September 20, 2025 • 40 mins
If more people had open relationships, would there be fewer divorces? That's the question Jana Kramer is asking influencer Danielle, who's been in an open marriage for 15 years.
From what boundaries she has set with her spouse, to FaceTiming women that go on dates with her husband (seriously!) - Danielle is "openly committed" and explains the good and the bad that come with participating in ethical non-monogamy.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:15):
It's I Do Part two and I'm one of your hosts,
Jane Kramer. And usually on this podcast we are talking
about people that are in their chapter two looking for
love again after divorce. But what if the key to
not getting divorced is ethical non monogamy. We're going to
dive into this today. My guest is documenting her experience
with an open marriage through her social media Openly Committed.
Please welcome Danielle to the podcast. Danielle, thank you so
(00:40):
much for coming on I Do Part two. We really
appreciate you coming on. And you know, I have to
say it's interesting because you know, we've got different hosts
for different guests. And when I got sent your rundown,
I was like, oh, this is funny. I know why
they picked me. I was like cuz I was like
this girl was like huge joke. iHeart I like it.
Speaker 2 (01:02):
Why did they pick you? Now? I need to know.
Speaker 1 (01:04):
Well, so I my last husband very happily married now,
but my ex husband was have multiple, multiple multiple affairs
in our marriage, and so I have quite an opinion
when it comes around when it comes to uh cheating.
(01:26):
And you know, I've I've spoken to people before that
have been in open relationships. And again, I just come
from a place of I don't know how that works
when I've been in something. But mine was so different, right,
because mine was a lot of lying and deceit, and
it seems like in an open marriage there is more
(01:51):
communication around it.
Speaker 2 (01:52):
So there's I have a lot of opinions about cheating too.
Speaker 1 (01:54):
So okay, great, well let's start there. So let me
let me let me hear your opinions on cheating.
Speaker 2 (02:00):
Yeah, I mean, I think the definition of cheating is
betrayal and is lying. And I think so often I've
ended up talking to hundreds of people exploring open relationships
for multiple reasons. And the thing that I've heard from
people who've been cheated on is they look back on
the periods of time where they were cheated on and
they don't know what part was real and what what
part to believe and what was true, And all of
(02:22):
a sudden they're in a situation where they can't they
doubt huge chunks of the relationship. And what a terrible, heartbreaking,
untrusting place to be in. And I'd be curious, you know,
how you how you felt after kind of going through
a betrayal, And so I think when when my husband
brought up the idea of an open relationship, and he
(02:43):
brought up the idea about two to three months into dating, very.
Speaker 1 (02:45):
Early on, oh before even being married.
Speaker 2 (02:48):
Oh yeah, yeah, we'd been dating for two months when
he brought up the idea of exploring an open relationship.
Neither of us had ever been in an open relationship before.
We had no idea what we were doing. This is
like twenty ten. You didn't have TikTok influencers and blogs
about the topic back then, and so it was something
that we were going to explore. But his reasoning for
(03:09):
exploring an open relationship is that he had seen affairs
destroy families, destroy people's confidence, and he wanted to affair
proof our relationship. That was his initial reasoning for bringing
up an open relationship in the first place. And so
I think it can be a wonderful way to have
transparency and truth in a relationship, but it does not
(03:31):
work for everyone, and there are there are cheaters and
open relationships too. Like being an open relationship is not
carte blanche to cheat, We just define cheating differently, and
we establish rules and boundaries that have to be equally
respected the same way they wouldn't a monogamous relationship.
Speaker 1 (03:47):
For those that haven't followed along with your journey on
social media, do you discuss the boundaries around an open
relationship in your marriage?
Speaker 2 (03:58):
I do, yes. So we've had rules that have evolved
over the years, and I don't think that there's a
common rule set or agreement subset set that you know,
every open relationship, every couple follows. They're always different. And
so I think one of the things that we did,
what we spent the first two years of our open
(04:19):
relationship doing, is figuring out like, Okay, what are our rules,
you know, are how are we going to define our rules?
How do we define safe sex, how do we for
each other and eventually with other people? How do we
have really difficult conversations, you know, how do we define cheating?
I think that that one's really important. And then also
setting the goals of like what do we eventually want
this relationship to be? And I think that happens no
(04:41):
matter what relationship you're in, but you're if you're in
an open relationship, you really have to have those conversations
because you're essentially deciding to not follow the set standard
monogamous guidebook that society and culture and religion have kind
of set for us.
Speaker 1 (04:58):
Have you seen the movie Splitsville? I haven't got to Johnson.
Speaker 2 (05:01):
Oh, okay, I really really want to. I definitely need.
Speaker 1 (05:04):
To, Okay, because it is, you know, about having an
open marriage. So Dakota Johnson's marriage, her husband wanted, you know,
to have this open marriage. But it's interesting because they
don't They don't tell the other person that they're having sex.
They just kind of assume, like when he goes away
for his work trip in New York, that he's most
(05:26):
likely with someone. But it created this no I wouldn't
want to say, well, I guess jealousy, but also this
insecurity that he's choosing to leave our home to go
be with someone else. So do those feelings come up
when your husband wants to go be with somebody else?
Speaker 2 (05:44):
So you're talking to me after I've been doing this
for fifteen years, So I think that's a pretty big
difference between you know, our agreements and the way that
I felt early on in our relationship when we were
new not only to being open, but also like new
to our relationship. Sure, and you know, we had a
lot more of those those insecurities and jealousies. I experienced
(06:05):
a ton of jealousy the first couple of years of
opening up. And now, you know, we've been together for
fifteen years. We've been open that entire time. I talk
abouts now as we've had phases. We've had phases of polyamory,
phases being open, we've had phases of monogamy. You know,
but we've been together for fifteen years and so we
you know, are the types of jealousy that I experience
(06:26):
are very different. I wish I'd seen the movie so
that I could right.
Speaker 1 (06:30):
But for you, like in the beginning, did it make
you well? First of all? Like in the very beginning
when he brought it up, did that make you sad?
Or was it something where you thought, Okay, I like
this guy. I'm going to fall in line with what
he wants to do, because it was or is that
something that you wanted to do?
Speaker 2 (06:44):
No? I was, I was like, what the fuck? Oh wait,
I thought I'd met my guy. I thought I'd met
the one, my prince in shining armor, except you know
modern times. So we were on a ski slope, right
and I, you know, I met this guy. We had
instant chemistry. We had this sort of whirlwind, wonderful, you know,
(07:04):
like rom come worthy first couple of months of dating,
and then I feel like he you know, I feel
like this idea exploring an open relationship came out of nowhere.
And what's so funny is like the words he used
were probably were probably along the lines of like, Hey,
I have this idea. It's something I want to explore.
Would you be open to considering an open relationship. It
(07:27):
wasn't an ultimatum. It wasn't even a like I want
to do this. It was let's explore this. And even
that made me feel angry, pissed off, embarrassed, Like, all
of a sudden, I tell my friends that this guy
that I thought was the one now I want to
explore an open relationship.
Speaker 1 (07:43):
Get to me, that'd be a huge red flag. I'd
be like, oh, so you just want to cheat on me,
So then why have you in a relationship?
Speaker 2 (07:49):
Yeah, But that's where I started to like, that's absolutely
where I started to I think where I started to
come around to the idea is that it was something
that we were just exploring. We spent a year, You're
just doing research and talking about it, and you know, like,
what could this look like. And I understood his why,
which was, like, you know, he wanted to affair proof
the relationship. That's where it started for him. And at
(08:10):
that time, I didn't have a why, Like I didn't
have a very clear why I want to be in
an open relationship. I do now. I'm bisexual. I enjoy
dating both men and women. I find this incredible level
of freedom. I feel like my partner enables me to
have a bigger life than I would if it was,
you know, just just the two of us. I feel
like we've created a relationship that's really tailored to us
(08:33):
and nobody else. And I see, you know this, I
see this open relationship of ours is now kind of
more of a mindset than anything else. You know, we're
we're going to figure things out. We're going to change
as our desires do, as our libidos do, as our
interest and other people do. Is the things that we
want to explore do, and our relationship has enough flexibility
to kind of evolve as we do. I couldn't have
(08:54):
told you that fifteen years ago. I was like, what right?
Speaker 1 (08:59):
Who was he? The first person to step out though?
And I guess it's not stepping out when you're technically
signing up for it, but.
Speaker 2 (09:06):
We took baby steps. It's interesting I think seeing open
relationships portrayed in films and movies and so film and
TV nowadays, and even on social media, and also so
many people I've talked to in this process because I
think people are like, Okay, great, let's explore an open relationship.
And then it's like they go and have a threesome
or like they go and like have a relationship with
someone else for a weekend. I was like, wow, it
(09:27):
feels like you're jumping into a deep end with sharks.
In our case, we talked about it. I kissed someone,
We talked about it. He kissed someone, We talked about it.
I went on a date and didn't do anything, and
we talked about it, and then he did, and then
we talked about it. And we went to a swingers
club but didn't do anything, and we talked about Then
we went to swingers club and did a few things,
then talked about it. You know, there was for us,
it was definitely a progression and of baby steps where
(09:49):
we were constantly checking in, Okay, how do you feel
how even little things like he kissed someone? It was like,
how do I feel about the fact that he kissed someone?
