Inside W Training Camp & the Women Who Built the Game

In this jam-packed episode, Khristina dives into the start of WNBA training camp season with longtime AP women’s basketball writer and Hall of Famer Doug Feinberg. They break down Paige Bueckers’ arrival in Dallas, rookies to watch, the ongoing roster crunch, and the league’s push to grow visibility—from expanded preseason coverage to global exhibition games. Later, Khristina is joined by Pamela Grundy and Susan Shackelford, authors of Shattering the Glass: The Remarkable History of Women’s Basketball, for a powerful conversation on the game’s origins, Title IX, cultural evolution, and the pivotal figures who paved the way. 

 

Want more women’s basketball scoop? Follow the show on Instagram @ICYMIwithKW and X @ICYMIwithKW and for more on Khristina, follow her on Instagram @khristinawilliams 

 

Let us know what you think of the show by leaving a rating and a review! 

 

 

CREDITS

Executive Producers:

Nikki Ettore 

Jessie Katz

Tyler Klang

Jonathan Strickland

Producers:

Mike Coscarelli

Buffy Gorrilla

Producer & Editor:

Tari Harrison

Host:

Khristina Williams

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:01):
In Case You Missed It with Christina Williams is an
Iheartwomen's sports production in partnership with Deep Blue Sports and Entertainment.
Welcome to another episode of In Case You Missed It
with Christina Williams. We have an action packed episode for
you today. As you all know, the WNBA training camps

(00:22):
tipped off around the league this past weekend. So here
it'll break down all the headlines. We'll have Associated Press
writer Doug Feinberg join us, and then later we're in
for a special conversation with Shattering the Glass authors Susan
Shackleford and Pamela Grundy. So let's get into the latest
headlines with Doug Finberg. Doug, Welcome to the show.

Speaker 2 (00:44):
Hey, Christina, how are you doing today.

Speaker 1 (00:46):
I'm doing good and I'm super excited to have you
here because I feel like you're like an encyclopedia of
all things with basketball. You've been working at AP since
nineteen ninety five, and you've been covering the WU since
the early two thousands. Lots of experience throughout all of
the decades in your journey of covering women's sports. What's

(01:07):
been the most satisfying thing about your journey and being
a part of the media ecosystem.

Speaker 3 (01:13):
You know, it's funny. I think it's something actually recent
with just the growth of women's basketball and women's sports
in general.

Speaker 2 (01:19):
I mean, you've seen.

Speaker 3 (01:20):
An explosion the last couple of years in college and
the pros with just attention on the game. That's very
well deserved for the players, for the coaches. People are
paying attention.

Speaker 2 (01:29):
That to me is a.

Speaker 3 (01:30):
Long time media writer and soul who loves the game
to see it explode last couple of years that I
couldn't ask for more.

Speaker 1 (01:38):
And I just want to first congratulate you on making
the US Basketball Writers Associations Hall of Fame, because you
are the goat to be and you know, when I
first came on the scene, I feel like you were
one of the nicest people in terms of just welcoming
in the new media into the space. And so we

(01:59):
talked to about your journey and just what you think
has changed and what's been the most satisfying thing about
your journey. But how did you get moved to the
WB what attracted you to want to cover women's basketball?

Speaker 2 (02:13):
Well, first off, thank you very much.

Speaker 3 (02:14):
I mean it's humbling to be honored by anybody for anything,
and to be in a Hall of fame. For me,
it's like I feel like I'm the third quarter of
my career, so to speak, so I still have some
time in front of me. I have a whole other quarter,
maybe over time.

Speaker 2 (02:26):
If the game goes the right way.

Speaker 3 (02:29):
But to me, what's really special, and I appreciate what
you said about welcoming people. That's to me important that
this is a space to grow and to welcome people
like yourself. And you've done a tremendous job over the
last couple of years helping grow the league and doing
a great job growing your own brand. I think that's important.
I mean, the sport has spaced for everybody, and it's

(02:49):
been something that I've enjoyed sharing with people and sort
of helping this sport grow, and that to me has
been very special for so many years and something that
I hope to see continue blossom. I guess it's like
a flower or a tree that's grown over the last
couple of years. It still has a lot of growth
left in it, and it's finally seeing the fruits of
the labor of those that came before me. Even to

(03:09):
watch it grow. To answer your question, as far as
how I got into this besides being sports right, I've
actually coached girls basketball in high school for the last
thirty years as well, so I always had attraction to
women's basketball, girls basketball, seeing sort of the undertold stories
get told, and I sit in my boss in like
two thousand and six, Hey, you know, I like women's basketball.

Speaker 2 (03:32):
I coach high school.

Speaker 3 (03:33):
I'd love to sort of jump on the bandwagon, so
to speak, back then and cover it for the Associated Press.
There's an opening and she's like, sure, go right ahead.
So that was like two thousand and six, and now
we're about twenty years later and still doing it.

Speaker 1 (03:47):
Well. I appreciate all the work that you do in
the community and in our media space, and I want
to dive right into this week's headlines. WNBA training camp
is underway, and we just completed the WNBA Draft not
to long ago, and all of the new draftees are
arriving at training camp. I don't know if you've seen
Page Beckers on social media. Book she's already getting very

(04:08):
familiar with Dallas barbecue, the hats, the boots. How ready
do you think she is for.

Speaker 3 (04:14):
The w I think she's ready on and huff the court.
I mean, she is just a walking bucket on the court.
She her efficiency in college is through the through the roof.
She makes her teammates better. She'll she'll fit right in Dallas.
They obviously have a really good team with Rique and
Mattie Segris and a few others that will be there
to help her along the journey. But she's she's going

(04:35):
to be I think, a really good pro for Dallas
for the next couple of years and beyond Off the court.
I mean, she's got a fun personality, cowgirl page, loves
her food like it just She's a great fit for
wherever she went, and I think she can help re
energize that Dallas franchise, So she'll be great down there.

Speaker 2 (04:53):
There's no question that she's going to be one.

Speaker 3 (04:55):
Of the rising young stars to go with the Caitlin
Clarks to Andrew Reese's cam and brings the last couple
of years that I think is going to be lifting
this the WNBA even further.

Speaker 1 (05:04):
Are there any other rookies that you are keeping your
eyes on?

Speaker 3 (05:07):
Well, I think a lot of a rookie success deals
is where they are if there's opportunity, and obviously Washington
and Connecticut are two franchises that are sort.

Speaker 2 (05:15):
Of in the rebuilding mode.

