The Power of Cash w/ Jay Zagorsky #995

Will our guest today convince us to ditch digital payments?! Listen to find out!

 

Because here’s something that we hear all the time: “You can just Zelle me” or “Venmo me!”. It’s sort of like “I’ll just Uber to the airport” – once a company name has become a verb, is it possible to decouple it from culture? And of course the fact that they’re incredibly fast and easy makes the various payment options very attractive. They certainly make life easier when it comes to paying rent for our little office. It definitely takes the hassle out of receiving rent from tenants and I think they’d say the same thing. You don’t have to worry about lugging around your wallet and don’t get us started on credit card benefits! But you better believe that our guest today wholeheartedly disagrees! We’re joined by Professor Jay Zagorsky who is an economist at Boston University’s Questrom School of Business. And he's the author of a new book that was published a couple months ago: The Power of Cash: why using paper money is good for you and society. He makes arguments for why we’ll spend less, live healthier lives, and have a more resilient society when we treat actual, physical cash as king.

 

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
Welcome to Had of Money. I'm Joel, I'm Matt, and
today we're talking about the power of cash with Jason Gorski.

Speaker 2 (00:25):
That's right, yeah, Joel. So here's something that we are
hearing more and more. You can just sell me or
then mo me. It's sort of like I'll just uber
to the airport. I think once a company name has
become a verb, you know that it's completely ingrained in
our culture, and honestly, like, what's not to love about it?
It's easy, it's fast, it's like i mean, virtually instant.

(00:45):
It certainly makes life easier for me to pay rent.

Speaker 1 (00:47):
For our little office here. Joel.

Speaker 2 (00:49):
It definitely takes the hassle out of receiving rent from
my tenants as well on the investment properties. And I
think that they would say the same thing. But our
guest today, well you better believe he just agrees. We
are joined by Professor Jay Zagorski, who is an economist
at Boston University's Questrum School of Business, and he is
author of a new book that was published just a

(01:11):
couple months ago, The Power of Cash while using paper
money is good for you and society. And we'll see
if Jay can convince us to toss the plastic to
grab the cash instead. We'll see if cash is king,
but you know, the actual physical cash, that's what we're
talking about today. So, Jay, thank you so much for
joining us.

Speaker 3 (01:30):
Great to be on your show, Matt and Joel. And
let me say, my goal is not to convince you
to throw away Zell, Venmo, PayPal, your credit cards. My
goal is much smaller and much simpler. All right here,
It is the punchline. Use cash at least once.

Speaker 1 (01:45):
A week, once a week, once so that week, Okay.

Speaker 3 (01:48):
Just at least at least you want to use it
more than once. Guys, you'd make me really happy. Everybody
uses cash at least once a week, all right. We
would keep it going in society because cash is very powerful.
But if no one uses cash anymore and it's only available,
for example, in emergencies, and we'll talk about that a
little bit later in the show, then cash becomes powerless.

Speaker 1 (02:10):
Okay, and we want to keep that power cash around.
We'll talk about that first question though, Jay, what do
you like to splurge on? And are you using cash
when you're splurging?

Speaker 3 (02:18):
I definitely do. I have one small weakness, you know,
It's sort of like my kryptonite for Superman, my Achilles heel.
I love large bottles of nice wine, not seven hundred
and fifty milli liters. But whenever I see, you, know,
in these magnums or terable magnums, I just go have
to have it. Now, let me say that I understand

(02:41):
that buying large bottles of say a laundry detergent, saves
your money, but when you buy large format bottles of wine,
you're actually spending extra money. You can google. I've written
a number of articles on this, So.

Speaker 2 (02:54):
The economies of scale actually work against you. And is
that what like how many milli leaders those we're talking
about when it comes to.

Speaker 3 (02:59):
A well, for example, must in a bottles of wine
or about seven hundred and fifty million liters. So if
you buy a one point five one point five liter
bottle of wine, a nice wine, not a drug wine,
you're gonna actually pay more on a per ounce basis.
And let me tell you why that my splurge is
related to the power of cash. I want to talk
to you about three things. The book has at least

(03:22):
twenty things about why cash is powerful, but I want
to talk to you about three things. Privacy, the ability
to pay, and it reduces prices. Those are the three
p's that I think we can cover in our time together.

Speaker 1 (03:33):
Okay, Okay, I'm curious. So if the on your splurge,
if wine costs more in the bigger bottles, why do
you gravitate in that direction?

Speaker 3 (03:43):
Because we're not all rational to be here. I see
a bottle of.

Speaker 4 (03:48):
Wine, I go get a true economist.

Speaker 3 (03:49):
Yeah, I'm not perfectly rational, but let's talk about privacy
and bottles of wine for a moment. Okay, my wife
knows when I buy a bottle of wine. I walk
in the door, I'm like, oh, man, I bought this
bottle of wine, you know. And she sort of rolls
her eyes because once or twice I told her how
much I was spending on some of these giant bottles
and she was like, you're what, No, you spent how

(04:12):
much money? That's ridiculous. So now I pay cash when
I go and splurge my bottle of wine, and I
get some privacy. And my wife she enjoys the wine.
She doesn't ask me how much it costs, and she
can't go through the visa receipts. So the mass with
tardwork or anything like that. No, no, no, no, we have
a pretty open marriage. She knows I bought the wine,
but she doesn't know the price, and she can enjoy

(04:33):
it without going This is just totally ridiculous.

Speaker 4 (04:36):
So your air and you're doing it for her own
good is what you're.

Speaker 3 (04:39):
Saying, John, I'm doing it for my own good.

Speaker 1 (04:42):
All right, let's talk digital payments are easy. Matt talked
about it kind of in the beginning, right, like cash,
it's easier to lose if I drop my credit card. Hey,
it's it's okay because I can call a credit card
company have that thing canceled, and then nobody can spend
on it. It's not going to impact me negatively. But
if I drop rude?

Speaker 3 (04:58):
Not true? Not true?

Speaker 1 (05:00):
Okay, tell me where I'm around.

Speaker 3 (05:01):
Second, so people are like, oh, man, I don't want
to carry cash. I could get lost, stolen, I can
get mugged. And that's true. About two years ago, the
data come out kind of slowly. In the United States,
about four hundred million dollars worth of cash was stolen
last year to about two years ago. Okay, but how
much money was stolen on credit cards? Over twenty billion,
not million, but billion, and you can say, ah, well,

(05:24):
it didn't affect me. I lost my credit card. Some
thief you know, took it. They charged in, you know,
three thousand miles away things. I just called up the
credit card company that canceled the credit card. They were
funded the charges. But Matt and Joel, somebody had to
pay for what that thief stole. And that could be
the store, and how does the store make you pay?

