We're (mini) Retiring! w/ Jillian Johnsrud #999

*Special Episode Alert*... take a peek behind the curtain as we have an intimate, candid chat with our friend Jillian Johnsrud, a master of intentional career breaks and author of the upcoming book Retire Often (out in September). As we take a summer hiatus from new podcast episodes, we dive deep with Jillian into the art of stepping away from work. We explore overcoming the fear of pausing, navigating boredom, the stages of a meaningful break, how to discuss time off with others, and much more! We cut straight to it during this personal and inspirational convo!

 

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:02):
Just to fit in with the cool kids. She's like,
I'm gonna slurp while I want, dude, you know something
what to do with slurp. I don't care about that.
I just want you to be drinking in more enticing beverage.

Speaker 2 (00:11):
Do you drink beer? No, No, not at all.

Speaker 1 (00:16):
Is this something that you intentionally removed from your life
alcoholic generally speaking? Or is it just something that you
don't find No, I.

Speaker 2 (00:22):
Just I never I never acquired a taste for beer. Yeah,
which is kind of a bummer because in Montana there's
a lot of breweries yeah there and like we have
a special brewery license where they can't serve any other alcohol,
no wine, no mixed drinks, nothing out of can like nothing.
All they can serve is beer. They brew on site.
And the brewers are awesome, Like they have live music,

(00:44):
they close at eight thirty, like it's perfect. But it's
just me drinking like Lacroix, which this kind of bummer.

Speaker 1 (00:54):
There are the breweries up there, do they kind of
have like a family friendly vibe because that's something that.

Speaker 2 (00:59):
No one's like being obnoxious, like it makes it really
family friendly because exactly exactly you're going to show up
at six, have one beer, and then like go home
and have dinner.

Speaker 1 (01:07):
That's I'm all about that wholesome craft beer enjoyment. That's like,
that's what That's what we're all about. What's funny is Jillian,
we're actually gonna do. This is gonna be a very
different interview episode. We're all about experimenting when it comes
to anytime we have Jillian non I don't know, something
about you gives us we feel like we have the
freedom to be ourselves. So I don't know, hopefully you

(01:28):
take that as a compliment. We are already recording, actually,
and so I guess maybe we should still do some
sort of light introduction. The fact that we're talking with Jillian,
John's rude. You are a friend of ours. We've spoken
with you multiple times. You've got a new book coming out,
retire often. It's going to be out in a few months.
I will say this specifically September ninth. Is that still

(01:49):
the published date? Yes, that's awesome. But selfishly, we wanted
to have you on because we're going to take a
break over the summer. We want to make sure we're
doing it right ourselves, and so this is just kind
of an excuse to talk with you and to make
sure we're doing it right. We haven't really told our
audience yet. So and this.

Speaker 2 (02:05):
Is the big announcement.

Speaker 1 (02:07):
This announcement they've they've noticed because we're planning on some
of the couple Friday flights before this are going to
be a little different as well. That's true. So folks
are gonna be like, what's going on? Uh, something is afoots?
But uh did Matt finally get up a walk out
on Joel? Is that is that what happened? I'm still here, guys,
I'm still here. We're just we're trying some different stuff. Well,
and it comes at a perfect time, Jillian, because this

(02:28):
is episode we're gonna record episode one thousand. Matt and
I we've been doing the podcast for over seven years now.
This is our eighth year. Yeah, crazy, and so like
there's like a little bit of like an Old Testament
year of Jubilee action here. Hey, let's take a break.
Plus your influence talking to you about this over the years,
reading reading your book, and and and just your take

(02:49):
on sabbatical's many retirements and just taking more time off
has kind of gotten through to it. Through our thick skulls.

Speaker 2 (02:56):
I am so excited, but I I do not want
to be jipped out of my What do you enjoy
spending money on? Question? I? Well, you think you updated it.

Speaker 1 (03:09):
You updated it because I remember last time you talked
about what's so funny is? I specifically remember you saying this,
How you talked about the money that you spend at home,
depot or lows. You basically called it monopoly money because you're.

Speaker 2 (03:20):
Like, it doesn't matter, it's not even at all.

Speaker 1 (03:22):
I don't track it. I'm just going to spend it
no matter what. I care about my garden. So have
you updated it since then? Or are you kind of
doubling down? Well?

Speaker 2 (03:31):
No, so I have a new one. So I still
spend obscene ridiculous amounts of money gardening good. That is
not changed, but I have added so. Eight months ago,
I started learning tango because I am so obsessed. I
am all in on it, Like, take all of my money.
I want the lessons, I want the practica. I want
little malongas. I go to festivals. When I travel, I

(03:53):
do tango. I've been buying tango clothes, which.

Speaker 1 (03:57):
Like belong as. I assume that was an item of
clothing it's not.

Speaker 2 (04:01):
No, so the malong is a social dance, like where
you go for to dance tango? Okay, no, Like so
I'm in my forties, but like I for the first
time in my life, I am more in crop tops,
Like uh oh, do I have stretch marks? House? Do
I not have a six pack? Absolutely not? How many
cares do I have? Definitely zero. It's so much fun,

(04:25):
so I'm in it to win it. I love it
so yeah. But tango dancers, there's not many of us.

Speaker 1 (04:31):
I gotta guess there's fewer of them up in Montana
as well. Like I don't know Miami, I'm guessing there's
a lot of tango going on, but Montana, Argentina, Yeah,
feels a little bit different. You gotta find the right
part of the country. Always fun to find a new
hobby and then go hook line and sinker all in
on it.

Speaker 2 (04:48):
Oh and it takes forever to learn tango. It's like
such a long process. But if anyone needs his tango
and you're coming to Montana hitting up, I'm gonna be
like speaking in your city, like light yourself directly into
my DMS and let's go dance tango, because like it
and I'm learning to lead as well, so I can
dance with men and women and everyone like the whole thing.

(05:09):
I yeah, just take all of my money to learn
to chicken dance, guy, But tango sounds I'm the chicken
dance Joel loves the cotton eye Joe, especially as a
guy from the South. Okay, we can talk about many retirements.
But I had to, like I had to pitch tango
to anyone who's on the fence.

Speaker 1 (05:30):
Okay, So yeah, let's talk many retirements. You've written, You've
written the book on it. We talked about this with
you some last year. You were kind of still you
were in the writing phase of this book, and uh,
and we really do want to get personal with this.
So you you also coach people right when it comes
to how to take in many retirement. If you're coaching

(05:51):
me and Matt here as we are getting ready to
embark on our first many retirement. Matt, you've never taken
one before, have you?

