January 23, 2025 • 28 mins
In the years before the Civil War, many enslaved people found freedom in Mexico, where slavery was abolished 36 years before the Emancipation Proclamation. In the first of a two-part series on Freedom Fighters, Eva and Maite explore the Southern route of the Underground Railroad and meet Silvia Webber, often referred to as the Harriet Tubman of Texas. They welcome Dr. Maria Hammack, a scholar and historian whose work bridges histories of liberation and abolition, Sofia Bravo and OJ and Leslie Treviño of the Webber Family Preservation Project to the show.
- Webber Family Preservation Project: http://wfpptx.org/projects.html#/
- Dr. María Esther Hammack: https://mariaestherhammack.me
- Texas Runaway Slave Project: https://digital.sfasu.edu/digital/collection/RSP
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Even I grew up in South Texas, but in school
we're never taught that the underground railroad had a southern
route that went through our own backyards. In this special
episode of Hungry for History, we'll learn about freedom fighters
in Mexico and in Texas, and we'll meet Sylvia Weber,
often referred to as the Harriet Tubman of the South,
along with her husband John. We'll welcome doctor Maria Hamac,
(00:22):
a scholar and historian whose work bridges histories of liberation
and abolition, as well as Sofia Brabo and OJ and
Leslie Trevigno of the Weber Family Preservation Project and ancestors
of Sylvia and John Webber. My name is Eva Longoria
and I am Mate remez Rajon and welcome to.
Speaker 2 (00:43):
Hungry for History, a podcast that explores our past and
present through food.
Speaker 1 (00:48):
On every episode, we'll talk about the history of some
of our favorite dishes, ingredients, and beverages.
Speaker 3 (00:54):
From our culture.
Speaker 2 (00:55):
So make yourself at home. E Wen Brocho, everybody, welcome
back to Hungary for History. We have a great episode today.
Speaker 1 (01:04):
Many people aren't aware of this, but Mexico abolished slavery
thirty six years before the United states before before before
by its second president after Independenceity Senterero. He was an
Afro Mestiso. No he yeah, yeah, he was the son
(01:27):
of a woman of African descent and a Mestiso. He
was president of Mexico and he abolished slavery. And so
after this time, after eighteen twenty nine, enslaved Africans from
the US were fleeing the south and finding freedom and
refuge in Mexico in the southern route of the underground railroad.
(01:50):
So this is something that I learned about recently. This
is not something that I mean, I took Texas history
for years in junior high in Ice well ever learned.
Speaker 2 (02:01):
Never learned about this this no, But also I knew
this because what I did searching for Mexico when we
were in Veracruz. That was the main port where a
lot of the slave ships came in and they built
this neighborhood from the wood of the boats that brought
them over like they're resilience.
Speaker 1 (02:20):
We visited that La Waca neighborhood in red ac Cruz,
which is incredible. But more enslaved people were brought to
Mexico then to the US, and at one point in
history there were more enslaved people in Mexico than in Brazil.
Between the conquest fifteen nineteen to eighteen twenty nine, when
slavery was abolished by Cinte Arero, was estimated that about
(02:41):
two hundred thousand slaved Africans were taken to New Spain.
Right what is now you know Mexico, But this abolition
played this really key role in the nation's early history.
Speaker 4 (02:53):
My name is Maria sar Hammock, and I am a
scholar of a Mexican scholar of like liberation in North America,
and I I'm trying to recover or help recover what
I argue is the experiences but also the legacies, the
intellectual and physical legacies of black women who engineered channels
(03:16):
of liberation to Mexican spaces. Part of the work that
I do is I argue that the first diaspora that
shaped Mexico was this first diaspora that came in from
African nations and people that were brought and slaved, and
how they started fighting for freedom as soon as they
arrived on Mexican soil. You start seeing individuals as Gasparajanga
(03:38):
who escaped and went to the mountains and took a
lot of people with him and started helping others to
get to the mountains. And it wasn't only until they
made a treaty with the people on the ground, with
the authorities to say okay, they needed assistance to fight
certain battles. So they said, okay, we can help you,
(04:00):
but just know you're going to have to recognize us
as free people. So we are free, we're no longer enslaved,
and if we do help you were going to you're
going to have to treat us as such. So I
do argue and the histories that I've read, and like
the documents that I have been able to access in
Mexican collections do show this process where people as soon
(04:22):
as they arrived, black women, men and children were fighting
to be free. So this is also engages the notion
of the freedom fighter. People didn't just arrived enslaved and
we're happy being enslaved. That never happened consistently. People were
escaping consistently, consistently, people were running in Mexican soil. So
(04:45):
by the eighteen hundred, so many people in Mexico who
had been enslaved had ran or escaped or maneuver ways
to be free. That by eighteen hundreds. So by eighteen
hundreds and eighteen ten and the Mexican independence movement began,
most people, most black Mexicans, were free. The number of
(05:10):
people with that remain enslaved was significantly lower by eighteen hundred.
So the history that I try to highlight that is
part of this first diaspora is this, when independence begins,
the independence movement begins in Mexico, you have a large
(05:30):
population of free black Mexicans or free black people that
live in Mexico.
Speaker 2 (05:35):
Because at this.
