Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
In Case You missed It with Christina Williams is an
iHeart Women's Sports production in partnership with Deep Blue Sports
and Entertainment. Welcome to another episode of In Case you
missed It with Christina Williams. Here on iHeart Women's Sports
and in case you missed the Gang, we finally have
our WNBA Finals matchup. It looks like it's going to
(00:25):
be the Battle of the Desert. The Las Vegas Aces
clinched their spot to the WNBA Finals and an overtime
thriller win against the Indiana Fever and they await the
Phoenix Mercury. Now. Since it's a best of seven series,
the Aces will have the home court advantage being that
they are the higher seed. We're also going to dive
into the Minnesota Links exit interview, specifically in the FISA
(00:48):
Colliers bold statement where she called out League Commissioner Kathy Engelbert. Plus,
we're going to get into the New York Liberty's exit
interviews as well and go over some of the things
that general manager Jonathan Colb had said after the dismissal
of Sandy Brundello. And here to break all that down
with me is friends to the show My Homegirl, MVC
(01:13):
Sports hosts and analyst Natalie s. Squire. Natalie, welcome back
to the show.
Speaker 2 (01:18):
Christina. Thank you for having me. And that's only because
you're my girl. I'm doing this because we got to
book travel. Okay, yes, Oh my goodness.
Speaker 1 (01:27):
Across country travel is always a little crazy, considering that
we didn't even know where we were going until you know,
the clock HIGs zero yesterday and it was a pretty
close game. But before we get into the games, let's
talk about some of the headlines. The Minnesota Links held
their exit interviews this week, and Nafisa Collier opened up
(01:48):
the interviews with a very bold statement blasting WNBA commissioner
Kathy Engelbert. Now it was very loaded, and I want
the listeners to, you know, get a little bit of
what she had to say, So listen up.
Speaker 3 (02:03):
So, first of all, I'd like to congratulate the Mercury
for advancing to the finals. And I want to be clear,
this conversation is not about winning or losing. It's about
something much bigger. The real threat to our league isn't money.
It isn't ratings or even miss calls or even physical play.
It's the lack of accountability from the league office. Since
I've been in the league, you've heard the constant concerns
(02:25):
about officiating, and it has now reached levels of inconsistency
that plague our sport and undermine the integrity in which
it operates. Whether the league cares about the health of
the players is one thing, but to also not care
about the product we put on the floor is truly
self sabotage.
Speaker 1 (02:41):
Year off to year.
Speaker 3 (02:42):
The only thing that remains consistent is the lack of
accountability from our leaders.
Speaker 1 (02:47):
Sorry, I had to walk here in my boot out
of breath.
Speaker 3 (02:51):
The league has a buzzword that they've rolled out as
talking points for the CBA as to why they can't
pay the players what we're worth. That word is sustainability.
That's truly unsustainable. Is keeping a good product on the
floor while allowing officials to lose control of games. Fancy
it every night Coaches both winning and losing pointed out
every night in pregame and postgame media. Yet leadership just
(03:13):
issues finds and looks the other way. They ignore the
issues that everyone inside the game is begging to be fixed.
That is negligence.
Speaker 1 (03:22):
At unarrival.
Speaker 3 (03:22):
This past February, I sat across from Kathy and asked
how she planned to address the officiating issues in our league.
Her response was, will only the losers complain about the refs?
I also asked how she planned to fix the fact
that players like Caitlin Angel and Page, who are clearly
driving massive revenue for the league, are making.
Speaker 1 (03:40):
So little for their first four years.
Speaker 3 (03:42):
Her response was, Caitlyn should be grateful she makes sixty
million off the court, because without the platform that the
WNBA gives her, she wouldn't make anything. And in that
same conversation, she told me players should be on their
knees thanking their lucky stars for the media rights steal
that I got them. That's mentality driving our league from
the top. We go to battle every day to protect
(04:04):
a shield that doesn't value us. The league believes it
succeeds despite its players, not because of them. I have
the privilege of watching my husband run a league where
he has to balance one hundred different things at once.
I won't pretend the job is easy, but even with
all of that on his plate, he always takes the
time to reach out to players when he sees an injury,
whether it's unrivaled or even during the WNBA season.
Speaker 1 (04:26):
That is what leadership looks like.
Speaker 3 (04:28):
It's the human element, it's basic integrity, and it's the
bare minimum any leader should embody. This year alone, I've
gotten calls, texts, and well wishes from so many players
across the league. Those moments remind me that sometimes there
are things bigger than the results than this game we play.
But do you know who? I haven't heard from Kathy,
not one call, not one text. Instead, the only outreach
(04:51):
has come from her number two telling my agent that
she doesn't believe physical play is contributing to injuries. That
is infuriating, and it's the perfect exams sample of the
tone deaf, dismissive approach that our leaders always seem to take.
I've finally grown tired for too long. I have tried
to have these conversations in private, but it's clear there
is no intention of accepting there's a problem. The league
(05:14):
has made it clear. It isn't about innovation, it isn't
about collaboration. It's about control and power. I've earned this platform,
and I paid the price to get here, and now
I have a responsibility to speak on behalf of the
fans and everyone in this league that deserves better. Our
leadership's answer to being held accountable is to suppress everyone's
voices by handing out fines. I'm not concerned about a fine.
(05:38):
I'm concerned about the future of our sport. At some point,
everyone deserves to hear the truth from someone who I
hope has earned the benefit of the doubt to fight
for what is right and fair for our athletes and
our fans. We have the best players in the world,
we have the best fans in the world, but right
now we have the worst leadership in the world. If
I didn't know exactly what the job entailed, maybe I
wouldn't feel this way. But unfortunately for them, I do
(06:01):
we save a league that has shown they think championship
coaches and Hall of Fame players are dispensable. And that's fine,
it's professional sports. But I will not stand quietly by
and allow different standards to be applied at the league level.
Speaker 1 (06:14):
All right, Natalie lots of unpack here from this statement.
