Black and Tech Episode

Kicking off the four-part series, iHeartRadio’s Black and Inspired HBCU Celebration present to you the Black and Tech Episode. Media personality Jasmine Sweet sits down with Blavity CEO and Founder of Afro Tech Morgan Debaun, and Brand Manager at AfroTech and host of Black Tech Green Money Podcast, Will Lucas. The two share strategies about intersecting tech and black culture.

Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.com

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
Thank you to Honday, a proud partner of I Heart
Radio's Black and Inspired HBCU Celebrations as CLI as part.
Welcome to this episode of Black and Tech where we're
going to be celebrating our culture and also talking about
what it looks like for us to break into the
tech industry. And I'm sitting here today with Will Lucas

(00:23):
and Morgan Duvon, the experts on all things being black
in tech, and I am your host, Jasmine Sweet, and
I am gonna be asking all the questions to break
it down and invite more people into this space that
we have seen is inclusive only if we make sure
we're showing up and providing what it actually looks like

(00:43):
to join this space. So I'm gonna start with Will, Will,
how about you introduced yourself and tell us a little
bit more about you? And that's I'm Will Lucas, brand
manager for appro Tech and the host of producer of
Black Tech, Green Money, the official appro Tech podcast. UM
serial entrepreneur. I hate that word, but just the best
way to summarize what I do. So UM, yes, that's

(01:04):
what that's why I am. All right, let's take it
over to Morrigan, the CEO and the boss lady herself.
I just saw her like a month ago, Morgan, tell
us a little bit more that we don't already know
about you everybody. Um, I am Will's partner in crime
for all things affro Tech, founder and creative Affro Tech
with my my business partners, and also CEO and founder

(01:25):
of Black pty E, so you know, behind the scenes
working on all of our brands. You know, we're five brands,
and our portfolio, and then also our ad network, Blabby
Culture Network, and of course all things Afro Tech. So
I want to just jump right in and break the
ice because I think a lot of people are actually
confused on what tech is. Um. For most people, they think, well,

(01:49):
I have an iPhone, I gotta Mac THEO. That's tech
for me. And everyone's still trying to figure out generationally
what this looks like, how you comply, how you jump
into it, what it looks like as a user, what
it looks like as someone who's actually a creator in
this space. So let's just give a layman terms definition
of what tech looks like. And I'm gonna start with

(02:11):
you more again. You know, tech is anything that is
powered by not a human you know, I really just
view it as that. Right. So you know, you walk
in your your door and your sound system, your alarm
system goes off. Okay, there's some sort of technology powering that,
there's some way that they know you open the door. Um.

(02:31):
And typically, I think in the black community, you know,
we're super duper users of technology. We're on our phones,
we're on our tablets, we're using tablets as computers. We
are doing um incredible things in music and social media
and TikTok and everything and so um. You know, technology
is all around us, and it's completely integrated into our lives.

(02:53):
I think he makes them awesome points. The fact that
tech is so at at your fingertips. You can build
a studio in your home, man record podcast now, or
you can create your own TikTok videos. Now. Tech is
is literally at the cust of our creatorship. And so
I think that that's gonna be the one of the
main points that we drive home here today is that

(03:14):
we all have a little bit of tech in us.
I mean, it's definitely and tech is definitely in our
everyday lives. What about you will, Yeah, I completely agree
with Morgan, and I would just take it a step
further you know, at some point, you know, a hammer
was technology. You know, at some point a cup was technology. Um,
But as we think of it today, you know, it's

(03:36):
just new approaches that make things more efficient. You know,
they reduce waste, Technology makes things faster, Technology requires less
gasoline or less muscle. So computers are just a version
of that. And so UM, I want to be clear
that you know, no matter what industry you're in today,
you're probably working in tech, whether you're working in law,
whether you're working in healthcare. You know, not just that

(03:58):
you're building the next social media company or that you're
building the next software to help us do this what
we're doing today remotely all over the country, you know,
but you're probably doing something that employs um a lot
of technology. And it's not just isolated to computers. But
anything that helps our lives be more efficient and helps
us do what we do with less exertion, that's some
sort of technology. Absolutely, And I love that you brought

(04:22):
up the point that it literally at one point was
a hammer. So it was concrete things at one time,
and now we're speaking of tech when it comes to
bigger terms like an algorithm and where does this algorithm
live and where does the data live. And so that's
where it becomes intimidating to a lot of people, because
I think that there's a misconnection between those concrete, physical

(04:45):
things that we can actually touch, the word technology versus
let's let's just break it down from a construction aspect,
because you used the hammer. At one point, you had
architects that were actually drawing out plans on piece of paper.
And now you have computer systems where they're plugging in
these metrics and using geometry, and those computer systems are

(05:08):
are looking at plots of land and all those numbers,
and they are creating what was once on paper. And
so that disconnect is so intimidating to people. But I
love what you also said when you said that, um,
no matter what industry you come from, the you are
a part of tech and you can kind of you

(05:28):
can jump into this industry from there. And so I
think from my own experience being a black woman in tech,
I've seen it where black people shy away from getting
tech jobs because they don't feel equipped to necessarily take
on those roles even though they have the experience, like
you said, as a lawyer or in healthcare or so on.

(05:49):
Because they're dealing with that disconnect of the physical aspect
versus the now virtual big shebang of what do you
mean data? What do you mean all these tech terms?
I can't comply with that. I can't contend with it.
So I think it's interesting and also a great way
to introduce these our audience to tech and in this
podcast and what it looks like to be black in tech.

