This is The Zone of Disruption! This is the I AM RAPAPORT: STEREO PODCAST! His name is Michael Rapaport aka The Gringo Mandingo aka aka The People's Pickle aka The Jewish Brad Pitt aka Captain Colitis aka The Disruptive Warrior and he is here with Chris Herring (NBA Insider/Author of Blood In The Garden)to discuss: The Knicks vs Pacers series, Being surprised by the firing of Tom Thibedou, not havig access to the Knicks front office, being off Twitter, who the Knicks should hire as the next coach, where Kevin Durant will end up next, the small market NBA Finals & a whole lotta mo'. This episode is not to be missed!
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Speaker 1 (00:10):
Boom have No Fear. The Iron Rapports stereo podcasts every beginning.
Boom have no Fear. The I Am Rappaports stereo podcast
is here. Tom Thibodeaux has been fired by the New
York Knicks. I wanted to see Thibbs run it back.
I thought Thibbs would be back to run it back,
but I brought in senior ESPN writer Chris Herring. Chris Herring,
(00:33):
who's also a New York Times best selling author. He
wrote a great book about the New York Knicks in
the nineteen nineties, to Patrick Ewings, the Charles Oaklees, the
pat Riley's, the Jeff Van Gunnies and so forth and
so on. That's how I met him. His book, New
York Times bestseller, Blood in the Garden is an absolute fun, good,
nostalgic book about Knicks fan's favorite team. In recent years,
(00:54):
I've Chris Herring talking all things NBA, talking Thibbs, talking,
where Kd's going to talking Giannis, talking what it's like
to be an inside inside man with ESPN in twenty
twenty five, and where are we going to be watching
NBA next season. It's a great interview all NBA everything,
my man, Chris Herring, Senior ESPN NBA writer Miles join
(01:18):
Ak to the Bleach Brothers aka the Dust Brothers. Start
this puppy on Chump real life, Start this pippy on
Chump really, but most importantly, start this puppy off with
something real funks. I am a Rapaport Stereo podcast baby, Chris.
(01:41):
I appreciate you joining me on the im Rapaport Stereo Podcast.
I'm a big fan. Glad to have you on the show.
Let's just get to it. Why did the Knicks fire Thibbs?
Speaker 2 (01:51):
It came down to Dolan kind of taking input from
essentially the players and deciding to do that really surprisingly.
Uh So, there aspects of it that feel similar to
their aspects that feel similar as far as the team
and the way that they're built the team and kind
of are they a little bit old school in some
ways and maybe they need to modernize. There's a lot
(02:11):
of stuff that feels similar here. The thing that just
feels completely foreign now, as you know, is that the
Knicks have not been great for very long.
Speaker 3 (02:24):
You know, they're just.
Speaker 2 (02:24):
Now getting back to kind of being a powerhouse. And
is this the right step for this moment given that
you know, it's it's not been a place that they've
been very often, so it's going to be a big gamble.
Speaker 3 (02:37):
But I do understand that, but it's behind it.
Speaker 2 (02:39):
I was a little bit surprised, but I guess you
can't be completely surprised, Like it makes sense that they
want to try to figure out if thinking squeez a
little bit more.
Speaker 3 (02:46):
Out of this. You were surprised a little bit.
Speaker 2 (02:50):
I mean, I think we all knew there was a chance,
but I you know, and who knows. Maybe it's just coding,
and maybe it's just I was there in Indiana after
game six, and you know, Diibideau walks in the room
and then we go to the locker room, and then
maybe twenty thirty minutes after that, Jalen, Brunson and Cat
come out, and Brunson is asked to his face after
(03:11):
about ten minutes worth of questions by one of my colleagues,
you know, more or less do you want to say
anything to kind of suggest that he was more or
less trying to tea Jalen up to say like, hey,
I know how you feel about this, but like there're
gonna be questions about whether Thibodeau should come back, like,
do you think he's the right guy for the job?
So I felt like it was an effort to kind
(03:33):
of put them on the tee and let Jalen say
something really authoritative, and instead Jalen was annoyed, you know,
and I think rightfully so on some level, nobody expected
this team to beat the Celtics. They did that, And
I also feel like by the way, the way that
this team was built, the nature in which they were
built was to beat the Celtics, which they did. They
did not look good going into the end of the
(03:54):
regular season the playoffs. They lost Jalen for a month,
and they'd been knocked the hell out every time they
played against the Celtics during the regular season, with the
exceptional one game. Every other game was fourteen, twenty four,
twenty seven points they're losing by. So they win that series,
and by the way, they win it without it being
just because of Jason Tatum's injury. They were going to
be up three to one anyway, and sillinly me thinking
(04:17):
that that would be enough to kind of guarantee his job.
Not to mention they won a couple games this series
after but I do think people watching the last series
could look at it and say this was still a
winnable series. You lose Game one and the fashion you
were just talking about, you had home court advantage.
Speaker 3 (04:32):
Even if you think the Pacers are deeper.
Speaker 2 (04:35):
You know, you might think that maybe Thibodeau could have
made better use of the bench, and a lot of
people feel that way. But I thought he should be
safe theoretically, just because of what the franchise has been
before him, what the franchise is now. The fact that
players seem to respect him. Whether they might be a
little bit tired of him as a different question, and
you never quite know that part, but the fact that
(04:56):
Jalen was so pissed off that that question was asked,
and we know he has great respect for Tom Thibodau.
He's known Tom Thibodeau since he was a child. So
I was a little bit surprised. Even if it when
you think about it, it makes logical sense. I was still
a little bit surprised.
Speaker 3 (05:12):
Were you.
Speaker 1 (05:14):
I was surprised. I mean, obviously it wasn't like shocking, sure,
but yeah, I was surprised. I thought they would run
it back. I understand, you know, the rotations and the frustrations,
and you know the need to succeed. It is New York.
But I feel like, like everybody, it's not like I
(05:34):
have anything, you know, some groundbreaking stuff. I feel like
we superseded expectations. Obviously, you know, aaron Ne Smith going
nuts in the fourth quarter of that game. Nobody saw
that coming in the Hall of Burton and all that stuff.
And when you lose the first two games of a
of a series at home, you're not winning. I don't
care how much heart and toughness and grit and Josh Harten,
(05:57):
you know, Mitchell Roberts. I mean, we're down to nothing
at home, so we were in a hole. I would
have liked to see them running back because I feel
like it means something that the guys, whether they like
it or not, they do play hard for him. I
think that will translate to whoever's there, because I think
that's the kind of guys they are. But I was surprised,
(06:19):
and just being a Knicks fan for so many years,
and you know, we talked about your book in the beginning,
you know, with the nineties Nicks and then the two
thousand Knicks, and there's so many coaching changes and all
that stuff, and I feel like we finally have a
culture and I feel like we finally have, you know,
just something to build on and to just get rid
of it so quickly. I was disappointed. I was disappointed.
(06:43):
I'm also disappointed. I'm curious to you because you're you're
a writer, You're an NBA writer, you know, which is
almost like you know, a thing of the stone ages now,
And I mean that would all due respect, you know,
with podcasting and social media and videos and all that stuff.
Do you get frustrated? And I'm not trying to walk
you in anything, but you know, with the fact that
(07:03):
the Knicks, out of all the teams in the league,
you know, we don't get a closing press conference, we
don't get the closing statement. You know, the firing was done,
and you know, we probably won't hear from Leon Rose
and see the ownership until there's a new hiring, which
I don't know when that'll be done, probably in the
next couple weeks. But as a writer, is that frustrating
to that the biggest market because it's crazy that since
(07:26):
Thibbs got fired, and even before he got fired, the
a story this week and we have the finals coming up,
even before the firing is the Knicks because it is
New York. Is it frustrating that you don't have access?
Speaker 2 (07:40):
I mean, I will say this, I've noted this shift
for a while, dating back to when Leon was first hired,
that it seems like a lot of fans and I
think that this is something that happens throughout different industries,
but media access to slips, and I think that the
way that people think about the media has shifted a
lot lot, not just in sports. Obviously, we have someone
(08:03):
sitting in the highest office right now who's kind of
made the media an enemy and has called the media
fake news and all these other things. We know the
owner of the team, we know kind of how he's
aligned politically.
Speaker 3 (08:19):
We know about the Trump rally that happened at the Garden.
Speaker 2 (08:22):
I say all that to say, we're in a different
time in society right now. And I felt like I
saw a shift maybe a little bit after I left
the Beat in twenty sixteen, the official Beat. Now I'm
someone that kind of spends a lot of time on
the Knicks, but I still cover national stuff. I felt
like I saw a shift right around the time that
Leon was hired, and he made a decision early on
(08:43):
I'm not doing media people and my profession made a
fuss about it, and it's been written about, and it's
been tweeted about, and reporters will tweet about it, and
fans will be like, stop whining, like he's doing something
different and not so mentioned.
Speaker 3 (09:00):
The Knicks have.