I think that this statement was twofold. She criticized the
league's leadership, particularly how Kathy Ingelbert has been able to
handle her relationships to players, and then she also said
the league lacked accountability and so that. But one of
(06:34):
the things that stood out to me as well was
the alleged to meeting that happened at Rivaled between the
FISA and Kathy Engelbert, where the FSA said that she
had asked Kathy about some of the concerns, including the
officiating and the momentum in women's sports led by Caitlin Fark,
angel Rees and Paige Becker's and here's what she said.
(06:57):
Kathy said, And you guys just heard the statement, but
the comment about players should be on anyse thinking they're
lucky stars for the media rice deal that I got them.
And then also her talking about allegedly Caitlyn Clark saying that,
you know, the WNBA is the reason why Caitlyn has
her endorsements paraphrasing obviously, But Natalie, what resonated with you
(07:21):
the most from this statement from the visa Collier, Oh,
my gosh, the most.
Speaker 2 (07:28):
I don't know what resonated with me the most, because
there was so much. I was in shock, like listening
to everything that she alleged, you know that was said
to her, and shock, but not surprised, you know, because
we've heard similar things, not necessarily the nature of the comments,
(07:51):
but just sort of this sort of tone that it
sometimes seems, at least based on what's been described by
neck Oay and others, of remarks that Kathy makes to
them that almost have like a condescending tone in nature.
And so that's I'm saying that they've never described as that,
(08:11):
but I'm saying, like the remark that we've heard she said,
she apparently told Neka that she didn't know business here.
You know, if the links or a player, anyone you know,
complains or talks about or raises issues and concerns around officiating,
you know, Nethsa said that the commissioner said, well, only
the losers complain about the officiating, you know, and so
(08:35):
you know, just things like that regarding you know, if
she did say that the players should be on their
knees thanking her for the right steal that she negotiated
with the media deal, that's just to me wild that,
you know, a leader would say that to basically the
players that generate and bring in your revenue. And then
(08:58):
the notion or idea that the league is doing something
for Kaitlyn Clark, honestly, just you know, seems a little
you know, crazy. You know, that's probably not the right word,
but it seems misguided, right. The question I believe that
in Iphisia says she asked was like, how do you
feel about the players like Caitlin, Page, Angel, these young
(09:22):
players who drive so much revenue being on these low
salaries for such a long time, these low ricky deals.
And that was her response that, you know, Caitlyn should
be grateful because she makes sixteen million off the court
and that's due to the platform that the WNBA provides
to her. And that is to me, just a misguided
(09:43):
way to look at what these players do. Angel Reese
alone has more followers than the WNBA's accounts, like she like,
she has a bigger social.
Speaker 1 (09:53):
Medium following Caitlin, Angel, Paige.
Speaker 2 (09:55):
All these players, they've brought their deals that they already
had with them from college.
Speaker 1 (10:00):
You know. And so to me, you know, when the
thesis says like it seems like.
Speaker 2 (10:06):
They don't realize the importance of basically the players to
this league, I would agree with that. Now, again, that's
taking what the FISA said at face value. I know
the commissioner had a statement, so I'll stop there.
Speaker 1 (10:19):
But like all of those.
Speaker 2 (10:20):
Things just really jumped out to me that this league
thinks they are bigger or they matter more than the players,
and I just don't agree with that sentiment.
Speaker 1 (10:29):
Yeah, and you mentioned that the WNBA released a statement
from Commissioner Kathy Engelberg following in the FISA Collier's comments,
and I want to read that here. Kathy Ingelberg said, quote,
I have the utmost respect for an A Visa Collier
and for all of the players in the WNBA. Together,
we have all worked time tires, looselessly sorry to transform
(10:52):
this league. My focus remains on ensuring a bright future
for the players and the WNBA, including collaborating on how
we can contine you to elevate the game. I am
disheartened by how the VISA characterized our conversations and league leadership.
But even when our perspectives defer, my commitment to the
players and to this work will not waiver and quote.
(11:15):
So it's a lot to unpack. And just you know,
these short words from commission to Kathy Engelberg, I think
we can both agree that reading this, on the surface,
there's no real denial, right. She said that she's disheartened
by how the VISA characterized the conversations and the league's leadership.
(11:37):
And so I think that that says a lot without
saying a lot, right, And it's something that I also
wanted to question two. When the FISA brought up this
February meeting that happened at Unrivaled in Miami. I want
to know the context of the meeting because we know
that last November the players in the union opted out
(11:59):
of the current CBA, and since then the league has had,
you know, several meetings. Now here's my questions, and I'm
just like asking the questions because that's just, you know,
what I want to do. But was that February meeting
around the time where Unrivaled had allegedly pitched or asked
(12:21):
the league to invest into the league, because there were
multiple reports when Unliveled announced their three hundred million plus
valuation a couple months ago that the league refused to
invest in our my world. And so I just I
think that context matters. And I'm not saying that you
(12:43):
know that justifies the alleged comments by Commissioner kath Egelberg, right,
But I think that context matters. We only hear a snippet.
We don't know the tone or the context of the conversation,
not not justifying anything that was allegedly Second, I think
that that if any leader said that to you, anyone,
I think that that would be very disappointing, and you know,
(13:04):
there would be consequences. But I just I just questioned
the context of the conversation, because there's three sides to
every story, right and as of now, like, yeah, you
can believe Nafisa at face value given her character, but
also to me, I think it's just hearsay until we
(13:26):
have some further proof that these things were said. But
then you also brought up a good point about this
not being the first time we're hearing comments like this
that the Commissioner has allegedly made. Nika Goo mackay had
also said during the CBA negotiations that the commissioner allegedly
(13:46):
criticized her business acumen, and then we saw yesterday the
amount of players who supported a FISA was in solidarity
with her. Lena Deladon posted on her Instagram story that
you know, I don't even think that the commissioner knows
that I retire. She has yet to reach out to me,
and so I think a lot of the players are
(14:06):
just criticizing commissioner. Kathy Ingelbert's the human element, right, because
it's more than just business. And to her credit, right,
I think that since Kathy Ingelbert has come into the league,
she has absolutely turned it around from a business perspective.