(06:12):
So I'm gonna jump into the next question in what
ways the tech industry influence or impact our everyday lives? Yeah,
I mean, I think the tech industry, like I was
saying earlier, is completely integrated into everything that we do,
and so, um you know, it used to be this
kind of concept of like, oh, how do I get
into tech? How do I, um like start to participate

(06:34):
in this ecosystem? In my response to anybody listening to this,
especially any students and collegetumes that you're already in tech,
whether you identify being in it or not, Like you
are a part of the ecosystem, whether that's because you're
a new user, but if you have an opinion when
you're using a product or you know, your whether it's
your cell phone, your computer, zoom, whatever, it may be

(06:56):
and you're like, oh man, I hate this button, or
I don't like using this this way. I wish that
it was smaller, heavier, lighter, it looked different. I wish
that I could, you know, use my camera this way.
You're in tech. You have an opinion about how products
are being built and used, and so you should take
that power and know that there's no one going to
give you permission to be in tech, like there's no

(07:18):
one that's like, there's no little cohort of people who
sit in the local value said you're in and you're
out right, So take it upon yourself to look into
these these things that you're curious about, look into these
things that you complain about. That's how I started Levity.
I was complaining to myself about the state of media
and coverage and conversations and issues and stories and platforms

(07:40):
for black people of my generation. And I was like, well,
maybe we should just make it then, you know, because
if not me, then you, And I really think that's important,
especially when you're young, to take it upon yourself to
learn more and to make it a party your journey.
So absolutely, I think the bottom line that you're mentioning
there was also just to use your man nation, because

(08:01):
I mean, like you said, if you want to button
in a different place, if you're using an app and
you find that the message center and Instagram, um you
wanted to be in a whole anther place. These are
all things that are possible. And so using just that
childhood imagination, you have tech at your fingertips, but then
also applying the imagination to it. And then let's say,

(08:22):
for instance, you're already a lawyer or and you then
you step into um tech when it comes to law,
you're able to put all that together and make sense
of it and actually deliver in the tech industry. And
so that's taking it even a step further. So what
are your thoughts on that whill I think you will

(08:42):
find a Morgan I agree on a lot of this stuff.
So I would do my best to take like different perspectives.
I would try to. I would try uh so I
think you know, I'll say this so one to your
point of like what people get intimidated, that's because of
like the scale that they see most technology that gets
front page news, and we don't always believe that in
our little corner of the world we can play in

(09:04):
that game. But if you know, we're talking to HP,
used to a SPC, used to this right now. So
if you created a group chat with the floor of
your dorm, you're participating in technology. You're using technology tools
to play in this field. If you're living on the
street and you've created, you know, just an email thread
where everybody on the street, you know, starts to communicate about, hey,

(09:25):
you know there's somebody's dog is loose. You're participating in
this thing, but in the way that it impacts our
daily lives. You know, more than talked about the opportunities there,
I want to talk about like how it can negatively
impact our day lives because when we don't own these
platforms that we participated, somebody else is taking the value
of what we participate, what we contribute to the conversation.
So that is actually impacting our daily lives because we

(09:49):
don't realize that value. And so we contribute so much
to these global platforms, but we don't get the revenue.
We don't we don't find ways to monetize because we
don't own on the platforms, and so that's actually in
real world terms, how are their lives are impacted? Because
there's a generational wealth being created off of our backs. Well,

(10:11):
that's definitely a great point too, and that's uh. I'm
glad you both brought up the pros and the cons
of what that looks like for us as participants in
the tech world UM. And like you mentioned, we are
speaking to HBCU UM audiences today and I just want
to even go back to when I was in college.
I actually didn't go to an HBCU, but it felt

(10:31):
like it. I went to the University of Memphis, the
home of Yogatti UM, and I just remember, even with
us being on campus, I am an a k Alpha
capa Alpha sorority Incorporated is the best, the first, and
the finest UM. But I just remember, even when we
were trying to create step shows or programs on campus,

(10:51):
and this is way back in two thousand and ten,
two thousand and eleven era UM, we were using technology,
we were implementing implementing videos into step shows, and we
were doing group chats like you mentioned, and all these
different sources of technology that you don't even realize are
going to manifest into careers one day. So I think
it's great that even when you think about it on

(11:14):
its college level, scale. You can take those skills, use
your imagination, apply that stuff, create your own apps, take
ownership of that, create your own programs, take ownership of that.
And even if you work at a company, you can
still create something for the company, patent it, take ownership
of it within the company. I work for my Heart,

(11:35):
but I also run my own blog and social media.
I'm a content creator too, And none of that came
out of the dark. It came from years of experience
actually testing and using my imagination and making applications along
the way to create a career out of all of this.
So I definitely think you both touched on some awesome things.
So I want to talk about what it looks like

(11:58):
for us as black people in the tech industry because
I know I'm one of few in in my industry
well in media and doing it on the tech side,
and statistics show that there are a few blacks in tech,
with less than six percent being black and less than
one percent black women, and so it can be a
lonely place for us. But I often feel like a pioneer.

(12:19):
Morgan and I actually hosted her first brunch um here
in Nashville, and we talked a lot about this being
women in the tech space. So I want to hear
from you first, Will Um why it's so important to
ensure inclusivity and representation in this sector so that we
can bring more people in. I mean, it's one and

(12:40):
here I am still the only black person on my team,
only black woman. That and I actually run all weekly
campaigns for my heart and so I don't see other
people who look like me on this side of the business.
And oftentimes I know, I feel like I am forge
in the path, I am pioneering this side of the business.