Speaker 2 (09:00):
Started winning, and I feel like, to me, it's not
about whether the team wins or loses. It's having a
level of accountability, and it's there are a lot of
things that I feel like, even with the team winning,
that I would care about as a fan, a lot
of things that if and when things happen, if and
things aren't handled appropriately behind the scenes, if there are
(09:24):
cases that end up being written about, if there are
lawsuits that are written about, if there are people who
are hired that have stuff in their background, which has
been the case before with this team, there should be
a level of accountability of like what prompted you to
make this decision? And frankly, even with coaching hires, there
are questions I'd like to ask about. Okay, sure you
(09:47):
took this step with Tom Thibodeaux, even with the team
advancing as far as it did, did you guys give
Thibodeaux enough depth for this roster to make this call.
Speaker 3 (09:57):
That's not him. He didn't make that decision.
Speaker 2 (10:00):
And eventually, if and when that day comes where Leon
Rose is the person being taken the task. He's never
been someone that needed the media or wanted necessarily the
media attention, but I imagine, like it's I think it's
beneficial to at least have the word out there. This
is what I think, This is what I feel beyond
(10:22):
a three paragraph or even two paragraph statement. I don't
blame him for that being the way he wants to
do things, but I do think that it bothers me
a little bit that so many fans would be like, no,
that's okay, don't speak, don't say anything, because I think
that there's value what.
Speaker 1 (10:38):
Fans on Twitter like, do you do you actually see
that or is that like firsthand because you know, covering
the game now and social media, we don't know if
these these Knick sites, you know, there's so many sites
for obviously because it's the Knicks. You know, there's the
Knick's biggest fan, the Knicks you know, smallest fan, there's
the Knicks you know robots. I mean, like, are the
actual fans, like, are you getting this from people like
(10:58):
in your world.
Speaker 2 (11:00):
So I don't really use as you know, you know,
not communicating. I don't really use Twitter anymore, but when
I did, when I would about brother, it's to me
more of a cesspool than it was before. And I'm okay,
there's enough other sites out there. Just the ridicule and
the lack of security from just passwords and stuff like that,
(11:21):
but also just the bots and and the fact that frankly,
when you tweet stories out you can tell that they've
changed the algorithm in a way to kind of keep
certain voices down lift others up. I'm good, Like there's
enough other stuff. That's how I feel personally. But I
say all that to say I felt it, and I
remember people tweeting about it. I remember someone tweeting a
story about the lack of availability and about the lack
(11:42):
of clarity with regards to at the time when they
brought on Jalen's father who had stuff and his background
and stuff that he'd been accused of, and it was
like it would be fair to ask for accountability and
to ask questions about this, like do fans not care
about this? And they're like, man, no, like if it
leads to us getting Chalen. No, we don't care about this,
(12:05):
like why other teams made their decision. The Knicks made
their decision, so what. But I would say more to
your point, I think our country has spoken largely on
a large faction of our country not caring about this stuff,
about whether people speak to the media, about how they
speak to the media, about whether they tell the truth
when they speak to the media. I think that I
(12:25):
don't think that that is just a one industry or
one faction of our country. I think it is broader,
and I do think that it becomes very easy to
be that way about things that we root for, the
teams that we root for, and people that we root
for that we sometimes don't want them held accountable in
the same way. And to each his own, I don't
necessarily agree with that, but I don't think that it's
(12:46):
just the way I think about it. I do think
that it's a thing. I could be wrong, certainly, it's
my perception, but I do think that it's a thing.
Speaker 1 (13:08):
You covered the Knicks, you understand the Knicks again, your
book Blood in the Garden. Awesome If Chris Herring was
running the Knicks and not Leon Rose. If Chris was
running the entire show. Who would you hire as the
Knicks coach in the next couple of weeks.
Speaker 3 (13:25):
That's a great question.
Speaker 1 (13:27):
And who do you think they will hire.
Speaker 2 (13:29):
I have seen so many people saying Michael Malone, and
I keep thinking, like, do you do know what he
was essentially fired for in Denver?
Speaker 4 (13:36):
Right?
Speaker 3 (13:36):
You know?
Speaker 2 (13:36):
It is the idea that like he got kind of
got tuned out, and then he'd been there a long
time and that yes, people respected him, but then it
just wears on you a little bit, and also the
friction between the front office. So on some level, he
would be a really sensible guy if you want someone
in the same vein they you know, if you can
remember it back to the nineties, they tried to go
(13:56):
completely away from Riley by getting Don Nelson, and then
they ended up with Ben Gundy, who obviously was a
lot like Riley. So maybe there is sense in getting
somebody like that. I've seen some of the other names floated.
I think Mark Stein had reported like, you may u
doope with someone they'd be interested in and maybe even
orchestrating a trade to get I think they would benefit
from somebody a little bit younger Tims was the oldest
(14:19):
coach in the league, so if they could find someone
with that, I also think someone that has defensive chops.
Tims was obviously good in that regard to but defensive
chops that can make use of Cat and I don't know,
I don't know who does that. I don't know who
that is. I don't know how they do it. But
(14:40):
I think it was really interesting all offseason all postseason
to watch Cat and Brunson in foul trouble and sometimes
watch them go on.
Speaker 3 (14:48):
Runs when one of them would be out of the game.
Speaker 2 (14:50):
Because I felt like, man, they can't play out there
with both of them on defense. But if it's just one,
it's you know, you can kind of cover for that one.
You can't do that with two guys, So I I
think it needs to be someone who's defense minded.
Speaker 3 (15:02):
I think they have enough talent on offense.
Speaker 2 (15:04):
I also think they've got other tricks that they can
pull out of their bag on offense to not play
heart alongside Kat so that they can truly play five out.
So I think they might have some stuff they can
do offensively. Regardless of who the coaches, I think that
they need another really strong defensive mind, and maybe someone
that utilizes newer concepts, because TIMS has been a good
(15:25):
defensive code for a long time and used to be
great in my opinion, But I think the game has
shifted a little bit and there might be guys that
think about it a little bit differently. They really don't
wait until the end of the season to start switching
just for the Boston Series and stuff like that, So
I'm not.
Speaker 1 (15:39):
Sure that was who that was crazy.
Speaker 2 (15:41):
Yeah, there were a lot of adjustments that came late
that I just kept looking at him, like, if Delon
Right and Landry Shammitt actually fit in your rotation and
play this well in your rotation, why were you not
using them more before? And it kind of gave a
lot of life to Mikhail Bridges' comments from March about
the idea of like, we've got guys that are capable
that could take some minutes off of us and we
wouldn't be so tired.
Speaker 1 (16:02):
I see behind you you have a bunch of books,
but I notice you have the Yannis book behind you.
What do you think is going to happen? You're an
insider man, I know you keeping it close to the
vest I know people text you you got you got sources.
What do you think is going to wind up happen
with Giannis this summer.
Speaker 2 (16:23):
I think definitively he's going to need to ask out.
The Bucks are not going to do anything without him saying, look,
I don't think I can do this anymore.
Speaker 3 (16:32):
They they are going to tread lightly.
Speaker 2 (16:37):
But look, I mean like, if you are any other team,
you would want to take care to make sure that
you're not moving too quickly because if anything shifts with that,
you want to be in the driver's seat. And if
you're the NIXT I imagine you you too would want
to be in the driver's seat for something like that.
Yannas strikes me as the last person to ask out,
but obviously my teammate has Chalms has reported that he
(17:00):
for the first time, is at least open to the idea.
And stuff is pretty dire there. They've already kind of
swapped out coaches. They did that last year to get Doc.
Doc is highly paid. I'd imagine he's not going anywhere.
They just locked in their GM. Further to an extension
which I was very surprised by with John Horse and
Dame is out with an Achilles, and also Dame is
(17:22):
as old as he is, so there's really not much
coming to save them right now.
Speaker 3 (17:27):
That I mean, Kyle Kuzma was dreadful in the postseason.
Speaker 1 (17:30):
Man he was dropped.
Speaker 2 (17:32):
Yeah, I didn't quite understand that tread I didn't know
if he was enough of an upgrade. I knew he
was younger, but he's not like wildly athletic. He had
not had a great season to that point either. But
it leaves me in a spot where it's like, it
seems very possible that just looking at the writing on
the wall, I'll put it this way, between him and
Tibbs and having hope in one versus the other, I
(17:52):
think the Knicks would have been smart to have more
faith than TIBs than Gianna should have faith in the Bucks.
So we saw the way that the Knicks I mean,
maybe honest we'll ask out. But I think that's the
question that everybody's waiting on, is like if he does,
does everyone want to get involved? Does he have a
very clear place that he'd like to go or a
place or two that he'd like to go, And then
(18:13):
if you're the Knicks, like how would you try to
make it work? Because you know, obviously it would probably
have to involve someone like kat to make it happen.
It's just such a big salary thing, and the Knicks
have such big blocks of salary devoted to two or
three guys that you're.
Speaker 3 (18:26):
Probably not moving. You're not going to move Jailing to
get that done.