But as a leader, you can't only be one track
mind that you can only be business minded. There's so
much more that goes into the role of being a commissioner.
(14:28):
And obviously it's important to the players that the commissioner
of the w has that interpersonal relationship with them in
terms of her leadership, and so I think that's super important.
But in terms of the officiating, Kathy Ingelbert did come
on this show two weeks ago and I did ask
her about the officiating and the regular season and how
(14:48):
the league plan to deal with that heading into the postseason.
And I'm going to read a little bit of what
she had to say for that, and she said, I
think every year everybody can about officiating, by the way,
in every sport. So but that means people care. They
care so much that we hear concerns from the ecosystem
(15:11):
in our league, whether it's fans, players, coaches, we take
it seriously. We understand there's frustration. Our game is constantly evolving.
We just talked about the speed, talent, and physicality, and
we recognize that. And she goes on to say, we
know as leagues change, the rules changed, and players get bigger, stronger, faster,
(15:32):
officiating needs to change. And then I'm just going to
end that quote right there. But she talked about how
the league has a thorough process when it comes to
evaluating these refs and training them and educating them on
the rules. But also I went further, and you know,
went out and started to ask, you know, some people
around the league the process about the officiating. And here's
what I learned, Natalie. I learned that the general managers,
(15:54):
the coaches, and the referees union, they all meet up
every November to go over points of emphasis and the
rules for the season. And this is a meeting where
they can discuss, Natalie, what they would like to change.
I guess what works and the points of emphasis. My
league source told me that they are not sure if
the commissioner actually attends that meeting, but she does attend
(16:19):
the annual Competition Committee meetings, so she is aware of
what happens in those point of emphasis meetings, but I
think some I think, yes, the commissioners should absolutely be
involved when it comes to the officiating and hearing the
concerns with the players. But we also have to know
that the job of the commissioners to work on behalf
of the Board of Governors on behalf of the owners, right,
(16:43):
And the Board of Governors also attends these point of
emphasis meeting they actually sign off according to Doug Weinberger
the ap he vert article about this, but they actually
sign off on these rules and points of emphasis every season.
So I think that there's a lot of chain in command,
and Kathy's going to get some heat. I feel like
one the WNBA officials leads and I'll read their names here.
(17:10):
It's a man by the name of Monty McCutchen. He's
the head of WNBA officiating. And Sue Blanche who is
the head of referee performance and Development for the league.
And these are people with over two decades of experience,
and they sort of work together with the gms to coaches,
the Bord of Governors to come up with the point
(17:31):
of emphasis for the season. So I think that while
Kathy is getting the main heat because she's the commissioner,
She used to face, we also have to get some
of these other people some heat. What do you think
that and what do you make of the commissioner's statement? Yeah,
I mean I don't really agree with that.
Speaker 2 (17:45):
Like, when you're the head of something, you're the person
who takes the heat. Like you can give them heat
for them not doing their jobs, but at the end
of the day, a CEO the face of the person,
you're the responsible person.
Speaker 1 (17:57):
If someone else.
Speaker 2 (17:57):
Fails under you or they're not doing their job directly,
it's not up to me to go talk to them.
That's up to you to go talk to them. You
get the heat, you get the feedback. So that's just
how it works. And you know, so like if they're
not doing their job properly, then why are you still
employing them?
Speaker 1 (18:14):
You know?
Speaker 2 (18:14):
So I like in terms of that, like Kathy is
the public facing person for the league. This is what
she signed up for, so I don't have a problem
with her getting the heat. If you don't want to
get heat anymore, then you should correct the issue.
Speaker 1 (18:29):
You should listen.
Speaker 2 (18:30):
And it doesn't mean that you're going to agree with
everything they say, but whether those people have a lot
of experience doesn't really matter to me.
Speaker 1 (18:40):
What matters is that.
Speaker 2 (18:41):
The people on the court have a lot of experience,
and they don't. There's no indication that they do.
Speaker 1 (18:48):
And so.
Speaker 2 (18:50):
If they do, then be transparent, show us like what qualifications,
what training, what they go through. A lot of that
stuff is in secrecy. We don't know, you can't find
you have to, you know, so you have to improve that.
So you're going to be criticized until you can demonstrate that,
you know, it's that your refs are qualified to do
their job.
Speaker 1 (19:10):
And so.
Speaker 2 (19:12):
Yeah, I mean that's just sort of my position on that.
On this I don't really like I just don't really
feel that like the officiating is like the main takeaway
for me from yesterday because I just think that was
an example of the FISA saying, like the leadership is
not good, and she brought up many examples from her
(19:33):
perspective of why it's not you know, So in terms
of like Kathy's statement, I agree with you that, like
Kathy did not deny what the FSA said, She said
that in the FISA mischaracterized it essentially, So if that's
what you feel, you had the opportunity to give us
your version of what happened in that statement, and she
(19:55):
did not uh. And also, I just want to be
clear because I think sometimes people hear the word hearsay
and it could have like a kind of loaded or
negative connotation. Hearsay actually means that you can't substantiate something
that was said. So I wouldn't really consider what Nefisa
said as hearsay. That's her version of events, and until
it's refuted, right, or if you were to ask her
(20:18):
more questions about it and she can't provide other information
around it. Kathy basically said it was maybe mischaracterized, so
her version may differ, but her in itself not flat
out denying it.
Speaker 1 (20:31):
Says that some.
Speaker 2 (20:32):
Conversation occurred between them and those topics were touched upon,
whether it was around the same time that they asked
the lead to be a part of Unrival. I don't
really see how that context is relevant to whether Kathy
said these things, you know, Like even if they did
do that, Like, the point is she still said these things,
(20:52):
you know. So to me, it's just like if I
believe Anfisa or if I believe Kathy. Kathy has a
reputation of saying things that are you know, at least
reportedly by players, of saying things that maybe.