And I had to actually go through that entire process.
I was like, Okay, him kissing someone else doesn't take
away from him kissing me. He had an experience that
kind of brought him joy, and how do I feel
(10:09):
about that? You know? And so I think that with
taking those baby step per aggressions, we were able to
kind of tiptoe into is does this make you uncomfortable? Okay?
Do we want to stop or do we want to
figure something out? Yeah? I don't recommend for anyone opening
up a relationship. I don't recommend, you know, immediately going
(10:31):
off and having another relationship with another person. I feel
like that's too much, too soon, But it definitely happens,
plenty of people do it.
Speaker 1 (10:37):
How much of your fifteen years has it been monogamous?
Speaker 2 (10:40):
Would you think, Oh, that's a good question, about two
years in total, maybe two and a half out of
the fifteen.
Speaker 1 (10:47):
Were those happy years or were those more volatile years?
Or I'm curious, like what the difference between when you
were monogamous and when you guys were with other partners?
Speaker 2 (10:58):
Yeah, I think that so, as I said, fifteen years
of our relationship there have been. So we had a
phase of monogamy when my son was born, because I
don't know if you're a parent or your parent.
Speaker 1 (11:10):
Yes, I've got three kids. We've got three kids and
a step son.
Speaker 2 (11:14):
So you probably know that when your kids are young,
you don't have enough time to like sleep or date
each other.
Speaker 1 (11:20):
I'm exhausted exactly.
Speaker 2 (11:23):
Yeah, you're like, I I'm if I can get dinner
on a table like half the nights of the week.
So that phase of monogamy I think was just kind
of natural. You know. There was all We're so excited
to be parents. We wanted to spend so much time together,
so much time with our son, and I think we
kind of woke up one day and we're like, oh,
(11:44):
we've been monogamous for a year. Cool, that was it.
It was not a big deal.
Speaker 1 (11:50):
I'm sorry, I'm astericking real fast, so I don't forget.
How do you what do you tell how old your kid?
Speaker 2 (11:56):
Our son is eleven, my daughter elevens sweet?
Speaker 1 (12:00):
Sweet? So when they're older, is this something that you
guys are going to tell them? Because obviously your stuff
is on social media, so they're going to be watching
social media. So is it something that I mean, have
you talked to them about it? Or are you going
to or what are you going to say? And then
what are you I guess modeling then for what a
marriage looks like and for their values and opinions around
(12:23):
it all.
Speaker 2 (12:24):
Yeah, so my son already knows. We told him about
a year and a bit ago. It was. I mean,
it was a pretty easy casual conversation at that time.
And I think I think there's a couple of things. So,
first of all, my children know better than anyone else
how much my husband and I love each other. They
see it every day and they're raised in the household
with it every day, and they do not see us
(12:47):
dating other people. And it sounds like you're divorced.
Speaker 1 (12:50):
I'm married now. Oh, you're married now, but you asked
to a lovely man, Yes, the man that cheated. I
do have two kids with and then one with the new.
Speaker 2 (13:00):
How long did it take you to introduce your new
partner to your existing kids?
Speaker 1 (13:04):
Oh? Man, let's see oct I met in October, November, December, January.
But three and a half months.
Speaker 2 (13:10):
Oh, interesting, we actually waited. We wait longer than that. Yeah,
So if we're in serious relationships with someone else, which
has only happened twice in our fifteen years.
Speaker 1 (13:18):
Oh, so you introduce them to people that you're with.
Speaker 2 (13:21):
We've introduced them as friends of friends.
Speaker 1 (13:23):
We got it, got it in using But.
Speaker 2 (13:25):
I mean, it takes a long time to introduce someone
that's an important part of your life to your children.
And it took us, you know, we waited I think
five and then six months to introduce anyone to our kids.
But when we told our son, and we told him like,
Mom and we love each other very much, we're in
an open relationship. What we have other people we really
care about. We have other people that we have feelings for,
(13:48):
and one of them you've met. And so then we
were able to say, like this person who you've met
in the past, who was introduced as a friend of
the family, you know you had a great experience with
that person, Like that's someone that mom and didn't care
about as well. So I think it's we're pretty Oh
it's funny. These feel like such hard conversations to have
(14:10):
without a lot of content, without the entire context. But
I think that when we tell our son what we're
modeling to answer your question, like what do we model
for our kids. We're very careful with what we tell
them and when. What we're telling our son when he's ten,
when he was ten, which is when we told him,
will be a little bit different than the conversations we
(14:31):
have with him when he's eighteen. Right when we introduce
our children to people that we were dating, which again
has only happened twice as a friend of a family member,
because honestly, it's kind of true. It's true. It's someone
like we care about, it's someone we would love to
introduce to our children. But we're careful how we do that.
The way that we talk to our children is about
(14:51):
love and about relationships and about caring for people. We're
not talking to our children about sex. We don't talk
to about our children about our sex lives. It's not
like we're going to talk to them about like sex
lives with other people. Well, it's crazy, and I think
that long term, the thing that I hope to model
for my kids is that you know, we're in a
relationship that works for us that took us a long
time to figure out, that we constantly support each other
(15:13):
through all these huge changes, and we're also kind of
living pretty authentically and we figured out a relationship that
allows us to do so. And I'm hoping that by
living this authentically and like, by by creating the relationship
that works for me, my kids will not only feel
like they have permission to do so themselves, but they'll
(15:34):
see it. They'll see that, oh, mom and dad did it.
I can definitely do this too, no matter what that
looks like for my kids.
Speaker 1 (15:50):
Okay, So what happens if you so these people that
you have introduced your kids to obviously were someone that
was they you said you were dating. What happens if
you really catch feelings and you want to be with
just them?
Speaker 2 (16:05):
I guess we'll figure it out.
Speaker 1 (16:06):
Is that something you guys have talked about or we.
Speaker 2 (16:09):
Have definitely talked about. It's only once where my husband
was dating someone and we had the conversations like what
if she lived with us? Like, okay, how would that
look like? But it wasn't something she was interested in
and could it happen? Yeah? But I guess there's also
this thing, is like, if either of us fell in
love with someone else and loved that person more than
(16:31):
each other, would we go and be monogamous with that person?
Probably not? I mean, we're in an open relationship. We've been.
I know that people use the terms open relationship and polyamory.
I tend to use them interchangeably. But if I was
feeling if I was polyamorous, So if I was in
a romantic, committed relationship with someone else as well as
(16:52):
a romantic committed relationship with my husband, we would figure
out how that works. It's hard for me to imagine
leaving this incredible life that I've built with my husband
and our kids and our family for someone else, given
the fact that, for lack of a better word, I
get to have both.
Speaker 1 (17:09):
Right. But here's my question, though, I guess, and I'm
sure you hear this all the time too, is why
be married at all? Then?
Speaker 2 (17:16):
I want it to be, But.
Speaker 1 (17:17):
You're not with that just that person marriage is if
you I mean, I guess, let's I don't know the
actual definition is, but to me, it's the married to
one person, and you're I don't know, I mean, maybe
that's the old school mentality with it, where it's like,
I guess you're changing with the typical old school version
(17:39):
of what a marriage is.
Speaker 2 (17:41):
Yeah, I think that is what we're doing, and I
think you're seeing it. I think you're seeing it more
and more nowadays. You're seeing a lot of people who,
you know, feel like their gender is very fluid, their
sexuality is very fluid. And so for someone who is
expressing you know, bisexuality, pan sexuality and feels like they're
you know, their generous fluid or they then also expected
(18:02):
to only be in a monogamous married relationship as their goal.
You know, I think that the constructs and the goals
of relationships are going to look very different ten years
from now for this upcoming generation. I think that I
don't know about you, but I'm forty one, so I
feel like I'm sort of in that in between phase
between you know, my parents' generation and their definition of
(18:25):
what a really great marriage looks like and what the
next generation is going to look like. And I guess
I guess an to flip it on, to turn this
on its head. Do you think that a marriage is
more than sexual exclusivity?
Speaker 1 (18:40):
Do I think a marriage is more than sexual exclusivity?
Speaker 2 (18:44):
Do you think that sexual exclusivity is the most important
thing to marry.
Speaker 1 (18:48):
In a marriage? Yeah? Interesting, Okay, I do, But again
that's my how I was. I guess brought up thinking that,
I mean, my parents, it's got divorced because my dad cheated.
You know, So what is marriage a man and a
woman staying faithfully together. I guess that's my yeah, and
(19:09):
then just to get the old school values around it all.
But again, I've messed up many times where I'm not
messed up, but I've I've had had multiple marriages because
you know, I've been trying to find that marriage that
I ideal, that I dreamt of as a as a
gal girl. Right, So I've married the wrong people in
(19:32):
that quest, but I do I personally could never open
up a marriage, and I love having conversations with people,
you know that have different differing views and opinions, and
I see how it can work for other people. I personally,
going through what I've been through with my ex, I
don't see a world where, you know, Even Alan and
(19:55):
I joked when we were in the car after watching
splits Pille and I'm like, I don't mean to be
closed off around it. I was like, but if you
ever came to me with that, there's just no way
in hell I would be okay with it, like ever.
And he's like, He's like, same, you know, but you know,
I do think there were some people that can work.
And what are you know, for you guys, how has
(20:17):
it made you guys stronger in your marriage having this
open relationship?