(13:01):
But I also can't wait, and I'm so excited to
bring everybody else into it with us. Everybody else it
looks like us. So what are your thoughts on it? Yes,
I think this is what you know, the value of
the greatest value afro tech has. It's you know, we've
created or mortgains, you know, and um, you know in
they've created an ecosystem for us to be able to

(13:23):
see ourselves right and so previous to afro tech being existence,
I went to my first afro Tech the second year
because I didn't know what happened the first year I
would have been there, but I went that second year
and I saw a room for the people, thousands of
people who looked like me in San Francisco. I'm sure
they had to be security called at the airport because
there's never that many black people in San Francisco. So

(13:46):
but to see that room with thousands of black people
all trying to build the next you know, Google or
the next you know corner again in that corner of
the world. I don't want to intimidate people with these
big scale things, but trying to build something right. But
to see a room full of people trying to build
something um that matters. And so people ask me and

(14:07):
how do I get involved? I'm like, you need to
go to afro Tech because you need to see yourself
in positions that are building these things. You need to
see rich black people who are building, who got who
made their money by building technology. And you're gonna see
that at afro Tech. You're gonna see people at the
beginning of their career, you know, building something. You're gonna
see people who are looking for co founders. You're gonna

(14:29):
see people who are looking too fund startups and who
look like you. And so you don't often get those
opportunities to be in the room for the people who
on again, like I talked about, me and Morten come
from different perspectives on this talk, I'm trying to um,
You're gonna see people on every side of the table
at a conference like afro Tech. People who want money,
people who want to give money, people who want a job,

(14:51):
people who are looking to hire. You know, at this conference,
you're gonna see people for whatever representation you need to
continue to go do your thing, going to see them
in the place tech. Yeah, I definitely think afro Tech
is an awesome place to get started. Um, And I
will say back to the whole entrepreneurial feat, I actually
went to afro Tech, I think in twenty sixteen, and

(15:14):
I was working for Maharry Medical College, which is the
first African American medical college in the United States. And
I was doing marketing at the time. And obviously, like
I keep saying, tech is in our everyday lives, so
I definitely used tech every day. But Maherry did not
send me to afro Tech. I actually asked my company
to send me to afro Tech and they said, no,

(15:35):
it doesn't it doesn't have anything to do with what
you do as a marketing manager for medical college and
so a lot of times people might be at company's
that are, like I mentioned at the beginning of the podcast,
generationally challenged, where they're not seeing the the effort or
the importance of incorporating tech and the continuing education and

(15:58):
seeing black people, rich black folks in spaces like this.
And so luckily I have created my own entrepreneurial ventures
with my blog and being an influencer, and I booked
a partnership with Uber, and Uber actually sent me to
afro Tech Tech the year that I went. And so
I want to say to everybody who's listening to this
podcast today is don't rely necessarily on your company. I

(16:21):
think a lot of times when we're in college, we're thinking, oh,
our company is gonna give us four one ks. Our
company is gonna gonna tell us that we can go
to this training and that training, and our company is
going to really um multiply what we're doing. Anyways, And
in my case, I had to work outside of what
I was doing to create the lane for myself and

(16:42):
be introduced to tech in a whole new way. So
I definitely think the Afro Tech was beneficial to me
because here a few years later, here I am Black
in tech um one and only, like I said, running
all the campaigns for I Heart Radio and so on
the app side of the business and so, and I
had the skill set. I was already doing it. It

(17:03):
just wasn't noticed by my colleagues, who, like I said,
are generationally is that's also an issue within tech where
we're not acknowledging that this younger generation can make a
TikTok video in two seconds, this younger generation can produce
a whole podcast in ten minutes, and you know, we
have to acknowledge an uplift that. And I think you

(17:24):
guys are doing an awesome job with afro Tech because
you are definitely making sure that people see that millennials
are right lazy and gen X is popping, so you know,
gen Z and everybody else, all everybody else around us,
it's moving forward with what we have at our fingertips.
So I definitely think that that's also great. That's also

(17:45):
a great point that you guys brought it up, and
I just want to make sure people know how to
get to it because it's like we're talking about this thing,
so you can go to afrotech dot com. We have
scholarships for HBCU students. We partnered with U and CF
this year to make sure that people could go for free. Um.
We know times can get tough in these weird COVID times,
So just go to afro tech dot com and apply
for the scholarship. It's in November and it's virtual this here,

(18:07):
so we'll have some happy hours in person, but most
of the experience will be in a metaverse actually that
we built where you get an avatar, you can walk around,
you can talk to people with audio, you can go
to different sessions. We have a club, we have performances. Um,
so definitely make sure you check out the website. Also,
don't you have events all throughout the year? I know,
I see you're you're always traveling on your worcations and

(18:27):
stay cations and things. Yeah, so we always have events.
Once you're in the community, we don't stop emailing you
and be like, hey, you want to come to Atlanta.
We have a happy hour in Atlanta. We had an
Aprotect happy hour this summer. Uh, you know, just like
you mentioned, we had our Woman's branch. Yeah, we like
to have events and bring people together. So how important
do you think it is? The actually network in the
tech industry before you. I mean, whether you're in the

(18:50):
tech industry or not. So if I'm in Nashville, how
important do you think it is for me to take
the four hour drive down to Atlanta and get to
know some people in the tech space, Because I know
when we hosted your brunch here in Nashville, we did
have people who traveled from other cities to come and
network and and learn more about how to break into
this industry. You know, Um, I think it's really important

(19:13):
for people to, especially in smaller gatherings, to actually make
that move. You know. The cool thing about a lot
of these local meetups is you're right, people will come
from all over the region. But because it's like a
hundred people, two hundred people, fifty people, you know, you
have more of an opportunity to build a connection with
somebody as opposed to going to conferences sometimes it could
be intimidating, right, be thousands and thousands of people there. Um,

(19:34):
And so it is great to always start on a
local level, on a regional level, and build up your
network so that you can be like, all right, we've
kicked it a couple of times. Let's go to AFRO
Tech in person together, you know, share a room and
make sure that you have your tribe with you as
you begin to navigate these different spaces. I also want

(19:57):
to talk about the connection that afro tech as with
corporations and what that looks like. So if somebody is
coming to UM an afro tech gathering, whether it's one
of the meetups in one of the cities or the
actual afro Tech shebang, which is so worth going. It's
worth the money at the time. The energy, like he said,
soon as you get off get off the plane and

(20:18):
whatever city is, then you feel that tech energy, you
feel black energy UM. So people want to know that
they're coming and they're going to be introduced to an opportunity.
So what does that look like you guys, relationship with corporations.
I know when you were in Nashville you mentioned that
UM companies are constantly seeking consultation from afro Tech so