Speaker 2 (05:58):
No?

Speaker 1 (05:59):
Okay? Yeah, so I'm like sit and sail, you know,
slapping the champagne bottle against the side of the ship
and pulling up the anchor. I don't know, you want
to help us, help us navigate this absolutely.

Speaker 2 (06:12):
Okay, So first question would be how long are you taking?

Speaker 1 (06:16):
But well, it varies because we're still going to be
doing a little bit of work. But let's just say
six seven ish weeks. Okay, I feel like you're disappointed.
Is that not long enough? No?

Speaker 2 (06:28):
No, that's awesome. Like, honestly, I think four weeks is
a great amount of time for the first mini retirement
because it's a little bit of a learning curve, and
especially when you're self employed, it takes so much effort
to be able to step away from work. It takes
so much preparation, and so the shorter time period like

(06:49):
the less risk you have, the less risk of things
burning to the ground while you're gone. But you can
kind of spread out that work. So the first one
you can do a month or two and then you
kind of get your bearings and you have some stuff
in place and you can build on that and maybe
next next year you take three months. Like the whole
summer you just go crazy, but it'll be that three

(07:10):
months will be so much better because you did the
first one. Okay, Well, not you say pointed.

Speaker 1 (07:14):
The learning curve, Like, what is it specifically that folks
have to learn. Is it just learning to let go
and to like disassociate from work to like learn, Oh,
in fact, I like to tango dance. Now, Like is
it giving yourself the time or the structure or setting
boundaries or fences around your time to discover new hobbies?
Like what is involved with this learning curve?

Speaker 2 (07:36):
So there's there's like a dozen ways a mini retirement
can go off the rails, and it's a little different
for everyone. But I would say one of the first
things I have people do is to really set the
intention for the time off. Even if and if you
want to pick two or three intentions, like that's okay,
but think about your mini retirement as like phases. Don't

(08:00):
like each of these intentions is kind of like an ingredient.
Don't mix them all together because sometimes they don't play
nicely with each other. And that can be one way
that a many retirement can be a little disappointing is
you're like, I'm going to recover from burnout and travel
to like seventeen countries and write a book. Like those
three things do not co exist. Actually, like you're not

(08:21):
going to do any of those well, So being really
clear on if I only accomplished one thing. If I
only accomplished one thing, what would that thing be, Because
it can be really tempting to be like, I'm going
to do twenty seven different things and feel a little
lackluster because you didn't actually make much progress on any

(08:41):
of them.

Speaker 1 (08:43):
What sort of intentions do people typically set out with
going into a many retirement and are they usually more
vague in general or are they highly specific? Like writing
a book is a highly specific thing. Hey, in these
eight weeks or whatever, I want to come back with
a MAINI shript But for some people it might just
be a little more like I want to dive more

(09:05):
into the spiritual realm of my life or something like that.
So yeah, how do people think through those?

Speaker 2 (09:12):
I would say a vague goal is okay, and it
also has to be specific. So really popular ones right
now are burnout. Like one of the last studies I read,
it's like eighty nine percent of Americans have experienced burnout
in the last year. It's just so prevalent that that's
a pretty big intention that people have a pretty big goal.
Extended travel, you know, stuff that you can't fit into

(09:34):
your nights and weekends, Like you just need more time
to accomplish it. Some people want to knock through kind
of their to do list. They want to get their
head above water. And whether that means like finishing up
house renovation projects or decluttering or just working through a
to do list, you know, big physical adventures, whether you're

(09:56):
preparing to like run a marathon or hike the Camino,
things that, gosh, it's just so tough to do alongside
the nine to five. Even tango. I took a month
off just just to learn tango because, like I said,
it takes a long time to learn, so to speed
up that learning curve, I went all in for a month.

Speaker 1 (10:15):
So I love what you're saying totally, But there's a
part of me that also says, like, isn't this just
the American way of doing things where we're like, we
got to make the most of our time out, like
let's optimize to the you know, to the hilt, as
opposed to I guess the maybe and maybe this is
why the first thing you said was to kind of
recover from burnout, which to me just sounds like taking
a break, like taking it easy. In fact, what's on

(10:36):
your to do list is nothing? Is I mean? Is
that what it looks like to recover from burnout, And
is that why that that's at the top of the
list because folks are looking to not have a to
do list, They're not looking for a list of accomplishments
at the end of a mini retirement.

Speaker 2 (10:52):
I don't recommend that it's it can be really tough
if people don't have a lot of practice or organizing
their schedule because they were in school and then college
and then work and other people have organized your schedule
for you for so long. It can be tough to
do that well. And most people don't intuitively know how

(11:13):
to recover, so it can be really possible to slip
into like the lowest common denominator, which might be like
scrolling Instagram and watching Netflix instead of doing things that
I like to call it like things that for you
are active rest, whether that's going for a walk or
going out to have a beer with a friend, or

(11:34):
traveling or reading a book or meditating, knowing what are
those activities that I do that actually help me feel
more rested. And you do have to schedule every minute
of the day, but if you have four or five
or six of those kind of on your to do list,
your to do list might look like take an up today,
take a bath, read a book, call my mom, but

(11:58):
it can be helpful. At the end of the day,
you look and you say, actually, I did exactly what
I needed to do, like I'm fully leaning into this
intention and I'm not.

Speaker 1 (12:10):
I don't know.

Speaker 2 (12:10):
People can kind of feel a little untethered and a
little restless and a little bit like I'm not sure
if I'm doing the right thing right now if they
don't have a tiny bit of structure.

Speaker 1 (12:20):
Do you think that that's harder for folks who are
who work for an employer, for folks who are W
two employees who typically have things delivered to them, as
opposed to somebody who's typically been self employed.

Speaker 2 (12:34):
Not really. I mean, most self employed people struggle with boundaries,
They struggle with work life balance, they struggle with prioritizing
their time. You know, they're constantly responding to demands, and
so yeah, they have a little bit more agency in

(12:55):
organizing their time, and most still struggle with it because
it's it's a hard thing to do, and.