Speaker 2 (20:22):
So I would say that right now you're seeing in
the US, I think it's four to five percent of
the US population rec is consensually non monogamous, So it
means that like ninety five percent of the population is monogamous. Like,
monogamy is what works for most people, and I think
so to your question was like, kind of what makes
(20:44):
it work for us?
Speaker 1 (20:46):
Yeah, well, how how has it strengthened your marriage? You know,
like what is what is the positive you know in it?
Speaker 2 (20:52):
I think the positive for us is I mean, I
will say the level of transparency, you know, And I
think that the kind of going back to the betrayal,
right when I when my husband brought the idea and said,
let's a fair proof the relationship, one of the biggest
conversations that we had was like complete transparency and how
important that was to us. And I think even if
(21:14):
we decided to be monogamous, like even if we'd gone
through this whole process of exploring an open relationship and
then a couple of years in decide, you know what
we want to be in monigamous, which is absolutely an
option on the table. I think that we would have
really learned a couple of things about our relationship anyway,
which is how important transparency is. It's like, I do
I want to know if you're attracted to someone, if
you're hanging out with friends, Like I want to like
(21:38):
have that level of detail because I care about you.
Speaker 1 (21:42):
Well, it's a level of deep honesty too, and like
really knowing your partner because there's so many closeted people.
I'm not just talking about their preferences, but when it
comes to them not knowing what their fetishes are or
they're you know what I mean, because they're too afraid
to say anything exactly or be judged or yeah.
Speaker 2 (22:01):
I mean this is that again. Kind of going on
that note, you know, I think in my mid thirties
there were things that I wanted to try sexually, and
because we have this level of transparency, it was really
easy for me to go to my partner be like,
so I have an idea.
Speaker 1 (22:17):
Yeah, totally, I could say how that'd be so liberating
and open and free and then being so connected because deep,
true transparency and honesty is the most connective thing for couples.
Speaker 2 (22:30):
Absolutely, and I feel like that at its foundation has
nothing to do with the relationship style. Monogamous not monagamous,
doesn't matter. I feel like I get to go to
my partner and say there's something I want to try.
I'm feeling this, I feel you know, I desire this.
I'm not feeling desirable. I want to try this thing
that's new. I want to be pushed outside of my
comfort zone. And I think the difference with my partner
(22:51):
and I is most of those things, like we will
kind of figure out together, but there is this element
which is like, okay, Danielle, Like, if I wanted to
try something that my husband doesn't necessarily want to or
doesn't enjoy, then I have an opportunity to go and
explore that and experience that with someone else, and it
(23:11):
could be a friend. Right. I'm a big outdoor enthusiast,
a ski I love hiking. My husband does not. My
husband needs a goal. He's like, oh, we're hiking. We're
hiking from point A to point B. And I'm like, no,
it's about flowers and the views and like experience. He's like, no,
it'd be and so I get to have those experiences, yes,
with my friends who will do all these things with me,
(23:33):
but also I think some other in some other ways,
you know, especially from you'd mentioned kind of like kinks
and getting to explore things outside of your comfort zone.
I get to do that. I get to I kind
of have all of the options available to me, including
the options that my husband might necessarily not be interested in.
Speaker 1 (23:51):
For sure. I have a question when you are exploring
or want to explore something, do you I don't know,
is there apps for this or do you? And then
when when you do meet someone, do you say I
am married? Like you have to go through all that
right obviously that's probably a boundary for your husband.
Speaker 2 (24:10):
Oh yes, So total transparency on my dating profiles, I
say I'm married, I'm not monogamous with two kids. And interestingly,
I think because dating apps have changed so much that
you do have dating apps that are dedicated to the
non monogamous, polyamorous spaces now feel hashtag open. I believe
even some of the other more standard ones have you know,
(24:31):
have drop downs now where you can select interested in
being open, nominogamous, et cetera. So I think that that's
probably right now, the easiest way to kind of to
find people that you're interested in dating. I also kind
of meet a lot of people in real life. I
think one of the things that the thing about being
in an open relationship, I am not always dating. I
(24:52):
think that there's this perception because I'm an oship, Oh
my god, I must be having sex with everybody.
Speaker 1 (24:57):
I was like, No, such a good point.
Speaker 2 (24:59):
I still have enough like years and toast account everybody, Like, seriously, guys,
it's not that crazy and so and I think, what's
but I think what's interesting is that if I do
meet someone, I have a connection, there's no limit to
what that connection could be. You know. It could be
it could be a just really intimate friendship. It could
(25:22):
be a friend with benefits. It could be a comment,
it could be a one night stand, it could be
something that evolves into a deeper relationship. It's like, I'm
very rarely just like on a mission to date and
find someone. That's almost never happened. It's much more that
I get to live life, and then the people that
kind of come into my life, I get to say, like, oh,
(25:44):
is this friends or is this you know, the entire
rainbow of other options that are actually available bull to
me because of my open relationship style.
Speaker 1 (25:54):
Got it? Okay, you have a okay question? Because this
has happened. I know how this has happened to someone before.
But someone had told a girlfriend of mine that they
were in an open marriage, but come to find out
they were not an open marriage, and that was just
what he was saying. So and that's called cheating. Yeah.
Have you run into that where people are on these
(26:15):
sites and they're saying they're in the open marriage, but really,
like you come to find out that this like the
wife or the husband is actually not okay with it.
Speaker 2 (26:23):
I hate that this happens, and it happens so for
anyone listening. So I'm openly committed. Up on social channels,
I talk about my experiences, stories, recommendations for anyone exploring
non monogamy. And I think that this one is a
huge pet peeve of mine because I think that it
really it doesn't endjusice to most people who are in
(26:46):
an open relationship. It's I think it's one of the
things because in open relationships and polyamory are trending. It's
become something that people can say more easily when they're
just cheating, and I hate that that's the case. It
has happened to me twice where you know, would be like, oh,
this is really really interesting. But I think when you've
been in an open relationship for a long time, you
can start to ask questions and then the red flags
(27:08):
go up. So I will always ask someone like, hey, like,
what are your boundaries? You know, what are the things
that are discussed in your existing relationship? What are the
agreements that you have with your partner? And the simple
question is like, does your partner or you're on a
date with me right now. I have dated people who
have what's called a don't ask, don't tell policy in
their relationship, and you just you just ask a couple
(27:28):
more questions. And I have requested to like FaceTime or
text message a partner before. But honestly, if I'm getting
a spider sense that this person's not really open, I'm
not going there. I'm not interested. And I think on
the flip side of it, my husband has been on
dates with women before and they ask to FaceTime me.
Speaker 1 (27:46):
And what is that like? Like? Truthfully, like you're like, hey, Carl,
like what We're like, Yeah, like what there isn't like
a percentage I know, the fifteen year. But okay, so
now let's say at the fifteen year, there isn't like
a little piece that's one percent little jealous.
Speaker 2 (28:04):
Oh oh, of course there is. No. Here's the You
want to know what the arc is?
Speaker 1 (28:08):
Yeah, because I'm like, I know, it's like all fun
and dandy and like you guys are like at this
fifteen like happy and like.
Speaker 2 (28:13):
Fun and we're learning all kinds of new things, especially
like and now I'm public on social media, like that's
feeling jealousy in a whole different way, and all kinds
of new issues and communication tactics. Okay, here's the arc.
If my part, if my husband's going on a date.
At first, like I'll help him get ready and I'll
be like, oh, wear the blue shirt. You look really
good in that one. Like okay, no, no, it's like
you're like you help him get ready for the date.
(28:33):
And then let's say this is all hypothetical, but all
of these things have happened in different different situations. And
then let's say he like he texts me like, oh
the date's going really well. I'm excited. I'm be like yay.
But then I'll be like, wait, hold on a second.
If you're on a date, that means like I'm here
with the kids and they're freaking out and I am
seriously negotiating vegetables while you are on to have a
nice date on a nice date, what the fuck? And
(28:55):
then he'll message me like, hey, can you FaceTime her
really quick? And I'll be like, Okay, no questions, ask
no matter what I'm going through, of course I'm going
to say yes to like a quick FaceTime. You'll do
the face time, and then in my head I'm like, oh,
is she cuter? Is she prettier? Like it's like, what's happening?
And then there'll be this thing is like, oh, my
husband's on a date with a really attractive husband, Like woman,
go him. And then I'll be like wait a minute.
(29:16):
And then, for whatever reason the date doesn't work out.
I'll have this moment of relief, and then I'll be
a little bit annoyed, like I'm sorry, he's amazing. What
the heck were you thinking? Not like continuing a date
with him? So it's like every emotion you can imagine
will prop.
Speaker 1 (29:30):
Child If you went to your husband and said I
don't want to do this anymore. Do you think he
would stay and not do it?
Speaker 2 (29:49):
Absolutely? Yeah, I think now we've been I think now
if I went to him tomorrow and said, hey, I
want to be monogamous, I think he would say yes. Absolutely.
He struggles with how public I am right?
Speaker 1 (30:03):
This was my next question, how open is he about
all of this? With with what you're sharing on social media?
