Everybody has heard of a consumer advocate before- someone who helps to make sure that individuals are getting the best deal possible. Or to make sure that the quality of the products is up to snuff. For instance think of Consumer Reports and the countless reporting and tests they perform on the different items we use as consumers. But you likely haven’t heard of a ‘non-consumer advocate’ before and that’s who we’re talking with today; our friend Katy Wolk-Stanley! Katy’s site is TheNonConsumerAdvocate.com and she helps people learn to live on less, and to do so in a way that lessens their environmental impact. She’s an uber-frugalite who hardly ever buys anything new, and she uses that superpower to help others to live on as little income as possible. In this episode we discuss some of the different tactics that anyone can deploy: prioritizing lower tech solutions that last, how Katy easily fixes her broken household items, how minimalism and frugalism compliment each other, selling items on eBay, getting tax breaks for donating to Goodwill, and more!
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Welcome to how to Money. I'm Joel and I am Matt,
and today we're discussing how you can use it up,
wear it out, make it do, or do without with
Katie Wolke Stanley.
Speaker 2 (00:29):
That's right, yeah, So everybody has heard of a consumer
advocate before, right, Like that's someone who helps to make
sure that individuals are getting the best deal possible, or
maybe to make sure that the quality of those products
is up to snuff. I'm thinking of consumer reports, the
countless reporting and tests that they perform on basically any
item out there that you can buy. But you likely
(00:49):
haven't heard of a non consumer advocate before, and that
is who we're talking with today, our friend Katie Wolke Stanley.
Katie is the non consumer advocate. Her site is the
Consumer Advocate dot com, and she helps people to learn
to live on less and to do so in a
way that lessens their environmental impact. She is an uber
frugal light who hardly ever buys anything new, and she
(01:12):
uses that superpower to tell others to live on as little
income as possible. So we're gonna be talking about all
these different tactics today that anyone out there can do.
You know, whether you choose to, that's up to you.
But we are excited for our conversation today, Katie, thank
you for joining us on the podcast.
Speaker 3 (01:29):
Thank you so much, Joeling, Matt for having me.
Speaker 1 (01:31):
All Right, Katie, I'm really curious to hear your answer
to the question that we ask everybody when they come
on the show, Because you are you approach buying things
differently than pretty much any guess we've had on before.
So Matt and I we splurge on craft beer and
even while we're saving the investing for the future. Is
there something you splurge on in the here and now?
I don't even know well what.
Speaker 3 (01:53):
I splurge on here and now. It changes like through
the years as I've gone through different points in life.
At the moment, what I love to e splurge on
is my adult kids. Although at twenty four and twenty seven,
they have gone to college, they've graduated, they have flown
the coup, they work full time. I know that money
(02:15):
is tight for them, and so I like to be
able to take them out to eat. I like to
slip them a little money here and there. They don't
ask for money and so they really appreciate it and
it's a treat. My parents, certainly, you know, did a
little bit of that when I was young and just
getting started in my adult life, and I'm happy and
(02:36):
privileged to be able to do it for them.
Speaker 2 (02:38):
I love it. I guess that never goes away because
there's a certain you know, Jiel having three, me having
four kids, there's obviously a certain amount of that that
we do now while still trying to find that balance
of making sure that they understand the money. It doesn't
just grow on trees. But maybe after you teach them
those lessons, maybe you feel a little more freedom to
slip them some bills.
Speaker 3 (02:58):
Yeah, then instead of chocolates for Valentine's Day, I gave
me one hundred bucks. There you go.
Speaker 2 (03:03):
I mean, that's come on, that's what That's what we need.
We don't need more sugar in our diets cause off
that inflammation or whatever it is. Of anyway, Katie, your slogan,
or like the moniker that your site is, goes by
is use it up, wear it out, make it do
or do without. And we'll kind of cover each of these,
we'll cover the spectrum of how these kind of play
(03:23):
out in your life. But can you first tell us
why that has become your motto? Where did you come
across that? And why is it you know that that
resonates with you.
Speaker 3 (03:32):
So it is a term that I certainly did not
make up myself. You'll find it used during World War Two.
That was like an effort to get people to kind
of be more thoughtful with how they were consuming goods
that needed to be used for the war effort. But
(03:52):
apparently it goes back farther than that. I've had different
people say it was like, oh, that's an old Yankee term,
or that's a New England term. So I don't I've
never really been able to find out, you know, where
precisely it came up. But whenever I've come across that,
even like long before I was blogging, it just really
resonated with me, and I was like, that is great.
(04:13):
It's so like concise and yet it's it's wide and meaningful.
Speaker 1 (04:19):
Yeah, it feels so kind of like foreign to the
way so many people live life today though, So it
is interesting that we were talking before we started recording
about how about Rabbid fan bases, And I think that
people who follow you they are kind of rabbit in
that way, like because and I think part of it
is because this slogan is so antithetical to kind of
so much of the way our modern society functions.
Speaker 3 (04:42):
Yes, especially when it's just so easy to you. Don't
you have to go on your computer to buy stuff.
You know, you've got that Amazon app and you just like,
you know, swiped to buy. It's so easy and frankly
so cheap. But I mean, yeah, this thing is how
is this saying seven dollars and it includes shipping when
(05:03):
you know the shipping costs more than that if we
were to ship it ourselves. People want a different perspective,
and I think that is why people, as you said,
a rabbit, I would just say more loyal yeah to.
Speaker 1 (05:17):
Me at crazy, I don't know, I see them foaming
at the mouth all the time.
Speaker 2 (05:21):
Following.
Speaker 1 (05:23):
I am curious though, because yeah, you say, use it up,
wear it out, and make it do or do without.
And so what makes your your list of things that
you will purchase brand new?
Speaker 2 (05:33):
Are there? Is there anything? Or like?
Speaker 3 (05:36):
Absolutely they are absolutely things that I do buy new
and I start and by the way, I started the
buy nothing new practice myself even before I started blogging,
So that was I think, like in two thousand and six,
two thousand and seven. I am not out there like
looking for a used toothbrush, so I would categorize that
(06:00):
or like a personal care item. Okay, something that is
like touching my body in that way. I don't mean
like clothes, but floss, tooth fresh undergarments. I think, you know,
although I have bought used socks before because you can
just wash them and sometimes they look amazing.
Speaker 2 (06:20):
Well, and your feet are so peripheral, I mean, you know,
like they're basically the closer you get to the core
of your body. Eye too. Would also want to like
the further it gets away from my face or my mouth.
I think I would be more comfortable with, uh, with
going a little more used.
Speaker 3 (06:34):
We bought a brand new mattress at this point, like
two years ago. And although I have gotten a used
mattress before, and I got it from somebody that I knew,
that was just not something I wanted to use. There's
just two much. Once you start thinking of bed bugs,
you can't stop thinking about it.
Speaker 2 (06:51):
Right, Well, that might be one area where I've got
you beat, Katie, because we my wife and I slept
actually no, shoot, we still have this mattress. Our daughter
is now sleeping on it. But we got to use
mattress for free from a neighbor.
Speaker 3 (07:04):
But we knew them.
Speaker 2 (07:05):
They're neighbors of a friend of ours, so they knew them,
and so implicitly, I guess we trusted them. But I'm
telling you it's a good mattress. Yeah, and it's anything
we regretted. I sometimes getting stuff off the side of
the road can be a little daunting. I had a
friend who brought home a chair that looked nice, but
then it had bedbugs, and that caused a whole mess.
So you want to avoid that, just burn the whole
apartment down. I guess right, that's the case.
Speaker 3 (07:28):
I do a lot of curbside shopping and a tremendous
amount of thrifting for things that I want and need,
And if it's even slightly something that could have bedbugs,
I examine it in the store, and then I also
leave it on my porch so I can give it
a better examination. I've never had get the headline something
(07:50):
that I would call a cautionary tale from that though.
Speaker 2 (07:53):
Got it okay. Well, so we're kind of talking about
I don't know, just buying stuff new Katie, Like, do
you have any thoughts on buying things that are more
well made, like things that are higher quality that come
with maybe better warranties. Is that important to you, you know,
when when you're at least occasionally buying something that that
hasn't previously been used.
Speaker 3 (08:11):
Yes, although mostly I really don't buy that much stuff.
And I understand what you're getting at. To you, buying
like a higher quality item from a responsible company exactly,
warranty that will stand behind their product is always like
the ideal. My goal is to then just get it
(08:32):
used when the person who initially bought it gets bored
with it.
Speaker 2 (08:36):
I like that well.
Speaker 1 (08:37):
And one of the things that you've you've written about,
you've talked about too, is that you prioritize lower tech
solutions because those things need to be replaced less frequently.
And I think, like you've mentioned tea kettles, and it's
funny because we went to like an electric tea kettle,
but we've had like they didn't last very long, and
so I'm like, do I need to go back to
just this basic like just kettle on the on the
(08:58):
stove things. That's I mean, that's kind of your approach right, Yes,
I do.
Speaker 3 (09:02):
Have a kettle on the stove, and it is such
an although it's not that old, it is probably I know,
fifteen years old at this point. It's exactly the one
that you can see on the show mad Men, so
it's classically a rever one. But yeah, I don't want
things that I'm going to have to replace. I did
(09:23):
just buy a new refrigerator this fall, now that I
think of it, and I did get one that had
like zero bells and whistles. The less that's going on
with the stuff that you own, the less that can
go wrong with it.
Speaker 2 (09:35):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (09:35):
Yeah, you don't want your fridge connected to the internet
with like a tablet on it and all this other
kind of stuff. You're right, I mean I think that
that is like there's more stuff to replace, and it's
the same kind of with modern cars often these days too.
Speaker 3 (09:47):
And if it's simpler, it's something that you could conceivably
repair yourself with a good YouTube video.
Speaker 2 (09:52):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (09:52):
Yep, Okay, so I think you're right on that, And
I guess like a lot of people opt to replace
items that.
Speaker 2 (10:00):
I could easily be fixed.
Speaker 1 (10:01):
But you have described yourself as a serial repairer, and
I remember when we've worked together, Katie back in the day,
and I learned about this thing called sue grew from you,
which is like multiple clay and glue which helps repair
all sorts of things. I think you actually sent me
some in the mail, and I love I love that
like that you yeah, And I love that you're just
(10:24):
kind of all about like fixing stuff whenever you can, so, like,
do you have any best DIY tips for fixing things
that break from time to time in your life?
Speaker 3 (10:33):
I've just said it, but YouTube, there is very rarely
something that you're trying to figure out how to do
that you can't find on YouTube that somebody else has
done themselves and put together a video about it. You
don't need to invent the wheel. My husband and I
we both just you know, if something is wrong, we
want to know how can we fix this? How can
(10:56):
and in that way we're able to avoid making new purchases.
An example is I was at my son's rental house.
I noticed that they had a busted up dining room
chair in the corner of the room, and I asked
his roommate, Hey, do you want me to fix this?
And he was like, what I'm like, that looks prepaarable.
(11:17):
Would you want me to fix this? And he was like, uh, okay,
I guess lady. Just you know his roommate's mom. So
brought it home and it just was a matter of
gluing and clamping in a couple of different stages, and
my son took it back last night. And it is
not a beautiful chair to be handed down to your ancestors,
(11:41):
but you know what, it's now a functional piece and
it literally saves it from the landfill and makes it
so that they can have like a you know, proper
number of people at the dining room table if that
ever worked, which.
Speaker 2 (11:54):
Is honestly, that's that's the most important thing, right, the
ability for folks to gather around that table. I mean
with furniture in particular, when you have older furniture that
isn't just particle board, it's made from real wood. You
can glue it right, like wood glue, like joints or
whatever where you've used glue. I've learned from personal experience.
It's all. I mean, I think it's stronger than other
parts of the chair, Like it's not going to break
(12:15):
there again if you have a good bond. But how
do you know like when something is beyond repairing, because
it's difficult to know, just like is this something that
I can tackle myself for, Like, how do you know
when it truly is time to just toss it out
and replace it completely?