Speaker 1 (13:00):
Many of them work more hours than your typical W
two employee. So yes, yeah, in some ways work might
make up a bigger portion of their life than the
person who goes, you know, work at the office for
somebody else. Matt mentioned the American thing of over optimizing.
It's interesting because many retirements in general, to me, they

(13:21):
come off as like a little French right when you
traveled to Paris, there's there's always a couple of trains
that aren't working. Take the month of August off, right, Yes, Yes,
the whole country shuts down. Yeah, and there's like pros
and cons right because yeah, you run in you know
who you always run into when you're on a big
trip is Australians and they're like, yeah, we're just taking
a few months off, and it's just kind of like

(13:42):
standard part for the course. In America, we have this
like inheritance from the Puritans that is, hey, nose to
the grind zone. We're going to work our butts off
and we're going to succeed and prosper because of it.
So I don't know, how do you help. I'm feeling
a little bit too as we go into this where
work has been an important part of my life and

(14:04):
creating this podcast in this business remains that and will
be that eight weeks from now. But how do I
detach maybe from this mindset that's become so ingrained.

Speaker 2 (14:15):
Yeah, there is, especially in work focused cultures, there is
a morality to work. Good people work, honest people work,
Dedicated people work. People who are committed to the outcome,
you know, work hard, and that is it is really ingrained.
So one of the kind of metaphors I use it

(14:35):
can be helpful for some people. I played basketball in
high school, was in a very like sports obsessed small
town in Montana here, and during the middle of the game,
you take a halftime. And this is true high school
all the way up to pro basketball. The most dedicated

(14:56):
players take a halftime, The most committed to the outcome
of the game take a halftime, The most hard working
players take a halftime, because that's the moment where you rest,
you recharge, and you reimagine how the next half of
this game is going to go. Because sometimes when you're
in the thick of it and you're in the moment,

(15:17):
it's hard to like pull yourself out of a mindset
or a path and really say, Okay, the first first
half didn't go so great, Like, let's think about how
we're going to make this different moving forward. And so
if you think about these many retirements as like, this
is what high performance people do. This is what people
do who are very committed to their work. When they're

(15:40):
very committed to the outcomes, they care so much that
they're willing to recalibrate and reimagine and rest so they
can show up more fully for the second half of
the game.

Speaker 1 (15:52):
When you put it in terms like that, it makes
it seem like that we should be taking a year
off because we're about to enter into like midlife crisis.
I don't know, I mean at the age we are.
I mean we're in our forties now, Like these are
like we start having some of these conversations, we start
asking some of these questions, we start thinking about like
we have family around us who are aging as well,
and it becomes incredibly tangible. And then you look at

(16:15):
your kids and you think, man, like the time I
have with you, it's it's limited, and I don't know
you obviously you've got you've got to balance that, and
maybe maybe we should have said this at the beginning,
Like this entire conversation is incredibly privileged, right. The fact
that a lot of how to money listeners won't have
the ability ability to do something like this maybe for

(16:36):
a little bit, maybe while they're clawing their way out
of debt. But I also think that there are a
ton of listeners who have been doing the right thing
for years or even decades. They were doing the right
thing before we even started talking on the mic joining
and so because of that they have the ability to
pull something like this off. That's an incredible position to
be in. So I'm pointing out the balance that you
got to strike between like feeling like you got to

(16:57):
follow your heart's desire and pouring into kids and what not.
And actually, so I mentioned kids, how do you think
about kids? Like you've got a bunch of kids? How much?
And it's interesting because in your in your email, you
were saying, Hey, I would love to talk with y'all
if y'all want to talk about this before the kids
get out for school. It sounded like you were having

(17:17):
that shape the work that you were willing or to not,
you know, not willing to do this summer. How much
of an impact to your kids and your ability to
pour into them. How does that impact how you've you work?
How much you are willing to work?

Speaker 2 (17:31):
One hundred percent? But can I loop back? Just because
we're friends.

Speaker 1 (17:36):
Yeah, there's a lot. Now I'll talk for like ten
minutes just now.

Speaker 2 (17:40):
Because you mentioned like it being a very privileged position,
and I think there is sometimes this mindset of like
this is for people who have half a million dollars,
this is for people who make one hundred thousand dollars.
And it's it's funny on my side because I see
the whole spectrum of people. Everyone has a reason that

(18:02):
it's hard for them. The people who make two hundred
thousand dollars say it's impossible for me to take a
month off because I'm too important, Like they need me
at work, Like there's no way that they could survive
without me for a month. Maybe they have the funds
to do it, but they don't feel like they have
access to the time where I took many retirements. You know,
me and my previous spouse, we never made a lot

(18:25):
of money. Like I worked a lot of normal jobs
that I worked at Starbucks, I worked at RAI, I
sold mattresses. And in the book, I talk about in
order to take a month off every year, Like if
that's kind of this goal, like this biggest aspiration, I'm
gonna take a month off every year for my whole
working career, you have to save an additional six and
a half percent. And the great thing if you're only

(18:48):
bringing home two thousand dollars a month, three thousand dollars
a month, is we're talking like a couple hundred bucks
a couple hundred bucks, and you can take a month
off every other year and do these really incredible adventures,
have these amazing experiences because you don't have to replace
as much living cost. And and I in the book,

(19:09):
I kind of talk about like if you're earlier in
your financial journey, pick the more affordable things, like you
don't have to do an around the world cruise. When
I was in my twenties, you know, we had paid
off debt. I think getting out of credit card debt
solid goal when we were saving. But a friend and
I did a month long road trip DC to Seattle

(19:30):
and back in my hond my green Hondasoviac. Like we
slept on people's couches and we camped and like we
almost got stampled by bison. It was like a really
great trip. And I think it was like three thousand bucks,
Like it wasn't a massive amount of money. And I
paid for the whole thing, because I was like, honey,
I got the money, if you've got the time, like,

(19:50):
let's go.

Speaker 1 (19:51):
That's awesome. Now you're making me think, actually, I have
had a mini retirement. It was when I was like
twenty one. I was working in my first job in radio,
and I just had to wake up way too early,
and it was like the morning show, which is just
like the worstship that ages you like a president. And
so my buddy was like, well, let's buy a cheap
station wagon drive around the country. And we did for

(20:11):
three months and we had the greatest time, and it
cost so little money, and I didn't have almost anything saved.
So I think you're right that my mini retirement now,
with kids and in my forties is going to look
a lot look different. It's gonna look a lot different.
It doesn't have to be the around the world thing, No,
it will be. But so I guess that's just me

(20:31):
projecting Jillian, where I'm just like, oh man, oh, I
guess like there's a certain amount of gratitude that we
should all feel to be able to pull something like
that off off all together. But what you're speaking to
here is that it doesn't have to be this amazing,
no holds barred sort of trip around the instagram worthy
many retirements. Yeah, yeah, the people got at and lustover.

(20:53):
But you said one hundred percent to the kids thing.
Did you want to touch on.