Speaker 2 (30:09):
You know. The creating a TikTok was his idea originally
was because I was like, oh, I'm gonna write a
blog and share some of these stories. He's like, that's nice, honey,
Like here it is, no one's reading a blog and
make a TikTok. And so the first couple of videos
went quite viral, and for the first four months of
the TikTok, he was in a lot of my videos
and like sharing his perspective as well. And I think
(30:30):
the negativity and the criticism and just the hate comments
became really overwhelming, and he said to me, like, I
don't want this in my life, Like this is this
is taking up too much mental load. The comments I
get are awful and untrue, Like I'd like to not
be included anymore. I was like, great. So all of
his all of his videos that he was in are gone.
(30:51):
And I think that he is a much more private
person than I am, and that's even reflected in our
agreements and how we communicate with one another. He yeah,
So I think if I went to answer your question,
if I went to him and said, Hey, I want
to be monogamous, would you be okay with that? He'd
say yes. If he came to me and said, oh,
I want to be monogamous, I would probably really struggle.
(31:13):
I am getting a lot of experiences and fulfillment, you know,
being able to be open and being able to go
and have these experiences that he doesn't enjoy. And right
now I feel like I get to live all versions
of myself. I get to be a wife, I get
to be a wonderful mother, I get to this incredible partnership,
and I get to be you know, I'm forty. I'm
(31:33):
more confident in my looks and my body, and you
know how I want to experiment and the things that
I want to do and going after my own desires
than I ever was in my twenties and thirties, and
I would be I would really struggle to let go
of that there are plenty of ways that I could
express it with, just like friends and then non sexual
(31:56):
partners in my life. But it's I feel like I
don't have limits and I'm really enjoining that at the moment.
Speaker 1 (32:01):
What's better a man or a woman. I've never been
with a woman, so I don't know.
Speaker 2 (32:07):
I don't think this has to do with gender. I
think it's just the individuals. I mean, I know that
that's such like a cliche answer at this point in time,
but very different, very fun in different ways. I love
having both. I love that I get to experience both.
I don't want to compare. I don't want to have
to choose one or the other.
Speaker 1 (32:23):
Do you think if people were if more people followed
in the path of an open marriage, there would be
less divorce because of you know, the fact that the
it's open, open menu for people if they want no.
Speaker 2 (32:36):
I actually don't think so. I would usually recommend an
open relationship to most people, but I would recommend some
of the mentality. I would recommend them open mentality, and
I would probably recommend going through the process that most
people who are in an open relationship have to go to.
To just about any couple and Like I said at
the beginning, it's like, define cheating. I think one of
(32:58):
the number one recommendations I would give to any couple,
whether the monogamous or not, define cheating is your partner
texting someone else? Does that count as cheating? What about
watching porn? What about messaging with an ex girlfriend? What
about spending time with co workers late at night but
they don't tell you about it? You know, what about
sexy texting with a chat bot? Right? Oh my god,
the fact that that comes up into my DMS all
(33:19):
the time right now? Is wild people having open relationships
with chat bots? That is happening. It's beyond my imagination.
But like, those are all conversations really worth having, like
define cheating, And then I think, figure out how to
have difficult conversations because the number one thing that I
think you have to do an open relationship is like
what happens when you are attracted to someone else? What
(33:40):
happens when you're jealous? How do you have difficult conversations?
And usually there's like methods around it. Like my husband
and I will sit down on a couch across from
each other and say, like, okay, for the next hour,
we're gonna have tough conversations and then we're good, and
then we're gonna go and we're gonna snuggle and have
a wonderful rest of the night, you know. And so
I think that's an important thing for all couples to do.
(34:01):
And if you're non monogamost, you have to do it.
You have to figure out how to have those tough conversations.
Speaker 1 (34:05):
It's interesting you say, though, that you don't actually recommend it,
or that you like you wouldn't be like, yeah, you should,
you should try it, given you're so happy in it
and fulfilled.
Speaker 2 (34:15):
Yeah, I've seen the other side of it too often, I.
Speaker 1 (34:17):
Think, which is the people not following the boundaries or
it the people leaving other people? Like, what is the
part that is the biggest X for this?
Speaker 2 (34:30):
You know? It's interesting because you started this off with
like affairs and cheating.
Speaker 1 (34:35):
Sorry, just no's I think.
Speaker 2 (34:38):
That I've seen because if you would have talked to
me four years ago, long before I was on social media,
I would have said, I do recommend an open relationship
everyone because of how happy we are and how it's
how wonderful it's been for us. Since then, I've talked
to probably a thousand people about opening up their relationship,
and I've talked to so many people who were hurt
(34:59):
in the process us because they felt like they were
being cheated on even though they had agreed to it.
But again, it was would I recommend it. I would
recommend it to anyone who who feels like they can
figure out what it takes in their relationship to have
freedom and commitment at the same time, because I think
(35:21):
a lot of long term relationships. I don't know about you,
but like, the one of the things that I love
about my marriage is it's so stable, It's so structured,
like there's so much deep trust. Our foundation is rock solid.
And I think because we have that rock solid foundation,
it also means there's not that much mystery, there's not
that much sort of butterflies in your stomach. The romanticism
(35:44):
disappears and dissipates after a while. It takes a lot
of effort to have romance once you have a really
stable environment. I think one of the things in an
open relationship, kind of going back to the other question
of the benefits for me personally, is an open relationship
is how we have to say I did to have
a strong, stable, foundation of a committed, trusting relationship, but
(36:06):
then allow each other to have the mystery and excitement,
the butterflies, the unknowing and instability outside of our marriage,
so that we kind of get to have both in
our lives. Yeah, and I think that there are a
lot of ways that a couple can achieve that. Some
couples who are monogamous, it's role play. Other couples it's
like the one crazy vacation they do a year. There
(36:28):
are a lot of ways to have that balance of
kind of stability and structure and mystery and surprise in
a relationship, and an open relationship isn't the only way
to go about doing so, but it's I think the
way that has worked the best for us.
Speaker 1 (36:44):
Yeah, it's interesting too, d Yeah, that you say about
the you know people saying, well, I said, you know,
he could do it, and then he did it. Now
it feels like cheating because I think many women might
fall in line with being like, yeah, no, that sounds great,
but when it actually happens, it's it feels like a betrayal.
Speaker 2 (37:03):
Yeah. I wrote a little bit about this at one point,
but I when I was opening up a relationship, I
got to a point where I was said, Okay, I
think I'm ninety five percent certain I want to try
an open relationship, and at that point in time, you
just have to take the leap and find out. And
I think that leap can be really scary because you've
had all the conversations, you've figured out all the agreements,
(37:23):
you know how you're going to communicate, you've defined cheating,
and then you take the first step, and you never
know how that first step is going to go. It
might feel like cheating. You might have this thing happen
like and all of a sudden, your entire body is
telling you this isn't right. I can't do this, I
don't want to do this anymore. Yeah, it's okay, that's
absolutely okay, now you know. And I used to back
and you're like, okay, this is the really Now monogamy
(37:46):
is what works for me now I know.
Speaker 1 (37:48):
Right, And I think, like you said, it all comes
back to the honesty because I remember one time and
this might have classified me as an open relationship. I
don't know, but where my ex husband, I said, I
don't care, like I if you end up cheating on
me again, like I just need you to tell me.
I'm not going to divorce you, like, I just need
you to be honest because the main thing in the
(38:09):
end for me was all it was never about the act.
It was about the lie. Like and that was what
killed us in the end, was never the act, always
the lie. And so you know, I think you know
you're having tough conversations. I'm sorry people because they don't
agree with your way of living in your marriage. People
come on and be hateful. I hate that. Again. I
(38:30):
might not agree with your choices, but I love that
you that were able to have a conversation. I think
that's what's so great about it. And you know, you're
you're sharing your life and what works for you and
helping people online. So where can our listeners find you
and follow along in that journey? And kindness? People be
kind when you follow along because listen, it's like everyone's
(38:53):
putting our you know, ourselves out there and we don't
have to agree, but you can still be kind.
Speaker 2 (38:57):
Definitely you can find me it openly committed. So Nielle
openly committed.
Speaker 1 (39:01):
Perfect title, too perfect name on.
Speaker 2 (39:03):
There across all channels. Do you mind if I ask
if of all the things that I just talked about
and kind of like, what I think it takes to
make an open relationship work? And I have this like
open mentality. What one of the what's one of the
things from what I've discussed today that you feel like
would benefit either you or any monogamous couple kind of
(39:25):
based on what we've discussed.
Speaker 1 (39:26):
I think the having that again, that real deep transparency,
and I think being able to sit down and just
be like, what do you like? What do you and
having that conversation you know, because I don't. I mean,
I guess me and my husband have talked about that,
but it's it can be an intimate and uncomfortable conversation,
you know, and vulnerable. Yeah. So I think, you know,
(39:49):
just sitting down with the with your partner and just
having full transparency of what sexually you would like and
how that can open up your marriage how you both
want it to open up.
Speaker 2 (40:01):
Yeah, definitely.
Speaker 1 (40:02):
But I think you're beautiful and wonderful and thank you
for coming on.
Speaker 2 (40:07):
Thank you for having me. This is very fun.