Speaker 2 (18:30):
Obviously, would you move Kat would you move Og to
get something like that done if that was something that
the Bucks wanted back. But it's going to be a
tough pill to swallow for Milwaukee because you know they
don't want to do that unless they absolutely have to.
Speaker 1 (18:43):
And the other big name, Phoenix just hired their coach today.
The other big name, obviously is Kevin Durant. What do
you think is going to wind up happening for him?
I could see him getting to the Knicks. You know,
they're talking about Karl Anthony again, and you know Kevin
Booker and Phoenix and all that stuff. You know, you
(19:03):
always got to give up to get and get to
give and all that stuff. But where would you say
he would be the best situation or the most likely
situation for Durant?
Speaker 3 (19:11):
Man, I don't I'm so curious whether you like that
fit or not.
Speaker 2 (19:15):
I mean, I Katie is older, and the one thing
I will say I like about the.
Speaker 3 (19:20):
Knicks, and then I feel like it's getting lost in
all this.
Speaker 2 (19:23):
They accomplished what they accomplished in year one with this
group with no real offseason to work together, as you
and I were alluding to, with no real I'm not
gonna say adjustments, but like they hit a lot until
the postseason. We saw no Mitchell Robinson until the last
twenty games of the season. We didn't really see them
switch a lot until the fourth time they played the Celtics,
(19:46):
and then in the playoffs against the Celtics, and they
still ended up two games out of the finals, two
wins away from the finals, so they're not dead in
the water. But part of what I appreciate about them
is that they're young enough, Like this is a group
and a core that all kind of fits together age wise.
Katie breaks that and he's a great player.
Speaker 3 (20:07):
Still. I don't want to blame his team's feelings.
Speaker 2 (20:10):
On him, because that's not fair, but I don't I
don't think I would love that fit. Like obviously, when
he was trying to pick a team before and he
went to Brooklyn, I think the timing on that would
have been.
Speaker 3 (20:22):
Perfect, But I don't think that now.
Speaker 2 (20:25):
If you could take Katie in the way he's playing
right now and make him three years younger, sure at
thirty three, at thirty six, I don't think.
Speaker 3 (20:32):
I don't think I love that. Do you? How would
you feel about it?
Speaker 4 (20:36):
No?
Speaker 1 (20:36):
I agree, because it's like he's still sick. But you
know you're all in, you know, and it's going to happen,
and you're going to give up a lot. Are you
a diet? Like are you considering yourself a Knicks fan?
I know you covered the league, but where's your head?
Speaker 3 (20:49):
No?
Speaker 2 (20:49):
No, I mean like when I covered when I first
started covering the NBA, you were mentioning, I'm from Michigan.
Speaker 3 (20:55):
I went to Michigan. I'm from Chicago. Originally.
Speaker 2 (20:58):
I grew up at the like the tail end of
the Jordan era, so I was a fan as a kid.
I didn't even know what I was watching or you know,
like I didn't even know anything about.
Speaker 3 (21:05):
The Knicks at that time as far as their rivalry.
I was too young. But I don't care.
Speaker 2 (21:10):
I think to me, and I don't think this is
true of everybody or even most people, the fandom for
me kind of dies like covering the game because I
find myself rooting for good stories, like something an outcome
that will help me to write a better story, or
something that's interesting. I just got married, and so I
kind of was rooting during the off season for like
(21:31):
the series to just be short. However they played out
so I could get back to my wife and whatnot.
I don't really care who wins or loses. Like I
love the passion of the Knicks fans. I obviously spend
a lot of time around them and think it's cool
as hell when you guys win a series and people
are climbing up.
Speaker 3 (21:46):
Poles and whatnot. I don't really care.
Speaker 2 (21:49):
I mean I root sometimes for players to land in
good situations because it makes teams in the league more interesting.
Like so the fan in me, like just a basketball
fan of me, not like a fan of a team,
would love to see Katie with the Knicks because it's
like it it just kind of goes all in further
because it's like, well, if that doesn't work, and two
(22:10):
years ago by and now it's thirty eight, like now
what are you doing?
Speaker 3 (22:13):
And now what did you give up?
Speaker 2 (22:14):
I thought it was fascinating that they went all in
for Bridges that they went all in for towns for
those same reasons.
Speaker 1 (22:20):
We went all in with Bridges they did.
Speaker 2 (22:22):
And I remember I asked him a media day, not
media did his h Yeah, it was media day the
introductory press conference for him. I said, Michael, I know
this is not your problem necessarily, but like, what do
you make of the idea that they gave up five
picks for you? Like, because I know that that on
some level as the organization saying they trust you and
(22:44):
they trust the fit that you're going to have with
this group, but also it put it's gonna put a
target on your back every time you don't play well.
And I didn't word it that directly, but I said, like,
what do you make of that? He's like, man, I'm
just kind of here to do my job, and like
he's like that he's not gonna make a big deal
out of it. But I remember we all knew that
when like I and immediately the first question that came
(23:05):
in my mind is kind of someone who's stat heavy.
I was like, I can guarantee you there've never been
that many picks given up for someone that's never made
an All Star team, and they haven't so He's one
of one in that way, and he did make up
for it on some level in the playoffs. He also
had some duds in the playoffs, but he made some
really big plays. He seemed more comfortable, and it seemed
like he was playing, if not harder than he was
(23:25):
a little bit more physical in the playoffs than he
was during the regular season, because I felt like watching
him in the regular season, even watching him in the preseason,
I was like washing him up close every game. I
now see how he stays healthy to some extent because
he does not run through screens, like he does not
finish at the basket. He pulls up and you know
he'd go six or seven games without a trip to
(23:46):
the line, and it's like he protects his body, which
is smart for what he does and what he prioritizes.
But they need a little bit more from him, especially
get considering they gave up five picks, you have to
imagine they thought he was going to be a perfect
fit to go that many draft picks.
Speaker 4 (24:01):
For him the finals.
Speaker 1 (24:20):
What do you see in this matchup? And also this
is probably I don't know someone you know in the
modern era, definitely the two smallest markets to make it
to the finals far recently. What do you think about
the matchup and what do you think about the fact
that two small markets, you know, quote unquote small markets
made it to the finals.
Speaker 3 (24:40):
I think the matchup itself is really fun.
Speaker 2 (24:43):
I mean, these are the two teams that the last
two three four months of the year had the best
record in the league, between okay See and then obviously Indiana.
They are teams that play very fun styles, and I
think people have the not everybody. You kind of rightly
ask like, where are you getting that impression from. I
(25:04):
don't necessarily think it's everybody, but I do think that
a large portion of fans, even ones that love the sport,
are quick to label a matchup as boring if they
either don't recognize the stars, don't recognize the teams, or
taking it a step further, it's just see teams that
are from small markets and they're like, I don't want that.
(25:24):
I mean, okay See had a historic season, a historic
point differential. They look every bit the part of Golden
State when they first started their dynasty. There is almost
no difference statistically between what they're doing and this year
versus what the Warriors did their first year of that group,
(25:46):
I think that group was sixty seven and fifteen and
this team is sixty eight and fourteen for the season.
The point differentials are similar. They both had an MVP,
they both had a really good second guy, and Clay
and here Jalen Williams just nasty sort of layers to
this team. They're They're as dominant defensively as any team
(26:07):
I've seen in my time covering the league, and I
think even going back further than that.
Speaker 3 (26:11):
So they're great. But the Pacers are really great too.
Speaker 2 (26:14):
I worry a little bit whether the Pacers will be
able to stay really competitive for a full series. I mean,
we've obviously seen them give everybody else. But I told
my close friend the other day, a diehard basketball fan,
I said, Mark has been I don't make any I
think you even clocked it in a minute ago, Like,
I'm not the biggest on making really bold predictions, but
I was like, I think I've seen enough from Oksey
(26:35):
at this point to think that even in this era
where we've had seven new champions in a row, I
think they're going to win three out of the next five.
And my best my best friend was like, Bro, you're
wild and I don't think so, because think about it,
the reason that most teams can't do it right now
is that Apron and the luxury taxes and everything else.
Like the minute you win, you've got to start thinking
(26:57):
about how to tear the roster down so that you
don't end up too far in the time.
Speaker 3 (27:00):
It's too expensive.
Speaker 2 (27:01):
The Celtics won last year's title and a week after
that they were putting the team up for sale, which
was wild but tells you like, it's too expensive for
even owners to want to really do this. I say
all of that to say the Thunder aren't having those
problems yet. So, yeah, they've got Shay, He's an MVP,
Supermax all that stuff. Their next two best players are
(27:24):
I think twenty three and twenty two, and so they're
still in their first contract. They're not up against a
luxury tax, they're not up against an Apron. They have
what four different guys that all could realistically be all
defense players.
Speaker 3 (27:41):
Obviously Caruso. Cruso was guarding sinners reliably during the playoffs.