Speaker 3 (05:17):
So you have Sonya Citron, you have Kiki Erfn, you
have Georgia R. Moray in Washington, you have Anissa Marrow
in Connecticut. I think can have a nice year just
because of opportunity. I mean, if you have a chance
to play and get a lot of minutes, you could
do a lot of good things. So those are two
franchises and four players that I think are gonna have
a nice year just because they'll have a chance to

(05:37):
be on the court and grow and they'll be growing
pants and not going to be successful. I think all
the time we saw it last year with Caitlin Angel
that there were times that early on they struggled because
it's going from college with the pros playing against eighteen
to twenty two year olds were displaying grown women. So
I think it's gonna be a chance for them to
have some success and some failures along the way to

(05:57):
learn from.

Speaker 2 (05:57):
But those are probably the four just.

Speaker 3 (05:59):
Because of the opportunity theyre going to have playing in
those two franchises.

Speaker 1 (06:02):
Yeah, I agree with that, and you hear that say
the same thing all the time. Like when you're in
these training camps, attach yourself to a vet so that
you know, you can get familiar and I probably hope
your chances of making a roster spot Sunday training camp
tipped off. And for the people listening who have never
been to a training camp, can you just describe what
it's like to be at a camp?

Speaker 3 (06:23):
Well, from our standpoint of the media, it feels like
in probably the players to the first day at school,
right you haven't seen people in a while. There's the joy,
the excitement that you're there for the first day in
a few months. For the Liberty where I was on Sunday,
obviously they're coming off their first title ever, so there's
still that sort.

Speaker 2 (06:37):
Of excitement from that.

Speaker 3 (06:39):
It's a fun experience. I mean just to be there
and see they're going through drills and it seems like
everyone's happy right now to talk to us. In the media, usually,
you know, July August towards the middle of the year,
the dog is the summer, they don't really want to
talk to us as much as right now. The first day,
like everyone's happy to see you, like the first day
at school, and then you get sort of fall into

(06:59):
the new routine and it gets a little bit more
shall we say, not unfriendly, but just more business like.
But it's like would you do this summer? What you
or in this case, what'd you do this winter? Just
to get you back to where you were when we
last saw them, probably about five months ago.

Speaker 2 (07:15):
Although I will.

Speaker 3 (07:15):
Say Christy, what's nice now is I was talking to
Stewie about this that with Unrivaled being in existence now
it's sort of year round.

Speaker 2 (07:23):
You said you got to see.

Speaker 3 (07:24):
Them from January to March, so it wasn't they were
just season ends. They disappear to go overseas, whatever they do.
You actually get to see them and be part of
their ecosystem for more than just the WBA season, which
I think will again help women's basketball grow.

Speaker 1 (07:39):
Well. I agree. I feel like we didn't have off
season as a media. We had the college season. You
had unlibeled in January, athletes unlimited, and then it was
right back to work with the draft and Final Four.
And so I love that we get basketball three hundred
and sixty five days of the year. But going back
to the training camp absolutely to me as well as

(08:01):
a media member, feels like the first day of school
as you said, everyone's so happy to see you. I
love that the New York Liberty are doing things different
this season, and they're going to have a media appreciation
thing for camp, one of the first it's w teams
to have that, and it's basically where media will get
to go through a basketball clinic. So that should be fun.
But yeah, just establishing that relationship between the media and

(08:24):
the players, I think, and then obviously we get to
see you know, these teams kind of work their way
out to going from an eighteen woman roster down to
twelve or eleven. How competitive does it get for the
roster spots because we know that cuts have to be
made before May sixteen, So how competitive would you say

(08:45):
you've seen camp?

Speaker 3 (08:47):
You know, it seems to get tougher and tougher every
year for them to make those final cuts. And people
say you should expand right away, should add more teams,
get more players opportunities. It takes time to do that.
We already have a new team in Golden State this year.
We have two more next year with the Toronto Tempo
and the Portland question Marks whatever their name is going
to be, and then eventually another sixteenth team at some

(09:07):
point and then who knows. Kathy said there might be
more after that, so that will help maybe ease the
roster crunch a little bit. I know you and I
have talked in the past about would be great maybe
add a couple roster spots or I mean G League's
probably tough to do, but equivalent of a G League
for for the NBA. But yeah, it'd be great to
have a taxi squad or something to give these players
a chance to sort of stick around and who maybe

(09:29):
the thirteen, fourteenth, fifteenth best player in the camp who
are really good basketball players but just don't have an
opportunity because you only have twelve. I mean you look
at the Liberty, I think might be ten those spots
of already returning, so to speak, and you had Marine
Johannes who's coming back obviously from France, who skipped last
year for the Olympics.

Speaker 2 (09:49):
There aren't many opportunities.

Speaker 3 (09:50):
Yet there's a bunch of players in the camp that
are really talented that unfortunately, by May sixteenth, will no
longer be on that roster.

Speaker 1 (09:56):
Yeah, and for the fans listening, I think I saw
it on X earlier this week a fan was like,
I don't understand why they can't be more roster spots.
And I replied to that fan, Well, the current collective
bargaining agreement really doesn't leave wiggle room to add more
than twelve players. There's a hard salary cap. But hopefully
during these negotiations, maybe that cap can be lifted or

(10:19):
give more room where you can provide more roster spots
for teams maybe go to thirteen fourteen players, and so
who knows, maybe maybe. But if you do that, do
you did increase the amount of minutes played? Because we
already have forty four games this year, and if you
add roster spots you can go from forty minutes to

(10:40):
maybe forty four forty eight minutes.

Speaker 3 (10:43):
Well, there's two things there. I think in the past
there was the equity issue. There are some franchises like
the Liberty and Phoenix Mercury that had other backers at
strong backers at the NBA owners or the equivalent that
if you say, could keep a thirteen to fourteenth player,
just have them around, be a practice player.

Speaker 2 (11:02):
If this one gets hurt, throw them in there.

Speaker 3 (11:04):
They can afford to do that, whereas an independent owner
of Chicago Sky or Seattle Storm, and again they might.

Speaker 2 (11:09):
Be able to do it.

Speaker 3 (11:10):
I'm just as an independent owner as opposed to an
NBA back to owner so to speak. Maybe they couldn't
afford to do that as easily, so they want to
keep it equable. Having solar cap allowing only twelve players
maximum those we both know most players. Most teams only
keep eleven players, so it wasn't even twelve. It's usually
eleven for solar cap reasons. But as we've seen the growth,

(11:30):
we've had much better owners coming in that with deeper
pockets that want to invest in the league. Maybe they
could do something more like that. Because it's the cost
of keeping a players probably a couple hundred thousand dollars
from housing and travel and food and all the other
things health insurance. So maybe in the next as you said, CBA,
they might try the way to keep more players involved

(11:52):
in that, which would be great I think for everybody
because it gives you I mean its.

Speaker 2 (11:55):
One gets hurt.