Speaker 4 (05:35):
Time in eighteen ten, when Girito the Lord has happened
and miguelid Algo rose up and morellos rose up, Mexico
was part of Spain, but it was still Mexican soil,
but it was under the Spanish crown, so it wasn't
necessarily the Republic of Mexico yet. But in this era,
the majority of people in Mexico were free, only a
(05:57):
small number remain enslaved. The people who are leading this
movement for independence, a lot of these individuals who are
fighting at the forefront for the insurgent movement, which is
for freedom for Mexico and independent Mexico from Spain were
black Mexicans, people who were either born enslaved themselves or
(06:18):
whose parents had been born enslaved, or whose grandparents had
been born enslaved. So they had a vested interest to
fight for freedom, for freedom against the Spanish rule, right,
but also to say, okay, we're fighting for the freedom
of this new nation, whatever that will be. But also
we want to make sure that if we're fighting for
(06:38):
freedom for this nation, we want to make sure that
this nation has freedom for our children. So we want
to make sure that our children are going to be
free in this new nation we're fighting for. And so
these are the individuals who start fighting to make sure
that the slavery is fully abolished. And some of the
leaders that come up with this movement is Vicente Guerero
(07:01):
is our first Afro Mexican president, who was the one
who decreed the abolition of slavery in eighteen twenty nine.
His grandparents were born enslaved and so he had a
vested interest. And so that goes to show that people
who were fighting for the independence of Mexico had backgrounds
(07:24):
and had vested interest. So they had black roots and
so they were vested in the ideas of freedom and
you know, personal freedom, and that's what shaped Mexican abolitionist
processes as early as Mexico secured independence from Spain, which
was eighteen twenty one. So abolition was always at the
(07:44):
forefront because these black Mexican leaders as well. It also
indigenous after indigenous and indigenous people, they were at the
forefront of this movement. So I argue that this is
the first diaspora that shaped Mexico because a lot of
the times when we talk about Mexico and what Mexicans are,
we don't consider that Mexico has black roots or that
(08:07):
Mexicans have black roots. But most of the leaders who
fought for independence were black, or Afro indigenous or Afro mestizo.
So the roots are there and the records don't lie.
Speaker 2 (08:18):
Right.
Speaker 1 (08:21):
When we come back, we'll talk about Sylvia Weber, the
Harriet Tubman of Texas and speak with some of her ancestors.
Speaker 2 (08:27):
That's after the break, stay with us. Who was Sylvia Weber?
Was she at Texan?
Speaker 1 (08:39):
Now Sylvia Weber is fascinating, right, So where there's oppression,
there's a fight for freedom, whether it's Mexico, whether it's
the US, or wherever it is. There's a president, there's freedom,
and a lot of women led the liberation process. Harriet Tubman,
of course, is the one that most people in the
States are familiar with. But Sylvia Weber was one of
(08:59):
these women who helped enslaved people cross to Mexico. She
was born in Spanish Florida. From Florida, she was taken
to what is now Austin. So she came to Texas's
property of John Crier when she was nineteen, and there
she met a man named John Weber, who was a
(09:20):
white business partner of John Criers. So they fell in
love while still enslaved. She gave birth to three children,
and then eventually she gained her freedom papers and she
and John could not legally marry in Texas. But actually
there was one person that with them. He was a
(09:40):
Catholic priest named Father Muldan, so he married them. And
imagine this eighteen hundreds, eighteen thirties, an inter racial couple
inandace scandalous, It's crazy. So she was described as intelligent
and kind and welcoming. She was known for her good deeds,
(10:02):
for her charity work. Her house was always open, you know,
to anyone, and you know, human being was ever sent away,
and nobody left their home, you know, hungry.
Speaker 2 (10:12):
They ended up getting a little tired of the discrimination
in Central Texas and they moved to the Rio Grand Valley,
which is near the US Mexico border, and their ranch,
which was called the Weber Ranch, was a stop in
the underground railroad. Like I wish I knew this history, right,
They helped I know, this is so fascinating. They helped
fugitives find you know, safe haven in Mexico because again
(10:35):
Mexico abolished slavery. They built it ferry landing and licensed
a ferry stop that led directly from their home on
the Rio Grand to Mexico. And she was just the
staunch anti slavery advocate through the Civil War, and you know,
her and her family stood against the Confederacy, who, by
the way, persecuted them for being Union sympathizers. And then
(10:57):
they eventually fled to Mexico in the eighteen sixties to
escape the Confederacy and they did not return until eighteen
eighty two, and then John died soon after that.
Speaker 1 (11:08):
They went through our backyards and we spoke with some
of their ancestors, and they didn't even know that they
were ancestors of this woman. So it's this part of
history that's just kept such hush hush for soul along.
It makes me so angry and I'm so cheated that
I was not taught this in Texas history and that
it's not taught in the in the US. But so
(11:29):
there were not a lot of written records, like they
couldn't say, oh, so and so a person is going
to cross and so and so in person's because it
was dangerous. But people like John Ford known as rip Ford,
this Confederate colonel and Texas ranger during the Civil War.
He wrote about them like, oh damn it, this is
Sylvia and John Webber. He went out of his way
to make their lives hell.
Speaker 2 (11:51):
That's first of all, none of this is in Texas
history books. And also kind of the false narrative of
the Alamo. This is such a I think, a monument
of freedom, but in reality it's the opposite. Because Texas
was was Mexico and slavery had already been abolished, and
(12:12):
the white settlers in Texas knew that if they wanted
their economy to grow, which was the three c's cotton, copper,
and cattle, they were going to need enslave labor, so
they refused to assimilate to Mexico and this resulted in
Texas revolting against Mexico. But we're taught like a remember
(12:33):
the Alamo, it's a monument to freedom. But in reality
it was a country defending its values, which was do
not enslaved people. You know, speak the language, by the way.
That was one of the requisites was speak Spanish. Nobody
they refused to learn Spanish, and they said be Catholic,
by the way. That was one of them. And these
were wasp white Anglo Saxons, and they were like, we're
(12:55):
not gonna be Catholic, We're not gonna speak Spanish, and
we're going to keep our slaves. And so part of this,
you know, rebranding meant erasing important figures in Texas and
South Texas well. We sat down with Leslie Dutcher Trevigno,
president of the Weber Family Preservation Project and wife of
Oj Trevigno, a descendant of the Webers.