(05:44):
They raised their prices to take care of shrinkage and theft.
Or it could be the credit card company is going
to take some losses and they basically end up charging everybody. So, yes,
cash gets stolen, but when theft happens via electronic means
everybody in society has to pay.

Speaker 1 (06:04):
Gotcha? That makes sense.

Speaker 2 (06:05):
Do you feel differently about debit cards? I mean, I
guess in that case, initially it is us as the
debit card holder, as the savings account or checking account
card holder, we see that money immediately leave. But then ultimately,
as we were trying to fight and claw that money back.
I guess again, at that point someone does end up paying.
But in that case it's the bank.

Speaker 3 (06:26):
Not really. It really depends on how fast do you
notify the bank that your debit card was stolen. So
if you notify the bank before any thief uses your
debit card, no problem. The bank is on the hook
because they have to shut that debit card off. And
if they don't in time and you notify them, and
you actually have a record that you notified them, then

(06:46):
the bank's on the hook. But if you don't actually
look at your debit card transactions, you don't I'll constantly
check your account of seeing what's going on, and you
wait a while, you could basically be on the hook
for everything, and not only that, they could drain your
account and you have no recourse if you wait long enough.
Now there's a whole bunch of different dates and times,

(07:08):
and I don't want to get into the specifics because
I don't want someone saying, but Jay Z said on
this on this podcast, you know it was fourteen days
and it turned out to actually be thirteen or something
like that. I don't want to get into that kind
of issues here. But you could be totally on the
hook on a debit card if you don't notify them immediately.
And sometimes people lose debit cards and don't know they
lost their debit cards.

Speaker 1 (07:29):
Sure, so from like a macro perspective, Jay, when we
look at the transition from cash to credit in this country,
like people used to just pay cash for stuff they
don't anymore. What has that looked like and how has
that impacted us as a society? Is does it? I mean,
it certainly seems like it's led to a lot more debt.

Speaker 3 (07:49):
And that's the big problem if we in you and
I start using cash more often. Cash is basically a
hard limit when you're out of money in your wallet,
when you're out of money in your purse, you basically
have to stop spending. With a debit card, you can
spend all the way up to the limit of the
amount of money in your account. With a credit card,

(08:10):
it's all the money in your bank accounts plus whatever
your credit limit is. So stores love and banks love
the ability to do electronic payments. Why because it encourages
us to spend far more, to get deeper into debt.
But if you're trying to maintain some control over your finances,
basically to improve your wealth situation, you want to use

(08:30):
electronic payments as little as possible. And it's for a
very simple reason. It's called the pain of paying. The
pain of paying, you start pulling pieces of paper out
of your wallet or purse, you feel a tiny bit
of regret. You pull out your cell phone or your
credit card and sort of swipe or tap as you
walk by a cash register. Eh, nothing actually happens mentally,

(08:52):
because you're going to pay like a month later, and
that's so far off in the distance that you're not
thinking about it. There's no pain. And because of no pain,
because there's no pain, you end up spending.

Speaker 2 (09:01):
More' that's future Matt's problem to have to deal with,
not present day Matt, but.

Speaker 3 (09:06):
Uh, future Matt's going to show up in thirty days.

Speaker 1 (09:08):
That's true. Yeah, it's just around the corner exactly.

Speaker 2 (09:11):
I will say, we've had listeners and there have been
other reports out too. This isn't just anecdotal with our audience.
But there's a lot of folks who say makes younger
folks when when I pay for something with cash, because
cash isn't their system that they transact in. When they
do use cash, it feels almost like pretend money. It

(09:32):
almost feels like like monopoly money or something like that,
as opposed to the charges getting tracked and then it
goes into their budget and as they reconcile, they're spending
at the end of the month.

Speaker 1 (09:43):
What are your thoughts there?

Speaker 3 (09:44):
So a lot of it has to do with how
you understand money. But for me, the best example is casinos.
I'm not encouraging any of your listeners to go to
a casino, but when you walk into a casino, they're
going to ask you for cash, and they're going to
hand you chips. And then after handing you chips, you're
going to gamble and if you have some chips left over,

(10:05):
or maybe you have more chips, if you get lucky,
then you actually started with you then transform it back
into cash. Why did casinos do this ridiculous whole process
of taking paper money, transforming into plastic chips, and then
handing back paper money at the very end, it's kind
of expensive. They have to count chips, they have to
have all these people running around in cages doing all

(10:26):
this transfer. And the whole idea is by doing this
transfer taking enf cash, it makes it no longer real.

Speaker 1 (10:33):
Yeah, and then it again desensitizes you from the money
that you're losing. I'm curious too, You mentioned that we're
all paying higher prices because the shrinkage involved in credit
card theft, and so in the fact that the credit
card companies they take a fee every time. But man,
as consumers were addicted to the rewards that those credit

(10:54):
cards offers, right, and so Visa and MasterCard they crush.
They've done incredibly well. But how much has that shift
away from using cash as individuals? How much has that
really impacted prices? Can you put a number on it?
Can you like? Yeah, any detail there?

Speaker 3 (11:09):
So in general, Visa a master Card charge and I'm
being rough here about two percent, And it really depends
exactly on which particular credit card or debit card you're using.
The more your credit card has rewards on it, the
fancy of your credit card, the bigger the cut the
banking system is going to take from the merchant. And
more importantly, buy now, Pay Later has become really popular,

(11:31):
especially among your younger listeners. Yeah, buy now, pay later.
It takes sometimes between five and six percent as a cut,
Wow merchant.

Speaker 1 (11:39):
And that's because they when people use by now, pay
later again, much bigger shopping cart size, as much bigger spends.

Speaker 3 (11:45):
Yes, the retailers love buy now, Pay later because people
like I don't have the money, but wow, I can
pay for it over four installments. I can actually afford
this and buy now, pay later for merchants is very
good because instead of showing the whole price, instead of
showing a one hundred dollars, it says twenty five dollars
payable in four installments. And mentally, even though we all

(12:06):
know we should be doing the math the multiplication, we don't.
So we see twenty five dollars over four installments, we go, yeah,
I can afford that. By instead of looking at one
hundred dollars and go ooh, that's a little outside my
budget range, we're.