Speaker 3 (11:56):
You can okay, we have like the NBA does, just
post someone up from the taxi squad, the two way
players and fill it right away.

Speaker 2 (12:02):
They already know what's going on.

Speaker 3 (12:03):
They've been in camp, they've been practicing, they know what
the system, so to speak, which I think is better
for everybody.

Speaker 1 (12:08):
Well one hundred percent agree. All right, We're going to
take another quick break and when we come back, we'll
have more from this special conversation. All right, moving on
to the next big headlines from this week. The WNBA

(12:31):
recently announced their preseason schedule, and for the first time
in w history, they'll have four nationally televised preseasons games.
And if you guys were paying attention last year, there
was that one Links Minnesota Link Chicago Sky game where
a fan literally reported on her cell phone live stream
hours of the preseason game and it got over two

(12:53):
million views online. So the WNBA, they heard you guys,
they listened, and they took action by making four nationally
televised games available in the preseason, but also fourteen of
the fifteen preseason games will be streamed on the w
NBA app. What was your reaction to the news of
having these games available on broadcasts?

Speaker 3 (13:15):
How great is it? I mean, you can watch any
game you want now in the preseason and listen. Shout
out to that x user social media member for doing
that to show injur Reese's first preseason game against Minnesota
and people want to see it. There's an attention and
interest in women's basketball that over a million people or
too million people want to actually watch a live stream

(13:37):
amount of phone of a WNBA preseason game and the
quality who is as good as you could get for
where that fan was. So the fact that now you
can watch the games, the college game on ESPN with
Caitlin Clark going back to Iowa. On Sunday you have
the Ion doubleheader with the injur Reese going back to
LSU along with Haley Van Liz, the Dallas Trio going
back or the Dallas duo excuse me, the Las Vegas

(14:01):
duo plus the Rique from Dallas going to Nerdam going
home to their college, Jewel and Jackie along with the week.
How great is that you can see them going back
to college and being able to watch it on national
television and then also in the League Pass you can
watch games. So the w listened to the fans there's
an interest to watch these games in the preseason, and
they listened and they did something about it.

Speaker 1 (14:22):
I think. I mean, obviously you've been in a game
longer than Met Doug, but just making it easier to
be a women's sports fan, I think you start there
with growing a game, and I love this move by
the WNBH just make it easier to access in the
visibility of the game. But I also like the piece
of going back to the colleges. When you talk about
keeping that moment of going from the Final four from
college and bridging that gap of coverage. Having the league

(14:46):
go back to play a preseason game at the alma
maters of some of these superstars in the league. I
think it starts there with you know, carrying fans over
into the w season, but also the Brazilian national team
will play a couple games in the preseason as well,
so globalizing the game. You also have that Canada game
in August as well, and so I love what the

(15:07):
WNBA is doing in terms of, you know, bridging the
gap but also continuing to globalize the game and put
it on the map.

Speaker 3 (15:14):
Yeah, you're one hundred percent right, And shout out to
the Las Vegas Aces for doing this last year with
bringing Asian Wilson back to South Carolina where obvious there's
a tremendous fan base there that loves her and their
their game cocks, and that sort of started this and
I think they say, Wow, people want to latch onto
their players and their college and their pros. Now it
used to be there was a disconnect. It used to
be again as the dinosaur in this room, so to speak,

(15:36):
that once players went to the pros, they sort of
the colleges didn't care about them, the players didn't care
about them, the fans didn't care about them.

Speaker 2 (15:43):
It's say, Okay, they've moved on.

Speaker 3 (15:44):
Their their alumni, and like, I don't I support that
South Carolina, support Yukon, it support Tennessee. I don't really
care what their WNBA team is. It's not really what
I'm my interest in for not the diehard fans, but
the other fans, the casual fans, so to speak.

Speaker 2 (15:58):
But by going back to college.

Speaker 3 (16:00):
To sell out arenas, you're going to have sort of
that goodbye moment for those players to come back and see.
I mean Sabrina and Escu mentioned the other day how
she didn't get a good chance to say goodbye to
her Oregon fans because her senior.

Speaker 2 (16:10):
Year was during COVID.

Speaker 3 (16:11):
They're supposed to host the first two rounds of the
NCAA tournament. Obviously it was probably a one seed, but
COVID hit Nciatorny canceled and she never got a chance
to play that final game in Oregon, but she'll get.

Speaker 2 (16:22):
Now is delivered. You're playing the Tayota Antelopes there.

Speaker 3 (16:25):
To close out the preseason, and you're right. Bring in
Brazil here, the Brazilian national team, Camilla Cardoza's team that
she's played with a little bit. To play against the
Chicago Sky is awesome. Then playing against Iowa Caitlin Clark.
It just brings more fans in. And I wouldn't be
shocked in the next five years if we have an
exhibition game in Europe at some point, or maybe even
regular season game like the NBA does now, to just

(16:47):
bring in more fans.

Speaker 1 (16:48):
Yeah, I love that. And you see already colleges are
doing out of South Carolina had that big game in Paris,
and Ole Miss and UCLA also did the same thing
this past season. So I'm looking forward to the women's
game being more globalized. Obviously, you have WNBA stars who
play overseas in the off season, and so they're probably
familiar in certain countries and markets, but as a whole,

(17:09):
to have this league be like, Okay, we're gonna take
the stands and do some preseason games overseas to bring
it there. I'm looking forward to that as well. Doug,
we talked about the New York Liberty training camp and
what it's been like. Obviously they're gonna be the hunted
this season as the defending champions. Do you have a
two part question? One do you like their off season

(17:32):
moves and adding the Tasha Cloud to replace Courtney Vandersloop,
bringing back to the Marine Johannes Rebecca Gartner as well.
Obviously they lost KT to the Golden State Valkyries and
the expansion Draft. I had to coach Sandy on last
week and she sort of talked about that decision and
bringing a point guard who can defend one through four,

(17:53):
who can facilitate, and who can score, who's a shooter,
Natasha Cloud. So what do you feel about the off
season moves and the New York Liberties chances of running
it back?

Speaker 4 (18:03):
So?

Speaker 3 (18:03):
I thought they actually were really really good booves and
I'm sure Sandy was instrumental in trying to add pieces
that will help them repeat, which we both know is
not the easiest thing to do.

Speaker 2 (18:12):
I mean, the Aces dude, a.

Speaker 3 (18:13):
Couple of years ago, but before that, it was the
La Sparks in the early two thousands that was the
last team to do it. So it's not easy to
win back to back championship flow and win one championship.
I think what they do is they Natasha Cloud, you added,
like many different facets to your team.

Speaker 2 (18:28):
You add a player on the.