Speaker 2 (20:56):
That, Yes, let's talk about kids. There is gosh. One
of I think the biggest motivations for people to take
many retirements is this idea that there are seasons with
expiration dates, Like if you don't do it now, that
window's going to close and there's no going back. There's

(21:16):
a whole bunch of things in your life that like
they just won't hold until you're sixty five. I remember
me and my kidd as were doing a ten week trip.
We did ten national parks in a pop up camper
with our dog, and we we'd already been on the
road for maybe seven eight weeks, and we were in Yosemite,
and I remember waking up thinking, oh, this is probably

(21:39):
the last time we can do this, Like if we
if we didn't do this now like this, this will
not sit on the shelf for fifteen more years. My
kids in their twenties are not going to be in
a pop up camper with me, all seven of us
touring the US without Wi Fi, and so there is

(22:01):
the sense of like, you know, retirement in your sixties
is great, but you might have missed your window. I
was talking about family and like parents aging. I was
just interviewing Doug who hosts them my Mile High five
podcast about his MANI retirement and he did a six
week trip to Alaska. And you know, all of his

(22:22):
friends are working, all of his siblings are working, but
his parents were retired. So his parents went with him,
and he was like, it was incredible, Like we spent
six weeks in the car with my parents. Like it's
so rare in middle age to get that much time
with your parents. Those days are so numbered. And he's like,
went to Alaska, it was so beautiful. We had this
amazing thing was twenty nineteen, and a month later his

(22:42):
mom got diagnosed with cancer and then she passed away
a year after that. Like that was they had no
idea about Like that was the last moment, that was
the last opportunity he could have done that. And I'm
sure you guys like are in the thick of it,
like many retirements are such a hassle, Like they legitimately are.

(23:03):
They're logistically challenging and mentally challenging and emotionally challenging and
financially challenging, and all of those challenges fade in the
rear view mirror every passing year. When you look back,
those challenges get smaller and smaller and smaller, Like Joel,
I'm sure for you, like looking back at the challenges
of taking that three month road trip, Like at the

(23:25):
time it was like, oh, this is like a lot,
and now you're like whatever, that was nothing, Like the
challenges mean nothing, but the experience in the rear view
mirror gets bigger and bigger and bigger and more meaningful
because yeah, your kids are young and like they're not
going to be that age again, Like this is your
one shot.

Speaker 1 (23:50):
Okay, from our business perspective, right, we're piecing out of
here for a little while. They're going to hear I'll
call the classic Mat and Joel episodes that are still
worth listening to. Please do check your podcaster, especially if
you haven't been around long. They're gonna be They're great episodes.
There's a reason we call them besties, right. It kind

(24:11):
of tastes something good. So what should I how much
should Matt and I be in touch with business stuff
while we're gone, even though we're not recording new content.
And what would you what would you say to the
worried part of me who's like a lot of these
people who are listening to this episode, maybe like five
weeks from now, they're gonna be like, I'm done with

(24:31):
those guys. Are they ever coming back? And yes, we
are coming back.

Speaker 2 (24:35):
So not suppoific to you, but for self employed people
in general, for your first mini retirement, I encourage about
ten percent of whatever you normally work. If you can
reduce whatever your work hours are to ten percent, it
seems to be a sweet spot of like really allowing
you to lean into whatever those goals or intentions are

(24:56):
while not adding additional stress that things are burning down,
Like it actually takes sometimes more emotional energy to not
know what's happening than to just like check in for
an hour and be like, oh, okay, everything's fine and
we put out that little fire. So I find for
the first one, you know, a month two months is
a great time frame doing ten percent of the work.

(25:17):
So if you work forty hours, maybe do ten do
four hours, maybe ten hours a week and the first
week is kind of the hardest because you're like almost
having kind of I don't know, not withdrawals, but like
it feels so unfamiliar to be out of that routine.
You start to settle it, and then by the end

(25:38):
you're like, I don't need to look at any emails.
They're fine, they're fine, everything's fine. We're having fun. But yeah,
you'll find that five ten hours a week usually is
a good starting spot. And you know, with your business,
like as a business owner, you can you can make
that choice either way. Like you guys could have said,

(26:00):
you know what, we're going to like work a ton
more before we leave. We're gonna get all this work.
We're going to record all these episodes in advance, or
we're gonna bring on guest hosts, or we're gonna like
do all this extra work because if someone bails, like
that's not an outcome that we can live with, Like
it's too detrimental to our lives in our business. And
so you hustle a little bit more on the front

(26:22):
end and you do a little bit more without logistics,
or if you're like, ultimately, this is the lifestyle we
want to have, and so I'm going to build a
business that matches the life I want to have, even
if that business is slightly different than how it looks currently.

Speaker 1 (26:39):
That's emotionally hard though, right, I mean that's the like,
there's there's a part of it's like yeah, this like that,
like I love it, Like I am all about that.
But like it's one thing to mentally know that and
to say and to write down on paper that yes, uh,
we are in a position to where we can step
away like this. We are in a position where we
can lose some listeners if you know, so be it.

(27:02):
It's another thing to actually follow through and to actually
do the thing. I feel like the emotional hurdle for
most folks is likely going to be the most difficult
part of it. What would you say, like, how else
would you coach someone through? I guess that emotional component
maybe some of that fear.

Speaker 2 (27:20):
There's so much fear, and there's like one hundred different
flavors of fear. But to address like the business aspect
to mindsets and perspectives that can be helpful one. The
clients you lose, the listeners you lose are typically the
worst ones.

Speaker 1 (27:38):
All the good ones are going to stick around.

Speaker 2 (27:39):
No offense to anyone listening who's like all piece out like,
but the people who are so demanding and so unreasonable
and they ask so much of you, those are the
clients that are like, this doesn't work for me, And
you keep your best clients. You keep your best listeners,
the ones that are like, oh wait, you're a human
being and want to live a life, and I can

(28:02):
respect that and deal with the slight discomfort of not
having a brand new episode every week. And then on
the other side, there are so many logistics, like it's
such a pain to do all of the work to
organize your business and simplify things, automate things, delegate things,

(28:22):
document things, like all four of those steps are a
crap ten of work. But when people come back, let's
say let's say you were both working forty hours a
week now and you've managed to figure out how to
get that down to ten for these let's say eight weeks.
You come back and you might be like, oh, actually,
it doesn't take me forty hours anymore, Like I can,

(28:44):
we can do this in thirty And now you have
this extra ten hours to build that cool new thing
that you didn't You like the idea but you never
had time for or to expand this thing or to
take on another project, or you can say, actually, the
business is doing great, like let's just keep those ten
hours as like bonus lifestyle hours, and from now on,

(29:06):
I only work thirty hours a week. And I've seen
business owners go both ways, like I a mutual friend
of ours, I interviewed pet on my show because he's
stepped away from his conference for like two years and
did like a massive reset, and it's so much worked
to logistically step away from something you created. But then
when he came back, he bought like two more businesses,

(29:29):
Like he tripled what he was doing because he had
this bandwidth and now he had this team that was
like able to handle his one business. And he's like,
there's absolutely no way if I was just running the
one business, I ever would have bought two more businesses,
Like yeah, because I didn't have the time or the
space or the energy for it.