Speaker 3 (13:17):
The Webers were pretty well known. I mean, there's a
town called Weberville outside of Travis, Like it's in Travis County,
sixteen miles south of Boston, and they were well known
to have helped people, and that's actually in several different accounts,
given they were union sympathizers. In fact, so much so
(13:40):
that four during the Civil War went out of his
way to find them and arrest them in the Rio
Grand where they were living in Texas at that time
after they moved, and they stuck in his cross so
badly that they're actually mentioned by name in his very
long winded autobiography that he wrote. And so it is there.
(14:02):
It's just been very intentionally kind of washed over to
make it go away, because Texas has done a master
job of rebranding itself in terms of cowboys, trills, drives, rodeos,
that kind of thing, to erase its history that is
so entrenched in slavery. That's what this economy Texas was
(14:26):
built on. That economy, and Austin said Texas must be
a slave country, and so that was the very foundation
of it. And the Webers are there and they're mentioned.
It's just, like I said, been very overlooked intentionally, even
so much so that descendants weren't aware of their own ancestry. Sadly,
(14:48):
as things keep going the way they are, I think
it might stay that way. If you know, the powers
that be have their way.
Speaker 5 (14:54):
I'm a fifth generation descendant from so In John Webber
and also the secretary of the Weber Family Preservation Project.
Sylvia was brought into Texas through her enslaver and then
John also came down through Texas because he was a
(15:16):
big tobacco smuggler, all right, so he kind of was
working his way south and that was just kind of
part of his route and what he was doing, and
settled into Texas, and then I believe we have documented
somewhere around eighteen twenty nine, I think is somewhere where
we kind of estimate that John and Sylvia met and
(15:37):
kind of started their relationship and started having children, you know,
right around that time, you know a little bit after that,
while she was still enslaved, right, they had three children
while she was still enslaved by John Cryer. And this was,
like I said, between eighteen twenty nine and eighteen thirty four,
(15:58):
and then in eighteen thirty four, June eleventh, eighteen thirty
four is when they secured her freedom from John Cryer.
And that's where those were the freedom papers that Maria
found when she was working on her you know, doctor
thesis at the University of Texas. And I mean, that's
(16:18):
that was an amazing find because that has really helped
us find so much more and open the door for
us finding that information into where we are, you know today,
because there's kind of so much in there that you
can read, you know, in those papers, you know, the
the ask you know, for for her freedom and that
of her three children at the time were two other
(16:42):
children under the age of three, a male and a
female under the age of three was the ask. Now
inside of those papers, what they worked in was if
they did not pay in children or in life or life,
then they had their land up for collateral right. And
by that time they had already established their Weberville land,
(17:05):
which at that time was called Weber's Prairie. But they
had already established that land, and that was somewhere in
the three thousand and five thousand acres somewhere that in
that range. So it was quite a bit of land
that they put up for collateral right. And that's kind
of what we knew for a little while. And then
(17:27):
again Maria through her work found papers where John Weber
forfeited the land to John Cryer as part of this
agreement and fulfilling these freedom papers. After that, you know,
that's you know again eighteen thirty four, right. Then they
(17:50):
were in Weberville until eighteen fifty, which is when they
signed over those that land over to Crier. They you know,
from eighteen thirty four eighteen fifty, they were in there.
They got a tutor, they were tutoring their children. They
ended up having another eight nine children. I think they
(18:12):
had thirteen untilal twelve survived to adulthood, so you know,
they had several children, you know, after that between eighteen
thirty four and eighteen fifty and they got kicked out
of their own town because as more white settlers coming
in and realizing, you know, this is an interracial couple.
They are tutoring their children exactly right, and you know,
(18:35):
how dare they you know, even want to educate their children, right,
And so educating the children, the tutor started receiving death threats,
you know, I mean, it was just you know, not
good conditions. So they started making their way down to
the valley and settled in Donna, Texas in eighteen fifty
three is where they settled and purchased I think again
(18:58):
over eight thousand acres of land and a big portion
that had and it was again right along the river
banks there in the real Grande Leslie has researched and
the doctor Hammock of research is that the knowledge that
Sylvia had and brought right from her time of being
(19:19):
enslaved and having to work with you know, flat bottom
boats and stuff like that, that was the education that
she used and the knowledge that she used, you know,
across the river to help you know, free enslave people.
Speaker 1 (19:34):
And he talks about this one drop rule, like, did
you know about this one drop rule?
Speaker 2 (19:39):
That's what this role was about, was this huge discrimination
in the twentieth century because they said, you know, a
single drop of black blood makes a person black.
Speaker 1 (19:47):
Yeah, and this is why a lot of people like
oj Devigno and Sophia Bravo, another ancestor of the Webers
that we spoke about, they didn't know about this because oh,
if there's one drop rule, so it would be dangerous.
They decided to then just keep it quiet. Oh you're
part black and you're park Mexican like this is it
was just it was just too much, so they just
kept this history quiet. So there were so many freedom
(20:09):
fighters and we can't mention them. All and also even
if we wanted to, so many of them will never
know by name. But it's also I think really interesting
to note that the Webers lived near Matilda and Nathaniel Jackson,
another interracial couple also in the Rio Grande Valley that
(20:30):
were known to help fugitive slaves and asylum seekers.
Speaker 2 (20:33):
Well, just last year, the Jackson Ranch near the banks
of the Rio Grande in present day Hidalgo County was
recognized by the National Park Service as a historical significant
part of its Underground Railroad Network to Freedom program. That's
pretty cool. So as part of the journey, many who
(20:59):
traveled South to Freedom like that left the United States
and went into Mexico. They carried with them food that
they could use to barter or trade with with the
indigenous people or the Mexican people along the way for
safe passage. And this included bacon, corn meal, and peaches.