Speaker 3 (12:30):
Well, there isn't necessarily like a single single answer to that.
But I'm going to go back to the example of
the refrigerator that my husband and I just got from Costco.
You'll like that, Joel love me. They stayin their products.
So that was yeah. And this fridge that we had
that we've had since nineteen ninety eight, so I remember
(12:51):
my son was an infant. It was not like a
great quality item, and so we've done a lot of
little repairs and my husband finally, after countless repairs through
the years, was like, you know what, I can't figure
this out. I think it's the compressor. So we went out.
We got a bare bones one, which by the way,
got lightly scratched during the delivery process, and Pasto gave
(13:15):
us like one hundred and fifty two hundred bucks back.
Sweet Yeah, and for it, Paul, I wasn't you know,
I'm a Karen. Talk to your manager, lady. They offered it.
Speaker 1 (13:30):
Oh, nice. Okay, Well, that's the kind of company they are,
you know, they do stuff like that, which is.
Speaker 3 (13:34):
They treat their employees well and they pay a living wage.
So that's who I want to when I am buying
new stuff. I look for companies like that to give
my money to.
Speaker 2 (13:43):
Who you buy from is really important. But so, I mean,
it sounds like for y'all with the fridge, it kind
of came down to the maybe the total cost of
the repair perhaps was going to total the item. And
so maybe that's a decent rule of thumb for folks
to kind of keep in mind. If you're going to
be sinking more money into this repair and even still
have the subpar then maybe it's time.
Speaker 1 (14:02):
It's kind of like if you have a car that's
old car that's worth thirty five hundred bucks and you've
got it, it's like transmission and replacement time. You're like, yeah, okay,
it probably doesn't make sense to repair this thing anymore.
It's time to yeah, parcel this from out for parts.
Speaker 3 (14:14):
Yeah, we're driving very old car right now, and you
know we just keep string.
Speaker 1 (14:18):
It well and yeah, and it makes sense, right. I
I think we talked about on the show recently, I
spent two hundred and eighty eight dollars to replace I
want to say it was a solenoid or something like that,
and so I had to get it replaced just to
pass the emissions test or they won't let me drive
in the state of Georgia.
Speaker 2 (14:34):
Three hundred bucks. Yeah, totally.
Speaker 1 (14:35):
I was like, I was like really excited to spend
the money on that because it prevents me from having
a car payment. And and I think you're right, like,
the more we think about what we're using and how
much we're consuming on the front end, it kind of
helps us to create less waste and to create less
consumption and to spend less money. I'm curious too, because
(14:56):
we're getting into spring right now and a lot of
people are probably starting to think about spring cleaning. I
know we are at our house. We're starting to thinking
about decluttering a little bit more. And one of the
things that you mentioned on your blog is that we
can often get a tax break for donating these items
to goodwill. But it's something that most people don't do properly,
and the deductions can actually be significant. They can add
up over time depending on what you're giving away. Right,
(15:18):
can you talk about that.
Speaker 3 (15:19):
Yes, when I donate to Goodwill and they give you
the little receipt, I actually in that moment, like I
drive around the corner and park the car, I write
two pairs men's pants, you know, one youth winter coat.
Because when the time comes to do your taxes, whether
you're doing like a turbo tax or maybe one of
(15:41):
the like free versions, which I recommend, that you can
put all of that in. You can't just say I
donated thirty five dollars of stuff. You can get so
much more. They'll give you like a ten dollars credit
for a single pair of men's pants. That's not a
I don't specifically know right now, but it can be significant.
(16:04):
My husband and I do our taxes ourselves, and we
do them together, and he always hands the computer over
and he's like, all right, put in the Goodwill stuff,
and it'll make a difference of like hundreds of dollars
of how much we're getting back.
Speaker 1 (16:17):
I will say, I'm worried that Dale's going to wake
up tomorrow with no pants, because you're going to go
donate them all just for the tax right.
Speaker 2 (16:22):
Off, just to get we told you sorry, Dale. Okay,
So practically speaking, So do you immediately enter those into
whatever software app you're using, or do you just kind
of keep a note on your phone.
Speaker 3 (16:35):
They hand you a paper slip and then it has
lines for what you donated, and I write it on
those lines.
Speaker 2 (16:41):
It's very and then you just keep you just hang
on to the paper until the until come tax season.
I love it. I think that's really important, yeah, cause
otherwise if you don't, if you don't do it like
right then and there, I think there's a good chance
you'll either forget yeah, or you might even just say
forget about it. You know, you may not even take
the time. Yeah, yeah, So yeah, getting that tax break,
(17:01):
that is certainly one thing you can do with some
of the additional items that you have on hand. But
you can also take some of those things and sell them.
We actually are going to talk a good bit about
how you can make some additional income with some of
your excess goods. We'll get to that, plus plenty more
right after this. All right, we are back from the break.
Speaker 1 (17:29):
We're still talking about using things up, wearing them out,
making it do, doing without, and just kind of like
buying less and being smarter with our consumption habits. We're
talking with Katie walk Stanley here on the show today,
and Katie, you wrote an article about how to practice
extreme frugality. So I am curious, Matt and I we
give the distinction between things being frugal and cheap. On
(17:51):
the show, we have a recurring segment sometimes world debate
the merits of a decision and say was that frugal
or cheap? But you kind of say there's a third way.
I don't know. I'm curious to hear your yeah, your
belief and how you think about being frugal or being cheap.
Speaker 3 (18:04):
I feel like the cheap versus frugal debate is like
a false dichotomy. It's not a either one or the
other blacker white issue. I feel like, do you like
a good ven diagram? I do. I feel like you've
got cheap in one circle, you've got frugal the other,
and then they meet in the center and you've got
non consumerism there.
Speaker 2 (18:26):
Okay, so right in the middle, Like that's that's where
that's where we like to live, Katie.
Speaker 3 (18:31):
I am a how to money listener and I have
I have heard you guys talk about something being cheaper
for Google, and I'm I want in on the conversation,
I'm like, no, there's a third choice. But I feel
that like trying to think of what like a good
example would be like buying a low quality item versus
buying a very expensive but higher quality item. You're like, oh,
(18:54):
what do I do? Do I spend one thousand on this?
Or do I spend four hundred on that? And I
feel like there's that's third choice, which is by the expensive,
higher quality item but find it used. Yeah, Or like
I am here in Portland, Oregon, we have like amazing
restaurants and a lot of really inexpensive options too, food carts,
(19:16):
and we have an amazing like Mexican food cart just
a couple of blocks away from the house, and I'll
go there and it is cheap. But what I do
is I will choose like the cheap option, but then
I end up tipping really well, okay, And like for
that same amount of money, I could have gone to
like a very dull middle road restaurant, but instead I
(19:37):
get to go and get something amazing that I make
sure that I'm tipping well. Even though in Oregon nobody
is allowed to get less than minimum wage, so even
your waiters are getting the minimum wage.
Speaker 2 (19:47):
Oh, that's cool. They're definitely getting taken care of it.
I think so much of it does come down to
the heart of why you do something right, and so
if you are because I think so much of cheap
being cheap is it's like an attitude, and I think,
think what one person's cheap can be somebody else's frugal.
And it kind of depends on how you approach it.
But do you have any any other examples of of
(20:08):
some ways that maybe folks have either made fun of
you or that in your own opinion that would.
Speaker 3 (20:13):
Be considered.
Speaker 2 (20:16):
Something I don't, but just like I guess more extreme
examples of frugality. Obviously you're you're looking at things on
the side of the road. I love that, But yeah,
I'm curious if you have any other examples.
Speaker 3 (20:27):
I I love a good roadside find.
Speaker 1 (20:31):
We're not talking roadkill for dinner or anything like that.
Speaker 3 (20:33):
Right, Probably? Not?
Speaker 2 (20:34):
Okay?
Speaker 3 (20:35):
Not? No, I can make that five dollars costco chicken
stretch for many meals. I don't need to be going
for possum.
Speaker 2 (20:42):
No.
Speaker 3 (20:43):
I semi recently found a Filson brand like knit wool
knit cap like in the streets soggy, embedded with like
oil and leaves and stuff. It was not recently dropped,
so I brought it home, I washed it, I sweater
shaved it, put it up on eBay, and I sold
it for forty bucks.
Speaker 2 (21:02):
Nice.
Speaker 3 (21:03):
So I mean, but back to cheap, I actually want
to defend cheap. I know the word cheap and the
idea of cheap gets a very bad rap. But what
can happen a lot of times is that people do
not want to be perceived as cheap with family, with friends,
and what they'll do is they will spend beyond their
(21:25):
means in order to not be viewed as being cheap.
And in that way, I think demonizing the word can
do disservice to people.
Speaker 1 (21:36):
I think that's a good point. I think people feel uncomfortable,
they don't want to be classified in that way, and
so you're right, they probably end up spending in ways
they get them in trouble when they should probably be
just a little more comfortable wear wearing that monikor and
not feeling self conscious about.
Speaker 3 (21:50):
It, Admitting you're on a limited budget, finding ways to
do what you want and do so enjoyably on like
no money or next to no money is a creative
challenge and I find that enjoyable and I try and
help other people find that enjoyable, and there is no
shame in that. And people you know, embarrassed by the
(22:13):
car they drive, even if they have a perfectly functional car,
and getting something they can afford because they don't want
to look cheap.
Speaker 2 (22:20):
Yep.
Speaker 1 (22:21):
I know you're spot on, and I think we should
be less than I don't know. It just makes me
think about I've driven kind of quote unquote beaters for
kind of most of my whole life, even into adulthood.
Our only cars a two thousand and six hond Odyssey
and it's powder blue. It's not terribly attractive, and I know,
you know, some people might look and they might judge
or something, but I guess part of it is just
(22:43):
kind of a comfort level in your own skin and
with the choices that you're making and saying like, that's
just not something we prioritize, even though a lot of
other people do. But I think for some people, you're right,
it's not that they prioritize it, but it's just that
they feel compelled to follow the crowd and to do
kind of what other people are doing. Even if it
puts them in like a precarious financial position. Yeah, yeah,
Kai so Joel said being comfortable in your own skin.
(23:03):
So essentially it kind of comes down, I think, to
the individual, like do you have any advice or any
tips to help people to be comfortable with the decisions
that they're making, sometimes out of necessity or sometimes they're
making these decisions out of just a desire to be frugal,
a desire to save for other financial goals that they
might have. But I don't know, have you ever talked
with folks who find themselves in a situation where they
(23:26):
really feel uncomfortable being in that position? Do you have
any advice for them?
Speaker 3 (23:31):
That's a hard one because it is so individual. I mean,
it kind of boils down to contemptedness, like can you
be You know, if you are a content person with
who you are and the belongings that you have and
the person your sense of self that you present out
into the world, Madison Avenue can't touch you. You Being
(23:55):
solid with yourself means that you are not as open
to thinking that this purchase is going to make your
life better. And granted, there are purchases that can make
your life better. But it shouldn't be motivated by feeling
bad about yourself. And that's a hard one, and I
(24:16):
don't know if that really does answer your question. I
used to work until a few years ago as a
labor and delivery nurse. I worked for twenty four years
at a high risk unit, and so I had many, many,
many co workers, all of them women. All the nurses
were women there, and we had countless in depth conversations.
(24:36):
You really get to know one another. And so many
women that I that I worked with, they were working
full time, they had little kids, they were often or
usually married to someone who had a good income. And
there's still living paycheck to paycheck. And it was Disneyland
(24:56):
every year, it was new cars, it was it was
keeping up with the Joneses. And I wasn't there to judge,
and I wasn't there telling people what they're doing wrong.
Nobody likes that person, Nobody wants unsolicited advice in this world.
But I certainly saw that. I saw people comforting their
(25:19):
unhappiness or their stress with purchases. And it's hard to see.
And it doesn't mean you're like a bad person if
you do that. By any means, We've all been there
where you need to cheer yourself up.
Speaker 1 (25:33):
Yeah, but there's room for evolution.
Speaker 3 (25:35):
Sometimes it can have really big picture consequences that you're
not like figuring out what your big picture goals are.