Speaker 1 (21:09):
Come off in the wrong way.
Speaker 2 (21:11):
We watched her go on CNBC and she spoke about
the Caitlin and Angel Reyeses rivalry and like she herself said,
her response when asked about it, missed the.
Speaker 1 (21:23):
Mark, right.
Speaker 2 (21:24):
You know, she's sort of totally glossed over the fact
that it's really fueled a.
Speaker 1 (21:29):
Lot of it by racism.
Speaker 2 (21:31):
And then you know, she privately went around to players
apologizing and the league put out this generic statement about
not tolerating racism and that of the nature. But that
was at the end of the season, after a whole
season of players feeling like they were harassed and you know,
subject to certain things had occurred. So to me, that
(21:54):
was the least you could do, and it was like
a little too late that that's my opinion on it.
So as far as Kathy and the job she does,
like a lot of people I know share the sentiment
that like she's turned the league around, and I feel like,
personally it's a low bar, so I don't really the
league was functioning so improperly before. So yeah, she's done
(22:18):
like the basics, and for some people, yeah, they're gonna say, like,
you know, she should be credited for that, that's great.
I don't think she's done enough. I don't think she's
doing enough. I don't think this is a commissioner who
resonates with these players. I don't think that she relates
to them. And like, while yes, her job is really
to serve the Board of Governors and the owners and
to actually serve the the WNBA side, I get that right,
(22:42):
But also when you're in a role like that, if
you don't have the interpersonnel skills to interact with the
people on the other side. Because, yes, her job, especially
in these CBA negotiations, and I know this as a
collective as a as a former labor and employment attorney
who practice in this area, Like, yes, you do want
(23:03):
to get the best deal and get it done for
the side that you are aiding. But if you're combative,
which Kelsey Plumb recently describes things as, if you're combative
and you're condescending to the other side, you're not going
to get a deal done. And part of your job
in going back to the owners and whoever you talk
(23:23):
to is getting them to understand where they may need to,
you know, give a little bit, right, So it's not
just this like hold a hard line and don't do anything.
That's part of what your job is to be and
in between to facilitate getting this done.
Speaker 1 (23:40):
And so if your stance.
Speaker 2 (23:41):
Is they should be grateful and looking down on them
and being condescending and being combative and telling them that
they know business, that's also not going to further the effort,
not for their side and not for the league side.
So this is my observation from the outside looking in.
This is based on what I've seen her say publicly,
(24:03):
where I think she sort of put her foot in
her mouth, and this is just when I do hear
her explain things. I think she says one thing. They
sound like very pr nice statements, right, But I think
behind the scenes she operates differently. Based on the different
reports we've heard, and so you know, I know there
was reporting that potentially she might be leaving when this
is all done. I'm not sure the league put out
(24:24):
a statement saying that's not true. So I don't know
where that stands. But I do think at this stage,
at this time, the league is probably in need of
a leader with a different kind of vision and one
that at least has the ability to connect with the players,
because what I do agree with you on about in
a FISA and what she said, it was unprecedented. We've
never seen anything like this in a league before, in
(24:46):
a sports league, and I feel like all sports media
across the board are saying the same thing. And so
for her to feel like she had to go on
the record and do this to me is a really
big thing. And so, you know, maybe Kathy recovers from it.
I don't know, But if the players are so against you,
I'm just not sure if you can continue to have
that kind of leadership.
Speaker 1 (25:18):
In terms of the negotiations. When we look at what
happened in twenty twenty, that deal didn't get done into
January twenty twenty, and Kathy, two weeks ago she came
on to in case you missed it, and she says
she doesn't expect a deal to get done until January
or February. Well, I do think that the players have
the leverage coming into this CBA negotiation. We know how
(25:42):
hard these things can be, these discussions, and we know
that there's a lot of more meetings to go ahead
of the October thirty first deadline. You did mention the
reporting that came out on Tuesday night, saying from Sports
Business Journal that sources told Sports Business Journal that Kathy
Engelbert pursued departure six years arriving from Deloitte will happen
(26:06):
sometime after the CBA deal is done, and so that's
the timeline now. I spoke to a leak spokesperson who
denied those claims that Kathy Engelbert is preparing to step
down as or resign for her role as commissioner. So
how do you think this moment will impact the CBA negotiations?
(26:28):
Well before in the FESA even made her comments, right,
people asked me if I thought they were headed towards
a lockout, and I was like, yeah, I do, because
on their main issue.
Speaker 2 (26:40):
People have been following the reporting. They were so far apart,
you know, and so but now the FISA puts out
the statement. All the players are not all, but many
of them are coming out in support of her. Asia
Wilson last night, after finally hearing the FISA statement, made
some pretty strong comments after the game, saying she was
disgusted by what Kathy Engelbert reportedly had said.
Speaker 1 (27:04):
So it could if she is a part of the process.
Speaker 2 (27:09):
And now there's already you know, this kind of tension
that's built that can only further frustrate the negotiations, right,
And also you don't know how that like, while this
is just the players speaking out, some of that reporting
from sports business journal or like that, insiders people around
you know, the league, they they do sort of observe
(27:31):
and feel like she may not be the best in
handling the player relations. So if they don't think she's
best at that, like are they going to bring in
a number two, like someone to kind of help facility.
So all those kinds of things can like stall a
process because we don't know that they will. And I'm
not saying, but these are the kinds of things that
can happen, Like if someone is sort of the face
(27:52):
of something or the leader of it or pushing the
negotiations and like they're not progressing, and sometimes you might
want to bring in someone else, but then like that
person now has to get caught up to speed and
you know, and that so you just don't know. And
again I'm not saying that will happen, but I think
that you know, this is only going to add to
some of the struggles maybe that they've been experiencing in the.
Speaker 1 (28:14):
Collective bargaining process.