Speaker 3 (18:29):
Court who is a facilitator on offense. She can score,
she can pass, she can create for other people, and
she is a tenacious defender. I mean she is one
of the best defenders in WNBA history on the ball
and just adds that piece to them with Benigelini Hamilton
out for the foreseeable future when they injury recovering from that,
so it gives them that another tough defender who can

(18:51):
also create for other people take some of the ball
handling pressure off of Sabrina, which I think will help them.
But also the other part, Christia, you and I have
been around this team.

Speaker 2 (18:59):
For a bit. They have really good leaders.

Speaker 3 (19:01):
I mean, Stewie, Sabrina, JJ, They're all John Caul Jones,
They're all really good leaders, but they're all somewhat quiet.
Whereas Natasha Cloud announces her presence with the first thirty
seconds of her being there. She the other day the
first practice, she was one of the ones that we're
talking to Sabrini Escue and she's making faces behind her
and like just like bringing energy to her in a

(19:23):
loud voice that I don't say that Liberty had bad
leaders that.

Speaker 2 (19:27):
I think they're very good leadership on the.

Speaker 3 (19:28):
Court, but just adds another different type of leadership I
think will help them. And she's hungry too. I mean,
she won the title in Washington in twenty nineteen, but
she's a hungry veteran that wants to try to get
another one. So that's a huge piece. Isy Harrison another
great probably backup big helps them. I think have some
depth of the post, which would be important. Bringing Marine
back is the another obviously great shooter and playmaker. So

(19:50):
I think the pieces that they add in Rebecca Gardner
getting healthy will make this team again hungry and a
little bit different than last year. But I think is
probably still the favorite two win the WNBA title this year.

Speaker 1 (20:02):
No, I absolutely agree, and I like that perspective of
you saying about the quiet leaders versus the tossing who's
more out there? I absolutely agree, and I love the
contrast and the different types of leaders on this New
York Liberty team. I'm also excited to see the jump
for a player like Leoni Feebitch, who was instrumental in
that finals game against Minnesota Game five, and now our

(20:23):
Solarly as well. So I'm excited to see what the
Liberty do this season. All right, before I let you
get out of here, we got to talk women's college basketball. Obviously,
because you're part of the AP and you all make
you know, the top twenty five lists. But there's been
in the off season for college basketball massive chaos with
the transfer portal, Lots of big moves being made. Ole

(20:46):
Miss picked up some players, South Carolina picked up some
top players. LSU. I know we are all looking where
is my Ashplewally going? Which of these off season moves
surprise you the most.

Speaker 3 (20:58):
There's fifteen hundred players in the transfer portal, So that
just think about how mind violed in that number is.
I think there's three hundred and fifty or three or
sixty teams in college basketball, let's say twelve players per
team or so, so that's roughly forty five hundred players.
Maths may not be in my strong suit this morning,
but there's a lot of players. So let's say a
third of the players playing college basketball or sitting in

(21:20):
the transfer portal at some point, which is crazy.

Speaker 2 (21:22):
I mean again, when the dinosaur here.

Speaker 3 (21:24):
When I was a kid, you transferred if you were
like the twelfth person I roster and you weren't getting
playing time, and then you'd want to go somewhere else
to try to get some time get on the court.
Now you have stars like for Wiley transferring and other
great players who go, hey, you know what, there's more
money for me. You made somewhere else, let me go
transfer there.

Speaker 2 (21:43):
So I think the biggest shock I.

Speaker 3 (21:46):
Mean, listen, let's be honest with probably Livia Miles in
the sense that she went to TCU. She could have
gone to the WNBA but decided to stay in college
for another year and not stay at there to day,
but transferred to TCU, who obviously has been transferred you
the last couple of years. So if it's pet of
the oldest news so to speak, with her being one
of the first to announce her decision where she was going,

(22:08):
but that to me is surprising. And listen, we like
spice and drama for Wiley going to LSU against South Carolina.
That's at leastmatical probably right. I mean that creates a
little bit of more excitement, a little something extra for
that game when they go back and play each other
in the in the SEC regular season, maybe the NCC tournament,

(22:28):
and wherever else they might meet. So surprise, Yeah, that's crazy,
Tanai Laton.

Speaker 2 (22:35):
We were talking about South Carolina.

Speaker 3 (22:37):
The leading scorer in the country transfers from Florida State.
We're not talking transfers from a mid major school, transfers
from an ACYC school where she was the leading scorer
in the country to go to South Carolina to play
with their former AAU teammate Raven Johnson. But that to
me is surprising. Just what's different about basketball now, different
about college sports is that really really good players have

(22:58):
decided to go somewhere else for their second, third, fourth
years to try to find whatever reason they want to transfer,
whether it's they like the coach better, whether they want
the bag of money, whatever it may be. But that
is what we live now in the world of college basketball.

Speaker 2 (23:12):
In college sports.

Speaker 1 (23:13):
Yeah, I know, it's certainly a lot of chaos and
spiciness in the off season. As you said, so I
was scrolling through X yesterday, and I saw Jane McManus
posts a tweet about Charlie Baker addressing the APS and
saying that the NCAA is looking at maybe expanding the

(23:34):
men's and women's basketball tournaments to seventy two or seventy
six teams. Good idea or not.

Speaker 3 (23:42):
Okay, there's levels of this, as there are most things.
If you expand the men's tournament, you have to expand
the women's touring for equity. So that's the first piece.
So it won't be like the men go to seventy
six the women's stay at sixty eight. I'm not sure
there's four or eight more teams right now.

Speaker 2 (23:57):
That deserve to get in the NCAA tournament.

Speaker 3 (23:59):
You weren't like, oh man, this team was really like
left out, so to speak. So I think that if
you're just expanding to expand, that's.

Speaker 2 (24:09):
Not a reason to do it.

Speaker 3 (24:10):
But if they get more money out of it, which
they can't right now, they have to renegotiate the contracts
they have with Turner and with the ESPN to get
more money for the teams. So it says, you know,
we have revenue now in women's basketball units, so that
helps you can actually win games the torment make money
if you're a conference your school.

Speaker 2 (24:25):
Which is awesome.

Speaker 3 (24:26):
I think that's the piece that is not really mentioned
but has to be figured out, so to speak. I'll
throw this out there to you. I talked to Charlie
Baker at the Final four. We have a wonderful guy,
great conversation. I think he's trying to do what he
can to fix some of the problems the NCA has
had over the years. We all know about the house
settlement that eventually will come out with money on.

Speaker 2 (24:44):
For revenue sharing.

Speaker 3 (24:46):
I said to him, if you're gonna do something different,
why don't we change it so that the playing games,
the sixteen seeds all get a playing game, because usually
those are like.

Speaker 2 (24:55):
The smaller the smaller.

Speaker 3 (24:56):
Schools, the HBCUs, the IVY League, whoever it may be.