Speaker 1 (12:20):
Just less price sensitive, which then yeah, we just get on.

Speaker 2 (12:23):
That end of the cycle of making these payments. And
so you're talking about prices here and in relation to
the wine example, Jay, go back to privacy for a second.
So like we're talking about prices, let's jump back to privacy.
Do you think that we should be worried about In
your case, you're talking about your wife, you know, knowing
how much you spent or didn't spend on a one

(12:43):
of those Magnum bottles, But should we be worried about
other people or companies knowing what it is that we're purchasing,
how much we're buying.

Speaker 4 (12:51):
Or should be targeting us, Yeah, or targeting.

Speaker 2 (12:54):
That's why I'm going to get to Like, there's a
it reminds me of like cookies on like social media apps,
and all of a sudden and they're able to serve
up relevant ads that sometimes I'll be honest, I actually
don't hate. Like sometimes I'm like, oh, I wish they
didn't know that, or I can't believe that they know
that about me.

Speaker 4 (13:10):
But then like there's a pair of shorts.

Speaker 2 (13:13):
I owe multiple pairs of the shorts that it was
served up to me, and I would never have known
about these shorts had it not been for cookies. And
so I guess I'm trying to create some sort of argument,
I guess for being tracked, but talk about how terrible
it might be for us to actually be tracked.

Speaker 3 (13:29):
Matt, I teach at the Questionum School of Business, and
tomorrow is Questions graduation day. It's that depends when exactly
you listen, but right now it's the middle of May.
And what I really noticed about my students is when
I talk to them about privacy, like, ah, I have
an open book right, and they post pretty much everything
they want on social media. And right around graduation day,

(13:51):
I see my undergraduates do something really bizarre. They start
scrubbing their social media because they're like, oh my god,
I have now have to get a job. I can't
actually have all these things out there. So while in
school they say they don't care about privacy, at a
certain moment in their life, when they sort of transition
from college students into adults, they go, Wow, privacy is important.

(14:13):
I really don't want my entire life to be an
open book. And when you start using electronic transactions, you
are creating a permanent record that cannot be scrubbed like
your social media feed. You are telling banks, you are
telling Visa a MasterCard, you are telling shops your entire
purchasing history. And sometimes that entire purchasing history can be

(14:36):
either embarrassing or not the type of history you want
to show people. Let me tell you a quick example.
Amazon's been around for a very long time, and I
remember trying out Amazon, oh probably twenty five thirty years
ago when it was pretty new, and I had a
niece who really loved samurai things, and she was like, oh, uncle,

(14:56):
can you do me a favor. I want a sewd
for Christmas?

Speaker 1 (14:59):
Sure?

Speaker 3 (15:00):
Why not? I mean, so I bought her on Amazon,
a samuraized sword. Amazon for decades put me into a
basket as somebody who wanted guns, knives, and swords all
the time. And it was really hard. I had young
children at the time, and they would come by and
Daddy was sitting on the computer and like, Daddy, you
don't let us play with guns, knives and swords. How

(15:21):
they're always showing you these big guns, knives and swords.
And I was like, it's real hard to explain to
a small child that dad once bought this for somebody
else and is now pinned as a particular type of individual.

Speaker 1 (15:35):
Yeah. One of the other reasons that you state in
the book that cash is superior to digital forms of
payment is if a natural disaster comes along, So can
you maybe highlight a time in recent memory when something happened,
whether it was like a hurricane or a fire or
something like that, and cash was just a necessity for
people to transact where digital payments wouldn't suffice. And maybe

(15:58):
how that's even potentially more problem given kind of what
happens in modern warfare. These days.

Speaker 3 (16:05):
So why did I write this book. I wrote this
book to talk about two things, one individuals and two
societal reasons. And you're not switching into the societal reasons.
But only two weeks ago, the entire country of Spain,
in the entire country or Portugal, suffered a power outage
for a very long time, well over a day before
they were able to get the power back. All electronic

(16:27):
payments need three things. They need electricity, that's why they're
called electronic payments. They need communication networks because when you're
in some store or some shop, they have to communicate
to the central servers. And number three, they need computers
that are robust that have not been hacked. And in
natural disasters and in man made disasters, none of those

(16:51):
three things necessarily work. For example, the Spain and Portugal examples,
electricity went out, there was no way to do like
tronic transfers. But many of your listeners when I looked up,
are from the United States, not all, but many, And
let me talk to them about why they need to
use cash at least once a week, and it's called

(17:13):
psps's public safety power shutoffs. Back in February, we had
wildfires in Los Angeles. Who's going to be blamed for
those wildfires? Who's going to have to pay billions of
dollars or damages? And the answer is power companies. Right now.
What happened is the land dried out a little bit

(17:35):
of drought, primarily because of global warming, and then an
electrical cable fell from the power company onto the ground,
ignited some fires, and people are going to sue the
power companies. Power companies basically from west of the Mississippi
River all the way to Hawaii are looking at massive,
massive liability suits. And their answer to these massive liability

(17:59):
suits is, whenever a drought in high winds, we're going
to preemptively shut off all the power. And in the
next few years you're going to see psps's well la
is shut down for three days all the power. Why
because the local power company doesn't want to be sued
for ten billion dollars or twenty billion dollars if a
PSPs happens in your neighborhood. Electronic payments don't work, So

(18:23):
why do I encourage all listeners to use cash at
least once a week. Why don't a lot of people
say to me, well, whenever a PSPs shows up, I'll
just stuff some money in my mattress, I'll pull it
out and I'll use it. Then that's the wrong way
to think about it, because unless cash is being used
all the time. For example, clerks do not handle cash.

(18:44):
Banks aren't there. They don't have bank branches or ATMs
that can accept cash. There's no transport companies, no armored
cars able to move cash around. You need to be
using cash all the time so that when one of
these emergencies like a PSPs, like earthquake, like a hurricane happens,
that the society is like, okay, no problem. We have cash.

(19:05):
We know how to use it. People have it in
their wallets, clerks know how to handle it.

Speaker 1 (19:10):
It's a muscle. We don't want to atrophy, all right.

Speaker 3 (19:12):
It's a muscle. It's like swimming. You know, you don't
when you fall over the side of the boat. You
don't want to say I think twenty years ago, I
knew how to swim, but I haven't done lately. You know,
you need to do it every now and then to
keep going. And then when you fall out the side
the boat, you're like, damn, I'm getting wet. I lost
my beer over.

Speaker 1 (19:27):
The side of the boat.