Speaker 2 (28:16):
You know, like the best outcome would be that like
the owners see you know how united the players are,
or like how fed up they are, and maybe they
relent a little bit. But this is the thing about
like collective bargaining negotiations because you you mentioned that, like
the players have all the leverage right now. Employees always
(28:38):
have all the leverage because businesses can't function without them.
And so I need people to understand that employees always
have all the leverage. Why they will not always get
their demands. Why negotiations break down often is because some
employees may feel like they can't wait it out, they
can't hold on because you have to be really strong
(29:00):
and really not these owners, a lot of them are
rich and like you have to hit them where it's
really hurting them. They can afford to lose some money.
They can, you know, until they really start feeling it.
And so what management it's not just these owners and
the WNBA who are also many of them NBA owners.
Speaker 1 (29:18):
It's not just.
Speaker 2 (29:22):
What management hopes, what they desire, and this is why
many of them hate unions so much, is that the
employees won't be able to stick it out right, that
they won't be able to stay united, that at some
point people are gonna have families to feed, things to do,
and they say like, hey, guys, I want to just settle,
and then like the people who are leading on the
player side start to get pressured like we got to
(29:44):
settle this. I don't want to do this anymore, and
that there's dissension in the ranks. That is what they
bank on. And so then eventually the players end up
signing something they didn't really want or so they feel
like they can wait it out and hold it out.
These are all things that the league and the the
owners can give to the players. They can do this,
they can meet the players. They just don't want to.
(30:06):
And that's what people need to understand. All this talk
around revenue and profit, The NBA was not profitable for
a number of years. And I think the best thing
for people to go back and look at is not
how the NBA is functioning now, but it's to go
back and look at when the players in the NBA
had their own battles to get paid more and what
they had to go through to see it is a
(30:27):
battle because the players didn't.
Speaker 1 (30:29):
The owners didn't want to play them more. They did not.
Speaker 2 (30:32):
But David Stern, as much as people criticize them as
a commissioner, realize, guys, it's not about y'all, it's about
the players, bird Magic, the stars. David Stern realized that
he understood how he had to function as a commissioner.
That helped to get the NBA to the version of
the NBA that we know now.
Speaker 1 (30:54):
But players had to fight, they had to go through
a lot of stuff, and so we've seen this on
some level on the NBA side.
Speaker 2 (31:02):
Plus these women have the added pressure of they are
women athletes their sport, you know, not being respected as much,
just being treated differently, the misogyny, everything else that comes
with it.
Speaker 1 (31:12):
So adding all of that to you know, the things
that the NBA players didn't even have to deal with.
Speaker 2 (31:18):
And so it's going to be really important that the
players stay united, they stay strong. That is going to
be the key in them getting their demands met. But
do I think it's heading to a lockout? I do,
But I think the FISA's comments brought a lot of
visibility to this now and now you're just going to
have more people tuning in we already saw government and
(31:39):
like Congress and whatever, we're already weighing in. I think
it's just going to be more public pressure and what
these women are doing. It's not just for women's basketball,
other leagues, other women's leagues. The WNBA is one of
the most powerful leagues. So whatever they get accomplished will
be a model, it will be present something that others
(32:01):
will try to follow. And so as this continues in
the news cycle and all the attention on it, it's
just going to get bigger. So I do think it's
going to impact the negotiations for sure.
Speaker 1 (32:22):
So the exit meetings these last two weeks have been
quite spicy, but I'm grateful that teams participate in them.
So last week I was able to attend the New
York Liberty's exit meeting, which was an invite only exit
meeting for general manager Jonathan Colbe after the team announced
(32:42):
that they would not renew coach Sandy Broundello's contract in
twenty twenty six, a year after she led the team
to their first title in franchise history. Also go into
back to back finals, but they did see a first
round exit this season. Okay, so there was a lot
that happened at that exit meeting. One It was invite
(33:09):
only right, so its media, trusted media people that they
felt comfortable with inviting. And my overall take from this
meeting was that Jonathan cob felt like Sandy Brundello obviously,
with the actions that follow was not the coach that
would be able to have long term sustainability for the
(33:33):
New York Liberty team. And to me, it felt like
the future of the franchise in terms of style of play,
might be leaning more towards an NBA style type of play,
and that the team is looking to reset, completely open
the field of candidates and hire a new coach, And
(33:56):
to me, I feel like the first falling block I
guess to that strategy was bringing in new assistant coaches,
some with NBA experiences, and Sonya Rahman Andrew Wade as
well bringing in some new coaches on the coaching staff. Now,
Cole did reveal that Olaf Lange, who is an assistant
(34:19):
coach but also Sandy Brundella's husband, he will not return
next season. You can kind of make what you make
out of that, obviously, but he did say that the
team has not yet made a decision on the other
assistant coaches on the staff, and so that sort of
tells me that maybe they're leaning into going to Phoenix
(34:40):
Mercury Route, going to Las Vegas aces Aro Oute, the
two teams that are in the finals who have a
coaching staff made up with coaches, head coaches, assistant coaches
with that NBA experience. Right. One word that he continuously
used throughout his exit meeting was once sustainability, use the
(35:00):
word evolution, evolving, an innovation, adaptability. Those were the buzzwords
from that exit meeting with general manager Jonathan Cole. And
he also confirmed long record that he was considering letting
Sandy go last year, and as the reports confirmed, the championship,
(35:26):
you know, kind of brought her some more time with
the franchise. Okay, so, Johnny cop he took ownership for
not renewing Sandy's contract, focusing on a new vision and
finding a new coach for the New York Liberty. What
was your take from his exit meeting interview.
Speaker 2 (35:48):
Honestly, like it just sounded like a lot of like
you said, buzzwords, a lot of pr talk to me.
You know, oh, look, there's a lot of people who
disagree with me and who see this differently. You know,
they felt they liked his answers, his explanations when explaining
(36:09):
why they didn't let go of Sandy last year.
Speaker 1 (36:13):
He thought it was better to lean into continuity. That
was his explanation for why.
Speaker 2 (36:17):
So even though they were considering it, you know, they
didn't because they wanted to give her another year in continuity.