Speaker 1 (29:47):
Yeah, it was. I was going to ask you about,
like there was new data out not too long ago
about how the average American is working fewer hours than
they haven't a long time. Work hours, especially for younger
workers on a weekly basis, have decreased by by a
not insignificant amount. So but it sounds like what you're saying.
I was going to say, well, what do you think

(30:08):
is it better to pull the mini retirement ripcord or
to kind of prioritize your a general average work week
to just be less work centric and have more free time.
But it sounds like you're saying the mini retirement is
almost like the propellant to give you better work weeks
and hopefully just more balanced work weeks in the future.

Speaker 2 (30:30):
Yeah, I would say both, Like a mini retirement is
a great like hard reset, and it can get you
up to that baseline. If someone will say I want
to struggle with exhaustion and fatigue in my job for
thirty hours a week, or should I take six weeks
off and like actually come back one hundred percent? I
think most people are happier when they can show up

(30:52):
to work excited, energized, creative, like motivated. When they can
bring that energy, they enjoy what they're doing more. Whether
you're doing it thirty hours a week or forty hours
a week, those hours are just better. I remember being
a kid and thinking, gosh, people on their forties are boring,
Like they just they don't seem excited about anything. They

(31:16):
don't seem interested, they're not doing any cool things. And
then I got to my forties and I was like,
oh no, they're just tired, and they're not boring. They're
just tired. It's so easy, especially in midlife, to just
feel overwhelmed by all of the different responsibilities. But I
have found when people take many retirements, it's like rolling

(31:38):
back the clock, depending how long they're gone. They took
six months off, a year, two years off, all of
a sudden. Instead of feeling I'm forty two, so we'll
say forty two, they feel thirty five, and then six
months later they're like, actually I feel thirty And then
six months later they're like, actually, this is what I
felt like at twenty five. Like this level of like

(31:59):
creating a vidiot excitement and enthusiasm might have for life.
Like I'm not I'm not boring. I was just tired.

Speaker 1 (32:06):
YEA makes sense. I get that. I see the bags
under your eyes, Matt. I mean it just makes sense.
And I think what you were saying too, Jill, just
finding ways to maybe reduce some of those hours, like yes,
you can come back with charge, but even I think
for some folks it's it is that day in day
out margin that they are able to not even shoehorn

(32:28):
into their life anymore, but to proactively constructively craft and
to create room for these other aspects of life, right,
like these other facets, these other other parts of our
our life that maybe we think we need to work on,
or even know we need to work on. How would
you how would you recommend for someone to do that?
Like if someone is thinking, well, I'm not even sure

(32:49):
what aspects of my life I should be focusing on, Joel.
Like earlier you mentioned something about like a spiritual journey.
There's this framework the spire. It's like spiritual, Uh, what
is relational? Intellectual, physical, physical? That's the pe part. Yeah,

(33:10):
emotional emotional health as well. Do you have any sort
of rules of thumb or any sort of methodology that
you would recommend for folks to examine their life, because
I think there might be a lot of folks and
there might be some of these arenas in their life
that they need a walk down that they aren't even
aware of the fact that this is an area of
their life that hasn't you know. It's like a piece
of this passwork of dirt that hasn't had a rake

(33:32):
touch it in years or decades, and it's there's you know,
there's some weed, and there's some plow and there's some
shoveling that needs to happen in that part of their life.
How would you recommend for folks to think through that?

Speaker 2 (33:42):
I mean, okay, so ideally, yes, try to figure this
out before you start. But I also understand some people
have no mental and emotional bandwidth. Their job is taking
all of it, and so they walk out of that
like burned to a crisp. Like in my group coaching,

(34:05):
I say, you know, if you're planning a mini retirement
in the next year or if you're in one, ideally, yeah,
you start figuring this stuff out before you start. But
I know a lot of people can't. Like they can't
even they can't watch a five minute video like there
are no new thoughts happening in their head because they're
so burned out and so overwhelmed. So if you're in

(34:25):
the mini retirement and you need to figure it out,
I the step four of my book is like how
to navigate the journey and some unexpected things that will
pop up, and so for better or worse, I'm this
concept called like the messy kitchen, and that when you know,
at night, let's say you're really tired and you don't
clean up your kitchen after dinner, and then in the morning,
like you're really busy and trying to get a house

(34:47):
for work and for kids, and and so you leave
your messy kitchen, but you go to work all day.
I don't work. You don't see the messy kitchen, and
work you don't have to deal with the messy kitchen.
Like the breakroom looks great and you can kind of
avoid it because it's not ever present in front of you.
And there are a whole bunch of people that have

(35:07):
been trying to outrun an avalanche and they've just worked harder,
and they've worked faster, and they've worked longer, so they
don't have to deal with these parts of their life
that are complicated and hard and messy. And sometimes people
feel like they go on a mini retirement and the
mini retirement creates problems. Actually, the mini retirement's really good

(35:32):
at revealing the problems that were always there that work
was effectively covering up for you. And so that can
be a bummer. You're like, oh, actually, I don't have
many friends, or I'm not in that great as shape, uh,
or my kids don't actually enjoy hanging out with me
very much. And that's a super bummer to realize. But

(35:54):
the mini retirements also the solution, because now you have
the time and the energy and the band with to
fix some of these things. You know, if you've been
running from bad habits or mental health issues, or childhood
trauma or all a host a variety of things. In
the mini retirement, you'll you just give usit in I

(36:15):
miss the kitchen, and you'll you'll figure it out real quick.
You should be working on.

Speaker 1 (36:19):
Yeah, it's almost like I like, what I hear you
saying is like, wherever there's going to be some discomfort,
which there is inevitably gonna be, to almost not ignore that,
because that's typically what we do, right, Like we just ignore,
we preoccupy ourselves. Oh, nine o'clock, gotta check into the office,
gotta show up in the chat, whatever it is. But
what I hear you saying is to lean into that,

(36:40):
to lean into that discomfort, to like look at square
in the face the thing that is making us squirm
a little bit. With this additional time, and maybe that
in and of itself is the thing that somehow we
need to get to the bottom.

