,

(36:11):
maybe it's just the passing of time and the older
you get you realize that, like, oh my, my gosh, Like,
what do I want my life to look like? It's
not necessarily how much money that you can set aside,
but what do I want to spend my time doing?
And as long as we are intentionally choosing what it
is that we're spending our time doing and shaping and
designing our lives, I think that is what's most important.

Speaker 1 (36:29):
Well, let's talk about what it looks like to embrace
frugality in a healthy way, Matt, Like, what are the
tenants of frugality that we should incorporate so that we
can be frugal but not overly frugal. We'll talk about
that next.

Speaker 2 (36:51):
All right, now that we spent the whole last segment
kind of bashing on frugality a little bit, let's talk
about a.

Speaker 1 (36:57):
Healthy embrace of frugality because, of course, you'll, like, we're
speaking out on both sides of our mouth. Sometimes we
do that often here on the show, because like, yes,
frugality is it can be a good thing.

Speaker 2 (37:08):
You don't want to take it too far, but it's
pretty great. Reducing your expenses. That is a powerful tool
in your personal finance. Arsenal. We all know that we
applod folks out there, you know, who are asking for
a discount to save a few bucks. We'd love to
see you slash the recurring expenses like what you spend
on cell service and insurance. Those recurring expenses every single
month or every year. Those are meaningful dollars that you

(37:28):
can claw back into your life and making moves like
that it's one of the keys to growing that gap
so that you are able to invest more of your income,
allowing you to reach financial freedom sooner and freedom this
is one of the best things that money can buy,
right and so we want your you to have the
ability to distance yourself from your work off in the

(37:49):
future so that you have the ability to spend your
time like you want to spend it. So now we'll
give you our thoughts on how it is that you
can be frugal without going overboard to the extent that
you experience some of those diminishing returns. And we've talked
about you.

Speaker 1 (38:03):
Want to find that sweet spot, right, You don't want
to go so hard that like every additional frugal act
really nets you very very little. You want to find Okay,
how can I maximize my frugality and not go too
hard to or I'm spending too much time thinking about
it with too little actual financial return to your life.
And so let's talk about maybe a few tenants Matt,
that we have for embracing frugality in a healthy way.

(38:24):
One is to be frugal, not cheap. So don't allow
your frugality to enter into cheap territory. Like when your
pension for saving money negatively affects other people in your life,
it's gone too far. And this doesn't mean that you
should buy your kids everything they want, right And they're saying, listen,
dad or mom, you're being cheap because you're not going
to buy this thing for me. No, clearly that's not
what we're talking about. But I heard you talking about

(38:46):
it on the podcast.

Speaker 2 (38:46):
Yeah, I heard you. Let this negatively impacts what it
is that I get to play with.

Speaker 1 (38:50):
Better buy me that name brand thing or that new
stuffed animal that I want, or that's what we're saying. No,
but if you're not tipping well, or you're not allowing
your partner to spend on experience and stuff that matter
to them. You've probably gone too far. You start to
flirt with cheapness when you're overly focused on saving a
buck now as opposed to thinking longer term.

Speaker 2 (39:09):
Yeah, well, okay, Well, going back to what you're saying
about clothes, I think what this means is taking the
long view, and so I think sometimes what that might
mean is spending a little bit more because you're buying
something that's quality, even though it might cost you more
in the near term, knowing that it's something that you're
gonna wear often and something that you're going to receive
a lot of value and satisfaction over same thing with

(39:30):
the season passes. It might cost you a little bit
more now, But if that means a if you have
the bandwidth or the margin to be able to absorb
an expense like that, well over the course of the year,
you're gonna come out way ahead by spending a little
bit more now. I think that's the difference between being
overly focused on the near term versus kind of taking
that longer term mindset. But we do want you to

(39:50):
save money where you can. I think that's a healthy
aspect of embracing frugality. Because even though we want you
might be paying a little bit more for quality, just
paying full just because you can. Like, that's not necessarily
a badge of honor. Yeah, right, Like that's like anti frugality.
It's not necessarily embracing fregality in a healthy way. It's
like not thinking about price and hitting purchase no matter
what exactly. Well, it makes me like buying new versus

(40:14):
when you could easily buy used, that's not something that
we want to encourage if there's that used option there
for you, right, Like searching for a coupon code, waiting
for a better sale to buy that item that you
really want. Like, these are all great behaviors, and honestly,
even just challenging your assumption about what it is that
you need, there's a big difference between your needs and
your wants. It makes me think back to our conversation

(40:35):
with Katie walk Stanley. She's got this motto and it's
a great one for frugal folks to live by. Her
motto is use it up, wear it out, make it
do or do without. And again she's calling into question
what it is that we think that we need versus
what it is that we can get by with and
I do think it's possible to take this too far, right,
Like Katie, she lives a different life than we do,