Speaker 2 (27:46):
Jalen Williams, when Chet and Isaiah Hartenstein were still hurt,
was guarding sinners and had one of the best rint
protection rates in the league. As a two guard, I
really stop two guard. But a two guard that doesn't
even count Scheit, that doesn't even count Hartenstein. But you've
got two guards that can play center at moments. You've
got Shay who is among the league leaders in deflections,
(28:09):
You've got lou dort Man. It's just it's too much defense,
I think for most teams to deal with. And I
think the biggest part is they still have a boatload
of picks. So even if they did start having financial pressure,
Heart and SIGDN obviously is a thirty million dollar contract.
Speaker 3 (28:22):
Other guys are gonna.
Speaker 2 (28:23):
Get paid soon ish, but you could always flip those
and go bring in someone younger who fits you perfectly.
With all those picks you have, I really don't think
they're going to run up against the financial pressures that
everybody else is having over the last five years. I
think it would mean that they have to win this
year and probably next year. But I think that there's
a good chance that they get at least two and
(28:44):
I would put money on three out of the next five.
Speaker 3 (28:46):
I really, wow, I really would.
Speaker 1 (28:47):
All right, I got to mark that down. Oh my
last question for you is so much is changing with
the media rights TNT and did their show. I'm not
even exactly sure. I'm so confused, and I don't have
to worry about it for a few months. I'm not
exactly sure where to watch NBA? Next year they got Amazon,
NBC is going to be d Can you explain us
(29:11):
to us again? It's early next October. Where are we
watching the NBA? And where is Shaq, Kenny Charles and
Aernie gonna wind up? I'm confused.
Speaker 2 (29:21):
I'm pretty sure they're gonna end up with my network.
They're going to and it is confusing. To be fair
to you, I think that those guys are going to
have a licensing deal with ESPN where they still work
for Turner, but obviously Turner doesn't have rights anymore, so
they're going to license that ability to show it through ESPN.
And that I read the other day it's obviously just
(29:42):
a report, but that they're going to have like a
postgame show on ESPN and they're trying to figure out
how to make it work with Scott Vin Pelt so
that they can have a full postgame show but also
involve Ben Pelt. And I think Van Pelt reportedly is
like being gracious enough to say, like they can have
some of my time if it means that we get
to work together, that they to got to do their thing.
So that's my understanding of it. I think it's NBC.
(30:04):
I think it's Amazon. I know I'm missing another one.
Speaker 1 (30:07):
I know ESPN, say Netflix, like I have Christmas Games or.
Speaker 3 (30:10):
Something like that, something weird like that.
Speaker 2 (30:11):
Like, I'll be honest, that's one of my least favorite
things about a lot of stuff that I watch now,
where it's like you have to kind of cobble together
everything with all your streaming services, which feels like a
cable plan at that point once you've done all that.
But I think people are going to have to have
a couple of different ones to make it work. It
is a little frustrating.
Speaker 1 (30:27):
So is there not going to be any more NBA
package where you're just like you're in the NB, like
if it's all those three or four places, you know
you have to like hobble back and hobble this, and
that's kind of.
Speaker 3 (30:38):
Crazy, it is.
Speaker 2 (30:40):
I worry that there's not going to be one because
I think, to your point, what would the motivation be
like if you're NBC and you want to get your
money back for having paid whatever chunk of the billions
of dollars that this is going to cost. You want
people to log onto your app or to your channel specifically,
not period something that's going to be like a you know,
a hodgepodge, like, oh, we all take a slice of it.
(31:01):
You want your money. So I don't know how it works.
I've always wondered that.
Speaker 3 (31:04):
I know.
Speaker 2 (31:06):
I want to say to your question that that's something
that Dolan has complained about himself too, of like you're
watering down the value of the media rights steals that
we're signing as individual markets by having all these different
groups involved and wanting to take more and more games
and make them national. It's not fair to us, you know,
like it waters down the value of the individual games
(31:28):
we want to show. So it's certainly interesting, I'll tell
you that. And it's I don't quite know exactly how
it's going to work either. I think a lot of
us are confused, and it'll probably make more sense once
it's up and running.
Speaker 3 (31:39):
But yeah, it's a weird time.
Speaker 2 (31:41):
And also like NBC is going to have Michael Jordan,
Like I can't imagine he's going to make more than
one or two appearances on that network, I would be
so surprised.
Speaker 3 (31:49):
I would be stunned.
Speaker 1 (31:50):
I know that's going to be crazy. I like, what
is he going to do? Like he like they're gonna
like ship them in, like he comes like on a
space ship, like bro.
Speaker 2 (31:58):
I can't imagine this anything but like tape content, Like
I can't imagine I'm just going to have him sitting
there on a panel because I feel like everybody will
be hanging on every word the man says, you know,
like I can't imagine.
Speaker 3 (32:09):
I really, I don't know.
Speaker 2 (32:10):
I'd have to see it to believe it, Like I
would be stunned if it's more than once or twice,
because it was also so bigue the way they mentioned it,
like it sounded like they did not have it all
the way ironed out. Because also, what are you paying
him to do that? Like he doesn't need the money.
So I'll be curious to.
Speaker 1 (32:23):
See because I thought Tom Brady was going to be
like that sort of you know, Jedi thing. But me personally,
I like the way he was covering the games. Obviously
people nitpick everything about because Tom Brady and all that stuff,
but I thought he made a good transition. I feel
like Mike is still in you know, Air Jordan mode,
and you know Tom Brady, you see a different side
of him since he retired, kind of like Alex Rodriguez,
(32:45):
you were like, who is this person? I don't know
if that person exists in Michael Jordans, I don't know
what they're going.
Speaker 3 (32:50):
To do it.
Speaker 2 (32:50):
I was older man, like those other guys were still
closer to having gotten out of the league, like Michael's
had twenty years damn near to like just kind of
sit and I we'll see, Like he just hasn't ever
been required to say much to your point, like not
necessarily of a controversial nature, but just like he I
just feel like him talking at all.
Speaker 1 (33:11):
Good or bad. He just doesn't say much, like you know,
whether he loves it or doesn't like it.
Speaker 3 (33:15):
So I'd be surprised.
Speaker 2 (33:16):
But I could imagine that they have like pre recorded
content with him where maybe he's talking about teams or something.
Speaker 3 (33:23):
I also could have seen for a while.
Speaker 2 (33:24):
I think it's a little late to jump in with this,
but like Kobe was doing those things for ESPN where
he would like break down the intricacies of the game.
Speaker 3 (33:32):
He really cared.
Speaker 2 (33:33):
About that stuff. I'm not sure to what extent Michael does.
But again, Kobe wasn't nearly as far removed. Kobe was
a year or two out of the league at that point.
Michael's been gone for so long that we're different. We're
in a completely different era a basketball so but either way,
I guarantee you that me and probably most of us
are going to want to at least see it and
be curious to see it, because, like you said, he
so rarely speaks.
Speaker 1 (33:54):
So I'm down Chris again. I love your book Blood
in the Garden. Are you working on anything else outside
of covering a free ESPN? Are you working on a
love book?
Speaker 3 (34:03):
I am man, I'm man.
Speaker 2 (34:04):
It's coming along so slowly, and I'm so embarrassed. I
am working on another book. It is on another team.
I'm not at a point yet where i want to
say exactly who it is, but it's.
Speaker 3 (34:14):
About the more modern era.
Speaker 2 (34:16):
Some people have asked me, They're like, are you doing
a nextbook, a second nextbook on this era? I was like,
somebody beat me to the punch on that, so somebody
else will, but mine will be on a more modern team,
like over the last twenty years that I'll work on
that I'm excited about, but still pretty far away from finishing.
Speaker 3 (34:31):
So I'm excited about that.
Speaker 2 (34:33):
I'm curious whether it will have the appeal that the
k nextbook did. Knicks fans are one of one as
far as just how many of them there are, how
passionate they are. I think people were excited to read
about the book that I did because that was such
a beloved team.
Speaker 3 (34:47):
So we'll have to see whether.
Speaker 2 (34:49):
We'll have to see what it was so good too,
Thanks brother, appreciate you like this.
Speaker 3 (34:52):
We'll have to see whether it was funny.
Speaker 2 (34:54):
Because when I was looking at Second Ideas, I was like, Man,
is there any other team Lakers aside that I can
really write about that has a fan base like that?
And maybe some do like also, that hasn't been so
delved into our like the Bulls obviously have been kind
of between docs and everything else. So it's hard to
find any team or any situation that people care that
deeply about with that many people caring about it. But
(35:17):
I hope people really liked it. When I'm done with it,
probably still at least the other year two wagh though,
all right.
Speaker 1 (35:21):
Cool, well, Chris I appreciate you joining me on the
Iron Rapports Stereo podcast. I appreciate your time.
Speaker 3 (35:26):
I man, absolutely man, I appreciate you having me. Thank
you for everything.