(20:42):
that they can be inclusive of black people and bringing
black people into the space. Yeah, we work with hundreds
of clients and corporations who are best in class UM
companies in the world, working one hundreds, So you know
we're talking Baker of America working talking Twitter, Facebook, Google, Uh, salesforce. Uh. Incredible,

(21:03):
incredible companies that are looking every single day and full
time dedicated people who are looking to hire black folks
to work in their companies. And not just engineers, you know,
not just the nerves who are sitting on the algorithms
and building out the physical products or the digital products
or the sass products, but marketing, hr finance. And here's

(21:25):
the thing, then I want everybody to hear this. If
you're a marketing manager at a corporation that is only
growing ten percent per year per year, and you have
equity in that company, you know you're gonna get some
value and the fact that that you're contributing to their growth.
But you also could do the exact same job at
a company that's growing per year per year, and your

(21:48):
equity will also increases, just like the stock market, you know.
And so working at these high growth tech companies, venture
backed companies, companies that have used venture funds to grow
and quickly, could have an incredible impact on your wealth
because you don't just get your base salary, but you
also get access to equity and options, and that can

(22:09):
completely change your trajectory financially. So we've seen that time
and time. Again. That's why I encourage people, regardless of
where you are, whether you are in tech or not
in tech, come to AFRO Tech and just talk to
the recruiters because you never know they could come up
and be like, here's an offer. You know, people get
offers on the spot. People do interviews during the conference,

(22:29):
on the virtual conference, and even when we're in person.
So um, yeah, don't be shy. So you mentioned that
people get offers on the spot, and that was gonna
be one of my next questions for you. Does the
typical old fashion resume and apply for a job gets
you in the door in this new world of tech,
because let's face it, everybody is sitting at home putting

(22:51):
in applications and where applications right? So I don't know.
I was like, I mean, you're laf thousand applications and resumes,
Like what what's really going to get people over the
hub to get in the door, to get the interview,
to get this job. I don't know, Well, what do

(23:11):
you think? I mean, we see so many applications even
just that bravity and then I'm sure you get a
bunch of resumes that your video and for folks we're
looking to get into tech. Yeah, I think it depends
on the role. So if I'm looking for, you know,
an engineer, the resume, depending on the company, the resume
might mean less to me than seeing your work. I
want to see the actual work product that you've developed.

(23:32):
So I want to see your portfolio. Send me some
links of things that you develop and tell me what
your role was on building that thing if you did
it with other people. Now, if I want to work
in the marketing department, probably portfolio matters. Your resume might
additionally matter because maybe you didn't get a chance to
stretch your legs and some of those things that you
learned how to do in your previous job or your

(23:53):
educational experience. But I want to be clear, like because
more than pointed to this, but I want to make
sure that it lands that these are not just technical roles.
These are not just engineering roles. If I went to
school for healthcare, you can find a role in a
traditionally tech company. You think Fitbit is not hiring people
that you know came from the medical field, Yes they are.

(24:16):
You think like Facebook has campuses in several parts of
the world, and you think they don't have anybody on staff.
You know, you think about like high school and you
know elementary you have like the nurse you know in
the school nurse like you think they don't have like
a nurse who takes care of those thousands of people
who reside on one campus. Those are roles that you
can find yourself in in some of the biggest companies

(24:36):
in the world. So I want to make sure that
it lands that these are not just engineering people. These
are not just people who went to school for computer science.
But whatever field you work in, Facebook, Google, TikTok, fan
base out of Atlanta, they hire attorneys, right, and so
you can find you can find your role no matter
what you went to school for, no matter what you

(24:58):
learn how to do in your basement, you can find
a role in technology. Oh my goodness, he said, in
the basement. Well, I learned. I mean that's how I learned.
I learned. I'm I'm a front of developer, so jobs
I learned because I have to have a money pay anybody,
and so I learned in my b That's right, Um,

(25:18):
Which is gonna be another question that I have for you.
Do you feel like nowadays? Because I know when when
we were coming out of school, I think you guys
are around the same time two thousands tens, two thousand
and eleven, inch Um, we were kind of talked, well,
for one, we were all talked, go get your education,
and that's your golden ticket to the American dream. And
we all know that that is not true. It has

(25:39):
to be manifested way past just getting a general bachelor's
degree in some in some respects. And so then once
people graduated from college, and at that time, we're in
the middle of recovering from a recession and trying to
step into this new world that's transitioning to text stuff.

(25:59):
A lot of people couldn't find jobs. So then they're like, well,
let me go back to school and get a degree
in professional studies or um, get an NBA or what
have you. And so do you guys think that in
in the midst of this pandemic, when these hbc S
students are considering their careers or the next steps, it's

(26:20):
it's monopoly. It's like, do I take this road to
get started in some sort of career or do I
go back to college and collect a hundred thousand dollars
in debt. It's like, do you think that the path
to education is the right path or the path to
just get out here and get to learning in your
basement and make some stuff happen. Which what do you

(26:42):
guys think if you're getting a skill at school? Get
your skills up? Like that's ultimately the narrative. It's like,
what do your skills look like? You know? If you
want to be a computer science major, cool, And if
you don't have the access to do it on your own,
and you need that structure, you need that coaching, you
need that feedback, you need that access to internships and
things of that nature, then school is a great place

(27:04):
for you. If you're going to school and you're not
actually interested in the learning of a skill. And I'm
just not just talking, you know. If you're a history major,
I'm just like, but why though, you know like you
can that's you don't know, if it's to the history.
I was a policy my major, but I did that
because I didn't want to go to class so that
I could spend all my time working on side hustles