Speaker 2 (25:01):
That way they a have a competitive game.

Speaker 3 (25:03):
Most playing games are within five to ten points, comes
down to the wire. If you're sixteen seed, you're going
to South Carolina, Yukon, Texas, whoever u CLA odds are,
you're probably not gonna win that first game. If you're
one to sixteen and probably won't be competitive just based
on past history. But if you have a playing game,
you get a chance to have a competitive game, and

(25:25):
if you win that game, you get a chance to
your second unit. Because the way it works is every
game you play in the tournament you get a unit
for so your sixteen seed, HBCU or whoever it may be,
you get two units potentially for your conference, which money
matters now versus if you're a it was Columbia versus Washington.
I don't think Washington really needed the extra hundred plus

(25:45):
thousand dollars so to speak to that conference, whereas it
could mean something to these smaller schools, the smaller conference.
So that's something I said to Charlie, Hey, maybe can
figureway do this. I don't know smaller people that I
can figure it out, but to me, that's something that
would be actually pretty cool. A competitive game and chance
of money for your conference in your school probably would
be helpful.

Speaker 2 (26:02):
And make it more exciting for everybody.

Speaker 1 (26:04):
Oh, I act absolutely liked that idea. You need to
be in the boardrooms to make the decisis, Doug, that's
a brilliant idea. All right, So I know that you've
been covering women's basketball for over thirty years when you
look at all of the different final fours in the
championship games. Obviously we got a really good show with

(26:24):
Yukon in South Carolina in this past, but what were
some of your favorite championship games that you were able
to cover?

Speaker 3 (26:31):
So it was this was a neat one just because
the page Becker's and the story beginning to what everyone
knows what she went through from being the best player
in the country as a freshmen to get me injured,
and just what she went through and what better way
to end her college career by winning a national championship.
So that's a great story. We both know the games
are not the most exciting because they're all blowouts in
the frontal four and the championship, So from the standpoint

(26:52):
of like competitiveness, it wasn't there. So if you asked
you what my favorite games all time were, I mean
Arika hitting the shots back to back to in the
national semifinals and championship for basically the same spot. Nothing
we ever top that. I mean, what's again being old
and seeing in the past, like the Sports Illustrated covers,
that was the thing every athlete want again to cover

(27:12):
Sports Illustrated when they were younger and a Riquez shot
to win the national championship. You see her hit it,
and in the small little court in the background, you
see me with my jaw open Galacy going, oh my gosh,
she's doing this again. So I got my chance to
be on Sports Illustrated cover. So there's the selfishness of that,
besides watching one of the greatest shots in the history
of women's basketball and two times in three days. So

(27:34):
that probably to me is the most exciting I've ever
seen as far as like an NCAA title game all.

Speaker 1 (27:40):
That, and you're cemented in history, you know. It's so funny.
At the recent Final Four when Gino was cut down
in it, I saw a picture of me in the
background and I'm like, oh, I'm kinda be fifty years
from now, like, oh, that was be covering this championship game.
So it's so funny. How to think about it from
our perspective of this is a moment in the history,
Like you, we get to do this work, we get

(28:02):
to cover this corporate this is also us, like you know,
recording moments of time and history of women's basketball. Doug,
I want to thank you for joining us this week
on the show before you get out of here. One
final question that I like to end everything with is
what is something that is bringing you joy this week?

Speaker 3 (28:22):
Getting to cover the WABA again just another year or
so to speak, I mean again, we joke it's the
first day of school, so for me it's probably the
twentieth year of school or so.

Speaker 2 (28:32):
Which is cool.

Speaker 1 (28:32):
Super senior, You're a super senior, Super senior.

Speaker 2 (28:35):
Listen.

Speaker 3 (28:35):
I graduated Columbian five years so I was super senior
for it became the cool thing to do with COVID
and other things. But just that, I mean getting a
chance to cover a sport that is great and seeing
it grow and blossom and all the great stories that
you and I get to tell of players over the
next five months.

Speaker 2 (28:51):
That's spring me enjoy this week?

Speaker 3 (28:52):
If seeing a chance to see something new and there's
always something different. What's great we love about sports is
you don't know how it's going to end, and something
can happen that you've never seen before, and that's what
makes it special.

Speaker 2 (29:04):
So that's the joy for me. How about yourself? What
brings you enjoy this week?

Speaker 1 (29:09):
You love it? I've never had anyone turn the tables
on me on my own show. But one thing that
has brought me joy this week, I want to say
the same, just getting excited about the season, and really,
I guess I'm like a mid senior now in this game.
I've been covering the w for over seven years now,
so it's been fun to just watch all the newbies

(29:30):
come in on the media side, but also just being
satisfied with the work that I'm doing, like oh my God,
like people appreciate it, and just sitting and knowing that,
you know, the work that we do matter. So I
think that that's something that has brought me joy this
week as well. So kind of the same same as you,
just feeling joy in the work that we do.

Speaker 3 (29:51):
Well, keep doing what you do because you're one of
the rising great young stars in this game.

Speaker 1 (29:55):
Thank you. One day, I hope to make the Hall
of Fame like Keith Doug. But I want to thank
you again for coming on the show this week. We're
certainly going to paid paying section to all of the
work that you're doing across the Associated press this WNBA
season and beyond. Thanks again for slopping by. Thanks for
having me Christina. All right, coming up next, we're going
to be joined by Shattering the Glass The Remarkable History

(30:18):
of Women's Basketball authors Pamela Grundy and Susan shackle Forward.
So stay with us. I am super excited about this conversation.
Pamela Grundy and Susan Shackleford are the authors of Shattering

(30:40):
the Glass, The Remarkable History of Women's Basketball. It's a
fascinating look at this sport I love so much. They
go deep into the history of formative players, the setbacks
and triumphs. Shattering Glass was the first was first released
in two thousand and five, but there's an updated version
available that brings us to the twenty twenty four National

(31:03):
Championship and the WNBA Finals, And those are two things,
two moments in events that I was present for. So
I'm super excited about this conversation. But if you've been
curious about the evolution of women's hoops, this is the
book for you. So without further ado, let me welcome
in this week's guest. Please welcome in, Pamela Grundy and
Susan Shackleford. Welcome to in case you missed it, Thanks

(31:24):
so much. We're happy to be here. To be Yeah,
oh my god, we were talking a little bit before
we started recording about the book, and I thoroughly enjoyed
reading it. I think that the history of women's sports,
especially women's basketball, is something that gets lost even in
today's present time. Is just not enough information out there.

(31:45):
So I want to start this conversation with the question
that I ask all of the guests that come through
to the show. But it's your first basketball memory.