Speaker 3 (19:28):
Okay, but I can swim back.

Speaker 1 (19:29):
To the boat.

Speaker 3 (19:30):
Okay, it's the same thing with cash. Now, let me
tell you a quick story. I went to the supermarket
a couple of weeks ago. I handed the lady some
cash for my payments, and I was supposed to get
back forty cents in change, and she smiled at me.
She pulled out four nichols handed to me A nichol
is five cents. That's four times five is twenty cents.
I smiled her and said, no, no, no, no, no, no, not

(19:52):
the right amount, and she kind of stared at me blankly.
And the head cashier was two aisles over saw what
was going on on and came over. Had explained to
the cashier the difference between nikels and dimes, and he was, ah,
I see the difference. Okay, now I get it, and
she handed me four dimes. I handed her back the
four nickels and I got my forty cents. But it

(20:12):
showed me that people are starting to lose the ability
to recognize coins. Now it's not only coins. My wife
went to the doctor just about a couple of days
after this experience happened, and my wife owes a five
dollar copay when she goes to visit the doctor's office. Okay,
five dollars. My wife only had a ten dollar bill
on her. She pulled out a ten dollar bill, handed

(20:34):
it to the receptionist. The receptor and said, yes, we
can handle cash, opened the draw and handed my wife
a fifty dollar bill. Now, my wife said, thank you
very very much. You made my day, but I don't
think you really meant to do that. And the receptionist
kind of looked at her blankly and was like what
I handed you to change, like, go sit down and
wait for the doctor. My wife was like, you gave
me back fifty dollars, not five, and she held out

(20:56):
to fifty. The receptionist looked at the fifty and was
like amazed.

Speaker 1 (20:59):
Like like I didn't know those existed.

Speaker 3 (21:02):
Almost exactly was what my wife said, right, like, wow,
five minutes zero, that's different, I guess. So we need
to be using cash so that people a understand it
and b as I said a couple of moments ago,
there's the resources for moving cash around in society.

Speaker 1 (21:21):
Yeah, you know, that makes sense. We've got a lot
more we want to get to with you, Jay, including
like Okay, how do we actually transition in a world
where digital payments are the standard and it's kind of
what everyone gravitates towards. How do we kind of buck
the system. We'll talk about that and more. Right after this, we.

Speaker 2 (21:45):
Are back with the break talking with Professor Jay z
and Jay. Right before the break, you talked to like
you were getting into the impacts on society, Like it's
almost like a public service that you are doing and
that you are encouraging all of us to do at
the very least to do this on a weekly basis.
But is this one of the reasons why we've seen
some countries resist the cashless sort of society. I was

(22:08):
actually surprised to see Japan being cited as a country
like you think of Japan, or at least I do,
I think of Tokyo.

Speaker 4 (22:16):
You think of like.

Speaker 2 (22:17):
Super modern, super modern, like like everywhere, like Blade Runner,
like twenty fifty five, like kind of modern. But talk
to us about how different countries are approaching cashless societies.

Speaker 3 (22:28):
We have a variety of ways that cash is being handled,
and places like Japan and Germany cash is still king
and countries like China and Sweden, people look at you
when you hand them cash and they're like, we don't
have any ability to handle cash in Sweden. I was
talking to somebody two days ago who lives in Sweden,
and she said, if I want cash, I have to

(22:49):
call up the bank and make an appointment two weeks
ahead of time.

Speaker 1 (22:52):
What's that?

Speaker 3 (22:53):
That's what she said? I believe her. She she said,
I lived in Sweden. My own dire life. Wow, has
disappeared so much in Sweden that I have to make
an appointment two weeks ahead of time for cash. And
that the only places in Sweden that accept cash, she said,
we're supermarkets, grocery stores and drug stores, right, so you
can get food with cash, and you can get medicine,

(23:15):
but no place else in Sweden accepts cash. Now, I
said to her, this is a national defense problem. And
why because the Swedes are very concerned about Russia and
if Russia decides to invade, Well, there's many ways of
basically bringing a country to its knees. You can vomit,

(23:36):
but a simpler way in an all electronic society is
prevent people from spending money.

Speaker 2 (23:41):
Yeah, like a patriogal Yeah, I mean, I mean, and
like I say that slightly tongue in cheek, but like
it's it's really true if you think about it, if
you think about the kind of scenario that they're in,
or if you it.

Speaker 1 (23:53):
Seems more and more likely the electronic grid being.

Speaker 2 (23:56):
Yeah, like Spain and the blackouts were like as far
as I know, they still haven't been able to identify
why that happened. And it starts like not to get
all conspiracy theory, but you start to think, man, it
really would not take much to like you said, Jay,
to bring a country to its knees. Taking the grid
off is more impactful than traphic than bombs.

Speaker 1 (24:17):
Right. So, Jay, I'm curious too if you think there's
like a moral element at play here, because when in
kind of our digital system, more and more people are
finding themselves enslave to consumerism and they find themselves with
massive amounts of debt that they can't realistically pay off.
So do you think there's and then on the yeah,

(24:37):
I don't know. I think there's like a real problem
here with how far we've gone in the digital direction
that's led to a lot of the financial instability that
a lot of households face.

Speaker 3 (24:47):
It's not only financial instability, And I agree with you
that electronic payments encourages consumerism, which is why stores really
like electronic payments, and why banks love electronic payments and are,
in my mind, trying to kill off cash because banks
don't really make any money on cash. It costs them
money to put up an ATM machine, it costs them
money to stock tellers with cash and have them hand

(25:09):
out cash with credit cards and debit cards or so
it's relatively low cost for them, and they can make
money because well, we all tend to overspend. But let's
talk about a different part of the moral argument here.
There are a number of people who are relatively poor.
I don't think anybody who's pretty poor is going to
be listening to your podcast. I'm talking about, for example,

(25:32):
people like homelessness. I spend a fair amount of time
in Seattle visiting, and the neighborhood I tend to visit
is very, very high tech and preppy. It's within walking
distance of Amazon's headquarters. Tableau is there, Seattle's Google's Seattle
headquarters is there, and almost every store. Almost every shop

(25:55):
has a sign no cash accepted, right on the front door. Now, Seattle,
if you've ever been in there, has a massive homeless population,
very very large number of homeless people. And what is
no cash accepted on the front door? Say and says
you're homeless, you don't have a credit card or a
debit card, stay out. And this is not on every

(26:16):
high end store the place I get my cup of
coffee in my bagel in the morning. When I visit Seattle,
the highest price they have I think is fourteen dollars
for like, you know, the smoked salmon bagel sandwich. And
there's a guy who sleeps across from this shop that
I've seen pretty much all the time I visit there.
That's pretty you know, he's homeless. He's homeless, and he

(26:38):
lives on in this park bench over there. If I
give him five dollars, he can't walk into the bagel
shop and buy himself a bagel and.