Speaker 1 (40:09):
Thanks Danielle for your vulnerability and sharing what your unique
love story has looked like. This has been an eye
opening conversation. Are you contemplating a non traditional relationship in
your chapter two. Starting to date and need some advice,
call us or email us. All the info is in
the show notes. Follow us on socials. Make sure to
rate and review the podcast. I do part two at
(40:29):
iHeartRadio podcast, where falling in love is the main objective
It's I Do Part two and I'm one of your hosts,
Jane Kramer. And usually on this podcast we are talking
about people that are in their chapter two looking for
love again after divorce. But what if the key to
not getting divorced is ethical non monogamy. We're going to
dive into this today. My guest is documenting her experience
with an open marriage through her social media Openly Committed.
Please welcome Danielle to the podcast. Danielle, thank you so
(00:40):
much for coming on I Do Part two. We really
appreciate you coming on. And you know, I have to
say it's interesting because you know, we've got different hosts
for different guests. And when I got sent your rundown,
I was like, oh, this is funny. I know why
they picked me. I was like cuz I was like
this girl was like huge joke. iHeart I like it.
Speaker 2 (01:02):
Why did they pick you? Now? I need to know.
Speaker 1 (01:04):
Well, so I my last husband very happily married now,
but my ex husband was have multiple, multiple multiple affairs
in our marriage, and so I have quite an opinion
when it comes around when it comes to uh cheating.
(01:26):
And you know, I've I've spoken to people before that
have been in open relationships. And again, I just come
from a place of I don't know how that works
when I've been in something. But mine was so different, right,
because mine was a lot of lying and deceit, and
it seems like in an open marriage there is more
(01:51):
communication around it.
Speaker 2 (01:52):
So there's I have a lot of opinions about cheating too.
Speaker 1 (01:54):
So okay, great, well let's start there. So let me
let me let me hear your opinions on cheating.
Speaker 2 (02:00):
Yeah, I mean, I think the definition of cheating is
betrayal and is lying. And I think so often I've
ended up talking to hundreds of people exploring open relationships
for multiple reasons. And the thing that I've heard from
people who've been cheated on is they look back on
the periods of time where they were cheated on and
they don't know what part was real and what what
part to believe and what was true, And all of
(02:22):
a sudden they're in a situation where they can't they
doubt huge chunks of the relationship. And what a terrible, heartbreaking,
untrusting place to be in. And I'd be curious, you know,
how you how you felt after kind of going through
a betrayal, And so I think when when my husband
brought up the idea of an open relationship, and he
(02:43):
brought up the idea about two to three months into dating, very.
Speaker 1 (02:45):
Early on, oh before even being married.
Speaker 2 (02:48):
Oh yeah, yeah, we'd been dating for two months when
he brought up the idea of exploring an open relationship.
Neither of us had ever been in an open relationship before.
We had no idea what we were doing. This is
like twenty ten. You didn't have TikTok influencers and blogs
about the topic back then, and so it was something
that we were going to explore. But his reasoning for
(03:09):
exploring an open relationship is that he had seen affairs
destroy families, destroy people's confidence, and he wanted to affair
proof our relationship. That was his initial reasoning for bringing
up an open relationship in the first place. And so
I think it can be a wonderful way to have
transparency and truth in a relationship, but it does not
(03:31):
work for everyone, and there are there are cheaters and
open relationships too. Like being an open relationship is not
carte blanche to cheat, We just define cheating differently, and
we establish rules and boundaries that have to be equally
respected the same way they wouldn't a monogamous relationship.
Speaker 1 (03:47):
For those that haven't followed along with your journey on
social media, do you discuss the boundaries around an open
relationship in your marriage?
Speaker 2 (03:58):
I do, yes. So we've had rules that have evolved
over the years, and I don't think that there's a
common rule set or agreement subset set that you know,
every open relationship, every couple follows. They're always different. And
so I think one of the things that we did,
what we spent the first two years of our open
(04:19):
relationship doing, is figuring out like, Okay, what are our rules,
you know, are how are we going to define our rules?
How do we define safe sex, how do we for
each other and eventually with other people? How do we
have really difficult conversations, you know, how do we define cheating?
I think that that one's really important. And then also
setting the goals of like what do we eventually want
this relationship to be? And I think that happens no
(04:41):
matter what relationship you're in, but you're if you're in
an open relationship, you really have to have those conversations
because you're essentially deciding to not follow the set standard
monogamous guidebook that society and culture and religion have kind
of set for us.
Speaker 1 (04:58):
Have you seen the movie Splitsville? I haven't got to Johnson.
Speaker 2 (05:01):
Oh, okay, I really really want to. I definitely need.
Speaker 1 (05:04):
To, Okay, because it is, you know, about having an
open marriage. So Dakota Johnson's marriage, her husband wanted, you know,
to have this open marriage. But it's interesting because they
don't They don't tell the other person that they're having sex.
They just kind of assume, like when he goes away
for his work trip in New York, that he's most
(05:26):
likely with someone. But it created this no I wouldn't
want to say, well, I guess jealousy, but also this
insecurity that he's choosing to leave our home to go
be with someone else. So do those feelings come up
when your husband wants to go be with somebody else?
Speaker 2 (05:44):
So you're talking to me after I've been doing this
for fifteen years, So I think that's a pretty big
difference between you know, our agreements and the way that
I felt early on in our relationship when we were
new not only to being open, but also like new
to our relationship. Sure, and you know, we had a
lot more of those those insecurities and jealousies. I experienced
(06:05):
a ton of jealousy the first couple of years of
opening up. And now, you know, we've been together for
fifteen years. We've been open that entire time. I talk
abouts now as we've had phases. We've had phases of polyamory,
phases being open, we've had phases of monogamy. You know,
but we've been together for fifteen years and so we
you know, are the types of jealousy that I experience
(06:26):
are very different. I wish I'd seen the movie so
that I could right.
Speaker 1 (06:30):
But for you, like in the beginning, did it make
you well? First of all? Like in the very beginning
when he brought it up, did that make you sad?
Or was it something where you thought, Okay, I like
this guy. I'm going to fall in line with what
he wants to do, because it was or is that
something that you wanted to do?
Speaker 2 (06:44):
No? I was, I was like, what the fuck? Oh wait,
I thought I'd met my guy. I thought I'd met
the one, my prince in shining armor, except you know
modern times. So we were on a ski slope, right
and I, you know, I met this guy. We had
instant chemistry. We had this sort of whirlwind, wonderful, you know,
(07:04):
like rom come worthy first couple of months of dating,
and then I feel like he you know, I feel
like this idea exploring an open relationship came out of nowhere.
And what's so funny is like the words he used
were probably were probably along the lines of like, Hey,
I have this idea. It's something I want to explore.
Would you be open to considering an open relationship. It
(07:27):
wasn't an ultimatum. It wasn't even a like I want
to do this. It was let's explore this. And even
that made me feel angry, pissed off, embarrassed, Like, all
of a sudden, I tell my friends that this guy
that I thought was the one now I want to
explore an open relationship.
Speaker 1 (07:43):
Get to me, that'd be a huge red flag. I'd
be like, oh, so you just want to cheat on me,
So then why have you in a relationship?
Speaker 2 (07:49):
Yeah, But that's where I started to like, that's absolutely
where I started to I think where I started to
come around to the idea is that it was something
that we were just exploring. We spent a year, You're
just doing research and talking about it, and you know, like,
what could this look like. And I understood his why,
which was, like, you know, he wanted to affair proof
the relationship. That's where it started for him. And at
(08:10):
that time, I didn't have a why, Like I didn't
have a very clear why I want to be in
an open relationship. I do now. I'm bisexual. I enjoy
dating both men and women. I find this incredible level
of freedom. I feel like my partner enables me to
have a bigger life than I would if it was,
you know, just just the two of us. I feel
like we've created a relationship that's really tailored to us
(08:33):
and nobody else. And I see, you know this, I
see this open relationship of ours is now kind of
more of a mindset than anything else. You know, we're
we're going to figure things out. We're going to change
as our desires do, as our libidos do, as our
interest and other people do. Is the things that we
want to explore do, and our relationship has enough flexibility
to kind of evolve as we do. I couldn't have
(08:54):
told you that fifteen years ago. I was like, what right?
Speaker 1 (08:59):
Who was he? The first person to step out though?
And I guess it's not stepping out when you're technically
signing up for it, but.
Speaker 2 (09:06):
We took baby steps. It's interesting I think seeing open
relationships portrayed in films and movies and so film and
TV nowadays, and even on social media, and also so
many people I've talked to in this process because I
think people are like, Okay, great, let's explore an open relationship.
And then it's like they go and have a threesome
or like they go and like have a relationship with
someone else for a weekend. I was like, wow, it
(09:27):
feels like you're jumping into a deep end with sharks.
In our case, we talked about it. I kissed someone,
We talked about it. He kissed someone, We talked about it.
I went on a date and didn't do anything, and
we talked about it, and then he did, and then
we talked about it. And we went to a swingers
club but didn't do anything, and we talked about Then
we went to swingers club and did a few things,
then talked about it. You know, there was for us,
it was definitely a progression and of baby steps where
(09:49):
we were constantly checking in, Okay, how do you feel
how even little things like he kissed someone? It was like,
how do I feel about the fact that he kissed someone?
And I had to actually go through that entire process.
I was like, Okay, him kissing someone else doesn't take
away from him kissing me. He had an experience that
kind of brought him joy, and how do I feel
(10:09):
about that? You know? And so I think that with
taking those baby step per aggressions, we were able to
kind of tiptoe into is does this make you uncomfortable? Okay?