Speaker 4 (31:54):
I think like four or five years old, and I
begged and begged and begged my father to please take
me to basketball practice.

Speaker 1 (32:03):
He was a.

Speaker 4 (32:03):
Coach, and the high school was right up at the
end of our block, and I used to watch them
file into the gym. We were allowed to go up
to the end of the block. So finally he gave in.
He let me come up there, and I got to
retrieve free throws for his boys' basketball team.

Speaker 1 (32:23):
Wow, I mean, that's that's huge. That's huge, but a
great memory. What about you, Kamla.

Speaker 5 (32:29):
It's funny how schools play into this and dads. My
dad wasn't a coach, but he had been a high
school basketball star and when he was a sophomore, they'd
won the state championship of small schools of Texas. So
I was really proud of that. Across the street for
me in Manhattan, across York Avenue was PS one fifty eight,

(32:51):
and they had a bunch of I didn't go there,
but they had a bunch of summer and after school programs,
so I would go and we would We didn't, but
we did a lot of around the world and horse
and that kind of thing. And I do remember that
I was really good at the granny shot. I was
a little girl, you know, I didn't care us have
been eight, and so I could shoot that shot, and

(33:14):
as I recall, I think it's accurate. I was better
than a lot of the boys at it, even the
bigger boys, and so that gave me a lot of pleasure.

Speaker 1 (33:23):
I absolutely love that, just the stories about how your
dad brought you to basketball, and just even just the competitiveness,
because I feel like those are stories that we don't
often hear. It reminds me of even my first basketball memory
of playing in middle school and just advocating to be
on a team because that while not back then I'm
not that old, but that they were encouraging all the

(33:44):
girls in middle school to be cheerleaders, and I'm like, no,
I want to hoop. I want to learn how to
play basketball. So I absolutely love that. So let's dive
into this book. How did the collaboration come about with
you two creating this book.

Speaker 5 (33:58):
Well, that's actually a really fun story. I teach history
at college level, and I was teaching history sports and
it was really frustrating to me because there was not
a good book about women's sports that you could assigned
to undergraduates. There were some high level things that were
really above their heads, there were some other things, but

(34:19):
there wasn't anything really good. And so I thought the
best way to do that would be the History of
women's basketball because it covers so much time. Women have
been playing it for more than one hundred years, all
different kinds of women have played it, so you can
really get at a lot of women's sports with basketball.
But I didn't want to write it because I knew
the history, but I know a lot of the present stuff.

(34:41):
So I spent quite some time trying to get other
people to write it. You know, I'd be like, you
should write this would be a great book, etc. Etc.
And then Susan moved across the street from me. We
live across the street from each other. Tipa Avenue in Charlotte,
and I knew Susan, and I knew that she'd been
a sports writer and she loved basketball, so she do
all this new stuff. So one day it occurred to me, Hey,

(35:04):
Susan and I can write that book together. So we
met in the middle of the street and I said, Hey, Susan,
let's write the history of women's basketball.

Speaker 1 (35:11):
I absolutely love that story of how the stars aligned
for he Bo.

Speaker 5 (35:16):
It was meant to be.

Speaker 4 (35:17):
It really was, Christina. I was so excited about it.
I told Pam that, and I said, because I'm so excited,
I've learned I have to sleep on things when I'm
like too excited. So I did, and very early the
next morning I said absolutely, yes, yeah, and till we
did it.

Speaker 1 (35:35):
Yeah. So, also in two thousand and five, why did
you think it was an ideal time? Because the world
now is completely different than almost twenty years ago. Why
was it ideal time to write the first version of
Shattering the Glass?

Speaker 4 (35:50):
We had been observing the momentum that had started with
the ninety six Olympic team, and then the formation of
two pro leagues coming out of that, and then the
WNBA becoming the Survivor League and the excitement around it.
I mean, they really were packing arenas and there were
corporate people coming to the table. It was an exciting

(36:13):
time and we really thought we were catching the wave,
and I think we did, but then the wave sort
of are about two thousand and five kind of leveled out.

Speaker 5 (36:23):
This is a thing often in history you think, well,
you know, things have really improved and they're just going
to keep getting better. And so I think that was
the assumption from a lot of people that you know,
a barrier had been broken and then it was really
going to be upward momentum. But as anyone who studies
women's history in particular knows, that's not how it works.

(36:44):
You can't take anything for granted. And I think that's
a great example.

Speaker 1 (36:48):
What you say now is the biggest difference from twenty
years ago. Just the conversation around women's athletes and women's
sports versus.

Speaker 5 (36:57):
Now one a key thing, and I think, you know,
to get to the cultural ideas, basically, women's basketball has
come to terms with sexuality for so long, you know,
this was just a taboo subject. Everyone tried to avoid it.
They tried to, you know, just squelch any kind of
conversation because there was a big stigma and female athletes

(37:22):
because they were doing something that was considered to be
you know more for men, came under all sorts of
pressure and all sorts of criticism, and so it really
I think made people very tense and tight and they
couldn't be themselves. And once that happened, once you know,
the league and people and in some ways society itself

(37:45):
came more to terms with that, I think things really changed.
I mean in terms of how people saw the athletes,
in terms of how the athletes presented themselves, it was
just much more authentic.

Speaker 1 (37:57):
I think about the story of Suix too, and I
watched a document and called Unfinished Business, and she talked
about all the hits that she took once she came out.
I think about SUPERB and how she talked about in
her early years of her career where she felt like
she couldn't be herself and she had to like kind
of be a shell of herself because, as you said,
the conversation around sexuality and different things like that, it

(38:20):
wasn't common and it wasn't accepted. And you look at
the league now and you see how athletes have just
embraced who they are, and the authenticity is what selles
ultimately for the league today.

Speaker 5 (38:35):
And I think it's again there's a great example of
being connected to history. We interviewed Simona Augustus, who was
really out front in terms of you know, being public
and open and her decision, you know, to make her
sexuality public. I mean, she hadn't hidden it privately, but
public was when in Minnesota they tried to pass a

(38:56):
law against gay marriage, you know, and so she was
sort of like, this is a moment. It's time for
me to stand up for myself and basically for all
the gay fans that support it, that supported the team,
and so you know, it's taking advantage of history, which
I think these women have done really well.

Speaker 4 (39:14):
I think that's true, and I would just add another
important aspect. It's very empowering and I think it has
empowered the women in general being authentic to take on
even more. I mean, and I feel a real gratitude

(39:37):
to them for the leadership that they displayed around so
many issues. And I mean I think about Black Lives Matter,
and I mean, what a moment over a period of time,
and they coalesced and they even took it as you know,
Christina to the extent of you know, running supporting Raphael

(40:00):
Warnock for Senate and helping us nationally politically get someone
in office who really, you know, understands America for the
broad nature of people and aspirations that it represents. So
I just that empowerment that comes from authenticity is just incredible.