And also, you know, he made it clear that like
this is not so she did anything bad and you
know whatever, you know that they're just it's like almost
like they're just being proactive, you know.
Speaker 1 (36:34):
And so I think at the end of the day
that like.
Speaker 2 (36:42):
Not renewing the contract or continuing with a coach who
brought the team it's only final, like it's only championship
in the history, has a winning record with them, also
had another finals of parents. You know, to me, Sandy's
(37:05):
done like a tremendous job, you know, and I personally
don't think that she should have lost her role. At
a minimum, I think she should have gotten one more year.
If we're talking about continuity, she didn't have a lot
of continuity. Like she had continuity in the sense that yes,
she stayed, but she didn't have continuity in terms of
her players, but nigelne Hamilton did not play for the
(37:27):
entire season. You brought in Emma Misimon somewhere way through
the season. You had a plethorer of injuries, right, and
so you didn't have your normal rotations.
Speaker 1 (37:38):
And while I will concede that, I.
Speaker 2 (37:40):
Do think the Liberty still underperforms and could have done better.
They didn't have a typical first round matchup because they
fell to five because of the losing, So it's like, yes,
they lost in the first round, but they're playing the
team that is in the WNBA finals, like the Phoenix
Mercury are a very good team them in New York
finished with the same exact record. They are a contender,
(38:02):
and we viewed them as a contender for most of
the season. So that's not the typical first round matchup
that you get. And so there are reasons why they
exited early, you know. And so you had leone playing
out a position most of the season. You know, you
didn't get to use Niarasaboli. So there's just so much
(38:24):
that happened. And then your your your key players all
had injuries that kept them out to various amounts. Your
big three, John Quell Jones, Brianna Stewart, and Sabrina So
if you acknowledge what she did that he thought she
did a great job this year with all you know,
with the hand that she was delivered, then why also
(38:46):
is it then that she can't get another year for continuity?
Speaker 1 (38:51):
You know, to see and you know, to me, when
you're really.
Speaker 2 (38:55):
Questioning, it can't be about the result, because in my opinion,
the result so generally good. So if it's about the process,
and I do think you have to always look at process,
I just.
Speaker 1 (39:08):
Pause a little bit to.
Speaker 2 (39:12):
Critique a coaches process in terms of how they call plays,
their system, they run all those kinds of things.
Speaker 1 (39:21):
I'm hesitant to do that.
Speaker 2 (39:22):
Some people Saynat that you're lying because I'm a known
Warriors fan and I have regularly.
Speaker 1 (39:28):
Critique Steve Kerr. But I do think.
Speaker 2 (39:33):
I do think that doing that is you know, there's
ways to address that, like putting staff on the team
that maybe like fulfills like whatever your vision is.
Speaker 1 (39:44):
And yes, I understand that they do what.
Speaker 2 (39:46):
She did and it did work, but right, right, and
so but like again, we don't know why it didn't work,
and it was like the first year of it, So
I just feel like if you're going to talk about continuity,
continuity to me has to also be about having all
the pieces for what you envisioned, right, Like did this
not work because of all the sort of dysfunction on
(40:07):
the team this year? And I just mean related to
like injuries, not like that they were dysfunctional and you
implemented some new stuff and there were some new coaches
as to the staff, Like was it just so much change?
Speaker 1 (40:18):
Is so much going on?
Speaker 2 (40:20):
Or is this really because Sandy's not an effective coach?
Speaker 1 (40:25):
And you know, we don't know. So it's ultimately at
the end of the day, they decided to move on.
Speaker 2 (40:33):
He said he's going to take as much time as
needed to find her successor so you know, it is
what it is.
Speaker 1 (40:40):
But me personally, I thought she should not have lost
her job. I think she should still be the coach.
Speaker 2 (40:47):
You know, Brianna Stewart had gave a full throated, you know,
support of her on the last game of the season
when asked about those who criticize her or things she
shouldn't keep her job. So I don't know like where
all the players land on it, but at least Brianna
Stewart certainly was supportive of her, So we'll just have
(41:08):
to watch us see how it goes.
Speaker 1 (41:09):
But I am not in agreement with the decision that
was made. Yeah, And to that point, I think that
it's absolutely unfair to judge Sandy on that spectrum. Right,
You've talked about the new roster, the new coaches, having
your core players missed thirteen games a piece, and Branda
Stewart and John Claul Jones inserting Emma Mesa men into
(41:32):
the system halfway through the season. It's absolutely unfair to
judge Sandy within that scope. And I think that one
thing that I noticed or just from my observation, was
there was a lack of accountability from COB's position. Now,
I did ask the question about the culture of the Liberty,
(41:54):
how this ownership and him as a general manager, having
he take accountability for some of the decisions he's made.
He's assumed the role in twenty nineteen. This is going
to be the third head coach and their franchise since
he assumed the role. And Michael vopol pointed out something
very interesting. Michael Voppel said that, you know, when they
(42:15):
hired Walt Walt Right, he was seen as innovative, and
when fourteen he only won what fourteen games over two
seasons fourteen and forty and two seasons. That was a
decision by cope and ownership to put him in that position.