Speaker 1 (26:44):
A cup of coffee. It does seem messed up.

Speaker 3 (26:47):
And I'm not giving him my credit card. I'm sorry.
I'm tend to be a nice guy. But am I
handing in my credit card? You're not handing in my
cell phone and say, hey, dude, go make a mobile
payment and go buy what you want.

Speaker 2 (26:56):
Sure, I know the other things I think about too,
just I mean we're talking about some of the different
implications on society, and I mean, in this case you're
talking about the poor. I also think about kids as well,
And lately I have found myself jay reverting back to
using cash. I think when Joel and I first started
talking about personal finance a little more regularly here on

(27:18):
the podcast, and we were like, oh, man, we're going
to do this. I'm not going to say the company's nay,
but as a company and you have like a little
card that's associated with it, and you're able to electronically
move the money.

Speaker 1 (27:28):
For kids as young as like six or seven. Yeah,
And I realized that.

Speaker 2 (27:32):
We completely just jumped the gun when it came to
implementing a system like that. But talk about that, how
the elimination of cash, and how that could prevent our
ability to teach our kids about money spending saving.

Speaker 3 (27:46):
I want to teach talk to you about a full
letter word, and that's called math and A and before
you can actually start teaching kids about making sound financial decisions.
And I'm all full of sound financial decisions. You have
to each amount of count, how to basically figure out
fractions and things like that. And if we don't use cash,

(28:07):
then we tend not to use our mathematical skills. Quick example,
if I'm using cash in a supermarket, I am adding
up as I throw items into my cart. I'm going, Okay,
this costs you two dollars, this costs four dollars, and
I keep a running total because I don't want to
be embarrassed when I go show up with the cash
here and go oops, I don't have enough money. Okay.

(28:28):
But when I'm using a credit card, and occasionally I
know I'm going to be using a credit card because
I just ran out of money, or I really have
to spend more and I don't know what I have
to buy. For example, we're having a party and the
wife says to me, Okay, we got about twenty people,
and I don't know exactly what we need, so I'm
going to use a credit card. When I use a
credit card, I stop accounting, I stop doing math in

(28:48):
my head.

Speaker 1 (28:49):
Is it kind of like using a GPS and how
we forget to get how to get places in it?

Speaker 3 (28:55):
Right? You have no idea how to get places, even
if it's local and you might have been there four
or five times. It's like without GPS, I can't do it.

Speaker 1 (29:01):
That's right.

Speaker 3 (29:02):
So math is really important for teaching small children. Sorry,
cash is really useful for teaching small children math ideas.
Fractions really easy to explain using something like coins. What's
a quarter? Well, a quarter of something is, you know,
twenty five cents? You know four quarters equal a dollar?

(29:22):
And when people play with cash at five, six, seven
years old, they go, oh, I get it.

Speaker 1 (29:27):
Yeah. One of the arguments you make Jay in the book,
which kind of shocked me. I wasn't expecting to see
because you're making the case for math and how the
more we use cash, the better our mass skills are.
It's good, especially for kids, it's good, but even as
adults try to keep that skill around. But you also
argue that using cash keeps you healthier. And I was like,
h what's that about? Do you have any data to

(29:48):
back that up? How do we How is using cash
going to make us healthier people?

Speaker 3 (29:52):
So you're talking about one of the points in my book,
the Power of Cash, which I hope everybody listening to
this reads. But there's a couple of studies out there
that show when people pay cash, they actually pay more
attention to what they're putting in their supermarket shopping card.

Speaker 4 (30:08):
Huh.

Speaker 3 (30:09):
And when you're not paying with cash, you're just using credit.
You just sort of throw things in. And you asked
at the beginning of the show my weakness, and I
told you about large, large bottles of wine. I try
and use cash as much as possible. It's very hard
to write a book called The Power of Cash and
not use cash a lot. But let me be honest
with you. I do have a credit card in my wallet,

(30:31):
and occasionally I use that credit card for buying things.
And typically it's at Costco because Costco is a sort
of surprise. You walk in, you have no idea what
you're going to see there. And oftentimes I walk into
Costco with about one hundred dollars in my wallet and
I have, you know, three things in mind. I'm gonna
buy some milk, some eggs, and maybe some fish and
that's it. Bang, I'm gonna have plenty of money left over.

(30:52):
And then I walk by like the chocolates and the champagne,
and I'm like ooh. And the moment I say I
am not going to use cash, Okay, I can use
a credit card, I just start throwing all kind of
junk into my car because it's like, well, I've eliminated
the constraint on spending, and I've also limited the constraint
on eating healthy.

Speaker 2 (31:12):
And Jay is also throwing a greenhouse in his cart
while he's at it as well, anything your house go.

Speaker 3 (31:18):
Actually, I looked at the small Children's playhouse last week.
When I was walking through there, it was like five
hundred and ninety nine dollars. I was like ooh, and
the wife was like, come on order to fit in
a car. I was like, oh, this is so cool
for the kids to play in.

Speaker 1 (31:31):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (31:31):
But once again, when you suddenly say okay, I'm not
using cash, you lose that constraint, and you can lose
that constraint both nutritionally but also on anything else that
why it would be nice to have, wouldn't it until
you get the bill thirty days later.

Speaker 2 (31:47):
I feel like that there's also something there when it
comes to health, and even I don't know this, This
might be a little more out there and a little
more woo woo, But the germs even that are like,
I guess you're talking about being healthy? Makes me even
think about that, right? And you think terms we get
from touching cash, yes, and like kids who grow up
like on a farm, they're exposed to other allergens, different viruses,

(32:09):
things like that, as opposed to the boy who grew
up in a bubble, right, And there's there's a big
difference when it comes to the antibodies that And I
don't I'm not like a scientist or anything like that,
but I know.

Speaker 4 (32:18):
There's a there's plenty of a holiday and last backing
that as well. But I don't. I don't hear you
making that argument necessarily, Jay.