I don't know there was peach trees in Texas.
Speaker 1 (21:18):
Trees, Yeah, peach trees were introduced to Florida by Spaniards
in the mid fifteen hundreds. So actually, if we go
way way back, peaches are originally from China, but they
were brought over like so many other things. They were
brought over. They became a staple across the South by
the seventeenth century, and in Texas they were abundant in
(21:40):
the mid eighteen hundreds, and Sylvia Weber and her family
were known to have sold peaches for sustenance.
Speaker 2 (21:46):
Peach leaves were also used medicinally to help heal wounds,
and they have anti microbial properties. And also, you know,
we know canning food obviously prolongs it. And we've talked
about the history of of canning, but canned foods were
instrumental to slaves escaping to the South via the underground railroad,
(22:08):
because then they could have more to eat.
Speaker 6 (22:10):
They would do a lot of canning. They used to
process a lot of Canyon used to have can They
used to can all the tomatoes and onions and cabbages.
And because that's the way we would grow around that ranch,
around those farms, and they would can them and they
would put them away and when people come along, you know,
that's what they would give them. You know, they would
(22:31):
come and it was yeah, because canyon was I mean
it was I was even part of that. They used
to make us go good, go and wash the jars
and my grandma. They used to beat an assembly line
of people just cannying those vegetables and putting them away.
And I would tell Grandma, why do you want so many?
And she's like, you don't ask that, just go wash
(22:51):
the jar. And we're like, okay, yes, but it was
part of our life. You would can, and they would can,
and they would can. I mean they would. They would
spend cannying and canyon for you know, for what I
do not know that we were not allowed to ask.
My name is Sophia Brabo and I am the vice
president of the nonprofit that we have that we're still
(23:12):
preserving the Weber family. I am a direct descendant of
the Weber I'm the caretaker of that Weber cemetery where
all our relatives are buried. And I'm the one that
if you want a tour, or you want any information,
or you want to go visit, I'm the one that
you get a hold of. And I'll be more than
glad to go take you out there. I do it
(23:34):
to whoever asked.
Speaker 3 (23:35):
I'll go.
Speaker 6 (23:36):
You know, I will find time, I will schedule time,
and you know you're I will be more than glad
to tour you to that cemetery. My grandma was the
one that everybody used to go visit, even oh, mom,
Mom used to go visit, and his grandparents used to
go visit my grandmother because she was like an elder.
And you would hear those stories, oh you know this
(23:59):
and that. But you were not allowed to even claim
that you were part of the black community. You know,
there was a very hush hush situation. Because of that situe,
you know, I guess it were scared that if you
were part of the well, they were Webers. Of course,
my grandmother was Marcella Weber. But they would never say
(24:19):
what why there were Webers or why, you know, they
would just claim John, John Webber, you know John. But
Sylvia was always left behind because Sylvia was the one
there was an African American. But everybody, well, I'm related
to John. John was a white boy. He was a
white man. So everybody, oh, yeah, I'm white, you know,
because of John. But they never said poor Sylvia was
(24:41):
always left to one side.
Speaker 3 (24:43):
You know.
Speaker 6 (24:43):
Oh my god, you are not allowed to say you
are black, especially in South Texas, South Texas, you were
not allowed.
Speaker 1 (24:50):
Endless histories and culinary traditions have been passed down through generations,
but many names were never recorded. Thankfully, people like doctor
Marie Hamac searching for these stories and sharing them with
the world. One such story is about a woman who
may have started the butter industry in northern Mexico. Here
is doctor Hamak sharing this story.
Speaker 4 (25:12):
We don't know her name. I have been looking for
several years in the Mexican archives to try to find
her name. I haven't been that lucky, but I've been
able to retrace some of her journey, like to Situarya,
where she was from in Mississippi, and then I don't
know how she made it to Mexico, but when she
(25:33):
was in Mexican what she was doing. And there's accounts
that talk about how she was the only person in
the market in again in mont Cloba, in the open
market that was selling butter and people were like wow,
like we've never had butter. This butter is delicious.
Speaker 3 (25:50):
What is you know?
Speaker 4 (25:51):
And people stop and like this is delicious, and any
other she was also selling other dairy products, but tracing
that story, it was like, Okay, where she had been born,
they made butter as well. It was the enslay people
that were forced to make the butter, and so she had,
you know, she knew how to make it, and so
it was only logical if she, however, she made it
(26:14):
to northern Mexico that she knew she could make a
living there by introducing this with everybody else was using lard,
and there were people that were only the upper classes
had butter like in other places, but not necessarily butter.
They had other types, but lard was deep thing that
(26:38):
was used. And I tried, I did do my due
diligence to ask other scholars who work on food history
if they knew anything about battery in Mexico. And really
nobody has done an in depth study on who introduced
better in Mexico. And I believe that it was this
black woman from Mississippi who was free being free in
(27:00):
northern Mexico in the eighteen thirties. Butter was being made
also on the other side in Texas as early as
eighteen twenty eight by the enslaved that were brought by
the Stephen Austin colonists.
Speaker 7 (27:15):
And so there's a lot that points to the fact
that she may have been the first woman to introduce
butter and butter businesses into northern Mexico.
Speaker 1 (27:29):
The best things in life, freedom and butter. A huge
thanks to our special guest, doctor Maria Hamac sofia A
Bravo and OJ and Leslie Trevigno for sharing their time,
their family histories, and their expertise. You can find links
to their work and the episode description. Next week, we'll
continue exploring the southern route of the Underground Railroad through
(27:52):
a unique cookbook and Juneteenth, which has been celebrated in
a community in northern Mexico since the nineteenth century. Well
welcome doctor Hamak back to the show along with Windy
Goodlow and Corinata of the Seminole Indian Scouts Cemetery Association.