Speaker 1 (40:25):
I couldn't agree more. And especially like living through some
of this stuff. Obviously in twenty sixteen, you talk about
Black Lives Matter and what the Minnesota Links were able
to do, even the league's relationship or attitude towards the
players doing that. I remember the players were initially fined
for you know, standing up and doing what they did

(40:47):
in terms of weirdness shirts and bringing awareness versus twenty
twenty when they're at the forefront of the George Floyd
protests and using that platform in the midst of a
global pandemic, and how that language attitude changed around the
league where they were more supportive of the players leading
those movements and initiatives. So it's for me, it's crazy

(41:08):
to think about because we're living through these moments of history.
I love that you are able to capture those moments
within the book, and so I want you to take
a moment to think of maybe two or three moments
of women's basketball history and just think about or explain
or you know, what are two or three moments that

(41:28):
you think led us to where we are today. You
brought up the twenty sixteen Minnesota links and even the
twenty twenty George Floyd raising awareness and flipping the Senate
in Georgia as well. What do you think are some
other key and pivotal moments that led us to where
we are today. Well, I'm going to step back a
little bit in time, because to me, the first major

(41:50):
moment after back, you know, women started playing basketball in
colleges was the nineteen twenties. And that's a period when
high schools become a common thing across the country. I
mean most communities, most people kids didn't go to high school.
And there's this movement where in every town, every city,

(42:10):
you know, there are now high schools, and you get
high schools, and these high schools get basketball teams. And
that's the point when basketball really reached across the country
and reached young women. I mean all in all communities, rural, urban, black, white,
you know, Native American you know, Latina, all of these places,

(42:34):
all of these young women, you know, wealthy not wealthy,
were able to play basketball. And that's what really started
put weaving basketball into US culture and into women's experiences. Susan,
is there any moment that you think was like a
key moment or a pivotal change.

Speaker 4 (42:51):
Well, I agree with Pam about the high schools and
their importance, their emergence in the twenties. From that point on,
things were kind of up and down with women's basketball.
It thrived in some communities and it was challenged or
non existent in others. And I think that came on
into the sixties and early seventies, and I was living

(43:13):
that in the sixties and early seventies. And then Title nine,
so I think I was just about to say that
to me was probably the next big pivotal point. And
I was in school at Chapel Hill at the time.
I was in one of my classes. It happened to
be women's basketball coach coaching the class, and she walked

(43:37):
by my desk one day and she dropped this big
stack of papers and said, look this over.

Speaker 1 (43:44):
I said, what is it?

Speaker 4 (43:45):
She said, just look it over. I said, okay, So
I covered the women's basketball team at the time. I
go back to the school newspaper, I look it over
and it is the proposed guidelines for Title nine in
their implementation. I was blown away. I just I started
I called her, I started calling everybody about this monumental

(44:09):
law that was being put in motion. And people around
North Carolina were largely ignorant of it. There was just
a small group that knew of it. And then, of
course all of us know that it didn't just apply
to education, where women were being barred from classrooms, barred

(44:30):
from programs, barred from academic tracks and jobs. It bled
over into athletics, and that's where we saw the big bomp.

Speaker 1 (44:42):
Yeah. And I would say another big moment if we
think about you know, today's times, is obviously when Sedona
Prince she blasted or took that video of the inequities
of you know, the NCAA tournament, the women's workout equipment
versus the men's. I think that that was like the
turning points. Now we have, you know, the women are

(45:02):
able to use the March Madness branding, we have name
immage likeness, and women athletes are able to profit and
in so many cases getting more in I Owe money
than some of the male athletes as well. I think
that the turningtide in today's times is obviously off the
backs of the nineteen twenties, off the backs of Title nine,
but also now we have inted a new era of

(45:24):
name image likeness, where you know, these athletes are outspoken
and they want a piece of the pie and equal
share of the pie. And you know, you see it
in the Caitlyn Clark effects and some of these athletes
becoming the household names. I'm curious while you were doing
the research for the for this book, what was the

(45:45):
most surprising thing that came up in the research.

Speaker 4 (45:48):
Well, for me, it was what Pam touched on a
little bit earlier, and that was the extent to which
the game was embraced across the country when the high
school era came about in the twenties and there was
broad public high schools. I mean, every kind of woman

(46:09):
and girl was interested in this game when they got
exposed to it.

Speaker 5 (46:13):
I was just.

Speaker 4 (46:16):
Very excited by learning that, and for.

Speaker 5 (46:18):
Me, it's in some ways related. I actually started long
before on this subject when I curated an exhibit here
in Charlotte about basketball in the region North Carolina, basketball
is just sort of important. So one of the things
I found when I was talking to people and telling

(46:38):
them about the exhibit, a lot of them would say, oh,
you know, my grandmother played basketball. They wouldn't say my
mother played basketball because a lot of their mothers hadn't
played basketball. Because again with this ups and downs, a
lot of these women mostly meant to their grandmothers went

(46:58):
to high school in the twenties, the thirties when women's
basketball was a big deal, but then there's a big
drop after World War Two. So the mothers who went
to high school in the fifties, sixties, they didn't have
basketball teams and they didn't play basketball. And again that's
not what you think. Again you think about this, you know,

(47:19):
ascending path, you'd have thought, well, moms might have played basketball,
but grandmoms probably didn't. But in fact it's the opposite.
And that's the.

Speaker 1 (47:27):
Kind of surprise that forces you to look more deeply
and understand history better. I think that's super interesting. And
you talked about throughout this conversation some of the obstacles
that athletes had faced. Are there any stories that epitomizes
the perseverance of how far, you know, we've come in

(47:49):
terms of women's basketball.

Speaker 4 (47:51):
Pam and I have talked about how women really exhibit
this with the game, and so it was a hard
thing to think about. Okay, who would we really single out?
And we talked about Nara White, who is not a
common name today, but she was the goat of her era,

(48:14):
which was the fifties and sixties. At one of these times,
as Pam mentioned, there was not widespread women's basketball. But
Nara grew up on a farm in Tennessee. She was
strong as could be. You know, she was in charge
of her brothers. She played high school ball and she
played for Nashville Business College that was part of AAU

(48:39):
basketball and that's what really thrived at the time. And
she was an All American AAU fifteen years. And when
Sue Gunner, who later would become the coach at LSU,
talked about the greatest players that she had ever seen
during her time playing and as a coach. This was

(49:00):
in the seventies, sixties or seventies, she made this comment
that Nara was the best player she had ever seen.
And that is stunning to me.