Speaker 3 (32:26):
I'm not making the argument. But a lot of people
call you know it's filthy cash, right, I don't want
to touch it? Who else has touched it? And then
my response to them is, Okay, you just pulled out
your debit card and when you put your debit card
into the machine asks you for your pin number, right,
and you had to type in your pin. Did anyone
clean that pin machine? Though not not mon probably not
so since no one cleaned the pin machine, why is

(32:49):
the cash cleaner or dirtier than the pin machine you
were just touching with your fingers, I.

Speaker 2 (32:54):
Will say that's why the double click to pay using Apple,
the Apple wallet or whatever other different digital walls they
had built in. I think that's a part of why
that those have gained so much team as well, because
I mean you barely have to wait, yeah, you barely
have to wave the card or the phone in front
of the device. But I thought Jay was gonna say,
it's not filthy cash, it's the filthy data that's being collected.

Speaker 3 (33:14):
A lot of people. I also know, I said, oh,
I just love my cell phone because only I'm the
one touching my cell phone. And you know what drives
me crazy is how many people use their cell phone
in the bathroom. Excuse me, So you're using your phone,
I'm being serious. How many times have you sent install
in somebody's next to you is like having a screaming
conversation with their so their children or something like that.

(33:36):
And I'm like, free story, yeah, and like your phone
is now clean? I don't think so. I didn't see
you washing your hands and your phone.

Speaker 1 (33:44):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (33:44):
The worst part, honestly is knowing that truth. But then
at restaurants are purveyors of food who are selling and
they've got like either they're waiting on the next customer
and they've got their phone out and then they set
it down on the same counter that maybe they're cutting sandwiches,
and like, I know, there's got to be health code
violin against pulling out your peres up in here cell phones.
That's just a small pep peple of mind that we

(34:04):
don't talk about.

Speaker 1 (34:05):
It, right, So I want to I want to ask Jay,
like you, you started off this conversation by saying, Hey,
I just want to convince you to use cash once
a week. I think you have convinced me of that.
Do you have like an ultimate end goal here? Is
it saying no, I want people to use cash fifty
to sixty percent of the time. Is it really just
to keep cash around or is it all these added

(34:26):
benefits that individuals get from using cash on the regular
and not pulling out their credit card or their Apple pay.

Speaker 3 (34:31):
So right now, in the United States, last year, the
banking system spent over one billion dollars advertising credit cards,
not including crypto ads or any of these other things,
just basic credit card advertising. And I'm up against a
one billion dollar advertising campaign, and as we all know,
advertising is very very effective. So I'm trying to start

(34:54):
with something really small, you know, use cash at least
once a week, keep it in circulation. My hope is
that if you start using cash once a week and
you read the book The Power of Cash and go, Wow,
there's a whole bunch of benefits, You're going to use
it more and more often. I am an extreme advocate
for using paper money, but I would say right now,
I'm about two thirds paper money one third electronics. And

(35:17):
why do I use things electronically because to some places
that you just can't use cash. If I use cash
and bought an airplane ticket, my guess is I'd be
on the TSA watch list. Terror I'm being serious, that's true.
I mean, I don't know who gets on the TSA
watch list, but it's really tough to you know, the
certain things. If I want to book a hotel for

(35:40):
two or three weeks from now for when I'm speaking
in some other place, I can't use cash. I can't
like fly there three weeks ahead of time, pay them
cash and then come back. So I know that there's
a place for electronic payments. But what I'm really concerned
about is we have lost the idea that cash is useful.
And my whole goal here is to people cash is useful.

(36:01):
It has so many wonderful benefits, and by using it
just once or twice a week, you might see more
benefits and start using it more often.

Speaker 1 (36:09):
It keeps those wheels greased. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (36:11):
Now, Jay, you're making a great case here, and we've
got more to get to. We'll talk about for some
folks actually transitioning back to cash, maybe what that would take.
We'll get to that and more.

Speaker 1 (36:20):
Right after this, we're back still talking with Professor j
Z from Boston University. And Jay, you mentioned briefly before
the break cryptocurrency and bitcoin, and it's interesting because you're fighting.

(36:41):
It feels like the battle you're fighting is not only
this uphill battle against the forces of billion dollar marketing
budgets like you mentioned too, but it's also hey, young people,
they're all about trading the cryptos and potentially using the
cryptos in the future to buy stuff. So far from
cash becoming cool again, crypto is popping. Is what's your
answer to the cryptocurrency movement as someone who is a

(37:05):
proponent of cash.

Speaker 3 (37:06):
So I'm not against cryptocurrency in any way, shape or form.
But the problem with cryptocurrency is you need a electricity
and you need an Internet connection in order to access that.
And as we see more and more, for example, natural
disasters or more and more potential for war in the world.
The ability for you to use cryptocurrency is I would

(37:30):
say suspect, and I don't remember the exact place I
read it, but I remember the very beginning of the
Ukrainian War and they interviewed some person who was really
big into cryptocurrency, and the guy was like, wow, I
thought I was protected because I had cryptocurrency, but we
don't have Internet because the Russian missiles, Russian missiles best

(37:50):
really take took out the Internet. I can't access my wallet.
My digital wallet is like offline to me. So the
idea of cryptocurrency, that's okay. I don't see any difference
between cryptocurrency in my mind and using say a credit
card or a debit card, except for cryptocurrency isn't going
to charge you relatively high interest rates.

Speaker 2 (38:10):
Right, Okay, So I'm hearing what you're saying. You're talking
about at least using it once a week. Actually, this
also makes me think about two how I mean, and
we talked about higher prices, but it also makes me
think about how like at restaurants now more and more
we're seeing the discounts where it's just like, hey, by
the way, if you pay with credit card's going to
be two to three percent more expensive.

Speaker 1 (38:28):
I bet Jay loves that. He's always yeah, the surcharge
from gestations, it makes it clear, It makes it incredibly transparent.

Speaker 2 (38:36):
But Jay, for most folks who aren't used to using cash,
how much would you recommend for them to start sliding
in the wallet? You know, I've got like the head
and twenty behind my behind my driver's license, But it
sounds like you're recommending for maybe me to increase that amount.

Speaker 1 (38:51):
What would you recommend to folks?

Speaker 3 (38:53):
So my recommendation is probably what a lot of your
recommenders have been before, and that's keep a little of
a budget, right, And once you figure out what your
budget is, you know roughly what you spend per week.
And my recommendation is keep roughly about a week around
in your walls week's worth of cash. Going to an ATM,

(39:14):
going to a bank as a pain all right, takes
a little bit of extra time. How often do you
want to do that for me? I like filling out
my car like once a week. I like going to
the bank like once a week.