Speaker 2 (28:07):
Please join us as always, thank you for listening and
joining us today.
Speaker 1 (28:12):
If you have any dishes or foods you want to
hear about on this show, send us a message. Bye everyone.
Speaker 2 (28:19):
Hungary for History is a Hyphenit media production in partnership
with Iheart's Michael Bura podcast network.
Speaker 1 (28:25):
For more of your favorite shows, visit the iHeartRadio app,
Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
Even I grew up in South Texas, but in school
we're never taught that the underground railroad had a southern
route that went through our own backyards. In this special
episode of Hungry for History, we'll learn about freedom fighters
in Mexico and in Texas, and we'll meet Sylvia Weber,
often referred to as the Harriet Tubman of the South,
along with her husband John. We'll welcome doctor Maria Hamac,
(00:22):
a scholar and historian whose work bridges histories of liberation
and abolition, as well as Sofia Brabo and OJ and
Leslie Trevigno of the Weber Family Preservation Project and ancestors
of Sylvia and John Webber. My name is Eva Longoria
and I am Mate remez Rajon and welcome to.
Speaker 2 (00:43):
Hungry for History, a podcast that explores our past and
present through food.
Speaker 1 (00:48):
On every episode, we'll talk about the history of some
of our favorite dishes, ingredients, and beverages.
Speaker 3 (00:54):
From our culture.
Speaker 2 (00:55):
So make yourself at home. E Wen Brocho, everybody, welcome
back to Hungary for History. We have a great episode today.
Speaker 1 (01:04):
Many people aren't aware of this, but Mexico abolished slavery
thirty six years before the United states before before before
by its second president after Independenceity Senterero. He was an
Afro Mestiso. No he yeah, yeah, he was the son
(01:27):
of a woman of African descent and a Mestiso. He
was president of Mexico and he abolished slavery. And so
after this time, after eighteen twenty nine, enslaved Africans from
the US were fleeing the south and finding freedom and
refuge in Mexico in the southern route of the underground railroad.
(01:50):
So this is something that I learned about recently. This
is not something that I mean, I took Texas history
for years in junior high in Ice well ever learned.
Speaker 2 (02:01):
Never learned about this this no, But also I knew
this because what I did searching for Mexico when we
were in Veracruz. That was the main port where a
lot of the slave ships came in and they built
this neighborhood from the wood of the boats that brought
them over like they're resilience.
Speaker 1 (02:20):
We visited that La Waca neighborhood in red ac Cruz,
which is incredible. But more enslaved people were brought to
Mexico then to the US, and at one point in
history there were more enslaved people in Mexico than in Brazil.
Between the conquest fifteen nineteen to eighteen twenty nine, when
slavery was abolished by Cinte Arero, was estimated that about
(02:41):
two hundred thousand slaved Africans were taken to New Spain.
Right what is now you know Mexico, But this abolition
played this really key role in the nation's early history.
Speaker 4 (02:53):
My name is Maria sar Hammock, and I am a
scholar of a Mexican scholar of like liberation in North America,
and I I'm trying to recover or help recover what
I argue is the experiences but also the legacies, the
intellectual and physical legacies of black women who engineered channels
(03:16):
of liberation to Mexican spaces. Part of the work that
I do is I argue that the first diaspora that
shaped Mexico was this first diaspora that came in from
African nations and people that were brought and slaved, and
how they started fighting for freedom as soon as they
arrived on Mexican soil. You start seeing individuals as Gasparajanga
(03:38):
who escaped and went to the mountains and took a
lot of people with him and started helping others to
get to the mountains. And it wasn't only until they
made a treaty with the people on the ground, with
the authorities to say okay, they needed assistance to fight
certain battles. So they said, okay, we can help you,
(04:00):
but just know you're going to have to recognize us
as free people. So we are free, we're no longer enslaved,
and if we do help you were going to you're
going to have to treat us as such. So I
do argue and the histories that I've read, and like
the documents that I have been able to access in
Mexican collections do show this process where people as soon
(04:22):
as they arrived, black women, men and children were fighting
to be free. So this is also engages the notion
of the freedom fighter. People didn't just arrived enslaved and
we're happy being enslaved. That never happened consistently. People were
escaping consistently, consistently, people were running in Mexican soil. So
(04:45):
by the eighteen hundred, so many people in Mexico who
had been enslaved had ran or escaped or maneuver ways
to be free. That by eighteen hundreds. So by eighteen
hundreds and eighteen ten and the Mexican independence movement began,
most people, most black Mexicans, were free. The number of
(05:10):
people with that remain enslaved was significantly lower by eighteen hundred.
So the history that I try to highlight that is
part of this first diaspora is this, when independence begins,
the independence movement begins in Mexico, you have a large
(05:30):
population of free black Mexicans or free black people that
live in Mexico.
Speaker 2 (05:35):
Because at this.
Speaker 4 (05:35):
Time in eighteen ten, when Girito the Lord has happened
and miguelid Algo rose up and morellos rose up, Mexico
was part of Spain, but it was still Mexican soil,
but it was under the Spanish crown, so it wasn't
necessarily the Republic of Mexico yet. But in this era,
the majority of people in Mexico were free, only a
(05:57):
small number remain enslaved. The people who are leading this
movement for independence, a lot of these individuals who are
fighting at the forefront for the insurgent movement, which is
for freedom for Mexico and independent Mexico from Spain were
black Mexicans, people who were either born enslaved themselves or
(06:18):
whose parents had been born enslaved, or whose grandparents had
been born enslaved. So they had a vested interest to
fight for freedom, for freedom against the Spanish rule, right,
but also to say, okay, we're fighting for the freedom
of this new nation, whatever that will be. But also
we want to make sure that if we're fighting for
(06:38):
freedom for this nation, we want to make sure that
this nation has freedom for our children. So we want
to make sure that our children are going to be
free in this new nation we're fighting for. And so
these are the individuals who start fighting to make sure
that the slavery is fully abolished. And some of the
leaders that come up with this movement is Vicente Guerero
(07:01):
is our first Afro Mexican president, who was the one
who decreed the abolition of slavery in eighteen twenty nine.