And obviously, you know the reason for his departure was
completely different than Sandy's. But I think that she just
(42:38):
didn't have enough time. And you know, I brought up
Sheerl Reeve in that conversation because she's the only the
Minnesota Link seemed like the only franchise who takes their
time with those in leadership positions, particularly with Cheryl Reeve
as a coach, but also you know, she knows the
executive position. She's been the former GM as well. She's
(43:00):
a proven winner. But it's just like not a lot
of time in the w to adapt an adjust. It's
like a general manager ownership. If they don't like the
way your process works, then you're out. And it's like,
how is that going to be enticing for potential candidates
looking to fill that role, because that's going to be
some huge shoes to fill And obviously the bar is
(43:22):
championship or bust it seems like now with the Liberty,
but Sandy Brundello created that standard. Right her first season,
I think they won what sixteen games? Then they went
thirty two games, thirty two games back to back finals, championship,
and although they did see her first round exit this year, again,
there were so many different factors that went into how
(43:43):
this season played out that, as you mentioned, I would
have loved to see her have some continuity. Now you know,
I know that, Brianna Stewart. I also think that it's
a little bit interesting that a couple of days after
your star player, your franchise player, endorses the head coach
once she's put on the spot after they were eliminated,
(44:06):
she endorses Sandy. She thinks highly. According to multiple sources
of all off Lange, you make the decision then in
exit interviews to say we're not renewing your contract. We're
moving in a different direction. Now we know in twenty
twenty six, all of the whole roster is going to
be unrestricted free agents. They will have Bernajia, Lani Nayara,
(44:29):
and Leoni, but outside of those three players, everyone's a
free agent. So we don't even know if this team
is going to be the same next year. The players
mentioned that they all intend to come back in twenty six.
But a lot can change between now and then, and
I think it all falls on who the next head
coach is going to be, and also if your stars
(44:51):
are going to be happy with the choice that you've made.
And I think that Cob is going to have to
live with his choice, because again, this is going to
be a third coach higher since you've assumed the role
of general manager. And so if that coach doesn't live
up to the expectations of your quote unquote process and
you don't get the results, do you then not renew
(45:12):
their contract and look for the next best thing. That's
where I was getting with it in terms of my
questioning at the conference, because ultimately you put together this
roster and coming into the season, Colb express that his
strategy was to build on being a team of tall players,
(45:33):
players with height and versatility right now. I worked last season,
but it didn't necessarily work this season. And I did
ask him if that's going to be the same strategy
coming into twenty twenty six in terms of roster construction,
and he said yes, So we'll see what he puts
together in terms of the roster. And shout out to
(45:54):
lucas kaplan for also pointing out, you know, s brendan
Escu's numbers going down when she played side Natasha Cloud
versus A Sabrina, I mean versus a Courty Vanders Loup.
But I think that there's a lot of things that
needs to be checked off the box in terms of
the core what did he feel like work this season
versus what's gonna work in twenty twenty six. But I
(46:17):
think the main thing is that coaching hire is going
to make or break him as a general manager and
moving forward well, certainly especially if they don't get past
the first round again. The Dallas Wings have announced that
(46:41):
they will be moving on from head coach Chris Clocanis.
That's not a surprise to me considering how the season
went for the Wings. I think that when you have
a star like Page Beckers, you need to put her
with the best possible coach in the best possible system.
And I feel like he simply wasn't the coach that
(47:04):
was right for her, That wasn't a right pairing. But
what was your reaction to hearing the news?
Speaker 2 (47:09):
Honestly, Christina, I barely had time to process that because
with all the fee news yesterday and we had a
game five that was thrilling but also delaying my ability
to book travel. Now, like I just I you know,
I'm not surprised, a little surprised, only because I think
I haven't reported that they were gonna, you know, keep
(47:32):
their head coach, and look, a team can make a
change at any time, so maybe they just changed their
mind and that's okay, that's their right to do it.
So you know, like again, I in a first season,
I'm never like a fan to just be like a
coach isn't good, you know, especially because Dallas also like
(47:53):
they had a lot of injuries. I mean, of the
teams they they were just decimated like in a way
that other teams weren't.
Speaker 1 (48:01):
And so you know, did he do his best? I
don't know.
Speaker 2 (48:05):
I don't know the man, and at times some of
his players did defend him, so you know, I don't know,
but like I'm not it's not it wasn't a long
enough commitment.
Speaker 1 (48:14):
He didn't do enough for me to be like he
should still get another.
Speaker 2 (48:16):
Chance, you know, And I think I think here probably
maybe the players really informed that and so.
Speaker 1 (48:24):
Like not just like oh like cause Page.
Speaker 2 (48:26):
Doesn't strike me as the kind of person go be
like get rid of this coach anyway, Like that doesn't
like seem like her personality. But maybe you know, look,
Kurt Miller has been a coach himself, so maybe from
what he's observed and maybe feedback that he received from
the different players, maybe all of that like informed his decision.
Speaker 1 (48:42):
Is like maybe we just need to, you know, move
in a different direction.
Speaker 2 (48:45):
So I'm sure at some point we'll hear more about
why they decided to like move on. Not as surprising,
but just you know, just all right, Dallas, come on
like it just the news cycle is too much today.
Speaker 1 (48:56):
Can't can't, can't deal with another thing for y'all. Well,
that brings the total number of coaching vacancies to five
now after the Wings announced the dismissal of Chris Cloclennis.
So theF Seattle, New York, Dallas, Toronto, and Portland all
looking for head coaches. All right, let's get down to
the nitty gritty and the recent why we are here.
(49:17):
We have the Battle of the Desert. The Las Vegas
Aces advanced after beating the Indiana Fever in overtime and
they will face Phoenix Mercury's Big Three and it all
goes down this Friday in Las Vegas. Now, I think
that this, considering you know, the teams that were limited,
(49:38):
were the best possible matchukes. And I set this on
our NBC segment earlier this week. I don't I have
go on with used my preseason prediction as bulletin material,
but I have redeemed myself in segments after and saying
that I did not expect the Mercury to get to
the finals. Y'all. I did not expect it in the preseason,
(50:00):
saying that they are not gonna win anything. Clip it.
I was talking about cast shit, and they proved me wrong.
But I think to that point, we finally had the
opportunity to see Phoenix's big three at full strength. And
then who could have ever predicted that Dewana Barna was
going to leave the Fever mid season and be such
(50:20):
a help off the bench for the Phoenix Mercury Sammy
Witcomb as well. This is a team with a lot
of experiences. They've been to the finals. They have a
combined eight appearances in the finals, that combined five WNBA championships.
When you look at the roster makeup, and so this
is the experienced team and then they face Asian Wilson,
(50:43):
four time MVP. Now, to me, I think that Phoenix
when I look at it that way of experience and
the build up, I feel like Phoenix can probably pull
this off in a seven game series against the Aces.