Speaker 1 (39:24):
That's enough.

Speaker 3 (39:24):
If I have to go to the bank every day
or fill up my car every day. It's like, this's
a hassle. I don't want to do it. So the
goal is to use cash but not destroy your life
becoming sure you know, you don't want to become best
friends with the teller at the bank where they know
your name is you walk in the door.

Speaker 1 (39:40):
Yeah, what about pennies? Jay? Is that's all we can
agree on that pennies should be eliminated. There's been a
lot more talk about that.

Speaker 3 (39:46):
We'll get to pennies in thirty seconds. Okay, but let
me go back to restaurants for a minute. Okay, let's
talk about restaurants. Waiters, waitresses, bartenders, and things like that.
You swipe your credit card, you swipe your debit card.
What happens we'll talk in the credit card instant. The
owner of that restaurant says, oh, the tip that you
just gave to the waiter waitress, I'm not giving them
that tip until I get payment from the credit card company.

(40:09):
And there's often a multi week holdback period, So that
waight er waitress that you really like to say, thank you,
great meal, great service, is going to have to wait two, three,
four weeks before they get paid. You pay them cash.
You say thank you right away. I don't know about you,
but I like being thanked immediately instead of having to
wait three weeks.

Speaker 1 (40:29):
Yeah, all right, pennies, you what are your thoughts?

Speaker 3 (40:31):
Okay, pennies. If you google Jason Goiski on the internet,
you will see that I've written a number of articles
in defense of the penny. Okay that said, as inflation
keeps going higher and higher and higher, pennies, well, they're
going to be eliminated sooner or later, okay, because they're
going to be totally worthless. It's a shame, but it

(40:54):
is what it is. But let's talk about today. This
very moment, during the Super Bowl, Donald Trump sent out
on truth Social message that I've instructed the Mint to
stop making pennies. I don't know if you remember that.

Speaker 1 (41:06):
I do remember that.

Speaker 3 (41:07):
So he basically said, the supply of pennies is stopping
right now, but he's done nothing about the demand for pennies.
Stores need to be legally told to round prices away
from pennies up to the nearest either nickel or dime,
and the only institution that can do that is Congress.

(41:28):
So while Donald Trump says via truth Social that there's
no more pennies. It's not actually true, and stores without
giving you your change or without doing rounding up, for example,
would actually be breaking the law. And pennies they're still
going to need to be around until Congress passes legislation

(41:48):
that says we have to do rounding to either the
nickel or the dime level.

Speaker 1 (41:52):
And that with sales tax I feel like throws an
extra wrench in there, right that the price, well, you
know what you're charging, and then you you've got to
throw the sales tax on, which could be seven point
two percent or eight point one percent, and then that
kind of makes it makes the math harder too.

Speaker 3 (42:08):
It does, indeed, it does, indeed, which is why I
don't think pennies are going to go away until Congress
passes a legislation to do that. And I'm in favor
if Congress wants to pass legislation says let's round to
the nearest nickel or dime, I'd fully support that, But
I do not support the ability for a president to say,

(42:28):
via social media tweet, I've killed the penny.

Speaker 1 (42:32):
Yeah, it makes sense. Jay.

Speaker 2 (42:34):
So one last, maybe more personal question. I'm trying to
be practical here and you're talking about folks having a
week's worth of expenses on hand? How much if you
feel comfortable sharing? Do you have I guess, either in
your house or just some more secure when it comes
to cash, because you were talking about the just the
ability to pay right like that was one of your ps.
And if grids go down, if the different networks are

(42:57):
unable to communicate with each other, and you've got cash
on hand, okay, well that buys you a certain amount
of time. Like we talk about the emergency fund right
that we keep in Hyo Sam's accounts. But are you
keeping a larger amount of physical cash yourself somewhere that
you can access in case something like this were to happen.

Speaker 3 (43:15):
So I keep either on my wallet. If I added
up everything in my wallet and what I've had stuffed
in the mattress here at the home, I have three weeks.

Speaker 1 (43:25):
Weeks because is it literally stuffed in the mattress? Are
you joking?

Speaker 3 (43:28):
I'm joking about stuff. I think some socks might be
stuffed in my things like that. I am missing a
couple that I can't find, so I'm sure it's probably
hiding under there. I have about three weeks because you
know things will come back in three weeks.

Speaker 1 (43:44):
Right.

Speaker 3 (43:45):
There is all kinds of support mechanisms in countries like
the United States when natural disaster happens, but you can't
assume those natural support those support mechanisms are going to
happen in the first couple of days. So between my
wallet and what's stuff under the mattress, it's about three weeks.
And that's really what I recommend to people. I'm not
saying keep massive amounts of cash around, don't make yourself

(44:08):
a victim of theft, okay, But I am saying keep
it going. And if we all keep it going, then
I would even probably recommend only two weeks, because if
I know there's lots of ATMs around, and if I
know there's lots of other things that are able to
generate cash and get cash recycled into the economy, then

(44:30):
two weeks might be plenty.

Speaker 1 (44:31):
That's great advice. The book is The Power of Cash.
Jase of Gorsky, Professor Jason Gorsky, thank you so much
for joining us today on the show. Where would you
send our listeners to so they can find more of
of your writings and your thoughts about cash in particular.

Speaker 3 (44:46):
So the book is called The Power of Cash and
you can go to the Power Offcash dot Com all
one word, no spaces, no underlines or anything of the
Power offcash dot Com.

Speaker 1 (44:56):
Wonderful. We appreciate your time. Thank you, Professor j It's been.

Speaker 3 (44:59):
A lot of fun. Look forward to being on the
show again.

Speaker 2 (45:02):
Indeed, hopefully we will be talking with Professor jay Z.
I like we talked to him initially at the beginning
of Real jay Z. At the beginning of the episode,
I was like, do you mind if we call you professor?
Jay Z is like, well, that's what my students call
me as well, so I think he kind of leans
into it. He's like, you're not married to Beyonce, and
he was like, my wife is far more beautiful. He's like,

(45:22):
but my actual birth certificate does say I'm there jay
Z as opposed to what's jay Z's actual name, Carter?

Speaker 1 (45:28):
Sean Carter? I think is it Sean Kart saw something
like that.

Speaker 2 (45:30):
Yeah, But that being said, a great little conversation we
had here with jay Joel. Did you have a good,
uh maybe a practical takeaway.