(27:26):
and you know, student groups, you know. So school is
also about social networks. So if you're a most more
social person, go to school in a place where you
can build a tribe, build a network that can help
you be your co founders for your business. You know,
I started my business with friends I went to college with.
I would have never been able to do that. I
find and go to school, you know, to have access
to people from all over the country with different experiences

(27:48):
than me, that have are smarter than me in so
many different ways. I wouldn't have had to add access.
So get a skill if you're a skilled person, or
build your network, um, so that you can make sure
that no matter where you are, people are going to
refer you to a job. You know. I know people
have never applied to a job because jobs are just
handed to them because their network is so incredible. Right

(28:08):
that stuff starts in college. Yeah, I definitely thinks that too. Yes,
I try to come from a different perspective, as I
will try again because again I will agree with everything
you just said. And I have to be careful to
because I'm a university trustee, so I have to be
careful and how I respond to this. So but I
say this in the boardroom too, and so I'm like, look,
colleges and universities have to really re evaluate their value proposition,

(28:32):
you know, to your point of you know what, it's
not just having your degree anymore. It's not just it's
not your ticket anymore. Um, it used to be your ticket,
you know. But as our world becomes more entrepreneurial, Like
I'm an entrepreneur. I run three businesses out of this
office that I'm in right now, So I don't really
care that you graduated from college. I care that you

(28:53):
can do the work. So as the people that I
look for there, I don't have a time to even
look at the resume. I wanted to see what you
can do and the faster you can get onboarded to
be able to fulfill a role in my organization. And
I would believe Morgan would agree with this. The faster
you can come in and contribute, the faster I am
to hire you, because the years, the days of like

(29:16):
three months on boarding periods and you know all this
nonsense like I don't have time for that or the
runaway for that. So I need you to come in
and contribute. And so the more we get to a
day that, you know, more and more organizations need people
who can just come in and just start to kick
some button on at least they five they tend give
me something. You know, the faster you will be able
to find yourself in a role. And lastly, you know

(29:39):
the thing about like going to school, I completely agree
with Morgan again of like, I don't come from a
place to where it's like there's a bunch of technical
talent or there was a bunch of entrepreneurs or people
starting companies for etcetera. So in a place like this,
like it may be valuable to go to school in
this way because that's where you go find the network.
So now you have use like apro tech where you

(30:01):
don't necessarily happen to go spend forty grand a year
to go get that network. But there are ways to
go generate that network in other respects. So if you
go to school, fine, but just a question why are
you going? Because you've got to have a reason. It's
not just going because that's going to be a ticket,
because that doesn't exist to you. Yeah, and I also
just want to bring up the importance that education is

(30:21):
still it's still definitely a half of your little red ticket.
It's just not the whole golden ticket. So when you
do the raffle is the half of it, and you
just have to get in there and work the rest
of the lottery so that you can figure out your
life planning. UM. I know for me, I went to
school for broadcast journalism and I thought I wanted to

(30:43):
be a news reporter. And then when I got which
I always had interests in multiple different fields and I
was doing so many different things. In undergrad I had
intern for the Congressional Black Cocus Foundation. I worked at
the local news station in Memphis covering who shot John UM,
I was a ready a personality in Memphis. I had
done all these different things. And when I graduated and

(31:04):
I collected networks in college from a k A To
doing leadership stuff in the community in Memphis, I can.
I wanted to have all these things to be able
to present myself to whatever field and opportunity was available
for me out there. And I will say my first
job out of college, I ended up running marketing and
social media for UM First Tennessee, which is a regional

(31:27):
bank in Tennessee. And I was the youngest. I was
twenty two years old, and I was the one of
maybe four black people and stepping into that space. I
don't think I ever would have gotten that opportunity if
I didn't have a degree, which is unfortunate because there
were people working there who didn't have degrees. And then

(31:47):
I worked in marketing for about four or five years
before I decided to go back and get my m
b A. And um I worked for human as a
social media manager during that time, and then after that
I kind of saw what it looked like to be
black in corporate America and try to present yourself with
all the skills, with all the qualifications, and still not

(32:09):
be able to get to a level that you want
to get to. So for me, I was like, well,
I'm gonna go and get my m b A. So
that if I am challenged on the educational aspect, I
have the skills and I have the charisma to get
this job done. But I also want to be able
to present to them, hey, I have the education too,
so don't check me. And so I think it's also

(32:31):
okay for you to gather from every bucket that you
can so that you are prepared to basically grapple in
this workforce. And like I said, when the lottery, when
it's all said and done, whether you're in corporate America
or an entrepreneurship, Because I think It's even carried me
as far as entrepreneurship goes, being able to run my
own business as a blogger and influencer. And I just

(32:55):
think it's important for us to consider what that looks
like because a lot of time you might not even
get a foot in the door of a tech company
if you don't have what it, if you don't have
it on paper. I was telling Morgan at her brunch
here in Nashville and the audience that I actually recommended
somebody and he had tech experience, or he had product

(33:17):
marketing experience. He did not have direct tech experience, and
so he was not given the job because he didn't
have tech experience. And so I think it's one of
those things where it's like, Okay, well, now go back
to your basement, like you said, and learn some CSS
or some HTML, or learn what that looks like and
apply it back to what you already have so that

(33:39):
you can be a comparable UM person to contend with
in that space. Yeah, I want to I want to
point back to something Morgan said a little while ago
about the company that's growing ten percent a year versus
the company that's growing year, right, And we got to
realize like for very many years, for a long time
through resume that college credential was the lazy way of

(34:03):
saying this person should be qualified to do the thing.
So people are lazy. So if you've got the degree,
I just assume that you should be you know, able
to come in here and kick. But but that's today.
The person who just reallies on your credential is probably
the company that's growing ten percent, and so probably even
you know, retracting. You know, it's in many respects, but

(34:25):
the person the people who are growing focent year over
the year probably look more at the work you can
do than your credential. There in some respects, you know.
And let's not if I'm a white boy and I
went to Stanford, that's just like super easy to get
it anywhere. But for the large majority of people listening
to this, you know, the work product that you can