Speaker 1 (35:31):
All right, I want to thank my guest, Chris Herring,
senior NBA writer for EESP and again. Knicks fans, you
should absolutely check out his book New York Times bestseller
Blood in the Garden. Miles Jordan ak The Bleach Brothers
aka the Dust Brothers. Take me out of with something
real nice, tikety, take me out of here with something
(35:53):
real loud, but most importantly, take me out it with
something super duper funky. Time Rapports Stereo Podcast. I'm out
Boom have No Fear. The Iron Rapports stereo podcasts every beginning.
Boom have no Fear. The I Am Rappaports stereo podcast
is here. Tom Thibodeaux has been fired by the New
York Knicks. I wanted to see Thibbs run it back.
I thought Thibbs would be back to run it back,
but I brought in senior ESPN writer Chris Herring. Chris Herring,
(00:33):
who's also a New York Times best selling author. He
wrote a great book about the New York Knicks in
the nineteen nineties, to Patrick Ewings, the Charles Oaklees, the
pat Riley's, the Jeff Van Gunnies and so forth and
so on. That's how I met him. His book, New
York Times bestseller, Blood in the Garden is an absolute fun, good,
nostalgic book about Knicks fan's favorite team. In recent years,
(00:54):
I've Chris Herring talking all things NBA, talking Thibbs, talking,
where Kd's going to talking Giannis, talking what it's like
to be an inside inside man with ESPN in twenty
twenty five, and where are we going to be watching
NBA next season. It's a great interview all NBA everything,
my man, Chris Herring, Senior ESPN NBA writer Miles join
(01:18):
Ak to the Bleach Brothers aka the Dust Brothers. Start
this puppy on Chump real life, Start this pippy on
Chump really, but most importantly, start this puppy off with
something real funks. I am a Rapaport Stereo podcast baby, Chris.
(01:41):
I appreciate you joining me on the im Rapaport Stereo Podcast.
I'm a big fan. Glad to have you on the show.
Let's just get to it. Why did the Knicks fire Thibbs?
Speaker 2 (01:51):
It came down to Dolan kind of taking input from
essentially the players and deciding to do that really surprisingly.
Uh So, there aspects of it that feel similar to
their aspects that feel similar as far as the team
and the way that they're built the team and kind
of are they a little bit old school in some
ways and maybe they need to modernize. There's a lot
(02:11):
of stuff that feels similar here. The thing that just
feels completely foreign now, as you know, is that the
Knicks have not been great for very long.
Speaker 3 (02:24):
You know, they're just.
Speaker 2 (02:24):
Now getting back to kind of being a powerhouse. And
is this the right step for this moment given that
you know, it's it's not been a place that they've
been very often, so it's going to be a big gamble.
Speaker 3 (02:37):
But I do understand that, but it's behind it.
Speaker 2 (02:39):
I was a little bit surprised, but I guess you
can't be completely surprised, Like it makes sense that they
want to try to figure out if thinking squeez a
little bit more.
Speaker 3 (02:46):
Out of this. You were surprised a little bit.
Speaker 2 (02:50):
I mean, I think we all knew there was a chance,
but I you know, and who knows. Maybe it's just coding,
and maybe it's just I was there in Indiana after
game six, and you know, Diibideau walks in the room
and then we go to the locker room, and then
maybe twenty thirty minutes after that, Jalen, Brunson and Cat
come out, and Brunson is asked to his face after
(03:11):
about ten minutes worth of questions by one of my colleagues,
you know, more or less do you want to say
anything to kind of suggest that he was more or
less trying to tea Jalen up to say like, hey,
I know how you feel about this, but like there're
gonna be questions about whether Thibodeau should come back, like,
do you think he's the right guy for the job?
So I felt like it was an effort to kind
(03:33):
of put them on the tee and let Jalen say
something really authoritative, and instead Jalen was annoyed, you know,
and I think rightfully so on some level, nobody expected
this team to beat the Celtics. They did that, And
I also feel like by the way, the way that
this team was built, the nature in which they were
built was to beat the Celtics, which they did. They
did not look good going into the end of the
(03:54):
regular season the playoffs. They lost Jalen for a month,
and they'd been knocked the hell out every time they
played against the Celtics during the regular season, with the
exceptional one game. Every other game was fourteen, twenty four,
twenty seven points they're losing by. So they win that series,
and by the way, they win it without it being
just because of Jason Tatum's injury. They were going to
be up three to one anyway, and sillinly me thinking
(04:17):
that that would be enough to kind of guarantee his job.
Not to mention they won a couple games this series
after but I do think people watching the last series
could look at it and say this was still a
winnable series. You lose Game one and the fashion you
were just talking about, you had home court advantage.
Speaker 3 (04:32):
Even if you think the Pacers are deeper.
Speaker 2 (04:35):
You know, you might think that maybe Thibodeau could have
made better use of the bench, and a lot of
people feel that way. But I thought he should be
safe theoretically, just because of what the franchise has been
before him, what the franchise is now. The fact that
players seem to respect him. Whether they might be a
little bit tired of him as a different question, and
you never quite know that part, but the fact that
(04:56):
Jalen was so pissed off that that question was asked,
and we know he has great respect for Tom Thibodau.
He's known Tom Thibodeau since he was a child. So
I was a little bit surprised. Even if it when
you think about it, it makes logical sense. I was still
a little bit surprised.
Speaker 3 (05:12):
Were you.
Speaker 1 (05:14):
I was surprised. I mean, obviously it wasn't like shocking, sure,
but yeah, I was surprised. I thought they would run
it back. I understand, you know, the rotations and the frustrations,
and you know the need to succeed. It is New York.
But I feel like, like everybody, it's not like I
(05:34):
have anything, you know, some groundbreaking stuff. I feel like
we superseded expectations. Obviously, you know, aaron Ne Smith going
nuts in the fourth quarter of that game. Nobody saw
that coming in the Hall of Burton and all that stuff.
And when you lose the first two games of a
of a series at home, you're not winning. I don't
care how much heart and toughness and grit and Josh Harten,
(05:57):
you know, Mitchell Roberts. I mean, we're down to nothing
at home, so we were in a hole. I would
have liked to see them running back because I feel
like it means something that the guys, whether they like
it or not, they do play hard for him. I
think that will translate to whoever's there, because I think
that's the kind of guys they are. But I was surprised,
(06:19):
and just being a Knicks fan for so many years,
and you know, we talked about your book in the beginning,
you know, with the nineties Nicks and then the two
thousand Knicks, and there's so many coaching changes and all
that stuff, and I feel like we finally have a
culture and I feel like we finally have, you know,
just something to build on and to just get rid
of it so quickly. I was disappointed. I was disappointed.
(06:43):
I'm also disappointed. I'm curious to you because you're you're
a writer, You're an NBA writer, you know, which is
almost like you know, a thing of the stone ages now,
And I mean that would all due respect, you know,
with podcasting and social media and videos and all that stuff.
Do you get frustrated? And I'm not trying to walk
you in anything, but you know, with the fact that
(07:03):
the Knicks, out of all the teams in the league,
you know, we don't get a closing press conference, we
don't get the closing statement. You know, the firing was done,
and you know, we probably won't hear from Leon Rose
and see the ownership until there's a new hiring, which
I don't know when that'll be done, probably in the
next couple weeks. But as a writer, is that frustrating
to that the biggest market because it's crazy that since
(07:26):
Thibbs got fired, and even before he got fired, the
a story this week and we have the finals coming up,
even before the firing is the Knicks because it is
New York. Is it frustrating that you don't have access?
Speaker 2 (07:40):
I mean, I will say this, I've noted this shift
for a while, dating back to when Leon was first hired,
that it seems like a lot of fans and I
think that this is something that happens throughout different industries,
but media access to slips, and I think that the
way that people think about the media has shifted a
lot lot, not just in sports. Obviously, we have someone
(08:03):
sitting in the highest office right now who's kind of
made the media an enemy and has called the media
fake news and all these other things. We know the
owner of the team, we know kind of how he's
aligned politically.
Speaker 3 (08:19):
We know about the Trump rally that happened at the Garden.
Speaker 2 (08:22):
I say all that to say, we're in a different
time in society right now. And I felt like I
saw a shift maybe a little bit after I left
the Beat in twenty sixteen, the official Beat. Now I'm
someone that kind of spends a lot of time on
the Knicks, but I still cover national stuff. I felt
like I saw a shift right around the time that
Leon was hired, and he made a decision early on
(08:43):
I'm not doing media people and my profession made a
fuss about it, and it's been written about, and it's
been tweeted about, and reporters will tweet about it, and
fans will be like, stop whining, like he's doing something
different and not so mentioned.
Speaker 3 (09:00):
The Knicks have.