Speaker 1 (45:38):
For folks or what was your big take away? I
think when he the line that he said when he
said we have lost the idea that cash is useful
is spot on, like I, we've written it off and yeah,
and I feel that in myself, like I have kind
of lost that idea. And honestly, you have this conversation
and makes me want to rethink some things about how
I utilize cash in my life, and in particular something

(45:59):
like Amazon. You and I were just talking about that,
Like it's not the one hundred and forty dollars a
year or one hundred and sixty. I forget what Amazon
Prime costs right now that I'd be saving by not
having Amazon Prime. It's that sort of knee jerk, painless
way of buying things.

Speaker 4 (46:15):
The fact that the wheels are so greased.

Speaker 2 (46:17):
Yeah, man, it's like our fingers just automatically go to.

Speaker 1 (46:22):
Yeah, click to person. I think a lot of smart
people might say marketing doesn't impact me, or digital payments
don't impact me, and I think for a long time
maybe I would have said that I was in that camp, like, no,
I'm not spending more because I pay digitally, But the
truth is I do. And if I did add extra
pain points in there, like going to the bank to
get the money, I would be more thoughtful about how
I use that money. So I don't know, I don't

(46:44):
hold me to it. I don't know if I'm going
to cancel Amazon Prime, but like it really does maybe
want to think more and more about leaning into using cash.
Maybe I'll think, you know, some small steps in that
direction and then potentially get to know even more extreme measures.

Speaker 2 (46:56):
Yeah, I'm with you, man, And this is something I've
shared the past few months. But I've sort of I've
been reassessing how it is I use credit cards even
and I've thought through like should I just completely simplify
and only have a singular card as opposed to trying
to jump through the hoops and play the game? And
what I'm asking myself is that is this a game
that I want to continue to play? And you couple

(47:18):
that with the fact that there is likely increased spending
even at the grocery store, right, like not even just
like online purchasing, but even like he said, if you
have a sort of a finite set amount, a hard
limit of money you know that's actually in your wallet
or in your purse, I think that we are going
to be more likely to spend our money wisely on
things that provide nutrition as opposed to fun things even

(47:40):
like booze, right, like, like that's a fun thing. It's
not necessary, but we do it because yes, we have
budgeted for it. But I do think we might be
a little more judicious in our spending for sure.

Speaker 1 (47:51):
And we're seeing more cash discounts these days, which should
incentivize even more to think about that. So that's why.
So that's my big takeaway.

Speaker 2 (47:56):
That's why I was asking him specifically, how much do
you keep then on your person? Because practically speaking, I'm like, well,
I've got a twenty or a couple twenties in there,
but that doesn't get you very far. Like that, I
mean that maybe buys my Kate and I a beer,
like if we go to our local brewery with you know,
with tip, that doesn't get you very far. So him
recommending to keep a week's worth, and like you said,

(48:18):
you don't want to make your life miserable, But if
this is something that you want to try out, take
your monthly spend amount, divide that by four or just
I guess, take a look at the month and kind
of a lot how much money, how much cash you
should have on your person for those expenses? In particular
for us, it would be it would be groceries and
entertainment as I think through areas of spending where there's
perhaps an elevated amount of discretionary spending that we could

(48:41):
cut back on. Yeah, so I don't know that's I
think I'm actually going to do that. I'm going to
do that. And I was really interested in how much
money he kept at his place, some more securely in
his actual.

Speaker 1 (48:49):
And then you're like, what's your address, Shay. We make
sure full bars in the backyard too.

Speaker 2 (48:54):
He felt comfortable sharing, and I appreciate his transparency there.
But I think that's something that Yeah, like you said,
you don't want to make yourself a target, but do
you have enough on hand to weather literal storms that
might be taking place, but actual other financial or you know,
like foreign terrorism, other I'm not like a prepper, but
I do think a little bit more in that direction,

(49:15):
Joal than you do.

Speaker 1 (49:16):
So and we don't want to lose that muscle altogether,
like cash as a society. Yeah, and again what he
said too about people who only have cash, like how
they're excluded from certain plans. I mean there's a lot
of takeaways we as a society should care about this.

Speaker 2 (49:29):
The beer that you and I enjoyed though on this
episode is called a sun kissed This was a tart
wheat ale brewed with tangerine by our friends over at
Edmund's Oast. And we don't actually have friends over there,
but anytime we.

Speaker 4 (49:41):
Wish, we did a beer by a brewery that I like, I.

Speaker 2 (49:43):
Call them my friends because they're doing something for me.
I'm doing something for them. Ye would you think of
this one?

Speaker 1 (49:49):
So good tart tangerini? I think Edmonds Ost is one
of those breweries like I'm only tangentially familiar with. I
don't know if i'd call them my friends because I've
only had a few beers, but have.

Speaker 2 (49:59):
You It's that's one of the brevies I want to
go to because it's close enough that it sounds like
a fun trips. So it's out there in Charleston. Yeah,
and it's one of the ones I've yet to visit,
but I want to.

Speaker 1 (50:08):
It's one of these days I will. But this one. Yeah,
everything I've had from them has been like rock solid
good and this is like just a nice, like sunny
summer ale right here. So this is like perfect time
to be drinking this beer.

Speaker 2 (50:18):
Yeah, when we first poured it, something about the way
it smelled like it it smelled like aggressively tart, and
I don't know, it doesn't sail on here that it
was brewed with lactobisillus or whatever, but it reminds me
of like a wild athena from creature comforts. And sometimes
it depends I guess the kind of mooderin. It can
come across as a stringent where it's a little ooh,
it's almost like two mouthfucker, yeah, like like where it

(50:41):
almost feels like it's breaking down the lining of your
mouth a little bit, like.

Speaker 4 (50:44):
When you drink it. But I think it's because of
the tangerine. They balanced it out and so.

Speaker 2 (50:48):
It had enough sweetness to balance out the overall flavor profile.

Speaker 1 (50:52):
So I was.

Speaker 4 (50:53):
I was, Yeah, I enjoyed.

Speaker 1 (50:54):
It.

Speaker 2 (50:54):
Was pleasantly surprised, and maybe I shouldn't have been, because yeah,
I really really enjoyed this one.

Speaker 1 (50:58):
No, Steph, Alright, that's gonna do it for this one.
If you want links to Professor Jay's book and some
of the other resources we've got to mentioned on this show,
check out our show notes. They're up on the website
at howtomoney dot com.

Speaker 4 (51:08):
You know a buddy, So until next time, best friends out,
Best friends out,