Speaker 1 (25:42):
Yeah, for sure.
Speaker 2 (25:43):
All right.
Speaker 1 (25:43):
I want to talk about selling things because we talked
about donating things just before the break. But you say
that a lot of folks who like they throw things
out that they could turn into cash, and so like,
I don't know, And it feels like you're hunting for
use things all the time at the thirst store on
the side of the road, and then you're turning around
and you're selling those items that one man's trash is
another man's treasure. That's saying I feel like you kind
(26:05):
of personify that. So talk to me about how you're
finding stuff, how you're thinking about kind of resale when
it comes to things that you're getting rid of or
things that you're finding to just turn a profit on.
Speaker 3 (26:16):
Yes, I do thrifting. I'm not doing it all the time,
just four.
Speaker 1 (26:20):
Days a week, that's all I swear. I follow you
on Instagram, I see you at your goodwill all the time,
and then you're buying stuff and you're selling it on
eBay and you're making a lot of money.
Speaker 3 (26:28):
True, I am doing that. Just last week, I got
a couple of barstools and they just kind of stood
out as quality items when I saw them, and I
gave them, you know, a little shake tests to make
sure they're a sturdy. I bought them for nine to
ninety nine each and I sold the pair for one
seventy five and I did that nice Facebook marketplace. There's
not a single answer to that. One thing that I've
(26:51):
enjoyed doing is there are a couple of like wealthy
neighborhoods here in Portland and they have like a garage
sale day. And what I'll do is I'll drive my
tea two thousand and five Honda minivan.
Speaker 1 (27:04):
Make me feel bad you're competitive, No.
Speaker 3 (27:07):
At the end of the day, where everybody just like
puts their stuff like at the curb with like a
free sign. And I have found boxes of books that
I can take two Powels which is a bookstore here
in Portland, and they'll give you money for them. I've
found like Yakama rack systems that I'll take to a
(27:28):
store in town that buys used bike racks. I mean,
there's just many ways to do that. It's interesting though,
because you don't want to be a hoarder, and I'm
certainly not. I don't know if you can hear the
echo in this room, I'm not. I'm not that by
any means. But I am very deliberate with the things
that I do bring home. I'll check the eBay app
(27:52):
to see completed listings to see if something is selling well. Ideally,
if I am selling stuff, I want to make it
at least thirty usually fifty bucks on it. Okay, I'm
not trying to make ten dollars here and there. That's
just kind of like finicky work. Although you know I
love ten dollars. I've never turned that down. But for
(28:13):
my efforts and for the stuff that I am bringing
into my home, I try to do that.
Speaker 1 (28:18):
So it sounds like what you're saying is you value
your time and at some point you're not going to
go through like so, how do you think about that
too when it comes to like your hourly rate, or
how you think about how much time and effort you
put into flipping something in order to turn a profit.
Speaker 3 (28:32):
I will clean something up, but I don't want to
be repairing the stuff that I am selling, gotcha, that's
a slippery slope to like setting it aside and then
you just kind of never do it. I try to
make fifty bucks if I'm selling something, and then that
way it's just kind of worth my time, even though
I am retired.
Speaker 2 (28:51):
I guess, regardless if you're retired or not, for you,
you've got a standard, you've got a bar that you're not,
you know, willing to go below. But I think that's
the biggest problem is that folks are saying that they
don't have the time. I think there's a lot of
folks who might be hearing you talk and they're saying
this is I can totally get behind this. I don't
have the time to do all of this. What advice
(29:12):
do you have for those folks who like the mission,
they like the idea of reusing things, but they're saying
they don't have the time. What are your thoughts there?
Speaker 3 (29:21):
Oh? I feel for those people because I have been there,
as you know, mom of little kids, working full time
nights as a nurse. You know, time was not something
that I enjoyed a plethora of. I guess it's about
being strategic with what is important, buying less stuff is
(29:42):
a way that you can save money. It's very easy
when you have kids. You just love them to pieces
and you want to get them absolutely everything. But I mean,
studies have shown that having less stuff actually helps your
kids focus more, helps them kind of appreciate the things
(30:03):
that they do have, and to do more kind of
focused play than a room that is like filled with
like everything that toys, r Us throughout or whoever Amazon,
I guess at.
Speaker 1 (30:14):
This point, Well, and we all have seen our kids
end up playing with the boxes or the pots and
pins or stuff like that too. That happens, and you're
just like, what happened to the one hundred dollars Barbie
dream House that we got you? Why didn't you play
with that like that? That that's kind of the common
refrain to hear from parents too.
Speaker 3 (30:27):
Yeah, I mean, it's it's being a parent is just
the hardest thing, especially now in the digital age where
you know that that Barbie dream House is competing with
a screen. You know, I was luckier that my kids
are older. I didn't really have that issue. But I mean,
when you don't have the time, you just choose what
(30:49):
is important to you, and if that is saving money
or if that is just having like a simpler life
or having like less clutter in your home, just you know,
maybe find like minded people. My Facebook group for the
Non Consumer Advocate has more than eighty thousand people in it,
(31:10):
and if you need inspiration or if you need a
question answered, it is a really good place to come.
Speaker 1 (31:16):
Yeah. Do you feel like there's overlap between the minimalism
movement and the non consumer movement? Are those similar or
are those like? Yeah, just I guess I'm curious how much,
like if we're talking Vin diagrams, like we're discussing earlier,
how much overlap is there between those two?
Speaker 3 (31:34):
There is absolutely overlap. Having too much stuff, I mean,
everything you have in your home, unless you know you're
garbage picking, is stuff that you paid for. It is
money that you spent. And a lot of times people
hold on to that stuff because there's that sunk cost
where they're like, well, I paid good money for that.
Yes I don't like it, but you know, I'm going
(31:56):
to hold on to it because you don't want to
admit that, you know, the mistake that you made. But
having less stuff, having a less cluttered home is something
that a lot of people want. It's easier to have
friends over, to have house guests. Having a cluttered home
or feeling like you do not have like a home
that you can welcome people into is a very isolating
thing for a lot of people. With the Internet and
(32:19):
social media, we see a curated vision of how other
people are living, and it makes people feel bad about
their own messy lives.
Speaker 2 (32:29):
Yeah, And essentially what you're getting at is like the
sunk cost fallacy, the desire for folks to not want
to admit that they're wrong. Essentially, and when presented with
new data, with new facts, sometimes we have to be like, oh,
I'm going to change my mind. Oh I don't actually
need this thing in my life, and if that means
I have to take a loss in order to get
rid of it. Sometimes we have to let go over egos,
(32:49):
which I think maybe that might be what you're speaking
to a little bit here.
Speaker 3 (32:53):
It is emotionally painful to let go of it, it is,
but the more you do it, the more you acclimate
yourself to like, yeah, I felt bad about getting rid
of those boots that you know, we're always so uncomfortable.
You can get rid of them and you do survive
that process.
Speaker 1 (33:11):
Yeah, that's true, all right, So I want to ask
you too something super practical.
Speaker 2 (33:14):
Matt and I.
Speaker 1 (33:15):
We just did a whole episode about butchering your grocery
bill and you I've like followed your grocery buying routine.
You call it disjointed, but because you drive through a
bunch of different places to get the best price on
each item. So I am curious to know. I'm sure
it's a little different than what my grocery routine looks like. Well,
(33:36):
what's the Katie Wolk Stanley approach to buying food without
spending too much money?
Speaker 3 (33:40):
I do buy different grocery items from different places. And
that sounds like just if you just look at that
for face value, then it would be a lot of
time and a pain in the tuhus. But in fact,
it really isn't because I work it into like the
routine of like what is already happening. I'm not spending
like twelve hours a day going to different grocery stores,
(34:03):
but like, we go through a lot of bananas here
and Trader Joe's it must be a lost leader. They
saw him for nineteen cents apiece, which means you can
choose the big ones. Yeah, do that on my way
to the store. That's a grocery liquidator here in Portland, Oregon,
and I call it a dented vegetable store. But they
(34:25):
always have like those great big packs of like organic
mixed screens that are like six seven dollars. At least
in the store they have them for two bucks nice
sometimes one dollar they'll have so I'll go there. I
can't get all of my stuff there, but I have
walked in and ended up walking out with like a
flat of strawberries for two dollars. But it's one of
(34:46):
those things like you better be ready to make jam
that day. They're going to get me two days out
of these without.
Speaker 1 (34:53):
You know, which just means you have to be ready
to be resourceful with the things that you're buying. And
I think that's great, and I think that is is
because of our like on demand society, constantly connected to technology,
it's it's harder to be a resourceful person. We have
to kind of like build that up in ourselves because
it just doesn't come naturally. So I love kind of
(35:15):
you're pushing us in that kind of into into that realm.
But we've got a couple more questions we're going to
get to with you, Katie. I specifically want to talk
about the do without part of your Moniker and like
how you know when you should just do without, because
that is something that we're not great at in our society.
So we'll get some questions on that and more right
after this.
Speaker 2 (35:43):
Right we are still talking with Katie will Stanley just
about some of the different ways we can all implement
some frugalness into our lives. And Katie, you know you
touched on this in the last section. We were kind
of talking about finding that balance between time and money essentially,
and for folks recommended what you said is that for
folks maybe who have less time, one of the things
(36:04):
that we can do is to just generally speak and
we can buy less, right, because that's something essentially that
we can all remove stuff.
Speaker 3 (36:12):
You don't have to make as much money.
Speaker 2 (36:14):
Yeah, and nor does it take any time to not
buy something. When you go out to flip something, you know,
on eBay or like all that takes some time. It
takes being resourceful, but actually not buying something that it's
a it's the absence, it's the absence of time.
Speaker 3 (36:30):
A good example for that is I don't know if
you know who Amy decision is. She wrote the Titwad Gazette.
Speaker 1 (36:38):
That's like an old school thing.
Speaker 3 (36:41):
In the archives here.
Speaker 2 (36:42):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (36:43):
And she wrote in one of her books that she
did a lot of interviews and a lot of she
was filmed for, you know, a lot of TV segments,
and they always wanted to see her actively doing something
that would save her money. And she said the thing
that she wanted to do was to the kids up
in the car and drive past like McDonald's and just
(37:06):
show that she wasn't going there. Yeah, but that doesn't
make like a gripping visual image like here I am.
Speaker 2 (37:15):
It's so true though, Yeah, I mean that's like, that's
what you're talking about. That Like essentially that's the do
without part of your motto. And I mean just generally
speaking as a society, like self self deprivation. It's not
something that we're that we're great at, but it is
obviously when you were you.
Speaker 3 (37:30):
Know, that's not an easy message to sell.
Speaker 2 (37:32):
No, right, it's not sexy. You can't market it. Like
what advertiser is going to get behind you if you're
going to say to what you should really be doing
is just generally speaking, by less stuff. But what I
would love to hear from you, though, what are some
purchases that folks maybe make occasionally or routinely either way,
but that they're making that you think folks maybe should
consider forgoing all together.
Speaker 3 (37:54):
That that's not an easy answer. That's a hard one
because it's so individualized. Like, for you two, spending money
on craft beer is absolutely worth it to you. That
brings you pleasure, there's satisfaction in that. To me, I
don't really like to drink, and so to me that
would be an absolute waste of money. I'd sooner throw
(38:16):
it like down the sink as I would to drink it.
Speaker 2 (38:20):
I know, blasphemy here, Yes, yes, you donate it. This
is the last time.
Speaker 3 (38:27):
This work. You know, that's a hard one. For some family,
like doing international travel is a priority for them to
expose themselves and their children to different cultures in the world,
and for them, they're going to make sacrifices in their
everyday life that make that possible. And for somebody else,
(38:48):
perhaps who's more of a homebody, like doing the things
that give them comfort in the home means they do
not have that money to internationally travel. But they you know,
that's not what they want anyway. I really think that
people think that living below your means it equates to deprivation,
and that's absolutely not true. I mean it's hard to
(39:10):
you know, look at the numbers. It's an unpaid it's
like a painful thing to do. All right, this is
the money we have coming in. This is the money
that we have going out. What is you know, how
much do we have? It's looking at that, looking at
the hard numbers and that look in the mirror to
see like what money do you have and what is
it that you value? Is it savings? Is it college
(39:33):
funds for your kids? Is it travel? Is it helping
family members who maybe need that help you know they're
at a stage of life.