Speaker 2 (36:52):
Of absolutely because you will not outrun the avalanche forever.
Like well, you can either pause and deal with it
or it will bury you unexpectedly at the least convenient
moment of your life. So like you can't outrun these consequences.
And it's one of the reasons that like traditional retirement

(37:13):
can be a rough transition because they've been trying to
outrun it for a long time and now they're staring
down the barrel of thirty more years. And it's not
just the kitchen that's messy. There's a lot of areas
of their life that are messy. And that's it's hard
enough to change one thing about our lives. Like so
in my kind of dark humor, I think doing multiple

(37:36):
many retirements is like a great opportunity to like spread
out the disappointment and the pain. Don't deal with it
all at the end, just space it out. Deal with
a little bit of disappointment, a little bit of discomfort,
you know, every couple of years, and keep up on it.

Speaker 1 (37:52):
Yeah, just only focus on how you're a disappointment to
your family during this many retirement and you can say
the physical fitness part next year.

Speaker 2 (38:01):
If you've been reading my journal.

Speaker 1 (38:06):
Just trying to appreciate Jillian's darkum, that's that, Jillian. It's
it's kind of weird. Man hitted at the kind of
privilege of being able to take of many retirement and
you kind of said, well, actually it's more accessible than
most people like to think. But when you're telling your

(38:26):
friend about or your your coworker or your parents or
something like that, who busted their butt for forty years
to get the gold Watch kind of thing, and you're like, hey,
I'm gonna take the same called of mini retirement. I'm
gonna take like three months off of work, and they're like,
must be nice. Like, I'm sure that's a common refrain

(38:47):
that you get from from people around you who can't
fathom how it's possible and think you must be like
independently wealthy or something like that. Who should we tell
and how should we be telling them about this break
to avoid the super awkward conversations, Oh my gosh, just
and go.

Speaker 2 (39:06):
Off the rails so quick. Yeah, Actually, last night in
the group coaching, we were talking about this exapt topic,
how do we structure these conversations with coworkers, friends, and family.
Those are three very distinct groups. And first, like, so
there's two rules of memoir. If you're writing a memoir,
it all has to be true. And the second rule

(39:27):
is it cannot be the whole truth. If you try
to include every detail, you will lose the plot. So
curate what percentage of the truth you're going to tell.
And keep it super simple, like, don't focus on the
question marks. Keep it to the very tangible things that
you do know, you know, for example, like, yeah, I

(39:48):
need to I need to take this time off. It's
been really burned out, you know, the last five years
have been super busy. I'm really going to focus on
my kind of meditation and yoga practice. Planning to do
like a yogurt in Thailand for three weeks to kind
of cap it all off, looking forward to coming back
really refreshed. Keep it real simple, and don't invite other

(40:12):
people's emotional baggage, because they have their own biases, they
have their own values, they have their own complicated relationship
with work and money. Like there's probably no two things
that trigger people more than work and money, and they
will want to project all of that on you, and
so having some emotional boundaries of like and sometimes if

(40:37):
I'm feeling really honry, like every once in all, I'm sassy.
If I'm feeling really sassy and people aren't getting this
emotional boundary, I'll I'll literally like turn the script on
them if they say things like I don't know how
you do that, Like aren't you going to be so
worried about your career? Like I think this isn't this
financially like too big of a risk? I would say,

(41:00):
I can see how you would be worried about your
career if you took a mini retirement, and maybe it
would be a big financial risk for you. Like that's
their stuff that they're trying to put on you, and
it's not yours to pick up, Like you don't have
to pick that up. So having those boundaries and another

(41:20):
pro tip if you are in like a work obsessed culture,
there is something about a work obsessed culture that there's
this idea of like if you've earned the reward, like
then it's justified. And so sometimes if you put in
just like a sentence or two of like, you know,
we've been planning this for a long time. It took

(41:41):
a lot of savings and kind of logistics to figure
it out. But now we're able to take this year
off and do this road trip with our kids, and
we're really excited about it. And people are like, oh, wait,
you did the work and you earned this reward. Okay,
that's acceptable, Versus if you were like, yeah, I don't know,
I've just kind of just winging, like I'm still burned out.
I just left, like we're gonna go take a year off.

(42:02):
Then they're like, no, no, no, you haven't earned it yet,
So you can kind of play on that.

Speaker 1 (42:08):
Yeah, yeah, cultural narrative there, One of those seems easier
than the other, right, Like, obviously it's gonna be easier
to play the game to agree with the assumptions that
they are operating their life by. Does that feel like
a cop out to you, because in one sense, what's
the harder thing to do here is to be truthful.
Like the easy thing to do is to say, yeah,

(42:31):
we've been working on this, we're gonna do it. X
equals why or you know, xplus whatever, X plus y
equals z the road trip. Like that's the easy thing.
But the harder thing seems to me to be like
to be less agreeable and to say, yeah, we're not
totally sure so, but we're just gonna do this thing.
I like that though, because that feeds into this sort

(42:52):
of countercultural narrative that hey, life isn't linear, or just
because you've worked hard, that doesn't necessarily mean that you
can then achieve whatever the thing is. And you're even
saying too, you know, I mean, Joel, the fact that
you were even you mentioned like the pre career many
retirement India or are you Jillian talking about how like

(43:13):
you've taken tons of these right and so, and we're
trying to fight back against the Oh, yes, you're gonna
work forty fifty years and then you can retire. That's
the linear sort of model. It's almost more work the
Warre and buffet model where you step down at age
ninety four. Yeah, it's almost it's almost more work, to
be honest. But I feel like that that has I

(43:33):
don't know, almost like a higher ability to impact people
for the better.

Speaker 2 (43:38):
I would say, whatever you have emotional bandwidth to do,
Like if you want to go out and chase the
world and like fight with a bunch of people and
like have a bunch of people argue with you than
like have at it. But like I said, many retirements
are a pain in the butt, and if you just
don't have that emotional energy to engage in like fruitless
arguments with people, and like other people unpack all their

(44:01):
baggage on you. If you're like, I've got enough on
my plate, then you know, come up with a real
simple answer and leave it at that. But there are
certain people that will ask more honest questions. They will
be more curious. They're not just pushing their baggage on you.