Speaker 2 (09:00):
Started winning, and I feel like, to me, it's not
about whether the team wins or loses. It's having a
level of accountability, and it's there are a lot of
things that I feel like, even with the team winning,
that I would care about as a fan, a lot
of things that if and when things happen, if and
things aren't handled appropriately behind the scenes, if there are
(09:24):
cases that end up being written about, if there are
lawsuits that are written about, if there are people who
are hired that have stuff in their background, which has
been the case before with this team, there should be
a level of accountability of like what prompted you to
make this decision? And frankly, even with coaching hires, there
are questions I'd like to ask about. Okay, sure you
(09:47):
took this step with Tom Thibodeaux, even with the team
advancing as far as it did, did you guys give
Thibodeaux enough depth for this roster to make this call.
Speaker 3 (09:57):
That's not him. He didn't make that decision.
Speaker 2 (10:00):
And eventually, if and when that day comes where Leon
Rose is the person being taken the task. He's never
been someone that needed the media or wanted necessarily the
media attention, but I imagine, like it's I think it's
beneficial to at least have the word out there. This
is what I think, This is what I feel beyond
(10:22):
a three paragraph or even two paragraph statement. I don't
blame him for that being the way he wants to
do things, but I do think that it bothers me
a little bit that so many fans would be like, no,
that's okay, don't speak, don't say anything, because I think
that there's value what.
Speaker 1 (10:38):
Fans on Twitter like, do you do you actually see
that or is that like firsthand because you know, covering
the game now and social media, we don't know if
these these Knick sites, you know, there's so many sites
for obviously because it's the Knicks. You know, there's the
Knick's biggest fan, the Knicks you know, smallest fan, there's
the Knicks you know robots. I mean, like, are the
actual fans, like, are you getting this from people like
(10:58):
in your world.
Speaker 2 (11:00):
So I don't really use as you know, you know,
not communicating. I don't really use Twitter anymore, but when
I did, when I would about brother, it's to me
more of a cesspool than it was before. And I'm okay,
there's enough other sites out there. Just the ridicule and
the lack of security from just passwords and stuff like that,
(11:21):
but also just the bots and and the fact that frankly,
when you tweet stories out you can tell that they've
changed the algorithm in a way to kind of keep
certain voices down lift others up. I'm good, Like there's
enough other stuff. That's how I feel personally. But I
say all that to say I felt it, and I
remember people tweeting about it. I remember someone tweeting a
story about the lack of availability and about the lack
(11:42):
of clarity with regards to at the time when they
brought on Jalen's father who had stuff and his background
and stuff that he'd been accused of, and it was
like it would be fair to ask for accountability and
to ask questions about this, like do fans not care
about this? And they're like, man, no, like if it
leads to us getting Chalen. No, we don't care about this,
(12:05):
like why other teams made their decision. The Knicks made
their decision, so what. But I would say more to
your point, I think our country has spoken largely on
a large faction of our country not caring about this stuff,
about whether people speak to the media, about how they
speak to the media, about whether they tell the truth
when they speak to the media. I think that I
(12:25):
don't think that that is just a one industry or
one faction of our country. I think it is broader,
and I do think that it becomes very easy to
be that way about things that we root for, the
teams that we root for, and people that we root
for that we sometimes don't want them held accountable in
the same way. And to each his own, I don't
necessarily agree with that, but I don't think that it's
(12:46):
just the way I think about it. I do think
that it's a thing. I could be wrong, certainly, it's
my perception, but I do think that it's a thing.
Speaker 1 (13:08):
You covered the Knicks, you understand the Knicks again, your
book Blood in the Garden. Awesome If Chris Herring was
running the Knicks and not Leon Rose. If Chris was
running the entire show. Who would you hire as the
Knicks coach in the next couple of weeks.
Speaker 3 (13:25):
That's a great question.
Speaker 1 (13:27):
And who do you think they will hire.
Speaker 2 (13:29):
I have seen so many people saying Michael Malone, and
I keep thinking, like, do you do know what he
was essentially fired for in Denver?
Speaker 4 (13:36):
Right?
Speaker 3 (13:36):
You know?
Speaker 2 (13:36):
It is the idea that like he got kind of
got tuned out, and then he'd been there a long
time and that yes, people respected him, but then it
just wears on you a little bit, and also the
friction between the front office. So on some level, he
would be a really sensible guy if you want someone
in the same vein they you know, if you can
remember it back to the nineties, they tried to go
(13:56):
completely away from Riley by getting Don Nelson, and then
they ended up with Ben Gundy, who obviously was a
lot like Riley. So maybe there is sense in getting
somebody like that. I've seen some of the other names floated.
I think Mark Stein had reported like, you may u
doope with someone they'd be interested in and maybe even
orchestrating a trade to get I think they would benefit
from somebody a little bit younger Tims was the oldest
(14:19):
coach in the league, so if they could find someone
with that, I also think someone that has defensive chops.
Tims was obviously good in that regard to but defensive
chops that can make use of Cat and I don't know,
I don't know who does that. I don't know who
that is. I don't know how they do it. But
(14:40):
I think it was really interesting all offseason all postseason
to watch Cat and Brunson in foul trouble and sometimes
watch them go on.
Speaker 3 (14:48):
Runs when one of them would be out of the game.
Speaker 2 (14:50):
Because I felt like, man, they can't play out there
with both of them on defense. But if it's just one,
it's you know, you can kind of cover for that one.
You can't do that with two guys, So I I
think it needs to be someone who's defense minded.
Speaker 3 (15:02):
I think they have enough talent on offense.
Speaker 2 (15:04):
I also think they've got other tricks that they can
pull out of their bag on offense to not play
heart alongside Kat so that they can truly play five out.
So I think they might have some stuff they can
do offensively. Regardless of who the coaches, I think that
they need another really strong defensive mind, and maybe someone
that utilizes newer concepts, because TIMS has been a good
(15:25):
defensive code for a long time and used to be
great in my opinion, But I think the game has
shifted a little bit and there might be guys that
think about it a little bit differently. They really don't
wait until the end of the season to start switching
just for the Boston Series and stuff like that, So
I'm not.
Speaker 1 (15:39):
Sure that was who that was crazy.
Speaker 2 (15:41):
Yeah, there were a lot of adjustments that came late
that I just kept looking at him, like, if Delon
Right and Landry Shammitt actually fit in your rotation and
play this well in your rotation, why were you not
using them more before? And it kind of gave a
lot of life to Mikhail Bridges' comments from March about
the idea of like, we've got guys that are capable
that could take some minutes off of us and we
wouldn't be so tired.
Speaker 1 (16:02):
I see behind you you have a bunch of books,
but I notice you have the Yannis book behind you.
What do you think is going to happen? You're an
insider man, I know you keeping it close to the
vest I know people text you you got you got sources.
What do you think is going to wind up happen
with Giannis this summer.
Speaker 2 (16:23):
I think definitively he's going to need to ask out.
The Bucks are not going to do anything without him saying, look,
I don't think I can do this anymore.
Speaker 3 (16:32):
They they are going to tread lightly.
Speaker 2 (16:37):
But look, I mean like, if you are any other team,
you would want to take care to make sure that
you're not moving too quickly because if anything shifts with that,
you want to be in the driver's seat. And if
you're the NIXT I imagine you you too would want
to be in the driver's seat for something like that.
Yannas strikes me as the last person to ask out,
but obviously my teammate has Chalms has reported that he
(17:00):
for the first time, is at least open to the idea.
And stuff is pretty dire there. They've already kind of
swapped out coaches. They did that last year to get Doc.
Doc is highly paid. I'd imagine he's not going anywhere.
They just locked in their GM. Further to an extension
which I was very surprised by with John Horse and
Dame is out with an Achilles, and also Dame is
(17:22):
as old as he is, so there's really not much
coming to save them right now.
Speaker 3 (17:27):
That I mean, Kyle Kuzma was dreadful in the postseason.
Speaker 1 (17:30):
Man he was dropped.
Speaker 2 (17:32):
Yeah, I didn't quite understand that tread I didn't know
if he was enough of an upgrade. I knew he
was younger, but he's not like wildly athletic. He had
not had a great season to that point either. But
it leaves me in a spot where it's like, it
seems very possible that just looking at the writing on
the wall, I'll put it this way, between him and
Tibbs and having hope in one versus the other, I
(17:52):
think the Knicks would have been smart to have more
faith than TIBs than Gianna should have faith in the Bucks.
So we saw the way that the Knicks I mean,
maybe honest we'll ask out. But I think that's the
question that everybody's waiting on, is like if he does,
does everyone want to get involved? Does he have a
very clear place that he'd like to go or a
place or two that he'd like to go, And then
(18:13):
if you're the Knicks, like how would you try to
make it work? Because you know, obviously it would probably
have to involve someone like kat to make it happen.
It's just such a big salary thing, and the Knicks
have such big blocks of salary devoted to two or
three guys that you're.
Speaker 3 (18:26):
Probably not moving. You're not going to move Jailing to
get that done.
Speaker 2 (18:30):
Obviously, would you move Kat would you move Og to
get something like that done if that was something that
the Bucks wanted back. But it's going to be a
tough pill to swallow for Milwaukee because you know they
don't want to do that unless they absolutely have to.
Speaker 1 (18:43):
And the other big name, Phoenix just hired their coach today.