Speaker 2 (39:41):
Yeah, well no, I think that's that's so true, and
I appreciate that that approach. I mean, what I'm hearing
is that you're not a hater, which I mean, that's
that's where we tend to fall. Because if it's something
that's important to you, I think you can almost justify
any expense out there if your heart is in the
right place, if it's something that you value and if
you and if you yeah, exactly if you've planned for.
Speaker 1 (40:03):
It, the problem is mostly get on credit, haven't played
for it, and so we're just spending like everyone else
around us, and we haven't done the deep work just
to really think about what does move the needle in
our lives, so that we can really spend intentionally there
and then start to curb spending in other areas that
maybe just weren't providing much bang for the buck, like
even something as simple as going to get a haircut
(40:25):
like every six or eight weeks or something like that.
Think about how that kind of money adds up. I'm guessing, Katie,
you don't pay someone else to cut your hair, right.
Speaker 3 (40:34):
Well, I used to, and I think I've heard that
you do this also Jole the Supercuts training center. Yes,
I use That's how I would get my haircut, and
I would like badger the kids to get their haircut
that way as well.
Speaker 2 (40:49):
Free haircut.
Speaker 3 (40:51):
And again you get the free haircut and then you
tip yep, and so yes, you're spending five dollars, but
they're not used to get a tip at all, and
so they're always really happy to get that.
Speaker 2 (41:02):
Do you tip them before they start cutting your hair?
That way, they try a little extra, a little harder.
Speaker 3 (41:07):
That is a good tip. But no. But the thing
is that that my one it seems to have gone dormant.
I can't figure it out. But I did get a
coupon for like Great Clips for ten ninety nine, so
I went in and I did that, and again, I
you know, I tipped well, I tipped not based on
a ten ninety nine haircut. Yeah, and I also very
infrequently get my haircut. I let it get long and
(41:28):
straggly and they chuck it off. Again.
Speaker 2 (41:30):
That's that's my current approach. Yes, So I've got my
own hair since I was in middle school, Katie, and
since the pandemic started. I was one of those that
was like, all right, I'm going to do the long
hair thing and we'll see how much longer it lasts.
Now it's getting a little unruly.
Speaker 1 (41:43):
Getting close to his touch, It's true, said on it.
Speaker 2 (41:49):
I almost can's that's getting getting problematic, Katie. You mentioned
your kids right, like you were trying to get them
to also attend the Great Clips. But I know that
you're essentially you're an empty nester.
Speaker 3 (41:59):
Now essentially they stopped by to look in the fridge,
very fruit hang out.
Speaker 2 (42:03):
Yeah, But I mean, you know, and you've got your husband.
When y'all like, did it ever cause problems? I guess
like your your frugal tendencies, did it ever cause any
family strife as you're trying to take the thermostat down
make it a little bit colder, or if you are
just all the different ways that you're trying to save money,
I'm curious.
Speaker 1 (42:23):
When you sell everyone's pants, like is that ruining family
relationships or anything?
Speaker 2 (42:27):
Yeah, how did you avoid that conflict?
Speaker 3 (42:30):
I wouldn't say that has ever caused strife, as that
is you know, a strong word to use. I would
say more that you know, no teenager ever wants to
be told no. And so whether or not you are
somebody who does traditional shopping where you're going to take
the kids to the mall, you're going to go to
Target whatever, I mean all kids here? No. And my
(42:53):
kids were used to me. They know me, and I
was always saying like, you know, hey, we can go
to a goodwill first and see if they have what
you want. And you know, maybe they were grumpy times,
but they knew that they would get a yes at goodwill.
And it doesn't take too many times of thinking like
(43:13):
oh no, I'm not getting what I want, and then
you end up finding something that's so expensive if you
had bought it new, and yet somehow you got it
for five dollars. You know, it turns things around.
Speaker 1 (43:26):
So do you feel like your kids have kind of
followed suit? Do they live a similar lifestyle to the
way you kind of raise them?
Speaker 2 (43:31):
Have they come around? Yes?
Speaker 3 (43:33):
No, I am not here to force my ways on
other people, even my own children, and I don't believe
anything good comes from forcing your point of view on
other people. They both will go to Goodwill for stuff
or you know, they'll ask me if I can check
on the buy nothing group to see if somebody has
(43:53):
a such and such, but they mostly just kind of
don't buy a lot of stuff. Okay, one does have
a credit card in order to build her credit rating,
but neither of them have any credit debt. We were
able to pay for them to go to college just
out of pocket through our extreme frugality, so we've set
(44:15):
them up for a really good adult life. They're not
starting with one hundred thousand dollars of debt, which I
just feel so bad for people who do not have
a choice about that. And they know that they're lucky
because their friends are not in that same situation. They're
able to take jobs that maybe can build to like
(44:36):
better jobs and in terms of career wise because they
can live on seventeen dollars an hour.
Speaker 1 (44:42):
Well, I love it. I mean I love your mission, Katie.
I love You've been out in a long time now,
through the Facebook group, your Instagram, through your blog, just
really teaching people about how to just think about purchases
and really life differently than kind of our modern conception
of it, which I really appreciate. It really fits with
the vibe of what Matt and I are trying to
(45:03):
do over here out of money. So how can our
listeners find out more about you and what you're up to.
Speaker 3 (45:08):
Well, I blog at the Non Consumer Advocate dot com
for years. I blog seven days a week. I have
bubt that back a bit and I put up a
fresh blog post every Monday and then sometimes the second
one during the week. I am on Instagram as the
non Consumer Advocate or maybe non consumer you think I.
Speaker 1 (45:31):
Know, well, link to them in the show notes so
everybody can FI find them quick.
Speaker 3 (45:34):
I have a Facebook group and that is the Non
Consumer Advocate. Thank you so much for having me on
and I hopefully was able to get the message across
that non consumerism isn't about being deprived, it's about saving money.
It's about doing that in a way that looks at
like the environmental impact of our purchases, and hopefully people
(45:59):
will respond to that. And I appreciate you having me on, Katie.
Speaker 1 (46:02):
Always glad to have you, great to chat. Thanks so
much for coming on. We'll talk to you soon.
Speaker 2 (46:05):
All right, Thank you Joel Man. What a great conversation
we had with especially about Okay, so first this isn't
a big takeaway, but I love that Katie wanted to
provide her her two cents on the third option. Right,
it's not just being frugal or being cheap. There's a
way that you can be cheap in most people's books, right, Like,
according to most people, they're going to say that, man,
(46:26):
you're taking you're taking the cheap option here. But to you,
you're being frugal.
Speaker 1 (46:30):
To you, you're being the non consumer. Then really, yeah,
you're just opting out of the game that everyone else
is playing, which I think is kind of Katie's main
message to say, like it's not just frugle or cheap,
it's like you can just check out of kind of
the normal path that most people take through society, which
is just to consume a lot more than they need to.
And she talked about that at the very end, how
that can be for environmental reasons, but it can be
(46:51):
for money saving reasons, and it can She's you know,
she even talked about how she was able to basically
set her kids up for a much better future because
she took.
Speaker 2 (46:59):
A different path too exactly. And I think what she
said is also true that it oftentimes can be because
of the pressures of other people, like you don't want
to be perceived as being cheap, and because of that,
they're just a lot more consumption that's taking place. But well,
was your big take aside from that, Aside from the
rug versus cheap conversation, what was your big takeaway from
our conversation today with Katie?
Speaker 1 (47:20):
You know, so tough to pick one thing, but when
she said that it all boils down to contentedness and
that if you are content with what you have and
with who you are, Madison Avenue can't touch you. And
I think oftentimes we are trying to fill a void
with kind of through consumerism, and we realize or typically
(47:41):
actually don't realize that we're not making much of a dent,
you know, in that void by buying things, and so
we kind of continue to try and it just never works, right.
And so I think that's a big part of kind
of what's going on, is that contentedness isn't terribly easy
to come by, and a lot of people are looking
to purchases to buy their happiness and it just it
(48:04):
doesn't work. And so I think, you know, we could
talk about all the strategies until we're blue in the face,
but if you can't find ways to be happy with
what you have and be happy with less, it's it's
going to be really hard I think for Katie's message
to be applicable to you.
Speaker 2 (48:19):
Very true. Yeah, all right, so since you went with
like a twenty thousand foot level take away, I'll dive
into the granular. I'll maybe some more than nuts and bolts.
And specifically, when she was talking about what she is
willing to essentially flip and sell on eBay or Facebook marketplace,
that first of all, she's looking to make at least
fifty bucks yeap, essentially like she's not going to do
(48:39):
something for just ten dollars for her it's not worth
her time. But one of the other things she pointed
out is that she is not going to take something
on that she has to fix. I like that because
I think that can also be a good rule of
thumb for folks who are out there and they're thinking, ah,
like I'm pretty good at thrifting, like I can spot
a good deal, or maybe hey, i'm pretty good with
a barkeeper's friend and I know how to shine this
(49:01):
thing up. And so I think if this is maybe
a tactic and approach that you're thinking about doing making
some additional money by selling things on eBay or Facebook,
don't look at the different things that need fixing, because
I think that's when you might end up being in
turning into a hoarder, right, because Katy is just like
I'm not a hoarder. She moves things pretty.
Speaker 1 (49:19):
Quickly, so like, get twenty six projects in your garage.
I know it need to be worked out. That's what
you that's probably what you don't want to turn into. Yeah,
And so I thought that was a good little nugget,
so that she's not looking necessarily to fix things, but
she will bring them in, wash them, get them cleaned up,
and then quickly.
Speaker 2 (49:33):
Turn them around for a profit. Yep, but keep that
in mind if you're also looking to make some extra
change on the side.
Speaker 1 (49:38):
I think it was last year that we did to
Sell Your Stuff challenge and a lot of listeners decided
they were going to try to sell fifty two things,
one thing a week and see how much money that
could make them. And so it is one of those
things where you could even look to pick up free
things or buy additional things that you know you can
turn for a profit and add those and try to
sell fifty two things this year in addition to just
(50:00):
kind of the things that you want to declutter or
get rid of from your own home. And then it's
just that last thing keeping those tax receipts. Who knows
how much that's going to save you on taxes when
it comes comes tax time from the stuff you're donating
when you take it to goodwill. But Matt, let's get
back to the beer that we had on this episode.
This was Cloudscape IPA by New Park Brewing or your
thoughts on this one.
Speaker 2 (50:20):
Yeah, First, a big thank you to Matthew. Thank you
for doating this one as well as the other New
Park bruise that we've had here on the show. I
assume this is the single IPA version of we had
a double Was it last week or a couple weeks ago?
But was it double cloud or I think so? Yeah?
So very similar, viye, very similar. Fantastic certainly drink more
like a single I guess not a double but a
(50:40):
single IPA but which just means.
Speaker 1 (50:42):
Like less robust, less intense, but still a little easier
to drink, packing a lot of flavor. Drinks more like
a hoppy, pale ale, but fantastic it. I mean it
had all of the qualities that you're looking for to
New England hazy IPA juicy, so it had a fair
amount of sugar is going on, but not too sweet
where it felt like it was just getting weighed down.
And it had that nice kind of fresh crispness that
(51:04):
you get from this hops. Yeah, really enjoyed it.
Speaker 2 (51:06):
Yeah, do you like it?
Speaker 3 (51:06):
Yeah?
Speaker 1 (51:07):
Yeah, I like you said crisp. It had like a
crispyiness to it, which usually is a word or a
description reserved for like pillars and bloggers and stuff like that,
but this was like kind of had it kind of
like a crisp Bypa, which I thought was a nice
little combo. It was definitely happy, definitely juicy, but had
that crispiness to it at the end, which I thought
kind of nice finish on that on this beer. For sure,
(51:28):
it was fantastic. Yeah, thanks, Matthew, appreciate it. Man and
matt that's going to do it for this episode. We'll
have links up to all of Katie's resources up in
the show notes up on our website at howtomoney dot com.