(44:22):
They legitimately want to know. And then that can be
a fun conversation of like just buy my book and
slip it like in their desk and be like, read
this and we'll talk about it in like a month,
like start a secret book club with like all of
your coworkers. Like that can be fun. But sometimes I
find people aren't asking what I call like an honest question.
They're just projecting their fear, like don't you think this

(44:44):
is a bad idea? That's not an honest question. An
honest question is like, oh, you're thinking about a curer pivot.
That's cool, Like what might you want to do next?
I'll answer any honest question but I don't have a
ton of bandwidth to like carry other people's stuff. It's
like my stuffs heavy enough.

Speaker 1 (45:03):
It's like trying to get into YouTube comments and ride
every wrong. It's like probably not worth your time or Twitter. Okay,
So Jillian, we Matt and I we're going to be
We got one more episode coming out and then we're
going to be out until the beginning of August. So
do you have any questions for us or any last

(45:24):
words of wisdom for us before we embark on? I
guess technically it's my second mini retirement's math's first. I
just thought of that as like a youthful excursion, but
looking back, I'm like, oh no, it really was one
of those things. It really was that for me. So yeah,
do you have any any thoughts for us as we
in this conversation?

Speaker 2 (45:43):
Yes. So one of the tools step four is do
a weekly check in, because this thing will get away
from you and it will go off the rails, like
it just will no matter how well you have it planned.
You know, in group coaching, I always encourage real like
we're we spend like sixteen weeks doing this. This is
not like a quick process. So in theory, you would

(46:05):
have like this air type plan. No, no, no, we don't.
We have a sixty percent plan and forty percent we
have to acknowledge is make believe. It's just assumptions. It's
how we think it's going to go. But as you
get into the mini retirement, think about each week is
like I'm running an experiment. I'm testing a hypothesis, and
at the end of the week, I'm going to see

(46:26):
how did that work out? Like did that go how
I thought it did? Take that new information, sowop out
actual information for some of the make belief stuff you
had in that plan, and test it again the next week,
because the time will get away from you, like some
things will just go off the rails, you know what,
what are the people? Last night was like like I

(46:46):
thought this was gonna be like super relaxing, and like
things are chaotic and the house is busy and like
the kids and like it's not it's not quite what I imagine.
I'm like, Okay, yeah, cool, And now we regroup and
like we test some new things and we try some
new things. And so I think if more people had
those check ins, check in with your spouse, check in

(47:07):
with your kids, like check in with people in your
life that could be very helpful. And the second thing
is like acknowledged that forty percent is make believe and
be willing to pivot accordingly. You know, I remember one
of my crushing clients last year knew she was a

(47:27):
little burned out, but like planned this massive epic trip.
And I always say that's cool, Like plan cool trips.
But make sure you're willing to pivot, Like make sure
you're willing to be flexible, because there can be an
emotional suffering that we add onto ourselves by being disappointed
things aren't going as planned and you might find a

(47:48):
week in, two weeks in, I'm exhausted, I'm so burned out,
like I'm dreading the schedule that we've created for ourselves.
Don't push through that. Do your weekly check in and say, actually,
this sucks. We need to do something different and rebook
some reservations, slow it down, do less activities, like make

(48:08):
those pivots, and be emotionally okay with making those pivots
that you're not failing at it, you're just learning as
you go.

Speaker 1 (48:16):
Yeah, gosh, that's so good. Yeah to bring I don't
want to bring it back to personal finance, but like
that's some cost fallacy, right, like when we are so
emotional emotionally committed to something that we follow through with
it anyway, even to the overall detriments of the overall
portfolio expense or in this case person. But Jillian Man,

(48:36):
we really, as always truly appreciate you taking the time
to chat with us on a personal level, but just
for you to share your wisdom with our listeners as well.
We'll make sure to link specifically to your book Retire
often when it comes out, we'll make sure to feature
it as well once it actually does publish, probably in
the newsletter or something like that. But yeah, thank you

(48:57):
so much for talking with us today.

Speaker 2 (48:59):
Awesome. I am so excited for your many retirement. I
hope it's awesome. And if it goes off the rails,
just give me a call.

Speaker 1 (49:07):
We will thank you so much for that offer. Yep,
all right, Matt. This is a different episode, very different,
not a Friday flight. I'm sure there's like some tariff
montrusting going on that we're not talking about, so like
talk about this talk bro, not today. So okay, man,
this is a kind of a self gratifying episode in
one way, but hopefully it's also helpful for everyone else

(49:30):
out there listening. So I think that's why we felt
the freedom to do something like this as well, because
this wasn't just a personal quest. But yeah, I think
there are some takeaways that folks were able to glean
from our conversation. And we actually, just before I hit
record again, debated whether or not we would even do
the big takeaway because we were like, oh, let's just
talk with Jillian and see what happens. I was like,
we have mentioned we still had a beer on the episode.

(49:52):
Did you want to share like just like a brief
big takeaway? Briefly, I thought when she said the term
active rest, And I love the way that sounds, because
I don't want this time away to be like you
don't want to fall into a Netflix no binge watching,
not at all, and I watch so little TV. I
just don't And there's definitely some shows I'm like, I'd
love to catch up on that still want to watch

(50:13):
The Brutalist haven't watched that somehow yet. Maybe I'll dedicate
you gotta you gotta save that for the many retirement,
because that's when you'll finally have the time. I will
dedicate four hours to watch a four our film, but
maybe to nothing else. But I like the idea of
active rest where you're engaging in the activities that are
going to give you life and and you're not just
zoning out because a man, I don't know about you,

(50:35):
but especially like when my kids, if they've zoned out
in front of the TV, their attitudes are terrible, and
I think the same is true for me, Like if
I spend too much time in front of the TV,
like my attitude goes down the drain. And so I
want to I want to partake in rest, but I
want to do it hopefully in a healthy, productive way. Totally,
my big takeaway is gonna be the phrase that she
said that there are seasons with expiration dates and shouldn't

(50:58):
be surprising. I feel like both of our big takeaways
are indicative of like where our head and where our
hearts are at and maybe what you know with what
we're hoping to do with the time, but and specifically
and how that pertains to having kids at home if
that's you, if you've got a family, but even if
you don't, there are different seasons, right, Like we all
have parents, and so what does that look like the
example she gave with Doug and his parents with that

(51:19):
road trip that they took up to Alaska. When it
comes to different expiration dates that we have on our
own health and the ability to do certain things, I
think it's worth taking stock. And that's one of the
things you're able to do hopefully ahead of time. That
way you can make the most of the time off.
But sometimes you just got to get there first. Yeah,
I think, yeah, And that was Gosh. You can't outrun
the avalanche. And sometimes you don't know what it is