Considering the Aces path to the championship that we talked
about earlier, Natalie, they had you mentioned maybe I'm confusing
(51:06):
our sides, but they you mentioned that before prior to me,
that you know, you felt they had the easiest path
to getting to the finals, and I feel like they've
struggled in every round to get here, and it's because
of the inconsistencies across the board. What are some key
factors in this finals matchup that you're going to be
looking out for. Yeah, And just so.
Speaker 2 (51:29):
People understand what I mean when I say like the
easier path, it's not that it's easy.
Speaker 1 (51:35):
It's easier as.
Speaker 2 (51:36):
In, you're not playing the reigning champs in the Liberty
and you're not having to face the Minnesota Links. At
the time, we're the number one team. So that's just
kind of basic bracketology, right, Like you want to stay
on the other side of the bracket and one that
could potentially afford you to get like as you know,
(51:57):
so that that's more than what it was. But even
before both of Vegas's games, when I did my previews
for those series, I was like, Seattle's going to challenge Vegas.
Like Seattle, yes, as an inconsistent team and their wonky,
but they have great players on their team, and the
Fever have been a bad matchup for the Aces all season.
Speaker 1 (52:16):
So it's not really that shocking that that.
Speaker 2 (52:20):
Game went the way that it did because they are
one of the few teams that has a player that
can give Asia Wilson a hard time and Alia Boston,
you know, so if look, Vegas only played one more
game than the Mercury had to get there, so it's
not like the Mercury just dominated their way like to.
Speaker 1 (52:43):
The finals.
Speaker 2 (52:43):
So I mean, I actually think these teams are pretty even.
I don't think the Mercury are as hard of a
matchup for Vegas as as the Fever were. So I
think it's important that people don't look at seeding here,
but you look at matchups how the teams match. Indy
is a bad matchup for Vegas, Phoenix is a more
(53:05):
reasonable matchup for them, And so.
Speaker 1 (53:08):
I think the series is a pick up, I really do.
Speaker 2 (53:11):
I've been going back and forth about who I would
pick to win, and I just don't know. And no
matter who I pick, each team is gonna say, oh,
you like, no one believed in us.
Speaker 1 (53:20):
That's the acest thing.
Speaker 2 (53:21):
And you know, Phoenix side, they've been going on and
on about you didn't pick us, you didn't pick us,
And it's just like, do you really want to pick
against the team that has the best player in the
world in Asia Wilson with the way Jackie Young has
been playing next to her, and they have home court advantage?
Do I want to pick against the team that's won
two of the last three championships?
Speaker 1 (53:41):
You know, Like, do you want to pick against that?
I don't?
Speaker 2 (53:45):
But then do I want to pick against Alisa Thomas
and Satu and Khalia Copper and this big three that
they formed and that that stingy Mercury defense.
Speaker 1 (53:56):
You know, they are a very very good team.
Speaker 2 (54:01):
And so like the way that I felt about the
Liberty and the Mercury, I feel about this not the
Mercury and said, but yeah, no, Liberty and Mercury when
they played, I thought that was a pick them. I
think this is a pick them, so I think it's
going the distance. No matter who I pick, it's going
to be disrespecting the other. I will say this if
it gets to game seven. If it gets to a
(54:22):
game seven, I think if the Mercury are going to
win this series, and I think they're very capable of
winning this series, they got to do it in six.
I do not think if it gets to a game
seven on Vegas's home court, I know they're capable of winning,
I don't think they will win. So I'm hedging, and
I'm doing the cowardly thing, and I'm gonna say it's
either Mercury in six or it's Vegas and seven. I
(54:43):
do not That's how I see it going either way.
I could be completely wrong. I need more time to
think about this, but I'm just not sure about this matchup.
It's worth noting, though, that Las Vegas did win the
regular season series between the two teams.
Speaker 1 (54:59):
Yeah, and as you mentioned, I'm not gonna put a
prediction out there because it's just so unpredictable and there's
so many factors that go into predicting who's gonna win
who's not gonna win. Health is a huge part of it.
We saw in that series against Indiana Kelsey Mitchell cramped
up and think we think the basketball gods that it
(55:22):
wasn't something more serious, right, But you know, going into
this it's not only extended season, but extended playoffs. Now
that health is going to play a major factor this
deep into the playoffs. And so I like that Phoenix
had peaked at the right time. And if we go
according to their first two series matchups, game ones aren't
(55:45):
very favorable for them or sat too Saboly, but they've
been able to rest and I think that that will
give them an advantage going into game one of the
of the finals, and I expect them to continue to
have that momentum. They're starting to click all cylinders. We're
seeing Demanta Bomber have some big moments. You see her
experience really come through off the bench. I think people
(56:07):
forget that before dB was a starter, she won multiple
six Player of the Year. So this she's not new,
She's true to this, she ain't new to this. She's
treated this when it comes to providing what she can
off the bench. And then Sammy wickcomb My, oh my,
she's been having a phenomenal playoff series being able to
provide three point shooting, being able to get some steals
(56:29):
in the passing lane for the Phoenix Mercury as well.
So I think that if they can continue to roll,
I have Phoenix coming out of this. But again, you
don't want to bet against the four time MVP and
Asian Wilson and a franchise that's won two of the
last three WNBA championships, as you mentioned. And so with that, Natalie,
(56:49):
we're just gonna keep our eyes tuned in the WNBA Finals.
They tip off on Friday in Las Vegas. Natalie Esquire,
thank you for joining us this week on and Casey
missed it, thank you all right, that's gonna do it
for this episode of In Case You Missed It with
Christina Williams. Don't forget to rate, review and subscribe to
(57:10):
the podcast and we'll see you next time. In Case
You Missed It with Christina Williams is an iHeart women's
sports production in partnership with Deep Blue Sports and Entertainment.
You can find us on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,
or wherever you get your podcasts.