Speaker 2 (51:39):
All right, buddy, So until next time, best Friends Out,
Best Friends Out.
Welcome to how to Money. I'm Joel and I am Matt,
and today we're discussing how you can use it up,
wear it out, make it do, or do without with
Katie Wolke Stanley.
Speaker 2 (00:29):
That's right, yeah, So everybody has heard of a consumer
advocate before, right, Like that's someone who helps to make
sure that individuals are getting the best deal possible, or
maybe to make sure that the quality of those products
is up to snuff. I'm thinking of consumer reports, the
countless reporting and tests that they perform on basically any
item out there that you can buy. But you likely
(00:49):
haven't heard of a non consumer advocate before, and that
is who we're talking with today, our friend Katie Wolke Stanley.
Katie is the non consumer advocate. Her site is the
Consumer Advocate dot com, and she helps people to learn
to live on less and to do so in a
way that lessens their environmental impact. She is an uber
frugal light who hardly ever buys anything new, and she
(01:12):
uses that superpower to tell others to live on as little
income as possible. So we're gonna be talking about all
these different tactics today that anyone out there can do.
You know, whether you choose to, that's up to you.
But we are excited for our conversation today, Katie, thank
you for joining us on the podcast.
Speaker 3 (01:29):
Thank you so much, Joeling, Matt for having me.
Speaker 1 (01:31):
All Right, Katie, I'm really curious to hear your answer
to the question that we ask everybody when they come
on the show, Because you are you approach buying things
differently than pretty much any guess we've had on before.
So Matt and I we splurge on craft beer and
even while we're saving the investing for the future. Is
there something you splurge on in the here and now?
I don't even know well what.
Speaker 3 (01:53):
I splurge on here and now. It changes like through
the years as I've gone through different points in life.
At the moment, what I love to e splurge on
is my adult kids. Although at twenty four and twenty seven,
they have gone to college, they've graduated, they have flown
the coup, they work full time. I know that money
(02:15):
is tight for them, and so I like to be
able to take them out to eat. I like to
slip them a little money here and there. They don't
ask for money and so they really appreciate it and
it's a treat. My parents, certainly, you know, did a
little bit of that when I was young and just
getting started in my adult life, and I'm happy and
(02:36):
privileged to be able to do it for them.
Speaker 2 (02:38):
I love it. I guess that never goes away because
there's a certain you know, Jiel having three, me having
four kids, there's obviously a certain amount of that that
we do now while still trying to find that balance
of making sure that they understand the money. It doesn't
just grow on trees. But maybe after you teach them
those lessons, maybe you feel a little more freedom to
slip them some bills.
Speaker 3 (02:58):
Yeah, then instead of chocolates for Valentine's Day, I gave
me one hundred bucks. There you go.
Speaker 2 (03:03):
I mean, that's come on, that's what That's what we need.
We don't need more sugar in our diets cause off
that inflammation or whatever it is. Of anyway, Katie, your slogan,
or like the moniker that your site is, goes by
is use it up, wear it out, make it do
or do without. And we'll kind of cover each of these,
we'll cover the spectrum of how these kind of play
(03:23):
out in your life. But can you first tell us
why that has become your motto? Where did you come
across that? And why is it you know that that
resonates with you.
Speaker 3 (03:32):
So it is a term that I certainly did not
make up myself. You'll find it used during World War Two.
That was like an effort to get people to kind
of be more thoughtful with how they were consuming goods
that needed to be used for the war effort. But
(03:52):
apparently it goes back farther than that. I've had different
people say it was like, oh, that's an old Yankee term,
or that's a New England term. So I don't I've
never really been able to find out, you know, where
precisely it came up. But whenever I've come across that,
even like long before I was blogging, it just really
resonated with me, and I was like, that is great.
(04:13):
It's so like concise and yet it's it's wide and meaningful.
Speaker 1 (04:19):
Yeah, it feels so kind of like foreign to the
way so many people live life today though, So it
is interesting that we were talking before we started recording
about how about Rabbid fan bases, And I think that
people who follow you they are kind of rabbit in
that way, like because and I think part of it
is because this slogan is so antithetical to kind of
so much of the way our modern society functions.
Speaker 3 (04:42):
Yes, especially when it's just so easy to you. Don't
you have to go on your computer to buy stuff.
You know, you've got that Amazon app and you just like,
you know, swiped to buy. It's so easy and frankly
so cheap. But I mean, yeah, this thing is how
is this saying seven dollars and it includes shipping when
(05:03):
you know the shipping costs more than that if we
were to ship it ourselves. People want a different perspective,
and I think that is why people, as you said,
a rabbit, I would just say more loyal yeah to.
Speaker 1 (05:17):
Me at crazy, I don't know, I see them foaming
at the mouth all the time.
Speaker 2 (05:21):
Following.
Speaker 1 (05:23):
I am curious though, because yeah, you say, use it up,
wear it out, and make it do or do without.
And so what makes your your list of things that
you will purchase brand new?
Speaker 2 (05:33):
Are there? Is there anything? Or like?
Speaker 3 (05:36):
Absolutely they are absolutely things that I do buy new
and I start and by the way, I started the
buy nothing new practice myself even before I started blogging,
So that was I think, like in two thousand and six,
two thousand and seven. I am not out there like
looking for a used toothbrush, so I would categorize that
(06:00):
or like a personal care item. Okay, something that is
like touching my body in that way. I don't mean
like clothes, but floss, tooth fresh undergarments. I think, you know,
although I have bought used socks before because you can
just wash them and sometimes they look amazing.
Speaker 2 (06:20):
Well, and your feet are so peripheral, I mean, you know,
like they're basically the closer you get to the core
of your body. Eye too. Would also want to like
the further it gets away from my face or my mouth.
I think I would be more comfortable with, uh, with
going a little more used.
Speaker 3 (06:34):
We bought a brand new mattress at this point, like
two years ago. And although I have gotten a used
mattress before, and I got it from somebody that I knew,
that was just not something I wanted to use. There's
just two much. Once you start thinking of bed bugs,
you can't stop thinking about it.
Speaker 2 (06:51):
Right, Well, that might be one area where I've got
you beat, Katie, because we my wife and I slept
actually no, shoot, we still have this mattress. Our daughter
is now sleeping on it. But we got to use
mattress for free from a neighbor.
Speaker 3 (07:04):
But we knew them.
Speaker 2 (07:05):
They're neighbors of a friend of ours, so they knew them,
and so implicitly, I guess we trusted them. But I'm
telling you it's a good mattress. Yeah, and it's anything
we regretted. I sometimes getting stuff off the side of
the road can be a little daunting. I had a
friend who brought home a chair that looked nice, but
then it had bedbugs, and that caused a whole mess.
So you want to avoid that, just burn the whole
apartment down. I guess right, that's the case.
Speaker 3 (07:28):
I do a lot of curbside shopping and a tremendous
amount of thrifting for things that I want and need,
And if it's even slightly something that could have bedbugs,
I examine it in the store, and then I also
leave it on my porch so I can give it
a better examination. I've never had get the headline something
(07:50):
that I would call a cautionary tale from that though.
Speaker 2 (07:53):
Got it okay. Well, so we're kind of talking about
I don't know, just buying stuff new Katie, Like, do
you have any thoughts on buying things that are more
well made, like things that are higher quality that come
with maybe better warranties. Is that important to you, you know,
when when you're at least occasionally buying something that that
hasn't previously been used.
Speaker 3 (08:11):
Yes, although mostly I really don't buy that much stuff.
And I understand what you're getting at. To you, buying
like a higher quality item from a responsible company exactly,
warranty that will stand behind their product is always like
the ideal. My goal is to then just get it
(08:32):
used when the person who initially bought it gets bored
with it.
Speaker 2 (08:36):
I like that well.
Speaker 1 (08:37):
And one of the things that you've you've written about,
you've talked about too, is that you prioritize lower tech
solutions because those things need to be replaced less frequently.
And I think, like you've mentioned tea kettles, and it's
funny because we went to like an electric tea kettle,
but we've had like they didn't last very long, and
so I'm like, do I need to go back to
just this basic like just kettle on the on the
(08:58):
stove things. That's I mean, that's kind of your approach right, Yes,
I do.
Speaker 3 (09:02):
Have a kettle on the stove, and it is such
an although it's not that old, it is probably I know,
fifteen years old at this point. It's exactly the one
that you can see on the show mad Men, so
it's classically a rever one. But yeah, I don't want
things that I'm going to have to replace. I did
(09:23):
just buy a new refrigerator this fall, now that I
think of it, and I did get one that had
like zero bells and whistles. The less that's going on
with the stuff that you own, the less that can
go wrong with it.
Speaker 2 (09:35):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (09:35):
Yeah, you don't want your fridge connected to the internet
with like a tablet on it and all this other
kind of stuff. You're right, I mean I think that
that is like there's more stuff to replace, and it's
the same kind of with modern cars often these days too.
Speaker 3 (09:47):
And if it's simpler, it's something that you could conceivably
repair yourself with a good YouTube video.
Speaker 2 (09:52):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (09:52):
Yep, Okay, so I think you're right on that, And
I guess like a lot of people opt to replace
items that.
Speaker 2 (10:00):
I could easily be fixed.
Speaker 1 (10:01):
But you have described yourself as a serial repairer, and
I remember when we've worked together, Katie back in the day,
and I learned about this thing called sue grew from you,
which is like multiple clay and glue which helps repair
all sorts of things. I think you actually sent me
some in the mail, and I love I love that
like that you yeah, And I love that you're just
(10:24):
kind of all about like fixing stuff whenever you can, so, like,
do you have any best DIY tips for fixing things
that break from time to time in your life?
Speaker 3 (10:33):
I've just said it, but YouTube, there is very rarely
something that you're trying to figure out how to do
that you can't find on YouTube that somebody else has
done themselves and put together a video about it. You
don't need to invent the wheel. My husband and I
we both just you know, if something is wrong, we
want to know how can we fix this? How can
(10:56):
and in that way we're able to avoid making new purchases.
An example is I was at my son's rental house.
I noticed that they had a busted up dining room
chair in the corner of the room, and I asked
his roommate, Hey, do you want me to fix this?
And he was like, what I'm like, that looks prepaarable.
(11:17):
Would you want me to fix this? And he was like, uh, okay,
I guess lady. Just you know his roommate's mom. So
brought it home and it just was a matter of
gluing and clamping in a couple of different stages, and
my son took it back last night. And it is
not a beautiful chair to be handed down to your ancestors,
(11:41):
but you know what, it's now a functional piece and
it literally saves it from the landfill and makes it
so that they can have like a you know, proper
number of people at the dining room table if that
ever worked, which.
Speaker 2 (11:54):
Is honestly, that's that's the most important thing, right, the
ability for folks to gather around that table. I mean
with furniture in particular, when you have older furniture that
isn't just particle board, it's made from real wood. You
can glue it right, like wood glue, like joints or
whatever where you've used glue. I've learned from personal experience.
It's all. I mean, I think it's stronger than other
parts of the chair, Like it's not going to break
(12:15):
there again if you have a good bond. But how
do you know like when something is beyond repairing, because
it's difficult to know, just like is this something that
I can tackle myself for, Like, how do you know
when it truly is time to just toss it out
and replace it completely?
Speaker 3 (12:30):
Well, there isn't necessarily like a single single answer to that.
But I'm going to go back to the example of
the refrigerator that my husband and I just got from Costco.
You'll like that, Joel love me. They stayin their products.
So that was yeah. And this fridge that we had
that we've had since nineteen ninety eight, so I remember
(12:51):
my son was an infant. It was not like a
great quality item, and so we've done a lot of
little repairs and my husband finally, after countless repairs through
the years, was like, you know what, I can't figure
this out. I think it's the compressor. So we went out.