His grandparents were born enslaved and so he had a
vested interest. And so that goes to show that people
who were fighting for the independence of Mexico had backgrounds
(07:24):
and had vested interest. So they had black roots and
so they were vested in the ideas of freedom and
you know, personal freedom, and that's what shaped Mexican abolitionist
processes as early as Mexico secured independence from Spain, which
was eighteen twenty one. So abolition was always at the
(07:44):
forefront because these black Mexican leaders as well. It also
indigenous after indigenous and indigenous people, they were at the
forefront of this movement. So I argue that this is
the first diaspora that shaped Mexico because a lot of
the times when we talk about Mexico and what Mexicans are,
we don't consider that Mexico has black roots or that
(08:07):
Mexicans have black roots. But most of the leaders who
fought for independence were black, or Afro indigenous or Afro mestizo.
So the roots are there and the records don't lie.
Speaker 2 (08:18):
Right.
Speaker 1 (08:21):
When we come back, we'll talk about Sylvia Weber, the
Harriet Tubman of Texas and speak with some of her ancestors.
Speaker 2 (08:27):
That's after the break, stay with us. Who was Sylvia Weber?
Was she at Texan?
Speaker 1 (08:39):
Now Sylvia Weber is fascinating, right, So where there's oppression,
there's a fight for freedom, whether it's Mexico, whether it's
the US, or wherever it is. There's a president, there's freedom,
and a lot of women led the liberation process. Harriet Tubman,
of course, is the one that most people in the
States are familiar with. But Sylvia Weber was one of
(08:59):
these women who helped enslaved people cross to Mexico. She
was born in Spanish Florida. From Florida, she was taken
to what is now Austin. So she came to Texas's
property of John Crier when she was nineteen, and there
she met a man named John Weber, who was a
(09:20):
white business partner of John Criers. So they fell in
love while still enslaved. She gave birth to three children,
and then eventually she gained her freedom papers and she
and John could not legally marry in Texas. But actually
there was one person that with them. He was a
(09:40):
Catholic priest named Father Muldan, so he married them. And
imagine this eighteen hundreds, eighteen thirties, an inter racial couple
inandace scandalous, It's crazy. So she was described as intelligent
and kind and welcoming. She was known for her good deeds,
(10:02):
for her charity work. Her house was always open, you know,
to anyone, and you know, human being was ever sent away,
and nobody left their home, you know, hungry.
Speaker 2 (10:12):
They ended up getting a little tired of the discrimination
in Central Texas and they moved to the Rio Grand Valley,
which is near the US Mexico border, and their ranch,
which was called the Weber Ranch, was a stop in
the underground railroad. Like I wish I knew this history, right,
They helped I know, this is so fascinating. They helped
fugitives find you know, safe haven in Mexico because again
(10:35):
Mexico abolished slavery. They built it ferry landing and licensed
a ferry stop that led directly from their home on
the Rio Grand to Mexico. And she was just the
staunch anti slavery advocate through the Civil War, and you know,
her and her family stood against the Confederacy, who, by
the way, persecuted them for being Union sympathizers. And then
(10:57):
they eventually fled to Mexico in the eighteen sixties to
escape the Confederacy and they did not return until eighteen
eighty two, and then John died soon after that.
Speaker 1 (11:08):
They went through our backyards and we spoke with some
of their ancestors, and they didn't even know that they
were ancestors of this woman. So it's this part of
history that's just kept such hush hush for soul along.
It makes me so angry and I'm so cheated that
I was not taught this in Texas history and that
it's not taught in the in the US. But so
(11:29):
there were not a lot of written records, like they
couldn't say, oh, so and so a person is going
to cross and so and so in person's because it
was dangerous. But people like John Ford known as rip Ford,
this Confederate colonel and Texas ranger during the Civil War.
He wrote about them like, oh damn it, this is
Sylvia and John Webber. He went out of his way
to make their lives hell.
Speaker 2 (11:51):
That's first of all, none of this is in Texas
history books. And also kind of the false narrative of
the Alamo. This is such a I think, a monument
of freedom, but in reality it's the opposite. Because Texas
was was Mexico and slavery had already been abolished, and
(12:12):
the white settlers in Texas knew that if they wanted
their economy to grow, which was the three c's cotton, copper,
and cattle, they were going to need enslave labor, so
they refused to assimilate to Mexico and this resulted in
Texas revolting against Mexico. But we're taught like a remember
(12:33):
the Alamo, it's a monument to freedom. But in reality
it was a country defending its values, which was do
not enslaved people. You know, speak the language, by the way.
That was one of the requisites was speak Spanish. Nobody
they refused to learn Spanish, and they said be Catholic,
by the way. That was one of them. And these
were wasp white Anglo Saxons, and they were like, we're
(12:55):
not gonna be Catholic, We're not gonna speak Spanish, and
we're going to keep our slaves. And so part of this,
you know, rebranding meant erasing important figures in Texas and
South Texas well. We sat down with Leslie Dutcher Trevigno,
president of the Weber Family Preservation Project and wife of
Oj Trevigno, a descendant of the Webers.
Speaker 3 (13:17):
The Webers were pretty well known. I mean, there's a
town called Weberville outside of Travis, Like it's in Travis County,
sixteen miles south of Boston, and they were well known
to have helped people, and that's actually in several different accounts,
given they were union sympathizers. In fact, so much so
(13:40):
that four during the Civil War went out of his
way to find them and arrest them in the Rio
Grand where they were living in Texas at that time
after they moved, and they stuck in his cross so
badly that they're actually mentioned by name in his very
long winded autobiography that he wrote. And so it is there.