Do we want to stop or do we want to
figure something out? Yeah? I don't recommend for anyone opening
up a relationship. I don't recommend, you know, immediately going
(10:31):
off and having another relationship with another person. I feel
like that's too much, too soon, But it definitely happens,
plenty of people do it.
Speaker 1 (10:37):
How much of your fifteen years has it been monogamous?
Speaker 2 (10:40):
Would you think, Oh, that's a good question, about two
years in total, maybe two and a half out of
the fifteen.
Speaker 1 (10:47):
Were those happy years or were those more volatile years?
Or I'm curious, like what the difference between when you
were monogamous and when you guys were with other partners?
Speaker 2 (10:58):
Yeah, I think that so, as I said, fifteen years
of our relationship there have been. So we had a
phase of monogamy when my son was born, because I
don't know if you're a parent or your parent.
Speaker 1 (11:10):
Yes, I've got three kids. We've got three kids and
a step son.
Speaker 2 (11:14):
So you probably know that when your kids are young,
you don't have enough time to like sleep or date
each other.
Speaker 1 (11:20):
I'm exhausted exactly.
Speaker 2 (11:23):
Yeah, you're like, I I'm if I can get dinner
on a table like half the nights of the week.
So that phase of monogamy I think was just kind
of natural. You know. There was all We're so excited
to be parents. We wanted to spend so much time together,
so much time with our son, and I think we
kind of woke up one day and we're like, oh,
(11:44):
we've been monogamous for a year. Cool, that was it.
It was not a big deal.
Speaker 1 (11:50):
I'm sorry, I'm astericking real fast, so I don't forget.
How do you what do you tell how old your kid?
Speaker 2 (11:56):
Our son is eleven, my daughter elevens sweet?
Speaker 1 (12:00):
Sweet? So when they're older, is this something that you
guys are going to tell them? Because obviously your stuff
is on social media, so they're going to be watching
social media. So is it something that I mean, have
you talked to them about it? Or are you going
to or what are you going to say? And then
what are you I guess modeling then for what a
marriage looks like and for their values and opinions around
(12:23):
it all.
Speaker 2 (12:24):
Yeah, so my son already knows. We told him about
a year and a bit ago. It was. I mean,
it was a pretty easy casual conversation at that time.
And I think I think there's a couple of things. So,
first of all, my children know better than anyone else
how much my husband and I love each other. They
see it every day and they're raised in the household
with it every day, and they do not see us
(12:47):
dating other people. And it sounds like you're divorced.
Speaker 1 (12:50):
I'm married now. Oh, you're married now, but you asked
to a lovely man, Yes, the man that cheated. I
do have two kids with and then one with the new.
Speaker 2 (13:00):
How long did it take you to introduce your new
partner to your existing kids?
Speaker 1 (13:04):
Oh? Man, let's see oct I met in October, November, December, January.
But three and a half months.
Speaker 2 (13:10):
Oh, interesting, we actually waited. We wait longer than that. Yeah,
So if we're in serious relationships with someone else, which
has only happened twice in our fifteen years.
Speaker 1 (13:18):
Oh, so you introduce them to people that you're with.
Speaker 2 (13:21):
We've introduced them as friends of friends.
Speaker 1 (13:23):
We got it, got it in using But.
Speaker 2 (13:25):
I mean, it takes a long time to introduce someone
that's an important part of your life to your children.
And it took us, you know, we waited I think
five and then six months to introduce anyone to our kids.
But when we told our son, and we told him like,
Mom and we love each other very much, we're in
an open relationship. What we have other people we really
care about. We have other people that we have feelings for,
(13:48):
and one of them you've met. And so then we
were able to say, like this person who you've met
in the past, who was introduced as a friend of
the family, you know you had a great experience with
that person, Like that's someone that mom and didn't care
about as well. So I think it's we're pretty Oh
it's funny. These feel like such hard conversations to have
(14:10):
without a lot of content, without the entire context. But
I think that when we tell our son what we're
modeling to answer your question, like what do we model
for our kids. We're very careful with what we tell
them and when. What we're telling our son when he's ten,
when he was ten, which is when we told him,
will be a little bit different than the conversations we
(14:31):
have with him when he's eighteen. Right when we introduce
our children to people that we were dating, which again
has only happened twice as a friend of a family member,
because honestly, it's kind of true. It's true. It's someone
like we care about, it's someone we would love to
introduce to our children. But we're careful how we do that.
The way that we talk to our children is about
(14:51):
love and about relationships and about caring for people. We're
not talking to our children about sex. We don't talk
to about our children about our sex lives. It's not
like we're going to talk to them about like sex
lives with other people. Well, it's crazy, and I think
that long term, the thing that I hope to model
for my kids is that you know, we're in a
relationship that works for us that took us a long
time to figure out, that we constantly support each other
(15:13):
through all these huge changes, and we're also kind of
living pretty authentically and we figured out a relationship that
allows us to do so. And I'm hoping that by
living this authentically and like, by by creating the relationship
that works for me, my kids will not only feel
like they have permission to do so themselves, but they'll
(15:34):
see it. They'll see that, oh, mom and dad did it.
I can definitely do this too, no matter what that
looks like for my kids.
Speaker 1 (15:50):
Okay, So what happens if you so these people that
you have introduced your kids to obviously were someone that
was they you said you were dating. What happens if
you really catch feelings and you want to be with
just them?
Speaker 2 (16:05):
I guess we'll figure it out.
Speaker 1 (16:06):
Is that something you guys have talked about or we.
Speaker 2 (16:09):
Have definitely talked about. It's only once where my husband
was dating someone and we had the conversations like what
if she lived with us? Like, okay, how would that
look like? But it wasn't something she was interested in
and could it happen? Yeah? But I guess there's also
this thing, is like, if either of us fell in
love with someone else and loved that person more than
(16:31):
each other, would we go and be monogamous with that person?
Probably not? I mean, we're in an open relationship. We've been.
I know that people use the terms open relationship and polyamory.
I tend to use them interchangeably. But if I was
feeling if I was polyamorous, So if I was in
a romantic, committed relationship with someone else as well as
(16:52):
a romantic committed relationship with my husband, we would figure
out how that works. It's hard for me to imagine
leaving this incredible life that I've built with my husband
and our kids and our family for someone else, given
the fact that, for lack of a better word, I
get to have both.
Speaker 1 (17:09):
Right. But here's my question, though, I guess, and I'm
sure you hear this all the time too, is why
be married at all? Then?
Speaker 2 (17:16):
I want it to be, But.
Speaker 1 (17:17):
You're not with that just that person marriage is if
you I mean, I guess, let's I don't know the
actual definition is, but to me, it's the married to
one person, and you're I don't know, I mean, maybe
that's the old school mentality with it, where it's like,
I guess you're changing with the typical old school version
(17:39):
of what a marriage is.
Speaker 2 (17:41):
Yeah, I think that is what we're doing, and I
think you're seeing it. I think you're seeing it more
and more nowadays. You're seeing a lot of people who,
you know, feel like their gender is very fluid, their
sexuality is very fluid. And so for someone who is
expressing you know, bisexuality, pan sexuality and feels like they're
you know, their generous fluid or they then also expected
(18:02):
to only be in a monogamous married relationship as their goal.
You know, I think that the constructs and the goals
of relationships are going to look very different ten years
from now for this upcoming generation. I think that I
don't know about you, but I'm forty one, so I
feel like I'm sort of in that in between phase
between you know, my parents' generation and their definition of
(18:25):
what a really great marriage looks like and what the
next generation is going to look like. And I guess
I guess an to flip it on, to turn this
on its head. Do you think that a marriage is
more than sexual exclusivity?
Speaker 1 (18:40):
Do I think a marriage is more than sexual exclusivity?
Speaker 2 (18:44):
Do you think that sexual exclusivity is the most important
thing to marry.
Speaker 1 (18:48):
In a marriage? Yeah? Interesting, Okay, I do, But again
that's my how I was. I guess brought up thinking that,
I mean, my parents, it's got divorced because my dad cheated.
You know, So what is marriage a man and a
woman staying faithfully together. I guess that's my yeah, and
(19:09):
then just to get the old school values around it all.
But again, I've messed up many times where I'm not
messed up, but I've I've had had multiple marriages because
you know, I've been trying to find that marriage that
I ideal, that I dreamt of as a as a
gal girl. Right, So I've married the wrong people in
(19:32):
that quest, but I do I personally could never open
up a marriage, and I love having conversations with people,
you know that have different differing views and opinions, and
I see how it can work for other people. I personally,
going through what I've been through with my ex, I
don't see a world where, you know, Even Alan and
(19:55):
I joked when we were in the car after watching
splits Pille and I'm like, I don't mean to be
closed off around it. I was like, but if you
ever came to me with that, there's just no way
in hell I would be okay with it, like ever.
And he's like, He's like, same, you know, but you know,
I do think there were some people that can work.
And what are you know, for you guys, how has
(20:17):
it made you guys stronger in your marriage having this
open relationship?
Speaker 2 (20:22):
So I would say that right now you're seeing in
the US, I think it's four to five percent of
the US population rec is consensually non monogamous, So it
means that like ninety five percent of the population is monogamous. Like,
monogamy is what works for most people, and I think
so to your question was like, kind of what makes
(20:44):
it work for us?