We got a bare bones one, which by the way,
got lightly scratched during the delivery process, and Pasto gave
(13:15):
us like one hundred and fifty two hundred bucks back.
Sweet Yeah, and for it, Paul, I wasn't you know,
I'm a Karen. Talk to your manager, lady. They offered it.
Speaker 1 (13:30):
Oh, nice. Okay, Well, that's the kind of company they are,
you know, they do stuff like that, which is.
Speaker 3 (13:34):
They treat their employees well and they pay a living wage.
So that's who I want to when I am buying
new stuff. I look for companies like that to give
my money to.
Speaker 2 (13:43):
Who you buy from is really important. But so, I mean,
it sounds like for y'all with the fridge, it kind
of came down to the maybe the total cost of
the repair perhaps was going to total the item. And
so maybe that's a decent rule of thumb for folks
to kind of keep in mind. If you're going to
be sinking more money into this repair and even still
have the subpar then maybe it's time.
Speaker 1 (14:02):
It's kind of like if you have a car that's
old car that's worth thirty five hundred bucks and you've
got it, it's like transmission and replacement time. You're like, yeah, okay,
it probably doesn't make sense to repair this thing anymore.
It's time to yeah, parcel this from out for parts.
Speaker 3 (14:14):
Yeah, we're driving very old car right now, and you
know we just keep string.
Speaker 1 (14:18):
It well and yeah, and it makes sense, right. I
I think we talked about on the show recently, I
spent two hundred and eighty eight dollars to replace I
want to say it was a solenoid or something like that,
and so I had to get it replaced just to
pass the emissions test or they won't let me drive
in the state of Georgia.
Speaker 2 (14:34):
Three hundred bucks. Yeah, totally.
Speaker 1 (14:35):
I was like, I was like really excited to spend
the money on that because it prevents me from having
a car payment. And and I think you're right, like,
the more we think about what we're using and how
much we're consuming on the front end, it kind of
helps us to create less waste and to create less
consumption and to spend less money. I'm curious too, because
(14:56):
we're getting into spring right now and a lot of
people are probably starting to think about spring cleaning. I
know we are at our house. We're starting to thinking
about decluttering a little bit more. And one of the
things that you mentioned on your blog is that we
can often get a tax break for donating these items
to goodwill. But it's something that most people don't do properly,
and the deductions can actually be significant. They can add
up over time depending on what you're giving away. Right,
(15:18):
can you talk about that.
Speaker 3 (15:19):
Yes, when I donate to Goodwill and they give you
the little receipt, I actually in that moment, like I
drive around the corner and park the car, I write
two pairs men's pants, you know, one youth winter coat.
Because when the time comes to do your taxes, whether
you're doing like a turbo tax or maybe one of
(15:41):
the like free versions, which I recommend, that you can
put all of that in. You can't just say I
donated thirty five dollars of stuff. You can get so
much more. They'll give you like a ten dollars credit
for a single pair of men's pants. That's not a
I don't specifically know right now, but it can be significant.
(16:04):
My husband and I do our taxes ourselves, and we
do them together, and he always hands the computer over
and he's like, all right, put in the Goodwill stuff,
and it'll make a difference of like hundreds of dollars
of how much we're getting back.
Speaker 1 (16:17):
I will say, I'm worried that Dale's going to wake
up tomorrow with no pants, because you're going to go
donate them all just for the tax right.
Speaker 2 (16:22):
Off, just to get we told you sorry, Dale. Okay,
So practically speaking, So do you immediately enter those into
whatever software app you're using, or do you just kind
of keep a note on your phone.
Speaker 3 (16:35):
They hand you a paper slip and then it has
lines for what you donated, and I write it on
those lines.
Speaker 2 (16:41):
It's very and then you just keep you just hang
on to the paper until the until come tax season.
I love it. I think that's really important, yeah, cause
otherwise if you don't, if you don't do it like
right then and there, I think there's a good chance
you'll either forget yeah, or you might even just say
forget about it. You know, you may not even take
the time. Yeah, yeah, So yeah, getting that tax break,
(17:01):
that is certainly one thing you can do with some
of the additional items that you have on hand. But
you can also take some of those things and sell them.
We actually are going to talk a good bit about
how you can make some additional income with some of
your excess goods. We'll get to that, plus plenty more
right after this. All right, we are back from the break.
Speaker 1 (17:29):
We're still talking about using things up, wearing them out,
making it do, doing without, and just kind of like
buying less and being smarter with our consumption habits. We're
talking with Katie walk Stanley here on the show today,
and Katie, you wrote an article about how to practice
extreme frugality. So I am curious, Matt and I we
give the distinction between things being frugal and cheap. On
(17:51):
the show, we have a recurring segment sometimes world debate
the merits of a decision and say was that frugal
or cheap? But you kind of say there's a third way.
I don't know. I'm curious to hear your yeah, your
belief and how you think about being frugal or being cheap.
Speaker 3 (18:04):
I feel like the cheap versus frugal debate is like
a false dichotomy. It's not a either one or the
other blacker white issue. I feel like, do you like
a good ven diagram? I do. I feel like you've
got cheap in one circle, you've got frugal the other,
and then they meet in the center and you've got
non consumerism there.
Speaker 2 (18:26):
Okay, so right in the middle, Like that's that's where
that's where we like to live, Katie.
Speaker 3 (18:31):
I am a how to money listener and I have
I have heard you guys talk about something being cheaper
for Google, and I'm I want in on the conversation,
I'm like, no, there's a third choice. But I feel
that like trying to think of what like a good
example would be like buying a low quality item versus
buying a very expensive but higher quality item. You're like, oh,
(18:54):
what do I do? Do I spend one thousand on this?
Or do I spend four hundred on that? And I
feel like there's that's third choice, which is by the expensive,
higher quality item but find it used. Yeah, Or like
I am here in Portland, Oregon, we have like amazing
restaurants and a lot of really inexpensive options too, food carts,
(19:16):
and we have an amazing like Mexican food cart just
a couple of blocks away from the house, and I'll
go there and it is cheap. But what I do
is I will choose like the cheap option, but then
I end up tipping really well, okay, And like for
that same amount of money, I could have gone to
like a very dull middle road restaurant, but instead I
(19:37):
get to go and get something amazing that I make
sure that I'm tipping well. Even though in Oregon nobody
is allowed to get less than minimum wage, so even
your waiters are getting the minimum wage.
Speaker 2 (19:47):
Oh, that's cool. They're definitely getting taken care of it.
I think so much of it does come down to
the heart of why you do something right, and so
if you are because I think so much of cheap
being cheap is it's like an attitude, and I think,
think what one person's cheap can be somebody else's frugal.
And it kind of depends on how you approach it.
But do you have any any other examples of of
(20:08):
some ways that maybe folks have either made fun of
you or that in your own opinion that would.
Speaker 3 (20:13):
Be considered.
Speaker 2 (20:16):
Something I don't, but just like I guess more extreme
examples of frugality. Obviously you're you're looking at things on
the side of the road. I love that, But yeah,
I'm curious if you have any other examples.
Speaker 3 (20:27):
I I love a good roadside find.
Speaker 1 (20:31):
We're not talking roadkill for dinner or anything like that.
Speaker 3 (20:33):
Right, Probably? Not?
Speaker 2 (20:34):
Okay?
Speaker 3 (20:35):
Not? No, I can make that five dollars costco chicken
stretch for many meals. I don't need to be going
for possum.
Speaker 2 (20:42):
No.
Speaker 3 (20:43):
I semi recently found a Filson brand like knit wool
knit cap like in the streets soggy, embedded with like
oil and leaves and stuff. It was not recently dropped,
so I brought it home, I washed it, I sweater
shaved it, put it up on eBay, and I sold
it for forty bucks.
Speaker 2 (21:02):
Nice.
Speaker 3 (21:03):
So I mean, but back to cheap, I actually want
to defend cheap. I know the word cheap and the
idea of cheap gets a very bad rap. But what
can happen a lot of times is that people do
not want to be perceived as cheap with family, with friends,
and what they'll do is they will spend beyond their
(21:25):
means in order to not be viewed as being cheap.
And in that way, I think demonizing the word can
do disservice to people.
Speaker 1 (21:36):
I think that's a good point. I think people feel uncomfortable,
they don't want to be classified in that way, and
so you're right, they probably end up spending in ways
they get them in trouble when they should probably be
just a little more comfortable wear wearing that monikor and
not feeling self conscious about.
Speaker 3 (21:50):
It, Admitting you're on a limited budget, finding ways to
do what you want and do so enjoyably on like
no money or next to no money is a creative
challenge and I find that enjoyable and I try and
help other people find that enjoyable, and there is no
shame in that. And people you know, embarrassed by the
(22:13):
car they drive, even if they have a perfectly functional car,
and getting something they can afford because they don't want
to look cheap.
Speaker 2 (22:20):
Yep.
Speaker 1 (22:21):
I know you're spot on, and I think we should
be less than I don't know. It just makes me
think about I've driven kind of quote unquote beaters for
kind of most of my whole life, even into adulthood.
Our only cars a two thousand and six hond Odyssey
and it's powder blue. It's not terribly attractive, and I know,
you know, some people might look and they might judge
or something, but I guess part of it is just
(22:43):
kind of a comfort level in your own skin and
with the choices that you're making and saying like, that's
just not something we prioritize, even though a lot of
other people do. But I think for some people, you're right,
it's not that they prioritize it, but it's just that
they feel compelled to follow the crowd and to do
kind of what other people are doing. Even if it
puts them in like a precarious financial position. Yeah, yeah,
Kai so Joel said being comfortable in your own skin.
(23:03):
So essentially it kind of comes down, I think, to
the individual, like do you have any advice or any
tips to help people to be comfortable with the decisions
that they're making, sometimes out of necessity or sometimes they're
making these decisions out of just a desire to be frugal,
a desire to save for other financial goals that they
might have. But I don't know, have you ever talked
with folks who find themselves in a situation where they
(23:26):
really feel uncomfortable being in that position? Do you have
any advice for them?
Speaker 3 (23:31):
That's a hard one because it is so individual. I mean,
it kind of boils down to contemptedness, like can you
be You know, if you are a content person with
who you are and the belongings that you have and
the person your sense of self that you present out
into the world, Madison Avenue can't touch you. You Being
(23:55):
solid with yourself means that you are not as open
to thinking that this purchase is going to make your
life better. And granted, there are purchases that can make
your life better. But it shouldn't be motivated by feeling
bad about yourself. And that's a hard one, and I
(24:16):
don't know if that really does answer your question. I
used to work until a few years ago as a
labor and delivery nurse. I worked for twenty four years
at a high risk unit, and so I had many, many,
many co workers, all of them women. All the nurses
were women there, and we had countless in depth conversations.
(24:36):
You really get to know one another. And so many
women that I that I worked with, they were working
full time, they had little kids, they were often or
usually married to someone who had a good income. And
there's still living paycheck to paycheck. And it was Disneyland
(24:56):
every year, it was new cars, it was it was
keeping up with the Joneses. And I wasn't there to judge,
and I wasn't there telling people what they're doing wrong.
Nobody likes that person, Nobody wants unsolicited advice in this world.
But I certainly saw that. I saw people comforting their
(25:19):
unhappiness or their stress with purchases. And it's hard to see.
And it doesn't mean you're like a bad person if
you do that. By any means, We've all been there
where you need to cheer yourself up.
Speaker 1 (25:33):
Yeah, but there's room for evolution.
Speaker 3 (25:35):
Sometimes it can have really big picture consequences that you're
not like figuring out what your big picture goals are.
Speaker 1 (25:42):
Yeah, for sure.
Speaker 2 (25:43):
All right.
Speaker 1 (25:43):
I want to talk about selling things because we talked
about donating things just before the break. But you say
that a lot of folks who like they throw things
out that they could turn into cash, and so like,
I don't know, And it feels like you're hunting for
use things all the time at the thirst store on
the side of the road, and then you're turning around
and you're selling those items that one man's trash is
another man's treasure. That's saying I feel like you kind
(26:05):
of personify that. So talk to me about how you're
finding stuff, how you're thinking about kind of resale when
it comes to things that you're getting rid of or
things that you're finding to just turn a profit on.