The other big name, obviously is Kevin Durant. What do
you think is going to wind up happening for him?
I could see him getting to the Knicks. You know,
they're talking about Karl Anthony again, and you know Kevin
Booker and Phoenix and all that stuff. You know, you
(19:03):
always got to give up to get and get to
give and all that stuff. But where would you say
he would be the best situation or the most likely
situation for Durant?
Speaker 3 (19:11):
Man, I don't I'm so curious whether you like that
fit or not.
Speaker 2 (19:15):
I mean, I Katie is older, and the one thing
I will say I like about the.
Speaker 3 (19:20):
Knicks, and then I feel like it's getting lost in
all this.
Speaker 2 (19:23):
They accomplished what they accomplished in year one with this
group with no real offseason to work together, as you
and I were alluding to, with no real I'm not
gonna say adjustments, but like they hit a lot until
the postseason. We saw no Mitchell Robinson until the last
twenty games of the season. We didn't really see them
switch a lot until the fourth time they played the Celtics,
(19:46):
and then in the playoffs against the Celtics, and they
still ended up two games out of the finals, two
wins away from the finals, so they're not dead in
the water. But part of what I appreciate about them
is that they're young enough, Like this is a group
and a core that all kind of fits together age wise.
Katie breaks that and he's a great player.
Speaker 3 (20:07):
Still. I don't want to blame his team's feelings.
Speaker 2 (20:10):
On him, because that's not fair, but I don't I
don't think I would love that fit. Like obviously, when
he was trying to pick a team before and he
went to Brooklyn, I think the timing on that would
have been.
Speaker 3 (20:22):
Perfect, But I don't think that now.
Speaker 2 (20:25):
If you could take Katie in the way he's playing
right now and make him three years younger, sure at
thirty three, at thirty six, I don't think.
Speaker 3 (20:32):
I don't think I love that. Do you? How would
you feel about it?
Speaker 4 (20:36):
No?
Speaker 1 (20:36):
I agree, because it's like he's still sick. But you
know you're all in, you know, and it's going to happen,
and you're going to give up a lot. Are you
a diet? Like are you considering yourself a Knicks fan?
I know you covered the league, but where's your head?
Speaker 3 (20:49):
No?
Speaker 2 (20:49):
No, I mean like when I covered when I first
started covering the NBA, you were mentioning, I'm from Michigan.
Speaker 3 (20:55):
I went to Michigan. I'm from Chicago. Originally.
Speaker 2 (20:58):
I grew up at the like the tail end of
the Jordan era, so I was a fan as a kid.
I didn't even know what I was watching or you know,
like I didn't even know anything about.
Speaker 3 (21:05):
The Knicks at that time as far as their rivalry.
I was too young. But I don't care.
Speaker 2 (21:10):
I think to me, and I don't think this is
true of everybody or even most people, the fandom for
me kind of dies like covering the game because I
find myself rooting for good stories, like something an outcome
that will help me to write a better story, or
something that's interesting. I just got married, and so I
kind of was rooting during the off season for like
(21:31):
the series to just be short. However they played out
so I could get back to my wife and whatnot.
I don't really care who wins or loses. Like I
love the passion of the Knicks fans. I obviously spend
a lot of time around them and think it's cool
as hell when you guys win a series and people
are climbing up.
Speaker 3 (21:46):
Poles and whatnot. I don't really care.
Speaker 2 (21:49):
I mean I root sometimes for players to land in
good situations because it makes teams in the league more interesting.
Like so the fan in me, like just a basketball
fan of me, not like a fan of a team,
would love to see Katie with the Knicks because it's
like it it just kind of goes all in further
because it's like, well, if that doesn't work, and two
(22:10):
years ago by and now it's thirty eight, like now
what are you doing?
Speaker 3 (22:13):
And now what did you give up?
Speaker 2 (22:14):
I thought it was fascinating that they went all in
for Bridges that they went all in for towns for
those same reasons.
Speaker 1 (22:20):
We went all in with Bridges they did.
Speaker 2 (22:22):
And I remember I asked him a media day, not
media did his h Yeah, it was media day the
introductory press conference for him. I said, Michael, I know
this is not your problem necessarily, but like, what do
you make of the idea that they gave up five
picks for you? Like, because I know that that on
some level as the organization saying they trust you and
(22:44):
they trust the fit that you're going to have with
this group, but also it put it's gonna put a
target on your back every time you don't play well.
And I didn't word it that directly, but I said, like,
what do you make of that? He's like, man, I'm
just kind of here to do my job, and like
he's like that he's not gonna make a big deal
out of it. But I remember we all knew that
when like I and immediately the first question that came
(23:05):
in my mind is kind of someone who's stat heavy.
I was like, I can guarantee you there've never been
that many picks given up for someone that's never made
an All Star team, and they haven't so He's one
of one in that way, and he did make up
for it on some level in the playoffs. He also
had some duds in the playoffs, but he made some
really big plays. He seemed more comfortable, and it seemed
like he was playing, if not harder than he was
(23:25):
a little bit more physical in the playoffs than he
was during the regular season, because I felt like watching
him in the regular season, even watching him in the preseason,
I was like washing him up close every game. I
now see how he stays healthy to some extent because
he does not run through screens, like he does not
finish at the basket. He pulls up and you know
he'd go six or seven games without a trip to
(23:46):
the line, and it's like he protects his body, which
is smart for what he does and what he prioritizes.
But they need a little bit more from him, especially
get considering they gave up five picks, you have to
imagine they thought he was going to be a perfect
fit to go that many draft picks.
Speaker 4 (24:01):
For him the finals.
Speaker 1 (24:20):
What do you see in this matchup? And also this
is probably I don't know someone you know in the
modern era, definitely the two smallest markets to make it
to the finals far recently. What do you think about
the matchup and what do you think about the fact
that two small markets, you know, quote unquote small markets
made it to the finals.
Speaker 3 (24:40):
I think the matchup itself is really fun.
Speaker 2 (24:43):
I mean, these are the two teams that the last
two three four months of the year had the best
record in the league, between okay See and then obviously Indiana.
They are teams that play very fun styles, and I
think people have the not everybody. You kind of rightly
ask like, where are you getting that impression from. I
(25:04):
don't necessarily think it's everybody, but I do think that
a large portion of fans, even ones that love the sport,
are quick to label a matchup as boring if they
either don't recognize the stars, don't recognize the teams, or
taking it a step further, it's just see teams that
are from small markets and they're like, I don't want that.
(25:24):
I mean, okay See had a historic season, a historic
point differential. They look every bit the part of Golden
State when they first started their dynasty. There is almost
no difference statistically between what they're doing and this year
versus what the Warriors did their first year of that group,
(25:46):
I think that group was sixty seven and fifteen and
this team is sixty eight and fourteen for the season.
The point differentials are similar. They both had an MVP,
they both had a really good second guy, and Clay
and here Jalen Williams just nasty sort of layers to
this team. They're They're as dominant defensively as any team
(26:07):
I've seen in my time covering the league, and I
think even going back further than that.
Speaker 3 (26:11):
So they're great. But the Pacers are really great too.
Speaker 2 (26:14):
I worry a little bit whether the Pacers will be
able to stay really competitive for a full series. I mean,
we've obviously seen them give everybody else. But I told
my close friend the other day, a diehard basketball fan,
I said, Mark has been I don't make any I
think you even clocked it in a minute ago, Like,
I'm not the biggest on making really bold predictions, but
I was like, I think I've seen enough from Oksey
(26:35):
at this point to think that even in this era
where we've had seven new champions in a row, I
think they're going to win three out of the next five.
And my best my best friend was like, Bro, you're
wild and I don't think so, because think about it,
the reason that most teams can't do it right now
is that Apron and the luxury taxes and everything else.
Like the minute you win, you've got to start thinking
(26:57):
about how to tear the roster down so that you
don't end up too far in the time.
Speaker 3 (27:00):
It's too expensive.
Speaker 2 (27:01):
The Celtics won last year's title and a week after
that they were putting the team up for sale, which
was wild but tells you like, it's too expensive for
even owners to want to really do this. I say
all of that to say the Thunder aren't having those
problems yet. So, yeah, they've got Shay, He's an MVP,
Supermax all that stuff. Their next two best players are
(27:24):
I think twenty three and twenty two, and so they're
still in their first contract. They're not up against a
luxury tax, they're not up against an Apron. They have
what four different guys that all could realistically be all
defense players.
Speaker 3 (27:41):
Obviously Caruso. Cruso was guarding sinners reliably during the playoffs.
Speaker 2 (27:46):
Jalen Williams, when Chet and Isaiah Hartenstein were still hurt,
was guarding sinners and had one of the best rint
protection rates in the league. As a two guard, I
really stop two guard. But a two guard that doesn't
even count Scheit, that doesn't even count Hartenstein. But you've
got two guards that can play center at moments. You've
got Shay who is among the league leaders in deflections,
(28:09):
You've got lou dort Man. It's just it's too much defense,
I think for most teams to deal with. And I
think the biggest part is they still have a boatload
of picks. So even if they did start having financial pressure,
Heart and SIGDN obviously is a thirty million dollar contract.