Speaker 1 (49:11):
As you was inducted into the Hall of fame in
ninety two. Yeah, yeah, she was, and part of the
challenge for Nira again she faced this criticism. She was tall,
she was strong. You know, she didn't go out of
her way to look cute and pretty and you know
we're makeup and such, and she was heavily criticized for

(49:32):
you know, not being womanly, not being a real woman.
You know that some athletes, you know, get criticized for today,
and so she really had to put all that aside
and play and find a place to play when there
weren't that many. So she was really.

Speaker 5 (49:49):
An example I think of that. There's so many more.
I mean, you think Britney Griner, you know all she's
you know, from college in college on. I mean, she's
just got I mean, you just could pick so many people.
But we like to highlight near it because most people
don't know who she is, and we.

Speaker 3 (50:06):
Really all shod.

Speaker 1 (50:08):
We're going to take another quick pause and when we
get back, we'll hear more from Susan and Pamela. We know,
sports and politics they intersect, and with everything that's happening

(50:29):
and it's current political climate, how do you see it
impacting women athletes today?

Speaker 5 (50:35):
Well, I mean the first thing I want to say
is that it makes women athletes that much more important
because these are prominent examples of women who are strong,
who are confident, who are competitive, and who are succeeding.
As we all know, Unfortunately, with the current administration, a

(50:57):
lot of women are getting pulled out of top positions,
you know, a lot of when they're not bro you know,
having strong competitive women, you know, in their administration and
in other places. So it's really important that women's sports
continue to provide that model.

Speaker 4 (51:17):
I think Pan's right about the need of the women
coming out of this sport and in this sport to
continue to be leaders. Our country needs them more than
ever right now. I mean in all forms of life,
but particularly nationally politically, I think we've got to watch

(51:39):
Title nine very closely. I'm very concerned that the equity
of providing women's sports at college levels is going to
get sliced and diced away or just jerked. I think
that has got to be watched very closely. That to me,

(52:00):
and then you know, just in general, you know, what
what is the climate to be able to thrive and
to be the full person that you are. We have
to stand out for what's right.

Speaker 5 (52:15):
And we need to circle ourselves around these athletes, you know,
I mean really you know, up to support for that
because it's so important. I do want to make it
again a point about Title nine and you saw this
with Sedona Prince. Just because there's a federal law that
says men and women are supposed to have equal opportunities,
that doesn't mean it's going to happen. And there's still

(52:37):
a long way to go. And the other thing is
that laws don't have any meaning unless they're enforced. And
we have seen over history, when you've had an administration
that is sympathetic to women's sports, they focus on enforcement,
colleges know they're going to be watched, and things improve.
When you've had administrations that have not seen this as

(53:00):
a priority, there's a lot of backsliding. And so it
really is essential for people on the ground to notice,
to speak out, and to support and to support female athletes.

Speaker 4 (53:13):
That ebb and flow around. The support for Title non
is really clear in our story. So anyone who wants
to see that it does matter who's running things in
Washington vis are the Title nine. They can see that
as you come through in our history.

Speaker 1 (53:33):
Yeah, I was just going to say that we know
that these women athletes have always been at the forefront,
and I know that they will continue to do the work.
Before I let you get out of here, I want
to talk about, you know, the fun stuff. Pamil. I
see you have your Final four Tampa hat on. So
what did you think about the Final four? What was

(53:54):
exciting about being in Tampa.

Speaker 5 (53:56):
The thing was just seeing all the support, all the people,
all excitement. I mean, these people cheering like crazy, you
know that last the final game. I mean we're near Columbia,
so we've gone down to We've gone down to South
Carolina games, and the atmosphere is incredible. I mean I've
never heard fans yell so loud until I got that

(54:18):
camp and heard the Huskies fans yell, and I mean
it was definitely you know, and so it's the players
and it's the people who just love the sports so much.
That was the most exciting thing to me. And seeing
great players play. You wish the games had been a
little closer, but it was also great just to see

(54:39):
the amazing things that some of these women can do.

Speaker 1 (54:41):
And Susan, the w NBA season is approaching us. Can
you please tell me what's the most exciting thing that
you're looking forward to, heugh this season.

Speaker 4 (54:50):
Well, I love the influx of talent that's coming from
the college game, which we just saw at the Draft.
I just thought that was just terrific. And the continuing
rise of support for the draft and for these young players.
And uh, Pamela and I started seeing in the last

(55:11):
few years this continuation of following the personalities and following
the storylines from college into the pros. That wasn't happening, uh,
prior to a few years ago. Well, now it's happening
like crazy. And I think that is indicative of the

(55:32):
rising fan base. Uh, it's indicative of the better media
coverage and visibility to the game. And I think with fans,
when these storylines get really pumped up and they want
to see what their favorite player team is doing, then
it just feeds on itself. Then they're buying tickets, they're

(55:53):
buying merch and and you know, everything rises. So I'm
looking forward to just seeing, Okay, now where we are.

Speaker 1 (56:00):
Where are we now? Absolutely I want to get both
of yours super super early predictions for who's gonna raise
the Trophy in October and the w N b A
which wait, brutal? What a brutal question.

Speaker 5 (56:21):
I like Minnesota, but I've got a soft spart at
my heart from Minnesota for all they've done and for
all this so but they've also got a great team,
So I'll go with that Minnesota, right.

Speaker 4 (56:35):
You know, I think New York is going to be
pushing hard to repeat I and they've They've just got
a lot of talent, a lot of momentum. But the
thing that that makes me kind of pull back is
these other teams are cobbling together some really uh forceful nucleuses.

(56:56):
So I mean, I guess I would defer to New York,
but I'm not going to be surprised if, you know,
we see one of these other teams, you know, come
busting out.

Speaker 1 (57:07):
Absolutely, I would have to agree my way too. Early
prediction is maybe another repeat of Lastar's finals, Minnesota, New York.
So we'll come back in October and see if our
early predictions are true. All right, I just want to
thank both of you so much for being here today.
Thank you Pamela, thank you Susan, and for all of
you listening. Please please please make sure you pick up
your copy of Shattering the Glass the remarkable history of

(57:31):
women's basketball. It's available from the University of North Carolina Press,
so make sure you get your copy. Thank you so
much for being here today. Thank you enjoyed it. I
just want to thank Doug, Pamela, and Susan for coming
on the show this week. Such great conversations, and that's

(57:52):
going to do it for this week's episode. We'll talk
to you on Wednesday, but before we get out of here,
make sure you subscribe, rate, review all those things to
this podcast, and I'll talk to you guys Wednesday. Peace
in case you missed it with Christina Williams is an
iHeart women's sports production in partnership with Deep Blue Sports

(58:15):
and Entertainment. You can find us on the iHeartRadio app,
Apple podcast, or wherever you get your podcasts.