(51:41):
that you're going to face during the many retirement, and
it's a great time to turn and face the avalanche
and in a like a proact of kind of oh,
this is going to overtake me. But I've got the
bandwidth to deal with this at this point in my life.
All right, let's mention the beer we had. Yes, this one?
Was it called Bone Church? Bone Church? The fine folks
over at Creature Comforts. This is the check a check

(52:03):
style Amber Lagger. What'd you think, dude? Gorgeous? By the way,
it was called Bone Church. I had to look this
up because apparently there is a church just outside of
Prague that has bones from tens of thousands of people
decorating the entire church, from the chandeliers, coats of arms,
and the black death yes right, yeah, and it looks awesome,

(52:24):
Like I totally want to go check those out. There's
some hooks to listen to who are like, yeah, bro,
I checked that out during my sabbatical. Took exactly what
I was a prog on this one, but maybe on
the next time. This beer, though gorgeous, amber colored, delightful
caramel vibes, nice and clean at the same time, though
really nice. I had a lot of like little idiosyncratic
flavors coming through, shining through. It was not plain, even

(52:46):
though this style sometimes can be. One note, this one
was not. I just I really enjoyed it. It was tasty.
Glad that you and I got to share this one.
And yeah, we hope everyone ooh has a fantastic weekend.
That's not normally something we say at the end of
a conversation or interview with your friend. But we'll see
back here next week for on Monday, because we've got
our one thousandth episode On Monday, the ask me anything,

(53:09):
and we're gonna talk about everything. We're gonna talk a
little bit about money, but a lot about hopefully. Man, gosh,
are we doing two self indulgent episodes in a row?

Speaker 2 (53:18):
Now?

Speaker 1 (53:18):
No, these are their questions that they have for us.
That's true. That's true. So catch out on Monday. Look
forward to that. But until then, until next time, best friends,
our best friends out. May we really appreciate you taking

(53:40):
the time to like wade through some of this in
a very meataw way for us personally, but then also
for the show.

Speaker 2 (53:51):
Awesome. And I think I think by the end you're
gonna be like, yeah, this is the pass forward, Like
we're a hundred person doing this again.

Speaker 1 (53:59):
Like Matt's always been pushing us more in this direction.
I'm I'm kind of the My dad was kind of
the dude who worked sixty hours a week, and uh
so it's just what I saw modeled and I was like,
that must be the way. Uh, and so Matt's always
kind of pushed us towards us and so we even
now we work four days a week and we work
pretty like I don't know, pretty flex hours or pretty

(54:21):
flex hours stuff like that. So uh, from that standpoint,
but this was like another step in that direction of
that that feels like a leap of faith. Yeah, that
is I like buck against emotionally and viscerally. And then
like the more I think about it and lean into
what it could be, I'm like, Okay, no, that could

(54:43):
be good, Like I need this, Like this could be Yeah.
I think just work is such a central element, such
a central focus of our culture and our lives, and
like you know my story growing up that it's it
feels like the right thing to do, and then you've
got to find your way and carve your own way
and say, no, that's not what it's going to be

(55:04):
for me.

Speaker 2 (55:05):
And I do think especially I mean it's true for
nine to five employees, but especially for self employed, Like
it seems to unlock something, like people come back because
there's I talk around the book, like the difference in
like high performance athletes. If you're ten percent faster than

(55:28):
everyone else, you win one hundred percent of the races,
Like it's really disproportionate. You don't win ten percent more races,
like you win all of them. And it's just like
those little things are so high leverage. If you come
back twenty percent better, twenty percent more creative, twenty percent
more motivated, Like it can make one hundred percent of

(55:51):
the difference, and so there's.

Speaker 1 (55:54):
Twenty percent more clarity even, yeah, the correct thing.

Speaker 2 (55:58):
Yeah, and sometimes it's just stepping out of the dynamic.
It's like I don't know, like if you're like fighting
with your spouse and you're in the thick of it,
like sometimes just like stepping out and going for a
walk and like getting out of it for a second.
Then you come back and you're like, oh, wait, we
can actually talk about this.

Speaker 1 (56:13):
Now, like only if you slam the door on your
way out.

Speaker 2 (56:15):
Though, yes, one hundred percent loud noises unnecessary for dramatic.

Speaker 1 (56:21):
Accent to break something.

Speaker 2 (56:25):
But yeah, I think like such cool things happen, And
I'm seeing, especially amongst entrepreneurs, a big trend where like
a lot of them take a month off every year,
like it's just standard operating procedure now because then being
high performance just makes such a big difference.

Speaker 1 (56:43):
Yeah, I believe it. I'm really sul curious to see
how this impacts both of us on an individual level,
on a family level, and then also on a business
level when we come back. But also let's set expectations low.
That way, we don't come you don't come back. Disappointed Man, nothing, ha, No,
I think more of all of those metrics, the thing

(57:04):
I'm most excited about is the interpersonal thing, like like literally,
how am I going to change? Yeah? The business, sure,
which is tough to quantify that. Yeah, you like that,
Like that's what so I guess that's why I jokingly
said like, oh man, nothing happened. But it's like it's
really tough to hard egauge. How do you put that
in a spreadsheet? Like, you know, if you're speaking Matt language,
I'm like, how do I put that into numbers? I can't.

(57:25):
But there's something that I know to be true that
I know like at a bone deep sort of level. Yeah,
and that's we just need to be more attuned to
that kind of change as well.

Speaker 2 (57:37):
Yeah, it's one of the nice things doing those weekly
check ins in the book. I've got like some question
like sample questions you can run through. But it can
be really helpful for analytical people because you can measure
some of those things that are harder to measure, like
how am I sleeping? How well rested am I feeling?
How much time do I have to like think new thoughts,

(57:59):
like how much like mental clarity in my experience and
kind of check in with yourself on these things, and
then you'll see you can map out kind of that
progression in something it feels more tangible, like how how's
my communication with my spouse? Like how's my sex life
with my spouse? Like is that getting better? Like just
all these different things that you can kind of see. Actually,

(58:19):
we're making like stuff is changing, and I think many
retirements are mostly life changing because we're changed in the process,
Like we come out different. Therefore our life becomes different
because we're showing up in a new way.

Speaker 1 (58:33):
Yeah, that's so good. All right, the step four, I'm
going to tear into the to the worksheet, make sure
that I'm doing those weekly check ins. Jamia feeling you're
the best.

Speaker 2 (58:41):
We really appreciate you, so good to see you, chat
with you.

Speaker 1 (58:46):
And I want to go ahead and stop so that
we get the full upload. Okay, oh yeah, yeah,