Speaker 1 (20:46):
Yeah, well, how how has it strengthened your marriage? You know,
like what is what is the positive you know in it?
Speaker 2 (20:52):
I think the positive for us is I mean, I
will say the level of transparency, you know, And I
think that the kind of going back to the betrayal,
right when I when my husband brought the idea and said,
let's a fair proof the relationship, one of the biggest
conversations that we had was like complete transparency and how
important that was to us. And I think even if
(21:14):
we decided to be monogamous, like even if we'd gone
through this whole process of exploring an open relationship and
then a couple of years in decide, you know what
we want to be in monigamous, which is absolutely an
option on the table. I think that we would have
really learned a couple of things about our relationship anyway,
which is how important transparency is. It's like, I do
I want to know if you're attracted to someone, if
you're hanging out with friends, Like I want to like
(21:38):
have that level of detail because I care about you.
Speaker 1 (21:42):
Well, it's a level of deep honesty too, and like
really knowing your partner because there's so many closeted people.
I'm not just talking about their preferences, but when it
comes to them not knowing what their fetishes are or
they're you know what I mean, because they're too afraid
to say anything exactly or be judged or yeah.
Speaker 2 (22:01):
I mean this is that again. Kind of going on
that note, you know, I think in my mid thirties
there were things that I wanted to try sexually, and
because we have this level of transparency, it was really
easy for me to go to my partner be like,
so I have an idea.
Speaker 1 (22:17):
Yeah, totally, I could say how that'd be so liberating
and open and free and then being so connected because deep,
true transparency and honesty is the most connective thing for couples.
Speaker 2 (22:30):
Absolutely, and I feel like that at its foundation has
nothing to do with the relationship style. Monogamous not monagamous,
doesn't matter. I feel like I get to go to
my partner and say there's something I want to try.
I'm feeling this, I feel you know, I desire this.
I'm not feeling desirable. I want to try this thing
that's new. I want to be pushed outside of my
comfort zone. And I think the difference with my partner
(22:51):
and I is most of those things, like we will
kind of figure out together, but there is this element
which is like, okay, Danielle, Like, if I wanted to
try something that my husband doesn't necessarily want to or
doesn't enjoy, then I have an opportunity to go and
explore that and experience that with someone else, and it
(23:11):
could be a friend. Right. I'm a big outdoor enthusiast,
a ski I love hiking. My husband does not. My
husband needs a goal. He's like, oh, we're hiking. We're
hiking from point A to point B. And I'm like, no,
it's about flowers and the views and like experience. He's like, no,
it'd be and so I get to have those experiences, yes,
with my friends who will do all these things with me,
(23:33):
but also I think some other in some other ways,
you know, especially from you'd mentioned kind of like kinks
and getting to explore things outside of your comfort zone.
I get to do that. I get to I kind
of have all of the options available to me, including
the options that my husband might necessarily not be interested in.
Speaker 1 (23:51):
For sure. I have a question when you are exploring
or want to explore something, do you I don't know,
is there apps for this or do you? And then
when when you do meet someone, do you say I
am married? Like you have to go through all that
right obviously that's probably a boundary for your husband.
Speaker 2 (24:10):
Oh yes, So total transparency on my dating profiles, I
say I'm married, I'm not monogamous with two kids. And interestingly,
I think because dating apps have changed so much that
you do have dating apps that are dedicated to the
non monogamous, polyamorous spaces now feel hashtag open. I believe
even some of the other more standard ones have you know,
(24:31):
have drop downs now where you can select interested in
being open, nominogamous, et cetera. So I think that that's
probably right now, the easiest way to kind of to
find people that you're interested in dating. I also kind
of meet a lot of people in real life. I
think one of the things that the thing about being
in an open relationship, I am not always dating. I
(24:52):
think that there's this perception because I'm an oship, Oh
my god, I must be having sex with everybody.
Speaker 1 (24:57):
I was like, No, such a good point.
Speaker 2 (24:59):
I still have enough like years and toast account everybody, Like, seriously, guys,
it's not that crazy and so and I think, what's
but I think what's interesting is that if I do
meet someone, I have a connection, there's no limit to
what that connection could be. You know. It could be
it could be a just really intimate friendship. It could
(25:22):
be a friend with benefits. It could be a comment,
it could be a one night stand, it could be
something that evolves into a deeper relationship. It's like, I'm
very rarely just like on a mission to date and
find someone. That's almost never happened. It's much more that
I get to live life, and then the people that
kind of come into my life, I get to say, like, oh,
(25:44):
is this friends or is this you know, the entire
rainbow of other options that are actually available bull to
me because of my open relationship style.
Speaker 1 (25:54):
Got it? Okay, you have a okay question? Because this
has happened. I know how this has happened to someone before.
But someone had told a girlfriend of mine that they
were in an open marriage, but come to find out
they were not an open marriage, and that was just
what he was saying. So and that's called cheating. Yeah.
Have you run into that where people are on these
(26:15):
sites and they're saying they're in the open marriage, but really,
like you come to find out that this like the
wife or the husband is actually not okay with it.
Speaker 2 (26:23):
I hate that this happens, and it happens so for
anyone listening. So I'm openly committed. Up on social channels,
I talk about my experiences, stories, recommendations for anyone exploring
non monogamy. And I think that this one is a
huge pet peeve of mine because I think that it
really it doesn't endjusice to most people who are in
(26:46):
an open relationship. It's I think it's one of the
things because in open relationships and polyamory are trending. It's
become something that people can say more easily when they're
just cheating, and I hate that that's the case. It
has happened to me twice where you know, would be like, oh,
this is really really interesting. But I think when you've
been in an open relationship for a long time, you
can start to ask questions and then the red flags
(27:08):
go up. So I will always ask someone like, hey, like,
what are your boundaries? You know, what are the things
that are discussed in your existing relationship? What are the
agreements that you have with your partner? And the simple
question is like, does your partner or you're on a
date with me right now. I have dated people who
have what's called a don't ask, don't tell policy in
their relationship, and you just you just ask a couple
(27:28):
more questions. And I have requested to like FaceTime or
text message a partner before. But honestly, if I'm getting
a spider sense that this person's not really open, I'm
not going there. I'm not interested. And I think on
the flip side of it, my husband has been on
dates with women before and they ask to FaceTime me.
Speaker 1 (27:46):
And what is that like? Like? Truthfully, like you're like, hey, Carl,
like what We're like, Yeah, like what there isn't like
a percentage I know, the fifteen year. But okay, so
now let's say at the fifteen year, there isn't like
a little piece that's one percent little jealous.
Speaker 2 (28:04):
Oh oh, of course there is. No. Here's the You
want to know what the arc is?
Speaker 1 (28:08):
Yeah, because I'm like, I know, it's like all fun
and dandy and like you guys are like at this
fifteen like happy and like.
Speaker 2 (28:13):
Fun and we're learning all kinds of new things, especially
like and now I'm public on social media, like that's
feeling jealousy in a whole different way, and all kinds
of new issues and communication tactics. Okay, here's the arc.
If my part, if my husband's going on a date.
At first, like I'll help him get ready and I'll
be like, oh, wear the blue shirt. You look really
good in that one. Like okay, no, no, it's like
you're like you help him get ready for the date.
(28:33):
And then let's say this is all hypothetical, but all
of these things have happened in different different situations. And
then let's say he like he texts me like, oh
the date's going really well. I'm excited. I'm be like yay.
But then I'll be like, wait, hold on a second.
If you're on a date, that means like I'm here
with the kids and they're freaking out and I am
seriously negotiating vegetables while you are on to have a
nice date on a nice date, what the fuck? And
(28:55):
then he'll message me like, hey, can you FaceTime her
really quick? And I'll be like, Okay, no questions, ask
no matter what I'm going through, of course I'm going
to say yes to like a quick FaceTime. You'll do
the face time, and then in my head I'm like, oh,
is she cuter? Is she prettier? Like it's like, what's happening?
And then there'll be this thing is like, oh, my
husband's on a date with a really attractive husband, Like woman,
go him. And then I'll be like wait a minute.
(29:16):
And then, for whatever reason the date doesn't work out.
I'll have this moment of relief, and then I'll be
a little bit annoyed, like I'm sorry, he's amazing. What
the heck were you thinking? Not like continuing a date
with him? So it's like every emotion you can imagine
will prop.
Speaker 1 (29:30):
Child If you went to your husband and said I
don't want to do this anymore. Do you think he
would stay and not do it?
Speaker 2 (29:49):
Absolutely? Yeah, I think now we've been I think now
if I went to him tomorrow and said, hey, I
want to be monogamous, I think he would say yes. Absolutely.
He struggles with how public I am right?
Speaker 1 (30:03):
This was my next question, how open is he about
all of this? With with what you're sharing on social media?
Speaker 2 (30:09):
You know. The creating a TikTok was his idea originally
was because I was like, oh, I'm gonna write a
blog and share some of these stories. He's like, that's nice, honey,
Like here it is, no one's reading a blog and
make a TikTok. And so the first couple of videos
went quite viral, and for the first four months of
the TikTok, he was in a lot of my videos
and like sharing his perspective as well. And I think
(30:30):
the negativity and the criticism and just the hate comments
became really overwhelming, and he said to me, like, I
don't want this in my life, Like this is this
is taking up too much mental load. The comments I
get are awful and untrue, Like I'd like to not
be included anymore. I was like, great. So all of
his all of his videos that he was in are gone.