(34:47):
deliver will get you hired faster at Levity, will get
you hired faster at I heard, will get you hired
faster at a lot of these organizations. So I just
I want to give people caution on leaning on the
credential just to get in the door, because I want
to look sideways at the person who's just leaning on
my paperwork, because that company is probably not going to

(35:08):
be the fastest, you know, growing the fastest moving vehicle
for my future opportunity. Absolutely, I definitely think delivery when
it's doss said and done, is the bottom line for
this um. You can't just so we're looking at this
monopoly board. It's like, yeah, you need you need to
figure out how to take a road to the right end,
road to the left and pick up the kids along

(35:28):
the way, and you know, make it all the way
to the end of this board and collect houses and
properties along the way too. I think it's a lot
more complex than just taking a one level of path.
So to anybody who's trying to step into this tech
industry or any career for that matter, I think you're
definitely right about that. We can't necessarily focus on one

(35:51):
interim to get us into that space. And I worked
in higher education, as I mentioned before, at Marry Medical
College and higher education. You cannot get a job in
higher education if you do not have a degree. And
so I think that that's also a conversation that we
need to start furthering with a lot of companies, is

(36:12):
that you know, we don't. You don't necessarily need a
degree in this day and time. We're no longer working
from an encyclopedia or a textbook. We are working with
the Internet, which is at our fingertips. We're working with
social media, we're working with tech apps, all these things
to teach ourselves in our basement and to bring these
things to the table. So I think it totally needs

(36:33):
to be reevaluated um when it comes to a lot
of sectors of business, and not just tech, because I
think people people, a lot of people are still adhering
to that old school way of thinking of whatever he
has on a piece of paper. And I think, Marian
you mentioned this at the brunch that somebody asked you
a question about hiring people and the different needs for

(36:54):
the business at different times, and so you thought you
needed a person who had EX skill set, and then
you hired them, and then you saw that they didn't
have X skill set or maybe they needed a little
notch up um when it comes to that skill set,
I think those are things that we got to start
having more external conversations about so that people are aware

(37:17):
of these things. It's like you have to constantly be
evolving as a as a career person in the tech
industry because it's all moving so fast. So I don't
know if you guys had anything else to add to
that subject, but if not, I agree with you. I mean,
I think the other thing that's happening, there's a lot
of title inflation happening because of like this competition, very

(37:40):
competitive market. So you know, being a VP at a
big company is very different than being a VP at
a company of five people, right, and so, um, it's
really interesting and I just think it's really important that people,
especially as you're starting your career, you know, don't worry
too much about the title. You don't need to be
a director by the time you're twenty four, you know,

(38:00):
it's okay, because if you inflate your title too much,
you may mind up in a situation where you're hired
for something because people are assuming your skill set like
well is saying, and then potentially you do or do
not upset skill set, and then what then what are
we gonna do? Right, So, in the in your early
twenties and your early in your career, focused on your
core leadership, your core professionalism, your core communication skills written

(38:24):
and verbal. You know, the things that are fundamentals that
regardless of your titles, regardless of whether you work for
yourself or somebody else's gonna be things that helped make
you successful. That's that's all we're saying, right, And if
you are going to decide to work for somebody else,
maybe you should consider working in tech. Yeah, for sure.

(38:45):
So I do want to dab a little bit more
into that because you're speaking to the twenties somethings, and
then there's those of us that are the thirty somethings,
and then you got the forty somethings who grew up
in the A O l age and they were doing
the A O L chat and so, but they're very
well aware of things that they can do with tech,
with apps. I mean, we saw that with the adaptation

(39:07):
of Clubhouse. It happened so fast and people were using that.
Um people the other day when Facebook and Instagram crashed,
everybody went to Twitter. So we're all utilizing these spaces
to um figure out how to steal run our businesses.
People are building their websites so that they have ownership
outside of social media platforms. So what does that look

(39:28):
like to you guys when it comes to agism and generations.
I know we're speaking to twentysomething year old or just
the second ago we were, But what does that look
like if I'm forty five? I'm forty three, and I've
been working in healthcare as a as a billing coder
for all these years, and now I want to switch
over to the tech industry. What does that look like?

(39:50):
Are there opportunities out here for people, um who are
older to step into this tech industry? I think so.
I think some art companies realize that in order to grow,
you've got to have a wide variety of perspectives to
be able to, you know, get that market attraction. So
if you think about it, you know, ten years ago,

(40:12):
you know this is a shot guard. But about so
ten years ago, you know, Facebook's core population, you know,
was you know what eighteen to late twenties, and now
it's probably over forty you know, so those you know,
younger folks have moved on to other platforms. So there
are still some younger people there. But how can Facebook
communicate to these folks if they don't employ those folks?

(40:34):
Because everybody has some sort of value to bring to
the table, and it's our job it's mortgage job. It's
my job is you know, if you're an employer, it's
your job to find the value that's that's some sort
that some portion of your demographic brings to the table.
So there are some experiences a forty year old will
have that a twenty year old just won't have, and

(40:56):
that is valuable to a company who's trying to grow.
And so, you know, the bigger we're talking about scales.
So one of the first conversations we had in this conversation,
if you're building a tech company, you're probably doing something
to you know, amplify output. And so if I want
to build a tech company so that I can you know,
not swing the hammer once, but I can make that

(41:16):
I can swing it once and now the robot keeps
it swinging forevermore. You know, that's what tech does. It
helps to scale that effort. And so to have people
of wide variety of backgrounds, wide variety of demographics, they
each add something different to the pot. And this is
the same conversation we were having over the last decade
with having black people at the table, because if you
just got a room for the white people, you're missing

(41:39):
a key part of the conversation, and the same thing
goes with age. Yeah, I absolutely think so. But I
definitely wanted to talk about the age aspect because even
long before the age of tech, my aunt was an
executive for Xerox for years and then, um, probably about
ten years ago, she's in her late forties. About ten
years ago, she got a call from a twenty three

(42:00):
year old and that said her career at Xerox was over.
And she's been working at Xerox since she was like
twenty and she thought the traditional path of working her
way up at this company was going to lead her
to retirement. And here she is in her late forty
something's and she's trying to figure out what the next
steps look like. And because she had that title and

(42:21):
the pay and the role in all of it, it
was kind of hard for her to transition elsewhere. So
I'm just wondering, is tech the industry that's going to
sustain us past these times where we've kind of maxed
out when it comes to a position, max that when
it comes to the money at a corporation. UM, I'm
just wondering, is this space going to make retirement longer?