Speaker 3 (26:16):
Yes, I do thrifting. I'm not doing it all the time,
just four.
Speaker 1 (26:20):
Days a week, that's all I swear. I follow you
on Instagram, I see you at your goodwill all the time,
and then you're buying stuff and you're selling it on
eBay and you're making a lot of money.
Speaker 3 (26:28):
True, I am doing that. Just last week, I got
a couple of barstools and they just kind of stood
out as quality items when I saw them, and I
gave them, you know, a little shake tests to make
sure they're a sturdy. I bought them for nine to
ninety nine each and I sold the pair for one
seventy five and I did that nice Facebook marketplace. There's
not a single answer to that. One thing that I've
(26:51):
enjoyed doing is there are a couple of like wealthy
neighborhoods here in Portland and they have like a garage
sale day. And what I'll do is I'll drive my
tea two thousand and five Honda minivan.
Speaker 1 (27:04):
Make me feel bad you're competitive, No.
Speaker 3 (27:07):
At the end of the day, where everybody just like
puts their stuff like at the curb with like a
free sign. And I have found boxes of books that
I can take two Powels which is a bookstore here
in Portland, and they'll give you money for them. I've
found like Yakama rack systems that I'll take to a
(27:28):
store in town that buys used bike racks. I mean,
there's just many ways to do that. It's interesting though,
because you don't want to be a hoarder, and I'm
certainly not. I don't know if you can hear the
echo in this room, I'm not. I'm not that by
any means. But I am very deliberate with the things
that I do bring home. I'll check the eBay app
(27:52):
to see completed listings to see if something is selling well. Ideally,
if I am selling stuff, I want to make it
at least thirty usually fifty bucks on it. Okay, I'm
not trying to make ten dollars here and there. That's
just kind of like finicky work. Although you know I
love ten dollars. I've never turned that down. But for
(28:13):
my efforts and for the stuff that I am bringing
into my home, I try to do that.
Speaker 1 (28:18):
So it sounds like what you're saying is you value
your time and at some point you're not going to
go through like so, how do you think about that
too when it comes to like your hourly rate, or
how you think about how much time and effort you
put into flipping something in order to turn a profit.
Speaker 3 (28:32):
I will clean something up, but I don't want to
be repairing the stuff that I am selling, gotcha, that's
a slippery slope to like setting it aside and then
you just kind of never do it. I try to
make fifty bucks if I'm selling something, and then that
way it's just kind of worth my time, even though
I am retired.
Speaker 2 (28:51):
I guess, regardless if you're retired or not, for you,
you've got a standard, you've got a bar that you're not,
you know, willing to go below. But I think that's
the biggest problem is that folks are saying that they
don't have the time. I think there's a lot of
folks who might be hearing you talk and they're saying
this is I can totally get behind this. I don't
have the time to do all of this. What advice
(29:12):
do you have for those folks who like the mission,
they like the idea of reusing things, but they're saying
they don't have the time. What are your thoughts there?
Speaker 3 (29:21):
Oh? I feel for those people because I have been there,
as you know, mom of little kids, working full time
nights as a nurse. You know, time was not something
that I enjoyed a plethora of. I guess it's about
being strategic with what is important, buying less stuff is
(29:42):
a way that you can save money. It's very easy
when you have kids. You just love them to pieces
and you want to get them absolutely everything. But I mean,
studies have shown that having less stuff actually helps your
kids focus more, helps them kind of appreciate the things
(30:03):
that they do have, and to do more kind of
focused play than a room that is like filled with
like everything that toys, r Us throughout or whoever Amazon,
I guess at.
Speaker 1 (30:14):
This point, Well, and we all have seen our kids
end up playing with the boxes or the pots and
pins or stuff like that too. That happens, and you're
just like, what happened to the one hundred dollars Barbie
dream House that we got you? Why didn't you play
with that like that? That that's kind of the common
refrain to hear from parents too.
Speaker 3 (30:27):
Yeah, I mean, it's it's being a parent is just
the hardest thing, especially now in the digital age where
you know that that Barbie dream House is competing with
a screen. You know, I was luckier that my kids
are older. I didn't really have that issue. But I mean,
when you don't have the time, you just choose what
(30:49):
is important to you, and if that is saving money
or if that is just having like a simpler life
or having like less clutter in your home, just you know,
maybe find like minded people. My Facebook group for the
Non Consumer Advocate has more than eighty thousand people in it,
(31:10):
and if you need inspiration or if you need a
question answered, it is a really good place to come.
Speaker 1 (31:16):
Yeah. Do you feel like there's overlap between the minimalism
movement and the non consumer movement? Are those similar or
are those like? Yeah, just I guess I'm curious how much,
like if we're talking Vin diagrams, like we're discussing earlier,
how much overlap is there between those two?
Speaker 3 (31:34):
There is absolutely overlap. Having too much stuff, I mean,
everything you have in your home, unless you know you're
garbage picking, is stuff that you paid for. It is
money that you spent. And a lot of times people
hold on to that stuff because there's that sunk cost
where they're like, well, I paid good money for that.
Yes I don't like it, but you know, I'm going
(31:56):
to hold on to it because you don't want to
admit that, you know, the mistake that you made. But
having less stuff, having a less cluttered home is something
that a lot of people want. It's easier to have
friends over, to have house guests. Having a cluttered home
or feeling like you do not have like a home
that you can welcome people into is a very isolating
thing for a lot of people. With the Internet and
(32:19):
social media, we see a curated vision of how other
people are living, and it makes people feel bad about
their own messy lives.
Speaker 2 (32:29):
Yeah, And essentially what you're getting at is like the
sunk cost fallacy, the desire for folks to not want
to admit that they're wrong. Essentially, and when presented with
new data, with new facts, sometimes we have to be like, oh,
I'm going to change my mind. Oh I don't actually
need this thing in my life, and if that means
I have to take a loss in order to get
rid of it. Sometimes we have to let go over egos,
(32:49):
which I think maybe that might be what you're speaking
to a little bit here.
Speaker 3 (32:53):
It is emotionally painful to let go of it, it is,
but the more you do it, the more you acclimate
yourself to like, yeah, I felt bad about getting rid
of those boots that you know, we're always so uncomfortable.
You can get rid of them and you do survive
that process.
Speaker 1 (33:11):
Yeah, that's true, all right, So I want to ask
you too something super practical.
Speaker 2 (33:14):
Matt and I.
Speaker 1 (33:15):
We just did a whole episode about butchering your grocery
bill and you I've like followed your grocery buying routine.
You call it disjointed, but because you drive through a
bunch of different places to get the best price on
each item. So I am curious to know. I'm sure
it's a little different than what my grocery routine looks like. Well,
(33:36):
what's the Katie Wolk Stanley approach to buying food without
spending too much money?
Speaker 3 (33:40):
I do buy different grocery items from different places. And
that sounds like just if you just look at that
for face value, then it would be a lot of
time and a pain in the tuhus. But in fact,
it really isn't because I work it into like the
routine of like what is already happening. I'm not spending
like twelve hours a day going to different grocery stores,
(34:03):
but like, we go through a lot of bananas here
and Trader Joe's it must be a lost leader. They
saw him for nineteen cents apiece, which means you can
choose the big ones. Yeah, do that on my way
to the store. That's a grocery liquidator here in Portland, Oregon,
and I call it a dented vegetable store. But they
(34:25):
always have like those great big packs of like organic
mixed screens that are like six seven dollars. At least
in the store they have them for two bucks nice
sometimes one dollar they'll have so I'll go there. I
can't get all of my stuff there, but I have
walked in and ended up walking out with like a
flat of strawberries for two dollars. But it's one of
(34:46):
those things like you better be ready to make jam
that day. They're going to get me two days out
of these without.
Speaker 1 (34:53):
You know, which just means you have to be ready
to be resourceful with the things that you're buying. And
I think that's great, and I think that is is
because of our like on demand society, constantly connected to technology,
it's it's harder to be a resourceful person. We have
to kind of like build that up in ourselves because
it just doesn't come naturally. So I love kind of
(35:15):
you're pushing us in that kind of into into that realm.
But we've got a couple more questions we're going to
get to with you, Katie. I specifically want to talk
about the do without part of your Moniker and like
how you know when you should just do without, because
that is something that we're not great at in our society.
So we'll get some questions on that and more right
after this.
Speaker 2 (35:43):
Right we are still talking with Katie will Stanley just
about some of the different ways we can all implement
some frugalness into our lives. And Katie, you know you
touched on this in the last section. We were kind
of talking about finding that balance between time and money essentially,
and for folks recommended what you said is that for
folks maybe who have less time, one of the things
(36:04):
that we can do is to just generally speak and
we can buy less, right, because that's something essentially that
we can all remove stuff.
Speaker 3 (36:12):
You don't have to make as much money.
Speaker 2 (36:14):
Yeah, and nor does it take any time to not
buy something. When you go out to flip something, you know,
on eBay or like all that takes some time. It
takes being resourceful, but actually not buying something that it's
a it's the absence, it's the absence of time.
Speaker 3 (36:30):
A good example for that is I don't know if
you know who Amy decision is. She wrote the Titwad Gazette.
Speaker 1 (36:38):
That's like an old school thing.
Speaker 3 (36:41):
In the archives here.
Speaker 2 (36:42):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (36:43):
And she wrote in one of her books that she
did a lot of interviews and a lot of she
was filmed for, you know, a lot of TV segments,
and they always wanted to see her actively doing something
that would save her money. And she said the thing
that she wanted to do was to the kids up
in the car and drive past like McDonald's and just
(37:06):
show that she wasn't going there. Yeah, but that doesn't
make like a gripping visual image like here I am.
Speaker 2 (37:15):
It's so true though, Yeah, I mean that's like, that's
what you're talking about. That Like essentially that's the do
without part of your motto. And I mean just generally
speaking as a society, like self self deprivation. It's not
something that we're that we're great at, but it is
obviously when you were you.
Speaker 3 (37:30):
Know, that's not an easy message to sell.
Speaker 2 (37:32):
No, right, it's not sexy. You can't market it. Like
what advertiser is going to get behind you if you're
going to say to what you should really be doing
is just generally speaking, by less stuff. But what I
would love to hear from you, though, what are some
purchases that folks maybe make occasionally or routinely either way,
but that they're making that you think folks maybe should
consider forgoing all together.
Speaker 3 (37:54):
That that's not an easy answer. That's a hard one
because it's so individualized. Like, for you two, spending money
on craft beer is absolutely worth it to you. That
brings you pleasure, there's satisfaction in that. To me, I
don't really like to drink, and so to me that
would be an absolute waste of money. I'd sooner throw
(38:16):
it like down the sink as I would to drink it.
Speaker 2 (38:20):
I know, blasphemy here, Yes, yes, you donate it. This
is the last time.
Speaker 3 (38:27):
This work. You know, that's a hard one. For some family,
like doing international travel is a priority for them to
expose themselves and their children to different cultures in the world,
and for them, they're going to make sacrifices in their
everyday life that make that possible. And for somebody else,
(38:48):
perhaps who's more of a homebody, like doing the things
that give them comfort in the home means they do
not have that money to internationally travel. But they you know,
that's not what they want anyway. I really think that
people think that living below your means it equates to deprivation,
and that's absolutely not true. I mean it's hard to
(39:10):
you know, look at the numbers. It's an unpaid it's
like a painful thing to do. All right, this is
the money we have coming in. This is the money
that we have going out. What is you know, how
much do we have? It's looking at that, looking at
the hard numbers and that look in the mirror to
see like what money do you have and what is
it that you value? Is it savings? Is it college
(39:33):
funds for your kids? Is it travel? Is it helping
family members who maybe need that help you know they're
at a stage of life.