(40:59):
But I think it can be a helpful guide. And
what's cool is that it is up to us. We
get to personalize what it is that we want our
lives to look like. Like, she wants to reduce her
carbon footprint, and she is intentionally embracing that frugality, and
to us that seems something that she does might seem
a little bit cheap, but all that is is a
different a difference in goals and what it is that

(41:19):
she wants her life to look like, because it's a
different informed vision. Yes, to her, it's worth every action,
everything that she rescues from the curb, anything she pulls
out of a dumpster, because that is getting her closer
to the world that she wants to live in. And
I know, I think that's worth mentioning because even though
something might seem like something that might seem cheap to me,

(41:41):
might be the next person's frugal life that they want
to intentionally live by.

Speaker 1 (41:46):
Yeah, all right, So one other thing, if we're talking
about embracing frugality from a healthy, healthy perspective, would be
to be careful about becoming habitually frugal. And of course,
you know, embracing a degree of frugality can be a
great habit to develop in order to reach your financial goals.
We've seen how it can be a difficult habit to
shake though. What it's time to actually start spending some

(42:06):
of that money? Yeah, it makes big of our conversation
with Brandon the mad Fientist. Oh yeah, and he's like, hey, like, well.

Speaker 2 (42:11):
We had another recent ask out of money where the
guy was just like, like, when can I start spending
my money? Yeah, although I guess in his case he
was ready, like he had like it was more about
the nuts and bolts as opposed to what you're talking about.
It's more of like a like an attitude. It's giving
yourself permission, sort of making that switch from saving and
earning to actually saying, all right, it's time to start

(42:33):
spending my money. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (42:34):
I mean to some naturally frugal folks, it's going to
take some work in order to give yourself the permission
that you need to spend that money. Really, like knowing
your craft beer equivalent, which is something we talk about
all the time on the show. Matt, I mean, yeah,
asking the question what are you spending money on intentionally
and proactively? And if you can't think of anything, and
when you ask yourself that question, you're probably leaning way

(42:55):
too hard in the frugal direction. So I think we
should all find ways to spend money in a way
that brings a lot of joy, that brings a lot
of value into our lives. And if we can't don't
have a good answer to what we're intentionally spending money
on that's bringing us joy, then we should probably go
back to the drawing board and do some soul searching,
because we should be spending money in ways that you

(43:16):
deliver a return. Yeah, And so what's out the crux
of what you're talking about is knowing what it is
that will bring you that return. And ultimately, I think
it's harder to say no to frugality as opposed to
yes to some of other life goals, right, Like, it's
hard to say no to something that you know is
going to make you wealthier unless you've identified something that
is going to make you wealthier in.

Speaker 2 (43:37):
Other ways in life. And so what are some of
the other things that you're wanting to accomplish in life?
What is the actual purpose for the money that you've
been saving up Because for some folks, thinking through what
you want to spend your money on, like it's going
to be really easy, but sort of like you're saying, Joe,
like for others out there, for the ultra frugal lights,
this might prove to be a really difficult exercise. And

(43:58):
so I think a way to brainstorm just to think
through some of the different arenas of your life where
it is that you could spend money, Like, so think
about relationships, the different friendships that you have. Spending on
other people is what we're talking about here. But this
doesn't even necessarily have to be money that you're spending,
but even just time that you're giving up, like just

(44:19):
grabbing coffee or grabbing a beer with a friend. If
that's an area of your life that you're saying, Man,
I don't as like intermiddle age, I don't have as
many friends as I would have imagined that I would have,
or like there's always those different questionnaires that go out
where they're like, hey, if you had to call somebody
in the middle of the night for an emergency, do
you have somebody other than family perhaps that you could

(44:40):
call on. I think that's an important question to think
through it, Like, giz, there somebody like that that you
could count on.

Speaker 1 (44:44):
And by the way, you could always buy your friend's
beer coffee too. That's like a great yeah se yeah, yeah,
that's like that going even a little bit further than
just making the time for it and then exactly being
generous with the people around you. That is such a
great exercise because I think it helps us, like you
can still be frugal and be generous simultaneously.

Speaker 2 (45:00):
Totally, yeah, and so so yeah, relationships the people around you.
But then like another area that I like to think
through is my physical health. Right, Like you know, all
we talk about for the most part here is like
financial health. We talk about money, but there are these
other aspects of life again, these other arenas, and I
think your body, your physical health is an aspect as well.
And so what this means oftentimes is does this mean

(45:22):
it's now time to pay for a membership? This is
something I finally came to the realization of. Like I
was saying that I prioritize my physical health and that
I could I could do these different exercises for free
on my own, but I wasn't actually doing it, and
so for me it meant the buy in of actually
signing up. Or maybe if you.