(42:43):
I mean, or make the workforce uh space for us
to be in longer, not retirement. UM. So when I
think of me being fifty years old, if I'm still
working in corporate America, Can I work till seventy in
the tech world or is it gonna be by choice
not by four force? Or is it gonna be all
over for me if I get laid off at fifty

(43:04):
and I'm trying to get a job in the twenty
three year old? Is an interview with me? That's tough.
I mean, I think that we shouldn't be dependent on
any company for our financial wealth and uh safety in
our retirement. You know. I think that's something that we've
learned through other generations that you cannot rely on the government.
You know, you cannot rely on pensions, you cannot rely

(43:26):
on these companies UM treating you with respect as you age.
So I would say everybody's got to protect themselves UM
and build that financial savings and retirement plan that is
not dependent on the tech industry or any company saying
yes to them at their older age. And you know,

(43:48):
the good thing about as you age is like you
have compounding interests, so as you save and you save,
and you save and you save. UM you should be
fine as long as you're saving at a young age.
You're saving. At our age, you're saving. We were in
our bunnies and that that egg is growing and growing
and growing. Um. The other thing I would say is
there is a bit of wisdom that comes with age,
and I see that a lot now. I started my

(44:10):
company as twenty four, which you know was great, But
now that I'm older, I'm like, oh, yeah, you were
doing a lot. You know, there was a lot of
different things that that I can I would not do
now having had more experience. And so I think one
of the things that folks who are been in the
workforce longer bring to the table is that wisdom. Maybe
they don't know how to automate their emails and filters

(44:33):
and all these things, all the gadgets and the tricks,
but there's nothing that's gonna um out automate leadership. There's
nothing that's gonna out automate managing and being an empathetic
manager to your team, you know, being able to influence,
create strategy. You don't need to make a deck. I
hope by the time I'm fifty, I don't ever make
a deck again that somebody is making the deck for me. Okay,

(44:54):
I don't care how you make it right. So hopefully
as you all, we all older, were transitioning into some
of those other core elements of of excellence at the
leadership level within these corporations and that should be respected.
But if it's not, we have our safety net. Yeah,
I want to I want to say this last thing
because Morgan and I are both from the Midwest, and

(45:16):
so we come from places where like manufacturing was like
a thing, like the core opportunities you had, you didn't
even have to go to college, Like you can get
a job paying a bunch of money if you can
do this all that, like all they want, like that's
all you have to do is pull the lever right.
And so then I want to be real with folks,
like that day is not here anymore where you can

(45:36):
just not have any skills and get a lifelong and
get a gold watch at the end, or if you've
got a gold watch, that day is not here anymore.
So I do believe the people who are probably listening
to this podcast live in a day to where you
will constantly have to reimagine your value, like what value
do you offer the marketplace? We don't live in the
day to where I can. I know this company is

(45:58):
gonna it's just k market. We see what happen ca Mark.
You know, this is general Bolders, this is whatever the
where you can. You can rest as shure this company
is gonna be here for sixty years. That day is
not here anymore, you know. So we have to be
sure to mortgage point that you are setting yourself up
to be successful no matter what a company does for you.
All right, HBC audiences. I hope you guys are taking

(46:21):
all those gems in because it's not just about you
breaking into the tech industry. It's about you creating a
sustainable life plan for yourself. It's about you developing skills
along the way and constantly evaluating those and and just
being fluent as you go throughout life. Because tech is
not going anywhere. It's going to continue to evolve, it's

(46:41):
going to continue to change, and there's so many opportunities
I think for us to forge and pioneer within the industry.
Do you guys agree that there are ample opportunities? I mean,
like I said, we're at the cusp of of this
revolution of tech. Don't y'all think that there's gonna be
way more what do y'all firs see in like the
next five years, in the next ten years, Yeah, I mean,

(47:06):
I think automation of a simple, repetitive tasks are going
to be more prevalent. So I think it's going to
be about like really making sure that we're designing said
automation systems and the logic behind how things are done
instead of like actually being able to code the code.
Can you set up the computer to code the code

(47:28):
itself and adjust as needed as things change. So strategic
thinking and critical thinking is going to be more and
more important as we all as the world just becomes
more automated and also more global. That's the second thing
that i'd add is like, you know the walls. We
saw this with COVID. You know, people being in the
US versus people being in China. It doesn't really matter.