(14:02):
It's just been very intentionally kind of washed over to
make it go away, because Texas has done a master
job of rebranding itself in terms of cowboys, trills, drives, rodeos,
that kind of thing, to erase its history that is
so entrenched in slavery. That's what this economy Texas was
(14:26):
built on. That economy, and Austin said Texas must be
a slave country, and so that was the very foundation
of it. And the Webers are there and they're mentioned.
It's just, like I said, been very overlooked intentionally, even
so much so that descendants weren't aware of their own ancestry. Sadly,
(14:48):
as things keep going the way they are, I think
it might stay that way. If you know, the powers
that be have their way.
Speaker 5 (14:54):
I'm a fifth generation descendant from so In John Webber
and also the secretary of the Weber Family Preservation Project.
Sylvia was brought into Texas through her enslaver and then
John also came down through Texas because he was a
(15:16):
big tobacco smuggler, all right, so he kind of was
working his way south and that was just kind of
part of his route and what he was doing, and
settled into Texas, and then I believe we have documented
somewhere around eighteen twenty nine, I think is somewhere where
we kind of estimate that John and Sylvia met and
(15:37):
kind of started their relationship and started having children, you know,
right around that time, you know a little bit after that,
while she was still enslaved, right, they had three children
while she was still enslaved by John Cryer. And this was,
like I said, between eighteen twenty nine and eighteen thirty four,
(15:58):
and then in eighteen thirty four, June eleventh, eighteen thirty
four is when they secured her freedom from John Cryer.
And that's where those were the freedom papers that Maria
found when she was working on her you know, doctor
thesis at the University of Texas. And I mean, that's
(16:18):
that was an amazing find because that has really helped
us find so much more and open the door for
us finding that information into where we are, you know today,
because there's kind of so much in there that you
can read, you know, in those papers, you know, the
the ask you know, for for her freedom and that
of her three children at the time were two other
(16:42):
children under the age of three, a male and a
female under the age of three was the ask. Now
inside of those papers, what they worked in was if
they did not pay in children or in life or life,
then they had their land up for collateral right. And
by that time they had already established their Weberville land,
(17:05):
which at that time was called Weber's Prairie. But they
had already established that land, and that was somewhere in
the three thousand and five thousand acres somewhere that in
that range. So it was quite a bit of land
that they put up for collateral right. And that's kind
of what we knew for a little while. And then
(17:27):
again Maria through her work found papers where John Weber
forfeited the land to John Cryer as part of this
agreement and fulfilling these freedom papers. After that, you know,
that's you know again eighteen thirty four, right. Then they
(17:50):
were in Weberville until eighteen fifty, which is when they
signed over those that land over to Crier. They you know,
from eighteen thirty four eighteen fifty, they were in there.
They got a tutor, they were tutoring their children. They
ended up having another eight nine children. I think they
(18:12):
had thirteen untilal twelve survived to adulthood, so you know,
they had several children, you know, after that between eighteen
thirty four and eighteen fifty and they got kicked out
of their own town because as more white settlers coming
in and realizing, you know, this is an interracial couple.
They are tutoring their children exactly right, and you know,
(18:35):
how dare they you know, even want to educate their children, right,
And so educating the children, the tutor started receiving death threats,
you know, I mean, it was just you know, not
good conditions. So they started making their way down to
the valley and settled in Donna, Texas in eighteen fifty
three is where they settled and purchased I think again
(18:58):
over eight thousand acres of land and a big portion
that had and it was again right along the river
banks there in the real Grande Leslie has researched and
the doctor Hammock of research is that the knowledge that
Sylvia had and brought right from her time of being
(19:19):
enslaved and having to work with you know, flat bottom
boats and stuff like that, that was the education that
she used and the knowledge that she used, you know,
across the river to help you know, free enslave people.
Speaker 1 (19:34):
And he talks about this one drop rule, like, did
you know about this one drop rule?
Speaker 2 (19:39):
That's what this role was about, was this huge discrimination
in the twentieth century because they said, you know, a
single drop of black blood makes a person black.
Speaker 1 (19:47):
Yeah, and this is why a lot of people like
oj Devigno and Sophia Bravo, another ancestor of the Webers
that we spoke about, they didn't know about this because oh,
if there's one drop rule, so it would be dangerous.
They decided to then just keep it quiet. Oh you're
part black and you're park Mexican like this is it
was just it was just too much, so they just
kept this history quiet. So there were so many freedom
(20:09):
fighters and we can't mention them. All and also even
if we wanted to, so many of them will never
know by name. But it's also I think really interesting
to note that the Webers lived near Matilda and Nathaniel Jackson,
another interracial couple also in the Rio Grande Valley that
(20:30):
were known to help fugitive slaves and asylum seekers.
Speaker 2 (20:33):
Well, just last year, the Jackson Ranch near the banks
of the Rio Grande in present day Hidalgo County was
recognized by the National Park Service as a historical significant
part of its Underground Railroad Network to Freedom program. That's
pretty cool. So as part of the journey, many who
(20:59):
traveled South to Freedom like that left the United States
and went into Mexico. They carried with them food that
they could use to barter or trade with with the
indigenous people or the Mexican people along the way for
safe passage. And this included bacon, corn meal, and peaches.
I don't know there was peach trees in Texas.
Speaker 1 (21:18):
Trees, Yeah, peach trees were introduced to Florida by Spaniards
in the mid fifteen hundreds. So actually, if we go
way way back, peaches are originally from China, but they
were brought over like so many other things. They were
brought over. They became a staple across the South by
the seventeenth century, and in Texas they were abundant in
(21:40):
the mid eighteen hundreds, and Sylvia Weber and her family
were known to have sold peaches for sustenance.