Speaker 3 (28:22):
Other guys are gonna.
Speaker 2 (28:23):
Get paid soon ish, but you could always flip those
and go bring in someone younger who fits you perfectly.
With all those picks you have, I really don't think
they're going to run up against the financial pressures that
everybody else is having over the last five years. I
think it would mean that they have to win this
year and probably next year. But I think that there's
a good chance that they get at least two and
(28:44):
I would put money on three out of the next five.
Speaker 3 (28:46):
I really, wow, I really would.
Speaker 1 (28:47):
All right, I got to mark that down. Oh my
last question for you is so much is changing with
the media rights TNT and did their show. I'm not
even exactly sure. I'm so confused, and I don't have
to worry about it for a few months. I'm not
exactly sure where to watch NBA? Next year they got Amazon,
NBC is going to be d Can you explain us
(29:11):
to us again? It's early next October. Where are we
watching the NBA? And where is Shaq, Kenny Charles and
Aernie gonna wind up? I'm confused.
Speaker 2 (29:21):
I'm pretty sure they're gonna end up with my network.
They're going to and it is confusing. To be fair
to you, I think that those guys are going to
have a licensing deal with ESPN where they still work
for Turner, but obviously Turner doesn't have rights anymore, so
they're going to license that ability to show it through ESPN.
And that I read the other day it's obviously just
(29:42):
a report, but that they're going to have like a
postgame show on ESPN and they're trying to figure out
how to make it work with Scott Vin Pelt so
that they can have a full postgame show but also
involve Ben Pelt. And I think Van Pelt reportedly is
like being gracious enough to say, like they can have
some of my time if it means that we get
to work together, that they to got to do their thing.
So that's my understanding of it. I think it's NBC.
(30:04):
I think it's Amazon. I know I'm missing another one.
Speaker 1 (30:07):
I know ESPN, say Netflix, like I have Christmas Games or.
Speaker 3 (30:10):
Something like that, something weird like that.
Speaker 2 (30:11):
Like, I'll be honest, that's one of my least favorite
things about a lot of stuff that I watch now,
where it's like you have to kind of cobble together
everything with all your streaming services, which feels like a
cable plan at that point once you've done all that.
But I think people are going to have to have
a couple of different ones to make it work. It
is a little frustrating.
Speaker 1 (30:27):
So is there not going to be any more NBA
package where you're just like you're in the NB, like
if it's all those three or four places, you know
you have to like hobble back and hobble this, and
that's kind of.
Speaker 3 (30:38):
Crazy, it is.
Speaker 2 (30:40):
I worry that there's not going to be one because
I think, to your point, what would the motivation be
like if you're NBC and you want to get your
money back for having paid whatever chunk of the billions
of dollars that this is going to cost. You want
people to log onto your app or to your channel specifically,
not period something that's going to be like a you know,
a hodgepodge, like, oh, we all take a slice of it.
(31:01):
You want your money. So I don't know how it works.
I've always wondered that.
Speaker 3 (31:04):
I know.
Speaker 2 (31:06):
I want to say to your question that that's something
that Dolan has complained about himself too, of like you're
watering down the value of the media rights steals that
we're signing as individual markets by having all these different
groups involved and wanting to take more and more games
and make them national. It's not fair to us, you know,
like it waters down the value of the individual games
(31:28):
we want to show. So it's certainly interesting, I'll tell
you that. And it's I don't quite know exactly how
it's going to work either. I think a lot of
us are confused, and it'll probably make more sense once
it's up and running.
Speaker 3 (31:39):
But yeah, it's a weird time.
Speaker 2 (31:41):
And also like NBC is going to have Michael Jordan,
Like I can't imagine he's going to make more than
one or two appearances on that network, I would be
so surprised.
Speaker 3 (31:49):
I would be stunned.
Speaker 1 (31:50):
I know that's going to be crazy. I like, what
is he going to do? Like he like they're gonna
like ship them in, like he comes like on a
space ship, like bro.
Speaker 2 (31:58):
I can't imagine this anything but like tape content, Like
I can't imagine I'm just going to have him sitting
there on a panel because I feel like everybody will
be hanging on every word the man says, you know,
like I can't imagine.
Speaker 3 (32:09):
I really, I don't know.
Speaker 2 (32:10):
I'd have to see it to believe it, Like I
would be stunned if it's more than once or twice,
because it was also so bigue the way they mentioned it,
like it sounded like they did not have it all
the way ironed out. Because also, what are you paying
him to do that? Like he doesn't need the money.
So I'll be curious to.
Speaker 1 (32:23):
See because I thought Tom Brady was going to be
like that sort of you know, Jedi thing. But me personally,
I like the way he was covering the games. Obviously
people nitpick everything about because Tom Brady and all that stuff,
but I thought he made a good transition. I feel
like Mike is still in you know, Air Jordan mode,
and you know Tom Brady, you see a different side
of him since he retired, kind of like Alex Rodriguez,
(32:45):
you were like, who is this person? I don't know
if that person exists in Michael Jordans, I don't know
what they're going.
Speaker 3 (32:50):
To do it.
Speaker 2 (32:50):
I was older man, like those other guys were still
closer to having gotten out of the league, like Michael's
had twenty years damn near to like just kind of
sit and I we'll see, Like he just hasn't ever
been required to say much to your point, like not
necessarily of a controversial nature, but just like he I
just feel like him talking at all.
Speaker 1 (33:11):
Good or bad. He just doesn't say much, like you know,
whether he loves it or doesn't like it.
Speaker 3 (33:15):
So I'd be surprised.
Speaker 2 (33:16):
But I could imagine that they have like pre recorded
content with him where maybe he's talking about teams or something.
Speaker 3 (33:23):
I also could have seen for a while.
Speaker 2 (33:24):
I think it's a little late to jump in with this,
but like Kobe was doing those things for ESPN where
he would like break down the intricacies of the game.
Speaker 3 (33:32):
He really cared.
Speaker 2 (33:33):
About that stuff. I'm not sure to what extent Michael does.
But again, Kobe wasn't nearly as far removed. Kobe was
a year or two out of the league at that point.
Michael's been gone for so long that we're different. We're
in a completely different era a basketball so but either way,
I guarantee you that me and probably most of us
are going to want to at least see it and
be curious to see it, because, like you said, he
so rarely speaks.
Speaker 1 (33:54):
So I'm down Chris again. I love your book Blood
in the Garden. Are you working on anything else outside
of covering a free ESPN? Are you working on a
love book?
Speaker 3 (34:03):
I am man, I'm man.
Speaker 2 (34:04):
It's coming along so slowly, and I'm so embarrassed. I
am working on another book. It is on another team.
I'm not at a point yet where i want to
say exactly who it is, but it's.
Speaker 3 (34:14):
About the more modern era.
Speaker 2 (34:16):
Some people have asked me, They're like, are you doing
a nextbook, a second nextbook on this era? I was like,
somebody beat me to the punch on that, so somebody
else will, but mine will be on a more modern team,
like over the last twenty years that I'll work on
that I'm excited about, but still pretty far away from finishing.
Speaker 3 (34:31):
So I'm excited about that.
Speaker 2 (34:33):
I'm curious whether it will have the appeal that the
k nextbook did. Knicks fans are one of one as
far as just how many of them there are, how
passionate they are. I think people were excited to read
about the book that I did because that was such
a beloved team.
Speaker 3 (34:47):
So we'll have to see whether.
Speaker 2 (34:49):
We'll have to see what it was so good too,
Thanks brother, appreciate you like this.
Speaker 3 (34:52):
We'll have to see whether it was funny.
Speaker 2 (34:54):
Because when I was looking at Second Ideas, I was like, Man,
is there any other team Lakers aside that I can
really write about that has a fan base like that?
And maybe some do like also, that hasn't been so
delved into our like the Bulls obviously have been kind
of between docs and everything else. So it's hard to
find any team or any situation that people care that
deeply about with that many people caring about it. But
(35:17):
I hope people really liked it. When I'm done with it,
probably still at least the other year two wagh though,
all right.
Speaker 1 (35:21):
Cool, well, Chris I appreciate you joining me on the
Iron Rapports Stereo podcast. I appreciate your time.
Speaker 3 (35:26):
I man, absolutely man, I appreciate you having me. Thank
you for everything.
Speaker 1 (35:31):
All right, I want to thank my guest, Chris Herring,
senior NBA writer for EESP and again. Knicks fans, you
should absolutely check out his book New York Times bestseller
Blood in the Garden. Miles Jordan ak The Bleach Brothers
aka the Dust Brothers. Take me out of with something
real nice, tikety, take me out of here with something
(35:53):
real loud, but most importantly, take me out it with
something super duper funky. Time Rapports Stereo Podcast. I'm out
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