Speaker 1 (45:40):
Don't have that physical health, by the way, it's really
hard to enjoy your financial health later in life exactly.

Speaker 2 (45:44):
Or for other folks out there, they're really into foods,
so maybe that means just like buying higher quality foods
as opposed to like the absolute cheapest stuff that you
can buy at aldi, which there's nothing wrong with that.
That's something we still do. But other arenas in life,
so like maybe like when it comes to religion or
being spiritual, I think this is maybe one less about spending,

(46:04):
but it does emphasize earning less money and maybe being
slightly less quote unquote productive because you're going to church
or maybe you're going to synagogue once a week rather
than working. These are just all different ways that we
can think about the other aspects that make life rewarding
outside of just growing your net worth. And actually, you know,
we talked about this back. We did an entire episode

(46:26):
dedicated to creating a money mission statement. This is something
that you may have heard us talk about, but if
you have not yet done this, we're serious about this.
This is like This really does matter if you are
able to identify some of these other goals in life
that you want to achieve outside of your finances. It
is so important to focus on those things because that
will then inform how it is that you spend your money.

Speaker 1 (46:47):
If you don't have a why, a light at the
end of the tunnel, a thing that you're shooting for,
a kind of a lifestyle goals, like ways of moving
through this life that you are like actively searching after
you are going to get keep doing the thing you've
been doing. You're not going to take a path that
offers greater levels of resistance. You're not going to make
any changes ultimately. And so yeah, that money mission statement,

(47:08):
having that developing that why, kind of doing some of
that inner work is really going to help you realize
and see, Okay, cool, am I being too frugal? Or
am I maybe I haven't been frugal enough because I
haven't implemented this tool that's going to help me reach
these other goals that I have for myself from a
financial perspective. Part of that, Matt is the thing we
talk about all the time is the craft beer equivalent, Like,

(47:29):
what are those two or three things that are worth
spending a heck of a lot of money on right
now that a whole lot of other people would say, Well,
that's a silly way to spend money. Why why would
you do that? What is that in your life? That's
a good question to ask and maybe see if there
are ways that you can redirect existing expenses to increase
your ability to spend in those ways, to increase the
joy that you're getting from the money that is flowing

(47:51):
out of out of your accounts every month, Like where
that money goes should be a reflection of your values,
And it's a good thing to question, well, is it
is that the case right now?

Speaker 2 (48:00):
Now?

Speaker 1 (48:00):
Am I spending so much money on this and this
line item? And boy I could care less about that stuff,
but man, I'm really not able to spend on this,
this and this, And if I could just kind of
like move some things around that my spending would then
be a better reflection of who I am. So yeah,
I would take a look. Can you readirect some of
those funds to ensure that they reflect what you care
about more closely? That can look like cutting back on

(48:22):
eating out to the tune of a few hundred bucks
a month, So you can actually afford to take that
family vacation, right or ditching a car from your life
so you can free up thousands of dollars allowing you
to take like a work sabbatical for three months. Who knows,
like that is intensely personal, but well that's the.

Speaker 2 (48:38):
Best part is the fact that it is personal, right,
and we all get to decide what it is that
we want our lives to look like, Like this is
the creative side of personal finances that I think oftentimes
gets overlooked because it's like, oh, personal finances, that's just
about the money. It's like, well, no, there's the whole behavioral,
psychological aspect of personal finances in your money. But then
there's also the personalization side of it and the fact

(48:59):
that we are all seeking after different things in life.
And I think that's the part that hopefully can make
a more impactful, like longer lasting impact on your life,
is because you're anchoring it to something that you truly
care about, it that somebody else cares about, more emotional
and creative than we give it credit for. Yes, yeah, yeah, absolutely,
And so ultimately we want you to have these like
essentially like a bigger vision beyond just saving money. It's

(49:22):
not just about the dollars. It's about truly what, like
what are all these dollars for? And frugality it's one
part of the equation. But if you focus too long
and too hard in that direction, you're likely going to
miss out on the other side of the equation, which
is spending your money in ways that are going to
bring you joy. We shouldn't feel guilty about spending within
our means, you know, Like, honestly, the money stories that

(49:44):
make me the saddest are the ones out there where
there's like a janitor or a librarian dying and they
happen to have millions in the bank. They didn't make
a whole lot of money, They lived such a frugal existence,
and they because of that, they amassed a fortune. And
that's kind of sad unless, honestly, they found ultimate fulfillment
in doing that. If if that was something that they
intentionally chose, I'm totally cool with that. But for if

(50:06):
they didn't give it the thought, if they didn't think bigger, like,
what is it that could potentially bring me more joy?
That's when I think that they're perhaps missing out.