(30:51):
And I think that he is a much more private
person than I am, and that's even reflected in our
agreements and how we communicate with one another. He yeah,
So I think if I went to answer your question,
if I went to him and said, Hey, I want
to be monogamous, would you be okay with that? He'd
say yes. If he came to me and said, oh,
I want to be monogamous, I would probably really struggle.
(31:13):
I am getting a lot of experiences and fulfillment, you know,
being able to be open and being able to go
and have these experiences that he doesn't enjoy. And right
now I feel like I get to live all versions
of myself. I get to be a wife, I get
to be a wonderful mother, I get to this incredible partnership,
and I get to be you know, I'm forty. I'm
(31:33):
more confident in my looks and my body, and you
know how I want to experiment and the things that
I want to do and going after my own desires
than I ever was in my twenties and thirties, and
I would be I would really struggle to let go
of that there are plenty of ways that I could
express it with, just like friends and then non sexual
(31:56):
partners in my life. But it's I feel like I
don't have limits and I'm really enjoining that at the moment.
Speaker 1 (32:01):
What's better a man or a woman. I've never been
with a woman, so I don't know.
Speaker 2 (32:07):
I don't think this has to do with gender. I
think it's just the individuals. I mean, I know that
that's such like a cliche answer at this point in time,
but very different, very fun in different ways. I love
having both. I love that I get to experience both.
I don't want to compare. I don't want to have
to choose one or the other.
Speaker 1 (32:23):
Do you think if people were if more people followed
in the path of an open marriage, there would be
less divorce because of you know, the fact that the
it's open, open menu for people if they want no.
Speaker 2 (32:36):
I actually don't think so. I would usually recommend an
open relationship to most people, but I would recommend some
of the mentality. I would recommend them open mentality, and
I would probably recommend going through the process that most
people who are in an open relationship have to go to.
To just about any couple and Like I said at
the beginning, it's like, define cheating. I think one of
(32:58):
the number one recommendations I would give to any couple,
whether the monogamous or not, define cheating is your partner
texting someone else? Does that count as cheating? What about
watching porn? What about messaging with an ex girlfriend? What
about spending time with co workers late at night but
they don't tell you about it? You know, what about
sexy texting with a chat bot? Right? Oh my god,
the fact that that comes up into my DMS all
(33:19):
the time right now? Is wild people having open relationships
with chat bots? That is happening. It's beyond my imagination.
But like, those are all conversations really worth having, like
define cheating, And then I think, figure out how to
have difficult conversations because the number one thing that I
think you have to do an open relationship is like
what happens when you are attracted to someone else? What
(33:40):
happens when you're jealous? How do you have difficult conversations?
And usually there's like methods around it. Like my husband
and I will sit down on a couch across from
each other and say, like, okay, for the next hour,
we're gonna have tough conversations and then we're good, and
then we're gonna go and we're gonna snuggle and have
a wonderful rest of the night, you know. And so
I think that's an important thing for all couples to do.
(34:01):
And if you're non monogamost, you have to do it.
You have to figure out how to have those tough conversations.
Speaker 1 (34:05):
It's interesting you say, though, that you don't actually recommend it,
or that you like you wouldn't be like, yeah, you should,
you should try it, given you're so happy in it
and fulfilled.
Speaker 2 (34:15):
Yeah, I've seen the other side of it too often, I.
Speaker 1 (34:17):
Think, which is the people not following the boundaries or
it the people leaving other people? Like, what is the
part that is the biggest X for this?
Speaker 2 (34:30):
You know? It's interesting because you started this off with
like affairs and cheating.
Speaker 1 (34:35):
Sorry, just no's I think.
Speaker 2 (34:38):
That I've seen because if you would have talked to
me four years ago, long before I was on social media,
I would have said, I do recommend an open relationship
everyone because of how happy we are and how it's
how wonderful it's been for us. Since then, I've talked
to probably a thousand people about opening up their relationship,
and I've talked to so many people who were hurt
(34:59):
in the process us because they felt like they were
being cheated on even though they had agreed to it.
But again, it was would I recommend it. I would
recommend it to anyone who who feels like they can
figure out what it takes in their relationship to have
freedom and commitment at the same time, because I think
(35:21):
a lot of long term relationships. I don't know about you,
but like, the one of the things that I love
about my marriage is it's so stable, It's so structured,
like there's so much deep trust. Our foundation is rock solid.
And I think because we have that rock solid foundation,
it also means there's not that much mystery, there's not
that much sort of butterflies in your stomach. The romanticism
(35:44):
disappears and dissipates after a while. It takes a lot
of effort to have romance once you have a really
stable environment. I think one of the things in an
open relationship, kind of going back to the other question
of the benefits for me personally, is an open relationship
is how we have to say I did to have
a strong, stable, foundation of a committed, trusting relationship, but
(36:06):
then allow each other to have the mystery and excitement,
the butterflies, the unknowing and instability outside of our marriage,
so that we kind of get to have both in
our lives. Yeah, and I think that there are a
lot of ways that a couple can achieve that. Some
couples who are monogamous, it's role play. Other couples it's
like the one crazy vacation they do a year. There
(36:28):
are a lot of ways to have that balance of
kind of stability and structure and mystery and surprise in
a relationship, and an open relationship isn't the only way
to go about doing so, but it's I think the
way that has worked the best for us.
Speaker 1 (36:44):
Yeah, it's interesting too, d Yeah, that you say about
the you know people saying, well, I said, you know,
he could do it, and then he did it. Now
it feels like cheating because I think many women might
fall in line with being like, yeah, no, that sounds great,
but when it actually happens, it's it feels like a betrayal.
Speaker 2 (37:03):
Yeah. I wrote a little bit about this at one point,
but I when I was opening up a relationship, I
got to a point where I was said, Okay, I
think I'm ninety five percent certain I want to try
an open relationship, and at that point in time, you
just have to take the leap and find out. And
I think that leap can be really scary because you've
had all the conversations, you've figured out all the agreements,
(37:23):
you know how you're going to communicate, you've defined cheating,
and then you take the first step, and you never
know how that first step is going to go. It
might feel like cheating. You might have this thing happen
like and all of a sudden, your entire body is
telling you this isn't right. I can't do this, I
don't want to do this anymore. Yeah, it's okay, that's
absolutely okay, now you know. And I used to back
and you're like, okay, this is the really Now monogamy
(37:46):
is what works for me now I know.
Speaker 1 (37:48):
Right, And I think, like you said, it all comes
back to the honesty because I remember one time and
this might have classified me as an open relationship. I
don't know, but where my ex husband, I said, I
don't care, like I if you end up cheating on
me again, like I just need you to tell me.
I'm not going to divorce you, like, I just need
you to be honest because the main thing in the
(38:09):
end for me was all it was never about the act.
It was about the lie. Like and that was what
killed us in the end, was never the act, always
the lie. And so you know, I think you know
you're having tough conversations. I'm sorry people because they don't
agree with your way of living in your marriage. People
come on and be hateful. I hate that. Again. I
(38:30):
might not agree with your choices, but I love that
you that were able to have a conversation. I think
that's what's so great about it. And you know, you're
you're sharing your life and what works for you and
helping people online. So where can our listeners find you
and follow along in that journey? And kindness? People be
kind when you follow along because listen, it's like everyone's
(38:53):
putting our you know, ourselves out there and we don't
have to agree, but you can still be kind.
Speaker 2 (38:57):
Definitely you can find me it openly committed. So Nielle
openly committed.
Speaker 1 (39:01):
Perfect title, too perfect name on.
Speaker 2 (39:03):
There across all channels. Do you mind if I ask
if of all the things that I just talked about
and kind of like, what I think it takes to
make an open relationship work? And I have this like
open mentality. What one of the what's one of the
things from what I've discussed today that you feel like
would benefit either you or any monogamous couple kind of
(39:25):
based on what we've discussed.
Speaker 1 (39:26):
I think the having that again, that real deep transparency,
and I think being able to sit down and just
be like, what do you like? What do you and
having that conversation you know, because I don't. I mean,
I guess me and my husband have talked about that,
but it's it can be an intimate and uncomfortable conversation,
you know, and vulnerable. Yeah. So I think, you know,
(39:49):
just sitting down with the with your partner and just
having full transparency of what sexually you would like and
how that can open up your marriage how you both
want it to open up.
Speaker 2 (40:01):
Yeah, definitely.
Speaker 1 (40:02):
But I think you're beautiful and wonderful and thank you
for coming on.
Speaker 2 (40:07):
Thank you for having me. This is very fun.
Speaker 1 (40:09):
Thanks Danielle for your vulnerability and sharing what your unique
love story has looked like. This has been an eye
opening conversation. Are you contemplating a non traditional relationship in
your chapter two. Starting to date and need some advice,
call us or email us. All the info is in
the show notes. Follow us on socials. Make sure to
rate and review the podcast. I do part two at
(40:29):
iHeartRadio podcast, where falling in love is the main objective
Hosts And Creators
Amy Robach
T.J. Holmes
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