Speaker 2 (21:46):
Peach leaves were also used medicinally to help heal wounds,
and they have anti microbial properties. And also, you know,
we know canning food obviously prolongs it. And we've talked
about the history of of canning, but canned foods were
instrumental to slaves escaping to the South via the underground railroad,
(22:08):
because then they could have more to eat.
Speaker 6 (22:10):
They would do a lot of canning. They used to
process a lot of Canyon used to have can They
used to can all the tomatoes and onions and cabbages.
And because that's the way we would grow around that ranch,
around those farms, and they would can them and they
would put them away and when people come along, you know,
that's what they would give them. You know, they would
(22:31):
come and it was yeah, because canyon was I mean
it was I was even part of that. They used
to make us go good, go and wash the jars
and my grandma. They used to beat an assembly line
of people just cannying those vegetables and putting them away.
And I would tell Grandma, why do you want so many?
And she's like, you don't ask that, just go wash
(22:51):
the jar. And we're like, okay, yes, but it was
part of our life. You would can, and they would can,
and they would can. I mean they would. They would
spend cannying and canyon for you know, for what I
do not know that we were not allowed to ask.
My name is Sophia Brabo and I am the vice
president of the nonprofit that we have that we're still
(23:12):
preserving the Weber family. I am a direct descendant of
the Weber I'm the caretaker of that Weber cemetery where
all our relatives are buried. And I'm the one that
if you want a tour, or you want any information,
or you want to go visit, I'm the one that
you get a hold of. And I'll be more than
glad to go take you out there. I do it
(23:34):
to whoever asked.
Speaker 3 (23:35):
I'll go.
Speaker 6 (23:36):
You know, I will find time, I will schedule time,
and you know you're I will be more than glad
to tour you to that cemetery. My grandma was the
one that everybody used to go visit, even oh, mom,
Mom used to go visit, and his grandparents used to
go visit my grandmother because she was like an elder.
And you would hear those stories, oh you know this
(23:59):
and that. But you were not allowed to even claim
that you were part of the black community. You know,
there was a very hush hush situation. Because of that situe,
you know, I guess it were scared that if you
were part of the well, they were Webers. Of course,
my grandmother was Marcella Weber. But they would never say
(24:19):
what why there were Webers or why, you know, they
would just claim John, John Webber, you know John. But
Sylvia was always left behind because Sylvia was the one
there was an African American. But everybody, well, I'm related
to John. John was a white boy. He was a
white man. So everybody, oh, yeah, I'm white, you know,
because of John. But they never said poor Sylvia was
(24:41):
always left to one side.
Speaker 3 (24:43):
You know.
Speaker 6 (24:43):
Oh my god, you are not allowed to say you
are black, especially in South Texas, South Texas, you were
not allowed.
Speaker 1 (24:50):
Endless histories and culinary traditions have been passed down through generations,
but many names were never recorded. Thankfully, people like doctor
Marie Hamac searching for these stories and sharing them with
the world. One such story is about a woman who
may have started the butter industry in northern Mexico. Here
is doctor Hamak sharing this story.
Speaker 4 (25:12):
We don't know her name. I have been looking for
several years in the Mexican archives to try to find
her name. I haven't been that lucky, but I've been
able to retrace some of her journey, like to Situarya,
where she was from in Mississippi, and then I don't
know how she made it to Mexico, but when she
(25:33):
was in Mexican what she was doing. And there's accounts
that talk about how she was the only person in
the market in again in mont Cloba, in the open
market that was selling butter and people were like wow,
like we've never had butter. This butter is delicious.
Speaker 3 (25:50):
What is you know?
Speaker 4 (25:51):
And people stop and like this is delicious, and any
other she was also selling other dairy products, but tracing
that story, it was like, Okay, where she had been born,
they made butter as well. It was the enslay people
that were forced to make the butter, and so she had,
you know, she knew how to make it, and so
it was only logical if she, however, she made it
(26:14):
to northern Mexico that she knew she could make a
living there by introducing this with everybody else was using lard,
and there were people that were only the upper classes
had butter like in other places, but not necessarily butter.
They had other types, but lard was deep thing that
(26:38):
was used. And I tried, I did do my due
diligence to ask other scholars who work on food history
if they knew anything about battery in Mexico. And really
nobody has done an in depth study on who introduced
better in Mexico. And I believe that it was this
black woman from Mississippi who was free being free in
(27:00):
northern Mexico in the eighteen thirties. Butter was being made
also on the other side in Texas as early as
eighteen twenty eight by the enslaved that were brought by
the Stephen Austin colonists.
Speaker 7 (27:15):
And so there's a lot that points to the fact
that she may have been the first woman to introduce
butter and butter businesses into northern Mexico.
Speaker 1 (27:29):
The best things in life, freedom and butter. A huge
thanks to our special guest, doctor Maria Hamac sofia A
Bravo and OJ and Leslie Trevigno for sharing their time,
their family histories, and their expertise. You can find links
to their work and the episode description. Next week, we'll
continue exploring the southern route of the Underground Railroad through
(27:52):
a unique cookbook and Juneteenth, which has been celebrated in
a community in northern Mexico since the nineteenth century. Well
welcome doctor Hamak back to the show along with Windy
Goodlow and Corinata of the Seminole Indian Scouts Cemetery Association.
Speaker 2 (28:07):
Please join us as always, thank you for listening and
joining us today.
Speaker 1 (28:12):
If you have any dishes or foods you want to
hear about on this show, send us a message. Bye everyone.
Speaker 2 (28:19):
Hungary for History is a Hyphenit media production in partnership
with Iheart's Michael Bura podcast network.
Speaker 1 (28:25):
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