Speaker 1 (50:15):
I think I think lots of times it was extreme
frugality without the realization that, man, I can do some
really cool with that, but not just spending on myself.
It doesn't have to be or on you exactly.

Speaker 2 (50:25):
Finally, consumption, because even if they're planning to give it away, Man,
how much joy would that have brought you to proactively
give that away and to maybe even see the impact
of what your dollars could have done. And you mentioned
mad fientists earlier, and I think I cut you off,
but I think in our interview with him, he talked
about the fire community and how unfortunately a lot of
times all the fire folks the financial independence retire early.

(50:47):
They want to hang out with each other and like
talk about fire stuff. And if that's what you're doing,
you're missing the point. That's what you've in this case,
like you've raised fire up to the point toward has
become the end as opposed to the means to the end.
In this episode, what we're talking about is frugality. And
if you have elevated frugality so much that it becomes
the end and not the means to the end, well,

(51:10):
then we think that you're missing out on a whole light,
a whole lot of what it is that life offers
that makes life actually fulfilling.

Speaker 1 (51:16):
And that's why, even though Brain is part of the
fire movement and you and I are not necessarily all
about it, there's certain things we respect about it, certain
things we really do appreciate it. There's a lot of
good advice in that realm. I think part of the
reason we connect with Brain and so deeply is because
we share so many other things in common, not just
kind of a respect and care for about the topic
of money. So you know it, That's why I like
craft beer.

Speaker 2 (51:36):
Craft beer, which is what maybe like seventy percent of
our conversation revolved around craft beer when we were hanging
out with them in person, not on the pod, not
on the actual interview. Yet well about the whole rest
of the time we were just talking about beer. Wait,
we were talking about so.

Speaker 1 (51:50):
Much other stuff, live in life, in his life in
Scotland and stuff and kids and yeah, different priorities.

Speaker 2 (51:55):
Yeah, but we did definitely have a coffee. We've spent
a lot of super nerdy craft beer tasting nerding out
on coffee as well. But yeah, that's that's what's important.
We don't want you to lose sight of what it
is that you're truly seeking after, and you become obsessed
with the numbers. Make sure that you keep that in
its proper place, make sure that that continues to be

(52:16):
the means too, whatever it is that your end is
to you. But Joe, let's go ahead. Is that it
you want to talk about the beer? Now? Let's do
it all right? Okay? This is the void of perspective
that became you and me. This is a double IPA
by Burial. What your thoughts on this one, buddy? Okay?

Speaker 1 (52:34):
This one had like cotton candy sweet kind of vibes
going on. Am I wrong?

Speaker 2 (52:38):
It says dream candy on the back.

Speaker 1 (52:39):
I know, I think that's what tipped my brain in
that direction. But I do think it definitely was more
sweet than the rest of our IPAs that we've had.

Speaker 2 (52:45):
Yeah, it so is. The last Wednesday when we had
the one that made that we were talking about it
was almost like a fresh hop. It was kind of
like sparkly and kind of efferifescent and bright. In my mind,
this one goes along. It's in that same vein as
opposed to some of the Burials IPAs, which are super
earthy and vegetable. This one is it's got those higher notes.

Speaker 1 (53:07):
This one almost takes it like hop syr up to
me like it had like you just had a lot
more sweetness going on to it. I guess it did,
and so I don't know. I enjoyed it, but it's
not as much as Yeah, maybe last week's exactly. So
maybe that's why I really really like it. You like sweet,
I like him a little bit sweeter, And I don't
think it's I do. I have been cutting back on
my sugar intake. I'm trying to be a little bit healthier,

(53:27):
but I did. Yeah, I definitely definitely like this one.
And I don't know Dream Candy.

Speaker 2 (53:31):
I don't know if that's a collaboration or I don't know.
Maybe we'll look it up and link to it in
our show notes. But regardless, yet another fantastic ipa. Buy
our friends up there at Burial, and I just call
them our friends because I think we'd get along even
though we don't know anybody personally up there at Burial.
But if you are a fan of IPAs and you
have not had some of these amazing IPAs by Burial,

(53:54):
we would highly recommend them for sure.

Speaker 1 (53:55):
Super Tasty or Matt. That's going to do it for
this episode. Listeners can find show notes up on the
website at howtomoney dot com. You can also find our
credit card tool there. Just click the link in the
upper right hand corner. You'll get there and you'll find
hopefully the best credit card for how you spend for
cash back or travel or whatever you're looking for.

Speaker 2 (54:11):
Whatever it is, the different benefits that you're looking for
if you are able, of course, to use a credit
card in a responsible way, which means not caring a balance.
We're talking to the advanced users of credit out there,
but Jiel, that's going to be it for this episode, Buddy.
Until next time, Best Friends Out, Best Friends Out.