(47:49):
We're all connected, and that connectivity is only going to
continue to accelerate from the continent to South America. UM
And so having a glow global experience or global connection
and being a global, global, worldly person. I think it's
also going to be a strategic advantage in the type industry. Specifically,
I agree with that for sure. Yeah, I would add,

(48:11):
you know, because Morgan took that perspective, I'll take another one. Um.
So I believe I'm been having some really great conversations
with investors, and I think the more we see black
people getting in key roles to be able to deploy capital,
We're gonna see some really interesting things happen. So there's
this thing about you, like, like, let's say, like black
men change the face of sports as we see it, Um,

(48:34):
black men change the face of a lot of industry
as we see it. I think black women investors are
going to be the leading um, you know, vertical in
that space because we are seeing some really remarkable things
happen with black mentor capitalists, with black women mentor capitalist,
I should say, black women and angel investors, because I

(48:54):
believe women have this particular pulse, particularly Black women have
a particular pulse you know, on what's going to move,
you know, being able to judge character, being able to
judge our mission, being able to judge about integrity. And
so I've seen some really interesting things happen with black
women investors, and so I want to make sure people
are paying attention to But you don't necessarily have to

(49:15):
be building a company, but you could be building builders, absolutely.
And Morgan brought black venture black women venture capitalists at
the brunch here in Nashville, and I really wanted her
to break that down for the audience because I think
a lot of times when we think about raising money
in the tech space or just raising money in general,
coming from our culture, we think we can call our

(49:37):
grandma and our cousin. And I mentioned that at the brunch,
So I had Morgan break it down because I was like,
the people need to know that you can't call on
your aunties and cousin and then to come through for
you with the type of money and resources that are
out there that are available to you. So first of all, well,
can you tell us what a venture capitalist is, because

(50:00):
I think that that's first and foremost and what that
looks like as far as opportunities for entrepreneurs to connect
with the venture capitalists and get their ideas off the
ground financially, Yeah, I think for me to be able
to adjust, So I gotta tell you what a VC
isn't an angel investor at the same time, So typically
an angel investor is somebody who has the pockets their
own they're investing their capital that they believe is on

(50:23):
a good horse, you know, or on a good jockey,
I should say, because it's typically investing in the jockey,
not the horse, which is the person, not the idea
that the person comes with, because your idea will probably
change over time. A venture capitalists is somebody who invests
capital that's not necessarily their own, though they may have
some of their own money in the past, but they're
investing on behalf of institutions, whether that be UM, some

(50:47):
LPs limited partners who let's say, you know, Bravity, you know,
invested in Will Lucas to be able to go invest
that capital on their behalf. So they may not necessarily
be involved in the day to day management of the
on but they believe Will Lucas. The VC is somebody
who can get good deals. So Morgan writes me to check,
and I then go right to check to a startup founder.

(51:10):
Oh that's perfect. Thank you for breaking that down for us.
And when we speak of black women taking over that
sector of this of the industry, what does that look
like for you? I know you mentioned that our discernment
and just we just have a special gift to be
able to take on a role like that. What does
that look like when you say, in the next five

(51:31):
or ten years the number of do you know the
number of black women that are already venture capitalist or
do you have around any roundabout statistics, It's definitely less
than a hundred. We can probably safely say that, Like
at a partner level, decision making, check writing level, there's
a lot of associates and folks um earlier in their
careers that are getting into VC, but um in terms

(51:52):
of like fund managers, um partners, adventure partners or like principles,
people couldn't atually break chucks two folks um. Yeah, probably
less than a hundred, but certainly more than it was
five steven years ago when I was getting started. Absolutely,
and what guys checks are they necessarily writing words that

(52:14):
I just want to get people a full perspective of
what this looks like because a venture capitalists broll up
to me is it's it's not something you can step
trade out of college into. It seems to me that
it's something that you have to build towards. So what
does that journey look like? And then what constitutes I
guess on a financial level, how much money, what kind

(52:36):
of checks are they writing. Like I said, again, I
just want to break this down for Layman's terms, because
when we think of raising money, it's not getting a
hundred dollar check from your grandmother or like I said,
a hundred dollar check from your cousin. It's it's bigger
than that. You know, there's a lot of different UM
days ago to venture compit. I don't know that we

(52:56):
have uh enough time to get into it, but I
definitely can say that UM for startups that are early stages,
the checks tend to be in the fifty or twenty
five to a hundred thousand dollar range, and the kind
of angel check or precede round checks, and then seed
round can be anywhere between two and fifty thousand, you know,

(53:20):
all the way up to a couple of million dollars
depending on the type of industry that tranna how big
they think the business can get UM. But you know,
venture backed businesses and and venture backed startups it's a
tough it's a tough game. So I think it's really
important that people first evaluate if it even makes sense
for their business and the problem that they're solving, UH
to go the venture route, and just know that there's

(53:42):
a lot of strings attached to those do that money.
There's a lot of growth expectations, there's a lot of
power expectations. Norms of people will get equity in your
business and you will reduce your ownership levels. So UM,
so many different things. We talked about this a ton
on Black Tech, Green Money, on Will's podcast, and certainly
on afro chech dot com, signing up to the newsletter,

(54:03):
following us on Instagram. We're constantly featuring black founders who
have raised gone through this pathway and been very successful
at growing and scaling their companies. Thank you for prefacing that.
Like I said again, I think that this is how
we bring people into the industry is by giving them
just a little bit of forthroot thought on what this
looks like and to actually use their imagination, because some

(54:26):
people just aren't even thinking, oh I can get a
million dollars for my business, I can get the fifty
thousand dollars for my business. So I think it's so
important to to UM bring that up. And I think
it's time we're gonna wrap this up. You guys. You
guys have been so great today giving us so much information.

(54:48):
UM from applying it to just everyday life skills, to
actually building careers, to actually being able to create a
sustainable life plan. So I have to say thank you
Will and Morgan again. They dropped to where they can
be found Afro Tech, Bravity and Will's podcast. Tell us
a little bit more about it and then we'll wrap

(55:08):
it up. Yeah, I'm close from Morgan. So Black Tech,
Green Money you can get wherever you get your podcast. Um.
It is an official afrotech podcast distributed by the Black
Effect Podcast Network and I Heart Media. So wherever you
get your podcast, we have the conversations um like this.
You know one stands who are specifically about helping black
people find their success in tech, media and business. Well,

(55:30):
thank you guys so much for listening today. I'm Jasmine Sweet.
Thank you for joining me and Will and Morgan for
this Black and Tech episode. For more of I Heart
Radio Black and Inspired HBCUs Celebration podcast series, you can
listen on the I Heart Radio app, Apple podcast and
wherever you get your podcasts.