Speaker 2 (39:41):
Yeah, well no, I think that's that's so true, and
I appreciate that that approach. I mean, what I'm hearing
is that you're not a hater, which I mean, that's
that's where we tend to fall. Because if it's something
that's important to you, I think you can almost justify
any expense out there if your heart is in the
right place, if it's something that you value and if
you and if you yeah, exactly if you've planned for.
Speaker 1 (40:03):
It, the problem is mostly get on credit, haven't played
for it, and so we're just spending like everyone else
around us, and we haven't done the deep work just
to really think about what does move the needle in
our lives, so that we can really spend intentionally there
and then start to curb spending in other areas that
maybe just weren't providing much bang for the buck, like
even something as simple as going to get a haircut
(40:25):
like every six or eight weeks or something like that.
Think about how that kind of money adds up. I'm guessing, Katie,
you don't pay someone else to cut your hair, right.
Speaker 3 (40:34):
Well, I used to, and I think I've heard that
you do this also Jole the Supercuts training center. Yes,
I use That's how I would get my haircut, and
I would like badger the kids to get their haircut
that way as well.
Speaker 2 (40:49):
Free haircut.
Speaker 3 (40:51):
And again you get the free haircut and then you
tip yep, and so yes, you're spending five dollars, but
they're not used to get a tip at all, and
so they're always really happy to get that.
Speaker 2 (41:02):
Do you tip them before they start cutting your hair?
That way, they try a little extra, a little harder.
Speaker 3 (41:07):
That is a good tip. But no. But the thing
is that that my one it seems to have gone dormant.
I can't figure it out. But I did get a
coupon for like Great Clips for ten ninety nine, so
I went in and I did that, and again, I
you know, I tipped well, I tipped not based on
a ten ninety nine haircut. Yeah, and I also very
infrequently get my haircut. I let it get long and
(41:28):
straggly and they chuck it off. Again.
Speaker 2 (41:30):
That's that's my current approach. Yes, So I've got my
own hair since I was in middle school, Katie, and
since the pandemic started. I was one of those that
was like, all right, I'm going to do the long
hair thing and we'll see how much longer it lasts.
Now it's getting a little unruly.
Speaker 1 (41:43):
Getting close to his touch, It's true, said on it.
Speaker 2 (41:49):
I almost can's that's getting getting problematic, Katie. You mentioned
your kids right, like you were trying to get them
to also attend the Great Clips. But I know that
you're essentially you're an empty nester.
Speaker 3 (41:59):
Now essentially they stopped by to look in the fridge,
very fruit hang out.
Speaker 2 (42:03):
Yeah, But I mean, you know, and you've got your husband.
When y'all like, did it ever cause problems? I guess
like your your frugal tendencies, did it ever cause any
family strife as you're trying to take the thermostat down
make it a little bit colder, or if you are
just all the different ways that you're trying to save money,
I'm curious.
Speaker 1 (42:23):
When you sell everyone's pants, like is that ruining family
relationships or anything?
Speaker 2 (42:27):
Yeah, how did you avoid that conflict?
Speaker 3 (42:30):
I wouldn't say that has ever caused strife, as that
is you know, a strong word to use. I would
say more that you know, no teenager ever wants to
be told no. And so whether or not you are
somebody who does traditional shopping where you're going to take
the kids to the mall, you're going to go to
Target whatever, I mean all kids here? No. And my
(42:53):
kids were used to me. They know me, and I
was always saying like, you know, hey, we can go
to a goodwill first and see if they have what
you want. And you know, maybe they were grumpy times,
but they knew that they would get a yes at goodwill.
And it doesn't take too many times of thinking like
(43:13):
oh no, I'm not getting what I want, and then
you end up finding something that's so expensive if you
had bought it new, and yet somehow you got it
for five dollars. You know, it turns things around.
Speaker 1 (43:26):
So do you feel like your kids have kind of
followed suit? Do they live a similar lifestyle to the
way you kind of raise them?
Speaker 2 (43:31):
Have they come around? Yes?
Speaker 3 (43:33):
No, I am not here to force my ways on
other people, even my own children, and I don't believe
anything good comes from forcing your point of view on
other people. They both will go to Goodwill for stuff
or you know, they'll ask me if I can check
on the buy nothing group to see if somebody has
(43:53):
a such and such, but they mostly just kind of
don't buy a lot of stuff. Okay, one does have
a credit card in order to build her credit rating,
but neither of them have any credit debt. We were
able to pay for them to go to college just
out of pocket through our extreme frugality, so we've set
(44:15):
them up for a really good adult life. They're not
starting with one hundred thousand dollars of debt, which I
just feel so bad for people who do not have
a choice about that. And they know that they're lucky
because their friends are not in that same situation. They're
able to take jobs that maybe can build to like
(44:36):
better jobs and in terms of career wise because they
can live on seventeen dollars an hour.
Speaker 1 (44:42):
Well, I love it. I mean I love your mission, Katie.
I love You've been out in a long time now,
through the Facebook group, your Instagram, through your blog, just
really teaching people about how to just think about purchases
and really life differently than kind of our modern conception
of it, which I really appreciate. It really fits with
the vibe of what Matt and I are trying to
(45:03):
do over here out of money. So how can our
listeners find out more about you and what you're up to.
Speaker 3 (45:08):
Well, I blog at the Non Consumer Advocate dot com
for years. I blog seven days a week. I have
bubt that back a bit and I put up a
fresh blog post every Monday and then sometimes the second
one during the week. I am on Instagram as the
non Consumer Advocate or maybe non consumer you think I.
Speaker 1 (45:31):
Know, well, link to them in the show notes so
everybody can FI find them quick.
Speaker 3 (45:34):
I have a Facebook group and that is the Non
Consumer Advocate. Thank you so much for having me on
and I hopefully was able to get the message across
that non consumerism isn't about being deprived, it's about saving money.
It's about doing that in a way that looks at
like the environmental impact of our purchases, and hopefully people
(45:59):
will respond to that. And I appreciate you having me on, Katie.
Speaker 1 (46:02):
Always glad to have you, great to chat. Thanks so
much for coming on. We'll talk to you soon.
Speaker 2 (46:05):
All right, Thank you Joel Man. What a great conversation
we had with especially about Okay, so first this isn't
a big takeaway, but I love that Katie wanted to
provide her her two cents on the third option. Right,
it's not just being frugal or being cheap. There's a
way that you can be cheap in most people's books, right, Like,
according to most people, they're going to say that, man,
(46:26):
you're taking you're taking the cheap option here. But to you,
you're being frugal.
Speaker 1 (46:30):
To you, you're being the non consumer. Then really, yeah,
you're just opting out of the game that everyone else
is playing, which I think is kind of Katie's main
message to say, like it's not just frugle or cheap,
it's like you can just check out of kind of
the normal path that most people take through society, which
is just to consume a lot more than they need to.
And she talked about that at the very end, how
that can be for environmental reasons, but it can be
(46:51):
for money saving reasons, and it can She's you know,
she even talked about how she was able to basically
set her kids up for a much better future because
she took.
Speaker 2 (46:59):
A different path too exactly. And I think what she
said is also true that it oftentimes can be because
of the pressures of other people, like you don't want
to be perceived as being cheap, and because of that,
they're just a lot more consumption that's taking place. But well,
was your big take aside from that, Aside from the
rug versus cheap conversation, what was your big takeaway from
our conversation today with Katie?
Speaker 1 (47:20):
You know, so tough to pick one thing, but when
she said that it all boils down to contentedness and
that if you are content with what you have and
with who you are, Madison Avenue can't touch you. And
I think oftentimes we are trying to fill a void
with kind of through consumerism, and we realize or typically
(47:41):
actually don't realize that we're not making much of a dent,
you know, in that void by buying things, and so
we kind of continue to try and it just never works, right.
And so I think that's a big part of kind
of what's going on, is that contentedness isn't terribly easy
to come by, and a lot of people are looking
to purchases to buy their happiness and it just it
(48:04):
doesn't work. And so I think, you know, we could
talk about all the strategies until we're blue in the face,
but if you can't find ways to be happy with
what you have and be happy with less, it's it's
going to be really hard I think for Katie's message
to be applicable to you.
Speaker 2 (48:19):
Very true. Yeah, all right, so since you went with
like a twenty thousand foot level take away, I'll dive
into the granular. I'll maybe some more than nuts and bolts.
And specifically, when she was talking about what she is
willing to essentially flip and sell on eBay or Facebook marketplace,
that first of all, she's looking to make at least
fifty bucks yeap, essentially like she's not going to do
(48:39):
something for just ten dollars for her it's not worth
her time. But one of the other things she pointed
out is that she is not going to take something
on that she has to fix. I like that because
I think that can also be a good rule of
thumb for folks who are out there and they're thinking, ah,
like I'm pretty good at thrifting, like I can spot
a good deal, or maybe hey, i'm pretty good with
a barkeeper's friend and I know how to shine this
(49:01):
thing up. And so I think if this is maybe
a tactic and approach that you're thinking about doing making
some additional money by selling things on eBay or Facebook,
don't look at the different things that need fixing, because
I think that's when you might end up being in
turning into a hoarder, right, because Katy is just like
I'm not a hoarder. She moves things pretty.
Speaker 1 (49:19):
Quickly, so like, get twenty six projects in your garage.
I know it need to be worked out. That's what
you that's probably what you don't want to turn into. Yeah,
And so I thought that was a good little nugget,
so that she's not looking necessarily to fix things, but
she will bring them in, wash them, get them cleaned up,
and then quickly.
Speaker 2 (49:33):
Turn them around for a profit. Yep, but keep that
in mind if you're also looking to make some extra
change on the side.
Speaker 1 (49:38):
I think it was last year that we did to
Sell Your Stuff challenge and a lot of listeners decided
they were going to try to sell fifty two things,
one thing a week and see how much money that
could make them. And so it is one of those
things where you could even look to pick up free
things or buy additional things that you know you can
turn for a profit and add those and try to
sell fifty two things this year in addition to just
(50:00):
kind of the things that you want to declutter or
get rid of from your own home. And then it's
just that last thing keeping those tax receipts. Who knows
how much that's going to save you on taxes when
it comes comes tax time from the stuff you're donating
when you take it to goodwill. But Matt, let's get
back to the beer that we had on this episode.
This was Cloudscape IPA by New Park Brewing or your
thoughts on this one.
Speaker 2 (50:20):
Yeah, First, a big thank you to Matthew. Thank you
for doating this one as well as the other New
Park bruise that we've had here on the show. I
assume this is the single IPA version of we had
a double Was it last week or a couple weeks ago?
But was it double cloud or I think so? Yeah?
So very similar, viye, very similar. Fantastic certainly drink more
like a single I guess not a double but a
(50:40):
single IPA but which just means.
Speaker 1 (50:42):
Like less robust, less intense, but still a little easier
to drink, packing a lot of flavor. Drinks more like
a hoppy, pale ale, but fantastic it. I mean it
had all of the qualities that you're looking for to
New England hazy IPA juicy, so it had a fair
amount of sugar is going on, but not too sweet
where it felt like it was just getting weighed down.
And it had that nice kind of fresh crispness that
(51:04):
you get from this hops. Yeah, really enjoyed it.
Speaker 2 (51:06):
Yeah, do you like it?
Speaker 3 (51:06):
Yeah?
Speaker 1 (51:07):
Yeah, I like you said crisp. It had like a
crispyiness to it, which usually is a word or a
description reserved for like pillars and bloggers and stuff like that,
but this was like kind of had it kind of
like a crisp Bypa, which I thought was a nice
little combo. It was definitely happy, definitely juicy, but had
that crispiness to it at the end, which I thought
kind of nice finish on that on this beer. For sure,
(51:28):
it was fantastic. Yeah, thanks, Matthew, appreciate it. Man and
matt that's going to do it for this episode. We'll
have links up to all of Katie's resources up in
the show notes up on our website at howtomoney dot com.
Speaker 2 (51:39):
All right, buddy, So until next time, best Friends Out,
Best Friends Out.
Hosts And Creators
Joel Larsgaard
Matthew Altmix
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